alt.atheism	alt atheism faq atheist resources archive name atheism resources alt atheism archive name resources last modified december version atheist resources addresses atheist organizations usa freedom from religion foundation darwin fish bumper stickers and assorted other atheist paraphernalia are available from the freedom from religion foundation the write ffrf box madison telephone evolution designs evolution designs sell the darwin fish fish symbol like the ones christians stick their cars but with feet and the word darwin written inside the deluxe moulded plastic fish postpaid the write evolution designs laurel canyon north hollywood people the san francisco bay area can get darwin fish from lynn gold try mailing figmo netcom com for net people who lynn directly the price per fish american atheist press aap publish various atheist books critiques the bible lists biblical contradictions and one such book the bible handbook ball and foote american atheist press isbn edition bible contradictions absurdities atrocities immoralities contains ball foote the bible contradicts itself aap based the king james version the bible write american atheist press box austin cameron road austin telephone fax prometheus books sell books including haught holy horrors see below write east amherst street buffalo new york telephone alternate address which may newer older prometheus books glenn drive buffalo african americans for humanism organization promoting black secular humanism and uncovering the history black freethought they publish quarterly newsletter aah examiner write norm allen african americans for humanism box buffalo united kingdom rationalist press association national secular society islington high street holloway road london london british humanist association south place ethical society lamb conduit passage conway hall london red lion square london fax the national secular society publish the freethinker monthly magazine founded germany ibka internationaler bund der konfessionslosen und atheisten postfach berlin germany ibka publish journal miz materialien und informationen zur zeit politisches journal der konfessionslosesn und atheisten hrsg ibka miz vertrieb postfach berlin germany for atheist books write ibdk internationaler ucherdienst der konfessionslosen postfach hannover germany telephone books fiction thomas disch the santa claus compromise short story the ultimate proof that santa exists all characters and events are fictitious any similarity living dead gods well walter miller canticle for leibowitz one gem this post atomic doomsday novel the monks who spent their lives copying blueprints from saint leibowitz filling the sheets paper with ink and leaving white lines and letters edgar pangborn davy post atomic doomsday novel set clerical states the church for example forbids that anyone produce describe use any substance containing atoms philip dick philip dick dick wrote many philosophical and thought provoking short stories and novels his stories are bizarre times but very approachable wrote mainly but wrote about people truth and religion rather than technology although often believed that had met some sort god remained sceptical amongst his novels the following are some relevance galactic pot healer fallible alien deity summons group earth craftsmen and women remote planet raise giant cathedral from beneath the oceans when the deity begins demand faith from the earthers pot healer joe fernwright unable comply polished ironic and amusing novel maze death noteworthy for its description technology based religion valis the schizophrenic hero searches for the hidden mysteries gnostic christianity after reality fired into his brain pink laser beam unknown but possibly divine origin accompanied his dogmatic and dismissively atheist friend and assorted other odd characters the divine invasion god invades earth making young woman pregnant she returns from another star system unfortunately she terminally ill and must assisted dead man whose brain wired hour easy listening music margaret atwood the handmaid tale story based the premise that the congress mysteriously assassinated and fundamentalists quickly take charge the nation set right again the book the diary woman life she tries live under the new christian theocracy women right own property revoked and their bank accounts are closed sinful luxuries are outlawed and the radio only used for readings from the bible crimes are punished retroactively doctors who performed legal abortions the old world are hunted down and hanged atwood writing style difficult get used first but the tale grows more and more chilling goes various authors the bible this somewhat dull and rambling work has often been criticized however probably worth reading only that you know what all the fuss about exists many different versions make sure you get the one true version books non fiction peter rosa vicars christ bantam press although rosa seems christian even catholic this very enlighting history papal immoralities adulteries fallacies etc german translation gottes erste diener die dunkle seite des papsttums droemer knaur michael martin atheism philosophical justification temple university press philadelphia usa detailed and scholarly justification atheism contains outstanding appendix defining terminology and usage this necessarily tendentious area argues both for negative atheism the non belief the existence god and also for positive atheism the belief the non existence god includes great refutations the most challenging arguments for god particular attention paid refuting contempory theists such platinga and swinburne pages isbn hardcover paperback also available the case against christianity temple university press comprehensive critique christianity which considers the best contemporary defences christianity and ultimately demonstrates that they are unsupportable and incoherent pages isbn james turner without god without creed the johns hopkins university press baltimore usa subtitled the origins unbelief america examines the way which unbelief whether agnostic atheistic became mainstream alternative world view focusses the period and while considering france and britain the emphasis american and particularly new england developments neither religious history secularization atheism without god without creed rather the intellectual history the fate single idea the belief that god exists pages isbn hardcover paper george seldes editor the great thoughts ballantine books new york usa dictionary quotations different kind concentrating statements and writings which explicitly implicitly present the person philosophy and world view includes obscure and often suppressed opinions from many people for some popular observations traces the way which various people expressed and twisted the idea over the centuries quite number the quotations are derived from cardiff what great men think religion and noyes views religion pages isbn paper richard swinburne the existence god revised edition clarendon paperbacks oxford this book the second volume trilogy that began with the coherence theism and was concluded with faith and reason this work swinburne attempts construct series inductive arguments for the existence god his arguments which are somewhat tendentious and rely upon the imputation late century western christian values and aesthetics god which supposedly simple can conceived were decisively rejected mackie the miracle theism the revised edition the existence god swinburne includes appendix which makes somewhat incoherent attempt rebut mackie mackie the miracle theism oxford this posthumous volume contains comprehensive review the principal arguments for and against the existence god ranges from the classical philosophical positions descartes anselm berkeley hume through the moral arguments newman kant and sidgwick the recent restatements the classical theses plantinga and swinburne also addresses those positions which push the concept god beyond the realm the rational such those kierkegaard kung and philips well replacements for god such lelie axiarchism the book delight read less formalistic and better written than martin works and refreshingly direct when compared with the hand waving swinburne james haught holy horrors illustrated history religious murder and madness prometheus books looks religious persecution from ancient times the present day and not only christians library congress catalog card number norm allen african american humanism anthology see the listing for african americans for humanism above gordon stein anthology atheism and rationalism prometheus books anthology covering wide range subjects including the devil evil and morality and the history freethought comprehensive bibliography edmund cohen the mind the bible believer prometheus books study why people become christian fundamentalists and what effect has them net resources there small mail based archive server mantis which carries archives old alt atheism moderated articles and assorted other files for more information send mail archive server mantis saying help send atheism index and will mail back reply mathew
alt.atheism	alt atheism faq introduction atheism archive name atheism introduction alt atheism archive name introduction last modified april version begin pgp signed message introduction atheism mathew mathew mantis this article attempts provide general introduction atheism whilst have tried neutral possible regarding contentious issues you should always remember that this document represents only one viewpoint would encourage you read widely and draw your own conclusions some relevant books are listed companion article provide sense cohesion and progression have presented this article imaginary conversation between atheist and theist all the questions asked the imaginary theist are questions which have been cropped repeatedly alt atheism since the newsgroup was created some other frequently asked questions are answered companion article please note that this article arguably slanted towards answering questions posed from christian viewpoint this because the faq files reflect questions which have actually been asked and predominantly christians who proselytize alt atheism when talk religion talking primarily about religions such christianity judaism and islam which involve some sort superhuman divine being much the discussion will apply other religions but some may not what atheism atheism characterized absence belief the existence god some atheists further and believe that god does not exist the former often referred the weak atheist position and the latter strong atheism important note the difference between these two positions weak atheism simple scepticism disbelief the existence god strong atheism positive belief that god does not exist please not fall into the trap assuming that all atheists are strong atheists some atheists believe the non existence all gods others limit their atheism specific gods such the christian god rather than making flat out denials but isn disbelieving god the same thing believing doesn exist definitely not disbelief proposition means that one does not believe true not believing that something true not equivalent believing that false one may simply have idea whether true not which brings agnosticism what agnosticism then the term agnosticism was coined professor huxley meeting the metaphysical society defined agnostic someone who disclaimed strong atheism and believed that the ultimate origin things must some cause unknown and unknowable thus agnostic someone who believes that not and cannot know for sure whether god exists words are slippery things and language inexact beware assuming that you can work out someone philosophical point view simply from the fact that she calls herself atheist agnostic for example many people use agnosticism mean weak atheism and use the word atheism only when referring strong atheism beware also that because the word atheist has many shades meaning very difficult generalize about atheists about all you can say for sure that atheists don believe god for example certainly isn the case that all atheists believe that science the best way find out about the universe what the philosophical justification basis for atheism there are many philosophical justifications for atheism find out why particular person chooses atheist best ask her many atheists feel that the idea god presented the major religions essentially self contradictory and that logically impossible that such god could exist others are atheists through scepticism because they see evidence that god exists but isn impossible prove the non existence something there are many counter examples such statement for example quite simple prove that there does not exist prime number larger than all other prime numbers course this deals with well defined objects obeying well defined rules whether gods universes are similarly well defined matter for debate however assuming for the moment that the existence god not provably impossible there are still subtle reasons for assuming the non existence god assume that something does not exist always possible show that this assumption invalid finding single counter example the other hand assume that something does exist and the thing question not provably impossible showing that the assumption invalid may require exhaustive search all possible places where such thing might found show that isn there such exhaustive search often impractical impossible there such problem with largest primes because can prove that they don exist therefore generally accepted that must assume things not exist unless have evidence that they even theists follow this rule most the time they don believe unicorns even though they can conclusively prove that unicorns exist anywhere assume that god exists make assumption which probably cannot tested cannot make exhaustive search everywhere god might prove that doesn exist anywhere the sceptical atheist assumes default that god does not exist since that assumption can test those who profess strong atheism usually not claim that sort god exists instead they generally restrict their claims cover varieties god described followers various religions whilst may impossible prove conclusively that god exists may possible prove that say god described particular religious book does not exist may even possible prove that god described any present day religion exists practice believing that god described any religion exists very close believing that god exists however sufficiently different that counter arguments based the impossibility disproving every kind god are not really applicable but what god essentially non detectable god interacts with our universe any way the effects his interaction must measurable hence his interaction with our universe must detectable god essentially non detectable must therefore the case that does not interact with our universe any way many atheists would argue that god does not interact with our universe all importance whether exists not the bible believed god was easily detectable the israelites surely should still detectable today note that not demanding that god interact scientifically verifiable physical way must surely possible perceive some effect caused his presence though otherwise how can distinguish him from all the other things that don exist you may think there philosophical justification for atheism but isn still religious belief one the most common pastimes philosophical discussion the redefinition game the cynical view this game follows person begins making contentious statement when person points out that can true person gradually defines the words used the statement until arrives something person prepared accept then records the statement along with the fact that person has agreed and continues eventually uses the statement agreed fact but uses his original definitions all the words rather than the obscure redefinitions originally needed get agree rather than seen apparently inconsistent will tend play along the point this digression that the answer the question isn atheism religious belief depends crucially upon what meant religious religion generally characterized belief superhuman controlling power especially some sort god and faith and worship worth pointing out passing that some varieties buddhism are not religion according such definition atheism certainly not belief any sort superhuman power nor categorized worship any meaningful sense widening the definition religious encompass atheism tends result many other aspects human behaviour suddenly becoming classed religious well such science politics and watching not religion but surely belief atheism science still just act faith like religion firstly not entirely clear that sceptical atheism something one actually believes secondly necessary adopt number core beliefs assumptions make some sort sense out the sensory data experience most atheists try adopt few core beliefs possible and even those are subject questioning experience throws them into doubt science has number core assumptions for example generally assumed that the laws physics are the same for all observers these are the sort core assumptions atheists make such basic ideas are called acts faith then almost everything know must said based acts faith and the term loses its meaning faith more often used refer complete certain belief something according such definition atheism and science are certainly not acts faith course individual atheists scientists can dogmatic religious followers when claiming that something certain this not general tendency however there are many atheists who would reluctant state with certainty that the universe exists faith also used refer belief without supporting evidence proof sceptical atheism certainly doesn fit that definition sceptical atheism has beliefs strong atheism closer but still doesn really match even the most dogmatic atheist will tend refer experimental data the lack when asserting that god does not exist atheism not religious surely anti religious unfortunate human tendency label everyone either for against friend enemy the truth not clear cut atheism the position that runs logically counter theism that sense can said anti religion however when religious believers speak atheists being anti religious they usually mean that the atheists have some sort antipathy hatred towards theists this categorization atheists hostile towards religion quite unfair atheist attitudes towards theists fact cover broad spectrum most atheists take live and let live attitude unless questioned they will not usually mention their atheism except perhaps close friends course this may part because atheism not socially acceptable many countries few atheists are quite anti religious and may even try convert others when possible historically such anti religious atheists have made little impact society outside the eastern bloc countries digress slightly the soviet union was originally dedicated separation church and state just like the usa soviet citizens were legally free worship they wished the institution state atheism came about when stalin took control the soviet union and tried destroy the churches order gain complete power over the population some atheists are quite vocal about their beliefs but only where they see religion encroaching matters which are not its business for example the government the usa such individuals are usually concerned that church and state should remain separate but you don allow religion have say the running the state surely that the same state atheism the principle the separation church and state that the state shall not legislate concerning matters religious belief particular means not only that the state cannot promote one religion the expense another but also that cannot promote any belief which religious nature religions can still have say discussion purely secular matters for example religious believers have historically been responsible for encouraging many political reforms even today many organizations campaigning for increase spending foreign aid are founded religious campaigns long they campaign concerning secular matters and long they not discriminate religious grounds most atheists are quite happy see them have their say what about prayer schools there god why you care people pray because people who pray are voters and lawmakers and tend things that those who don pray can just ignore also christian prayer schools intimidating non christians even they are told that they need not join the diversity religious and non religious belief means that impossible formulate meaningful prayer that will acceptable all those present any public event also non prayers tend have friends and family who pray reasonable care about friends and family wasting their time even without other motives you mentioned christians who campaign for increased foreign aid what about atheists why aren there any atheist charities hospitals don atheists object the religious charities there are many charities without religious purpose that atheists can contribute some atheists contribute religious charities well for the sake the practical good they some atheists even voluntary work for charities founded theistic basis most atheists seem feel that atheism isn worth shouting about connection with charity them atheism just simple obvious everyday matter and charity many feel that somewhat cheap not say self righteous use simple charity excuse plug particular set religious beliefs weak atheists building hospital say not believe god rather strange idea rather like holding party say today not birthday why the fuss atheism rarely evangelical you said atheism isn anti religious but perhaps backlash against one upbringing way rebelling perhaps for some but many people have parents who not attempt force any religious atheist ideas upon them and many those people choose call themselves atheists also doubtless the case that some religious people chose religion backlash against atheist upbringing way being different the other hand many people choose religion way conforming the expectations others the whole can conclude much about whether atheism religion are backlash conformism although general people have tendency along with group rather than act think independently how atheists differ from religious people they don believe god that all there atheists may listen heavy metal backwards even they may prefer verdi requiem even they know the words they may wear hawaiian shirts they may dress all black they may even wear orange robes many buddhists lack belief any sort god some atheists even carry copy the bible around for arguing against course whoever you are the chances are you have met several atheists without realising atheists are usually unexceptional behaviour and appearance unexceptional but aren atheists less moral than religious people that depends you define morality obedience god then course atheists are less moral they don obey any god but usually when one talks morality one talks what acceptable right and unacceptable wrong behaviour within society humans are social animals and maximally successful they must operate with each other this good enough reason discourage most atheists from anti social immoral behaviour purely for the purposes self preservation many atheists behave moral compassionate way simply because they feel natural tendency empathize with other humans why they care what happens others they don know they simply are that way naturally there are some people who behave immorally and try use atheism justify their actions however there are equally many people who behave immorally and then try use religious beliefs justify their actions for example here trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance jesus christ came into the world save sinners but for that very reason was shown mercy that jesus christ might display his unlimited patience example for those who would believe him and receive eternal life now the king eternal immortal invisible the only god honor and glory forever and ever the above quote from statement made the court february jeffrey dahmer the notorious cannibal serial killer milwaukee wisconsin seems that for every atheist mass murderer there religious mass murderer but what more trivial morality survey conducted the roper organization found that behavior deteriorated after born again experiences while only respondents said they had driven intoxicated before being born again had done after conversion similarly had used illegal drugs before conversion after two percent admitted engaging illicit sex before salvation after freethought today september seems that best religion does not have monopoly moral behaviour there such thing atheist morality you mean there such thing morality for atheists then the answer yes explained above many atheists have ideas about morality which are least strong those held religious people you mean does atheism have characteristic moral code then the answer atheism itself does not imply anything much about how person will behave most atheists follow many the same moral rules theists but for different reasons atheists view morality something created humans according the way humans feel the world ought work rather than seeing set rules decreed supernatural being then aren atheists just theists who are denying god study the freedom from religion foundation found that over the atheists who responded became atheists because religion did not work for them they had found that religious beliefs were fundamentally incompatible with what they observed around them atheists are not unbelievers through ignorance denial they are unbelievers through choice the vast majority them have spent time studying one more religions sometimes very great depth they have made careful and considered decision reject religious beliefs this decision may course inevitable consequence that individual personality for naturally sceptical person the choice atheism often the only one that makes sense and hence the only choice that person can honestly make but don atheists want believe god atheists live their lives though there nobody watching over them many them have desire watched over matter how good natured the big brother figure might some atheists would like able believe god but what should one believe things merely because one wants them true the risks such approach should obvious atheists often decide that wanting believe something not enough there must evidence for the belief but course atheists see evidence for the existence god they are unwilling their souls see many not most atheists were previously religious has been explained above the vast majority have seriously considered the possibility that god exists many atheists have spent time prayer trying reach god course true that some atheists lack open mind but assuming that all atheists are biased and insincere offensive and closed minded comments such course god there you just aren looking properly are likely viewed patronizing certainly you wish engage philosophical debate with atheists vital that you give them the benefit the doubt and assume that they are being sincere they say that they have searched for god you are not willing believe that they are basically telling the truth debate futile isn the whole life completely pointless atheist many atheists live purposeful life they decide what they think gives meaning life and they pursue those goals they try make their lives count not wishing for eternal life but having influence other people who will live for example atheist may dedicate his life political reform the hope leaving his mark history natural human tendency look for meaning purpose random events however means obvious that life the sort thing that has meaning put another way not everything which looks like question actually sensible thing ask some atheists believe that asking what the meaning life silly asking what the meaning cup coffee they believe that life has purpose meaning just how atheists find comfort time danger there are many ways obtaining comfort from family friends even pets less spiritual level from food drink that may sound rather empty and vulnerable way face danger but what should individuals believe things because they are comforting should they face reality matter how harsh might the end decision for the individual concerned most atheists are unable believe something they would not otherwise believe merely because makes them feel comfortable they put truth before comfort and consider that searching for truth sometimes makes them feel unhappy that just hard luck don atheists worry that they might suddenly shown wrong the short answer you many atheists have been atheists for years they have encountered many arguments and much supposed evidence for the existence god but they have found all invalid inconclusive thousands years religious belief haven resulted any good proof the existence god atheists therefore tend feel that they are unlikely proved wrong the immediate future and they stop worrying about why should theists question their beliefs don the same arguments apply because the beliefs being questioned are not similar weak atheism the sceptical default position take asserts nothing strong atheism negative belief theism very strong positive belief atheists sometimes also argue that theists should question their beliefs because the very real harm they can cause not just the believers but everyone else what sort harm religion represents huge financial and work burden mankind not just matter religious believers wasting their money church buildings think all the time and effort spent building churches praying and imagine how that effort could better spent many theists believe miracle healing there have been plenty instances ill people being healed priest ceasing take the medicines prescribed them doctors and dying result some theists have died because they have refused blood transfusions religious grounds arguable that the catholic church opposition birth control and condoms particular increasing the problem overpopulation many third world countries and contributing the spread aids world wide religious believers have been known murder their children rather than allow their children become atheists marry someone different religion those weren real believers they just claimed believers some sort excuse what makes real believer there are many one true religions hard tell look christianity there are many competing groups all convinced that they are the only true christians sometimes they even fight and kill each other how atheist supposed decide who real christian and who isn when even the major christian churches like the catholic church and the church england can decide amongst themselves the end most atheists take pragmatic view and decide that anyone who calls himself christian and uses christian belief dogma justify his actions should considered christian maybe some those christians are just perverting christian teaching for their own ends but surely the bible can readily used support christian acts can much moral code the bible the word god why couldn have made less easy misinterpret and how you know that your beliefs aren perversion what your god intended there single unambiguous interpretation the bible then why should atheist take one interpretation over another just your say sorry but someone claims that believes jesus and that murdered others because jesus and the bible told him must call him christian obviously those extreme sorts beliefs should questioned but since nobody has ever proved that god does not exist must very unlikely that more basic religious beliefs shared all faiths are nonsense that does not hold because was pointed out the start this dialogue positive assertions concerning the existence entities are inherently much harder disprove than negative ones nobody has ever proved that unicorns don exist but that doesn make unlikely that they are myths therefore much more valid hold negative assertion default than hold positive assertion default course weak atheists would argue that asserting nothing better still well atheism great why are there many theists unfortunately the popularity belief has little with how correct whether works consider how many people believe astrology graphology and other pseudo sciences many atheists feel that simply human weakness want believe gods certainly many primitive human societies religion allows the people deal with phenomena that they not adequately understand course there more religion than that the industrialized world find people believing religious explanations phenomena even when there are perfectly adequate natural explanations religion may have started means attempting explain the world but nowadays serves other purposes well but many cultures have developed religions surely that must say something not really most religions are only superficially similar for example worth remembering that religions such buddhism and taoism lack any sort concept god the christian sense course most religions are quick denounce competing religions rather odd use one religion try and justify another what about all the famous scientists and philosophers who have concluded that god exists for every scientist philosopher who believes god there one who does not besides has already been pointed out the truth belief not determined how many people believe also important realize that atheists not view famous scientists philosophers the same way that theists view their religious leaders famous scientist only human she may expert some fields but when she talks about other matters her words carry special weight many respected scientists have made themselves look foolish speaking subjects which lie outside their fields expertise are you really saying that widespread belief religion indicates nothing not entirely certainly indicates that the religion question has properties which have helped spread far the theory memetics talks memes sets ideas which can propagate themselves between human minds analogy with genes some atheists view religions sets particularly successful parasitic memes which spread encouraging their hosts convert others some memes avoid destruction discouraging believers from questioning doctrine using peer pressure keep one time believers from admitting that they were mistaken some religious memes even encourage their hosts destroy hosts controlled other memes course the memetic view there particular virtue associated with successful propagation meme religion not good thing because the number people who believe any more than disease good thing because the number people who have caught even religion not entirely true least puts across important messages what are the fundamental messages atheism there are many important ideas atheists promote the following are just few them don surprised see ideas which are also present some religions there more moral behaviour than mindlessly following rules especially sceptical positive claims you want your life have some sort meaning you find search for what true even makes you uncomfortable make the most your life probably the only one you have good relying some external power change you you must change yourself just because something popular doesn mean good you must assume something assume something easy test don believe things just because you want them true and finally and most importantly all beliefs should open question thanks for taking the time read this article mathew for information about pgp send mail pgpinfo mantis
alt.atheism	gospel dating article mimsy umd edu mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes well john has quite different not necessarily more elaborated theology there some evidence that must have known luke and that the content was known him but not canonized form this new argument could you elaborate little the argument goes follows oid quotes appear john but not the almost codified way they were matthew luke however they are considered similar enough point knowledge such and not entirely different source assuming that knew luke would obviously put him after luke and would give evidence for the latter assumption don think this follows you take the most traditional attributions then luke might have known john but john elder figure either case talking spans time here which are well within the range lifetimes are talking date texts here not the age the authors the usual explanation for the time order mark matthew and luke does not consider their respective ages says matthew has read the text mark and luke that matthew and probably that mark assumed that john knew the content luke text the evidence for that not overwhelming admittedly earlier manuscripts john have been discovered interesting where and which how are they dated how old are they unfortunately haven got the info hand was think the late early and was possibly old when they are from about why they shed doubt the order putting john after the rest the three don see your point exactly what james felder said they had first hand knowledge the events and obvious that least two them used older texts the base their account and even the association luke paul mark peter are not generally accepted well genuine letter peter would close enough wouldn sure original together with card sender and receiver would fine what that supposed say missing something and don think one step removed source that bad luke and mark and matthew learned their stories directly from diciples then really cannot believe the sort big transformation from jesus gospel that some people posit news reports one generally gets better information than this and john diciple then there nothing more said that john was disciple not generally accepted the style and language together with the theology are usually used counterargument the argument that john was disciple relies the claim the gospel john itself there any other evidence for one step and one generation removed bad even our times compare that reports similar events our century almost illiterate societies not even speak off that believers are not necessarily the best sources also obvious that mark has been edited how old are the oldest manuscripts knowledge which can antiquated the oldest quite after any these estimates and not even complete the only clear editing problem the ending and basically hopeless mess the oldest versions give strong sense incompleteness the point where the shortest versions seem break off midsentence the most obvious solution that some point part the text was lost the material from verse pretty clearly later and seems represent synopsys the end luke other words one does not know what the original mark did look like and arguments based mark are pretty weak but how that connected redating john benedikt
alt.atheism	university violating separation church state dmn kepler unh edu until kings become philosophers philosophers become kings writes recently ras have been ordered and none have resisted cared about apparently post religious flyer entitled the soul scroll thoughts religion spirituality and matters the soul the inside bathroom stall doors school the university new hampshire some sort newsletter assembled hall director somewhere campus poses question about spirituality each issue and solicits responses included the next issue all pretty vague assume put out christian but they very careful not mention jesus the bible heard someone defend saying well doesn support any one religion what this state university and strong supporter the separation church and state was enraged what can about this sounds like just screaming out for parody give copy your friendly neighbourhood subgenius preacher with luck run through the mental mincer and hand you back outrageously offensive and gut bustingly funny parody you can paste over the originals can see now the stool scroll thoughts religion spirituality and matters the colon you can use this text wipe mathew
alt.atheism	soc motss princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts article apr harder ccr ida org harder ccr ida org bob mcgwier writes however hate economic terrorism and political correctness worse than hate this policy more effective approach stop donating any organizating that directly indirectly supports gay rights issues until they end the boycott funding scouts can somebody reconcile the apparent contradiction between and rob strom strom watson ibm com ibm research saw mill river road box yorktown heights
alt.atheism	visit from the jehovah witnesses article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes didn you say lucifer was created with perfect nature yes define perfect then think you are playing the usual game here make sweeping statements like omni holy perfect and don note that they mean exactly what they say and that says that you must not use this terms when leads contradictions not trying play games here but understand how might seem that way especially when one coming from completely different point view such atheism take your foot out your mouth wondered about that already when was catholic christian the fact that the contradiction unresolvable one the reasons why atheist believe believed similar sentences for long time but that shows the power religion and not anything about its claims now god could have prevented lucifer fall taking away his ability choose between moral alternatives worship god worship himself but that would mean that god was error have make lucifer any being with free will the first place exactly god allows evil evil there ever was one now that opinion best premise but from point view not premise which necessary true specifically that evil allow evil occur follows from definition evil ordinarily used letting evil happen allowing evil take place this place even causing evil another evil but could you give definition free will especially the presence omniscient being will self determination other words god created conscious beings who have the ability choose between moral choices independently god all will therefore free will the omniscient attribute god will know what the creatures will even before the omnipotent has created them there choice left all known the course events fixed not even for the omniscient itself extend argument james tims god omniscient then clearly creating beings with free moral choice greater good than the emergence ungodliness evil sin since created them knowing the outcome advance why the greater good allow evil with the knowledge that will happen why not make unipolar system with the possibility doing good not doing good but that does not necessarily imply doing evil logically possible but your god has not done not know that such logically possible god restrains free being choice choose evil and simply not good then can said that the being truly has free moral choice and good defined loving and obeying god and avoiding those behaviors which god prohibits then how can you say that one who not good not evil well like said not sure that doing not good without doing evil logically possible and when not omnipotent how can have free will you have said something about choices and the scenario gives them therefore have what you define free will imagine the following can good other beings but cannot harm them easily implemented making everyone appreciate being the object good deeds but don make them long for them they can not feel the absence good evil but whose case arguing conceivable the omnipotent can would not omnipotent you want logically consistent well you have give the pet idea omnipotent first deletion perhaps weak way were just speculating about the ubiquitous pink unicorns then there would basis for such speculation but this idea god didn just fall out the blue while reading science fiction fantasy know that some will disagree the bible describes god who omniscient and nevertheless created beings with free moral choice from which the definitional logic follows but that not all there there seems least mind certain amount evidence which indicates that god exists and that the biblical description him may fair one that evidence which bolsters the argument view that the bible describes omniscient and omnipotent god destroys the credibility the bible nothing less and lot people would interested evidence for god unfortunately there can any with these definitions benedikt
alt.atheism	political atheists arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu ken arromdee writes the motto originated the star spangled banner tell that this has something with atheists the motto coins originated mccarthyite smear which equated atheism with communism and called both unamerican didn the motto has been various coins since the civil war was just required all currency the keith
alt.atheism	anecdote about islam article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes when they are victimized they are muslims when they victimize others they are not true muslims muslims all quite annoying don understand the point this petty sarcasm basic principle islam that one born muslim one says testify that there god but god and mohammad prophet god that long one does not explicitly reject islam word then one must considered muslim all muslims the phenomenon you attempting make into general rule psychology direct odds with basic islamic principles you want attack islam you could better than than argue against something that islam explicitly contradicts was criticism islam for change was criticism the arguments used namely whenever people you identify muslims are the victims the attacks others they are used argument for the bad situation muslims but whenever deeds muslim that victimize others are named they not count argument because what these people did was not done true muslims mention made how muslims are the cause bad situation another party double standards benedikt
alt.atheism	political atheists reference line trimmed livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes there good deal more confusion here you started off with the assertion that there was some objective morality and you admit here you finished with recursive definition murder objectively immoral but eactly what murder and what not itself requires appeal morality yes now you have switch targets little but only little now you are asking what the goal what you mean goal are you suggesting that there some objective goal out there somewhere and form our morals achieve well for example the goal natural morality the survival and propogation the species another example moral system presented within the declaration independence which states that should guaranteed life liberty and the pursuit happiness you see have moral system must define the purpose the system that shall moral unto what end murder certainly violation the golden rule and thought had defined murder intentional killing non murderer against his will and you responded this asking whether not the execution innocent person under our system capital punishment was murder not fail see what this has with anything never claimed that our system morality was objective one thought that was your very first claim that there was some kind objective morality and that example that was that murder wrong you don want claim that any more that fine well murder violates the golen rule which certainly pillar most every moral system however not assuming that our current system and the manner its implementation are objectively moral think that very good approximation but can perfect and the way you don seem understand the difference between arbitrary and objective keith schneider defines murder this that and the other that arbitrary jon livesey may still say well according personal system morality all killing humans against their will murder and wrong and what the legal definition murder may the usa kuweit saudi arabia the prc may matters not whit well objective would assume system based clear and fundamental concepts while arbitary implies clear line reasoning keith
alt.atheism	pompous ass kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes then why people keep asking the same questions over and over because you rarely ever answer them nope answered each question posed and most were answered multiple times keith
alt.atheism	pompous ass livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes how long does the motto have stay around before becomes the default where the cutoff point don know where the exact cutoff but least after few years and surely after years why does the notion default not take into account changes population makeup specifically which changes are you talking about are you arguing that the motto interpreted offensive larger portion the population now than years ago keith
alt.atheism	keith schneider stealth poster sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes borrow from philosophy you don truly understand the color red until you have seen not true even you have experienced the color red you still might have different interpretation but you wouldn know what red was and you certainly couldn judge subjectively and objectivity not applicable since you are wanting discuss the merits red keith
alt.atheism	keith schneider stealth poster arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu ken arromdee writes but you were discuss the merits racism its psycholgical benefits you would well have experienced personally when you speak experiencing religion you mean someone should believe religion that right and this pretty impossible right would ideal could believe for while just try out religion and only then determine which course thought suits best but again this not possible not that religion warrants belief but the belief carries with some psychological benefits there are also some psychological burdens too when you speak experiencing racism you mean that someone should believe racism that they should have racist things done them for parallelism the former must what you meant but seems odd usage the phrase well there were some psychological other benefits gained from racism they could only fully understood judged persons actually believing racism course the parallel happens poor one but you originated keith
alt.atheism	political atheists bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes but you don know that capital punishment wrong isn the same shooting better analogy would that you continue drive your car realizing that sooner later someone going killed automobile accident you know people get killed result driving yet you continue anyway you not know that you will the one the killing not sure drive car had sufficient evidence conclude that would necessarily kill someone during lifetime yes and everyone thinks you one thinks that going cause involved fatal accident but the likelihood surprisingly high just because you are the man the firing squad whose gun shooting blanks does not mean that you are less guilty don know about jon but say all taking human life murder and say murder wrong all but one situation when the only action that will prevent another murder either myself another you mean that killing wrong all but one situtation and you should note that that situation will never occur there are always other options thank killing why don you just say that all killing wrong this basically what you are saying getting bit tired your probabilistic arguments are you attempting condescending that the system usually works pretty well small consolation the poor innocent bastard getting the lethal injection your personal value human life based solely statistical approach you sound like unswerving adherent the needs the many outweighing the needs the few fuck the few but most people have found the risk acceptable you are probably much more likely die plane crash even using electric blender than you are executed innocent personally think that the risk acceptable but ideal moral system such risk acceptable acceptable the fudge factor necessary such approximation the ideal keith
alt.atheism	political atheists bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes think that about people approve the death penalty even realizing all its shortcomings doesn this make reasonable are you the sole judge reasonability aside from revenge what merits you find capital punishment are talking about the majority the people that support anyway think that revenge fairness why most people are favor the punishment murderer going punished people that think that should get what deserves most people wouldn think would fair for the murderer live while his victim died revenge petty and pathetic perhaps you think that petty and pathetic but your views are the minority have local televised hot topic talk show that very recently did segment capital punishment each and every advocate the use this portion our system jurisprudence cited the main reason for supporting that bastard deserved true human compassion forgiveness and sympathy where are required have compassion forgiveness and sympathy someone wrongs will take great lengths make sure that his advantage removed similar situation forced upon him someone kills another then can apply the golden rule and kill this person turn not our entire moral system based such concept are you stating that human life sacred somehow and that should never violated this would sound like some sort religious view mean how reasonable imprisonment really when you think about sure the person could released found innocent but you still can undo the imiprisonment that was served perhaps shouldn imprision people could watch them closely instead the cost would probably similar especially just implanted some sort electronic device would you rather alive prison dead the chair once criminal has committed murder his desires are irrelevant and you still have not answered question you are concerned about the death penalty due the possibility the execution innocent then why isn this same concern shared with imprisonment shouldn your logic administer minimum punishment possible avoid violating the liberty happiness innocent person keith
alt.atheism	political atheists bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes kill this person innocent person convicted murder then murder would committed but would not the murderer least wouldn reasonably considered murderer with reasonable being introduced fudge factor necessary account for the inability totally objective due lack absolutely true information society collective decides carry the burden executing citizens then also carries the blame for their innocent blood each and every voter who casts ballot favor capital punishment part guilty the murder each and every innocent victim the system why are only those people favor the system blame society accepts such system then each member society blame when innocent person gets executed those that are not favor should work convince others and most members our society have accepted the blame they considered the risk acceptable similarly every person who drives must accept the blame for fatal traffic accidents this something that surely going happen when many people are driving all question what risk acceptable much more likely that innocent person will killed driving than that one will executed keith
alt.atheism	don more innocents die without the death penalty article psilink com psilink com james tims writes maintaining classes and even prison seems place more innocent people higher risk unjust death than would the state executed classes and with occasional error answer from the position that would indeed place these people prison for life that depends not only their predisposition towards murder but also their success rate escape and therefore their ability commit the same crimes again other words lifetime imprisonment doesn work perhaps not because not executing these people but because not being careful enough about how lock them bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	ancient islamic rituals article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes propose that these two trends greater level general depression society and other psychological problems and greater sexual promiscuity are linked with the latter being prime cause the former cannot provide any evidence beyond this this stage but the whole thesis seems very reasonable and request that people ponder upon damn right you can provide any evidence for rarely are any widespread social phenomenon reducible such simple premise they were psychology would hard science with roughly the same mathematical soundness physics your premise may well right much more likely however that reflects your socialization and religious background well your need validate your religious beliefs were pretend have all the answers and don would say that the xenophobia guilt and intolerance brought about adherence fundamentalist religions play just large role depressing the members our society your mileage obviously varies bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	political atheists article apr blaze jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu ken arromdee writes article fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes would say that one innocent person killed some sense bad many certainly feel that way when punish someone for single murder now reform system reducing the number deaths one produce system say should not back system even though doing would introduce only single extra death bob seems think that one bad many sense somewhat stronger than the one you indicate yes argument that the sole purpose the death penalty kill people that primary and would argue only purpose continue kill people practice that has almost utility especially when you know you will killing innocents unconscionable the very least the existence the prison system and our transportation system are based their merits society not their detriments are willing accept few lost innocent lives because there overwhelming benefit the continued existence these systems one has stretch the evidence and the arguments make the same claim for capital punishment just case wasn clear again maintain capital punsihment system that kills innocent people and provides with net positive gain why were you pin corner and ask would have respond that don belief the state should have the right take life all but won open that debate seems others are tiring this thread anyway bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	there must creator maybe article drporter suvm syr edu drporter suvm syr edu brad porter writes science wonderful answering most our questions not the type question scientific findings very often but personally find the theory evolution unfathomable could humans highly evolved complex organism that thinks learns and develops truly organism that resulted from random genetic mutations and natural selection stuff deleted computers are excellent example evolution without creator did not create computers did not create the sand that goes into the silicon that goes into the integrated circuits that into processor board took these things and put them together interesting way just like plants create oxygen using light through photosynthesis much bigger leap talk about something that created everything from nothing find unfathomable resort believing creator when much simpler alternative exists simply are incapable understanding our beginnings there even were beginnings all and that with the present keeps perfectly busy jim halat
alt.atheism	americans and evolution article rpi edu johnsd jec its rpi edu dan johnson writes article maine maine edu maine maine edu writes dan johnson you don know but take this hand anyway bravo for beautiful simply beautiful jim halat
alt.atheism	speculations article rusnews mantis mathew mathew mantis writes nanci ann miller andrew cmu edu writes this god truly omnipotent you folks like claim then why can terminate eternity for the same reason can flibble glop ork groink the thing you are demanding that must able has meaning its own terms this classic example excessive faith reason the fact that have trouble talking about something doesn imply that impossible simply implies that hard talk about there very good chance that god can flibble glop ork groink charlie wingate can flibble glop ork groink and isn even god doug graham dgraham bnr opinions are own
alt.atheism	political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes much though might fun debate capital punishment itself this probably the wrong group for the only relevance here that you don seem able tell what capital punishment actually and when murder that when you tell murder wrong you are using term you have not yet defined well said that when innocent person has been executed this objectively murder however who blame another question seems that the entire society that sanctions any sorts executions realizing the risks blame there probability killing innocent person shooting random into the air and there probability killing innocent person when the state administers system capital punishment when you either you know that they actions you are taking will sooner later result the killing innocent person yes but there also probablity that you will kill someone doing any raondom activity presumably you had not isolated yourself totally from the rest society because this and driving will kill people will airlines but people continue both driving and flying are not punishments inflicted unwilling prisoners courts they are risks that take upon ourselves willingly and argue that our law system similar risk perhaps innocent person will punished someday but work prevent this fact many criminals free result our trying prevent punishment innocents our own driving kills someone else then sure there moral issue know least one person who was involved fatal accident and they felt vey guilty afterwards but such accidents are totally expected given the numner vehicals the road again the blame society not this what you said you were saying that there were such false witness that resulted innocent person being convicted and killed would still the fault the state since did the actual killing just commented that the state does the killing does not depend there being false witnesses how could the state does the killing even the case sincere mistakes yes but the state not fault such case the state can only much prevent false witnesses possible what are you trying say that capital punishment always murder because the possibilty human error invalidating the system saying capital punishment murder period not because this that and the other but because involves taking human life that definition murder make appeals dictionaries objective morals okay this what you call murder but the question whether not all such murders are wrong are you saying that all taking human life wrong matter what the circumstances society decide murder someone then should say that and lists our reasons for doing and live with the moral consequences should not play word games and pretend that murder isn murder and that opinion about how society ought run but this basically how works society accepts the risk that innocent person will murdered execution and every member society shares this blame and most people definitions murder include some sort malicious intent which not involved execution but were trying discuss objective moral system least its possibilty what ramifications does your personal system have objective one were not discussing objective moral system was showing you that you didn have one because for one thing you were incapable defining the terms for example murder murder violates the golden rule executions not because allowing all society implicitly accepts the consequences matter who the innocent victim not talking about reading minds are just talking about knowing the truth yes can never absolutely certain that have the truth but the court systems work principle knowing the truth beyond reasonable doubt sorry but you simply are not quoting yourself accurately here what you said and since are looking totally objectively this case then know what people are thinking when they are voting execute the person not the intent malicious and unfair then the execution would murder what you are doing now slide into another claim which quite different the jury being persuaded beyond serious doubt not the same knowing what their minds beyond serious doubt reading the minds the jury would certainly tell whether not conviction was moral not but objective system only the absolute truth matters and the jury system one method approximate such truth that twelve members must convinced truth moreover jury which comes from sufficiently prejudiced background may allow itself persuaded beyond serious doubt evidence that you and would laugh but then read the minds these people would know that the conviction was unfair but would perfectly fair could read minds assume that would fair knew the absolute truth why much less fair your opinion only have good approximation the absolute truth not question fairness your claim which have quoted above claim about whether can know was fair able distinguish capital punishnment from murder yes while could objectively determine the difference knew all possible information can always determine the difference our flawed system think that our system almost good possible but still isn objectively perfect you see doesn matter know fair not objectively either fair not now there huge difference can read minds can know and cannot read minds can know nothing the difference not degree fairness but what can know but what know has effect objective system think possible produce fairly objective system are clear which goals supposed promote not going waste time trying devise system that pretty sure does not exist why are you sure simply want people confront reality reality remember why your reality important this case the reality that ideal theories apart can never know even after the fact about the fairness the justice system for every innocent person released from death row there may have been dozen innocent people executed hundred none all simply don know but can assume that the system fairly decent least most likely and you realize that the correctness our system says nothing about totally ideal and objective system now what are going the one hand can pretend that have ideal theory and that can know things can never know and the justie system fair and that can wave magic wand and make certain types killing not murder and our way well can have ideal system but the working system can not ideal can only hope create system that close approximation the ideal system possible the other hand can recognize that all justice has small hope probability punishing the innocent and that the end bear moral responsibility even for the probabilistic consequences the systems set and then say well here murdering again maybe some will even say gee wonder all this strictly necessary yes all bear the responsibility most people seem willing this think that the second preferable that requires people face the moral consequences what society instead sheltering ourselves from them magic ceremonies and word games must realize the consequences all our actions why you keep separating the justice system from the pack and lest forget also don think have objective moral system and believe only have take that idea seriously when someone presents evidence don think our country has objective system but think such objective system can exist theory without omniscience objective system not possible practice keith
alt.atheism	political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes now along comes keith schneider and says here objective moral system and then start ask him about the definitions that this objective system depends and predictably the whole thing falls apart only falls apart you attempt apply this doesn mean that objective system can exist just means that one cannot implemented keith
alt.atheism	university violating separation church state article kepler unh edu dmn kepler unh edu until kings become philosophers philosophers become kings writes recently ras have been ordered and none have resisted cared about apparently post religious flyer entitled the soul scroll thoughts religion spirituality and matters the soul the inside bathroom stall doors school the university new hampshire some sort newsletter assembled hall director somewhere campus most post deleted please respond soon possible like these religious postings stop now thanks dana there easy way out post the flyers the stall doors but add the bottom nice large capitals emergency toilet paper robert mellish fog email mellish net irc hobnob and also the mrs joyful prize for rafia work
alt.atheism	usatoday family values article rzz unix portal com danb shell portal com dan babcock writes there was funny usatoday from american family association post few choice parts for your enjoyment all emphases the not adding anything all the typos are mine dan article deleted found the same add our local sunday newspaper the add was placed the cartoon section the perfect place for
alt.atheism	islamic authority over women article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes claim that person that committs crime doesn believe god for the moment that the crime committed least whether they are originally believers not believe good your statistics indicate people that have declared atheism and doubtless when atheist does act charity they temporarily become baptist jon
alt.atheism	ancient islamic rituals article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes propose that these two trends greater level general depression society and other psychological problems and greater sexual promiscuity are linked with the latter being prime cause the former cannot provide any evidence beyond this this stage but the whole thesis seems very reasonable and request that people ponder upon pondered for all ten seconds when realised that since don have any reliable statistics for sexual promiscuity and since the whole issue depression isn all well defined for earlier centuries you are probably talking crap course you could pull mozumder and say that people who are having sex outside marriage are defined depressed can say ever noticed myself jon
alt.atheism	soc motss princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts article apr cbnewsl att com stank cbnewsl att com stan krieger writes now can please use rec scouting for the purpose for which was established clearly netnews voters decided that did not want provide scouting newsgroup give fringe groups forum for their anti societal political views this the only thing will comment from stan this time part this forum call rec scouting for policy discussions and related topics this policy discussion and involves related topics this not fringe group discussion obviously engenders strong feelings from all sides the issues hand wether particular view anti societal not your opinion and yours alone don try make seem otherwise you not wish engage this discussion use kill file you wish continue this discussion please knowing full well the implications that apply know for myself that plan continuing with the discussion when have the wish have input for one tired people trying say that this not matter significant for this group and quite especially for those who feel the impact more closely dominick zurlo the world www oyster why eagle scout allergic mollusks blacklisted
alt.atheism	political atheists mathew mathew mantis writes for rape surely there the burden guilt solely the rapist not you are thrown into cage with tiger and get mauled you blame the tiger keith
alt.atheism	political atheists mathew mathew mantis writes perhaps shouldn imprision people could watch them closely instead the cost would probably similar especially just implanted some sort electronic device why wait until they commit the crime why not implant such devices potential criminals like communists and atheists sorry don follow your reasoning you are proposing punish people before they commit crime what justification you have for this keith
alt.atheism	enviroleague new alternative scouting for those unacceptable bsa for reasons religious sexual preference from boyd critz iii compuserve com subject enviroleague birth announcement march from earth forum compuserve information service formal announcement enviroleague new youth movement enviroleague was recently born according its founder boyd critz iii cis peoria illinois enviroleague exists for the education youth both male and female matters concerning their values related and responsibility for our environment incorporated illinois not for profit corporation its articles and initial applications for service mark have now been filed according critz its draft bylaws contain the following statement mission and objectives mission the mission enviroleague and its adult members foster and implement the improved education young people the need conduct their lives stewards the earth leave the earth better condition than they found and otherwise act responsible moral and ethical users their environment pursue the accomplishment this mission enviroleague shall seek serve catalyst focusing common cause the separate efforts all groups desiring the preservation improvement and responsible use the environment which must all live objectives pursuit the mission enviroleague its primary objectives shall establish movement involving many environmentally concerned organizations possible said movement having its primary focus the education and participatory involvement young people appropriate areas environmental concern develop and provide such organizations and their branches full complement program materials for their use including suitable uniforms insignia and other badges written ideas syllabi and information literature and other items shall seem appropriate and desirable serve clearing house for the exchange program ideas materials and information among said organizations and assist environmentally concerned organizations recruit and train the necessary adult leadership for their youth programs enviroleague will operate through three program divisions serving youth the elementary middle and high school grades respectively service shall through formation enviroleague teams either enviroleague itself environmentally conscious organizations their local branches wishing charter use programs developed enviroleague enviroleague develops will controlled the actual adult leaders each local team and will have nationally imposed obstacles membership adult leadership status not based upon relevant improper conduct organizations accepting charter may however impose certain additional standards for their own use the program material should such organizations enviroleague will commit itself forming soon possible new nearby teams having such restrictions particularly youth membership enviroleague will operate the principle that youth will have much contribute developing its programs thus the top youth leaders its teams for middle and high school youth may become involved governing any local administrative groups and those for its high school youth may involved similar functions the national level program materials are development this time copies the draft portions the mentor manual manual for adult leadership will the earth forum library these files will updated development takes place compuserve particularly proud that enviroleague founder chose this electronic medium make the first public announcement its formation this announcement being made simultaneously both the outdoor and earth forums the electronic home enviroleague compuserve earth forum earth message and library areas both named enviroleague subsequently enviroleague initial governance council has held its first meeting boyd critz was elected the first enviroleague chief guardian equivalent chairman the board ceo can reached home case real need also mail can addressed enviroleague box peoria those interested starting enviroleague team might just establish contact receive diskette ibm dos ascii with initial information cdt rocket stratus com you believe that speak for company cdt vos stratus com write today for special investors packet
alt.atheism	idle questions for fellow atheists wonder how many atheists out there care speculate the face the world atheists were the majority rather than the minority group the population rather ridiculous question some ways know but newsreader down not getting any new postings for bit figure might well post something new myself also how many atheists out there would actually take the stance and accor higher value their way thinking over the theistic way thinking the typical selfish argument would that both lines thinking evolved from the same inherent motivation one not intrinsically different from the other qualitatively but then again measuring stick must drawn somewhere and cannot assign value system beliefs its core than the only other alternative apply its periphery how expresses its own selfishness idle thoughts adam adam john cooper verily often have laughed the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had claws
alt.atheism	americans and evolution article apr dcs warwick simon dcs warwick simon clippingdale writes deleted over alt atheism tend recognise two categories atheism function format due mathew mantis think weak not believe gods strong believe not gods deleted strong atheist and must quibble with your assertion that the strong position requires faith believe that god commonly described theists exist this belief merely opinion formed the basis observation including certain amount introspection fully accept that could wrong and will swayed suitably convincing evidence thus while believe that gods exist this does not imply faith part that let first say that believe that gods exist fact different than not believing god gods will argue that your latter statement believe that gods exist does rest upon faith that you are making positive statement that gods exist strong atheism rather than merely saying don know and therefore don believe them and don not believe then weak atheism once again not believe god different than saying believe that god does not exist still maintain the position even after reading the faqs that strong atheism requires faith but first let say the following might have language problem here regards faith and existence christian maintain that god does not exist exist means have being space and time god does not have being god being kierkegaard once said that god does not exist eternal with this said feel rather pointless debate the called existence god and that not what doing here believe that god the source and ground being when you say that god does not exist also accept this statement but obviously mean two different things however what follows will use the phrase the existence god usual sense and this the sense that think you are using would like clarification upon what you mean the existence god also might differ upon what means have faith here what webster says faith allegiance duty person loyalty fidelity one promises sincerity intentions belief and trust and loyalty god belief the traditional doctrines religion firm belief something for which there proof complete trust something that believed esp with strong conviction esp system religious beliefs syn see belief one can never prove that god does does not exist when you say that you believe god does not exist and that this opinion based upon observation will have ask what observtions are you refering there are observations pro con that are valid here establishing positive belief all observations can only point you direction direction that might even predisposed predisposed mean for example people whoes partents believe god also tend actually draw conclusion about the existence non existence god requires leap and you have made this leap when you actively say believe that god does does not exist personally think that both statements are misguided arguing over the existence god precisely the wrong way find him and yes use him because personal god the only viable concept imo person wants use she ahead course god neither nor she but have choice but anthropomorphise you want explain myself further glad and please someone does not agree with even they violently disagree ones advantage start name calling person thinks misunderstood something the faqs they they think have not read them well enough just point out the error ways and correct the situation interested polite and well thought out discussion cheers simon simon clippingdale simon dcs warwick department computer science tel university warwick fax coventry bob singleton bobs thnext mit edu
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes more horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else there are definitely quite few horrible deaths the result both atheists and theists sure bobby can list quite few for the atheist side but fails recognize that the theists are equally proficient genocide perhaps since bit weak history somone here would like give list wars caused led theists can think few hitler claimed christian for example but more complete list would probably more effective showing bobby just how absurd his statement peace side note notice you always sign your posts peace perhaps you should take your own advice and leave the atheists peace with their beliefs bobby mozumder nanci you know and are sure the author this quote please send email andrew cmu edu lying ourselves more deeply ingrained than lying others
alt.atheism	dear theist west next cville wam umd edu stilgar writes means the full quote michael crichton jurrasic park was something like the earth has existed quite contently for billions years have been here but for the blink eye and were gone tomorrow the earth would not miss remember this quote keep myself humble when thinking that have progressed far that are masters this planet cool quote the earth doesn need saving existed quite happily with out are the ones who need saving better watch the theists will jump you for that brian west this not sig file the earth have been this not sig file here but for the blink sig file eye were gone tomorrow posted west wam umd edu would not missed who doesn care who knows jurassic park diclaimer said this meant this nobody made nanci you know and are sure the author this quote please send email andrew cmu edu lying ourselves more deeply ingrained than lying others
alt.atheism	political atheists turn jump article innq gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes reference line trimmed livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes there good deal more confusion here you started off with the assertion that there was some objective morality and you admit here you finished with recursive definition murder objectively immoral but eactly what murder and what not itself requires appeal morality think you mean circular not recursive but that semantics recursiveness has problems just horribly inefficient just ask any assembly programmer yes now you have switch targets little but only little now you are asking what the goal what you mean goal are you suggesting that there some objective goal out there somewhere and form our morals achieve well for example the goal natural morality the survival and propogation the species another example moral system presented within the declaration independence which states that should guaranteed life liberty and the pursuit happiness you see have moral system must define the purpose the system that shall moral unto what end the oft quoted line that says people should guaranteed life liberty and the pursuit happiness inalienable rights complete lie and deception the very authors that line were the process proving liberty never free always purchased some cost almost always the cost another whos liberty more inalienable similarly for right life when one person must die save another even group others whos life more inalienable that leads into the classic question the value the death penalty especially for serial killers whos life and liberty more valuable the serial killer the victim according that beautiful line those two rights should completely inviolate that noone should able remove them this includes government admittedly the serial killer has restricted some people life and liberty but not his own life liberty inviolate also according the declaration independence murder certainly violation the golden rule and thought had defined murder intentional killing non murderer against his will oooh like that means that killing infant not murder because cannot against its will reason infant has will such similarly for people who are brain dead easier see coma etc also under current law accidental killing still murder how will you include that and you responded this asking whether not the execution innocent person under our system capital punishment was murder not fail see what this has with anything never claimed that our system morality was objective one thought that was your very first claim that there was some kind objective morality and that example that was that murder wrong you don want claim that any more that fine the only real golden rule life who has the gold makes the rules might makes right that survival now what wrong with that well murder violates the golen rule which certainly pillar most every moral system however not assuming that our current system and the manner its implementation are objectively moral think that very good approximation but can perfect you mean the golden rule stated yes almost every system implemented has used that reality sorry don deal much fiction reality and the way you don seem understand the difference between arbitrary and objective keith schneider defines murder this that and the other that arbitrary jon livesey may still say well according personal system morality all killing humans against their will murder and wrong and what the legal definition murder may the usa kuweit saudi arabia the prc may matters not whit welcome ozland what not arbitrary you can find some part society some societal rules morals etc that are not arbitrary please tell don think there are any well objective would assume system based clear and fundamental concepts while arbitary implies clear line reasoning keith sounds like euphemisms the difference seems that objective some reasoning that like while arbitrary some reasoning that don like don understand
alt.atheism	radical agnostic not the one and only jcopelan nyx edu wrote article bgsu edu andy bgsu edu pixie writes first post seen from the bug zoo bgsu there means that can possibly think prove beyond doubt that god does not exist but anyone has one all means tell what therefore lacking this ability absolute proof being atheist becomes act faith and itself and this cannot accept accept nothing blind faith invisible pink flying unicorns need say more there also the question what meant atheist familiar example the importance the meaning the word follows the two statements following are consistent not believe that you are wearing lilac socks not believe that you are are not wearing lilac socks the two statements following are not consistent believe that you are wearing lilac socks believe that you are are not wearing lilac socks statements and require faith they make presumptions about the nature reality statements and require belief many atheists myself included take the following position not believe that there god not believe that there not god that harbor beliefs all there good evidence for god existing not some folks call this agnosticism does not suffer from blind faith all think don worry happy
alt.atheism	what maddi was created the image gaea therefore must the pinnacle creation she which creates she which births she which continues cut all the religious crap woman thanks and sexism that started the road atheism maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california kids please don try this home remember post professionally
alt.atheism	the wrong and the right article trmetu bitnet trmetu bitnet writes turkish guy who had tried atheism satenism and buddism some instant hislife finally decided islambecause many facts which intend write here from point view you atheists are people who has dropped deep dark well and thinking the only reality the dusty walls the well but you had looked little bit upward you would see the blue skies you dsee truth but you close your eyes allah the only god and mohammed his mess ager now let generate some entropy means theology and thermodynamics hat your point view the problem the first kiss that the first spark which was generated for the formation the universe has formed tself you are bothering yourselves with the big bang but where the first spa please think bit think and return the only reality the universe isla this looks bit too much like bobby atheism false stuff are really going have through this again maybe the universe cyclical brendan dunn
alt.atheism	political atheists bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes and the even that argument doesn stand costs far more execute criminal this country than does feed clothe and shelter them for the remainder their natural life some people believe this fault our judicial system find one greatest virtues assume that you are talking about the appeals processes etc well should noted that people who are imprisoned for life will also tend appeal though not quite much the final hours anyway economics not very good reason either favor oppose the punishment keith
alt.atheism	americans and evolution article apr skyblu ccit arizona edu lippard skyblu ccit arizona edu james lippard writes article mar juliet caltech edu lmh juliet caltech edu henling lawrence writes atheism greek not theos god belief that there god agnosticism greek not gnostein know belief that not possible determine there god agnosticism you have here defined positive belief belief that not possible determine the existence any gods that belief inclined reject you have also defined atheism here positive belief that there god fairly large number atheists alt atheism reject this definition instead holding that atheism simply the absence belief god michael martin atheism philosophical justification distinguishes strong atheism mistake will have get newer dictionary and read the follow line larry henling lmh shakes caltech edu
alt.atheism	political atheists reference line trimmed ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu scott sauyet writes first make the assumption that you agree that murderer one who has commited murder well say that murderer one who intentionally committed murder for instance you put bullet into gun that was thought contain blanks and someone was killed with such gun the person who actually performed the action isn the murderer but guess this actually made clear the below definition interested see more reasonable definition what you mean reasonable otherwise your inductive definition doesn bottom out your definition essence that murder the intentional killing someone who has not commited murder against his will expanding the second occurence murder the above see that yes bad include the word being defined the definition but even though the series recursively infinite think the meaning can still deduced assume you can see the problem here correct inductive definition you must define something terms simpler case and you must have one several bottoming out cases for instance can define the factorial function the function which assigns positive integer the product the positive integers less than equal the positive integers inductively follows math lesson deleted okay let look this situation suppose there longstanding feud between two families which claim that the other committed some travesty the distant past each time member the one family kills member the other the other family thinks that justified killing that member the first family now let suppose that this sequence has occurred infinite number times you don like dealing with infinities suppose that one member the family goes back into time and essentially begins the whole thing that there never ending loop slayings based some non existent travesty how you resolve this well they are all murders now suppose that this isn totally applicable your problem but still possible reduce uninduced system and any case the nested murderer the definition murder cannot infintely recursive given the finite existence humanity and murder cannot committed without killing involved the first person intentionally cause someone get killed necessarily murderer this enough induction solve the apparently unreducable definition see totally objective system where all the information available such nested definition isn really problem keith
alt.atheism	political atheists article pigidinnsot gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes mathew mathew mantis writes for rape surely there the burden guilt solely the rapist not you are thrown into cage with tiger and get mauled you blame the tiger human has greater control over his her actions than predominately instictive tiger proper analogy would you are thrown into cage with person and get mauled you blame that person yes providing that that person was responsible frame mind not clinicaly insane pcb etc one thing that relates among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because the love their mom makes for more virile men bobby mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu april the one true muslim left the world
alt.atheism	idle questions for fellow atheists article apr mac macalstr edu acooper mac macalstr edu writes wonder how many atheists out there care speculate the face the world atheists were the majority rather than the minority group the population probably would have much the same problems with only slight shift emphasis weekends might not inviolate more common work days week business and instead american atheists would have similar religious organizations persons religious belief seems more crutch and justification for actions than guide determine actions course people would have come with more fascinating rationalizations for their actions but that could fun watch seems that for most people religion america doesn matter that much you have extreemists both ends but large majority don make too much issue about long you don now admittedly have never had suffer the bible belt but just north and see the fringes and the reasonable people most things tend reasonable religion well also how many atheists out there would actually take the stance and accor higher value their way thinking over the theistic way thinking the typical selfish argument would that both lines thinking evolved from the same inherent motivation one not intrinsically different from the other qualitatively but then again measuring stick must drawn somewhere and cannot assign value system beliefs its core than the only other alternative apply its periphery how expresses its own selfishness don bother according higher value thinking just about anybodys thinking don want fall that trap because you start that then you are then decide which better says whom why there best and also what about those who have inferior modes thinking idic infinite diversity infinite combinations argue over soda but not over much more just what inflation has done
alt.atheism	the problem satan used islamic authority over women article apr news unomaha edu trajan cwis unomaha edu stephen mcintyre writes course bobby then states that satan has free will that does god wants him this brings host paradoxes god therefore evil have free will god directing also god evil which part his infinite self good and which evil etc would like for once solid answer not run about hope gave you fairly solid answer this one simply don agree with the embodied version satan who separate creation force wrote the belief which ascribe that evil not creation rather the absence good this fits with all the logic about things having dual use knife can used sculpt and can used kill like entropy evil seen this view neither force nor entity satan therefore metaphorical fact there are several verses the holy qur which appear support this view and several traditions well for example there tradition that food should never left open shelf table overnight lest satan enter appears that this reference yet undiscovered germs thus the evil effect spoiled food described satan but there are many examples satan personified which believe and there are quite physical descriptions heaven and hell the holy qur the bible etc there have been times the spiritual and intellectual evolution the modern human when these physical descriptions heaven hell and satan were taken quite literally and that worked for the time mentioned the tradition cited above for example was sufficient the absence theory about germs and disease spread worms simply describe the evil which was passed consumer spoiled food satanic which begs the question satan this case metaphorical how can you certain allah not the same way the bottom line here however that describing spiritual plane human language something like describing color person who has been blind from birth you may want read the book flatland you haven already the dragon egg the first intended light hearted description mathematical con cept some deleted for space saving when language fails because cannot used adequately describe another dimension which cannot experienced the speakers then such conventions metaphor allegory and the like come necessary the unseen described terms which have reference and meaning for the reader listener but like all models compro mise must made when speaking metaphorically clarity and directness meaning equivalence perception and the like are all crippled but what else can you this why asked the above how would you then know god exists spirit being rather than just being metaphorical mean okay say well satan just metaphorical but then you have justify this belief and justify that god not some metaphor for something else say this because there are many many instances satan described being such the tormentor the old testament book job the temptor the new testament gospels the same way god too described being spirit how know one metaphorical and not the other further belief god isn bar evil let consider the case satanists even satan were metaphorical the satanist would have believe god justify this belief again have case where someone does believe god but religious standards they are evil bobby does see this let him address this question also deleted some more metaphor obviously more philosophizing this issue possible but not sure that the readers this newsgroup would want delve into religious interpretation further however anyone wishes discuss this certainly willing either off line mail line posting stephen atheist libertarian pro individuality pro responsibility and all that jazz
alt.atheism	soc motss princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts article pmjo inn lynx unm edu bevans carina unm edu mathemagician writes just what gay people that straight people don absolutely nothing very straight arrow year old male that involved the bsa don care what gay people among each other long they don make passes anything summer camp where work boss gay not pansy way gay know few but just one the guys doesn push anything and give him the same respect back due his position anything the bsa has taught don know tolerance something before met this guy thought all gays were faries the bsa has taught antibigot basically comes down this what you among yourself your own business one else has the right tell you otherwise unless violates someone else civil rights
alt.atheism	gospel dating date mon apr gmt from stilgar west next cville wam umd edu article kmr cwru edu kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes article apr wam umd edu west next cville wam umd edu stilgar writes the illiad the undisputed word god prove wrong dispute ergo counter example you are proven wrong dispute your counter example ergo counter counter example you are wrong and right nanny nanny boo boo tbbbbbbbtttttthhhhh this looks like serious case temporary islam
alt.atheism	word advice article mimsy umd edu mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes said enough times that there alternative that should think you might have caught now and there alternative but the point rationality isn alternative either the problems metaphysical and religious knowledge are unsolvable should say humans cannot solve them how does that saying those who say can done shouldn interrupt those who are doing jim have you washed your brain today
alt.atheism	concerning god morality long jbrown batman bmd trw com writes sorry but there are supernatural forces necessary create pathogen you are saying since diseases are bad the bad entity must have created what would you say about acid rain meteors falling from the sky volcanoes earthquakes and other quote unquote acts god would say that they are not acts god but natural occurrences amazes that you have the audacity say that human creation was not the result the natural process evolution but rather act god and then the same post say that these other processes volcanos are natural occurrences who gave you the right choose what things are natural processes and what are direct acts god how you know that god doesn cause each and every natural disaster with specific purpose mind would certainly along with the sadistic nature seen the bible even satan had nothing with the original inception disease evolution random chance would have produced them since humanity forsook god protection choose live apart from god law humanity collectively then should come surprise that there are adverse consequences our collective action one these that are left deal with disease and disorders which inevitably result entropic universe may ask where this collective bullcrap coming from collective was referring the idea that god works with humanity two levels individually and collectively mankind whole decides undertake certain action the majority mankind then god will allow the consequences that action affect mankind whole adam eve two people even tho they had the honor you christians claim being the first two definitely not represent majority the billions and trillions probably more people that have come after them perhaps they were the majority then but and you weren around vote and perhaps might have voted differently about what with that tree but your god never asked just assumes that you have two bad people then they all must bad hmm sounds like the same kind false generalization that see many the theists posting here resorting that where they get shoulda known jim nanci you know and are sure the author this quote please send email andrew cmu edu lying ourselves more deeply ingrained than lying others
alt.atheism	islamic authority over women article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes that your mistake would better for the children the mother raised the child one thing that relates among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because the love their mom makes for more virile men compare that with how homos are raised study and you will get point but way you have claim that would better the men stayed home and raised the child that something false made feminists that seek status above men you not recognize the fact that men and women have natural differences not just physically but mentally also your logic didn say americans were the cause worlds problems said atheists becuase they have code ethics follow which means that atheists can whatever they want which they feel right something totally based their feelings and those feelings cloud their rational thinking yeah didn say that all atheists are bad but that they could bad good with nothing define bad good awright bobby back all his shit for brains glory just when thought turned the corner progress his thorazine prescription runs out put him kill file but man this good stuff wish had his staying power fortunately learned not take him too seriously long long long ago bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	islamic authority over women article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes peace bobby get this the hell out your sig until you learn what stands for and really mean bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	omnipotence was speculations article psilink com robert knowles psilink com writes date fri apr from nanci ann miller andrew cmu edu can god uncreate itself for did would violate his own nature which cannot god nature exist after all the which statement his inherent existence existence itself existence cannot not exist then mentioned above must not very omnipotent what you mean omnipotent here you mean omnipotent that god should able anything everything this creates self contradictory definition omnipotence which effectively useless descriptive omnipotence must mean being all powerful and not being able anything everything let illustrate analogy suppose the united states were the only nuclear power earth suppose further that the military could not effectively countered any nation group nations the has the power into any country any time for any reason straighten things out the leaders the see fit the would militarily omnipotent but suppose further that the holds doctrine philosophy not interfering the internal affairs any nation such the current civil war the former yugoslavian states technically this scenario the would have the power unilaterally into yugoslavia and straighten out the mess but effectively the could not intervene without violating its own policy non interference the policy non interference were held strongly enough then there would never question that would ever violated effectively the would limited what could actually although had the power whatever wanted the would simply never want interfere for such idea would beyond the consideration its leaders given such inviolate non interference policy god effectively limited the same sense all powerful but cannot use his power way that would violate the essence what himself hope this helps clear some the misunderstanding concerning omnipotence regards jim
alt.atheism	islamic marriage article apr cadence com mas cadence com masud khan writes article qav austin ibm com karner austin ibm com karner writes okay you want name names there are obviously official records these pseudo marriages because they are performed for convenience what happens typically that the woman willing move with her lover without any scruples legal contracts speak the man merely utilizing loophole entering into temporary religious marriage contract order have sex nobody complains nobody cares nobody needs know perhaps you should alert your imam could that this practice far more widespread than you may think maybe takes muslim men witness the penetration decide the practice exists again you astound with the level ignorance you display muslims are not allowed enter temporary marriages got that there evidence for outlawed practise get your facts straight buddy give references for just tell everyone you were lying not widespread you may think fantasise fact contrary your fantasies not practised all amongst muslims first all not your buddy second read what wrote not talking about what muslims are allowed merely what some practice they consider themselves muslim you don retort with the old and tired they must not true muslims bullshit gave you the names what will you with this information fatwa going leashed out against the perpetrators you honestly think that someone who did would voluntarily come forward and confess with the kind extremism shown your religionaries fat chance any rate there can conclusive proof the very nature the act perhaps people that indulge this practice agree with you theory but hope that allah will forgive them the end think rather arrogant you pretend speak for all muslims this regard also kind silly are you insinuating that because the koranic law forbids there are criminals muslim countries this far care this subject the weakness your arguments are for all netters see over and out disclaimer the opinions expressed this posting are mine solely and not represent employer any way karner aix technical support karner austin vnet ibm com
alt.atheism	political atheists article innq gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes reference line trimmed livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes there good deal more confusion here you started off with the assertion that there was some objective morality and you admit here you finished with recursive definition murder objectively immoral but eactly what murder and what not itself requires appeal morality yes now you have switch targets little but only little now you are asking what the goal what you mean goal are you suggesting that there some objective goal out there somewhere and form our morals achieve well for example the goal natural morality the survival and propogation the species got just this far what you mean goal hope you don mean imply that evolution has conscious goal jon
alt.atheism	political atheists article pic linnrau gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes personal objection that find capital punishment cruel and unusual punishment under all circumstances can painless isn cruel and has occurred frequently since the dawn time hardly unusual koff you mean that long put you sleep first can kill you without being cruel this changes everything jon
alt.atheism	political atheists article pieg inns gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes now along comes keith schneider and says here objective moral system and then start ask him about the definitions that this objective system depends and predictably the whole thing falls apart only falls apart you attempt apply this doesn mean that objective system can exist just means that one cannot implemented not the fact that can exist that bothers the fact that you don seem able define wanted hear about indefinable things that might principle exist long you don think about them too carefully could ask religious person now couldn jon
alt.atheism	pompous ass article btinnqa gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes then why people keep asking the same questions over and over because you rarely ever answer them nope answered each question posed and most were answered multiple times fifty dollars can answer your question she what the big bang theory the big bang theory recipe for cookies she fifty dollars please hey didn say the answers would make sense jon
alt.atheism	pompous ass article jkinnqe gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes how long does the motto have stay around before becomes the default where the cutoff point don know where the exact cutoff but least after few years and surely after years why does the notion default not take into account changes population makeup specifically which changes are you talking about are you arguing that the motto interpreted offensive larger portion the population now than years ago have just commenting that makes very little sense consider everything inherit the default seen any steam trains recently jon
alt.atheism	concerning god morality long article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com responds lot grief given him article apr leland stanford edu galahad leland stanford edu scott compton the sagemaster but then ask where this relevant discussion answering john question why why are there genetic diseases and why are there many bacterial and viral diseases which require babies develop antibodies god fault the original question say not most scotty followup was irrelevant the original question but this not unusual threads often quickly evolve away from the original topic what could not understand why jim spent much time responding what regarded irrelevancies may ask where this collective bullcrap coming from collective was referring the idea that god works with humanity two levels individually and collectively mankind whole decides undertake certain action the majority mankind well guess hypothetical adam was the majority mankind seeing how was the only man the time then god will allow the consequences that action affect mankind whole you didn understand that then apologize for not using one and two syllable words discussion understand what you mean collective but think insane perversion justice what sort judge would punish the descendants for crime committed their ancestor you want sure that read your post and provide response send copy jim brown bmd trw com can read every day and some posts slip thanks well must admit that you probably read more often than read the bible these days but you missed couple good followups your post sending you personal copy followup which hope you will respond publically john the sageless
alt.atheism	jews can hide from keith cco article apr bmerh bnr dgraham bmers bnr douglas graham writes article aaa fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article apr bmerh bnr dgraham bmers bnr douglas graham writes jon what ken said was there have previously been people like you your country unfortunately most jews did not survive that sure sounds like ken accusing the guy being nazi previous posting deleted yes yes this perfectly fine rant and agree with completely but what does have with anything the issue hand here whether not ken accused the fellow from germany being nazi grant that did not explicity make this accusation but came pretty damn close certainly accusing the guy sympathizing with those who would like exterminate the jews and that good enough for the poster casually trashed two thousand years jewish history and ken replied that there had previously been people like him germany that right there have been there have also been people who were formally nazis but the nazi party would have gone nowhere without the active and tacit support the ordinary man the street who behaved though casual anti semitism was perfectly acceptable now what exactly don you understand about what wrote and why don you see what has with the matter hand jon
alt.atheism	jews can hide from keith cco article apr mac macalstr edu acooper mac macalstr edu writes article pint fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes well germany was hardly the only country discriminate against the jews although has the worst reputation because did the best job expressing general european dislike them this should not turn into debate antisemitism but you should also point out that luther antisemitism was based religious grounds while hitler was racial grounds and wagnmer aesthetic grounds just blanketing the whole group poor analysis even they all are bigots find these intriguing remarks could you give bit more explanation here for example which religion anti semitic and which aesthetic jon
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes ivt cfj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes should british around blowing skyscrapers next don know you are doing but seems you are implying that the person accused blowing the wtc actually did and that islamic teachings have something with blowing the wtc was replying person who attempted justify the fatwa against rushdie the grounds that his work was intentionally insulting think that take single sentence from fairly long posting and say don know you are doing but seems you are implying the very best quite disingenuous and perhaps even dishonest anyone care dig back and read the full posting they will see nothing the kind trust you don deny that islamic teaching has something with the fatwa against rushdie jon
alt.atheism	anecdote about islam article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes don understand the point this petty sarcasm basic principle islam that one born muslim one says testify that there god but god and mohammad prophet god that long one does not explicitly reject islam word then one must considered muslim all muslims the phenomenon you attempting make into general rule psychology direct odds with basic islamic principles you want attack islam you could better than than argue against something that islam explicitly contradicts then mozumder incorrect when says that when committing bad acts people temporarily become atheists jon
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes saddam believed god would pray five times day communism the other hand actually committed genocide the name atheism lenin and stalin have said themselves these two were die hard atheist look pun and believed atheism integral part communism bobby stalin killed millions the name socialism atheism was characteristic the lenin stalin version socialism nothing more another characteristic lenin stalin socialism was the centralization food distribution would you therefore say that stalin and lenin killed millions the name rationing bread course not more horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else earlier posts you stated that true muslim believers were incapable evil suppose you believe that you could reason that one has ever been killed the name religion what perfect world you live bobby one the reasons that you are atheist that you limit god giving god form god does not have face bobby referring rather obscure law the good atheist handbook law xxvi give that which you not believe face you must excuse bobby when argue against theism usually argue against the christian idea god the realm christianity man was created god image kevin marshall sophomore computer science virginia tech blacksburg usa marshall csugrad edu
alt.atheism	the list biblical contradictions joslin pogo isp pitt edu david joslin writes someone writes found list biblical contradictions and cleaned bit but now like some help with curious know what purpose people think these lists serve about time why atheists spend much time paying attention the bible anyway face there are better things with your life used chuckle and snort over the silliness that book and the absurdity people believing truth etc why spend little time the mayan religion the native americans heck the native americans have signifigantly more interesting myths also what about the egyptians think pay much attention christianity because accept religion and not mythology which find more accurate try tolerant gets very hard when someone places book under nose and tells special not carolyn
alt.atheism	visit from the jehovah witnesses apr mst jbrown batman bmd trw com said god eternal jesus god therefore jesus eternal this works both logically and mathematically god the set things which are eternal jesus subset god therefore jesus belongs the set things which are eternal everything isn always logical mercedes car that girl mercedes therefore that girl car heikki
alt.atheism	political atheists article rusnews mantis mathew mantis mathew writes article apr blaze jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu ken arromdee writes the automobile system kills non driving passengers not mention pedestrians you need not drive even use car killed one indeed and kills far more than system public transport would therefore entirely favour banning private cars and replacing them with trains buses taxis bicycles and seconded cycle work each day and could just get those damned cars and their cretinous drivers off the road would lot more fun jon
alt.atheism	political atheists article rusnews mantis mathew mantis mathew writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes and meaning people who drive accept the risks doing and contribute tax money design systems minimize those risks already have systems minimize those risks just that you car drivers don want use them they called bicycles trains and buses poor matthew million posters call you car drivers and chooses non car owner jon
alt.atheism	omnipotence was speculations article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes article psilink com robert knowles psilink com writes date fri apr from nanci ann miller andrew cmu edu can god uncreate itself for did would violate his own nature which cannot god nature exist after all the which statement his inherent existence existence itself existence cannot not exist then mentioned above must not very omnipotent what you mean omnipotent here you mean omnipotent that god should able anything everything this creates self contradictory definition omnipotence which effectively useless descriptive omnipotence must mean being all powerful and not being able anything everything let illustrate analogy suppose the united states were the only nuclear power earth suppose further that the military could not effectively countered any nation group nations the has the power into any country any time for any reason straighten things out the leaders the see fit the would militarily omnipotent did you check with the afghans before posting this they might disagree jon
alt.atheism	little too satanic mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes nanci ann miller writes favorite reply the you are being too literal minded complaint that the bible really inspired god and really that important him then would make damn certain all the translators and scribes and people interpreting and copying were getting right literally not then why should put any merit all something that has been corrupted over and over and over man even was originally inspired god the corrupted over and over theory pretty weak comparison the current hebrew text with old versions and translations shows that the text has fact changed very little over space some two millennia this shouldn all that suprising people who believe text this manner are likely makes some pains make good copies you honestly hold that tripe charley for start there are enough current versions the bible make comparisons show that what you write above utter garbage witness mormon catholic anglican and greek orthodox bibles but really convince you have take you good old library our local library had king james which compared brand new hot god tongue good news bible genesis was almost unrecognisable many the discrepencies between the four gospels had been edited from the good news bible fact the god good news was much more congenial fellow must say you like get the king james out again and actually give you some quotes least the headings haven changed much jeff
alt.atheism	ancient islamic rituals cfaehl vesta unm edu chris faehl writes why more reasonable than the trend towards obesity and the trend towards depression you can just pick your two favorite trends notice correlation them and make sweeping statement generality mean you can and people have but that does not mean that valid reasonable thesis best gross oversimplification the push pull factors people experience agree reckon television and the increase fundamentalism you think its the increase pre marital sex others thinks its because psychologists have taken over the criminal justice system and let violent criminals con them into letting them out into the streets others think the increase designer drugs others think communist plot basically the social interactions all the changing factors our society are far too complicated for control just have hold the panic handles and hope that are heading for soft landing but one things for sure depression and the destruction the nuclear family not due solely sex out marriage jeff fred rice muslim giving his point view darice yoyo monash edu cfaehl vesta unm edu
alt.atheism	americans and evolution article apr njitgw njit edu dmu hertz njit edu david utidjian eng sci writes article mar juliet caltech edu lmh juliet caltech edu henling lawrence writes for complete description what and not atheism agnosticism see the faq for alt atheism alt answers think utidjian remarque berkeley edu apologize for posting this thought was only going talk origins also took definitions from websters nonetheless the apparent past arguments over these words imply that like bimonthly and biweekly they have commonly accepted definitions and should used with care larry henling lmh shakes caltech edu
alt.atheism	jews can hide from keith cco article aaa fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article apr bmerh bnr dgraham bmers bnr douglas graham writes article pint fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes deletions jon what ken said was there have previously been people like you your country unfortunately most jews did not survive that sure sounds like ken accusing the guy being nazi hitler and the nazis didn spring fully formed from the forehead athena they didn invent anti semitism they built foundation anti semitism that was already present germany this foundation anti semitism was laid down not the nazis but the people listed and also hundreds years unthinking knee jerk bigotry the part perfectly ordinary people and course their pastors and priests what have worry about today not whether some hollywood hitler black uniform going come striding onto the german stage one unprepared step but whether those same bedrock foundations anti semitism are being laid down little little germany speak and they will laid down not hitlers and himmlers who will come later but people like the poster question the people who think that casual anti semitism acceptable even fun deletions did now may suggest with the greatest possible respect that you read some history jon you consider the german poster remark anti semitic perhaps you imply that anyone germany who doesn agree with israely policy nazi pray tell how does even qualify casual anti semitism the term doesn apply why then bring your own bigotry shining through disclaimer the opinions expressed this posting are mine solely and not represent employer any way karner aix technical support karner austin vnet ibm com
alt.atheism	omnipotence was speculations article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes god effectively limited the same sense all powerful but cannot use his power way that would violate the essence what himself cannot try will not one thing that relates among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because the love their mom makes for more virile men bobby mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu april the one true muslim left the world
alt.atheism	visit from the jehovah witnesses article suopanki apr stekt oulu suopanki stekt oulu heikki suopanki writes god eternal jesus god therefore jesus eternal this works both logically and mathematically god the set things which are eternal jesus subset god therefore jesus belongs the set things which are eternal everything isn always logical mercedes car that girl mercedes therefore that girl car this not strickly correct only incorrect application the rules language does seem work the mercedes the first premis and the one the second are not the same mercedes your case and are not equal one name person the other the name object you can not simply extract word without taking the context into account course your case doesn imply that his case does equal try again one thing that relates among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because the love their mom makes for more virile men bobby mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu april the one true muslim left the world
alt.atheism	islam the jehovah witnesses article apr princeton edu qpliu princeton edu writes article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes but god created lucifer with perfect nature and gave him along with the other angels free moral will now god could have prevented lucifer fall taking away his ability choose between moral alternatives worship god worship himself lucifer moral choices are determined his will what determines what his will qpliu princeton edu standard opinion opinions are delta correlated bobby few posts ago you said that lucifer had free will from the above seems the believes the contrary are you talking about the same lucifer can you suggest experiment determine which you wrong you claim that you are both right norman
alt.atheism	had share this article apr acme gen kilroy acme gen earthbound misfit writes bena dec monash edu ben aveling writes warning you are anything like devout christian this post really going offend and upset you numerous ctrl deleted hehehe assume everyone here familiar with the christian fish symbol the one the back all those volvos the one that looks something like perhaps more like well found out this morning where comes from been stolen from the pagans like much else last last chance blisfully ignorant hmm how can put well comes from this sigh hate drawing with ascii chars still think you can work out from there you haven read skinny legs and all tom robbins even accurate then most the modern religions have been appropriated also great book followups alt atheism whose readers are probably slightly more authorative this craig harding kilroy acme gen acme bbs jub lbh pnyyvat obmb craig thought was derived from greek acronym greek isn much but goes something like this jesus christ god iesus christos theos ichthos which the greek for fish ichthysaurus apologies for dreadful greek perhaps someone will correct the way what does your sig mean norman
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes one the reasons that you are atheist that you limit god giving god form god does not have face wait minute thought you said that allah presume allah god was unknowable and yet here you are claiming know very concrete fact about him you say that god does not have face doesn the bible say that god has hindparts how you suggest decide which any you right are you both right god has hindparts but face does your use quotation marks god does not have face allow you interpret this mean whatever you like peace bobby mozumder norman
alt.atheism	visit from the jehovah witnesses article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes article dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes but could you give definition free will especially the presence omniscient being will self determination other words god created conscious beings who have the ability choose between moral choices independently god all will therefore free will these hypothetical conscious beings can ignore any influences their circumstances their genetics their environment their experiences which are not all self determined course the idea hell makes the idea free will dubious the other hand the idea hell not very powerful idea parable for you there was once our main character who blah blah blah one day thug pointed mean looking gun omc and said what say blasting you hell omc thought believe this thug and follow the instructions that will given avoid getting blasted hell the other hand believe this thug and not follow the instructions that will given get blasted hell hmm the more attractive choice obvious follow the instructions now omc found the choice obvious because everything omc had learned about getting blasted hell made appear very undesirable but then omc noticed that the thug gun wasn real gun the thug threats were make believe omc ignored the thug and resumed blah blah blah qpliu princeton edu standard opinion opinions are delta correlated
alt.atheism	gospel dating article kmr cwru edu kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes article apr wam umd edu west next cville wam umd edu stilgar writes article kmr cwru edu kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes article apr wam umd edu west next cville wam umd edu stilgar writes the illiad the undisputed word god prove wrong dispute ergo counter example you are proven wrong dispute your counter example ergo counter counter example you are wrong and right nanny nanny boo boo tbbbbbbbtttttthhhhh the premis stated that was undisputed fine the illiad the word god disputed not dispute that won matter prove wrong brian west this not sig file the earth have been this not sig file here but for the blink sig file eye were gone tomorrow posted west wam umd edu would not missed who doesn care who knows jurassic park diclaimer said this meant this nobody made
alt.atheism	gospel dating article apr wam umd edu west next cville wam umd edu stilgar writes fine the illiad the word god disputed not dispute that won matter prove wrong the illiad contains more than one word ergo can not the word god but you will humbly agree that the words god will conceed one thing that relates among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because the love their mom makes for more virile men bobby mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu april the one true muslim left the world
alt.atheism	americans and evolution article pik fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes why you spend much time posting here your atheism incidental the question god trivial fess matters you great deal ask yourself two questions how important mithras your life today how important would mithras become there was well funded group fanatics trying get the schools system teach your children that mithras was the one true god jon right jon who cares who whose long works for the individual but don try impose those beliefs our children would add the well funded group tries also purge science deny children access great wonders and skills and how about the kids born creationists what burden with which begin adult life must cruel awakening for those who finally see the light provided possible escape from the depths this type ignorance
alt.atheism	visit from the jehovah witnesses jbrown batman bmd trw com writes syllogism the form therefore this logically valid construction your syllogism however the form therefore therefore yours logically invalid construction and your comments don apply appeal mathew mantis here who wrote the excellent post now part the faq logical argument jim not mathew mantis but any successful first year logic student will see that you are logically correct the other poster logically incorrect know nothing more than believe with pretentions
alt.atheism	concerning god morality was americans and evolution article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes why babies get diseases etc what god did create was life according protein code which mutable and can evolve without delving into deep discussion creationism evolutionism here the main problem the scenario you outline reasonably consistent but all the evidence that familiar with not only does not support but indicates something far different the earth latest estimates about billion years old and has had life for about billion those years humans have only been around for most about years but the fossil evidence inidcates that life has been changing and evolving and fact disease ridden long before there were people yes there are fossils that show signs disease mostly bone disorders course but there are some heck not just fossil evidence but what been able glean from genetic study shows that disease has been around for long long time human sin was what brought about disease least indirectly though necessarily then how could exist before humans god created the original genetic code perfect and without flaw and without getting sidetracked into the theological ramifications the original sin the main effect the called original sin for this discussion was remove humanity from god protection since their choice cut themselves off from intimate fellowship with god addition their sin caused them come under the dominion satan who then assumed dominion over the earth deletions since humanity was longer under god protection but under satan dominion was great feat for satan genetically engineer diseases both bacterial viral and genetic although the forces natural selection tend improve the survivability species the degeneration the genetic code tends more than offset this know many evolutionary biologists who know more about biology than you claim who will strongly disagree with this there evidence that the human genetic code any other started off perfect condition seems adapt its envionment collective sense really curious what you mean the degeneration the genetic code human dna being more complex tends accumulate errors adversely affecting our well being and ability fight off disease while the simpler dna bacteria and viruses tend become more efficient causing infection and disease bad combination umm nah seem pretty good job adapting viruses and bacteria and they only very small percentage microlife harmful humans and that small percentage seems reasonalby constant size but the ranks keep changing for example bubonic plague used really nasty disease sure you agree but still pops from time time even today and doesn much damage part that because better sanitation but even when people get the disease the symptoms tend less severe than the past this seems partly because people who were very susceptible died off long ago and because the really nasty variants overgrazed forgive the poor terminology engineer not doctor and died off for lack nearby hosts could wrong this but from what gather acne only few hundred years old and used nastier though killer seems getting less nasty age hence have newborns that suffer from genetic viral and bacterial diseases disorders now wait minute have question humans were created perfect right and you admit that have inbuilt abiliy fight off disease seems unlikely that satan who making the diseases would also gift humans with the means fight them off simpler make the diseases less lethal wants survivors far can see our immune systems imperfect though they may presently must have been built into god want clear this are you saying that god was planning ahead for the time when satan would charge building immune system that was not the time design necessary that god made our immune systems ahead time knowing that adam and eve would sin and their descendents would need fight off diseases this may more mystical supernatural explanation than you are prepared accept but god not responsible for disease even satan had nothing with the original inception disease evolution random chance would have produced them since humanity forsook god protection here another puzzle what exactly you mean perfect the phrase created perfect and without flaw mind perfect system would incapable degrading over time perfect system that will without constant intervention become imperfect not perfect system least imho that god did something like writing masterpiece novel bunch gum wrappers held together with elmer glue that the original genetic instructions were perfect but were written inferior materials that had carefully tended would fall apart why could god not have used better materials was god incapable creating system that could maintain itself did just choose not deletions summary newborns are innocent but god does not cause their suffering main point said was that there really isn any evidence for the explanation you give least that aware but couldn help making few nitpicks here and there sincerely ray ingles the above opinions are probably not those the university ingles engin umich edu michigan yet
alt.atheism	concerning god morality long article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes article apr leland stanford edu galahad leland stanford edu scott compton writes deletions now back your post you have done fine job using your seventh grade life science course explain why bad diseases are caused satan and good things are result god but want let you little secret can create amino acid sequence lab and guess what the sequence curls into helix wow that right can happen without supernatural force wow all takes few advanced science degrees and millions dollars state the art equipment and thought took intelligence create the building blocks life foolish people with advanced science degrees use state the art equipment and spend millions dollars simulate tornadoes but tornadoes not require intelligence exist not only that the equipment needed not really state the art study the products yes but not generate them you want sure that read your post and provide response send copy jim brown bmd trw com can read every day and some posts slip thanks will sincerely ray ingles the above opinions are probably not those the university ingles engin umich edu michigan yet
alt.atheism	anecdote about islam date apr gmt from jon livesey livesey solntze wpd sgi com article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes don understand the point this petty sarcasm basic principle islam that one born muslim one says testify that there god but god and mohammad prophet god that long one does not explicitly reject islam word then one must considered muslim all muslims the phenomenon you attempting make into general rule psychology direct odds with basic islamic principles you want attack islam you could better than than argue against something that islam explicitly contradicts then mozumder incorrect when says that when committing bad acts people temporarily become atheists jon course not incorrect defending islam when defending islam against infidels you can say anything and one will dare criticize you but when atheist uses the same argument using petty sarcasm can have his temporary atheists whenever needs them and all the temporary atheists can later say that they were always good muslims because they never explicitly rejected islam temporary atheism temporary islam temporary marriage none sticks teflon religion how convenient and easy clean after but then what would you expect from bunch people who can even agree the phases the moon
alt.atheism	concerning god morality long this kind argument cries for comment jbrown batman bmd trw com wrote article apr leland stanford edu galahad leland stanford edu scott compton writes jim you originally wrote god did not create disease nor responsible for the maladies newborns what god did create was life according protein code which mutable and can evolve without delving into deep discussion creationism evolutionism god created the original genetic code perfect and without flaw you have any evidence for this the code was once perfect and has degraded ever since should have some evidence favour this statement shouldn perhaps the biggest imperfection the code that full non coding regions introns which are called because they intervene with the coding regions exons impressive amount evidence suggests that introns are very ancient origin likely that early exons represented early protein domains the number introns decreasing increasing appears that intron loss can occur and species with common ancestry usually have quite similar exon intron structure their genes the other hand the possibility that introns have been inserted later presents several logical difficulties introns are removed splicing mechanism this would have present but unused introns are inserted moreover intron insertion would have required precise targeting random insertion would not tolerated since sequences for intron removal self splicing mrna are conserved besides transposition sequence usually leaves trace long terminal repeats and target site duplications and these are not found near intron sequences seriously recommend reading textbooks molecular biology and genetics before posting theological arguments like this try watson molecular biology the gene darnell lodish baltimore molecular biology the cell for starters remember the question was posed theological context why does god cause disease newborns and answer likewise from theological perspective own less valid than purely scientific perspective just different scientific perspective supported the evidence whereas theological perspectives often fail fulfil this criterion think you misread meaning said god made the genetic code perfect but that doesn mean perfect now has certainly evolved since for the worse would you please cite few references that support your assertion your assertion less valid than the scientific perspective unless you support some evidence fact has been claimed that parasites and diseases are perhaps more important than thought for instance sex might have evolved defence against parasites this view supported computer simulations evolution tierra perhaps thought was higher energy rays like rays gamma rays and cosmic rays that caused most the damage fact thermal energy that does most the damage although usually mild and easily fixed enzymatic action actually neither knows what the atmosphere was like the time when god created life according recollection most biologists not claim that life began billion years ago after all that would only half billion years after the earth was created would still too primitive support life seem remember figure more like billion years ago for the origination life earth anyone with better estimate replace created with formed since there need invoke any creator the earth can formed without one most recent estimates the age the earth range between billion years and earliest signs life not true fossils but organic stromatolite like layers date back billion years this would leave more than billion years for the first cells evolve sorry can give any references this based the course evolutionary biochemistry attended here dominion was great feat for satan genetically engineer diseases both bacterial viral and genetic although the forces natural selection tend improve the survivability species the degeneration the genetic code tends more than offset this again you want this true you have any evidence for this supposed degeneration can understand scott reaction excuse but this far fetched that know you must jesting you know what pathogens are you know what point mutations are you know that everything can come about spontaneously response your last statement and neither you you may very well believe that and accept fact but you cannot know that hope you don forget this have evidence that suggests everything can come about spontaneously you have evidence against this conclusion science one does not have believe anything healthy sign doubt and disbelieve but the right path walk take look the evidence you and not present one own conclusions prior this theology does not use this method therefore seriously doubt could ever come right conclusions human dna being more complex tends accumulate errors adversely affecting our well being and ability fight off disease while the simpler dna bacteria and viruses tend become more efficient causing infection and disease bad combination hence have newborns that suffer from genetic viral and bacterial diseases disorders you are supposing purpose not valid move bacteria and viruses not exist cause disease they are just another manifests general principle evolution only replication saves replicators from degradiation are just efficient method for our dna survive and replicate the less efficient methods didn make the present and for the last time please present some evidence for your claim that human dna degrading through evolutionary processes some people have claimed that the opposite true have suppressed our selection and thus are bound degrade haven seen much evidence for either claim but then ask where this relevant discussion answering john question why why are there genetic diseases and why are there many bacterial and viral diseases which require babies develop antibodies god fault the original question say not course nothing evil god fault but your explanation does not work fails miserably you may right but the fact that you don know that satan not responsible and neither suppose that powerful evil being like satan exists would inconceivable that might responsible for many the ills that affect mankind don think could have done much better job pun intended the problem seems satan necessary explain any diseases they are just inevitable any product evolution did say that where seems like another bad inference actually what you done oversimplify what said the point that your summary words takes new context never said that people are meant presumably god punished getting diseases why did say that free moral choices have attendent consequences mankind chooses reject god people have done since the beginning then they should not expect god protect them from adverse events entropic universe not expecting this god exists expect him leave alone would also like hear why you believe your choices are indeed free this interesting philosophical question and the answer not clear cut seems what consequences would you expect from rejecting allah admit not perfect yet but working good library bookstore good starting point what does this have with the price tea china the question which provided answer biology and genetics are fine subjects and important scientific endeavors but they explain how god created and set life processes they don explain the why behind creation life its subsequent evolution why there why behind and your proposition was something that not supported the evidence this why recommend these books there any need invoke any why behind prime mover evidence for this the whole universe can come into existence without any intervention recent cosmological theories hawking suggest why people still insist this thanks scotty for your fine and sagely advice but not highly motivated learn all the nitty gritty details biology and genetics although sure find fascinating subject for realize that the details not change the big picture that god created life the beginning with the ability change and adapt its environment sorry but they there evidence for your big picture and need create anything that capable adaptation can come into existence without supreme being try reading atkins creation revisited freeman petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics the truth pihatie finou oulu physics the rule oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu chemistry the game
alt.atheism	islam dress code for women article dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes women have souls islam people have said here that some muslims say that women not have souls must admit have never heard such view being held muslims any era have heard some christians some eras holding this viewpoint but not muslims are you sure you might not confusing christian history with islamic history yes supposed have been predominant view the turkish caliphate not aware any turkish caliphate viewpoint this can you reference however found quote due imam ali whom the shias follow men never obey your women any way whatsoever never let them give their advice any matter whatsoever even those everyday life indeed allow them freely give advice anything and they will fritter away one wealth and disobey the wishes the owner this wealth see them without religion when alone they are left their own devices they are lacking both pity and virtue when their carnal desires are stake easy enjoy them but they cause great anxiety the most virtious among them are libertines but the most corrupt are whores only those them whom age has deprived any charm are untainted vice they have three qualities particular miscreants they complain being oppressed whereas they who oppress they make oaths whereas they are lying they pretend refuse men solicitations whereas they desire them most ardently let beg the help god emerge victorious from their evil deeds and preserve any case from their good ones quote from mas qanawi ref bouhdiba sexuality islam wouldn consider this quote being exemplary the islamic viewpoint though for all know the prophet cousin and the fourth khalif hazret ali may have said this after frustrating night with woman selim guncer selim guncer jaca negra luna grande csser asu aceitunas alforja aunque sepa los caminos guncer enuxha eas asu edu nunca llegare cordoba fgl
alt.atheism	islamic authority over women article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes that your mistake would better for the children the mother raised the child one thing that relates among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because the love their mom makes for more virile men compare that with how homos are raised study and you will get point but way you have claim that would better the men stayed home and raised the child that something false made feminists that seek status above men you not recognize the fact that men and women have natural differences not just physically but mentally also bobby there question here that just have ask all your posts aren some sort extended elaborate hoax why are you trying hard convince the entire civilised world that you feeble minded you have talent for saying the most absurd things here little sign for you print cut out and put top your computer terminal engage brain prior operating keyboard having said all that must admit all get laugh from your stuff graham jenkins graham jenkins its csiro csiro commonwealth scientific industrial canberra australia research organisation
alt.atheism	jews can hide from keith cco article daq fqs austin ibm com karner austin ibm com karner writes you consider the german poster remark anti semitic when someone says after years sightseeing and roaming around its come back kill palastinians and get their land back right yes that casual antisemitism can think plenty ways criticize israeli policy without insulting jews jewish history can you jon
alt.atheism	don more innocents die without the death penalty james tims psilink com writes maintaining classes and even prison seems place more innocent people higher risk unjust death than would the state executed classes and with occasional error would rather higher risk being killed than actually killed mistake though agree with the concept that the type and murderers are massive waste space and resources don agree with the concept killing wrong you kill will punish you our punishment will kill you seems lacking consistency know nothing more than believe with pretentions
alt.atheism	islam dress code for women article apr ennews eas asu edu guncer enuxha eas asu edu selim guncer writes wouldn consider this quote being exemplary the islamic viewpoint though for all know the prophet cousin and the fourth khalif hazret ali may have said this after frustrating night with woman that very interesting wonder are women reactions recorded after frustrating night with man that considered important jon
alt.atheism	there must creator maybe article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes article apr bradford newnham bradford leonard newnham writes deletions argument from incredulity has not been considered valid form reasoning since medieval times deletions interesting that you should mention that argument from incredulity has not been considered valid form reasoning since medieval times quite agree why then some atheists here engage more than few times have read posts where the atheists posting state that they cannot see how gracious and loving god can allow such evil and suffering occur see the earth simply because they cannot envision must not true this not argument from incredulity don know what you have presented indeed argument from incredulity however from what have seen not often presented this manner usually presented more the form and besides cannot see nor have ever been offered convincing explanation moreover not unreasonable ask for explanation for such phenomena that theism does not provide convincing explanation not argument theism favor especially when different theisms offer different explanations and even different adherents what purportedly the same theism give different explanations god has far more complex motivations and reasons for action non action than simply fix evil whenever and however occurs even before occurs and yet this very same argument from incredulity which ranks high among reasons why atheists general reject god and particular the christian god not experience experience the most common reason the lack evidence theism favor you mileage may vary this seems the universal bane human reasoning and rationality wit that far easier see the logical fallacy inept reasoning the part one opponents than see oneself heck snide this once also fairly easy attack arguments that are not made strawmen one man wisdom put take the log out your own eye before you try remove the splinter from your neighbor eye sage advice indeed sincerely raymond ingles ingles engin umich edu apple every eight hours keeps three doctors away kliban
alt.atheism	political atheists keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes mathew mathew mantis writes perhaps shouldn imprision people could watch them closely instead the cost would probably similar especially just implanted some sort electronic device why wait until they commit the crime why not implant such devices potential criminals like communists and atheists sorry don follow your reasoning you are proposing punish people before they commit crime what justification you have for this mathew proposing public defence mechanism not treating the electronic device impropriety the wearer what saying that the next step beyond what you propose the permanent bugging potential criminals this may not the surface sound like bad thing but who defines what potential criminal the government the day decides that being member opposition party makes you potential criminal then openly defying the government becomes lethal practice this not conducive free society mathew saying that implanting electronic surveillance devices upon people impropriety upon that person regardless what type crime what chance recidivism there basically you see the criminal justice system punishment for the offender and possibly therefore deterrant future offenders mathew sees most probably means rehabilitation for the offender was being cynical you okay jeff
alt.atheism	little too satanic article mimsy umd edu mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes nanci ann miller writes the corrupted over and over theory pretty weak comparison the current hebrew text with old versions and translations shows that the text has fact changed very little over space some two millennia this shouldn all that suprising people who believe text this manner are likely makes some pains make good copies tell king james mate wingate the peace god peace but strife closed the sod mangoe umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace god john burke jdb summa tamu edu
alt.atheism	islamic marriage date tue apr gmt from karner karner austin ibm com article apr cadence com mas cadence com masud khan writes article qav austin ibm com karner austin ibm com karner writes okay you want name names there are obviously official records these pseudo marriages because they are performed for convenience what happens typically that the woman willing move with her lover without any scruples legal contracts speak the man merely utilizing loophole entering into temporary religious marriage contract order have sex nobody complains nobody cares nobody needs know perhaps you should alert your imam could that this practice far more widespread than you may think maybe takes muslim men witness the penetration decide the practice exists again you astound with the level ignorance you display muslims are not allowed enter temporary marriages got that there evidence for outlawed practise get your facts straight buddy give references for just tell everyone you were lying not widespread you may think fantasise fact contrary your fantasies not practised all amongst muslims did you miss post this topic with the quote from the indonesian handbook and fred rice comments about temporary marriages will glad repost them will you accept that just may practice among some muslims will you continue claim that are all lying and that not practised all amongst muslims don think karner has tell everyone anything least all that lying since you obviously know nothing about this practice there very little you can contribute the discussion except accuse everyone lying perhaps your ignorance which showing learn more about islam learn more about muslims open your eyes maybe you will also see some the things the atheists see
alt.atheism	don more innocents die without the death penalty article chrisb baarnie chrisb tafe edu chris bell writes killing wrong you kill will punish you our punishment will kill you seems lacking consistency not any more than holding people against their will wrong you hold people against their will will punish you our punishment will hold you against your will there any punishment which isn something which done private person another private person for apparent reason would lead punishment fines suppose jim lippard lippard ccit arizona edu dept philosophy lippard arizvms bitnet university arizona tucson
alt.atheism	visit from the jehovah witnesses article kmr cwru edu kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes article suopanki apr stekt oulu suopanki stekt oulu heikki suopanki writes god eternal jesus god therefore jesus eternal this works both logically and mathematically god the set things which are eternal jesus subset god therefore jesus belongs the set things which are eternal the first premise and the conclusion are not properly translated identity statements since the those statements the predication rather than identity instead they should translated using predicate letter using designate god and designate jesus and the predicate letter for the property being eternal the first premise and the conclusion the second premise appears contain identity which case can properly symbolized but your remark that jesus subset god suggests that strict identity not desired here however the first premise means that all members making the set god have the property being eternal the same conclusion follows jim lippard lippard ccit arizona edu dept philosophy lippard arizvms bitnet university arizona tucson
alt.atheism	visit from the jehovah witnesses article chrisb baarnie chrisb tafe edu chris bell writes jbrown batman bmd trw com writes syllogism the form therefore this logically valid construction your syllogism however the form therefore therefore yours logically invalid construction and your comments don apply all those are identity both syllogisms are valid however predicate then the second syllogism invalid the first syllogism you have pointed out valid whether predicate designates individual jim lippard lippard ccit arizona edu dept philosophy lippard arizvms bitnet university arizona tucson
alt.atheism	soc motss princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts student writes somewhere roger colin shouse writes about radical gay dogma somewhere else claims not claim have claim knowing those doesn know there are least twenty instances this kind muddleheaded fourth reich sophistique shit his postings maybe more fact not sure the instances could counted because they reproduce like virus the more you consider his words question this what the best response weasels like shouse and stan krieger possibilities study them dispassionately and figure out how they work then remember what you learned combat them when they their clones get into office contribute your insights your favorite abnormal psych ward learn overcome your repugnance for serial murder this posting totally uncalled for rec scouting the point has been raised and has been answered roger and have clearly stated our support the bsa position the issue specifically that homosexual behavior constitutes violation the scout oath specifically the promise live morally straight there really nothing else discuss trying cloud the issue with comparisons blacks other minorities also meaningless because like comparing apples oranges people can control their race but they can control their behavior what else there possibly discuss rec scouting this issue nobody including bsa denying anybody the right live and worship they please don please but doesn mean that bsa the big bad wolf for adhering the recognized positive religious and moral standards which our society has been established and which should continue based stan krieger all opinions advice suggestions even unix system laboratories related employment are own summit smk usl com
alt.atheism	little too satanic article mimsy umd edu mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes pnanci ann miller writes favorite reply the you are being too literal minded complaint that the bible really inspired god and really that important him then would make damn certain all the translators and scribes and people interpreting and copying were getting right literally not then why should put any merit all something that has been corrupted over and over and over man even was originally inspired god pthe corrupted over and over theory pretty weak comparison the pcurrent hebrew text with old versions and translations shows that the text phas fact changed very little over space some two millennia this pshouldn all that suprising people who believe text this manner pare likely makes some pains make good copies well corrupted the first time good enough seeing that the bible was constructed years after jesus death the text merchants owe this and owe that wonder how anyone can take the literal word seriously obviously was not intended for such nonsense otherwise the authors the bible would not need plagerize off the asians for most the contents that can interperated make sense
alt.atheism	americans and evolution atheism incidental and the question god trivial but matters great deal when idiots try force their belief when they try enforce their creation myths taught scientific fact school when they tell can have morals because morals are from god when successful presidential candidate says that atheist shouldn considered citizen and couldn patriotic because after all this one nation under god when the fundies try take over the party that may well provide the next president the united states america that they can force their beliefs the rest the country cetera that why subscribe alt atheism and the middle this people who aren mind readers pop alt atheism tell what don believe concoct some straw man reason why don share their particular belief you think should just accept this this isn particularly dig fundamentalist christians have been told alt atheism that reject allah because too proud embrace islam and that reject krishna because eyes are closed but most the religious nuts who post alt atheism are some kind militant christian who can accept that others don share their beliefs this kind stuff should kept talk religion misc where belongs atheism isn belief the absence belief any gods you have problem with this bill pfirst would like say that atheism fact belief beilief pbecause belief something you hold with ador and faith atheist says there are gods this cannot proven therefore you are excepting this pfaith alone that belief secondly you complain much about how the pfundamental christians are trying force their beliefs you but you don pmention anything about how the atheists such madamme murry hare founder pof the atheists association austin texas and robert sherman from the chicago area have been trying force their beliefs everyone trying get rid god from our society banning religious paintings from parks during chistmas forcing cities change their town seals there any mention god like sherman has done trying get the slogan god trust off the american currency you also talk about creation myths they are fact myths and tha phave concrete evidece this you probably pdon and that just enforces point that your atheism just much belief christianity this not please show why isn pmark covalt the only real problem have with the argument christianity that they seem ignore their origin that being asiatic origin soon christians become the good non ego centric buddhists they are supposed then might listen opinion speak not for place employment but should christ was over rated and will the atf follow koresh the current christ through his ascention heaven
alt.atheism	alt atheism faq introduction atheism have addition the faq regarding why are there atheist hospitals recall correctly johns hopkins was built provide medical services without the backing religious group thus making hospital dedicated the glory weak atheism might someone check this brian evans bad mood bad mood sure bad mood bevans carina unm edu haven had sex ever virgin mary
alt.atheism	theists posting article aic nrl navy mil khan itd itd nrl navy mil umar khan writes stuff deleted there concordance for the faq which translation considered most authoritative there orthodox commentary for the faq available there one faq for militant atheists and another for moderate atheists you all read from the same faq how you resolve differences interpretation hmmmmmmmmmmmm can put the same question followers any religion how you moslems resolve differences opinion don tell that there one interpretation the quran read the soc culture newsgroups you will zillions different interpretations naren naren tekig pen tek com all standard disclaimers apply
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes more horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else list killings the name religion iran iraq war civil war sudan riots india pakistan massacares bangladesh inquistions america million crusades sure that people can add lot more the list wonder what bobby has say about the above standard excuses will not accepted naren all standard disclaimers apply
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism nanci ann miller andrew cmu edu writes snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes more horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else there are definitely quite few horrible deaths the result both atheists and theists perhaps since bit weak history somone here would like give list wars caused led theists this thread seems arguing the validity religious viewpoint according some utilitarian principle atheism religion wrong because causes death the underlying moral that death wrong this rather arbitrary measure validity get some epistemology richard harlequin com internet richard harlequin internet rptb cambridge phoenix janet zen buddhist
alt.atheism	radical agnostic not reply zazen austin ibm com welbon there means that can possibly think prove beyond doubt that god does not exist but anyone has one all means tell what therefore lacking this ability absolute proof being atheist becomes act faith and itself and this cannot accept accept nothing blind faith invisible pink flying unicorns need say more harbor beliefs all there good evidence for god existing not some folks call this agnosticism does not suffer from blind faith all think don worry happy for many atheists the lack belief gods secondary epistemological consideration what accept reliable way knowing there are known valid logical arguments for the existence gods nor there any empirical evidence that they exist most philosophers and theologians agree that the idea god one that must accepted faith faith belief without sound logical basis empirical evidence reliable way knowing there probably nothing else most people would accept the absence any possibility proof even when agree take someone elses word faith just mean that having found this person reliable the past judge him likely reliable source now find faith less reliable than logic and empirical evidence everywhere else why assume will provide reliable knowledge about gods the difference between the atheist and the theist fundamentally then one whether not faith held reliable way knowing rather than some agnostic posters would have whether ones faith gods gods the theist believes that faith acceptable basis for belief gods even rejects faith reliable other times for example his work scientist the atheist believes that only logic and empirical evidence lead reliable knowledge agnosticism seems less defensible position than theism atheism unless one sceptic regards all other knowledge without evidence why should believe gods rather than santa claus the easter bunny would also like point out others have that the atheist doesn require absolute knowledge the lack gods don believe that there any such thing absolute knowledge atheism the best and simplest theory fit the lack facts and should held until contrary evidence found david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire this patently absurd but whoever wishes become philosopher must learn not frightened absurdities bertrand russell
alt.atheism	keith ignorant seems mam mouse cmhnet org mike mcangus writes everything wouldn but would start now wait the religious organizations were longer tax exempt what other beef could you have they would then have much right lobby would any other group you asked would everything okay answered everything encompasses more than just the tax exempt status religious organizations well everything wouldn okay then tell what that wouldn okay that religions were longer tax exempt then what would wrong with their lobbying otherwise attempting influence politics keith
alt.atheism	keith schneider stealth poster mam mouse cmhnet org mike mcangus writes let see understand what you are saying order talk knowledgeably about religion atheists must first have been immersed religion that only the rare individual could have left you don understand said that don think people can discuss the subjective merits religion objectively this should obvious people here have said that everyone would better off without religion but this almost certainly isn true but really are you threatened the motto the people that use the motto tool let try take away the tool but guns and axes are tools both which have been used for murder should both taken away that say don think motto misuse warrants its removal least not this case keith
alt.atheism	keith schneider stealth poster cmtan iss nus tan chade meng dan writes somewhat agree with however what comes theist religion different matter that because religion like drug once use very difficult get out that because order experience religion necessarily have have blind faith and once have the blind faith very diffcult for you reason yourself back atheism again therefore unreasonable ask people try religion order judge like asking people try dying find out what death like well now can judge death until are dead right why should judge religion without having experienced people have said that religion bad any account and that way useful etc but don totally agree with this course cannot really say how the religious folk would act had they not been exposed religion but some people least seemed helped some ways basically can not judge whether religion the right route for given individual even for general population can say that not best for personally least you can choose not use religion might hard try find out its benefits you state above keith
alt.atheism	political atheists mmwang adobe com michael wang writes was looking for rigorous definition because otherwise would spending the rest our lives arguing what christian really believes don think need argue about this you think that the motto points out that this country proud its freedom religion and that this something that distinguishes from many other countries well your opinion not shared most people gather perhaps not but that because those seeking make government recognize christianity the dominant religion this country not think they are infringing the rights others who not share their beliefs yes but also many people who are not trying make government recognize christianity the dominant religion this country think the motto infringes upon the rights others who not share their beliefs and actually think that the government already does recognize that christianity the dominant religion this country mean don you realize recognize this this isn say that are supposed believe the teachings christianity just that most people like said before personally don think the motto major concern you agree with then what are discussing since most people don seem associate christmas with jesus much anymore don see what the problem can you prove your assertion that most people the don associate christmas with jesus anymore but hear quite bit about christmas and little anything about jesus wouldn this figure more prominent the holiday were really associated high degree with him are you saying that the association with jesus personal level and that everyone thinks about but just never talks about that can you prove that most people associate christmas most importantly with jesus anyways the point again that there are people who associate christmas with jesus doesn matter these people are majority not think the numbers matter takes majority least majority those power discriminate doesn keith
alt.atheism	political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes the probability that the automobile system will kill someone innocent accident goes asymptotically close just like the court system however anyone who doesn like the automobile system can opt out have this isn true many people are forced use the automobile system certainly don use choice there were other ways getting around secondly try make the automobile system safe possible because recognize the danger the innocent whereas the the current example not trying make the court system safer which could fairly easily replacing fatal punishments with non fatal punishments but think that the court system has been refined over hundreds years the britain and other countries have tried make fair possible can made better without removing the death penalty besides life imprisonment sounds like fatal punishment keith
alt.atheism	political atheists dace shrike und roy dace writes keith allan schneider keith cco caltech edu wrote some soldiers are dependent religion for number purposes and some are doubt dependent cocaine yet don see the military paying for coca fields while religion certainly has some benefits combat situation what are the benefits cocaine keith
alt.atheism	pompous ass mvs psuvm psu edu writes many people would probably think especially the fanatics propogandized this that this was conflict between the atheists and the religious many would get the impression that were trying outlaw religion contintue try remove all things with religious reference that not what the people asked think perhaps you would right you said the fundamentalists would think this way after all they think they are being oppressed when they are not allowed oppress however you have not shown where you get this idea that many people would probably think atheism religion winner take all far can tell your groundless prediction that this will happen but you haven taken into the account propoganda remember you asked germans before wwii the jews shoudl slaughtered they would probably answer but after the propoganda machine rolled through least some were able tolerate you see only takes small group fanatics whip general frenzy the propoganda machines have been gear over number issues including abortion and gays look some the things that have happened well far they have passed one amendment which currently under intense scrutiny and they have failed outlaw abortion which their prime goal that issue yep they seem sooo effective sure well they haven managed outlaw abortion due the possible objectivity the courts but they have managed create quite few problems for people that wanted have abortion they could create similar problems for and could worse they can try stop abortions blocking clinics etc but imagine what they have stop atheism besides the margin error very large when you only talk two people better than your one that your opinion also have branched out and the informal survey over half dozen now and what have they said were you questions unbiased keith you would claim that questions are biased the minute posted them because the answers agreed with everyone have asked about the possible removal the motto the christian portion has expressed regret about its loss because they like however when pointed out them that new motto will not the works none have expressed the desire rape murder pillage etc which you have basically claimed you are able convince them individually but could you convince whole room them whole nation for the atheist portion know some around here they have all expressed disgust with the motto some noted being harassed christians who used the motto try seem justified and all would see gone yes glad were gone never supported however think that minor problem that can easily ignored contrasted with what could happen what may likely which christians designed the motto does the motto say anything about jesus why you think that refers only christians christians wrote christians think that their religion right and all others are wrong therefore why would they include other religions the realm being correct doubt that any other religions were meant included well not clear the religious convictions francis scott key the motto can attributed him but least clear that believed god and surely there are few christians that think you say but don think that most you think that all christians actively despise other religions most that have met haven and don christian that have queried thinks means anything but them and only them why not ask some people other faiths sorry would but christianity just awfully popular around here suppose you could ask few people well have asked hindu moselem and few jews and all them think that applicable them course can say that these people just some that know pretty well are accurate representations their faiths always good idea assume that there were dissenting views any given issue you are assuming that all the views were the same and nothing leads this conclusion without evidence the contrary doubt that there were dissenting opinions you claim there were provide some evidence for your assertion well really like and tried but really don know where get access congressional records from the can anyone help out here comparing christians nazis interesting only the sense that neither can probably convinced change their beliefs again the motto the money doesn cost you anything extra however you abolished the motto all have pay have all the dies and plates redone like people paid before get them changed have the motto them you now need show that there good reason change everything again also doubt that they use same plates for more than year printing this would make easy remove the motto simply make next year plates without your claim evidently that they will have pay extra somewhere provide some evidence for this assertion are you saying that they redesign the plates each year anyway your whole argument conveniently deleted see was that the motto somehow costs all lot money this just not correct the ones read didn mention anything about jesus think the issue was concerning the distinction between religion and not how could between religious and not religious the motto refers god religious motto the question whether not only christian you say more doubt this provide some evidence for this assertion that say the religion this country and the non religion the ussr that was what most those quotes were about and some included all atheists general well don think that any the quotes although seem have lost them mentioned anything all about jesus they advocated religion over non religion specific religion was not mentioned you have missed this point said that the motto didn say anything about anyone particular that the motto doesn imply anything about your particular beliefs doesn say that everyone trusts some form god only that the nation the whole does have been through this before obvious does not include this much beyond doubt your claim again that the motto refers more than christians based the facts that christianity says all other religions are wrong and because seems that the motto was written christians doubt your claim you are saying that all christians must believe that all other religions should outlawed just because they think they are wrong that silly think the flat earthers are wrong but don advocate their banishment based this idea doubt that any additional expense would even incurred removing the motto provide some evidence for your claim that would think that any such cost would insignificant mentioned the slight cost because you said that the motto was costing lot money being our currency disregarding the digression the other motto used for harassment and other purpose has been found for why should not removed well mottos general don really have purposes don think should removed because think the benefit would outweighed the consequences and you know what the vote was were there other opinions you think that the main reason the motto was required law was bother atheists you think that this what the majority congress the time had mind you then show why again the opinion the people who put there that concerned with then you should concerned with the opinion the entire congress again not necessary that the complete majority shared the purpose confronting godless communism with this motto why not the majority that put there the general public probably does not know about the anti atheist intent few people the either daresay more people remember the than the time when key wrote the anthem but they remember the debate surrounding the motto they remember that some people intended message against atheists why don you include this your little survey that you were conducting you claim here that scientists would believe someone claims doubt this provide evidence for your assertion what should ask some scientists the probability that something einstein said about relativity worthy mean einstein said there good chance that was right least the time for the courts the method scientists use can applied need not agree with the court default because good record you need not agree with them all the time but you would certainly think that their decisions would good evidence favor some point what but you said you didn agree with the court because they allowed congress attempt make amendment prohibiting flag burning you don realize that something like this external the realm the court power then how can confident that you know anything about the court powers mean you don know how the court works how can you participate discussion the court judge can speak before congress and still you ignore the abortion gag rule you make your claims abortion think that would clearly inappropriate for supreme court justice testify before congress during the consideration constitutional amendment and order for the court rule something case usually must presented mushrooms flowers trees buildings signs whatever the analogy the same just because something that might find offensive present doesn mean that rights are being violated are talking about something put there people keith not mushroom one caused that mushroom exist unless you finding things offensive mushroom farm yes some mushrooms can planted and don appreciate mushrooms pizza either this not the case with the motto and you ignoring the harassment which the only known result the motto and you ignoring that somewhere along the line people were forced put the motto there who was forced put the motto there what you mean keith
alt.atheism	visit from the jehovah witnesses suopanki stekt oulu writes apr mst jbrown batman bmd trw com said god eternal jesus god therefore jesus eternal this works both logically and mathematically god the set things which are eternal jesus subset god therefore jesus belongs the set things which are eternal everything isn always logical mercedes car that girl mercedes therefore that girl car unfortunately your phrasing ambiguous writing more carefully have least two possibilities the first things called mercedes are cars that girl called mercedes therefore that girl car that entirely valid piece logical deduction not sound because the first statement false similarly would hold that jim example valid but not sound another possible interpretation what you wrote there exists least one car called mercedes that girl called mercedes therefore that girl car which isn valid mathew
alt.atheism	political atheists keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes mathew mathew mantis writes perhaps shouldn imprision people could watch them closely instead the cost would probably similar especially just implanted some sort electronic device why wait until they commit the crime why not implant such devices potential criminals like communists and atheists sorry don follow your reasoning you are proposing punish people before they commit crime what justification you have for this look irony keith mathew
alt.atheism	political atheists keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes mathew mathew mantis writes for rape surely there the burden guilt solely the rapist not you are thrown into cage with tiger and get mauled you blame the tiger far know tigers are not sentient were pushed into pool with some dolphins and they attacked might inclined blame the dolphins rather than the person doing the pushing dolphins are not usually aggressive and they seem have well developed brains and capacity for abstract thought matter fact tigers rarely attack humans unless the human provokes them course they are cage which far too small that might count provocation mathew
alt.atheism	political atheists kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes almost sure that zyklon immediate and painless method death not insert soem other form and ethnic and minority groups have been killed mutilated and exterminated through out history guess was not unusual you would agree that the holocost would allowed under the constitution far the punishment doubt they recieved what would considered fair trial standards don sure look what happened japanese citizens the during world war you prepared say let round these people and stick them concentration camp without trial only short step gassing them without trial after all seems that the nazis originally only intended imprison the jews the final solution was dreamt partly because they couldn afford run the camps because the devastation caused goering total war those who weren gassed generally died malnutrition disease mathew
alt.atheism	atheist dbstu benedikt rosenau writes article mantis tony lezard tony mantis writes deletion opinion that the strong atheist position requires too much belief for comfortable with any strong atheists out there care comment humans just come with the idea spiritual parent one the artifacts human thought the evidence for that quite overwhelming and the information content the conceived vanishing other words there were gods they would hardly make sense and possible explain the phenomenon religion without gods the concept useless and don have introduce new assumptions order show that leap faith required for your mileage may vary yes fully agree with that but don believe gods exist believe gods exist mandtbacka finabo abo mats andtbacka pointed out all hinges what you take the word believe mean unfortunately this bound the definitions strong and weak atheism least according the faq atheism characterized absence belief the existence god some atheists further and believe that god does not exist the former often referred the weak atheist position and the latter strong atheism important note the difference between these two positions weak atheism simple scepticism disbelief the existence god strong atheism positive belief that god does not exist please not fall into the trap assuming that all atheists are strong atheists from mathew introduction atheism version last modified apr should the faq clarified try pin down this notion belief can tony lezard tony mantis tony mantis uknet things like tony mantis nsfnet relay last resort arl phx cam pgp public key available request
alt.atheism	political atheists mccullou snake wisc edu mark mccullough writes think you mean circular not recursive but that semantics recursiveness has problems just horribly inefficient just ask any assembly programmer tail recursive functions scheme are least efficient iterative loops anyone who doesn program assembler will have heard optimizing compilers mathew
alt.atheism	anecdote about islam edu jaeger buphy edu writes deletia don understand the point this petty sarcasm basic principle islam that one born muslim one says testify that there god but god and mohammad prophet god that long one does not explicitly reject islam word then one must considered muslim all muslims the phenomenon you attempting make into general rule psychology direct odds with basic islamic principles you want attack islam you could better than than argue against something that islam explicitly contradicts the deletions somewhere mentioned something about chopping off hands being punishment for theft saudi arabia assuming this wouldn know and assuming done people fitting your requirement for muslim which find highly likely then would you please try convince bobby mozumder that muslims chop people hands off come back when you succeeded disclaimer great young and insane
alt.atheism	fundamental contradiction was visit from jws jbrown batman bmd trw com writes will self determination other words god created conscious beings who have the ability choose between moral choices independently god all will therefore free will the above probably not the most representative paragraph but thought hop anyway what strikes self contradicting the fable lucifer fall which the way seem recall more speculation than based biblical text but rcism may showing that benedikt pointed out lucifer had perfect nature yet had the free will choose evil but where did that choice come from know from genesis that eve was offered opportunity sin tempter which many assume was satan but how did lucifer discover invent create call the action what you will something that god had not given origin also where the bible there mention lucifer free will make big fuss about mankind having free will but strikes being after the fact rationalisation and fact like salvation not one that all christians believe identically least mind salvation and free will are very tightly coupled but then theology was roman catholic still how theologian explain lucifer fall lucifer had perfect nature did man how could fall how could execute act that contradicted his nature and effect cause evil exist for the first time lucio lucio proxima alt tab stops four
alt.atheism	atheist tony lezard tony mantis writes opinion that the strong atheist position requires too much belief for comfortable with any strong atheists out there care comment far can tell strong atheists are far outnumbered alt atheism weak atheists the cost repudiating the faq think too much made the strong weak atheism issue although the context alt atheism where continually attacked the basis that strong atheists believe the non existence god think the separation valid one cover arse what trying say that there infinitely grey area between weak and strong well between strong and the unattainable mathematical atheism wish whereas logically can only support the weak atheist position effect strong atheist and wish could mathematical one justify strong atheist position believe need only show that the evidence presented favour any the gods under scrutiny faulty read the faq correctly argument for the existence god generic represented mainstream theologians has ever been found unassailable this adequate evidence that the real god undefinable least definition has yet been found watertight which turn accept sufficient base disbelief each and every conceivable god little fuzzy the edges though opinions are welcome but perhaps should change the thread subject lucio lucio proxima alt tab stops four
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie anecdote about islam jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes why would the rushdie case particularly legitimate said elsewhere this issue rushdie actions had effects islamic countries that not simple say that didn commit crime islamic country actually simple person has committed crime country was within the borders the time when was committed doesn matter the physical manifestation outside for instance hack into nasa ames research lab and delete all their files have committed crime the united kingdom the authorities wish prosecute under law rather than law they have automatic right this why the net authorities the tried put pressure some sites holland holland had anti cracking legislation and was viewed hacker haven some system administrators similarly company called red hot television broadcasting pornographic material which can received britain they were broadcasting britain they would committing crime but they are not they are broadcasting from denmark the british government powerless anything about spite the apparent law breaking course not lawyer could wrong more confusingly could right some countries but not others mathew
alt.atheism	anecdote about islam article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes cases prostitution both the man and the prostitute would punished public quite severely deletion gregg you cannot say lenient and punishes severely public unless course one the exceptions implied almost all matters that depends the statistics and who punished public some power for example nothing islamic about allows men rape women five times before blowing the rapist head off public then call that leniency wouldn you you have given that example not lenient end argument and chopping off the hands heads people not lenient either rather appears that you are internalized the claims about the legal system without checking they suit the description and wasn the argument that takes five men rape woman according islamic law while don approve think both the prostitute and the customer have the right what they other words punishing them violation their rights and punish them severely public just another pointer the hysteria connected with sexuality many religions believe what you like even believe what don like can you give better answers than that have you got any evidence for your probably opposite claims this case don see why should accept the complex ridden views oriental goatherd yes forget that the west historically much without sexual neurosis oriental goatherd really intellectual fact memory serves and most will see the connection between the primitive machism the orient and islam people agree having sex fine and would assume that god would have clue what the detrimental effects supressing are huh ever heard aids course you probably say that god must evil because allows the disease exist bla bla usually you miss the point aids neither spread only through sex nor necessarily spread having sex futher the point very important point the urge for sex stronger than the fear aids even stronger than the religious attempts channel forbid sex the consequences suppressing sex are worse than the consequences aids please note that the idea that everybody would end with aids when sex not controlled completely counterfactual and since you have brought the point your god evil not benedikt
alt.atheism	biblical rape article apr watson ibm com strom watson ibm com rob strom writes article dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes didn have time read the rest the posting but had respond this absolutely not messianic jew another mistake sorry should have read alt messianic more carefully benedikt
alt.atheism	soc motss princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts article apr midway uchicago edu shou midway uchicago edu writes article dhinn dsi dsinc com perry dsinc com jim perry writes bigots never concede that their bigotry irrational other people who determine that examining their arguments expected you set yourself wonderful little world where bigot whomever you say this very comfortable for you imagine never having entertain argument against your belief system simply accuse the person making being bigot well this particular thread vituperation slopped its venom over into alt atheism where spend most our time entertaining arguments against our belief system without resorting accusing others bigotry somewhat ironic that our exposure bigotry happens this instance have originated rec scouting since always understood scouting teach tolerance and diversity understand bigotry irrational prejudice against other people who happen different race religion ethnic background sex other inconsequential characteristics all the evidence seen indicates that sexual orientation and lack belief gods are exactly such inconsequential characteristics thus pending further evidence conclude that those who show prejudice against such people are bigots and organizations that exclude such people are discriminatory jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours
alt.atheism	americans and evolution article tinn senator bedfellow mit edu bobs thnext mit edu robert singleton writes deletion will argue that your latter statement believe that gods exist does rest upon faith that you are making positive statement that gods exist strong atheism rather than merely saying don know and therefore don believe them and don not believe then weak atheism once again not believe god different than saying believe that god does not exist still maintain the position even after reading the faqs that strong atheism requires faith the way usually used view you are saying here that driving car requires faith that the car drives for conclusion and have more faith than have the premises and the argument used but first let say the following might have language problem here regards faith and existence christian maintain that god does not exist exist means have being space and time god does not have being god being kierkegaard once said that god does not exist eternal with this said feel rather pointless debate the called existence god and that not what doing here believe that god the source and ground being when you say that god does not exist also accept this statement but obviously mean two different things however what follows will use the phrase the existence god usual sense and this the sense that think you are using would like clarification upon what you mean the existence god that word game the term god used different way usually when you use different definition your thing but until commonly accepted you would have say the way define god and that does not exist existence itself say does not exist interestingly there are those who say that existence exists one the indubitable statements possible further saying god existence either waste time existence already used and there need replace god you are implying more with which case your definition and your argument far are incomplete making fallacy deletion one can never prove that god does does not exist when you say that you believe god does not exist and that this opinion based upon observation will have ask what observtions are you refering there are observations pro con that are valid here establishing positive belief deletion where does that follow aren observations based the assumption that something exists and wouldn you say there level definition that the assumption god meaningful not would reject that concept anyway where your evidence for that god meaningful some level benedikt
alt.atheism	morality constant was biblical rape this frayed thread has turned into patented alt atheism ping pong game and don have any strong disagreement try stick the one thing don quite follow about the argument seems that there contradiction arguing that the bible was enlightened for its times closer what would consider morally good based our standards and past experience the one hand hope this summarizes this argument adequately and the other hand article apr watson ibm com strom watson ibm com rob strom writes article phpe inn dsi dsinc com perry dsinc com jim perry writes disclaimer speaking from the jewish perspective where the bible means what many call the old testament and where the interpretation not necessarily the raw text but instead the court cases commentaries and traditions passed down through jewish communities this seems the crux you judge the bible according long line traditions and interpretations coming down the current day rather than its own merits cultural artifact then course will correspond more closely with more contemporary values but that how the bible actually being used today shouldn that how should judge most people use scissors cut paper shouldn consumer reports test scissors for paper cutting ability even though scissors may have been designed originally cut cloth that possibly good way judge the use the bible teaching jewish morality today but hardly seems fair claim that this highly interpreted version what was enlightened for its times attempt extend the analogy this like saying that the original scissor makers were unusually advanced paper cutting for their times even though they only ever cut cloth and had never even heard paper not arguing that the bible disgusting though some the history depicted modern standards however history full similar abuses and don think the biblical accounts are worse than their contemporaries possibly ours the other hand don know any reason think the history described the bible shows less abuse than their contemporaries ours that complex and benign moral traditions have evolved based particular mythic interpretations that history interesting but still don think fair take that long tradition interpretation and use attack condemnation the original history jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours
alt.atheism	political atheists mathew mathew mantis writes for rape surely there the burden guilt solely the rapist unless you force someone live with the rapist against his will which case part the responsibility yours sorry but can accept that unless the rapist was hypnotized something view him solely responsible for his actions not necessarily especially the rapist known such for instance you intentionally stick your finger into loaded mousetrap and get snapped whose fault keith
alt.atheism	islamic authority over women article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes one thing that relates among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because the love their mom makes for more virile men compare that with how homos are raised study and you will get point bobby you priceless did ever tell you that policy with bobby posts should anyone give damn flick through the thread high speed searching for posts bobby which have generated whole pile followups then and extract the hilarious quote inevitably present for sig purposes works for for the guy who said just arrived and asked whether bobby for real you betcha welcome alt atheism and rest assured that gets worse have few pearls wisdom from bobby which reproduce below anyone keith keeping big file such stuff allah infinite wisdom the universe was created from nothing just saying and became therefore allah exists bobby mozumder proving the existence allah wait you just said that humans are rarely reasonable doesn that contradict atheism where everything explained through logic and reason this the contradiction atheism that proves false bobby mozumder proving the existence allah plus the believer would contradictory the quran for allah not exist bobby mozumder proving the existence allah and now one thing that relates among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because the love their mom makes for more virile men compare that with how homos are raised study and you will get point bobby mozumder being islamically rigorous alt atheism mmmmm quality and quantity from the new voice islam pbuh cheers simon simon clippingdale simon dcs warwick department computer science tel university warwick fax coventry
alt.atheism	soc motss princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts article apr cbnewsl att com stank cbnewsl att com stan krieger writes the point has been raised and has been answered roger and have clearly stated our support the bsa position the issue specifically that homosexual behavior constitutes violation the scout oath specifically the promise live morally straight please define morally straight and don even try saying that straight used here implies only hetersexual behavior straight the slang word opposite gay this alot like family values everyone talking about them but misteriously one knows what they are one thing that relates among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because the love their mom makes for more virile men bobby mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu april the one true muslim left the world
alt.atheism	soc motss princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts article apr cbnewsl att com stank cbnewsl att com stan krieger writes roger and have clearly stated our support the bsa position the issue specifically that homosexual behavior constitutes violation the scout oath specifically the promise live morally straight there really nothing else discuss apparently not response his claim that terrifies gay people not able indoctrinate children our lifestyle words that effect sent roger very calm carefully written detailed letter explaining simply why the bsa policy does indeed terrify did not use inflammatory language and left myself extremely open for answer thus far have not received answer can conclude only that roger considers his position either indefensible simply not worth defending trying cloud the issue with comparisons blacks other minorities also meaningless because like comparing apples oranges people can control their race but they can control their behavior fact that exactly the point people can control their behavior because that fact there need for blanket ban homosexuals what else there possibly discuss rec scouting this issue you tell tim pierce usted tele madre twpierce unix amherst edu del asesino que graciosa bitnet twpierce amherst pedro almodovar
alt.atheism	biblical rape article apr watson ibm com strom watson ibm com rob strom writes deletion the thread biblical rape was initiated david hunt here his posting article feu xsf kpc andrew cmu edu david hunt bluelobster cmu edu writes pretty sure seen biblical rules for when allowable rape prisoners what the codes are about that etc could some more knowledgable soul than please let know some references asked very narrow question and gave very narrow answer yes sorry have got that wrong apology deletion david hunt post didn mention god nor did response you were the first bring the idea the bible being given god most jews don believe this any literal sense fun but must have met the minority then and given god refers any action whereby god god causes better effects something rob not intimate with jewish theology but understand that you are messianic jew correct wrong but appears that the views messianic jews metaphysics different that the majority jews while jewish theology overall quite distinct from the christianic god views have heard that possible for jews attribute evil their god for christians the bible still seen effect the interaction some god with man deletion thought agreed that though jews disagree there are set core beliefs that they agree upon one which that the commandments are accessible and written the language the time and another which that there must legal system update them the context was metaphysics even when the process adapting the commandments not transcendent the justification the process lie metaphysic specualtion wonder how you break out the shackles having metaphysics your system deletion could you explain this with respect the original commandments being discussed that the commandment that says you feel like raping woman prisoner you should instead wait and marry her what about the way this commandment given invalidates book that commands commit genocide among other reprehensible deeds the context repulsive and foul play imo invoke some relatively enlightened passages example for the content the whole book big deletion the point that see that there necessary connection between the theology you use and the interpretation the bible only very loosely interpretation the bible based long tradition jewish scholars interpreting the bible theology doesn really enter into there are jewish atheists who interpret the laws charity essentially the same way not the interpretation some laws but the interpretation the bible the example that sodom and gomorrha mean argue with god the whole idea that metaphorically and yet allows you argue with god whatever that means that alone theo logic question proof theology used you pose another metaphysical riddle you well you wrote this fine have some major spirit with neither absolute power nor absolute knowledge and appears limited means will communicate with some form spiritual big friend you admit that using god this context somewhat unusual right the assumption that cannot have created the universe well and that the passages the bible referring that its omnipotence are crap that what meant the riddle important question the light what for instance the passage witrh sodom and gomorrha means either there some connection between the text the fact that exists and your interpretation purely arbitrary further the question why has one carry the burden biblical texts when one could simply write other books that convey the message better you might answer that one can becuase some peculiar biblical information might lost but that holds true every other book and the question remains why has the bible still special place can replaced somehow bargain the dangerous content the bible against some other message that included well deletion you see the danger doing especially with the metaphers used the bible think the danger doing less than either the danger having frozen system laws having laws sorry but there are worse systems does not say anything about one could not have better system deletion read two stories about the importance helping the poor and one god spirit and the other god has body which more important helping the poor resolving the contradiction about the corporeal nature god read two stories the bible one that god commands people kill children for being idolaters and another where god kills children directly what more important resolve the message that children are killed has done god and the argument you have given fallacy while may not important the context you have given find out god corporeal not can crucial other questions religious believers resolve contradictions with that they choose one the possibilities given arbitrary way and have the advantage being able attribute their decision some god one cannot resolve questions the statement what good when what good depends the question benedikt
alt.atheism	atheist article epvk mantis tony lezard tony mantis writes deletion other words there were gods they would hardly make sense and possible explain the phenomenon religion without gods the concept useless and don have introduce new assumptions order show that yes fully agree with that but don believe gods exist believe gods exist mandtbacka finabo abo mats andtbacka pointed out all hinges what you take the word believe mean for believe gods exist and don believe gods exist other words think that statements like gods are somehow interfere with this world are false meaningless ontology one can fairly conclude that when exist meaningless does not exist under the pragmatic definition truth exists meaningless makes exist even logically false problem with such statements that one can disprove subjective god definition and there might cases where subjective god would even make sense the trouble with most god definitions that they include some form objective existence with the consequence the gods affecting all believers derive from right interfere with the life others deletion should the faq clarified try pin down this notion belief can honestly don see the problem benedikt
alt.atheism	why sex only allowed marriage rationality was islamic marriage mar ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes case that everything wrong the world will end people start believing islam and that horrors mankind are all caused the lack belief atheism for the last time bobby lack belief your god does not imply atheism just because some moslems aren moral does not mean they don believe god named allah although their allah may not the things your allah does moslem says she believes that god exists she theist though maybe not true follower islam murder victims year caused atheism poverty massive hate crimes such low respect for the human body distrust among people everything wrong all caused atheism peace jerk bobby mozumder sami aario can you see measure atom yet you can explode tut one sunlight comprised many atoms your stupid minds stupid stupid eros plan from outer space disclaimer don agree with eros
alt.atheism	motto mania mathew writes prefer mark jason dominus suggestion that the motto should changed mind your own fucking business this era aids isn someone fucking everyone interest semi propose have motto recently the glorious state maryland the only state whose state song refers abraham lincoln tyrant people have gotten all wound over the state motto which inherited from the calverts fatti maschii parole femine which you read italian says manly deeds womanly words something that effect the state which not long ago had four women out seven representatives this represents problem the official solution was change the translation now means strong deeds gentle words personal suggestion was changing walk softly and carry big stick wingate the peace god peace but strife closed the sod mangoe umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace god
alt.atheism	visit from the jehovah witnesses good grief the amount energy being spent one lousy syllogism says volumes for the true position reason this group wingate the peace god peace but strife closed the sod mangoe umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace god
alt.atheism	benediktine metaphysics benedikt rosenau writes with great authority contradictory cannot exist contradictory property language correct this things defined contradictory language not exist will object definitions reality you then amend things described contradictory language not exist then come something which plainly false failures description are merely failures description not objectivist remember wingate the peace god peace but strife closed the sod mangoe umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace god
alt.atheism	gospel dating then you require the same amount evidence believe that own pair bluejeans and have superhuman powers well could use the argument that some here use about nature and claim that you cannot have superhuman powers because you are human superhuman powers are beyond what human has and since you are human any powers you have are not beyond those human hence you cannot have superhuman powers sound good you anyway the evidence question depends the context this group since you are posting from american college site willing take given that you have pair blue jeans and assuming there some coherency your position will take given that you not have superhuman powers arguments are evidence themselves some respects when you say the existence sic jesus assume that you mean just the man without any special powers etc yep many will agree that very possible that man called jesus did fact live fact willing agree that there was some man named jesus have reason believe that there wasn ever man good however most the claims are extradinary virgin birth virgin the sense not having any sexual intercourse resurection son god etc those claims require extra evidence extra evidence why don start with evidence all cannot see any evidence for the which the cynics this group would ever accept for the second the foundation the religion anyone who claims have seen the risen jesus back the day period believer and therefore discounted those this group since these are all ancients anyway one again choose dismiss the whole thing the third much metaphysical relationship anything else even those who agree have argued length over what means again don see how evidence possible thus interpret the extraordinary claims claim statement that the speaker will not accept any evidence the matter wingate the peace god peace but strife closed the sod mangoe umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace god
alt.atheism	remarkable admission jon livesey writes certainly not going attempt distinguish between different flavours christian all loudly claiming the one true christian well obvious that you don attempt otherwise you would aware that they don all loudly claim the one true christian tried avoid using the phrase not christian because these ownership issues instead tried the phrase nicene christianity attempt identify the vast majority christianity which has roughly similar viewpoints the core theological issues the jws not fall within this group and fact espouse position known arianism which rejected all the nicene churches and virtually everyone else well wingate the peace god peace but strife closed the sod mangoe umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace god
alt.atheism	gospel dating benedikt rosenau writes the argument goes follows oid quotes appear john but not the almost codified way they were matthew luke however they are considered similar enough point knowledge such and not entirely different source assuming you are presenting accurately don see how this argument really leads any firm conclusion the material john not sure exactly what referred here but take for granted the similarity the matt luke material different hence one could have almost any relationship between the two right john getting straight from jesus mouth are talking date texts here not the age the authors the usual explanation for the time order mark matthew and luke does not consider their respective ages says matthew has read the text mark and luke that matthew and probably that mark the version the usual theory have heard has matthew and luke independently relying mark and one would think that luke relied matthew wouldn have the grating inconsistencies the geneologies for one thing assumed that john knew the content luke text the evidence for that not overwhelming admittedly this the part that particularly new were possible that you could point reference grateful unfortunately haven got the info hand was think the late early and was possibly old when they are from about why they shed doubt the order putting john after the rest the three because closes the gap between supposed writing and the existing copy quit bit the further away from the original the more copies can written and therefore survival becomes more probable and don think one step removed source that bad luke and mark and matthew learned their stories directly from diciples then really cannot believe the sort big transformation from jesus gospel that some people posit news reports one generally gets better information than this and john diciple then there nothing more said that john was disciple not generally accepted the style and language together with the theology are usually used counterargument not really impressed with the theology argument but really pointing this out and pointed out earlier one cannot make these arguments about peter see reason not accept authentic letter one step and one generation removed bad even our times compare that reports similar events our century almost illiterate societies the best analogy would reporters talking the participants which not bad other words one does not know what the original mark did look like and arguments based mark are pretty weak but the statement divinity not that section and any case agreed that the most important epistles predate mark wingate the peace god peace but strife closed the sod mangoe umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace god
alt.atheism	yeah right benedikt rosenau writes and what about that revelation thing charley you talking about this intellectual engagement revelation well obviously risk one takes many people say that the concept metaphysical and religious knowledge contradictive not objectivist not particularly impressed with problems conceptualization the problem this case least bad that trying explain quantum mechanics and relativity the terms ordinary experience one can get some rough understanding but the language from the perspective ordinary phenomena inconsistent and from the perspective what being described rather inexact charitable analogous situation supposedly obtains metaphysics the problem that the better descriptive language not available and case holds reliable information can you show how you establish that this word reliable essentially meaningless the context unless you can show how reliability can determined wingate the peace god peace but strife closed the sod mangoe umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace god
alt.atheism	radical agnostic not article apr cnsvax uwec edu nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye wrote reply zazen austin ibm com welbon there means that can possibly think prove beyond doubt that god does not exist but anyone has one all means tell what therefore lacking this ability absolute proof being atheist becomes act faith and itself and this cannot accept accept nothing blind faith invisible pink flying unicorns need say more harbor beliefs all there good evidence for god existing not some folks call this agnosticism does not suffer from blind faith all think don worry happy for many atheists the lack belief gods secondary epistemological consideration what accept reliable way knowing there are known valid logical arguments for the existence gods nor there any empirical evidence that they exist most philosophers and theologians agree that the idea god one that must accepted faith faith belief without sound logical basis empirical evidence reliable way knowing could you expand your definition knowing seems bit monolithic here but not sure that you intend that don need for example distinguish between knowing plus equals apples plus apples equals apples the french knowing that jerry lewis auteur and what means say know what socrates said this patently absurd but whoever wishes become philosopher must learn not frightened absurdities bertrand russell like this epigraph perhaps the issue learning which any absurdities merit further exploration gene
alt.atheism	political atheists bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes personal objection that find capital punishment cruel and unusual punishment under all circumstances can painless isn cruel and has occurred frequently since the dawn time hardly unusual don take issue with the numbers single innocent life taken one too many but innocents die due many causes why have you singled out accidental false execution the one take issue with keith
alt.atheism	yeah right article mimsy umd edu mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes for several years periodically asked charley wingate explain this mythical alternative rationality which propounds enthusiastically when pops every few months his reluctance explain indicates that not hot said enough times that there alternative that should think you might have caught now and there alternative but the point rationality isn alternative either the problems metaphysical and religious knowledge are unsolvable should say humans cannot solve them there truly alternative then you have basis whatsoever for your claim the usual line here which you call prejudgment atheism and dispute that reason all have here you admit that you have alternative possible basis for the claim that there anything other than reason that reason inapplicable religious knowledge except possibly that reason conflicts with religious knowledge this sounds very much like can provide rational defense for belief but prefer discard rationality rather than accept that may false hope makes you happy but your repeated and unfounded assertions this effect don advance your cause jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours
alt.atheism	yeah right article mimsy umd edu mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes benedikt rosenau writes and what about that revelation thing charley you talking about this intellectual engagement revelation well obviously risk one takes now here the core question let suggest scenario will grant that god exists and uses revelation communicate with humans said revelation taking the form paraphrased from your own words this infinitely powerful deity grabs some poor schmuck makes him take dictation and then hides away for few hundred years now there exists human who has not personally experienced revelation this person observes that not only these revelations seem contain elements that contradict rather strongly aspects the observed world which all this person has ever seen but there are many mutually contradictory claims revelation now based this can this person blamed for concluding absent personal revelation their own that there almost certainly nothing this revelation thing not objectivist not particularly impressed with problems conceptualization the problem this case least bad that trying explain quantum mechanics and relativity the terms ordinary experience one can get some rough understanding but the language from the perspective ordinary phenomena inconsistent and from the perspective what being described rather inexact charitable analogous situation supposedly obtains metaphysics the problem that the better descriptive language not available absent this better language and absent observations support the claims revelation can one blamed for doubting the whole thing here what driving have thought long time about this have come the honest conclusion that there deity nothing like the ones proposed any religion that familiar with now there does happen say christian god will held accountable for such honest mistake sincerely ray ingles ingles engin umich edu the meek can have the earth the rest are going the stars robert heinlein
alt.atheism	ancient islamic rituals pkqe inn lynx unm edu cfaehl vesta unm edu chris faehl writes article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes deleted get the point therefore nutshell opinion that pre marital sex makes the likelihood extra marital sex more probable furthermore opinion extra marital sex helps break down partnerships and leads greater divorce rates this turn opinion creates trauma and less stable environment for children who are then opinion more likely grow with psychological problems such depression etc and thus sex outside marriage the long run harmful society think that you are drawing links where there are none having sex before marriage has nothing with adultery once committed into marriage the issue see more how committed you are not foisting pain your spouse and how confident you are about yourself addition what someone does within their marriage their own business not mine and not yours have witnessed strong relationships that incorporate extra marital sex would agree with your assertion about children children should not witness such confusing relationships adultery stressful adults which assume general how can expect children understand where the evidence for opinions the moment there are just generalities can cite for example read that the century the percentage youth and people general who suffer from depression has been steadily climbing western societies probably what was reading referred particularly the usa similarly one can detect trend towards greater occurrence sex outside marriage this century western societies particularly with the sexual revolution the but even before that think otherwise the sexual revolution the would not have been possible particularly with the gradual weakening christianity and consequently christian moral teachings against sex outside marriage propose that these two trends greater level general depression society and other psychological problems and greater sexual promiscuity are linked with the latter being prime cause the former cannot provide any evidence beyond this this stage but the whole thesis seems very reasonable and request that people ponder upon why more reasonable than the trend towards obesity and the trend towards depression you can just pick your two favorite trends notice correlation them and make sweeping statement generality mean you can and people have but that does not mean that valid reasonable thesis best gross oversimplification the push pull factors people experience argument mainly proposal what think plausible argument against extra marital sex one which personally believe has some truth main purpose for posting here show that plausible argument can made against extra marital sex this stage not saying that this particular viewpoint proven anything like that just that plausible try convince you all this particular point view would probably have lot work researching what has been done this field etc order gather further evidence which simply not have time now also note that said that think extra marital sex prime cause opinion the generally greater levels psychological problems especially depression western societies not saying the prime cause the only cause just prime cause one the significant contributions this trend think when you say you think view simplistic you have forgotten this admit that there are probably other factors but think that extra marital sex and imo subsequent destabilization the family significant factor the rise psychological problems like depression western society this century fred rice darice yoyo monash edu
alt.atheism	ancient islamic rituals ednclark kraken ednclark kraken itc edu jeffrey clark writes cfaehl vesta unm edu chris faehl writes why more reasonable than the trend towards obesity and the trend towards depression you can just pick your two favorite trends notice correlation them and make sweeping statement generality mean you can and people have but that does not mean that valid reasonable thesis best gross oversimplification the push pull factors people experience basically the social interactions all the changing factors our society are far too complicated for control just have hold the panic handles and hope that are heading for soft landing but one things for sure depression and the destruction the nuclear family not due solely sex out marriage note that never said that depression and the destruction the nuclear family due solely extra marital sex specifically said that was prime cause this not the prime cause the only cause this recognize that there are probably other factors too but think that extra marital sex and subsequent destabilization the family probably significant factor the rise psychological problems including depression the west the century fred rice darice yoyo monash edu
alt.atheism	why sex only allowed marriage rationality was islamic marriage apr proxima alt lucio proxima alt lucio writes darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes point view that the argument all sexism bad just simply does not hold let give you example how about permitting woman temporarily leave her job due pregnancy should that allowed happens sexist gives particular right only women nevertheless despite the fact that sexist completely support such law because think just fred you exasperating sexism like racialism form discrimination using obvious physical cultural differences deny one portion the population the same rights another this context your example above holds water whatsoever there discrimination denying men maternity leave fact quite convinced that were anyone experiment with male pregnancy would possible for such future father take leave medical grounds okay argued this thoroughly about weeks ago men and women are different physically physiologically and psychologically much recent evidence for this statement present the book brainsex anne moir and david jessel recommend you find copy and read their book overview recent scientific research this topic and well referenced now women and men are different some ways the law can only adequately take into account their needs these areas where they are different also taking into account the ways which men and women are different maternity leave example this takes into account that women get pregnant does not give women the same rules would give men because treat women like treats men this instance would unjust this just simply obvious example where men and women are intrinsically different now people make the naive argument that sexism oppression however maternity leave sexist because men not get pregnant men not have the same access leave that women not the same extent degree and therefore sexist matter however much man wants get pregnant and have maternity leave never can and therefore the law sexist man can have access maternity leave matter how hard tries get pregnant hope this clear maternity leave example where sexist law just because the sexism here just reflects the sexism nature making men and women different there are many other differences between men and women which are far more subtle than pregnancy and find out more these recommend you have look the book brainsex your point that perhaps some day men can also pregnant fallacious men can one day become pregnant will having biologically become women have womb and the other factors required for pregnancy usually wrapped the definition what woman your argument when examined seen fallacious you are saying that men can have the sexist maternity leave privilege that women can have they also become women which actually just supports statement that maternity leave sexist the discrimination comes when woman denied opportunities because her legally determined sexual inferiorities understand most religious sexual discrimination and doubt that islam exceptional the female not allowed into the priestly caste and general subjugated that she has aspirations rights which equal human she ought entitled there official priesthood islam much this function taken islamic scholars there are female islamic scholars and female islamic scholars have always existed islam example from early islamic history the prophet widow aisha who was recognized her time and recognized our time islamic scholar matter how sweetly you coat part the role religions seems historically have served the function oppressing the female whether forcing her procreate the extent where there opportunity for self improvement denying her access the same facilities the males are offered you have evidence for your blanket statement about all religions and dispute could and about women islam etc but recently reposted something here under the heading islam and women still your news site suggest you read reposted from soc religion islam has disappeared from alt atheism still might soc religion islam forgot what its original title was though will email you you like the roman catholic church the most blatant the culprit because they actually istitutionalised celibate clergy but the other religious are different let woman attempt escape her role child bearer and the wrath god descends her your statement that other religions are different think statement based simply lack knowledge about religions other than christianity and perhaps judaism accept your affirmation that islam grants women the same rights men when you can show that any muslim woman can aspire the same position say khomeini and there are artificial religious social obstacles her path achieve this aisha who mentioned earlier was not only islamic scholar but also was one stage military leader show the equivalent hillary rhodam clinton within islam and may consider discussing the issue with you the prophet first wife who died just before the hijra the prophet journey from mecca medina was successful businesswoman lucio you cannot make strong case for your viewpoint when your viewpoint based ignorance about world religions fred rice darice yoyo monash edu
alt.atheism	ancient islamic rituals dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes there has been some discussion the pros and cons about sex outside marriage personally think that part the value having lasting partnerships between men and women that this helps provide stable and secure environment for children grow deletion addition chris faehl post what about homosexuals well from islamic viewpoint homosexuality not the norm for society cannot really say much about the islamic viewpoint homosexuality not something have done much research fred rice darice yoyo monash edu
alt.atheism	benediktine metaphysics article mimsy umd edu mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes benedikt rosenau writes with great authority contradictory cannot exist contradictory property language correct this things defined contradictory language not exist will object definitions reality you then amend things described contradictory language not exist then come something which plainly false failures description are merely failures description how about this description object that one time both euclidean square and euclidean circle hold that object satisfying this description could exist the description inconsistent and hence describes object that could not exist now suppose someone pointed bicycle and said that object one time both euclidean square and euclidean circle this does not mean that the bicycle does not exist measn that the description was incorrectly applied the atheist says the descriptions god that have been presented with are contradictory and hence describe something that cannot exist now your position far can gather that god exists but the descriptions atheists have been presented with are simply bad descriptions this roughly analogous someone who has never seen bicycle and when they ask for description from people who claim have seen one are told that euclidean circle square can they blamed for doubting rather strongly that this bicycle exists all not objectivist remember kidding sincerely ray ingles ingles engin umich edu the meek can have the earth the rest are going the stars robert heinlein
alt.atheism	islamic authority over women article apr dcs warwick simon dcs warwick simon clippingdale writes for the guy who said just arrived and asked whether bobby for real you betcha welcome alt atheism and rest assured that gets worse have few pearls wisdom from bobby which reproduce below anyone keith keeping big file such stuff sorry was but somehow have misplaced diskette from the last couple months however thanks the efforts bobby being replenished rather quickly here recent favorite satan and the angels not have freewill they what god tells them mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu satan and the angels not have freewill they what god tells them mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu
alt.atheism	visit from the jehovah witnesses good grief article mimsy umd edu mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes the amount energy being spent one lousy syllogism says volumes for the true position reason this group agree spend too much energy the nonexistance god satan and the angels not have freewill they what god tells them mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu
alt.atheism	evo homosexuality was princeton etc sorry bill had clear this there may good evolutionary arguments against homosexuality but these don qualify article vwn darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes wainwright eczcaw mips nott wrote deletions would seem odd homosexuality had any evolutionary function deletions every time man has sex with woman they intend produce children hmm wonder the world overpopulated obviously you keep the monty python song every sperm sacred and you say has purpose means limit population growth then your own arguement natural consider the context talking about evolutionary function one the most basic requirements evolution that members species procreate those who don have purpose that context guess all those social insects ants bees etc which have one breeding queen and whole passel sterile workers are the way out huh these days just ain true people can decide whether not have children and when soon they will able choose sex but that another arguement more lifestyle decision again your arguement since homosexuals can not choose not reproduce they must akin people who decide have sex but not children both are unnatural each other yet another non sequitur sex evolutionary function that exists for procreation that also recreation incidental that homosexuals don procreate means that sex only recreation and nothing more they serve evolutionary purpose refer you the bonobos species primate closeley related humans chimpanzees that very closely they have sex all the time homosexual well heterosexual when the group finds food they have sex before the sleep night they have sex after they escape from fight off prdators they have sex sex serves very important social function above and beyond reproduction this species species closely related humans there some indication that sex performs social function humans well but even not this shows that such function not impossible sincerely ray ingles ingles engin umich edu the meek can have the earth the rest are going the stars robert heinlein
alt.atheism	vonnegut atheism yesterday got the chance hear kurt vonnegut speak the university new hampshire vonnegut succeeded isaac asimov the honorary head the american humanist association vonnegut atheist and was asimov before asimov funeral vonnegut stood and said about asimov heaven now which ignited uproarious laughter the room from the people was speaking around the time the funeral the funniest thing could have possibly said room full humanists vonnegut said yesterday lecture vonnegut comes speak your university highly recommend going see him even you never read any his novels opinion the greatest living humorist greatest living humanist humorist well peace dana
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes should clarify what muslims usually mean when they say muslim general anyone who calls themselves muslim and does not outwardly profess something clear contradiction with the essential teachings islam considered muslim thus one who might things contrary islam through ignorance for example does not suddenly not become muslim one knowingly transgresses islamic teachings and essential principles though then one does leave islam you and bobby really need sit down and decide what exactly islam before posting here according zlumber one not muslim when one doing evil muslin can evil according him one who does evil suffering from temporary athiesm now would the members who claim muslims get their stories straight satan and the angels not have freewill they what god tells them mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu
alt.atheism	request for support article apr sei cmu edu dpw sei cmu edu david wood writes you must respond one his articles include within something similar the following please answer the questions posed you the charley challenges agreed satan and the angels not have freewill they what god tells them mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu
alt.atheism	bill conner article mlr darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes could you explain what any this pertains this position statement something typing practice and why are you using name you think this relates anything said and what bill could you explain what any the above pertains this position statement something typing practice satan and the angels not have freewill they what god tells them mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu
alt.atheism	soc motss princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts article jvigneau apr ulowell edu jvigneau ulowell edu joe vigneau writes anything the bsa has taught don know tolerance something before met this guy thought all gays were faries the bsa has taught antibigot could give much the same testimonial about experience scout back the the issue wasn gays but the principles were the same thanks for well put testimonial stan krieger and his kind who think this discussion doesn belong here and his intolerance the only acceptable position scouting should take notice the bsa has been hijacked the religious right but some the core values have survived spite the leadership and some scouts and former scouts haven given seeing testimonial like this reminds that scouting still worth fighting for cautionary note you must realize that your experience with this camp leader was the bsa you may putting him risk publicizing word could leak out the bsa gestapo bill mayne
alt.atheism	soc motss princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts wainwright eczcaw mips nott wrote jim always thought that homophobe was only word used act rallies didn beleive real people used let see agree the term definition homophobe one who actively and militantly attacks homosexuals because actually latent homosexual who uses his hostility conceal his true orientation since everyone who disapproves condemns homosexuality homophobe your implication clear must necessarily follow that all men are latent homosexuals bisexual the very least crap crap crap crap crap definition any type phobe comes from phobia irrational fear hence homophobe not only act meetings the word apparently general use now perhaps isn the bible wouldst thou prefer were communicate with thou bilespeak does arachnophobe have irrational fear being spider does agoraphobe have irrational fear being wide open space you understand english obviously someone who has phobia will react they will their best avoid and that not possible they will either strike out run away gaybashings occur because natural processes people who definately have homophobia will either run away from gay people cause them themselves violence isn that what said what are you taking issue with here your remarks are merely parenthetical mine and add nothing useful would seem odd homosexuality had any evolutionary function other than limiting population growth since evolution only occurs when the members one generation pass along their traits subsequent generations homosexuality evolutionary deadend take your usage the term homophobe the sense you seem intend then all men are really homosexual and evolution our species least going nowhere every time man has sex with woman they intend produce children hmm wonder the world overpopulated obviously you keep the monty python song every sperm sacred and you say has purpose means limit population growth then your own arguement natural consider the context talking about evolutionary function one the most basic requirements evolution that members species procreate those who don have purpose that context another point that the offspring each generation survive the participation both parents necessary family must exist since homosexuals not reproduce they cannot constitute family since the majority humankind part family homosexuality evolutionary abberation contrary nature you will well that true your own arguements homosexuals would have vanished years ago due non procreation also the parent from single parent families should put the babies out the cold now cos they must your arguement die your argument homosexuality genetically determined your second point you prove again that you have idea what context means talking about evolution the preservation the species the fundamental premise the whole process but gets worse since the overwhelming majority people actually prefer heterosexual relationship homosexuality social abberation well the homosexual eschews the biological imperative reproduce and then the social imperative form and participate the most fundamental social element the family but wait there more read the above expect you have least ten children now with the family growing these days sex less with procreation admittedly without there would one but more with pleasure pre pill and pre condom days you had sex there was the chance producing children these days just ain true people can decide whether not have children and when soon they will able choose sex but that another arguement more lifestyle decision again your arguement since homosexuals can not choose not reproduce they must akin people who decide have sex but not children both are unnatural each other yet another non sequitur sex evolutionary function that exists for procreation that also recreation incidental that homosexuals don procreate means that sex only recreation and nothing more they serve evolutionary purpose since homosexuals have come out the closet and have convinced some policy makers that they have civil rights they are now claiming that their sexuality preference life style orientation choice that should protected law now homosexuality mere choice and both contrary nature and anti social then perverse choice they have even less credibility than before they became prominent people are people are people who are you tell anyone else how live their life are you god fancy date here pretty obvious dodge you really think you said anything you just feel obligated respond every statement not telling anyone anything demonstrating that there are arguments against the practice homosexuality providing merely alternate lifestlye that are not homophobic that one can reasonably call perverse context even atheist can understand realize course that this comes dangerously close establishing value and that atheists are compelled object that basis but you are consistent you have case this regard characterize any opposition homosexuality homophobic ignore some very compelling arguments against the legitimization the homosexual life style but since the charge only intended intimidate really just demogoguery and not taken seriously fact jim there are far more persuasive arguments for suppressing homosexuality than those given but consider this start again crap all your arguments are based outdated ideals likewise the bible would any honest christian condemn the ten generations spawned bastard eternal damnation someone who crushes his penis either accidently not both are deuteronomy sure your comment pertains something but you disguised well can see what where did mention ideals out dated otherwise your arguments are very reactionary you have anything all contribute why homosexuals should excluded from participation scouting the reasons are the same those used restrict them from teaching their own logic homosexuals are deviates social and biological since any adult role model for child incumbent the parent ensure that the child isolated from those who would the child harm this case harm means primarily social though that could extended easily enough you show anyone who has sex way that everyone would describe normal and will take hat puma baseball cap you one man meat another man poison what has this got with anything would you pick single point that you find offensive and explain your objections would really like believe that you can discuss this issue intelligibly bill
alt.atheism	fluids liquids west next wam umd edu brian west writes deleted similar analogy can made with glass for those you who don know glass liquid ask your science teacher and does flow deleted your science teacher tells you glass liquid try get different science teacher glass supercooled fluid not liquid except very high temperatures the definition liquid includes readily takes the form its container let try more accurate here don want people think creationists now uucp uunet tektronix sail mikec cranford uunet tektronix sail labs tek com mikec principal troll arpa mikec sail labs tek com relay net resident skeptic csnet mikec sail labs tek com teklabs tektronix
alt.atheism	gospel dating article vyfu darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes keith ryan kmr cwru edu wrote wild and fanciful claims require greater evidence you state that one the books your room blue certainly not need much evidence believe than you were claim that there two headed leapard your bed and don mean male lover leotard keith the issue what truth then the consequences whatever proposition argued irrelevent the issue what are the consequences such and such true then truth irrelevent which disagree every proposition needs certain amount evidence and support before one can believe there are miriad factors for each individual are all different quite obviously require different levels evidence one pointed out one history important while fussr one may not believe comrade who states that owns five pairs blue jeans one would need more evidence than one lived the united states the only time such statement here would raise eyebrow the the individual always wear business suits etc the degree the effect upon the world and the strength the claim also determine the amount evidence necessary when determining the level evidence one needs most certainly relevent what the consequences the proposition are the consequences proposition irrelvent please explain why one would not accept the electro magnetic force attraction between two charged particles inversely proportional the cube their distance apart remember the consequences the law are not relevent then can not use experimental evidence disproof one the consequences the law incongruency between the law and the state affairs incongruency between this law and any other natural law they are irrelevent when theorizing about the truth the law given that any consequences proposition irrelvent including the consequence self contradiction contradiction with the state affiars how are ever able judge what true not let alone find the truth the way what truth please define before inserting the conversation please explain what truth truth think that anything ever known for certain even there truth could never possibly know were find the concept meaningless satan and the angels not have freewill they what god tells them mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu
alt.atheism	morality constant was biblical rape article jxd darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes there are couple things about your post and others this thread that are little confusing atheist one for whom all things can understood processes nature exclusively there need for any recourse divnity describe explain anything there purpose direction for any event beyond those required physics chemistry biology etc everything random nothing determnined this posts contains too many fallacies respond too the abolishment divinity requires the elimination freewill you have not shown this you have not even attempted however the existance omniscience being does eliminate freewill mortals posted over five months ago one has been able refute nor give any reasonable reasons against satan and the angels not have freewill they what god tells them mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu
alt.atheism	gospel dating article mimsy umd edu mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes deletion cannot see any evidence for the which the cynics this group would ever accept for the second the foundation the religion anyone who claims have seen the risen jesus back the day period believer and therefore discounted those this group since these are all ancients anyway one again choose dismiss the whole thing the third much metaphysical relationship anything else even those who agree have argued length over what means again don see how evidence possible cookies charlie the claims that jesus have been seen are discredited extraordinary claims that don match their evidence this case for one that the gospels cannot even agree was jesus who has been seen further there are zillions other spook stories and one would hardly consider others even religious context some evidence resurrection there have been more elaborate arguments made but looks they have not passed your post filtering thus interpret the extraordinary claims claim statement that the speaker will not accept any evidence the matter evidence the strict meaning there was actual evidence would probably part but the says nothing about the claims charlie have seen invisible pink unicorns your standards have evidence for ipus now benedikt
alt.atheism	contradictions article oys clj austin ibm com yoder austin ibm com stuart yoder writes then what would have with the universe you theists cannot understand that inside the universe and outside the universe are two different places put god outside the universe and you subtract from the ability interact with the inside the universe put inside the universe and you impose the rules physics god outside the universe things outside the universe not have the ability interact with the inside the universe therefore god cannot interact inside the universe has basis whatsoever you seem have positive knowledge about this corrallary the negation would contridict although not have complete model the physical rules governing the inside the universe expect that there are contradictory events likely destroy the fabric modern physics the other hand your notion omnipotent omniscient and infinitely benevolent god not subject physical laws you attempt explain this away describing being outside them beyond measurement beyond measurement means can have measurable effect reality cannot interact ergo your god irrelevant god beyond measure beyond measurement means can have measurable effect reality therefore god cannot have measurable effect reality has basis whatsoever corrallary the negation would contradict satan and the angels not have freewill they what god tells them mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu
alt.atheism	ontology was benediktine metaphysics article mimsy umd edu mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes contradictory cannot exist contradictory property language correct this things defined contradictory language not exist need correct stands said will object definitions reality you then amend things described contradictory language not exist then come something which plainly false failures description are merely failures description you miss the point entirely things defined contradictory language not exist though something existing might meant conclusions drawn from the description are wrong unless there the possibility find the described and draw conclusions from direct knowledge the described then another possibility drop the contradictory part but that implies that one can trust the concept presented and that one has not got doubt the source well not objectivist remember neither but either things are directly sensed which includes some form modelling the way they are used modelling using something contradictive modelling not approved wonder why remain with the question something contradictory can sensed contradictory important point that either one manages resolve the contradictions one forced not use refer the contradictory part drawing conclusions one will fall the garbage garbage out trap benedikt
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie references deleted move this new thread article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes article phkf inn dsi dsinc com perry dsinc com jim perry writes rushdie however understand muslim the fact that british citizen does not preclude his being muslim rushdie was atheist use local terminology not put words his mouth the time writing tsv and the time the fatwa february well was born muslim fairly certain was then muslim until explicitly renounces islam far know has never explicitly renounced islam though may have been extreme doubt about the existence god being muslim legal well intellectual issue according islam put simply possible not muslim not accept the charge apostacy because have never adult life affirmed any belief and what one has not affirmed one can not said have apostasized from the islam know states clearly that there can coercion matters religion the many muslims respect would horrified the idea that they belong their faith purely virtue birth and that person who freely chose not muslim could therefore put death salman rushdie good faith god satan paradise and hell all vanished one day fifteenth year when quite abruptly lost faith and afterwards prove new found atheism bought myself rather tasteless ham sandwich and partook for the first time the forbidden flesh the swine thunderbolt arrived strike down from that day this have thought myself wholly seculat person salman rushdie god trust think the rushdie affair has discredited islam more eyes than khomeini know there are fanatics and fringe elements all religions but even apparently moderate muslims have participated refused distance themselves from the witch hunt against rushdie yes think this true but there khomenei motivations are quite irrelevant the issue the fact the matter that rushdie made false statements fiction know but where the line between fact and fiction about the life mohammad only functional illiterate with absolutely conception the nature the novel could think such thing accept reluctantly from mobs pakistan but not from you what presented the fictional dream demented character cannot the wildest stretch the imagination considered reflection the actual mohammad what worse the novel doesn present the mahound mohammed character any worse light than secular histories islam particular there lewd misrepresentation his life that his wives that why few people rush his defense considered absolute fool for his writings the satanic verses don hold back considered apostate and blasphemer however not for his writing the satanic verses but for what people have accepted propagandistic version what contained that book have yet find one single muslim who has convinced that they have read the book some have initially claimed have done but none has shown more knowledge the book than superficial newsweek story might impart and all have made factual misstatements about events the book you wish understand the reasons behind this well has the origin the concept the satanic verses see the penguin paperback rafiq zakariyah called mohammad and the quran keep eye out for have counter proposal suggest that you see the viking hardcover salman rushdie called the satanic verses perhaps then you understand jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours
alt.atheism	visit from the jehovah witnesses article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes article twso ileaf com mukesh ileaf com mukesh prasad writes article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes article ainn matt ksu ksu edu strat matt ksu ksu edu steve davis writes bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes the earth evil because satan rules over this new one guess been while since witness bothered with are they implying that satan omniscient you might try tricking them into saying that satan all knowing and then use that statement show them how their beliefs are self contradictary satan not omniscient but does hold dominion over the earth according christian theology note not confused with theology what are the standard theologies who what created satan and why orthodox christian theology states that god created lucifer satan along with the other angels presumably because wanted beings celebrate glorify existence and life and thereby god along with him actually the whys and wherefores god motivations for creating the angels are not big issue within christian theology but god created lucifer with perfect nature and gave him along with the other angels free moral will lucifer was high angel perhaps the highest with great authority seems that his greatness caused him begin take pride himself and desire equal greater than god forgot his place created being exalted himself above god and thereby evil and sin entered creation actually the story goes that lucifer refused bow before man god commanded him lucifer was devoted god yeah there nothing genesis that says the snake was anything more than snake well talking one had legs the time too don think pointing out contradictions stories the best way show the error theology they think supernatural entity kicked the first humans out paradise because they bit into fruit that gave them special powers well they might not respond well reason and logic brian
alt.atheism	ancient islamic rituals article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes there has been some discussion the pros and cons about sex outside marriage where the evidence for opinions the moment there are just generalities can cite for example read that the century the percentage youth and people general who suffer from depression has been steadily climbing western societies probably what was reading referred particularly the usa similarly one can detect trend towards greater occurrence sex outside marriage this century western societies particularly with the sexual revolution the but even before that think otherwise the sexual revolution the would not have been possible particularly with the gradual weakening christianity and consequently christian moral teachings against sex outside marriage propose that these two trends greater level general depression society and other psychological problems and greater sexual promiscuity are linked with the latter being prime cause the former cannot provide any evidence beyond this this stage but the whole thesis seems very reasonable and request that people ponder upon fred rice muslim giving his point view darice yoyo monash edu think this big leap sex depression one example myself where sex depression but seriously promiscuity decline depression not and might more reasonable say depression promiscuity think depression more likely come from emotional problems relationships family job friends and promiscuity used escape since see marriage civil and religious bond rather than emotional bond don see problem with sex before not outside marriage long you have the same commitment and devotion what expected from married couple course this just opinion brian
alt.atheism	yeah right article mimsy umd edu mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes and what about that revelation thing charley you talking about this intellectual engagement revelation well obviously risk one takes see not rational but intellectual does madness qualify intellectual engagement too many people say that the concept metaphysical and religious knowledge contradictive not objectivist not particularly impressed with problems conceptualization the problem this case least bad that trying explain quantum mechanics and relativity the terms ordinary experience one can get some rough understanding but the language from the perspective ordinary phenomena inconsistent and from the perspective what being described rather inexact charitable exactly why science uses mathematics representation natural language not supposed replace the elaborate representation mathematical terminology nor supposed the truth opposed the representation gods religions ordinary language admittedly not every religion says but fancy side effect their inept representations are the eternal hassles between religions and allows for making experiments that will lead results that will agreed upon being similar show something similar religion analogous situation supposedly obtains metaphysics the problem that the better descriptive language not available with the effect that the models presented are useless and one can argue that the other way around namely that the only reason metaphysics still flourish because makes statements that can verified falsified showing that bogus and case holds reliable information can you show how you establish that this word reliable essentially meaningless the context unless you can show how reliability can determined haven you read the many posts about what reliability and how can acheived respectively determined benedikt
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law psilink com robert knowles psilink com writes date sat apr gmt from fred rice darice yoyo monash edu ivt cfj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes should british around blowing skyscrapers next don know you are doing but seems you are implying that the person accused blowing the wtc actually did and that islamic teachings have something with blowing the wtc wtc world trade centre which was the building that was blown think okay make some comments the person has only been accused innocent until proven guilty remember secondly there seem some holes his accusation that read about for instance they guy used that particular van blow the building and then back and claim his deposit back afterwards must incredibly stupid perhaps salamen was one those uneducated muslims hear much about nevertheless was apparently smart enough put together very sophisticated bomb doesn seem fit together somehow actually salameh was not the only person involved the other fellow was chemical engineer working for allied signal who had specifically studied explosive devices school believe not actually allow radical muslim types study things like this our universities much for the price freedom from what read the other fellow told salameh how put together over the phone the bomb was supposedly some sort sophisticated type put assume complicated sophisticated bomb together from instructions over the phone one must need some brains would expect despite this there have already been many attacks and threats against mosques and muslims the united states consequence his accusation have read now please tell where this happening live the and have heard very little about these mosque attacks there are many mosques houston texas and would like know what going can verify this the great jewish media conspiracy keeping from knowing about this the heard about the mosque attacks during the desert storm venture why quiet now maybe localized new jersey read this article the australian muslim times the newspaper weekly the australian muslim community this true perhaps one the muslims based north america they see this posting can elaborate islamic teachings teach against harming the innocent the qur explicitly teaches against harming innocents even times war the blowing the wtc and harming innocents therefore blatant contradiction islamic teachings this means absolutely nothing plenty people commit violence while following what they think are valid religious principles have seen people post many things here from the koran which could misinterpreted that the explanation you wish use uneducated muslim allow them harm idolators and unbelievers the first thing every muslim says that muslim could have done that because islam teaches against harming innocents and are supposed take you word that never happens what you think the consequence does allah strike them down before the alleged violence occurs course not muslims commit the violent act and then everyone hides behind verses the koran pretty hip that trick and even doubt that will come the trials defense that muslim and islam teaches not harm the innocent therefore the people who were killed must not have been innocent sure set off the bomb your honor but you must remember sir muslim allah all powerful allah would not have allowed this are you insulting religion great defense just admit that there are some incredibly stupid violent muslims the world and stop hiding from that fact does one any good deny only makes the more reasonable muslims look like they are protecting the bad ones can you see that don deny this fact the thrust argument here that salameh according law innocent has not been found guilty court law his guilt has not been established wrong for people make postings based this assumption islam teaches not harm innocents muslims who perhaps have not realized that islam teaches this perform such actions not because the teachings islam but rather spite and contradiction the teachings islam this important distinction should clarify what muslims usually mean when they say muslim general anyone who calls themselves muslim and does not outwardly profess something clear contradiction with the essential teachings islam considered muslim thus one who might things contrary islam through ignorance for example does not suddenly not become muslim one knowingly transgresses islamic teachings and essential principles though then one does leave islam the term muslim contrasted with min which means true believer however whether muslim reality min something known only god and perhaps that person himself you will not find the term min used very much muslims alt atheism because not known anybody except myself and god whether for example true believer not for example could just putting show here and reality believe something opposite what write here without anyone knowing thus when say muslims mean all those who outwardly profess follow islam whether practice they might ignorance transgress islamic teachings muslim not necessarily mean min true believer islam fred rice darice yoyo monash edu
alt.atheism	gospel dating mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes david wood writes extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence more seriously this just high falutin way saying don believe what you saying are you making meta argument here any case you are wrong think those invisible pink unicorns also the existence jesus not extradinary claim was responding the historical accuracy biblical claims which the existence jesus only one and one that was not even mentioned post you may want complain that the miracles attributed him constitute such claims and won argue otherwise but that different issue wrong that was exactly the issue back and read the context included within post and you see what mean now that done you the kindness responding your questions please the same for answer the charley challenges your claim that they are the did not did variety dishonest dodge that feel certain fools only one person dave wood
alt.atheism	and another thing mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes keith ryan writes you will ignore any criticism your logic any possible incongruenties your stance you will not answer any questions the validity any opinion and facts you state when have start saying that not what said and the response did there reason continue someone not going argue with version position then they cannot argued with but course your version your position has been included the charley challenges your claim above flat out lie further only last week you claimed that you might not answer the challenges because you were turned off included text which you want your context included articles not come think this contradiction has the makings new entry the next challenges post the way kept every bloody thing that you written related this thread and will only too pleased post any back position you seem have forgotten that you leave electronic paper trail the net this the usual theist approach matter how many times certain argument has been disproven shown non applicable non sequitur they keep cropping time after time speaking non sequiturs this has little with what just said and have some sauce for the goose some the disproof fallacies repeated over and over such the law nature argument someone posted recently now now let not change the subject wouldn best finish the thread question before you begin new ones dave wood
alt.atheism	periodic post charley challenges with additions new this version challenge plus addendum summarizing charley responses date this posting made periodically attempt encourage charley wingate address direct challenges his evidently specious claims continue post periodically until answers them publicly indicates that won answer them stops posting alt atheism the alt atheism community tells stop get totally bored apologize for the somewhat juvenile nature this approach but loss figure out another way crack his intransigence and seeming intellectual dishonesty this post charley can help but notice that you have still failed provide answers substantive questions that have been raised response your previous posts submit that you don answer them because you cannot answer them without running afoul your own logic and once again challenge you prove wrong make the task easy for you possible present concise statements some the questions that you have failed answer the hope that you may address them one time for all see should you fail answer again within reasonable time period will post this article with suitable additions and deletions such time that notice post you another topic will repeat this procedure until you either address the outstanding challenges you cease post this newsgroup would like apologize advance you have answered any these questions previously and your answer missed notice you can kind enough post mail such articles will only too pleased publicly rescind the challenge question and remove from this list now the questions after claiming that all atheists fit into neat psychological patterns that you proposed then semi retracting that claim stating that you weren referring all atheists asked you name some atheists who you feel don fit your patterns show that you indeed were not referring all atheists that you are aware you failed please now question can you name any posters who not fit into your stereotype here the context for the question this not true for everyone this board and you are out line assuming that you however deleted the text further along where said that didn mean imply that everybody experience was along the same lines whether not you mean make such implications you repeatedly allow approach the issue from another viewpoint can you name those atheists that you come across who not fit into the patterns that you theorize you have taken umbrage statements the effect that senses and reason are all have and when pressed you have implied that have alternative called revelation have repeatedly asked you explain what revelation and how one can both experience and interpret revelation without doing via our senses and reason you failed please now question can you explain what revelation and how one can experience and interpret without using senses and inherent reasoning here the context for the question revelation not reason and have revelation then reasoning not all have first show that revelation exists second revelation not perceived through the senses how exactly perceived according webster revelation act revealing communicating divine truth now tell how such thing can revealed communicated other than via the senses tell how you can interpret this revelation other than with reason that using your brain interpret what you are sensing when say there way for human being interface with the universe other than via the senses interpreted reason your brain because this the simple truth you have another mechanism interface all means share with then later you cannot escape the fact that our entire interface with the universe our senses and our reason period again this indefensible simple truth challenge you show otherwise then later few mystics will agree this assertion and the common defense redefining senses absorb for instance mystical experiences begs the question whether some senses are better than others allow you the broadest definition senses make things easier for you now show that mystical experiences exist remember you aren allowed testimony others mystics since you have dismissed testimony unreliable you know tainted own bias further once these mystical thingies are absorbed show evidence that human can recognize and respond them short interpretation via that person reasoning capabilities challenge you show these things you cannot you might well give the fight then later let reiterate you have not explained your interpretation your experiences not possible for have attacked them point fact specifically challenged you explain this revelation stuff that you were talking about and note for the record that you appear have declined challenge what how sensed how interpreted and how does this sensing and interpretation occur without the conduit our senses and reasoning abilities you have answered none these questions that straight the heart your claims you can answer them your claims are entirely specious you have stated that all claims dispassionate analysis made posters are unverifiable and fantastical asked you identify one such claim that have made you have failed please now question have made any claims all that are unverifiable and fantastical please repeat them here the context for the question must thank david wood most sensitive and intelligent wrong posting then later likewise the reference unverifiable fantastical claims represents fairly accurately reaction all the claims dispassionate analysis that are repeated this group give your address and pleased send you dictionary failing that can you name one claim that have made that any sense unverifiable fantastical demand that you retract this statement you cannot offer evidence you follow your usual pattern ignoring the challenge then you are simply asshole first you dismissed claims atheists that they became atheists result reason then later you stated that one accepted the axioms reason that one couldn help but become atheist asked you explain the contradiction your only response was statement that the question was incoherent opinion not shared others that have asked they atheist theist you have failed answer the question please now question you retract your claim that posters have not become atheists result reason despite their testimony that effect you don retract that claim you retract the subsequent claim that acceptance the axioms reason inevitably result atheism here the context for the question first quote have here bunch people who claim that their position based reason atheists prove then second quote but not see how one can accept these axioms and not end with atheistic point view first you claimed that you would probably not answer these challenges because they contained too much the way included text from previous posts later you implied that you wouldn respond because was putting words your mouth please clarify this seeming contradiction question you prefer respond challenges that include context from your own posts that paraphrase your positions order avoid included text here the context for the question first you said ordinary rules are that don read articles over over lines articles which there nothing but included text the first screen these are not rules morality but practicality then later someone not going argue with version position then they cannot argued with usual your responses are awaited with anticipation dave wood for the record below compilation charley responses these challenges date this makes sense all gives the appearance either utter incoherence answering some question wood imagination wood not subscribe the opinion that gauntlet thrown down the net requires any response whatsoever some point might read and respond your article and then again might not ordinary rules are that don read articles over over lines articles which there nothing but included text the first screen these are not rules morality but practicality left out something else don respond utmost list things avoid are arguments about the arguments meta arguments some call them when have start saying that not what said and the response did there reason continue someone not going argue with version position then they cannot argued with
alt.atheism	political atheists halat pooh bears jim halat writes think objective morality does exist but that most flavors morality are only approximations once again natural objective morality fairly easily defined long you have goal mind that what the purpose this morality maybe not quite getting what you mean this but think objective morality oxymoron definition seems any goal oriented issue like this subjective nature don get how you using the word objective but the goal need not subjective one for instance the goal natural morality the propogation species perhaps wasn really until the more intelligent animals came along that some revisions this were necessary intelligent animals have different needs than the others and hence morality suited them must bit more complicated than the law the jungle don think that self actualization subjective you might think and objectivity assuming that the ideals any such system could carried out completely keith
alt.atheism	request for support have request for those who would like see charley wingate respond the charley challenges and judging from mail there appear quite few you clear that wingate intends continue post tangential unrelated articles while ingoring the challenges themselves between the last two postings the challenges noted perhaps dozen more posts wingate none which answered single challenge seems unmistakable that wingate hopes that the questions will just away and doing his level best change the subject given that this seems rather common net theist tactic would like suggest that impress upon him our desire for answers the following manner ignore any future articles wingate that not address the challenges until answers them explictly announces that refuses you must respond one his articles include within something similar the following please answer the questions posed you the charley challenges really not looking humiliate anyone here just want some honest answers you wouldn think that honesty would too much ask from devout christian would you nevermind that was rhetorical question dave wood
alt.atheism	gospel dating article mimsy umd edu mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes assuming you are presenting accurately don see how this argument really leads any firm conclusion the material john not sure exactly what referred here but take for granted the similarity the matt luke material different hence one could have almost any relationship between the two right john getting straight from jesus mouth the argument says john has known codified version the logia and not the original assuming that there has been one has weaknesses course like that john might have known the original yet rather referred his text that the logia were given codified version the first place the argument alone does not allow firm conclusion but fits well into the dating usually given for the gospels are talking date texts here not the age the authors the usual explanation for the time order mark matthew and luke does not consider their respective ages says matthew has read the text mark and luke that matthew and probably that mark the version the usual theory have heard has matthew and luke independently relying mark and one would think that luke relied matthew wouldn have the grating inconsistencies the geneologies for one thing not necessarily luke may have trusted the version knew better than the version given matthew improving matthew would give motive for instance far know the theory that luke has known matthew based statistical analysis the texts assumed that john knew the content luke text the evidence for that not overwhelming admittedly this the part that particularly new were possible that you could point reference grateful yep but will take another day get the source hope your german good enough unfortunately haven got the info hand was think the late early and was possibly old when they are from about why they shed doubt the order putting john after the rest the three because closes the gap between supposed writing and the existing copy quit bit the further away from the original the more copies can written and therefore survival becomes more probable still not see how copies from allow change the dating john that john was disciple not generally accepted the style and language together with the theology are usually used counterargument not really impressed with the theology argument but really pointing this out and pointed out earlier one cannot make these arguments about peter see reason not accept authentic letter yes but gives only possibilities and evidence the authencity many letters still discussed looks conclusions about them are not drawn because some pet dogmas the churches would probably fall with them well one step and one generation removed bad even our times compare that reports similar events our century almost illiterate societies the best analogy would reporters talking the participants which not bad well rather like some newsletter political party reporting from the big meeting not necessarily wrong but certainly bad other words one does not know what the original mark did look like and arguments based mark are pretty weak but the statement divinity not that section and any case agreed that the most important epistles predate mark yes but the accuracy their tradition another problem question are there letters not from paul and predating mark claiming the divinity jesus benedikt
alt.atheism	americans and evolution article dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes article tinn senator bedfellow mit edu bobs thnext mit edu robert singleton writes deletion will argue that your latter statement believe that gods exist does rest upon faith that you are making positive statement that gods exist strong atheism rather than merely saying don know and therefore don believe them and don not believe then weak atheism once again not believe god different than saying believe that god does not exist still maintain the position even after reading the faqs that strong atheism requires faith the way usually used view you are saying here that driving car requires faith that the car drives not saying this all requires faith part say the car drives because seen drive done more than fact actually driven now what does require some faith the belief that senses give accurate representation what out there but there evidence pro con for the existence non existence god see what have say below this for conclusion and have more faith than have the premises and the argument used sorry remain skeptical don believe entirely conclusion that you have seen evidence that there god correct neither have but lack evidence for the existence something way evidence for the non existence something the creationist have similar mode argumentation which they disprove evolution the establish creation you personally have never seen neutrino before but they exist the pink unicorn analogy breaks down and rather naive have scientific theory that explains the appearance animal life evolution when draw the conclusion that pink unicorns don exist because haven seen them this conclusion has foundation observation and theory pink unicorn did exist would qualitatively similar other known entities that say since there good evidence that all life earth has evolved from more primitive ancestors these pink unicorns would share common anscestory with horses and zebras and such god however has such correspondence with anything imo there physical frame work observation draw any conclusions from but first let say the following might have language problem here regards faith and existence christian maintain that god does not exist exist means have being space and time god does not have being god being kierkegaard once said that god does not exist eternal with this said feel rather pointless debate the called existence god and that not what doing here believe that god the source and ground being when you say that god does not exist also accept this statement but obviously mean two different things however what follows will use the phrase the existence god usual sense and this the sense that think you are using would like clarification upon what you mean the existence god that word game disagree with you profoundly this haven defined god existence fact haven defined god but this might getting off the subject although you think relevant can come back further saying god existence either waste time existence already used and there need replace god you are implying more with which case your definition and your argument far are incomplete making fallacy you are using wrong categories here perhaps you misunderstand what saying making argument what ever and offering definition there fallacy not trying convince you anything believe and that rests upon faith and inappropriate apply the category logic this realm unless someone tells you that they can logically prove god that they have evidence then the use logic disprove their claims fine and necessary btw incomplete argument not fallacy some things are not even wrong deletion one can never prove that god does does not exist when you say that you believe god does not exist and that this opinion based upon observation will have ask what observtions are you refering there are observations pro con that are valid here establishing positive belief deletion where does that follow aren observations based the assumption that something exists don follow you here certainly one can make observations things that they didn know existed still maintain that one cannot use observation infer that god does not exist such positive assertion requires leap and wouldn you say there level definition that the assumption god meaningful not would reject that concept anyway where your evidence for that god meaningful some level once again you seem completely misunderstand have evidence that god meaningful any level maybe such response you gave just comes naturally you because many people try run their own private conception god down your throat however not doing this arguing one and only one thing that make positive assertion about something for which there can principle evidence for against requires leap requires faith you would say theist however there form atheism that can respect but must founded upon honesty benedikt bob singleton bobs thnext mit edu
alt.atheism	second law was albert sabin joel hanes jjh diag amdahl com wrote connor assertion that more complex later paleontology simply incorrect many lineages are known which whole structures are lost for example snakes have lost their legs cave fish have lost their eyes some species have almost completely lost their males kiwis are descended from birds with functional wings joel the statements made were illustrative the inescapably anthrpomorphic quality any desciption evolutionary process there way evolution can described explained terms other than teleological that whole point even those who have reason believe they understand evolution biologists for instance tend personify nature and can help but wonder because the limits the language the nature nature bill
alt.atheism	gospel dating keith ryan kmr cwru edu wrote wild and fanciful claims require greater evidence you state that one the books your room blue certainly not need much evidence believe than you were claim that there two headed leapard your bed and don mean male lover leotard keith the issue what truth then the consequences whatever proposition argued irrelevent the issue what are the consequences such and such true then truth irrelevent which bill
alt.atheism	gospel dating jim perry perry dsinc com wrote the bible says there god that true then our atheism mistaken what seems pretty obvious socrates said there were many gods that true then your monotheism and our atheism mistaken even socrates never existed jim think you must have come late the discussion part least began with benedikt questioning the historical acuuracy the was making the point that the same standards are used validate secular history that are used here discredit history then virtually nothing known the first century you seem saying that the bible cannot true because speaks the existence god were fact your objection has nothing with history merely another statement atheism bill
alt.atheism	not the omni charley wingate mangoe umd edu wrote please enlighten how omnipotence contradictory definition all that can occur the universe governed the rules nature thus god cannot break them anything that god does must allowed the rules somewhere therefore omnipotence cannot exist contradicts the rules nature obviously omnipotent god can change the rules when you say definition what exactly being defined certainly not omnipotence you seem saying that the rules nature are pre existant somehow that they not only define nature but actually cause that what you mean like hear your further thoughts the question bill
alt.atheism	only knew prudenti juncol juniata edu wrote upon arriving home joseph probably took advantage mary had his way with her speak course word this couldn get around mary being the highly religious follower that she was decided hey just say that god impregnated one will ever know thus seen trustworthy and honorable soul she was believed and then came jesus the child born from violence dave can you explain the purpose your post can imagine what you must have thougt meant bill
alt.atheism	allah akbar and praise the lord maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com wrote and thank the lord that bill connor has returned set straight now know can die happy when lexus wipes out that rain slick curve the rest you had best straighten because your time even more limited most you are going the flu maddi you know you glad have visit but won stay long this time just shopping around bill
alt.atheism	dear theist pixie andy bgsu edu wrote for all the problems technology has caused your types have made things even worse must reminded the inquisition operation rescue the klux klan posse comitatus the club david duke salem witch trials the crusades gay bashings etc plus virtually each and every single war regardless the level technology has had theistic organizations cheering the carnage chaplains etc and claiming that god was favor the whole ordeal don forget pray for our troops this really tedious every bad thing that ever happened because the malefactors were under the influence religion does anyone really believe that seen often must pretty general opinion but want believe that atheists are really not that dishonest please stick the facts and having accomplished that interpret them correctly bill
alt.atheism	morality constant was biblical rape jim perry perry dsinc com wrote xenophobia both facto and jure implemented legal systems widespread while the bible although not egalitarian specifically preaches kindness the stranger and emphasizes the book ruth that foreigner can join the nation and give rise one the great heroes the nation clearly better than the alternative but american what strikes strange about this story that should have even been considered issue jim there are couple things about your post and others this thread that are little confusing atheist one for whom all things can understood processes nature exclusively there need for any recourse divnity describe explain anything there purpose direction for any event beyond those required physics chemistry biology etc everything random nothing determnined this would also have include human intelligence course and all its products there nothing requiring that life evolve that acquire intelligence just happy accident for atheist event can preferred another said have more less value than another any naturalistic sense and thought about event can have value the products our intelligence are acquired from our environment from teaching training observation and experience and are only significant the individual mind wherein they reside these mental processes and the images they produce for are just electrical activity and nothing more content consequence the human mind much response natural forces water running down hill how then can atheist judge value what the basis for criticizing the values ennumerated the bible the purposes imputed god what grounds can the the behavior the reliogious condemned seems that judging the values that motivate others action you have have some standard against which conduct measured but what nature can serve that purpose what law nature can you invoke establish your values since every event entirely and exclusively physical event what difference could possibly make what anyone does religious otherwise there can meaning gradation value the only way atheist can object any behaviour admit that the objection entirely subjective and that she just doesn like that any value judgement must prefaced the disclaimer that nothing more than matter personal opinion and carries weight any absolute sense that you don like what god told people says nothing about god god commands says only that there was electrical event your nervous system that created emotional state that your mind coupled with pre existing thought set form that reaction that your objections seem well founded due the way you been conditioned there truth content the whole your intellectual landscape illusion virtual reality didn make these rules inherent naturalistic atheism and consistent you have accept the non significance any human thought even your own all this being you have excluded yourself from any discussion values right wrong goood evil etc and cannot participate your opinion about the bible can have weight whatsoever bill
alt.atheism	bill conner could you explain what any this pertains this position statement something typing practice and why are you using name you think this relates anything said and what bill
alt.atheism	islam dress code for women dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes deletion course people say what they think the religion and that this not exactly the same coming from different people within the religion there nothing with there existing different perspectives within the religion perhaps one can say that they tend converge the truth point that they are doing lot harm the way the meantime and that they converge counterfactual religions appear split and diverge even when there might true religion the core the layers above determine what happens practise and they are quite inhumane usually what you post then supposed answer but don see what has got with what say will repeat religions are harm people and religions don converge they split giving more disagree upon and there lot disagreement whom one should tolerant one should tolerant all ideologies also split giving more disagree upon and may also lead intolerance you also oppose all ideologies don think your argument argument against religion all but just points out the weaknesses human nature big deletion women have souls islam people have said here that some muslims say that women not have souls must admit have never heard such view being held muslims any era have heard some christians some eras holding this viewpoint but not muslims are you sure you might not confusing christian history with islamic history yes supposed have been predominant view the turkish caliphate would like reference you have got one for this news anyhow that women are the spiritual equals men can clearly shown from many verses the qur for example the qur says for muslim men and women for believing men and women for devout men and women for true men and women for men and women who are patient and constant for men and women who humble themselves for men and women who give charity for men and women who fast and deny themselves for men and women who guard their chastity and for men and women who engage much god praise for them has god prepared forgiveness and great reward qur abdullah yusuf ali translation there are other quotes too but think the above quote shows that men and women are spiritual equals and thus that women have souls just men very clearly does not implies that they have souls but does not say they have souls and not given that the quote above given high priority all interpretations one must approach the qur with intelligence any thinking approach the qur cannot but interpret the above verse and others like that women and men are spiritual equals think that the above verse does clearly imply that women have souls does make any sense for something without soul forgiven have great reward understood the after life think the usual answer would which case the part saying for them has god prepared forgiveness and great reward says they have souls makes sense say that things without souls can forgiven then have idea what soul for your saying that the quote above may not given high priority all interpretations any thinking approach the qur has give all verses the qur equal priority that because according muslim belief the whole qur the revelation god fact denying the truth any part the qur sufficient considered disbeliever islam quite similar you other post even when the quran does not encourage slavery not justified say that iit forbids puts end slavery non sequitur look any approach the qur must done with intelligence and thought this fashion that one can try understand the quran message book finite length cannot explicitly answer every question you want put but through its teachings can guide you think however that women are the spiritual equals men clearly and unambiguously implied the above verse and that since women can clearly forgiven and rewarded they must have souls from the above verse let try understand what the qur trying teach rather than try see how many ways can misinterpreted ignoring this passage that passage the misinterpretations the qur based ignoring this verse that verse are infinite but the interpretations fully consistent are more limited let try discuss these interpretations consistent with the text rather than how people can ignore this bit that bit for that just showing how people can try twist islam for their own ends something not deny but provides reflection the true teachings islam whatsoever fred rice darice yoyo monash edu
alt.atheism	slavery was why sex only allowed marriage apr ennews eas asu edu guncer enuxha eas asu edu selim guncer writes you might not like what bernard lewis writes about label him zionist such discredit him etc you misrepresent selim the hard evidence for statements about his lack objectivity are presented quite clearly the book orientalism edward said edward said the way christian not muslim think pretty much objective his treatment race and slavery the middle east since clearly distinguishes between slavery under islam and the practice slavery other countries like the prior the civil war also does not conceal that there are verses the quran which promote the liberation slaves what doesn and don think nobody can deduce from these verses that slavery will eventually abolished islamic countries now you might rather conveniently blame the practice slavery muslims but the facts are out there also fail see the relevance the claim lewis being zionist what wrote regarding bernard lewis him being zionist gives him political motive for his giving misrepresentations and half truths about islam read orientalism edward said see the evidence for yourself fact may post some here isn too long they were encyclopaedic information which anybody can access that slavery was abolished certain dates some years after muhammed that this was the cause tensions the ottoman empire between the arab slave traders and the government etc also have the asu library volumes british documents slavery where reports and documents concerning slavery all around the world can found which checked some the incidents lewis mentions don think ones political stance has anything with documentary evidence haven read lewis article can comment directly upon and have only spoken about his writings general far that his political motives make him biased writer islam his anti islamic polemics understand are often quite subtle and are often based telling half truths again read orientalism edward said not asking you take what say trust fact urging you not but get this book well known book and check the evidence out for yourself the issue raised was that slaves were used for sexual purposes when was claimed that islam prohibits extra marital sex wrote that the prophet himself had concubines wrote incident which the prophet advised someone who did not want his concubine get pregnant etc which contrary the notion that sex for procreation only other words such claims are baseless the quran and the hadith slavery reality opposed the practice some muslims opposed islam then using slaves for sexual purposes necessarily opposed too seem unsuccesful getting through you islam not advocating slavery slavery was existing institution the century advised slaves being freed for good deeds etc which nothing new many cultures saw this good thing what the problem here but can argue rightfully that slaves were discouraged about thinking about their statuses politically the quran rewards the good slave obey your master and perhaps one day you free but very understandable that not communicate with muslims since they assume the quran from god and think rule based system imposed the society for preservation the status quo slaves are part this system the subordination women that their function society boils down child making part this system etc understand your point view selim think rather who are not getting through you some the points you repeat above have already answered before regarding women have made posting after posting this subject showing that islam not anti woman etc however have you been completely ignoring postings just missing them just reposted very good one under the title islam and women reposted from soc religion islam this has already disappeared from your site then please email telling and will email you copy this excellent article imho your understanding the issue women islam sadly deficient regarding slaves posting slavery the second one made which repost article wrote early last year based completely the qur and contains numerous qur anic verses and hadiths support its point view our approaches are different you are arguing from historical standpoint and arguing directly from the teachings the qur and hadiths now just because people say they are muslims and perform particular action does that automatically mean that their action part islam even opposed the qur and sunnah course not let give you concrete example which might help clarify this for you the qur prohibits drinking now person says muslim and then proceeds drink bottle beer does this now mean that islam teaches that people should drink beer course not and only idiot would think you see point very natural think that the author authors the quran had idea that the socio economic structure they were advocating would experience least two paradigm shifts years the western cultures first with the end the feudal era and the rise commerce second with the industrial revolution well rules have changed and the status quo has driven muslim countries into misery trying survive heathen world muslim countries have failed economically they were unable accumulate any wealth directly due the uncomprimising economic rules the quran fact the rise islam can easily modeled after the pyramid effect you not produce any wealth home but increase your wealth conquering places you are judging islam here capitalist terms capitalism ideology based largely the assumption that people want maximise their wealth this assumption opposition islamic teachings say islam bad because not capitalist pretty unthinking islam does not pretend capitalist and does not try capitalist this does not mean that islam does not support free market for does general but there are other parts capitalism which are opposed islam understand when this stopped you and were left bare the open for emperialists devour capital industry very poor social services the education level muslim countries are the lowest the world the health statistics are miserable etc one can postulate numerous reasons for this your theory that because islam not secularist and capitalist etc etc selim will give you clear historical example show you the fallacy your views you think you obviously that islam lack education and power for large part history the islamic world was very powerful for significant section history the islamic world was the foremost the sciences say that islam for example anti education completely absurd you try blame this situation islam history shows that your conclusion false and that instead there must other reasons for this situation you blame muslims for not following the quran but blame muslims for following the quran well selim your viewpoint women islam makes question the extent your knowledge islam really think you are not knowledgeable enough able judge whether the muslims are following the qur not your idea baseless from historical facts poor utopia the islamic world was the forefront the world science one stage yet somehow your theory following the qur that muslims are backwards education selim your thesis that anti historical for you conveniently overlook this historical fact which contradicts your theory while ideas are derived from social and economic history you have certainly not shown this you have merely stated far seems that your view islam being anti education quite contrary history that you are convinced your views makes wonder just how objectively you are trying look all this solution all muslims simple cut the crap think selim you should consider taking your own advice get the facts straight here too and work hard reverse the effects years ignorance selim you have such conviction your viewpoint yet you demonstrate ignorance not only islam but also islamic history particularly with respect muslims being leaders science till about think yet you say that your viewpoint based history selim remember right you say one your earlier posts that you are apostate from islam think you should slow down and start thinking clearly about the issues and start reading some our postings about islam rather than ignoring them you obviously have fred rice darice yoyo monash edu
alt.atheism	jews can hide from keith cco article pqdor fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article apr bmerh bnr dgraham bmers bnr douglas graham writes the poster casually trashed two thousand years jewish history and ken replied that there had previously been people like him germany think the problem here that pretty much ignored the part about the jews sightseeing for years thinking instead that the important part what the original poster said was the bit about killing palestinians retrospect can see how the sightseeing thing would offensive many originally saw just poetic license but understandable that others might see differently still think that ken came bit strong though also think that your advice masud khan before you argue with someone like arromdee good idea little homework least think was unnecessary that right there have been there have also been people who were formally nazis but the nazi party would have gone nowhere without the active and tacit support the ordinary man the street who behaved though casual anti semitism was perfectly acceptable now what exactly don you understand about what wrote and why don you see what has with the matter hand throughout all your articles this thread there the tacit assumption that the original poster was exhibiting casual anti semitism agreed with that then maybe your speech why this bad might have been relevant but think you reading lot into one flip sentence while probably not true this case too often the charge anti semitism gets thrown around order stifle legitimate criticism the state israel anyway rather somewhere else outta this thread doug graham dgraham bnr opinions are own
alt.atheism	alt atheism faq frequently asked questions archive name atheism faq alt atheism archive name faq last modified april version alt atheism frequently asked questions this file contains responses articles which occur repeatedly alt atheism points covered here are ones which are not covered the introduction atheism you are advised read that article well before posting these answers are not intended exhaustive definitive the purpose the periodic faq postings not stifle debate but raise its level you have something say concerning one these questions and which isn covered the answer given please feel free make your point overview contents what the purpose this newsgroup hitler was atheist the bible proves pascal wager what occam razor why good believe jesus why know that god exists einstein and god does not play dice everyone worships something why there must causeless cause the universe complex must have been designed independent evidence that the bible true godel incompleteness theorem george bush atheism and patriotism know where hell biblical contradictions wanted the usa christian nation the usa not christian nation subject what the purpose this newsgroup typical posting why have newsgroup about atheism why atheists organize groups what there discuss response many things are discussed here including whether reasonable feign theism order avoid upsetting one family prayer schools discrimination against atheists sunday trading laws the satanic child abuse myth whether one should overt atheist stay the closet how religious societies prey sic new college students how get rid unwanted proselytizers whether religion danger society and the individual why people become atheists course inevitably alt atheism tends attract evangelical christians looking for someone convert most readers the newsgroup don want preached although few seem derive perverse pleasure from tearing apart particularly ill considered uninformed postings subject hitler was atheist typical posting hitler was atheist and look what did response adolf hitler was emphatically not atheist said himself the folkish minded man particular has the sacred duty each his own denomination making people stop just talking superficially god will and actually fulfill god will and not let god word desecrated orig ital for god will gave men their form their essence and their abilities anyone who destroys his work declaring war the lord creation the divine will therefore let every man active each his own denomination you please and let every man take his first and most sacred duty oppose anyone who his activity word deed steps outside the confines his religious community and tries butt into the other hence today believe that acting accordance with the will the almighty creator defending myself against the jew fighting for the work the lord orig ital adolf hitler from mein kampf trans ralph mannheim course someone bad believing something does not make that belief wrong also entirely possible that hitler was lying when claimed believe god certainly can conclude that atheist though subject the bible proves typical posting the bible says that response most the readers alt atheism feel that the bible questionable accuracy was written thousands years ago many authors who were recording oral tradition that existed many years before thus any claimed truth questionable legitimacy this isn say that the bible has truth simply that any truth must examined before being accepted many the readers this group also feel that because any passage subject interpretation any claim that passage means one thing and one thing only not legitimate note that this feeling tends extend other books also remarkable many atheists that theists tend ignore other equally plausible religious books favour those their own religion subject pascal wager typical posting you believe god and turn out incorrect you have lost nothing but you don believe god and turn out incorrect you will hell therefore foolish atheist response this argument known pascal wager has several flaws firstly does not indicate which religion follow indeed there are many mutually exclusive and contradictory religions out there this often described the avoiding the wrong hell problem person follower religion may end religion version hell secondly the statement that you believe god and turn out incorrect you have lost nothing not true suppose you believing the wrong god the true god might punish you for your foolishness consider also the deaths that have resulted from people rejecting medicine favour prayer another flaw the argument that based the assumption that the two possibilities are equally likely least that they are comparable likelihood fact the possibility there being god close zero the argument becomes much less persuasive sadly the argument only likely convince those who believe already also many feel that for intellectually honest people belief based evidence with some amount intuition not matter will cost benefit analysis formally speaking the argument consists four statements one does not know whether god exists not believing god bad for one eternal soul god does exist believing god consequence god does not exist therefore one interest believe god there are two approaches the argument the first view assumption and consequence one problem with this approach the abstract that creates information from information this considered invalid information theory statement indicates one has information about god but statement indicates that beneficial information can gained from the absolute lack information about god this violates information entropy information has been extracted from information cost the alternative approach claim that and are both assumptions the problem with this that then basically assumption which states the christian position and only christian will agree with that assumption the argument thus collapses you are christian your interests believe god rather vacuous tautology and not the way pascal intended the argument viewed the biggest reason why pascal wager failure that god omniscient will certainly know who really believes and who believes wager will spurn the latter assuming actually cares all whether people believe him subject what occam razor typical posting people keep talking about occam razor what response william occam formulated principle which has become known occam razor its original form said not multiply entities unnecessarily that you can explain something without supposing the existence some entity then nowadays when people refer occam razor they generally express more generally for example take the simplest solution the relevance atheism that can look two possible explanations for what see around there incredibly intricate and complex universe out there which came into being result natural processes there incredibly intricate and complex universe out there and there also god who created the universe clearly this god must non zero complexity given that both explanations fit the facts occam razor might suggest that should take the simpler the two solution number one unfortunately some argue that there third even more simple solution there isn incredibly intricate and complex universe out there just imagine that there this third option leads logically towards solipsism which many people find unacceptable subject why good believe jesus typical posting want tell people about the virtues and benefits religion response preaching not appreciated feel free talk about your religion but please not write postings that are conversion theme such postings not belong alt atheism and will rejected from alt atheism moderated try the newsgroup talk religion misc you would doubtless not welcome postings from atheists your favourite newsgroup attempt convert you please unto others you would have them unto you often theists make their basic claims about god the form lengthy analogies parables aware that atheists have heard god and know the basic claims about him the sole purpose your parable tell atheists that god exists and brings salvation you may well not post since tells nothing have not been told before subject why know that god exists typical posting know from personal experience and prayer that god exists response just many theists have personal evidence that the being they worship exists many atheists have personal evidence that such beings not exist that evidence varies from person person furthermore without wishing dismiss your evidence out hand many people have claimed all kinds unlikely things that they have been abducted ufos visited the ghost elvis and subject einstein and god does not play dice typical posting albert einstein believed god you think you cleverer than him response einstein did once comment that god does not play dice with the universe this quotation commonly mentioned show that einstein believed the christian god used this way out context refers einstein refusal accept the uncertainties indicated quantum theory furthermore einstein religious background was jewish rather than christian better quotation showing what einstein thought about god the following believe spinoza god who reveals himself the orderly harmony what exists not god who concerns himself with fates and actions human beings einstein was unable accept quantum theory because his belief objective orderly reality reality which would not subject random events and which would not dependent upon the observer believed that was incomplete and that better theory would have need for statistical interpretations far such better theory has been found and much evidence suggests that never will longer quote from einstein appears science philosophy and religion symposium published the conference science philosophy and religion their relation the democratic way life inc new york says the more man imbued with the ordered regularity all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there room left the side this ordered regularity for causes different nature for him neither the rule human nor the rule divine will exists independent cause natural events sure the doctrine personal god interfering with natural events could never refuted italics his the real sense science for this doctrine can always take refuge those domains which scientific knowledge has not yet been able set foot but convinced that such behavior the part representatives religion would not only unworthy but also fatal for doctrine which maintain itself not clear light but only the dark will necessity lose its effect mankind with incalculable harm human progress their struggle for the ethical good teachers religion must have the stature give the doctrine personal god that give that source fear and hope which the past placed such vast power the hands priests their labors they will have avail themselves those forces which are capable cultivating the good the true and the beautiful humanity itself this sure more difficult but incomparably more worthy task einstein has also said was course lie what you read about religous convictions lie which being systematically repeated not believe personal god and have never denied this but have expressed clearly something which can called religious then the unbounded admiration for the structure the world far our science can reveal the latter quote from albert einstein the human side edited helen dukas and banesh hoffman and published princeton university press also from the same book not believe immortality the individual and consider ethics exclusively human concern with superhuman authority behind course the fact that einstein chose not believe christianity does not itself imply that christianity false subject everyone worships something typical posting everyone worships something whether money power god response that true everyone polytheist theists care just much about those things that atheists care about the atheists reactions for example their families amount worship then the theists subject why there must causeless cause typical posting sets integers that have lower bound each have smallest member chains causes must all have first element causeless cause response the set real numbers greater than zero has definite lower bound but has smallest member further even true that there must causeless cause that does not imply that that cause must conscious supernatural entity and especially not that any such entity must match the description favoured any particular religion subject the universe complex must have been designed typical posting the presence design the universe proves there god surely you don think all this appeared here just chance response this known the argument from design matter dispute whether there any element design the universe those who believe that the complexity and diversity living creatures the earth evidence creator are best advised read the newsgroup talk origins for while there insufficient space summarize both sides that debate here however the conclusion that there scientific evidence favour called scientific creationism furthermore there much evidence observation and theory that can explain many the complexities the universe and life earth the origin the argument design feeling that the existence something incredibly intricate say human improbable that surely can have come about chance that surely there must some external intelligence directing things that humans come from the chaos deliberately but human intelligence improbable surely the existence mind capable fashioning entire universe complete with conscious beings must immeasurably more unlikely the approach used argue favour the existence creator can turned around and applied the creationist position this leads the familiar theme creator created the universe what created the creator but with the addition spiralling improbability the only way out declare that the creator was not created and just was from here might well ask what wrong with saying that the universe just without introducing creator indeed stephen hawking his book brief history time explains his theory that the universe closed and finite extent with beginning end the argument from design often stated analogy the called watchmaker argument one asked imagine that one has found watch the beach does one assume that was created watchmaker that evolved naturally course one assumes watchmaker yet like the watch the universe intricate and complex the argument goes the universe too must have creator the watchmaker analogy suffers from three particular flaws over and above those common all arguments design firstly watchmaker creates watches from pre existing materials whereas god claimed have created the universe from nothing these two sorts creation are clearly fundamentally different and the analogy therefore rather weak secondly watchmaker makes watches but there are many other things the world walked further along the beach and found nuclear reactor wouldn assume was created the watchmaker the argument would therefore suggest multitude creators each responsible for different part creation finally the first part the watchmaker argument conclude that the watch not part nature because ordered and therefore stands out from the randomness nature yet the second part the argument start from the position that the universe obviously not random but shows elements order the watchmaker argument thus internally inconsistent subject independent evidence that the bible true typical posting the events the new testament are confirmed independent documentary evidence for example response the writings josephus are often mentioned independent documentary evidence early versions josephus work are thought not have mentioned jesus james the extant version discusses john non christian context many scholars believe that the original mentioned jesus and james passing but that this was expanded christian copyists several reconstructions the original text have been published this effect much information appears the ecclesiastical history eusebius about worthless historical material because the deliberate falsification the wily eusebius who generally acknowledged the first thoroughly dishonest historian antiquity eusebius who generally given the title authorship for this material aside from the new testament the biographical information about jesus more well documented for further information please consult the frequently asked questions file for the newsgroup soc religion christian subject godel incompleteness theorem typical posting godel incompleteness theorem demonstrates that impossible for the bible both true and complete response godel first incompleteness theorem says that any consistent formal system which sufficiently expressive that can model ordinary arithmetic one can formulate expressions which can never proven valid invalid true false within that formal system technically speaking the system must also recursive that there must decision procedure for determining whether given string axiom within the formal system essentially all such systems can formulate what known liar paradox the classic liar paradox sentence ordinary english this sentence false note that proposition undecidable the formal system cannot even deduce that undecidable the logic used theological discussions rarely well defined claims that godel incompleteness theorem demonstrates that impossible prove disprove the existence god are worthless isolation one can trivially define formal system which possible prove the existence god simply having the existence god stated axiom this unlikely viewed atheists convincing proof however may possible succeed producing formal system built axioms that both atheists and theists agree with may then possible show that godel incompleteness theorem holds for that system however that would still not demonstrate that impossible prove that god exists within the system furthermore certainly wouldn tell anything about whether possible prove the existence god generally note also that all these hypothetical formal systems tell nothing about the actual existence god the formal systems are just abstractions another frequent claim that godel incompleteness theorem demonstrates that religious text the bible the book mormon whatever cannot both consistent and universally applicable religious texts are not formal systems such claims are nonsense subject george bush atheism and patriotism typical posting did george bush really say that atheists should not considered citizens response the following exchange took place the chicago airport between robert sherman american atheist press and george bush august sherman fully accredited reporter and was present invitation member the press corps the republican presidential nominee was there announce federal disaster relief for illinois the discussion turned the presidential primary what will you win the votes americans who are atheists guess pretty weak the atheist community faith god important surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism americans who are atheists don know that atheists should considered citizens nor should they considered patriots this one nation under god you support sound constitutional principle the separation state and church yes support the separation church and state just not very high atheists upi reported may that various atheist organizations were still angry over the remarks the exchange appeared the boulder daily camera monday february can also found free enquiry magazine fall issue volume number page october sherman had confrontation with murnane cochairman the bush quayle illinois campaign this concerned lawsuit sherman had filed stop the community consolidated school district chicago illinois from forcing his first grade atheist son pledge allegiance the flag the united states one nation under god bush phrase the following conversation took place american atheists filed the pledge allegiance lawsuit yesterday does the bush campaign have official response this filing bullshit what bullshit everything that american atheists does rob bullshit thank you for telling what the official position the bush campaign this issue you welcome after bush election american atheists wrote bush asking him retract his statement february boyden gray counsel the president replied white house stationery that bush substantively stood his original statement and wrote you are aware the president religious man who neither supports atheism nor believes that atheism should unnecessarily encouraged supported the government for further information contact american atheist veterans the american atheist press cameron road address subject know where hell typical posting know where hell hell norway response there are several towns called hell various countries around the world including norway and the usa whilst this information mildly amusing the first time one hears readers alt atheism are now getting pretty fed with hearing every week subject biblical contradictions wanted typical posting does anyone have list biblical contradictions response american atheist press publish atheist handbook detailing biblical contradictions see the accompanying posting atheist resources for details there file containing some biblical contradictions available from the archive server mantis see the contacts file for more information subject the usa christian nation typical posting because the religious beliefs the founding fathers shouldn the united states considered christian nation response based upon the writings several important founding fathers clear that they never intended the christian nation here are some quotes there are many more what influence fact have ecclesiastical establishments had society some instances they have been seen erect spiritual tyranny the ruins the civil authority many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones political tyranny instance have they been the guardians the liberties the people rulers who wish subvert the public liberty may have found established clergy convenient auxiliaries just government instituted secure and perpetuate needs them not james madison memorial and remonstrance almost shudder the thought alluding the most fatal example the abuses grief which the history mankind has preserved the cross consider what calamities that engine grief has produced john adams letter thomas jefferson history believe furnishes example priest ridden people maintaining free civil government this marks the lowest grade ignorance which their political well religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose thomas jefferson baron von humboldt cannot conceive otherwise than that the infinite father expects requires worship praise from but that even infinitely above benjamin franklin from articles belief and acts religion nov subject the usa not christian nation typical posting true that george washington said that the united states not any sense founded upon the christian religion response the quotation often given fact from article the treaty tripoli stat treaty series article the government the united states america not any sense founded the christian religion has itself character enmity against the laws religion tranquility musselmen and the said states never have entered into any war act hostility against any mehomitan nation declared the parties that pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce interruption the harmony existing between the two countries the text may found the congressional record treaty collections such charles bevans treaties and other international agreements the united states america vol the english text the treaty tripoli was approved the senate june and ratified president john adams june was recently discovered that the arabic version the treaty not only lacks the quotation lacks article altogether the person who translated the arabic english was joel barlow consul general algiers close friend thomas paine and opponent christianity possible that barlow made article but since there arabic version that article found hard say new treaty tripoli was ratified which longer contained the quotation end faq digest
alt.atheism	alt atheism faq constructing logical argument archive name atheism logic alt atheism archive name logic last modified april version constructing logical argument although there much argument usenet the general quality argument found poor this article attempts provide gentle introduction logic the hope improving the general level debate logic the science reasoning proof thinking inference concise oed logic allows analyze piece reasoning and determine whether correct not valid invalid course one does not need study logic order reason correctly nevertheless little basic knowledge logic often helpful when constructing analyzing argument note that claim being made here about whether logic universally applicable the matter very much open for debate this document merely explains how use logic given that you have already decided that logic the right tool for the job propositions statements are the building blocks logical argument proposition statement which either true false for example raining today tuesday propositions may either asserted said true denied said false note that this technical meaning deny not the everyday meaning the proposition the meaning the statement not the particular arrangement words used express god exists and there exists god both express the same proposition argument quote the monty python sketch connected series statements establish definite proposition argument consists three stages first all the propositions which are necessary for the argument continue are stated these are called the premises the argument they are the evidence reasons for accepting the argument and its conclusions premises assertions are often indicated phrases such because since obviously and the phrase obviously often viewed with suspicion can used intimidate others into accepting suspicious premises something doesn seem obvious you don afraid question you can always say yes you right obvious when you heard the explanation next the premises are used derive further propositions process known inference inference one proposition arrived the basis one more other propositions already accepted there are various forms valid inference the propositions arrived inference may then used further inference inference often denoted phrases such implies that therefore finally arrive the conclusion the argument the proposition which affirmed the basis the premises and inference conclusions are often indicated phrases such therefore follows that conclude and the conclusion often stated the final stage inference for example every event has cause premise the universe has beginning premise all beginnings involve event premise this implies that the beginning the universe involved event inference therefore the universe has cause inference and conclusion note that the conclusion one argument might premise another argument proposition can only called premise conclusion with respect particular argument the terms not make sense isolation sometimes argument will not follow the order given above for example the conclusions might stated first and the premises stated afterwards support the conclusion this perfectly valid sometimes little confusing recognizing argument much harder than recognizing premises conclusions many people shower their writing with assertions without ever producing anything which one might reasonably describe argument some statements look like arguments but are not for example the bible accurate jesus must either have been insane evil liar the son god this not argument conditional statement does not assert the premises which are necessary support what appears its conclusion also suffers from number other logical flaws but come those later another example god created you therefore your duty god the phrase your duty god not proposition since neither true nor false therefore not conclusion and the sentence not argument finally causality important consider statement the form because interested establishing and offered evidence the statement argument trying establish the truth then not argument explanation for example there must something wrong with the engine car because will not start this argument car will not start because there something wrong with the engine this explanation there are two traditional types argument deductive and inductive deductive argument one which provides conclusive proof its conclusions that argument where the premises are true the conclusion must also true deductive argument either valid invalid valid argument defined one where the premises are true then the conclusion true inductive argument one where the premises provide some evidence for the truth the conclusion inductive arguments are not valid invalid however can talk about whether they are better worse than other arguments and about how probable their premises are there are forms argument ordinary language which are neither deductive nor inductive however will concentrate for the moment deductive arguments they are often viewed the most rigorous and convincing important note that the fact that deductive argument valid does not imply that its conclusion holds this because the slightly counter intuitive nature implication which must now consider more carefully obviously valid argument can consist true propositions however argument may entirely valid even contains only false propositions for example all insects have wings premise woodlice are insects premise therefore woodlice have wings conclusion here the conclusion not true because the argument premises are false the argument premises were true however the conclusion would true the argument thus entirely valid more subtly can reach true conclusion from one more false premises all fish live the sea premise dolphins are fish premise therefore dolphins live the sea conclusion however the one thing cannot reach false conclusion through valid inference from true premises can therefore draw truth table for implication the symbol denotes implication the premise the conclusion and represent true and false respectively premise conclusion inference the premises are false and the inference valid the conclusion can true false the premises are true and the conclusion false the inference must invalid the premises are true and the inference valid the conclusion must true sound argument valid argument whose premises are true sound argument therefore arrives true conclusion careful not confuse valid arguments with sound arguments delve further into the structure logical arguments would require lengthy discussion linguistics and philosophy simpler and probably more useful summarize the major pitfalls avoided when constructing argument these pitfalls are known fallacies everyday english the term fallacy used refer mistaken beliefs well the faulty reasoning that leads those beliefs this fair enough but logic the term generally used refer form technically incorrect argument especially the argument appears valid convincing for the purposes this discussion define fallacy logical argument which appears correct but which can seen incorrect when examined more closely studying fallacies aim avoid being misled them the following list fallacies not intended exhaustive argumentum baculum appeal force the appeal force committed when the arguer resorts force the threat force order try and push the acceptance conclusion often used politicians and can summarized might makes right the force threatened need not direct threat from the arguer for example thus there ample proof the truth the bible all those who refuse accept that truth will burn hell argumentum hominem argumentum hominem literally argument directed the man the abusive variety argumentum hominem occurs when instead trying disprove the truth assertion the arguer attacks the person people making the assertion this invalid because the truth assertion does not depend upon the goodness those asserting for example atheism evil philosophy practised communists and murderers sometimes court law doubt cast upon the testimony witness showing for example that known perjurer this valid way reducing the credibility the testimony given the witness and not argumentum hominem however does not demonstrate that the witness testimony false conclude otherwise fall victim the argumentum ignorantiam see elsewhere this list the circumstantial form argumentum hominem committed when person argues that his opponent ought accept the truth assertion because the opponent particular circumstances for example perfectly acceptable kill animals for food how can you argue otherwise when you quite happy wear leather shoes this abusive charge inconsistency used excuse for dismissing the opponent argument this fallacy can also used means rejecting conclusion for example course you would argue that positive discrimination bad thing you white this particular form argumentum hominem when one alleges that one adversary rationalizing conclusion formed from selfish interests also known poisoning the well argumentum ignorantium argumentum ignorantium means argument from ignorance this fallacy occurs whenever argued that something must true simply because has not been proved false equivalently when argued that something must false because has not been proved true note that this not the same assuming that something false until has been proved true basic scientific principle examples course the bible true nobody can prove otherwise course telepathy and other psychic phenomena not exist nobody has shown any proof that they are real note that this fallacy does not apply court law where one generally assumed innocent until proven guilty also scientific investigation known that event would produce certain evidence its having occurred the absence such evidence can validly used infer that the event did not occur for example flood described the bible would require enormous volume water present the earth the earth does not have tenth much water even count that which frozen into ice the poles therefore such flood occurred science can validly assume from lack evidence that something has not occurred cannot conclude with certainty that has not occurred however argumentum misericordiam this the appeal pity also known special pleading the fallacy committed when the arguer appeals pity for the sake getting conclusion accepted for example did not murder mother and father with axe please don find guilty suffering enough through being orphan argumentum populum this known appealing the gallery appealing the people commit this fallacy attempt win acceptance assertion appealing large group people this form fallacy often characterized emotive language for example pornography must banned violence against women the bible must true millions people know that are you trying tell them that they are all mistaken fools argumentum numeram this fallacy closely related the argumentum populum consists asserting that the more people who support believe proposition the more likely that that proposition correct argumentum verecundiam the appeal authority uses the admiration the famous try and win support for assertion for example isaac newton was genius and believed god this line argument not always completely bogus for example reference admitted authority particular field may relevant discussion that subject for example can distinguish quite clearly between stephen hawking has concluded that black holes give off radiation and john searle has concluded that impossible build intelligent computer hawking physicist and can reasonably expect his opinions black hole radiation informed searle linguist questionable whether well qualified speak the subject machine intelligence the fallacy accident the fallacy accident committed when general rule applied particular case whose accidental circumstances mean that the rule inapplicable the error made when one goes from the general the specific for example christians generally dislike atheists you are christian you must dislike atheists this fallacy often committed moralists and legalists who try decide every moral and legal question mechanically applying general rules converse accident hasty generalization this fallacy the reverse the fallacy accident occurs when one forms general rule examining only few specific cases which are not representative all possible cases for example jim bakker was insincere christian therefore all christians are insincere sweeping generalization dicto simpliciter sweeping generalization occurs when general rule applied particular situation which the features that particular situation render the rule inapplicable sweeping generalization the opposite hasty generalization non causa pro causa post hoc ergo propter hoc these are known false cause fallacies the fallacy non causa pro causa occurs when one identifies something the cause event but has not actually been shown the cause for example took aspirin and prayed god and headache disappeared god cured the headache the fallacy post hoc ergo propter hoc occurs when something assumed the cause event merely because happened before the event for example the soviet union collapsed after taking atheism therefore must avoid atheism for the same reasons cum hoc ergo propter hoc this fallacy similar post hoc ergo propter hoc asserts that because two events occur together they must causally related and leaves room for other factors that may the cause the events petitio principii this fallacy occurs when the premises are least questionable the conclusion reached circulus demonstrando this fallacy occurs when one assumes premise the conclusion which one wishes reach often the proposition will rephrased that the fallacy appears valid argument for example homosexuals must not allowed hold government office hence any government official who revealed homosexual will lose his job therefore homosexuals will anything hide their secret and will open blackmail therefore homosexuals cannot allowed hold government office note that the argument entirely circular the premise the same the conclusion argument like the above has actually been cited the reason for the british secret services official ban homosexual employees another example the classic know that god exists because the bible tells and know that the bible true because the word god complex question fallacy interrogation this the fallacy presupposition one example the classic loaded question have you stopped beating your wife the question presupposes definite answer another question which has not even been asked this trick often used lawyers cross examination when they ask questions like where did you hide the money you stole similarly politicians often ask loaded questions such how long will this interference our affairs allowed continue does the chancellor plan two more years ruinous privatization ignoratio elenchi the fallacy irrelevant conclusion consists claiming that argument supports particular conclusion when actually logically nothing with that conclusion for example christian may begin saying that will argue that the teachings christianity are undoubtably true then argues length that christianity great help many people matter how well argues will not have shown that christian teachings are true sadly such fallacious arguments are often successful because they arouse emotions which cause others view the supposed conclusion more favourable light equivocation equivocation occurs when key word used with two more different meanings the same argument for example what could more affordable than free software but make sure that remains free that users can what they like with must place license make sure that will always freely redistributable amphiboly amphiboly occurs when the premises used argument are ambiguous because careless ungrammatical phrasing accent accent another form fallacy through shifting meaning this case the meaning changed altering which parts statement are emphasized for example consider should not speak ill our friends and should not speak ill our friends fallacies composition one fallacy composition conclude that property shared the parts something must apply the whole for example the bicycle made entirely low mass components and therefore very lightweight the other fallacy composition conclude that property number individual items shared collection those items for example car uses less petrol and causes less pollution than bus therefore cars are less environmentally damaging than buses fallacy division the fallacy division the opposite the fallacy composition like its opposite exists two varieties the first assume that property some thing must apply its parts for example you are studying rich college therefore you must rich the other assume that property collection items shared each item for example ants can destroy tree therefore this ant can destroy tree the slippery slope argument this argument states that should one event occur will other harmful events there proof made that the harmful events are caused the first event for example legalize marijuana then would have legalize crack and heroin and have nation full drug addicts welfare therefore cannot legalize marijuana based fallacies type fallacies these fallacies occur when one attempts argue that things are some way similar without actually specifying what way they are similar examples isn history based upon faith then isn the bible also form history islam based faith christianity based faith isn islam form christianity cats are form animal based carbon chemistry dogs are form animal based carbon chemistry aren dogs form cat affirmation the consequent this fallacy argument the form implies true therefore true understand why fallacy examine the truth table for implication given earlier denial the antecedent this fallacy argument the form implies false therefore false again the truth table for implication makes clear why this fallacy note that this fallacy different from non causa pro causa the latter has the form implies false therefore false where does not fact imply all here the problem not that the implication invalid rather that the falseness does not allow deduce anything about converting conditional this fallacy argument the form then therefore then argumentum antiquitam this the fallacy asserting that something right good simply because old because that the way always been argumentum novitam this the opposite the argumentum antiquitam the fallacy asserting that something more correct simply because new newer than something else argumentum crumenam the fallacy believing that money criterion correctness that those with more money are more likely right argumentum lazarum the fallacy assuming that because someone poor she sounder more virtuous than one who wealthier this fallacy the opposite the argumentum crumenam argumentum nauseam this the incorrect belief that assertion more likely true the more often heard argumentum nauseum one that employs constant repetition asserting something bifurcation also referred the black and white fallacy bifurcation occurs when one presents situation having only two alternatives where fact other alternatives exist can exist plurium interrogationum many questions this fallacy occurs when questioner demands simple answer complex question non sequitur non sequitur argument where the conclusion drawn from premises which are not logically connected with red herring this fallacy committed when irrelevant material introduced the issue being discussed that everyone attention diverted away from the points being made towards different conclusion reification hypostatization reification occurs when abstract concept treated concrete thing shifting the burden proof the burden proof always the person making assertion proposition shifting the burden proof special case argumentum ignorantium the fallacy putting the burden proof the person who denies questions the assertion being made the source the fallacy the assumption that something true unless proven otherwise straw man the straw man fallacy misrepresent someone else position that can attacked more easily then knock down that misrepresented position then conclude that the original position has been demolished fallacy because fails deal with the actual arguments that have been made the extended analogy the fallacy the extended analogy often occurs when some suggested general rule being argued over the fallacy assume that mentioning two different situations argument about general rule constitutes claim that those situations are analogous each other this fallacy best explained using real example from debate about anti cryptography legislation believe always wrong oppose the law breaking such position odious implies that you would not have supported martin luther king are you saying that cryptography legislation important the struggle for black liberation how dare you quoque this the famous you too fallacy occurs when action argued acceptable because the other party has performed for instance you just being randomly abusive you been abusive too
alt.atheism	alt atheism faq overview for new readers archive name atheism overview alt atheism archive name overview last modified april version overview welcome alt atheism and alt atheism moderated this the first series regular postings aimed new readers the newsgroups many groups controversial nature have noticed that new readers often come with the same questions mis statements misconceptions and post them the net addition people often request information which has been posted time and time again order try and cut down this the alt atheism groups have series five regular postings under the following titles alt atheism faq overview for new readers alt atheism faq introduction atheism alt atheism faq frequently asked questions faq alt atheism faq constructing logical argument alt atheism faq atheist resources this article number please read numbers and before posting the others are entirely optional you are new usenet you may also find helpful read the newsgroup news announce newusers the articles titled primer how work with the usenet community answers frequently asked questions about usenet and hints writing style for usenet are particularly relevant questions concerning how news works are best asked news newusers questions you are unable find any the articles listed above see the finding stuff section below credits these files could not have been written without the assistance the many readers alt atheism and alt atheism moderated particular like thank the following people kck cmu edu karl kluge perry dsinc com jim perry netoprwa ncsuvm ncsu edu wayne aiken chpetk gdr bath toby kelsey jkp hut jyrki kuoppala geoff arnold east sun com geoff arnold torkel sics torkel franzen kmldorf utdallas edu george kimeldorf roe quads uchicago edu greg roelofs arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu ken arromdee madhaus netcom com maddi hausmann psuvm psu edu john johnson dgraham bmers bnr douglas graham mayne open fsu edu william mayne ajr bigbird hri com andy rosen stoesser ira uka achim stoesser bosullvn unix tcd bryan sullivan lippard ccit arizona edu james lippard rigel tamu edu baum ydobyns phoenix princeton edu york dobyns schroede sdsc edu wayne schroeder baldwin csservera usna navy mil baldwin nibby unhh unh edu dana nibby dempsey kodak com richard dempsey jmunch hertz elee calpoly edu john david munch pdc dcs paul crowley mips complang tuwien richard zach tycchow math mit edu tim chow simon dcs warwick simon clippingdale and countless others forgotten these articles are free truly free you may copy them and distribute them anyone you wish however please send any changes corrections the author and please not post copies the articles alt atheism does nobody any good have multiple versions the same document floating around the network finding stuff all the faq files should somewhere your news system here are some suggestions what you can find them check the newsgroup alt atheism look for subject lines starting with alt atheism faq check the newsgroup news answers for the same subject lines you don find anything steps your news system isn set correctly and you may wish tell your system administrator about the problem you have anonymous ftp access connect rtfm mit edu the directory pub usenet alt atheism and you find the latest versions the faq files there ftp way copying files between networked computers you need help using getting started with ftp send mail mail server rtfm mit edu with send usenet news answers ftp list faq the body there are other sites which also carry news answers postings the article introduction the news answers newsgroup carries list these sites the article posted regularly news answers you don have ftp send mail mail server rtfm mit edu consisting the following lines send usenet news answers finding sources send usenet alt atheism faq send usenet alt atheism introduction send usenet alt atheism logic send usenet alt atheism resources penultimate resort send mail mail server mantis consisting the following lines send atheism faq faq txt send atheism faq logic txt send atheism faq intro txt send atheism faq resource txt and our poor overworked modems will try and send you copy the files there other stuff too interesting commands try are help and send atheism index last resort mail mathew mantis post article the newsgroup asking how you can get the faq files you should only this you tried the above methods and they failed not nice clutter the newsgroup people mailboxes with requests for files better than posting without reading the faq though for instance people whose email addresses get mangled transit and who don have ftp will probably need assistance obtaining the faq files mathew
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics date apr gmt from bake timmons timmbake mcl ucsb edu these bible lovers have got chill out all could just relax and see atheism for what the funny pages could have more material atheism denies the existence god this logically bankrupt where the proof this nonexistence joke nobody can take the above sense atheism seriously perhaps perhaps because you just made now put your skateboard away and read the faq learn something about atheism before you get off these tangents
alt.atheism	help you god court don think there really any question about which god the courts mean the request for solemnly swearing help you god always made after request pick the bible your left hand and hold your right hand the courts least always old and new testament though hard imagine picking the bible and swearing whatever god sometimes the least the religious influence there court greensboro where the judge routinely has everyone the courtroom stand join him prayer the beginning every session thought about sitting through but not terribly anxious spend days jail
alt.atheism	nicknames article apr zeus calpoly edu jmunch hertz elee calpoly edu john munch wrote mathew faq can remember his last name keith lie tally sig ryan kent finn tastic sandvick cindy popsicle toes kandolf jim face sig tims simon clip that theist clippendale umar reasonable khan rob argue with strom dave buckminster fuller maddi never useful post hausmann hey what about affectionate nickname for you could take wrongly spelled surname cheers kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes atheism denies the existence god this logically bankrupt where the proof this nonexistence joke this one favorite fallacious points against atheism the belief that you can deny anything that you can prove doesn exist this easily nailed showing that infinite number beings are conceivable but not observed exist does this mean that would have believe all them according the above poster must believe objects beings that haven been proved not exist why stop god there could huge number beings identical ronald reagan except for trivial differences say one missing finger one has blond hair and they all live other planets can see them the reason one but atheists bring this that none these christians have vested interest these unknown beings with the exception god fine but why these people shoot themselves the foot and mock the idea god here again classic atheist fallacy how did they shoot themselves the foot radical muslims the crusades the inquisition are common examples that atheists like bring marks against religion how weak only fools can take that drivel seriously how about the grand daddy all human atrocities the stalinist movement twenty eight million people killed under this leadership which proudly featured atheism there big difference here stalin didn say that stood for particular moral position against murder and terrorism etc and then did the opposite like the religious movements was least honest killer this not support stalin but attack this viewpoint saying that atheism supports murder and violence just because one man was tyrant and atheist just bad logic look all the russians that helped stalin that weren atheists don they contradict your point besides your point assumes that his atheism was relevant his murdering people this just the common assumption that atheists can value life much theists which you didn support agnostics are not funny because they are more reasonable yet they some sense seem funny because they believe that the existence god unknowable this itself every bit the assumption that atheism though less arrogant and pompous and here another point you didn get out the faq atheist doesn have hold the positive view that god doesn exist she may just have the non existence the positive belief here the example strong atheism believe god does not exist positive belief weak atheism don believe god negative belief these are not the same some one that has never thought the idea god their whole life technically atheist but not the kind that you are calling unreasonable let look this way sets suppose that given person has huge set ideas that will represent capital letters and these people then either believe that these ideas exist real objects not santa then the person not believing santa but still having the idea santa but notice that even itself another idea this means you have lots cases christian yes yes where god atheist strong atheist weak all the set agnostic indeterminate why are people afraid say undecided must just another feature human nature undecided not sexy trendy glamorous word does not inspire much hate conflict not blasphemous not political fact too often taken mean unsophisticated nietzsche once said that man would rather will nonexistence than not will all but the darwinist way put this that humanity always prefers yes maybe because indecision not useful survival trait evolution has drilled take positions even false ones bake timmons iii
alt.atheism	christian morality vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes article jts news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes actually atheism based ignorance ignorance the existence any god don fall into the atheists don believe because their pride mistake how you know based ignorance couldn that wrong why would wrong fall into the trap that you mentioned wrong god free any time correct mistake that continues not while supposedly proclaiming his undying love for eternal soul speaks volumes what are the volumes that speaks besides the fact that leaves your choices you for the trap you are not position tell that don believe god because not wish unless you can know motivations better than myself you should believe when say that earnestly searched for god for years and never found him definitely agree that rather presumptuous for either side give some psychological reasoning for another belief mac bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea michael cobb and won raise taxes the middle university illinois class pay for programs champaign urbana bill clinton debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts still have billion dollar deficits
alt.atheism	koresh god from mathew mathew mantis the latest news seems that koresh will give himself once finished writing sequel the bible article psilink com robert knowles psilink com writes writing the seven seals something along those lines already written the first the seven which was around pages and has handed over assistant for proofreading would expect any decent messiah have built spellchecker maybe koresh will come with one heard had asked the fbi provide him with word processor does anyone know koresh has requested that wordperfect was written and owned mormons the theological implications requesting refusing are profound darin wilkins scubed scubed com will president for food
alt.atheism	you will all hell article pts psuvm psu edu pts psuvm psu edu writes pitt penn state controversy deleted bringing this back alt atheism relevance the guy says going hell that isn sufficient cause bitch the system operator worst bad etiquette unless you really believe that someone using his account without his knowledge permission which actually against the law patrick saxton pitt second rate school second rate city pts psuvm psu edu anon pts ecl psu edu atheism batman trust wouldn sufficient cause bitch the system operator this was just some guy saying that atheists are going hell the point was that recently many messages were posted from that address each these messages was posted different newsgroup with the apparent intent provoking the readers that particular group this along with the fact that these posts were written all caps makes these posts suspect whoever using this account using irresponsibly the intended user they should consider appropriate action someone else which seems possibility then this also reason report get many posts the flavor the one that started this thread only because have seen posts other groups this user that considering action brendan
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics thanks whoever posted this wonderful parody people who post without reading the faq was laughing for good minutes were there any parts the faq that weren mentioned think there might have been one two please don tell this wasn joke not ready hear that yet brendan
alt.atheism	morality constant was biblical rape bill conner bil okcforum osrhe edu wrote there are couple things about your post and others this thread that are little confusing atheist one for whom all things can understood processes nature exclusively this definition does not include all atheists see the faq however for one think there need invoke any divine spiritual explanations makes big difference claim that all things can understood natural processes and claim that our observations not require postulate any divine intervention anything spiritual for that matter humans are not omnipotent and neither science however science has one advantage theology doesn self correcting with nature its judge delightful see how scientific inquiry revealing self consistent simple picture our universe science longer bunch separate branches one from particle physics psychology and aspect our life our universe safe from its stern and stony eye not even our consciousness there need for any recourse divnity describe explain anything there purpose direction for any event beyond those required physics chemistry biology etc everything random nothing determnined actually determinism indeterminism philosophical question and science cannot say whether the whole thing actually somehow superdeterministic not think the question does not have any meaning far individual human beings their apparent free will illusion does not appear from their perspective bill can you say for sure whether you have free will not this would also have include human intelligence course and all its products there nothing requiring that life evolve that acquire intelligence just happy accident maybe who are tell seems intelligence useful when during the history earth has one species been able control one third the whole biosphere this can still result numerous happy accidents our genetic machinery blindly replicates and preserves even that machinery can result the same principle only the systems that can start replicating will survive those which don don make recommended reading for atheist event can preferred another said have more less value than another any naturalistic sense and thought about event can have value from whose perspective value events and things subjectively from perspective nature does not have values because does not have perspective values arise from awareness have subjective perspective easy assume that other people also and think about what would like their position will eventually discover the golden rule morality not necessarily gift from heavens fact may product evolution perhaps are aware ourselves because sense identity helpful allows play the roles others and make respect others who seem have identity too bill have you ever read aristotle try his ethica nikomakhea for starters how then can atheist judge value what the basis for criticizing the values ennumerated the bible the purposes imputed god what grounds can the the behavior the reliogious condemned seems that judging the values that motivate others action you have have some standard against which conduct measured but what nature can serve that purpose what law nature can you invoke establish your values lewis tells that this argument was the main reason why abandoned his atheism and became christian the argument severely flawed some values such the golden rule can have rational basis some others like the basic idea wanting live has probably its roots the way our brains are wired lewis ignored the very real possiblity that natural selection could also favour altruistic behaviour and morality well indeed humans evolved better and better building and using tools they also became better killing each other logical necessity that evolution could only favour those who knew how use tools but not against one own people the bible reveals quite nicely that the morality the early jews was not beyond this simple set rules hold the people together under one god their god did not care much about people other nations the time the things were quite different the jews were under rule empire and could longer simply ignore the gentiles new situation required new morality and along with new religion was born mutation meme pool since every event entirely and exclusively physical event what difference could possibly make what anyone does religious otherwise there can meaning gradation value the only way atheist can object any behaviour admit that the objection entirely subjective and that she just doesn like that any value judgement must prefaced the disclaimer that nothing more than matter personal opinion and carries weight any absolute sense looks like you haven bothered read philosophy whenever there observer there subjective point view which may value its existence and happiness even that were just result some physical event and other happiness too the observer comes think about absolutely objective sense that without any observers subjects moral judgments lose their meaning not possible for value simply exist without point view this includes gods too their values are only their personal judgments not absolute truths since such truths not exist the fact that most people not deliberately want hurt others manifestation the way have fought for our existence becoming social beings who can think and value others existence morality not property humans alone chimps dolphins and many other species show great care for each other dolphins have sometimes saved humans from drowning good deed indeed that you don like what god told people says nothing about god god commands says only that there was electrical event your nervous system that created emotional state that your mind coupled with pre existing thought set form that reaction that your objections seem well founded due the way you been conditioned there truth content the whole your intellectual landscape illusion virtual reality the last statement does not logically follow fact there every reason believe our thoughts can model reality very well and our senses can convey reliable information solipsism still logical possibility but not very likely one you are continuously mixing two different views the subjective point view which all share and objective point view which does not exist any observer thinker any personal being has its own point view does not matter whether this point view result some physical events not does not cease subjective from non observers non point view values not exist neither does pain pleasure beauty love such things are inherently subjective once again god wants wives submit their husbands even make leap faith into the unknown wants punish don disagree with his morals not think morals come from any supreme being remove morals means the same than make zombie machine without single thought god gave morality judge but disagree with him not fault free replace morals cannot see what the point giving someone moral system which disagrees with one own and then get mad this god must schizophrenic all this being you have excluded yourself from any discussion values right wrong goood evil etc and cannot participate your opinion about the bible can have weight whatsoever neither can the opinion any god for that matter cannot understand why subjective opinion thing made matter any way less credible than opinion thing made something else bill take note absolute values must independent any being including gods god has subjective viewpoint his own point view and his morals are his own petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics the truth pihatie finou oulu physics the rule oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu chemistry the game
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes refuting nothing but simply telling you what see which childish propaganda and nothing refuted bcci was not islamic bank this post has nothing with islamic banks tiring this infantile garbage simply evaluated such could you maybe flesh out just bit did miss the full grandeur content virtue blinding atheism you may having difficulty seeing the light because you have your head your ass suggest making sure this not the case before posting again time for your lesson debate gregg yeah right begin included text from vice news tek com uunet psinntp wrldlnk usenet sun apr pdt noticed post this topic soc religion islam and since the topic the bcci being not being islamic bank has come have left the one mention the bcci bank called how bcci adapted the koran rules banking from this bibliography bennett neil how bcci adapted the koran rules banking the times august let see some guy writes piece with title that implies something the case then must that this how you support position you intend have anyone respect gregg any questions and even managed include the above reference with head firmly engaged ass what your excuse this supports nothing have reason believe that this piece anything other than another anti islamic slander job have respect for titles only for real content can look this article want true but can tell you bcci was not islamic bank seeing spending time responding propaganda responding this little sub thread really don feel deep need more than make statements the effect that the propaganda false someone wants discuss the issue more seriously then glad have real discussion providing references etc gregg
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes rule don mix apples with oranges how can you say that the extermination the mongols was worse than stalin khan conquered people unsympathetic his cause that was atrocious but stalin killed millions his own people who loved and worshipped him and his atheist state how can anyone worse than that you right and david koresh claimed christian
alt.atheism	some thoughts bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes niether was lunatic would more than entire nation drawn someone who was crazy find encyclopedia volume now look hitler adolf had many more people than just germans enamoured with him moorcockpratchettdenislearydelasoulu iainmbanksneworderheathersbatmanpjorourke clive come let retract the foreskin misconception james trinity college dublin and apply the wire brush enlightenment geoffm brownbladerunnersugarcubeselectronicblaylockpowersspikeleekatebushhamcornpizza
alt.atheism	the pope jewish west next cville wam umd edu stilgar writes the pope jewish guess they right and always thought that the thing his head was just fancy hat not jewish headpiece don remember the name all clear now clear mud what that headpiece chort crl nmsu edu source newswire the vatican home genetic misfits michael gillow noted geneticist has revealed some unusual data after working undercover the vatican for the past years the popehat actually advanced bone spur reveals gillow his groundshaking report gillow who had secretly studied the innermost workings the vatican since returning from vietnam wheel chair first approached the scientific community with his theory the late the whole hat thing that was just cover the vatican didn want the catholic community realize their leader was hefting nearly kilograms extraneous bone tissue the top his skull notes gillow his report there are whole laboratories the vatican that experiment with tissue transplants and bone marrow experiments what started genetic fluke the mid now scientifically engineered and bred for the whole bone transplant idea started the mid sixties inspired doctor timothy leary transplanting deer bone cells into small white rats gillow quick point out the assassination attempt pope john paul and the disappearance leary from the public eye when becomes time replace the pope says gillow the old pope and the replacement pope are locked padded chamber they butt heads much like male yaks fighting for dominance the herd the victor emerges and has earned the privilege inseminating the choir boys moorcockpratchettdenislearydelasoulu iainmbanksneworderheathersbatmanpjorourke clive come let retract the foreskin misconception james trinity college dublin and apply the wire brush enlightenment geoffm brownbladerunnersugarcubeselectronicblaylockpowersspikeleekatebushhamcornpizza
alt.atheism	free moral agency and jeff clark article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy writes deletion you also said why did millions suffer for what adam and did seems pretty sick way going about creating universe gonna respond giving small theology lesson forgive used theology major first all believe that this planet involved cosmic struggle the great controversy betweed christ and satan borrowed book title god has consider the interests the entire universe when making decisions deletion universe has created the way can you tell why less tyrannic let one one own creatures what likes others your definitions your god has created satan with full knowledge what would happen including every choice satan can you explain what free will and how goes along with omniscience didn your god know everything that would happen even before created the world why concerned about being tyrant when noone would care everything was fine for them that the whole idea comes from the possibility abuse power something your god introduced according your description the way are you sure that you have read the faq especially the part about preaching benedikt
alt.atheism	the pope jewish article apr wam umd edu west next cville wam umd edu stilgar writes last night while watching the rebroadcast jerry springer talk show heard this jewel thought from year old racist the focus this show was these kids and their hatred for the jewish religion and why some stuff deleted interesting and scary they went say how the jews had killed their god and how the end time that all the races would their homelands course they would remain america which new jeruselem says gen what another kid said but the rest the races would home and then the great battle plague whatever revel says would happen and the jews would killed the most interesting thing about this was that roomate catholic and had the kjv the bible his desk immediatly opened and began search for the quoted passages gen rev and john look for himself and couldn find what they said they saw don know saw this show while back and when heard these kids quote the bible justify their racist claims looked that quote about jesus hating jews since jesus himself was jew curiousity had been piqued such claim the jist the passage and sorry but can recall which passage was exactly was that jesus was condemning the pharisees for being corrupt course the pharisees were jewish too but wasn jews whole that jesus was condemning just the powers that nancy connor psychology undergrad the opinions express simon fraser university are own burnaby canada
alt.atheism	silly question tianity werdna cco caltech edu andrew tong writes mccullou snake wisc edu mark mccullough writes question this attitude god character seems awfully egotistical and proud but christianity tells people humble what the deal well god pretty much has right egotistical and proud mean created you doesn have the right proud such job course people don have much right proud what have they accomplished that can match god accomplishments anyways how their abilities compare with those god imbecile worm the earth quote pascal grumblegrumble you were god and you created universe wouldn you just little irked some self organizing cell globules tiny planet started thinking they were great and awesome you unfortunately the logic falls apart quick all perfect insulted threatened the actions lesser creature actually offspring how why shuold any all powerful all perfect feel either proud offended anything capable being aware the relationship every aspect every particle the universe during every moment time simultaneously should able understand the cause every action every cell globule each tniy planet well actually now that think seems kinda odd that god would care all about the earth was bad example but the amazing fact that does care apparently and that was willing make some grand sacrifices ensure our happiness all powerful owner everything the universe makes great sacrifices makes great headline but doesn make any sense what did sacrifice where did that couldn get back gave something who give chris you guys have fun agoin key west
alt.atheism	don beleive you either article apr antioc antioch edu smauldin antioc antioch edu writes stopped believing you well long before the invention technology god ahhh back alt autotheism where you belong brian
alt.atheism	genocide caused theism evidence article qid fct horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes don see anything special about theism general that makes particular hazard more than say stupidity anarchy patriotism course depends the religion but see nothing about believing gods that and itself entails even promotes xenophobia genocide etc the emphasis the general then course you correct since you haven really said anything restrict our observations practiced religions there are lots examples god mandated genocide just ask the canaanites the point that you believe god and you believe has ordered you eliminate entire race you will likely make the attempt after all was the past could surely the present bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	free moral agency and jeff clark article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes this the reason like the controversy post modernism the issues polarities evil and good are just artificial constructs and they fall apart during closer inspection the more look into the notion constant struggle between the evil and good forces the more sounds like metaphor that people just assume without closer inspection more info please not well exposed these ideas bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	political atheists article apr news wesleyan edu ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu scott sauyet writes qabe innaff gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu writes chimpanzees fight wars over land but chimps are almost human keith could this the last message from schneider and more than three days old are these his final words and how many here would find that appropriate just that finals got the way the christians were leary having atheist spokesman seems clandestine and all that they had him removed course keith busy explaining his fellow captives how isn really being persecuted since after all they are feeding him and any resistance his part would only viewed trouble making understand did make bit fuss when they tatooed god trust his forehead though bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	new member article hiew portal videocart com dfuller portal videocart com dave fuller writes hello just started reading this group today and think going large participant its daily postings liked the section the faq about constructing logical arguments well done atheist but not try turn other people into atheists only try figure why people believe the way they don much care they have different view than when comes down could wrong willing admit the possibility something religious followers dont seem have the capability welcome aboard notice alot posts from bobby why does anybody ever respond his posts always falls back the same argument think you just answered your own question there the religion followed will cause bad right just because event was explained human have been done the name religion does not mean that actually followed the religion will always point the ideal and say that wasn followed can the reason for the event there really way argue with him why bother sure you may get upset because his answer blind and not supported factually but will win every time with his little argument don think there will any postings from direct response one his most responses were against his postings that spouted the fact that all atheists are fools evil for not seeing how peachy islam would leave the pro con arguments islam fred rice who more level headed and seems know more the subject anyway happy aboard how did you know was going welcome you abord dave fuller dfuller portal videocart com brian
alt.atheism	free moral agency article house helios house helios usq edu ron house writes marshall csugrad edu kevin marshall writes healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy writes you might think yeah then why didn god destroy the bud before got the point now with millions through the ages suffering along life the only answer know that satan made the claim that his way was better than god god allowing satan the chance prove that his way better than god all know what that has brought come god allowing the wishes one individual supercede the well being billions seriously doubt having read the bible twice never got the impression that god and satan were working some sort cooperative arrangement read the book job that was just bet brian
alt.atheism	some thoughts sold where sign brian the next book charles manson lord lunatic liar
alt.atheism	some thoughts bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes some reasons why wouldn liar are follows who would die for lie wouldn people able tell was liar people gathered around him and kept doing many gathered from hearing seeing someone who was had been healed call fool but believe did heal people anyone who dies for cause runs the risk dying for lie for people being able tell was liar well had grifters and charlatans since the beginning civilization david copperfield had been the messiah bet could have found plenty believers jesus was hardly the first claim faith healer and wasn the first witnessed what sets him apart niether was lunatic would more than entire nation drawn someone who was crazy very doubtful fact rediculous for example anyone who drawn david koresh obviously fool logical people see this right away rubbish nations have followed crazies liars psychopaths and megalomaniacs throughout history hitler tojo mussolini khomeini qadaffi stalin papa doc and nixon come mind all from this century koresh non issue therefore since wasn liar lunatic must have been the real thing take discrete mathematics formal logic course there are flaws your logic everywhere and sure others will tell you read the faq some other things note fulfilled loads prophecies the psalms isaiah and elsewhere hrs alone this his betrayal and crucifixion don have bible with this moment next time write will use course you have believe the bible first just because something written the bible does not mean true and the age that tome plus the lack external supporting evidence makes less credible you quote from the bible the future try back that quote with supporting evidence otherwise you will get flamed mercilessly don think most people understand what christian certainly not what see lot churches rather think should way life and total sacrafice everything for god sake loved enough die and save should the same hey can god himself inspires turn our lives over him that tuff and most people don want real christian would something for the strong persevere but just like weight lifting guitar playing drums whatever takes time don rush one day christianity your whole life not going church once week helping poor people once while box everything into time units such work this time sports social life god above these boxes and should carried with into all these boxes that have created for ourselves just like weight lifting guitar playing don know how you define the world total but would imagine total sacrafice everything for god sake would involve more than time commitment you are correct about our tendency box everything into time units would you explain how one should involove god sports and hehehe television kevin marshall computer science department virginia tech marshall csugrad edu blacksburg virginia
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism kmr cwru edu kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes wait you just said that humans are rarely reasonable doesn that contradict atheism where everything explained through logic and reason this the contradiction atheism that proves false bobby mozumder proving the existence allah does anybody have bobby post which said something like don know why there are more men than women islamic countries maybe atheists killing the female children personal favorite sami aario can you see measure atom yet you can explode tut one sunlight comprised many atoms your stupid minds stupid stupid eros plan from outer space disclaimer don agree with eros
alt.atheism	some thoughts did you read the faqs read the faqs yes you wouldn have posted such drivel the lord liar lunatic argument false trilemma even you disprove liar and lunatic which you haven you have not eliminated the other possibilities such mistaken misdirected misunderstood you have arbitrarily set three and only three possibilities without considering others read good book rhetoric and critical thinking you think the lord liar lunatic discussion example good argument you are need learning read the faqs again especially constructing logical argument ignore these instructions your peril disobeying them leaves you open for righteous flaming maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california kids please don try this home remember post professionally
alt.atheism	slavery was why sex only allowed marriage this all sounds nice everyone helping each other and always smiling and fluffy bunnies everywhere wake people are just not like that seems evident from history that society has succeeded when had rely upon the goodwill and unselfishness the people isn obvious from places like iran that even there are only few greedy people society then they are going attracted positions power sounds like recipe for disaster looking historical evidence such perfect utopian islamic states didn survive agree people are people and even you might start islamic revolution and create this perfect state takes some time and the internal corruption will destroy the ground rules again cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	slavery was why sex only allowed marriage article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice wrote anyhow the basis the apparent success islamic banks seems that the statement that zero interest economy cannot survive today world may bit premature sure zero intested economical systems survive small scale ops not islamic invention and have operatives working all around the world however such systems don stand the corruption large scale operation actually nothing could handle human greed imho not even allah cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	new member article hiew portal videocart com dfuller portal videocart com dave fuller wrote right just because event was explained human have been done the name religion does not mean that actually followed the religion will always point the ideal and say that wasn followed can the reason for the event there really way argue with him why bother sure you may get upset because his answer blind and not supported factually but will win every time with his little argument don think there will any postings from direct response one his hey glad have some serious and constructive contributors this newsgroup agree the statement above you might argue with bobby for eons and still does not get the best thing spare your mental resources discuss more interesting issues cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism article qjfnv ogt horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer wrote does the term hero worship mean anything you yes worshipping jesus the super saver indeed hero worshipping the grand scale worshipping lenin that will make life pleasant for the working people somehow similar what understand that gods are defined supernatural not merely superhuman the notion lenin was the borderline supernatural insights into how change the world wasn communist god but was the man who gave presents kids during christmas actually agree things are always relative and you can have direct mapping between movement and cause however the notion that communist russia was somewhat the typical atheist country only something that robertson tilton rest would believe those atheists were not true unbelievers huh don know what they were but they were fanatics indeed cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	some thoughts article bissda saturn wwc edu bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell wrote first want start right out and say that christian makes sense one have any you read tony campollo book liar lunatic the real thing might little off the title but writes the book anyway was part effort destroy christianity the process became christian himself seems didn understand anything about realities liar lunatic the real thing very narrow view the possibilities jesus message sigh seems religion makes your mind brain filter out anything that does not fit into your personal scheme anyone that thinks the possibilities with jesus bound the classical lewis notion liar lunatic saint indeed bound become christian cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism article qjf horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes article qimbe fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article qif horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes article qialf fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes forget the origin the quote but gotta use words when talk you atheist one who lacks belief gods yes then entirely plausible that atheist could dig lenin lennon such extent that might considered worship and still atheist anything else seems newspeak ask yourself the following question would you regard ardent nazi republican simply because germany longer had kaiser because that based false dichotomy there are more options than you present and that course the point you can simply divide the world into atheists and non atheists the basis god belief all you care about belief supernatural deity and have nothing say about behaviour then belief supernatural being your criterion but once you start talking about behaviour then someone suscept ibility led bad people into doing bad things what you are assume worried about and that area what you care about whether someone sceptical critical and autonomous the one hand gullible excitable and easily led the other would say that tendency worship tyrants and ideologies indicates that person easily led whether they have worship belief supernatural hero rather than earthly one seems beside the point jon
alt.atheism	some thoughts article edm apr gocart twisto compaq com edm twisto compaq com mccreary writes thu apr gmt bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell said dlb first want start right out and say that christian dlb makes sense one have any you read tony campollo book liar dlb lunatic the real thing might little off the title but dlb writes the book anyway was part effort destroy christianity dlb the process became christian himself here again just the friendly folks christian central come save you
alt.atheism	islamic genocide article qjipo pen horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes article qinmd fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes any rate even your interpretation correct this does not imply that the killings are religously motivated which was the original poster seeming claim tricky tricky replying your blanket claim that they are not religiously motivated they aren irish catholics the south not kill irish protestants the south yet have precisely the same history behind them those who think the killings are religously motivated ignore the rather obvious matter british occupation partition and misguided patriotism both sides false dichotomy you claimed the killing were not religiously motivated and saying that wrong not saying that each and every killing religiously motivate spelled out detail the problems fault along the religious divide because the historical roots this thing have catholic country partitioned and populated protestant one the grotesque killing soldiers and civilians supposedly motivated patriotism civil rights issues and revenge only difficult understand insofaras insanity hard understand religion need not invoked explain does anyone else see the contradiction this paragraph but claim that the killings are not religously motivated grotesque all that means that the church and believers are doing what they always with history they can face they rewrite you attacking different claim claim that when ira terrorist plants bomb warrington does not have motive the greater glory god sorry frank but what put quotes your own words from your posting horus mchp sni don tell now that different claim you can longer stand behind your original claim just say jon
alt.atheism	don beleive you either article apr antioc antioch edu smauldin antioc antioch edu writes stopped believing you well long before the invention technology god don listen this guy just crank first this business about being the one true god was tolerated the rest but now has gotten completely out hand besides really isn bad when people stop believing you much more relaxing when mortals aren always begging you for favors zeus
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes article kmr cwru edu kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes state that know that there green marble closed box which have never seen nor have any evidence for its existance would guilty deceit even there fact green marble inside the question whether not there green marble inside irrelevent you ahead and play with your marbles love love love wish could fit all that into sig file someone keeping list bobby quotes sure include this one stating unproven opinion fact deceit and knowingly being decietful falsehood and lie why you think its unproven opinion said something fact but you think its opinion because you not accept then who right the flat earthers state that the earth flat fact don accept this think unproven opinion and think the round earthers are right because they have better evidence than the flat earthers although can prove that god doesn exist the arguments used support god existence are weak and often self contradictory and not going believe god unless someone comes over and gives reason believe god that absolutely can ignore while ago read interesting book fellow called von daenicken which proved some the wildest things and the last page wrote something like can you prove isn certainly can but not going believe him because based his proof some really questionable stuff such old myths called circumstancial evidence far atheism hasn made kill anyone and regarded quite agreeable fellow really sami aario can you see measure atom yet you can explode tut one sunlight comprised many atoms your stupid minds stupid stupid eros plan from outer space disclaimer don agree with eros
alt.atheism	islamic authority sic over women who kmr cwru edu keith ryan what kmr cwru edu with rush leland stanford edu what apr leland stanford edu other readers just joined but this guy for real simply amazed sadly yes don loose any sleep over old zlumber just have some fun with him but basically harmless least you don work city don find hard believe that ole zlumber really believes the hate and ignorant prattle writes the frightening thought there are people even worse than say that feminism equals superiority over men laughable long doesn then proceed pick rifle and start shoot women preemptive strike aka the canada slaughter that occured few years ago but then men killing women nothing new islamic fundamentalists just have better excuse ran from the vancouver sun thursday october john davidson canadian press montreal perhaps the letter the five year old daughter that shocks the most hope one day you will old enough understand what happened your parents wrote patrick prevost loved your mother with passion that went far hatred police found the piece paper near prevost body his apartment northeast montreal they say the year old mechanic committed suicide after killing his wife jocelyne parent the couple had been separated for month and the woman had gone his apartment talk about getting some more money for food violent quarrel broke out and prevost attacked his wife with kitchen knife cutting her throat police said she was only the latest women slain husband lover quebec the last five weeks five children have also been slain result the same domestic battles last year quebec alone women were slain their husbands that was more than one third such cases across canada according statistics from the canadian centre for justice rest article ommited then say that women are somehow better should the one stay home and raise child also laughable women have traditionally done hard labor support family often more than men many cultures throughout history seems takes least two adults raise child and that both should stay home maximus
alt.atheism	feminism and islam again article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes article apr eagle wesleyan edu kmagnacca eagle wesleyan edu writes there way around that via the hadith which state that silence taken mean yes and that women may not speak before judge who must conduct the marriage actaully that false hadith because contradicts verses the quran that says women may testify speak before judge hadiths are declared false when they contradict the quran hadiths weren written during the revelation during the life the prophet and may contain errors the only way you can tell false hadith from true one contradicts the quran what relates something that isn explicitly spelled out the quran also the quran wasn written down during the life muhammed either wasn long after but years still long enough shift few verses around karl lastly come china the hope all you touch and all you see fulfilling lifelong ambition all your life will ever dropping acid the great wall duke pink floyd lie still lie even billion people believe
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality article apr abo mandtbacka finabo abo mats andtbacka writes qie fkt horus mchp sni frank uucp writes article ursa bear com halat pooh bears jim halat writes one those people who does not know what the word objective means when put next the word morality assume its idiom and cannot defined its separate terms give try objective morality morality built from objective values and these objective values are please specific and more importantly motivate take wild guess and say freedom objectively valuable base this the assumption that everyone the world were deprived utterly their freedom that their every act was contrary their volition almost all would want complain therefore take that assert believe that freedom not very valuable when almost everyone can see that every bit absurd assert not raining rainy day take this candidate for objective value and necessary condition for objective morality that objective values such this exist frank dwyer not hatching that odwyer sse from hens evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie anecdote about islam article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes article nrl navy mil khan itd itd nrl navy mil umar khan writes just borrowed book from the library khomeini fatwa etc found this useful passage regarding the legitimacy the fatwa was also common knowledge prescribed islamic law that the sentence was only applicable where the jurisdiction islamic law applies moreover the sentence has passed islamic court and executed the state machinery through the due process the law even islamic countries let alone non muslim lands individuals cannot take the law into their own hands the sentence when passed must carried out the state through the usual machinery and not individuals indeed becomes criminal act take the law into one own hands and punish the offender unless the process self defence moreover the offender must brought the notice the court and the court who shoud decide how deal with him this law applies equally muslim well non muslim territories agree fully with the above statement and precisely what meant previous statements about islam not being anarchist and the law not being enforcible despite the law being applicable hence such clarification from the ulama islamic scholars muslims britain before and after imam khomeini fatwa made very clear that since islamic law not applicable britain the hadd compulsory punishment cannot applied here disagree with this conclusion about the applicability the islamic law all muslims wherever they may the above conclusion does not strictly follow from the foregoing but only the conclusion that the fatwa cannot enforced according islamic law however agree that the punishment cannot applied rushdie even were well founded wow from the above looks like that from islamic viewpoint khomeini fatwa constitutes criminal act perhaps could even out limb and call khomeini criminal this basis certainly putting price the head rushdie britain criminal act according islamic law anyhow think understood knowledgeable muslims that khomeini fatwa islamically illegitimate least the basis expounded above others such myself and others who have posted here particularly umar khan and gregg jaeger think further and say that even the punishment constituted the fatwa against islamic law according our understanding yes gregg
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice wrote understanding that generally agreed upon the ulema islamic scholars that islamic law applies only islamic country which the not furthermore take the law into one own hands criminal act these are matters for the state not for individuals nevertheless khomeini offered cash prize for people take the law into their own hands something which understanding against islamic law yes this also understanding the majority islamic laws however believe there are also certain legal rulings which all five schools law sunni and jaffari can levelled against muslim non muslims both within and outside dar islam not know apostasy when accompanied active persistent and open hostility islam falls into this category the law know that historically apostasy has very rarely been punished all let alone the death penalty understanding that khomeini ruling was not based the law apostasy alone was well known that rushdie was apostate long before wrote the offending novel and certainly there precedent the qur hadith islamic history for indiscriminantly levelling death penalties for apostasy believe the charge levelled against rushdie was that fasad this ruling applies both within and outside the domain islamic state and can carried out individuals the reward was not offered khomeini but individuals within iran stuff deleted also think you are muddying the issue you seem assume that khomeini fatwa was issued due the distribution the book understanding that khomeini fatwa was issued response the writing and publishing the book view correct then your viewpoint that rushdie was sentenced for crime progress incorrect would concur that the thrust the fatwa from what remember was levelled the author and all those who assisted the publication the book however the charge fasad can encompass number lesser charges remember that when diplomatic relations broke off between britain and iran over the fatwa iran stressed that the condemnation the author and the removal the book from circulation were two preliminary conditions for resolving the crisis but you are correct point out that banning the book was not the main thrust behind the fatwa islamic charges such fasad are levelled people not books the rushdie situation was followed iran for several months before the issuance the fatwa rushdie went media blitz presenting himself lone knight guarding the sacred values secular democracy and mocking the foolish concerns people crazy enough actually hold their religious beliefs sacred fanning the flames and milking the controversy boost his image and push the book was everywhere the media then muslim demonstrators several countries were killed while protesting against the book rushdie appeared momentarily concerned then climbed back his media horse once again attack the muslims and defend his sacred rights was this point that the fatwa fasad was issued the fatwa was levelled the person rushdie any actions rushdie that feed the situation contribute the legitimization the ruling the book remains circulation not some independant will its own but the will the author and the publishers the fatwa against the person rushdie encompasses his actions well the crime was certainly crime progress many levels and was being played out and played the the full view the media not sure about this but think the charge shatim also applies rushdie and may encompassed under the umbrella the fasad ruling
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law what about the twelve imams who considered incapable error sin khomeini supports this view the twelve imans this heresy for the very reasons gave above would happy discuss the issue the imams with you although preference would move the discussion another newsgroup feel philosophy religion group would more appropriate the topic deeply embedded the world view islam and the esoteric teachings the prophet heresy does not enter into all except for those who see islam only exoteric religion that only nominally all concerned with the metaphysical substance man being and nature good introductory book fact one the best introductory books islam general murtaza mutahhari fundamental islamic thought god man and the universe mizan press translated campbell truly beautiful book follow book you can find decent translation wilaya the station the master the same author think also goes under the title master and mastership very small book really just transcription lecture the author the introduction the beautiful psalms islam translated william chittick available through muhammadi trust great britain also excellent introduction the subject have these books our university library imagine any well stocked university library will have them from your posts you seem fairly well versed sunni thought you should seek know shi ite thought through knowledgeable shi ite authors well least that much respect due before the charge heresy levelled salaam laikum
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism article qif horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes article qialf fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article egl horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes stuff deleted the newsgroup large how about this for deal recognise that what happened former communist russia has much bearing the validity atheism has the doings sundry theists the validity their theism that zip nada none the fallacy known hominem and old one should the holy faq the book constructing logical argument apart from not making lot sense this wrong there atheist creed that taught any communist what the name atheism there clearly are theistic creeds and instructions how act for theists they all madly conflict with one another but that another issue lack instructions how act might also evil that like saying that since mathematics includes instructions how act evil atheism not moral system why should speak instructions how act atheism simply lack belief god plenty theists think one could argue the case for atheism causes whatever didn like about the former ussr with much validity theism causes genocide that say validity all think the argument that particular theist system causes genocide can made more convincingly than argument that atheism causes genocide this because theist systems contain instructions how act and one more these can shown cause genocide however since the atheist set instructions the null set how can you show that atheism causes genocide david choweller davec silicon csci csusb edu there are scores thousands human insects who are ready moment notice reveal the will god every possible subject george bernard shaw there are scores thousands human insects who are ready moment notice reveal the will god every possible subject george bernard shaw
alt.atheism	the nonexistance atheists article bskendigc jcwx jzn netcom com bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes quotes deleted really looks like these people have idea all what means atheist there are more bobby mozumder clones the world than thought well that explains some things posted soc religion islam with attached quote bobby the effect that all atheists are lying evil scum and asked was commonly held idea among muslims got response asking about the unknown guess karl lastly come china the hope all you touch and all you see fulfilling lifelong ambition all your life will ever dropping acid the great wall duke pink floyd lie still lie even billion people believe
alt.atheism	some thoughts article bissda saturn wwc edu bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes appears that walla walla college will fill the same role alt atheist that allegheny college fills alt fan dan quayle first want start right out and say that christian makes sense one have any you read tony campollo book liar lunatic the real thing might little off the title but writes the book anyway was part effort destroy christianity the process became christian himself converts xtianity have this tendency excessively darken their pre xtian past frequently falsely anyone who embarks effort destroy xtianity suffering from deep megalomania defect which not cured religious conversion the arguements uses summing the book about whether jesus was god not know many you don believe but listen different perspective for all have something gain listening what others have say different perspective different perspective bwahahahahahahahah the book says that jesus was either liar was crazy modern day koresh was actually who said was sigh perhaps big was just mistaken about some his claims perhaps was normally insightful but had few off days perhaps many most the statements attributed jesus were not made him but were put into his mouth later authors other possibilities abound surely someone seriously examining this question could come with decent list possible alternatives unless the task not serious examination the question much less destroying xtianity but rather religious salesmanship some reasons why wouldn liar are follows who would die for lie how many germans died for nazism how many russians died the name the proletarian dictatorship how many americans died make the world safe for democracy what silly question wouldn people able tell was liar people gathered around him and kept doing many gathered from hearing seeing someone who was had been healed call fool but believe did heal people everyone who performs healing god niether was lunatic would more than entire nation drawn someone who was crazy probably hard draw entire nation you unless you are crazy very doubtful fact rediculous for example anyone who drawn david koresh obviously fool logical people see this right away therefore since wasn liar lunatic must have been the real thing anyone who convinced this laughable logic deserves xtian some other things note fulfilled loads prophecies the psalms isaiah and elsewhere hrs alone this his betrayal and crucifixion don have bible with this moment next time write will use don bother many the prophecies were fulfilled only the eyes xtian apologists who distort the meaning isaiah and other books
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism deletions apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes really don think you can imagine what like infinite first all infinity mathematical concept created humans explain certain things certain way don know actually applies reality don know anything the world infinite wouldn able comprehend what reality like for the programmer because that would require infinite memory whatever because reality continuous and based infinietely small units units you don know the universe actually continuous continuum another mathematical concept based infinity used explain things certain way because humans not know what infinite call something beyond numbers call endless but not know what have pretty good idea what infinity man made concept and like many man made concepts has evolved through time ancient greeks had different understanding can call allah infinitely powerful knowledgeable etc yet cannot imagine what allah actually because just cannot imagine what like infinite precicely don even know infinity applies reality sami aario can you see measure atom yet you can explode tut one sunlight comprised many atoms your stupid minds stupid stupid eros plan from outer space disclaimer don agree with eros
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes article fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes you are amazed that find difficult grasp when people justify death threats against rushdie with the claim was born muslim this empty rhetoric amazed your inability understand what saying not that you find difficult grasp when people justify death threats find amazing that your ability consider abstract questions isolation you seem believe the falsity principles the consequence their abuse you must hate physics you closer than you might imagine certainly despised living under the soviet regime when purported organize society according what they fondly imagined the objective conclusions marxist dialectic but don hate physics long some clown doesn start trying control life the assumption that are all interchangeable atoms rather than individual human beings jon
alt.atheism	little too satanic article mimsy umd edu mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes jeff west writes you claimed that people that took the time translate the bible would also take the time get right but here less than couple generations you been given ample proof agreed yourself above that the new versions tends out step with other modern translations what said was that people took time copy the text correctly translations present completely different issues why read the papers that the qumram texts had different versions some texts did misunderstand jon
alt.atheism	note bobby apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes insults about the atheistic genocide was totally unintentional under atheism anything can happen good bad including genocide and you know why this because you conveniently defined theist someone who can wrong and you defined people who wrong atheists the above statement circular not mention bigoting and such has value sami aario can you see measure atom yet you can explode tut one sunlight comprised many atoms your stupid minds stupid stupid eros plan from outer space disclaimer don agree with eros
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie anecdote about islam article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice wrote article nrl navy mil khan itd itd nrl navy mil umar khan writes stuff deleted what should demanding for khomeini and his ilk publicly come clean and show their proof that islamic law punishes apostacy with death that tolerates any similar form coversion freedom conscience all five schools law the best knowledge support the death sentence for apostasy when accompanied open persistent and aggravated hostility islam otherwise agree there legal support for punishment disbelief the qur makes clear that belief matter conscience public private disavowal islam conversion another faith not punishable there are some jurists who have gone against this trend and insisted that apostasy punishable even death but historically they are the exception cursing and insulting the prophets falls under the category shatim just borrowed book from the library khomeini fatwa etc lots stuff deleted and according the above analysis looks like khomeini offering reward for rushdie death fact constitutes criminal act according islamic law please see post under yet more rushdie islamic law
alt.atheism	slavery was why sex only allowed marriage article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes looking historical evidence such perfect utopian islamic states didn survive agree people are people and even you might start islamic revolution and create this perfect state takes some time and the internal corruption will destroy the ground rules again nothing perfect nothing perpetual even perfect isn going stay that way forever perpetual machines cannot exist thought that there were some laws mechanics thermodynamics stating that not atheist naren bala software evaluation engineer home work all standard disclaimers apply
alt.atheism	political atheists article apr news wesleyan edu ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu scott sauyet says are these his final words and how many here would find that appropriate just that finals got the way keep your fingers crossed why should keep fingers crossed doubt would anything martin schulte
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality article qkq horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes take wild guess and say freedom objectively valuable base this the assumption that everyone the world were deprived utterly their freedom that their every act was contrary their volition almost all would want complain therefore take that assert believe that freedom not very valuable when almost everyone can see that every bit absurd assert not raining rainy day take this candidate for objective value and necessary condition for objective morality that objective values such this exist own personal and highly subjective opinion that freedom good thing however when here people assert that the only true freedom following the words this and that messiah realise that people don even agree the meaning the word what does mean say that word represents objective value when word has objective meaning jon
alt.atheism	where are they now article innf senator bedfellow mit edu tcbruno athena mit edu tom bruno writes wow leave your terminal for few months and everyone you remember goes away how depressing actually there are few familiar faces out there counting bob and kent but don seem recognize anyone else has anyone heard from graham matthews recently has gotten his degree and sailed for greener pastures which brings the point posting how many people out there have been around alt atheism since done damnedest stay top the newsgroup but when you fall behind you really fall behind still not bad rec arts startrek used but digress has anyone tried keep with the deluge inquiring minds want know also does anyone keep track where the more infamous posters alt atheism end once they leave the newsgroup just curious guess cheers tom bruno one those people who always willl have unlimited stores unfounded respect for people who have been newsgroups mailing lists longer than have you certainly have sympathy tom have only been semi regularly posting toughto keep since this february but have been reading and following the threads since last august school newsreader was down for months and our incompetent computing services never bothered find new feed site wasn accepting outgoing postings don think anyone keeps track where other posters that old love and leave internet for you again best regards adam john cooper verily often have laughed the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had claws
alt.atheism	some thoughts article bissda saturn wwc edu bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes first want start right out and say that christian that okay what all the rest them who come here say makes sense one have any you read tony campollo book liar lunatic the real thing might little off the title but writes the book anyway was part effort destroy christianity the process became christian himself this isn the guy who was lawyer was could you give more info this guy never mind sure there will plenty responses this post and will appear there the arguements uses summing the book about whether jesus was god not know many you don believe but listen different perspective for all have something gain listening what others have say this true make sure true for all cases the book says that jesus was either liar was crazy why not both modern day koresh was actually who said was some reasons why wouldn liar are follows who would die for lie wouldn people able tell was liar why not die for lie you were poverty stricken and alunatic sounds perfecetly reasoable whether the societal dregs had for followers would able tell was liar not not necessarily even died for what believed this still makes him completely selfish like all what the difference people gathered around him and kept doing many gathered from hearing seeing someone who was had been healed call fool but believe did heal people there historical proof this see earlier threads besides least his name have been the cause enough deaths make for whatever healing gave niether was lunatic would more than entire nation drawn someone who was crazy sieg heil very doubtful fact rediculous for example anyone who drawn david koresh obviously fool logical people see this right away who david koresh curious therefore since wasn liar lunatic must have been the real thing how does this follow your definition lunatic and disproof thereof seem rather uhhh shaky some other things note fulfilled loads prophecies the psalms isaiah and elsewhere hrs alone this his betrayal and crucifixion don have bible with this moment next time write will use good idea don think most people understand what christian certainly not what see lot churches naturally those not true christians right rather think should way life and total sacrafice everything for god sake loved enough die and save should the same hey can god himself inspires turn our lives over him that tuff and most people don want real christian would something for the strong persevere but just like weight lifting guitar playing drums whatever takes time don rush one day christianity your whole life not going church once week helping poor people once while box everything into time units such work this time sports social life god above these boxes and should carried with into all these boxes that have created for ourselves someone else handle this don know worth sigh adam john cooper verily often have laughed the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had claws
alt.atheism	thoughts christians article apr nuscc nus cmtan iss nus tan chade meng dan writes sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes article cva uxa ecn bgu edu gsu uxa ecn bgu edu eric molas wrote christianity infectious cult the reasons flourishes are because gives people without hope driven purpose life safety blanked hide behind wow all have follow this christian moral standard and get eternal happiness agree that many cases primitive emotional feelings based haha you won laugh hell mentalities makes certain religions very attractive for certain personalities agree with both but would like make small point xtianity other dogmatic religions not only attract people without hope etc but also attract average people well believe that xtainity thru its escapist doctrines absolutist attitudes provides great psychological shelter from day day frustrations unhappiness fear uncertainty unknown etc this good point but think average people not take christianity much out fear escapism but quite simply way improve their social life get more involved with american culture they are kids immigrants for example since the overwhelming major religion the western world some form other simply the choice people take they are bored and want something new with their lives but not somethong too new too out the ordinary seems little weak but long doesn hurt anybody the buddha had something say about the attractiveness religions when driven fear man worships sacred mountains sacred stones and sacred trees however the buddha also said somebody finds peace any religion let him these are good quotes and agree with both them but let make sure alter the scond one that includes something like let him long not preventing others from finding their peace something like that course suppose someone were really peace there would need for inflicting evangelism personally feel that since religion have such poweful psychological effect should let theists but the problem that religions cause enormous harm non believers and humanity whole holy wars inquisitions inter religious hatred impedence science intellectual progress them attitudes etc etc need say more really don know what can about them any comments well sure thing will have live with them all our lives their popularity seems come and remember when first entered high school was atheist always had been and were about friends this time those have converted always christianity they were all also immigrants from taiwan sons immigrants hence earlier gross generalization christianity seems lot more popular people now than ever has before since been noticing maybe just perceptions that are chagning who knows for one perfectly willing live and let live with them long have some set abstract rights agreements how should treat each other have desire hurt them their notions for all the well put arguments this usenet never does any good argumentation does not really seem apply christians even some atheists must simply step the person takes naturally almost instinctively best regards adam john cooper verily often have laughed the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had claws the unenlightened one buddhism has the characteristics what would tan chade meng expected cosmic religion for the future singapore transcends personal god avoids dogmas and theology cmtan iss nus covers both the natural spiritual and based religious sense aspiring from the experience all things natural and spiritual meaningful unity einstein
alt.atheism	where are they now your posting provoked into checking save file for memorable posts the first captured was ken arromdee feb the subject atheist too that was article here your question was article which average about articles day for the last three years others have noted the current posting rate such that kill file depressing large among the posting saved the early days were articles from the following notables from loren sunlight llnl gov loren petrich from jchrist nazareth israel rel jesus christ nazareth from mrc tomobiki cho cac washington edu mark crispin from perry apollo com jim perry from lippard uavax ccit arizona edu james lippard from minsky media mit edu marvin minsky interesting bunch wonder where geoff arnold nfs architect sun select geoff arnold east sun com what they made the whole thing the great lie four guys two thousand years ago over wine the tear garden
alt.atheism	political atheists kcochran nyx edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes think that you are confusing the words objective and inherent and objective system simply one which outside observer who given the postulates the system could perfectly judge any situation action consistent with the system right not wrong you seem objecting because the goals the system are not inherent that you seem want define objective system one which the postulates themselves could determined some outside observer don think that this good definition objective system then you need learn english really gravity objective system anybody can learn what and perform experiments they will get the same results every other person who has performed those experiments gravity inherent system you don need any excess information other than observations determine anything possible objectively determine someone guilt innocence within non inherent system agree that morality not necessarily inherent unless you state that everything has evolutionary basis but this does not mean that cannot objective theory this natural morality not objective system evidenced your comments about lions and mine perhaps can objective but not inherent anyway noted before the practices related mating rituals etc among the animals are likely the only ones considered immoral under the previous definitions the natural law therefore some revisions are order since the class activities surrounding mating seem pose some general problems and fact the only way that the postulates could determined outsider would there were some sort higher truth like some sort god something but not think that god necessary for objective system while seems that you what are you trying say here seens that you are objecting the notion objective system because perhaps you think that would imply inherence which would necessitate some sort grand design have classified behavior most animals line with moral system certainly possible for animals commit acts which are outside their rules ethics but they don seem very often perhaps they are not intelligent enough immoral and perhaps because you have yet define moral system think have code ethics which basically defines undesired behaviors etc immoral behavior could unwanted unproductive destructive etc depending the goal the system that immoral what end keith
alt.atheism	political atheists kcochran nyx edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes natural morality may specifically thought code ethics that certain species has developed order survive wait are talking about ethics morals here the distinction important see this countless times the animal kingdom and such natural system the basis for our own system well huh well our moral system seems mimic the natural one number ways order for humans thrive seem need live groups here your problem seem need what wrong with the highlighted word don know what wrong possible for humans survive for long time the wild yes possible but difficult humans are social animal and that cause our success and order for group function effectively needs some sort ethical code this statement not correct isn why don you think and pointing out that species conduct serves propogate itself not trying give you your tautology but trying show that such are examples moral systems with goal propogation the species goal natural system morality anybody who lives monagamous relationship not moral after all order ensure propogation the species every man should impregnate many women possible noted earlier lack mating such abstinence homosexuality isn really destructive the system worst neutral for that matter herds horses only the dominate stallion mates when dies killed whatever the new dominate stallion the only one who mates these seems case your natural system morality trying shoot itself the figurative foot again the mating practices are something reexamined keith
alt.atheism	political atheists kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes but chimps are almost human does this mean that chimps have moral will well chimps must have some system they live social groups they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior keith
alt.atheism	political atheists sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes how you then explain sudden violent behavior human beings your theory would state that the more the human detached from primitive behavior the more violent and non moralistic the human becomes please correct understanding was wrong you have this bifurcation point where madman killing people from the roof campus could you explain how your theory explains such situation madmen are mad try explain the output from broken computer think not keith
alt.atheism	political atheists bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes show that the examples and others have provided are not counter examples your supposed inherent moral hypothesis you have successfully argue that domestication removes alters this morality think that domestication will change behavior large degree domesticated animals exhibit behaviors not found the wild don think that they can viewed good representatives the wild animal kingdom since they have been bred for thousands years produce certain behaviors etc keith
alt.atheism	political atheists mmwang adobe com michael wang writes well have typed the oed definitions you will note upon reading them punishment being inanimate object incapable showing mercy you can not say that merciless punishment cruel one sorry you must have missed the stuff parens when you read the definition where transf transferred sense and fig figurative things can cruel samples text from the first definition include because would not see thy cruell nailes plucke out his poore old eyes and the puniness man the centre cruel and frowning universe sure nails can cruel imagine nails your eyes would very painful but this does not imply that painless death cruel which what you are supposed trying show keith
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality sfnntrc wbo lruk andrew cmu edu david sacco dsav andrew cmu edu writes after tons mail could move this discussion alt religion yes mac there are many here among who feel that life but joke bob dylan you were happy every day your life you wouldn human being you game show host taken from the movie heathers lecture lek chur process which the notes the professor become the notes the student without passing through the minds either michael cobb and won raise taxes the middle university illinois class pay for programs champaign urbana bill clinton debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts still have billion dollar deficits
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality qjahh mrs horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes article pww spac rice edu pww spacsun rice edu peter walker writes article qie fkt horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer wrote objective morality morality built from objective values but where those objective values come from how can measure them what mediated thair interaction with the real world moralon scalar valuino field science the real world has its basis values not the other way round you would wish there such thing objective value then science can not objectively said more useful than kick the head simple theories with accurate predictions could not objectively said more useful than set tarot cards you like those conclusions don and how know they exist the first place one assumes objective reality one doesn know frank dwyer not hatching that odwyer sse from hens evelyn conlon how measure truth beauty goodness love friendship trust honesty etc things have basis objective fact then aren limited what know true can say that can examples instances reason but cannot measure reason that semantics mac michael cobb and won raise taxes the middle university illinois class pay for programs champaign urbana bill clinton debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts still have billion dollar deficits
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality kmr cwru edu kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes article horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes good logic better than bad good science better than bad definition great good okay bad horrible better worse good defined being better than bad how come with this setup this subjective enough people agreed could switch the order isn this defining one unknown thing another that good that which better than bad and bad that which worse than good circular mac only when the sun starts orbit the earth will accept the bible michael cobb and won raise taxes the middle university illinois class pay for programs champaign urbana bill clinton debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts still have billion dollar deficits
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality lsran inn exodus eng sun com emarsh hernes sun eng sun com eric marsh writes article hqxj jdg cso uiuc edu lis cso uiuc edu lis student writes hmmmm define objective morality well depends upon who you talk some say means you can have your hair over your ears and others say means stryper acceptable would say that general principles objective morality would listed one two places ten commandments sayings jesus the first depends whether you trust the bible the second depends both whether you think jesus god and whether you think have accurate copies the gong take moment and look what you just wrote first you defined objective morality and then you qualified this objective morality with subjective justifications you see the error this sorry you have just disqualified yourself but please play again mac eric huh please explain there problem because based morality something that could wrong gosh there heck lot stuff that believe that could wrong and that comes from sources that could wrong what you base your belief atheism your knowledge and reasoning couldn that wrong mac michael cobb and won raise taxes the middle university illinois class pay for programs champaign urbana bill clinton debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts still have billion dollar deficits
alt.atheism	islamic genocide pick former yugoslavia instead and say their problems are caused communism doesn really matter but guess religious leaders are calling for end that too can religiously motivated this despite the fact that the christians carve crosses dead muslims chests maybe they just want land maybe its something else they want maybe the cross carvings are just accidental don know just looks suspicious most likely the tragic situation bosnia combination ethnical and religious motives where religion just one attribute that separates the groups from each other but must agree that the sad saga bosnia terrible example case where religion not helping instead used weapon against other humans and sympathies are mostly the bosnian side looks like the serbs are the oppressors willing use even christianity weapon against their former friends cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	death penalty was political atheists the death penalty was conceived deterrent crime but the legal shenanigans that have been added automatic appeals lengthy court battles etc have relegated that purpose very small part what should hence the question instate the death penalty was meant and see that deters crime get rid entirely doubt the death penalty was supposed deterrent crime why doesn every crime carry death penalty that would effictive wouldn the death penalty punishment much like fine for speeding punishment anyway somebody with murder the mind doesn much care about the consequences think another problem that people dont think they will get caught wanted kill another person wouldn care what the penalty was didn think would get caught was strictly deterrent should have been more along the lines torture dave fuller dfuller portal videocart com
alt.atheism	thoughts christians cmtan iss nus tan chade meng dan writes personally feel that since religion have such poweful psychological effect should let theists but the problem that religions cause enormous harm non believers and humanity whole holy wars inquisitions inter religious hatred impedence science intellectual progress them attitudes etc etc need say more really don know what can about them any comments have always held that there should attempt change persons attitude lifestyle long makes them happy and does not tax anybody else this seems for atheists you don get atheist knocking your door stopping you the airport handing out literature social event theists seem think that thier form happy should work for others and try make sister born again and she was real thorn the side for entire family for several years she finally got the clue that she couldn help during that period she bought was atheist now xtian books for birthday and xmas several times our birthday cards would contain verses was problem told mom that was going send sister atheist piece reading material got don you dare mom wasn religious why did she insist that not send because our society has driven into that religion preach non religion should self contained what crock shit finally told sister that didn find her way life attractive have seen exactly effort from her trying convert since then sick religious types being pampered looked out for and worst all respected more than atheists there must end sight dave fuller dfuller portal videocart com
alt.atheism	bible quiz kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes would you mind mailing the questions with the pairs answers would love have them for the next time theist comes door like this too maybe you should post answer key after while nanci you know and are sure the author this quote please send email andrew cmu edu better coward for minute than dead for the rest your life
alt.atheism	why the bible one thing think interesting about alt athiesm the fact that without bible thumpers and their ilk this would much duller newsgroup almost needs the deluded masses write silly things for athiests tear apart well that little tidbit aside here what really wanted write about how can anyone believe such sorry document the bible you want religious aren there more plausable books out there seriously the bible was written multiple authors who repeatedly contradict each other one minute tells you kill your kid talks back and the next says not kill all think that xtians really want follow deity they should pick one that can consistent unlike the last one they invented for people who say jesus was the son god didn god say not ever put anyone else before him looks like you did just that didn god say not make any symbols idols what are crosses then don you think that you fact believe the bible that you are rather far off track was jesus illiterate why didn write anything anyone know honestly hope that people who believe the bible understand that just one the religious texts out there and that one the poorer quality ones boot the only reason xtianity escaped the middle east because certain roman who wine was poisoned with lead made all rome xtian after bad dream this posting keeps one person just one person from standing streetcorner and telling people they are going hell will happy only hatred and snap judgements can guide your robots through life clayton forester mad scientist
alt.atheism	political atheists kcochran nyx edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes how many contridictions you want see good question claim something general trend then disprove this guess you have show that was not general trend you going claim something then you prove think cold fusion well provided examples show that the trend was general and you others have provided some counterexamples mostly ones surrounding mating practices etc don think that these few cases are enough disprove the general trend natural morality and again the mating practices need reexamined try find immoral non mating related activities you excluding mating related activities from your natural morality but mating practices are special case have think about some more yes think that the natural system can objectively deduced with the goal species propogation mind but not equating the two you think that objective system isn necessarily the natural one are you are you not the man who wrote natural moral system the objective moral system that most animals follow indeed but while the natural system objective all objective systems are not the natural one the terms can not equated the natural system subset the objective ones now since homosexuality has been observed most animals including birds and dolphins are you going claim that most animals have the capacity being immoral don claim that homosexuality immoral isn harmful although isn helpful either the mating process and when you say that homosexuality observed the animal kingdom don you mean bisexuality because can determine what end should moral are you claiming group usually implies more than one entity this standard jargon read any textbook the forms are used throughout well saying that these goals are not inherent that why they must postulates because there not really way determine them otherwise although could argued that they arise from the natural goal but they are somewhat removed postulate assume posit that right the goals themselves aren inherent can create theory with postulate that the sun revolves around the earth that the moon actually made green cheese and the stars are the portions angels that intrudes into three dimensional reality you could but such would contradict observations can build mathematical proof with postulate that given the length one side triangle the length second side the triangle and the degree angle connecting them can determine the length the third side but postulate something that generally always found true don think your postulate would valid guess which one people are going more receptive order assume something about your system you have able show that your postulates work yes and think the goals survival and happiness work you think they don are they not good goals keith
alt.atheism	new member article hiew portal videocart com dfuller portal videocart com dave fuller writes hello just started reading this group today and think going large participant its daily postings liked the section the faq about constructing logical arguments well done atheist but not try turn other people into atheists only try figure why people believe the way they don much care they have different view than when comes down could wrong willing admit the possibility something religious followers dont seem have the capability happy aboard dave fuller dfuller portal videocart com welcome the official keeper the list nicknames that people are known alt atheism didn know had such list did you your have been awarded the nickname buckminster the next time you post article sign with your nickname like dave buckminster fuller thanks again jim humor means never having say you sorry copeland god dead and the actor plays his part sting his words fear will find their way place your heart history without the voice reason every faith its own curse will teach without freedom from the past things can only get worse nothing
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie article hkv epv blaze jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu ken arromdee writes article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes judaism for one maddi has confirmed this for one and again reiterate that one can easily leave the religion any time simply making public declaration one too lazy that then the religion cannot held responsible there are many islamic countries where publically renouncing islam can quite dangerous these countries might not according you necessarily practicing true islam but the danger still remains one cannot blame failure publically renounce islam laziness opposed desire stay alive and well course you planning pull rushdie then declaring one leaving the religion little concerned about compared one other plans rushdie case the one under discussion one can tragic that some islamic countries this there are however islamic countries whose constitutions contains statements that islamic law incorporated kuwait where one can freely make such statements without fear not mention that has already been pointed out that rushdie has said his books that not muslim and there have surely been enough readers his books provide the appropriate number witnesses this story has become tiresome the conditions are clear you care make your point clear then make chronology and show that had made public statements about leaving islam prior his writing tsv did make such statements then should have made that clear rather than trying rejoin islam talking about his personal feelings gregg
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article apr bradford newnham bradford leonard newnham writes gregg jaeger jaeger buphy edu wrote khomenei was jerk and were plenty british leaders what the qur the basis judgement khomenei was clearly heretic the standards the qur end story could you little more specific exactly why khomanei was heretic and jerk judged the koran have liking for the guy but far know has done nothing contrary the teachings the koran least told several iranian research students that share office with easy and convenient for you denounce him but have the feeling that your views are not clear cut and widely accepted you suggest have made this clear elsewhere but will again khomeini put price the head someone another country this makes him jerk well international outlaw khomeini advocates the view that there was series twelve islamic leaders the twelve imams who are free error sin this makes him heretic the qur muhammad chastised for error directly god the qur says that muhammad the greatest example proper islamic behavior thus muslim free from error usual there seems almost many islamic viewpoints there are muslims perhaps seems you but this hardly the case there widespread agreement about matters islam there certainly are many viewpoints issues which are not particularly islamic and themselves but this for any large group people under the same name all comes back the koran being imprecise its wording the qur not particularly imprecise wording though true that several interpretations are possible the interpretations many words however entire text the qur makes its meanings precise enough for intelligent people free from power lust come agreement about them gregg
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article apr bradford newnham bradford leonard newnham writes gregg jaeger jaeger buphy edu wrote well seemed slightly incongruous find the union jack flying city hall belfast may ask why there not because the british want there just one big expensive problem there because that what the majority the population want there some problem with that the majority those who can open their mouths public perhaps there seems quite alot incentive for the british have control like using the north channel and irish sea waste dump was appalled the dumping saw the harbor belfast understanding that quite alot radioactivity enters the water quite problem got its independence from britain and then stopped accepting the waste are you suggesting that british industry isn making profit off the situation well gregg
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article apr bradford newnham bradford leonard newnham writes gregg jaeger jaeger buphy edu wrote could you please explain what way the qur your eyes carries the excess baggage another era the qur opinion carries such baggage how about trying run modern economy without charging interest loans from what hear even fundamentalist iran having compromise this ideal which sort loans and what have you heard exactly gregg
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article jkj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes hope islamic bank something other than bcci which ripped off many small depositors among the muslim community the and elsewhere jon grow childish propagandist gregg
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie article apr bradford newnham bradford leonard newnham writes gregg jaeger jaeger buphy edu wrote and western countries isn legal concept all not the slightest bit pertinent the topic which british author living the united kingdom under the protection british law yes keep forgetting governments are superior entities religious organizations forgive the gun the higher law this degenerating zumder logic course governments are superior entities they are elected the people whereas religious leaders certainly are not perhaps not christianity but islam the choice religious leaders made the people much for your superiority argument those who the people trust make the law obviously represents the higher law that democracy democracy basic element islam learn that one ever notice that the called fundamentalists algeria who are being repressed the secular government won free and democratic elections gregg
alt.atheism	free moral agency article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes from bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine subject free moral agency date apr gmt article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy writes the old testement satan rarely mentioned all huh doesn the sda bible contain the book job this why there suffering the world are caught inthe crossfire and sometimes innocents well teh guilty get hurt that opinion and hope cleared few things seems like your omnipotent and omniscient god has got some splainin then did just create satan for shits and giggles bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea didn say never mentioned satan said rarely all please excuse for lack perfect memory omnipotence tammy soory sound cranky apoplogize now before anyone feelings get hurt
alt.atheism	note bobby article apr daffy wisc edu mccullou snake wisc edu mark mccullough writes from mccullou snake wisc edu mark mccullough subject note bobby date wed apr gmt article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes madhausc ckip netcom com madhaus netcom com maddi hausmann writes mark how much you really know about vegetarian diets the problem not some vitamins balancing proteins there also one vitamin that cannot obtained from non animal products and this only concern vegans who eat meat dairy eggs believe and the only problem supplements are available for vegans yes the does come from animal products you are ovo lacto vegetarian diet eat dairy and eggs this not issue didn see the original posting but yes know about vegetarian diets considering that several close friends are devout vegetarians and have take vitamin supplements was one the ones was thinking has been long time since read the article once saw talking about the special dietary needs vegetarians didn quote full numbers considering how nice this place can also come from whole grain rice understand some brands here australia and other places too sure get the the tablets from whole grain rice are you sure those aren enriched type know basically rice and soybeans get almost everything you need but hadn heard any rice having just thought contribute different issue from the norm you should have contributed the programming thread earlier fred rice darice yoyo monash edu one vegan vegetarian taht eats animal products eggs milk cheese etc after about years vegan diet you need start taking supplements because found only animals acutally our bodies make think but our bodies use our own after years lacto oveo vegetarians like myself still get through milk products and eggs don need supplements and anyone knows more please post nearly contridicting myself with the mish mash knowledge gleaned tammy
alt.atheism	morality was political atheists kcochran nyx edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes you are saying that isn possible for instinctive act moral one that order for act act morality the person must consider the immoral action but then disregard saying that order for act moral immoral somebody someone something must consider that implies intelligence not instinct who has consider the being that does the action still not sure know what you are trying say keith
alt.atheism	morality was political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes you are saying that isn possible for instinctive act moral one like think that many things are possible explain how instinctive acts can moral acts and happy listen for example were instinctive not murder that order for act act morality the person must consider the immoral action but then disregard weaker than that there must the possibility that the organism not just people are talking about can consider alternatives only intelligent beings can moral even the bahavior other beings mimics theirs and how much emphasis you place intelligence animals the same species could kill each other arbitarily but they don are you trying say that this isn act morality because most animals aren intelligent enough think like keith
alt.atheism	morality was political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes don expect the lion know not know anything the kind fact don have any evidence that lions ever consider such issues and that course why don think you can assign moral significance the instinctive behaviour lions what been saying that moral behavior likely the null behavior that doesn take much work moral but certainly does immoral some cases also said that morality remnant evolution our moral system based concepts well practiced the animal kingdom you are basically saying that you think moral undefinable term and that moral systems don exist can agree definition these terms then how can hope discuss them perfectly clear that saying that know what moral system but that can speak for other people but this doesn get anywhere your particular beliefs are irrelevant unless you can share them discuss them keith
alt.atheism	was cruel was political atheists sdoe nmsu edu stephen doe writes course some later time think that the death penalty cruel unusual will outlawed but the present most people don seem think this way this from the same fellow who speaks objective natural morality suppose that the majority decides slavery then longer immoral did not claim that our system was objective keith
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie article bcc ics uci edu bvickers ics uci edu brett vickers writes article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes well seeing you are not muslim the sort fatwa issued khomeini would not relevant you can understand your fear persecution and share even more than you being muslim however rushdie behavior was not completely excusable why should fatwa issued khomeini relevant anyone who doesn live iran issued khomeini shouldn relevant anyone but issued honest and learned scholar islam would relevant any muslim would contrary islamic law which all muslims are required respect who that decides whether rushdie behavior excusable anyone sufficiently well versed islamic law and capable reasoning you are talking about weak sense excuse depends what sense excuse you have mind and who cares you think inexcusable only someone who thinks opinion important obviously obviously you don care nor care that you don care gregg
alt.atheism	free moral agency and kent article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes from sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik subject free moral agency and kent date thu apr gmt article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy wrote ezekiel says your hart was filled with pride because all your beauty you corrupted your wisdom for the sake your splendor therefore have cast you down the the ground and exposed you helpless before the curious gaze kings for those you who are bible scholars you knowthat the verses refer the prince tyre this prophesy about and addressed the human prince verses refer the king tyre which term for satan tammy what the rationale connect the prince tyre with satan could you give more rational bible cites thanks afraid that this not the case your thinking model falls apart like house cards but let see cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net the time ezekiel was written israel was apostacy again and not mistaken tyre was about make war israel like said the prince tyre was the human ruler tyre was wicked man calling satan the king tyre ezekiel was saying that satan the real ruler over tyre don think interpretation neccessarily the orthodox christian one although most christian bible commentaries interpret the king tyre being reference satan haven read ezekiel throughly long time tammy
alt.atheism	free moral agency and jeff clark article dfc dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes from dbstu benedikt rosenau subject free moral agency and jeff clark date thu apr gmt article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy writes deletion you also said why did millions suffer for what adam and did seems pretty sick way going about creating universe gonna respond giving small theology lesson forgive used theology major first all believe that this planet involved cosmic struggle the great controversy betweed christ and satan borrowed book title god has consider the interests the entire universe when making decisions deletion universe has created the way can you tell why less tyrannic let one one own creatures what likes others your definitions your god has created satan with full knowledge what would happen including every choice satan can you explain what free will and how goes along with omniscience didn your god know everything that would happen even before created the world why concerned about being tyrant when noone would care everything was fine for them that the whole idea comes from the possibility abuse power something your god introduced according your description the way are you sure that you have read the faq especially the part about preaching benedikt don feel that preaching just trying answer people questions and talking about religion beliefs when comes what post don with the intent converting anyone don expect for the atheists this newsgroup take what say with grain salt they wish just state what beleve they ask how believeit and why and all that preaching then soory and get off the soapbox tammy
alt.atheism	pompous ass arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu ken arromdee writes look not the one that made those nazi comparisons other people compared what the religious people are doing now nazi germany they have said that started out with little things but one really knew about any these little things strangely enough and grew bigger things they said that the motto but one the little things you just contradicted yourself the motto one those little things that nobody has bothered mentiopning you huh the little things above were reference germany clearly people said that there were similar things germany but one could name any they said that these were things that everyone should know and that they weren going waste their time repeating them sounds like one knew either looked some books but avail that going pave the way for other intrusions course the motto hasn caused problems its year history then doubt going has caused problems you just ignore every instance when someone describes one you has caused problems again one has shown that things were better before the motto that they likely better after don think the motto initiates any sort harassment harassment will occur whether not the motto present keith
alt.atheism	pompous ass andrew newell tan psuvm psu edu writes think you should support your first claim that people will simply harass matter what doubt this true think some the theists will loss and that enough reason for because god trust motto the coins and the coins are representation the government christians are given ammunition here slander atheists unpatriotic should ban the ammunition why not get rid the guns and yes have heard this used conversation with christians sure they may fall back other things but this one they should not have available use worse than others the national anthem should changed too god bless america the list goes imagine the next year set coins were labeled with the motto god dead certainly such statement coins would offend almost every christian and tempted rub that motto the face christians when debunking their standard motto slinging gets boring then you better than the people you despise any statement printed item that represents the government endorsement the government the coin motto endorsement trusting god endorsement acknowledgement think gods are things that people are proud but don think the motto encourages belief don particularly feel like trusting god the government putting down with every coin prints for the motto legitimate would have read god gods godlessness trust would you approve such motto whether the motto was intended anti atheist not turns open invitation use anti atheist tool and removing the tool will solve the problem will increase the problem keith
alt.atheism	objective morality was political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes want know how this omniscient being going perform the feat definitely terming actions right wrong you were omniscient you know who exactly did what and with what purpose mind then with particular goal mind you sould able methodically judge whether not this action was accordance with the general goal don think you show the existence any objective moral system they exist but practice they are difficult perfectly emulate mean you understand the concept objective system right thought you were explaining certainly don understand what you are explaining objective system there are known goals then actions are judged either being compatible with these goals not simple the problem with most systems current practice that the goals differ that the goals each society are different note that objective system not necessarily inherent one the concept innocence dependent whether certain actions are right wrong and this depends the moral system but have objective system then someone can deemed innocent not quite easily omniscient person anyway think cleared the recursive definition murder because one complaining about don think solves anything speculate where would did have objective moral system the question still whether you can even say what one said many many times and for what worth don think you cleared anything concerning murder which part you have problem with what you mean harmed harm you have spend your existence metabolising food for another species most moral systems would considered only within species okay for enslave other animals right but not humans course ideally perhaps wouldn even have bother any other animals one the first point wrong enslave humans according persoanl moral system the second point vegetarian but can enslave the animals right but just not kill them are you vegetarian for health reasons are you vegetarian fail see how personal views are relevant anyway wrong eat animals your personal moral system course not seems perfectly valid kill members other species for food might nice though the other animals were not made suffer for instance cow field lives out its life just about the same way would the wild they seem happy enough however the veal youngsters aren treated very well how about objective moral system don know what the goal this particular system there inherent system how about natural moral system nope again seems okay kill other species for food keith
alt.atheism	who are judge bobby article kmr cwru edu kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes from kmr cwru edu keith ryan subject who are judge bobby date thu apr gmt mozumder writes tammy healy writes would like take the liberty quote from christian writer named ellen white hope that what she said will help you edit your remarks this group the future not set yourself standard not make your opinions your views duty your interpretations scripture criterion for others and your heart condemn them they not come your ideal thoughts fromthe mount blessing point point you have taken upon yourself judge others when only god the true judge only when the sun starts orbit the earth will accept the bible agree totally with you amen you stated better and less world than did tammy
alt.atheism	some thoughts article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes from bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine subject some thoughts keywords dan bissell date apr gmt article bissda saturn wwc edu bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes first want start right out and say that christian makes sense one have any you read tony campollo book liar lunatic the real thing might little off the title but writes the book anyway was part effort destroy christianity the process became christian himself this should good fun been while since the group has had such ripe opportunity gut gill and fillet some poor bastard well off get the popcorn bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea hope you not going flame him please give him the same coutesy you given tammy
alt.atheism	who are judge bobby article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes from snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder subject who are judge bobby date wed apr gmt article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy writes bobby would like take the liberty quote from christian writer named ellen white hope that what she said will help you edit your remarks this group the future not set yourself standard not make your opinions your views duty your interpretations scripture criterion for others and your heart condemn them they not come your ideal thoughts fromthe mount blessing hope quoting this doesn make the atheists gag but think ellen white put better than could tammy point peace bobby mozumder point that you set your views the only way believe saying that all eveil this world caused atheism ridiculous and counterproductive dialogue this newsgroups see your posts spirit condemnation the atheists this newsgroup bacause they don believe exactly you you here try convert the atheists here you failing miserably who wants position constantly defending themselves agaist insulting attacks like you seem like sorry you blind that you didn get the messgae the quote everyone else has seemed tammy
alt.atheism	death penalty was political atheists article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes article apr leland stanford edu rush leland stanford edu voelkerding writes worry about the one case more where innocent man convicted something horrible enough warrant the death penalty and hence put laws into place which make virtually impossible actually execute real criminals then the death penalty not serving its original purpose should either changed done away with don have numbers back this take the following accordingly you use off the cuff number innocent people sentenced die acceptable loss for the benefit capital punishment very very surprised the ratio were that low there have been approximately dozen known cases the execution the innocent the since the turn the century have that same period sentenced people death accounting for those cases that don know the truth seems reasonable assume that twice that many innocent people have fact been executed that would raise the number death sentences metered out since half million for your acceptance ratio hold rather doubt that the case the point course what acceptable loss seems probably not doing even that well should perhaps find better solution bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com any suggestions what better solution might realize the off hand nature the numbers used and can answer what acceptable loss rate however said another post despise the idea supporting criminals for life the economics the situation that concern most the money spent feeding clothing housing and taking care people who have demonstrated that they are unfit live society could number places all which and probably others would consider far more worthwhile and which would enrish the lives all americans give people jobs give the homeless shelter any number things clyde little girls like butterflies don need reason robert heinlein
alt.atheism	some thoughts bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes the book says that jesus was either liar was crazy modern day koresh was actually who said was was just convinced religious fantasies the time that was the messiah was just some rebel leader that organisation jews built into godhood for the purpose off throwing the yoke roman oppression some reasons why wouldn liar are follows who would die for lie are the moslem fanatics who strap bombs their backs and driving into jewish embassies dying for the truth hint they think they are were the nazi soldiers wwii dying for the truth people die for lies all the time wouldn people able tell was liar people was hitler liar how about napoleon mussolini ronald reagan spend millions dollars year trying find techniques detect lying the answer they wouldn able tell was liar only lied about some things gathered around him and kept doing many gathered from hearing seeing someone who was had been healed call fool but believe did heal people why you think healed people because the bible says but god doesn exist the other possibility then the bible not divinely inspired and one can use piece evidence was written unbiased observers niether was lunatic would more than entire nation drawn someone who was crazy very doubtful fact rediculous for example were hitler mussolini lunatics how about genghis khan jim jones there are thousands examples through history people being drawn lunatics anyone who drawn david koresh obviously fool logical people see this right away therefore since wasn liar lunatic must have been the real thing obviously cannot rule out liar lunatic not mention all the other possibilities not given this triad some other things note fulfilled loads prophecies the psalms isaiah and elsewhere hrs alone this his betrayal possibly self fulfilling prophecy was aware what should order fulfil these prophecies possibly selective diting behalf those keepers the holy bible for thousand years before the general public had access possibly also that the text written such riddles like nostradamus that anything that happens can twisted fit the words raving fictional prophecy and crucifixion don have bible with this moment next time write will use stuff about how hard christian deleted severely recommend you reconsider the reasons you are christian they are very unconvincing unbiased observer jeff
alt.atheism	political atheists article ajinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes but chimps are almost human does this mean that chimps have moral will well chimps must have some system they live social groups they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior the verb must was warned about that one back kindergarten why must they have such laws jon
alt.atheism	some thoughts bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes first want start right out and say that christian know shouldn get involved but bit deleted the book says that jesus was either liar was crazy modern day koresh was actually who said was some reasons why wouldn liar are follows who would die for lie wouldn people able tell was liar people gathered around him and kept doing many gathered from hearing seeing someone who was had been healed call fool but believe did heal people niether was lunatic would more than entire nation drawn someone who was crazy very doubtful fact rediculous for example anyone who drawn david koresh obviously fool logical people see this right away therefore since wasn liar lunatic must have been the real thing righto dan try this one with your cornflakes the book says that muhammad was either liar was crazy modern day mad mahdi was actually who said was some reasons why wouldn liar are follows who would die for lie wouldn people able tell was liar people gathered around him and kept doing many gathered from hearing seeing how his son law made the sun stand still call fool but believe did make the sun stand still niether was lunatic would more than entire nation drawn someone who was crazy very doubtful fact rediculous for example anyone who drawn the mad mahdi obviously fool logical people see this right away therefore since wasn liar lunatic must have been the real thing ron house usq house helios usq edu toowoomba australia
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes article jkj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes hope islamic bank something other than bcci which ripped off many small depositors among the muslim community the and elsewhere jon grow childish propagandist gregg really sorry having pointed out that practice things aren quite the wonderful utopia you folks seem claim them upsets you but exactly who being childish here open question bbci was example islamically owned and operated bank what will someone bet they weren real islamic owners and operators and yet actually turned out long running and quite ruthless operation steal money from small and often quite naive depositors and why did these naive depositors put their life savings into bcci rather than the nasty interest motivated western bank down the street could that they believed islamically owned and operated bank couldn possibly cheat them please don try con into thinking that will all work out right next time jon
alt.atheism	morality was political atheists article sninn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes you are saying that isn possible for instinctive act moral one like think that many things are possible explain how instinctive acts can moral acts and happy listen for example were instinctive not murder then not murdering would have moral significance since there would nothing voluntary about that order for act act morality the person must consider the immoral action but then disregard weaker than that there must the possibility that the organism not just people are talking about can consider alternatives only intelligent beings can moral even the bahavior other beings mimics theirs you are starting get the point mimicry not necessarily the same the action being imitated parrot saying pretty polly isn necessarily commenting the pulchritude polly and how much emphasis you place intelligence see above animals the same species could kill each other arbitarily but they don they and other posters have given you many examples exactly this but you seem have very short memory are you trying say that this isn act morality because most animals aren intelligent enough think like saying there must the possibility that the organism not just people are talking about can consider alternatives right there the posting you are replying jon
alt.atheism	moraltiy was political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes what act morally for particular reason then moral what morality instinctive most animals saying that morality instinctive animals attempt assume your conclusion which conclusion you conclusion correct err that the behaviour which instinctive animals natural moral system see are disagreeing the definition moral here earlier you said that must conscious act your definition instinctive behavior pattern could act morality you are trying apply human terms non humans think that even someone not conscious alternative this does not prevent his behavior from being moral you don think that morality behavior pattern what human morality moral action one that consistent with given pattern that enforce certain behavior moral you keep getting this backwards you are trying show that the behaviour pattern morality whether morality behavior pattern irrelevant since there can behavior pattern for example the motions the planets that most all people would not call morality try show but your definition can shown and morality can thought large class princples could defined terms many things the laws physics you wish however seems silly talk moral planet because obeys the laws phyics less silly talk about animals they have least some free will keith
alt.atheism	cruel was political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes this whole thread started because discussion about whether not the death penalty constituted cruel punishment which forbidden the constitution yes but they didn say what they meant cruel which why you have the supreme court and makes sense refer the constitution which quite silent the meaning the word cruel they spent quite bit time the wording the constitution they picked words whose meanings implied the intent have already looked the dictionary define the word isn this sufficient but were discussing the death penalty and that discussion resulted from the one about murder which resulted from intial discussion about objective morality this already three times removed from the morality discussion actually were discussing the mening the word cruel and the constitution says nothing about that but were discussing relation the death penalty and the constitution need not define each the words within anyone who doesn know what cruel can look the dictionary and did keith
alt.atheism	political atheists kcochran nyx edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes that just what you thought the theory meant while all humans are generally capable overpowering their instincts does not follow that those who this often are necessarily more intelligent why aren animals generally capable overpowering their instincts good question sure some biologist could answer better than but animals brains are just set differently animals can trained but they instincts serve them well there reason contradict them keith
alt.atheism	morality was political atheists article inn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes don expect the lion know not know anything the kind fact don have any evidence that lions ever consider such issues and that course why don think you can assign moral significance the instinctive behaviour lions what been saying that moral behavior likely the null behavior that doesn take much work moral but certainly does immoral some cases that the craziest thing ever heard are you serious doesn take much work moral also said that morality remnant evolution really and that why people discuss morality daily basis because kind evolutionary hangover like your little toe our moral system based concepts well practiced the animal kingdom this must some novel use the phrase based with which not sufficiently familiar what you mean based and what the significance for your argument you are basically saying that you think moral undefinable term and that moral systems don exist can agree definition these terms then how can hope discuss them perfectly clear that saying that know what moral system but that can speak for other people but this doesn get anywhere your particular beliefs are irrelevant unless you can share them discuss them well can what would you like know about particular moral beliefs you raise topic never considered quite happy invent moral belief out thin air jon
alt.atheism	pompous ass article jiinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu ken arromdee writes look not the one that made those nazi comparisons other people compared what the religious people are doing now nazi germany they have said that started out with little things but one really knew about any these little things strangely enough and grew bigger things they said that the motto but one the little things you just contradicted yourself the motto one those little things that nobody has bothered mentiopning you huh the little things above were reference germany clearly people said that there were similar things germany but one could name any they said that these were things that everyone should know and that they weren going waste their time repeating them sounds like one knew either looked some books but avail that not true gave you two examples one was the rather pevasive anti semitism german christianity well before hitler arrived the other was the system social ranks that were used imperail germany and austria distinguish jews from the rest the population neither these were very terrible themselves but both helped set psychology which the gradual disenfranchisement jews was made easier jon
alt.atheism	thoughts christians excerpts from netnews alt atheism apr thoughts christians dave fuller portal sick religious types being pampered looked out for and worst all respected more than atheists there must end sight think help got couple good atheists even some good steadfast agnostics some high political offices when was the last time had openly atheist president have ever don actually know these aren rhetorical questions how bout some supreme court justices one thing that really ticked off while ago was for news program local station the promo said something like who are these cults and why they prey the young ahem ever hear baptism birth that isn preying the young don know what used ack barf catholic and was even confirmed shortly thereafter decided was load mom who really insisted that continue church felt was her duty bring believer that was one the more presumptuous things heard life suggested talk the priest and she agreed the priest was amazingly cool about basically said that didn believe there was good forcing actually guess wasn amazingly cool about his response what you hope for indeed expect from human being pose just didn expect find absurd that religion exists yet can also see its usefulness people facing the fact that you just going worm food few decades and that there isn some cosmic purpose humanity and the universe can pretty difficult for some people having readily available pre digested solution this pretty attractive you either gullible enough willing suspend your reasoning abilities for the piece mind have had the stuff rammed down your throat for long you can remember religion general provides nice patch for some human weaknesses organized religion provides nice way keep population under control blech chris chris leger sophomore carnegie mellon computer engineering remember you don like what somebody saying you can always ignore them
alt.atheism	all mary fault you know just occurred today that this whole christian thing can blamed solely mary she married joseph she gets knocked what you think joe will finds she been getting around mary comes with this ridiculous story about god making her pregnant actually can all that ridiculous considering the number people that believe anyway she never tells anyone the truth and even tells poor little jesus that hot shit the son god everyone else tells him this too since they bought mary story what does mary actually turn out adultress and liar and the cause mankind greatest folly just recently minted two cents chris chris leger sophomore carnegie mellon computer engineering remember you don like what somebody saying you can always ignore them
alt.atheism	rawlins debunks creationism article apr rambo atlanta com wpr atlanta com bill rawlins wrote are talking about origins not merely science science cannot explain origins for person exclude anything but science from the issue origins say that there higher truth than science this false premise says who other than hear say god the way enjoy science you sure don understand truly wonder observing god creation macroevolution mixture percent science and percent religion guaranteed within three percent error bill hereby award you the golden shovel award for the biggist pile bullshit seen whils afraid there not bit religion macroevolution and you made rather grand statement that science can not explain origins large extent already has bill rawlins wpr atlanta com peter walker shall tell you what knowledge when dept space physics you know thing say that you know when and astronomy you not know thing admit you not know rice university this knowledge houston ung tzu
alt.atheism	some thoughts bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes first want start right out and say that christian well this alt atheism hope you arent here try convert anyone makes sense one many would disagree the book says that jesus was either liar was crazy modern day koresh was actually who said was well you shouldn give any particular book too much weight actually don think that any these statements correct more likely that most jesus fame was attributed him after his death those who had some strong motives some other things note fulfilled loads prophecies the psalms isaiah and elsewhere hrs alone what prophecy and what significant about them don think most people understand what christian think understand certainly not what see lot churches rather think should way life and total sacrafice everything for god sake well sell your computer and donate you life your religion now don waste any time keith
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality article qkq horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes take wild guess and say freedom objectively valuable base this the assumption that everyone the world were deprived utterly their freedom that their every act was contrary their volition almost all would want complain therefore take that assert believe that freedom not very valuable when almost everyone can see that every bit absurd assert not raining rainy day take this candidate for objective value and necessary condition for objective morality that objective values such this exist you have only shown that vast majority not all would agree this however there nothing against subjective majority any event must challenge your assertion know many societies heck many citizens willing trade freedom for security whatever promises that have been made can than broken john laws man without the honor keep his given word
alt.atheism	islamic authority over women snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes article apr wam umd edu west next wam umd edu writes and belief causes far more horrors crusades the emasculation and internment native americans the killing various tribes south america the inquisition the counter reformation and the wars that followed the salem witch trials the european witch hunts the holy wars the middle east the colonization destruction africa the wars between christianity and islam post crusade the genocide biblical the canaanites and philistines aryian invasion india the attempted genocide jews nazi germany the current missionary assaults tribes africa think all the horrors you mentioned are due lack people following religion lack people following religion also include fanatics people that don know what they are following how you know that you were right why are you trying shove down throat that religion causes horrors really covers yourself something false save yourself peace bobby mozumder just thought another one the bible definately not because lack religion the book esther which read the other day for other reasons describes the origin pur jewish celbration joy and peace the long and short the story that people were killed when people were tripping over all the peacefull solutions lying about you couldn swing sacred cow without slammin into nice peaceful solution course joshua and the jawbone ass spring mind agree with bobby this far religion used kill large numbers people usually not used the form manner that was originally intended for that doesn reduce the number deaths directly caused religion just minor observation the fact that there almost nothing pure the universe the very act honestly attempting find true meaning religious teaching has many times inspired hatred and led war many people have been led religious leaders more involved their own stomache contentsthan any absolute truth and have therefore been driven kill their leaders the point that there are many things involved religion that often lead war whether these things are part religion unpleasant side effect bobby would have the result people switching between religion and atheism spontaneously the results are the same religious groups have long been involved the majority the bloodiest parts man history atheists the other hand preen preen are typically not ideological social caste nor are they driven organize and spread their beliefs the overuse nazism and stalinism just show how true this two groups with very clear and specific ideologies using religious persecution further their means anyone who cannot see the obvious namely that these were groups founded for reasons entirely their own who used religious persecution not because any belief system but because made them more powerfull trying too hard basically bobby uses these examples because there are few wars that were not specifically fought over religion that does not have many choices well off key west where the only flames are heating the bottom little silver butter dishes ciao chris blask
alt.atheism	objective morality was political atheists article utinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes want know how this omniscient being going perform the feat definitely terming actions right wrong you were omniscient you know who exactly did what and with what purpose mind then with particular goal mind you sould able methodically judge whether not this action was accordance with the general goal but now you are contradicting yourself pretty massive way and don think you even noticed another part this thread you been telling that the goal natural morality what animals survive but suppose that your omniscient being told you that the long term survival humanity requires exterminate some other species either terrestrial alien does that make moral jon
alt.atheism	pompous ass article pinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider says andrew newell tan psuvm psu edu writes sure they may fall back other things but this one they should not have available use worse than others the national anthem should changed too god bless america the list goes worse maybe not but definately violation the rules the govt supposedly follows maybe the others should changed but not personally concerned about the anthem since don come across daily nearly unavoidable routines every christian and tempted rub that motto the face christians when debunking their standard motto slinging gets boring then you better than the people you despise don despise the people just their opinions meant when chatting with the ones who refuse listen any idea other than their own then just becomes exercise for amusement for the motto legitimate would have read god gods godlessness trust would you approve such motto not unless the only way get rid the current one was change such that
alt.atheism	moraltiy was political atheists article ekinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes what act morally for particular reason then moral what morality instinctive most animals saying that morality instinctive animals attempt assume your conclusion which conclusion you conclusion correct err that the behaviour which instinctive animals natural moral system see are disagreeing the definition moral here earlier you said that must conscious act your definition instinctive behavior pattern could act morality you are trying apply human terms non humans pardon trying apply human terms non humans think there must some confusion here the guy who saying that animal behaviour instinctive then does not have any moral sugnificance how does refusing apply human terms animals get turned into applying human terms think that even someone not conscious alternative this does not prevent his behavior from being moral sure you think this you say how about trying convince you don think that morality behavior pattern what human morality moral action one that consistent with given pattern that enforce certain behavior moral you keep getting this backwards you are trying show that the behaviour pattern morality whether morality behavior pattern irrelevant since there can behavior pattern for example the motions the planets that most all people would not call morality try show but your definition can shown offered four times think accept your definition you allow ascribe moral significence the orbital motion the planets and morality can thought large class princples could defined terms many things the laws physics you wish however seems silly talk moral planet because obeys the laws phyics less silly talk about animals they have least some free will the law silly and less silly what livesey finds intuitive silly but what schneider finds intuitive less silly now that devastating argument isn jon
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes article bcc ics uci edu bvickers ics uci edu brett vickers writes article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes well seeing you are not muslim the sort fatwa issued khomeini would not relevant you can understand your fear persecution and share even more than you being muslim however rushdie behavior was not completely excusable much considered some the called islam related dialogue here total waste time somehow can restrain myself this instance gregg try this come senses and accept the all knowing wisdom and power the quran and allah not only that but allah himself drops congratulate wise choice allah rolls few bones and get down then allah gets out the crisco bends over and invites take spin around the block wow realize that maybe allah looking for more commitment than ready for say man got some programming gotta call you thinking over renounce islam btw gregg allah said still thinks you jim
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie article bafa dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes yes but fortunately religions have been replaced systems that value human rights higher secular laws seem value criminal life more than the victims life islam places the rights society and every member above the rights the individual this what call true human rights the way you actually support the claim precedence islamic law case you what about the laws other religions muslim living non muslim land bound the laws the land live but not disregard islamic law still remains part life the laws land conflict with religion such extent that prevented from being allowed practise religion then must leave the land way islamic law does take precendence over secular law but are instructed follow the laws the land that live too islamic state one ruled khaliphate religions other than islam are allowed rule their own religious laws provided they don affect the genral population and don come into direct conflict with state laws dhimmis non muslim population are exempt from most islamic laws religion such fighting jihad giving zakat alms giving etc but are given the benefit these two acts such military protection and they are poor they will receive zakat not what has got with rushdie and has anyone reliable information hadn left islam according islamic law the burden proof him benedikt after the fatwa didn rushdie affirm his faith islam didn thru very public conversion islam binding himself islamic laws has publicly renounce his belief islam the burden him mas inc masud ahmed khan mas cadence com all opinions
alt.atheism	slavery was why sex only allowed marriage article apr bradford newnham bradford leonard newnham writes this all sounds nice everyone helping each other and always smiling and fluffy bunnies everywhere wake people are just not like that seems evident from history that society has succeeded when had rely upon the goodwill and unselfishness the people isn obvious from places like iran that even there are only few greedy people society then they are going attracted positions power sounds like recipe for disaster leonard mail newnham bradford leonard give you example this father recently bought business the business price was pounds and father approached the people the community for help raised pounds interest free loans from friends and relatives and muslims knew had cash and the rest got business loan after paying off the muslim lenders many them helped him with further loans help him clear the bank debt and save him from further intrest this example muslim community helping one another why did they help because their common identity muslims turn father has helped with people buying houses minimise the amount intrest they pay and some cases buy houses intrest free with the help those more fortunate the community the fact leonard does work without fluffy bunny sight ithat the beauty islam mas inc masud ahmed khan mas cadence com all opinions
alt.atheism	pompous ass andrew newell tan psuvm psu edu writes sure they may fall back other things but this one they should not have available use worse than others worse maybe not but definately violation the rules the govt supposedly follows for the motto legitimate would have read god gods godlessness trust would you approve such motto not unless the only way get rid the current one was change such that what wrong with this motto now you wouldn approve even that one beginning think that you just have something against mottos general what you think plurbis unum keith
alt.atheism	pompous ass livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes the little things above were reference germany clearly people said that there were similar things germany but one could name any that not true gave you two examples one was the rather pevasive anti semitism german christianity well before hitler arrived the other was the system social ranks that were used imperail germany and austria distinguish jews from the rest the population these don seem like little things least they are orders worse than the motto you think that the motto little thing that will lead worse things keith
alt.atheism	morality was political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes explain how instinctive acts can moral acts and happy listen for example were instinctive not murder then not murdering would have moral significance since there would nothing voluntary about see there you again saying that moral act only significant voluntary why you think this and anyway humans have the ability disregard some their instincts only intelligent beings can moral even the bahavior other beings mimics theirs you are starting get the point mimicry not necessarily the same the action being imitated parrot saying pretty polly isn necessarily commenting the pulchritude polly you are attaching too many things the term moral think let try this good that animals the same species don kill each other you think this right you think that animals are machines and that nothing they either right nor wrong animals the same species could kill each other arbitarily but they don they and other posters have given you many examples exactly this but you seem have very short memory those weren arbitrary killings they were slayings related some sort mating ritual whatnot are you trying say that this isn act morality because most animals aren intelligent enough think like saying there must the possibility that the organism not just people are talking about can consider alternatives right there the posting you are replying yes was but still don understand your distinctions what you mean consider can small child moral how about gorilla dolphin platypus where the line drawn does the being need self aware what you call the mechanism which seems prevent animals the same species from arbitrarily killing each other don you find the fact that they don all significant keith
alt.atheism	objective morality was political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes another part this thread you been telling that the goal natural morality what animals survive that right humans have gone somewhat beyond this though perhaps our goal one self actualization but suppose that your omniscient being told you that the long term survival humanity requires exterminate some other species either terrestrial alien now you are letting omniscient being give information this was not part the original premise does that make moral which type morality are you talking about natural sense not all immoral harm another species long doesn adversely affect your own guess keith
alt.atheism	new member jcopelan nyx edu the one and only writes welcome the official keeper the list nicknames that people are known alt atheism didn know had such list did you your have been awarded the nickname buckminster the next time you post article sign with your nickname like dave buckminster fuller thanks again jim humor means never having say you sorry copeland course the list has agree with the nickname laws laid down the gipu almost years ago you know the them that were written the iron tablets that melted once and had reinscribed since prophet the gipu decree that you should post the whole list nicknames for the frequent posters here nanci
alt.atheism	political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes well chimps must have some system they live social groups they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior why must they have such laws the quotation marks should enclose laws not must there were such rules even instinctive ones unwritten ones etc then surely some sort random chance would lead chimp society into chaos keith
alt.atheism	pompous ass article qlef inn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes the little things above were reference germany clearly people said that there were similar things germany but one could name any that not true gave you two examples one was the rather pevasive anti semitism german christianity well before hitler arrived the other was the system social ranks that were used imperail germany and austria distinguish jews from the rest the population these don seem like little things least they are orders worse than the motto you think that the motto little thing that will lead worse things you don think these are little things because with twenty twenty hindsight you know what they led jon
alt.atheism	objective morality was political atheists article qlf ginn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes another part this thread you been telling that the goal natural morality what animals survive that right humans have gone somewhat beyond this though perhaps our goal one self actualization humans have gone somewhat beyond what exactly one thread you telling that natural morality what animals survive and this thread you are claiming that omniscient being can definitely say what right and what wrong what does this omniscient being use for criterion the long term survival the human species what how does omniscient map into definitely being able assign right and wrong actions but suppose that your omniscient being told you that the long term survival humanity requires exterminate some other species either terrestrial alien now you are letting omniscient being give information this was not part the original premise well your original premises have habit changing over time perhaps you like review for and tell what the difference between omniscient being able assign right and wrong actions and telling the result does that make moral which type morality are you talking about natural sense not all immoral harm another species long doesn adversely affect your own guess talking about the morality introduced you which was going implemented this omniscient being that can definitely assign right and wrong actions you tell what type morality that jon
alt.atheism	slavery was why sex only allowed marriage article apr cadence com mas cadence com masud khan writes leonard give you example this father recently bought business the business price was pounds and father approached the people the community for help raised pounds interest free loans from friends and relatives and muslims knew had cash and the rest got business loan after paying off the muslim lenders many them helped him with further loans help him clear the bank debt and save him from further intrest this example muslim community helping one another why did they help because their common identity muslims turn father has helped with people buying houses minimise the amount intrest they pay and some cases buy houses intrest free with the help those more fortunate the community sorry wrong this how banks got started the first place sooner later your father and his pals will lend money someone who eventually goes broke and then they will realise that they havn been managing risk very well then they will ask themselves what that they need quantify risk and persuade borrowers not take greater loans than they can carry and since they don all want the worry doing the calculations and handling the money some them will specialise that then they reinvent interest but like good muslims they call something else the fact leonard does work without fluffy bunny sight ithat the beauty islam riiiight that why john major opened new government department couple months ago help promote minority business because they can all themselves lending one another cups sugar jon
alt.atheism	morality was political atheists article qlettinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes explain how instinctive acts can moral acts and happy listen for example were instinctive not murder then not murdering would have moral significance since there would nothing voluntary about see there you again saying that moral act only significant voluntary why you think this you force something morally responsible for and anyway humans have the ability disregard some their instincts well make your mind instinctive not murder not only intelligent beings can moral even the bahavior other beings mimics theirs you are starting get the point mimicry not necessarily the same the action being imitated parrot saying pretty polly isn necessarily commenting the pulchritude polly you are attaching too many things the term moral think let try this good that animals the same species don kill each other you think this right not even correct animals the same species kill one another you think that animals are machines and that nothing they either right nor wrong sigh wonder how many times have been round this loop think that instinctive bahaviour has moral significance quite prepared believe that higher animals such primates have the beginnings moral sense since they seem exhibit self awareness animals the same species could kill each other arbitarily but they don they and other posters have given you many examples exactly this but you seem have very short memory those weren arbitrary killings they were slayings related some sort mating ritual whatnot what are you trying say that some killing animals has moral significance and some does not this your natural morality are you trying say that this isn act morality because most animals aren intelligent enough think like saying there must the possibility that the organism not just people are talking about can consider alternatives right there the posting you are replying yes was but still don understand your distinctions what you mean consider can small child moral how about gorilla dolphin platypus where the line drawn does the being need self aware are you blind what you think that this sentence means there must the possibility that the organism not just people are talking about can consider alternatives what would that imply what you call the mechanism which seems prevent animals the same species from arbitrarily killing each other don you find the fact that they don all significant find the fact that they significant jon
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality article jxru news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes what you base your belief atheism your knowledge and reasoning couldn that wrong actually atheism based ignorance ignorance the existence any god don fall into the atheists don believe because their pride mistake bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes article jkj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes hope islamic bank something other than bcci which ripped off many small depositors among the muslim community the and elsewhere grow childish propagandist gosh gregg pretty good reading between the lines but you given precious little work with this refutation could you maybe flesh out just bit did miss the full grandeur content virtue blinding atheism bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	morality was political atheists article inn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes what been saying that moral behavior likely the null behavior smell sig material here bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	cruel was political atheists article mdinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes but were discussing relation the death penalty and the constitution need not define each the words within anyone who doesn know what cruel can look the dictionary and did with dictionary available they could gain first hand knowledge suffering through one your posts bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	pompous ass article jiinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes the little things above were reference germany clearly people said that there were similar things germany but one could name any they said that these were things that everyone should know and that they weren going waste their time repeating them sounds like one knew either looked some books but avail the anne frank exhibit makes your small little world take afternoon see bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	thoughts christians article ofnwyg voa andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu patrick leger writes ever hear baptism birth that isn preying the young don know what that praying the young preying the young comes later when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the priest really wears under that chasible bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	political atheists article qlfd inn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes well chimps must have some system they live social groups they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior why must they have such laws the quotation marks should enclose laws not must your highness and exactly why should the quotation marks enclose laws not must case you didn notice the function the must that wish ironicise there were such rules even instinctive ones unwritten ones etc then surely some sort random chance would lead chimp society into chaos perhaps the chimps that failed evolve cooperative behaviour died out and are left with the ones that did evolve such behaviour entirely chance are you going proclaim natural morality every time organism evolves cooperative behaviour what about the natural morality bee dance jon
alt.atheism	objective morality was political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes humans have gone somewhat beyond what exactly one thread you telling that natural morality what animals survive and this thread you are claiming that omniscient being can definitely say what right and what wrong what does this omniscient being use for criterion the long term survival the human species what well that the question isn the goals are probably not all that obvious can set few goals like happiness and liberty and the golden rule etc but these goals aren inherent they have defined before objective system possible how does omniscient map into definitely being able assign right and wrong actions not too difficult one you have goals mind and absolute knoweldge everyone intent etc now you are letting omniscient being give information this was not part the original premise well your original premises have habit changing over time perhaps you like review for and tell what the difference between omniscient being able assign right and wrong actions and telling the result omniscience fine long information not given away isn this the resolution the free will problem interactive omniscient being changes the situation which type morality are you talking about natural sense not all immoral harm another species long doesn adversely affect your own guess talking about the morality introduced you which was going implemented this omniscient being that can definitely assign right and wrong actions you tell what type morality that well was speaking about objective system general didn mention specific goal which would necessary determine the morality action keith
alt.atheism	islam caused believing was genocide caused theism article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes only saying that anything can happen under atheism being beleiver knowledgeable one religion only good can happen this becoming tiresome statement coming from you definition not assertion islam good belief islam good therefore being believer islam can produce only good because islam good blah blah blah that about circular gets and equally meaningless say that something produces only good because only good that produces nothing more than unapplied definition and all you application saying that true you really believe true that silly conversely you say off handedly that anything can happen under atheism again just offshoot believe and becomes true don believe and doesn like other religions aquainted with islam teaches exclusion and caste and suggests harsh penalties for behaviors that have logical call for punishment certain limits speech and sex for example this not good see much pain and suffering without any justification except for the waving the hand some inaccessible god the you toss around the word knowledgable bit carelessly for what knowledgeable believer except contradiction terms infer that you mean believer terms having faith and you need knowledge believe then faith has nothing with does jim halat
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie anecdote about islam article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes have precise about rejection god and his leaving islam one perfectly free muslim and doubt and question the existence god long one does not reject god sure that rushdie has now made his atheism clear front sufficient number proper witnesses the question regard the legal issue his status the time the crime was committed have say that have problem with any organization religious not where the idea that simple speech such this the basis for crime jim halat
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie anecdote about islam article ursa bear com halat pooh bears jim halat writes article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes have precise about rejection god and his leaving islam one perfectly free muslim and doubt and question the existence god long one does not reject god sure that rushdie has now made his atheism clear front sufficient number proper witnesses the question regard the legal issue his status the time the crime was committed also add that impossible actually tell when one rejects god therefore you choose punish only those who talk about jim halat
alt.atheism	silly question tianity article apr daffy wisc edu mccullou snake wisc edu mark mccullough writes sorry insult your homestate but coming from where wisconsin very backwards was never able understand that people actually held such bigoted and backwards views until came here have never been wisconsin though have been neighbor minnesota being child the middle atlantic found that there were few states the provences that stood out this youngster mind california texas and florida name the most obvious three however both minnesota and wisconsin stuck out solely the basis their politics both have always translated extremely liberal and progressive states and recent trip minnestoa last summer served support that state reputation guess that wisconsin probably the same least that was the impression the people minnesota left with about their neighbors the only question head about wisconsin though whether not there cause effect relationship between cheese and serial killers jim halat
alt.atheism	the nonexistance atheists date apr edt from kmagnacca eagle wesleyan edu article bskendigc jcwx jzn netcom com bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes quotes deleted really looks like these people have idea all what means atheist there are more bobby mozumder clones the world than thought well that explains some things posted soc religion islam with attached quote bobby the effect that all atheists are lying evil scum and asked was commonly held idea among muslims got response asking about the unknown guess you should have tried one the soc culture groups the middle east south asia area they are little more open than the islam channel think someone defined atheists polytheists cuz they say think the world created itself something like that each particle god which created the other gods the soc culture african also nice for some contrasting viewpoints the benevolence religion especially when sudan mentioned
alt.atheism	keith relativist article pigidinnsot gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes not you are thrown into cage with tiger and get mauled you blame the tiger aha admits moral relativist keith you start wafffling about how different for human maul someone thrown into cage speak you better start posting tome decent evidence retract your think there absolute morality blurb few weeks ago keith the desert brat john mcvey elc eltnc eng whyalla uni australia levels unisa edu darwin for replies mail whjjm whyalla unisa edu disclaimer unisa hates opinions doesn make rainbow any less beautiful that god name smack understand the refractive mechanisms that chance for some produce jim perry perry dsinc com alice chains
alt.atheism	some thoughts article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy writes hope you not going flame him please give him the same coutesy you given tammy person gives well balanced reasoned argument tammy then all are happy discuss with him makes astounding claims which are not backed with any evidence then must expected substantiate them the original author had said that everything was his own opinion and not supportable then people would have simply ignored him did not claimed many things and his logic was seriously flawed his argument was for christianity effort try convince atheists like myself believe him and his message for one will not take things read you told that pink fluffy elephants did the dance the sugar plum fairy the dark side jupiter then would demand evidence adda adda wainwright does dim atal llanw eczcaw mips nott mae sig werth
alt.atheism	objective values scientific accuracy was after years can say that christian morality article jzv dcs dcs tommy kelly wrote article qjahh mrs horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes science the real world has its basis values not the other way round you would wish you must using values mean something different from the way see used normally and you are certainly using science like that you equate the real world science the recognition patterns our perceptions the universe and the making qualitative and quantitative predictions concerning those perceptions science the process modeling the real world based commonly agreed interpretations our observations perceptions has nothing with values far can see values are well they are what value they are what would have rather than not have what would experience rather than not and values can also refer meaning for example computer science the value true and false science based commonly agreed values interpretation observations although science can result reinterpretation these values objective values are set values which the proposer believes are applicable everyone the values underlaying science are not objective since they have never been fully agreed and the change with time the values newtonian physic are certainly different those quantum mechanics steve lang slang sling slink slick slack shack shank thank think thick
alt.atheism	victims various good fight article tekig pen tek com naren tekig pen tek com naren bala writes list killings the name religion iran iraq war civil war sudan riots india pakistan massacares bangladesh inquistions america million crusades massacre jews wwii million massacre other inferior races wwii million communist purges million socialism more less religion catholics protestants quite few imagine recent goings bombay iodia area disease introduced brazilian oher tribes million naren the desert brat john mcvey elc eltnc eng whyalla uni australia levels unisa edu darwin for replies mail whjjm whyalla unisa edu disclaimer unisa hates opinions doesn make rainbow any less beautiful that god name smack understand the refractive mechanisms that chance for some produce jim perry perry dsinc com alice chains
alt.atheism	keith schneider stealth poster article innpit gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes but really are you threatened the motto the people that use every time somone writes something and says merely describing the norm infact inforcing that norm upon those programmed not think for themselves the motto dangerous itself tells the world that every true american god fearing and puts down those who not fear gods doesn need anyone make dangerous does good job itself just existing your currency keith the desert brat john mcvey elc eltnc eng whyalla uni australia levels unisa edu darwin for replies mail whjjm whyalla unisa edu disclaimer unisa hates opinions doesn make rainbow any less beautiful that god name smack understand the refractive mechanisms that chance for some produce jim perry perry dsinc com alice chains
alt.atheism	all mary fault andrew cmu edu patrick leger writes you know just occurred today that this whole christian thing can blamed solely mary she married joseph she gets knocked what you think joe will finds she been getting around mary comes with this ridiculous story about god making her pregnant nice attempt chris verrry close you missed the conspiracy step joseph knew who knocked her couldn let known that somebody else got mary prego that wouldn well for his popularity the local circles what happened that she was feeling guilty was feeling embarrassed and they decided improve both their images what could have otherwise been the downfall for both clever indeed come think have gained new respect for the couple maybe joseph and mary should receive all the praise being paid jesus dave buckminster fuller how that one keeper the nicknames
alt.atheism	origins the bible adda wainwright writes stated that thousands bibles were discovered certain point time which were syllable perfect this therefore meant that there must have been one copy certain time the time quoted acquaintance was approximately years after the death jesus this far know complete nonsense the codification the bible have now came very much later wingate the peace god peace but strife closed the sod mangoe umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace god
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie apologize for the long delay getting response this posted been working reduced hours the past couple weeks because had son born the day after umar article was posted btw did respond within couple days but turns out that coincidental news software rearrangement caused postings from this site silently disappear rather than going out into the world this revision that original response article nrl navy mil khan itd itd nrl navy mil umar khan writes article finnm dsi dsinc com perry dsinc com jim perry writes only functional illiterate with absolutely conception the nature the novel could think such thing this was response the claim that rushdie made false statements about the life mohammed with the disclaimer fiction know but where the line between fact and fiction stand this distinction between fiction and false statements however not for his writing the satanic verses but for what people have accepted propagandistic version what contained that book have yet find one single muslim who has convinced that they have read the book some have initially claimed have done but none has shown more knowledge the book than superficial newsweek story might impart and all have made factual misstatements about events the book you keep saying things like this then you accuse people like making hominem arguments repeat have said previous postings have read tsv from cover cover had not seen that claim might have been less sweeping you have made what consider factual misstatements about events the book which have raised the past the islam clearer view thread well the root the yet more rushdie islamic law thread statement was not that you had not read the book but that you had not convinced that you inter alia had said before you want defend your position then produce evidence and respond the evidence have posted far you have not course statement was not directly aimed you but broadly number muslim posters who have repeated propaganda about the book indicating that they haven read and narrowly gregg jaeger who subsequently admitted that hadn fact read the book vindicating skepticism least that one case far the only things have regarding your own case are the statements you made concerning the book the clearer view posting which have challenged not interpretation but statements fact for instance rushdie depicts the women the most respected family all islam whores and your claim which had not seen before this that you have indeed read cover cover willing try resolve this down disagreement critical interpretation but you have support your end responding criticism have doubt the ability particular muslim through this book with highlighter finding passages take personal offense but you have upheld the view that tsv intended attack islam and upon muslims this view must defended more than mere assertion you want anyone take seriously trying very hard amicable and rational and appreciate but welcome the club defending honest opinion that this book should not construed calculated otherwise insulting attack islam and the parallel opinion that most the criticism the book have seen baseless propaganda have supported statements and critical interpretationa with context quotes from the book and rushdie essays which more than correspondents have done course you are more than welcome jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics chris faehl writes many atheists not mock the concept god they are shocked that many theists have fallen such low level that they actually believe god you accuse all atheists being part conspiracy again without evidence rule condescending the population large theists will not win many people your faith anytime soon only ruins your credibility fallacy atheism faith hear the faq beckoning once again wonderful rule deleted you correct you didn say anything about conspiracy correction hard atheism faith rule don mix apples with oranges how can you say that the extermination the mongols was worse than stalin khan conquered people unsympathetic his cause that was atrocious but stalin killed millions his own people who loved and worshipped him and his atheist state how can anyone worse than that will not explain this you again stalin did nothing the name atheism whethe was was not atheist irrelevant get grip man the stalin example was brought not indictment atheism but merely another example how people will kill others under any name that fit for the occasion rule you rely evidence state waiting opposed relying bunch black ink some crumbling old paper atheism has prove nothing you anyone else the burden dogmatic religious bullshit provide their evidence which might you referring and how long are you going wait hard atheism has nothing prove then how does justify that god does not exist know there the faq etc but guess what those justifications were compelling why aren people flocking hard atheism they not and they won for one will discourage people from hard atheism pointing out those very sources reliable statements hard atheism second what makes you think defending any given religion merely recognizing hard atheism for what faith and yes referring every reader the post where the evidence that the poster stated that relied upon yes though not theist can say safely that definition many theists are not arrogant since they boast about something outside themselves namely god gods principle hard see how theists are necessarily arrogant because they say such and such absolutely unalterably true because dogma says true not prepared issue blanket statements indicting all theists arrogance you are wont with atheists bzzt virtue your innocent little pronoun they you just issued blanket statement least will apologize qualifying original statement with hard atheist place atheist would you call john the baptist arrogant who boasted one greater than that what many christians today how that itself arrogant not worthy only seriously misinformed with your sophisticated put down they the theists your serious misinformation shines through bake timmons iii there nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful life than some good memory alyosha brothers karamazov dostoevsky
alt.atheism	islam and scientific predictions was genocide caused atheism dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes and god almighty who created the night and the day and the sun and the earth all the celetial bodies swim along each its rounded course holy quran hmm this agrees with the ptolemic system the earth the centre with the planets orbitting round copernicus and gallileo were wrong after all you haven read very carefully you look again you will see that doesn say anything about what circling what anyway they are not moving circles oops sorry words not the words the qur nor there any evidence that everything goes around rounded course general sense wishy washy statements are not scientific note that the celestial bodies the above verse interpolation which why brackets the translator incorrect imho interpretation here maurice bucaille translation studied arabic for his research into the qur and science this verse god the one who created the night the day the sun and the moon each travelling orbit with its own motion qur the positive aspect this verse noted maurice bucaille that while geocentrism was the commonly accepted notion the time and for long time afterwards there notion geocentrism this verse anywhere the qur fred rice darice yoyo monash edu
alt.atheism	islam and scientific predictions was genocide caused atheism cindy apr solan solan unit cindy solan solan unit cynthia kandolf writes various quotes deleted the interest saving little bit bandwidth but will copy the koran quote and god almighty who created the night and the day and the sun and the earth all the celetial bodies swim along each its rounded course holy quran has been pointed out this quote makes claim about what orbits what the idea that something orbited something had been held true for many years before the koran was written the fact that says something orbits something hardly surprising insight concern with the word rounded there are two interpretations this word means circle this wrong although many believed true the time the koran was written other words not describing our neighborhood the universe really exists but was thought the time this has implications which hope are obvious everyone means rounded shape which could include elipses the geometrical form which most nearly describes the orbits the planets this also not great insight look the shapes you see nature very few them even approach square rectangle those are human created shapes everything nature rounded some degree even the flat earthers don try claim earth rectangle children who draw imaginary animals seldom give them rectangular bodies seem instinctively recognize that nature produces rounded shapes hence the assumption that the orbits the planets would round hardly takes divine inspiration good remember that every translation some extent interpretation you point out below one must really back the original arabic regarding the verses relevant nature prefer use maurice bucaille translations his book the bible the qur and science for general his translations are more literal maurice bucaille translates the portion the verse you are addressing each one travelling with orbit its own motion also note that the celestial bodies the first translation quoted you above the translator interpolation not existent the original arabic which why included brackets perhaps someone who can read the original arabic can eliminate one these interpretations any rate neither one them exactly impressive you right what the verses contain isn all that remarkable however bucaille surgeon that how thinks significant that the above verse contains geocentric ideas even though geocentrism was all the rage until the century and this goes for the rest the qur well which has about verses regarding nature think remember reading once fred rice darice yoyo monash edu
alt.atheism	societally acceptable behavior article qgm news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes merely question for the basis morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior disagree with these what society thinks should irrelevant what the individual decides all that important who society think this fairly obvious how they define what acceptable generally what they feel right which the most idiotic policy can think how keep from whatever legal what moral position thinking for ourselves mac michael cobb and won raise taxes the middle university illinois class pay for programs champaign urbana bill clinton debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts still have billion dollar deficits
alt.atheism	origins the bible article apr nott eczcaw mips nott wainwright writes have been having argument about the origins the bible lately with theist acquaintance stated that thousands bibles were discovered certain point time which were syllable perfect this therefore meant that there must have been one copy certain time the time quoted acquaintace was approximately years after the death jesus adda most bible scholars agree that there was one copy each book certain time the time when the author wrote unfortunately like all works from this time period and earlier all that exists today are copies cutting all the crap out the way god wrote could anyone answer the following how old the oldest surviving copy the new testament there are parts books scraps really that date from around the mid second century there are some complete books letters etc from the middle third century the first complete collection the new testament dates from the early century throughout this period are writings various early church fathers leaders who quoted various scriptures their writings there any truth acquaintance statements you mean that someone discovered thousands bibles which were all perfect copies dating from the last part the century you mean that there are thousands early manuscripts within the dates given above but not letter perfect and that the most probable text can reconstructed from these documents and that the earliest original autographs now lost probably were written starting sometime shortly after then yes from who where did the bible originate from the original authors call them matthew mark luke john peter paul james and one other not identified how long piece string long you make adda regards jim
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics james hogan writes timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes jim hogan quips summary jim stuff jim afraid you missed the point thus think you have admit that atheists have lot more their sleeve than you might have suspected nah will encourage people learn about atheism see how little atheists have their sleeves whatever might have suspected actually quite meager you want send them your address learn less about your faith faith yeah you expect people read the faq etc and actually accept hard atheism you need little leap faith jimmy your logic runs out steam fine but why these people shoot themselves the foot and mock the idea god hope you understand now yes jim understand now thank you for providing some healthy sarcasm that would have dispelled any sympathies would have had for your faith bake real glad you detected the sarcasm angle but really bummin that won getting any your sympathy still your inclined have sympathy for somebody faith you might try one the religion newsgroups just careful over there though make believe whispering your ear here they all delusional jim sorry can pity you jim and sorry that you have these feelings denial about the faith you need get well just pretend that will all end happily ever after anyway maybe you start new newsgroup alt atheist hard you won bummin much good job jim bye bake more slim jim deleted bye bake bye bye bye bye big jim don forget your flintstone chewables bake timmons iii there nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful life than some good memory alyosha brothers karamazov dostoevsky
alt.atheism	studies book mormon don know much about mormons and want know about serious independent studies about the book mormon don buy the official story about the gold original taken heaven but haven read the book mormon myself have much work learning biblical hebrew will appreciate any comment about the results study style vocabulary place names internal consistency and for example there evidence for one writer multiple writers there are some mention about events places historical persons later discovered archeologist yours collen andres grino brandt casilla santiago agrino enkidu mic chile hay mas realidad que realidad razon profeta
alt.atheism	gulf war and peace niks article apr bmerh bnr dgraham bmers bnr douglas graham writes wait minute you said never play chamberlain since the playing chamberlain far east timor concerned wouldn that lead you think that your argument irrelevant and had nothing with the gulf war actually rather like your idea perhaps the rest the world should have bombed maybe missiled washington when the invaded nicaragua grenada panama vietnam mexico hawaii any number other places wait minute doug know you are better informed than that the has never invaded nicaragua far know liberated grenada from the cubans protect citizens there and prevent the completion strategic air strip panama invaded true twice this century vietnam were invited the government vietnam guess invaded saudi arabia during the gulf war mexico have invaded mexico times once this century but there were missiles for anyone shoot over here that time hawaii liberated from spain you mean the word invaded some sort military action where cross someone border you are right out but normally invaded carries connotation attacking autonomous nation some nation invades the virgin islands would they invading the virgin islands the from this point view your score falls out mexico panama what peace nik that somebody who doesn masturbate over guns ammo what supposed bad peace nik someone who believes peace all costs other words person who would have supported giving hitler not only austria and czechoslakia but poland too could have averted the war and one who would allow hitler wipe all all jews slavs and political dissidents areas controlled long left the rest alone supposed bad peace nik you ask well depends what your values are you value life over liberty peace over freedom then guess not but liberty and freedom mean more you than life itself you rather die fighting for liberty than live under tyrant heel then yes bad peace nik the problem with most peace niks they consider those who are not like them bad and unconscionable would not have any argument problem with peace nik they held their ideals and stayed out all conflicts issues especially those dealing with the national defense but they are not willing allow legitimately hold different point view they militate and many times resort violence all the name peace what rank hypocrisy all stop warmongers who are willing stand and defend our freedoms against tyrants and who realize that requires strong national defense time get off the soapbox now doug graham dgraham bnr opinions are own regards jim
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics nancyo fraser sfu nancy patricia connor writes timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes rule don mix apples with oranges how can you say that the extermination the mongols was worse than stalin khan conquered people unsympathetic his cause that was atrocious but stalin killed millions his own people who loved and worshipped him and his atheist state how can anyone worse than that you right and david koresh claimed christian yup can hear the millions cheering for right now josef stalin eat your heart out bake timmons iii there nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful life than some good memory alyosha brothers karamazov dostoevsky
alt.atheism	has risen our lord and savior david keresh has risen has been seen alive spread the word sole intention was learning fly
alt.atheism	idle questions for fellow atheists acooper mac macalstr edu wrote wonder how many atheists out there care speculate the face the world atheists were the majority rather than the minority group the population been thinking about this every now and then since cut ties with christianity surprising note that large majority people least finland seem apatheists even though the population are members the lutheran church finland religious people are actually minority could possible that many people believe god just case seems people not want seek the truth they fall prey pascal wager other poor arguments small minority those who believe reads the bible regularly the majority doesn care believes but doesn know what how people don usually allow their beliefs change their lifestyle they only want keep the virtual gate open christian would say that they are not born the spirit but this does not disturb them religion not something think about afraid society with true atheist majority impossible dream religions have strong appeal people nevertheless promise life after death something humans eagerly listen coupled with threats eternal torture and the idea that our morality under constant scrutiny some cosmic cop too many people take the poison with smile just pretend swallow and unconsciously hope god wouldn notice also how many atheists out there would actually take the stance and accor higher value their way thinking over the theistic way thinking the typical selfish argument would that both lines thinking evolved from the same inherent motivation one not intrinsically different from the other qualitatively but then again measuring stick must drawn somewhere and cannot assign value system beliefs its core than the only other alternative apply its periphery how expresses its own selfishness logic and reason are valued then would claim that atheistic thinking higher value than the theistic exposition theists make unnecessary assumptions they believe yet see good reasons believe gods take leap faith all revelation would however why value logic and reasoning this questions bears some resemblance long disputed problem science why mathematics works strong deep structuralists like atkins have proposed that perhaps after all everything mathematics usefulness any criterion petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics the truth pihatie finou oulu physics the rule oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu chemistry the game
alt.atheism	societally acceptable behavior article asv news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes qvabj horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes article qgm news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes making wrong assumption for the basis morals where they come from the question came from the idea that heard that morals come from whatever societally mandated only one aspect morality societal morality necessarily very crude and broad brush stuff which attempts deal with what necessary keep that society going and often little over enthusiastic about doing individual morality different thing often includes societal mores society trouble but stronger for example some people are vegetarian though eating meat may perfectly legal merely question for the basis morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior who society depends the society doesn help the point irrelevant often the answer are but society those who make the rules that different question society who should make the rules that yet another don claim have the answers either but don think very well ireland and like some things about the system least principle how they define what acceptable depends again this comes from certain question see above well ideally they don but they must they should consensus imo how keep from whatever legal what moral position adopting default position that people moral decisions are none society business how can put people jail how can condemn other societies because sometimes that necessary the hard trick recognise when and equally importantly when isn and only interfering when truly necessary why would necessary what right have interfere imo isn often that interference jail and force various kinds and degrees both necessary and effective where you derive the right interfere difficult question sort liar paradox force necessary for freedom one possible justification that people who wish take away freedom shouldn object their own freedom taken away the paradox doesn arise don actively wish take way anyone freedom the introduction permissible interference causes the problem that can either too much too little but most people seem agree that some level interference necessary they see the need for justice system how can even define that term only consensus guess thus you get situation where the law often allows what honour forbids which come believe should admit don understand that statement what mean that while thus and such may legal thus and such may also seen immoral the law lets you but you don let yourself eating meat for example frank dwyer not hatching that odwyer sse from hens evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	islamic genocide psilink com robert knowles psilink com writes date apr gmt from frank dwyer frank uucp article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes just borrowing your post rice psilink com robert knowles psilink com writes are you sure that democracy the driving force behind the massacres east timor certainly odd that many the worlds massacres occur along religious lines independently any claims democratic form government are ireland and northern ireland considered democracies would you attribute their problems democracy even though they are democracies which motivates them more religion democracy rice was pointing out fallacy the assertion that islam evil because some those who claim follow are evil not asserting that democracy causes massacres read that right was and was pointing out that his use indonesians killing the east timorese result democracy was bit weak because democracy not much motivation for doing much anything indonesia from what remember east timor was former portguese territory which was forcibly annexed indonesia last heard over indonesians have died trying keep east timor part indonesia being former portuguese colony there strong catholic influence east timor recall seems bit odd that yet again have another war being fought between people who just happen have different religions purely coincidental guess but then the real motivation get the vote out and make democracy work indonesia pointed out the secession movement aceh which has also been brutally dealt with the past the indonesian government the harshly with all secessionist movements the evidence appears that the indonesian government has dealt very harshly with all secession movements know that the head the indonesian armed forces for very long time was benny murdani christian indonesia has been heavy handed east timor for long time even when murdani was head the armed forces the people who make the indonesian government are general motivated national interests not religious ones fred rice darice yoyo monash edu
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics robert knowles writes there are few atheists with time their hands first apologize didn bother reading the faq first and fired imprecise flame that was inexcusable how about the nickname bake flamethrower timmons sure but robert koresh fetesh sic knowles seems good too you weren the koresh compound around noon today any chance were you remember koresh dried for your sins and pass that beef jerky umm umm though wasn there least can rely you now keep posted what what doing have you any other fetishes besides those for beef jerky and david koresh bake timmons iii there nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful life than some good memory alyosha brothers karamazov dostoevsky
alt.atheism	christian morality article prca news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb says vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes article jts news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes wrong god free any time correct mistake that continues not while supposedly proclaiming his undying love for eternal soul speaks volumes what are the volumes that speaks besides the fact that leaves your choices you leaves the choices but gives better reason believe than odd story his alleged son getting killed for and little new the past few thousand years leaving with only the texts passed down through centuries meddling with the meaning and even wording most this passing down and interpretation course coming from those who have vested interest not allowing the possibility that might not the ultimate truth what about maybe talking directly big god right ought able make time for the creations loves much least enough give each few words direct conversation what too busy get around all maybe few unquestionably miraculous works here and there speaks volumes upon volumes that never gotten chance meet the guy and chat with him
alt.atheism	death penalty gulf war article rusnews mantis mathew mathew mantis writes jbrown batman bmd trw com writes article rusnews mantis mathew mathew mantis writes yes fortunately have right thinking folks like your good self power and was therefore deemed acceptable slaughter tens even hundreds thousands iraqis order liberate oil hkuwait won the war hurrah hurrah the number civilian iraqi deaths were way over exaggerated and exploited for anti war emotionalism the liberal news media the facts are that less iraqis died the gulf war than did civilians any other war comparable size this century let analyze this claim little how the size war defined number participants geographical area number countries involved number casualties size armies duration numbers casualties both absolute and percentage those involved geographical area and numbers countries too are all measures size this case say the relevant statistic would the number combatants total troops compared total casualties from among the total civilian population the affected geographical area which other comparable wars are talking about vietnam and korea might make good comparisons which liberal news media are talking about western news general but particular the american mass media cbs nbc abc etc the general tone the news during the whole war was one those poor poor iraqis along with look how precisely this cruise missile blew this building bits this was due mostly the short duration coupled with precise surgical bombing techniques which were technically possible only recently suspect that medical advances may have something with too agree how about all the innocent people who died blanket bombing don hear you bemoaning them perhaps because the topic hasn cropped you want opinion think that the blanket bombing german cities the end world war two was the most appalling act wholesale slaughter this country has committed centuries bomber harris was hero mine perhaps and maybe the atomic bomb was mistake too but that easy say from our enlightened viewpoint here the right back then was all out war and germany and japan had squashed after all million more british had already died hundreds thousands french couple hundread thousand americans and millions russians not mention few million jews poles and other people slavic descent german concentration camps all things considered the fire bombings and the atomic bomb were essential and therefore justified bringing the war quick end avoid even greater allied losses for one don regret war never exact science but with smart bombs becoming more exact with smaller percentage civilian casualties sometimes mistakes are made targets are misidentified innocents die that war the way really entrenched political rulers operating their own selfish interests without regard for the lives other people that the way war really sure and the people who suffer because them all the more reason depose these entrenched political rulers operating their own selfish interests you mean that this applies the allies well why all the fuss about kuwait and not east timor bosnia even tibet iraq bad why were still selling them stuff couple weeks before started bombing make claim effort justify the misguided foreign policy the west before the war evident that the west especially america misjudged hussein drastically but once hussein invaded kuwait and threatened militarily corner significant portion the world oil supply had stopped sure the war could have been prevented judicious and concerted effort the part the west before hussein invaded kuwait but still hussein who responsible for his decision invade and once did strong response from the west was required mathew your sarcasm noted but you are completely off base here you come off sounding like complete peace nik idiot although feel sure that was not your intent what your intent sound like loving christian well you aren doing very good job well not very loving allow hussein hitler gobble nearby countries and keep them allow them continue with mass slaughter certain peoples under their dominion have say yes stopping hussein was the most loving thing for the most people involved once set his mind military conquest the iraqi war was wrong sure that appeasement would have worked better than war just like did who even mentioned appeasement and what makes you think the situation even remotely analogous world war two mentioned hadn intervened allowing hussein keep kuwait then would have been appeasement precisely the lessons the world learned that motivated the western alliance war letting hitler take austria and czechoslavkia did not stop from happening and letting hussein keep kuwait would not have stopped eventual gulf war protect saudi arabia guess shouldn have fought either just think all those innocent german civilians killed dresden and hamburg yes germans are human too you know sure what was truly unfortunate was that they followed hitler his grandiose quest for thousand year reich the consequences stemmed from that tyrants like hussein have stopped his kind don understand diplomacy they only understand the point gun only regret that bush wimped out and didn have the military roll into baghdad now hussein still power and the iraqi people sacrifice not mention the americans who died was for naught look forward hearing your incisive comments about east timor and tibet what should say about them anything particular and for poor poor rodney king did you ever stop and think why the jury the first trial brought back verdict not guilty yes amongst the things thought were hmm there awful lot white people that jury was the policemen trial not rodney king and under american law they deserved jury their peers there had been black officers involved sure their would have been black jurors too this point allegedly racial motivations really shallow those who have been foaming the mouth for the blood those policemen certainly have looked further than the video tape but the jury looked all the evidence evidence which you and have not seen when see bunch policemen beating someone who lying defenceless the ground rather hard imagine what this other evidence might have been hard imagine when has argument from incredulity gained acceptance from the revered author constructing logical argument can expect another revision soon just kidding there some wonderful evidence why seemingly being kept secret why not tell everyone what then everyone could say yes you right king deserved good beating and could all live happily ever after have admit that wonder this too but neither the prosecution nor the defense talking one cannot conclude either way due the silence the principals law this country intended protect the rights the accused whether they criminals cops one not found guilty there reasonable doubt one guilt and only the jury position assess the evidence and render verdict fine but still finding hard imagine what the reasonable doubt was this case mean the cops certainly seem beating someone who lying defenceless the ground what your explanation mass hallucination orbital mind control lasers faked video footage tell certainly seemed that there was excessive force involved and frankly the original not guilty verdict baffled too but then learned that the prosecution the first case did not try convict charge excessive force simple assault which they probably would have won they tried get conviction charge aggravated assault with intent inflict serious bodily harm charge which news commentators said was akin attempted murder under california law based what the prosecution was asking for evident that the first jury decided that the officers were not guilty note not not guilty doing wrong but not guilty aggravated assault with the intent inflicting serious bodily harm the seeds the prosecutions defeat were their own overconfidence obtaining verdict such that they went for the most extreme charge they could the facts the news commentators presented them are true then feel the not guilty verdict was reasonable one mathew thou shalt not kill unless thou hast pretty good reason for killing which case thou shalt kill and also kill anyone who gets the way unfortunately cannot helped jim brown bible for loving christians thanks mathew like the quote pretty funny actually monty python fan you know kind seems that vein course oversimplifying any moral argument can make seem contradictory but then you know that already regards jim loving christian
alt.atheism	free moral agency article pxqs darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner says dean kaflowitz decay cbnewsj att com wrote now what interested the original notion you were discussing moral free agency that how can god punish person for not believing him when that person only following his her nature and not possible for that person deny what his her reason tells him her which that there god think you letting atheist mythology confuse you the issue webster myth traditional legendary story belief whose truth accepted uncritically how does that qualify indeed almost oxymoronic rather amusing instance found that most atheists hold almost atheist views accepted uncritically especially the few that are legend many are trying explain basic truths myths but they don meet the other criterions also divine justice according the most fundamental doctrines christianity when the first man sinned was that time the you accuse him referencing mythology then you procede launch your own xtian mythology this time meeting all the requirements myth salvation the idea punishment based the proposition that everyone knows instinctively that god exists their creator and but not everyone knows that god exists you have fallacy there nothing terribly difficult all this and well known any reasonably biblically literate christian the only controversy and that makes true holding with the bible rules out controversy read the faq you read you missed something read not bad suggestion for anyone read just before this with those who pretend not know what being said and what means when atheists claim that they not know god exists and don know what wants they contradict the bible which clearly says that everyone knows the authority the bible its claim should repeat what wrote above for the sake getting across you may trust the bible but your trusting doesn make any more credible the bible says that everyone knows that clearly reason doubt the bible because not everyone knows your alleged god alleged existance refuted while the species wide condemnation justified those that claim that there evidence for the existence god that his will unknown must deliberately ignore the bible the ignorance itself excuse they don have ignore the bible the bible far from universally accepted the bible not proof god only proof that some people have thought that there was god does prove even that they might have been writing series fiction short stories the case dionetics assuming the writers believed the only thing could possibly prove that they believed and that ignoring the problem whether not all the interpretations and biblical philosophers were correct there are people who have truly never heard the bible again read the faq freedom you are free ignore god the same way you are free ignore gravity and the consequences are inevitable and well known both cases that atheist can accept the evidence means only bzzt wrong answer gravity directly there doesn stop exerting direct and rationally undeniable influence you ignore god the other hand doesn generally show the supermarket except the tabloids god doesn exert rationally undeniable influence gravity obvious gods aren secondly human reason very comforatble with the concept god much that itself intrinsic our nature human reason always comes back the question god every generation and human reason hasn always come back the existance god has usually come back the existance god other words doesn generally come back the xtian god comes back whether there any god and much oriental philosophic history generally doesn pop the idea god much the question what natural forces are and which ones are out there from world wide view human nature just makes wonder how the universe came and what force are currently control natural tendancy believe god only exists religious wishful thinking said all this make the point that christianity eminently reasonable that divine justice just and human nature much different than what atheists think whether you agree not xtianity more reasonable than most other religions and reasonableness certainly doesn merit eminence divine justice well only seems just those who already believe the divinity first not all atheists believe the same things about human nature second whether most atheists are correct not you certainly are not correct human nature you are the least basing your views completely eurocentric approach try looking the outside world well when you attempt sum all humanity andrew
alt.atheism	genocide caused theism evidence article qibo horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes the absence some convincing evidence that theist fanatics are more dangerous than atheist fanatics continue wary fanatics any stripe think that the agnostic fanatics are the most dangerous the lot fair point actually mentioned theists and atheists but left out agnostics mea culpa wonder the light that you are probably theist who tries pass agnostic still remember your post about your daughter singing chrismas carols and your feelings well the way would you show marginal honesty and answer the many questions you left open when you ceased respond last time benedikt
alt.atheism	islamic genocide article horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes deletion few people can imagine dying for capitalism few more can imagine dying for democracy but lot more will die for their lord and savior jesus christ who died the cross for their sins motivation pure and simple got any cites for this nonsense how many people will die for mom patriotism freedom money their kids fast cars and swimming pools night with kim basinger mel gibson and which these things are evil read history book fred and tell why many religions command commit genocide when has got nothing with religion why many religions say that not living the standards the religion worse than dieing coincidence assume ist part the absolute morality you describe often theism strongly correlated with irrational belief absolutes irrational belief absolutes strongly correlated with fanatism benedikt
alt.atheism	where are they now article pepper east sun com geoff east sun com geoff arnold sun bos coast near the top writes your posting provoked into checking save file for memorable posts the first captured was ken arromdee feb the subject atheist too that was article here your question was article which average about articles day for the last three years others have noted the current posting rate such that kill file depressing large among the posting saved the early days were articles from the following notables hey might interesting read some these posts especially from ones who still regularly posts alt atheism from loren sunlight llnl gov loren petrich from jchrist nazareth israel rel jesus christ nazareth from mrc tomobiki cho cac washington edu mark crispin from perry apollo com jim perry from lippard uavax ccit arizona edu james lippard from minsky media mit edu marvin minsky interesting bunch wonder where hee hee hee ain going say whatever promises that have been made can than broken john laws man without the honor keep his given word
alt.atheism	cruel was political atheists article mdinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes this whole thread started because discussion about whether not the death penalty constituted cruel punishment which forbidden the constitution yes but they didn say what they meant cruel which why you have the supreme court and makes sense refer the constitution which quite silent the meaning the word cruel they spent quite bit time the wording the constitution they picked words whose meanings implied the intent have already looked the dictionary define the word isn this sufficient only need ask the question what did the founding fathers consider cruel and unusual punishment hanging hanging there slowing being strangled would very painful both physically and psychologicall imagine firing squad note not clean way die back those days etc all would considered cruel under your definition all were allowed under the constitution the founding fathers whatever promises that have been made can than broken john laws man without the honor keep his given word
alt.atheism	political atheists article ajinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes well chimps must have some system they live social groups they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior why must whatever promises that have been made can than broken john laws man without the honor keep his given word
alt.atheism	some thoughts article bissda saturn wwc edu bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes the arguements uses summing the book about whether jesus was god not know many you don believe but listen different perspective for all have something gain listening what others have say read the faq first watch the list some weeks and come back then and read some other books the matter order broaden your view first benedikt
alt.atheism	who says the apostles were tortured article qiu innpq srvr engin umich edu ingles engin umich edu ray ingles writes evidence for the resurrection often claimed that the disciples were tortured death for their beliefs and still did not renounce their claim that jesus had come back from the dead now skimmed acts and such and found reference this happening stephen but others where does this apparently very widely held belief come from there any evidence outside the bible there any evidence the bible sure haven found any early authors and legends the most important sources can found the martyriologia the catholic church makes the grimms look like exact science benedikt
alt.atheism	political atheists article qlfd inn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes well chimps must have some system they live social groups they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior why must they have such laws the quotation marks should enclose laws not must there were such rules even instinctive ones unwritten ones etc then surely some sort random chance would lead chimp society into chaos the system refered moral system you havn shown any reason that chimps must have moral system except you would like redefine everything whatever promises that have been made can than broken john laws man without the honor keep his given word
alt.atheism	where are they now article pepper east sun com geoff east sun com writes your posting provoked into checking save file for memorable posts the first captured was ken arromdee feb the subject atheist too that was article here your question was article which average about articles day for the last three years others have noted the current posting rate such that kill file depressing large among the posting saved the early days were articles from the following notables from loren sunlight llnl gov loren petrich from jchrist nazareth israel rel jesus christ nazareth from mrc tomobiki cho cac washington edu mark crispin from perry apollo com jim perry from lippard uavax ccit arizona edu james lippard from minsky media mit edu marvin minsky interesting bunch wonder where didn you hear his address has changed can reached the following address dkoresh branch davidian compound waco think was last seen posting alt messianic jim god dead and the actor plays his part sting his words fear will find their way place your heart history without the voice reason every faith its own curse will teach without freedom from the past things can only get worse nothing
alt.atheism	free moral agency are you saying that their was physical adam and eve and that all humans are direct decendents only these two human beings then who were cain and able wives couldn their sisters because didn have daughters were they non humans genesis and the days adam after begat seth were eight hundred years and begat sons and daughters felicitations chris stuart
alt.atheism	death penalty gulf war long article rusnews mantis mathew mathew mantis writes jbrown batman bmd trw com writes article rusnews mantis mathew mathew mantis writes which liberal news media are talking about western news general but particular the american mass media cbs nbc abc etc the general tone the news during the whole war was one those poor poor iraqis along with look how precisely this cruise missile blew this building bits most odd over here there was very little about the suffering the iraqi civilians until towards the end the war and then was confined the few remaining quality newspapers true first the news media seemed entranced all the new gizmos the military was using not mention the taped video transmissions from the missiles they zeroed their targets but later and especially after the bunker full civilians was hit they changed their tone seemed that they didn have the stomach for the reality war that innocent people really die and are maimed warfare like they were only pro gulf war long was nice and clean smart missiles dropping military hqs but not when pictures dead dying and maimed civilians started cropping what naive hypocrites how about all the innocent people who died blanket bombing don hear you bemoaning them discussion about blanket bombing and bombs deleted all things considered the fire bombings and the atomic bomb were essential and therefore justified bringing the war quick end avoid even greater allied losses should have said here militarily justified seems from your comments below that you understood this meaning morally justified apologize what about the evidence that america knew japan was about surrender after hiroshima but before nagasaki that another lie peddled the liberal media conspiracy have often wondered about this always thought that the first bomb should have been dropped japan island fortress truk good inpenatrable military target the second bomb could been held back for use industrial center need but digress yes have heard that found evidence after the war btw that japan was seriously considering surrender after the first bomb unfortunately the military junta won out over the moderates and rejected the ulimatum therefore the second bomb was dropped most unfortunate imo for one don regret nuke jap for jesus don regret the fact that sometimes military decisions have made which affect the lives innocent people but regret the circumstances which make those decisions necessary and regret the suffering caused those decisions why all the fuss about kuwait and not east timor bosnia even tibet iraq bad why were still selling them stuff couple weeks before started bombing make claim effort justify the misguided foreign policy the west before the war evident that the west especially america misjudged hussein drastically but once hussein invaded kuwait and threatened militarily corner significant portion the world oil supply had stopped see can overlook his using chemical weapons thousands people but threatens your right drive huge gas guzzling car well the man gotta actually was the fact that both situations existed that prompted and allied action some back water country took over some other back water country probably wouldn intervene not that don care but can the world policman coup had occured kuwait instead invasion then still wouldn have acted because there would not have been the imminent danger perceived saudi arabia but the combination the two unprovoked invasion genocidal tyrant and the potential danger the west oil interests caused take action moved paragraph from here later hadn intervened allowing hussein keep kuwait then would have been appeasement right but did you ever hear anyone advocate such course action are you just setting strawman not setting strawman all you want argue against the war then the only logical alternative was allow hussein keep kuwait diplomatic alternatives including sanctions were ineffective guess shouldn have fought either just think all those innocent german civilians killed dresden and hamburg yes germans are human too you know sure what was truly unfortunate was that they followed hitler his grandiose quest for thousand year reich the consequences stemmed from that translation they were asking for well sense yes they probably had idea what end hitler would lead their nation but what about those who didn support hitler dreams conquest not they democratically voted for all his policies the nsdap got the elections and that was the last chance the german people got vote the matter they suffered along with the rest why does this bother you much the world full evil and circumstances are not perfect many innocents suffer due the wrongful actions others regretable but that the way there are perfect solutions look forward hearing your incisive comments about east timor and tibet what should say about them anything particular the people east timor are still being killed dictatorship that invaded their country hell even western journalists have been killed all this was happening before the gulf war why didn send the bombers east timor why aren sending the bombers now probably because not the saviors the world can police each and every country that decides self destruct invade another nor are strategic position get relief tibet east timor some other places here that paragraph moved what your intent sound like loving christian well you aren doing very good job well not very loving allow hussein hitler gobble nearby countries and keep them allow them continue with mass slaughter certain peoples under their dominion have say yes stopping hussein was the most loving thing for the most people involved once set his mind military conquest the chinese government has policy mandatory abortion and sterilization tibetans tibetan people are rounded tortured and executed amnesty international recently reported that torture still widespread china why aren stopping them fact why are actively sucking them trading freely with them tell how could stop them and support for one not agree with the present policy sucking them you put agree that deplorable and for poor poor rodney king did you ever stop and think why the jury the first trial brought back verdict not guilty yes amongst the things thought were hmm there awful lot white people that jury was the policemen trial not rodney king erm surely irrelevant who trial juries are supposed represent cross section the population are they are they supposed reflect the population the locale where the trial held normally this where the crime committed unless one party the other can convince the judge change venue order not expert california law even law but seems that this the way the system set you can criticize the system but let not have unfounded allegations racial prejudice thrown around and under american law they deserved jury their peers you are saying that black people are not the peers white people not all the point that the fact that there were blacks the first jury and that rodney king black totally irrelevant this point allegedly racial motivations really shallow this idea people only being tried before jury people just like them really stupid should the nuremburg trials have had jury entirely made nazis germans perhaps peers doesn mean those who the same thing like having murderers judge murderers means having people from the same station life presumably because they are better position understand the defendent motivation those who have been foaming the mouth for the blood those policemen certainly have looked further than the video tape but the jury looked all the evidence evidence which you and have not seen when see bunch policemen beating someone who lying defenceless the ground rather hard imagine what this other evidence might have been hard imagine when has argument from incredulity gained acceptance from the revered author constructing logical argument not talking about logical argument talking about court law the faq points out some fallacious arguments are not viewed fallacies court law granted however you are using this reasoning part your logical argument this discussion this not court law the facts the news commentators presented them are true then feel the not guilty verdict was reasonable one were you not talking earlier about the bias the liberal media conspiracy the media not totally monolithic even though there prevailing liberal bias programs such the macneil lehrer news hour try give balanced and fair reporting the news there are even conservative sources out there you know where look hurrah for rush btw never used the word conspiracy don accept without far more evidence theories that there some all pervading liberal conspiracy attempting take over all news sources thou shalt not kill unless thou hast pretty good reason for killing which case thou shalt kill and also kill anyone who gets the way unfortunately cannot helped jim brown bible for loving christians thanks mathew like the quote pretty funny actually monty python fan you know kind seems that vein course oversimplifying any moral argument can make seem contradictory but then you know that already only serious atheist arguing against killing innocent people you supposed christian are arguing that kill innocent people long you get some guilty ones well hardly didn say that good thing kill innocent people the end just unfortunately don live perfect world and there are perfect solutions one going resist tyranny then innocent people both sides are going suffer and die didn say unfortunate but sometimes necessary moral relativist arguing that saturation bombing german cities the end world war was far can see evil and unnecessary act would agree that was evil the sense that caused much pain and suffering not sure that was unnecessary you say that conclusion can only arrived evaluating all the factors involved and perhaps was unnecessary let say now know that doesn mean that those who had make the decision bomb didn see being necessary rarely can one have full known the consequences action before making decision the time may have seemed necessary enough ahead with but don assume that feel the bombing was morally justified don just don condemn those who had make difficult decision under difficult circumstances you having criticised moral relativism the past are now arguing that position judge the morality allied actions the end the war you certainly are not such position you are moral relativist absolutist position judge but defer judgment you are arguing that the actions need assessed the particular context the time and that they might have been moral then but not moral now wrong they were neither moral then nor now they seemed necessary those making the decisions bring quick end the war simply refuse condemn them for their decision where your christian love where your absolute morality how quick you are discard them when suits you ivan stang would say jesus would puke one day will stand before jesus and give account every word and action even this discourse this forum understand the full ramifications that and prepared don believe that you can make the same claim mathew and btw the reason brought the blanket bombing germany was because you were bemoaning the iraqi civilian casualties being deplorable yet blanket bombing was instituted because bombing wasn accurate enough hit industrial military targets decisive way any other method that time but the gulf war precision bombing was the norm the point was why make big stink about the relatively few civilian casualties that resulted spite precision bombing when many more civilians proportionately and quantitatively died under the blanket bombing even with precision bombing mistakes happen and some civilians suffer but less civilians suffered this war than any other iany other history many iraqi civilians went about their lives with minimal interference from the allied air raids the stories hundreds thousands iraqi civilian dead just plain bunk yes bunk the lost servicemen over four years and the majority them were directly involved fighting but are expected swallow that hundreds thousands civilian iraqis died war lasting about months and with the allies using the most precise bombs ever created that what hogwash hundreds thousands iraqi civilians died was due actions hussein took his own people not due the allied bombing regards jim
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics maddi hausmann chirps timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes first all you seem reasonable guy why not try more honest and include sentence afterwards that honest just ended like that swear that nice hmmmm recognize the warning signs alternating polite and rude coming into newsgroup with huge chip shoulder calls people names and then makes nice whirrr click whirrr you forgot the third equality whirrr click whirrr see below whirr click whirr frank dwyer might also contained that shell pop stack determine whirr click whirr killfile keith allen schneider frank closet theist dwyer maddi the mad sound geek hausmann whirrr click whirrr bake timmons iii there nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful life than some good memory alyosha brothers karamazov dostoevsky
alt.atheism	islam and scientific predictions was genocide caused atheism article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes the positive aspect this verse noted maurice bucaille that while geocentrism was the commonly accepted notion the time and for long time afterwards there notion geocentrism this verse anywhere the qur there notion heliocentric even galacticentric either sole intention was learning fly
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and anarchists mccullou whipple wisc edu writes turn went back and reread your post all you did attack atheism and say that agnosticism wasn funny atheism nowhere does that imply that you are agnostic weak atheist most people who post such inflammatory remarks are theists was reasonable assumption sorry you right did not clearly state rule condescending the population large theists will not win many people your faith anytime soon only ruins your credibility how being condescending the population large stating something that happened true for long time couldn believe that people actually believed this god idea was alien concept not trying win people faith you put have faith religion was non issue when had the attitude above because never even occurred believe atheist default guess you could say the most common form condescending the rational versus irrational attitude once one has accepted the assumption that there god and then consider other faiths irrational simply because their assumption contradict your assumption then would say there lack consistency here now know you get about faith the positive belief that god does not exist were closed logical argument why many rational people have problems with that logic but you probably like seem soft atheist sorry for the flamage the line about atheists haveing something their sleeves what seemed imply that sorry been reading too much the clipper project lately and the paranoia over there may have seeped some what the clipper project btw rule don mix apples with oranges how can you say that the extermination the mongols was worse than stalin khan conquered people unsympathetic his cause that was atrocious but stalin killed millions his own people who loved and worshipped him and his atheist state how can anyone worse than that many rulers have done similar things the past only stalin did when there was plenty documentation afix the blame him the evidence that some the early european rulers ruled with iron fist much like stalin you threw numbers and sick hearing about stalin example because the example doesn apply you managed get angry with your post because appeared attack all forms atheism might have appeared attack atheism general but its point was that mass killing happens for all sorts reasons people will hate who they will and will wave whatever flag justify cross hammer sickle the stalin example important not only because still widely unappreciated era that people want forget but also because people really did love him and his ideas even after all that had wrought the evidence referring more lack evidence than negative evidence say claim there are pink crows have never seen pink crow but that doesn mean couldn exist but this person here claims that there are pink crows even though admits hasn been able capture one get photo find one with etc sense that evidence not believe the existence pink crows that what saying when look the evidence look the suppossed evidence for deity show how flawed and doesn show what theists want show and first all the pink crows unicorns elves arguments the world will not sway most people for they simply not accept the analogy why one the big reasons that many many people want something beyond this life you can pretend that they don want this but for one can accept and even want myself sometimes and there nothing unique this example why people want god can love truth proven logically themselves namely god gods principle hard see how theists are necessarily arrogant makes sense they seem arrogant make such claim but previous refutation still stands and believe there may another one the net john the baptist boasted jesus many people find hard see how that behavior arrogant all many christians know also boast this way but still not necessarily see arrogance course know arrogant christians doctors and teachers well technically you might consider the person who originally made given claim arrogant jesus for instance are you talking about all atheism just strong atheism you are talking about weak atheism which believe then refuse such claim atheism lack belief used good occam razor make the final rejection deity that see things even present the hypothesises equal fasion find the theist argument not plausible speak against strong atheism also often find that the evidence supporting faith very subjective just say the evidence supporting love truth subjective believe answered that apologize for the you stated incorrect assumption your theism but saw nothing indicate that you were agnostic only that you were just another newbie christian the net trying get some cheap shots apology necessary bake timmons iii there nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful life than some good memory alyosha brothers karamazov dostoevsky
alt.atheism	help you god court article tan psuvm psu edu andrew newell tan psuvm psu edu writes article apr daffy wisc edu mccullou snake wisc edu mark mccullough says article monack helium monack helium gas uug arizona edu david monack writes another issue that having request not required recite the help god part the oath theistic jury may prejudiced against your testimony even though atheism probably not all relevant the case what the recommended procedure for requesting alternate oath affirmation dave sorry for using follow respond but server dropped about weeks worth news when couldn keep when the you are asked swear help you god and you have say ask which one jesus allah vishnu zues odin get them specific don obnoxious just humbly ask then quitely sit back and watch the fun james felder sverdrup technology inc phone nasa lewis research center cleveland ohio email jfelder lerc nasa gov some people drink from the fountain knowledge other people gargle
alt.atheism	some thoughts article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy writes deletia wrt pathetic jee zus posting bissel hope you not going flame him please give him the same coutesy you given hasn extended the courtesy you shown don get pie tammy respect your beliefs because you don try stamp them into being have scorn for posters whose sole purpose appears evangelize tammy
alt.atheism	who says the apostles were tortured the traditions the church hold that all the apostles meaning the surviving disciples matthias barnabas and paul were martyred except for john tradition should understood read early church writings other than the bible and heteroorthodox scriptures wingate the peace god peace but strife closed the sod mangoe umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace god
alt.atheism	some thoughts article saturn wwc edu bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes first want start right out and say that christian makes sense one have any you read tony campollo book liar lunatic the real thing might little off the title but writes the book anyway was part effort destroy christianity the process became christian himself sounds like you are saying was part some conspiracy just what organization did belong does have name the book says that jesus was either liar was crazy modern day koresh was actually who said was logic alert artificial trifercation the are many other possible explainations could have been that never existed there have been some good points made this group that not impossible that amalgam number different myths mithra comes mind some reasons why wouldn liar are follows who would die for lie wouldn people able tell was liar people gathered around him and kept doing many gathered from hearing seeing someone who was had been healed call fool but believe did heal people logic alert argument from incredulity just because hard for you believe this doesn mean that isn true liars can very pursuasive just look koresh that you yourself site has followers that don think fake and they have shown that they are willing die not giving after getting shot himself koresh has shown that too will die for what believes far healing goes rememer right the healing that was attributed not consistent between the different gospels one them the healing that done not any more that faith healers can pull off today seems that the early gospels weren that compeling the stories got bigger appeal better niether was lunatic would more than entire nation drawn someone who was crazy very doubtful fact rediculous for example anyone who drawn david koresh obviously fool logical people see this right away therefore since wasn liar lunatic must have been the real thing might not have existed any number things that the logical pitfall that those who use flawed logic like this fall into there are bifurcations tri quad etc that are valid because the proceeding steps the person shows conclusively that the alternatives are all that are possible once everyone agrees that the given set indeed all there are then arguments among the alternatives can presentent and one mostly likely true can deduced excluding all other possible alternatives however can shown that the set not all inclusive then any conclusions bases the incomplete set are invalid even the true choice one the original choices have given least one valid alternative the conclusion that the real mccoy just because isn one the other two alternative longer valid some other things note fulfilled loads prophecies the psalms isaiah and elsewhere hrs alone this his betrayal and crucifixion don have bible with this moment next time write will use was rabbi knew what those prophecies were wouldn any great shakes make sure one does list actions that would fullfill prophecy what would compeling there were set clear and explicit prophecies and had absolutely knowledge then yet fullfilled them anyway don think most people understand what christian certainly not what see lot churches rather think should way life and total sacrafice everything for god sake loved enough die and save should the same hey can god himself inspires turn our lives over him that tuff and most people don want real christian would something for the strong persevere but just like weight lifting guitar playing drums whatever takes time don rush one day christianity your whole life not going church once week helping poor people once while box everything into time units such work this time sports social life god above these boxes and should carried with into all these boxes that have created for ourselves here agree with you anyone who buys into this load mythology should take what says seriously and what says that must total way life have very little respect for xians that don the myth true then true its entirity the picking and choosing that see lot leaves bad taste mouth jim james felder sverdrup technology inc phone nasa lewis research center cleveland ohio email jfelder lerc nasa gov some people drink from the fountain knowledge other people gargle
alt.atheism	some thoughts fri apr gmt healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy said trh hope you not going flame him please give him the same coutesy you trh given but you have been courteous and therefore received courtesy return this person instead has posted one the worst arguments have ever seen made from the pro christian people known several jesuits who would laugh his face presented such argument them let ignore the fact that not true trilemma for the moment nice word maddi original real word and concentrate the liar lunatic part the argument claims that one would follow liar let alone thousands people look ron hubbard now was probably not all there but think was mostly liar and con artist but look how many thousands people follow dianetics and scientology think the baker and swaggert along with several other televangelists lie all the time but look the number follower they have for lunatics the best example hitler was obviously insane his advisors certainly thought yet had whole country entralled and came close ruling all europe how many germans gave their lives for him this day has his followers just amazed that people still try use this argument just obviously wrong mccreary edm twisto compaq com were not for laughter there would tao
alt.atheism	thoughts christians apr gmt bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine said article ofnwyg voa andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu patrick leger writes ever hear baptism birth that isn preying the young don know what that praying the young preying the young comes later when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the priest really wears under that chasible the same thing scotsmen where under there kilt never forget the day when was about tweleve and accidently walked roomfull priests sitting around their underware drinking beer and watching football kind changed opinion bit they didn seem menacing after that mccreary edm twisto compaq com were not for laughter there would tao
alt.atheism	victims various good fight apr levels unisa edu the desert brat said tdb disease introduced brazilian oher tribes million fair this was going happen eventually given time the americans would have reached europe their own and the same thing would have happened was just matter who got together first mccreary edm twisto compaq com were not for laughter there would tao
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality frank uucp frank dwyer writes article apr abo mandtbacka finabo abo mats andtbacka writes and these objective values are please specific and more importantly motivate take wild guess and say freedom objectively valuable yes but whose freedom the world general doesn seem value the freedom tibetans for example mathew
alt.atheism	koresh god the latest news seems that koresh will give himself once finished writing sequel the bible mathew
alt.atheism	where are they now article innf senator bedfellow mit edu tcbruno athena mit edu tom bruno writes stuff deleted which brings the point posting how many people out there have been around alt atheism since done damnedest stay top more stuff deleted hmm usenet got collective hooks into around right after switched engineering say started reading alt atheism around probably not posted more than messages the time since then though never understand how people can find the time write much can barely keep mccreary edm twisto compaq com were not for laughter there would tao
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality reply frank uucp frank dwyer one those people who does not know what the word objective means when put next the word morality assume its idiom and cannot defined its separate terms give try objective morality morality built from objective values from dictionary philosophy anthony flew objectivism the belief that there are certain moral truths that would remain true whatever anyone everyone thought desired for instance one should ever deliberately inflict pain another simply take pleasure his suffering might thought plausible example even world sadists who all rejected the contention remains true just remains correct even there one left count the problem for the objectivist determine the status moral truths and the method which they can established accept that such judgements are not reports what but only relate what ought see naturalistic fallacy then they cannot proved any facts about the nature the world nor can they analytic since this would involve lack action guiding content one ought always the right thing plainly true virtue the vords involved but unhelpful practical guide action see analytic and synthetic this point the objectivist may talk self evident truths but can deny the subjectivist claim that self evidence the mind the beholder not what left the claim that some moral judgements are true the subjectivist may well feel that all that remains that there are some moral judgements with which would wish associate himself hold moral opinion suggests not know something true but have preferences regarding human activity david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire this patently absurd but whoever wishes become philosopher must learn not frightened absurdities bertrand russell
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie article apr andrews nrp andrews norman paterson writes don think you right about germany daughter was born there and don think she has any german rights vote live there beyond the rights all citizens she british citizen virtue her parentage but that not full citizenship for example don think her children could british virtue her the same way fairly sure that she could obtain citizenship making application for might require immigration germany but almost certain that once applied for citizenship inevitable this case more interesting your sentence fact many people try come the have their children born here that they will have some human rights how does the compare islamic country this respect people iran their children will have some human rights would you more interesting only for your propaganda purposes have said several times now that don consider iran particularly exemplary good islamic state might talk about the rights people capitalist secular third world countries give other examples the lack rights third world countries broadly say for example central american secular capitalist countries whose govt the supports but who amnesty international has pointed out are human rights vacua gregg
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes article jxru news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes what you base your belief atheism your knowledge and reasoning couldn that wrong actually atheism based ignorance ignorance the existence any god don fall into the atheists don believe because their pride mistake how you know based ignorance couldn that wrong why would wrong fall into the trap that you mentioned also may what the heck where talking about and why didn keep some comments there see what the line thoughts were mac bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea michael cobb and won raise taxes the middle university illinois class pay for programs champaign urbana bill clinton debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts still have billion dollar deficits
alt.atheism	koresh god fri apr mathew mathew mantis said the latest news seems that koresh will give himself once finished writing sequel the bible also the now can the feds get him tax evasion don remember hearing about him running the post office last night mccreary edm twisto compaq com were not for laughter there would tao
alt.atheism	the pope jewish west next cville wam umd edu stilgar writes the pope jewish always thought that the pope was bear you know because that little saying does bear shit the woods the pope catholic there must some connection between those two lines
alt.atheism	bible quiz article kmr cwru edu kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes article qgbmt usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu frank kirschner writes only when the sun starts orbit the earth will accept the bible since when does atheism mean trashing other religions there must god inbreeding which you are his only son pope john paul
alt.atheism	islamic authority over women benedikt rosenau dbstu wrote when the object their belief said perfect and make the believers act certain way and observe that they don have contradiction something defined contradictorily cannot exist that what the believe does not exist secondly there are better explanations for why they believe than the existence the object their belief have you read the faq already benedikt benedikt can recall anyone claiming that god makes anyone act particlar way think that you attempting manufacture contradiction god said require certain behavior but the only compulsion the believer sense duty standard conduct does exist but are free ignore misunderstand distort whatever ways find convenient but our response god edicts can way used question god existence the behavior believers completely separate question from that god existence there nothing contradictory here say that something defined contadictorily cannot exist really asking too much you would have existence depend grammar all you can really say that something poorly defined but that itself insufficient decide anything other than confusion course your point that there are better reasons for the phenomenon belief than the object belief may lead rat nest unnecessary complexity think know what you implying but like see your version this better alternative just the same bill
alt.atheism	islamic authority over women scott sauyet ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu wrote regardless people hidden motivations the stated reasons for many wars include religion course you can always claim that the real reason was economics politics ethnic strife whatever but the fact remains that the justification for many wars has been conquer the heathens you want say for instance that economics was the chief cause the crusades you could certainly make that point but someone could come along and demonstrate that was really something else the same manner you show that was really not religion you could this manner eliminate all possible causes for the crusades scott don have make outrageous claims about religion affecting and effecting history for the purpsoe all have point out that many claims made here are wrong and nothing validate atheism time have made any statement that religion was the sole cause anything what have done point out that those who make that kind claim are mistaken usually deliberately credit religion with the awesome power dominate history misunderstand human nature the function religion and course history believe that those who distort history this way know exaclty what they doing and only for affect bill
alt.atheism	some thoughts james felder spbach lerc nasa gov wrote logic alert argument from incredulity just because hard for you believe this doesn mean that isn true liars can very pursuasive just look koresh that you yourself cite this whole basis great many here rejecting the christian account things the words madalyn murrey hair face folks just silly why okay disbelieve because your incredulity you admit that fallacy bill
alt.atheism	some thoughts kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com wrote article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine wrote someone spank wrong but didn lord liar lunatic originate with lewis who this campollo fellow anyway think and isn there clear connection with the believe because absurd notion one the original christians origen there similar statement attributed anselm believe that may understand both cases reason somewhat less exalted than anyone posting here could accept which means that neither statement can properly analysed this venue bill
alt.atheism	thoughts christians mccreary edm twisto compaq com wrote apr gmt bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine said article ofnwyg voa andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu patrick leger writes ever hear baptism birth that isn preying the young don know what that praying the young preying the young comes later when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the priest really wears under that chasible does this statement further the atheist cause some way surely not intended wit bill
alt.atheism	thoughts christians kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com wrote this good point but think average people not take christianity much out fear escapism but quite simply way improve their social life get more involved with american culture they are kids immigrants for example since the overwhelming major religion the western world some form other simply the choice people take they are bored and want something new with their lives but not somethong too new too out the ordinary seems little weak but long doesn hurt anybody the social pressure indeed very important factor for the majority passive christians our world today the case early christianity the promise heavenly afterlife independent your social status was also very promising gift reason slaves and non romans accepted the religion very rapidly this hypothetical proposition you should say fact you should cite your sources all this the amateur sociologist sub branch however would suffice alert the unwary that you are just screwing around bill
alt.atheism	nicknames maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com wrote jcopelan nyx edu the one and only writes could start with those posters who annoy the most like bobby bill your wish command bill shit stirrer connor bobby circular mozumder not sure new nom net exactly appropriate but comes very close considering what have wade through before make one insightful dead the money repsonses have agree that something getting stirred would like believe characterization what respond would kinder though but you insist also surprised find that have offended anyone but some cases unavoidable say anything all for those whom fairness important check out contributions haven been most generous and patient veritable paragon gentility btw don mind being paired with bobby admire his tenacity how many you would well this hostile environment you think offensive read your own posts love and kisses bill name conner not connor point humiliating the innocents
alt.atheism	islamic authority over women keith ryan kmr cwru edu wrote nice cop out bill sure you right but have idea what you refer would you mind explaining how copped out bill
alt.atheism	death penalty was political atheists this fascinating atheists argue for abortion defend homosexuality means population control insist that the only values are biological and condemn war and capital punishment according benedikt something contardictory cannot exist which this case means atheists suppose would like understand how atheist can object war excellent means controlling population growth capital punishment sorry but the logic escapes and why just capital punishment what being questioned here the propriety killing punishment what the basis the ecomplaint bill
alt.atheism	americans and evolution robert singleton bobs thnext mit edu wrote sure isn mutually exclusive but lends weight increases notional running estimates the posterior probability the atheist pitch the partition and thus necessarily reduces the same quantity the theist pitch this because the divine component falls prey ockham razor the phenomenon being satisfactorily explained without and there being independent evidence any such component more detail the next post occam razor not law nature way analyzing argument even interesting how often cited here and what end seems odd that religion simultaneously condemned being primitive simple minded and unscientific anti intellectual and childish and yet again condemned being too complex occam razor the scientific explanation things being much more straightforeward and apparently simpler which which the non essential and how you know considering that even scientists don fully comprehend science due its complexity and diversity maybe william occam has performed lobotomy kept the frontal lobe and thrown everything else away this all very confusing sure one you will straighten out tough bill
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes you have disproved one thing but you failed nail see nowhere post did claim that something must believed here are the three possibilities god exists god does not exist don know attack was strong atheism since guess what you said below that makes weak atheist snip first all you seem reasonable guy why not try more honest and include sentence afterwards that honest just ended like that swear hmmmm recognize the warning signs alternating polite and rude coming into newsgroup with huge chip shoulder calls people names and then makes nice whirrr click whirrr clam bake timmons bill shit stirrer connor whirr click whirr frank dwyer might also contained that shell pop stack determine whirr click whirr killfile keith allen schneider frank closet theist dwyer the mind reels maybe they all bobby mozumder maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california kids please don try this home remember post professionally
alt.atheism	death penalty was political athei article apr abo mandtbacka finabo abo mats andtbacka writes rusnews mantis mathew writes wonder noam chomsky reading this could wrong but actually talking about outright government control the media aka censorship doesn any quick one stop shopping reference his works that tell short what does argue for manufacturing consent film about the media you alternative movie source may have this book your local alternative theatre contact films transit international sales jan rofekamp notre dame montreal quebec canada tel fax telex filmtransmtl readers call zeitgeist films shamim mohamed uunet noao cmcl arizona shamim shamim arizona edu take this cross and garlic here mezuzah jewish page the koran muslim and zen buddhist you your own member the league for programming freedom write lpf uunet net
alt.atheism	requests article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes from bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine subject requests date apr gmt article qllg mailer fsu edu mayne fsu edu writes excess stuff deleted however seems that local church elder has been getting revelations from god about devastating quake scheduled level the area may has independent corroboration from several friends who apparently have had similar revelations the quake was fact response request from the lot them seeking sign from god the veracity their visions none this would terribly interesting except for the amount stir has created the area many many people are taking these claims very seriously there are some making plans out the are the target date local religious radio station devoted hours discussion the topic even called during one the live broadcasts tell the host that would have full account conversion may provided family and survived the devastation and ruin that will invariably follow the quake bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea know similar incident about years ago climatologist ithink that was his profession named iben browning predicted that earthquake would hit the new madrid fault dec some schools missouri that were the fault line actually cancelled school for the day many people evacuated new madrid and other towns teh are wouldn suprised there were more journalists the area than residents course teh earthquake never occured how know about his used live southern illinois and the lican middle school was built directly the fault line still had school laughed the poor idiots who believed the prediction bob you wanting excuse convert christianity you gonna have look elsewhere tammy trim healy
alt.atheism	studies book mormon article snx enkidu mic agrino enkidu mic andres grino brandt writes from agrino enkidu mic andres grino brandt subject studies book mormon date sun apr cst don know much about mormons and want know about serious independent studies about the book mormon don buy the official story about the gold original taken heaven but haven read the book mormon myself have much work learning biblical hebrew will appreciate any comment about the results study style vocabulary place names internal consistency and for example there evidence for one writer multiple writers there are some mention about events places historical persons later discovered archeologist yours collen andres grino brandt casilla santiago agrino enkidu mic chile hay mas realidad que realidad razon profeta don think the book mormon was supposedly translated from biblical hebrew read that prophet joseph smith traslated the gold tablets from some sort egyptian ish language former mormons please post tammy trim healy
alt.atheism	societal basis for morality article prv news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb wrote have expect others follow our notion societally mandated morality pardon the extremism but couldn murder your brother and say that was exercising rights saw them was doing what felt good didn want anyone forcing their morality don follow your morality good statement should apply empirical measurements define exact social morals should morals based social rules ancient religious doctrines seems there will never common and single denominator for defining morals and such defining absolute and objective morals doomed fail long humans have this incredible talent creative thinking cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice wrote fred the problem with such reasoning that for non believers need better measurement tool state that person real muslim christian while person not know there are such tools and anyone could believe religion misuse its power and otherwise make bad clearly shows the sore points with religion other words show movement that can spin off khomeinis stalins davidians husseins don think such system exists think the reason for that condition known free will humans have got anybody using their free will can tell lies and half truths about any system and thus abuse for their own ends don think such tools exist either addition there such thing objective information all together looks like religion and any doctrines could freely misused whatever purpose this all reminds descartes whispering deamon you can trust anything why bother cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	free moral agency article pxqs darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner wrote for your question moral free agency given the christian position above the freedom have acknowledge god the morality practice direct outgrowth how excercise that freedom you are free ignore god the same way you are free ignore gravity and the consequences are inevitable and well known both cases that atheist can accept the evidence means only that prefers not accept says nothing about the evidence itself agree had hard feeling not believing grand grand mother who told elves dancing outside barns the early mornings preferred not accept even her statement provided the truth itself life hard cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article mvo blaze jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu ken arromdee wrote article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes think many reading this group would also benefit knowing how deviant the view articulated above which may not the true view khomeini from the basic principles islam from the point view atheist see you claim khomeini wasn practicing true islam but sure that would have said the same about you how member neither group supposed able tell which one you two really true muslim fred rice answered this already early posting the problem with your argument that you not know who real believer and who may faking this something known only the person him herself and god your assumption that anyone who claims believer believer not necessarily true other words seems that nobody could define who true and false muslim are back square one khomeini and hussein are still innocent and can defined evil good islamic worshippers cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	islamic authority over women article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice wrote the problem with your argument that you not know who real believer and who may faking this something known only the person him herself and god your assumption that anyone who claims believer believer not necessarily true that still leaves the door totally open for khomeini hussein rest they could still considered true muslims and you can judge them because this something between god and the person you have apply your rule well with atheists agnostics you don know their belief this something between them and god why the hoopla about khomeini not being real muslim and the hoopla about atheists being not real human beings cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	suggestion for resources faq date mon apr gmt from bruce stephens bruce liverpool think good book summarizing and comparing religions would good confess don know any indeed that why checked the faq see had one but sure some alert reader does think the list books suffers far too much from being christian based agree that most the traffic this nature although few islamic references might good but still think overview would nice one book have which presents fairly unbiased account many religions called man religions john noss was textbook class had comparative religion some such thing has some decent bibliographies each chapter jumping off point for further reading doesn compare religions directly but describes each one individually and notes few similarities but nothing have read could even remotely described preachy christian based fact christianity mercifully consumes only its nearly pages the book divided according major regions the world where the biggies began india east asia near east there nothing about new world religions from the aztecs mayas incas etc just the stuff people kill each other over nowadays and few the older religions snuffed out along the way you like the old stuff then couple books called the ancient near east james pritchard are pretty cool got the epic gilgamesh code hammurabi all the stuff from way back when men were gods and gods were men essential reading for anyone who wishes make their own religion and make sound real good
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics date apr gmt from bake timmons timmbake mcl ucsb edu there are few atheists with time their hands first apologize didn bother reading the faq first and fired imprecise flame that was inexcusable how about the nickname bake flamethrower timmons you weren the koresh compound around noon today any chance were you remember koresh dried for your sins and pass that beef jerky umm umm
alt.atheism	objective values scientific accuracy was after years can say that christian morality article rusnews mantis mathew mathew mantis wrote lpzsml unicorn nott steve lang writes values can also refer meaning for example computer science the value true and false not lisp true all you need define one statement that defined one polarity and all the other states are considered the other polarity then again what the meaning nil false true cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	all mary fault dfuller portal videocart com dave fuller writes nice attempt chris verrry close you missed the conspiracy step joseph knew who knocked her couldn let known that somebody else got mary prego that wouldn well for his popularity the local circles what happened that she was feeling guilty was feeling embarrassed and they decided improve both their images what could have otherwise been the downfall for both clever indeed come think have gained new respect for the couple maybe joseph and mary should receive all the praise being paid jesus lucky for them that the baby didn have any obvious deformities could just see now mary gets pregnant out wedlock save face she and joseph say that was god that got her pregnant and then the baby turns out deformed even worse stillborn they have lot explaining dave buckminster fuller how that one keeper the nicknames nanci you know and are sure the author this quote please send email andrew cmu edu life does not cease funny when people die any more than ceases serious when people laugh
alt.atheism	islam and scientific predictions was article nrl navy mil khan itd itd nrl navy mil umar khan writes how would man century arabia have known what not include the holy qur assuming had authored now judging the qur what not how many mutton headed arguments going have wade through today lots other books have been written this subject those books can speak far more eloquently than one would hope bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article apr bnr rashid writes not sure about this but think the charge shatim also applies rushdie and may encompassed under the umbrella the fasad ruling please define the words shatim and fasad before you use them again john david munch jmunch hertz elee calpoly edu the heart can change full hate love people are allowed base their lives through their hearts anything can happen dangerous situation opinion bobby mozumder describing problems with atheism
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie anecdote about islam article apr nott eczcaw mips nott wainwright writes article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes the authorities referring the authority the world islamic community over itself point was simply that islamic law does apply muslims wherever they are despite the fact that islamic law may not enforcable non islamic countries muslims residing the may decide tried whatever the islamic community but their rulings have legal consequences these isles not really their decision tried the rulings have legal consequences but only islamic law and not law this should obvious enforcing judgment distinct from the making judgment take for example the judgments the world court this internationally recognized tribunal whose judgments often have physical economic effect but which are important despite the fact that their judgments cannot enforced the person may excommunicated similar but decided mete out violent laws such the fatwa then would breaking laws itself and the persons doing such would liable prosecution course have you read any this thread before this post ignore the country laws preference religious laws which are not indigenous the country question absurd and arrogant notion course sort anarchism anarchism explicitly against islam thank you for your well reasoned response but beside the points been making this thread gregg
alt.atheism	jewish settlers demolish mosque gaza iwxm news chalmers bertil dtek chalmers bertil jonell writes article kutluk ccl umist kutluk ccl umist kutluk ozguven writes atheists are not mentioned the quran because from quranic point view and minute reasoning one can see that there such thing but there are people who say that they are atheists they aren atheists what are they when the quran uses the word din means way individual thinking behaving communal order and protocols based set beliefs this often interpreted the much weaker term religion the atheists are not mentioned the quran along with jews mushriqin christians etc because the latter are all din have din you need set beliefs assumptions etc forma social code for example the marxist have those such history conflict etc that they not put idols sometimes they did represent those assuptions does not mean they are any different from the other mushriq roughly polytheists there cannot social atheism because when there community that community needs common ideas standard beliefs coordinate the society when they inscribe assumptions say nation progress the natural consequence human activity parlamentarian democracy doubtlessly the best way government however they individually insist they not have gods from the quranic point view they therefore definition atheism does not exist are atheist society fact means reject the din other than ours atheism can only exist when people reject all the idols gods dogmas suppositions the society that they part and that case that personal deviation belief and quran tells about such deviations and disbelief but mentioned from quranic point looking things there atheism the macro level think took more than one minute kutluk
alt.atheism	nostalgia the recent rise nostalgia this group combined with the incredible level utter bullshit has prompted comb through archives and pull out some the best alt atheism for your reading pleasure post couple these day unless group concensus demands that stop run out good material haven been particularly careful the past about saving attributions think the following comes from john johnson but someone correct wrong this probably the longest entire collection that the prophecy fulfilled considering the christian religion and judging according its claims important look its claims fulfilling earlier jewish prophecy the scribe matthew perhaps the most eager draw out what thinks are prophetic answers the career jesus nazareth you will see matthew main strategy take various old testament passages often not even about the promised messiah and apply them the circumstances the new testament must also bear mind the question the authenticity the accounts since the gospels were written least years after jesus was executed not know how much happened exactly stated but for purposes analysis will take particular claims face value immanuel begin course the beginning mary will bear son and you joseph will name him jesus which means salvation for will save his people from their sins all this happened fulfil what the lord had spoken prophet isaiah the days ahaz bce king judah rezin syria and pekah israel made war jerusalem capitol judah but could not quite conquer when the house david ahaz and his court judah were told this its heart and the heart its people shook and the lord said isaiah meet with ahaz and the lord spoke ahaz through prophet isaiah naturally saying ask sign your lord can deep sheol high heaven but ahaz said won ask will not put the lord test then isaiah said hear then house david not enough for you weary men that you must weary god too therefore the lord himself will give you sign behold young woman with child and will bear son and name him immanuel which means with will eat curds and honey when knows how refuse evil and choose good for before the child knows how refuse evil and choose good the land the two kings you dread will have been deserted matthew homes just the sentence that italics further the hebrew word almah young woman specifically virgin but this not prophecy about the messiah not prophecy about event happen years later not prophecy about virgin bethulah mother short not about jesus matthew has made use verse out context and tries make fit the specific case mary should noted that want read the prophecy general manner very general one can made fit mary mary virgin not was indeed young woman with child course the fit shady and has problems jesus while thought later christians walking among men was never called the name immanuel christianity wished claim this prophecy for jesus becomes best cut and paste prophecy second class prophecy not too convincing egypt after jesus birth bethlehem matthew tells about quick and elsewhere unmentioned excursion egypt wishes liken jesus moses this was done escape alleged infanticidal rampage the king herod and remained there until the death herod this was fulfil what the lord had spoken out egypt have cal led son what the lord really said was this hosea when israel was child loved him and out egypt called son the more called them people the more they went from they kept sacrificing the als and kept burning incense idols matthew conveniently omits the rest hosea oracle but was indeed israel that once called out egypt wanted return this history jesus certainly not being spoken here and are draw some kind parallel here wind with jesus that flees and resists again this prophecy just not convincing matthew probably had hoped rachel weeps while jesus off vacationing egypt matthew says that king herod sought kill him and thus ordered the executions all young male children matthew then writes this that which was spoken the prophet jeremiah was fulfilled voice was heard ramah wailing and loud lamentation rachel weeping for her children she refused consoled because they were more the reference passage jeremiah referring the carrying off israel into exile sargon assyria bce rachel the ancestor the major tribes israel ephraim and manasseh said weep for her descendants who are more metaphorical course since rachel lived and dies before the hebrews were even the egyptian exile interesting note that was leah not rachel who was the ancestor the judeans the land where jesus and bethlehem were anyone should weeping for her children leah the only connexion that rachel has with bethlehem that the legends have that she was buried north the city the way ephrath bethlehem for herod and his infanticide rather unlikely that such event actually occurred one never knows but the event not mentioned alluded anywhere else the bible nor mentioned any the secular records the time herod was particularly unliked his reign and many far less evil deeds herod were carefully recorded this might prime example how events were added jesus life enhance the message the church gospel because the whole story similarity the tale the infant moses egypt highly likely that device set matthew add prophetic yet artificial approval jesus not surprising that matthew conveniently neglects mention the rest the jeremiah quote the children the prophet speaks are not dead but exiled the assyrian empire comforts the weeping rachel saying that the children will returned will gather them back together course this would not suit matthew purpose the children speaks are dead for good again the prophecy matthew sets not even that and anyone who bothers check out not too convincing the nazarene not even have the next chapter find another matthean prophecy after leaving egypt joseph wife take the infant jesus live the city nazareth that what was spoken the prophets might fulfilled shall called nazarene first thing notice that matthew does not mention the name the prophet this time second have ask who there are messianic prophecies speaking nazarene worse there are prophecies period mentioning nazarene still worse there are nazarenes mentioned the old testament all the book judges angel tells samson mother that she will judges conceive and bear son razor shall tough his head for will nazirite his god from the day his birth will deliver israel from the hands the philistines this course not prophecy jesus the messiah but the best that can found obviously matthew has begun overboard cut and paste prophecies that simple making them now bearing our diseases jesus next goes around healing people physical illnesses and disabilities this was fulfil what was spoken the prophet isaiah took our infirmities and bore our diseases expected the verse quoted isaiah quoted out context and few words are skewed fit the christian scheme have surely the suffering servant has borne our sickness and carried our pains from reading the surrounding passages isaiah know that the prophet speaking present tense the collective nation israel jehovah chosen servant and people speaks the israelites suffering exile the voice the gentile nations that look upon this image deeply ingrained jewish identity image chastised yet cherished israel the instrument the nations salvation the verses speak israel taking the sicknesses which are the literal and metaphorical manifestations guilt and discipline they not speak servant going around and healing people notice that the servant isaiah takes the sicknesses and pains the nations and individual jews jesus all know did not take the diseases onto himself the verses here isaiah are not prophecy something come but rather something that had already happened while believed that jesus took the eternal punishment hell did not bear the illnesses healed while someone might want say that figuratively jesus reenacted the deeds israel his spiritual atonement has admit that matthew parallel misses where intended have its effect silent messiah upon healing multitudes commoners said that jesus ordered them keep quiet presumable that wouldn arouse the attention the local rulers this was fulfill what was spoken the prophet isaiah behold servant whom have chosen beloved with whom soul pleased will put spirit him and will announce justice the gentiles will not wrangle cry aloud nor will anyone hear his voice the streets will not break bruised reed quench smoldering wick until brings justice victory and the gentiles will hope his name the isaiah passage quoted reads behold servant whom uphold chosen whom soul delights have put spirit him and will bring forth justice the nations will not cry lift his voice make heard the street will not break bruised reed quench smoldering wick will faithfully bring forth justice will not fail burn dimly discouraged bruised until has established justice the earth and the coastlands await his law you see matthew has conveniently left out part the passage because does not suit the dealings jesus christians could never think jesus failing never would the light mankind burn dimly but the servant nation israel will indeed come end when its job done when the gentiles come embrace there will longer chosen people but rather all will the children also the ending phrase has been changed from the judaic the coastlands await his law the christologic the gentiles will hope his name while the original proclaims the torah law jehovah the other rewrites fit its strange doctrine believing the name one has any doubt the servant referred not jesus one has only read the whole chapter isaiah and hear about the beloved but blind and imperfect servant people robbed and plundered see that when matthew attempt prophecy examined crumbles three days and three nights now come upon prophecy supposedly uttered the very mouth the god jesus himself speaks his crucifixion and resurrection for jonah was the belly the whale for three days and three nights will the son man the heart the earth three days and three nights before any further discussion can occur necessary know how the jews understood days far day names went each was hours long lasting from sunset the following sunset what was referred day was the period light from the ending sunset thus according our time scale sabbath day began friday evening and lasted until saturday evening this why the jews celebrate their sabbath the daylight portion saturdays instead sundays seems like real miracle that christians didn forget that saturday was indeed the seventh and last day the week thus when days and nights are referred together hour daylight portions and hour night periods are being spoken thus jesus says that will the grave hell otherwise unresurrected for three days and three nights the good book tells jesus was crucified the ninth hour which friday afternoon then was put into the grave sometime after that then jesus left the grave rose before dawn what call sunday the dawn after the sabbath was over what this means that jesus was using our time for clarity the grave from friday night some time before sunday morning could also add little time before friday since the bible not specific here what this means using jewish time that was the grave for one day two nights and possibly couple hours one day certainly this problem for jesus prediction there absolutely way are even able have his death involve three days and three nights even using modern time measurements then are led suspect that this error another one matthew little mistakes and that the gospel writer put false words into his god mouth and matter who made the prediction more than unconvincing counter convincing hearing understanding jesus tool habit speaking his vast audiences parables stories which deeper meaning could found you were already one the elect those chosen understand the message jesus reasons that those who can understand the parables are the ones wants the people cannot understand them there need bother with them since they will not accept the plain message any better matthew says with them the audience indeed fulfilled the prophecy isaiah which says you will indeed hear but never understand and you will indeed see but never perceive because this people heart has grown dull their ears are heavy hearing and they have shut their eyes the they would not perceive with them her with their ears and understand with their heart and turn for heal them the original isaiah passages are part his earlier works his call the ministry this bce when israel flourishing right before falls under the authority assyria isaiah sees the good times ending and also vision from calling him bring reform israel and judah and said and say this people hear and hear but not understand see and see but not perceive make the heart this people fat make their ears heavy and shut their eyes they will not see with their eyes hear with their ears and understand with their hearts and turn and healed then isaiah said how long lord and said until the cities lie waste without inhabitant and houses without men and the land utterly desolate and the take men far away and forsaken places are many the land and though tenth will remain will burned again like terebinth oak whose stump still stands when the tree felled the holy seed its stump here see that really who causes the people israel stop listening the prophet warnings but reaffirms the promise made solomon and david seed lineage you read the rest isaiah you find that this done fulfil the plan use israel servant light the nations look isaiah see that matthew has cut and pasted just little portion isaiah verse suit his own gospel needs more than that has altered the words make fit the people who didn understand jesus stories and see isaiah verses are not prophecies but rather commands from him the present once again matthew prophecy falls flat its face matthew tries again make jesus parables look like they have the prophetic approval said nothing them without parable this was fulfil what was spoken the prophet will open mouth them parables will utter that which has been hidden since the foundation the world matthew really botches here attempts quote not from prophet but from the psalms will open mouth parable will utter dark sayings old things that all have heard and known things that our fathers have told will not hide them from their children but tell the coming generation the glorious deeds the lord was pointed out the verses the psalms not really come from prophet you might also want know that earlier copies matthew gospel even inserted isaiah name this prophet apparently later scribes caught the error and tried cover some perhaps the most significant part this that once again matthew has altered the old testament scriptures jesus has said earlier speaks parables that some will not understand them the parables the psalms are not hidden further they speak things known that our fathers have told jesus deals with things hidden since the foundation the world indeed jesus dealt lot secrecy and confusion this direct opposition the parables the psalms wonder matthew had rewrite them and still once again matthew artificial prophecies fall flat their face but christians rarely look this matthew prophecies aren the only things about christianity that are beginning look bad excuses little faith see that the disciples are able around casting out demons except one case not knowing what epilepsy was the people thought those with the disease were possesed with demons wonder that the disciples were unable dispossess the epileptic but jesus perhaps more enlightened than they reported have rebuked them saying they didn have enough faith this seems strange why was this demon special seems that either true believer has faith does not apparently enough faith will allow someone move mountains course you will find one these days that can move real mountains one parts seas the only miracles the charismatics can speak are those rumoured happen trips mexico some faraway place major miracles are making some old woman arthritis feel better sunday morning and the gods including jesus are always shrouded ancient lore and writings protected from the skeptics their sacred pasts they are either dead sleeping hiding heaven with people rumouring about their imminent return and their great miracles days long gone yet life goes tales mystics stories miracles all distant time distant place gods used reveal themselves men the old days jehovah too but now they are silent all the theologians give are various excuses why don get see god anymore too lazy not zealous enough sinful just his plan put too many our own demands appearance had the right faith were willing meet his terms yet even the most pious men have not seen you dear reader have not seen not literally you know that true know that presumptuous and bold but searching your heart you know what mean all that seen religions make people feel good and content about not seeing they say our little faith does not merit see sometimes they say see the love these people you worship with see the lives people change that seeing thus people get lulled sleep satisfied with turning into the everyday sights but that not seeing speaking not seeing the way people used see what see the world that good the compassion human hearts the love given and taken men and women the forgiveness practised christian atheist alike beauty created the mind man these are the things that are done these are what see but said this only because everybody has little faith jesus rides ass shortly after accepting the role the jewish messiah king jesus requests donkey brought for him ride into jerusalem this took place fulfil what was spoken the prophet saying tell the daughter zion behold your king coming you humble mounted ass and ass colt course the passage quoted from zechariah reads little differently your king comes you triumphant and victorious humble and riding ass ass colt will command peace the nations there isn all that much difference here except that zechariah only involves one animal ass colt while matthew reads the poetic wording slightly differently thus has jesus call for both colt and adult ass from matthew version get comical picture the divine christ sweating straddle two donkeys this could inevitably lead theological proctological dilemma find that the account written earlier mark only the colt was called for and brought jesus this indeed fits the verses zechariah properly and shows that matthew attempt use prophetic verses has bungled now excluding many respectable christians have met have noticed that while christ thought have ridden asses the situation often reversed nowadays then entering the jerusalem temple the priests were angered people and youngsters calling jesus the messiah but jesus replied might expect matthew have done haven you read out the mouth babes and sucklings thou has brought perfect praise more likely that matthew made this response since jesus was never one point out such little prophetic things and since might expect the quote error which seems fit matthew track record quite well might ask jesus matthew haven you read for the source reads psalms yahweh our lord how majestic your name the whole world you whose glory chanted above the heavens babes and infants you have founded bulwark against your foes still the enemy and the avenger the passages hardly need comment there perfect praise spoken the psalm and what praise there given not his messiah king and not jesus mentioned seems just one more case matthew pen making convenient prophetic scripture yhvh said lord jesus said have asked from whom the promised jewish messiah king descended the jews agree king david but then jesus counters quoting psalms the lord said lord sit right hand until put your enemies under your feet taken face value jesus denying the necessity davidic descent one assumes opposition their answer course the christian answer that agrees but trying make some hidden point reveal some mystery about the divine nature the messiah king tempting believe this one christian and not interested matters investigation but there are problems jesus time the psalm was thought about the messiah and easy see why david might refer the messiah his superior need only look the scriptures about the messiah see that expected great king bringing the jews times even better than those under david rule course the jews listening had good answer and the passage could indeed refer divine messiah such the christians worship the problem lies the meaning this psalm error that apparently several jews jesus time had also made one must remember that there were various factions among the jews often result different expectations the messiah king jesus was apparently one these adventists like his audience who thought the messiah advent was imminent and who interpreted psalms among others being messianic what the problem then psalm literally reads yhvh utterance lord sit right hand until make your enemies your footstool yhvh sends forth your mighty scepter from zion rule the midst your foes your people will offer themselves freely the day you lead your host the holy mountains you are priest the order melchizedek forever the word lord often mistakenly capitalised christian bibles denote divinity this lord but the hebrew the word adoni and capitalisation exists adoni simply means lord generic term would use used often the scriptures refer kings and merely address respect there nothing the text itself imply that the word refers either divinity the messiah king that this supposed written david not certain the title the psalm translates either psalm david psalm about david seems fitting assume written court poet about david covenant and endorsement from the psalm had been written david unlikely that would talking about the messiah the idea perfect king descended from david was not present david age have extensive tales david doings and sayings none which include any praises messiah many the psalms show evidence being written long after david was dead times the exile when had put his show favour for david kingdom hold the description the psalm fit david very well david was promised rise power victory over his enemies successful judgement among the nations conquered achieved the priesthood common melchizedek being righteous king enabled bless the people all fits not have blame this problem matthew alone though here there not artificial prophecy alluded though his use the scripture rather questionable still this event common the other gospels too let matthew off little more easily this time interesting note though how matthew dresses the event the earlier gospel mark tells the tale with jesus simply speaking crowd matthew has the pharisees who became the religious competition infant christianity the target jesus question might expect matthew writes that the event ends embarrassing the pharisees such power the pen moses jesus had together all along leave the gospel story matthew momentarily see pseudo prophecy john gospel the gospel story john deserves special treatment because seems far removed from the real events jesus career told even matthew but for the moment will just look one verse the early church leaders founded religion the jewish hopes messiah king and artificial extension the original promises made when constructing the history abraham moses wrote promise land and nationhood the jewish people while this was accomplished eventually under the rule king david the christians who came along later decided that they would claim the fulfillment the promise but they expanded the promise preaching about heavenly kingdom john speaking your father abraham rejoiced see day say and was glad would nice tie approval for jesus from abraham but abraham knew nothing jesus messiah anything christian have tried and failed find any event the old testament which corresponds john little prophecy par for the course see john making old testament backings just like his forerunner matthew many christians know that their faith has many its foundations such fraud and surprising they still cling the potter field are told that jesus was betrayed while jerusalem one his followers judas iscariot matthew writes and throwing down the pieces silver the temple judas departed but the chief priests taking the silver said isn lawful for put the treasury since blood money they bought potter field with bury strangers then was fulfilled what was spoken the prophet jeremiah and they took the thirty pieces silver the price him whom price had been set some the sons israel and they gave them for the potter field the lord directed this prophecy utterly gross bastardisation old testament scripture first matthew has made mistake regarding the name the prophet zechariah who utters the verses which matthew makes use zech and they weighed out wages thirty shekels silver then yhvh said cast them the treasury the lordly price which was paid off them took the thirty shekels silver and cast them into the treasury the house yhvh first all the verses zechariah not deal with betrayer the messiah the deal with shepherd most likely priest chosen serve function presiding over the people shortly before would send judah and israel into conflict with one another the word treasury had been replaced the king james scholars with the potter precisely because this made matthew quote fit better but this blatant error the correct translation the hebrew indeed treasury which also makes perfect sense zechariah context whereas potter field totally unrelated whether the mistranslation was intentional not seems beyond speculation however given matthew track record one finds hard resist the notion intentional dishonesty course matthew would have ample reason for altering the text the thirty pieces silver match judas situation and most christians seem the reader willing disregard the contextual incongruity matthew might have another prophecy toss around however the correct translation zechariah directly contradicts the situation with judas and the high priests the high priests would not put the money the treasury the worthless shepherd zechariah does exactly the opposite course the average thursday night bible student the prophecy presented matthew would taken new testament face value those matthew work convincing enough wine vinegar casting lots then jesus led away crucified they gave him vinegar drink mingled with gall but when tasted would not drink and when they had crucified him they divided his garments among them casting lots that might fulfilled what was spoken the prophet they parted garments among them and upon vesture did they cast lots first all the vinegar offered jesus actually common sour wine the type that roman soldiers drank regularly find that right before jesus dies the soldiers themselves give him some drink not polluted with gall jesus said thirst bowl vinegar stood there they put sponge full the vinegar hyssop and held his mouth when had received the vinegar said finished but matthew seems drawing not passage from the prophets but one from the psalms looked for pity but there was none and for comforters but found none they gave poison for food lit they put gall meat and for thirst they gave vinegar drink add them punishment upon punishment may they have acquittal from thee let them blotted out the book the living course the sour wine offered jesus done his request drink this does indeed seem show pity the psalm quoted about david and his political and military enemies not about the messiah jesus then not surprising that run into further problem when see that the jesus the psalm asks for the damnation the crucifiers whereas the jesus the gospels says jesus said father forgive them the don know what they further matthew misses with his attempt create prophecy having gall bitter substance put into jesus drink not his meat the psalm stipulates with the prophecy the vinegar faulty naturally ask what the casting lots this brings the psalm which deserves discussion all itself suffice now say that the fact that jesus clothes were divided told great thing turns out that this happened often any felon those days will soon see perhaps the least erroneous passage the psalm when applied jesus does indeed bring the interesting question the quality jesus clothes for man removed from worldly possessions his ownership clothes worthy casting lots raises some suspicions the psalm this psalm attributed david lament his condition under the attack his enemies becomes song praise yhvh and hope taken out context parts seem fit the plight jesus the crucifixion quite well will examine the primary passages verse god god why have you forsaken why are you far from helping far from the words groaning god cry day but you don answer and night but find rest jesus said have cried the first sentence while the cross this suggests that the whole psalm really about jesus rather than king david course the rest the first stanza does not fit nicely jesus his execution jesus not pictured complaining about the whole ordeal supposed like the lamb led mute before its shearers indeed jesus doesn much groaning even when the cross certainly does not cry both day and night the cross but worm and man scorned men all who see mock they make faces and wag their heads committed his cause yhvh let him deliver him for delights him this seems fit jesus execution pretty well with the exception the holy messiah being called worm many bulls encompass they open their mouths widely like ravening and roaring lion yea dogs are round about company evildoers encir cle they have pierced hands and feet can see all bones they divide garments among them and cast lost for raiment but you yhvh not far away deliver soul from the sword life from the power the dog save from the mouth the lion and afflicted soul from the horns the wild bull would seem quite convincing and sure the early christian fathers who wrote this prophecy thought too unfortunately this prophecy has fatal flaw the words have pierced really not exist the psalm the correct hebrew translation yea dogs are round about company evildoers encircles like the lion they are hands and feet hebrew the phrase like the lion and very rare verb form which can mean pierced differ one phonetic character the word the hebrew text literally like the lion ari which makes sense the context and even further fits the animal imagery employed the psalm writer convenience that would urge christian change the word aru but add the needed yet artificial weight the prophecy this just what the christian translators have chosen while the correct translation does not eliminate the psalm from referring jesus its absence does not say much for the honesty the translators apart from the erroneous verse the psalm does not lend itself jesus easily verse speaks the sufferer being saved from sword rather than cross this naturally fits the psalm true subject king david side note now know that crucifixions did not pierce the hands the palms but rather the forearms this doesn say much favour the traditional thought resurrected jesus showing his disciples the scars his palms but then facts aren bound our religious beliefs matthew escapes culpability this time does not attempt draw many direct links between this psalm and his lord jesus but the psalm like many others was the minds all the gospel writers when they compiled the stories and interpretations jesus life and death how much these scriptures may have contributed what actually got written down question that has serious repercussions for christian theology easy see for those who are not faithful fundamentalists how some the events the new testament might have been enhanced scribes such the eager matthew but does less speculate than simply investigate scriptural matters and prophetic claims far this has not said good things for matthew the reference the piercing looks lot like jesus crucifixion john gospel recount written about years after the fact tells jesus execution but one the soldiers pierced his side with spear and out came blood and water these things took place that scripture fulfilled the will look him whom they pierced course this built passage taken blatantly out context prophet zechariah tells how much the nation israel will split off from jerusalem and judah and war with them and yhvh will give victory judah and that day will seek destroy the nations that come against jerusalem judah and will pour spirit compassion and supplication jerusalem that when they look him who they have pierced they will mourn and weep bitterly over him like you weep over firstborn child john attempt make prophecy perhaps weaker that matthew attempts matthew least usually excontexts more than just one passage john errors are grossly obvious and blatant here does not speak well for any the gospel writers helps show how the prophetic aspects their religion were founded reckoned with transgressors after his arrest jesus quickly executed for claiming the jewish kingship messiahship according one version the gospel tale jesus gets executed along with two thieves and with him they crucified two robbers one his right one his left and the scripture was fulfilled which says was reckoned with the transgressors here mark trying link jesus passage isaiah about the servant nation israel the passage not about the messiah for one reads the whole chapter isaiah and its surrounding chapters one sees that the servant nation the verses are also about what this servant has gone through the past not prediction what come any event the servant thought criminal this also happens fit the description jesus had the passage really been about the messiah still not all clear why executing jesus between two thieves would fulfill the prophecy isaiah jesus would more fittingly fulfill with his whole ministry was considered blasphemer and troublemaker all throughout his career locking onto single event rather poor way steal prophecy least this case see that mark could have had made better analogy with general comparisons mark goes tell how those who were crucified with jesus also reviled him this expected from couple robbers course his later recount luke decides change some things luke tells and one the criminals who was hanged with him railed aren you the messiah save yourself and this certainly fits with mark recount which tells how the people who crucified jesus said save yourself and that the robbers did the same but then luke goes but the other criminal rebuked the first saying don you fear since you are under the same sentence condemnation and indeed justly for are receiving the due reward for our deeds but this man has done nothing wrong and said jesus remember when you come your kingdom and jesus answered verily say you today you will with paradise now this little dialogue seems highly contrived stretches the imagination bit see this picture one ruffian rebuking his fellow criminal with such eloquent speech have rather strange picture criminal lamenting over the goodness his punishment and the justness his suffering such man apparently noble and principle doesn seem likely have been robber wonder the amount theatrics created luke course luke recount also disagrees with mark luke has only one criminal revile jesus not both easy enough discount the discrepancy because the account was made but those who wish believe all part the error free words not have this avenue open this yet another example writer trying take old testament passage and expand and reinterpret suit his theology this case the embroidery creates some embarrassing problems have seen the end the world now comes perhaps one the most extraordinary and embarrassing passages the new testament found all three the synoptic gospel stories and casts some the most unfavourable doubt the whole theory christianity jesus mentions the destruction the jewish temples and buildings and his disciples ask him about this and about the end the world which has been warning about the disciples tell when will this the temple destruction and what will the sign your coming and the close the age jesus take care that one leads you astray for many will come name saying the christ you will hear wars and rumours wars for this must take place but the end not yet for nation will rise against nation all this but the beginning the birthpangs they will deliver you put you death and false prophets will arise and lead many astray but who endures the end will saved this gospel will preached throughout the whole world testimony the nations and then the end will come when you see the desolation spoken the prophet daniel let those who are judea flee the mountains immediately after the tribulation those days the sun will darkened the stars will fall from heaven then will appear the sign the son man heaven and all the tribes the earth will mourn and see the son man coming and will send out his angels and gather his elect learn the lesson the fig tree soon its branch becomes tender and puts forth leaves you know that summer near also when you see all these things you will know that near the very gate truly say you this generation will not pass away until all these things take place but the day and hour one knows not the angels not the son but only the father therefore you also must ready for the son man coming hour you not expect from this clear that jesus thought the world would within the lifetimes least some his disciples tells them that although doesn know the exact day hour that will come and thus they must ready theologians have wet their pants panic find some way out this holy error but unfortunately jesus made himself explicit told his disciples that their generation would still around the end and that they particular should prepare for prepare swept away there have been some who resorted removing the inerrant nature the bible and said that the phrase this generation shall not pass away really means this race people will not pass away course the word for generation used many times refer exactly that the generation the disciples interesting notion that when god decided learn greek didn learn well enough make himself clear but quite obvious from the rest the dialogue that the disciples least some them are supposed live the end the world the charge mistranslation completely blown away looking the apostles responses becomes abundantly clear from rev peter john and rev that jesus meant exactly what said the end was very near for years christians have rationalised this chapter matthew ignored its meaning altogether for years they have waited for their executed leader come back hearing wars and rumours wars sure that coming soon surely must all must wait can you imagine how tired must sitting around there being holy waiting for just the right moment spring shortly after his crucifixion jesus nazareth joshua ben joseph died said that after three days three days and three nights three periods time three eternal seconds three whatever they can decide makes for less trouble was seen again resurrected glowing with divine radiance then the saviour decided wasn the best interests his new religion stick around and therefore disappeared from sight into heaven the story goes anyway has been seen there were many things attributed jesus when people got around writing the gospel stories down them jesus was the fulfiller all prophecy and scripture have seen though that this matter quite shaky but throughout church history christians have held fast faith simple belief what doctrinal objections could not solved with argumentation brute force faith and forgetfulness kept away from question question and investigate has never been the easiest way treat matters thus for years the prophecies cited the new testament have gone largely accepted things may well continue that way for some time pausing moment consider the way the doctrines christianity have been accepted and used properly improperly support wars and persecution suppose there one prophecy which christianity can securely keep hold jesus don think that have come bring peace earth haven come bring peace but rather sword
alt.atheism	some thoughts bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes first want start right out and say that christian makes sense one have any you read tony campollo book liar lunatic the real thing might little off the title but writes the book anyway was part effort destroy christianity the process became christian himself assume you are posting encourage comments how much history has tony campello read not much seems the arguements uses summing the book about whether jesus was god not know many you don believe but listen different perspective for all have something gain listening what others have say good hear that there are few reasonable christians about only those christian scientists would take note australia there very strong movement bunch christian scientists who believe that every single event the bible exactly true and that there rational explanation for all that can justified using the laws physics for example there are few chaps who are trying prove that the age the universe years old and that the error conventional calculations the result the fact that the speed light has been rapidly decaying over the years and this has not been accounted for the book says that jesus was either liar was crazy modern day koresh was actually who said was course that never existed and the bible was story and was never intended become manifesto for billion people did tony follow that one some reasons why wouldn liar are follows who would die for lie wouldn people able tell was liar people gathered around him and kept doing many gathered from hearing seeing someone who was had been healed millions people have died for lie this point difficult substantiate since not well defined great many religious arguments work that way but consider the many aztec warriors who sacrificed themselves their gods the belief that this act would bring them victory the spanish invaders the list endless the aztecs lost btw call fool but believe did heal people that perfectly reasonable but not grounds for anyone become christian more the point does not add weight the claim that jesus was the real thing niether was lunatic would more than entire nation drawn someone who was crazy very doubtful fact rediculous for example anyone who drawn david koresh obviously fool logical people see this right away have you ever seen documentary about the rise nazi germany more the point did tony mention this one could hardly call werner heisenberg and his many colleagues fools illogical men their support hitler was based presume upon emotional issue rather than rational agreement with his principles obviously argument invalid tony thought that hitler was sane therefore since wasn liar lunatic must have been the real thing hmmm don think his arguments warrant the use therefore some other things note fulfilled loads prophecies the psalms isaiah and elsewhere hrs alone this his betrayal and crucifixion don have bible with this moment next time write will use this unfortunately what alot religious discussions have had with people result quoting the bible the only reasonable way think people can look the bible treat the stories some sort metaphorical representation the messages that the authors were trying present someone tries interpret parts the bible literally she will end all sorts shit tony argument would perfectly reasonable for people who believe the events described the bible took place but convince someone who thinks the bible total fiction that jesus real quoting the book totally pointless for example mathematics you cannot say equal because equal don think most people understand what christian that would possibly explain why there have many people being killed religious wars and why there are hundreds different versions all claiming correct certainly not what see lot churches rather think should way life and total sacrafice everything for god sake loved enough die and save should the same hey can god himself inspires turn our lives over him that tuff and most people don want real christian would something for the strong persevere but just like weight lifting guitar playing drums whatever takes time don rush one day christianity your whole life not going church once week helping poor people once while box everything into time units such work this time sports social life god above these boxes and should carried with into all these boxes that have created for ourselves think you posted this part alt religion you would get more flames than here have never really understood why the emotional sentiments stranger should interest other people someone famous said that there two evils life polititians and churchs one rules fear the living the other fear the dead pressed could probably find the exact quotation cheers charles
alt.atheism	bible quiz article apr ccsua ctstateu edu kellyb ccsua ctstateu edu wrote article kmr cwru edu kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes only when the sun starts orbit the earth will accept the bible since when does atheism mean trashing other religions there must god inbreeding which you are his only son think that has rather witty sig file sums great deal atheistic thought imo one simple sentence atheism isn other religion steve mullins vos stratus com man empties his purse into his opinions stratus opinions head one can take from him benjamin franklin
alt.atheism	islam and scientific predictions was article nrl navy mil khan itd itd nrl navy mil umar khan writes strongly suggest that you look book called the bible the quran and science maurice baucaille french surgeon not comprehensive but well researched imagine your library has can get for you through interlibrary loan shall try get hold when have time read course short baucaille began investigating the bible because pre ceived scientific inaccuracies and inconsistencies assumed that some the problems may have been caused poor translations gone days read what could find hebrew greek aramaic what found was that the problems didn away they got worse then decided see other religions had the same problems picked the holy qur french and found similar prob lems but not many applied the same logoic had with the bible learned read arabic the problems had found with the french version went away arabic was unable find wealth scientific statements the holy qur but what did find made sense with modern understanding investigated the traditions the hadith see what they had say about science they were filled with science problems after all they were contemporary narratives from time which had pour standards primitive world view his conclusion was that while was impressed that what little the holy qur had say about science was accurate was far more impressed that the holy qur did not contain the same rampant errors evidenced the traditions how would man century arabia have known what not include the holy qur assuming had authored short the writer writers quran decided stay away from science you not open your mouth then you don put you foot into your mouth either but then you say quran does not talk much about science then one can not make claims like bobby does that you have great science quran basically want say that none the religious texts are supposed scientific treatises just requesting the theists stop making such wild claims vinayak vinayak dutt mail vdp mayo edu standard disclaimers apply
alt.atheism	bible contradictions would like list bible contadictions from those you who dispite being free from christianity are well versed the bible
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality article jts news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes actually atheism based ignorance ignorance the existence any god don fall into the atheists don believe because their pride mistake how you know based ignorance couldn that wrong why would wrong fall into the trap that you mentioned wrong god free any time correct mistake that continues not while supposedly proclaiming his undying love for eternal soul speaks volumes for the trap you are not position tell that don believe god because not wish unless you can know motivations better than myself you should believe when say that earnestly searched for god for years and never found him bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	silly question tianity article pww spac rice edu pww spacsun rice edu peter walker writes from pww spacsun rice edu peter walker subject silly question tianity date mon apr gmt article qaqi inngje gap caltech edu werdna cco caltech edu andrew tong wrote what
alt.atheism	islam and scientific predictions was umar khan khan itd itd nrl navy mil wrote strongly suggest that you look book called the bible the quran and science maurice baucaille french surgeon not comprehensive was unable find wealth scientific statements the holy qur but what did find made sense with modern understanding investigated the traditions the hadith see what they had say about science they were filled with science problems after all they were contemporary narratives from time which had pour standards primitive world view his conclusion was that while was impressed that what little the holy qur had say about science was accurate was far more impressed that the holy qur did not contain the same rampant errors evidenced the traditions how would man century arabia have known what not include the holy qur assuming had authored this book worth read get sensible view this issue the book two sections section contains fairly reasonable analysis the bible showing many inconsistencies between the bible and modern science well all know that surprises section analyses the koran version the old testament stories and seems the face present good case showing the koran consistent with modern science however was plain that this consistency was only possible the vague phraseology the koran take the flood for example the bible full detail forty days and forty nights pair every animal etc all know this nonsense the koran description the same event obscure make possible interpretation such big river flooded for few days and caused much damage yes contradiction but also not much fact the koran might consistent with modern science but being consistent due its vagueness compared with other books that time does not seem much achievement the book concludes saying something like the koran must have had divine inspiration because the time was written there were lot now ridiculous ideas about the universe and none them can found the koran arguing for the greatness book talking about what does not contain seems absurd the extreme the above course from memory may have missed some points leonard mail newnham bradford
alt.atheism	the bible and abortion james lippard lippard skyblu ccit arizona edu wrote exodus and men struggle with each other and strike woman with child that she has miscarriage yet there further injury shall surely fined the woman husband may demand him and shall pay the judges decide but there any further injury then you shall appoint penalty life for life eye for eye tooth for tooth hand for hand foot for foot burn for burn wound for wound bruise for bruise the most straightforward interpretation these verses that men fight strike woman and cause her miscarry the penalty only fine however the woman injured dies the lex talionis doctrine eye for eye applies this the jewish interpretation and supported jewish commentaries these verses this quite embarrassment for pro lifer christians there course alternate explanation the alternative interprets the word miscarriage mean premature birth the child born alive and further injury mean injury either the woman the fetus this not straightforward interpretation not far know supported any jewish commentaries and does not appeared supported any other part the bible what any historical reference have abortion this time did the ancient jew have appropriate reference understand abortion truly asking not making point veiled question there little understanding the medical procedure know abortion not surprising the bible makes little reference makes little reference nuclear power and contamination while your interpretation reasonable one see reason reject the other out hand the king jimmy translation says there further mischief this does not necessarily imply the woman know wife expecting and someone cause her spontaneously abort would feel that life was truly taken not simply process halted
alt.atheism	you will all hell you blashephemers you will all hell for not believing god prepared for your eternal damnation
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger wrote khomeini advocates the view that there was series twelve islamic leaders the twelve imams who are free error sin this makes him heretic wow you quicker point out heresy than the church the middle ages seriously though even the sheiks azhar don claim that the shi ites are heretics most the accusations and fabrications about shi ites come out saudi arabia from the wahabis for that matter you should read the original works the sunni imams imams the four madhabs the teacher least two them was imam jafar sadiq the sixth imam the shi ites although there plenty false propaganda floating around about the shi ites esp since the revolution there are also many good works shi ites which present the views and teachings their school why make assumptions and allegations like people this group have done about islam general about shi ites
alt.atheism	note bobby again article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes how about people who are not religous take the inner city there are many people that care little for religion lot crime lot murder this the other end lack religion that allows wrong happen lived tokyo for year and half and one the many reasons why intend back indefinitely the freedom one enjoys when one can walk anywhere and mean anywhere any time day night and not feel uneasy even one from ethnic minority was clues for bobby why bother tokyo city and inner tokyo inner city there negligible level violent crime and street murder will lead item national news iii the population almost universally atheistic next time for stroll around beirut night let you know how compares bobby mozumder cheers simon simon clippingdale simon dcs warwick department computer science tel university warwick fax coventry
alt.atheism	islam clearer view article bafc dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes from dbstu benedikt rosenau subject islam clearer view date tue apr gmt article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy writes sorry generally accepted that the rise the inquisition the reason why torture was introduced outside the romanic countries the end the middle ages other words the holy mother church which lead infallibly the holy ghost has spread the roman catholic church claims lead the infallable pope that why she the church has done many wicked things xtians and non believers alike the rationale that the pope speaking cathedra infallible based the claim above the dogma about the pope jesuitic origin and has not been been accepted before the mid the last century benedikt you right thanks for enlightening tammy
alt.atheism	cannanite genocide the bible excuse for ignorance but remember reading once that the biblical tribe known the philistines still exists they are the modern day palestinians anyone out there with more info please post tammy
alt.atheism	getting the point all readers have been asked several you post list the sda church fundamental beliefs warn you now long list however post sunday sabbath coming soon won reading saturday and don have time now would greatly appreciate you would keep touch with what going hope all you have reastful and relaxing weekend hope the best one far tammy
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie anecdote about islam article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger wrote have precise about rejection god and his leaving islam one perfectly free muslim and doubt and question the existence god long one does not reject god sure that rushdie has now made his atheism clear front sufficient number proper witnesses the question regard the legal issue his status the time the crime was committed gregg would you consider that rushdie would now left alone and could have normal life other words does islam support the notion forgiving cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie anecdote about islam article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger wrote have stated parallel thread not anarchist nor islam anarchist therefore the should have control over itself however this does not change the fact that possible for citizens the residing within the violation islamic law this interesting notion and one scared case finnish citizen live usa and have conform the laws however the finnish government not actively checking out what doing this country other words checking out conform the finnish laws however islamic law seems curse that following you everywhere the world shades cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	objective morality was political atheists article qlf ginn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider wrote which type morality are you talking about natural sense not all immoral harm another species long doesn adversely affect your own guess hehehe you say but this objective morality somehere tells you that this not the case and you don know all the rules such transcendental game systems cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	free moral agency and kent article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy wrote the time ezekiel was written israel was apostacy again and not mistaken tyre was about make war israel like said the prince tyre was the human ruler tyre was wicked man calling satan the king tyre ezekiel was saying that satan the real ruler over tyre tammy this all explicitly stated the bible you assume that you know that ezekiel indirectly mentioned could have been another metaphor for instance ezekiel was mad his landlord talked about him when wrote about the prince tyre sorry but interpretation more mundane ezekiel wrote about the prince tyre when wrote about the prince tyre cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	sci skeptic religion was why alt atheism article psuvm psu edu john johnson psuvm psu edu writes standard groups sci soc talk must conform stricter rules when being established and must show certain volume postings else they will cease exist these groups also reach more sites usenet than alt groups already posted opinion mathew suggestion which was that alt atheism the verge having too many garbage postings from fundies and elevating its status standard group and consequently the volume such postings could make unreadable tend agree came here when first started and watched grow from the roots talk religion misc seemed take while for enough atheists come forward get past the let trash xians and such now there stable core and frankly there feeling that this our group mainstream going lot more places and every fucking fundy loonie freshman will dumping find jeesus and warn that all going hell want see what get real alt fan brother jed and imagine that those imbecilic tirades will here all the time every other post being selfish find really learn lot here and the isn too bad the browns and the boobys are distraction but they are few enough that they even bring some the leavening needed offset them but greatly fear that mainstreaming would basically put the swamping level the conners the world regards dew dewey henize sys net admin risc hardware pager
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie just has this part gotten beyond useful gregg not understand his posts giving any support the bounty rushdie life that correct end one point gregg using the concept legal way most westerners don accept his comments about islamic law think make great deal sense him and are even making little sense now person member group religion whatever they bind themselves follow the ways the group within the bounds what the group requires minimum the big bone contention here that picking that the west have secular governments that maintain more less level control and requirements outside the requirements optional groups think the majority reading this thread are tune note didn say agreement with the idea that you are finally responsible the secular government and within that the group groups person may have chosen with that mind not possible under secular law legally most people would define the term hold person particular group once they decide separate from only the secular authorities agree that there requirement some sort contractual etc there any secular enforcement allowed group group member past group member religion can and often does believe and require additional duties group member and can enforce the fulfillment those duties many ways ostracism common for example but the limit comes when the enforcement would impose unwanted and unaccepted onus person conflict with secular law this the difference theocracy the requirements the secular authorities are definition congruent with the religious authorities outside theocracy this not necessarily true religious requirements may coincide may not similiarly religious consequences may may not coincide with secular consequences any regards dew dewey henize sys net admin risc hardware pager
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article apr bnr rashid writes deletions the fatwa was levelled the person rushdie any actions rushdie that feed the situation contribute the legitimization the ruling the book remains circulation not some independant will its own but the will the author and the publishers the fatwa against the person rushdie encompasses his actions well the crime was certainly crime progress many levels and was being played out and played the the full view the media not sure about this but think the charge shatim also applies rushdie and may encompassed under the umbrella the fasad ruling this grounded firmly islam you claim then you have just exposed islam the grounds for terrorism plain and simple whether you like not whether rushdie acted like total jerk not there acceptable civilized basis for putting someone fear their life for words simply does not matter whether his underlying motive was find the worst possible way could insult muslims and their beliefs got that you not threaten the life someone for words when you you quite simply admit the backruptcy your position you support threatening the life someone for words you are not yet civilized this exactly where and many the people know have depart from respecting the religions others when those beliefs allow and encourage interpretation the killing non physical opposition you anyone are more than privledged believe that someone whether rushdie bush hussien whover beyond the pale civilized society and you can condemn his her soul refuse allow any members your association interact with him her peacably demonstrate try convince others disassociate themselves from the miscreants whatever short physical force but once you physically threaten support physical threats you get much closer your earlier comparison rape with you the rapist who whines she asked for look how she was dressed blaming the victim when you are unable civilized doesn fly dew dewey henize sys net admin risc hardware pager
alt.atheism	nicknames article ufnyj voqit vpa andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu nanci ann miller writes jcopelan nyx edu the one and only writes welcome the official keeper the list nicknames that people are known alt atheism didn know had such list did you your have been awarded the nickname buckminster the next time you post article sign with your nickname like dave buckminster fuller thanks again jim humor means never having say you sorry copeland course the list has agree with the nickname laws laid down the gipu almost years ago you know the them that were written the iron tablets that melted once and had reinscribed since prophet the gipu decree that you should post the whole list nicknames for the frequent posters here the first rule humor never having say you sorry then the second rule must never having explain yourself few things are worse that joke explained spite this and because requests for post list nicknames must admit that such list exists was simply plot device along with being the keeper the list make the obvious play the last name fuller and advance the idea that such list should made assumed that the timers would recognize for what nevertheless how about list nicknames for alt atheism posters you think good one just post and see others like could start with those posters who annoy the most like bobby bill jim broke the second rule humor copeland god dead and the actor plays his part sting his words fear will find their way place your heart history without the voice reason every faith its own curse will teach without freedom from the past things can only get worse nothing
alt.atheism	death penalty gulf war article rusnews mantis mathew mathew mantis writes rush leland stanford edu voelkerding writes article apr seachg com chrisb seachg com chris blask writes add this the outrageous cost putting someone death special cell block years court costs extra guards and the benefits the death penalty entirely disappear that because your earlier claim that the one innocent death overrides the benefit all the others obviously tragic but argument for doing away with the death penalty went war and worried about accidentally killing civilians all the time because our determination who the enemy really imperfect then there way win the war yes fortunately have right thinking folks like your good self power and was therefore deemed acceptable slaughter tens even hundreds thousands iraqis order liberate oil hkuwait won the war hurrah hurrah the number civilian iraqi deaths were way over exaggerated and exploited for anti war emotionalism the liberal news media the facts are that less iraqis died the gulf war than did civilians any other war comparable size this century this was due mostly the short duration coupled with precise surgical bombing techniques which were technically possible only recently the idea that hundreds thousands iraqi citizens died ludicrous not even hundreds thousands iraqi soldiers died and they were the ones being targeted you think that the and its allies were specifically out kill and maim iraqi civilians either the smart bombs didn hit their targets and know they did they were targeting civilian targets which hardly condusive destroying iraq military potential the military mission planners are not fools they know they have hit military targets win war hitting civilian targets does nothing but unite the people against you not laudable goal one wants the people rise against their tyrant dictator some innocent people died yes maybe the unarmed civilians fleeing along that road didn need bombed bits perhaps that kid with half his face burned off and the little girl with the mangled legs weren entirely guilty but worth the death few innocents save the oil hlives the kuwaiti people isn after all the iraqis may not have had chance vote for saddam but they showed their acceptance his regime not assassinating him right all that surrendering and fleeing along open roads was just devious ploy were entirely within our rights bomb just case without finding out they were soldiers how about all the innocent people who died blanket bombing don hear you bemoaning them war never exact science but with smart bombs becoming more exact with smaller percentage civilian casualties sometimes mistakes are made targets are misidentified innocents die that war the way really but the alternative allow tyrannical dictators treat the earth like one big rummage sale grabbing everything they can get worse like patrick henry said some years ago know not what course others may take but for give liberty give death war always the price one must willing pay one wishes stay free the death penalty was conceived deterrent crime but the legal shenanigans that have been added automatic appeals lengthy court battles etc have relegated that purpose very small part what should hence the question instate the death penalty was meant and see that deters crime get rid entirely yes let reinstate the death penalty the way ought all that shit about fair trials and court appeals just gets the way justice let give the police the absolute right gun down the guilty and save ourselves the expense all those lawyers think the knock benefits too would never have had spend much money cleaning after riots and holding showcase trials the cops had been allowed their job properly quick bullet through the head rodney king and another for the cameraman and everyone would have been saved great deal unnecessary paperwork and expense after all the police decide man guilty that ought enough the fact that the death penalty has been shown not have any deterrent effect over imprisonment well that entirely irrelevant mathew mathew your sarcasm noted but you are completely off base here you come off sounding like complete peace nik idiot although feel sure that was not your intent the iraqi war was wrong sure that appeasement would have worked better than war just like did guess shouldn have fought either just think all those innocent german civilians killed dresden and hamburg how about all the poor french who died the crossfire because invaded the continent should have just let hitler take over europe and you speaking german instead english right now tyrants like hussein have stopped his kind don understand diplomacy they only understand the point gun only regret that bush wimped out and didn have the military roll into baghdad now hussein still power and the iraqi people sacrifice not mention the americans who died was for naught liberating kuwait was good thing but wiping hussein off the map would been better and for poor poor rodney king did you ever stop and think why the jury the first trial brought back verdict not guilty those who have been foaming the mouth for the blood those policemen certainly have looked further than the video tape but the jury looked all the evidence evidence which you and have not seen when one makes judgment without the benefit trial where evidence can presented both sides one has simply lowered himself the level vigilante justice state mind which your sarcasm above seemingly spoke against but instead tends support the case against the policemen law this country intended protect the rights the accused whether they criminals cops one not found guilty there reasonable doubt one guilt and only the jury position assess the evidence and render verdict anyone else simply succumbing verbal vigilantism regards jim
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes article apr andrews nrp andrews norman paterson writes don think you right about germany daughter was born there and don think she has any german rights vote live there beyond the rights all citizens she british citizen virtue her parentage but that not full citizenship for example don think her children could british virtue her the same way fairly sure that she could obtain citizenship making application for might require immigration germany but almost certain that once applied for citizenship inevitable this case nope germany has extremely restrictive citizenship laws the ethnic germans who have lived russia for over years automatically become citizens they move germany but the turks who are now their third generation germany can not very good example show citizenship without descent karl lastly come china the hope all you touch and all you see fulfilling lifelong ambition all your life will ever dropping acid the great wall duke pink floyd lie still lie even billion people believe
alt.atheism	you will all hell fri apr edt jsn psuvm psu edu said you blashephemers you will all hell for not believing god prepared for your eternal damnation hmm got mst lunch box travel scrabble and couple kegs bass ale all set let everybody mccreary edm twisto compaq com were not for laughter there would tao
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie article dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes assume that you say here religious law for the followers the religion that begs the question why the religion has the right define who follower even when the offenders disagree say religious law applies those who are categorized belonging the religion when event being judged applies this prevents situations which someone member religion who when charged claims that she was not member the religion they are free nothing had happened gregg
alt.atheism	anecdote about islam article dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes brutal system filtered through leniency not lenient huh how you rate public floggings floggings all chopping off the hands heads other body parts what about stoning don have problem with floggings particularly when the offenders have been given chance change their behavior before floggings are given have problem with maiming general whatever means opinion one who has not maimed another should maimed the case rape the victim maimed physically and emotionally wouldn have problem with maiming rapists obviously wouldn have problem with maiming murderers either may ask you had the same opinion before you became muslim sure yes did you see don think that rape and murder should dealt with lightly you being interested leniency for leniency sake apparently think that people should simply told the did bad thing and what about the simple chance misjudgements misjudgments should avoided much possible suspect that pretty unlikely that given requirement repeated offenses that misjudgments are very likely orient not place having single character your ignorance exposes itself nicely here read carefully have not said all the orient shows primitive machism well then why not use more specific words than orient probably because your mind there need all the same because contains sufficient information while more detail possible not necessary and europe shows civilized bullshit this bullshit time put out shut you substantiated nothing and are blabbering like islamists who talk about the west the great satan you both guilty stupidities just love compare such lines the common plea your fellow believers not call each others names this case substantiate the quran allows that one beats one wife into submission really care give chapter and verse could discuss primitive machism refers that have misspelt that before fault again not all the orient follows the qur you have better than that sorry you haven put out enough islam expresses extramarital sex extramarital sex subset sex suppressedin islam that marial sexis allowed encouraged islam many branches christianity too misses the point read the part about the urge for sex again religions that run around telling people how have sex are not piece cake for two reasons suppressing strong urge needs strong measures and not their business anyway believe what you wish thought you were trying make argument all reading are opinions argument that you doubt the validity the premises does not change you want criticize time for you put shut this argument for why you don like religions that suppress sex such irrelevant argument you like generalize objective statement then fine response then you have given reason for your statement that sex not the business religion one your arguments the urge for sex adolescents not strong that any overly strong measures are required suppress the urge have sex strong adult then that adult can make commensurate effort find marriage partner gregg
alt.atheism	free moral agency article kmr cwru edu kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes article apr princeton edu qpliu phoenix princeton edu liu writes while faith itself gift obedience what makes faith possible what makes obeying different from believing still wondering how that obedient when have idea whom obedient all written the wholly babble the users guide invisible pink unicorns granted faith invisible pink unicorns you must read the babble and obey what written obey what written the babble you must believe that doing the way granted faith invisible pink unicorns believe that obeying what written the babble leads believing invisible pink unicorns you must essentially believe invisible pink unicorns this bit circular reasoning begs the question what makes obeying different from believing qpliu princeton edu standard opinion opinions are delta correlated
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article apr bnr rashid writes what about the twelve imams who considered incapable error sin khomeini supports this view the twelve imans this heresy for the very reasons gave above would happy discuss the issue the imams with you although preference would move the discussion another newsgroup feel philosophy religion group would more appropriate think many reading this group would also benefit knowing how deviant the view articulated above which may not the true view khomeini from the basic principles islam that the non muslim readers this group will see how far from the simple basics islam such views are the face them and they are not contradiction with the basics islam how subtle such issues are and how seems sects exist islam while they are explicitly proscribed the qur the topic deeply embedded the world view islam and the esoteric teachings the prophet heresy does not enter into all except for those who see islam only exoteric religion that only nominally all concerned with the metaphysical substance man being and nature opinion considering any human being having substance metaphysical fundamentally different from that any other human being heretical notion and one proscribed islam from your posts you seem fairly well versed sunni thought you should seek know shi ite thought through knowledgeable shi ite authors well least that much respect due before the charge heresy levelled absolutely would interested discussing this privately and interested hearing how one might try make the concept error free and sinless human beings philosophically consistent with the teachings the qur however prima facie such attemptsa are highly susceptible degenerating into monkery explicitly proscribed the qur salaam laikum alaikum wassalam gregg
alt.atheism	koresh god date fri apr from mathew mathew mantis the latest news seems that koresh will give himself once finished writing sequel the bible mathew writing the seven seals something along those lines already written the first the seven which was around pages and has handed over assistant for proofreading would expect any decent messiah have built spellchecker maybe koresh will come with one
alt.atheism	islam and scientific predictions was date fri apr gmt from umar khan khan itd itd nrl navy mil his conclusion was that while was impressed that what little the holy qur had say about science was accurate was far more impressed that the holy qur did not contain the same rampant errors evidenced the traditions how would man century arabia have known what not include the holy qur assuming had authored well looks like the folks soc religion islam have loosened bit and are discussing this topic well the banking interest topic few books the subject have also been mentioned addition the one you mentioned these may hard find but think may take stab out curiosity know the one film saw this subject was pretty weak and the only two quotes have seen which were used show science the koran which posted here were also pretty vague suspect that these books will extrapolate awful lot the quotes they have least one poster the islam channel seems have some misgivings about the practice using the koran decide what good science wonder islam has ever come with the equivalent the christians creation science any topic would interesting find history scientific interpretations the koran see anyone used the koran support earlier science which has since been discarded all too easy look science exists today and then interpret passages match those findings people similar things with the sayings nostradamus all the time anyway rather unique claim islam and may worth checking
alt.atheism	keith relativist levels unisa edu the desert brat writes keith you start wafffling about how different for human maul someone thrown into cage speak you better start posting tome decent evidence retract your think there absolute morality blurb few weeks ago did claim that there was absolute morality just objective one keith
alt.atheism	political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes perhaps the chimps that failed evolve cooperative behaviour died out and are left with the ones that did evolve such behaviour entirely chance that the entire point are you going proclaim natural morality every time organism evolves cooperative behaviour yes natural morality morality that developed naturally what about the natural morality bee dance huh keith
alt.atheism	objective morality was political atheists sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes which type morality are you talking about natural sense not all immoral harm another species long doesn adversely affect your own guess hehehe you say but this objective morality somehere tells you that this not the case and you don know all the rules such transcendental game systems which objective system are you talking about what its goal again which brand morality are you talking about keith
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article apr bnr rashid writes article apr zeus calpoly edu jmunch hertz elee calpoly edu john munch wrote article apr bnr rashid writes not sure about this but think the charge shatim also applies rushdie and may encompassed under the umbrella the fasad ruling please define the words shatim and fasad before you use them again apologies shatim believe refers slandering spreading slander and lies about the prophets any the prophets basically any prophet ever dealt with has either been busy hawking stolen merchandise selling swampland house lots florida then you hear all the stories sexual abuse prophets and how the families victims were paid keep quiet about kind willful caulmny and cursing that indicated the word this the best explanation can come with off the top head try and look more technical definition when have the time never mind that but let tell you about this chevelle bought from this dude you guessed prophet named mohammed got the car for like two days when the tranny kicks then manny mechanic tells was loaded with sawdust take guess whether mohammed was anywhere found don think fasad little more difficult describe again this not technical definition try and get that later literally mohammed the word fasad means mischief but mischief the order magnitude indicated the word corruption when someone who doing something wrong begin with seeks escalate the hurt yeah you mohammed disorder concern harm etc the mischief initially caused their actions the wrong specifically related attacks against god and his messenger and mischief corruption disorder etc you slimy mass pond scum resulting from that the attack need not physical attack and there are different levels penalty proscribed depending the extent the mischief and whether the person persons sought make hay the situation the severest punishment death yeah right you the one should watching your butt you and your buddy allah the stereo sold croaked after two days your ass grass jim yeah that right jim
alt.atheism	cruel was political atheists kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes they spent quite bit time the wording the constitution they picked words whose meanings implied the intent have already looked the dictionary define the word isn this sufficient only need ask the question what did the founding fathers consider cruel and unusual punishment hanging hanging there slowing being strangled would very painful both physically and psychologicall imagine well most hangings are very quick and imagine painless firing squad note not clean way die back those days etc all would considered cruel under your definition all were allowed under the constitution the founding fathers and hangings and firing squads are allowed today too and these things were not considered cruel then surely medical execution painless would not either keith
alt.atheism	cruel was political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes they spent quite bit time the wording the constitution realise that this widely held belief america but fact the clause cruel and unusual punishments like lot the rest was lifted from the english bill rights just because the wording elsewhere does not mean they didn spend much time the wording have already looked the dictionary define the word isn this sufficient since the dictionary said that lack mercy intent inflict injury grief counted cruel sure people can described cruel this way but punishments cannot keith
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes say religious law applies those who are categorized belonging the religion when event being judged applies this who does the categorizing cheat hillary too john laws local gop reprehensitive extolling traditional family values
alt.atheism	cruel was political atheists article qnpa inn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes hanging hanging there slowing being strangled would very painful both physically and psychologicall imagine well most hangings are very quick and imagine painless think this misnomer firing squad note not clean way die back those days etc all would considered cruel under your definition all were allowed under the constitution the founding fathers and hangings and firing squads are allowed today too and these things were not considered cruel then surely medical execution painless would not either but this just shows then that painful execution not considered cruel and unusual punishment this shows that cruel used the constitution does not refer whether not the punishment causes physical pain rather must different meaning cheat hillary too john laws local gop reprehensitive extolling traditional family values
alt.atheism	the nonexistance atheists article kutluk ccl umist kutluk ccl umist kutluk ozguven writes atheists are not mentioned the quran because from quranic point view and minute reasoning one can see that there such thing guess that why scientists probably aren mentioned either stock brokers television repairmen precious know just how deep the brainwashing from childhood that takes progress religion cleans away very substantial part the reasoning neurons but don mind don exist jim halat
alt.atheism	anecdote about islam article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes deletion sure yes did you see don think that rape and murder should dealt with lightly you being interested leniency for leniency sake apparently think that people should simply told the did bad thing straw man and you brought leniency and what about the simple chance misjudgements misjudgments should avoided much possible suspect that pretty unlikely that given requirement repeated offenses that misjudgments are very likely assuming that misjudgements are not correlated deletion just love compare such lines the common plea your fellow believers not call each others names this case substantiate the quran allows that one beats one wife into submission really care give chapter and verse could discuss has been discussed here chapter and verse were cited assume that you weren looking then let more exact you think not the quran and what would your consequences when was shown primitive machism refers that have misspelt that before fault again not all the orient follows the qur you have better than that have not claimed that sufficient for the argument when there are lot male dominated societies that qualify machistic are you going say that the situation women better sufficeint areas the orient deletion this argument for why you don like religions that suppress sex such irrelevant argument you like generalize objective statement then fine response then you have given reason for your statement that sex not the business religion one your arguments the urge for sex adolescents not strong that any overly strong measures are required suppress the urge have sex strong adult then that adult can make commensurate effort find marriage partner you apparently have trouble reading things you don like the point was having sex the way one wishes being strong desire marriage red herring tell about homosexuals for one you simply ignore everything that doesn fit into the world you would like have and for the situation adolescents one has probably keep your combination leniency and maiming mind whe you say that does not take overly strong measures suppress the urge for sex adolescents benedikt
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie article apr eagle wesleyan edu kmagnacca eagle wesleyan edu writes deletion nope germany has extremely restrictive citizenship laws the ethnic germans who have lived russia for over years automatically become citizens they move germany but the turks who are now their third generation germany can that wrong they can benedikt
alt.atheism	little too satanic jon livesey writes why read the papers that the qumram texts had different versions some texts did misunderstand reading newspapers learn about this kind stuff not the best idea the world newspaper reporters are notoriously ignorant the subject religion and are prone exaggeration the interests having real story that bigger headline let back this point have the masoretic text the various targums translations commentaries aramaic etc and the septuagint the ancient greek translation the masoretic text the standard jewish text and essentially does not vary some places has obvious corruptions all which are copied faithfully from copy copy these passages the past were interpreted reference the targums and the septuagint now the septuagint differs from the masoretic text two particulars first includes additional texts and second some passages there are variant readings from the masoretic text addition fixing predating the various corrupted passages must emphasized that the best knowledge these variations are only signifcant bible scholars and have little theological import the dead sea scroll materials add this ancient copy almost all isaiah and fragments various sizes almost all other books there also abundance other material but far know there sign there any hebrew antecdent the apocrypha the extra texts the septuagint far analysis has proceeded there are also variations between the dss texts and the masoretic versions these tend reflect the septuagint where the latter isn obviously error again though the differences thus far are not significant theologically there this big expectation that there are great theological surprises lurking the material but far this hasn happened the dss are important because there almost textual tradition the unlike for the wingate the peace god peace but strife closed the sod mangoe umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace god
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality frank uucp frank dwyer writes ray netcom com ray fischer writes frank uucp frank dwyer writes plus questions for you why subjectivists relativists nihilists get het about the idea that relativism better than objectivism the degree that relativism more accurate decription the truth than objectivism provides more power and ability control events think you lose the right talk about the truth once you say values are relative accuracy value judgement too happens agree with the substance what you say below but clear that least some values are objective truth better than falsehood peace better than war education better than ignorance know these things know anything while agree that these are generally held good things question whether they come very close being objective values especially considering that one time another each has been viewed being undesirable doubt you could even come with anything that could said universally good bad and when referred the truth was using the term hypothetically realizing full well that there may not even such thing assuming for the moment that morals are relative then two relativists can recognize that neither has lock the absolute truth and they can proceed negotiate workable compromise that produces the desired results they cannot because they acknowledge front that the desired results not exist that after all the meaning compromise plus some problems the relativists have values common compromise impossible what happens then who anyone right what happens one relativist has value never compromise value plant bombs crowded shopping areas after all morals are relative these values cannot meaningfully said incorrect true enough but they cannot said anything more than personal morals one thing notably lacking most extremists any sense personal accountability the justification for any socially unacceptable behaviour invariably some higher authority aka absolute moral truth assuming that there absolute morality two disagreeing objectivists can either both wrong just one them right there room for compromise once you beleive absolute morals you must accept that you are amoral that everyone who disagrees with you amoral untrue one can accept that one does not know the whole truth part the objective truth about morality may well that flexibility better than rigidity compromise better than believing you have lock morals etc the same way can believe objective reality without claiming know the mechanism for quantum collapse who shot jfk objective truth that says one cannot know the objective truth interesting notion certainly one can have one morals belief that compromise good but compromise the absolute truth not something most people very successfully suppose one could hold compromise being absolute moral but then what happens when someone else insists compromise how you compromise compromising given choice between peaceful compromise endless contention say that compromise seems better and would agree but bloody pointless speak merely matter taste your liking for peace any better founded than someone else liking for ice cream looking for way say yes that question and relativism isn almost invariably when considering the relative value one thing over another morals consequences people only consider those aspects which justify desired action belief justifying commitement peace might argue that lets people live long healthy and peaceful lives while that much may well true incomplete ignoring the benefits war killing off the most agressive member society trimming down the population stimulating production the equation always more complex than presented characterize relative morals merely following one own conscience desires unduly simplify ray fischer convictions are more dangerous enemies truth ray netcom com than lies friedrich nietzsche
alt.atheism	islamic banks was slavery article monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes apr bmw mayo edu vdp mayo edu vinayak dutt writes instead calling interest deposits you call returns investements and instead calling loans you call investing business that other words floating stocks your company interest different from return investment for one thing return investment has greater risk and not set return the amount money you make can down you might even lose money the difference the risk loss shared the investor rather than practically all the risk being taken the borrower when the borrower borrows from the bank but different from stocks you wish call investor stocks banker well then its your choice relabeling does not make interest free not just relabeling have explained above relabeling also its still not interest free the investor still taking some money dividend his investment ofcourse the investor islamic banking its your called bank taking more risk than the usual bank but its still getting some thing back return also have you heard junk bonds vinayak vinayak dutt mail vdp mayo edu standard disclaimers apply
alt.atheism	don need stinking subjects article avinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes kcochran nyx edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes kcochran nyx edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes you going claim something then you prove think cold fusion well provided examples show that the trend was general and you others have provided some counterexamples mostly ones surrounding mating practices etc don think that these few cases are enough disprove the general trend natural morality and again the mating practices need reexamined what you saying that your mind made and you just explain away any differences being statistically insignificant try find immoral non mating related activities you excluding mating related activities from your natural morality but mating practices are special case have think about some more you just explain away any inconsistancies your theory being special case yes think that the natural system can objectively deduced with the goal species propogation mind but not equating the two you think that objective system isn necessarily the natural one are you are you not the man who wrote natural moral system the objective moral system that most animals follow indeed but while the natural system objective all objective systems are not the natural one the terms can not equated the natural system subset the objective ones you just equated them read your own words now since homosexuality has been observed most animals including birds and dolphins are you going claim that most animals have the capacity being immoral don claim that homosexuality immoral isn harmful although isn helpful either the mating process and when you say that homosexuality observed the animal kingdom don you mean bisexuality study release found that female seagulls are lesbians well saying that these goals are not inherent that why they must postulates because there not really way determine them otherwise although could argued that they arise from the natural goal but they are somewhat removed postulate assume posit that right the goals themselves aren inherent can create theory with postulate that the sun revolves around the earth that the moon actually made green cheese and the stars are the portions angels that intrudes into three dimensional reality you could but such would contradict observations now apply this last sentence your your theory notice how your are contridicting observations can build mathematical proof with postulate that given the length one side triangle the length second side the triangle and the degree angle connecting them can determine the length the third side but postulate something that generally always found true don think your postulate would valid you don know much math you the ability use sas determine the length the third side the triangle fundemental geometry guess which one people are going more receptive order assume something about your system you have able show that your postulates work yes and think the goals survival and happiness work you think they don are they not good goals goals postulates again one the goals this objective natural morality system you are proposing survival the species then homosexuality immoral kcochran nyx edu tsakc thoughts posts ideas responsibility beer pizza
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality qkq horus mchp sni frank uucp writes attempting define objective morality take wild guess and say freedom objectively valuable base this the assumption that everyone the world were deprived utterly their freedom that their every act was contrary their volition almost all would want complain long you keep that almost there freedom will mostly valuable thing most people that think you really saying real big lot people agree freedom subjectively valuable them that good and quite nice starting point for moral system but not universal and thus not objective therefore take that assert believe that freedom not very valuable when almost everyone can see that every bit absurd assert not raining rainy day isn sahara disclaimer great young and insane
alt.atheism	political atheists article qinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes kcochran nyx edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes schneider natural morality may specifically thought code ethics that certain species has developed order survive wait are talking about ethics morals here the distinction important yes see this countless times the animal kingdom and such natural system the basis for our own system well huh well our moral system seems mimic the natural one number ways please describe these number ways detail then explain the any contradictions that may arise order for humans thrive seem need live groups here your problem seem need what wrong with the highlighted word don know what wrong possible for humans survive for long time the wild yes possible but difficult humans are social animal and that cause our success define difficult and order for group function effectively needs some sort ethical code this statement not correct isn why don you think explain the laws america stating that you have drive the right hand side the road and pointing out that species conduct serves propogate itself not trying give you your tautology but trying show that such are examples moral systems with goal propogation the species goal natural system morality anybody who lives monagamous relationship not moral after all order ensure propogation the species every man should impregnate many women possible noted earlier lack mating such abstinence homosexuality isn really destructive the system worst neutral every member the species was homosexual this wouldn destructive the survival the species for that matter herds horses only the dominate stallion mates when dies killed whatever the new dominate stallion the only one who mates these seems case your natural system morality trying shoot itself the figurative foot again the mating practices are something reexamined the whole theory needs reexamined kcochran nyx edu tsakc thoughts posts ideas responsibility beer pizza
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality article ursa bear com halat pooh bears jim halat writes article qjd nlv horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes firstly science has its basis values not the other way round you better explain what objective atoms are and how get them from subjective values before any further atoms are not objective they aren even real what scientists call atom nothing more than mathematical model that describes certain physical observable properties our surroundings all which subjective rest deleted you were liberal arts major weren tcha guess you never saw that photo the smallest logo the world ibm made with noble gas atoms krypton xenon forget the specifics atoms trees electrons are all independently observable and verifiable morals aren see the difference tep men who love brown tend warm and deep sensitive the needs and desires their partners sex hour day thing snuggling the fire walking the rain catching snowflakes their tongue real turn lover brown thanx becka
alt.atheism	death penalty was political atheists jbrown batman bmd trw com writes apr batman bmd trw com responding dave first with official nickname fuller the death penalty deterrent dave the person executed will never commit crime again guaranteed that means that effective anti recidivism measure does not say that deters individual from committing capital crime the first place the true question whether the threat death likely actually stop one from murdering commiting treason are there any other capital crimes anywhere the usa that there were death penalty would its introduction deter would criminal from committing her his crime doubt this only the first step even were strong deterrent short being complete deterrent would reject for what about the case the innocent executed and even could eliminate this possibility would reject the death penalty immoral this makes something radical the issue although think there are many opponents captial punishment who agree with but who find the innocent executed the strongest argument make would magically placed charge facilitate state aided suicide for criminals who have life sentences this could replacement for capital punishment those who don want live the rest their lives jail would always have this option scott sauyet ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu writes some society came with good reason for why rape and murder are would consistent with position and hold that was still wrong basis morality not societal norms current legalities basis surprise surprise both the bible and inherent moral abhorrences but what exactly inherently abhorrent and why what you saying effect think some things are repulsive and know whole bunch other people who agree with they should deemed absolutely immoral now and forever period which and itself nice enough some extent agree with you but not agree that things are inherently absolutely immoral they are labeled immoral each for its own good reason and the reason can even theoretically change then can the label yes that vague and the only way know off the top head defend say that all humans are similarly made yes that falls into the trap creation doesn humans are some extent similar because all belong the same species that that species has evolved another story altogether certain extent evolution can even lend credence moral absolutism flavour arguments are that better exhibit trust goodness love respect courage and honesty any society rather than deceipt hatred disrespect cowardness and dishonesty you saying morality what keep society alive and kicking think point but societies are not all alike and neither are their moralities haven been everywhere and seen everyone but according thesis don have since hold that were all created similarly similar identical that makes unfalsifiable thesis just say and both work out what can and punt fellow theists falsifiable through finding someoe who was created different whatever that might the real world disclaimer great young and insane
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article qla afp fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes hope islamic bank something other than bcci which ripped off many small depositors among the muslim community the and elsewhere grow childish propagandist gregg really sorry having pointed out that practice things aren quite the wonderful utopia you folks seem claim them upsets you you have done such thing bbci was example islamically owned and operated bank what will someone bet they weren real islamic owners and operators islamic bank bank which operates according the rules islam regard banking this done explicitly the bank this was not the case with bcci and why did these naive depositors put their life savings into bcci rather than the nasty interest motivated western bank down the street this crap bcci was motivated the same motives other international banks with perhaps emphasis dealing with outlaws and the intelligence services various governments please don try con into thinking that will all work out right next time back childish propaganda again you really ought get life rather than wasting bandwith such empty typing there are thousands islamic banks operating throughout the world which one ever hears about you want talk about corrupted banks can talk about all the people who been robbed american banks gregg
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie article qlb oinn shelley washington edu jimh carson washington edu james hogan writes come senses and accept the all knowing wisdom and power the quran and allah not only that but allah himself drops congratulate wise choice allah rolls few bones and get down then allah gets out the crisco bends over and invites take spin around the block wow realize that maybe allah looking for more commitment than ready for say man got some programming gotta call you thinking over renounce islam what loyalty jim seems you been reading little too much russell hoban lately hemingway said imitators always imitate the bad aspects writing hoban would doubt say the same here gregg
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality article news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes qlapk morrow stanford edu salem pangea stanford edu bruce salem writes article jrde news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes theory creationism theistic view the theory creationism there are many others stated genesis the beginning god created the heavens and the earth wonderful now try alittle imaginative thinking huh imaginative thinking what did that have with what said would have been better said the world has existed forever and never was created and has endless supply energy and there was spontaneous generation life from non life would that make all wise and knowing and imaginative but least would theory warren kurt vonroeschlaub iastate edu iowa state university math department carver hall ames
alt.atheism	you will all hell jsn psuvm psu edu jsn psuvm psu edu writes who cares what the fellow wrote anyway mean came from psuvm how could possibly have been any importance disperse smileys until longer offended disclaimer great young and insane
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie anecdote about islam article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes well one was not allowed leave the domain authority one free leave islam one regards islamic law curse one should consider leaving islam the only way out seems death cheat hillary too john laws local gop reprehensitive extolling traditional family values
alt.atheism	death penalty was political atheists article apr daffy wisc edu mccullou snake wisc edu mark mccullough writes you exagerate the point libel gave only unpopular reasons deliberately you think that should have let iraq absorb kuwait could make the tired old poland comparison but think you heard but the principle aplies never play chamberlain and roll over another country being invaded that only invites further invasions perhaps ought not have supported known genocidist provided him with weapon systems tactical support technology etc made suddam hussein what did bush call him yes ally and freind cheat hillary too john laws local gop reprehensitive extolling traditional family values
alt.atheism	you will all hell article tan psuvm psu edu andrew newell tan psuvm psu edu writes article jsn psuvm psu edu jsn psuvm psu edu writes you blashephemers you will all hell for not believing god prepared for your eternal damnation readers the group how convenient that doesn have real name let start the letters the sysadmin shall his real name jeremy scott noonan vmoper psuvm psu edu should have least some authority least know who email postmast psuvm bitnet respectively rfowles wverity the sys admins the same node are probably better idea than the operator benedikt
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie anecdote about islam article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes deletion certainly central aspect islam show mercy and give those who done wrong even presuming rushdie did violate islamic law and committed crimes this was the basis for posts regarding leniency which seemed not have penetrated benedikt skull you have demanded harsh punishments several crimes repeating offenders have slipped only justification harsh punishment all typically religious doublespeak whenever you have contradictory statements you choose the possibility that suits your current argument disgusting that someone with ideas that would make theodore kkkaldis feel cozy can along under the protection religion gregg tell would you kill idolaters benedikt
alt.atheism	islam and scientific predictions was genocide caused atheism article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes and god almighty who created the night and the day and the sun and the earth all the celetial bodies swim along each its rounded course holy quran hmm this agrees with the ptolemic system the earth the centre with the planets orbitting round copernicus and gallileo were wrong after all you haven read very carefully you look again you will see that doesn say anything about what circling what anyway they are not moving circles nor there any evidence that everything goes around rounded course general sense wishy washy statements are not scientific benedikt
alt.atheism	wholly babble was free moral agency article psilink com robert knowles psilink com writes deletion course there also the book the subgenius and that whole collection writings well does someone know ftp site with benedikt
comp.graphics	call for presentations navy sciviz seminar call for presentations navy scientific visualization and virtual reality seminar tuesday june carderock division naval surface warfare center formerly the david taylor research center bethesda maryland sponsor ness navy engineering software system sponsoring one day navy scientific visualization and virtual reality seminar the purpose the seminar present and exchange information for navy related scientific visualization and virtual reality programs research developments and applications presentations presentations are solicited all aspects navy related scientific visualization and virtual reality all current work works progress and proposed work navy organizations will considered four types presentations are available regular presentation minutes length short presentation minutes length video presentation stand alone videotape author need not attend the seminar scientific visualization virtual reality demonstration byoh accepted presentations will not published any proceedings however viewgraphs and other materials will reproduced for seminar attendees abstracts authors should submit one page abstract and videotape robert lipman naval surface warfare center carderock division code bethesda maryland voice fax mail lipman oasys navy mil authors should include the type presentation their affiliations addresses telephone and fax numbers and addresses multi author papers should designate one point contact deadlines the abstact submission deadline april notification acceptance will sent may materials for reproduction must received june for further information contact robert lipman the above address please distribute widely possible thanks robert lipman internet lipman oasys navy mil david taylor model basin cdnswc lip ocean navy mil computational signatures and voicenet structures group code factsnet bethesda maryland phishnet stockings long legs the sixth sick shiek sixth sheep sick
comp.graphics	graphical representation vector valued functions gnuplot etc make easy plot real valued functions variables but want plot functions whose values are vectors have been doing this plotting arrays arrows complete with arrowheads but before going further thought would ask whether someone has already done the work any pointers thanx advance tom weston usenet weston ucssun sdsu edu department philosophy office san diego state univ home san diego
comp.graphics	dmorph article apr usl edu jna ucs usl edu armstrong jay writes can someone please tell where can ftp dta dmorph dmorf dave morph think what means and dtax dave tga assembler are available the msdos uploads directory the wuarchive they are arjed and bundled with their respective xmemory versions dmorfx exe and dtax exe you can also find version aaplay exe there with which you can view files you create with dta exe dtax exe downloaded the whole bunch last week and have been morphing away the afternoons since the programmes are all bit buggy and definitely not ready spread the masses but they are very well written the interface frustrating first but gets easy once you figure out the tricks have noticed that dmorfx will crash horribly you try morph without using the splines option not sure why since don have the source think was written for anyone else comes with any other hints getting the thing work right tell took several hours the first time just figure out that just used the durned splines then would work jna jna usl edu ryan rap cis ufl edu
comp.graphics	voice input vendor information needed hello looking add voice input capability user interface developing unix workstation would greatly appreciate information anyone would care offer about voice input systems that are easily accessible from the unix environment the names adresses applicable vendors well any experiences you have had with specific systems would very helpful please respond via email will post summary there sufficient interest thanks ken have found several impressive systems for ibm but would like avoid the hassle purchasing and maintaining separate all possible ken hinckley kph virginia edu university virginia neurosurgical visualization laboratory
comp.graphics	where can find sipp recently got file describing library rendering routines called sipp simple polygon processor could anyone tell where can ftp the source code and which the newest version around also never used renderman was wondering renderman like sipp library rendering routines which one uses make program that creates the image thanks joe tham joe tham joth ersys edmonton
comp.graphics	million thousand colors dtek chalmers henrik harmsen writes bits per gives horrible machbanding visible almost any picture bits per colors gives visible machbanding color gradient picture has almost machbanding this color resolution see some small machbanding the smooth color gradient picture but all all there are situiations where you get visible mach banding even bit card you create very smooth color gradient dark green white yellow something and turn the contrast the monitor you will probably see some mach banding while don mean damn henrik attempt helpful here using common misconception that should corrected mach banding will occur for any image not the color quantization you see when you don have enough bits the human eye response transitions edges between intensities the result that colors near the transistion look brighter the brighter side and darker the darker side andre andre yew andrey cco caltech edu
comp.graphics	translating tttddd dxf swiv mac user when comes graphics that what own software and hardware for and recently come across large number tttddd format modeling databases there any software mac unix for translating those something could use like dxf please reply via email thanx eric oehler oehler picard wisc edu
comp.graphics	help renderman language wanted hello everybody you are using pixar renderman scene description language for creating worlds please help using renderman library next but there documentation about nextstep version renderman available can create very complicated scenes and render them using surface shaders but can not bring them life applying shadows and reflections far understand have define environmental and shadows maps produce reflections and shadows but not know how use them any advises simple rib examples will appreciated thanks advance alex kolesov moscow russia talus imaging communications corporation mail alex talus msk next mail accepted
comp.graphics	more gray levels out the screen article tut lehtori tut kouhia juhana writes article apr kpc com hollasch kpc com steve hollasch writes think you proposal would work get extra one maybe two extra bits color resolution however you had display that chould only zero full intensity for each primary don think you get great equivalent bit photographs have not suggested wrote about problems and the problem were clearly visible with bit images not mention bit images description experiment deleted the bit images are viewed quickly and sync with screen then intensities could better than have dunno more deleted any case getting black color with slow machines problem could try our bit screens but don know how render pixels with constant time recall our double buffer has other image color and one that doesn help either maybe should dump photos screen with low level code how few years ago friend and took some grey level photos from bit mac plus screen using this method displaying all levels synchronized the display took about seconds after experimenting with different aperture settings and screen brightnesses found range that worked well giving respectable contrast the quality the images was pretty good there were visible contrast bands minimize the exposure time the display program built different bit frames the first contained dot only for pixels that had value the second only for pixels that had value etc these frames were stored using sparse data structure that was very fast onto the screen sequence creating these frames sometimes took minutes that old mac but the camera shutter was closed during that time anyway and yes wrote directly the screen memory mea culpa our biggest problem was that small images were displayed the top left corner the screen instead the center took extra week have the film developed and printed because the processors took the trouble manually move the all images into the center the print who have guessed regards jon rowlands
comp.graphics	more gray levels out the screen article btg csc com rowlands com jon rowlands writes few years ago friend and took some grey level photos from bit mac plus screen using this method displaying all levels synchronized the display took about seconds why didn you create grey level images and display them for time slices this requires the same total exposure time and the same precision timing but drastically reduces the image preparation time kenneth sloan computer and information sciences sloan cis uab edu university alabama birmingham campbell hall uab station fax birmingham
comp.graphics	rumours about article zola esd sgi com erik westworld esd sgi com erik fortune writes better than cdi much better than cdi course not agree does have more horsepower horsepower not the only measurement for better does not have full motion full screen video yet does have rom starting the quarter the first multiplayer will manufactured panasonic and will available late this year number other manufacturers are reported have compatible boxes the works which other manufacturers shall see about the date all this information third hand and worth what you paid for this second hand but still hard look the future lex van sonderen lex aimla com philips interactive media
comp.graphics	visuallib graphics for windows currently looking for graphics library that runs windows are there any such libraries out there other than visuallib must run vga and should not require any other add graphics cards for visuallib will run with metaware high compiler any email contact for the author visuallib any help would much appreciated thanks chua teck joo information technology institute email teckjoo iti gov science park drive phone singapore fax
comp.graphics	graphics library package all looking for recommandation good royalty free graphics library package for and program this mainly use write children games and education software heard someone mentioned genus and also gfx are they any good please pardon question sounds little strange asking this question for friend thanks advance caroline tsang cst garfield catt ncsu edu
comp.graphics	rumours about article eyz optimla aimla com lex optimla aimla com lex van sonderen writes article zola esd sgi com erik westworld esd sgi com erik fortune writes better than cdi much better than cdi course not agree does have more horsepower horsepower not the only measurement for better does not have full motion full screen video yet does have rom starting the quarter the first multiplayer will manufactured panasonic and will available late this year number other manufacturers are reported have compatible boxes the works which other manufacturers shall see about the date marketing rep recently offered phillips marketing rep bet that would have boxes the market schedule the phillips rep declined the bet probably because knew that players are already pre production manufacturing runs months before the commercial release date the time commercial release there will other manufacturers players announced and possibly already tooling production chip sets will full production the number software companies designing titles for the box will over how know this was bar down the road from headquarters last week some folks were bullshitting little too loudly about company business all this information third hand and worth what you paid for this second hand but still hard look the future lex van sonderen lex aimla com philips interactive media what impartial source
comp.graphics	graphics library package 
comp.graphics	wanted sird alogorythmn interested writing program generate sird picture you know the stereogram where you cross your eyes and the picture becomes does anyone have one know where can get one please mail steveq sndcrft dialix with any replies many thanks for your help steve
comp.graphics	any graphics packages available for aix does anybody know there are any good graphics packages available for ibm aix looking for something like dec gks hewlett packards starbase both which have reasonably good support for different output devices like plotters terminals etc have tried also xgks from distribution and ibm implementation phigs both them work but require more output devices than just windows our salesman ibm was not very familiar with graphics and not expecting for any good solutions from there ari ari suutari ari carel carelcomp lappeenranta finland
comp.graphics	hardcopy colored window mars ixos martin stein writes use xwd xpr from the dist and various programs the ppm tools print hardcopies colored windows problem don like xpr gives least the version does louzy output the hardcopy looks very grainy instead use pnmtops this takes full advantage postscript and lets the printer the dirty job dithering graylevel image black and white dots you have postscript printer try xwdtopnm xwdfile convert ppm ppmtopgm graylevel for smaller file print pnmtops noturn postscript lpr print pnmtops has several neat options but use them with care you want your image wide use pnmtops noturn scale width noturn prevents the image from being rotated wider than high width specifies the paper width not the image width see below scale used because the image small may fit within width less than and will thus printed smaller than wide you first scale lot will certainly not fit and will scaled down pnmtops automatically fit the specified paper width short pnmtops will scale image down fit the paper size but will not blow automatically hope this helps marcel marcel wijkstra aio wijkstra fwi uva faculty mathematics and computer science university amsterdam the netherlands life stinks fortunately got cold
comp.graphics	more gray levels out the screen article apr cis uab edu sloan cis uab edu kenneth sloan writes why didn you create grey level images and display them for time slices grey level images you mean items bit images does work but doesn work you have more than bit your screen and the screen intensity non linear with bit per pixel there could timing this gives levels but they are linear screen intensity linear with works but have find the best compinations there levels but choises best must chosen different compinations for the same level varies bit but the levels keeps their order readers should verify what wrote juhana kouhia
comp.graphics	looking for ctds can find ctds connect the dots smoother france commercial program happily pay whatever may cost not take litterally please help have lots pov sources texture images and animations though you are looking for something just tell
comp.graphics	pov previewer actually trying write something like this but encounter some problems amongst them drawing wireframe view quadric quartic requires that you have the explicit equation the quadric quartic functions some parameters how convert the implicit equation used pov explicit one mathematically always possible don have enough math find out myself has anybody heard about useful books the subject
comp.graphics	real time graphics article taurus nps navy mil stockel oahu nps navy mil jim stockel writes will writing data acquisition program collect data from variety sources including and external and would like able display the data near realtime done this type thing and other machines but unaware any graphics package that could help with this unix machine does anyone have any ideas commercial free packages that might suit needs would really appreciate any input sure this has been done many times before for commerical package try wave from precision visuals for free package try khoros from university new mexico ftp from ptrg eece unm edu login anonyomus ftp with valid email address the password pub khoros release that will get you the right place david
comp.graphics	bgi drivers for svga require bgi drivers for super vga displays and super xvga displays does anyone know where could obtain the relevant drivers ftp sites regards simon crowe
comp.graphics	vesa the speedstar kjb mgl uvesa zip this universal vesa driver supports most video boards chipsets include the speedstar and bit color terry tried speedstar and and works not with all software for instance doesn work all with animator pro from autodesk can detect any svga modes when running univesa this really problem need vesa driver for both pro and some color stuff just out curiosity are you using the latest version versions previous this did not fill all the capabilities bits and other information correctly had problems with lot software until got this version don think the author got around posting announcementof least missed but was available the directory indicated sure did use version works fine with most software but not with animator pro and that one quite important pretty useless program without that thing working imho hope the author can fix that daniel daniel falk don quote comments ebenezum the great wizard fad tekn fad hjds also known the mega famous musician jkpg sweeeeeden leinad the yellow ones
comp.graphics	none set bear with new this game but could anyone explain exactly what dmorf does does simply fade one bitmap into another does shape one bitma into another please excuse ignorance not even sure posted thi message correctly
comp.graphics	help wanted for dmorf please bear with new this game apologize unreservedly hav posted another message earlier mistake but digress could anyone out ere please explain exactly what dmorf does dtax exe does simply fade one bitmap into another does reshape one bitmap into another excuse ignor ance
comp.graphics	test sorry 
comp.graphics	rumours about they need hit software product encourage software sales the product the pong pacman visicalc dbase pagemaker multi media there are some multi media and digital television products out there already albeit not capable but are there compelling reasons buy such yet perhaps someone this news group will write that hit software
comp.graphics	technical help sought immediate need for details various graphics compression techniques you know where could obtain descriptions algo rithms public domain source codes for such formats jpeg gif and fractals would immensely grateful you could share the info with this for project contemplating doing thanks advance please reply via mail possible hbj
comp.graphics	surface normal orientations some rendering programs require that all surface normals point the same direction closed cube all normals point outwards you can use the points the faces determine the direction the normal making sure that all points are either clockwise counter clockwise order how you about orienting all normals the same direction given set points edges and faces say that you had cube with all faces that have their normals facing outwards except for one face what the best way realize that face flipped and should have points ordered thought had good way telling this but then realized that the algorithm had would only tell you you had points clockwise order for polygon like something for data any hints tips references would appreciated steve where humor concerned there are standards one can say what good bad although you can sure that everyone will john kenneth galbraith these opinions are own
comp.graphics	graphics library package wgt the wordup graphics toolkit designed yours truly and programmer and brother chris egerter turbo borland graphics library for programming vga are currently producing shareware but few years may commercial product excuse typos there backspace this terminal features include loading and saving bit images called blocks from herein flipping resizing and warping blocks loading and saving palette fading several memory once graphics primitives such line circle bar rectangle region fill not the usually useless floodfill sprites animated bitmaps onscreen once joystick mouse support support voc and cmf tile based game creation using pixel tiles create tile map game world like duke nuke number sprites increased professional sprite creator utility and map maker routines simplify scrolling games using maps etc fli playing routines sprites can animated over the fli while playing pcx support soon gif ems xms coming soon well leave mail barry egerter egerter obelix gaul csd uwo files available use mget wgt zip simtel and mirrors msdos turbo nic funet pub msdos games programming some sites may not have recent files contact for info regarding the date information
comp.graphics	signature image database contact signaware corp original memo bcc vincent wall from imaging club subject signature verification date sent sci image processing from yyqi ece arizona edu yingyong subject signature image database organization arizona electrical and computer engineering all could someone tell there database handwriting signature images available for evaluating signature verification systems thanks
comp.graphics	surface normal orientations article apr cis uab edu sloan cis uab edu kenneth sloan writes brilliant algorithm not seriously correct sign change the flaw obvious and will therefore not shown sorry about that kenneth sloan computer and information sciences sloan cis uab edu university alabama birmingham campbell hall uab station fax birmingham
comp.graphics	genoa blitz hits sorry but this genoa card does nothing that the ati ultra plus can plus the ati costs street price
comp.graphics	surface normal orientations article pscti aqe travis csd harris com srp travis csd harris com stephen pietrowicz writes how you about orienting all normals the same direction given set points edges and faces look for edge inconsistencies consider two vertices and which are connected least one edge edge then should not appear both and appear edges then the surface flips when you travel across that edge this bad assuming warning warning warning that you have otherwise acceptable surface you can pick edge any edge and traverse the surface enforcing consistency with that edge pick edge and mark for each face containing this edge more than oops make sure that all edges are consistent the face should flip those which are wrong mark all the edges and add them queue check for duplicates and especially inconsistencies don let the queue have both and remove edge from the queue and marked edge discovered inconsistent then you lose step finds more than one face sharing particular edge then you lose otherwise when done all the edges will consistent which means that all the surface normals will either point out deciding which way out left exercise kenneth sloan computer and information sciences sloan cis uab edu university alabama birmingham campbell hall uab station fax birmingham
comp.graphics	surface normal orientations pscti aqe travis csd harris com srp travis csd harris com stephen pietrowicz writes how you about orienting all normals the same direction given set points edges and faces this algorithm works well for algorithm attempt find outward facing normals first mark all faces unknown then create edge dictionary that allows you find all the faces sharing given edge where edge two integers representing the two shared vertices pick arbitrary face and mark counter clockwise using the edge dictionary orient all surrounding faces based the orientation this face and recurse for all surrounding faces consistently orienting the entire surface find the average the vertices this surface using that point calculate volume measurement taking into account the face orientation the volume turns out positive assume the faces are oriented correctly negative reverse their orientations mark them clockwise any faces are still unknown after this choose another face and through the algorithm again the end faces marked clockwise must have their indices reversed before facet normals are found note you are running silicon graphics machines and buy the iris inventor toolkit developers package you have the source this algorithm see usr src inventor tools ivnorm you not sorry can give out the source and even could relies heavily inventor gavin gavin sgi com
comp.graphics	million thousand colors andrey cco caltech edu andre yew writes dtek chalmers henrik harmsen writes bits per gives horrible machbanding visible almost any picture bits per colors gives visible machbanding color gradient picture has almost machbanding this color resolution see some small machbanding the smooth color gradient picture but all all there are situiations where you get visible mach banding even bit card you create very smooth color gradient dark green white yellow something and turn the contrast the monitor you will probably see some mach banding while don mean damn henrik attempt helpful here using common misconception that should corrected mach banding will occur for any image not the color quantization you see when you don have enough bits the human eye response transitions edges between intensities the result that colors near the transistion look brighter the brighter side and darker the darker side andre yeah course the term mach banding was not the correct one should been color quantization effect although bad color quantization effect could result some visible mach bands picture that was smooth before was quantizised henrik harmsen internet dtek chalmers chalmers university technology sweden haven lost mind backed tape somewhere
comp.graphics	real time graphics article apr falcon aamrl wpafb mil dsnyder falcon aamrl wpafb mil writes article taurus nps navy mil stockel oahu nps navy mil jim stockel writes opps typed the phone numbers wrong here are the correct numbers for commerical package try wave from precision visuals for free package try khoros from university new mexico ftp from ptrg eece unm edu login anonyomus ftp with valid email address the password pub khoros release
comp.graphics	iges viewer for dos windows anybody know iges viewer for dos windows need able display computervision iges files running windows thanks advance brian safford email bsaffo cad gmeds com electronic data systems phone note the views and opinions expressed herein are mine and not reflect those electronic data systems corp
comp.graphics	computer graphics vcr help friend and have class project which are trying make computer animated movie sorts with the disney animation and would like put what have vcr this possible easy and relatively cheap how both have ibm compatibles but are relatively clueless with computers you could help please thanx brant ritter moshing cosmic cesspool physical delight kiedas rhcp
comp.graphics	stereoscopic imaging interested any information stereoscopic imaging sun workstation for the most part need know there any hardware available interface the system and whether the refresh rates are sufficient produce quality image representations any information about the subject would greatly appreciated thanks
comp.graphics	fractals what good are they article pdxgate uucp idr rigel pdx edu ian romanick writes one thing small change initial conditions can cause huge change final conditions there are certain things about the way the plate tektoniks and volcanic activity effect land scape that while not entirely random unpredictable this also true with fractals one could also conclude that you could model this fractally yeah and also true most long complicated sequences events calculations big computer programs general don argue that you can get similar and maybe useful results from fractals just question whether you should the fractal fiends seem saying that any part system that can model should replaced with random number generator that has been useful for instance making data more palatable human perception for torture testing the rest the system but don think has much with fractals and certainly would rather that the model improved more explicable manner guess just haven seen all these earth shaking fractal models that explain and correlate the universe actually exists really hope but not holding self similar breath there one other thing that fractals are good for fractal image compression huh believe when see been chasing fractal compression for few years and still don believe great how come don see competing with jpeg cause can wager actually have wagered quit trying make fractal compression work and was trying because don think reasonable alternative other techniques neat though reiterate disbelief that everything fractal that why don think fractal compression widely explained practical know barnsley and sloan have some tricks their sleeves that make their demos work but don see anyone using real product been six years since iterated systems was formed right there are always going questions until there product out there sloan replies the company plans ship its first encoding devices the summer says march iterated systems will have the other half the system the decoders scientific american march page allen don even get started
comp.graphics	complex with real and imaginary parts bio medical images are complex bio medical images available anywhere the net for experimentation complex mean that every sampled data point has magnitude and phase information both thanks for any pointers vishwa
comp.graphics	mpeg for dos does anyone know where can ftp mpeg for dos from thanks for any help advance email preferred but posting fine scott lord soth knight email lordsoth uiuc the black rose next sas sumter cso uiuc edu have clue what want say here won say anything
comp.graphics	help need complete list all the polygons that there are order summarize the net only had been compiled with the option
comp.graphics	help colors display you probably have set the palette before you try drawing the new colours use the bios interrupt calls set the values the range from for most cards for particular palette colour the range from for colour modes then you should able draw pixels those palette values and the result should you might have bit colourmap compressing you have more than unique rgb triplets for colour mode geoff thomas geoffrey cosc canterbury computer science dept university canterbury private bag christchurch oook new zealand
comp.graphics	rumours about stgprao unocal com richard ottolini writes they need hit software product encourage software sales the product the pong pacman visicalc dbase pagemaker multi media there are some multi media and digital television products out there already albeit not capable but are there compelling reasons buy such yet perhaps someone this news group will write that hit software just had the good fortune hired electronic arts senior computer graphics artist the vancouver canada office the timing has lot with the which putting lot resources into not know any titles developed yet but will happy post things develop start there may markus tessmann
comp.graphics	quicktime movie available article johnsh mustang stu rpi edu wrote used the recently released macintosh application mpeg quicktime convert the excellent mpeg canyon mpg into quicktime movie while anyone who would want this movie perfectly able convert themselves thought let the net know that glad mail copies mine out the movie conversion took close six hours poor little iicx other words unless you got quadra you might not want tie your machine converting this file the movie fast fly through fractal generated canyon landscape the movie seconds long and uses the compact video compressor quicktime the movie looks okay bit displays and looks absolutely awesome and bit displays happy mail this movie the first people who ask for the only caveat you need able receive nine megabyte mail message the movie was stuff down seven megs but binhex ruined that party more then people want this movie then just more evidence that the net needs dedicated quicktime ftp archive site mon someone gotta have spare drive out there okay received whole lot requests for the movie for simplicity sake can mail out any more than already received edt tuesday maybe pop site sooner later hugh johnson johnsh rpi edu rensselaer polytechnic institute welcome macintosh troy new york usa
comp.graphics	msc code view save images dear binary newsers looking for quick microsoft code for image decoding from file for vga viewing and saving images from gif tiff pcx jpeg format have scoured the internet but its like trying find seuss spell checker tsr must out there and there need reinvent the wheel thanx advance the internet like black hole
comp.graphics	autocad tiff can done hello realize that this might faq but have ask since don get change read this newsgroup very often anyways for senior project need convert autocad file tiff file please don need anyone telling that the autocad file vector file and the tiff bit map since have heard that about times already would just like know anyone knows how this least point the right direction any help greatly appreciated matt georgy
comp.graphics	gamma law correction digitizing ntsc signal and displaying video monitor known that the display response tubes non linear and sometimes said follow gamma law not certain these non linearities are gamma corrected before encoding ntsc signals the display supposed correct this also grey levels for example are coded program these intensity levels appear with linear brightness monitor other words does monitor display circuitry correct for gamma errrors your response much appreciated amjad amjad soomro ccs computer science center maryland college park email amjad wam umd edu
comp.graphics	mpeg for windows mono needed hello and thank you for reading this request have mpeg viewer for windows and did not run because was running monochrome monitor need the mono driver for mpeg play please post the location the file better yet mail mlee eng sdsu edu
comp.graphics	thining algorithm article innmi shelley washington edu kshin stein washington edu kevin shin writes trying obtain program preprocess handwriting characters like thining algorithm graph alogrithm anyone know where can obtain those usually use algorithms for graphics and image processing theodosios pavlidis but other people here got them same idea and now copies the libraries have been stolen another reference digital image processing gonzalez and wintz wood which widely available but little expensive here just checked today
comp.graphics	tiff philosophical significance article apr galki toppoint ulrich galki toppoint writes according the tiff specification the tiff version number bytes has been chosen for its deep philosophical significance last week read the hitchhikers guide the galaxy this actually how they picked the number sure and not amused every time read that part the tiff spec infuriates and none too happy about the complexity the spec anyway because think their arbitrary but carefully chosen number neither additionally find their choice bytes begin file with meaningless themselves why not just use the letters tiff and don think they should have bothered support both word orders either and found that many tiff readers actually don
comp.graphics	vga graphics mode gchen essex ecn uoknor edu writes article doh constellation ecn uoknor edu greetings does anybody know possible set vga graphics mode instead any info appreciated some vesa bios support this mode and any vga should able support this colors since only requires bytes vesa tsr supports this the only vesa mode card can support due restrictions paradise not responsible for anything say just opinion robert kyanko rob rjck uucp
comp.graphics	weitek abraxis iastate edu writes article abraxis class iastate edu anyone know about the weitek graphics chip micron selling with their systems they rank them winmarks any info would help thanks supposedly high performance chip based upon workstation graphics accelerators quite fast have but usual with new boards chips the drivers are buggy for windows far winmarks depends upon the version think got winmarks with version yielded the number also benchmarked this with wintach over from memory well far the low level stuff goes looks pretty nice got this quadrilateral fill command that requires just the four points very fast but beware buggy drivers and otherwise non windows support not responsible for anything say just opinion robert kyanko rob rjck uucp
comp.graphics	delaunay triangulation article lsk inn caspian usc edu zyeh caspian usc edu zhenghao yeh writes does anybody know what delaunay triangulation there any reference useful for creating objects yes what the advantage used create tin triangulated irregular network which basically bunch triangles which form surface over group points what special about that the triangles formed are the most equalateral possible check out proceedings autocarto where sorry don have specific reference describing the process michael
comp.graphics	graphic formats writing some utilies convert regis and tektonic esacpe sequences into some useful formats would rather not have goto bitmap format can convert them window meta files easily enough but would rather convert them corel draw cdr power point ppt files microsoft would not give the format was wondering anybody out there knows the formats for these two applications
comp.graphics	nice gif code there thing called xgif xgif the grandfather
comp.graphics	rumours about archer archer bad cop surly archer elysium esd sgi com archer how about interactive sex with madonna sexium for short lars lars fischer fischer iesd auc takes uncommon mind think dept aalborg univ denmark these things calvin
comp.graphics	forms for curses note the followup header steelem rintintin colorado edu steele mark writes there collection forms routines that can used with curses where located svr amiga unix box got lform lmenu and lpanel for use with the curses library guess what they provide unix press prentice hall has programmer guide for these tools referred the fmli forms mgmt language interface and eti extended terminal interface now edition isbn paraphrased from the outside back cover fmli high level programming tool for creating menus forms and text frames eti set screen management library subroutines that promote fast development application programs for window panel menu and form manipulation the fmli shell package which reads ascii text files and produces screen displays for data entry and presentation consists shell like environment the fmli program and database files section the unix press manual the eti are subroutines part the manual section provide support for multi window capability ordinary ascii terminal with controls built top the curses library thanks mark steele steelem rintintin colorado edu frank crash edwards edwards edwards consulting voice crash ckctpa myrddin sybus com but please data don ask uunet route sloooow there will times life when everyone you meet smiles and pats you the back and tells you how great you are hold your wallet
comp.graphics	trying view pov files merkelbd sage purdue edu brian merkel writes article apr ornl gov ednobles sacam oren ortn edu edward nobles writes been trying view tga files created povray have the diamond speedstar video board not the far can convert them jpeg using cjpeg and view them with cview but that only displays bit color looking for some way convert and view them bit have univesa uvesa zip and the dvpeg viewer but don get anything perhaps not setting univesa properly anyone has ideas about this please feel free enlighten just want see the darn things real color image alchemy aka alchemy will view the tga files that pov outputs and just about any other format you can think will also convert between all these shareware probably available ftp somwhere out there netland yep alchemy works fine tseng dac but think remember reading that only displays bit course that still colors which nothing sneeze use the flag neal miller why not mad millernw craft camp clarkson edu clarkson university ford prefect dark craft camp clarkson edu
comp.graphics	hot new software there new product for the ibm ers out there called imagine and just started shipping yesterday can personally attest that will blow the doors off studio made impulse and its version for the ibm can morphing your standard key framming animation raytracer reflections shadows and can apply special objects like ripple explode bounce things that nature also has algorithmic texture maps and your standard brushmapping also you can have animated brushmaps live video mapped the objs also animated backdrops live video backgrounds also animted reflections maps you get the idea will run for about retail think dont let the low price fool you this product can all when comes animation and renderering also does anyone here know how get the imagine mailing list please mail you post here the number for impulse trb msstate edu
comp.graphics	hot new software previous article trb msstate edu tony boutwell says there new product for the ibm ers out there called imagine and just started shipping yesterday can personally attest that will blow the doors off studio made impulse and its well don know about its competing with studio but pretty powerful allright also does anyone here know how get the imagine mailing list please mail you post here yes send mail imagine request email paramax com with header something like subscribe actually work the faq frequently asked questions should have the new version out next week but you want could mail you the previous one details what the list etc well answering basic questions about imagine hope this helps michael comet software engineer graphics artist cwru mbc cwru edu silence those who oppose the freedom speech
comp.graphics	vga graphics mode article snx rjck uucp rob rjck uucp robert kyanko writes gchen essex ecn uoknor edu writes article doh constellation ecn uoknor edu greetings does anybody know possible set vga graphics mode instead any info appreciated some vesa bios support this mode and any vga should able support this colors since only requires bytes vesa tsr supports this the only vesa mode card can support due restrictions paradise not responsible for anything say just opinion robert kyanko rob rjck uucp ahh possibly you punched the wrong numbers your calculator color modes take byte per pixel time which exact only takes but don think bios mode wouldn bet that all vga cards can that either vga card has bet can both and that definition svga though not very high svga
comp.graphics	tin files coutours working project that needs create contour lines from random data points the work that have done far tells that need look into triangulated irregular networks tin the delauney criiterion and the krige method does anyone have any suggestions for references programs and hopefully source code for creating contours any help with this any surface modeling would greatly appreciated can reached the addresses below paul conway pvconway copper denver colorado edu pvconway cudnvr denver colorado edu
comp.graphics	apr toronto siggraph event toronto siggraph what chance art graphics and animation the indigo ken evans imagicians artware inc when tuesday april where the mcluhan centre for culture and technology university toronto queen park crescent toronto who members and non members alike non members encouraged become members abstract imagicians artware inc entering into early beta site testing silicon graphics workstations new abstract artwork and animation package called chance art the package will described and demonstrated and some the technical issues will discussed marketing plans will outlined the talk will also present some the technical and business problems increasingly confronting small startup software companies today and some the opportunities this situation presents time after the event will allocated for hands demonstrations interested parties silicon graphics graciously providing indigo for this event myck kupka will also demonstrating his computerized interactive reflective stereoscope which installed upstairs the mcluhan centre feel free drop for demonstration before after the event btw sure sing happy birthday myck the names nominees for our siggraph executive offices will announced this meeting nominations will still open until the election our may event call myck kupka fax directions the mcluhan coachhouse the east side queen park crescent just north wellesley south joseph behind east queen park crescent which the centre for mediaeval studies for information toronto siggraph membership contact michael mccool via internet mccool dgp utoronto voice fax
comp.graphics	delaunay triangulation zyeh caspian usc edu zhenghao yeh writes does anybody know what delaunay triangulation there any reference the delaunay triangulation the geometrical dual the voronoi tessellation and both constructions are derived from natural neighbor order aurenhammer voronoi diagrams survey fundamental geometric data structure acm computing surveys okabe boots and sugihara spatial tessellations concepts and applications voronoi diagrams wiley sons new york isbn watson computing the dimensional delaunay tessellation with application voronoi polytopes the computer watson natural neighbour sorting the australian computer dave watson internet watson maths uwa edu department mathematics the university western australia tel nedlands australia fax
comp.graphics	ansi aiim standard image file format wing the suggestion stu lynne have posted the image file format executable and source code alt sources herman silbiger
comp.graphics	trying view pov files article apr ornl gov ednobles sacam oren ortn edu edward nobles writes been trying view tga files created povray have the diamond speedstar video board not the far can convert them jpeg using cjpeg and view them with cview but that only displays bit color looking for some way convert and view them bit just want see the darn things real color thanks jim nobles the best program seen for viewing such files vpic you want version later current allows you view and bit modes really quite nice now for return question you run windows what are the dates your drivers the newest ones can find are from around problem they conflict with star trek after dark and other things well willing bet that the drivers and not the programs anyone out there have info newer not drivers for windows thanks justin
comp.graphics	looking for circle algorithm faster than bresenhams article apr nwnexus com mpdillon halcyon com michael dillon writes have algorithm similar bresenhams line drawing algorithm that draws line stepping along the minor axis and drawing slices like aaaa bbbb cccc the following diagram aaaa bbbb cccc yes that known bresenhams run length slice algorithm for incremental lines see fundamental algorithms for computer graphics springer verlag berlin heidelberg have tried extrapolate this circles but can figure out how determine the length the slices any ideas hmm don think can help you with this but you might take look the following double step incremental generation lines and circles and rokne computer graphics and image processing vol mar double step generation ellipses and rokne ieee computer graphics applications may graeme gill
comp.graphics	mail michael abrash 
comp.graphics	fonts pov have seen several ray traced scenes from mtv was rayshade with stroked fonts appearing objects the image the fonts chars had color depth and even textures associated with them now was wondering possible the same pov thanks noel
comp.graphics	polygon reduction for marching cubes dear reader searching for implementation polygon reduction algorithm for marching cubes surfaces think the best one the reduction algorithm from schroeder siggraph there any implementation this algorithm would very nice you could leave also looking for fast connectivity test for marching cubes surfaces any help hints will very useful thanks lot ooo ooo erwin keeve adress peter welter platz cologne germany dept computergraphics phone computeranimation fax academy media arts cologne email keeve khm uni koeln
comp.graphics	dmpeg zip info another dos mpeg decoder player posted have posted dos mpeg decoder player alt binaries pictures utilities here short description and some technical information taken from the accompanying documentation dmpeg public domain mpeg decoder stefan eckart features dmpeg dmplay another mpeg decoder player for the decodes nearly the full mpeg video standard frames frame size least supported saves decoded sequence bit raw file for later display optional screen display during decoding requires vga several dithering options ordered dither floyd steinberg grayscale color space selection runs under dos ram windows required very compact small code small data models bit arithmetic real time display the raw file separate player for vga and many super vgas technical information the player rather straightforward implementation the mpeg spec the idct based the chen wang multiplication algorithm not quite the optimum know blocks with not more than eight non zero coefficients use non separated direct multiply accumulate idct sounds great doesn which turned out faster than fast algorithm this quite common case dithering pretty standard main difference the berkeley decoder except for the fewer number supported algorithms the use instead colors the default option use restricted color space and the implementation color saturation dominant ordered dither this leads significantly superior quality the dithered image claim judge yourself restricted color space means that the and components are clipped instead and the display color space points are distributed over this restricted space since the distance between color space points thus reduced factor two the color resolution doubled the expense not being able represent fully saturated colors saturation dominant ordered dither method which color lying somewhere between the points the display color space approximated primarily alternating between two points constant hue instead constant saturation this yields subjectivly better quality due the lower sensitivity the human viewing system saturation changes than hue changes the same reasoning used the pal standard improve ntsc the improvement particularly visible dark brown redish areas stefan eckart stefan lis technik muenchen
comp.graphics	point within polygon looking for algorithm determine given point bound polygon does anyone have any such code reference book containing information the subject regards simon
comp.graphics	pov reboots after memory upgrade until last week have been running povray under dos without any major problems over easter increased the memory from meg meg and found that povray reboots the system every time under dos had running povray dos window when running win the same system and now works fine even lot slower would like back using povray directly under dos anyone any ideas john john heaton nrs central administrator mcc network unit the university oxford road manchester phone fax packet yyh yyh pwy gbr
comp.graphics	good shareware paint and animation software for sgi does anyone know any good shareware animation paint software for sgi machine exhausted everyplace the net can find and still don hava nice piece software thanks alot chad knock knock chad cipiti who there cleveland freenet edu cipiti bobcat ent ohiou edu might heisenberg chad voxel zool ohiou edu
comp.graphics	processing stereo images interested find out what involved processing pairs stereo photographs have black and white photos and would like obtain surface contours prefer the processing sgi but would interested hearing what software hardware used for this type image processing please email and post comp sys sgi graphics your responses thanks dane hendrix email dane wizard navy mil dtmb headquarters carderock div hendrix oasys navy mil naval surface warfare center hendrix nas nasa gov code bethesda phone
comp.graphics	weitek robert kyanko rob rjck uucp wrote abraxis iastate edu writes article abraxis class iastate edu anyone know about the weitek graphics chip far the low level stuff goes looks pretty nice got this quadrilateral fill command that requires just the four points you have weitek address phone number like get some information about this chip joe green harris corporation jgreen csd harris com computer systems division the only thing that really scares person with sense humor jonathan winters
comp.graphics	sun and bit ascii graphics would like know anyone has had any luck using the upper ascii characters sun station trying convert fortran program run sun when write character buffers the sun which contain char char char etc get characters the screen but they are not the characters the standard ascii tables any ideas help will appreciated
comp.graphics	looking for circle algorithm faster than bresenhams wed apr gmt graeme labtam labtam graeme gill said graeme yes that known bresenhams run length slice algorithm for graeme incremental lines see fundamental algorithms for computer graphics graeme springer verlag berlin heidelberg have tried extrapolate this circles but can figure out how determine the length the slices any ideas graeme hmm don think can help you with this but you might graeme take look the following graeme double step incremental generation lines and circles graeme and rokne computer graphics and image processing graeme vol mar graeme double step generation ellipses and rokne graeme ieee computer graphics applications may another paper you might want consider article fungdraw title run length slice line drawing algorithm without division operations author khun yee fung and tina nicholl and dewdney journal computer graphics forum year volume number pages khun yee khun yee fung clipper csd uwo department computer science middlesex college university western ontario london ontario canada tel fax
comp.graphics	geometry package looking for package which takes inputs set geometric objects defined unions convex polytopes specified some manner say inequalities and equalities and determines some reasonable form things like intersections unions etc etc does anyone know where can find such thing dan naiman department mathematical sciences johns hopkins university
comp.graphics	point within polygon article apr bull scrowe hemel bull simon crowe writes looking for algorithm determine given point bound polygon does anyone have any such code reference book containing information the subject see the article efficient ray polygon intersection graphics gems isbn the second step intersecting the polygon does what you want there sample code the book spl steve lamont sciviguy spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource san diego jolla they are not bolsheviks just bullshitviks yevgeny yevtechenko again meeting
comp.graphics	distance between two bezier curves pes hutcs hut pekka siltanen writes suppose two cubic bezier curves control points and which have equal first and last control points how get upper bound for distance between these curves which distance the distance between one point the first curve and point the other curve with same parameter any references appreciated thanks anvance pekka siltanen
comp.graphics	point within polygon scrowe hemel bull simon crowe writes looking for algorithm determine given point bound polygon does anyone have any such code reference book containing information the subject well been while since this was discussed take the liberty reprinting without permission sue eric haines reprint the very interesting discussion this topic jonas snip snip give man fish and eat one day give man fishing rod and laze around fishing and never anything with that mind reprint without permission sue relevant information posted some years ago this very problem note the early use postscript technology predating many this year papers listed the april siggraph program announcement posted here few days ago eric intersection between line and polygon undecidable dave baraff tom duff from deb charisma graphics cornell edu newsgroups comp graphics keywords jordan curve separation ursyhon metrization theorem organization program computer graphics article ncsmith ndsuvax uucp timothy lyle smith writes need find formula algorithm determine line intersects polygon would prefer method that would this little time possible need this for use forward raytracing program think that this very difficult problem start with lines and polygons are semi algebraic sets which both contain uncountable number points here are few off the cuff ideas first need check the line and the polygon are separated now the jordan curve separation theorem says that the polygon divides the plane into exactly two open and thus non compact regions thus the line lies completely inside the polygon the line lies completely outside the polygon possibly but this will rarely happen the line intersects the polyon now the phrasing this question says line intersects polygon this decision problem one possibility the decision model approach reduce the question some other well known problem and then try solve answer gives answer the original decision problem recent years many geometric problems have been successfully modeled new language called postscript see postscript language adobe systems incorporated isbn given line and polygon can write postscript program that draws the line and the polygon and then outputs the answer output mean the program executes command called showpage which actually prints page paper containing the line and the polygon quick examination the paper provides answer the reduced problem and thus the original problem there are two small problems with this approach there infinite number ways encode and into the reduced problem will forced invoke the axiom choice equivalently zorn lemma but the use the axiom choice not regarded very serious light these days more importantly the question arises whether not the postscript program will actually output piece paper other words will halt now postscript expressive enough encode everything that turing machine might thus the halting problem for postscript undecidable quite possible that the original problem will turn out undecidable won even begin into other difficulties such aliasing finite precision and running out ink paper both couple references might principia mathematica newton cambridge university press cambridge england sorry don have isbn for this introduction automata theory languages and computation hopcroft and ulman the programming language kernighan and ritchie tale two cities dickens from alice uucp tom duff summary overkill organization bell laboratories murray hill the situation not nearly bleak baraff suggests should know better hung around the labs for long enough the well known dobbin dullman reduction see dullman dobbin comp obfusc lemma line polygon intersection can reduced hamiltonian circuit without the use grobner bases lpi coin acronym probably only complete besides turing completeness will longer problem once our cray delivered since will able complete infinite loop milliseconds with scatter gather from deb svax cornell edu david baraff well sure its worse than complete but that only you restrict yourself the case where the line satisfies lipschitz condition its second derivative think there siggraph paper from caltech that deals with this email jonas isy liu dept electrical engineering voice university linkoping sweden fax
comp.graphics	point within polygon article apr bull scrowe hemel bull simon crowe writes looking for algorithm determine given point bound polygon does anyone have any such code reference book containing information the subject regards simon basically there are two algorithms determining whether point inside outside the polygon the first one ray half line method this method you can draw any ray the number the intersection point the ray and the polygon even then outside the number odd then inside cause you have deal with the special cases which may make you headache the second method algorithm draw the lines between the point and all the vertices the polygon calculate and sum the angles the successive lines the result then inside then the polygon otherwise outside experience tells the second method relible hope this helps yeh usc
comp.graphics	two pointing devices one com port bob davis sonny trantor harris atd com wrote article tkgm unix portal com wil shell portal com ville walveranta writes there any way connect two pointing devices one serial port haven tried this but believe they would interfere with each other even only one time would used just get switch for look computer shopper they are available fairly cheap they allow switching between two serial devices single port unfortunately the poster wants use internal and external modem switch isn going help them you aren using your com ports for anything else just define them different com ports define your internal modem say com and your external modem com you really shouldn have worry about interrupt conflicts since you won using both modems the same time christopher chan nui investment reliability will increase until channui austin ibm com exceeds the probable cost errors until someone include disclaimer insists getting some useful work done
comp.graphics	fractals what good are they article pdxgate uucp idr rigel pdx edu ian romanick writes they talked about another routine that could yield compress with image loss that could notice the draw back that takes hell long time compress something have see can find the book that can give more exact numbers ttyl that typical claim though they say they improved compression speed considerably did you find out anything else about the book interested looking you could give any pointers reportedly early fractal compression times hours used that marvelous piece hardware called grad students the work supposedly been automated since about but still waiting impressed allen sign cynical
comp.graphics	bgi drivers for svga dominic lai cylai ust wrote simon crowe scrowe hemel bull wrote require bgi drivers for super vga displays and super xvga displays does anyone know where could obtain the relevant drivers ftp sites would like know too regards dominic garbo uwasa one its many mirrors has file called svgabg the programming subdirectory these are svga bgi drivers for variety cards from the readme card types supported supervga drivers ahead ati chips tech everex genoa paradise oak trident both and tseng both and chipsets and video these drivers will also work video cards with vesa capability the tweaked drivers will work any register compatible vga card enjoy clark verbrugge clump mcgill honk honk blat wak wak wak wak wak ungow
comp.graphics	tiff philosophical significance article mentor purdue edu nova purdue edu allen writes article apr galki toppoint ulrich galki toppoint writes according the tiff specification the tiff version number bytes has been chosen for its deep philosophical significance last week read the hitchhikers guide the galaxy this actually how they picked the number sure and not amused every time read that part the tiff spec infuriates and none too happy about the complexity the spec anyway because think their arbitrary but carefully chosen number neither additionally find their choice bytes begin file with meaningless themselves why not just use the letters tiff and don think they should have bothered support both word orders either and found that many tiff readers actually don why tight for that matter tiff out now why not gripe about its problems also its important you volunteer help define critique the spec finally little numerology backwards and tiff bit image format chris christopher tully cptully med unc edu univ north carolina chapel hill chapel hill get paid for opinions but that doesn mean that unc anybody else agrees with them
comp.graphics	interleaf cgm has anyone successfully converted interleaf graphics cgm even heard being done love hear about mike mcconnell emm cray com
comp.graphics	hollywood hits virtual reality sorry missed you raymond was just out dahlgren last month the virtual reality market manager for silicon graphics perhaps can help little article mar relay nswc navy mil rchui nswc nswc navy mil raymond chui writes hello the real reality our agency started express interest virtual reality far not know much about all know about are the hollywood movies the terminater and lawnmover man also know something about from abc news magazine and computer graphics world magazine unfortunately while sgi systems were used create the special effects for both terminator and lawnmower man those are film quality computer graphics rendered software and written film frame time each frame computer animation for those films took hours render high end parallel processing computer systems thus that level graphics would difficult not impossible acheive real time frames per second certainly want know more about who are the leading companies agencies universities what machines support sgi sun bim etc depends upon how serious you are and how advanced your application true immersive visualization requires the rendering complex visual databases anywhere from newly rendered frames per second this similar requirement that traditional flight simulators for pilot training the frame rate too low the user notices the stepping the frames they move their head rapidly around the scene the motion the graphics not smooth and contiguous thus the graphics system must powerful enough sustain high frame rates while rendering complex data representations additionally the frame rate must constant the system renders frames per second one point then frames per second the next perhaps due the scene the new viewing direction being simpler than what was visible before the user can get heavily distracted the medium the graphics computer rather than focusing the data maintain constant frame rate the system must able run real time unix general does not support real time operation but silicon graphics has modified the unix kernel for its multi processor systems able support real time operation bypassing the usual unix process priority management schemes uniprocessor systems running unix cannot fundamentally support real time operation not sun sparc not series systems not ibm not even sgi uniprocessor systems like indigo crimson only our multiprocessor onyx and challenge systems support real time operation due their symmetric multi processing smp shared memory architecture from graphics perspective rendering complex virtual environments requires advanced rendering techniques like texture mapping and real time multi sample anti aliasing all the general purpose graphics systems the market today only crimson realityengine and onyx realityengine systems fully support these capabilities the anti aliasing particularly important the crawling jagged edges aliased polygons unfortunate distraction when immersed virtual environment what kind graphics languages are used with opengl phigs pex gks etc you can use the general purpose graphics libraries listed above develop applications but that starting pretty low level there are off the shelf software packages available get you going much faster being targeted directly the application developer some the most popular are particular order division inc redwood city dvs sens inc sausalito worldtoolkit naval postgraduate school monterey npsnet free gemini technology corp irvine gvs simation series paradigm simulation inc dallas visionworks audioworks silicon graphics inc mountain view iris performer there are some others but not off the top head what companies are making interface devices for goggles boom binocular omni orientational monitor hamlets gloves arms etc there are too many list here but here smattering fake space labs menlo park boom virtual technologies inc stanford cyberglove digital image design new york the cricket input kaiser electro optics carlsbad sim eye helmet displays virtual research sunnyvale flight helmet display virtual reality inc pleasantville head mtd displays software systems san jose modeling software etc etc etc what are those company addresses and phone numbers where can get list name experts and their phone numbers and email addresses read some the books the market virtual reality ken pimental and ken texiera virtual mirage artificial reality myron kreuger etc check out the newsgroup sci virtual worlds feel free contact for more info regards josh joshua mogal product manager advanced graphics division advanced graphics systems silicon graphics inc market manager north shoreline blvd virtual reality mountain view interactive entertainment tel fax mail mogal sgi com
comp.graphics	point within polygon article jonas gouraud jonas isy liu jonas yngvesson writes intersection between line and polygon undecidable dave baraff tom duff from deb charisma graphics cornell edu recent years many geometric problems have been successfully modeled new language called postscript see postscript language adobe systems incorporated isbn given line and polygon can write postscript program that draws the line and the polygon and then outputs the answer output mean the program executes command called showpage which actually prints page paper containing the line and the polygon quick examination the paper provides answer the reduced problem and thus the original problem curiously modern postscript the point polygon problem can solved even more easily wit title point polygon creator allen purdue edu for the amusement comp graphics regulars languagelevel documentneededresource humor sense thereof endcomments this program will test whether point inside given polygon currently uses the even odd rule but that can changed replacing ineofill with infill these are level operators you only got level you out luck the result will printed the output stream caution only accurate device pixels put huge scale first you aren sure point test put and coordinates here vertices polygon counter clockwise order put array pairs coordinates here dup get aload pop moveto dup length dup roll sub getinterval aload pop lineto forall closepath ineofill yes ifelse
comp.graphics	virtual reality for the cheap everyone thought that some people may interested software these groups announcing the release multiverse multiverse multi user non immersive windows based virtual reality system primarily focused entertainment research features client server based model using berkeley sockets limit the number users apart from performance generic clients customizable servers hierachical objects allowing attachment cameras and light sources multiple light sources ambient point and spot objects can have extension code handle unique functionality easily attached functionality client the client built around fast render loop basically changes things when told the server and then renders image from the user viewpoint also provides the server with information about the user actions which can then communicated other clients and therefore other users the client designed generic other words you don need develop new client when you want enter new world this means that resources can spent enhancing the client software rather than adapting the adaptations will explained moment occur the servers this release the client software supports the following functionality hierarchical objects with associated addressing multiple light sources and types ambient point and spot user interface panels colour polygonal rendering with phong shading optional wireframe for faster frame rates mouse and keyboard input some people may disappointed that this software doesn support the powerglove input device this not because can but because don have one this will however one the first enhancements server this where customization can take place the following basic support provided this release for potential world server developers transparent client management client message handling this may not sound like much but takes away the headache accepting and terminating clients and receiving messages from them the application writer can work with the assumption that things are happening locally things get more interesting the object extension functionality this what provided allow you animate your objects server selectable extension installation what this means that you can decide which objects have extended functionality your world basically you call the extension initialisers you want event handler registration when you develop extensions for object you basically write callback functions for the events that you want the object respond current events supported init move change collide terminate collision detection registration you want your object respond collision events just provide some basic information the collision detection management software your callback will activated when collision occurs this software kept separate from the worldserver applications because the application developer wants build library extended objects from which choose the following all you need make world server application provide initworld function this where you choose what object extensions will supported plus any initialization you want provide positionobject function this where you determine where place new client provide installworldobjects function this where you load the world wld file for new client provide getworldtype function this where you tell new client what persona they should have provide animateworld function this where you can wild minimum you should let the objects move calling move function and let the server sleep for bit avoid outrunning the clients that all there and prove here are the line counts for the three world servers provided generic lines dactyl lines more complicated collision detection due the stairs will probably improved with future versions dogfight lines location this software located the following site ftp washington edu directory pub virtual worlds file multiverse tar futures client texture mapping more realistic rendering buffering similar gouraud shading hmd support etc etc server physical modelling gravity friction etc enhanced object management interaction etc etc both improved comms hope this provides people with good understanding the multiverse software unfortunately comes with practically zero documentation and not sure whether that will ever able rectified hope people enjoy this software and that useful our explorations the virtual universe certainly found fascinating developing and would love add support for the powerglove and hmd finally one major disclaimer this totally amateur code that mean there support for this code other than what out the kindness heart you out pure desperation provide cannot held responsible for anything good bad that may happen through the use this code use your own risk disclaimer over course you love would like here from you and anyone with positive contributions criticisms also encouraged contact anyone who hates dev null and anyone wants let this for living you know where write thanks robert robert acsc com
comp.graphics	virtual reality for the cheap update location directory should public virtual worlds sorry robert robert acsc com
comp.graphics	pcx hello help please student turbo and graphics programming and having some problems finding algorithms and code teach how some stuff where there book code that will teach how read and write pcx dbf and gif files how access the extra ram paradise video board can paging the higher vga modes anybody got line good book help answer these question thanks very much send reply palm snycanva bitnet peace blessed stephen palm
comp.graphics	what good assembly vga programming book can someone give the title good vga graphics programming book please respond email thanks yuan che yuan wang uxa cso uiuc edu cywang cso uiuc edu
comp.graphics	fractals what good are they regards fractal commpression have seen fractal compressed movies they were both fairly impressive the first one was gray scale movie casablanca was and had minutes fps video was little grainy but not bad all the second one saw was only minutes but had bit color with fps and measured consider the fractal movies practical thing explore but unlike many other formats out there you end losing resolution don know what kind software hardware was used for creating the movies saw but the guy that showed them said took minutes per frame generate but said above playback was more frames per second and how else could you put minutes one floppy disk davidr rincon ema rockwell com opinions are own except where they are shared others which case will probably change mind
comp.graphics	vga graphics mode vesa tsr supports this can you report crt and other register state this mode thank serge ivanov serge argus msk
comp.graphics	reaction diffusion techniques this past week been playing with some the reaction diffusion not confused with rds techniques from siggraph was wondering what material available explain the control mechanism little more seems very much like matter picking random magic numbers and sitting back and waiting although both the papers turk and witkin kass were very well organized and extremely helpful guess what need more basic description the technique especially wrt the control mechanisms the tests that did had tendency either turn into blurry mud become unstable there any info available online source code would great but not necessary thanks terran boylan artist programmer better have loved engineering animation inc ames and lost than just have lost dorky dog
comp.graphics	bit graphics cards looking for eisa vesa local bus graphic cards that support least resolution know matrox has one but very expensive all the other cards know that support that resoultion are striaght isa also are there any servers for unix that support bits thanks
comp.graphics	fractal generation clouds haabn nye nscee edu frederick haab writes need implement algorithm fractally generate clouds sort benchmark for some algorithms working just matter interest self promo computer graphics sequence that one the local stations used play quite lot couple years ago showed flyover australia from the west coast the east the clouds were quite recognisable fuzzy flat white mandlebrot sets david silver
comp.graphics	please recommend graphics library for mac netters building cad package and need graphics library that can handle some rudimentry tasks such hidden line removal shading animation etc can you please offer some recommendations also need contact info name address email you can find thanks please post your responses case others have same need bob carpenter
comp.graphics	hot new software article qflpk usenet ins cwru edu mbc cwru edu michael comet wrote previous article trb msstate edu tony boutwell says there new product for the ibm ers out there called imagine and just started shipping yesterday can personally attest that will blow the doors off studio made impulse and its well don know about its competing with studio but pretty powerful allright yes but key issue speed how fast imagine and easy use studio can just render fast you don want things like ior etc can fine shadows animated reflection maps animated bump maps animated anything maps and with the ipas routines not that ever seen them can explosions top quality morphing fire rain lens flares etc not knocking imagine just want know how compares with
comp.graphics	raytracers which best all just recently become seriously hooked pov but there are few thing that want that pov won penumbral shadows dispersion etc was just wondering what other shareware freeware raytracers are out there and what can they heard vivid and polyray and rayshade and but rather wade through several hundred pages manual for each trying work out what their capabilities are can anyone help comparison tracing speed between each program would also mucho useful mark mark mackey life terminal disease and oxygen mmackey aqueous csiro addictive are you hooked
comp.graphics	shareware recently saw the latest computer shopper and there was article nice shareware graphics programs they looked pretty good and the listed the article one had graphics workshop one found via archie draft choice old version though and the rest couldn find there anyone that knows where can get the following programs via anonymous ftp please let know adkins graphics zip zip draft choice latest vga version draftc zip envision publisher envis zip envis zip neopaint neopnt zip thanx advance petro david petro kwyjibo big dumb balding dept physics north american ape university windsor petro server uwindsor
comp.graphics	please recommend graphics library for mac robert carpenter writes netters building cad package and need graphics library that can handle some rudimentry tasks such hidden line removal shading animation etc can you please offer some recommendations also need contact info name address email you can find thanks please post your responses case others have same need bob carpenter too would like graphics library how much libraries cost anyway can you get the tools used say renderman and can you get them reasonable cost sorry that don have any answers just questions matt madsen mmadsen ics uci edu
comp.graphics	thinning algorithm netters looking for source code that can reads the ascii file bitmap file and produced the thinned image for example preprocess the character image want apply thinning algorithm thanks kevin
comp.graphics	looking for autocad dxf file parser hello does anyone know any function libraries the public domain that assist parsing autocad dxf file please mail thanks jogle geigel seas gwu edu
comp.graphics	delaunay triangulation does anybody know what delaunay triangulation there any reference useful for creating objects yes what the advantage thanks advance yeh usc
comp.graphics	cylinder and ray article fginnbv darkstar ucsc edu koehler secs ucsc edu writes would most thrilled some kind person could help with the following given cylinder defined line segment between two points and radius and what the easiest and not too expensive way find ray defined another line through two points cuts through this cylinder and where think the test for touching rather simple the closest approach the two lines less than then the ray does penetrate the cylinder nope this won work for cylinder you can have line arbitrarily close the the cylinder backbone and yet not intersect the test works for pillbox though cylinder with two hemispheres attached the ends thanks ryan koehler secs ucsc edu arun
comp.graphics	crimson was kubota announcement article edu kiki problem with inews gateway file keith baccki writes lee lee obiwan rsg hac com wrote did you say dec alpha upgrade path from replace upgrade path from vax alpha replace the system not totally fair you haven mentioned the decstation series think sgi made cisc mainframes they wouldn provide upgrade path onyx agree with you about the upgrade path but think was fair the original posting complained about sgi coming out with newer and better architectures and not having upgrade path from the older ones and that dec did statement merely attempted point out that all computer companies are constantly attempting improve their product market position share doing they eventually come point where they have new architecture and the only upgrade path replace the system and the particular system was complaining about was computer lifetimes relatively old statement felt dec history providing upgrades was not far superior than the industry average and that opinion sgi history better than dec and what dec doing with mips based decstation line are they going abandon for their alpha based line provide upgrade path and tfp and
comp.graphics	book kells correction aparantly mistyped the address for the ftp site which holds the images the correct address should jupiter csd unb rather than jupiter csd unb edu they are the directory pub library info jon williams university northern iowa
comp.graphics	job job opportunity seri systems engineering research institute kist korea institute science and technology looking for the resumes for the following position and need them the end june you are interested send resumes cad cae lab floor systems engineering research institute korea institute science and technology yousung eoeun dong daejon korea company systems engineering research institute title senior research scientist job description depth knowledge working knowledge computer aided design working knowledge computer graphics working knowledge virtual reality skills not required but desirable knowledge data modeling virtual reality experience understanding client server architecture requirement job location daejon korea contact info chul lim cad cae lab floor systems engineering research institute korea institute science and technology yousung eoeun dong daejon korea phone fax mail jxl
comp.graphics	chosing optimal colors for colormap looking for algorithm that would generate good cross section rgb colours given limited colour map size the problem writing application for the that may have most colors want use one colormap palette for the application but like contain even spread colours the visible spectrum could use rgb cube but the problem that lot those colours are almost identical the human eye does anyone know how can optimize choice colors
comp.graphics	siggraph srnelson speedsail eng sun com scott nelson writes dave mikelson almac dave mikelson writes does anyone know there open day for the public any time that not attend conferences but just browse around the exhibits are the exhibits etc just for fully registered attendees was free long you got siggraph before july for was similar free before july safe assume that the same kind deal will available this year just got advance program and the card the back for the exhibits plus program the exhibits plus admission number conference venues including special general session behind the scenes computer graphics film admission not free but nominal exhibits are open august get copy the advance program you can call the advance program itself good indication the excitement the conference register early and get for free sorry doesn work this year steve cunningham
comp.graphics	studio works changes guys like all people this group fans fractal and render favourite are fractint pov dstudio now listen ideas have just starting now able use dstudio quite well simulating full animation grand prix unfortanatly just some lap very interested about all kind prj and concerning about cars parts its motors wheel dxf are good enough does anyone have object give complete hard animation anyway any exchanges about object material project will very apreciate there ftp site where can find its looking for pov files too interested about cpu time comparision rendering images pov dstusio thank all email rosa ghost dsi unimi
comp.graphics	rumours about dave optimla aimla com dave ziedman writes still concept the software what sells and what will determine its success apparantly you dont keep the news was shown ces developers and others private showings over software licensees currently developing software for would say that lot more than just concept
comp.graphics	please recommend graphics library for article bcstec boeing com rgc bcstec boeing com robert carpenter writes netters building cad package and need graphics library that can handle some rudimentry tasks such hidden line removal shading animation etc can you please offer some recommendations also need contact info name address email you can find thanks please post your responses case others have same need bob carpenter been given the sites some excellent objects all sorts file formats here where they are host plaza aarnet edu location graphics graphics mirrors directory drwxr apr avalon chinalake navy mil host compute ncsu edu location mirrors wustl graphics graphics mirrors directory drwxr mar avalon chinalake navy mil host wuarchive wustl edu location graphics graphics mirrors directory drwxr jan avalon chinalake navy mil see ajay
comp.graphics	about the various dxf format questions archie told the following sites holding documentation about dxf host nic funet last updated apr location pub csc graphics format file rwxrwxr dec dxf doc host rainbow cse nau edu last updated jun location graphics formats file mar dxf doc host ftp waseda last updated apr location pub data graphic file nov dxf doc org wunsch ham dtl joerg wunsch uriah sax anything can wrong joerg sax wutcd hadrian hrz chemnitz will joerg wunsch tcd dresden
comp.graphics	mpeg for windows mono needed sunsite unc edu pub multimedia utilities unix find mpeg play tar find for mono works best mpeg play dither threshold though you can use mpeg play dither mono face this not the best viewing situation also someone has made patch for mpeg play that gives two more mono modes mono and halftone they are jan pandonia canberra edu jan newmarch and the patch can found csc canberra edu under pub motif mpeg mono patch leon dent lcd umcc umich edu
comp.graphics	compiled version vogl library for has anybody compiled vogl graphics library for ibm need call from fortran but don have compile the sources thanks for any help martti toivakka mtoivakk abo
comp.graphics	virtual reality for the cheap has anyone got multiverse work have built svr mips svr and sun sparcstation there seems many bugs the dogfight and dactyl simply nothing after fixing bug where variable defined twice two different modules one needed setting static else the client core dumped steve extn sts mfltd uunet mfocus sts micro focus just like pariah have name west street living blaze obscurity rum ruff splat newbury need courage survive the day berkshire england bort etry nfluence with large hammer
comp.graphics	micro world data bank looking for database called micro world data bank database with digital map information containing latitude longitude points said the public domain anyone knows place where can get preferably ftp gopher mailserver etc otherwise snail mail please let know you have yourself and are willing send the file drop line using with program called versamap charles culberson anyone knows another detailed database that can used with this program preferably would very interested replies mail please directly don read this group regularly there interest post summary course derk ederveen fidonet tel ederveen research ptt ederveen hlsdnl bitnet fax admd net prmd ptt research ptt research ederveen dnm wish was warrior every language that speak lou reed
comp.graphics	looking for bala vatti email address looking for the email address the author generic solution polygon clipping communication the acm july vol got information about the author follows bala vatti lcec river road hudson email vatti waynar lcec lockheed want get some related and detailed papers about the same topic from the author but failed send email the address any information appreciated thank you very much best regards young kunii lab dept information science faculty science university tokyo bunkyo hongo tokyo japan email young tokyo
comp.graphics	round elliptical dot screens when using photoshop there anyway get elliptical dot for the halftone screen rather than round dot printer would prefer elliptical dot but not sure how set sending from mac iici linotronic imagesetter and using photoshop make separations any help would greatly appreshed michael unscene michael maier computer artist anl glued the veiw email michael maier qmgate anl gov the milk amnesia phone michael maier
comp.graphics	sgi sales practices was crimson was kubota announcement article hacgate scg hac com lee luke rsg hac com lee writes the original posting complained about sgi coming out with newer and better architectures and not having upgrade path from the older ones and that dec did that not what was complaining about nor did intend suggest that dec was any better than sgi let tell you about the lynx some day but prepared with large sedative you comment regarding dec was indicate that might open other vendors that supported opengl rather than deal further with sgi what annoyed about the fact that were led believe that would able upgrade multiprocessor version the crimson without the assistance fork lift truck also annoyed about being sold several personal irises previous site the understanding that architecture would around for while rather than being flushed now understand that sgi responsible its investors and has keep showing positive quarterly bottom line odd that found myself pressured least two occasions get the business the books just before the end the quarter but just little tired getting boned the process maybe because lab buys sgis onesies and twosies aren entitled peek under the covers the big kids nasa for instance are this lab and suspect that lot other labs and organizations doesn have load money spend computers every year can out buying new systems regular basis the boxes that buy now will have last pretty much through the entire grant period five years and some case beyond that means that need buy the best piece equipment that can when have the money not some product that was built paraphrase one previous poster words fill niche compete with some other vendor going looking this box for the next five years and every time look going think about sgi and how could have better spent money actually your money since supported almost entirely federal tax dollars now you have pardon while off and hiss and fume corner somewhere and think dark libelous thoughts spl steve lamont sciviguy spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource san diego jolla other car car too bumper strip seen
comp.graphics	please recommend graphics library for mac robert carpenter writes netters building cad package and need graphics library that can handle some rudimentry tasks such hidden line removal shading animation etc can you please offer some recommendations also need contact info name address email you can find thanks please post your responses case others have same need bob carpenter the following extracted from sumex aim stanford edu should also the mirrors think there source for some applications that may have some bearing your project poke around the source directory never used this package nor know anyone who did but the price right hope this helps cheinan abstracts files thu apr pst directory info mac source binhex grafsys hqx date fri mar from christian steffen ove franz cfranz iiic ethz questions mac archive umich edu subject grafsys incoming directory grafsys short description follows programmers grafsys vers now available version mainly bugfix for think users this version now runs with think promise the docs now contain chapter for programmers how use the grafsys you have problems feel free contact the other change that removed the fastperftrig calls from the fpu version make run faster those you who don know what all this about read programmers grafsys what didn you always have this great game mind where you needed some way drawing three dimensional scenes didn you always want write this program that visualized the structure three dimensional molecules and didn the task writing your conversions routines keep you from actually doing well the answer any the above questions yes but what has with this package read grafsys think pascal library that provides you with simple routines for building saving loading resources and manipulating independent rotating around arbitrary achses translating and scaling three dimensional objects objects not just simple single line drawings grafsys supports full clipping animation and some primitive hidden line hidden surface drawing with simple commands from within your program grafsys also supports full eye control with both perspective and parallel projections you can understand word don worry this just showing off for those who know about the docs that come with will try explain what all means later grafsys provides powerful interface supply your own drawing routines with data you can use grafsys the transformations and your own routines the actual drawing note that grafsys also provides drawing routines you don have worry about that you don want grafsys comes two versions one for the and above processors the other version uses fixed point arithmetic and runs any mac both versions are source compatibel grafsys comes with extensive manual that teaches you the fundamentals graphics and how use the package demand big enough will convert the grafsys object class library however feelt that the way implemented now makes easier use for lot more people than the select oop guild grafsys free for any non commercial usage read the documentation enclosed enjoy christian franz
comp.graphics	fonts pov article wampyr uow edu wampyr uow edu coronado emmanuel abad says have seen several ray traced scenes from mtv was rayshade with stroked fonts appearing objects the image the fonts chars had color depth and even textures associated with them now was wondering possible the same pov thanks noel yes there are serveral programs which can convert font files the borland fonts objects consisting spheres cones etc used program forgot its name place but can look for which converted these borland fonts three different raytracers vivid pov and polyray which like more more flexibel faster use expressions etc the program has lot nice features interested give mail peter vanderveen visser wau department genetics agricultural university wageningen the netherlands
comp.graphics	vesa the speedstar using the vmode command all you need type vmode vesa the dos prompt vmode included with the speedstar have used the vesa mode for autodesk animator pro geoffrey hansen mindlink inumerable confusions and feeling despair invariably emerge periods great technological and cultural transition marshall mcluhan
comp.graphics	hot new software don have nor imagine nor real but old amiga user think you should take look also real for the amiga saw imagine the amiga for long time friend home and seen action bit movie riccione italy italian computer graphics contest many professionals using studio softimage for silicon graphics and imagine the amiga were very impressed the power this programs sorry lost the posting with full description features this great program for more informations give look comp sys amiga graphics representative activa international told that will out weeks for the amiga and that windows silicon indigo and unix version are under development ciao sergio sergio ruocco ruocco ghost dsi unimi via vittorio settimo milanese milano phone
comp.graphics	pcx article apr freenet carleton freenet carleton jason wiggle writes from freenet carleton jason wiggle subject pcx date wed apr gmt hello help please student turbo and graphics programming and having some problems finding algorithms and code teach how some stuff where there book code that will teach how read and write pcx dbf and gif files how access the extra ram paradise video board can paging the higher vga modes anybody got line good book help answer these question thanks very much send reply palm snycanva bitnet peace blessed stephen palm book that can somewhat recommend pratical image processing craig lindley published wiley addresses reading writing from pcx tiff files image acquisition manipulation and storage and has source code the book the source primarily written turbo and naturally has conversion possibilities have converted some quick naturally the code has some problems the book usuall typos syntax etc are problems can good learning experience for someone who studying there also companion disk with source available for order and overall the book not bad acquired the book waldensoftware
comp.graphics	please recommend graphics library what hardware plan run workstation cost level run time licensing needs bob robert schmitt applied derivatives technology lehman brothers rschmitt shearson com
comp.graphics	need help with mitsubishi image printer our group recently bought mitsubishi video printer and could use some help with bought this thing because has parallel data input addition the usual video signal inputs and claimed print gray level images however the manual that came with only describes how format the parallel data print and bit pixel images after some initial problems with the parallel interface now have this thing running from parallel port hewlett packard workstation and can print and bit pixel images just fine called the mitsubishi people and asked about the level claim and they said that was only available when used with the video signal inputs this was not mentioned the sales literature however they did say the can bit pixel level images parallel mode but they didn have any information about how program and they would call japan etc frankly find hard believe that this thing can bit pixel images from the video source can store bits pixel the memory not like memory that expensive any more anybody has any information getting bit pixel even bit pixel images out this thing would greatly appreciate your sending thanks allan weber signal image processing institute university southern california weber sipi usc edu
comp.graphics	need graph display edit looking for program that capable displaying graph with nodes and links and with the possibility edit interactively the graph add one node change one link etc actually very simple program would all need put some boxes the nodes pane and able manipulate them with the mouse move add delete boxes does anyone know such program available thanks for any help loris renggli phone swiss federal institute technology fax math dept lausanne switzerland mail renggli masg epfl
comp.graphics	rumours about article apr rchland ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado ricardo rchland vnet ibm com writes and cpu doesn help much either understand supposedly variation running something like mhz with this speed you truly need sprites wow very interested get hands one these especially considering the fact that motorola has not yet released the which supposedly the next the lineup ricardo the animation playback which lawrence was referring earlier post plain old quicktime with the compact video codec seen digitized video some apple early commercials precise running centris about fps very nicely bit color depth would expect that using the same algorithm risc processor should able approach full screen full motion animation though you implied the processor will taxed more with highly dynamic material sean mcmains check out the gopher phone university north texas new bands info server fax box seanmac acs unt edu mail denton mcmains unt edu
comp.graphics	xga info has anyone more info about the xga chipset funcs truecolor resolutions any boards with xga out yet thanks rainer rainer leberle rleberle sparc cstp umkc edu university kansas city new mail from clinton whitehouse gov subject specified
comp.graphics	tiff philosophical significance cptully med unc edu christopher tully pathology writes why tight for that matter tiff out now why not gripe about its problems also its important you volunteer help define critique the spec hear hear finally little numerology backwards and tiff bit image format really thought that the reason was was that really but written that intel chips you could get the proper value pete help stomp out the endian wars break some eggs their sides peter mueller thebishop when person commits violation and sins highlndr cso uiuc edu unintentionally regard any the pmueller mrcnext cso uiuc edu lord holy things bring the lord penalty ram from the flock
comp.graphics	sgi sales practices was crimson was kubota announcement comment regarding dec was indicate that might open other vendors that supported opengl rather than deal further with sgi opengl graphics programming library and such great portable interface for the development interactive graphics applications not however indicator performance that will vary strongly from machine machine and vendor vendor sgi committed high performance interactive graphics systems and software tools opengl means that you can port easily from sgi other platforms there guarantee that your performance would comparable what annoyed about the fact that were led believe that would able upgrade multiprocessor version the crimson without the assistance fork lift truck your sales representative truly mislead you then you should have valid grievance against which you should carry your local sgi sales management team feel free contact the local branch manager understand that repeat sales come from satisfied customers give shot also annoyed about being sold several personal irises previous site the understanding that architecture would around for while rather than being flushed one the previous posts stated the personal iris was introduced and grew include the and clock rates sped over time rule thumb sgi platforms live for about years this was true the motorola based series the the professional series the early the power series parallel systems individual cpu subsystems running particular clock rate usually live for about years new graphics architectures the high end vgx realityengine are released every months years these are the facts life look these machines they become almost archaic after four years and have come out with new platform like indigo onyx challenge which has higher bus bandwidths faster cpus faster graphics and and larger disk capacities don become uncompetitive from the user perspective you have buy machine that meets your current needs and makes economic sense today you can wait buy but you need guaranteed upgrade path for the machine ask the sales rep for one writing feasible they should able that some our upgrade paths have specific programs associated with them such the performance protection program for older based power series multiprocessing systems which allowed purchasers those systems obtain guaranteed upgrade price for moving the new onyx challenge based bit multiprocessor systems now understand that sgi responsible its investors and has keep showing positive quarterly bottom line odd that found myself pressured least two occasions get the business the books just before the end the quarter but just little tired getting boned the process that happening becausing misunderstandings mis communication not because sgi directly attempting annoy our customer base maybe because lab buys sgis onesies and twosies aren entitled peek under the covers the big kids nasa for instance are this lab and suspect that lot other labs and organizations doesn have load money spend computers every year can out buying new systems regular basis most sgi customers are onesy twosey types but regardless rarely give great deal notice when are about introduce new system because again like previous post stated pre announced and the schedule slipped would mess our potential customers schedules when they were counting the availability the new systems particular date and would also look awfully bad both our investors and the financial analysts who watch most carefully see are meeting our commitments the boxes that buy now will have last pretty much through the entire grant period five years and some case beyond that means that need buy the best piece equipment that can when have the money not some product that was built paraphrase one previous poster words fill niche compete with some other vendor going looking this box for the next five years and every time look going think about sgi and how could have better spent money actually your money since supported almost entirely federal tax dollars five years awfully long time computer years new processor technologies are arriving every years making year old computer least and probably generations behind the times the competitive nature the market demanding that rate development your timing really years between purchases you have accept the limited viability whatever architecture you buy into from any vendor there are some realities about the computer biz that all have live with but keeping customers happy the most important don give know josh joshua mogal product manager advanced graphics division advanced graphics systems silicon graphics inc market manager north shoreline blvd virtual reality mountain view interactive entertainment tel fax mail mogal sgi com
comp.graphics	rendering software for multi processor computer hello searching for rendering software which has been developed specifically take advantage multi processor computer systems any pointers such software would greatly appreciated thanks billy carter software engineering section southwest research institute wcarter swri edu
comp.graphics	wanted map the world type gifs can anyone direct map type gifs interesting cartography and would find these gifs useful tia lee van dyke lvandyke balboa eng uci edu uucp infotec infotec com lee sunkist west sun com
comp.graphics	pov having trouble bump mapping gif sphere hello been trying bump map gif onto sphere for while and can seem get work image mapping works but not bump mapping here simple file was working with could some kind soul tell whats wrong with this include colors inc include shapes inc include textures inc camera location direction right look object light source color white object sphere texture bump map gif surf gif note surf gif plasma fractal from fractint that using the landscape palette map thanks advance daniel daniel kennett dkennett sfu our minds are finite and yet even those circumstances finitude are surrounded possibilities that are infinite and the purpose human life grasp much can out that infinitude alfred north whitehead
comp.graphics	point intersection lines can anybody suggest robust algorithms code for computing the point intersection lines plane the data has outliers and hence simple least squares technique does not seem provide satifactory results please respond mail and will post the summary the newsgroups there sufficient interest thanks raj talluri member technical staff image understanding branch texas instruments central research labs dallas texas talluri csc com
comp.graphics	program included edge detection algorithms this program doesn detect edges with compass operators and laplacian operator should output raw grey scale images with edges the output doesn look like edges all novicee terms how correct the errors any improvements are welcome even accept your corrected code convolve the input image with digital gaussian remove noise will get improvement with the laplacian types edge detection include stdio include math define imagewidth define imageheight unsigned char input image imageheight imagewidth unsigned char angles wanted imageheight imagewidth unsigned char magnitude image imageheight imagewidth int laplace int compass int compass int compass int compass int compass int compass int compass int compass void compass row col int row col int value int rows cols int compass compass compass compass int compass compass compass compass compass compass compass compass compass compass compass compass for rows rows rows for cols cols cols row rows col cols compass int input image row rows col cols compass rows cols compass int input image row rows col cols compass rows cols compass int input image row rows col cols compass rows cols compass int input image row rows col cols compass rows cols compass int input image row rows col cols compass rows cols compass int input image row rows col cols compass rows cols compass int input image row rows col cols compass rows cols compass int input image row rows col cols compass rows cols compass compass value compass else value compass value compass value compass value compass value compass value compass value compass value compass value compass value compass value compass value compass value compass magnitude image row col char value void laplace row col int row col int rows cols magnitude image row col for rows rows rows for cols cols cols row rows col cols magnitude image row col char int magnitude image row col int input image row rows col cols laplace rows cols main file original image file laplace mag laplace mag laplace mag file compass mag int row col algo count original image fopen input image laplace mag fopen laplace magnitude compass mag fopen compass magnitude fread unsigned char input image sizeof unsigned char imageheight imagewidth original image for algo count algo count algo count for row row imageheight row for col col imagewidth col algo count laplace row col else compass row col algo count fwrite magnitude image sizeof char imageheight imagewidth laplace mag else fwrite magnitude image sizeof char imageheight imagewidth compass mag for lot music ftp sounds sdsu edu then cat file dev audio library catalog telnet bison acsu buffalo edu when doubt ask xarchie xgopher xwais
comp.graphics	virtual reality for the cheap steve the author multiverse feel had better respond your mailnote questioning whether anyone had managed compile this software the quick answer yes the long answer yes but few have had few problems with their platforms not all unix are the same you know far many bugs would probably more useful everyone including you you were bit more explicit platforms has succesfully compiled and run are dec ultrix sun solaris possible the main problem that don have access other platforms than the there are portability problems then the only way hear about them people letting know and giving clue how fix far the software not doing anything you really think would bother releasing that was the case perhaps you didn read the few docs that are supplied the dogfight world made clients only you there your own then you not going see anything the dactyl world has quite lot scenary you don see anything there then this definitely problem one final word you not interested don bother with you are interested then please remember that not asking for any money why not try little patience and constructive criticism maybe that will get results robert robert acsc com
comp.graphics	hot new software don think speed has been determined since has never run intel chips but the amiga motorola chips was one the fastest true ray tracers don think impulse would port over and not take speed into consideration terms features and learning curve all that you stated for also true for imagine and lots more but have admit that after years use the amiga the learning curve very steep this due only the manual realy bad however there lot after market support for this product including regular tips articles many magazines such avid and great book steve worley called understanding imagine this book not just recommened must think important consideration should price for not including tool packages under for imagine complete
comp.graphics	cylinder and ray sketch rotate cylinder axis axis intersect projection line with projected cylinder similar but easier than sphere intersection result intersection one intersection two intersections parameterized along line and now look and compute intersections line with top and bottom planes cylinder this gives and the interval intersection then the bit the line from intersect details left exercise for the reader spencer thomas info tech and networking cfob genome informatician univ michigan ann arbor spencer thomas med umich edu fax
comp.graphics	sphere from points boy this will embarassing trivial faq given points non coplanar how does one find the sphere that center and radius exactly fitting those points know how for circle from points but not immediately see straightforward way have checked some geometry books graphics gems and farin but still loss please have mercy and provide the solution thanks bolson university washington cardiovascular research bolson washington edu preferred bolson max bitnet bolson milton washington edu you must
comp.graphics	announce ivan sutherland speak harvard the harvard computer society pleased announce its third lecture the spring ivan sutherland the father computer graphics and innovator microprocessing will speaking harvard university tuesday april aiken computations building room the title his talk logical effort and the conflict over the control information cookies and tea will served the aiken lobby admissions free and all are welcome aiken located north the science center near the law school for more information send mail eekim husc harvard edu the lecture will videotaped and tape will made available thanks eugene kim give place stand and will internet eekim husc harvard edu move the earth archimedes
comp.graphics	windows imagine has anyone who has ordered the new version imagine actually recieved yet just about ready order but reading posts about people still awaiting delivery are making little paranoid has anyone actually held this piece software their own hands later jim nobles
comp.graphics	vga mode routines available there made vga mode graphics library available via ftp originally wrote the routines kind exercise for myself but perhaps someone here will find them useful they are certainly useable they are but are missing some higher level functionality they intended more intro mode programming starting point the library assumes processor but trivial modify for enough people ask make the mods and post different version the routines are written assembly tasm and are callable from they are fairly simple but found them very fast for purposes anyway routines are included enter and exit mode define virtual screen put and get pixels put pixmap rectangular image with transparent spots put sprite image with see thru areas copy areas the virtual screen into video memory etc also included simple routine draw line well routine load color gif image into buffer also wrote quick dirty demo program that bounces bunch sprites around behind three windows the whole package available spang camosun pub dos vgl zip zipped with pkzip completely the public domain far concerned with whatever you like however nice get credit where due and maybe mail telling you like you don like don bother mark morley camosun
comp.graphics	please recommend graphics library for mac searched the mich archives fairly thoroughly for graphics packages always thought mirror sumex aim stanford edu was wrong look into grafsys does sound interesting thanks cheinan bobc
comp.graphics	please recommend graphics library sorry about not mentioning platform original post was mac programmer and then decided post here comp graphics like the software run primarily mac either object pascal think mpw but port windows later package that runs mac and has windows version would ideal looking for package that has low upfront costs and reasonable licensing costs course bobc
comp.graphics	sphere from points article qkgbuinns shelley washington edu bolson carson washington edu edward bolson writes boy this will embarassing trivial faq given points non coplanar how does one find the sphere that center and radius exactly fitting those points know how for circle from points but not immediately see straightforward way have checked some geometry books graphics gems and farin but still loss please have mercy and provide the solution wouldn this require hyper sphere space points over specifies sphere far can see unless that you can prove that point exists space that equi distant from the points and this may not necessarily happen correct wrong which quite possibly steve steven collins email steve crl hitachi visiting computer graphics researcher phone hitachi central research lab tokyo fax
comp.graphics	sphere from points bolson carson washington edu edward bolson writes boy this will embarassing trivial faq given points non coplanar how does one find the sphere that center and radius exactly fitting those points know how for circle from points but not immediately see straightforward way have checked some geometry books graphics gems and farin but still loss please have mercy and provide the solution not bad question don have any refs that list this algorithm either but thinking about bit shouldn too hard take three the points and find the plane they define well the circle that they lie you say you have this algorithm already find the center this circle the line passing through this center perpendicular the plane the three points passes through the center the sphere repeat with the unused point and two the original points this gives you two different lines that both pass through the sphere origin their interection the center the sphere the radius easy compute just the distance from the center any the original points leave the math you but this workable algorithm alternate method would take pairs points the plane formed the perpendicular bisector each line segment pair also contains the center the sphere three pairs will form three planes intersecting point this might easier implement steve spworley netcom com
comp.graphics	rayshade dxf rib etc strata mac user who wants use some the rayshade models built using macrayshade rayshade with stratavision since stratavision can import many different model files thought this would cinch but haven been able find simple translator that will work the mac any ideas stratavision should able import dxf minicad super swivel professional out the box and rib igs with externals also anyone knows any other translator externals available for stratavision esp rayshade please mail btw going send mail the rayshade usrs mailing list tomorrow misplaced the address but since most users rayshade not seem operate with macs not getting hopes thanks advance patrick hurh fnal fnal gov
comp.graphics	siggraph course notes looking for copy the following siggraph publication gomez comments event driven annimation siggraph course notes anyone knows location where can obtain copy these notes would appreciate they could let know thanks dkusswur falcon depaul edu
comp.graphics	cobra video card help does anyone out there net land have any information the cobra card the sticker the end the card reads model cobra bios cobra havn been able find anything about from anyone you have any information how get hold the company which produces the card know where any drivers are for please let know far can tell cga card that taking bit isa slots but when enable the test patterns displays much more than the usualy cga colors least from what can count thanks internet jele eis calstate edu bbs mirage gilligan tsoft net bbs mirage tsoft bay org mirage thetech com uucp apple com tsoft bbs mirage computer and video imaging major
comp.graphics	externel processes for studio all does anybody have the source code the externel processes that comes with studio and mabe som kind doc for writing the processes your self lars author lars jorgensen syntax bbs bad syntax bbs denmark golded
comp.graphics	text recognition software availability article ihqm mentor purdue edu nova purdue edu allen writes one more time there any free ocr software out there ask this question periodically and haven found anything this the last time don find anything going write some myself post here email you have any leads suggestions else just sit back and wait for not sure this free shareware but you can try look wsmrsimtel army mil directory msdos deskpub file ocr zip from the file simibm lst ocr zip optical character recognition for scanners hope this helps roman valo valo cvt stuba slovak technical university bratislava slovakia
comp.graphics	sphere from points article qkgbuinns shelley washington edu bolson carson washington edu edward bolson writes boy this will embarassing trivial faq center and radius exactly fitting those points know how for circle from points but not immediately see straightforward way have checked some geometry books graphics gems and farin but still loss please have mercy and provide the solution off the top head might try given find center sphere determined dist radius the same distance from our four points dist dist dist dist course can square the whole thing get rid square roots distsq distsq distsq distsq plug the variables into the distance formula simplify and the and terms cancel out leaving you with three linearly independent equations and three unknowns solve using your favorite method all the best john john eickemeyer the lord god subtle information technology institute but malicious not national computer board singapore email johne iti gov albert einstein
comp.graphics	rumours about article apr mercury unt edu sean mcmains mcmains unt edu writes wow very interested get hands one these especially considering the fact that motorola has not yet released the which supposedly the next the lineup the variation the that was done few years ago the european partners motorola has some integrated controllers and half mmu but otherwise think the same the and were burkhard neidecker lutz distributed multimedia group cec karlsruhe eerp portfolio manager software motion pictures berkom project multimedia base technology digital equipment corporation neidecker nestvx enet dec com
comp.graphics	avi file format would someone please email the new avi file format sure that many people would like know what exactly thank you mark gregory lecturer gregory rmit edu fax royal melbourne institute technology department communication and electronic engineering box melbourne victoria australia mark gregory lecturer gregory rmit edu fax royal melbourne institute technology department communication and electronic engineering box melbourne victoria australia
comp.graphics	vga graphics mode dutc student umn edu writes article bmp news cis umn edu some vesa bios support this mode and any vga should able support this colors since only requires bytes vesa tsr supports this the only vesa mode card can support due restrictions paradise not responsible for anything say just opinion robert kyanko rob rjck uucp ahh possibly you punched the wrong numbers your calculator color modes take byte per pixel time which exact only takes but don think bios mode wouldn bet that all vga cards can that either vga card has bet can both and that definition svga though not very high svga yes did punch the wrong numbers working too many late nites intended stating bytes not the bios just vesa tsr not responsible for anything say just opinion robert kyanko rob rjck uucp
comp.graphics	cview answers very kind soul has mailed this reply for the bugs cview since isn the position post this himself asked post for him but leave his name out here comes cview has quite number bugs the one you mention perhaps the most annoying but not the most dangerous far can determine has with the temp files that cview creates cview gives the user control over where places its temp files just places them its current directory the problem you mention occurs far can tell when runs out disk space for its temp files seems cview doesn check properly for this situation cview decodes jpeg seems write out temp file with all the pixel data with bit colour information then for bit displays does the dithering again writing another file with the bit colour information while writing this second file also writes the data your colour card then when does the last chunk bit data recopies all the data from the bit file your screen again does this last recopy operation for its fit screen feature even when this feature not enabled the result this process the following runs out disk space when writing the first bit file all you ever see much data has room for and the last bit data simply repeated over and over again because cview never realizes the disk has filled and disk writes reads aren performed has enough room for the bit data but runs out room for the bit data you see almost all the picture does the dithering and writes the screen card however then when finishes the dithering and recopies the data from the bit file screen for whatever reason does this one again just gets repetition the last chunk data for which there was room the disk this just guess but probably fairly accurate least the general idea track think although have probably made errors details about file etc the way around this course clear sufficient disk space the temp files for large jpeg and bigger can very large meg meg some the largest have needed excess meg free disk space cview has much more serious bug you are trying display file from floppy and you change floppies while cview has some temp file open the floppy then cview certain circumstances will write the directory and fat table can remember for the removed floppy onto the newly inserted floppy thus corruptimg the new floppy very serious possibly unrevcoverable way careful incredibly poor programming for program this the other hand when choosing files the open files menu cview insists doing few disk reads every time one moves the lighter square incredibly annoying when could them all once when gets the directory info and really how much effort does take sort directory listing with much thanks the originator this article rene walter renew stack urc tue will drown tears sorrow there hope for tomorrow will this world ever get better can all just live together don wanna live strife just wanna live life deserve have future the good girls future
comp.graphics	alt raytrace potential group yes please create the group alt raytrace soon hooked pov geez like don have anything better dave letterman
comp.graphics	shadow optical raytracing package everyone looking for some software called shadow far know its simple raytracer used the visualization synchrotron beam lines now have old version the program here but unfortunately don have any documentation anyone knows where can get some docs maybe newer version the program even another program that does the same sort thing would love hear from you think shadow was written cerrina anyone any ideas thanks gary serc daresbury lab
comp.graphics	character recognition there any program available free otherwise for taking tiff gif some other bitmapped file and turning parts into ascii characters dos platform independent programs possible thanks
comp.graphics	need good concave convex polygon algorithm need good concave convex polygon conversion routine tried couple without much luck please mail responses and will post summary any replies thank you richard stoakley rws uvacs virginia edu
comp.graphics	automatic layout state diagrams hoping someone out there will able help our computer science project group are doing computer science honours and our project graphical simulator for finite state automata basically the program must draw diagram fsa from textual grammar showing circles for states and labeled arc between the problem working out the best way layout the states and draw the arc between that few arc possible cross each other anyone has any suggestions algorithms bug free ready compile code that might help would much appreciated thanks advance gregory
comp.graphics	how compensate for photographic viewpoint and distortion all out there have this problem and not certain solving the correct way was wondering anyone can shed light this point the right place look have ray imaging camera and metallic tube with cylindrical hole passing through right angle the tube axis image ray source screen metallic tube know source screen centre distance radius the tube radius the hole some calculations based the image the hole the screen however the calculations are mathematically highly complex and must assume that the object hole projects image resembling ellipse the tube not parallel the screen the centre the screen however unlikely that the object placed conveniently firstly must transform the major and minor axis the ellipse cannot know what the angle between the tube and screen have assume that they are parallel the transformation how this transformation secondly there distortion the image due the screen being planar the source screen distance increases move away from the centre the screen how can compensate the ellipse axis for this image distortion please can anyone give few pointers here how transform the image appears would were the centre the screen and how deal with distortion due the shape the screen appreciate any help either posted emailed thanks advance simon simon marshall dept computer science university hull hull football isn about life and death more important than that bill email marshall hull phone fax shankley
comp.graphics	sphere from points article hcrlgw crl hitachi steve hcrlgw steven collins writes article qkgbuinns shelley washington edu bolson carson washington edu edward bolson writes boy this will embarassing trivial faq given points non coplanar how does one find the sphere that center and radius exactly fitting those points know how for circle from points but not immediately see straightforward way have checked some geometry books graphics gems and farin but still loss please have mercy and provide the solution wouldn this require hyper sphere space points over specifies sphere far can see unless that you can prove that point exists space that equi distant from the points and this may not necessarily happen correct wrong which quite possibly steve sorry call the four points and any three them must non collinear otherwise all three could not lie the surface sphere and all four must not coplaner otherwise either they cannot all lie sphere they define infinity them and define circle the perpendicular bisectors and meet point say which the centre this circle this circle must lie the surface the desired sphere consider the normal the plane abc passing through all points this normal are equidistant from and and its circle fact diameter the desired sphere take the plane containing this normal and lies the normal any plane containing the normal will this plane right angles the abc one let the point there are normally two them the circumference the abc circle which lies this plane need point the normal such that but the intersection the perpendicular bisector and the normal such point and exists since not the plane abc and not right angles the normal algorithm the sphere well defined check that and are not coincident failure find the line and check that does not lie failure find the plane abc and check that does not lie failure yes find its centre find the perpendicular bisectors and find their point intersection find the normal the plane abc passing through line find the plane containing and find the point the abc circle this plane lies take find the perpendicular bisector line find the point intersection and the centre the desired sphere pictures the plane abc right angles abc the plane containing and line numerically then will very close relative the radius the abc circle and subject error best choose that the least and larger than for any other choice bob douglas computing services university oxford internet bob oxford address banbury road oxford telephone
comp.graphics	polygon orientation dxf writing program convert dxf files database format used graphics program written program stores the points polygon ccw order used concepts little and seems that the points are stored the order they are drawn does the dxf format have way indicating which order the points are stored ccw its easy enough convert but don know which way they are stored dont know which direction the polygon should visible from dxf doesn handle this can anyone recommend workaround the best can think create two polygons for each one the dxf file one stored and the other ccw but that doubles the number polygons and decreases speed thanks advance for any help patrice hugo hydra unm edu
comp.graphics	fractals what good are they have been using iterated systems compression board compress pathology images and are getting ratios without too much loss quality taking about mins per image compress mhz but decompression almost real time software alone
comp.graphics	book found graphics covlir crockett its rpi edu locks writes hello happened spot excellent book bookstore about days ago though and assembly teaches you the assembly goes along you like and have assembler experience don worry has almost everything that wanted know and has working code rod covlin just bought copy can disagree that very good book but unfortunately was looking for the same graphics feature described this book but not mode easy accomodate all the pixel descriptor color attributes those modes into afffff but not which what interested haven finish the book but affraid the author didn talk much about this mode other svga modes anyone out there know any good book dealing with fast svga graphics manupulation scrolling repainting all other good stuff please send mail programming guide svga card also welcome thanks advance tiang foo tiang uokmax ecn uoknor edu tiang foo tiang uokmax ecn uoknor edu
comp.graphics	speedstar how program the truecolor mode hello purchased new with noname graphics card installed which obviously speedstar compatible its name vga truecolor accompanied with some drivers and the utilities vmode xmode and least one more mode well some drivers for lotus windows etc only one the drivers told provide the truecolor mode namely the windows driver nowhere else except the any pointer the truecolor mode some articles this group about the speedstar and some other facts made believe that card compatible that one does anybody out there know how this mode can adjusted how can write driver which allows have millions colors with resolution with interlaced greetings wolfgang
comp.graphics	info needed contour plotting everyone spend the money before goes away time here florida and need find some based software that will contour plotting with irregular boundaries profile soil system with pond superimposed given surfer pond trial run but interpolates contours out into the pond and creates artifacts the borders soil anyone out there knows product appreciate hearing about there enough response post summary thanks and now back lurking steve bloom soil water science sab gnv ifas ufl edu
comp.graphics	vesa standard vga svga programming have few question about graphics programming vga svga how vesa standard works any documentation for vesa standard higher resolution than vga mode where the video memory affff longer sufficient hold all info what the trick fast image manipulation heard about memory mapping video memory bank switching but know nothing how implemented any advice anyone interest mode should this mode called svga mode what the technique for fast image scrolling for the above mode how deal with different svga cards your guidance books any other sources the above questions would greatly appreciated please send mail thanks advance tiang foo tiang uokmax ecn uoknor edu tiang foo tiang uokmax ecn uoknor edu
comp.graphics	sphere from points from bolson carson washington edu edward bolson given points non coplanar how does one find the sphere that cnter and radius exactly fitting those points the equation the sphere through the points when this determininant expanded its first column you get the equation the form you need the center and radius jyst divide through cannot zero the given points form non degenerate tetrahedron and complete the square and obtain rcb slacvm slac stanford edu bob beach
comp.graphics	vesa the speedstar need vesa driver for the diamond speedstar that works tried several and none work for the hicolor modes john cormack cormackj access digex com
comp.graphics	delaunay triangulation article lsk inn caspian usc edu zyeh caspian usc edu zhenghao yeh writes does anybody know what delaunay triangulation there any reference useful for creating objects yes what the advantage there vast literature delaunay triangulations literally hundreds papers program even provided with every copy mathematica nowadays you might look this you are interested using for creating objects article boissonnat author boissonnat title geometric structures for three dimensional shape representation journal acm transactions graphics month october year volume number pages
comp.graphics	rumours about the does exist number was licensed philips make their own variant this chip includes extra featurfes such more ports bus making more microcontroller like because the confusion with numbering philips other products the range with the core have been given differend numbers like pcf pcd something
comp.graphics	gif bmp not sure this the correct place ask this question not please forgive and point the right direction does anybody know program that converts gif files bmp files and where can ftp from any help would greatly appreciated please respond via mail not read this group very often thanks scott
comp.graphics	point within polygon article apr bull scrowe hemel bull writes looking for algorithm determine given point bound polygon does anyone have any such code reference book containing information the subject regards simon function puntbinnenpolygoon auteur cornelis wessels datum omschrijving bepaalt aangeboden vector binnen rand van het polygoon valt wijzigingen clibstatus puntbinnenpolygoon polygoon vector vector index aantal snijpunten aantal snijpunten geefpolygoonlengte geefpolygoonrandpunt for geefpolygoonrandpunt interpoleerlineair return clibsucces else aantal snijpunten kopieervector aantal snijpunten return cliberbuiten else return clibsucces cornelis wessels krommenoord rotterdam the netherlands kewe bskewe atr bso
comp.graphics	any graphics packages available for aix apr sun res utc com mark sun res utc com mark stucky writes qninniag tahko lpr carel ari suutari ari tahko lpr carel wrote does anybody know there are any good graphics packages available for ibm aix looking for something like dec gks hewlett packards starbase both which have reasonably good support for different output devices like plotters terminals etc try graphigs from ibm excellent package doug doug egan not what you got lockheed engineering and sciences what you give houston tesla email egan blkbox com
comp.graphics	vesa standard vga svga programming how vesa standard works any documentation for vesa standard the vesa standard can requested from vesa vesa north first street suite san jose ask for the vesa vbe and super vga programming starndards vesa also defines local bus and other standards the vesa standard only addresses ways which application can find out info and capabilities specific super vga implementation and control the video mode selection and video memory access you still have set your own pixels higher resolution than vga mode where the video memory affff longer sufficient hold all info what the trick fast image manipulation heard about memory mapping video memory bank switching but know nothing how implemented any advice anyone vesa defines window that used access video memory this window anchored the spot where you want write and then you can write far the window takes you usually windows have granularities you can just anchor them anywhere also some implementations allow two windows interest mode should this mode called svga mode what the technique for fast image scrolling for the above mode how deal with different svga cards this vesa mode there set display start function that might useful for scrolling your guidance books any other sources the above questions would greatly appreciated please send mail your best bet write vesa for the info there have also been announcements this group vesa software karl schultz schultz vnet ibm com these statements opinions are not necessarily those ibm
comp.graphics	please recommend graphics library for mac rgc bcstec boeing com robert carpenter writes netters building cad package and need graphics library that can handle some rudimentry tasks such hidden line removal shading animation etc can you please offer some recommendations really not that hard there are books out there which explain everything and the basic functions translation rotation shading and hidden line removal are pretty easy wrote program few weeks witht help book and would happy give you source also quickdraw has lot functions built and think pascal can access them and would expect that think could well you can find out how use the quickdraw graphics library would excellent choice since has lot stuff and built into the mac should fast libertarian atheist semi anarchal techno rat define myself tsa cellar org
comp.graphics	questions about plane eqn method hidden surface removal what are the main advantages this method have seen described and the algiorithm seems little bit long developed own method which requires that the points counter clockwise order and returns whether you are looking the back the front similar the plane eqn method uses few calculations however basically several comparisons the only disadvantage see that must done after the transformation from view coordinates coordinates display the screen which means that little more calculation isneeded beforehand method basically figures out whether the points that will appear the screen are clockwise counterclockwise when looking the back something the points occur opposite direction from the front merely figuring out which way the points you can tell whether you are looking the back front polygon has anyone heard this method before simple doubt the first think libertarian atheist semi anarchal techno rat define myself tsa cellar org
comp.graphics	reprints have few reprints left chapters from book visions the future these include reprints chapters probably interest readers this forum including current techniques and development computer art franz szabo forging career sculptor from career computer programmer stewart dickson fractals and genetics the future joel jeffrey happy send out free reprints researchers for scholarly purposes until the reprints run out just send your name and address thanks cliff cliff watson ibm com
comp.graphics	church related graphics looking for some good quality graphics files which are suitable for use church related presentations prefer vector but anything would helpful you know bulletin boards which have collections this nature commercial products please inform email haston utkvx utk edu wayne haston
comp.graphics	fastest line circle drawing routines help all short looking for very fast assembly code for line circle drawing svga graphics complete thinking simple but fast molecular graphics program write clones ball and stick type reasons programs that seen are far too slow for this purpose platform class machine vga graphics speed important color for non rendering purpose enough may stay for speed reason hope the code would generic enough for different svga cards own card based trident not vesa what looking for fast very fast routines draw lines circles simple shapes above mentioned svga resolutions presumably assembly languagine yes very fast please related codes help rotating zooming animating the drawings screen drawings for beginning would lines circles mainly think text else later you know the way molecular graphics rotates zooms molecule and any other codes preferentially that can help the project final remarks non profit expected become share free ware any help appreciated thanks frankie lau tammy harvard edu pls also email may miss reply post
comp.graphics	rumours about article apr mercury unt edu sean mcmains mcmains unt edu writes article apr rchland ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado ricardo rchland vnet ibm com writes and cpu doesn help much either understand supposedly variation running something like mhz with this speed you truly need sprites wow very interested get hands one these especially considering the fact that motorola has not yet released the which supposedly the next the lineup sean the exists ricardo the animation playback which lawrence was referring earlier post plain old quicktime with the compact video codec seen digitized video some apple early commercials precise running centris about fps very nicely bit color depth would expect that using the same algorithm risc processor should able approach full screen full motion animation though you implied the processor will taxed more with highly dynamic material sean mcmains check out the gopher phone university north texas new bands info server fax box seanmac acs unt edu mail denton mcmains unt edu sean don want get into mini war what going say but have little bit skeptic about the performance you are claiming the centris you see why please flames reserve those for was chicago the last consumer electronics show and apple had booth there walked and they were showing real time video capture using radious supermac card digitize and make right the spot quicktime movies think the quicktime they were using was the old one they digitized guy talking there something played back quite nicely and real time the guy then expanded the window resized think and the frame rate decreased enough notice that wasn fps about fps anymore dropped like fps then increased just bit more and dropped fps then asked him what mac was using was using quadra don know what model and was telling the guys there that the quicktime could play back the same speed even lcii well spoiled his claim say since quadra mac was having little bit trouble and this wasn even from the hardisk this was from memory could that you saw either newer version quicktime some hardware assisted centris another software product running the animation like supposedly macromind accelerator don misunderstand just want clarify this but for the sake the posting about computer doing not can claim tad more with overscan being done colors computer not from the hardisk fps with scala but agree consider mpeg stuff think multimedia consumer low priced box has lot market just think would make longer raist new owner colors from bit palette love new low fat sig don mail don have valid address nor can send mail
comp.graphics	oak driver needed studio looking for the studio driver for the oak card with ram this would greatly and mean that appreciated maybe should have just gotten more well know card thanks seth acpub duke edu
comp.graphics	manipulating hexagonal grid lets say youve got grid hexagons that etc for total rows down that means there are hexagons the line lined underneath the second line lined underneath the third line lined under neath the fourht the problem given the center any arbritrary hexagon and line with and arbritrary slope which hexagons does that line cross through the line doesn necessarily have cross through the center other hexagon can even tangent and count any helpers friend was baffeled when trying figure this mohammad khan khan nova gmi edu after july please send mail mkhan nyx edu
comp.graphics	gif bmp scott zabolotzky saz hook corp mot com wrote not sure this the correct place ask this question not please forgive and point the right direction does anybody know program that converts gif files bmp files and where can ftp from any help would greatly appreciated please respond via mail not read this group very often thanks scott sorry scott you post here you can read here there shareware program available via anonymous ftp that will suit your needs you find oak oakland edu the subdirectory pub msdos graphics the file called grfwk zip tmc tmc spartan brocku
comp.graphics	looking for good book for beginners wanted know any you out there can recommend good book about graphics still and animated and vga svga thanks advance mohammad khan khan nova gmi edu after july please send mail mkhan nyx edu
comp.graphics	need some graphics help help trying program vga got working with pascal with the following routines for mode got vesa compatable trident meg and need program mode don care how many colors could someone take this code and help write new procedures replace them that work that great thanks here the code currently have for mode procedure graphmode begin videomode asm mov mov int end end videomode procedure plotpoint integer begin mem end david
comp.graphics	what reverse negative video interested simulating reverse negative color video mathematically what the transform simple reversal the hue value the hsv color space manipulation the yuv color space how related solarization you want see something truly wild turn the reverse video effect camcorder equipped and point the monitor this creates chaotic dynamical system whose phase space continuous along rotation zoom focus etc very very surprising and lovely like write simulation this effect without analog grunge thanks for any info you may have please mail any info post summary thanks lance norskog thinman netcom com data not information not knowledge not wisdom
comp.graphics	need good concave convex polygon algorithm article juyz aly murdoch acc virginia edu rws uvacs virginia edu richard stoakley writes need good concave convex polygon conversion routine tried couple without much luck please mail responses and will post summary any replies thank you richard stoakley rws uvacs virginia edu the problem not precisely defined above but you need find the smallest convex polygon that encloses given polygon then you are seeking the convex hull your original polygon there are two ways this use somewhat tricky but now well examined linear time algorithm that exploits the polygon boundary just feed the vertices the original polygon convex hull routine and accept log both methods are discussed preparata and shamos for example
comp.graphics	please recommend graphics library for mac tsa cellar org the silent assassin writes rgc bcstec boeing com robert carpenter writes can you please offer some recommendations really not that hard there are books out there which explain everything and the basic functions translation rotation shading and hidden line removal are pretty easy wrote program few weeks witht help book and would happy give you source think wanted avoid reinventing the wheel would suggest that you take your code and submit comp sys mac binaries distributed including the ftp sites many folks myself included would enjoy the extra code also quickdraw has lot functions built and think pascal can access them and would expect that think could well you can find out how use the quickdraw graphics library would excellent choice since has lot stuff and built into the mac should fast just clarify the routines that are mentioned various places the mac are libray not the rom the mac few years ago before knew anything about implementing graphics came across demo the apple grafsys library and actually did lot however quite limited the sense that low level library your code still has plot individual points draw each line etc nauseum has nothing for example where you can handle objects other things consider when talking about apple old grafsys library unsupported never was and plans exist the future undocumented unless you call header files documentation one knows something about graphics you could probably figure out but assume there better software available that gives better output and the same time programmatically nicer easier program just tax brent
comp.graphics	grayscale printer are interested purchasing grayscale printer that offers good resoltuion for grayscale medical images can anybody give some recommendations these products the market particular those under thank for the advice
comp.graphics	wingcommanderii graphics was wondering anyone knows where can get more information about the graphics the wingcommander series and the realspace system they use think really awesome and wouldn mind being able use similar features programs thanks advance daemon
comp.graphics	vision site and email unavailable used the information provided the recent resource listings and tried ftp ccu aukland ftp mac architec vision facet and received unknown host message mail paul bourke pdbourke ccu aukland bounces with basically the same problem where rick rick pavek never ask droid outdo its program kuryakin bcstec boeing com seattle wastes your time and annoys the droid
comp.graphics	apr computer graphics resource listing weekly part archive name graphics resources list part last modified computer graphics resource listing weekly posting part last change april plotting packages gnuplot one the best and plotting packages with online help command line driven interactive function plotting utility for unix msdos amiga archimedes and vms platforms least freely distributed supports many terminals plotters and printers and easily extensible include new devices was posted comp sources misc version plus patches you can practically find everywhere use archie find site near you the comp graphics gnuplot newsgroup devoted discussion gnuplot xvgr and xmgr ace xmgr plotting tool for unix workstations using openwindows there xview version called xvgr for suns collectively these tools are known ace compiling xmgr requires the motif toolkit version and xmgr will not compile under motif check ftp ccalmr ogi edu ccalmr pub acegr xmgr tar motif version ccalmr pub acegr xvgr tar xview version comments suggestions bug reports paul turner pturner amb ese ogi edu mail fails try pturner ese ogi edu due time constraints replies will few and far between robot release and limited based xview written fortran you need fortran compiler the translator mainly tested sun less decstations check ftp astro psu edu pub astrod plotting library this library fortran callable routines sunspot ceee nist gov xgobi being developed bellcore and its speciality are multidimensional data sets analysis and exploration you can call from the language also and works client using the athena widget set with ascii terminal distributed free charge from statlib cmu get via mail send email statlib temper stat cmu edu and the body area the message put the line send xgobi from general you want pick via ftp connect lib stat cmu edu log statlib and use your mail address your password then type general mget xgobi warning about sources large postscript manual read the relevant readme decide whether you need not pgplot runs vax vms and supposedly unix set fortran routines freely available though copyrighted and requiring nominal fee that includes contour plots and support for various devices including contact tjp deimos caltech edu ggraph host shorty wisc edu pub ggraph tar unknown more details epigraph for pcs call dvj lab phys lgu spb vladimir dmitriev for details you can get the program demo and play version sent budapest posta fiok hungary fax budapest multiplot xln for amigas shareware usd aust advanced package that has big list features contact alan baxter agb mbuc bio cam cambridge university department pathology tennis court road cambridge athena plotter widget set this version based gregory bond version beta added some stuff for scientific graphs log axes free scalable axes lineplots and some more and added plotter callbacks from request the current pointer position cut off rectangle from the plotting area for zooming version has log bugs fixed and log improvements against beta additionally did some other changes extensions besides origin and frame lines for axes subgrid lines subtic positions line plots different line types lines points lines points impulses lines impulses steps bars line styles solid dotted dashed dot dashed and marker types for data points legend the right left hand side the plot optional drawing pixmap instead window layout callback for aligning axis positions when using multiple plotters one application available export lcs mit edu directory contrib plotter sciplot sciplot scientific plotting and manipulation program for the next requires nextstep and shareware features ascii import and export eps export copy cut paste with data buffer free number data points data buffer and document window selective open and save plotting many styles automatic legend subviews linear and logarithmic axes two different axes text and graphic color support zoom normalizing and moving axis conversions free hand data manipulations cut edit move etc data editor sorting data absolute relative and free defined error bars calculating with buffers background subtractions linear shirley tougaard bezier integration and relative integration fitting one more free defined functions linear regression calculations sin cos log etc function generator spline interpolation least square smooth and fft smooth differentiation fft esca calculations and database and something more you can find ftp berlin pub next science sciplot tar author michael wesemann scillerstr berlin germany mike fiasko berlin mpg plplot plplot scientific plotting package for many systems small micro and large super alike despite its small size and quickness has enough power satisfy most users including standard plots semilog plots log log plots contour plots plots mesh plots bar charts and pie charts multiple graphs the same different sizes may placed single page with multiple lines each graph different line styles widths and colors are supported virtually infinite number distinct area fill patterns may used there are almost characters the extended character set this includes four different fonts the greek alphabet and host mathematical musical and other symbols the fonts can scaled any size for various effects many different output device drivers are available system dependent including portable metafile format and renderer freely available but copyrighted via anonymous ftp hagar utexas edu directory pub plplot present plplot known work the following systems unix sunos unicos ultrix other platforms vms amiga exec dos next authors many the main supporters are maurice lebrun mjl fusion utexas edu plplot kernel and the metafile xterm xwindow tektronix and amiga drivers geoff furnish furnish fusion utexas edu dos and drivers tony richardson amr egr duke edu plplot the next supermongo plotting package cmu filename tmp tar probably under the ftp cmu edu andrew cmu edu machines gle gle high quality graphics package for scientists runs variety platforms pcs vaxes and unix with drivers for xwindows regis tek graphics cards plotters postscript printers epson compatible printers and laserjet paintjet printers provides latex quality fonts well full support for postscript fonts the graphing module provides full control over all features graphs the graphics primitives include user defined subroutines for complex pictures and diagrams accompanying utilities include surface for hidden line surface plotting contour for contour plots manip for manipulation columnar data files and fitls for fitting arbitrary equations data mailing list glelist send message listserver tbone biol scarolina edu with message boyd containing sub glelist your name maintainer dean pentcheff dean tbone biol scarolina edu image analysis software image processing and display and mac based tools multi platform software imdisp imdisp written jpl and other nasa sites can simple display enhancing smoothing and works with the fits and vicar pds data formats nasa can read tiff images you know their dimensions and macs labview labview used framework for image processing tools provides graphical programming environment using block diagram sketch the program with graphical elements representing the programming elements hundreds functions are already available and are connected using wiring tool create the block diagram program functions that the block diagrams represent include digital signal processing and filtering numerical analysis statistics etc the tool allows any virtual instrument software file that looks and acts like real laboratory instrument used part any other virtual instrument national instruments markets plug digital signal processing dsp boards for macintoshs and compatables that allow real time acquisition and analysis personal computer new software tools for dsp are allowing engineers harness the power this technology the tools range from low level debugging software high level block diagram development software there are three levels dsp programming associated with the dsp board and labview use the dsp analysis library ffts power spectra filters routines callable from think and macintosh programers workshop mpw that execute the dsp board there analysis virtual interface library ready use vis optimized for the dsp use the national instruments developers toolkit that includes optimizing compiler assembler and linker for low level programming the dsp hardware this approach offers the highest level performance but the must difficult terms ease use use the national instruments interface kit software package which has utility functions for memory management data communications and downloading code the dsp board this the easiest route for the development custom code ultimage concept concept graftek france family image processing virtual instruments vis that give labview described above users high end tools for designing integrating and monitoring imaging control systems software file that looks and acts like real laboratory instrument typical applications for concept include thermography surveillance machine vision production testing biomedical imaging electronic microscopy and remote sensing ultimage concept addresses applications which require further qualitative and quantitative analysis includes complete set functions for image enhancement histogram equalization spatial and frequency filtering isolation features thresholding mathematical morphology analysis density measurement object counting sizing and characterization the program loads images with minimum resolution pixel depth bits and one image plane standard input and output formats include pict tiff satie and aipd other formats can imported image enhancement features include lookup table transformations spatial linear and non linear filters frequency filtering arithmetic and logic operations and geometric transformations among others morphological transformations include erosion dilation opening closing hole removal object separation and extraction skeletons among others quantitative analysis provides for objects detection measurement and morphological distribution measures include area perimeter center gravity moment inertia orientation length relevant chords and shape factors and equivalence measures are saved ascii format the program also provides for macro scripting and integration custom modules view command plots perspective data graph where image intensity depicted mountains valleys the plot the histogram tool can plotted with either linear logarithmic scale the twenty eight arithmetic and logical operations provide for masking and averaging sections images noise removal making comparisons etc there are spatial filters that alter pixel intensities based local intensity these include high pass filters for contrast and outlines the frequency data resulting from fft analysis can displayed either the real imaginary components the phase magnitude data the morphological transformations are useful for data sharpening and defining objects for removing artifacts the transformations include thresholding eroding dilating and even hole filling the program quantitative analysis measurements include area perimeter center mass object counts and angle between points gtfs inc bennett valley road santa rosa iplab spectrum iplab spectrum supports image processing and analysis but lacks the morphology and quantitative analysis features provided graftek franceus ultimage concept using scripting tools the user tells the system the operations performed the problem that far too many basic operations require manual intervention the tool supports ffts arithmetic operations for pixel alteration and movie command for cycling through windows macintosh based tools ncsa image ncsa paledit and more ncsa provides whole suite public domain visualization tools for the macintosh primarily aimed researchers wanting visualize results from numerical modelling calculations these applications documentation and source code are available for anonymous ftp from ftp ncsa uiuc edu commercial versions the ncsa programs have been developed spyglass spyglass inc devonshire drive champaign fax nih image available alw nih gov preferably zippy nimh nih gov directory pub image has painting and image manipulation tools macro language tools for measuring areas distances and angles and for counting things using frame grabber card can record sequences images played back movie can invoke user defined convolution matrix filters such gaussian can import raw data tab delimited ascii byte quantities also does histograms and even plots limited bits pixel though the bits map into color lookup table runs any mac that has color screen and fpu get the nonfpu version from zippy nimh nih gov photomac data translation inc locke marlboro photopress blue solutions marigold place thousand oaks pixeltools and tcl image complete family pixeltools hardware accelerator and applications software for scientific image processing and analysis video rate capture display processing and analysis high resolution monochromatic and color images includes source code tcl image software package for scientific quantitative image processing and analysis provides complete language for the capture enhancement and extraction quantitative information from gray scale images tcl image has over functions for image processing and contains the other elements needed full programming language for algorithm development variables and control structures easily extensible through script indirect command files these script files are simply text files that contain tcl image commands they are executed normal commands and include the ability pass parameters the direct capture video images supported via popular frame grabber boards tcl image comes with the view utility that provides conversion between common image file types such pict and tiff perceptics pellissippi parkway knoxville satellite image workshop comes with number satellite pictures raw data and does all sorts image enhancing you need least mac with processor color display and large harddisk the program doesn run under system ate the documentation the contact address given liz smith jet propulsion laboratory oak grove pasadena visualization workbench electronic imaging software system that performs interactive image analysis and scientific and plotting paragon imagine lincoln lowell adobe photoshop the tool supports rtrue colors with bit images levels grey scale once image has been imported can rre toucheds with various editing tools typical those used macintosh based rpaints applications these include eraser pencil brush and air brush advanced rpastes tools that control the interaction between pasted selection and the receiving site have also been incorporated for example all red pixels selection can easily preventing from being pasted photoshop has transparencies ranging from allowing you create ghost overlays rphoto editings tools include control the brightness and contrast color balancing hue saturation modification and spectrum equalization images can subjected various signal processing algorithms smooth sharpen the image blur edges locate edges image scaling also supported for storage savings the images can compressed using standard algorithms including externally supplied compression such jpeg availlable from storm technologies the latest version adobe photoshop supports the import numerous image formats including epsf epsf tiff pict resource amiga iff ilbm compuserve gif macpaint pixar pixelpaint scitex tga and thunderscan adobe systems inc charlestown road box mountain view colorstudio and imagestudio colorstudio image editing and paint package from letraset that has more features than adobe photoshop but decidedly more complex and therefore more difficult use several steps are often required accomplish that which can done single step using photoshop the application requires great deal available disk space one can easily end with images the range the program provides variety powerful selection tools including the auto selection tool which lets the user choose image areas the basis color close hues color range and mask imagestudio don know letraset usa eisenhower drive paramus dapple systems high resolution image analysis software provides processing tools work with multiple images enhance and edit and measure variety global feature parameters and interpret the data dapple systems olive ave sunnyvale digital darkroom the latest release digital darkroom has five new selection and editing tools for enhancing images one such feature allows the user select part image simply painting new polyline selection tool creates selection tool for single pixel wide selections brush lets the operator paint with selected portion the image note that this not true color image enhancement tool this tool should used when the user intends operate grey scale images only should noted that digital darkroom not powerful either adobe photoshop colorstudio silicon beach software carroll ctr suite san diego dimple compatible with system and system requires mac series with colours with recommended min ram has the capability reading erdas files functions include image enhancement and contour plots image statistics supervised and unsupervised classification pca and other image transformations there also means image operation language iol which you can write your own transformations there image rectification however dimple compatable with mapii the latest version and the beta stage testing dimple was initially developed teaching tool and very good for this purpose dimple runs colour macintosh product still its development phase doesn have all the inbuilt features other packages but coming along nicely has its own inbuilt language for writing programs for processing image defining convolution filters etc dimple full mac application with pull down menus etc unprotected software process software solutions box wollongong new south wales australia phone fax enhance enhance has rrulers tool that supports measurements and additionally provides angle data the tool has over mathematical filter variations laplacian medium noise filter etc files can saved either tiff pict epsf text however epsf files can imported microfrontier hickman road des moines image analyst image processing product for users who need extract quantitative data from video images image analyst lets users configure sophisticated image processing and measurement routines without the necessity knowing programming language designed for such tasks computing number and size cells images projected video cameras attached microscopes enhancing and measuring distances radiographs image analyst provides users with array field proven video analysis techniques that enable them easily assemble sequence instructions enhance feature appearance count objects determine density shape size position movement perform object feature extraction and conduct textural analysis automatically image analyst works with either framegrabber board and any standard video camera disk stored image within minutes without the need for programming the image analyst user can set process identify and analyze any element image measurements and statistics can automatically semi automatically generated from tiff pict files from captured video tape images image analyst recognizes items images based their size shape and position the tool provides direct support for the data translation and scion frame grabbers menu command allows for image capture from vcr video camera other ntsc pal devices there are types files the image itself and the related sequence file that holds the processing measurements and analysis that the user defines automated sequences are set regions interest roi represented movable sizable boxes atop the image inside roi the program can find the distance between two edges the area shape the thickness wall etc image analyst finds the center edge and other positions automatically the application also provides tools that the user can work interactively find the edge object also supports histograms and color look table clut tool automatix inc middlesex turnpike billerica iplab signal analytics corp maple ave vienna fax menu driven image processing software that supports bit color pseudocolor grayscale image display and manipulation map among the mac gis systems map distributed john wiley has integrated image analysis image from stanford try anonymous ftp from sumex aim stanford edu has source for image and ready run code for mac under image windows dos based tools ccd richard berry ccd imaging book for willamon bell contains optional disks with image manipulating software source code included erdas erdas will all the things you want rectification classification transformations canned user defined overlays filters contrast enhancement etc was using thesis then changed the topic bit that work became secondary erdas inc buford highway suite atlanta fax rsvga have been getting speed program called rsvga available from eidetic digital image ltd british columbia its for ibm clones cheap about and does all the stuff erdas does but not fast powerful though have had only limited experience with erdas have used rsvga with landsat bands and good starter program except for the obtuse manual imagine bit package suppose for pcs called imagine image the program does modest amount image processing add subtract multiply divide display and plot cut across the image can also display number images simultaneously the company compuscope santa barbara vista was announced the august edition pasp known available from mike richmond whose email addresses have been richmond bllac berkeley edu richmond bkyast berkeley edu and his mail address michael richmond astronomy department campbell hall berkeley the latest version vista version includes not only the source code and help files but also complete set executable programs and number sample fits images you wish use the source code you will need microsoft version later other compilers may work but will require substantial modifications receive the documentation and nine double density floppies three quad density inch floppies with everything them just send request for vista together with your name and mail address office technology licensing shattuck ave suite berkeley include check traveller checks are fine purchase order for dollars your address inside the continental otherwise made out regents the university california cover duplication and mailing costs software tools set software tools put out canyon state systems and software they are not free but rather cheap about heard will handle most all the formats used frame grabber software mirage image processing software written jim gunn the astrophysics dept princeton will run among other platforms forth based system forth language with many image processing displaying functions built data translation source book the data translation company massachusetts publishes free book containing vendors data analysis hardware and software which compatible with data translation and other frame grabbers surely you can find much more related stuff maxen couple canadians have written program named maxen which does maximum entropy image deconvolution their company named digital signal processing software something like that and the software mentioned article astronomy magazine either jan feb article ccd film jandel scientific java another software package java put out jandel scientific jandel scientific koch road corte madera microbrian runs dos platform and uses bit graphics card vista about released version will support number super vga cards its full blown remote sensed data processing system menu driven character based screen but does not use windowed user interface its hardware protected with dongle mbrian micro barrier reef image anaysis system was developed csiro commonwealth scientific industrial organization and marketed supported mpa australia lusher road croydon victoria tel fax there are educational and commercial prices but prepared set aside for the first educational licence subsequent ones come cheaper they need has installed sites worldwide widely used anu microimage the remote sensing lab here dartmouth currently uses terra mar microimage pcs with some fancy display hardware terra mar resource information services inc landings drive mountain view fax unix based tools iraf image reduction and analysis facility developed the national optical astronomy observatory kitt peak free you can ftp from tucana noao edu and complement with stsdas from stsci edu email iraf noao edu for more details apparently this one the facto standards the astronomical image community they issue newsletter also they seem support very well their users works with vms also last heard and practically has its own shell top the vms unix shells suggested that you get copy saoimage for display under windows very flexible extendable tons literally linear feet documentation for the general user skilled user and programmer alv sun specific image toolkit version posted comp sources sun dec also available via email alv users request bris aips astronomical image processing system contact aipsmail nrao edu also see the usenet newsgroups alt sci astro aips and sci astro fits built nrao national radio astronomy observatory charlottesville sites software distributed track exabyte dat non anonymous internet ftp documentation postscript mostly available via anonymous ftp baboon nrao edu directory pub aips and pub aips text publ installation requires building the system and thus fortran and compiler this package can read and write fits data see sci astro fits and primarily for reduction analysis and image enhancement radio astronomy data from radio telescopes particularly the very large array vla synthesis instrument consists almost programs that everything from copying data sophisticated deconvolution via maximum entropy there based image tool xas and tek compatible xterm based graphics tool built into aips the xas tool modelled after the hardware functionality the international imaging systems model display unit and can image arithmetic etc the code mostly fortran with some system language modules and available for suns ibm dec ultrix convex cray unicos and alliant with support planned for solaris and maybe sgi there currently project aips underway rewrite the algorithmic functionality aips modern setting using and object oriented approach whereas aips proprietary code licensed for free non profit institutions owner nrao and the nsf aips will the public domain some level international effort with contributions from the canada england the netherlands india and australia name few laboimage version out for written and currently runs sun xxx sun xxx and under sunview the expert system for image segmentation written allegro common lisp was used the following domains computer science image analysis medicine biology physics distributed free charge source code available via anonymous ftp ftp ads com pub vision list archive shareware laboimage contact prof thierry pun computer vision group computing science center geneva rue lac geneva switzerland phone fax mail pun cui unige pun cgeuge bitnet figaro was originally made for vms and can obtained from keith shortridge australia aaoepp aao gov and for unix from sam southard caltech sns deimos caltech edu about mbytes sun khoros moved the scientific visualization category below vista the real thing available via anonymous ftp from lowell edu email vista lowell edu for more details total size less than mbytes disimp device independent software for image processing powerful system providing both user friendliness and high functionality interactive times feature description disimp incorporates rich library image processing utilities and spatial data options all functions can easily accessed via the disimp executive this menu modular design and groups image processes their function such logical structure means that complicated processes are simply progression through series modules processes include image rectification classification unsupervised and supervised intensity transformations three dimensional display and principal component analysis disimp also supports the more simple and effective enhancement techniques filtering band subtraction and ratioing host configuration requirements running unix workstations disimp capable processing the more computational intensive techniques interactive processing times disimp available both runtime and programmer environments using the programmers environment utilities can developed for specific applications programs graphics are governed icon based display panel which allows quick enhancments displayed image manipulations look tables colour stretches changes histograms zooming and panning can interactively driven through this control range geographic projections enables disimp integrate data image graphic and textual types images can rectified number coordinate systems providing the true geographic knowledge essential for ground truthing overlays grids text and vector data can added further enhance referenced imagery the system flexible package allowing users various skill levels determine their own working environment including the amount help required disimp comes fully configured with optional extras the purchase price includes all functionality required for professional processing remote sensed data for further information please contact the business manager clough engineering group systems division chapel street south yarra australia telephone fax global imaging software use global imaging software process avhrr data from the dish the final display select chunk five band data from pass automatic navigation calibrate albedo and temp convert that byte register predesigned window all relatively automatically and carefree has classification routines speak but isn that difficult write your own with their programmer module very small operation one designs one codes one sells been around for number years sold weather service and navy runs with supports bit display hips human information processing laboratory image processing system michael landy wrote and sell general purpose package for image processing which has been used for basically all the usual image processing applications robotics medical satellite engineering oil exploration etc called hips and deals with sequences multiband images the same way deals with single images has been growing since first wrote both additions from well huge user contributed library feature description hips set image processing modules which together provide powerful suite tools for those interested research system development and teaching handles sequences images movies precisely the same manner single frames programs and subroutines have been developed for simple image transformations filtering convolution fourier and other transform processing edge detection and line drawing manipulation digital image compression and transmission methods noise generation and image statistics computation over such image transformation programs have been developed result almost any image processing task can performed quickly and conveniently additionally hips allows users easily integrate their own custom routines new users become effective using hips their first day hips features images that are self documenting each image stored the system contains history the transformations that have been applied that image hips includes small set subroutines which primarily deals with standardized image sequence header and large library image transformation tools the form unix filters comes complete with source code line manual pages and line documentation host configuration requirements originally developed new york university hips now represents one the most extensive and flexible vision and image processing environments currently available runs under the unix operating system modular and flexible provides automatic documentation its actions and almost entirely independent special equipment hips now use variety computers including vax and microvax sun apollo masscomp ncr tower iris ibm etc for image display and input drivers are supplied for the grinnell and adage ikonas image processors and the sun sun sun and sun consoles also supply user contributed drivers for number other framestores and windowing packages sun gfx sun console matrox vip iti lexidata macintosh windowing system and iris the hipsaddon package includes interface for the crs simple matter interface hips with other frame stores and can put interested users touch with users who have interfaced hips with the arlunya and datacube max video hips can easily adapted for other image display devices because hips machine independent availability hips has proven itself highly flexible system both interactive research tool and for more production oriented tasks both easy use and quickly adapted and extended new uses hips supplied magnetic tape unix tar format either reel reel sun cartridge and comes with source code libraries library convolu tion masks and line documentation and manual pages michael landy sharpimage software box prince street station new york voice fax msl cns nyu edu mira please don confuse that with the thalmanns animation system from montreal these are altogether different beasts nfotis mira stands for microcomputer image reduction and analysis mira gives workstation level performance dos computers using svga cards color modes mira contains very handsome functional gui which mouse and keystroke operated mira reads writes tiff and fits formats native formats number ccd cameras and uncompressed binary images byte short integer and byte real pixel format dimensions the result image processing operation can short integer real pixels the same that the input image mira does the operation using short floating point arithmetic maintain the precision and accuracy the pixel format over functions are hand coded assembly language for maximum speed the intel hardware the entire graphical interface also written assembly language maximize the speed windowing operations windows for image and image data display and analysis have dedicated cursors which read position and value value real time you move the mouse there are also smooth real time contrast and brightness stretch and panning magnified portion the displayed image all operated the mouse wide selection grayscale pseudocolor and random palettes provided and other palettes can generated supported functions include such niceties the following image image interpolation image constant unary operations abs value polynomial pixel value chs log byteswap clip values upper lower limits short real real short combine images mean median mode sum pixel values with without autoscaling mean median mode image section convolutions filters laplacian sobel edge operator directional gradient line gaussian elliptical and rectangular equal weight filters unsharp masking median filters user defined filter kernel ellipse rectangle line gradient gaussian and user defined filters can rotated any specified angle ccd data reduction flat fielding dark subtraction column over underscan bias removal remove bad pixels and column defects normalize region target mean median modal value create subimage mosaic images get larger image collapse image into image plot section collapsed section image plot histogram region image review change image information header data rename keywords plot keyword values for set images luminance photometry elliptical circular aperture photometry brightness profile isophotal photometry between set upper lower luminances area and luminance inside traced polygon interactive background fitting and removal from part all image fit elliptical aperture shape image isophotes interactive with image contrast brightness diagonal plot pixel values distance between two points compute region stats centroid pan location image center zoom times change cursor rectangle crosshair full image crosshair off and adjust cursor size image select linear log gamma transfer function histogram equalization interactive specified image offset computation and sampling for registration interactive with image zoom both steps times current center plot enlarge framed area plot buffers can cycled through interactive data analysis polynomial fitting point deletion undelete change value point weighting linear and quadratic loess and binomial smoothing revert unit point weights original data buffer substitute results into data buffer for pass back calling function dump data buffer overlays and error bars file printer change user specified coordinate system tricolor image combination and display hardcopy halftone printout pcl compatible printers laserjet deskjet etc documentation over pages custom vinyl binder cost usd copy available from axiom research inc box tucson phone fax international marketing rep saguaro scientific corporation tucson arizona end part the resource listing nick nikolaos fotis national technical univ athens greece home esperidon internet nfotis theseas ntua halandri uucp mcsun ariadne theseas nfotis athens greece fax
comp.graphics	apr computer graphics resource listing weekly part archive name graphics resources list part last modified computer graphics resource listing weekly posting part last change april scene generators geographical data maps data files dems digital elevation models dems digital elevation models well other cartographic data huge available from spectrum xerox com pub map contact lee moore webster research center xerox corp voice arpa internet moore wbst xerox com check also ncgia ucsb edu pub dems nfotis many these files are also available rom selled usgs scale digital line graph dlg data contains datas for all states price about call visit offices menlo park reston virginia usa maps the data user services division the bureau the census also has data rom tso standard format that derived from usgs map data call for more info they have bbs from dobbs march the defense mapping agency cooperation with their counterpart agencies canada the and australia have released the digital chart the world dcw this chart consists over gigabytes reasonable quality vector data distributed four roms includes coastlines rivers roads railrays airports cities towns spot elevations and depths and over place names iso compatible and only available from geological survey box denver federal center denver digital distribution services energy mines and resources canada booth street ottawa canada director general military survey survey elmwood avenue feltham middlesex united kingdom director survey australian army department defense campbell park offices campbell act australia fractal landscape generators public domain many people have written fractal landscape generators for example for the mac some these generators were written pdbourke ccu aukuni paul bourke many the programs are available from the ftp sites and mail archive servers check with archie commercial vista pro for the amiga from virtual reality labs list price about their address vrl ganador court san luis obispo telephone fax scenery animator also for the amiga the same caliber with vista pro check with natural graphics box raklin phone don forget ask about companion programs and data disks tapes vista pro has been ported the pcs cia world map note this database quite out date and not topologically structured you need standard for world cartographic data wait for the digital chart the world this database has been produced from the defense mapping agency oncs and will available together with searching and viewing software number roms later this summer check into hanauma stanford edu and ucsd edu see ftp list above the cia database consists coastlines rivers and political boundaries the form line strokes also hanauma stanford edu array elevation data containing one ieee floating point number for every half degree longitude and latitude program for decoding the database mfil can found the machine arc umn edu there another program which reads compressed cia data bank file and builds phigs hierachical structure uses phigs extension known polyline sets for performance but you can use regular polylines ask joe stewart joes lpi liant com the raw data stanford require the vplot package able view was posted comp sources unix more exact you have compile just the libvplot routines not the whole package ncar data ncar national center for atmospheric research has many types terrain data ranging from elevation datasets various resolutions information about soil types vegetation etc this data not free they charge from more depending the data volume and media exabyte tape cartridge track tape ibm floppy and ftp transfer are all available their data archive mostly research oriented not hobbyist oriented for more information email ilana ncar ucar edu unc data tapes with voxel data there are public domain tapes with data for the comparison and testing various volume rendering algorithms mainly mri and scans these tapes are distributed the softlab unc chapel hill softlab unc edu the data sets volume and are also available via anonymous ftp from omicron unc edu pub softlab chvrtd nasa many agencies such nasa publish roms with many altimetry data from various space missions viking for mars magellan for venus etc especially for nasa would suggest call the following address for more info national space science date center goddard space flight center greenbelt maryland telephone email address request nssdca gsfc nasa gov the data catalog not the data itself available online internet users can telnet nssdca gsfc nasa gov and log nodis password you can also dial baud bits parity one stop the enter number prompt enter and carriage return when the system responds call complete enter few more carriage returns get the username and log nodis password nssdca also anonymous ftp site but comprehensive list what there available present earth sciences data there listing anonymous ftp sites for earth science data including imagery this listing called earth sciences resources internet and you can get via anonymous ftp from csn org the directory cogs under the name internet resources earth sci some sites include aurelie soest hawaii edu pub avhrr images avhrr images ames arc nasa gov pub space cdrom images from magellan and viking missions etc pub space index contains listing files available the whole archive the index about itself there also mail server for the people without internet access send letter archive server ames arc nasa gov ames archive server the subject your letter the body use commands like send space index send space shuttle capitalization important only text files are handled the email server present vab larc nasa gov pub gifs misc landsat landsat photos gif and jpeg format was shut down nfotis anyone has copy this archive others daily values river discharge streamflow and daily weather data available from earthinfo central ave boulder these disks are expensive around but there are quantity discounts check vmd cso uiuc edu the directory carries data regarding surface analysis weather radar and sat view pics gif format updated hourly pioneer unm edu the space and planetary image facility located the university new mexico campus ftp server provides anonymous ftp access roms with data images disk with earthquake data topography gravity geopolitical info available from ngdc national geophysical data center broadway boulder eosat least the now sells landsat mss data older than two years old for per scene and they have been talking about similar deal for landsat data the mss data are bands meter resolution check out anonymous ftp ftp ncsa uiuc edu unix polyview alpha shape for tool that creates convex hulls alpha shapes generalization the convex hull from point sets the grips gov raster image processing software rom available from rom inc for code for viewing adrg arc digitised raster graphics files available the grips rom the army engineer topographic labs juan perez code also available via ftp adrg zip archive spectrum xerox com nrcc range data rioux cournoyer the nrcc three dimensional image data files tech report cnrc national research council canada ottawa canada from what understand these data are from laser range finder and you can copy for research purposes scanners digitized data cyberware labs monterey manufactures color laser digitizer which can used model parts complete human body they run service bureau also they can digitize models for you address cyberware labs inc harris suite monterey phone fax polhemus makes input device actually couple models that senses position and orientation based electromagnetic field interference this equipment also incorporated the vpl dataglove this hardware also called isotrack from keiser aerospace ascension technology makes similar input device there company applied sciences that makes input device position only based speed sound triangulation company that specializes digitizing viewpoint you can ask for viewpoint free page catalog full ready ship datasets from categories such cars anatomy aircraft sports boats trains animals and others though these objects are quite expensive the cataloge nevertheless interest for has pictures all the available objects wireframe polygon mesh contact viewpoint west center orem utah fax dataset some addresses for companies that make digitizers ascension technology bird flock birds big bird trackers box burlington phone fax polhemus incorporated digitizer trackers box hercules colchester tel logitech inc red baron ultrasonic mouse kaiser freemont tel shooting star technology mechanical headtracker holdom ave burnaby canada tel fax spaceball technologies inc spaceball stationary input device suffolk street lowell tel fax tel mountain view transfinite systems gold brick powerglove for macintosh box mit branch post office cambridge tel email applelink apple com vpl research inc eyephone head mounted display dataglove glove hand input device vpl research inc tower lane floor foster city tel fax simgraphics engineering flying mouse input device huntington suite south pasadena background imagery textures datafiles first check the ftp places that are mentioned the faq the ftp list above bit scanning get good bit scanner like epson suggested scsi port for speed eric haines had suggestion news volume scan textures for wallpapers and floor coverings etc from doll house supplies you have rather cheap way scan patterns that don have scaling troubles associated with real materials and scanning area books with textures find some houses books magazines that carry photographic material educorp sells roms with various imagery also wide variety stock art available stock art from big name stock art houses such comstock uniphoto and metro image base available italy there company called belvedere that makes such books for the purpose clipping their pages for inclusion your graphics work their address edition belvedere ltd rome italy piazzale flaminio tel fax texture libraries mannikin sceptre graphics announced textiles set bit textures initial shipments bit iff for amigas soon bit tiff format algorithmically built for tiled surfaces srp volume each volume images disks demo disks for are available contact mannikin sceptre graphics indiana ave winter park phone fax essence library sixty five new algoritmic textures for imagine impulse inc these textures are fully compatible with the floating point versions imagine imagine and even turbo silver written steve worley for more info contact essence info apex software publishing camino real suite menlo park usa what about texture city introduction rendering algorithms ray tracing assume you have general understanding computer graphics then read some the books that the faq contains for ray tracing would suggest introduction ray tracing andrew glassner academic press isbn note that have not read the book but feel that you can wrong using his book errata list was posted comp graphics eric haines erich eye com there more concise reference also roman kuchkuda unc chapel hill introduction ray tracing theoretical foundations for computer graphics and cad earnshaw nato vol printed springer verlag contains code for small but fundamentally complete ray tracer buffer depth buffer good reference procedural elements for computer graphics david rogers mcgraw hill new york pages and others more info needed nfotis where can find the geometric data for the teapot displays display column ieee jan has the whole story about origin the martin newell teapot the article also has the bezier patch model and pascal program display the wireframe model the teapot ieee sep jim blinn column jim blinn corner describes another way model the teapot bezier curves with rotations for example are used the off and spd packages have these objects you advised get them avoid typing the data yourself the off data triangles specific resolution around triangles meshing per patch the spd package provides the spline patch descriptions and performs tessellation any specified resolution space shuttle tolis lerios tolis nova stanford edu has built list space shuttle datafiles here summary from his sci space list model modified version the newsgroup model model vertices useful referred the polygon descriptions polygons vertex vertex vertex vertex payload doors non existent units unknown simon marshall marshall sequent hull has copy said there proprietary information associated with model the newsgroup model off format you can find gondwana ecr file pub off objects shuttle geo hanauma stanford edu pub graphics comp graphics objects shuttle data model the triangles model this model stored several files each defining portions the model greg henderson henders infonode ingr com has copy did not mention any restriction the model distribution model the nasa model the file starts off with header line containing three real numbers defining the offsets used lockheed their simulations offset offset offset from then the file consists sequence polygon descriptions vertices polygons vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex payload doors closed units inches jon berndt jon jsc nasa gov seems responsible for the model proprietary info unknown model the old shuttle model the file consists sequence polygon descriptions vertices polygons vertex vertex payload doors open units meters have been using this model star labs stanford university for some years now contact tolis nova stanford edu supervisor scott williams scott star stanford edu you want copy image annotation software touchup runs sunview and pretty good reads rasterfiles but even your image isn normally stored rasterfile format you could use screendump make rasterfile idraw part stanford interviews distribution can handle some image formats addition being macdraw like tool not sure exactly what they are you can ftp the idraw binary from interviews stanford edu tgif another macdraw like tool that can handle bitmap xbm and pixmap xpm formats the image you have formats other than xbm xpm you can get the pbmplus toolkit convert things like gif even some macintosh formats xpm tgif sources are available the pub directory ucla edu version tgif patchlevel plus patch and patch use the editimage facility khoros see below this just one utility the overall system you can essentially all your image processing and macdraw type graphics using this package you might able get with pbmplus pbmtext gives you text output bitmaps which can overlaid top your image ice requires sun hardware running openwindows postscript based graphical editor and available for anonymous ftp from internet host soest hawaii edu requires sun and two other locally developed packages the lxt library xlib based toolkit and small class library all files pub ice tar pub lxt tar and pub ldgoc tar are available compressed tar format pub ice tar contains readme that gives installation instructions well extensive man page ice statically linked compressed executable pub ice sun for sparc systems also available for ftp all software the property columbia university and may not redistributed without permission ice means image composition environment and imaging tool that allows raster images combined with wide variety postscript annotations wysiwyg fashion via imaging routines and news postscript rasterizing use imagemagick annotate image from your server pick the position your text with the cursor and choose your font and pen color from pull down menu imagemagick can read and write many the more popular image formats imagemagick available export lcs mit edu contrib imagemagick tar your nearest archive scientific visualization stuff data slice xds bundled with the distribution from mit the contrib directory available ftp ncsa uiuc edu either source binaries for various platforms national center for supercomputing applications ncsa tool suite platforms unix workstations dec ibm sgi sun apple macintosh cray supercomputers availability now available source code the public domain ftp from ftp ncsa uiuc edu contact national center for supercomputing applications computing applications building springfield ave champaign cost free zero dollars the suite includes tools for image and scene analysis and visualization the code actively maintained and updated spyglass they sell commercial versions the ncsa tools examples are spyglass dicer volumetric data analysis package platform mac spyglass transform data analysis package platforms mac sgi sun dec ibm contact spyglass inc box champaign khoros patch available via anonymous ftp pprg eece unm edu pub khoros see what available huge but good needs unix and freely copied not complete with sources and docs very extensive and its heart visual programming khoros components include visual programming language code generators for extending the visual language and adding new application packages the system interactive user interface editor interactive image display package extensive library image and signal processing routines and plotting packages see comp soft sys khoros usenet and the relative faq for more info contact the khoros group room eece dept university new mexico albuquerque email khoros request chama eece unm edu macphase analysis visualization application for the macintosh operates and data arrays import export several different file formats several different plotting options such gray scale color raster wire frame surface contour vector line and combinations ffts filtering and other math functions color look editor array calculator etc shareware available via anonymous ftp from sumex aim stanford edu the info mac app directory for other information contact doug norton mail compuserve com iris explorer application creation system developed silicon graphics that provides visualisation and analysis functionality for computational scientists engineers and other scientists the explorer gui allows users build custom applications without having write any minimal amount traditonal code also existing code can easily integrated into the explorer environment explorer currently available now sgi and cray machines but will become available other platforms time bundled with every new sgi machine far know see comp graphics explorer comp sys sgi for discussion the package there are also two ftp servers for related stuff modules etc ftp epcc swedishchef lerc nasa gov mirror the site ape back the old good days you could get ape for nearly free now has gone commercial and the following vendor supplies taravisual corporation harrison avenue columbus ohio tel and fax cost plus tax runtime version with site license for single user time limit the number machines cluster includes support maintenance and upgrades source code more additional user licenses the name the package has become ape iii khoros very similar ape philosophy are avs and explorer avs see also comp graphics avs platforms convex cray dec evans sutherland ibm kubota set technologies sgi stardent sun wavetracer availability avs available all the above for all unix workstations contact advanced visual systems inc fifth ave waltham telephone fax avs avs com email advanced visual systems inc for cray ibm sgi stardent sun convex for convex advanced visual systems inc cray for cray dec for dec evans sutherland for evans sutherland advanced visual systems inc ibm for ibm kubota pacific inc for kubota set technologies for set technologies wavetracer for wavetracer ftp site for modules data sets other info avs ncsc org wit nutshell package the same genre avs explorer etc seems more image processing system than generic scivi system imho major elements are visual programming language which automatically exploits the inherent parallelism code generator which converts the graph standalone program iconified libraries present rich set point filter transform morphological segmentation and measurement operations flow library allows graphs employ broadcast merge synchronization conditional and sequencing control strategies wit delivers object oriented distributed visual programming environment which allows users rapidly design solutions their imaging problems users can consolidate both software and hardware developments within complete cad like workspace adding their own operators functions objects data structures and servers specialized hardware wit runs sun sgi and supports datacube hardware allowing you run your graphs real time for free wit demo disk call fax mail poon ubc stating your complete name address voice fax mail info and desired platform pricing wit for sparc one free upgrades days technical support academic institutions discounts available contact logical vision ltd suite gilmore way burnaby canada tel fax terry arden poon ubc vis system for visually exploring the output gridded data sets such those made weather models platforms sgi iris with vgx gtx graphics sgi crimson indigo elan graphics suggested irix ibm with graphics aix version later stardent and with truecolor display any case more ram are suggested you can get freely thanks nasa support via anonymous ftp ftp iris ssec wisc edu ftp then ftp pub vis ftp ascii ftp get readme ftp bye note you can find the package also wuarchive wustl edu the graphics graphics packages directory read section the readme file for full instructions how get and install vis contact bill hibbard whibbard vms macc wisc edu brian paul bpaul vms macc wisc edu dataexplorer ibm platforms ibm risc system ibm power visualization server simd mesh mhz working announced sgi sun contact your local ibm rep for trial package ask your rep contact david kilgore data explorer product marketing yktvmh kilcore wavefront data visualizer personal visualizer advanced visualizer platforms sgi sun ibm dec availability available all the above platforms from wavefront technologies educational programs and site licenses are available contacts mike wilson mike wti com wavefront technologies inc east montecito street santa barbara fax wavefront europe guldenspoorstraat gent belgium fax wavefront technologies japan shinjuku sumitomo bldg nishi shinjuku shunjuku tokyo japan fax plot and fast from nasa ames these packages are distributed from cosmic least for fast ask pat elson pelson nas nasa gov for distribution information general these codes are for citizens only xgraph the contrib tape its specialty display data sets ncar national center for atmospheric research one the original graphics packages runs sun sgi vax cray decstations and more contact graphics information ncar scientific computing division box boulder scdinfo ncar ucar edu cost edu unlimited users gov user users users com users multiply gov idl environment for scientific computing and visualization based array oriented language idl includes and graphics matrix manupulation signal and image processing basic statistics gridding mapping and widget based system for building gui for idl applications open look motif windows environments dec vms and ultrix ibm sgi sun microsoft windows mac version progress cost educational and quantity discounts available see also comp lang idl pvwave the idl pvwave bundle contact research systems inc street suite boulder phone fax mail info rsinc com demo available via ftp call mail for details idl sips lot people are using idl with package called sips this was developed the university colorado boulder some people working for alex goetz you might try contacting them you already have idl would willing buy few thousand dollars american expect for idl and the other should free those are the general purpose packages heard besides what terramar has sips was written for aviris imagery not sure how general purpose you would have contact goetz one his people and ask have another piece software pcw that does and walsh transformations with pseudocoloring and clustering and limited image modification you can compute image using selected components used megabyte aviris images without problems but for the best speed you need external dsp card will work without but large images take quite while times long process that freebie you want favorite idl interactive data language from research systems inc idl opinion much better and infinitely easier its programming language very strong and easy very pascal like handles the number crunching very well also personally like doing the number crunching with idl the vax mathematica igor even excel the mac not too hairy then bringing over nih image for the imaging part have yet encounter any situation which that combination couldn handle and the speed and ease use compared iraf was incredible the way mostly astronomical image processing which been doing this means image enhancement cleaning bad lines pixels and some other traditional image processing routines then for example taking graph intensity versus position along line choose with the mouse then doing curve fit that line which might like kaleidagraph for idl call research systems for wave call precision visuals and for sips call university colorado boulder from what can understand you can get packaged programs from research systems though nfotis visual contact robert haimes mit fieldview interactive program designed assist engineer investigating fluid dynamics data sets platforms sgi ibm sun terminals availability currently available all the above platforms educational programs and volume discounts are available contact intelligent light box fair lawn steve kramer kramer ilight com scian scian primarily intended visualizations data interactive environment with the ability generate animations using frame accurate video recording devices user manual line help and technical notes will help you use the program cost free source code provided via ftp platforms sgi machines and ibm with the card buffer where find ftp scri fsu edu pub scian mirror monu monash edu pub scian scry from the readme scry distributed image handling system that pro vides image transport and compression local and wide area networks image viewing workstations recording video equipment and storage disk the system can distri buted among workstations between supercomputers and works tations and between supercomputers workstations and video animation controllers the system most commonly used produce video based movie displays images resulting from visualization time dependent data complex data sets and image processing operations both the clients and servers run variety systems that provide unix like run time environments and bsd sockets the source available for anonymous ftp csam lbl gov pub scry tar contact bill johnston wejohnston lbl gov ucbvax csam lbl gov johnston david robertson dwrobertson lbl gov ucbvax csam lbl gov davidr imaging technologies group lawrence berkeley laboratory cyclotron road berkeley svlib fvs svlib windows widget set based the osf open software foundation motif widget set svlib widgets are macro widgets comprising lower level motif widgets such buttons scrollbars menus and drawing areas designed address the reusability visualization routines and each widget the library encapsulation specific visualization technique such colormap manipulation image display and contour plotting targetted run unix workstations supporting osf motif currently only color monitors are supported since svlib collection widgets developed the same spirit the osf motif user interface widget set integrates seamlessly with the motif widgets programmers using svlib widgets see the same interface and design other motif widgets fvs visualization software for computational fluid dynamics cfd simulations fvs designed accept data generated from these simulations and apply various visualization techniques present these data graphically fvs accepts three dimensional multi block data recorded ncsa hdf format iti gov pub svlib scientific visualization fvs these directories contain demo binaries for sun sgi cost for academic and for non academic institutions for each the above items you getting the source for the licence contact miss quek lee hian member technical staff information technology institute national computer board ncb building sicence park drive singapore republic singapore tel fax email leehian iti gov gvlware distribution bob interactive volume renderer for the sgi raz disk based movie player for the sgi icol motif color editor the army high performance computing research center ahpcrc has been developing set tools work with large time dependent and data sets the graphics and visualization lab gvl are using these tools along side standard packages such sgi explorer and the utah raster toolkit render volumes and create digital movies couple the more general purpose programs have been bundled into package called gvlware gvlware currently consisting bob raz and icol now available via ftp the most interesting program probably bob interactive volume renderer for the sgi raz streams raster images from disk sgi screen enabling movies larger than memory played icol color map editor that works with bob and raz source and pre built binaries for irix are included acquire gvlware anonymous ftp machine ftp arc umn edu file pub gvl tar use gvlware mkdir gvl gvl zcat gvl tar tar xvf more readme some bob features motif interface sgi rendering renders cubed data set seconds vgx alpha compositing and maximum value rendering perspective only maximum value rendering personal iris data must brick bytes regularly spaced grid animation subvolumes subsampling stereo some raz features motif interface sgi rendering loads files raw disk partition then streams screen requires empty disk partition set aside script interface available for movie sequences can stream from memory like ncsa ximage some icol features motif interface easy create interpolated color maps between key points rgb hsv and yuv color spaces multiple file formats communicates changes automatically bob and raz has been tested sgi sun dec and cray systems btw bob brick bytes icol interpolated color raz just name please send any comments gvlware ahpcrc umn edu this software collection supported the army research office contract number daalo with the university minnesota army high performance computing research center iap imaging applications platform commercial package for medical and scientific visualization does volume rendering binary surface rendering multiplanar reformating image manipulation cine sequencing intermixes geometry and text with images and provides measurement and coordinate transform abilities can provide hardcopy most medical film printers image database functionality and interconnection most medical mri etc scanners client server based and provides object oriented interface runs most high performance workstations and takes full advantage parallelism where available robust efficient and will submitted for fda approval for use medical applications cost for oem developer for educational developer and run times starting and going down based quantity the developer packages include two days training for two people toronto available from isg technologies airport road mississauga ontario canada mail rod gilchrist rod isgtec com molecular visualization stuff based list from cristy dupont com cristy which asked for systems for displaying molecular dynamics for short flex public domain package written michael pique the scripps research institute jolla flex stored compressed tar archive about perutz scripps edu pub flex displays molecular models and trajectories macmolecule for macintosh searched with archie and the most promising place sumex aim stanford edu info mac app and info mac art for demo display runs sgi machines call terry lybrand lybrand milton washington edu xtalview crystallography package that does visualize molecules and much more uses the xview toolkit call duncan mcree dem scripps edu landman hal physics wayne edu writing own visualization code right now look output specific format easy alter for the subroutine program has hooks into gks your friend has access phigs for pex and fortran bindings would happy share evolving code free charge right now can display supercells atoms easy change and time steps drawing nearest neighbor bonds between defining radii works acceptably fast mhz icsg caesar montana edu did project molecular visualization for master thesis using unix motif which generates simple point and space filling model kgngraf kgngraf part motecc look malena crs pub motecc motecc info txt information about motecc plain ascii format motecc info troff information about motecc troff format motecc form troff motecc order form troff format motecc license troff motecc license agreement troff format motecc info information about motecc postscript format motecc form motecc order form postscript format motecc license motecc license agreement postscript format ditolla itnsg cineca working molecular dynamic too friend mine and have developed program display run dynamically silicon graphics are working improve but doesn work under are using the graphi lib the silicon because they are much faster then when end post the news info about where get with ftp will free software xball written david nedde call daven maxine wpi edu xmol window system program that uses osf motif for the display and analysis molecular model data data from several common file formats can read and written current formats include alchemy chemlab gaussian molsim mopac pdb and msci xyz format which has been designed for simplicity translating and from other formats xmol also allows for conversion between several these formats xmol available ftp msc edu read pub xmol readme for further details insight from biosym technologies inc scarecrow the program has been published molecular graphics the program can analyze and display charmm discover yasp and mumod trajectories the program package contains also software for the generation probe surfaces proton affinity surfaces and molecular orbitals from extended huckel program works silicon graphics machines contact leif laaksonen leif laaksonen csc laaksone csc multi niehs nih gov pub multi multi process molecular modeling suite mindtool runs under sunview and requires fortran compiler and sun cgi libraries mindtool tool provided for the interactive graphic manipulation molecules and atoms currently atoms may input available via anonymous ftp rani chem yale edu directory pub mindtool check with archie for other sites that too far would also suggest looking least sgi applications directory contains many more packages nfotis gis geographical information systems software grass geographic resource analysis support system the army construction engineering research lab cerl popular geographic and remote sensing image processing package many may think grass geographic information system rather than image processing package although reported have significant image processing capabilities feature descriptions use grass because public domain and can obtained through the internet for free grass runs unix and written the source code can obtained through anonymous ftp from the office grass integration you then compile the source code for your machine using scripts provided with grass would recommend grass for someone who already has workstation and limited budget grass not very user friendly compared macintosh software first review overview documentation indicates that looks useful and has some pixel resampling functions not other packages plus good general purpose image enhancement routines fft kelly maurice vexcel corp boulder primary user grass this gentleman has used the grass software and developed multi spectral bands volumetric rendering full color suns and stardents was really effective interface vexcel corp currently has contract map part venus and convert the magellan radar data into contour maps you can call them email care greg vexcel com host configuration requirements you are willing run you could install grass macintosh which has significant image analysis and import capabilities for satellite data grass public domain and can run high end under unix raster based has some image processing capability and can display vector data but analysis must done the raster environment have used grass sun workstation and found easy use best course for data that are well represented raster grid cell form availability cerl office grass integration ogi maintains ftp server moon cecer army mil mail regarding this site should addressed grass ftp admin moon cecer army mil this location will the new canonical source for grass software well bug fixes contributed sources documentation and other files this ftp server also supports dynamic compression and uncompression and tar archiving files feature attraction the server john parks grass tutorial because the manual still beta test stage john requests that people only acquire they are willing review and mail him comments corrections the ogi not currently maintaining this document all correspondence about should directed grassx tang uark edu support listserv mailing lists grassu list amber cecer army mil for grass users application level questions support concerns miscellaneous questions etc send subscribe commands grassu request amber cecer army mil grassp list amber cecer army mil for grass programmers system level questions and tips tricks and techniques design and implementation grass applications send subscribe commands grassp request amber cecer army mil both lists are maintained the office grass integration subset the army corps engineers construction engineering research lab champaign the ogi providing the lists service the community while ogi and cerl employees will participate the lists can make claim content veracity messages that pass through the list you have questions problems comments send mail lists owner amber cecer army mil and human will respond microstation imager intergraph based huntsville alabama sells wide range gis software hardware microstation base graphics package that imager sits top imager basically image processing package with heavy gis remote sensing flavor feature description basic geometry manipulations flip mirror rotate generalized affine rectification affine and order models well projective model warp image vector map another image rgb ihs and ihs rgb conversion principal component analysis classification means and isodata fourier xforms forward filtering and reverse filters high pass low pass edge enhancing median generic complex histogram contrast control layer controller manages images time user can extract single bands from band image create color images combining various individual bands etc the package designed for remote sensing application can handle very large images and there all kinds other software available for gis applications host configuration requirements runs intergraph workstations unix machine similar sun though there were rumors there are always rumors that the software would ported and possibly sun environment pci company called pci inc out richmond hill ontario canada makes array software utilities for processing manipulation and use remote sensing data eight ten different industry standard formats lgsowg bsq landsat and couple others whose titles forget the software available versions for dos unix workstations among them sun and ibm and vms and quite possibly other platforms now use the vms version the pci software consists several classes groups packages utilities grouped function but all operating common pci database disk file the tape package set utility programs which read from the various remote sensing industry tape formats into write those formats out from the pci database file this the only package use know much about other packages can display data from the pci database one another several pci supported third party color displays output numeric bitmap representation image data attached printer epson type dot matrix graphics printer you might more spe cifically interested the mathematical operations package histo gram and fourier analysis equalization user specified operations multiply channel add channel and store channel and god only knows what all else there lot don have and don use these can say much about them you only buy the packages your particular application interest calls for each utility controlled from one eight parameters read from common parameter file which must vms anyway your default directory some utilities will share parameters and use the same parameter for different purpose can get bit confusing setting series operations the standard pci environment contains scripting language very similar ibm basic but which allows you automate the process setting parameters for common complicated lengthy difficult series utility executions vms can also invoke utilities independently from dcl command procedure there also optional programming library which allows you write compiled language programs which can interface with read from write the pci data structures database file parameter file the pci software designed specifically for remote sensing images but requires such level operator expertise that once you reach the level where you can handle images you can figure out ways handle few other things well for instance the tape package offers utility for reading headerless multi band what adobe photoshop the macintosh calls raw data from tape number different interleave orders this turns out ideal for manipulating the graphic arts industry format would probably haven tried handle targa and above all however you have know what you doing you can screw the nth degree and have start over worth noting that the pci database file designed contain not only raster image data but vectors for overlaying map information entered via digitizing table land use and all manner other information observe that remote sensing image tape often contains all manner information about the spectral bands latitude longitude time date etc the original satellite pass all this can into the pci database believe that workstations the built display used vax systems other than workstations pci supports only couple specific third party display systems the name gould deanza seems come mind one personal workarounds was display program which would display directly from pci database file peritek vct bus bit directcolor display subsystem pci software could overkill your case seems designed for the very high end applications users those for whom mac largely doesn suffice although you know the gap getting smaller all the time probably coincidence that pci located canada country which does lot its land resource management via remote sensing believe the canadian government uses pci software for some its work these areas spam spectral analysis manager back jpl developed something called spam spectral analysis manager which got fair amount use the time that was designed for airborne imaging spectrometer imagery byte data pixels across lines bands modified version has since been developed for aviris airborne visual and infrared imaging spectrometer which uses much larger images spam does none these things rectification classification and ihs transformations filtering contrast enhancement overlays actually does limited filtering and contrast enhancement stretching spam aimed spectral identification and clustering the original spam uses sunview display the aviris version may require vicar executive based tae and may also require frame buffer can refer you people you interested pcw requires for display map among the mac gis systems map distributed john wiley clrview clrview dimensional visualization program designed exploit the real time capabilities silicon graphics iris computers this program designed provide core set tools aid the visualization information from cad and gis sources supports the integration many common but disperate data sources such dxf tin dem lattices and arc info coverages among others clrview can obtained from explorer dgp utoronto the directory pub sgi clrview contact rodney hoinkes head design applications centre for landscape research university toronto tel email rodney dgp utoronto end resource listing nick nikolaos fotis national technical univ athens greece home esperidon internet nfotis theseas ntua halandri uucp mcsun ariadne theseas nfotis athens greece fax
comp.graphics	apr computer graphics resource listing weekly part archive name graphics resources list part last modified computer graphics resource listing weekly posting part last change april many faqs including this listing are available the archive site pit manager mit edu alias rtfm mit edu the directory pub usenet news answers the name under which faq archived appears the archive name line the top the article this faq archived graphics resources list part there mail server that machine you send mail message mail server pit manager mit edu containing the keyword help without quotes the message body you can see many other places for this listing see the item places find the resource listing for more information items changed arranged the subjects order fir better the article limit plan changing headers soon careful only the resource listing keys are sure remain the subject line places find the resource listing graphics editors public domain free and shareware systems plotting packages molecular visualization stuff thinking making this post weekly what you think lines which got changed have the character front them added lines are prepended with removed lines are just removed use diff locate these changes this text copyright nikolaos fotis you can copy freely this file provided you keep this copyright notice intact compiled nikolaos nick fotis mail nfotis theseas ntua please contact for updates corrections etc disclaimer not guarantee the accuracy this document use your own risk this mainly guide for computer graphics software would suggest reading the comp graphics faq for image analysis stuff entitled date comp graphics frequently asked questions faq john grieggs grieggs jpl devvax jpl nasa gov the poster the official comp graphics faq have included comments within braces and nikolaos fotis contents the resource listing part places find the resource listing archie notes computer graphics ftp site list eric haines mail servers and graphics oriented bbses ray tracing graphics related mailing lists graphics editors public domain free and shareware systems commercial systems scene description languages solids description formats part plotting packages image analysis software image processing and display part scene generators geographical data maps data files scanners digitized data background imagery textures datafiles introduction rendering algorithms ray tracing buffer depth buffer others where can find the geometric data for the teapot space shuttle image annotation software scientific visualization stuff molecular visualization stuff gis geographical information systems software future additions please send updates info places find the resource listing this file crossposted comp graphics comp answers and news answers you can locate comp graphics you advised search comp answers news answers the latter groups usually are archived your site contact your sysadmin for more info these articles are posted comp graphics times month and are kept many places see below many faqs including this one are available the archive site pit manager mit edu alias rtfm mit edu the directory pub usenet news answers the name under which faq archived appears the archive name line the top the article this faq archived graphics resources list part there mail server that machine you send mail message mail server pit manager mit edu containing help the subject field the inria graphlib mail server mirrors this posting see under the subject mail servers the resource listing accesible through wais the machine enuxva eas asu edu port under the name graphics resources list got digest type line before every numbered item for purposes indexing another place that monitors the listing the maasinfo files for more info contact robert maas rem btr com yet another place search for faqs general the switch swiss academic and research network system switzerland interactive telnet nic switch login info move the info service usenet periodic postings directory search the index file typing and the word look for you may then just read the faq the faqs directory decide fetch one the following methods ftp login nic switch user anonymous and enter your internet style address after being prompted for password info service usenet periodic postings mail send mail rfc archive server nic switch archive server nic switch prmd switch admd arcom enter help the bodypart receive instructions information required the subject header line archie the archie service system locate ftp places for requested files appreciated that you will use archie before asking help the newsgroups archie servers archie aussie archie funet finland eur archie darmstadt ger huji israel archie kuis kyoto japan archie sogang korea archie ncu edu telnet twn archie doc ireland archie sura net usa archie unl edu password archie usa archie ans net usa archie rutgers edu usa archie new zealand connect archie server with telnet and type archie username get help type help you can get xarchie archie which are clients that call archie without the burden telnet session xarchie the contrib tape and archie comp sources misc vol get information how use archie via mail send mail with subject help archie account any above sites note janet pss users the united kingdom archie site accessible the janet host doc connect and specify archie the host name and archie the username notes excerpted from the faq article please not post mail messages saying can ftp could someone mail this there are number automated mail servers that will send you things like this response message there are number sites that archive the usenet sources newsgroups and make them available via email query system you send message automated server saying something like send comp sources unix fbm and few hours days later you get the file the mail computer graphics ftp site list eric haines computer graphics related ftp sites and maintainers compiled eric haines erich eye com and nick fotis nfotis theseas ntua ray tracers rayshade great ray tracer for workstations also for mac amiga pov son and successor dkb trace written compuservers for more questions call drew wells compuserve com dave buck david buck carleton art ray tracer with good range surface types part vort package dkbtrace another good ray tracer from all reports pcs mac amiga unix vms last two with previewer etc rtrace portugese ray tracer does bicubic patches csg text etc etc dos version for use with djgpp dos extender exists also mac port vivid shareware raytracer for pcs binary only author stephen coy coy ssc vax boeing com the source version available registered users direct from the author ray steve hollasch dimensional ray tracer renders hyperspheres hypertetrahedra hyperplanes and hyperparallelepipeds there separate real time wireframe viewer written called wire mtv qrt dbw yet more ray tracers some with interesting features distributed parallel raytracers xdart distributed ray tracer that runs under there are server binaries which work only decstations sparcs snakes series and next the clients are distributed binaries and source inetray network version rayshade needs sun rpc newer contact andreas thurnherr ant ips ethz prt pray parallel ray tracers volume renderers vrend cornell volume renderer from kartch devine caffey warren fortran radiosity and diffuse lighting renderers radiance ray tracer radiosity effects greg ward excellent shading models and physically based lighting simulation unix based though has been ported the amiga and the india indian radiosity package based radiance sgi rad interactive radiosity package that runs sgi machines with spaceball includes house database author guy moreillon moreillo ligsg epfl rad simple public domain radiosity package the solution can run stand alone any unix box but the walk through requires sgi author bernard kwok kwok yorku renderers which are not raytracers and graphics libraries sipp scan line buffer and phong shading renderer now uses the shadow buffer algorithm tcl sipp tcl command interface the sipp rendering program tcl sipp set tcl commands used programmed sipp without having write and compile code commands are used specify surfaces objects scenes and rendering options renders either ppm format utah raster toolkit rle format the photo widget the based applications vogle graphics learning environment device portable vogl sgi like library based vogle rend fast polygon renderer for intel and version not photorealistic but rather real time renderer xsharp dobb journal renderer source code with budget texture mapping modellers wireframe viewers vision mac modeler can output radiance rayshade files irit csg solid modeler with support for freeform surfaces wireframe viewer for wireframe graphics toolkit with source objects other stuff look major archives like wuarchive one such file dkit zip shareware front end modeler for povray still beta test french docs for now price for registering french francs save disabled some extra utilities dxf files for the registered version geometric viewers salem based package from dobkin for exploring mathematical structures geomview based package for looking and interactively manipulating objects from geometry center minnesota xyz geobench experimental geometry zurich workbench for geometric computation for macintosh computers wire wireframe previewer for steve hollasch ray see above data formats and data sets for ray tracing spd set procedural databases for testing ray tracers nff simplistic file format used spd off another file format lispy file format tddd imagine modeler format has converters for rayshade nff off etc also includes nice postscript object displayer some great models ttdddlib converts from tddd ttddd off nff rayshade imagine and vort objects also outputs framemaker mif files and isometric views postscript registered users get tex font converter and superquadric surfaces generator glenn lewis glewis pcocd intel com note ttdddlib also known dlib chvrtd chapel hill volume rendering test datasets includes volume sets for two heads brain knee electron density maps for rna and others written material rendering news collections articles ray tracing bib references articles ray tracing refer format rad bib references articles radiosity global illumination speer bib rick speer cross referenced bib postscript abstracts collection tom wilson abstracts many articles paper bank project various technical papers electronic form contact juhana kouhia tut online bibliography project the acm siggraph online bibliography project database over unique computer graphics and computational geometry references bibtex format available the computer graphics community research and educational resource the database located siggraph org users may download the bibtex files via ftp and peruse them offline telnet siggraph org and log biblio and interactively search the database for entries interest keyword for the people without internet access there also mail server send mail archive server siggraph org and the subject the body the message include the message send followed the topic and subtopic you wish good place start with the command send index which will give you date list available information additions corrections suggestions may directed the admin bibadmin siggraph org image manipulation libraries utah raster toolkit nice image manipulation tools pbmplus great package for image conversion and manipulation libtiff library for reading writing tiff images imagemagick package for display and interactive manipulation images uses its own format miff and includes some converters based image display manipulation and format converter xloadimage xli displays various formats screen khoros huge excellent system for image processing with visual programming interface and much much more uses windows fbm another set image manipulation tools somewhat old now img image manipulation displays screen bit old now xflick plays fli animation under xanim plays any resolution fli along with gif including gif animation extensions and amiga iff animations and iff pictures including ham ehb and color cycling sdsc sdsc image tools package san diego supercomputing center for image manipulation and conversion clrpaint bit paint program for sgi bit workstations and bit indigos libraries with code for graphics graphics gems iii code from the ever useful books spline patch tar spline patch ray intersection routines sean graves kaleido computation and display uniform polyhedra mirrored wuarchive this package computes and displays the metrical properties polyhedra author zvi har mail gauss technion means site official distributor most date north america please look for things your own continent first wuarchive wustl edu graphics graphics get contents file for roadmap graphics graphics objects tddd the ttddd objects and converters mirrors unix graphics rayshade ray tracer mtv ray tracer vort ray tracer fbm pbmplus popi utah raster toolkit mirrors msdos graphics dkb ray tracer fli raytracker demos pub rad tar sgi rad graphics graphics radiosity radiance and indian radiosity package msdos ddjmag ddj zip version xsharp with fast texture mapping there lots more including bibs graphics gems code off rtn radiance nff sipp spline patch intersection routines textbook errata source code from roy hall book illumination and color computer generated imagery etc graphics graphics packages kaleido kaleido george kyriazis kyriazis turing rpi edu princeton edu pub graphics note capital rayshade ray tracer and separate executable color quantization code spd news wilson abstracts bib utah raster toolkit newer fbm graphics gems iii code pub graphics directory salem and other stuff craig kolb cek princeton edu replaces weedeater math yale edu note the capital pub graphics because there trouble with princeton incoming area you can upload rayshade specific stuff weedeater math yale edu alfred ccs carleton pub dkbtrace dkb ray tracer pub pov ray pov ray pvray compuserve group ray tracer pov david buck david buck carleton avalon chinalake navy mil objects multiple formats utilities file format documents this site was created object repository for the net francisco dejesus dejesus archimedes chinalake navy mil omicron unc edu pub softlab chvrtd chapel hill volume rendering test datasets ftp com official ddj ftp repository xsharp peipa essex the pilot european image processing archive directory ipa synth something like that there are image synthesis packages adrian clarke alien essex barkley berkeley edu tcl extensions tsipp tar tcl sipp mark diekhans markd grizzly com markd neosoft com acs cps msu edu pub sass window fonts converter into rayshade polygons rayshade animation tool ron sass sass cps msu edu hobbes lbl gov radiance ray trace radiosity package greg ward gjward lbl gov geom umn edu pub geomview geomview contact for geomview software geom umn edu ftp arc umn edu pub gvl tar the latest version bob icol and raz source manual man pages and binaries for irix are included bob real time volume renderer pub contains also many volume datasets ken chin purcell ken ahpcrc umn edu ftp kpc com pub graphics holl steve hollasch thesis pub graphics ray ray pub graphics wire wire pub mirror avalon mirror avalon objects repository steve hollasch hollasch kpc com swedishchef lerc nasa gov programs hollasch ray sgi explorer modules and postscript manual etc zamenhof rice edu pub graphics formats various electronic documents about many object and image formats mark hall foo rice edu will apparently longer maintaining see ftp ncsa uiuc edu rascal ics utexas edu misc mac inqueue vision facet based modeller can output rayshade and radiance files ftp ncsa uiuc edu misc file formats graphics formats contains various image and object format descriptions many scivi tools various directories sgi alpha shape alvis tar alpha shape visualizer sgi machines only sgi polyview polyview interactive visualization and analysis geometrical structures quincey koziol koziol ncsa uiuc edu tucana noao edu iraf the iraf astronomy package ftp ipl rpi edu sigma erich spd images and haines thesis images pub images various and bit image stills and sequences kevin martin sigma ipl rpi edu ftp psc edu pub tar lispy scene language renderers joel welling welling seurat psc edu ftp lbl gov pbmplus tar rayshade data files jef poskanzer jef ace lbl gov george lbl gov pub ccs lib ccs tar ccs complex conversion system standard software interface for image processing hanauma stanford edu pub graphics comp graphics best comp graphics very extensive ray tracers dbw mtv qrt and more joe dellinger joe hanauma stanford edu ftp net graphics irit news back issues not complete nurbs models other graphics related material graphics jpeg jpegsrc tar independent jpeg group package for reading and writing jpeg files freebie engin umich edu utah raster toolkit spencer thomas thomas eecs umich edu export lcs mit edu contrib pbmplus image magick xloadimage xli img lots more pub untarred mit demos gpc ncga graphics performance characterization gpc suite life pawl rpi edu pub ray kyriazis stochastic ray tracer george kyriazis kyriazis turing rpi edu utah edu pub utah raster toolkit nurbs databases jamie painter jamie utah edu gatekeeper dec com pub dec off tar off models also gpc benchmark files planned but not checked randi rost rost kpc com hubcap clemson edu pub amiga incoming imagine stuff for the amiga imagine turbo silver ray tracers pub amiga ttdddlib ttdddlib pub amiga incoming imagine objects many objects glenn lewis glewis pcocd intel com pprg eece unm edu pub khoros khoros image processing package huge but great danielle argiro danielle bullwinkle unm edu expo lcs mit edu contrib pbmplus portable bitmap package poskbitmaptars bitmap collection raveling img xloadimage jef poskanzer jef well venera isi edu pub img tar and img tar some image manipulation pub images rgb separation photos paul raveling raveling venera isi edu ucsd edu graphics utah rle toolkit pbmplus fbm databases mtv dbw and other ray tracers world map other stuff not updated much recently castlab engr wisc edu pub tar pub xdart xdart mark spychalla spy castlab engr wisc edu sgi com graphics tiff tiff spec libtiff software and pics also much sgi and related stuff opengl manuals sam leffler sam sgi com supercedes okeeffe berkeley edu for the libtiff stuff surya waterloo edu graphics fbm ray tracers ftp sdsc edu sdscpub sdsc ftp brl mil brl cad information how get the brl cad package ray tracer images various test images texture library has also begun here lee butler butler brl mil cicero umass edu texture temp grayscale brodatz textures from julien flack julien scs leeds karazm math edu pub graphics rtabs shar wilson abstracts pray eric townsend jet karazm math edu jet nas nasa gov ftp pitt edu users qralston images bit image archive small james ralston crawford qralston pitt edu ftp cornell edu pub vis vrend sunee waterloo edu pub raytracers vivid rend sunee uwaterloo archive umich edu msdos graphics graphics stuff msdos graphics raytrace vivid apple apple com pub archivevol prt research att com netlib graphics spd package polyhedra polyhedra databases you don have ftp use the netlib automatic mail replier uucp research netlib internet netlib ornl gov send one line message send index for more info send haines from graphics get the spd siggraph org siggraph archive site publications online bibliography project conference proceedings various electronic formats papers panels siggraph video review information and order forms other stuff various directories automatic mailer archive server siggraph org send index ftp unc edu pub reaction diffusion greg turk work reaction diffusion textures windows code siggraph avs ncsc org ftp volvis volume datasets from the boston workshop volume visualization this site also the international avs center terry myerson tvv ncsc org uvacs virginia edu pub suit demo sparc dec etc suit simple user interface toolkit finger suit uvacs virginia edu get detailed instructions nexus yorku pub reports radiosity code tar rad pub reports radiosity thesis rad msc thesis this site will changed ftp yorku the near future milton washington edu ftp public veos veos virtual reality and distributed applications prototyping environment for unix veos software support veos support hitl washington edu oldpublic fly fly visualization software demo that package built for fly throughs from various datasets near real time there are binaries for many platforms also much other virtual reality stuff zug csmil umich edu xpecs files lcd glass shutter for amiga computers great for stuff sugrfx acs syr edu various stereo pair images has closed down sunsite unc edu pub academic computer science virtual reality final copy the sugrfx acs syr edu archive that ceased exist contains powerglove code papers images and irc research material jonathan magid jem sunsite unc edu archive cis ohio state edu pub siggraph code for siggraph course procedural modeling and rendering techniques david ebert ebert cis ohio state edu lyapunov ucsd edu this machine considered the repository for preprints and programs for nonlinear dynamics signal processing and related subjects and fractals course matt kennel mbk inls ucsd edu cod nosc mil pub grid tex ascii short survey methods interpolate and contour bivariate data ics uci edu honig various stereo pair images movie animates movie display bit and mono with digital subtraction taurus nps navy mil pub dabro cyberware demo tar human head data pioneer unm edu pub texture maps hans buf grayscale test textures aerial swatches brodatz textures synthetic swatches space planetary image repository provides access roms with data images line time pub info beginner info here you should start browsing colby kraybill opus pioneer unm edu brown edu srgp sphigs for more info srgp sphigs mail software distribution graphtext brown edu pdb pdb bnl gov has data about various organic molecules bonds between the different atoms etc atomic coordinates and load other stuff are contained the ent files but the actual atomic dimemsions seem missing you could convert these data pov rayshade etc biome bio pub art some renoir paintings escher pictures etc umanitoba specmark sample set images from the images from the edge rom images atomic landscapes advanced semiconductors superconductors and experimental surface chemistry among others contact ruskin umanitoba explorer dgp toronto edu pub sgi clrpaint clrpaint pub sgi clrview clrview tool that aids visualization gis datasets may formats like dxf dem arc info etc ames arc nasa gov pub space cdrom images from magellan and viking missions etc get pub space index first pub spacelink has most the spacelink service data see below mail server available send mail archive server ames arc nasa gov ames archive server with subject help send space index without the quotes peter yee yee ames arc nasa gov pubinfo jpl nasa gov images other data etc from jpl missions modem access parity data bits stop bit newsdesk jplpost jpl nasa gov phone spacelink msfc nasa gov passwd guest space graphics and gif images from nasa planetary probes and the hubble telescope main function support for teachers you can telnet also this site dial access baud bits parity stop bit stsci edu hubble space telescope stuff images and other data read the readme first pete reppert reppert stsci edu chris dea odea stsci edu pit manager mit edu pub usenet news answers the land faqs graphics and pictures directories particular interest also available from mail server pit manager mit edu sending mail message containing help uucp archive avatar news back issues for details write kory hamzeh kory avatar avatar com europe nic funet pub sci papers paper bank project including pete shirley entire thesis with pics wilson abstracts pub misc cia worldmap cia world data bank comp graphics research archive india and much much more juhana kouhia tut dasun epfl radiance good for european sites but doesn carry the add ons that are available for radiance isy liu pub sipp sipp tar sipp scan line buffer and phong shading renderer jonas yngvesson jonas isy liu irisa ipsc pray ray tracer spd nff many non spd nff format scenes rayshade data files didier badouel badouel irisa irisa may have disappeared phoenix oulu fli raytracker animation files vga also big flis rayscene demos americans check wuarchive first more animations come jari kahkonen hole phoenix oulu jyu pub graphics ray traces many ray tracers including pray dbw dkb mtv qrt rayshade some news nff files jari toivanen toivanen jyu garbo uwasa much stuff etc source contour fortran program contour scattered data using linear triangle based interpolation asterix inescn pub rtrace rtrace nffutils tar nff utilities for rtrace medical data cat etc converters nff autocad nff autolisp code autocad scn rtrace language converter and other goodies antonio costa acc asterix inescn vega hut graphics rtn archive ray tracers mtv qrt others nff some models was shut down months ago check under nic funet nfotis sun nluug pub graphics raytrace dbw microray mtv etc unix hensa misc unix ralcgm ralcgm tar cgm viewer and converter there mail server also mail archive unix hensa with the message body send misc unix ralcgm ralcgm tar maeglin luth graphics raytracing prt others doc wilson abstracts vivid ftp berlin pub unix graphics rayshade inputs tar rayshade aquarium americans check princeton edu first heiko schlichting heiko math berlin maggia ethz pub inetray inetray and sun rpc code andreas thurnherr ant ips ethz osgiliath dth pub amiga graphics radiance amiga port radiance per bojsen bojsen ithil dth ftp informatik uni oldenburg pov raytracer mirrored wuarchive has many goods for pov pub dkbtrace incoming polyray polyray raytracer pub dkbtrace incoming ftp uni pub amiga raytracing imagine mirror the hubcap imagine files neptune inf ethz xyz xyz geobench peter schorn schorn inf ethz iamsun unibe graphics graphtal system interpreter christoph streit streit iam unibe amiga physik unizh amiga gfx graphics stuff for the amiga computer stesis eso org line access huge astronomical database login starcat passwd decnet stesis the space telescope european coordination facility benoit pirenne bpirenne eso org phone middle east gauss technion kaleida australia gondwana ecr pub vort art ray tracer vogle wilson ray tracing abstracts pub contrib artscenes art scenes from italy pub images haines haines thesis images graphics gems code spd nff off databases nff and off previewers plus some and bit images and lots other stuff pub rad tar sgi rad bernie kirby bernie ecr munnari pub graphics vort tar vort art csg and algebraic surface ray tracer vogle pub dbw pbmplus graphics room tar art scenes from italy david hook dgh munnari marsh curtin edu pub graphics bibliography facial animation pub graphics bibliography morph pub graphics bibliography stuff about facial animation morphing and user interfaces pub fascia fred parke fascia program valerie hall val lillee curtin edu oceania asia ccu aukland ftp mac architec vision facet based modeller can output rayshade files many other neat things for macs paul bourke pdbourke ccu aukland scslwide sony ftp sgi facial animation steve franks site for facial animation steve franks stevef csl sony stevef umr edu mail servers and graphics oriented bbses please check first with the ftp places above with archie help don overuse mail servers there are some troubles with wrong return addresses many these mail servers have command like path valid return mail address get hint for sending back you stuff dec ftpmail send one line message ftpmail decwrl dec com without subject field and having line containing the word help you should get back message detailing the relevant procedures you must follow order get the files you want note that the reply answer command your mailer will not work for this message any other mail you receive from ftpmail send requests ftpmail send original mail message not reply complaints should sent the ftpmail request uucp dec com address rather than postmaster since decwrl postmaster not responsible for fixing ftpmail problems bitftp for bitnet sites only there bitftp pucc send one line help message this address for more info lightwave mail based file server mail based file server for objects bit jpeg images gif images and image maps now online for all those with internet mail access the server the official archive site for the lightwave mail list and contains many and shareware graphics utilities for several computer platforms including amiga atari ibm and macintosh the server resides bbs called the graphics bbs the bbs operational hours day days week the phone number has upgraded its modem hayes ultra bis bis which has speeds from bps bps you would like submit objects scenes images the server please pack uuencode and then mail the files the address server bobsbox rent com for information obtaining files from the server send mail message the address file server graphics rent com with the following the body the message help dir and help file describing how use the server and complete directory listing will sent you via mail now includes the cyberware head and shouders ttddd format check out only you can use ftp nfotis inria graphlib pierre jancene and sabine coquillart launched the inria graphlib mail server few months ago echo help mail inria graphlib inria will give you quick summary what inria graphlib contains and how browse among its files echo send contents mail inria graphlib inria will return the extended summary other example echo send cgrl from misc mail inria graphlib inria will return the computer graphics resource listing mirrored from comp graphics bbses there are many bbses that store datafiles etc etc but guide these beyond the scope this listing and the resources the author you can point internet mail accessible bbses that carry interesting stuff send info studio amiga modelling and ray tracing specific bbs hours meg online from jeff walkup pwappy well the castle bis bis mnp pacifica dang close san francisco california usa the new user password tao oin base the castle anim video which the sig lazerus bob lindabury operates bbs see above the entry for the graphics bbs you can call ray ray tracing related bbs chicago suburbs digital pixel sysop mark mcng descartes waterloo edu based toronto ontario canada phone storage space megs modem type baud zyxel bis mnp access fee none free system supported dos amiga mac netmail currently echo mail topics raytracing fractals graphics programming cad any comp graphics related from david tiberio dtiberio sunysb edu amiga graphics bbs long island new york running hours bis with megs line also subscribe mailing lists which originate from our bbs with more added soon these include lightwave imagine real ray tracing database files include imagine objects renderings scalable fonts music modules sound samples demos animations utilities text databases and pending lightwave objects the graphics alternative the graphics alternative cerrito running hours day hst bis with online and user base tga runs two nodes node for public access and includes free day trial subscription tga the west coast host for pcgnet the profesional cad and graphics network supporting nodes across the continental alaska new zealand australia france and the tga file database includes dos executables for pov vivid rtrace rayshade polyray and others tga also has numerous graphics utilities viewers and conversion utilities registered vivid users can also download the latest vivid aeta code from special vivid conference from scott bethke sbathkey access digex com the intersection bbs this bbs dedicated supporting animators the system provided free charge and not commercialized anyway users are given full access the first call features usenet news internet mail fidonet echo netmail megs online bis bis modem platforms interest amiga the videotoaster macintosh dos unix workstations sun sgi etc atari from alfonso hermida afanh robots gsfc nasa gov square bbs maryland supports raytracers such pov and vivid the bbs runs off mhz megs hard drive and rom now runs bps this will change soon topics graphics programming animation raytracing programming general from lynn falkow roxxie delphi com vertech design graphic connection portland oregon bis the bbs aside from carrying typical bbs services like message bases all topic specific and files cad and graphics related hundreds megabytes also offers material texture files that are full color seamlessly tiling photo realistic images there are samples available first time callers the bbs subscription system although callers have hours before they must subscribe and there are several subscription rates available people interested materials can subscribe the library addition basic subscription rate and can use their purchased time download whichever materials they wish ray tracing graphics related mailing lists imagine modeling and animation system for the amiga send subscription requests imagine request email paramax com send material imagine email paramax com dave wickard has substituted steve worley the maintenance the mailing list please note that the unisys com address longer valid lightwave for the amiga part newtek video toaster send subscription requests lightwave request bobsbox rent com send material lightwave bobsbox rent com bob lindabury toaster send subscription requests listserv karazm math edu with body subscribe toaster list real another modeling and animation system for the amiga subscribe send mail containing the body subscribe real your full name listserv uwa edu rayshade send subscription requests rayshade request princeton edu send material rayshade users princeton edu craig kolb alladin for the amiga send subscription requests subscribe xamiga linet org and the body the message write alladin username domain radiance greg ward the author sends registered via mail users digests his correspodence with them notes about fixes updates etc his address gjward lbl gov rend send subscription requests rend request sunee waterloo edu send material rend sunee waterloo edu pov ray dkb raytracers subscribe send mail containing the body subscribe dkb your full name listserv trearn bitnet send material dkb trearn bitnet mailing list for massively parallel rendering send subscription requests render request icase edu send material render icase edu graphics editors public domain free and shareware systems vision mac based program written paul bourke pdbourke ccu aukland the program can used generate models directly the rayshade and radiance file formats polygons only shareware and listed the ftp list brl solid modeling system for most environments including sgi and has csg and nurbs plus support for non manifold geometry whatever you can get free via ftp signing and returning the relevant license found ftp brl mil uses ray tracing for engineering analyses contact carla moyer tel fax cad dist brl mil mail snail mail brl cad distribution surviac aberdeen satellite office old philadelphia road suite aberdeen usa irit constructive solid geometry csg modeling program for and includes freeform surface support free see ftp list for where find surfmodel solid modeling program for written turbo pascal ken van camp available from simtel msdos srfmodl directory noodles from cmu namely fritz printz and levent gursoz elg styx edrc cmu edu based non manifold topology ask them for more info don know they give away xyz xyz interactive editor builder written dale stocker create objects for the surfacemodel automove and dkb raytracer packages xyz free and can found for example simtel msdos surfmodl xyz zip dos only dmod msdos program check barnacle erc clarkson edu pub msdos graphics dmod undocumented file format dmod micah silverman pierrepoint ave postdam new york tel northcad shareware msdos cad ncad zip simtel undocumented file format vertex amiga shareware send check money order the art machine nickolas sterling heights usa addition the now standard file formats including lightwave imagine sculpt turbo silver geo and wavefront this release offers professional and rayshade support rayshade supported only the primitive triangle but you can easily include this output your rayshade scripts the latest demo version available fred fish for more information contact the author alex deburie sycom org phone icoons amiga spline based object modeller icoons interactive coons path editor amiga physik unizh gfx icoons lzh free under the gnu licence and requires fpu the program has look feel which cross between journeyman and imagine and generates objects ttddd format possible load journeyman objects into icoons the program can used convert jman objects imagine format author helge rasmussen her compel phone fax also fred fish disk series nfotis protocad ver from trius shareware wsmr simtel army mil and oak oakland edu pcad zip for pcs has this menu layout file file handling load save import xport draw draw objects line circle box draw objects mesh sphere block edit editing features copy move surface modify objects revolve xtrude sweep image image zooming features update window half option global defaults grid toggles axis plot print drawing picture image render shade objects frame lighting tune layer layer options select active layer set colors sculptura runs under windows and outputs pov files demo can found wuarchive wustl edu mirrors win demo demo zip author michael gibson gibsonm stein washington edu commercial systems alpha spline based modeling program written university utah features splines trimmed nurbs support for boolean operations sweeps bending warping flattening etc groups objects and transformations extensible object types applications include machining animation utilities dimensioning fem analysis etc rendering subsystem with support for animations support the following platforms and sgi machines and irix sun sparcstation sunos licensing and distribution handled egs glenn mcminn president engineering geometry systems east south temple suite salt lake city mcminn utah edu educational pricing the charge per platform you may run the system many different workstations that type you wish for each platform there also licensing fee for portable standard lisp psl which bundled with the system you need obtain additional license from the university utah for psl from the following address professor robert kessler computer science department university utah salt lake city utah egs can handle the licensing psl for institutions for usd nominal fee nfotis vertigo they have educational institution program the package used the industrial design architectural scientific visualization educational broadcast imaging and post production fields they quoting from letter sent nfotis donate fully configured vertigo graphics software worth over usd per package qualified educational institutions for licencing any number silicon graphics personal iris power series workstations you use iris indigo station will also licence our vertigo revolution software worth usd you are interested participating this program please send letter mail fax your institution letterhead briefly outlining your potential uses for vertigo together with the following information unix version model and number sgi systems peripheral devices third party software participants will asked contribute usd per institution cover costs the manual administration and shipping recommend that vertigo users subscribe our technical support services for annual fee you will receive technical assistance our support hotline bug fixes software upgrades and manual updates for educational institution will waive the administration fee support purchased the annual support fee plus the following cost for additional machines number machines additional cost per machine there also day training program nfotis contact vertigo technology inc suite west georgia vancouver canada phone fax does anyone know such offers from tdi alias softimage wavefront etc this would very interesting part nfotis padl basically solid modeling kernel top which you build your application available license from cornell programmable automation cornell university engineering and theory center ithaca license fees are very low for educational institutions and gov agencies internal commercial licenses and dissemination licenses are available for information packet write the above address send your address marisa cpa cornell edu richard marisa acis from spatial technology solid modelling kernel callable from heard that many universities got free copies from the company the person contact regarding acis academic institutions scott owens mail sdo spatial com and their address spatial technology inc bldg boulder phone fax movie byu cquel byu basically understanding this fem pre and post proccessor system fairly old today but still serves some people mech eng depts now superseded from cquel byu pronounced sequel that complete modelling animation and visualization package runs the usual workstation environments sun dec sgi ibm and others you can get demo version days trial period either sending usd their address blank tape costs for full run time licence contact engineering computer graphics lab clyde building brigham young univ provo phone mail cquel byu edu twixt soon add stuff about get reply fax voxblast volume renderer marketed vaytek inc fairfield iowa phone running pcs with fpu least call vaytek for more info voxelbox volume renderer for windows features include direct ray traced volume rendering color and alpha mapping gradient lighting animation reflections and shadows runs higher with least bit video card svga fine under windows costs contact jaguar software inc main suite winchester jwp world std com john poduska scene description languages nff neutral file format eric haines very simple there are some procedural database generators the spd package and many objects floating various ftp sites there also previewer written starbase from haines also there one written vogle you can use any the devices vogle can output check sites carrying vogle like gondwana ecr off object file format from dec randy rost rost kpc com the object archive server seems mothballed future version remove the ref nfotis available also through their mail server obtain help about using this service send message with subject line containing only the word help and null message b