alt.atheism	about the bible quiz answers article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy writes the cheribums are the ark the covenant when god said make graven image was refering idols which were created worshipped the ark the covenant wasn wrodhipped and only the high priest could enter the holy holies where was kept once year the day atonement not familiar with knowledgeable about the original language but believe there word for idol and that the translator would have used the word idol instead graven image had the original said idol think you wrong here but then again could too just suggesting way determine whether the interpretation you offer correct dean kaflowitz
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics article timmbake mcl timmbake mcl ucsb edu clam bake timmons writes fallacy atheism faith hear the faq beckoning once again wonderful rule deleted you correct you didn say anything about conspiracy correction hard atheism faith yes rule don mix apples with oranges how can you say that the extermination the mongols was worse than stalin khan conquered people unsympathetic his cause that was atrocious but stalin killed millions his own people who loved and worshipped him and his atheist state how can anyone worse than that will not explain this you again stalin did nothing the name atheism whethe was was not atheist irrelevant get grip man the stalin example was brought not indictment atheism but merely another example how people will kill others under any name that fit for the occasion look again while you never said the implication pretty clear sorry but can only respond your words not your true meaning usenet slippery medium deleted wrt the burden proof hard atheism has nothing prove then how does justify that god does not exist know there the faq etc but guess what those justifications were compelling why aren people flocking hard atheism they not and they won for one will discourage people from hard atheism pointing out those very sources reliable statements hard atheism look not supporting any dogmatic position fool say that the large group people that are atheists people exist who wish proselytize the same fashion religion how many hard atheists you see posting here anyway maybe just not looking hard enough second what makes you think defending any given religion merely recognizing hard atheism for what faith never meant although understand where you might get that idea was merely using the bible example allegory illustrate point and yes referring every reader the post where the evidence that the poster stated that relied upon evidence for what who think may have lost this thread why theists are arrogant deleted because they say such and such absolutely unalterably true because dogma says true not prepared issue blanket statements indicting all theists arrogance you are wont with atheists bzzt virtue your innocent little pronoun they you just issued blanket statement least will apologize qualifying original statement with hard atheist place atheist would you call john the baptist arrogant who boasted one greater than that what many christians today how that itself arrogant guilty charged what meant say was the theists who are arrogant are this way because they say other than that thought meaning was clear enough any position that claims itself superior another with supporting evidence arrogant thanks for your apology btw not worthy only seriously misinformed with your sophisticated put down they the theists your serious misinformation shines through explained above bake timmons iii there nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful life than some good memory alyosha brothers karamazov dostoevsky
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes bennett neil how bcci adapted the koran rules banking the times august let see some guy writes piece with title that implies something the case then must that gregg you haven provided even title article support your contention this how you support position you intend have anyone respect gregg any questions and even managed include the above reference with head firmly engaged ass what your excuse this supports nothing have reason believe that this piece anything other than another anti islamic slander job you also have reason believe anti islamic slander job apart from your own prejudices have respect for titles only for real content can look this article want true but can tell you bcci was not islamic bank why yes what mere report the times stating that bcci followed islamic banking rules gregg knows islam good and knows bcci were bad therefore bcci cannot have been islamic anyone who says otherwise obviously spreading slanderous propaganda someone wants discuss the issue more seriously then glad have real discussion providing references etc see someone wants provide references articles you agree with you will also respond with references articles you agree with mmm yes that would very intellectually stimulating debate doubtless that how you spend your time soc culture islam got special place for you kill file right next bobby want join him the more you post the more become convinced that simply waste time try and reason with moslems that what you are hoping achieve mathew
alt.atheism	christian morality article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes yet still not believer god not concerned with disposition why beneath him provide with the evidence would require believe the evidence that personality given this god would find compelling the fact god could cause you believe anything wants you but think about for minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you because they wanted love you the responsibility you love god and take step toward him promises there for you but you have look for yourself those who doubt this dispute have not givin sincere effort simple logic arguments are folly you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools those who tried trick him with logic our ability reason just spec creation yet some think the ultimate you rely simply your reason then you will never know more than you now learn you must accept that which you don know
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality article rusnews mantis mathew mantis mathew writes mccullou snake wisc edu mark mccullough writes article ursa bear com halat pooh bears jim halat writes atoms are not objective they aren even real what scientists call atom nothing more than mathematical model that describes certain physical observable properties our surroundings all which subjective this deserves framing really does atoms aren even real tell then those atoms have seen with electron microscopes are atoms now what are they figments our imaginations the evidence that atoms are real overwhelming but won bother with most evidence the moment sorry but having studied cell biology have say that can see through electron microscope therefore real laughable statement stuff deleted thank you thought was the twilight zone for moment still amazes that many people with science backgrounds still confuse the models and observables with what even they would call the real world jim halat article ursa bear com halat panther bears jim halat writes article apr princeton edu datepper phoenix princeton edu david aaron tepper writes you were liberal arts major weren tcha guess you never saw that photo the smallest logo the world ibm made with noble gas atoms krypton xenon forget the specifics atoms trees electrons are all independently observable and verifiable morals aren see the difference just for the record not that any kind information would likely affect your thinking have msee focus electromagnetics from penn photo the smallest logo the world does not atom make what was observed something can measure that matches what the mathematical model call atom had predicted much the same way that need both particle model and wave model for light the atomic model mathematical representation physical phenomena model that can and probably will continue change over time that makes subjective the model that however the model gives objective way talk about the physical world put another way the quantum mechanical model the atom allows for discussion the atom that will give repeatable and unambiguous results which objective however bohr and einstein duked out mid century the interpretation those reapeatable observable measurements quite subjective bohr said that the observable randomness atomic motion was inherent the nature the universe einstein said particle motion was deterministic but was our measurement shortcomings that introduced the randomness they were talking about the exact same results though jim halat
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes there lies the hypocrisy dude atheism takes much faith theism admit some people might think takes faith atheist but faith what does take some kind faith say that the great invisible pink unicorn does not exist does take some kind faith say that santa claus does not exist does and may for some people suppose certainly isn big leap faith say that these things and god exist suppose depends your notion and definition faith besides not believing god means one doesn have deal with all the extra baggage that comes with this leaves person feeling wonderfully free especially after beaten over the head with for years agree that religion and belief often important psychological healer for many people and for that reason think important however trying force psychological fantasy don mean that bad way but that what really someone else who isn interested extremely rude what still believed santa claus and said that belief santa did wonderful things for life making better person allowing live without guilt etc and then tried get you believe santa too just cuz did much for you call the men white coats soon you could get phone bake timmons iii nanci just babbling you know and are sure the author this quote please send email andrew cmu edu spring nature way saying let party
alt.atheism	southern baptist convention freemasonry with the southern baptist convention convening this june consider the charges that freemasonry incompatible with christianity thought the following quotes james holly the anti masonic flag carrier would amuse you all the following passages are exact quotes from the southern baptist convention and freemasonry james holly president mission and ministry men inc beaumont the inside cover the book states mission ministry men inc hereby grants permission for the reproduction part all this booklet with two provisions one the material not changed and two the source identified have followed these provisions freemasonry one the allies the devil page the issue here not moderate conservative the issue god and the devil page worthwhile remember that the formulators public school education america were freemasons page jesus christ never commanded toleration motive for his disciples and toleration the antithesis the christian message page the central dynamic the freemason drive for world unity through fraternity liberty and equality toleration this seen the writings the great writers freemasonry page jesus christ established the most sectarian all possible faiths page for narrowness and sectarianism there equal the lord jesus christ page what seems right the interest toleration and its cousins liberty equality and fraternity actually one the subtlest lies the father lies page the southern baptist convention has many churches which were founded the lodge and which have corner stones dedicated the lodge each these churches should hold public ceremonies repentance and praying the blood and the name the lord jesus christ over the church and renouncing the oaths taken the dedication the church and building page tony
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics article madhausc rfqo netcom com madhaus netcom com maddi hausmann writes clam bake timmons bill shit stirrer connor sorry gotta disagree with you this one maddi not the resemblence bill the nickname prefer half bake timmons bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	requests article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy writes bob you wanting excuse convert christianity you gonna have look elsewhere damn and did have hopes bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	thoughts christians article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes know you can get any physical problems passive christianity unlike smoking not that hard avoid christianity today anyway just ignore right keith err kent whadda you mean you didn see the smiley bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	what shit shoveler was amusing atheists and article qvn pinnj shelley washington edu jimh carson washington edu james hogan writes when the various bill conners and bobbys post here felt that their passive aggressive knock that chip off shoulder type approach meant that attempts reasoned argument would wasted still think that however while more primitive responses teasing bronx cheers sarcasm are somewhat satisfying apologies anyone who still thinks bobby performance artist some them feed pointless circular round hominem name calling witness precisely position newbie tried the point point approach debate with these types wasted both time and lifespan ignoring them not option since they don away and doing would leave one with large stretches complete anonymity this group what left healthy flaming sure occassion appeared little more than caustic boob some the bobby types but why waste breath arguing with someone whose most rational though process involves his excretory system and stand record recognizing these people long before most the rest the group let see what this timmons character has store for bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	christian morality article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes yet still not believer god not concerned with disposition why beneath him provide with the evidence would require believe the evidence that personality given this god would find compelling the fact god could cause you believe anything wants you but think about for minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you because they wanted love you first don expect them love they don even know exist secondly wouldn expect them love simply because they were creator would expect have earn that love the responsibility you love god and take step toward him promises there for you but you have look for yourself are you daft how love something don believe exists come back when you learned love your third testicle those who doubt this dispute have not givin sincere effort simple logic arguments are folly you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools those who tried trick him with logic our ability reason just spec creation yet some think the ultimate you rely simply your reason then you will never know more than you now learn you must accept that which you don know which point you have stepped over the line and become complete asshole even though your first offense won let slip becuase heard too goddamned many times you love jesus because deep your heart you cannibalistic necrophiliac because say and much more qualified assess your motivations than you are fortunately there are some things get accept evidence rather than faith one them being that until christians like yourself quit being fucking arrogant there will never peace you all made sure that bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	theism and fanatism was islamic genocide article dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes article horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes theism strongly correlated with irrational belief absolutes irrational belief absolutes strongly correlated with fanatism correlation not causation and belief that absolutes exist not the same thing belief absolutes any more than belief shortest route from thurles clonmel the same thing knowledge the irish roadsystem correlation not necessarily causation however you might have noticed the above allows conclude that the correlation between religion and fanatism based common features religious belief sorry for the long quotes but dont see where cut huh are you barking mad hardly theism not strongly correlated with fanaticism you say plus you could find stronger correlations you were actually interested the truth instead being you seeming are bigot theism correlated with fanaticism have neither said that all fanatism caused theism nor that all theism leads fanatism the point theism increases the chance becoming fanatic one could course argue that would fanatics tend towards theism for example but just have loook the times history when theism was the dominant ideology invalidate that conclusion that that the basic mechanism behind imo the influence stalin for that matter ayn rand invalidates your assumption that theism the factor considered gullibility blind obedience authority lack scepticism and are all more reliable indicators and the really dangerous people the sources fanaticism are often none these things they are cynical manipulators the gullible who know precisely what they are doing now some brands theism and more precisely some theists tend fanaticism grant you tar all theists with this brush bigotry not reasoned argument and reads like warm for censorship and restriction religious freedom ever read animal farm define irrational belief rational believe that reason always useful irrational belief belief that not based upon reason the latter has been discussed for long time with charley wingate one point that the beliefs violate reason often and another that process that does not lend itself rational analysis does not contain reliable information well there glaring paradox here argument that reason useful based reason would circular and argument not based reason would irrational which the first part the second statement contains information because you don say what the beliefs are the beliefs are strong theism and strong atheism then your statement not general true the second part your sentence patently false counterexample axiomatic datum does not lend itself rational analysis but assumed contain reliable information regardless what process used obtain compared the evidence theists have for their claims the strength their demands makes the whole thing not only irrational but antirational can agree with this until you are specific which theism say that all theism necessarily antirational requires proof which suspect you not have the affinity fanatism easily seen has true because believe nothing more than work hypothesis however the beliefs say they are more than work hypothesis don understand this can you formalise your argument frank dwyer not hatching that odwyer sse from hens evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	you will all hell decay cbnewsj att com dean kaflowitz writes article portal videocart com dfuller portal videocart com dave fuller writes jsn psuvm psu edu writes you blashephemers you will all hell for not believing god prepared for your eternal damnation what you mean prepared surrounded thumpers like yourself has proven hellish enough and not even dead yet well here how prepared got one those big beach umbrellas some those gel pack ice things big coleman cooler which loaded with miller draft like miller draft sue new pair new balance sneakers sony watchman and couple cartons bonton cheddar cheese popcorn stuff deleted actually you get ton weapons and ammunition followers and hole some kind compound and wait for alan deguzman calvin smart almost scary guess calculus mathematica child progeny disclaimer the university can afford opinions hobbes most children are
alt.atheism	you will all hell article portal videocart com dfuller portal videocart com dave fuller writes jsn psuvm psu edu writes you blashephemers you will all hell for not believing god prepared for your eternal damnation what you mean prepared surrounded thumpers like yourself has proven hellish enough and not even dead yet well here how prepared got one those big beach umbrellas some those gel pack ice things big coleman cooler which loaded with miller draft like miller draft sue new pair new balance sneakers sony watchman and couple cartons bonton cheddar cheese popcorn haven decided what wear yet what does one wear eternal damnation dean kaflowitz
alt.atheism	what shit shoveler was amusing atheists and article timmbake mcl timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes james hogan writes fine sentiments from his very first post jim assumed attack hominem sarcastic innuendo shit shoveled conveniently forgets this course and then whines about his boredom hominem sarcastic innuendo absolutely forgotten hardly bored not really try not confuse life with life just can overcome the urge tease taunt folks who bound faq less onto with such chip their shoulder listen you one might think belonged some church appreciate the patience others who questioned your posting line line content basis though hard know what impact that might have had compared say shovelling fact were truly interested ending the thread wouldn have posted his last shit shoveled think only lamented that whatever the initial satisfactions past certain point circular abuse heaping was just that bake timmons iii there nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful life than some good memory alyosha brothers karamazov dostoevsky sincere questions why are you here what are you looking for jim
alt.atheism	societally acceptable behavior qvh tinnsg citation ksu ksu edu yohan citation ksu ksu edu jonathan newton writes article qgm news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes merely question for the basis morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior disagree with these what society thinks should irrelevant what the individual decides all that important this doesn seem right want kill you can because that what decide who society think this fairly obvious not really whatever particular society mandates there are always some the society who disagree with the mandates which societal mandates make the standard for morality how they define what acceptable generally what they feel right which the most idiotic policy can think what should the basis unfortunately have admit being tied least loosely the feeling that think intuitively know some things wrong awfully hard defend though how keep from whatever legal what moral position thinking for ourselves might agree here just because certain actions are legal does not make them moral mac michael cobb and won raise taxes the middle university illinois class pay for programs champaign urbana bill clinton debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts still have billion dollar deficits michael cobb and won raise taxes the middle university illinois class pay for programs champaign urbana bill clinton debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody can explain everything anybody chesterton
alt.atheism	societally acceptable behavior guess delving into religious language area what exactly morality morals never thought eating meat moral immoral but think could how differentiate between not doing something because personal choice preference and not doing something because see immoral fall what the basis these morals are also consensus positions fall might makes right you brought out whatever right what societally mandated then whoever control the time makes what right mac michael cobb and won raise taxes the middle university illinois class pay for programs champaign urbana bill clinton debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody can explain everything anybody chesterton
alt.atheism	christian morality article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes yet still not believer god not concerned with disposition why beneath him provide with the evidence would require believe the evidence that personality given this god would find compelling the fact god could cause you believe anything wants you but think about for minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you because they wanted love you not again there difference between believing that god exists and loving him for instance satan certainly believes god exists but does not love him what unbelievers request situations like this that god provide evidence compelling enough believe exists not compel them love him the first day after christmas truelove served leftover turkey the second day after christmas truelove served turkey casserole that she made from leftover turkey days deleted flaming turkey wings pizza hut commercial and tlu gic bait ken arromdee arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu
alt.atheism	gulf war and peace niks article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes hawaii liberated from spain well you were going well until you hit this one hawaii was independent country coup americans led request annex the refused but eventually did annex several years later during the spanish american war the first day after christmas truelove served leftover turkey the second day after christmas truelove served turkey casserole that she made from leftover turkey days deleted flaming turkey wings pizza hut commercial and tlu gic bait ken arromdee arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu
alt.atheism	christian morality article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes the fact god could cause you believe anything wants you but think about for minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you because they wanted love you same old bullshit not being given delusions and wishful thinking not have the option either loving obeying that which have reason believe the responsibility you love god and take step toward him promises there for you but you have look for yourself those who doubt this dispute have not givin sincere effort more bullshit assure you misguided youth made sincere effort was very painful being rational person raised christian home many others could tell the same story you choose not believe anyone experience which contradicts your smug theories bill mayne
alt.atheism	societal basis for morality apr cnsvax uwec edu nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye writes reply cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb morals come from what societally accepted why follow that what right have expect others follow our notion societally mandated morality pardon the extremism but couldn murder your brother and say that was exercising rights saw them was doing what felt good didn want anyone forcing their morality don follow your morality believe that morality subjective each person entitled his own moral attitudes mine are not priori more correct than someone elses this does not mean however that must judge another the basis his rather than moral standards while entitled believe what his own moral sense tells him the rest society entitled pass laws spelling out punishments for behavior that offensive the majority why how might makes right how can they force their morality why can what want who are they decide what disagree most criminals not see their behavior moral the may realize that immoral and not care they are thus not following their own moral system but being immoral good point but being immoral our opinion don let them choose make the decision that their actions are wrong for them for someone lay claim alternative moral system must sincere his belief and must internally consistent some sociopaths lack innate moral sense admit lean toward the idea innate moral sense but have little basis for yet how far can such concept extended and thus may incapable behaving morally while someone like hitler may have believed that his actions were moral may judge him immoral our standards you mean that could say would wrong for such thing but not him after all was behaving morally his own eyes and doing what chose what basis condemn other societies besides here the buzz words the idea that there are some actions wrong for all humans all societies holding that morality subjective does not mean that must excuse the murderer why not have objective suddenly david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire this patently absurd but whoever wishes become philosopher must learn not frightened absurdities bertrand russell mac michael cobb and won raise taxes the middle university illinois class pay for programs champaign urbana bill clinton debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody can explain everything anybody chesterton
alt.atheism	nicknames article dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu scott sauyet writes okay how about scott can anybody hear sauyet ssauyet eagel wesleyan edu could you speak can hear you sole intention was learning fly
alt.atheism	free moral agency article pxqs darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes dean kaflowitz decay cbnewsj att com wrote now what interested the original notion you were discussing moral free agency that how can god punish person for not believing him when that person only following his her nature and not possible for that person deny what his her reason tells him her which that there god dean think you letting atheist mythology great start realize immediately that you are not interested discussion and are going thump your babble would much prefer answer from healy who seems have reasonable and reasoned approach things say aren you the creationist guy who made lot silly statements about evolution some time ago confuse you the issue divine justice according the most fundamental doctrines christianity when the first man sinned was that time the entire human race and any punishment meted out would necessarily affect the entire race which was the sole representive all humans coming after him would being the same race species share that judgement has nothing with who deserves what from the perspective god humanity but one category created things and that category condemned duh gee then must talking christian mythology now was hoping discuss something with reasonable logical person but all you seem have for your side repetition the same boring mythology seen thousand times before deleting the rest your remarks unless spot something that approaches answer because they are merely repetition some uninteresting doctrine other and contain thought all have congratulate you though bill you wouldn know logical argument bit you the balls such persistent lack function the face repeated attempts assist you learning which have seen this forum and others the past speaks talent that goes well beyond own meager abilities just don seem have that capacity for ignoring outside influences dean kaflowitz
alt.atheism	morality constant was biblical rape last response this thread fell into bit bucket and vanished though appearing locally repost since always feel slighted when someone appears ignore one postings conversational thread don want rob think doing since this now dated however don feel compelled respond article apr watson ibm com strom watson ibm com rob strom writes was making two separate points both which attack face value bible interpretation judge the bible value today you judge based the way used today that what commentators actually say what rabbis teach etc suspect you meant this context the jewish tradition you have been referring one problem with highly interpreted tradition like this what happens when schism occurs and over time certain large and influential branches the heretical group come favor exactly face value interpretation judge the bible value when originally written you read the context its time not with today assumptions and compare the practices surrounding people while the context the time important value judgments must ultimately according current understanding least some base standard relative stability success society this obviously true comparing practices surrounding people for instance according the bible the surrounding people were immoral savages with repulsive and inhuman habits need look rather what those peoples were really like for instance what way better worship single god whose presence symbolically strongest tent temple over multiple gods some whose presence symbolically represented statue the bible own terms idolatry inherently evil but see evidence that the followers the various other religions the area and time were particularly bad people relative the people the bible scissors and cloth now the past our ancestors did cut cloth with scissors but they least knew that their inhumane neighbors cut with their bare teeth this was relatively enlightened step forward from their earlier barbarism and made the transition modern civilized paper cutting that much easier sounds good but presupposes teeth rending neighbors which see support for one can argue that post facto assertion inhumane neighbors can used make moral points but that doesn mean that the actual neighbors really were inhuman more the point such dehumanization the people across the river over the mountain even different people dwelling among all too common that complex and benign moral traditions have evolved based particular mythic interpretations that history interesting but still don think fair take that long tradition interpretation and use attack condemnation the original history note that speaking historical interpretation here for instance claiming that hammurabi eye for eye was primitive brutal retribution while moses version was enlightened benign fine because the tradition has since interpreted the phrase that way years ago they probably both meant the same thing sure arguing from parochial perspective belong this tiny tribe which has struggled against overwhelming odds for survival distinct tribe and this book the book tribe the book commands dedicate ourselves study improve the world and set example light the nations revered the book and think been successful scientists artists and musicians leaders important humanitarian causes hard for separate the success people from the virtue our book you have argue that have done significantly better with different book with book that another tribe with different book with book has done significantly better don belittle the accomplishments particularly the intellectual ones the jewish people have given trying think analogy since don know any other tribe that all similar the closest can think are the romany but don know enough about them make meaningful comparison think tradition reflective study flexible rather than dogmatic interpretation good thing think that with such attitude case could made that you could have done well starting with captain america comic whatever the babylonian equivalent would have been jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours
alt.atheism	satanic verses once again this posting has been delayed for about week falling between some software cracks article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes promised here rafiq zakaria discussion the nature the called satanic verses from which rushdie title has been taken rafiq zakaria muhammad and the quran penguin here follows introduction the controversial incident and apologetic explanation purporting show why couldn actually have happened the historicity the episode doesn matter what follows don know whether quoting gregg zakaria below anyway back current affairs rushdie has his own admission drawn the version given the orientalist watt among others this incident not something rushdie watt anyone else dug from nowhere well known story myth you will known according umar khan every muslim school boy and girl and presumably rushdie and gibreel farishta and then allowed his imagination run wild yes this what writing fiction all about rushdie was writing about crisis faith and chose this myth present placing the actor gibreel the role the angel whose name took rushdie was not writing history theology book and nowhere claims implies that this what actually happened somewhat like stories woven around the relationship between jesus and the reformed prostitute mary magdalene another myth those referring the arthurian mythos the grail legend the wandering jew dozens others you can stand read the work blasphemer consider salman rushdie children book haroun and the sea stories for idea the way storyteller specific storyteller works with existing story lines ridicule muhammad integrity muhammad mahound integrity not really impugned this part the story and there reason think this was rushdie intent gibreel the archangel produces the verses divine and satanic though doesn know their provenance not implied straight reading that muhammad influences them not voice never know such words classy speaker never was never will but this isn voice voice mahound eyes open wide seeing some kind vision staring that right gibreel remembers seeing lips moving being moved what whom don know can say nevertheless here they are coming out mouth throat past teeth the words being god postman fun yaar butbutbut god isn this picture god knows whose postman been ambiguous mahound somehow manipulating gibreel satan something else the answer not given sure the question raised this novel explores faith and the role revelation religion among other things addressing loss faith implicitly raises questions about the truth revelation but this novel proposes answers least not directly the very existence newsgroup named alt atheism raises the same questions more forcefully and does propose some answers which the real relevance rushdie mild fictional exploration filth and lies and asked for what got are next the fatwa list that rhetorical question course jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours
alt.atheism	who says the apostles were tortured another article that fell between the cracks article qiu innpq srvr engin umich edu ingles engin umich edu ray ingles writes evidence for the resurrection often claimed that the disciples were tortured death for their beliefs and still did not renounce their claim that jesus had come back from the dead now skimmed acts and such and found reference this happening stephen but others where does this apparently very widely held belief come from there any evidence outside the bible there any evidence the bible sure haven found any briefly there widespread folklore but good documentary evidence even solid rumor concerning the deaths the apostles further the usual context such arguments you observe martyrs for lie the willingness these people die rather than recant evidence for the truth their belief this adds the quite stronger twist that the proposed martyrs must have been offered the chance life recanting since don even know how where they died certainly don have this information the way even the case stephen not all clear that could have saved himself recanting the willingness true believers die for their belief jesus jim jones well documented martyrdom and itself says little see kings for biblical account the martyrdom priests baal jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours
alt.atheism	who has read rushdie the satanic verses another one rescued from the bit bucket over the years the furor over this book has been discussed and elsewhere the net generally the discussion comes down the contention the one hand that tsv contains such blood libel against islam merit not death than least banning and probably some sort punishment and the other that rushdie particularly non muslim western country had every right write and publish whatever chose regardless whether some muslims find offensive without fear persecution death naturally inclined the latter position but find myself interesting position because think this fine book only incidentally concerned with islam and moreover damned can find anything malevolently offensive over the years when have made this point various primarily muslim posters have responded saying that yes indeed they have read the book and had called such things filth and lies would rank rushdie book with hitler mein kempf worse and unfortunately these comments are usually generalities and attempts follow requesting explanations for what specifically offensive have met either with stony silence more generalizations inaccurate out context references the book which lead believe that few them have actually read corrections and attempts discuss the text context have been ignored anyway since seem the only one following this particular line discussion wonder how many the rest the readership have read this book what are your thoughts jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours
alt.atheism	morality constant was biblical rape this response originally fell into bit bucket reposting just bill doesn think ignoring him article jxd darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes jim perry perry dsinc com wrote some stuff about biblical morality though bill quote had little with what goes say bill sorry have been busy lately and only just getting around this apparently you have some fundamental confusions about atheism think many these are well addressed the famous faq your generalisms are then misplaced atheism needn imply materialism the lack absolute moral system however tend materialism and don believe absolute morality answer your questions how then can atheist judge value atheist judges value the same way that theist does according personal understanding morality that don believe absolute one doesn mean that don have one just explicit the line postings you followed that when express judgment moral issue basing judgment own code rather than claiming that some absolute sense good bad moral code not particular different from that others around they christians muslims atheists when say that object genocide not expressing anything particularly out line with what society holds your were ask why think morality exists and has the form does answer would mechanistic your taste that moral code prerequisite for functioning society and that humanity probably evolved morality know part the evolution our ability exist large societies thereby achieving considerable survival advantages you probably say that god just made the rules neither can convince the other but share common understanding about many moral issues you think you get from your religion think get and you get from early childhood teaching that you don like what god told people says nothing about god god commands says only that there was electrical event your nervous system that created emotional state that your mind coupled with pre existing thought set form that reaction think you been reading the wrong sort comic books but prying through the gobbledygook basically agree with what you saying believe that mental reactions stimuli such god commanded the genocide the canaanites mechanistic but course think that true you well reaction has little with whether god exists even with whether think does but god existed who commanded genocide could not consider him good which supposedly attribute god all this being you have excluded yourself from any discussion values right wrong goood evil etc and cannot participate your opinion about the bible can have weight whatsoever hmm yes think some heavy faq reading would you some good have much place discussing values etc any other person fact can actually accomplish something such discussion framing the questions terms reason for instance clear that environment where neighboring tribes periodically attempt wipe each other out based imagined divine commands then the quality life will generally poor system that fosters coexistence superior quality life agreed goal absolutist the other hand can only thump those portions bible they happen agree with and say this good even the act question unequivocally bad the standards everyone the discussion the attempt define someone group people excluded from discussion such that they cannot participate and their opinions given weight whatsoever the lowest form reasoning hominem poisoning the well and presumably the resort someone who can rationally defend their own ideas right wrong and the bible jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours
alt.atheism	origins the bible article apr nott eczcaw mips nott wainwright writes have been having argument about the origins the bible lately with theist acquaintance stated that thousands bibles were discovered certain point time which were syllable perfect this therefore meant that there must have been one copy certain time the time quoted acquaintace was approximately years after the death jesus you can tell your friend from that was publisher warehouse one time and saw thousands copies the joy cooking and every one them was syllable perfect have since sold all own and become follower the joy cooking the incident mentioned convinced once and for all that the joy cooking inspired god and the one true path his glory dean kaflowitz may the sauce with you
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics article qsum inng shelley washington edu jimh carson washington edu james hogan writes think you missed the point take alt atheism for instance exponent based anagram when fully extended translates dig tunnels deep store grain everywhere prepare for the coming struggle you doubt recognize this quote from chairman mao thus think you have admit that atheists have lot more their sleeve than you might have suspected agnostics will sent the gulag under the mao atheist new order now where did put little red book was that green jim god dead and the actor plays his part sting his words fear will find their way place your heart history without the voice reason every faith its own curse will teach without freedom from the past things can only get worse nothing
alt.atheism	christian morality dan schaertel dps nasa kodak com wrote since this alt atheism hope you don mind strongly disagree the fact god could cause you believe anything wants you but think about for minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you because they wanted love you the responsibility you love god and take step toward him promises there for you but you have look for yourself indeed knock and shall opened you dan why didn this work firmly believed god for years but eventually realised was only deluding myself fearful face the truth ultimately the only reason what kept believing was the fear hell the mental states had sillily attributed divine forces devil attempts destroy faith were nothing more than imagination and easy achieve the same mental states will faith was just learned fear disguise those who doubt this dispute have not givin sincere effort god demanding too much dan what was believed for years sincere effort equivalent active suspension disbelief what was case rather quit god does not help keep the faith can besides concerned with god morality and mental health does she really want believe herself without any help revelations guidance anything can feel she has created why didn she make the task any easier why are supposed love someone who refuses communicate with what the point eternal torture for those who can believe love god just much she loves she wants seduce she know what simple logic arguments are folly you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools those who tried trick him with logic our ability reason just spec creation yet some think the ultimate you rely simply your reason then you will never know more than you now your argument the type you know once you try yet there are many atheists who have sincerely tried and believed for many years but were eventually honest enough admit that they had lived virtual reality what else but reason can use don have the spiritual means christians often refer conscience disagrees with the bible don even believe have soul fully dependent body indeed this body when goes with flames does identity god can entertain herself with copies she wants learn you must accept that which you don know what does this mean learn you must accept that you don know something right but learn you must accept something don know why this not the way prefer learn unwise merely swallow everything you read suppose write book telling how the great invisible pink unicorn has helped daily problems would you accept this since you can know whether true not note that the gipu also omnipotent omnipresent and loves just about everyone besides and she guiding every writer this planet you and and not just some people who write legendary stories years ago your god just one aspect his and her presence petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics the truth pihatie finou oulu physics the rule oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu chemistry the game
alt.atheism	gulf war selling arms article rusnews mantis mathew mathew mantis writes mccullou snake wisc edu mark mccullough writes from parallel thread much about definitions bombs etc deleted aaaahhh tell how many innocents were killed concentration camps hmm now how many more were scheduled enter concentration camps had they not been shut down because they were captured the allies hmm now civilians died that war matter what you civilians die what the proper course don sell the bastard arms and information the first place ruthlessly hunt down those who especially they positions power mathew agree this seems the crux your whole position isn that the shouldn have supported hussein and sold him arms fight iran agree and agree ruthlessly hunting down those who did but did sell arms hussein and done deal now invades kuwait just sit back and say well sold him all those arms suppose just wants use them now too bad for kuwait unfortunately sitting back and letting things not the way correct former mistake destroying hussein military potential did was the right move but agree with your statement reagan and bush made grave error judgment sell arms hussein really not the gulf war you abhor much was the and the west shortsightedness selling arms hussein which ultimately made the war inevitable right then agree more deleted mathew regards jim
alt.atheism	studies book mormon think that the transcedental temptation paul kurtz has good section the origins mormonism you might want look scott
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics article timmbake mcl timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes from timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons subject amusing atheists and agnostics date apr gmt some big deletions many atheists show poor understanding human nature many people who would otherwise sympathize with their cause only shake their heads disbelief such childish ranting another string idiotic generalizations gad surprised got this far down the post guess some just like seeing their names crt like phil trodwell this space happy ram goddam volt cattle for rent prod into that tub with you right now but not cheap this radio hunter thompson
alt.atheism	where are they now perhaps prophetic that the week where are they now appears and can claim still active old timer news software gets bit rot and ships outgoing articles into deep hole somewhere anyway here repost article innf senator bedfellow mit edu tcbruno athena mit edu tom bruno writes which brings the point posting how many people out there have been around alt atheism since done damnedest stay top the newsgroup but when you fall behind you really fall behind these days you don have fall far behind last monday admittedly after long weekend but had messages just those few days aside from hiatus while changing jobs last fall been here since has anyone tried keep with the deluge inquiring minds want know also does anyone keep track where the more infamous posters alt atheism end once they leave the newsgroup just curious guess hell norway the rubber room the funny farm seminary not given know jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours
alt.atheism	strong weak atheism did that faq ever got modified define strong atheists not those who assert the nonexistence god but those who assert that they believe the nonexistence god there was thread this earlier but didn get the outcome adam nickname cooper adam john cooper verily often have laughed the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had claws
alt.atheism	faith and dogma article apr edt neat toronto edu tgk toronto edu todd kelley writes light what happened waco need get something chest sadly understandable faith and dogma are dangerous yes religion inherently encourages the implementation faith and dogma and for that reason scorn religion fair you should really qualify this semitic western religions but you basically ahead and this later anyway have expressed this notion the past some christians debated with whether christianity leaves any room for reasoning claimed rationality quelled out christianity faith and dogma again this should really evaluated personal level for example there was only one jesus presumably and probably didn say all that many things and yet seemingly billions and billions christian sects have arisen perhaps there one that totally dedicated rationalism and believes christ pantheism would seem against the bible but amazing what people come with under the guise personal interpretation philosopher cannot christian because philosopher can change his mind whereas christian cannot due the nature faith and dogma present any religion this good point have here the quintessential christian sets system values beliefs for himself which work very well and every event experience understandable and deablable within the framework this system however also have individual who has the inability least not without some difficulty change which important because the problem with such system the same with any system one cannot open minded the point testing hypotheses against the basic premise the system without destroying whatever faith invested therein unless course all the tests fail other words the fairer way would test and evaluate moralities without the bias responsibility losing retaining system claimed that christian philosopher not christian but person whose beliefs the moment correspond with those christianity consider that person visiting guarding prison not prisoner unless you define prisoner simply someone prison can define prisoner someone who the moment prison can define christian someone who the moment has christian beliefs because person free not prisoner similarly person not constrained faith and dogma not christian interesting but again when seems basically boil down individual nuances although not always will admit and probably the mass oriented divisions which are the most appalling becomes irrelevant unfortunately admit word game going the dictionary definition religion religion concern over what exists beyond the visible world differentiated from philosophy that operates through faith intuition rather than reason webster now let beyond the word game don claim that religion causes genocide think that all humans were atheist there would still genocide there will always humans who don think there will always humans who don ask themselves what the real difference between themselves and people with different colored skin different language different beliefs granted religion like the gun that doesn kill anybody religion encourages faith and dogma and although doesn directly condemn people encourages the use just because thinking just because thinking that kills people which case the people become the bullets and the religion the gun merely offers them way more adequately some harm with themselves may bold extend your similie sure religion has many good qualities encourages benevolence and philanthropy take out only the bad things like faith dogma and tradition put the good things like careful reasoning and science the result secular humanism wouldn nice everyone were secular humanist please the supernaturalists you might even leave god there but the secular emphasis would cause the supernaturalists start thinking and they too would realize that belief god really doesn put anyone further ahead understanding the universe just poking fun the supernaturalists also understandable course not all humans are capable thought and still have genocide and maybe even some mass suicide but not much willing bet that todd todd kelley tgk toronto edu department computer science university toronto best regards adam john cooper verily often have laughed the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had claws
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article mvo blaze jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu ken arromdee writes article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes think many reading this group would also benefit knowing how deviant the view articulated above which may not the true view khomeini from the basic principles islam from the point view atheist see you claim khomeini wasn practicing true islam but sure that would have said the same about you how member neither group supposed able tell which one you two really true muslim this very good point have already made the clear claim that khomeini advocates views which are contradition with the qur and have given arguments for this this something that can checked anyone sufficiently interested khomeini being dead really can respond but another poster who supports khomeini has responded with what clearly obfuscationist sophistry this should quite clear atheists they are less susceptible religionist modes obfuscationism answer your question the only way you can judge learning more about islam that reading the qur and understanding basic principles once one has done this relatively easy see who following the principles islam and who acting way odds with islam khomeini attributing superhuman status twelve muslim historical leaders variance with one basic principles islam which that human being metaphysically different than any other human being and sense any closer god metaphysical nature gregg
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes this supports nothing have reason believe that this piece anything other than another anti islamic slander job have respect for titles only for real content can look this article want true but can tell you bcci was not islamic bank seeing spending time responding propaganda responding this little sub thread really don feel deep need more than make statements the effect that the propaganda false someone wants discuss the issue more seriously then glad have real discussion providing references etc but you must admit that this more thorough argument supporting proposition than your propganda because say hope you can see why might not find this argument compelling you want refute point then but right well again doing much the poster was replying too quite busy and really don have the time respond full scholarly form every accusation that flippantly made someone who being clearly antagonistic and have you ever considered that perhaps these people actually believe what they say that they are not just spreading propaganda have considered but someone spreads falsehoods out ignorance then they are still spreading falsehoods those falsehoods generally not come out nowhere but are produced people who know that what they are saying least not the whole truth still consider such spreading falsehoods propaganda some level not position say since know nothing about the situation that does not estimation qualify having head ass bob never accused you having your head your ass takes quite some time dealing with someone before accusing them having their head their ass was accusing the original poster benedikt believe being impaired cheers gregg
alt.atheism	who says the apostles were tortured the willingness true believers die for their belief jesus jim jones well documented martyrdom and itself says little does say something about the depth their belief religion has both deluded believers and con men the difference often how far they will follow their beliefs have first hand even second hand knowledge how the original apostles died they began myth hopes exploiting for profit and followed that myth the death that would inconsistent real con men would bail out when was obvious would lead discomfort pain and death the story kings regarding the prophets baal help this debate one can easily assume that they believed that overwhelming vindication elijah would forthcoming was simply fool who would shown the fire from heaven was swift and their seizure and deaths were equally swift
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article unix portal com danb shell portal com dan babcock writes article mvo blaze jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu ken arromdee writes article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes think many reading this group would also benefit knowing how deviant the view articulated above which may not the true view khomeini from the basic principles islam from the point view atheist see you claim khomeini wasn practicing true islam but sure that would have said the same about you how member neither group supposed able tell which one you two really true muslim easy just read the koran because the koran perfect there possibility disagreement okay see smilies this isn supposed serious post the other hand would suppose does has some motivation behind apparently the idea poke fun religion but there presumably some sort reasoning behind argument this statement worthless presuming the qur perfect religious text whatever that might there still plenty room for disagreement about its implications for issues far from essentials already responded the question how judgment might made between two people who fact disagree about islam which doesn presume anything about the qur other than its having sufficient clarity for all important disputes about the basic principles islam this hardly constitutes claim that two people could have disagreements about all issues relevant islam gregg
alt.atheism	societally acceptable behavior article qgm news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes from cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb subject societally acceptable behavior date mon apr gmt merely question for the basis morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior who society how they define what acceptable how keep from whatever legal what moral position mac wow you got thinking now this interesting question that recently there has been move society classify previously socially unacceptable yet legal activities the past seems there were always two coexisting methods social control first and most explicit legal control that the set actions define currently illegal and having specifically defined set punishments secondly and somewhat more hidden social control these are the actions which are considered socially unacceptable and while not covered legal control are scrictly controled social censure ideally socialization working should legal control hardly ever needed since most people voluntarilly control their actions due the pressure social censure the control manifests itself day day life guilt and morality heard said and fully believe that weren for the vast majority people policing themselves legal control would absolutely impossible lately last years however there has been move attempt dissengage the individual from societal control ain illegal then don pick not saying this wrong merely that byproduct society which has high education level high exposure alternative ideas via the popular media high level institutionalized individual rights and oriented culture guess what saying that appear state transition here the western world that still have many ideas about what can can allow people based entirely personal squeamishness yet are fully bent maximizing individual freedoms the max long those freedoms don impinge another imho society trying persue two mutually exclusive ends here while appreciate and persue individual rights these satisfy the old territoriality and dominance instincts the removal socialized inherent fears based ignorance will result the continued destabilization society got quick fix have idea how can get ourselves out this mess know would never consent the roll back personal freedoms order stabilize society yet believe development societies follow darwinian process which selects for stability can find social model which maximizes indiv freed yet stable perhaps possible live with non stable society anybody see way out comments therefore answer question don want phil trodwell this space happy ram goddam volt cattle for rent prod into that tub with you right now but not cheap this radio hunter thompson
alt.atheism	gulf war was death penalty was political atheists article rusnews mantis mathew mathew mantis writes don sell the bastard arms and information the first place ruthlessly hunt down those who especially they positions power looked back this and asked some questions various people and got the following information which had claimed and you pooh poohed the has not sold iraq any arms their navy entirely made ussr vessels their airforce not including stuff captured from kuwait which not sure about doesn include any equipment their missiles are all non their tanks are almost all soviet with about french tanks older ones the only stuff the iraqi arsenal few those were not sold iraq iraq captured them from other countries like kuwait information hard prove you are claiming that the sold information prove now how did the build iraq again just gave some fairly conclusive evidence that the didn sell arms iraq information hard prove almost certainly the did sell information then that fact classified and you can prove you can provide some useful evidence that the sold arms valuable intelligence iraq very interested but not you just make claims based what everyone knows mccullou whipple wisc edu never program and drink beer the same time doesn work
alt.atheism	who has read rushdie the satanic article innknk bozo dsinc com perry dsinc com jim perry writes anyway since seem the only one following this particular line discussion wonder how many the rest the readership have read this book what are your thoughts read found wonderful for some reason flames please was reminded hemingway carl orff and van gogh not all once though geoff arnold nfs architect sun select geoff arnold east sun com what they made the whole thing the great lie four guys two thousand years ago over wine the tear garden
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality reply frank uucp frank dwyer the problem for the objectivist determine the status moral truths and the method which they can established accept that such judgements are not reports what but only relate what ought see naturalistic fallacy then they cannot proved any facts about the nature the world this can avoided least two ways leaving the good undefined since anyone who claims that they not know what either lying out touch with humanity undeserving reply the good undefined undefinable but you require everyone that they know innately what right you are back subjectivism defining the good solely terms evaluative terms ditto here evaluative statement implies value judgement the part the person making this point the objectivist may talk self evident truths pretty perceptive that prof flew but can deny the subjectivist claim that self evidence the mind the beholder course denying that subject object true dichotomy please explain how this helps don see your argument not what left the claim that some moral judgements are true nothing then moral judgements are true this thing that commonly referred nihilism entails that science value irrepective the fact that some people find useful how anyone arrives relativism subjectivism from this argument beats this makes sense either flew arguing that this where the objectivist winds not the subjectivist furthermore the nihilists believed nothing except science materialism revolution and the people the subjectivist may well feel that all that remains that there are some moral judgements with which would wish associate himself hold moral opinion suggests not know something true but have preferences regarding human activity and those preferences should include terrorism that moral opinion not true likewise the preferences should include noterrorism that moral opinion not true why should one choose set preferences which include terrorisim over one which includes noterrorism reason this patently absurd and also not the position the subjectivist has been pointed out you already others ditch the strawman already and see reply mike cobb root message the thread societal basis for morality david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire this patently absurd but whoever wishes become philosopher must learn not frightened absurdities bertrand russell
alt.atheism	has risen reply kmr cwru edu keith ryan our lord and savior david keresh has risen has been seen alive spread the word jeez can get anything straight told him wait for three days god david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire this patently absurd but whoever wishes become philosopher must learn not frightened absurdities bertrand russell
alt.atheism	college atheists read article about poll done students the ivy league schools which was reported that third the students indentified themselves atheists this lot higher than among the general population wonder what the reasons for this discrepancy are because they are more intelligent younger this the wave the future david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire this patently absurd but whoever wishes become philosopher must learn not frightened absurdities bertrand russell
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics reply timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons the same kind ignorance demonstrated just about every post this newsgroup for instance generalizations about christianity are popular which newsgroup have you been reading the few anti christian posts are virtually all response some christian posting some you will all burn hell kind drivel soft atheist courtesy the faq but even know enough about the bible see that repeatedly warns false prophets preaching the name god bake transparently obvious that you are theist pretending atheist you probably think you are very clever but see this all the time but the possibilities creator and eternity carry with them too much emotional power dismiss merely the basis this line but course you have dismissed them because you are atheist right just like any other religion hard atheism faith other words you didn read the faq after all david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire this patently absurd but whoever wishes become philosopher must learn not frightened absurdities bertrand russell
alt.atheism	what shit shoveler was amusing atheists and reply jimh carson washington edu james hogan what someone with prediliction shit shoveling when the latest know what you atheists are about arrival shows ignore the bills bobbys bakes try engage reasonable discourse while flame fests have been among some the most entertaining threads here other tugs war with folks like bobby have grown old before their time take the view that they are here for our entertainment when they are longer entertaining into the kill file they david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire this patently absurd but whoever wishes become philosopher must learn not frightened absurdities bertrand russell
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics timmbake mcl ucsb edu half bake timmons writes maddi whirr click whirr frank dwyer might also contained that shell pop stack determine whirr click whirr killfile keith allen schneider frank closet theist dwyer maddi the mad sound geek hausmann already been named killfile keith nickname maddi never useful post hausmann and don you dare forget half there nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful life than some good memory alyosha brothers karamazov dostoevsky you really should quote ivan karamazov instead was the atheist maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california kids please don try this home remember post professionally
alt.atheism	death penalty was political athei date tue apr from mathew mathew mantis there great film called manufacturing consent noam chomsky and the media canadian film saw the berlin film festival this year you get chance and see can really recommend any books from having read them thinking ordering book which reviewer claimed gives good introduction his political activism could dig the title mathew could the chomsky reader edited james peck published pantheon
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics date apr gmt from bake timmons timmbake mcl ucsb edu remember koresh dried for your sins and pass that beef jerky umm umm though wasn there least can rely you now keep posted what what doing what cook off
alt.atheism	societally acceptable behavior cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes merely question for the basis morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior who society society the collection individuals which will fall under self defined rules terms decisions all the sets peoples who are represented the are considered part that society then look federal laws provided representatives purely citizens then the society for that case would the citizens the and how they define what acceptable acceptable are those behaviours which are either legislated for the society representatives that society those behaviours which are non verbally and effect non consciously such picking your nose the oprah winfrey show one does but there explicit law against doing many cases there are definition whether not behaviour acceptable but one can deduce these behaviours observation how keep from whatever legal what moral position increasingly litigation mad society this trap becoming exceedingly difficult avoid with the infusion and strengthening ethnic cultures american and australian bring local perspective culture the boundaries acceptable behaviour are ever widening and legislation may eventually become the definition moral behaviour for instance some cultures dominant religion call for live sacrifice domesticated animals most fundamental christians would find this practice abhorrent however moral according the multicultural american society this kind problem may only definable legislation obviously within any society there will differences opinion what acceptable behaviour not and much this will due different environmental circumstances rather than merely different opinions one thing for sure there universal moral code which will suit all cultures all situations there may however some globally accepted mores which can agreed upon and instantiated globally enforcable concept the majority mores will not common until all peoples upon this earth are living similar environment that ever happens jeff nonickname clark
alt.atheism	you will all hell article apr nuscc nus cmtan iss nus tan chade meng dan writes from cmtan iss nus tan chade meng dan subject you will all hell date tue apr gmt article jsn psuvm psu edu jsn psuvm psu edu writes you blashephemers you will all hell for not believing god prepared for your eternal damnation arrgg another one those another letter the big guy dear god please take them back heaven leave rational intelligent people alone love meng the unenlightened one tan chade meng there light the end the tunnel singapore cmtan iss nus coming train meng have better prayer dear god please save the world from the likes these tammy
alt.atheism	you will all hell article cbnewsj att com decay cbnewsj att com dean kaflowitz writes from decay cbnewsj att com dean kaflowitz subject you will all hell date tue apr gmt article portal videocart com dfuller portal videocart com dave fuller writes jsn psuvm psu edu writes you blashephemers you will all hell for not believing god prepared for your eternal damnation what you mean prepared surrounded thumpers like yourself has proven hellish enough and not even dead yet well here how prepared got one those big beach umbrellas some those gel pack ice things big coleman cooler which loaded with miller draft like miller draft sue new pair new balance sneakers sony watchman and couple cartons bonton cheddar cheese popcorn haven decided what wear yet what does one wear eternal damnation dean kaflowitz you should wear your nicest boxer shorts and bring plenty spf sunscreen grab bathing suit towerl and some veggie hotdogs and can have bonfire cookout does that sound good enough you dean every poster invited tammy trim healy
alt.atheism	death penalty gulf war long from jbrown batman bmd trw com actually was the fact that both situations existed that prompted and allied action some back water country took over some other back water country probably wouldn intervene not that don care but can the world policman coup had occured kuwait instead invasion then still wouldn have acted because there would not have been the imminent danger perceived saudi arabia but the combination the two unprovoked invasion genocidal tyrant and the potential danger the west oil interests caused take action there are many indications that would have taken place had saddam been wanting planning going into saudi arabia there were none this has been openly stated pentagon analysts pull from jbrown batman bmd trw com not setting strawman all you want argue against the war then the only logical alternative was allow hussein keep kuwait diplomatic alternatives including sanctions were ineffective actually reports from other mid east countries showed that hussein was ready make concessions due the sanctions just didn want him wanted crush him well battle test all these high tech toys built over the years from jbrown batman bmd trw com probably because not the saviors the world can police each and every country that decides self destruct invade another nor are strategic position get relief tibet east timor some other places also hypocrites the first magnitude obviously don give shit about freedom and democracy all care about our oil and the excuse now that the soviets are gone from the board keep sizable military presence the gulf region care make bets about when all our troops will come home basically saddam was with was killer who tortured his own people used gas them and other horrors was brutal dictator but was our brutal dictator once said fuck you the became the next hitler the same for noriega was bastard but was our bastard until changed his mind and went his own way then had get rid him david hunt graduate slave mind own towards both mechanical engineering are ideas opinions palestinian and carnegie mellon university use golden rule jewish homeland email bluelobster cmu edu working towards piled higher and deeper will great day when scientists and engineers have all the money they need and religions have beg for money pay the priest
alt.atheism	societally acceptable behavior article news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes qvh tinnsg citation ksu ksu edu yohan citation ksu ksu edu jonathan newton writes article qgm news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes merely question for the basis morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior disagree with these what society thinks should irrelevant what the individual decides all that important this doesn seem right want kill you can because that what decide exactly although this may dissapointing answer there has interplay the two personal ethos and societal morality person self generated learned set beliefs are usually expressed purely mental verbal level and don usually find expression society except impure not the sense bad state sometimes this has who society think this fairly obvious not really whatever particular society mandates there are always some the society who disagree with the mandates which societal mandates make the standard for morality also what one feels oneself part more than one society very real sense use the obvious example there political society and racial society and gender society and sometimes they not always agree every issue how they define what acceptable generally what they feel right which the most idiotic policy can think what should the basis unfortunately have admit being tied least loosely the feeling that think intuitively know some things wrong awfully hard defend though yes perhaps with infamous what you want long doesn hurt others the problem with this that merely saying what you can not morality that doesn propound any specifically preferred behaviours how keep from whatever legal what moral position thinking for ourselves might agree here just because certain actions are legal does not make them moral add hearty two however one could just well say just because certain actions are moral does not make them legal one still doesn really get impression which one truly right mac michael cobb and won raise taxes the middle university illinois class pay for programs champaign urbana bill clinton debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts still have billion dollar deficits michael cobb and won raise taxes the middle university illinois class pay for programs champaign urbana bill clinton debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody can explain everything anybody chesterton best regards adam john cooper verily often have laughed the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had claws
alt.atheism	societally acceptable behavior article news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes guess delving into religious language area what exactly morality morals hope there not one with subject like this you just have spiral what would then morality morality morals labels don make arguments one really needs solid measuring stick which most actions can interpreted even though this would hardly seem moral for example the best thing for ensure that will eat and drink enough hence all actions must weighed against this one statement whatever helps this goal moral whatever does not immoral course this leads such blank space there are many different ways fulfill goal one would need hyper morality apply just the methods never thought eating meat moral immoral but think could how differentiate between not doing something because personal choice preference and not doing something because see immoral fall what the basis these morals are seems only consider something moral immoral stop think about long enough the other hand maybe our first gut reaction which who knows perhaps here have way discriminate morals don instinctively thing vegetarianism right the same way instinctively feel torture wrong but thought about long enough and listened the arguments could perhaps reason that was wrong that possible see the difference also consensus positions fall might makes right you brought out whatever right what societally mandated then whoever control the time makes what right mac michael cobb and won raise taxes the middle university illinois class pay for programs champaign urbana bill clinton debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody can explain everything anybody chesterton best regards adam adam john cooper verily often have laughed the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had claws
alt.atheism	societal basis for morality article sad news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes apr cnsvax uwec edu nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye writes reply cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb morals come from what societally accepted why follow that what right have expect others follow our notion societally mandated morality pardon the extremism but couldn murder your brother and say that was exercising rights saw them was doing what felt good didn want anyone forcing their morality don follow your morality believe that morality subjective each person entitled his own moral attitudes mine are not priori more correct than someone elses this does not mean however that must judge another the basis his rather than moral standards while entitled believe what his own moral sense tells him the rest society entitled pass laws spelling out punishments for behavior that offensive the majority why how might makes right how can they force their morality why can what want who are they decide what disagree well agree with you the sense that they have moral right inflict these rules but there one thing might add the very least almost everybody wants avoid pain and that means sacrificing some stuff for herd morality then most criminals not see their behavior moral the may realize that immoral and not care they are thus not following their own moral system but being immoral good point but being immoral our opinion don let them choose make the decision that their actions are wrong for them right and since they grew and learned around they have some idea our right and wrong which think must part incorporated very rarely you see criminal behaviour for philosophical reasons for someone lay claim alternative moral system must sincere his belief and must internally consistent some sociopaths lack innate moral sense admit lean toward the idea innate moral sense but have little basis for yet how far can such concept extended stuff deleted you mean that could say would wrong for such thing but not him after all was behaving morally his own eyes and doing what chose what basis condemn other societies besides here the buzz words the idea that there are some actions wrong for all humans all societies holding that morality subjective does not mean that must excuse the murderer why not have objective suddenly david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire this patently absurd but whoever wishes become philosopher must learn not frightened absurdities bertrand russell mac michael cobb and won raise taxes the middle university illinois class pay for programs champaign urbana bill clinton debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody can explain everything anybody chesterton best regards adam adam john cooper verily often have laughed the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had claws
alt.atheism	you will all hell article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy writes you should wear your nicest boxer shorts and bring plenty spf sunscreen grab bathing suit towerl and some veggie hotdogs and can have bonfire cookout does that sound good enough you dean every poster invited there room for nudists after all you believe most upstanding moral churches nudity sin sole intention was learning fly
alt.atheism	free moral agency article minster york cjhs minster york writes are you saying that their was physical adam and eve and that all humans are direct decendents only these two human beings then who were cain and able wives couldn their sisters because didn have daughters were they non humans genesis and the days adam after begat seth were eight hundred years and begat sons and daughters felicitations chris stuart still incestuous adam what happened sig cooper
alt.atheism	test ignore test adam john cooper verily often have laughed the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had claws understand one another fear beyond your comprehension gandalf
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and anarchists article timmbake mcl timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes mccullou whipple wisc edu writes the line about atheists haveing something their sleeves what seemed imply that sorry been reading too much the clipper project lately and the paranoia over there may have seeped some what the clipper project btw the clipper initiative announcement clinton that all the secure voice phones will use the same crypto chip facto government standard problem the government admitting that they hold the keys break the code easily and the justice department will using the keys listen illegal activities many people are really scared about such initiative because major step towards outlawing real crypto protection things like email you read the press release the project was developed nsa and given nist uses two keys and that the government claims are needed break the code they claim that these keys will handed two different companies and when they get warrant wiretap the chip nicknamed the wiretap chip they have get the keys from both companies people have poked holes through and through the press release official version and shown how nowhere near nice sounds and have given the simplified version people over sci crypt are really scared about this proposal seems mccullou whipple wisc edu never program and drink beer the same time doesn work
alt.atheism	the pope jewish date tue apr gmt from bruce rakes bruce cortex dixie com mcgoy unicorn acs ttu edu david mcgaughey writes always thought that the pope was bear you know because that little saying does bear shit the woods the pope catholic there must some connection between those two lines and always heard the bear catholic does the pope nevermind bruce rakes software systems manager elekta instruments inc executive park suite atlanta voice fax email bruce elekta com anyone from alabama knows should the bear catholic does pope shit the woods the pope may not bear but the bear god paul bear bryant football coach god university alabama
alt.atheism	faith and dogma tgk toronto edu todd kelley writes light what happened waco need get something chest faith and dogma are dangerous religion inherently encourages the implementation faith and dogma and for that reason scorn religion don necessarily disagree with your assertion but disagree with your reasoning faith bad dogma bad religion faith dogma religion bad bad religion bad unfortunately you never state why faith and dogma are dangerous you believe faith and dogma are dangerous because what happened waco you are missing the point the branch davidians made the mistake confusing the message with the messenger they believed koresh was prophet and therefore believed everything said the problem wasn the religion was the followers they didn die because faith and dogma they died because their zealotry the case the children the zealotry their parents have expressed this notion the past some christians debated with whether christianity leaves any room for reasoning claimed rationality quelled out christianity faith and dogma christians are totally irrational irrational with respect their religion only what are you saying one belief christian god does not make one totally irrational think know what you were getting but rather hear you expand the subject philosopher cannot christian because philosopher can change his mind whereas christian cannot due the nature faith and dogma present any religion again this statement too general christian perfectly capable being philosopher and absolutely capable changing his her mind faith god belief and all beliefs may change would you assert that atheists would make poor philosophers because they are predisposed not believe god which course may show unfair bias when studying say religion claimed that christian philosopher not christian but person whose beliefs the moment correspond with those christianity consider that person visiting guarding prison not prisoner unless you define prisoner simply someone prison can define prisoner someone who the moment prison can define christian someone who the moment has christian beliefs because person free not prisoner similarly person not constrained faith and dogma not christian christianity prison ever heard parole you have read far too much into this subject christian one who follows the religion based the teachings man named jesus christ nowhere does this definition imply that one cannot change one mind prison however you can just decide leave one voluntary the other not the two are not compatible religion like the gun that doesn kill anybody religion encourages faith and dogma and although doesn directly condemn people encourages the use just because thinking just because thinking that kills people prefer think religion water pistol filled with urine seriously though some but certainly not all religions condemn groups people the common target the infidel curious being who alternately atheist non insert specific religious affiliation here person different race egyptian please explain how just because thinking kills people and please state more your answer than waco course not all humans are capable thought and still have genocide and maybe even some mass suicide but not much willing bet that see your conscientious peacenik and raise you religious zealot with bad acne the way wasn aware mass suicide was problem waco and jonestown were isolated incidents mass suicides are far from common kevin marshall computer science department virginia tech marshall csugrad edu blacksburg virginia
alt.atheism	church satan was islamic authority sic over women david rice ofa fidonet org writes who marshall csugrad edu kevin marshall what csugrad edu yeah hilarious satanists believe satan god but not the only god satan part christian mythology therefore one cannot reasonably worship satan without acknowledging the existence christian god satanists see satan their master and they see god and satan adversaries similar power satanists believe the eventual overthrow god and transfer all power their master kevin marshall great many satanists not believe satan some some don far assert that most orthodox satanists not worship satan church satan etc but rather worship self hear lavey say only idiots and fools believe satan and allah knew that suckers are born every minute maximus anton lavey interpretation satanism has always puzzled read his satanic bible few years ago for social studies project well book arthur lyons called the cult devil worship america the latter included very interesting interview with the black pope which did indeed say that satan was merely instrument for one realize the self when refer satanism referring the mishmash rural satanic ritualism and witchcraft which existed before the church satan don consider lavey church all orthodox nor consider its followers satanists lavey combined the philosophies nietzsche crowley and reich slapped some religious doctrine added little touch barnum and christened his creation the church satan doubt the title was calculated attempt attract attention suppose could have just easily called the church free sex any rate worked for while its heyday the church had huge following including such hollywood celebrities sammy davis and jayne mansfield have picture lavey with sammy the way find the idea satanist not believing satan about credible christian not believing christ but you include the church satan then suppose need alter definition webster dictionary and the american heritage dictionary will have the same kevin marshall computer science department virginia tech marshall csugrad edu blacksburg virginia
alt.atheism	who has read rushdie the satanic verses article edm apr gocart twisto compaq com edm twisto compaq com mccreary writes while the topic books has anyone else noticed that paine the age reason hard find been wanting pick copy for while but not bad enough mail order noticed though that none the bookstores seem carry thought this was supposed classic what the deal too our local used book store the second largest the west coast and couldn find copy there guess atheists hold their bibles much esteem the theists bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	islamic genocide article horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes article qkovl fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes false dichotomy you claimed the killing were not religiously motivated and saying that wrong not saying that each and every killing religiously motivate spelled out detail which killings you say are religously motivated for example would claim that the recent assassination four catholic construction workers who had connection with the ira was probably religously motivated the time writing think that someone who claims the current violence motivated religion reaching what would you call when someone writes the killings are not religously motivated now possible argue that religion the past major contributing factor the violence the present but don know any evidence that this and not enough historian debate given that the avowed aim the ira take northern ireland into country that has particular church written into its constitution and which has restriction civil rights dictated that church fail see why the word past appropriate but claim that the killings are not religously motivated grotesque all that means that the church and believers are doing what they always with history they can face they rewrite you attacking different claim claim that when ira terrorist plants bomb warrington does not have motive the greater glory god sorry frank but what put quotes your own words from your posting horus mchp sni don tell now that different claim you can longer stand behind your original claim just say mean the same thing when say the killings are not religously motivated when say when terrorist plants bomb doesn have religious motive the example meant clarify not new claim the different claim which refer the claim which you were seemingly attacking the previous post namely that religion not major historical cause the present violence don assert that nor assert its opposite you don have hand bunch double talk about what was seemingly attacking quoted what was attacking jon
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes jkj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes understanding that blasphemy laws yes they exist the although they are little used apply only anglican christianity how does this fit with your claim that there state religion the why don you ask the approx two million british muslims who break five times day and have never ever been prosecuted under then ask how easy hold christian church service saudi arabia jon
alt.atheism	who has read rushdie the satanic verses article innknk bozo dsinc com perry dsinc com jim perry writes anyway since seem the only one following this particular line discussion wonder how many the rest the readership have read this book what are your thoughts read when first came out and the controversy broke put name the waiting list the library that way the book was really offensive none money would find its way the author publisher and read cover cover use phrase that seems popular here right now and liked the writing style was little hard get used but was well worth the effort coming from similar background rushdie grew bombay muslim family and moved england grew new delhi made strong impression and used many the strange constructions indian english the yaar the end sentence butbutbut the occasional hindi phrase etc the time still sorta kinda thought myself muslim and couldn see what the flap was all about seemed clear that this was allegory was clear that described some local prostitutes who took the names and personae muhammed wives and had not grandfather thundered implied that muhammed wives were prostitutes short every angry muslim that had read even part the book seemed have missed the point completely and won mention the fact that the most militant them had never even seen the book oops just did perhaps deep sense the book insulting islam because exposes the silliness revealed religion why does omnipotent deity need agent she can come directly can she how know that muhammed didn just out into the desert and smoke something and how know that the scribes dictated the quran didn screw put their own little verses and why can muhammed marry more than four women when other muslim allowed although think the biggest insult islam that the majority its followers would want suppress book sight unseen the say some holy guy not mention murder the author over the years when have made this point various primarily muslim posters have responded saying that yes indeed they have read the book and had called such things filth and lies would rank rushdie book with hitler mein kempf worse and had much the same response when tried talk about the book really silly argument after all how many these same people have read mein kampf just made wonder what are they afraid why don they just read the book and decide for themselves maybe the reaction the muslim community the book and the absence protest from the liberal muslims khomeini fatwa outrage was the final push needed into atheism shamim mohamed uunet noao cmcl arizona shamim shamim arizona edu take this cross and garlic here mezuzah jewish page the koran muslim and zen buddhist you your own member the league for programming freedom write lpf uunet net
alt.atheism	the universe and black holes was years article apr iastate edu iastate edu warren vonroeschlaub wrote let say that drop marble into the black hole races ever faster towards the even horizon but thanks the curving space caused the excessive gravity the object approaches the event horizon has further travel integrating the curve gives time reach the event horizon infinity the math says that nothing can enter black hole not true only observer rest infinite distance from the black hole will see the particle take infinite time reach the horizon the particle own reference frame takes very finite time reach the horizon and the singularity the math does indeed predict this take look mitchner thorne and wheeler gravitation peter walker don forget sing they say there heaven for those who will wait some say better but say ain rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints the sinners are much more fun only the good die young
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes article qla afp fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes hope islamic bank something other than bcci which ripped off many small depositors among the muslim community the and elsewhere grow childish propagandist bbci was example islamically owned and operated bank what will someone bet they weren real islamic owners and operators islamic bank bank which operates according the rules islam regard banking this done explicitly the bank this was not the case with bcci now you are saying that islamic bank something other than bcci would you care explain why was that when said hope islamic bank something other than bcci you called childish propagandist jon
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes the difference understand that when one invests one shares the risk the venture whereas when bank lends money while charging interest the bank takes little risk the entire business bank the management risk that what bank for that what people who work for banks something like that anyway financial stuff ain thing but that case why are you posting about what hear you saying don understand this stuff but islam says jon
alt.atheism	cruel was political atheists article qnpe inn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes they spent quite bit time the wording the constitution realise that this widely held belief america but fact the clause cruel and unusual punishments like lot the rest was lifted from the english bill rights just because the wording elsewhere does not mean they didn spend much time the wording the part the posting you have helpfully deleted pointed out that they used the wording from the english bill rights apparently changing what they understood and asked why then should two hundred years later bound what keith allan schneider thinks they understood have already looked the dictionary define the word isn this sufficient since the dictionary said that lack mercy intent inflict injury grief counted cruel sure people can described cruel this way but punishments cannot one cannot say cruel fate your prevarications are getting increasingly unconvincing think jon
alt.atheism	cruel was political atheists article apr bmerh bnr dgraham bmers bnr douglas graham writes article qnedm fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article mdinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes they spent quite bit time the wording the constitution realise that this widely held belief america but fact the clause cruel and unusual punishments like lot the rest was lifted from the english bill rights according jerry mander the absence the sacred good book btw the great binding law the iroquois confederacy also played significant role model for the constitution furthermore apparently marx and engels were strongly influenced study iroquois society using the prime example successful classless egalitarian noncoercive society mander goes say that both the and the would well study the original document figure out where each went wrong and try get right next time that fascinating heard that the chinese rather than the italians invented pasta jon
alt.atheism	political atheists article qnp inn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes perhaps the chimps that failed evolve cooperative behaviour died out and are left with the ones that did evolve such behaviour entirely chance that the entire point that the point evolution not the point natural morality unless course have suggested several times already natural morality just renaming are you going proclaim natural morality every time organism evolves cooperative behaviour yes natural morality morality that developed naturally but your yes actually stronger than this you are agreeing that every time organism evolves cooperative behaviour you are going call natural morality what about the natural morality bee dance huh bee dance naturally developed piece cooperative behaviour jon
alt.atheism	political atheists article apr daffy wisc edu mccullou snake wisc edu mark mccullough writes article afp fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article ajinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes well chimps must have some system they live social groups they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior the verb must was warned about that one back kindergarten why must they have such laws jon hey must verb some languages just happens only modifier english but the verb the sentence have this modified must know that must verb some languages complaining about the assertion containing the word must jon
alt.atheism	little too satanic article mimsy umd edu mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes jon livesey writes what said was that people took time copy the text correctly translations present completely different issues why read the papers that the qumram texts had different versions some texts did misunderstand reading newspapers learn about this kind stuff not the best idea the world newspaper reporters are notoriously ignorant the subject religion and are prone exaggeration the interests having real story that bigger headline let back this point have the masoretic text the various targums translations commentaries aramaic etc and the septuagint the ancient greek translation the masoretic text the standard jewish text and essentially does not vary some places has obvious corruptions all which are copied faithfully from copy copy these passages the past were interpreted reference the targums and the septuagint when they took the time copy the text correctly that includes obvious corruptions now the septuagint differs from the masoretic text two particulars first includes additional texts and second some passages there are variant readings from the masoretic text addition fixing predating the various corrupted passages must emphasized that the best knowledge these variations are only signifcant bible scholars and have little theological import when they took the time copy the text correctly that does not exclude variant readings from the masoretic text which are little theological import the dead sea scroll materials add this ancient copy almost all isaiah and fragments various sizes almost all other books there also abundance other material but far know there sign there any hebrew antecdent the apocrypha the extra texts the septuagint far analysis has proceeded there are also variations between the dss texts and the masoretic versions these tend reflect the septuagint where the latter isn obviously error again though the differences thus far are not significant theologically there this big expectation that there are great theological surprises lurking the material but far this hasn happened the dss are important because there almost textual tradition the unlike for the hey you the expert jon
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics article ofp vpdinppwh andrew cmu edu nanci ann miller andrew cmu edu writes timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes there lies the hypocrisy dude atheism takes much faith theism admit besides not believing god means one doesn have deal with all the extra baggage that comes with this leaves person feeling wonderfully free especially after beaten over the head with for years agree that religion and belief often important psychological healer for many people and for that reason think important however trying force psychological fantasy don mean that bad way but that what really someone else who isn interested extremely rude what still believed santa claus and said that should noted that belief god itself more behavoral imperative than lack belief religion which causes the harm not the belief god dan
alt.atheism	faith and dogma article eov aurora engr latech edu ray engr latech edu bill ray writes todd kelley tgk toronto edu wrote faith and dogma are dangerous faith and dogma are inevitable christians merely understand and admit the fact give your proof that god exists that does whichever position you take you are forced faith does good say you take position for show interest the existence god assume does not exist stuff deleted many posters have said many posts lately this just not true for show interest the existence god takes faith all you make the presumption that the knowledge the possibility something enough require faith render that possibilty interest very different thing say that you don believe something than say that you don have sufficent reason believe something even interesting think about not either sometimes just something else more interesting that occupies your mind agree that faith and dogma are inevitable but not necessarily applied god and religion takes both faith and dogma expect the sun come every morning but there overwhelming reason every single day day and day out for everyone put his faith and dogma there not with the christian religion jim halat halat bear com bear stearns whatever doesn kill you will only serve annoy you nyc speak only for myself
alt.atheism	christian morality article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com dan schaertel wrote article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes yet still not believer god not concerned with disposition why beneath him provide with the evidence would require believe the evidence that personality given this god would find compelling the fact god could cause you believe anything wants you but think about for minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you because they wanted love you wouldn punish him with eternal torture didn love but then decent chap seems your god isn the responsibility you love god and take step toward him promises there for you but you have look for yourself looked and wasn another promise broken those who doubt this dispute have not givin sincere effort lying bastard how you know what effort have and have not given simple logic arguments are folly you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools those who tried trick him with logic our ability reason just spec creation yet some think the ultimate you rely simply your reason then you will never know more than you now learn you must accept that which you don know can anyone eaplain what just said here peter don forget sing they say there heaven for those who will wait some say better but say ain rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints the sinners are much more fun only the good die young
alt.atheism	you will all hell article cbnewsj att com decay cbnewsj att com dean kaflowitz wrote article portal videocart com dfuller portal videocart com dave fuller writes jsn psuvm psu edu writes you blashephemers you will all hell for not believing god prepared for your eternal damnation what you mean prepared surrounded thumpers like yourself has proven hellish enough and not even dead yet well here how prepared got one those big beach umbrellas some those gel pack ice things big coleman cooler which loaded with miller draft like miller draft sue new pair new balance sneakers sony watchman and couple cartons bonton cheddar cheese popcorn haven decided what wear yet what does one wear eternal damnation dean kaflowitz dress casual only heaven there dress code black tie and self important expression don forget sing they say there heaven for those who will wait some say better but say ain rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints the sinners are much more fun only the good die young
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes jkj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes some here alt atheism think that condemning the actions some those who call themselves muslims they are condemning islam you read minds rice you know what posters think now not just what they write for myself only have what people are posting here and that what commenting think you may have misunderstood mean that one does not really criticize islam necessarily bringing khomeini etc into the argument for whether not following islam has determined examining his actions against islamic teachings islamic teachings are contained the qur and hadiths reported sayings and doings the prophet that funny thought you were making statement about what people think fact see quoted there jon
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes the way jon found reference claim that the percentage the population that suffers from depression has been increasing this century you requested will start new heading thread post under cool then can discuss the increase radio and use the increase the use fossil fuels the increase air travel and consumption processed bread and you can instruct which them causes increased depression jon
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism article qugin horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes article qkogg fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes and that area what you care about whether someone sceptical critical and autonomous the one hand gullible excitable and easily led the other indeed may and one may atheist and also gullible excitable and easily led would say that tendency worship tyrants and ideologies indicates that person easily led whether they have worship belief supernatural hero rather than earthly one seems beside the point sure but whether not they are atheists what are discussing not whether they are easily led not you show that these hypothetical atheists are gullible excitable and easily led from some concrete cause that case would also have discuss that concrete cause rather than atheism was the factor that caused their subsequent behaviour jon
alt.atheism	faith and dogma marshall csugrad edu kevin marshall eba hsq csugrad edu wrote don necessarily disagree with your assertion but disagree with your reasoning faith bad dogma bad religion faith dogma religion bad bad religion bad unfortunately you never state why faith and dogma are dangerous faith and dogma are dangerous because they cause people act faith alone which its nature without justification that what mean the word faith belief without justification belief with arbitrary justification with emotional irrational justification for example when someone says that god exists that they don know why they believe god exists they can just feel that faith dogma bad because precludes positive change belief based new information increased mental faculty christians are totally irrational irrational with respect their religion only what are you saying one belief christian god does not make one totally irrational think know what you were getting but rather hear you expand the subject faith and dogma are irrational the faith and dogma part any religion are responsible for the irrationality the individuals claim that faith and dogma are the quintessential part any religion that makes the much overused this context buddism philosophy rather than religion can live with that science not religion because there faith nor dogma philosopher cannot christian because philosopher can change his mind whereas christian cannot due the nature faith and dogma present any religion again this statement too general christian perfectly capable being philosopher and absolutely capable changing his her mind faith god belief and all beliefs may change would you assert that atheists would make poor philosophers because they are predisposed not believe god which course may show unfair bias when studying say religion have you noticed that philosophers tend atheists philosopher not atheist tends called theologian christian tends consider christianity sacred christianity special set beliefs sanctioned god himself and therefore conceive changing those beliefs question the existence that being who makes mistakes faith comes into play dogma comes into play the lord works mysterious ways example faith being used reconcile evidence that the beliefs are flawed sure interpretations what god said are changed satisfy the needs society but when god says something that was said and that that since god said unflawed even the interpretations are flawed science would practiced atheists contrast has built defence against faith and dogma scientist holds sacred the idea that beliefs should change suit whatever the best information available the time and and and scientist understands that any current beliefs are deficient some way the goal keep improving the beliefs the goal keep changing the beliefs reflect the best information currently available that the only rational thing that good philosophy can you see the difference science views beliefs being flawed and new information can obtained improve them how many scientists would claim have complete and perfect understanding everything none would put them out job religion views its beliefs being perfect and the interpretations those beliefs must changed new information acquired which conflicts with them please explain how just because thinking kills people and please state more your answer than waco easier for someone kill person when doesn require good rational justification the killing don consider jewish was born jewish parents this document says jewish good rational justification the way wasn aware mass suicide was problem waco and jonestown were isolated incidents mass suicides are far from common clinton and the fbi would love for you convince them this would save the taxpayer lot money you could todd
alt.atheism	faith and dogma eov aurora engr latech edu ray engr latech edu bill ray wrote faith and dogma are inevitable christians merely understand and admit the fact give your proof that god exists that does whichever position you take you are forced faith does good say you take position for show interest the existence god assume does not exist consider special relativity hasn proved nor has been disproved one has proof one way the other but many people are interested satisfied myself that nothing could indicate absolutely the existence god one way the other the two possibilities are supernaturalism and naturalism course set circumstances can inconsistent with supernaturalism but similarly set circumstances can inconsistent with naturalism naturalism any phenomenon that could described god considered part the natural world studied any other natural phenomenon gravity for instance for example loud godlike voice vociferously announced god exist and will prove reversing the force gravity and then gravity did indeed reverse naturalist probably scientist would say boy sure didn understand gravity well thought did and that loud voice something new perhaps didn understand thunder well thought did either contend that proper implementation the christian faith requires reasoning but that reasoning cannot used throw out things you don like find uncomfortable hedonistic sexual behavior condemned the bible and act true reason will make any less condemned hatred murder gossip all these are condemned there god ordained murder the bible you bet and god ever orders kill you will but will first use the gideon like behavior verifying that god actually ordered the hit and will probably discuss abram like fashion sure glad you don know where live since you don seem realize impossible for you distinguish between voices your head and god voice can hear you now this how jim jones and david koresh justify their behavior delusional religious cults bear the same relationship christianity that rape bears consentual sex form but substance when the southern baptist church the methodist church begin this then you have reason blame mainstream religion for the behaviors these people should associate every negative behavior witness any non christian with you you seem have missed point even jim jones and david koresh were not religious people point remains that faith and dogma are dangerous and religion encourages them jim jones and david koresh also encouraged them point does not rely jim jones and david koresh being religious todd
alt.atheism	faith and dogma article eov aurora engr latech edu ray engr latech edu bill ray writes todd kelley tgk toronto edu wrote faith and dogma are dangerous faith and dogma are inevitable christians merely understand and admit the fact give your proof that god exists that does whichever position you take you are forced faith does good say you take position for show interest the existence god assume does not exist absolutely not true without religion either established one one you invent for yourself the theist and atheist are equally not interested god because without religious revelation there information about god available strip away the dogma and the theists atheists are different simply holding different opinion matter little practical importance contend that proper implementation the christian faith requires reasoning but that reasoning cannot used throw out things you don like find uncomfortable hedonistic sexual behavior condemned the bible and act true reason will make any less condemned hatred murder gossip all these are condemned there god ordained murder the bible you bet and god ever orders kill you will but will first use the gideon like behavior verifying that god actually ordered the hit and will probably discuss abram like fashion sorry but that doesn help what test will you apply decide whether god satan with whom you are speaking how will you know that you have not simply gone insane having delusions you are like loaded gun can hear you now this how jim jones and david koresh justify their behavior delusional religious cults bear the same relationship you not stupid assumed when the southern baptist church the methodist church begin this then you have reason blame mainstream religion for the behaviors these people should associate every negative behavior witness any non christian with you yes all this together each human making small part the definition humanity dan
alt.atheism	thoughts christians article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine wrote article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes know you can get any physical problems passive christianity unlike smoking not that hard avoid christianity today anyway just ignore right keith err kent whadda you mean you didn see the smiley ouch guess didn sorry but comment was just more irony into the fire cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	who has read rushdie the satanic verses article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine wrote article edm apr gocart twisto compaq com edm twisto compaq com mccreary writes while the topic books has anyone else noticed that paine the age reason hard find been wanting pick copy for while but not bad enough mail order noticed though that none the bookstores seem carry thought this was supposed classic what the deal too our local used book store the second largest the west coast and couldn find copy there guess atheists hold their bibles much esteem the theists remember correctly prometheus books have this one stock just call them and ask for the book cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	age reason was who has read rushdie this the story kent the archetype finn that lives the bay area and tried purchase thomas paine age reason this man was driving around staceys books inc well cleanlighted place daltons various other places when asked for this book the well educated american book store assistants most placed asked him check out the thriller section then they said that his book has not been published yet but they should receive the book soon some places the assistants bluntly said that they don know such author that not well known living author they don keep copies his books such the life and times america years after the revolution cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	some thoughts article rekj darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes james felder spbach lerc nasa gov wrote logic alert argument from incredulity just because hard for you believe this doesn mean that isn true liars can very pursuasive just look koresh that you yourself cite this whole basis great many here rejecting the christian account things the words madalyn murrey hair face folks just silly why okay disbelieve because your incredulity you admit that fallacy isn and wasn aware that this hair chick was reader that doesn support your assertion that the argument the whole basis great many here rejecting dan
alt.atheism	thoughts christians article rgkb darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com wrote the social pressure indeed very important factor for the majority passive christians our world today the case early christianity the promise heavenly afterlife independent your social status was also very promising gift reason slaves and non romans accepted the religion very rapidly this hypothetical proposition you should say fact you should cite your sources all this the amateur sociologist sub branch however would suffice alert the unwary that you are just screwing around what would you accept sources this very thing has been written lots books you could start with erich fromm the dogma christ doug graham dgraham bnr opinions are own
alt.atheism	cruel was political atheists article fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article apr bmerh bnr dgraham bmers bnr douglas graham writes according jerry mander the absence the sacred good book btw the great binding law the iroquois confederacy also played significant role model for the constitution furthermore apparently marx and engels were strongly influenced study iroquois society using the prime example successful classless egalitarian noncoercive society mander goes say that both the and the would well study the original document figure out where each went wrong and try get right next time that fascinating heard that the chinese rather than the italians invented pasta that fascinating take that you expressing skepticism the idea that those ignorant savages could have influenced the constitution the people who stole their continent you could right but sounds plausible there any reason that you dismiss out hand here some more recent scholarship has shown that the mid indians were not only invited participate the deliberations our founding fathers but that the great binding law the iroquois confederacy arguably became the single most important model for the albany plan union and later the articles confederation and the constitution that this would absent from our school texts and from history and from media not surprising given the devotion americans feel our founding myth great men gathered express new vision that has withstood the test time were revealed that indians had role imagine the blow the american psyche when most these men and others gathered creat the albany plan union the first try confederation they invited forty two members the iroquois grand council serve advisors confederate structures benjamin franklin freely acknowledged his interest the iroquois achievement famous speech albany congress would strange thing six nations ignorant savages sic should capable forming such union and able execute such manner that has subsisted for ages and appears indissoluble and yet that like union should impractical for ten dozen english colonies according grinde franklin convened meetings iroquois chiefs and congressional delegates order hammer out plan that acknowedged similar the iroquois confederacy grinde professor donald grinde the university california riverside whose book the iroquois and the founding fathers the american nation addresses this issue doug graham dgraham bnr opinions are own
alt.atheism	studies book mormon date tue apr gmt from carolyn jean fairman cfairman leland stanford edu agrino enkidu mic andres grino brandt asks about mormons there are some mention about events places historical persons later discovered archeologist one the more amusing things the bom claim that civilization existed north america aroun where the mystical plates were found not only did use steel and other metals but had lots wars very one has ever found any metal swords and traces civilization other than the native americans this just one example from free inquiry winter the following introduction the article joseph smith and the book mormon george smith the introduction written paul kurtz mormonism the church jesus christ latter day saints claims worldwide membership million one the world fastest growing religions with many new converst alone because the church aggressive missionary program covering more than one hundred countries spreading even third world countries mormonism both puritanical moral outlook and evangelical preachment the church run along strict authoritarian lines led president who allegedly receives revelations directly form god and group twelve apostles who attempt maintain orthodoxy belief and practice the church opposed abortion pornography sexual freedom women rights and other its view immoral influences secular society and forbids the use tobacco alcohol coffee and tea centered salt lake city the church extremely wealthy and politically powerful utal and many other western states among well know present day mormons are ezra taft benson former secretary agriculture the osmond family the mariotts the hotel empire and score high placed government officials the mormon church was founded western new york joseph smith who claimed that divine revelation had found gold plates containing hieroglyphics buried hill and that with the help visits from the angel moroni had been able translate the writing into the book mormon the basis mormon belief this book written the commandment god claims that the ancient hebrews settled america about and were the ancestors the american indians mormons believe that those who have been baptized the true church will reunited after death and that deceased non mormon family members can baptized proxy and thus join their relatives the hereafter because these beliefs mormons have been considered outcasts mainline christian denominations and heretics religious fundamentalists joseph smith was controversial figure his day was both worshiped saint and denounced fraud because persecution led his band loyal followers from palmyra new york westward ohio and then illinois where was shot death agry mob brigham young who reportedly had many eighty wives took over the leadership the church and led the mormons further westward found the new zion salt lake city following the teachings joseph smith the practice polygamy was perhaps the mormons most controversial practice nineteenth century america while other religions back many centuries muhammadanism years christianity and judaism and attempts examine their beginnings are difficult extensive historical investigation mormon roots possible some mormons are willing examine this history objectively others maintain that such scrutiny dangerous the faith the following pages free inquiry presents two articles about the mormon church first george smith lifelong member the church provides detailed critical examination joseph smith and his claim the the book mormon was divinely revealed second present portion interview with philosopher sterling mcmurrin also mormon since birth who questions the treatment the history the church mormon authorities paul kurtz the article itself super jimtims psilink com
alt.atheism	christian morality article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes simple logic arguments are folly you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools those who tried trick him with logic why don you cite the passages that can focus some discuss then following jesus you can make fools and our logic you rely simply your reason then you will never know more than you now indeed you can justifiably make this assertion you must genius logic and making fools should that much easier qpliu princeton edu standard opinion opinions are delta correlated
alt.atheism	logic jesus dps nasa kodak com pontificated simple logic arguments are folly you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools those who tried trick him with logic can you cite example this please post answer don want receive mail james green jgreen oboe calpoly edu all times and all nations the priest has been hostile liberty thomas jefferson
alt.atheism	islamic authority over women kmr cwru edu keith ryan pontificated how many moslem men does take rape woman five one commit the act and four witness the penetration guilty verdict can rendered only there confession there are least two male witnesses the crime adultery and rape are proved only four witnesses have seen the actual penetration occurrence that presumably does not happen often this from the quran however spelled james green jgreen oboe calpoly edu all times and all nations the priest has been hostile liberty thomas jefferson
alt.atheism	help you god court heard that california they ask you swear without any mention god what states actually include god the courtroom oath james green jgreen oboe calpoly edu all times and all nations the priest has been hostile liberty thomas jefferson
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality article apr abo mandtbacka finabo abo mats andtbacka writes fpv horus mchp sni frank uucp writes article apr abo mandtbacka finabo abo mats andtbacka writes that old chestnut your claim that moral objectivism scientific objectivism don agree with now try proving through some objective moral test that disagreeing incorrect your claim which you have deleted now was not universal not objective deleted now the interest brevity back step and you see was still your post yes that was claim you can refute then please firstly apology you hadn deleted your claim and was mistaken saying you had sorry for any offence caused secondly how can refute your definition can only point its logical implications and say that they seem contradict the usage the word objective other areas indeed your definition objective oxymoron for all have quibble with that belief other than that useless and that objective perfectly good word what objective not the age the universe anyway show above how many ages can the universe have and still internally self consistent amazed was more than one how many different moral systems can different members society have indeed single individuals some cases and humanity still stick together begging the question people can have many opinions about the age the universe and humanity can still stick together you are saying that the universe has real age independent beliefs about why the age the universe like most scientific facts can emirically verified through means that give the same result matter who performs the testing albeit there are error bars that may the largish side this assumes that the universe has real age any kind reality which doesn depend what think why should extreme biblical creationist give rat ass about the means which you speak heard way verify morality consistent way much less compute the errors the measurement care enlighten the same true pain but painkillers exist and can predicted work with some accuracy better than random guess wrote elsewhere that morality should hypotheses about observed value moral system makes prediction will better that can tested and falsifiable the same way prediction this drug will relieve pain people ideas about the age object are not objective you can have any idea you like and can stop you universae and their ages another ballgame they are what they are and you dislike some detail them that problem with your opinion them sure assume objective reality and you get statements like this claim that morality opinion ours and such subjective and individual wrong then some more less objectively real thing exists which you label objective morality can you back this positive claim existence can you back your positive claim above that because assumption make the same assumption about values the basis that there logical difference between the two and the empirical basis the two precisely the same point morals are essence personal opinions usually ideally well founded motivated such but nonetheless personal the fact that real large lot people agree some moral question sometimes even for the same reason does not make morals objective makes humans somewhat alike their opinions that moral question which can good for the evolution social species and real large lot nice phrase people agree that there football desk supposed see logical difference between the two perhaps you can explain the difference since you seem see clearly take look the desk perform test football then accept theory else tell people they hallucinating now take look morality see anything please inform which way look and why look that particular way opposed some other get drift just look are you claiming never know what good means science whole other matter altogether says you prove that those who disagree are wrong that simple matter proving the track record the scientific method think great and should applied values may completely wrong but that what conclude result quite amount thought frank dwyer not hatching that odwyer sse from hens evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	some thoughts article reyf darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner wrote kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com wrote article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine wrote someone spank wrong but didn lord liar lunatic originate with lewis who this campollo fellow anyway think and isn there clear connection with the believe because absurd notion one the original christians origen there similar statement attributed anselm believe that may understand both cases reason somewhat less exalted than anyone posting here could accept which means that neither statement can properly analysed this venue bill think you have misunderstanding about atheism lack belief god does not directly imply lack understanding transcendental values hope you would accept the fact that for instance buddhists appreciate issues related non empirical reasoning without the need automatically believe theism think reading couple books related buddhism might revise and fine tune your understanding non christian systems cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	christian morality article pww spac rice edu pww spacsun rice edu peter simple logic arguments are folly you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools those who tried trick him with logic our ability reason just spec creation yet some think the ultimate you rely simply your reason then you will never know more than you now learn you must accept that which you don know can anyone eaplain what just said here can seems jesus used logic make people using logic look like fools that does not sound right maybe just told they were fools and that and people believed that hmm does not sound reasonable either find always very intriguing see people stating that transcendental values can explained and then the next sentence they try explain these unexplained values highly strange cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	thoughts christians article rgkb darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner wrote kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com wrote the social pressure indeed very important factor for the majority passive christians our world today the case early christianity the promise heavenly afterlife independent your social status was also very promising gift reason slaves and non romans accepted the religion very rapidly this hypothetical proposition you should say fact you should cite your sources all this the amateur sociologist sub branch however would suffice alert the unwary that you are just screwing around well remember jacoby mythmaker talks about this cite one source but not sure all christians have read this book addition social experiences from being raised and educated lutheran having lot christian friends and even have played two christian rock bands over you you have any counter claims sources rest that shows that christianity does not have the concept social promise that independent the social status cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	islamic authority over women article darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner wrote credit religion with the awesome power dominate history misunderstand human nature the function religion and course history believe that those who distort history this way know exaclty what they doing and only for affect however underestimate the power religion creating historical events also big misunderstanding for instance would the year old war have ever started there were fractions between the protestants and the vatican cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	death penalty was political atheists article rlyz darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner wrote this fascinating atheists argue for abortion defend homosexuality means population control insist that the only values are biological and condemn war and capital punishment according benedikt something contardictory cannot exist which this case means atheists suppose would like understand how atheist can object war excellent means controlling population growth capital punishment sorry but the logic escapes and why just capital punishment what being questioned here the propriety killing punishment what the basis the ecomplaint bill ever heard secular humanism please check out what this stands for and then revise your statements above cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism article fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article qugin horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes article qkogg fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes and that area what you care about whether someone sceptical critical and autonomous the one hand gullible excitable and easily led the other indeed may and one may atheist and also gullible excitable and easily led would say that tendency worship tyrants and ideologies indicates that person easily led whether they have worship belief supernatural hero rather than earthly one seems beside the point sure but whether not they are atheists what are discussing not whether they are easily led not you show that these hypothetical atheists are gullible excitable and easily led from some concrete cause that case would also have discuss that concrete cause rather than atheism was the factor that caused their subsequent behaviour not arguing that atheism causes such behaviour merely that not relevant the definition atheism which lack belief gods frank dwyer not hatching that odwyer sse from hens evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	islamic genocide article fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes article qkovl fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes false dichotomy you claimed the killing were not religiously motivated and saying that wrong not saying that each and every killing religiously motivate spelled out detail which killings you say are religously motivated for example would claim that the recent assassination four catholic construction workers who had connection with the ira was probably religously motivated the time writing think that someone who claims the current violence motivated religion reaching what would you call when someone writes the killings are not religously motivated say was motivated primitive notion revenge and misguided patriotism otherwise have wonder how come mainland catholics are not killed mainland protestants and southern catholics are not killed southern protestants and take away all plausible causes bar religion and the violence diminishes markedly gee why that now possible argue that religion the past major contributing factor the violence the present but don know any evidence that this and not enough historian debate given that the avowed aim the ira take northern ireland into country that has particular church written into its constitution and which has restriction civil rights dictated that church fail see why the word past appropriate the country also has different official language written its constitution and vice versa maybe they motivated love irish poetry your argument fallacious jon for what worth agree with all that you say about ireland above and more frank dwyer not hatching that odwyer sse from hens evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	islam and scientific predictions was genocide caused atheism article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes deletion god the one who created the night the day the sun and the moon each travelling orbit with its own motion qur the positive aspect this verse noted maurice bucaille that while geocentrism was the commonly accepted notion the time and for long time afterwards there notion geocentrism this verse anywhere the qur well that certainly different but looks there translation found for everything the way most surprised hear that night and day move orbit and that the sun travels orbit without saying that earth does too sounds geocentric benedikt
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality article inr lvi horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes deletion and real large lot nice phrase people agree that there football desk supposed see logical difference between the two perhaps you can explain the difference since you seem see clearly rest deleted that fallacy and not the first time pointed out not fallacy note the supermajority disinterested people agree fundamantal value not doing ethics yet benedikt then what the difference between that and those people agreeing trivial observation the reference not yet being ethics dubious you have used the terms absolute objective and others interchangeably same with moral values values all worth measuers and usefulness you infer from them they were the same the when the not fulfilled your intermission waste time assuming that you don intend this reasonable conclude that you want argue point you have made interesting statement here namely that the disinterested observer there such thing morals probably the shortest proof for objective and morality being contradiction for one you have never given set morals people agree upon unlike football further you conveniently ignore here that there are many who would not agree tghe morality something the analogy does not hold have however given example value people agree and explained why people will agree that their freedom valuable have also stated that such value necessary condition for doing objective ethics the assertion above and that what talking about there isn point talking about ethics this can agreed fine and that freedom valuable not generally agreed upon could name quite lot people who state the opposite not that that wasn mentioned before other words you have nothing fulfill your strong claims with one can expect sufficiently many people agree its being football while you have give the evidence that only vanishing number disagrees with set morals you have give not doing morals ethics can get past values say the only cogent objection freedom example that maybe people aren talking about the same thing when they answer that valuable maybe not and want think about this some especially the implications its being true clutching straw don believe mappings into metaphysical sets were loaded terms are fixpoints those who deny the morality freedom make quite clear what they say their practice telling yes there are even those who are willingly unfree quite common religions the way for one there religion which named submission don even try argue that submission freedom further the above evidence not proof proof would evolve out testing your theory absolute morals against competing theories garbage that not proof either were would argue case but afraid that that considered proof the above one the arguments you reiterate while you never answer the objections evidence that you are preacher name that fallacy there something universally valued moral context benedikt
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law qla afp fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes article jkj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes hope islamic bank something other than bcci which ripped off many small depositors among the muslim community the and elsewhere deletions bbci was example islamically owned and operated bank what will someone bet they weren real islamic owners and operators and yet actually turned out long running and quite ruthless operation steal money from small and often quite naive depositors islamic bank something which operates different fashion your modern bank have explained here another thread before for example islamic banks don pay fixed interests deposits but return investments which varies according the market and not fixed like interest islamic banks are relatively new phenomenon the islamic world there are islamic banks the west including the usa knowledge doubt the market for them exists there least not while islamic banks are relatively early stage their development the case now bcci most certainly not islamic bank did bcci ever pay fixed interest rate deposits the answer this question yes then bcci was not islamic bank islamic banks are specifically set not pay charge interest whether some muslims partially owned the bank whatever completely irrelevant fred rice darice yoyo monash edu
alt.atheism	death penalty gulf war long this the most unmitigated bilge seen while jim brown obviously has possession the right wing token diplomatic alternatives including sanctions were ineffective december former national security adviser zbigniew brzezinski told senate committee that sanctions were costing iraq million per day and that the multinational coalition could take all the time the world iraq suggested was losing badly every day defied the demands while the community nations won every day with taking life loss life fcnl washington newsletter the world full evil and circumstances are not perfect many innocents suffer due the wrongful actions others regretable but that the way wrongful actions murderers like leaders the government perhaps regrettable course the way certainly not the media not totally monolithic there are even conservative sources out there you know where look hurrah for rush good heavens escapee from rush limbot land conservative ass and btw the reason brought the blanket bombing germany was because you were bemoaning the iraqi civilian casualties being deplorable yet blanket bombing was instituted because bombing wasn accurate enough hit industrial military targets decisive way any other method that time but the gulf war precision bombing was the norm bullshit the gulf massacre all ordnance used was smart the rest that was just regular dumb iron bombs and stuff have you forgotten that the pentagon definition successful patriot launch was when the missile cleared the launching tube with damage that successful interception scud was defined the patriot and scud passed each other the same area the sky and the that was the smart stuff hit again try follow here that means this smart arsenal missed the stories hundreds thousands iraqi civilian dead just plain bunk prove have source that says that date the civilian death count excuse mean collateral damage about one has attempted calculate the costs execution washington state but studies elsewhere suggest costs far more than incarceration california spending more than million annually capital cases and until this year hadn executed anyone since texas the national leader the number executions spends estimated million per execution that compares average cost incarceration washington state per maximum security prisoner per year shamim mohamed uunet noao cmcl arizona shamim shamim arizona edu take this cross and garlic here mezuzah jewish page the koran muslim and zen buddhist you your own member the league for programming freedom write lpf uunet net
alt.atheism	gulf war was death penalty was political atheists article rusnews mantis mathew mathew mantis writes mccullou snake wisc edu mark mccullough writes looked back this and asked some questions various people and got the following information which had claimed and you pooh poohed the has not sold iraq any arms what about the land mines which have already been mentioned asked around one the areas you suggested yourself and presented the information got mention landmines was given other countries like kuwait information hard prove you are claiming that the sold information prove information hard prove almost certainly the did sell information then that fact classified and you can prove very neat dismiss everything say unless can prove beyond shadow doubt something which you yourself admit can never prove your satisfaction thanks stick squaring circles mathew okay you are going blindly believe things without reasonable evidence didn realize you were theist doubting claim presented without any evidence support you are able present real evidence for then great but unsupported claims even claims such and such news agency will not accepted you want stick the sheer impossible instead the merely difficult then fine the statement that such fact classified then you can prove simple matter pragmatics and the law you have access classified information that you know classified and you reveal there good chance that you someone else the person who revealed you going jail never said that you couldn prove satisfaction merely said that was difficult who said try and make things easy for people arguing with unless course they need the handicap mccullou whipple wisc edu never program and drink beer the same time doesn work
alt.atheism	gulf war and peace niks article lva fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes article apr bmerh bnr dgraham bmers bnr douglas graham writes wait minute doug know you are better informed than that the has never invaded nicaragua far know the invaded nicaragua several times this century including october andf again february haiti was occupied thanks jon had forgotten about the and invasions had ever learned them mean really forgot but read the context more recent such when the sandinistas were expecting imminent invasion from the which never happened stand corrected thanks panama invaded true twice this century the created panama the first place fomenting and then intervening civil war the then republic colombia troops landed colombia help with the uprising and then colombia was duly dismembered and replaced two countries order that the could build the panama canal the new republic panama remembered this one this one and bush invasion were the two mentioned above good teddy knew how get things done jon regards jim
alt.atheism	christian morality article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes article ousrvr oulu kempmp phoenix oulu petri pihko writes dan schaertel dps nasa kodak com wrote what does this mean learn you must accept that you don know something right but learn you must accept something don know why this not the way prefer learn unwise merely swallow everything you read suppose write book telling how the great invisible pink unicorn has helped daily problems would you accept this since you can know whether true not one asks you swallow everything fact jesus warns against but let ask you question you beleive what you learn history class for that matter anything school mean just what other people have told you and you don want swallow what others say right right there way get into sceptical heart you can not say you have given sincere effort with the attitude you seem have you must trust not just church and participate activities were you ever willing die for what you believed the branch dividians were they believed and trusted much that became impossible turn back reality what you are advocating total irreversible brainwashing dan
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism article hqd horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes article fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article qugin horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes article qkogg fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes and that area what you care about whether someone sceptical critical and autonomous the one hand gullible excitable and easily led the other indeed may and one may atheist and also gullible excitable and easily led would say that tendency worship tyrants and ideologies indicates that person easily led whether they have worship belief supernatural hero rather than earthly one seems beside the point sure but whether not they are atheists what are discussing not whether they are easily led not you show that these hypothetical atheists are gullible excitable and easily led from some concrete cause that case would also have discuss that concrete cause rather than atheism was the factor that caused their subsequent behaviour not arguing that atheism causes such behaviour merely that not relevant the definition atheism which lack belief gods throw away the faq can all just ask dwyer since can define the thing that the rest only talk about jon
alt.atheism	gulf war selling arms article rusnews mantis mathew mathew mantis writes jbrown batman bmd trw com writes mathew agree this seems the crux your whole position isn that the shouldn have supported hussein and sold him arms fight iran agree and agree ruthlessly hunting down those who did but did sell arms hussein and done deal now invades kuwait just sit back and say well sold him all those arms suppose just wants use them now too bad for kuwait unfortunately sitting back and letting things not the way correct former mistake destroying hussein military potential did was the right move but agree with your statement reagan and bush made grave error judgment sell arms hussein but still happening that the entire point only last month john major hailed great victory that had personally secured sale arms saudi arabia the same month sold jet fighters the same indonesian government that busy killing the east timorese heard about the arms sale saudi arabia now how such grave mistake sell saudi arabia weapons are you claiming that shouldn sell any weapons other countries straightforward answer please all very well say oops made boo boo better clean the mistake but the and keep making the same mistake they often that can believe not deliberate this suspicion reinforced the fact that the mistake extremely profitable one for decrepit economy reliant arms sales who benefits from arms sales hint isn normally the gov the contractor that builds that piece equipment believe not the and don export the huge quantities arms that you have just accused them doing arms exports are rare enough that requires act congress for non small arms most countries not all you believe telling everyone who can what and who can sell their goods whom mathew mccullou whipple wisc edu never program and drink beer the same time doesn work
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice wrote stuff deleted now not believe blindly following anyone matter how knowledgeable she may islamic law someone tells islam says such and such immediately say show the support for this statement from the qur and sunnah believe this islamic duty for according one hadith the prophet peace and blessings god with him your leader tells you enter fire and you and kill yourself then you have sinned for doing wrong even though you were blindly following the instructions your leader responsible for own actions not abu hanifa imam malik etc even blindly following the opinions abu hanifa etc with this mind understanding must look the reasoning behind such opinions muslims that support khomeini fatwa now understanding the hadith upon which those who support khomeini fatwa relating particular instance that occurred during war time now brother general imho ridiculous and wrong say that hadith relating the actions war usable during times peace think any sensible human being can see this personally think that the reasoning some our ulema this matter faulty for they think legitimate use acts war times peace regarding this particular subject you think wrong please feel free say with your reasoning from qur and hadith please not because somebody said want the reasoning from qur and the sahih hadiths perhaps should take our discussion soc religion islam please email rashid you think should this the way also disagree with your opinion regarding the punishment for apostasy the viewpoint follow that there general punishment for apostasy very strongly supported qur and hadith this very well shown the book punishment islamic law mohamed awa american trust publications reiterate that would agree with you that there little justification for the punishment apostasy the qur islamic history well apostasy has rarely been punished belief considered matter conscience and since there compulsion the matter belief apostates have been generally left believe not believe they will however when apostate makes attacks upon god and his messenger the situation changes now the charge apostasy may complicated with other charges perhaps charges sedition treason spying etc the person makes public issue their apostasy mounts public attacks opposed arguement against islam the situation likewise complicated the person spreads slander broadcasts falsehoods again the situation changes the punishments vary according the situation the apostate anyhow the charge aggravated apostasy would only subsidiary charge rushdie case there distinction the qur between formal war situation and being the situation where someone unilaterally wages war their actions creates disorder makes mischief etc against the muslims and creates situation that results harm muslims here small group even single individual could said engaged such practise other words there clear difference between formal war situation where two clearly defined parties wage war conclude treaties exchange prisoners etc and dealing with attacks that come from isolated individuals groups against islam the second situation the unilateral attack and the spreading fasad that would apply the case rushdie the matter rushdie not simple matter banning offensive book banning the book secondary full set circumstances following the publication the book come into play well including the deaths many muslims and rushdie and his publishers media games now not believe blindly following anyone matter how knowledgeable she may islamic law someone tells islam says such and such immediately say show the support for this statement from the qur and sunnah believe this islamic duty for according one hadith the prophet peace and blessings god with him your leader tells you enter fire and you and kill yourself then you have sinned for doing wrong even though you were blindly following the instructions your leader responsible for own actions not abu hanifa imam malik etc even blindly following the opinions abu hanifa etc now understanding the hadith upon which those who support khomeini fatwa relating particular instance that occurred during war time now brother general imho ridiculous and wrong say that hadith relating the actions war usable during times peace think any sensible human being can see this personally think that the reasoning some our ulema this matter faulty for they think legitimate use acts war times peace regarding this particular subject not sure which hadith you are referring above believe that one the qur anic verses which the fatwa based every verse the qur has corresponding circumstance revelation but way the understanding the tafsir the verse restricted solely the particular historical circumstance which was revealed this was the case then could say that all the laws and regulations that were revealed when the muslims were not involved conflict should suspended when they were war the logic does not follow complex real life situations there may many verses and many hadiths which can all related single complicated situation the internal relationships between these verses may quite complex such that arriving understanding how the verses interlock and how each applies the particular situation can quite demanding task not necessarily simple this that process there may many parameters involved there may larger context which particular situation should viewed all these matters impinge the situation other words there great deal involved deciphering the qur the qur asks reflect its verses but this reflection must entail more than simply reading verse and its corresponding hadith the reflection for the sake increasing personal piety then each person has his own level understanding and there harm that however the reflection order decide matters that pertain the state the gestation laws and rulings the gestation society the dispensing justice the guidance the community then there are certain minimum requirements understanding that one should achieve jaffar ibn muhammad sadiq relates some these requirements taught the prophet hadith who does not distinguish the book allah the abrogating verse from the abrogated one and specific one from general one and decisive from ambiguous and does not differentiate between permission and obligation and does not recognize verse meccan period from medinite one and does not know the circumstances revelation and does not understand the technical words the qur whether simple compound and does not comprehend the knowledge decree and measure and ignorant advancing and delaying its verses and does not distinguish the clear from the deep nor the manifest from the esoteric nor the beginning from the termination and unaware the question and the answer the disjoining and the joining and the exceptions and the all inclusive and ignorant adjective preceding noun that explains the subsequent one and unaware the emphasized subject and the detailed one the obligatory laws and the permissions the places the duties and rules and the meaning the lawful and the unlawful and does not know the joined words and the words that are related those coming before them after them then such man does not know the qur nor among the people the qur based these and other hadiths and accordance with many qur anic verses why should not company from every group remain behind gain profound understanding tafaqquh religion and warn people when they return them that they may beware science jurisprudence arose the requirements for person considered mujtahid one who can pronounce matters law and religion are many listed few major divisions below there are course many subdivisions within these headings knowledge arabic syntax conjugation roots semantics oratory knowledge tafsir and principles tafsir logic mantiq knowledge hadiths knowledge transmitters rijal knowledge the principles juriprudence qur sunnah consensus reasoning the study qur and sunnah for purposes law involves discussion imperatives awamir discussion negative imperatives nawahi discussion generalities and particularities aam khas discussion unconditional and conditional discussion tacit meanings discussion the abstract and the clear discussion the abrogator and the abrogated the principles application the law involves principles exemption principles precaution principles option principles mastery the jurisprudent bound through very rigorous process pronouncing judgement given situation not matter looking one verse and one hadith now one should blindly follow anyone but there difference between blind following and acceding the opinion someone who clearly more knowledgeable and more qualified than oneself there the famous hadith the prophet which says the fuqaha religious scholars are the trustees the prophet long they not concern themselves with the illicit desires pleasures and wealth this world the prophet was asked messenger god how may know they concern themselves replied seeing whether they follow the ruling power they that fear for your religion and shun them not yet know enough about the imams the four sunni madhabs comment how this hadith applies them the contemporary scholars who base themselves upon them the prophet also refered the fuqaha the fortress islam only point make clear that arriving legal judgement calls into play certain amount expertise the specifics this expertise delineated the qur and hadith those who acquire this expertise are praised both the qur and hadith those who without the requisite knowledge pronounce matters that affect society state and religion are cautioned the only reason said anything all about the rushdie affair this group because the whole basis for the discussion the fatwa that apostasy was wrong when one discusses something they should least base their discussion fact secondly khomeini was condemned heretic because supposedly claimed infallible another instance creating straw man and then beating him perhaps should take our discussion soc religion islam please email rashid you think should this agree that should move the discussion another newsgroup unfortunately not have any access email private discussion moderated group out the question cannot post moderated group like soc religion islam how about soc culture arabic talk religion misc salaam laikum
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger wrote have already made the clear claim that khomeini advocates views which are contradition with the qur and have given arguments for this this something that can checked anyone sufficiently interested khomeini being dead really can respond but another poster who supports khomeini has responded with what clearly obfuscationist sophistry this should quite clear atheists they are less susceptible religionist modes obfuscationism don mind saying this but the best example obfuscation condemn without having even your most basic facts straight you want some examples back and look your previous posts where you manage get your facts wrong about the fatwa and khomeini supposed infallibility salaam laikum
alt.atheism	consciousness part kev strikes back kevin anthoney kax nott wrote about reply diplomatic society that constantly the verge flaming usenet diplomacy the best way ensure the voice reason gets through isn realize fighting occam razor this argument try explain why feel mind necessary kevin unfortunately you are now delving into field know too little about algorithms your reasoning see very much along the lines roger penrose who claimed that mathematical insight cannot algorithmic his book the emperor new mind concerning computers minds and the laws physics however penrose claim that has mathematical insight your similar claim that wavefunctions collapse only when consciously take look could just illusions are obviouslu taking very different viewpoints try ponder the problem consciousness from evolutionary perspective realising that might not anything special but certainly useful thinking back what wrote you think worms have minds not they are able experience pain least they behave just like that yet conceivable that might some day the future perform total synthesis elegans from the elements would such worm have mind firstly not impressed with the ability algorithms they great solving problems once the method has been worked out but not working out the method itself this true some extent however not think that our brains work like computers all fact there substantial evidence skarda skarda freeman that brains work more less chaotically generating enough randomness for mental states evolve our brains work much like genetic algorithm generators suppose the trick still has there some form discovered does this mean that all the ideas will ever have are already pre programmed into our brains this somewhat unlikely given that our brains ultimately are encoded chromosomes worth genetic material much which isn used indeed this extremely unlikely given the vast impact nurture our mind and brain suggest however that before trying understand our consciousness collection algorithms kevin take look the references mentioned and think again still think the best experts the nature conscious mind are neurologists neuropsychologists and biologists but not flame for opinions since they study beings that are conscious the reason repeating advice that this discussion cannot lead anywhere our backgrounds are too different and please not bring into this discussion all not all physicists are happy with the claim that our consciousness plays some special role physics would say doesn the other problem with algorithms their instability not many algorithms survive you take out large portion their code yet people survive strokes without going completely haywire there are side effects but patients still seem remarkably stable also neurons perfectly healthy people are dying alarming rate can algorithm survive randomly corrupt various bits code again brains are not computers don forget this this does not mean they need something else work they just work differently their primary purpose perception and guidance action self awareness and high intelligence are later appearances the next problem the sticky question what colour replace colour with the sensation your choice presumably the materialist viewpoint that the product some kind chemical reaction the usual products such reaction are energy different chemicals colour mixture these you are still expecting that could find the idea green our brains somewhere perhaps the form some chemical this not how see the sensation green certain time dependent pattern the area our visual cortex and distributed with the help areas and the rest the brain indeed firing pattern have sometimes thought our consciousness global free induction pattern these local firing patterns but this just idle speculation scientific american september issue was special issue mind and brain have you already read from cover cover there are two articles visual perception you might interested but again please note that subjective experiences cannot observed from third person perspective see nothing but neuronal activity cannot conclude that this not the mind kalat writes about numerous examples where electric stimulation different areas brain have led various changes the patients state mind for instance patient whose septal area was stimulated without his knowledge remote control during psychiatric interview was quickly cured his depression and started discussing plan seduce his girlfriend stimulations the temporal lobe have sometimes led embarrassing situations when the patients have started flirting with the therapist conclusion there evidence that brains are essentially necessary for subjective experiences brain damage usually equivalent some sort mind damage conscious processes involve substantial brain activity various areas brain when think colours our visual cortex activated etc consciousness afterthought become conscious our actions with half second delay and our brains are ahead our conscious will least thus think fruitful turn the question why see colours around and ask what this that seems observing since seems that our conscious mind not the king our brains this computer won see colour because the chemistry different does algorithm that sees colour have selective advantage over equivalent that doesn shouldn because the outputs each algorithm ought the same equivalent circumstances why see colour this depends what meant seeing colours does neural network that capable recognising handwritten numbers from see the numbers capable sorting them you are asking why does animal who conscious itself observer have evolutionary advantage over animal who doesn have good answer read previous posting where wrote why sense identity helps social animals swap roles and act more morally that they don unconsciously kill each other with newly discovered weapons bit extreme but this the basic idea when early homo became more and more efficient using tools sense identity and the concept self had evolve line with this development indeed respect for others and conscious altruistic behaviour might evolutionary advantages for social animals such early humans remember correctly quantum mechanics consists wavefunction with two processes acting the first process has been called unitary evolution governed schroedinger equation and well known the second process called various things such collapse the wavefunction state vector reduction and more mysterious usually said occur when measurement takes place although nobody seems know precisely when that occurs when does occur the effect abruptly change the wavefunction minds are required for this does this mean that until human minds came the scene wavefunctions never collapsed but remained the superpositions for aeons how powerful are this has been discussed before and think this topic irrelevant since not agree that minds are necessary and neither physicists anyway speculating that minds would part there seems some link between consciousness and that never see linear superpositions anything although there are alternative explainations for this idea how brain supposed access part but since this only speculation that won matter too much main point that there might place for minds physics agree but not the sense you apparently mean above physics needs sharp minds solve many real problems back nice padded cell now that with you you don forget take with you the references wrote about previous posting plus the following kalat james biological psychology wadsworth publishing company belmont skarda explaining behavior bringing the brain back inquiry skarda freeman how brains make chaos order make sense the world behavioral and brain sciences petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics the truth pihatie finou oulu physics the rule oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu chemistry the game
alt.atheism	consciousness part kev strikes back scott sauyet ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu wrote apr nott kevin anthony kax nott writes firstly not impressed with the ability algorithms they great solving problems once the method has been worked out but not working out the method itself crossword example deleted have you heard neural networks read little about them and they seems overcome most your objections sure there are many people who work with neural networks and read this newsgroup please tell kevin what you achieved and what you expect not saying that nns will solve all such problems but think they show that not hard you think come with mechanical models consciousness indeed think dualism non solution dennett recently put dead horse petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics the truth pihatie finou oulu physics the rule oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu chemistry the game
alt.atheism	consciousness part kev strikes back article apr ousrvr oulu kempmp phoenix oulu petri pihko writes kevin anthoney kax nott wrote this post probably either brilliant insane let know which brilliant example using the introspective objection against materialist theories consciousness diplomatic realize fighting occam razor this argument try explain why feel mind necessary firstly not impressed with the ability algorithms they great solving problems once the method has been worked out but not working out the method itself specific example like solve numerical crosswords not the simple the sums and insert the answers type the hard ones these with any efficiency you need figure out variety tricks now know that you can program computer these puzzles but doing you have work out the tricks yourself and program them into the computer you can course obfuscate the trick and write the program that uncovered but far can see the trick still has there some form discovered does this mean that all the ideas will ever have are already pre programmed into our brains this somewhat unlikely given that our brains ultimately are encoded chromosomes worth genetic material much which isn used one way around this bring the environment into the equation but again far can see this still has air you see object then perform action and don seem get anywhere the algorithm has anticipate what might see and what conclusions draw from experience the other problem with algorithms their instability not many algorithms survive you take out large portion their code yet people survive strokes without going completely haywire there are side effects but patients still seem remarkably stable also neurons perfectly healthy people are dying alarming rate can algorithm survive randomly corrupt various bits code the next problem the sticky question what colour replace colour with the sensation your choice presumably the materialist viewpoint that the product some kind chemical reaction the usual products such reaction are energy different chemicals colour mixture these this computer won see colour because the chemistry different does algorithm that sees colour have selective advantage over equivalent that doesn shouldn because the outputs each algorithm ought the same equivalent circumstances why see colour however such view actually nonsolution how should minds able act observers feel pain and pleasure and issue commands any better than the brain moreover how the interactions occur bit idle speculation remember correctly quantum mechanics consists wavefunction with two processes acting the first process has been called unitary evolution governed schroedinger equation and well known the second process called various things such collapse the wavefunction state vector reduction and more mysterious usually said occur when measurement takes place although nobody seems know precisely when that occurs when does occur the effect abruptly change the wavefunction envisage interaction between the wavefunction and something else which shall imaginitively call part seems reasonable assume that something causes although that something might the wavefunction itself which case part simply the wavefunction note though that need more than explain anyway speculating that minds would part there seems some link between consciousness and that never see linear superpositions anything although there are alternative explainations for this idea how brain supposed access part but since this only speculation that won matter too much main point that there might place for minds physics back nice padded cell now that with you petri kevin anthoney kax nott don believe anything you read sig files
alt.atheism	christian morality article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com dan schaertel wrote the life death and resurection christ documented historical fact not any standard history seen care back this sans the lies apologists are fond however all the major events the life jesus christ were fortold hundreds years before him neat trick not really most the prophesies aren even prophesies they prayers and comments taken from the torah quite out context seems xians started lying right from the beginning there way get into sceptical heart you can not say you have given sincere effort with the attitude you seem have arrogant ass aren you must trust not just church and participate activities you wrong think haven the trust was something that doesn exist were you ever willing die for what you believed still willing die for what believe and don believe were the loonies waco what besides the point not die for what one believes the point make that other sorry son bitch die for what believes doesn anyone else here get tired these cretins tirades peter the damed and damned proud don forget sing they say there heaven for those who will wait some say better but say ain rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints the sinners are much more fun only the good die young
alt.atheism	cults religions article bfe aurora engr latech edu ray engr latech edu bill ray wrote james thomas green jgreen trumpet calpoly edu wrote conclusion can shown that there essentially logical argument which clearly differentiates cult from religion challenge anyone produce distinction which clear and can easily knocked down how about this one religion cult which has stood the test time religion cult that got opted people who are better compartmentalizing their irrationality peter don forget sing they say there heaven for those who will wait some say better but say ain rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints the sinners are much more fun only the good die young
alt.atheism	gulf war and peace niks article rusnews mantis mathew mathew mantis writes jbrown batman bmd trw com writes the problem with most peace niks they consider those who are not like them bad and unconscionable would not have any argument problem with peace nik they held their ideals and stayed out all conflicts issues especially those dealing with the national defense but they are not willing allow legitimately hold different point view they militate and many times resort violence all the name peace yawn another right wing wasp imagining oppressed minority perhaps camille paglia right after all personal attacks would not have any argument problem with peace nik they stayed out all conflicts issues bet you wouldn you love deliberate misinterpretation persons statement cutting out the part the statement tries blunt the thrust the sentence never addresses the issue extreemist peace people not holding true their ideals but what makes you think that sitting back saying nothing about defense issues and letting people like you make all the decisions anything with their ideals ignoring the challenge ignores the challenge that extreemists for peace tend quite insistent that everyone accept their ideals for the world and have even turned quite violent witness chicago summer mathew paranoia assumes that anyone who argues against his viewpoint must masturbate over guns ammo fire the oven isn hot enough mccullou whipple wisc edu never program and drink beer the same time doesn work
alt.atheism	death penalty gulf war long article optima arizona edu sham arizona edu shamim zvonko mohamed writes this the most unmitigated bilge seen while jim brown obviously has possession the right wing token diplomatic alternatives including sanctions were ineffective december former national security adviser zbigniew brzezinski told senate committee that sanctions were costing iraq million per day and that the multinational coalition could take all the time the world iraq suggested was losing badly every day defied the demands while the community nations won every day with taking life loss life fcnl washington newsletter understand that number deceptive the reason that the money cost was non oil sales for the most part iraq still not allowed sell oil many the things under the initial sanctions but still surviving and btw the reason brought the blanket bombing germany was because you were bemoaning the iraqi civilian casualties being deplorable yet blanket bombing was instituted because bombing wasn accurate enough hit industrial military targets decisive way any other method that time but the gulf war precision bombing was the norm bullshit the gulf massacre all ordnance used was smart the rest that was just regular dumb iron bombs and stuff have you forgotten that the pentagon definition successful patriot launch was when the missile cleared the launching tube with damage that successful interception scud was defined the patriot and scud passed each other the same area the sky the have heard figures closer but won quibble your figures most was dropped carpet bombing regions only occupied enemy troops drops lot bombs one sortie and used them around the clock not mention other smaller aircraft using dumb munitions the patriot uses proximity fuse the adjusted figures for number patriot kills derivitives that figure came not from some fluke the pentagon but someone working with such stuff another part dod the statement precision bombing was the norm true around areas where civilians were close the target dropped tonnage very little bombs populated regions explaining the figures and the that was the smart stuff hit again try follow here that means this smart arsenal missed this figure far below all the other figures have seen indeed accurate then how you explain the discrepancy between that figure and other figures from international organizations most figures have seen place the hit ratio close which still far higher than your does your figure say bomb missed the plane took off with and the bomb never hit the target regardless whether not the bomb was dropped such methods are used all the time lie with statistics the stories hundreds thousands iraqi civilian dead just plain bunk prove have source that says that date the civilian death count excuse mean collateral damage about have never seen any source that was claiming such figure please post the source its reliability can judged mccullou whipple wisc edu never program and drink beer the same time doesn work
alt.atheism	david coresh god one the morning shows think was the today show david koresh lawyer was interviewed during that interview flipped through some letters that david koresh wrote one letters was written hebrew near the bottom the page koresh adonai did anyone else see that what could this mean him david writing this
alt.atheism	smullyanism for the day article tpi pepper east sun com geoff east sun com geoff arnold sun bos coast near the top writes this raymond smullyan quote too big for sig but deserves posting imho big for sig way keith home the billdboard sig files ryan private note jennifer fakult this post may contain one more the following sarcasm cycnicism irony humor please aware this possibility and not allow yourself confused and thrown for loop doubt assume all the above the owners this account not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability recognize any the above read your own risk jennifer
alt.atheism	christian morality article apr nott kax nott kevin anthoney writes article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes the fact god could cause you believe anything wants you but think about for minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you because they wanted love you there difference between believing the existence entity and loving that entity god could show directly that exists and still have free choice about whether love him not why doesn kevin anthoney kax nott don believe anything you read sig files kevin makes good point here and when that theists miss all too often that the belief diety not necessarily coupled with agreement love that diety really they have yet another bit convincing just beyond belief guess the standard argumet goes something like well once you believe god you know god love and you will choose love him wasnt widely accepted and asserted laughable best regards adam adam john cooper verily often have laughed the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had claws understand one another fear beyond your comprehension gandalf
alt.atheism	christian morality article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com dan schaertel writes article ousrvr oulu kempmp phoenix oulu petri pihko writes dan schaertel dps nasa kodak com wrote love god just much she loves she wants seduce she know what but she did you would probably consider rape probably because rape simple logic arguments are folly you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools those who tried trick him with logic our ability reason just spec creation yet some think the ultimate you rely simply your reason then you will never know more than you now your argument the type you know once you try yet there are many atheists who have sincerely tried and believed for many years but were eventually honest enough admit that they had lived virtual reality obviously there are many christians who have tried and believe nothing may work for some but not for others doesn give any insight into overall god overall truth religion would seem dependent solely the individual well individually created and since christians have failed show how there way life any better than ours not see why the attempt try necessary even particularly attractive learn you must accept that which you don know what does this mean learn you must accept that you don know something right but learn you must accept something don know why this not the way prefer learn unwise merely swallow everything you read suppose write book telling how the great invisible pink unicorn has helped daily problems would you accept this since you can know whether true not one asks you swallow everything fact jesus warns against but let ask you question you beleive what you learn history class for that matter anything school mean just what other people have told you and you don want swallow what others say right well will nerver know for sure were told the truth not but the very least there bit more evidence pointing the fact that say there was military conflict vietnam years ago then there supernatural diety who wants live certain way the fact that jesus warned against means nothing warn against too big deal the life death and resurection christ documented historical fact this not true the first two choices here life and death are scantily documented and the last one total malarky unless one uses the bible and that totally circular perhaps better use the imagination one ignorance someone else will address this sure and refer you plenty documentation much anything else you learn how you choose what believe and what not could argue that george washington myth never lived because don have any proof except what told however all the major events the life jesus christ were fortold hundreds years before him neat trick how this there nothing more disgusting than christian attempts manipulate interpret the old testament being filled with signs for the coming christ every little reference stick bit wood autmoatically interpreted the cross what miscarriage philology there way get into sceptical heart you can not say you have given sincere effort with the attitude you seem have you must trust not just church and participate activities were you ever willing die for what you believed well since have skeptical hearts thank goodness there way get into here have the irreconcilable difference christians glorify exactly what tend despise snub trust belief faith without knowledge lucky one day and happen thinking god the same time enkephalins then may associate this sign god will feel right and will trust without knowing maybe religosity does not seem anything that conclusively arrived but rather seems more sudden affliction believe many were willing die for what believed many were not the question suchg attitude reflective correct healthy morality would seem not the same thing could reflect fanaticism for example and any case expression simple selfishness adam adam john cooper verily often have laughed the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had claws understand one another fear beyond your comprehension gandalf
alt.atheism	from soc religion christian found this little gem don know anyone has any interest comments everyone commited christian that battling with problem know that romans talks about how are saved our faith not our deeds yet hebrews and james say that faith without deeds useless saying you fools you still think that just believing enough now someone fully believing but there life totally lead themselves and not god according romans that person still saved there faith but then there the bit which says that god preferes someone who cold him doesn know him condemned lukewarm christian someone who knows and believes god but doesn make any attempt live the bible now the opinion that you saved through faith alone not what you taught romans but how can square mind the teachings james conjunction with the lukewarm christian being spat out can anyone help this really bothers christ will adam adam john cooper verily often have laughed the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had claws understand one another fear beyond your comprehension gandalf
alt.atheism	college atheists article apr nuscc nus cmtan iss nus tan chade meng dan writes andrew cmu edu nanci ann miller writes nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye writes read article about poll done students the ivy league schools which was reported that third the students indentified themselves atheists this lot higher than among the general population wonder what the reasons for this discrepancy are because they are more intelligent younger this the wave the future what the figure for the general population the last heard americans believe reincarnation can somebody quote stat don have stat but unfortunately did read generally that both smoking and belief the supernatural occultish garbage the rise here would guess that probably has something with the ease which ideas and thoughts are communicated college campus world where theists are forced contend with and listen atheists and theists other religions some are bound have change their beliefs over four years there nowhere run funny country works the other way round univ life stressful for most people remember asian population xtians like prey these people there nowhere run from them this very interesting thing the principle sort the same though all philosophical ideas are generally tried out and tested mostly during college years whether the idea christian atheist doesn always matter but like say because atheists are more intelligent the unenlightened one tan chade meng the wise man tells his wife that understands her singapore cmtan iss nus the fool tries prove regards adam adam john cooper verily often have laughed the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had claws understand one another fear beyond your comprehension gandalf
alt.atheism	some thoughts christian books think took this liar lunatic the real thing the last time was the time before anyway let somebody else have turn can debate with straight face perhaps for something completely different could just ridicule him gather all the posts from the last two times did this and email them him aside can you believe that somebody actually got book published about this must have been vanity press would recomend anyone out there visit your local christian bookstore and become aware the stuff they sell quite interesting most the stuff far from intelectual about the level chick pamphelets common fundie bookstore should have least one section about how you should hate wiccans pagans catholics mormons rock musicians and anyone else who not fanatical them hate for the love god even more interesting watching the people who frequent such places very scary people they hear voices from god telling them whatever they want hear they were not christians most them would locked away maybe this why federal money was reduced mental institutions the reagan administration had get their religious leaders out where would christianity jesus got eight fifteen years with time off for good behavior new york state senator james donovan capitol punishment alan beware touch these wires instant death anyone found doing this will prosecuted
alt.atheism	what means human was parsifal article apr ucla edu brad pierce pierce ucla edu writes the bedrock spiritual unreason the belief that resonant yet but theology full reason even believe based false premises etc etc ill defined terms spirit transcendental mind self consciousness ultimate reality soul elan vital etc have meaning sadly adherents spiritual movements are seldom satisfied hold there meaning consciousness mind self with this harmless illogicality they seem inexorably drawn belief what illogicality the primacy the spiritual and transcendental over the material and empirical the primacy pipe dreams jabberwocky and illusion over facts science and reason since when for instance non behaviourist psychology pipe dream surely the major purpose the science psychology understand the workings the mind all creatures all feelings all thoughts all perceptions all processes and all phenomena are manifestations the mundane matter energy space and time those who believe otherwise albeit some not supplicate god are not atheists manifestations the mundane sounds rather transcendental fact matter energy space and time are well measured but mysterious concepts does atheist really have believe your reductionism cast out not following the true faith richard wilson logica industry ltd
alt.atheism	christian morality acooper mac macalstr edu turin turambar department utter misery said dan schaertel article followed the quoting right much anything else you learn how you choose what believe and what not could argue that george washington myth never lived because don have any proof except what told however all the major events the life jesus christ were fortold hundreds years before him neat trick how this there nothing more disgusting than christian attempts manipulate interpret the old testament being filled with signs for the coming christ every little reference stick bit wood autmoatically interpreted the cross what miscarriage philology think may also worthwhile pointing out that take the appellation rabbi seriously then jesus had full grasp contemporary scripture mat jesus saith unto them did never read the scriptures mat jesus answered and said unto them err not knowing mat the scriptures nor the power god following from this would have been wonderful position fulfil prophesies and the says much mat but how then shall the scriptures fulfilled mat that thus must mat but all this was done that the scriptures the mat prophets might fulfilled then all the disciples mat forsook him and fled the books comprising the referred scripture had not been accessible then probably would different matter tony
alt.atheism	another request for darwin fish hello gang there have been some notes recently asking where obtain the darwin fish this the same question have and have not seen answer the net anyone has contact please post the net email thanks john chadwick johnchad triton unm edu
alt.atheism	another request for darwin fish darwin fish can bought from join the darwinners send receive your official evolving fish wherever you want spread the good news darwinners sunset blvd ste the greatest theory ever told jenny forty years from now nursing homes will filled with demented hackers studying their blank laptop screens nicely placed knitted quilts keep their knees warm mitchum
alt.atheism	faq sheet mike mcangus mam mouse cmhnet org wrote the way news announce newusers has article can remember which one that recommends reading newsgroup for month before posting this makes sense because you get idea who the players are and what the current discussions are about the only one who followed that advice spent month just reading too mainly because did not know much about the way atheists think even printed out the faqs and discussed with friend before started posting alt atheism deals with religious issues more appropriately lack religious beliefs which are their very nature very controversial makes sense read what being discussed and how just make sure you are not repeating something others have said better petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics the truth pihatie finou oulu physics the rule oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu chemistry the game
alt.atheism	gulf war was death penalty was political atheists mark mccullough mccullou snake wisc edu wrote details built chemical plant alteer near baghdad however the plant intended use was aid the iraqi infrastructure not example selling weapon may sound nitpicking but are going refuse sell valuable parts that build the infrastructure because dual use technology contending that this case and the case the sale pesticides companies that they knew full well that was used for the production chemical weapons even that was not its officially stated purpose personally don think that letting iran conquer iraq would have been good thing for that matter neither for the reasons you state the hypocrisy and claims the did not help iraq that make angry plus the fact that the usa seems believe has the right interfere where sees fit has interest rather than duty intervene where required this demonstrated the failure the anything about east timor and the region becoming destabilised the usa might have done something approaching the right thing given reservations about the uncessary number civillian casualites but for wholly the wrong reasons and after having hand creating the situation that way would affect the later military action against iraq did not suggest would and would ridiculous assert otherwise was simply indicating the usa has previously aided iraq intel manufacturing techniques something that nature apparently data orginally from satellites although doubt that iraq would have been given the raw data concerning troop concentrations aaron turner aaron minster york
alt.atheism	death penalty gulf war long shamim zvonko mohamed sham arizona edu wrote bullshit the gulf massacre all ordnance used was smart the rest that was just regular dumb iron bombs and stuff have you forgotten that the pentagon definition successful patriot launch was when the missile cleared the launching tube with damage that successful interception scud was defined the patriot and scud passed each other the same area the sky and the that was the smart stuff hit again try follow here that means this smart arsenal missed used have full figures this including the tons bombs dropped and the number cluster bomblet munitions used had heard the the laser guided weapons hit which unprecedented rate success the iron weapons hit again unprecedented the following rough estimate but this means the tons bombs dropped aircraft around tons missed not sure what proportion this was dropped baghdad rather than troop concentrations iraq and kuwait much the tonnage dropped was cluster munitions were all the mrls rounds and many the artillery rounds napalm and fuel air explosives were also used remember how were told that weapons mass destruction such fae were very naughty indeed
alt.atheism	death penalty gulf war long mark mccullough mccullou snake wisc edu wrote this figure far below all the other figures have seen indeed accurate then how you explain the discrepancy between that figure and other figures from international organizations most figures have seen place the hit ratio close which still far higher than your does your figure say bomb missed the plane took off with and the bomb never hit the target regardless whether not the bomb was dropped such methods are used all the time lie with statistics answering the last sentence claimed that they had success rate without initially explaining until pressed that this meant that the aircraft came back having dropped their bombs somewhere regardless whether they had hit the intended target indeed anything all aaron turner
alt.atheism	death penalty gulf war long mark mccullough mccullou snake wisc edu wrote prove have source that says that date the civilian death count excuse mean collateral damage about have never seen any source that was claiming such figure please post the source its reliability can judged this figure would not simply deaths bombing but also death later from disease the sewer system baghdad was deliberately targeted and starvation believe but when get copy the latest research june july that this was the figure proposed the census bureau report the matter the report was suppressed and the attempted sack the author the report but failed due procedural technicality the author now permanent leave aaron turner
alt.atheism	gulf war selling arms mark mccullough mccullou snake wisc edu wrote heard about the arms sale saudi arabia now how such grave mistake sell saudi arabia weapons are you claiming that shouldn sell any weapons other countries straightforward answer please saudi arabia oppressive regime that has been recently interfering the politcs newly renunified yemen including assasinations and border incursions entirely possible that they will soon invade unluckily for yemen not popular the west they managed put aside political differences during reunification and thus the west has effectively lost one half north client state aaron turner
alt.atheism	free moral agency article darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes deleted stuff from andrew wrt which atheist myth bill andrew the myth which refer the convoluted counterfeit athiests have created make religion appear absurd counterfeit atheists hmmmm just cheap knock offs the true atheists religion demonstrates itself absurd constantly personally someone asks happy point out how this rather than approach religion including christainity rational manner and debating its claims the are stated atheists concoct outrageous parodies and then hold the religious accountable for beliefs they don have what more accurately oxymoric the term like reasonable atheist man what your pill wrt atheists you going make such contentious statements back them least read news time and time again hashed out the beliefs various religous doctrines hold try debating reasonably with someone who makes statement like more accurately oxymoric the term like reasonable atheist then take look the responses given tammy seem pretty reasonable nay even polite accusations myths flyin here good example what said above read the post again said acoording which means referring christian doctrine understand speaking for myself you know purpose posting was present basic overview christain doctrines since seemed germane saw your reference according the original article then you such excellent job spewing dogma that well the implication was pretty clear wrong this case jeez misunderstanding let more statements wrap this thing you read post with same care read the faq wouldn having this conversation you had written your post with the same care the faq has been wouldn having this discussion gems about evidence deleted yes human reason does always come back the existence god having this discussion are not jeez have point this out you this discussion not all instances human reason therefore your implication false well this interesting truth determined politically correct content granted extremely unhip wasp male and anything european contemptable but thought this kind dialogue the purpose was get the truth things but then remember the oxymoron reasonalble atheist and understand how lame can you get who said anything about the truth things read the faq very carefully please then report your findings about where says the purpose find the truth things and stop impressing your own misguided image atheists upon really pissing off bill
alt.atheism	discordian subgenius books addresses etc requested here are some addresses sources bizarre religious satire and commentary plus some bijou book reviewettes loompanics unlimited box port townsend usa publishers one the most infamous mail order book catalogue the world anarchism discordianism libertarianism cryogenics money making legal and illegal privacy and security self defense and all kinds other stuff that keeps christians awake nights the church the subgenius box dallas usa the original end times church for post human mutants high temple for scoffers mockers and blasphemers one the few board the ist saucers and escape space god jhvh stark fist removal bob dobbs god sales waiting take your money and ordain you magazines sick audio cassettes and assorted offensive cynisacreligious material periodic lists addresses pink religious cults and contact points for the world wierdo network expect slow response mail only conspiracies are well organized you will eventually get what you pay for you give them some slack counter productions box london source obscure books wide ranging selection surrealism anarchism subgenius discordianism robert anton wilson lovecraftian horror cyberpunk forteana political and social commentary wilhelm reich orgone tech obscure rock music and send sae and maybe bribe they need your money and ask for catalogue tell them mathew sent you ordered from these folks three four times now and they about fast and efficient you can expect from this sort operation forbidden planet various sites the particular along london new oxford street just down the road from tottenham court road tube station mass market oddness subgenius robert anton wilson loompanics and course huge quantities not terribly good selection but they the high street reviewette loompanics greatest hits isbn loompanics selection articles picked from the books loompanics catalogue subjects include christian dispensationalism how right wing christians encouraged the cold war satanic child abuse myths religion and censorship plus lots anarchist and libertarian stuff situationism computers and privacy and guaranteed contain least one article that offend you like for example the interview with bradley smith the holocaust revisionist good sampling stuff coffee table book course whether you want leave this sort stuff lying around your coffee table another matter quote the fundamentalists leap and down apoplectic rage and joy their worst fantasies are vindicated and therefore they like think their entire theology and socio political agenda too meanwhile teen age misanthropes and social misfits murder their enemies classmates families friends even complete strangers all because they read one anton lavey cooks listened one too many records the born agains are ready burn again and not just books this time reviewette the book the subgenius dobbs the subgenius foundation isbn simon schuster described rolling stone sick masterpiece for those who can still laugh the fact that nothing funny anymore the official bible the subgenius church containing the sacred teachings bob dobbs instant answers everything causes catalytic brain cell loss seconds the secret total slack how relax the safety your delusions and pull the wool over your own eyes nuclear doom and other things laugh quote has been known answer questions concerning universal truths with screams with suggestive silence peeing down his pants leg his most famous sermon was cosmic simplicity bob standing the stage with his hands his pockets smoking looking around and saying nothing heated arguments still rage among the monks often erupting into fatal duels towhether the master consulted his wristwatch during this divine period grace reviewette high weirdness mail rev ivan stang isbn simon schuster encyclopedia wierd organizations you can contact mail space jesuses christian christian ufo contactees new age saps creationists flat earthers white supremacist churches plus yawn csicop sceptical enquirer and stuff like that not just list addresses though each kook group ruthlessly mocked and ridiculed with sarcastic glee you like alt atheism flame wars this the book for you made laugh until stomach ached revised edition due some time the next year two sample entry entertaining demons unawares southwest radio church box oklahoma city your watchman the wall another flagellating genuflecting fundamentalist outfit their booklet entertaining demons unawares exposes the star wars dungeons dragons saturday morning cartoon satanic connection horrifying detail left out smurfs though especially liked the bit about wonder woman antichrist origins keep mind that once you send for anything from these people you their mailing list for life reviewette the abolition work bob black isbn loompanics selection bob black painfully witty and intelligent anarchist tracts collected into book form were this good insufferable probably the only thought provoking political book that fun read quote babble about the wages sin serves cover the sin wages want rights not rites sex not sects only eros and eris belong our pantheon surely the nazarene necrophile has had his revenge now remember pain just god way hurting you reviewette principia discordia malaclypse the younger isbn loompanics the infamous discordian bible reprinted its entirety and then some yes you could ftp the online copy but this one has all the pictures explains absolutely everything including the law fives how start discordian cabal and instructions for preaching discordianism christians quote discordian required during his early illumination off alone partake joyously hot dog friday this devotive caremony remonstrate against the popular paganisms the day catholic christendom meat friday judaism meat pork hindic peoples meat beef buddhists meat animal and discordians hot dog buns reviewette natural law don put rubber your willy robert anton wilson isbn loompanics the author the illuminatus trilogy rails against natural law natural morality objective reality and other pervasive myths witty and thought provoking work from someone who actually seems know argument from hole the ground quote since theological propositions are scientifically meaningless those pragmatic disposition simply won buy such dubious merchandise maybe remotely there might something such promotions there might something the talking dogs and the stocks arabian tapioca mines that fields once sold his comedies but suspect that recognize con game operation least want hear the dog talk see the tapioca ore before buy into such deals all the books mentioned above should available from counter productions the directly from the subgenius foundation loompanics unlimited mathew what you mean anyway dreamed laid toaster daddy caught the act can you take devo
alt.atheism	free moral agency article voinnr lynx unm edu cfaehl vesta unm edu chris faehl writes the myth which refer the convoluted counterfeit athiests have created make religion appear absurd counterfeit atheists hmmmm just cheap knock offs the true atheists they must theists disguise any event don need create religious parodies just look some actual religions which are absurd mand now mdeep thoughts mby jack handey mif you parachuting and your parachute doesn open and your friends are all watching you fall think funny gag would pretend you were swimming
alt.atheism	atheism survey doing research atheism part which involves field research here the net the following survey directed towards all readers this group intended get data about the basis atheistic belief would seriously appreciate each and every one you would fill out and mail back mtabbott unix amherst edu first all tried structure questions that can answered variety ways with varying amounts detail possible give succinct answers most everything but there enough here keep most you typing for hours sure much detail you want give mean great but also important for have broad base individuals possible even minimal responses are far better than nothing short survey you just answer the questions without elaboration secondly hope some the questions don come off obnoxious know that phrases like what would convince you the existence god imply that seminary student intent proving you all ignorant godless heathens fact not too sure about the existence higher power myself use god question locution rather than ideology easier than just repeating deity higher power every time also tend use lot anthropological buzzwords like belief system although know some you might contend that you don have any beliefs but are skeptical towards everything understand but you know what mean think such buzzwords abbreviations for the rather unweildy phrases required get the precise idea across lastly thanks please fill out much you can much detail you can and send them research and thank you where would you place your beliefs the spectrum theism agnosticism weak atheism strong atheism feel free elaborate your specific beliefs what any religious tradition were you raised did you ever believe the existence god several the following questions presume that the answer this yes you always been atheist least never theist you may have modify the question answer somewhat how serious was your your family involvement how and when did you start doubt the tenets you were raised believe how and when did your final break with your beliefs any occur realize that this often more ongoing process than event per whatever the case just describe whatever detail you wish what contact with other atheists have you had before and after and during your conversion atheism certainly your involvement with alt atheism counts how have net discussions affected your beliefs what extent you think other atheists have influenced you your beliefs did you come your beliefs through discussion through independent means some combination the two other means are you convinced that your beliefs were acquired through wholly rational means proofs the non existence god etc was perhaps least part through other means alienation from mainstream religion etc what extent you feel you understand the universe through your beliefs what phenomena the universe and human existence anything from physical phenomena the problem the existence evil human affairs you feel are adequately dealt with your beliefs and where are they lacking explanatory method what would take for you question change your beliefs what would convince you the existence god what would convince you the plausibility god existence and forth how dynamic are your beliefs are they constantly changing have they stayed more less the same for some time are you involved career education science what extent you think science has influenced your beliefs issac asimov claimed that science was the new secular religion and that scientists are very real sense the new priesthood you see the pursuit science having quasi religious base even religious element this survey intended get data from broad range individuals but also help narrow down the field small group people whose ideas and histories could very useful would you willing have the basis this survey write you find out more about you and your beliefs not fine your filling out the survey alone great thanks again feel free contact you have any questions about what doing with this data you have anything say addition what asked about above mark abbott mtabbott unix amherst
alt.atheism	americans and evolution now with free ockham razor inside sorry about the delay responding due conference paper deadline panic article qsnqqinn senator bedfellow mit edu bobs thnext mit edu robert singleton writes article apr dcs warwick simon dcs warwick simon clippingdale writes alarming amounts agreement deleted made statement about ockums razor from experiences physics thanks for info baysian statistics very interesting and didn know before follow your proof but have one questions have two hypotheses and the latter more complicated which definition means that complicated isn fact where comes from more the other way around from where the complement and axiom anything sense necessarily more complicated than for any and may splitting hairs but what trying say that irrespective subjective impressions how complicated something holds with equality and only you point out very simple matter show and thus preferd now say that consistent with the data say can you elaborate some this well means that likely observed operative operative this implies that observing does not provide any useful information which might allow discriminate between the respective possibilities that and are operative the difference reduces the difference between the unknown and unhelpful prior probabilities and and where and are equally consistent with the data that observing doesn give any pointers which operative the particular case where and however know that their prior probabilities are ordered although don know the actual values and this which allows deploy the razor throw out any such also the real world isn clear cut and dry seems can always determine whether the equality true that certainly true but the particular point here was whether not divine component actually underlies the prevalence religion addition the memetic transmission component which even the religious implicitly acknowledge operative when they talk spreading the word now seems said that the observed variance religious belief well accounted for the memetic transmission model but rather less well one proposes divine component addition since would expect the latter conspire against wide variance and even mutual exclusion among beliefs thus personal feeling that isn even equal this case but smaller memetic transmission divine component the variance among beliefs but happily acknowledge that this subjective impression btw beef with your baysian argument was not mathematical one checked most your work and didn find error and you seem very careful there probably isn math mistake think the mistake philosophical but just make sure understand you can please rephrase non technical terms think this reasonable request always try look for ways explaining physics non physicist not baysian statistician nor any type statistician this would very helpful not that statistician such either but the idea that both theism and atheism are compatible with all the read observations date however theism the type with which concerned also suggests that for instance prayer may answered people may miraculously healed both are principle amenable statistical verification and that god may generally intervene measurable ways this means that these regions the space possible observations which loosely termed appearances god have some nonzero probability under the theistic hypothesis and zero under the atheistic since there only much probability available for each hypothesis scatter around over the observation space the probability which theism expends making appearances god possible must come from somewhere else other possible observations all else being equal this means that observation which isn appearance god must have slightly higher probability under atheism than under theism the bayesian stuff implies that such observations must cause running estimate for the probability the atheistic hypothesis increase with corresponding decrease running estimate for the probability the theistic hypothesis sorry that still bit jargonesque but rather difficult put any other way since does depend intimately the properties conditional probability densities and particularly that the total area under them always unity analogy may may not helpful say that hypothesis the coin fair and that the coin unfair two headed used and avoid confusion with heads and tails then total total the observations are string heads with tails this compatible with both fair coin and two headed coin however the probability expended making possible the appearance tails even though they don actually appear must come from somewhere else since the total must unity and comes this case from the probability the appearance heads say our running estimates time are and the observation time another head the estimates are modified according and now don know the actual prior probability head but the multiplier for half that for this true every time the coin tossed and head observed thus whatever the initial values the estimates after heads have and and since any time you can show that and thus hence the estimate for the fair coin hypothesis must decrease each trial and that for the two headed coin hypothesis must increase even though both hypotheses are compatible with string heads the loose analogy between unfair coin and atheism and between fair coin and theism with observations consistent with both tail which would falsify unfair coin analogous appearance god which would falsify atheism not claiming that the analogy extends the numerical values the various probabilities just that the principle the same constant observation evidence for gods evidence for them all possible under the respective theisms constantly increases the notional estimated probability that they don exist important draw distinction between theism that could supported not supported evidence and theism that can given theism for which evidence principle not possible doesn make sense say lack evidence supports the contrary view quite but this type theism what might call the the terms our ockham razor discussion and bin those grounds depends upon your conception this god conception like zeus who happened come down earth play quite frequently then agree with you lack evidence for this conception god evidence that does not exist but your conception god one that does not make falsifiable predictions see below falsifiable predictions then disagree lack evidence does not support disbelief the hypotheses don have falsifiable and indeed model the theism isn falsifiable used the phrase should obverse given any specific theism does not make the prediction that why used the word should theism makes predictions about any specific event can only say believe that god did such and such after such and such happens believe god will such and such but for any given can never priori say can not even say this for the set all some this what don like about your use probability also have way assigning these probabilities hold science positivistic criteria someone cannot tell how measure even principle then probability not applicable hypothesis such the case when theistic and atheistic for example what how measure you don have don need the above analogy know any prior probabilities deduce that the updating multiplier for the fair coin hypothesis less than unity and that the corresponding multiplier for the two headed coin hypothesis greater than unity you don need know the initial values the running estimates either clear that after large number observations fair coin approaches zero and two headed coin approaches unity all you need know whether larger than for observed and this follows from the assumptions that there are certain events rendered possible not necessary under which are not possible under and all else equal baysian statistics relies upon series observations but what the hypothesis isn amenable observation and even for statements that are amenable observation some observations are not relevant sequence observations must chosen with care curious know what types observations you have mind concerning theism and atheism any observations you like really doesn matter nor affect the reasoning provided that there are some possible observations which would count appearances god examples this might demonstration the efficacy prayer the veracity revelation but any statement about for general still counts prediction the theism question says that prayer may answered that miracles may happen see interpretation quoted again above what god exists means then this prediction for such what distinguishes from the atheist hypothesis which predicts that this stuff does not happen for such theism does not make the claim that for such should say that theism doesn maybe was too quick say had common language you said that the existence god you mean the notion that the deity described the bible and christians does interact with the universe claimed those agents agreed with this however must careful here believe this not making any claims maybe should have changed does can there important shift emphasis but any way since only have belief cannot conclude for such downgrade does interact may interact which would actually better since does interact implies falsifiability which both agree misplaced don think theism makes predictions maybe not understanding what you mean prediction could you explain what you mean this word explain but bear mind that this isn central all require theism that not make the prediction appearances god will never happen does atheism before somebody points out that quantum mechanics doesn make this prediction either the difference that and atheism not form partition predictions include such statements prayer efficacious implying you the stats you will find that prayer efficacious prayer not efficacious verily say unto you this generation shall not pass till all these things fulfilled don think have any problems misunderstanding here persistent observation this stuff not happening consistent with though may more consistent with explained the bayesian stats post even god exists unfalsifiable that problem for argument other than that you have let the number observations infinity falsify asymptotically btw not consider argument that requires infinite number observations valid rather that part the argument not valid existing humans can never make infinite number measurments and any conclusion that reilies this don accept valid that fine don claim that theism false merely that the finite number observations available far suggest that and that continue observe the suggestion looks better and better renormalization stuff deleted the bayesian stats post assumed that theism was indeed unfalsifiable finite number observations here the relevant quote the important assumption that there are some observations which are compatible with the theist hypothesis and not with the atheist hypothesis and thus would falsify atheism these are what called appearances god but this need not taken too literally any observation which requires for its explanation that one more gods exist will count all other observations are assumed compatible with both hypotheses this leaves theism unfalsifiable and atheism falsifiable single observation only such appearances god here problem with this for something falsifiable must make the prediction that should not seen seen then the hypothesis has been falsified now atheism word oposition something theism theism aserts belief and atheism aserts disbelief there are certain atheisms that are certainly falsifiable just there are certain theisms that are falsifable theism asserts the world only years old and that god does not decieve then this has been falsified however the atheism that oposition unfalsifiable theism also unfalsifiable could wrong this statment contd think you are appearance god sufficient falsify atheism whereas general the corresponding theism unfalsifiable think more about until then here general question suppse were unfalsifiable not also unfalsifiable way counterexample let the coin fair more accurately that not makes sense the two sides the coin are different this unfalsifiable tossing the coin even string heads consistent with fair coin and you have infinite number tosses falsify the limit its converse falsifiable and falsified when least one head and least one tail have appeared this partly what wrong with you baysian argument which requires observations made there are simply such observations that have truth value relation the statement god exists now use your symmetry argument can understand why someone would say since the statement god does not exist makes predictions will choose not believe but none the less this would founded type faith you don like the word faith insert belief for which there falsifiable evidence instead assume you meant god exists there the highlight but our agreed definition exists the statement makes predictions said above although isn falsifiable finite number observations actually mean god does not exist makes predictions oops sorry mea culpa the truth this statment actually depends upon which god you are refering but can think some conceptions god for which true but once again open the posibility that could wrong give some examples predictions the statment god does not exist here one that can think true then there would healing miricles but this can principle never determined one way the other there are cases which people seem recover and are healed without the help doctor and for known reason these situations fact happen they are consistent with theistic hypothesis but way support such hypothesis agree here they are not inconsistent with atheistic hypothesis can think one prediction from god does not exist that isn this type but might missing something the rapture will not happen october said rapture would have falsified atheism satisfaction had happened although its failure happen does not course falsify any theisms other than those which specifically predicted phenomenon which requires the existence one more gods for its explanation will ever observed that about sums the whole thing bob singleton bobs thnext mit edu cheers simon simon clippingdale simon dcs warwick department computer science tel university warwick fax coventry
alt.atheism	some thoughts healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy writes tammy see maddi trimmed healy well you going have practice but you getting the hang soon going have give you new nickname try these for size tammy lucky seven healy tammy pass the falafel healy tammy healy tammy learning doing healy maddi never useful post hausmann maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california kids please don try this home remember post professionally
alt.atheism	free moral agency article kmr cwru edu kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes mand now mdeep thoughts mby jack handey mif you parachuting and your parachute doesn open and your friends are all watching you fall think funny gag would pretend you were swimming you fall opens too gravity not just good idea the law dean kaflowitz
alt.atheism	religion cause was islamic authority over women scott sauyet ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu wrote the same works for the horrors history claim that christianity had little with the crusades the inquisition deny the awesome power that comes from faith absolute what seems you are doing twisting the reasonable statement that religion was never the solitary cause any evil into the unreasonable statement that religion has had evil impacts history that absurd scott until this paragraph would willingly amend earlier statements since your point are well made and generally accurate this last part though slips into hyperbole since discussed objections such generalizations before really don feel need again you haven seen those posts ask maddi she saves everything write bill
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes article idi fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes now you are saying that islamic bank something other than bcci would you care explain why was that when said hope islamic bank something other than bcci you called childish propagandist yes sure because the only obvious reason anyone would make the jump from bcci islamic bank associating islamic banking with muslim ownership but this case said hoped that bcci was not islamic bank and the only reason one would generalize from given islamic bank all islamic banks through stereotype one bad therefore all are bad but this case said hoped that bcci was not islamic bank next think you know there bosnia tap but this case said hoped that bcci was not islamic bank jon
alt.atheism	free moral agency article dba dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes article fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes deletion conner bobby mozumder myth performing artist real moslem crackpot provocateur you know everything and read all minds why don you tell side note isn telling that one cannot say for sure bobby mozunder firm believer provocateur what does that say about religious beliefs think that insightful comment especially when the same time have people like bill projector conner complaining that are posting parodies jon
alt.atheism	societally acceptable behavior article news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes ioh fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article qgm news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes this doesn seem right want kill you can because that what decide sounds though you are confused between what want and what think morally right jon what you mean would your idea still apply said think kill you because that what decided what mean what said what want does not automatically translate into what think right that does not translate that way for you reply that think kill you because that what decided then what that means that for you what want does translate into what think right just doesn translate that way for jon
alt.atheism	societal basis for morality article apr cnsvax uwec edu nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye writes you asked look over here but was way back anyway reply cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb morals come from what societally accepted why follow that what right have expect others follow our notion societally mandated morality pardon the extremism but couldn murder your brother and say that was exercising rights saw them was doing what felt good didn want anyone forcing their morality don follow your morality believe that morality subjective each person entitled his own moral attitudes mine are not priori more correct than someone elses this does not mean however that must judge another the basis his rather than moral standards while entitled believe what his own moral sense tells him the rest society entitled pass laws spelling out punishments for behavior that offensive the majority why your last statement why which authority most criminals not see their behavior moral the may realize that immoral and not care they are thus not following their own moral system but being immoral for someone lay claim alternative moral system must sincere his belief and must internally consistent why your last statement why are these things necessary and believe belief terrorism can both sincere and frighteningly consistent some sociopaths lack innate moral sense and thus may incapable behaving morally while someone like hitler may have believed that his actions were moral may judge him immoral our standards holding that morality subjective does not mean that must excuse the murderer trouble this would sound just fine coming from someone like hitler too not mean any comparison offence david try substituting the social minority your choice for sociopath hitler and murderer logical difference someone like you someone like hitler zero sum frank dwyer not hatching that odwyer sse from hens evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	faith and dogma reply tgk toronto edu todd kelley light what happened waco need get something chest faith and dogma are dangerous agreed philosopher cannot christian because philosopher can change his mind whereas christian cannot due the nature faith and dogma present any religion hard for understand but quite few professional scientists and philosophers are theists sure religion has many good qualities encourages benevolence and philanthropy but also intolerance and superstition not sure that the balance not detrimental wouldn nice everyone were secular humanist sure would david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire this patently absurd but whoever wishes become philosopher must learn not frightened absurdities bertrand russell
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes not position say since know nothing about the situation that does not estimation qualify having head ass bob never accused you having your head your ass takes quite some time dealing with someone before accusing them having their head their ass was accusing the original poster benedikt believe being impaired after insult gregg resorts lies article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes could you maybe flesh out just bit did miss the full grandeur content virtue blinding atheism you may having difficulty seeing the light because you have your head your ass suggest making sure this not the case before posting again that was the original answer while does not say that has the head necessarily its ass would meaningless and pointless was not insinuated benedikt
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality article fpv horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes deletion point morals are essence personal opinions usually ideally well founded motivated such but nonetheless personal the fact that real large lot people agree some moral question sometimes even for the same reason does not make morals objective makes humans somewhat alike their opinions that moral question which can good for the evolution social species and real large lot nice phrase people agree that there football desk supposed see logical difference between the two perhaps you can explain the difference since you seem see clearly rest deleted that fallacy and not the first time pointed out for one you have never given set morals people agree upon unlike football further you conveniently ignore here that there are many who would not agree tghe morality something the analogy does not hold one can expect sufficiently many people agree its being football while you have give the evidence that only vanishing number disagrees with set morals you have give further the above evidence not proof proof would evolve out testing your theory absolute morals against competing theories the above one the arguments you reiterate while you never answer the objections evidence that you are preacher benedikt
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics article jcinnt lynx unm edu cfaehl vesta unm edu chris faehl writes correction hard atheism faith yes can faith like weak atheism had that before benedikt
alt.atheism	theism and fanatism was islamic genocide article horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes theism strongly correlated with irrational belief absolutes irrational belief absolutes strongly correlated with fanatism deletion theism correlated with fanaticism have neither said that all fanatism caused theism nor that all theism leads fanatism the point theism increases the chance becoming fanatic one could course argue that would fanatics tend towards theism for example but just have loook the times history when theism was the dominant ideology invalidate that conclusion that that the basic mechanism behind imo the influence stalin for that matter ayn rand invalidates your assumption that theism the factor considered bogus just said that theism not the only factor for fanatism the point that theism factor gullibility blind obedience authority lack scepticism and are all more reliable indicators and the really dangerous people the sources fanaticism are often none these things they are cynical manipulators the gullible who know precisely what they are doing that claim you have support please note that especially the field theism the leaders believe what they say now some brands theism and more precisely some theists tend fanaticism grant you tar all theists with this brush bigotry not reasoned argument and reads like warm for censorship and restriction religious freedom ever read animal farm that straw man and usually discussions with you one has repeat read what have written above not every theism leads fanatism and not all fanatism caused theism the point there correlation and comes from innate features theism gullibility the way one them and say that going forbid religion another your straw men interesting that you have nothing better offer define irrational belief rational believe that reason always useful irrational belief belief that not based upon reason the latter has been discussed for long time with charley wingate one point that the beliefs violate reason often and another that process that does not lend itself rational analysis does not contain reliable information well there glaring paradox here argument that reason useful based reason would circular and argument not based reason would irrational which that bogus self reference not circular and since the evaluation usefulness possible within rational systems allowed your argument silly proving mathematical statements needs mathematics and mathematics are therfore circular the first part the second statement contains information because you don say what the beliefs are the beliefs are strong theism and strong atheism then your statement not general true the second part your sentence patently false counterexample axiomatic datum does not lend itself rational analysis but assumed contain reliable information regardless what process used obtain been speaking religious systems with contradictory definitions god here axiomatic datum lends itself rational analysis what you say here often refuted fallacy have look the discussion the axiom choice and further one can evaluate axioms larger systems out which they are usually derived exist derived you want that way further one can test the consistency and set axioms what you are trying say compared the evidence theists have for their claims the strength their demands makes the whole thing not only irrational but antirational can agree with this until you are specific which theism say that all theism necessarily antirational requires proof which suspect you not have using the traditonal definition gods personal supernatural entities with objective effects this world usually connected morals and the way the world works the affinity fanatism easily seen has true because believe nothing more than work hypothesis however the beliefs say they are more than work hypothesis don understand this can you formalise your argument person believes system becuase sounds nice that does not make true best work hypothesis however the content that true and that more than work hypothesis testing evaluating evidence for against therefore dismissed because already believed says wrong waste time not possible depending the further contents amalekites idolaters protestants are killed this can have interesting effects answer the question what the absolute set morals people agree like they would agree football being football benedikt
alt.atheism	islamic authority over women article racm darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes can recall anyone claiming that god makes anyone act particlar way think that you attempting manufacture contradiction world creator god does the moment creates the world and sayi that you can recall anyone even below your usual standard arguing argument based quite usual theistic assumptions namely god perfect god all knowing god sets the rules the rules don work for whatever reason because its omniscience the god has known advance deletion say that something defined contadictorily cannot exist really asking too much you would have existence depend grammar all you can really say that something poorly defined but that itself insufficient decide anything other than confusion course not question grammar question modelling has been discussed the wonderful time when you were not posting this group when contradictorily defined does not point instance reality unless there more information the definition that allows find somehow however when the contradictory attribute said essential has not got that attribute not the looking for can conclude that does not exist your point that there are better reasons for the phenomenon belief than the object belief may lead rat nest unnecessary complexity think know what you implying but like see your version this better alternative just the same that quite like predict coins falling predicted happened heads tails tails tails heads tails heads tails take and dismiss the rest because the unnecessary complexity the other evidence causes for easy understand explanation why humans believe gods read manwatching desmond morris benedikt
alt.atheism	death penalty gulf war long jbrown batman bmd trw com writes don regret the fact that sometimes military decisions have made which affect the lives innocent people but regret the circumstances which make those decisions necessary and regret the suffering caused those decisions afraid going have kill you don worry though loving christian guarantee that will regret the fact that have kill you although won regret the actual killing hadn intervened allowing hussein keep kuwait then would have been appeasement right but did you ever hear anyone advocate such course action are you just setting strawman not setting strawman all you want argue against the war then the only logical alternative was allow hussein keep kuwait false dichotomy diplomatic alternatives including sanctions were ineffective that because they weren even attempted but what about those who didn support hitler dreams conquest not they democratically voted for all his policies the nsdap got the elections and that was the last chance the german people got vote the matter they suffered along with the rest why does this bother you much you want know why bothers that thousands innocent people were maimed killed bombing the end when was far from clear that such bombing was necessary the world full evil and circumstances are not perfect many innocents suffer due the wrongful actions others regretable but that the way and why that way who set things that way this was happening before the gulf war why didn send the bombers east timor why aren sending the bombers now probably because not the saviors the world can police each and every country that decides self destruct invade another just the ones that have oil the ones that look like they might make success communism nor are strategic position get relief tibet east timor some other places don see that getting forces east timor any harder than getting them iraq tibetan people are rounded tortured and executed amnesty international recently reported that torture still widespread china why aren stopping them fact why are actively sucking them trading freely with them tell how could stop them and support for one not agree with the present policy sucking them you put agree that deplorable fine write your congressman and president clinton china status most favoured nation comes for renewal june point out that the shouldn offering favourable trading terms such despicable regime doubt anything will happen clinton keener trade sanctions against europe unbelievable comments about the rodney king case deleted the media not totally monolithic even though there prevailing liberal bias programs such the macneil lehrer news hour try give balanced and fair reporting the news there are even conservative sources out there you know where look hurrah for rush any idea how many kill files you just ended atheist arguing against killing innocent people you supposed christian are arguing that kill innocent people long you get some guilty ones well hardly didn say that good thing kill innocent people the end just unfortunately don live perfect world and there are perfect solutions one going resist tyranny then innocent people both sides are going suffer and die didn say unfortunate but sometimes necessary the ends justify the means you having criticised moral relativism the past are now arguing that position judge the morality allied actions the end the war you certainly are not such position you are moral relativist the same tired old misunderstanding moral relativism means that there objective standard morality doesn mean you can judge other people morals christ bike how many times have tried hammer that into your head where your christian love where your absolute morality how quick you are discard them when suits you ivan stang would say jesus would puke one day will stand before jesus and give account every word and action even this discourse this forum understand the full ramifications that and prepared don believe that you can make the same claim obviously not atheist don think you get with jesus though was long haired lunatic peace nik was not and btw the reason brought the blanket bombing germany was because you were bemoaning the iraqi civilian casualties being deplorable yet blanket bombing was instituted because bombing wasn accurate enough hit industrial military targets decisive way any other method that time but the gulf war precision bombing was the norm the point was why make big stink about the relatively few civilian casualties that resulted spite precision bombing when many more civilians proportionately and quantitatively died under the blanket bombing right unfortunately for you turned out that opinions the matter were entirely consistent that condemned the bombing dresden too think you being bit glib with your explanation the blanket bombing policy too you make sound though were aiming for military targets and could only get them destroying civilian buildings next door understand that not the case aimed deliberately civilian targets order cause massive damage and inspire terror amongst the german people civilians suffer but less civilians suffered this war than any other iany other history come with wars like the falklands fresh people minds that sort propaganda isn going fool anyone the stories hundreds thousands iraqi civilian dead just plain bunk yes bunk the lost servicemen over four years and the majority them were directly involved fighting yes and what about the millions casualties the russians suffered hardly surprising the didn lose many men given that you turned late mathew
alt.atheism	gulf war selling arms jbrown batman bmd trw com writes mathew agree this seems the crux your whole position isn that the shouldn have supported hussein and sold him arms fight iran agree and agree ruthlessly hunting down those who did but did sell arms hussein and done deal now invades kuwait just sit back and say well sold him all those arms suppose just wants use them now too bad for kuwait unfortunately sitting back and letting things not the way correct former mistake destroying hussein military potential did was the right move but agree with your statement reagan and bush made grave error judgment sell arms hussein but still happening that the entire point only last month john major hailed great victory that had personally secured sale arms saudi arabia the same month sold jet fighters the same indonesian government that busy killing the east timorese all very well say oops made boo boo better clean the mistake but the and keep making the same mistake they often that can believe not deliberate this suspicion reinforced the fact that the mistake extremely profitable one for decrepit economy reliant arms sales really not the gulf war you abhor much was the and the west shortsightedness selling arms hussein which ultimately made the war inevitable right thought both were terrible mathew
alt.atheism	gulf war was death penalty was political atheists mccullou snake wisc edu mark mccullough writes looked back this and asked some questions various people and got the following information which had claimed and you pooh poohed the has not sold iraq any arms what about the land mines which have already been mentioned other countries like kuwait information hard prove you are claiming that the sold information prove information hard prove almost certainly the did sell information then that fact classified and you can prove very neat dismiss everything say unless can prove beyond shadow doubt something which you yourself admit can never prove your satisfaction thanks stick squaring circles mathew
alt.atheism	gulf war and peace niks jbrown batman bmd trw com writes the problem with most peace niks they consider those who are not like them bad and unconscionable would not have any argument problem with peace nik they held their ideals and stayed out all conflicts issues especially those dealing with the national defense but they are not willing allow legitimately hold different point view they militate and many times resort violence all the name peace yawn another right wing wasp imagining oppressed minority perhaps camille paglia right after all would not have any argument problem with peace nik they stayed out all conflicts issues bet you wouldn you love but what makes you think that sitting back saying nothing about defense issues and letting people like you make all the decisions anything with their ideals mathew
alt.atheism	strong weak atheism acooper mac macalstr edu turin turambar department utter misery writes did that faq ever got modified define strong atheists not those who assert the nonexistence god but those who assert that they believe the nonexistence god word yes mathew
alt.atheism	who has read rushdie the satanic verses perry dsinc com jim perry writes anyway since seem the only one following this particular line discussion wonder how many the rest the readership have read this book what are your thoughts bought copy the satanic verses when there was talk the british government banning there nothing interests book more than making illegal however still sitting shelf unread perhaps get round soon still got pile lem bulgakov and zamyatin through don find nearly enough time read fact there are far more interesting things than can ever find time for how anyone ever manages bored beyond didn have sleep maybe could manage mathew atheism anti virus software for the mind
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article apr bnr rashid writes article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger wrote have already made the clear claim that khomeini advocates views which are contradition with the qur and have given arguments for this this something that can checked anyone sufficiently interested khomeini being dead really can respond but another poster who supports khomeini has responded with what clearly obfuscationist sophistry this should quite clear atheists they are less susceptible religionist modes obfuscationism don mind saying this but the best example obfuscation condemn without having even your most basic facts straight you want some examples back and look your previous posts where you manage get your facts wrong about the fatwa and khomeini supposed infallibility why shouldn mind sounds you are proceeding with just the sort obfuscation you have accused always preceeded statements with understanding that now have made claim clear with regard the issue both the twelve imams and with khomeini supposed claim infalibility after hearing your seemingly more knowledgable claim that khomeini made such claim regarding himself have withdrawn that portion statement regarding that claim however have received such response regarding the infallibility the twelve imams there nothing obfuscationist about claims which are always made clearly have received such clear response regarding the twelve imams but rather abstruse references unusual metaphysical natures and other such opaque concepts often used people camoflage the baselessness their positions particularly matters theology these are just the sorts concepts used christian churches the perverting their religion salaam laikum alaikum wassalam gregg
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article apr bnr rashid writes article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger wrote think many reading this group would also benefit knowing how deviant the view articulated above which may not the true view khomeini from the basic principles islam that the non muslim readers this group will see how far from the simple basics islam such views are the face them and they are not contradiction with the basics islam how subtle such issues are and how seems sects exist islam while they are explicitly proscribed the qur discussing here fine shall start new thread called say infallibility islam and move the discussion there think this should illuminating all let make first suggestion when arabic words especially technical ones become use let define them for those especially atheists whom they may not terribly familiar please also note that though did initially refer khomeini heretic for what understood claim rejected you since personal infallibility withdraw this basis for such statement conditionally retain this reference regard khomeini advocacy the thesis the infallibility the called twelve imams which clear conflict with the qur that places the twelve imams category behavior and example higher than that the muhammad that the qur shows that the prophet was clearly fallible well appears given your abstruse theological statment regarding the natures the twelve imams placing them different metaphysical category than the remainder humanity with the possible exception muhammad something which verges the sin association salam laikum alaikum wassalam gregg
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality article dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes article fpv horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes deletion point morals are essence personal opinions usually ideally well founded motivated such but nonetheless personal the fact that real large lot people agree some moral question sometimes even for the same reason does not make morals objective makes humans somewhat alike their opinions that moral question which can good for the evolution social species and real large lot nice phrase people agree that there football desk supposed see logical difference between the two perhaps you can explain the difference since you seem see clearly rest deleted that fallacy and not the first time pointed out not fallacy note the supermajority disinterested people agree fundamantal value not doing ethics yet benedikt then what the difference between that and those people agreeing trivial observation for one you have never given set morals people agree upon unlike football further you conveniently ignore here that there are many who would not agree tghe morality something the analogy does not hold have however given example value people agree and explained why people will agree that their freedom valuable have also stated that such value necessary condition for doing objective ethics the assertion above and that what talking about there isn point talking about ethics this can agreed one can expect sufficiently many people agree its being football while you have give the evidence that only vanishing number disagrees with set morals you have give not doing morals ethics can get past values say the only cogent objection freedom example that maybe people aren talking about the same thing when they answer that valuable maybe not and want think about this some especially the implications its being true further the above evidence not proof proof would evolve out testing your theory absolute morals against competing theories garbage that not proof either the above one the arguments you reiterate while you never answer the objections evidence that you are preacher name that fallacy frank dwyer not hatching that odwyer sse from hens evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	studies book mormon tue apr gmt cfairman leland stanford edu carolyn jean fairman said cjf agrino enkidu mic andres grino brandt asks about mormons cjf although don personally know about independent sudies know cjf few things cjf writes there are some mention about events places historical persons later discovered archeologist cjf one the more amusing things the bom claim that cjf civilization existed north america aroun where the mystical plates cjf were found not only did use steel and other metals but had cjf lots wars very one has ever found any metal swords cjf and traces civilization other than the native americans was talking the head the archeology dept once college and the topic mormon archeology came seems that the mormon church was big giving grants archeologists prove that the native americans are really the lost tribe israel and other such bunk the archeologists would shake their head knowingly while listening them take the grant and off real archeology anyway mccreary edm twisto compaq com were not for laughter there would tao
alt.atheism	science and theories per various threads science and creationism started dabbling into book called christianity and the nature science moreland question that had come from one his comments stated that god not necessarily religious term but could used other scientific terms that give explanation for events theories without being proven scientific fact think got his point can quote the section being vague the examples gave were quarks and continental plates are there explanations science parts theories that are not measurable and themselves can everything quantified measured tested etc mac michael cobb and won raise taxes the middle university illinois class pay for programs champaign urbana bill clinton debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody can explain everything anybody chesterton
alt.atheism	age reason was who has read rushdie wed apr gmt sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik said this the story kent the archetype finn that lives the bay area and tried purchase thomas paine age reason this man was driving around staceys books inc well cleanlighted place daltons various other places when asked for this book the well educated american book store assistants most placed asked him check out the thriller section then they said that his book has not been published yet but they should receive the book soon some places the assistants bluntly said that they don know such author that not well known living author they don keep copies his books such the life and times america years after the revolution sigh now don feel bad searching for copy bookstores has been habit mine for least two years now spend lot time browsing through bookstores new and and used and not once seen copy now know all pick phone and order the darned thing but come this america and one the founding fathers and one carries his books sure you can find common sense but think that because required reading for most colleges did find one hole the wall bookstore where the owner said that they usually carry one two copies but that they were currently out haven been back since don know was telling the truth not sigh mccreary edm twisto compaq com were not for laughter there would tao
alt.atheism	science and theories article news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes the examples gave were quarks and continental plates are there sounds like more the same gods were used describe almost everything the past come understand the underpinnings more and more the less credit god now the not well understood elements least the author includes quarks and tectonic drift guess that better than describing the perceived patterns stars the sky heroes being immortalized the gods kinda sounds like old earth creation seems that life did indeed evolve from common ancestor what caused that initial common ancestor are going hear another debate causeless events explanations science parts theories that are not measurable and themselves can everything quantified measured tested etc mac michael cobb frank doss the above stated words are opinions and not reflect the opinions attitudes policies employer any affilliated organizations
alt.atheism	theism and fanatism was islamic genocide article dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes article tqo ook horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes theism strongly correlated with irrational belief absolutes irrational belief absolutes strongly correlated with fanatism deletion theism correlated with fanaticism have neither said that all fanatism caused theism nor that all theism leads fanatism the point theism increases the chance becoming fanatic one could course argue that would fanatics tend towards theism for example but just have loook the times history when theism was the dominant ideology invalidate that conclusion that that the basic mechanism behind imo the influence stalin for that matter ayn rand invalidates your assumption that theism the factor considered bogus just said that theism not the only factor for fanatism the point that theism factor that your claim now back consider your argument useful the following belief strongly correlated with fanaticism therefore belief factor fanaticism true and utterly useless note this any belief not belief gods tiring say the least have backed read the first statement have read conspicuous its absence any evidence point the latter the fallacy the wrong analogy saying someone believes something hardly information about the person all saying someone theist holds much more information further the correlation between theists and fanatism higher than that between belief all and fanatism because the special features theistic belief truth blatant assertion evidence gullibility blind obedience authority lack scepticism and are all more reliable indicators and the really dangerous people the sources fanaticism are often none these things they are cynical manipulators the gullible who know precisely what they are doing that claim you have support please note that especially the field theism the leaders believe what they say you believe that you incredibly naive you frank dwyer are living dream world wonder there any base discussion left after such statement matter fact think you are ignorant human nature even when one starts with something one does not believe one gets easily fooled into actually believing what one says give you the benefit the doubt prove your statement the onus proof you sunshine what makes you think that theist leaders believe what they say especially when they say one thing and another say one thing closely followed its opposite the practice not restricted theism but there for anyone see almost epidemic this country just for instance harder for camel pass thru the eye needle why the catholic church such wealthy land owner why are there churches the square inch country now some brands theism and more precisely some theists tend fanaticism grant you tar all theists with this brush bigotry not reasoned argument and reads like warm for censorship and restriction religious freedom ever read animal farm that straw man and usually discussions with you one has repeat read what have written above not every theism leads fanatism and not all fanatism caused theism the point there correlation and comes from innate features theism some comes from features which some theism has common with some fanaticism your last statement simply isn implied what you say before because you trying sneak innate features all theism the word you groping for some bogus again not all theism fanatic however the rest already gives backup for the statement about the correlation about fanatism and theism and further the specialty other theistic beliefs allows them switch fanatism easily takes just nifty improvement the theology truth blatant assertion gullibility the way one them shit sherlock why not talk about gullibility instead theism since seems whole lot more relevant the case you have opposed the case you are trying make because there more about theism that the attraction gullible people causing the correlation and the whole discussion started that way the statement that theism meaningfully correlated fanatism which you challenged indeed did recall asked for evidence what the correlation which you speak and say that going forbid religion another your straw men interesting that you have nothing better offer said reads like warm that that because irrational and bogus tirade and has other use than creating nice them split the minds excitable people such are found either side church walls blah blah blah quite well aware that giving everyone their rights protects better from fanatics than the other way round course other people are always fanatics never oneself your wish slur all theists seems pretty fanatical quite nice see that you are actually implying connection between that argument and the rise fanatism far just another your assertions you can define irrational belief rational believe that reason always useful irrational belief belief that not based upon reason the latter has been discussed for long time with charley wingate one point that the beliefs violate reason often and another that process that does not lend itself rational analysis does not contain reliable information well there glaring paradox here argument that reason useful based reason would circular and argument not based reason would irrational which that bogus self reference not circular and since the evaluation usefulness possible within rational systems allowed oval still begging the question however and though that certainly allowed not rational and you claiming rational and all another your assertions proof evidence just claims hey learned from you did good the risk repeating myself and hearing had that before didn hear refutation before back deal with you can use reason demonstrate that reason useful someone who thinks reason crap won buy you see that unusually weak even for you the latter implies that proof depends their opinion somehow who does not accept that there are triangles won accept pythagoras wow that incredible insight don have prove them wrong their opinion possible show that their systems leave out useful information respectively claims unreliable even absurd statements information totally circular and totally useless their wish believe makes them believe things are judges their appeal and not their information makes you feel good when you believe that may good for them but contains zillions possible pitfalls from belief despite contrary evidence the bogus proofs they attempt truth blatant assertion seen many bogus proofs the non existence gods have their existence rational systems the way does not mean that every data has come from logical analysis the point that the evaluation the data does not contradict logic easily follows that such system does not allows evaluate its rational itself yes possible evaluate that rational system that not rational the fallacies that system but since the validity the axioms agreed upon that has little impact the possibility demon ala descartes this just doesn parse sorry far just matter consistency use ratiional arguments show that system consistent that theirs isn the evaluation the nor this predictions does not need rationality does not contradict however your argument silly proving mathematical statements needs mathematics and mathematics are therfore circular anybody else think godel was silly stream consciousness typing what that supposed mean the first part the second statement contains information because you don say what the beliefs are the beliefs are strong theism and strong atheism then your statement not general true the second part your sentence patently false counterexample axiomatic datum does not lend itself rational analysis but assumed contain reliable information regardless what process used obtain been speaking religious systems with contradictory definitions god here axiomatic datum lends itself rational analysis what you say here often refuted fallacy have look the discussion the axiom choice and further one can evaluate axioms larger systems out which they are usually derived exist derived you want that way further one can test the consistency and set axioms what you are trying say that some point people always wind saying this datum reliable for particular reason all example not dreaming nope there evidence for the trick that the choice axiomatic basis system difficult because the possibilities are interwoven one therefore chooses that with the least assumptions with assumptions that are necessary get information out the system anyway like see this alleged evidence one does not need define axioms order define evaluation method for usefulness the foundation laid how one feels all that not how one feels about see you have irrational beliefs but then fanatics never they compared the evidence theists have for their claims the strength their demands makes the whole thing not only irrational but antirational can agree with this until you are specific which theism say that all theism necessarily antirational requires proof which suspect you not have using the traditonal definition gods personal supernatural entities with objective effects this world usually connected morals and the way the world works imo any belief about such gods necessarily irrational that does not mean that people who hold them are principle opposed the exercise intelligence some atheists are also scientists for example they don use theism when doing science wouldn science please note that subjective data lend themselves scientific treatment well they just prohibit formulating them objective statements ergo nothing objective fair enough the affinity fanatism easily seen has true because believe nothing more than work hypothesis however the beliefs say they are more than work hypothesis don understand this can you formalise your argument person believes system becuase sounds nice that does not make true best work hypothesis however the content that true and that more than work hypothesis testing evaluating evidence for against therefore dismissed because already believed says wrong waste time not possible depending the further contents amalekites idolaters protestants are killed this can have interesting effects peculiar definition interesting but sure now show that belief gods entails the further contents which you speak why aren catholic neighbours out killing the protestants for example maybe they don believe maybe the conjunction asserts and jail kill dissenters that important and the belief gods entirely irrelevant certainly seems but then have axe grind here the example with your neighbours fallacy that your neighbours don says little about others and there were times when exactly that happened nope not fallacy just doesn the correlation you wish see and tell when not irrelevant why are such statements about amalekites and idolaters the holy books please note that one could edit them out when they are not relevant anymore because gods don err what does that say about that message excuse the holy books and how come had theists saying genocides ordered god are god the easiest way excuse anything and therefore highly attracting fanatics not mention the effect interpretation these fanatics can have the rest the believers happens again and again and again god neither the easiest way excuse anything nor the only way frank dwyer not hatching that odwyer sse from hens evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality article apr cnsvax uwec edu nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye writes reply frank uucp frank dwyer the problem for the objectivist determine the status moral truths and the method which they can established accept that such judgements are not reports what but only relate what ought see naturalistic fallacy then they cannot proved any facts about the nature the world this can avoided least two ways leaving the good undefined since anyone who claims that they not know what either lying out touch with humanity undeserving reply the good undefined undefinable but you require everyone that they know innately what right you are back subjectivism and begging the question see below defining the good solely terms evaluative terms ditto here evaluative statement implies value judgement the part the person making again incorrect and question begging see below this point the objectivist may talk self evident truths pretty perceptive that prof flew but can deny the subjectivist claim that self evidence the mind the beholder course denying that subject object true dichotomy please explain how this helps don see your argument don see yours seems rest the assertion that everything either subject object there nothing compelling about that dichotomy might just well divide the world into subject object event even seems more sensible causation for example event not subject object furthermore subject object were true dichotomy everything either subject object then that statement self evident truth not then all the mind the beholder according the relativist and hardly compelling add that the fact that the world can quickly shoved its entirety into the subjective category idealist solipsist argument and that have this perfectly good alternate set categories subject object event which can reduced subject object quality without any logical difficulty and why yes guess denying that self evident truths are all the mind the beholder not what left the claim that some moral judgements are true all nothing then moral judgements are true this thing that commonly referred nihilism entails that science value irrepective the fact that some people find useful how anyone arrives relativism subjectivism from this argument beats this makes sense either flew arguing that this where the objectivist winds not the subjectivist furthermore the nihilists believed nothing except science materialism revolution and the people referring ethical nihilism the subjectivist may well feel that all that remains that there are some moral judgements with which would wish associate himself hold moral opinion suggests not know something true but have preferences regarding human activity and those preferences should include terrorism that moral opinion not true likewise the preferences should include noterrorism that moral opinion not true why should one choose set preferences which include terrorisim over one which includes noterrorism reason this patently absurd and also not the position the subjectivist has been pointed out you already others ditch the strawman already and see reply mike cobb root message the thread societal basis for morality responded over there btw don intend this strawman but something logically entailed relativism really any ethical system where values are assumed unreal different say relativists say than relativism implies frank dwyer not hatching that odwyer sse from hens evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	free moral agency article minster york cjhs minster york writes are you saying that their was physical adam and eve and that all humans are direct decendents only these two human beings then who were cain and able wives couldn their sisters because didn have daughters were they non humans genesis and the days adam after begat seth were eight hundred years and begat sons and daughters felicitations chris stuart yeah but these were not the wives the wives came from nod apparently land being developed another set gods brian
alt.atheism	room for metaphor can and take religious writings metaphor for life this with all sorts fiction from beowolf deep space nine the idea not limit yourself one book screen out the good stuff from what you read and remember that all just story you sound buddist brian
alt.atheism	the universe and black holes was years article apr iastate edu iastate edu warren vonroeschlaub wrote article inn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes well suppose probe emitting radiation constant frequency was sent towards black hole got closer the event horizon the red shift would keep increasing the period would get longer and longer but would never stop observer would not observe the probe actually reaching the event horizon the detected energy from the probe would keep decreasing but wouldn vanish exp never quite reaches zero that kind what meant more precise given any observer any single position outside the event horizon would that observer ever any way able detect the probe having crossed the event horizon yes unless the observer rest with respect the singularity infinite distance away but observer close approach the will see the particle finite time peter don forget sing they say there heaven for those who will wait some say better but say ain rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints the sinners are much more fun only the good die young
alt.atheism	asimov stamp battin cyclops iucf indiana edu laurence gene battin writes apart from the suggestion that appeared the letters column skeptical inquirer recently has there been any further mention about possible asimov commemorative stamp this idea hasn been followed does anyone know what needs done get this happen think that its great idea should start petition something sure all the religious types would get snit due asimov atheism have any atheists stamps now mark schnitzius schnitzi eola ucf edu university central florida
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics article timmbake mcl timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes nah will encourage people learn about atheism see how little atheists have their sleeves whatever might have suspected actually quite riddle this god exist why earth should grovel why earth should give damm all what evidence you have that such creature exist deserves anything beyond mild admiration sheer hatred for what they have done the past whichever god you care pick that assuming any records their actions are correct religon offers bliss bubble self contained reality which seperate from the physical world any belief system can leave you such state and can drugs god are not requirement only you remove such useless tappestry can you build set morals build society upon that keep exterminating those who don believe converting them eric new viruses right life virus won allow you delete file regardless how old you attempt erase file requires you first see counselor about possible alternatives
alt.atheism	some thoughts article rekj darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes james felder spbach lerc nasa gov wrote logic alert argument from incredulity just because hard for you believe this doesn mean that isn true liars can very pursuasive just look koresh that you yourself cite this whole basis great many here rejecting the christian account things the words madalyn murrey hair face folks just silly why okay disbelieve because your incredulity you admit that fallacy bill suppose for the same reason that you not believe all the gods why should any any different use the same arguments dismiss koresh god tell then why you not believe that koresh the son god logic equally possible that koresh jesus reborn adda wainwright does dim atal llanw eczcaw mips nott mae sig werth
alt.atheism	death penalty was political atheists article rlyz darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes this fascinating atheists argue for abortion prove atheist doesn mean for against abortion defend homosexuality means population control obvious effect homosexuality non procreation that unlike your statement fact please prove that homosexuality defended means population control being atheist causes you hold these beliefs defend homosexuality because what people with their bodies none business defend the equal rights all humans you insist that the only values are biological define values prove your statement something contardictory cannot exist which this case means atheists suppose prove your statement electrons are waves electrons are particles believe both have physical proof both have proof god only ancient book that not indicative the existence being with omnipotence omnipresence and your own argument christians don exist would like understand how atheist can object war excellent means controlling population growth capital punishment sorry but the logic escapes and why just capital punishment what being questioned here the propriety killing punishment what the basis the ecomplaint first all your earlier statements have absolutely nothing with your question why did you post them show that athiests besides not existing your view are more humane than christians other religions secondly very much for the control population growth the logic that you cannot grasp indicates ignorance contraception but course this outlawed sometimes literally religion since can create more followers will die bill adda wainwright does dim atal llanw eczcaw mips nott mae sig werth
alt.atheism	you will all hell jsn jeremy scott noonan
alt.atheism	you will all hell article apr ncsu edu aiken news ncsu edu wayne nmi aiken writes jsn psuvm psu edu wrote you blashephemers you will all hell for not believing god prepared for your eternal damnation did someone leave their terminal unattended again holy temple mass slack ncsu edu used underwear consumption legal tender box bbs countries raleigh warning hoard pennies bob probably not the jesus freak post probably jsn psuvm penn state just loaded the hilt with bible bangers use there vomit and was the reason left they even had group try stop playing rock music the dining halls one year cuz they deemed satanic kampus krusade for khrist people run the damn place for the most part except the liberal arts departments they are the safe havens wdb rock music the dining
alt.atheism	some thoughts article therose pdx com alan olsen fidonet org alan olsen writes from alan olsen fidonet org alan olsen subject some thoughts date wed apr from house helios usq edu ron house newsgroups alt atheism organization university southern queensland bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes first want start right out and say that christian know shouldn get involved but bit deleted the book says that jesus was either liar was crazy modern day koresh was actually who said was rest rant deleted this standard argument for fundies can you spot the falicy the statement arguing from the assumption that jesus actually existed far they have not been able offer real proof that existance just thought necessary help defend the point that jesus existed guys jesus existed didnt then you have say that socrates didnt exist cuz like jesus has nothing from his hands that have survived only plato and others record his existance many others record jesus existance including the babylonian talmud sorry guys the argument that jesus may not have existed dead point now did whether was god whether there god completely different story however most them try using the very flawed writings josh mcdowell and others prove but those writers use very flawed sources they are real sources all some are not when will they ever learn real research instead believing the drivel sold the christian bookstores righto dan try this one with your cornflakes the book says that muhammad was either liar was crazy modern day mad mahdi was actually who said was some reasons why wouldn liar are follows who would die for lie wouldn people able tell was liar people gathered around him and kept doing many gathered from hearing seeing how his son law made the sun stand still call fool but believe did make the sun stand still niether was lunatic would more than entire nation drawn someone who was crazy very doubtful fact rediculous for example anyone who drawn the mad mahdi obviously fool logical people see this right away therefore since wasn liar lunatic must have been the real thing nice rebutal alan
alt.atheism	christian morality article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes the fact god could cause you believe anything wants you but think about for minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you because they wanted love you there difference between believing the existence entity and loving that entity god could show directly that exists and still have free choice about whether love him not why doesn kevin anthoney kax nott don believe anything you read sig files
alt.atheism	genocide caused theism evidence benedikt roseneau article horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes the information that invariant under your child being son daughter and singing about santa claus wasn your argument that there has more more than what more than assume which what exactly most the people debate disagree with premises hardly debate otherwise your favorite point that sense there has been challenged more than once when did you said good question and did not address addressed your caricature not favourite point needless say length previous outing and currently discussing with eric rescorla there little point responding the same points everywhere best give everyone the courtesy reply you still repeat that point curious since believe that was the first time ever made not that repetition would imply much more than your seeming inability understand you ask the same question give you the same answer especially when this case know the answer true best give everyone the courtesy reply but everyone making the same points and pushed for time then try respond what believe are the strongest formulations those points that doesn include your post tough this usenet and life tough all over since there great deal responses this isn always feasible best honestly answer questions put you drop out debates with some posters and continue with others you appear with the same issue every months and start the dicussion the beginning again only debated this issue twice and occasionally the first was response simon clippingdale positive assertion that disagreement about moral values inexorably acknowledges that morals are relative doesn now simon has dropped out the debate for some time take that mean that either busy bored with the topic certainly not accuse him dishonesty you can always understand what you say neither can understand you all the time usually one asks what the other side means usually one does usually you clear but sometimes you aren and ask you what you mean other times you seem get extremely uptight and feel that debating against line noise sometimes get tired and sometimes have other things rather again this usenet and life tough all over you going have deal with you starting get personally insulting may not even put your name the hat future that supposed threat that simple statement and assertion that not answerable those who offer baseless insults for example those who accuse lying about personal beliefs while also complaining that don answer their questions like that you what you sense evidence for the sensed there only everything would easy what almost everyone senses evidence for the sensed there because all intents and purposes there had that argument for one your claim that everyone senses not founded and you have been asked give evidence for often and then the correct statement would reason assume that there unless evidence against has been found have problem with the second statement have provided argument that almost everyone senses that freedom valuable the only cogent objection this came from jon livesey and was offered some other people too essentially that people disagree about fuzzy concepts such freedom good point and thinking about your trick say feel not right and many know therefore absolutely right neglects the possibility that these people consider right effect the same process restricting the claim its absoluteness those who have been subject that process other words refutes you make the ontological claim you have prove nonsense trick say feel that better than and does almost any disinterested person ask best evidence therefore that really better than subject the assumption that can establish our mutual satisfaction what mean and and that the resulting system values self consistent now get this really better idealisation fictional model the same sense that real material existence fictional model may may not correspond something true nonetheless useful assumption far more useful than the equally assumed relativist trick wit feel that better than and does almost any disinterested person ask however even one person disagrees that better than even one person dissents from mutually agreed definitions and then the case that better than for that person and nothing more can said say this useless because inexorably implies that supermajority seeking maximise cannot morally take action against someone seeking maximise terrorist that would claim that supermajority carefully considered morality would better than the terrorist which would course true but for ethical relativist claim that ethical relativism implies anything else simply weasel words and example compartmentalisation rival anything the world religion for similar argument sense morality subjective does not hurt things that are considered objectively wrong others you mean that you things that some others consider objectively wrong and turns out not the case for you course this possible neither evidence for subjectivism nor evidence against objectivism except sometimes pragmatic sense serves counterexample for that everything that subject judgements absolute and long you don provide evidence for that there something universally agreed upon there reason believe your hypothesis done this freedom with the proviso that still have answer jon objection that fuzzy concepts like freedom have objective meaning further order make morality absolute universal objective you would have show that independent humans the attributes above look quite misleading not really what evidence there that anything exists independently humans you hard pressed find any that isn logically equivalent when applied values analogous set premises would premise some people believe that objectively speaking the shortest route from house bar through the main entrance the estate and down the malahide road premise checked out and found that the shortest route from which much closer you would never deduce from these that there shortest route from house bar yet that seemingly how you derive your relativist claim using premises which are logically different morals are matter belief far the people still believe that the shortest way through the main entrance agreement belief here and order have analogy you would have show that there shortest way and that there method convince everyone that the shortest way indeed other words your analogy works only when one assumes that your premises are right the first place not fallacy and this were argument for objectivism you right isn though demonstration that the argument you gave neither argument against objectivism nor argument for relativism your gimmick assume the first place that values aren real and use this prove that values aren real other words you beg the question against frank dwyer not hatching that odwyer sse from hens evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	gulf war and peace niks article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes article apr bmerh bnr dgraham bmers bnr douglas graham writes actually rather like your idea perhaps the rest the world should have bombed maybe missiled washington when the invaded nicaragua grenada panama vietnam mexico hawaii any number other places wait minute doug know you are better informed than that the has never invaded nicaragua far know liberated grenada liberate the way invader describes invasion including not mistaken the iraqi liberation kuwait never invaded nicaragua only with more word games can you say send the marines you mean the word invaded some sort military action where cross someone border you are right out but normally invaded carries connotation attacking autonomous nation some nation invades the virgin islands would they invading the virgin islands the from this point view your score falls out mexico panama good word games you let the aggressor pick the words there scarcely ever been reprehensible military action what peace nik that somebody who doesn masturbate over guns ammo what supposed bad peace nik someone who believes peace all costs other words person who would have supported giving hitler not only austria and czechoslakia but poland too could have averted the war and one who would allow hitler wipe all all jews slavs and political dissidents areas controlled long left the rest alone that convenient technique much seen alt atheism define those who disagree with you according straw man extreme that matches virtually nobody supposed bad peace nik you ask well depends what your values are you value life over liberty peace over freedom then guess not but liberty and freedom mean more you than life itself you rather die fighting for liberty than live under tyrant heel then yes bad peace nik very noble and patriotic sure the fine young americans who carpet bombed iraqi infantry positions from over the horizon destroyed iraq sewer and water infrastructure from the safety the sky further who bulldozed other iraqi infantry into their trenches more importantly the commanders who ordered them were just thrilled risking death not risking much the defense the liberty well wealthy kuwaitis can have those oil fields under tyrant heel that tyrant antagonistic interests the problem with most peace niks they consider those who are not like them bad and unconscionable would not have any argument problem with peace nik they held their ideals and stayed out all conflicts issues especially those dealing with the national defense but they are not willing allow legitimately hold different point view having pigeon holed peace niks this context people who disagree with about the conduct the gulf war into peace all cost hitler supporting genocide abetting wimps you can now express righteous indignation when they refuse fit this mold and question the conduct the war legitimate terms how dare they they militate and many times resort violence all the name peace what rank hypocrisy yes hypocrisy indeed those violent peace niks care list example here all stop warmongers who are willing stand and defend our freedoms against tyrants and who realize that requires strong national defense wow instant nostalgia course peace nik itself cold war derogatory term equating those who promote pacifism with godless pinko communists yes indeed felt freedoms mightily threatened iraq jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality hfj horus mchp sni frank uucp writes deletia case anybody hadn noticed frank and are debating objective morality and seemingly hitting semantics secondly how can refute your definition can only point its logical implications and say that they seem contradict the usage the word objective other areas indeed your definition objective oxymoron for all have quibble with that belief other than that useless and that objective perfectly good word may that being non native english speaker misunderstood your usage objective and tried debate something you don assert apologies loss imagine what you really mean though how many ages can the universe have and still internally self consistent amazed was more than one how many different moral systems can different members society have indeed single individuals some cases and humanity still stick together begging the question people can have many opinions about the age the universe and humanity can still stick together you are saying that the universe has real age independent beliefs about why wrong point the age the universe has direct effect humanity sticking power the way the moral system society can have saying the universe has real age because see evidence for cosmology astronomy and say this age independent people opinions because know different people have lot different opinions the matter yet empirical tests consistently seem give roughly the same results the age the universe like most scientific facts can emirically verified through means that give the same result matter who performs the testing albeit there are error bars that may the largish side this assumes that the universe has real age any kind reality which doesn depend what think can see how does that put creationist the task performing the tests and calculations see makes blatant errors measuring calculating and the result the test will the same why should extreme biblical creationist give rat ass about the means which you speak because logically consistent empirical tests contradict their opinion those tests were just opinion then their own tests which would then their opinion would contradict mine even conducted said tests identical manner they don which take showing these tests have some validity beyond our opinion them heard way verify morality consistent way much less compute the errors the measurement care enlighten the same true pain but painkillers exist and can predicted work with some accuracy better than random guess map the activity nerves and neural activity you mean physical pain you have sharp point give you that but you still haven given way quantify morality wrote elsewhere that morality should hypotheses about observed value agree hypotheses however can change hold that there ultimate hypothesis morality towards which these changes could gravitate but that they could changed any way imaginable producing different results suitable for different tasks purposes moral system makes prediction will better that can tested better and worse are almost always defined the context moral system your prediction will always correct within that moral system what you need now objective definition good and bad wish you luck people ideas about the age object are not objective you can have any idea you like and can stop you universae and their ages another ballgame they are what they are and you dislike some detail them that problem with your opinion them sure assume objective reality and you get statements like this isn that what you doing when assuming objectively real morality besides what exactly provably wrong with statement claim that morality opinion ours and such subjective and individual wrong then some more less objectively real thing exists which you label objective morality can you back this positive claim existence can you back your positive claim above that because assumption make the same assumption about values the basis that there logical difference between the two and the empirical basis the two precisely the same claiming there objective morality suddenly positive claim besides think can lend some credence claim ponder different individuals both fully functional human beings and members society but yet with wildly different moral codes morality was objective least one should way off base but yet hir incorrect morality seems function fine how come for producing these individuals might easiest pick them from different societies say islamic one and some polynesian matrilineal system for example such still exist deletia testing for footballs desks now take look morality see anything please inform which way look and why look that particular way opposed some other get drift just look are you claiming never know what good means one thing good under some circumstances because wish achieve some goal for some reason other times wish something else and that thing longer clearly good all some things are hard make good because seldom ever wish achieve the sort goal mass murder would lead one into still the aztecs were doing fine until the spaniards wiped them out almost always know what good means sometimes even know why never claim this good thereby fixed stone immutable that simple matter proving the track record the scientific method think great and should applied values may completely wrong but that what conclude result quite amount thought yes too and tried thing two down that line doesn look good for objective values all disclaimer great young and insane
alt.atheism	asimov stamp article schnitzi eustis schnitzi eustis ucf edu mark schnitzius writes battin cyclops iucf indiana edu laurence gene battin writes apart from the suggestion that appeared the letters column skeptical inquirer recently has there been any further mention about possible asimov commemorative stamp this idea hasn been followed does anyone know what needs done get this happen think that its great idea should start petition something sure all the religious types would get snit due asimov atheism have any atheists stamps now more the point how long are atheists going insulted the disgraceful addition religious blah blah our money and out pledge what big noisy and has operation rescue
alt.atheism	mottos replace dog trust andrew hilmer hilmera storm orst edu wrote the risk beginning cascade start with possibly cheesy good uhmericun our shield freedom considering what our government has been doing for the past years perhaps this would more appropriate debt holy temple mass slack ncsu edu used underwear consumption legal tender box bbs countries raleigh warning hoard pennies bob
alt.atheism	islamic genocide article fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article ubl horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes article fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes noting that particular society this case the mainland has few religously motivated murders and few murders any kind says very little about whether inter religion murders elsewhere are religiously motivated but allows one conclude that there nothing inherent all religion for that matter catholicism and protestantism that motivates one kill motivates allows the christian bible says that one may kill under certain circumstances fact instructs one kill under certain circumstances say the majority people have moral system that instructs them kill under certain circumstances get your distinction between motivate and allow and agree that flavour theism allows atoricities then that indictment that theism but rather depends what the certain circumstances are when you talk about christianity islam then least your claims can understood when people general statement about theism that falls apart one could believe god which instructs one utterly harmless for part conclude that something else required also happen believe that that something else will work less well without religion any easy them will and what does religion supply not easy them not necessarily love thy neighbour does not supply them demolishes and definition religion broader than definition theism have explained insisting that even the murder four labourers chosen because they were catholics and who had nothing with the ira protestant extremists not religously motivated think what you are saying that you simply will not accept any murder being religiously motivated what about that guy who cut off someone head because believed was the devil incarnate that was religously motivated what about the protestant extremists who killed four catholic labourers that wasn religiously motivated not opinion they were doing because some obscure point theology then yes but since all protestants don this nor they elect extremists for them just too broad too say religion did this saying that the causes are far more complex than that take away the religious element and you still have the powerful motives revenge and misguided patriotism you know when most catholics and protestants worldwide say stop the killing one might listen that especially when you claim not read minds also the murders ensuing from the fatwa rushdie the inquisitions and the many religous wars what special about these exceptions isn this all just grab bag hoc excuses for not considering some other murders religiously motivated what the general principle behind all this the general principle that fairly clear least that religion the primary motivator enabler whatever these not nearly obvious what going when one looks apart from violence course not abstract argument northern irish protestants say don want absorbed into officially catholic country now what are supposed are supposed reply that only what you think you don want dwyer assures that matter what you say you want you really want something else you think the unionists wouldn mind being absorbed into non catholic country other than the course terrible thing lose mind maybe the word country there for more than just kicks certainly don believe that the unionists are for god think they wish maintain their position privilege still listening what they say and you are still telling your version what they think you read minds and don you speculated motives often enough and you don take statements own beliefs face value therefore your claim not read minds has credibility with sorry also note that you fail answer question just looks very much like you have axe grind especially you are indeed ignoring what most protestants say which stop the killing the people you refer are properly described unionists not protestants for their position privilege what that not religion based based politics bigotry and heartless extremism none these things are synonymous with religion though there certainly some overlap frank dwyer not hatching that odwyer sse from hens evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	asimov stamp article schnitzi eustis schnitzi eustis ucf edu mark schnitzius writes sure all the religious types would get snit due asimov atheism have any atheists stamps now due discussion this group some time ago the theists would more likely take asimov quote out context and paint him the biggest bible thumpin god fearin atheist hatin christian you ever laid eyes right there with einstein bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	more best rapture october what case you miss the rapture stay calm and not panic your natural reaction once you realize what has just occurred panic but absolutely useless now you had wanted get right with god before the rapture you could have but you chose wait now your only chance stay this earth and endure the end the tribulation but that shall endure unto the end the same shall saved matthew realize you are now living during the great tribulation the great tribulation seven year period starting from the time the rapture until christ second coming also know the time jacob israel trouble jere and daniel seventieth week dan this period will unparalleled trouble and horror iii gather many bibles you can and hide them soon after the antichrist becomes the leader the european community the revived roman empire bibles will confiscated and owning bible will tantamount treason the bible however will your most valuable possession during the tribulation read the bible like you have never read before your life since all your bibles may confiscated even you are careful imperative that you read the word until you memorize whole passages and can quote them especially important read daniel luke matthew revelation and amos for these books describe the events you can expect unfold before you pray like you have never prayed before your life pray until the power god comes strongly upon you pray and pray and pray only reading the word and praying will you gain the spiritual strength able withstand the torture you may have endure for the sake christ not take the mark any cost even fit means you and your loved ones die martyrs after the antichrist becomes the leader the european community will institute world economic system designed that you cannot buy sell eat unless you take his mark the number his name money will useless and causes all both small and great rich and poor free and slave receive mark their right hand their foreheads and that one may buy sell except one who has the mark the name the beast the number his name here wisdom let him who has understanding calculate the number the beast for the number man his number revelation the antichrist will implement the greatest slaughter all humanity think the various ways people have been tortured and killed the past such the holocaust maybe the crusades you cannot even imagine the horror that will take place under the antichrist rule will much worse than anything history matt saw under the altar the souls those who had been slain for the word god and for the testimony which they held and white robe was given each them and was said them that they should rest little while longer until both the number the fellow servants and their brethren who would killed they were was completed revelation his targets will jews and christians who not worship his image take the mark their forehead right hadn and saw the souls those who had been beheaded for their witness jesus and for the word god who had not worshiped the beast his image and had not received his mark their foreheads the hands revelation will use every form torture and humiliation order force you renounce christ nor will hesitate use your loved ones against you even your children torturing and killing them front you that you will tempted take the mark you take the mark worship the antichrist his image however you will consigned the second death which the lake fire sung about eloquently johnny cash you cannot redeemed better endure torture for short while and gain eternal life then sic endure eternal torment the ring lake fire anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark his forehead his hand himself shall also drink the wine the wrath god which poured out full strength into the cup his indignation sic shall tormented with fire and brimstone the presence the holy angels and the presence the lamb revelation and probably the presence season ticket holders special hats given the first the stadium vii set plan motion for survival although you may not able hide from the antichrist government until the end the tribulation all the time you gain hiding important for your spiritual growth and strengthening since only those who are extremely strong christ can suffer and die for his sake the first thing move out the city and into rural mountainous area for the antichrist control will come last the least populated areas take good radio with you that you can stay attuned events and discern the time schedule the tribulation you can see the weather map heavy currents tribulation will sweep into our area daybreak expect delays outbound and perhaps school closings store water and food because you will not able purchase anything without the mark water lakes and streams will polluted radioactive waste from nuclear warfare and will eventually turn into blood get good water filter bring different types clothing for all seasons well flashlights batteries generators and first aid supplies short learn how survive and live off the land the pioneers did viii trust one there will secret agents everywhere spying for the antichrist government the lookout perot supporters take note watch for the antichrist important realize who the antichrist and what for will deceive many into thinking that great world leader who will bring peace and prosperity world hungry for can infer from daniel certain characteristics this man popular during the first three and half years the tribulation will dominate the airwaves will physically appealing highly intelligent with christ like charisma and personality international politician military tactician and economic expert his word will peace will make treaty with the jews which will break after three and half years will have such supernatural power that mortal wound his head will healed even the very elect will deceived you not pray and read the bible you too will deceived dominate the airwaves perhaps howard stern rush limbaugh the antichrist will have companion the false prohphet sic who will make image the likeness the antichrist and cause speak all who refuse worhsip sic the image will killed the final three and half years will absolutely insane with demonized spirits everywhere not give hope the seven years tribulation will end with the triumphant return christ the antichrist will defeated steadfast and endure and you will rewarded greatly heaven start reading the bible and praying fervently now the salvation your sould depends upon determine that come what may you will not take the mark worship the antichrist you still have chance saved remain saved but this time you will have faithful unto death may god find you ready the hour his glorious return mike cluff christianity stupid ubvms mike luick ubvms give negativland language perception laboratory bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	are atoms real article news rich bnr bcash crchh nosubdomain nodomain brian cash writes petri and mathew your discusion the reality atoms interesting but would seem that you are verging the question anything real that since observation not reliable how can say that anything real don think this was the intention the original question since you now define out the word real that nothing can meet its criteria just thought brian rainbows and shadows are real they are not objects they are phenomenon interesting question would atoms are objects classical phenomenon neo quantum what been following this train talk and the question dismissing atoms being some sense not real leaves uneasy seems implied that obseve only the effects and therefore the underlying thing not necessarily real the tree outside window this category observe the light which bounces off not the tree itself the observation indirect but more than observations have made atoms also what about observations and experiments that have been routinely done with individual atoms thinking particular atom trapping experiments and tests fundamental quantum mechanics such the quantum zeno effect where individual atom studied for long period time some the attempts quantum mechanical arguments were not very satisfying either one has carefull about making such arguments without solid technical background the field what read seemed little confused quite red herring anyway the purpose public debate make the audience think worked after doing willing try defend the following assertion anyone cares atoms are real trees and are real the ussual every day sense the word real
alt.atheism	free moral agency article kmr cwru edu kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes article voinnr lynx unm edu cfaehl vesta unm edu chris faehl writes the myth which refer the convoluted counterfeit athiests have created make religion appear absurd you don need any counterfeit athiest myth make religion appear absurd you need only read any friendly christian bill conner posts jim halat halat bear com bear stearns whatever doesn kill you will only serve annoy you nyc speak only for myself
alt.atheism	some thoughts article apr mks com mike mks com mike brookbank writes article apr mac macalstr edu acooper mac macalstr edu writes article bissda saturn wwc edu bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes die for lie wouldn people able tell was liar light yesterday events waco texas guess the answer your questions are very obvious you think waco just one example think back jonestown where more than people died for lie deletions correction think was also contrary earlier belief now widely accepted that not all committed suicide but were actually killed the end they did die for lie but some not out conviction alone thought try make this point clear disclaimer the opinions expressed this posting are mine solely and not represent employer any way karner aix technical support karner austin vnet ibm com
alt.atheism	islam and sufism was move the islam discussions short reply kent sandvik post remarking how strange that somehow sufism related islam him they seem quite different one really understands islam not strange that sufism associated with fact sufism general seen the inner dimension islam one the roots the word islam submission islam denotes submission god sufism the most complete submission god imaginable annihilating oneself god not sufi the sufi path but have read lot and recently have been discussing number things with others who are the sufi path fred rice darice yoyo monash edu
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism apr nott eczcaw mips nott wainwright writes article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes great respect love for particular person does not equal form theism fred rice darice yoyo monash edu hmm what about jesus sure person could have great respect for jesus and yet atheist having great respect for jesus does not necessarily mean that one has follow the christian muslim interpretation his life fred rice darice yoyo monash edu
alt.atheism	atheism survey replied this query via mail but think there are some issues that are worth discussing public mta mtabbott unix amherst edu wrote doing research atheism part which involves field research here the net the following survey directed towards all readers this group intended get data about the basis atheistic belief would recommend you take look your dictionary alt atheism faq files notice that atheism not belief system and what common all atheists not belief but lack belief deities cannot imagine how anyone could research atheism without paying careful attention this issue first all tried structure questions that can answered variety ways with varying amounts detail possible give succinct answers most everything but there enough here keep most you typing for hours sure imho this poor method any real survey although sure the replies might keep you amused for hours also tend use lot anthropological buzzwords like belief system although know some you might contend that you don have any beliefs but are skeptical towards everything understand but you know what mean think such buzzwords abbreviations for the rather unweildy phrases required get the precise idea across not know what you mean you are surveying our individual philosophies fine but that not strictly atheism atheism not just another godless version the theistic explanations for life the universe and everything not belief system and could hardly called philosophical system once more atheism characterised lack belief deities not twist the meaning assume that have some kind philosophy all agree some comments your questions what contact with other atheists have you had before and after and during your conversion atheism certainly your involvement with alt atheism counts how have net discussions affected your beliefs would also like hear more about this have been able convert anyone are you convinced that your beliefs were acquired through wholly rational means proofs the non existence god etc was perhaps least part through other means alienation from mainstream religion etc this question contains contradiction terms beliefs cannot acquired rationally they could they would not beliefs you also seem have rather strange ideas how people become atheists those who are alienated from religion not necessarily become atheists they just think very little about religion seems requires considerable time honest inquiry find out that religions are actually intellectually dishonest virtual realities those who have never had beliefs will certainly find this question quite odd how can lack belief acquired when did acquire lack belief the easter bunny did believe santa though what extent you feel you understand the universe through your beliefs what phenomena the universe and human existence anything from physical phenomena the problem the existence evil human affairs you feel are adequately dealt with your beliefs and where are they lacking explanatory method this question does not make any sense since atheism does not deal with these issues not worldview philosophy belief system sigh why haven seen good well thought survey the usenet for three years and what the point doing surveys the net anyway just abstract some opinions petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics the truth pihatie finou oulu physics the rule oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu chemistry the game
alt.atheism	theism and fanatism was islamic genocide article dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes article horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes theism strongly correlated with irrational belief absolutes irrational belief absolutes strongly correlated with fanatism deletion theism correlated with fanaticism have neither said that all fanatism caused theism nor that all theism leads fanatism the point theism increases the chance becoming fanatic one could course argue that would fanatics tend towards theism for example but just have loook the times history when theism was the dominant ideology invalidate that conclusion that that the basic mechanism behind imo the influence stalin for that matter ayn rand invalidates your assumption that theism the factor considered bogus just said that theism not the only factor for fanatism the point that theism factor that your claim now back consider your argument useful the following belief strongly correlated with fanaticism therefore belief factor fanaticism true and utterly useless note this any belief not belief gods gullibility blind obedience authority lack scepticism and are all more reliable indicators and the really dangerous people the sources fanaticism are often none these things they are cynical manipulators the gullible who know precisely what they are doing that claim you have support please note that especially the field theism the leaders believe what they say you believe that you incredibly naive now some brands theism and more precisely some theists tend fanaticism grant you tar all theists with this brush bigotry not reasoned argument and reads like warm for censorship and restriction religious freedom ever read animal farm that straw man and usually discussions with you one has repeat read what have written above not every theism leads fanatism and not all fanatism caused theism the point there correlation and comes from innate features theism some comes from features which some theism has common with some fanaticism your last statement simply isn implied what you say before because you trying sneak innate features all theism the word you groping for some gullibility the way one them shit sherlock why not talk about gullibility instead theism since seems whole lot more relevant the case you have opposed the case you are trying make and say that going forbid religion another your straw men interesting that you have nothing better offer said reads like warm that that because irrational and bogus tirade and has other use than creating nice them split the minds excitable people such are found either side church walls define irrational belief rational believe that reason always useful irrational belief belief that not based upon reason the latter has been discussed for long time with charley wingate one point that the beliefs violate reason often and another that process that does not lend itself rational analysis does not contain reliable information well there glaring paradox here argument that reason useful based reason would circular and argument not based reason would irrational which that bogus self reference not circular and since the evaluation usefulness possible within rational systems allowed oval still begging the question however and though that certainly allowed not rational and you claiming rational and all the risk repeating myself and hearing had that before didn hear refutation before back deal with you can use reason demonstrate that reason useful someone who thinks reason crap won buy you see your argument silly proving mathematical statements needs mathematics and mathematics are therfore circular anybody else think godel was silly the first part the second statement contains information because you don say what the beliefs are the beliefs are strong theism and strong atheism then your statement not general true the second part your sentence patently false counterexample axiomatic datum does not lend itself rational analysis but assumed contain reliable information regardless what process used obtain been speaking religious systems with contradictory definitions god here axiomatic datum lends itself rational analysis what you say here often refuted fallacy have look the discussion the axiom choice and further one can evaluate axioms larger systems out which they are usually derived exist derived you want that way further one can test the consistency and set axioms what you are trying say that some point people always wind saying this datum reliable for particular reason all example not dreaming compared the evidence theists have for their claims the strength their demands makes the whole thing not only irrational but antirational can agree with this until you are specific which theism say that all theism necessarily antirational requires proof which suspect you not have using the traditonal definition gods personal supernatural entities with objective effects this world usually connected morals and the way the world works imo any belief about such gods necessarily irrational that does not mean that people who hold them are principle opposed the exercise intelligence some atheists are also scientists for example the affinity fanatism easily seen has true because believe nothing more than work hypothesis however the beliefs say they are more than work hypothesis don understand this can you formalise your argument person believes system becuase sounds nice that does not make true best work hypothesis however the content that true and that more than work hypothesis testing evaluating evidence for against therefore dismissed because already believed says wrong waste time not possible depending the further contents amalekites idolaters protestants are killed this can have interesting effects peculiar definition interesting but sure now show that belief gods entails the further contents which you speak why aren catholic neighbours out killing the protestants for example maybe they don believe maybe the conjunction asserts and jail kill dissenters that important and the belief gods entirely irrelevant certainly seems but then have axe grind here frank dwyer not hatching that odwyer sse from hens evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	christian morality article ousrvr oulu kempmp phoenix oulu petri pihko writes dan schaertel dps nasa kodak com wrote love god just much she loves she wants seduce she know what but she did you would probably consider rape simple logic arguments are folly you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools those who tried trick him with logic our ability reason just spec creation yet some think the ultimate you rely simply your reason then you will never know more than you now your argument the type you know once you try yet there are many atheists who have sincerely tried and believed for many years but were eventually honest enough admit that they had lived virtual reality obviously there are many christians who have tried and believe learn you must accept that which you don know what does this mean learn you must accept that you don know something right but learn you must accept something don know why this not the way prefer learn unwise merely swallow everything you read suppose write book telling how the great invisible pink unicorn has helped daily problems would you accept this since you can know whether true not one asks you swallow everything fact jesus warns against but let ask you question you beleive what you learn history class for that matter anything school mean just what other people have told you and you don want swallow what others say right the life death and resurection christ documented historical fact much anything else you learn how you choose what believe and what not could argue that george washington myth never lived because don have any proof except what told however all the major events the life jesus christ were fortold hundreds years before him neat trick there way get into sceptical heart you can not say you have given sincere effort with the attitude you seem have you must trust not just church and participate activities were you ever willing die for what you believed
alt.atheism	alt atheism faq constructing logical argument here suggestion for the logical argument faq don think covered though the fallacy probably has better name than the one used how about mathew inconsistency and counterexample this occurs when one party points out that some source information takes stand which inconsistent with there are two variations which either mutually agreed premise else stand elsewhere from the same source the second party fallaciously responds saying see the source really does say right here this reply does not refute the allegation inconsistency because does not show that the source only says example the first type the koran says unbelievers should treated these ways can both agree these are immoral the koran clearly says this other passage that unbelievers are not treated that way example the second type there are two biblical creation stories you wrong since the bible clearly describes the creation description the first day after christmas truelove served leftover turkey the second day after christmas truelove served turkey casserole that she made from leftover turkey days deleted flaming turkey wings pizza hut commercial and tlu gic bait ken arromdee arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu
alt.atheism	religion cause was islamic authority over women bill conner bil okcforum osrhe edu writes stuff deleted don have make outrageous claims about religion affecting and effecting history for the purpsoe all have point out that many claims made here are wrong and nothing validate atheism bill you seem have erroneously assumed that this board has its sole purpose the validation atheism doesn this board used discuss atheism philosophy share posters experiences regarding atheism debunk various theisms and theism whole share resources relating atheism and even socialize with others with similar views and course with the number theists who come here preach also used argue the case for atheism time have made any statement that religion was the sole cause anything what have done point out that those who make that kind claim are mistaken usually deliberately you want accuse people lying please directly the phrase deliberately mistaken rather oxymoronic credit religion with the awesome power dominate history misunderstand human nature the function religion and course history believe that those who distort history this way know exaclty what they doing and only for affect the two forms theism most often discussed here these days are christianity and islam both these claim make their followers into good people and claim that much benefit humanity has been accomplished through their faiths imho they are right the american friends service committee quaker catholic relief services bread for the world salvation army soup kitchens and mother theresa spring mind can someone with more knowledge islam supply the names some analagous islamic groups when mother theresa claims that her work outgrowth her christianity believe her her form theism ascribes her deity such benevolence toward humanity that would wrong not care for those need the point that such philosophy does have the power change the behavior individuals widespread enough can change societies the same works for the horrors history claim that christianity had little with the crusades the inquisition deny the awesome power that comes from faith absolute what seems you are doing twisting the reasonable statement that religion was never the solitary cause any evil into the unreasonable statement that religion has had evil impacts history that absurd scott sauyet ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu
alt.atheism	books edm twisto compaq com mccreary writes while the topic books has anyone else noticed that paine the age reason hard find been wanting pick copy for while but not bad enough mail order noticed though that none the bookstores seem carry thought this was supposed classic what the deal actually got entire list books written various atheist authors and went the largest bookstore area pittsburgh and couldn find any them what section the bookstore you find these kinds books you have look alternative bookstore for most them any help would appreciated can send you the list you want thanks nanci you know and are sure the author this quote please send email andrew cmu edu the fate the country does not depend what kind paper you drop into the ballot box once year but what kind man you drop from your chamber into the street every morning
alt.atheism	college atheists nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye writes read article about poll done students the ivy league schools which was reported that third the students indentified themselves atheists this lot higher than among the general population wonder what the reasons for this discrepancy are because they are more intelligent younger this the wave the future would guess that probably has something with the ease which ideas and thoughts are communicated college campus the real world easier for theists well people general really lock themselves into little bubble where they only see and talk those people who are the same opinion they are college you are constantly surrounded and have interact with people who have different ideas about life the universe and everything much much harder build bubble around yourself keep everyone else ideas from reaching you world where theists are forced contend with and listen atheists and theists other religions some are bound have change their beliefs over four years there nowhere run david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire this patently absurd but whoever wishes become philosopher must learn not frightened absurdities bertrand russell nanci you know and are sure the author this quote please send email andrew cmu edu the fate the country does not depend what kind paper you drop into the ballot box once year but what kind man you drop from your chamber into the street every morning
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article apr nic csu net davec silicon csci csusb edu dave choweller wrote article apr bnr rashid writes stuff deleted the point post was that rushdie was not being condemned solely for the words his book although this was certainly contributing factor was the whole series actions rushdie and his publishers following the publication the book and the initial media spotlight placed the book that large part led the fatwa the kind fatwa levelled against rushdie not lightly placed and there are any number anti islamic writers both within and outside the islamic world who have not had fatwas made against them here someone who adds fuel explosive situation might charged with incitement riot people die the rioting the charges against him might become even more serious how can rushdie blamed for the deaths people who are demonstrating against him the deaths should blamed the people who dealt with the demonstrations the demonstrators themselves they were violent what lengths will you justify this barbaric behaviour against rushdie once the rushdie situation exploded into the media the muslim voice the matter the book was effectively restricted short video bytes showing the dramatic highlights muslim demonstrations for every twenty newspaper magazine articles interviews etc supporting rushdie there would appear one muslim voice this person was usually selected based how dramatic and incoherent was not his knowledge islam the situation the time this approx twenty one ratio continued throughout the escalation the crisis with rushdie the central spotlight the man the moment the valiant defender everyman right free speech decoupled from responsibility aside interesting that while the hue and cry about freedom speech went some books defaming certain ethnic and religious groups continued banned here was felt that they injured the sensibilities these groups and presented false image which could promote feelings hate towards these groups for muslims this kind double standard was annoying rushdie saw this spotlight golden opportunity lash out organized islam and did with admirable verbal skill the only kind islam which rushdie finds palatable what calls secular islam islam separated from qur prophet god its legislation and most importantly from any intrusion into any political arena fine rushdie made his views known the muslim made their anger his book known the scale the whole affair erupted into global proportions was this time already political situation affecting governments well individuals the situation was serious one with far reaching political implications the centre this turmoil was rushdie throwing fuel the fire engaged personal crusade that made him oblivious any sense caution now you may feel that the person the centre worldwide storm such this has responsibility has reason exercise restraint any kind has obligation perhaps step back momentarily out the spotlight till matters calm down perhaps you even feel that justified boldly defying the anger all those who dare take umbrage his literary work matter what insult they find within perhaps you see him kind secular heroic knight mounted the his media steed doing battle with the dragon islamic fundamentalism well khomeini saw him disingeneous author who grew muslim atmosphere knew well what muslim hold dear who wrote book which mischievously uses certain literary conventions slander insult and attack islam and its most notable personalities who when faced with situation that became worldwide crisis continued with his mischief the world stage the media who even after people were injured and killed because the magnitude and emotion the situation continued his mischief instead having the good sense desist khomeini saw the crisis mischief making grand scale mischief making that grew scale the scale the crisis enlarged the deaths muslims around the world and rushdie continued media mischief even after this was the triggering factor that seemed decide khomeini putting stop the mischief the person the centre all these events was rushdie was the source the continuing mischief all media support government support was just that support the source was rushdie and his publishers who were nothing short ecstatic the publicity and were very happy see rushdie constantly the media the islamic rulings that deal with people who engage this kind grand scale mischief making was applied rushdie you attempts justification are not doing the image islam any good have made attempts justification only explanation image the chief concern muslim apologists for islam and for rushdie muslims willingly relegated themselves becoming sub culture within larger secular culture such that the secular principles and laws had precedence over the laws islam then have doubt that islam would then thought have good image principally because would and large reflect the secular image good image usually means more like your attempts totally exonerating rushdie reflect exactly the attitude that resulted the polarization brought about the crisis iran the situation was monitored for many months when rushdie kept adding fuel the flames through the free worldwide voice that the media gave him the situation was monitored more seriously when even after many deaths occured worldwide rushdie still did not desist the fatwa was pronounced when behaving like total jerk endangers lives and the jerk sees this and still insists his right behave like total jerk has the rug jerked out from under him the muslims didn make such big fuss over the book like issuing death threats and killing publishers one would have heard the fatwa came later much later rushdie didn mouth off much the media the fuss would have died down one would have been killed fatwa would have been passed the whole episode would have fizzled away
alt.atheism	who has read rushdie the satanic verses article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes yes the qur discusses this point several ways some them quite directly for example says that god were appear them there would need for faith and belief the evidence would definitive excellent why doesn she appear little weak the blind faith department besides she doesn even really need appear how about say little tip something like put your all the the dog races perhaps dream vision how know that muhammed didn just out into the desert and smoke something would person who was high write well and with such consistency afraid don know arabic have only read translations wouldn know were well written consistent though one thing the quran not and have you read arabic besides some best writing has been done under the influence shall say consciousness altering substances and how know that the scribes dictated the quran didn screw put their own little verses they have very good without destroying the beauty and literary quality text arabic text yes how know they weren very good again assuming that the quran beautfully written and why can muhammed marry more than four women when other muslim allowed muhammad did not exceed the number after the revelation regulating the number wives man could marry but before retract this point although might still say that once knew should have done something about although think the biggest insult islam that the majority its followers would want suppress book sight unseen the say some holy guy not mention murder the author agree but really true that this the case haven interviewed all muslims about this would really like this were false but can take your say what are your sources another case judging principles the basis those who claim follow them what other basis have judge system especially when can get consistent picture what islam really believe khomeini the imam the mosque mecca perhaps the guy new jersey perhaps you say should only the quran whose translation and what about things like and wherever you find idolators kill them shamim mohamed uunet noao cmcl arizona shamim shamim arizona edu take this cross and garlic here mezuzah jewish page the koran muslim and zen buddhist you your own member the league for programming freedom write lpf uunet net
alt.atheism	genocide caused theism evidence saw hour show pbs the other day about the history the jews appearently the cursades religious war agianst the muslilams the holy land sparked the widespread persecution muslilams and jews europe among the supporters the persiecution were none other than martin luther and the vatican later hitler would use luthers writings justify his own treatment the jews genocide caused theism evidence
alt.atheism	societal basis for morality article fzd news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes what basis can say that the actions another society per hitler comment are wrong ultimately rests with personal opinion opinion why does majority make right the question doesn make sense maybe would better ask what makes democracy better than for example totalitarian regim dan
alt.atheism	high times comin verdant ucs umass edu sol lightman writes theory though yet unproven that this due simple envy its not its due the fact that there are two issues here religion and religion religion personal belief system religion memetic virus people loudly proclaiming their beliefs are crossing the border from religion religion people that want save others are firmly entrenched religion memoids rule not practicing religion shut the fuck unless you discuss politely this means that the motive behind the conversation not only your self gratifying wish spread the word religion something that ultimately comes from within person and reflects their value judgements religion something that contracted from others and does not reflect the persons value judgements other than perhaps think brainwashed today religion drug believe you can discuss religion however the post that started this off was not intented discussion was more proclamation someones religion you think talking about censorship that closeminded you haven understood this don have any problem with the discussion religion its just religion that can stand
alt.atheism	high times comin rubble leland stanford edu adam heath clark writes seems very large part christianity based the notion that the right religion and that just about any other way looking the universe flat out wrong the old days had the inquisition and the burning heretics now have pat buchanan trying start some cultural war because can stand live the same country all these other non god fearing people its survival trait there are only fixed number resources people for religions inhabit the doctrines intolerance and not using birth control are devices whereby the meme the capital religion christianity gains larger share the population than its memetic competitors
alt.atheism	christian morality article apr dcs warwick simon dcs warwick simon clippingdale writes dan concerned that you are grave spiritual danger because your stubborn refusal love and accept into your heart the mighty invisible pink unicorn nice parody deleted shall pray for you fact brother cast out the demon which binds you the name the mighty invisible pink unicorn dan you must have faith then you better pray for too because believe that the mighty invisibile pink unicorn does not exist one being cannot both pink and invisible the demon should that daemon that keeps from believing and saving soul named logic bill mayne
alt.atheism	who has read rushdie the satanic verses article optima arizona edu sham arizona edu shamim zvonko mohamed writes article innknk bozo dsinc com perry dsinc com jim perry writes anyway since seem the only one following this particular line discussion wonder how many the rest the readership have read this book what are your thoughts read when first came out and liked the time still sorta kinda thought myself muslim and couldn see what the flap was all about thank you now know least that though may drugs least not the only one the writing style was little hard get used but was well worth the effort coming from similar background rushdie grew bombay muslim family and moved england grew new delhi made strong impression and used many the strange constructions indian english the yaar the end sentence butbutbut the occasional hindi phrase etc yes this took some getting used course not having indian connection knowledge hindi etc this was not trivial for did have thanks the wonders the net glossary satanic verses posted rec arts books vijay raghavan which explains lot the indian english constructions indian culture references even the islamic references jahilia submission the context the satanic verses incident etc what have only covers the first couple hundred pages but helped get into the flow the novel can mail this anyone interested anyone has portions after part they exist like get those jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours
alt.atheism	burden proof aurora engr latech edu ray engr latech edu bill ray writes make statement that god exists loves etc but way insist that you believe does that place burden proof upon you insist that god doesn exist does that place burden proof upon you give proofs only give testimony beliefs will respond proofs that you attempt disprove beliefs what your reaction people who claim they were abducted space aliens some these people say was abducted experimented etc insist that these aliens don exist the burden proof placed these people can give hard facts but can give lot testimony back their beliefs replace space aliens with elvis big foot blue unicorns and have larger percentage the population than like think about sometimes wonder reality really different experience for everone
alt.atheism	rawlins debunks creationism john king king ctron com posts whopping one liner the modern theory evolution inadequate that deserves treated matter faith francis hitching have few points make about the above posting science not based and does not consist quotes from either real alleged experts critical reasoning evidence and possible experimentation are necessary creationists frequently display massive confusion about this merely quoting both non experts and experts alike some the latter quotes are fact false and steadfastly refusing follow any kind rigorous scientific procedure this strongly suggests that their claims completely lack any scientific merit and they are aware this fatal deficiency course you may not actually creationist and this may not your real intent you have failed identify hitching and the surrounding context his statement why that hitching scientific illiterate then the quote would merely display his profound ignorance evolutionary biology creationists are frequently known quote real scientists out context and fabricate statements that they subsequently attribute legitimate scientists course you may not actually creationist and this may not your real intent evidence supporting the alleged inadequacies the modern theory evolution would much more powerful argument than contextless one line quote from unidentified nobody also important note that disproving biological evolution does not automatically prove some alternate claims any more that disproving that the earth shaped like hockey puck proves that hyperbolic paraboloid creationists seem rather fond diving head first into this logical fallacy course you may not actually creationist and this may not your real intent since evolution central virtually all modern science attack evolution either the fact the theory really represents attack science while the theory will unquestionably continue evolve the fact evolution will not ever away creationists lost the battle long ago more than years fact but are simply too willfully ignorant and irrational acknowledge the fact course you may not actually creationist and you may not really that ignorant warren kurt vonroeschlaub iastate edu asks neither nor webster has ever heard francis hitchings who like hitchings not found webster francis hitchings scientifically illiterate creationist perhaps just playing the part one who wrote quite ignorant book attacking evolution the neck the giraffe that publication quotes creationist jean sloat morton using the standard invalid creationist probability argument that proteins could not have formed chance thus not only confusing abiogenesis with evolution the two are quite independent but also concluding with non sequitur the conclusion does not follow hitchings also misquotes richard lewontin effort support creationism hitchings book was reviewed national park service ecologist david graber the los angeles times and repeated the oregonian the article was titled giraffe sticks scientific neck out too far excerpts include francis hitchings not biologist goes after darwin like mark antony after brutus flips from scientific reasoning mysticism and pseudo science with the sinuosity snake oil salesman suggests mystical organizing principle life using the similarity organs different creatures evidence sic note that the last statement above actually evidence for evolution not against john king quoting from this reviewed book wouldn surprise much also interesting that king had nothing add only posted quote uucp uunet tektronix sail mikec cranford uunet tektronix sail labs tek com mikec principal troll arpa mikec sail labs tek com relay net resident skeptic csnet mikec sail labs tek com teklabs tektronix
alt.atheism	genocide caused theism evidence article dvi mailer fsu edu dekorte dirac scri fsu edu stephen dekorte writes saw hour show pbs the other day about the history the jews appearently the cursades religious war agianst the muslilams the holy land sparked the widespread persecution muslilams and jews europe among the supporters the persiecution were none other than martin luther and the vatican later hitler would use luthers writings justify his own treatment the jews genocide caused theism evidence heck remember reading quote luther something like jews should shot like deer and course much catholic doctrine for centuries was extremely anti semitic are you sure that your truth and your justice are worth more than the truths and justices other centuries simone beauvoir where there certainty that rises above all doubt and withstands all critique karl jaspers rice university will rice college
alt.atheism	political atheists article vinnkn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes kcochran nyx edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes wait are talking about ethics morals here the distinction important yes well make ethics deal with individuals morals deal with groups well our moral system seems mimic the natural one number ways please describe these number ways detail then explain the any contradictions that may arise just look how human behavior mimics animal behavior couldn even begin list all the similarities many the dissimilarities are due our high intelligence please describe these number ways detail then explain any contradictions that may arise don know what wrong possible for humans survive for long time the wild yes possible but difficult humans are social animal and that cause our success define difficult don understand what you don understand the sentence yes possible but difficult humans survived the wild for hundreds thousands years noted earlier lack mating such abstinence homosexuality isn really destructive the system worst neutral every member the species was homosexual this wouldn destructive the survival the species most animals that exhibit homosexuality are actually bisexual answer the question keith homosexuality detrimental the survival the species kcochran nyx edu tsakc thoughts posts ideas responsibility beer pizza
alt.atheism	bayesian statistics theism and atheism article apr dcs warwick simon dcs warwick simon clippingdale writes article quei horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes article apr dcs warwick simon dcs warwick simon clippingdale writes write imagine that alterian dollars turn your bank account every month suppose further that this money being paid you your big hearted alterian benefactor bug alterian atm let suppose that this true dichotomy trouble alterius different universe that observations alterius are possible except for the banks you couldn possibly afford now let examine the case for there evidence whatsoever that there any such thing big hearted alterian benefactor however exists not exists the grounds that lack evidence for evidence against when have partition like that dismiss hypothesis turning therefore also find evidence support that hypothesis the same grounds before dismiss hypothesis the problem with this that have dismissed all the possible hypotheses and even though know construction that the money arrives every month have proven that can because have dismissed all its potential causes that extremely poor argument and here why premise this money being paid you either your big hearted alterian benefactor bug alterian atm thus each monthly appearance the bucks should happen observation alterius and construction evidence for the existence either the benefactor the bug the atm premise observations alterius are possible except for the banks you couldn possibly afford you forgot include this premise actually premise the cardinality the set possible observations alterius one this clearly contradictory the first not you state properly trouble the basis premise you say that there can evidence either the benefactor the bug but the first premise leads the conclusion that the appearance the bucks should happen evidence for the existence either the benefactor the bug voila screaming contradiction with highlights but strawman argument there only evidence for oneof benefactor bug observation distinguish benefactor from bug possible that not evidence for bug and neither evidence for benefactor nor true say that this hypothetical universe appears exactly there were benefactor bug two statements both would false this still contradictory reduces alterian dosh arriving account due benefactor bug this not evidence for benefactor neither evidence for bug meaning that doesn lend more weight one than the other therefore evidence can exist for benefactor and evidence can exist for bug but relies shift meaning from when you say paraphrased that this not evidence for benefactor for example what you mean that more evidence for benefactor than for bug yes that what mean however you shifted the meaning evidence for benefactor that now means absolute evidence for benefactor rather than relative evidence for benefactor bug not really meant evidence that would tend one over the other think this just communications problem what trying say clumsy way that while buy your theory far relates theism making predictions prayer your rapture example don buy your use occam razor all cases where example one couldn dismiss benefactor bug the grounds simplicity one these necessary explain the dosh brought the one one dismissal process show that would wrong from what you saying this post seems you agree and talking cross purposes still contradiction some sums may help with benefactor bug dosh arrives account implies assuming that either the benefactor bug which responsible the bucks arrive but not both then but implies that and this isn what meant and with necessarily new observation already seen the dosh change those estimates was trying say again clumsy way that would wrong assign probability either these and that precisely what use the razor does the case gods gods are one class hypothesis there are many others belonging set hypotheses one which necessary explain something which otherwise would not satisfactorily explained can thrown out retained grounds non rational preference not science statistics alternatively one could chuck out retain the lot the grounds that the answer can known that the notional probability estimates are effectively useless being equal agnosticism weak atheism they when the set filled the universe caused where gods pink unicorns nothing etc and observation tends one conclusion over the other exactly the point was making think don throw out any these contrary your assertion above that some people simon and they think they are doing excellent science sole point was that they aren only observations which directly contradict the hypothesis where can cause zero after finite number observations only this case get throw any the hypotheses out exactly point though may have been unclear you said the diametric opposite which guess the source confusion was merely trying illustrate the incorrectness doing what trying say that while you are correct say that absence evidence can sometimes evidence absence this does not hold true for all perhaps any versions theism and isn true that those for which does not hold can discarded using the razor the contrary those for which does not hold are exactly those which can discarded using the razor see post the other branch this thread then you seem guilty the contradiction you accuse the razor holds for gods then holds for all like hypotheses which means that you assigning for all though already established that not correct when sum over all simply put anyone who claims have viable proof the existence non existence gods whether inductive best mistaken and worst barking mad luckily make such claim and have specifically said much numerous occasions you wouldn constructing strawman here would you frank although that doesn course rule out being barking mad any case could barking mad spare time with apologies cleese but think you miss the point once again when say that something evidence against hypothesis that doesn imply that observation the said something necessarily falsifies the hypothesis reducing the estimate data zero reduces this quantity still evidence against got that talking about the case when you clearly correct when and not constructing strawman though certainly possible that misunderstood what you saying however any standards system that says when gods are highly unlikely and when gods can dismissed using the razor system purporting inductive proof that gods either don exist are unnecessary explain any all phenomena experience systems such this including those which purport prove that gods exist always contain fallacy upon close examination that not what you saying then please put straight frank dwyer not hatching that odwyer sse from hens evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	asimov stamp battin cyclops iucf indiana edu laurence gene battin writes apart from the suggestion that appeared the letters column skeptical inquirer recently has there been any further mention about possible asimov commemorative stamp this idea hasn been followed does anyone know what needs done get this happen think that its great idea should start petition something believe that there year period from time death until person can commemorative stamp was broken once for lyndon johnson think but other than that has held for awhile course can still start now the elvis stamp was petitioned for ages and things really moved once got past the year anniversary his death carl christensen dept computer science christen astro ocis temple edu temple university curiouser and curiouser philadelphia usa
alt.atheism	where are they now article horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes article apr nuscc nus cmtan iss nus tan chade meng dan writes leaving june that because going back university alt atheism banned there stupid theist intolerance sad isn anybody has any idea how can circumvent this problem frank solution deleted you have access telnet contact nyx edu public access unix system completly free and all you need for access verifiable form think requires notarized copy picture check some such kcochran nyx edu tsakc thoughts posts ideas responsibility beer pizza
alt.atheism	age reason was who has read rushdie sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes this the story kent the archetype finn that lives the bay area and tried purchase thomas paine age reason this man was driving around staceys books inc well cleanlighted place daltons various other places when asked for this book the well educated american book store assistants most placed asked him check out the thriller section then they said that his book has not been published yet but they should receive the book soon some places the assistants bluntly said that they don know such author that not well known living author they don keep copies his books such the life and times america years after the revolution similar note good friend mine worked clerk chain bookstore several his peers were amazing one woman particular customer asked her they had the autobiography benjamin franklin who was her first question then still alive then fiction non fiction finally friend intervened and showed the guy where was makes one wonder what the standards employment are scott sauyet ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu
alt.atheism	strong weak atheism rusnews mantis mathew writes did that faq ever got modified define strong atheists not those who assert the nonexistence god but those who assert that they believe the nonexistence god word yes mathew mathew could you let know when this happened can see version date possible try save the faqs once while but otherwise ignore their regular postings wouldn generally notice such change and like stay current thanks scott
alt.atheism	problem with omnipotence recall discussion had heard years ago went something like this the problem with omnipotence least perceive personified the christian god ideal that potentially contradictory manifestation such god truly infinite power can god place limits upon itself some stuff can recall then some other questions think recall correctly can god unmake itself can god make itself assuming doesn yet exist has god has always existed necessary for observer bind all gods potential quantum states into reality was god nothing more than primordial force nature that existed during the earliest stages universal inflationary creation god vacuum fluctuation given great enough energy density could create god would that make god and god something else some more stuff don recall concerning creating god followed god self aware necessary that god self aware god living entity necessay that god living entity god unchanging does evolve any comments post them that others might benefit from the open inquiry and resulting discussion kyle
alt.atheism	atheism 
alt.atheism	you will all hell article pharaoh cyborg martin pharaoh cyborg martin gorman writes jsn psuvm psu edu writes you blashephemers you will all hell for not believing god prepared for your eternal damnation fuck off actually just think confused going hell because gay not becuase don believe god wonder that means can come tammy deans picnic kcochran nyx edu tsakc thoughts posts ideas responsibility beer pizza because the daddy that why
alt.atheism	requests article qllg mailer fsu edu mayne pipe fsu edu william mayne writes article pww spac rice edu pww spacsun rice edu peter walker writes didn the church get lightning rods banned several european countries the eighteenth century because was widely believed that they interfered with god striking down blasphemers seem remember that this was more common eastern europe don know about eastern europe but according bertrand russell writing science and mysticism think though could have been another book said that preachers colonial boston attributed earthquake god wrath over people putting lightning rods which they had been preaching against interference with god will being deprived lightning bolts method get sinners evidently resorted sterner measures smilies not making this sure you are not after the san francisco earthquake couple years ago there was flurry traffic talk religion misc about how this was the result the notorious homo this that and other the city the fact that the earthquake was actually down the road santa cruz watsonville didn seem phase them any jon
alt.atheism	little too satanic kent sandvik and jon livesey made essentially the same response this time kent article gets the reply agree but this started one particular point time and don know when this starting point accurately copied scriptures actually happened this begs the question whether ever started perhaps because accuracy was always intention even worse the events were not written eye witness accounts high probability looking possible dates when the first gospels were ready then have take into account all the problems with information forwarded with the telephone metaphor indeed makes little difference you have eyewitnesses people one step away reporters you will said earlier the telephone metaphor innately bad because the purpose game telephone contrary the aims writing these sorts texts also would point out that the standards generally asserted this group the distinction between eyewitnesses and others hollow since nobody can shown eyewitness indeed even shown the author the text there evidence that the original texts either the the are largely lost over time sea errors corrections additions and deletions the case the the evidence strongly the other direction the textus and the nestle aland text not differ more than low level significance reasonable assume similar situation for the based the model wingate the peace god peace but strife closed the sod mangoe umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace god
alt.atheism	societally acceptable behavior article news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes qvh tinnsg citation ksu ksu edu yohan citation ksu ksu edu jonathan newton writes article qgm news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes merely question for the basis morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior disagree with these what society thinks should irrelevant what the individual decides all that important this doesn seem right want kill you can because that what decide sounds though you are confused between what want and what think morally right jon
alt.atheism	why rushdie writings are unappreciated article quc tut lehtori tut aario sami writes edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes article jqd mdb blaze jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu ken arromdee writes article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes has been asked why counter fatwa has been issued against khomenei condemnation rushdies because his satanic verses the reason basically that the satanic verses from which rushdie took his title are serious matter not played around with anyone who cares about islam this shouldn matter that your opinion which sorry say irrelevant gregg this guy sounds more than little borg ish vell this perfectly normal behaviour vor vogon you know jon
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law just received some new information regarding the issue bcci and whether islamic bank etc now about post under the heading bcci look for there fred rice darice yoyo monash edu
alt.atheism	why boyd acsu buffalo edu daniel boyd writes the bible such incredible proof christianity then why aren the muslims the hindus convinced the qur such incredible proof islam then why aren the hindus the christians convinced god exists why aren atheists convinced tan chade meng yes sir have only one question singapore cmtan iss nus what going
alt.atheism	christianity logic was xtian morality article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes simple logic arguments are folly you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools those who tried trick him with logic you rely simply your reason then you will never know more than you now once heard arguement from xtian friend similar this christianity higher logic athiest like will not able understand your atheist logic very low only thru faith can understand the higher logic god asked him what this higher logic his answer don know this the posting above highlights one the worst things about xtainity abundantly clear both atheists xtains that their believe both illogical irrational their tactics therefore disregard logic rationality altogether silly excuses such the ones above and those such how can trust science science was invented man only goes further show the weakness their religion country where xtainity was and still rapidly growing xtains never try convert people appealing their brains senses they know would fruitless act given the irrational nature their faith they would wait until person distress then they would comfort him her and addict them their emotional opium never life had met person who converted xtainity coz reasonable rationality has place xtainity see xtian arguement against reason above the unenlightened one tan chade meng the wise man tells his wife that understands her singapore cmtan iss nus the fool tries prove the unenlightened one tan chade meng the wise man tells his wife that understands her singapore cmtan iss nus the fool tries prove
alt.atheism	some thoughts article madhausc kip netcom com madhaus netcom com maddi hausmann writes healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy writes tammy see maddi trimmed healy well you going have practice but you getting the hang soon going have give you new nickname try these for size tammy lucky seven healy tammy pass the falafel healy tammy healy tammy learning doing healy the thing trademarked don know charles lazarus dead alive but careful because with name like lazarus might rise again just start lawsuit dean kaflowitz knew architect once who swear was employed design the signs for the toys and kids stores the signs the things they stick over the store big pole they can seen from the highway what job all those hours school studying architect you can tell them move the pole ten feet closer the highway
alt.atheism	some thoughts article aec cbnewsj att com decay cbnewsj att com dean kaflowitz writes the thing trademarked don know charles lazarus dead alive but careful because with name like lazarus might rise again just start lawsuit the not trademarked but the backwards believe speaking proofs god the funniest one have ever seen was term paper handed freshman she wrote god must exist because wouldn mean make believe exists really doesn this argument really much worse than the ontological proofs the existence god provided anselm and descartes among others raymond smullyan from and other philosophical fantasies
alt.atheism	fundamental beliefs sda article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy writes was asked post list the sda church basic beliefs the sda church has always been reluctant formalize creed the usual sense word however the powers that the church deemed neccessary publish summary basic sda beliefs may ask why they are afraid speaking proofs god the funniest one have ever seen was term paper handed freshman she wrote god must exist because wouldn mean make believe exists really doesn this argument really much worse than the ontological proofs the existence god provided anselm and descartes among others raymond smullyan from and other philosophical fantasies
alt.atheism	cults religions jgreen trumpet calpoly edu james thomas green writes religion cult which those power belong actually they all bull shit graeme nattress ncl hitler nibor from the planet vashir the galactic shape changing psychopath john the tomorrow people hitler last secret
alt.atheism	you will all hell article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy writes article apr mnemosyne edu kcochran nyx edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes from kcochran nyx edu keith justified and ancient cochran subject you will all hell date sun apr gmt article pharaoh cyborg martin pharaoh cyborg martin gorman writes jsn psuvm psu edu writes you blashephemers you will all hell for not believing god prepared for your eternal damnation fuck off actually just think confused going hell because gay not becuase don believe god wonder that means can come tammy deans picnic course you can come said all posters are invited and didn put homosexual clause bring some munchies and join the party can imagine dean objecting either knowing keith expect bring the leather accessories better oil well leather cracks when dries dean kaflowitz
alt.atheism	poisoning the well was islamic genocide article rbpq ibg horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes article bbacbc dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes the way that why consider you theist points consisting rhetorical fallacy unsupported claims and demonstrable falsehoods deleted wonder that don see any detail for this claim good remember that you have answered the statement that you are theist another correspondent with that you are not member denomination either stupidity attempt trick answer not unlike the rest your arguments roseneau have little patience with people who tell what believe and who call liar when disagree position not only know what that believe but say agnostic extremely wary the way you use words like this case there are broader definitions gods used persons who are considered themselves and others theists have pointed that post you use one them your use definitions seems rest the assumption because moral objective absolute the other buzz words you are fond everybody will know and there need define more exactly and user has shown recently the easiest way dispell you ask you for definitions you are course free speculate motives for objecting seeming irrational bigotry you wish but the flaws which point out your arguments stand their own merits since you are the only one seeing them and many correspondents point the flaws your reasoning respectively discussing can say impressed benedikt
alt.atheism	some thoughts article lkz blaze jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu ken arromdee writes article briggs ccresources utas edu briggs postoffice utas edu william briggs writes wasn carpenter anyway that beside the point think the fact that more compelling fulfilling the prophecies when the prophecies include him getting killed the most agonizing possible way this nonsense can think lot more agonizing ways get killed fatal cancer for instance anyone else have some more maybe can make list actually find the stuff about being carpenter more interesting there independent source for this assertion all from the christian bible there any record all anything built table house some stairs norm abrams says the real test carpenter skill building stairs with hand tools did leave any plans behind for say kitchen counters and cabinets did build his own cross did use pressure treated lumber gotta use that pressure treated anywhere that wood meets concrete but holds better anyway for mose outdoor applications keep seeing these bumper stickers that say boss jewish carpenter but they always the back ford escorts and real carpenter apprentice would probably drive pickup out for verification that really was carpenter dean kaflowitz sometimes like get away from the shack catfish ain pretty but they don talk back goin fishin again goin fishin again and good friends sure goin fishin again
alt.atheism	some thoughts article apr daffy wisc edu mccullou snake wisc edu mark mccullough writes article lkz blaze jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu ken arromdee writes can think lot more agonizing ways get killed fatal cancer for instance anyone else have some more maybe can make list how about dying blood clot very bad place kidney stones with complete blockage
alt.atheism	some thoughts article kmr cwru edu kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes article aec cbnewsj att com decay cbnewsj att com dean kaflowitz writes the thing trademarked don know charles lazarus dead alive but careful because with name like lazarus might rise again just start lawsuit the not trademarked but the backwards believe yup think you right mistake now how make backwards using computer keyboard bet the gods know how this alt atheism after all tell you what all start coming out backwards when type from now become believer and that not asking for miracles asked for miracle ask for real miracle like for pat buchanan become out the closet drag queen well maybe that wouldn miraculous but think look fabulous feather boa and sequined hat like mia farrow wore gatsby dean kaflowitz
alt.atheism	all mary fault article briggs ccresources utas edu briggs postoffice utas edu william briggs writes deletion lucky for them that the baby didn have any obvious deformities could just see now mary gets pregnant out wedlock save face she and joseph say that was god that got her pregnant and then the baby turns out deformed even worse stillborn they have lot explaining few points guys oops guy and gal but use the term guy asexually has the same sort conspiracy ever occurred since mean there must have been dozen times the past two thousand years when would have been opportune time for messiah born has there guy running around switzerland who claims have been conceived similarly his mother says the same his father said bit surprised but anyway there have been lot messiahs and many have had similar story about their birth their death list messiahs could quite interesting wouldn you feel bad you turned out wrong and the conception christ was via god can just imagine your faces mary asks you you ever had child yourself would wonder why omnipotent god pulls such stunts instead providing evidence for everyone check and the whole question absurd wouldn you feel bad you find out that stones are sentient and that you have stepped them all your life and wouldn you feel bad when you see the proof that jesus was just plot satan they wanted save image they could have done what joseph planned the first place have quite wedding and equally quite divorce think was quite easy under jewish law that regard they would have been pretty dumb think conspiracy like the one you outlined that they bringing attention themselves messiah appearances were like royal scandals zero israel see the part acts when the sandhedrin are discussing what about the growth the new church one wise guy said leave alone and what says nothing can stop and isn then will just fizzle out anyway you forgotten the pride factor didn fizzle the church mean the argument fallacy like thanks for reading this far the end letter most religions claim that they won fizzle because they contain some eternal truth does christianity since there are old religions wonder find old religions that have that they would last roll twelve dice calculate the chance for the result argue that there must something special about the result because event with chance could hardly happen chance only feel elevated because you have participated letting that special event take place benedikt
alt.atheism	thoughts christians bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes robert beauchine wrote that praying the young preying the young comes later when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the priest really wears under that chasible does this statement further the atheist cause some way surely not intended wit surely was intended wit the way which atheist cause were you referring bill kevin marshall computer science department virginia tech marshall csugrad edu blacksburg virginia
alt.atheism	room for metaphor article bakerlj augustana edu bakerlj augustana edu lloyd baker writes what want response giving the pros and cons metaphorical religious language could atheist accept this view without giving the foundamentals what believes could atheist accept usage which religious literature tradition viewed metaphorical way course this essentially what with homer with other concepts such fate luck free will however there remains the question whether the religious literature say christianity particularly good set metaphors for the world today also entirely unclear and quite unlikely that one could take contemporary religion like that and divorce the metaphoric potential from the literalism and absolutism carries now many cases jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours
alt.atheism	moraltiy was political atheists article cmninnb gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes pardon trying apply human terms non humans that right you are basically stating that morality can only deal with humans because only humans are sentient enough moral that you say that morality can only deal with intentions have never said that only humans are the only beings which are sufficiently sentient have intentions fact have explicitly said that perfectly happy consider that some animals are capable forming intentions what objecting considering programmed instinctive behaviour have moral significance since seems such behaviour does not involve intention think that even someone not conscious alternative this does not prevent his behavior from being moral sure you think this you say how about trying convince think that moral act moral whether not the implementor thinks that not the point the point whether the implementor thinks all the issue not whether thinking produces opinion opinion but whether thinking takes place period offered four times think accept your definition you allow ascribe moral significence the orbital motion the planets hmm perhaps you can ascribe could say that many human actions are not natural and thus don follow natural morality since humans are part nature are not all human actions natural perhaps you going throw definition natural that will allow describe some actions natural and some not natural what the definition other than those death which surround mating rituals other animals just don kill each other within species that often they sure they multiple posters have show you sharks for example eat wounded sharks personally seen cats eat their newborn are you some kind denial people give you example after example and you off the air for week and then pop claiming that never happened very strange but why don animals kill each other see what mean here again what have write tailor made faq just for schneider jon
alt.atheism	you will all hell this hell hasn anyone noticed consensual reality special case
alt.atheism	islam and scientific predictions was genocide caused atheism article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes deletion god the one who created the night the day the sun and the moon each travelling orbit with its own motion qur deletion well that certainly different but looks there translation found for everything the way most surprised hear that night and day move orbit thought about this too some translations refer only the latter two objects being orbit but bucaille translation seems indicate the night and the day travelling orbit too perhaps this can understood when one looks from the earth reference frame from this reference frame the day and the night would appear orbit the earth travelling from east west this from the reference frame when the earth still well yes but that belongs the other group there interpretation found for everything however allowing any form interpretation reduces the information the text interprteted zero the way have checked the quote and think the lines preceding those quoted above are more interesting where mountains are set earth order immobilize the earth where the skies heavens are referred well supported the lines given above are after edition maybe this what meant the above just possibility and that the sun travels orbit without saying that earth does too sounds geocentric will see can find out more about this but still not geocentric that sun and moon move and the earth immobile sounds geocentric benedikt
alt.atheism	cruel was political atheists article emjinnmk gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes but this just shows then that painful execution not considered cruel and unusual punishment this shows that cruel used the constitution does not refer whether not the punishment causes physical pain rather must different meaning don think although some forms execution are painful the electric chair looks particularly think the pain relatively short lived drawing and quartering the other hand looks very painful and the victim wouldn die right away bleed death imagine what have now integral over pain time get lash you with wet noodle for ever but only get cut you with power saw quick about jon
alt.atheism	alt atheism faq atheist resources archive name atheism resources alt atheism archive name resources last modified april version atheist resources addresses atheist organizations usa freedom from religion foundation darwin fish bumper stickers and assorted other atheist paraphernalia are available from the freedom from religion foundation the write ffrf box madison telephone evolution designs evolution designs sell the darwin fish fish symbol like the ones christians stick their cars but with feet and the word darwin written inside the deluxe moulded plastic fish postpaid the write evolution designs laurel canyon north hollywood people the san francisco bay area can get darwin fish from lynn gold try mailing figmo netcom com for net people who lynn directly the price per fish set free atheist stickers shirts and books write set free box garden grove american atheist press aap publish various atheist books critiques the bible lists biblical contradictions and one such book the bible handbook ball and foote american atheist press isbn edition bible contradictions absurdities atrocities immoralities contains ball foote the bible contradicts itself aap based the king james version the bible write american atheist press box austin cameron road austin telephone fax prometheus books sell books including haught holy horrors see below write east amherst street buffalo new york telephone alternate address which may newer older prometheus books glenn drive buffalo african americans for humanism organization promoting black secular humanism and uncovering the history black freethought they publish quarterly newsletter aah examiner write norm allen african americans for humanism box buffalo united kingdom rationalist press association national secular society islington high street holloway road london london british humanist association south place ethical society lamb conduit passage conway hall london red lion square london fax the national secular society publish the freethinker monthly magazine founded germany ibka internationaler bund der konfessionslosen und atheisten postfach berlin germany ibka publish journal miz materialien und informationen zur zeit politisches journal der konfessionslosesn und atheisten hrsg ibka miz vertrieb postfach berlin germany for atheist books write ibdk internationaler ucherdienst der konfessionslosen postfach hannover germany telephone books fiction thomas disch the santa claus compromise short story the ultimate proof that santa exists all characters and events are fictitious any similarity living dead gods well walter miller canticle for leibowitz one gem this post atomic doomsday novel the monks who spent their lives copying blueprints from saint leibowitz filling the sheets paper with ink and leaving white lines and letters edgar pangborn davy post atomic doomsday novel set clerical states the church for example forbids that anyone produce describe use any substance containing atoms philip dick philip dick dick wrote many philosophical and thought provoking short stories and novels his stories are bizarre times but very approachable wrote mainly but wrote about people truth and religion rather than technology although often believed that had met some sort god remained sceptical amongst his novels the following are some relevance galactic pot healer fallible alien deity summons group earth craftsmen and women remote planet raise giant cathedral from beneath the oceans when the deity begins demand faith from the earthers pot healer joe fernwright unable comply polished ironic and amusing novel maze death noteworthy for its description technology based religion valis the schizophrenic hero searches for the hidden mysteries gnostic christianity after reality fired into his brain pink laser beam unknown but possibly divine origin accompanied his dogmatic and dismissively atheist friend and assorted other odd characters the divine invasion god invades earth making young woman pregnant she returns from another star system unfortunately she terminally ill and must assisted dead man whose brain wired hour easy listening music margaret atwood the handmaid tale story based the premise that the congress mysteriously assassinated and fundamentalists quickly take charge the nation set right again the book the diary woman life she tries live under the new christian theocracy women right own property revoked and their bank accounts are closed sinful luxuries are outlawed and the radio only used for readings from the bible crimes are punished retroactively doctors who performed legal abortions the old world are hunted down and hanged atwood writing style difficult get used first but the tale grows more and more chilling goes various authors the bible this somewhat dull and rambling work has often been criticized however probably worth reading only that you know what all the fuss about exists many different versions make sure you get the one true version books non fiction peter rosa vicars christ bantam press although rosa seems christian even catholic this very enlighting history papal immoralities adulteries fallacies etc german translation gottes erste diener die dunkle seite des papsttums droemer knaur michael martin atheism philosophical justification temple university press philadelphia usa detailed and scholarly justification atheism contains outstanding appendix defining terminology and usage this necessarily tendentious area argues both for negative atheism the non belief the existence god and also for positive atheism the belief the non existence god includes great refutations the most challenging arguments for god particular attention paid refuting contempory theists such platinga and swinburne pages isbn hardcover paperback also available the case against christianity temple university press comprehensive critique christianity which considers the best contemporary defences christianity and ultimately demonstrates that they are unsupportable and incoherent pages isbn james turner without god without creed the johns hopkins university press baltimore usa subtitled the origins unbelief america examines the way which unbelief whether agnostic atheistic became mainstream alternative world view focusses the period and while considering france and britain the emphasis american and particularly new england developments neither religious history secularization atheism without god without creed rather the intellectual history the fate single idea the belief that god exists pages isbn hardcover paper george seldes editor the great thoughts ballantine books new york usa dictionary quotations different kind concentrating statements and writings which explicitly implicitly present the person philosophy and world view includes obscure and often suppressed opinions from many people for some popular observations traces the way which various people expressed and twisted the idea over the centuries quite number the quotations are derived from cardiff what great men think religion and noyes views religion pages isbn paper richard swinburne the existence god revised edition clarendon paperbacks oxford this book the second volume trilogy that began with the coherence theism and was concluded with faith and reason this work swinburne attempts construct series inductive arguments for the existence god his arguments which are somewhat tendentious and rely upon the imputation late century western christian values and aesthetics god which supposedly simple can conceived were decisively rejected mackie the miracle theism the revised edition the existence god swinburne includes appendix which makes somewhat incoherent attempt rebut mackie mackie the miracle theism oxford this posthumous volume contains comprehensive review the principal arguments for and against the existence god ranges from the classical philosophical positions descartes anselm berkeley hume through the moral arguments newman kant and sidgwick the recent restatements the classical theses plantinga and swinburne also addresses those positions which push the concept god beyond the realm the rational such those kierkegaard kung and philips well replacements for god such lelie axiarchism the book delight read less formalistic and better written than martin works and refreshingly direct when compared with the hand waving swinburne james haught holy horrors illustrated history religious murder and madness prometheus books looks religious persecution from ancient times the present day and not only christians library congress catalog card number norm allen african american humanism anthology see the listing for african americans for humanism above gordon stein anthology atheism and rationalism prometheus books anthology covering wide range subjects including the devil evil and morality and the history freethought comprehensive bibliography edmund cohen the mind the bible believer prometheus books study why people become christian fundamentalists and what effect has them george smith atheism the case against god prometheus books describes the positions atheism theism and agnosticism reviews many the arguments used favour the existence god concludes with assessment the impact god people lives net resources there small mail based archive server mantis which carries archives old alt atheism moderated articles and assorted other files for more information send mail archive server mantis saying help send atheism index and will mail back reply mathew
alt.atheism	alt atheism faq overview for new readers archive name atheism overview alt atheism archive name overview last modified april version overview welcome alt atheism and alt atheism moderated this the first series regular postings aimed new readers the newsgroups many groups controversial nature have noticed that new readers often come with the same questions mis statements misconceptions and post them the net addition people often request information which has been posted time and time again order try and cut down this the alt atheism groups have series five regular postings under the following titles alt atheism faq overview for new readers alt atheism faq introduction atheism alt atheism faq frequently asked questions faq alt atheism faq constructing logical argument alt atheism faq atheist resources this article number please read numbers and before posting the others are entirely optional you are new usenet you may also find helpful read the newsgroup news announce newusers the articles titled primer how work with the usenet community answers frequently asked questions about usenet and hints writing style for usenet are particularly relevant questions concerning how news works are best asked news newusers questions you are unable find any the articles listed above see the finding stuff section below credits these files could not have been written without the assistance the many readers alt atheism and alt atheism moderated particular like thank the following people kck cmu edu karl kluge perry dsinc com jim perry netoprwa ncsuvm ncsu edu wayne aiken chpetk gdr bath toby kelsey jkp hut jyrki kuoppala geoff arnold east sun com geoff arnold torkel sics torkel franzen kmldorf utdallas edu george kimeldorf roe quads uchicago edu greg roelofs arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu ken arromdee madhaus netcom com maddi hausmann psuvm psu edu john johnson dgraham bmers bnr douglas graham mayne open fsu edu william mayne ajr bigbird hri com andy rosen stoesser ira uka achim stoesser bosullvn unix tcd bryan sullivan lippard ccit arizona edu james lippard rigel tamu edu baum ydobyns phoenix princeton edu york dobyns schroede sdsc edu wayne schroeder baldwin csservera usna navy mil baldwin nibby unhh unh edu dana nibby dempsey kodak com richard dempsey jmunch hertz elee calpoly edu john david munch pdc dcs paul crowley mips complang tuwien richard zach tycchow math mit edu tim chow simon dcs warwick simon clippingdale phimanen helsinki pekka himanen and countless others forgotten these articles are free truly free you may copy them and distribute them anyone you wish however please send any changes corrections the author and please not post copies the articles alt atheism does nobody any good have multiple versions the same document floating around the network finding stuff all the faq files should somewhere your news system here are some suggestions what you can find them check the newsgroup alt atheism look for subject lines starting with alt atheism faq check the newsgroup news answers for the same subject lines you don find anything steps your news system isn set correctly and you may wish tell your system administrator about the problem you have anonymous ftp access connect rtfm mit edu the directory pub usenet alt atheism and you find the latest versions the faq files there ftp way copying files between networked computers you need help using getting started with ftp send mail mail server rtfm mit edu with send usenet news answers ftp list faq the body there are other sites which also carry news answers postings the article introduction the news answers newsgroup carries list these sites the article posted regularly news answers you don have ftp send mail mail server rtfm mit edu consisting the following lines send usenet news answers finding sources send usenet alt atheism faq send usenet alt atheism introduction send usenet alt atheism logic send usenet alt atheism resources penultimate resort send mail mail server mantis consisting the following lines send atheism faq faq txt send atheism faq logic txt send atheism faq intro txt send atheism faq resource txt and our poor overworked modems will try and send you copy the files there other stuff too interesting commands try are help and send atheism index last resort mail mathew mantis post article the newsgroup asking how you can get the faq files you should only this you tried the above methods and they failed not nice clutter the newsgroup people mailboxes with requests for files better than posting without reading the faq though for instance people whose email addresses get mangled transit and who don have ftp will probably need assistance obtaining the faq files mathew
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes article markp avignon markp avignon mark pundurs wrote you take lsd and skews your perception reality you come down and your perceptions unskew never taken lsd but read about the strange lifes and times the ashbury heights culture something that was usually profound was the way these lsd trippers mentioned that after their first trip they changed their view the world other words taking lsd would change their reference frames which would indicate that deep changes due let say rewiring the brain temporarily will indeed change frames and this leads the statement that there solid reference frame the lsd trippers modified their relative view much the haight ashbury crowd probably had pre existing dissatisfactions with their lives dissatisfactions ameliorated mumbo jumbo about new realities the only change experienced after lsd was gain the knowledge that didn enjoy how lsd twisted perception mark pundurs any resemblance between opinions and those wolfram research inc purely coincidental
alt.atheism	genocide caused theism evidence apr gmt bobbe vice robert beauchaine yayg said execellent examples luther insane rantings deleted gee sooooo surprised that they don teach this part his ideology high schools today mccreary edm twisto compaq com were not for laughter there would tao
alt.atheism	thoughts christians wed apr gmt sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik wrote article rgkb darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu conner questioning the blissful afterlife reason why many joined the early xian church well remember jacoby mythmaker talks about this cite one source but not sure all christians have read this book addition social experiences from being raised and educated lutheran having lot christian friends and even have played two christian rock bands you mean hyam maccoby the mythmaker mike mcangus the truth still the truth mam mouse cmhnet org even you choose ignore some the old sig viruses are still the best
alt.atheism	death penalty was political atheists tue apr gmt bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner wrote this fascinating atheists argue for abortion defend homosexuality means population control insist that the only values are biological and condemn war and capital punishment according benedikt something contardictory cannot exist which this case means atheists suppose what atheists are you talking about imnsho abortion the womans choice homosexual sex the choice the people involved war sometimes necessary this leaves capital punishment oppose capital punishemnt because mistakes can happen yes this thread went around with resolution recently far poplulation control think contraception and education are the best courses action would like understand how atheist can object war excellent means controlling population growth capital punishment sorry but the logic escapes that because you are again making the assumption that all atheists have some specific mindset and why just capital punishment what being questioned here the propriety killing punishment what the basis the ecomplaint mistakes can happen bill and could the victim such mistake mike mcangus the truth still the truth mam mouse cmhnet org even you choose ignore some the old sig viruses are still the best
alt.atheism	americans and evolution tue apr gmt bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner wrote robert singleton bobs thnext mit edu wrote sure isn mutually exclusive but lends weight increases notional running estimates the posterior probability the atheist pitch the partition and thus necessarily reduces the same quantity the theist pitch this because the divine component falls prey ockham razor the phenomenon being satisfactorily explained without and there being independent evidence any such component more detail the next post occam razor not law nature way analyzing argument even interesting how often cited here and what end seems odd that religion simultaneously condemned being primitive simple minded and unscientific anti intellectual and childish and yet again condemned being too complex occam razor the scientific explanation things being much more straightforeward and apparently simpler cute characterization bill however there inconsistency between the two statements even one believes that religion primitive simple minded and unscientific anti intellectual and childish one can still hold the view that religion also adds unnecessary level complexity the explanation the ideas themselves don have complex before being excised occam razor they only have add unnecessarily the overall complexity the description which which the non essential and how you know think the non essential part explanatory system one that adds predictive capability the system considering that even scientists don fully comprehend science due its complexity and diversity maybe william occam has performed lobotomy kept the frontal lobe and thrown everything else away huh this all very confusing sure one you will straighten out tough watch your freudian slip showing mike mcangus the truth still the truth mam mouse cmhnet org even you choose ignore some the old sig viruses are still the best
alt.atheism	christian morality apr gmt dps nasa kodak com dan schaertel wrote article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes yet still not believer god not concerned with disposition why beneath him provide with the evidence would require believe the evidence that personality given this god would find compelling the fact god could cause you believe anything wants you but think about for minute would you rather have someone love you because you made them love you because they wanted love you the responsibility you love god and take step toward him promises there for you but you have look for yourself those who doubt this dispute have not givin sincere effort and many others have described how have tried find god are you saying our efforts have not been sincere for all the effort have put there has been outward nor inward change that can perceive what sincerely searching agnostic atheist supposed when even the search turns nothing simple logic arguments are folly you read the bible you will see that jesus made fools those who tried trick him with logic our ability reason just spec creation yet some think the ultimate you rely simply your reason then you will never know more than you now learn you must accept that which you don know how you accept that which you don know you mean that must believe your god order believe your god mike mcangus the truth still the truth mam mouse cmhnet org even you choose ignore some the old sig viruses are still the best
alt.atheism	hard soft strong weak kiss apr gmt timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons wrote mccullou whipple wisc edu writes writing someone else but you probably like seem soft atheist sorry for the flamage can get back using the terms strong atheist and weak atheist rather than this hard atheist and soft atheist can imagine future discussions with newbies where there confusion because the multiplication descriptions rest deleted mike mcangus the truth still the truth mam mouse cmhnet org even you choose ignore some the old sig viruses are still the best
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu ken arromdee writes simple take out some physics books and start looking for statements which say that there objective physics doubt you will find any you might find statements that there objective length objective location but objective physics perhaps you have different understanding what physics can measure anything objectively then the answers get from physics aren objective either that what mean when say there objective physics sure can all agree that say gmm but that maths only physics when you relate the real world and can that objectively stuck course this displays blatant bias towards applied science but even theoretical physics gets applied models real world situations based real world observations consider for instance that speed light vacuum invariant this sounds awful lot like objective speed light vacuum axiom that invariant but the two measure get different answers yes call that experimental error but not really error the conventional sense fact you don get any that error you could argue that the value objective within some value but call that rather odd usage the word objective and opens the way for statements like murder objectively wrong for all people within the total population mathew
alt.atheism	burden proof watson sce carleton stephen watson writes kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy writes fbi officials said cult leader david koresh may have forced followers remain flames closed koresh armed guard may have injected many children with poison quiet them the fbi have proof this yet why ask only quoting the fbi official why not ask the fbi myabe they lying cover maybe they telling the truth the children were course killed lone gunman second story window who fired eight bullets the space two seconds mathew
alt.atheism	cults religions mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes the media religion and cult have about the same relative connotations government and terrorist group yes each form the other charley anarchist just true words being spoken jest mathew
alt.atheism	gulf war and peace niks mccullou snake wisc edu mark mccullough writes seem agreeing that the soldiers were just doing their job best they could following orders proof positive that some people are beyond satire mathew
alt.atheism	are atoms real was after years blah blah blah kempmp phoenix oulu petri pihko writes mathew mathew mantis wrote what the difference between chemist and someone who taught chemistry say cambridge university put like this can answer was originally pointing out that your attitude seemed don know really was that chemists tend ignore all kinds effects when they not important yes all scientists otherwise science would never get anywhere your original posting stated that when doing chemistry common ignore atomic interactions hang about not atomic interactions general just specific ones which are deemed unimportant like gravitational interactions between ions which are small they drowned out electrostatic effects and has there been some revolution teaching methods the last four years perhaps this revolution has yet reach cambridge now get flamed for sure probably they still make people memorize equations and spectra maybe few decades they discover the revolutionary data book technique bitter and twisted mathew
alt.atheism	history texts was ancient references christianity wrote the diaries the followers the maharishi formerly oregon are historical evidence article psilink com robert knowles psilink com writes are you confusing bhagwan rajneesh with the maharishi mahesh yogi here any chance believe that maharishi titular someone please correct wrong thus maharishi rajneesh different person from maharishi mahesh but they are both maharishis russell
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality article itp horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer says specifically like know what relativism concludes when two people grotesquely disagree both are right one them wrong and sometimes though perhaps rarely have pretty good idea who one them wrong but never have any information who make our best guess really must make decision the idea right moral judgement meaningless implying that whether peace better than war meaningless question and need not discussed for has correct answer something else short positive assertion would nice hope you can tell and are actually predicated the assumption that values are real statements like these can consistently derive from the relativist assumption that values aren part objective reality relativist who would like answer your question but the way you phrase the question makes unanswerable the concepts right and wrong correct incorrect true false belong the domain epistemological rather than moral questions makes sense ask moral position right wrong although legitimate ask good better than another position let illustrate this point looking the psychological derivatives epistemology and ethics perception and motivation respectively one can certainly ask percept right correct true veridical wrong incorrect false illusory but makes little sense ask motive true false the other hand strange ask whether percept morally good evil but one can certainly ask that question about motives therefore your suggested answers simply can considered they assume you can judge the correctness moral judgment now the problem with that double barrelled agree with the first part that the rightness moral position meaningless question for the reasons stated above but that irrelevant the alleged implication not implication all that one cannot feel peace better than war certainly can make value judgments bad better best without asserting the correctness the position sorry for the lengthy dismissal short answer that when two individuals grotesquely disagree moral issue neither right correct wrong incorrect they simply hold different moral values feelings john johnson psuvm psu edu department psychology penn state dubois campus penn state not responsible for behavior ruthless doctrinaire avoidance degeneracy degeneracy another sort getting drunk and picking bar ladies and writing metaphysics part life from lila pirsig
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality this swf another indirect post via dan article apr asl nec com duffy aslss asl nec com joseph duffy writes article apr microsoft com russpj microsoft com russ paul jones writes the same way that any theory proven false you examine the predicitions that the theory makes and try observe them you don you observe things that the theory predicts wouldn happen then you have some evidence against the theory the theory can modified incorporate the new observations then you say that false but how does one handle the nonrepeatability the experiment many types experiments the prediction that the observed phenomena will happen again and capable being observed for example chemistry someone may predict the outcome chemical reaction and then actually observe that reaction repeatedly there are several problems here first you are discussing only experimental procedures observational procedures are also useful the main criterion attempting verify idea using make prediction about yet unmade observations the observations could the result experiment they could obsevations activity occuring spontaneossly nature they could even observations the lasting results events long past all that matters that the observations new this what prediction about science not about predicting the future except this very restricted sense secondly repeatability can also take many forms really just the requirement that independent observers able verify the results the observation fossil repeatable since any qualified observer may look this why the specimens are reqtined museum also there the implicit prediction that future fossil finds will correspond the current one new fossils are found often enough that this tested regularly many times new fossil actually falsifies some conclusion made the basis previous fossils unfortunately for you the models that were falsified have alway been peripheral the model evolution now have for instance the front legs tyrannosaurus rex turned out have tremendous muscles rather than being weakly endowed previously believed fact histoircal science findings are repeatable the necessary sense just becuase you cannot out and repeat the original event does not make impossible make valid observations this not say that biologists would not coo coo extra terrestrial life were discovered that could make the determination the process abiogenesis relatively easy sarima teradata com formerly tdatirv sarima stanley friesen elsegundoca ncr com sarima teradata com formerly tdatirv sarima stanley friesen elsegundoca ncr com
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes the intent post remember was show that you cannot argue against any religion ideology for that matter the actions those who claim its followers you have look the teachings the religion the principles the ideology itself there getting around this argue against islam you have the qur bringing khomeini anyone else relevant discussing khomeini but not necessarily relevant discussing islam religion sorry fred but for the purposes under discussion here must disagree your point true only the sense that one cannot argue against communism reference the chinese soviet empires since those did not represent true communism judging the practical consequences islam force contend with the world today precisely the khomeini the world the rushdie fatwa supporters and perhaps more importantly the reaction the world muslim community those extremists that must look perhaps unfortunately from your perspective most people are not concerned with whether islam the right religion for them whether the qur could used guidebook for hypothetical utopia but how islam affects the world around them what their lives might like islam gains influence when consider such possibilities with not inconsiderable fear jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours
alt.atheism	hoban was the inimitable rushdie article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes interchange hoban deleted this post mine also illustrates that not simply reactionary who hates any book which doesn out its way avoid upsetting religionists only those you haven actually read sorry but the irony remains reiterate for the nth time also that don agree with fatwa nor support censorship point the original thread has been show why rushdie not particularly due sympathy those who hold their religion high esteem and don enjoy seeing things which slander like the story the satanic verses opposed the rushdie tsv played with for amusement although you don agree with the fatwa and apparently don think rushdie should killed for his book yet you think not due sympathy for being being under this threat furthermore you base this reaction solely the fact that wrote about particular well known story which true might reflect poorly the absolute truth your religion yet this opinion formed without recourse actually looking see how the story used context accepting face value the widespread propaganda just what this book contains and what the author motivations are and then you come forward and recommend another book which touches presumably plays with religious historical material because you find its overall presentation neutral jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours
alt.atheism	death penalty was political atheists bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes this fascinating atheists argue for abortion defend homosexuality means population control insist that the only values are biological and condemn war and capital punishment according benedikt something contardictory cannot exist which this case means atheists suppose would like understand how atheist can object war excellent means controlling population growth capital punishment sorry but the logic escapes first you seem assume all atheists think alike atheist does not believe the existence god our opinions issues such capital punishment and abortion however vary greatly you were attacking the views particular atheist benedikt presume then please present your argument such and not lump all together for the issues let start with abortion personally not support abortion means population control contraception after the fact however support the right any woman have abortion regardless what personal views may because would arrogant tell any individual what she may may not his her body and the domain legislators should not extend into the uterus that opinion and sure many atheists and theists would disagree with not defend homosexuality means population control but certainly defend end itself think most homosexuals would angered hear anyone characterizing their personal relationship nothing more than conscious effort keep population levels down for atheists believing all values are biological have idea what you talking about finally there are the issues war and capital punishment atheist can object either one just easily theist might you seem hung some supposed conspiratorial link between atheism and population control could this the atheist cause you were referring few posts back kevin marshall computer science department virginia tech marshall csugrad edu blacksburg virginia
alt.atheism	faith and dogma tgk toronto edu todd kelley writes faith and dogma are irrational the faith and dogma part any religion are responsible for the irrationality the individuals disagree the end the individual responsible for his her own irrationality the individual belief some dogmatic religion symptom that irrationality have you noticed that philosophers tend atheists atheists and agnostics would imagine but yes that was point atheist would theoretically just ill equipped study the philosophy religion christian and yet there persistence atheists among the ranks philosophers therefore the conflict between one religious beliefs lack thereof and the ability philosopher must not great you assert the fact that most philosophers may non religious was secondary point science would practiced atheists contrast has built defence against faith and dogma opposed science practiced theists careful here science does have built defence against faith and dogma skepticism unfortunately not foolproof there that wonderful little creature known the theory many believe the theory evolution have absolute proof that this theory true why believe because makes more sense than there quite bit faith involved here scientist holds sacred the idea that beliefs should change suit whatever the best information available the time and and and scientist understands that any current beliefs are deficient some way well not all current beliefs are deficient but basically agree can you see the difference science views beliefs being flawed and new information can obtained improve them ideally this true reality though you have acknowledge that scientists are human scientists have egos and biases some scientists assume particular theory true refuse admit the flaws that theory because ego problems whatever and proceed spend their time and money trying come with absolute proof for the theory remember cold fusion the way wasn aware mass suicide was problem waco and jonestown were isolated incidents mass suicides are far from common clinton and the fbi would love for you convince them this would save the taxpayer lot money you could not really agree that spent far too much money the waco crisis believe especially considering the outcome point was that mass suicides the are rare jonestown was guyana incidentally although footed the bill for the clean and the has far more important issues address compare the number citizens who have died mass suicides with say the number soldiers who died during one week the vietnam war and you will see point kevin marshall computer science department virginia tech marshall csugrad edu blacksburg virginia
alt.atheism	rawlins debunks creationism article dglinnkv ctron news ctron com king ctron com john king writes iastate edu warren vonroeschlaub writes neither nor webster has ever heard francis hitchings who please not answer with well known evolutionist some other such informationless phrase paleontologist and author the neck the giraffe the quote was taken from jack for your information checked the library congress catalog and they list the following books francis hitching earth magic the neck the giraffe where darwin went wrong pendulum the psi connection the world atlas mysteries tom scharle scharle irishmvs room computing center scharle lukasiewicz edu university notre dame notre dame usa
alt.atheism	rawlins debunks creationism article ursa bear com halat pooh bears jim halat writes article sncl usenet ucs indiana edu adpeters sunflower bio indiana edu andy peters writes evolution have said before theory and fact exactly the same amount each the existence atoms and the existence gravity you accept the existence atoms and gravity fact then you should also accept the existence evolution fact andy don accept atoms gravity fact either they are extremely useful mathematical models describe physical observations can make other posters have aptly explained the atomic model gravity too very much theory gravity waves have even been detected but have very useful model that describes much the behavior objects this thing call gravity gravity however not fact theoretical model used talk about how objects behave our physical environment newton thought gravity was simple vector force einstein wave both are very useful models that have religious overtones requirements faith unless course you want demand that factual physical entity described exactly the way the theory now formulated talks about that takes great leap faith which course what religion takes evolution different jim halat halat bear com bear stearns whatever doesn kill you will only serve annoy you nyc speak only for myself what you accept fact the roundness the earth after all the ancient greeks thought was sphere and then newton said was spheroid and now people say geoid yourself isn your personal identity just theoretical construct make sense memories feelings perceptions trying think anything that would fact for you give some examples and let see how factual they are your criteria btw what are your criteria gravity not fact that fact how about newton and einstein thoughts about gravity fact that they had those thoughts don see how any the things that you are asserting are any more factual than things like gravity atoms evolution short before willing consider your concept what fact going have have minimum some examples what you think are facts tom scharle scharle irishmvs room computing center scharle lukasiewicz edu university notre dame notre dame usa
alt.atheism	mottos replace dog trust pepke dirac scri fsu edu eric pepke writes mammon trust hey this just piece paper spend quickly this your god from john carpenter they live natch steve the lurking horror stelter sjs uxa cso uiuc edu
alt.atheism	fake god holy lies article apr zeus calpoly edu dmcaloon tuba calpoly edu david mcaloon writes remember einstien said imagination greater than knowledge then einstein should have had lunch with the tien castro street yesterday when they handed fortune cookie that said who has imagination but not knowledge has wings but feet jon
alt.atheism	free moral agency see told you there was atheist mythology thanks for proving point bill
alt.atheism	free moral agency maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com wrote but how know that you representing the real christians bill you asshole get lost maddi see that you still can grasp the obvious because your are devious nature can you only find fault with argument misrepresenting plainly said that was stating the christian position understand did not say whether agree with since point was that the only flaws that position are those atheists invent have never claimed expert anything and especially christianity but have made object pretty intense study over the years feel qualified discuss what its general propositions are what offends you that have exposed the distortions and misrepresentations christianity you contrive and then rail against which seems more like the classical strawman dodge than what said this leaves you with nothing but attack but usual you avoid the larger issues picking away the insignificant stuff why not find one particular thing post that can discuss can you even tell what the issues are bill
alt.atheism	free moral agency article uul darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes many the atheists posting here argue against their own parody religion they create some ridiculous caricature religion and then attack the believers within that religion and the religion itself ridiculous their own devices they establish new religion mythology you mean bobby mozumder myth wondered about that the point course erect easy target and deflect the disputants away from the real issue atheism the fictional christian moslem jew who supposed believe the distorted representation their beliefs presented here therefore made seem fool and his her arguments can thereby made appear ludicrous the mythology the misrepresentations religion used here fact you mean bobby mozumder didn really post here wondered about that too conner bobby mozumder myth performing artist real moslem crackpot provocateur you know everything and read all minds why don you tell jon
alt.atheism	free moral agency article uul darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes many the atheists posting here argue against their own parody religion they create some ridiculous caricature religion and then attack the believers within that religion and the religion itself ridiculous their own devices they establish new religion mythology that not atheism mythology any sense the word religious paradoy would significantly more appropriate the part rendered null and void the simple fact that know several strong atheists sure that others myself strong the sense that find the standard concept god without any meaning any attempt bring meaning either results the destruction the viability language internal self contradiction the concept strong atheism not just whimsical fantasy they and exist your strawman pointless and weak private note jennifer fakult this post may contain one more the following sarcasm cycnicism irony humor please aware this possibility and not allow yourself confused and thrown for loop doubt assume all the above the owners this account not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability recognize any the above read your own risk jennifer
alt.atheism	free moral agency article uxj darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes see told you there was atheist mythology thanks for proving point bill considering what you quoted and refered was blank must say touche course you are correct there atheistic mythology employed this board there null and void private note jennifer fakult this post may contain one more the following sarcasm cycnicism irony humor please aware this possibility and not allow yourself confused and thrown for loop doubt assume all the above the owners this account not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability recognize any the above read your own risk jennifer
alt.atheism	free moral agency article uzpe darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes what offends you that have exposed the distortions and misrepresentations christianity you contrive and then rail against which seems more like the classical strawman dodge than what said this leaves you with nothing but attack but usual you avoid the larger issues picking away the insignificant stuff why not find one particular thing post that can discuss can you even tell what the issues are let guess you not psycho analyst real life but you play one alt atheism right esp something you have been given god private note jennifer fakult this post may contain one more the following sarcasm cycnicism irony humor please aware this possibility and not allow yourself confused and thrown for loop doubt assume all the above the owners this account not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability recognize any the above read your own risk jennifer
alt.atheism	death penalty gulf war long article apr daffy wisc edu mccullou snake wisc edu mark mccullough writes article optima arizona edu sham arizona edu shamim zvonko mohamed writes bullshit the gulf massacre all ordnance used was smart the rest that was just regular dumb iron bombs and stuff have heard figures closer and the that was the smart stuff hit again try follow here that means this smart arsenal missed most figures have seen place the hit ratio close which still far higher than your have source that says that date the civilian death count excuse mean collateral damage about have never seen any source that was claiming such figure please post the source its reliability can judged obviously have different sources bill moyers who happens theist tie this alt atheism his pbs documentary after the war main source think still have videotape others include the nation and the progressive the rest the article mere rationalisation you may claim that sanitation plants are strategic legitimate targets but what happens the civilians city with sewer system what happens the civilians when you destroy water purification plants and when hospitals can handle the resultant epidemics because there more electricity and what exactly are your sources have all sure seen postol interviews the media where demostrates how the pentagon lied about the patriot effectiveness what your source for the effectiveness you claim any case don know this relevant alt atheism how about move somewhere else shamim mohamed uunet noao cmcl arizona shamim shamim arizona edu take this cross and garlic here mezuzah jewish page the koran muslim and zen buddhist you your own member the league for programming freedom write lpf uunet net
alt.atheism	the qur and atheists was jewish settlers demolish mosque gaza article psilink com robert knowles psilink com writes date sun apr gmt from fred rice darice yoyo monash edu the qur talks about those who take their lusts and worldly desires for their god think this probably encompasses most atheists fred rice darice yoyo monash edu well all the muslim men screwing fourteen year old prostitutes thailand got better quote wonder the above quote forms the justification for athiesm and the equanimity with which their belief arrived
alt.atheism	free moral agency andrew newell tan psuvm psu edu wrote think you letting atheist mythology confuse you the issue webster myth traditional legendary story belief whose truth accepted uncritically how does that qualify indeed almost oxymoronic rather amusing instance found that most atheists hold almost atheist views accepted uncritically especially the few that are legend many are trying explain basic truths myths but they don meet the other criterions andrew the myth which refer the convoluted counterfeit athiests have created make religion appear absurd rather than approach religion including christainity rational manner and debating its claims the are stated atheists concoct outrageous parodies and then hold the religious accountable for beliefs they don have what more accurately oxymoric the term like reasonable atheist bill divine justice according the most fundamental doctrines christianity when the first man sinned was that time the you accuse him referencing mythology then you procede launch your own xtian mythology this time meeting all the requirements myth here good example what said above read the post again said acoording which means referring christian doctrine understand speaking for myself you know purpose posting was present basic overview christain doctrines since seemed germane bill with those who pretend not know what being said and what means when atheists claim that they not know god exists and don know what wants they contradict the bible which clearly says that everyone knows the authority the bible its claim should repeat what wrote above for the sake getting across you may trust the bible but your trusting doesn make any more credible the bible says that everyone knows that clearly reason doubt the bible because not everyone knows your alleged god alleged existance again paraphrasing christian doctrine which very clear this point your dispute not with bill refuted while the species wide condemnation justified those that claim that there evidence for the existence god that his will unknown must deliberately ignore the bible the ignorance itself excuse they don have ignore the bible the bible far from universally accepted the bible not proof god only proof that some people have thought that there was god does prove even that they might have been writing series fiction short stories the case dionetics assuming the writers believed the only thing could possibly prove that they believed and that ignoring the problem whether not all the interpretations and biblical philosophers were correct there are people who have truly never heard the bible again read the faq here again you miss the point the bible itself not the point what contains makes difference who accpets the bible even who unaware its existence christians hold that applies universally because mankind shares the same nature and the same fate and the same innate knowledge god see above you read post with same care read the faq wouldn having this conversation bill freedom you are free ignore god the same way you are free ignore gravity and the consequences are inevitable and well known both cases that atheist can accept the evidence means only bzzt wrong answer gravity directly there doesn stop exerting direct and rationally undeniable influence you ignore god the other hand doesn generally show the supermarket except the tabloids god doesn exert rationally undeniable influence gravity obvious gods aren said the evidence there you just don accept here least agree bill secondly human reason very comforatble with the concept god much that itself intrinsic our nature human reason always comes back the question god every generation and human reason hasn always come back the existance god has usually come back the existance god other words doesn generally come back the xtian god comes back whether there any god and much oriental philosophic history generally doesn pop the idea god much the question what natural forces are and which ones are out there from world wide view human nature just makes wonder how the universe came and what force are currently control natural tendancy believe god only exists religious wishful thinking yes human reason does always come back the existence god having this discussion are not bill said all this make the point that christianity eminently reasonable that divine justice just and human nature much different than what atheists think whether you agree not you certainly are not correct human nature you are the least basing your views completely eurocentric approach try looking the outside world well when you attempt sum all humanity well this interesting truth determined politically correct content granted extremely unhip wasp male and anything european contemptable but thought this kind dialogue the purpose was get the truth things but then remember the oxymoron reasonalble atheist and understand bill
alt.atheism	free moral agency james felder spbach lerc nasa gov wrote are you saying that their was physical adam and eve and that all humans are direct decendents only these two human beings then who were cain and able wives couldn their sisters because didn have daughters were they non humans okay all humans are direct descendents bunch hopeful monsters the human race didn evolve from one set parents but from thousands you really base your atheist this considering that something like out humans this planet don know instinctively that the christian god exist the claim instinctive knowledge doesn look like hold much water are you saying that the billion non christians the world must fight this instinctive urge acknowledge god and did say that people were christians nature did say that christians hold that everyone knows the god the christians worship would have thought the distinction obvious sorry read post again and see what really said from what you written think you are just being agumentative also your word wrap screwed you need shift columns text bill
alt.atheism	free moral agency kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com wrote agree had hard feeling not believing grand grand mother who told elves dancing outside barns the early mornings preferred not accept even her statement provided the truth itself life hard kent truly brilliant rebuttal apparently you are the opinion that ridicule suitable substitute for reason you find plenty company bill
alt.atheism	cruel kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes don think although some forms execution are painful the electric chair looks particularly think the pain relatively short lived drawing and quartering the other hand looks very painful and the victim wouldn die right away bleed death imagine cruel punishment not just painful you origionally stated about long term pain non short lived why this sudden chance your stance don think changed stance all original stance was that painless execution was not cruel one didn say what would considered cruel only that painless death wasn now cruelty must involve some sort suffering believe don think someone that gets shot the head electrocuted really suffers very much even hanging probably produces one sharp instance pain but over quickly hmmmmm pardon could that counter example has been made which renders your previous stance null and void why don you admit that your previous stance incorrect you somehow managed slip and misstated your origional stance why not admit well again stated that painless death isn cruel but don think stated that all painful executions are cruel think that some are cruel depending the nature and duration the pain the way how long too long anything more than instant guess any death suffocation asphyxiation blood loss would cruel think this includes the gas chamber and drawing and quartering say that any pain that lasts say over twenty seconds would too long but this may arbitrary cutoff suppose keith
alt.atheism	christian morality dan schaertel dps nasa kodak com wrote article ousrvr oulu kempmp phoenix oulu petri pihko writes love god just much she loves she wants seduce she know what but she did you would probably consider rape course not would think that would great fun not having ever felt the joy and peace the christians speak with longing gaze this not what got when believed just tried hide fear getting punished for something never was sure the bible hopelessly confusing for someone who wants know for sure god did not answer the end found had been following mass delusion lie can believe being who refuses give slightest hint her existence obviously there are many christians who have tried and believe suggest they should honestly reconsider the reasons why they believe and analyse their position fact amusing note this context that many fundamentalist publications tell exactly the opposite one should not examine one belief critically tell you something left out testimony posted this group two months ago day after finally found out faith over decided try just one more time the same cycle emotional responses fired once again but this time the delusion lasted only couple hours told friend phone that really works thank god just think about again when hung had admit that had lied and fallen prey the same illusion one asks you swallow everything fact jesus warns against but let ask you question you beleive what you learn history class for that matter anything school mean just what other people have told you and you don want swallow what others say right used believe what read books when was younger what other people told but grew more and more skeptical the more read learned what means use reason student chemistry had perform qualitative analysis mixture two organic compounds the lab hated experiments like this they are old fashioned and increase the student workload considerably besides had twice since failed first attempt however think never forget the lesson matter how strongly you believe the structure the unknown may still very tempting jump into conclusions take leap faith assure oneself ignore the data which inconsistent but can still wrong found out that was after all using exactly the same mechanism believe god mental self assurance suspension fear filtering information other words was only god playing any part the life death and resurection christ documented historical fact and had better believe this dan many ufo stories are much better documented than the resurrection jesus the resurrection documented quite haphazardly the bible seems the authors did not pay too much attention which wild rumour leave out besides the ends the gospels probably contain later additions and insertions for instance the end mark missing from many early texts says bible jesus may have lived and died but was probably misunderstood much anything else you learn how you choose what believe and what not this easy believe that the world exists independent mind and that logic and reason can used interpret and analyse what observe nothing else need taken faith will the evidence makes difference whether believe george washington existed not assume that did considering the vast amount evidence presented there way get into sceptical heart you can not say you have given sincere effort with the attitude you seem have you must trust not just church and participate activities were you ever willing die for what you believed liar how you know what attitude was try reading your bible again was willing die for faith those who are usually remembered heroes least among those who believe dan you think lying when say believed firmly for years seems very difficult admit that someone who has really believed does not anymore but can lying myself blind trust dangerous and was just another blind led the blind but god really wants she know what willing just don know whether she exists looking the available evidence looks like she doesn petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics the truth pihatie finou oulu physics the rule oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu chemistry the game
alt.atheism	upi mother files complaint over boy scouts default followups newsgroups short excerpt brookfield wis upi mother has filed complaint with the elmbrook school board alleging her son elementary school and its parent teacher organization show discrimination supporting the boy scouts gisele klemp said wednesday the pto sponsorship boy scout troop and cub scout pack that meet hillside elementary school surbarban milwaukee discrimination because the boy scouts ban homosexuals pto president gail pludeman disputed the charges discrimination and said she believes the boy scouts are beneficial carl kadie not represent any organization this just kadie uiuc edu
alt.atheism	free moral agency article darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes okay all humans are direct descendents bunch hopeful monsters the human race didn evolve from one set parents but from thousands you really base your atheist this article darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes truly brilliant rebuttal apparently you are the opinion that ridicule suitable substitute for reason you find plenty company bill conner meet bill conner jon
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality article kmr cwru edu kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes only when the sun starts orbit the earth will accept the bible did you forget that two spinning skaters are orbit around each other
alt.atheism	you will all hell article apr wam umd edu willdb wam umd edu william david battles says article apr ncsu edu aiken news ncsu edu wayne nmi aiken writes jsn psuvm psu edu wrote you blashephemers you will all hell for not believing god prepared for your eternal damnation did someone leave their terminal unattended again probably not the jesus freak post probably jsn psuvm penn state just loaded the hilt with bible bangers use there vomit and was the reason left they even had group try stop playing rock music the dining halls one year cuz they deemed satanic kampus krusade for khrist people run the damn place for the most part except the liberal arts departments they are the safe havens sounds like you were going different penn state something kampus krusade for khrist very vocal here but they really have little power get anything done sometimes seems like there are lot them because they generally more vocal than their opposition but there really aren that many krusaders the liberals tend keep themselves they can help since all they really want allowed about their own lives the way they want you don hear from about most them the bible bangers stand out because they want everyone forced live according bible banger rules the krusaders certainly don run this place say got rather average mix people here much like the rest the and just like everywhere else some factions are louder than others andrew
alt.atheism	free moral agency article darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes the myth which refer the convoluted counterfeit athiests have created make religion appear absurd rather than approach religion including christainity rational manner and debating its claims the are stated atheists concoct outrageous parodies and then hold the religious accountable for beliefs they don have what more accurately oxymoric the term like reasonable atheist they are religious parodies not atheistic paradies please substantiate that they are parodies and are outrageous specifically why the iup any more outrageous than many religions private note jennifer fakult this post may contain one more the following sarcasm cycnicism irony humor please aware this possibility and not allow yourself confused and thrown for loop doubt assume all the above the owners this account not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability recognize any the above read your own risk jennifer
alt.atheism	cruel article bkpinno gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes well again stated that painless death isn cruel but don think stated that all painful executions are cruel think that some are cruel depending the nature and duration the pain but hanging certainly painful you not let the condemned know they are going die anything more than instant guess any death suffocation asphyxiation blood loss would cruel think this includes the gas chamber and drawing and quartering say that any pain that lasts say over twenty seconds would too long but this may arbitrary cutoff suppose hanging not supposed very pleasant believe that actuality not quick and clean however gas chambers can quite non painful heck why not give them good time suffication nitrious oxide private note jennifer fakult this post may contain one more the following sarcasm cycnicism irony humor please aware this possibility and not allow yourself confused and thrown for loop doubt assume all the above the owners this account not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability recognize any the above read your own risk jennifer
alt.atheism	books stuff about hard find atheist books deleted perhaps the infiltration fundies onto school boards city councils etc has something with why you can find alternative media
alt.atheism	cults religions bill ray ray engr latech edu wrote james thomas green jgreen trumpet calpoly edu wrote conclusion can shown that there essentially logical argument which clearly differentiates cult from religion challenge anyone produce distinction which clear and can easily knocked down how about this one religion cult which has stood the test time just like history written the winners and not the losers from what seen religions religion just cult that was vile and corrupt was able exert doctrine using political and military measures perhaps koresh withstood the onslaught for another couple months would have started attracting more converts due his strength hence becoming full religion and not just cult carl christensen dept computer science christen astro ocis temple edu temple university curiouser and curiouser philadelphia usa
alt.atheism	nicknames cmtan iss nus tan chade meng dan writes somebody forgotten nickname tan chade meng chinese have nicknames the front the unenlightened one thought your nickname was unenlightened maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california kids please don try this home remember post professionally
alt.atheism	asimov stamp article dcs pdc dcs paul crowley writes quoting schnitzi eustis ucf edu mark schnitzius article schnitzi eustis sure all the religious types would get snit due asimov atheism can someone confirm this someone told that asimov converted christianity some point something does anyone have any good quotes what absolutely not way asimov was lifelong atheist and said many times right until his death judging from the many stories told about his own life felt culturally closest judaism which makes sense was born jewish wente llnl gov
alt.atheism	free moral agency dean kaflowitz decay cbnewsj att com wrote think you letting atheist mythology great start realize immediately that you are not interested discussion and are going thump your babble would much prefer answer from healy who seems have reasonable and reasoned approach things say aren you the creationist guy who made lot silly statements about evolution some time ago duh gee then must talking christian mythology now was hoping discuss something with reasonable logical person but all you seem have for your side repetition the same boring mythology seen thousand times before deleting the rest your remarks unless spot something that approaches answer because they are merely repetition some uninteresting doctrine other and contain thought all have congratulate you though bill you wouldn know logical argument bit you the balls such persistent lack function the face repeated attempts assist you learning which have seen this forum and others the past speaks talent that goes well beyond own meager abilities just don seem have that capacity for ignoring outside influences dean kaflowitz dean read your comments you think that merely characterizing argument the same refuting you think that hominum attacks are sufficient make any point other than you disapproval you have any contribution make all bill
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality mark mccullough mccullou snake wisc edu wrote article ursa bear com halat pooh bears jim halat writes atoms are not objective they aren even real what scientists call atom nothing more than mathematical model that describes certain physical observable properties our surroundings all which subjective jim halat this deserves framing really does atoms aren even real tell then those atoms have seen with electron microscopes are atoms now what are they figments our imaginations the evidence that atoms are real overwhelming but won bother with most evidence the moment you would have believe that what the eye perceives images are actaully there perceived this may interesting thought that electron microscope was used because wavelength light can illuminate any object atomic scale this image have useful resolution wouldn the illuminating sources wavelength have several orders magnitude less than size thing observed atom probablity cloud lower resolutions would give the appearance solidity but seems fairly certain that atom not object any conventional sense obviously not physicist but the question does have ramification philosophic nature anyway just stray thought carry bill
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality mike cobb cobb alexia lis uiuc edu wrote very true length time for discussions creationism evolutionism atheists and christians have been debating since and still debate with unabated passion mike seen referrences creation evolution several times and have question either point view derived from direct observation can either scientific wonder the whole controversy more concerned with the consequences the truth rather than the truth itself both sides seem hold philosophical outcome and can help wondering which came first pointed out elsewhere view human nature makes believe that there way knowing anyhthing objectively all knowledge inherently subjective the context would you take stand based what you actually know true what you want true and how can you tell the difference bill
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com wrote article darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner wrote say that what one chooses observe and how the observation interpreted and what significance given depends great deal the values the observer science human activity and such subject the same potential for distortion any other human activity the myth that scientists are above moral influence ethical concern that their knowledge can abstacted whole and pure from nature untainted the biases the scientist nonsense bill this wonderfully phrased assume you understand that your statement also undermining such human constructs religion well kent accept this compliment although always little paranoid when visiting thanks yes know the extent the statements relevence what think human nature not sure undermines either religion atheism since both claim special knowledge about the truth and since such claims are always suspect all can learn from that humans are very arrogant species point that cannot ignore human nature when examining human claims the trick here then find some way abstract our infinitely fallible nature from whatever reality out there can see what there see can think way this can done bill
alt.atheism	what shit shoveler was amusing atheists and robert beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com wrote precisely position newbie tried the point point approach debate with these types wasted both time and lifespan ignoring them not option since they don away and doing would leave one with large stretches complete anonymity this group bob posted here long enough see your name few times but can recall any point point approach anything you contributed but old probably senile and may have just forgotten you could post example your invincible logic might jog memory bill
alt.atheism	free energy technology free energy technology robert mcelwaine physicist ninety hundred years ago everybody knew that heavier than air machine could not possibly fly would violate the laws physics all the experts and authorities said for example simon newcomb declared the demonstration that possible combination known substances known forms machinery and known forms force can united practical machine which man shall fly long distances through the air seems the writer complete possible for the demonstration any physical fact fortunately few smart people such the wright brothers did not accept such pronouncements the final word now take airplanes for granted except when they crash today orthodox physicists and other scientists are saying similar things against several kinds free energy technologies using negative terms such pseudo science and perpetual motion and citing called laws which assert that energy cannot created destroyed law thermodynamics and there always decrease useful energy law thermodynamics the physicists not know how certain things they arrogantly declare that those things cannot done such principles impotence are common orthodox modern science and help cover inconsistencies and contradictions orthodox modern theories free energy inventions are devices which can tap seemingly unlimited supply energy from the universe with out burning any kind fuel making them the perfect solution the world wide energy crisis and its associated pollution degradation and depletion the environment most free energy devices probably not create energy but rather tap into existing natural energy sources various forms induction unlike solar wind devices they need little energy storage capacity because they can tap much energy needed when needed solar energy has the dis advantage that the sun often blocked clouds trees buildings the earth itself reduced haze smog thick atmosphere low altitudes and high latitudes likewise wind speed widely variable and often non existent neither solar nor wind power are suitable directly power cars and airplanes properly designed free energy devices not have such limitations for example least three patents and have far been awarded for motors that run exclusively permanent magnets seemingly tapping into energy circulating through the earth magnetic field the first two require feedback network order self running the third one described detail science mechanics magazine spring amazing magnet powered motor jorma hyypia pages and front cover requires critical sizes shapes orientations and spacings magnets but feedback such motor could drive electric generator reversible heatpump one home year round for free complete descriptive copies patents are each from the patent office jefferson davis hwy arlington correct digit patent number required try getting copies both the article and the patents via your local public university library inter library loan dept second type free energy device such the gray motor patent the tesla coil and the motor inventor joseph newman see science pages taps electro magnetic energy induction from earth resonance about cycles per second plus harmonics they typically have spark gap the circuit which serves synchronize the energy the coils with the energy being tapped important that the total inductance and capacitance the device combine resonate the same frequency earth resonance order maximize the power output this output can also increased centering the spark gap the neutral center strong shaped permanent magnet the case tesla coil slipping toroid choke coil around the secondary coil will enhance output power earth energy fuelless propulsion power systems john bigelow health research box mokelumne hill during the austrian civil engineer named viktor schauberger invented and partially developed implosion turbine german name zokwendle after analyzing erosion and lack erosion differently shaped waterways and developing sophisticated mathematical equations explain described the book breakthrough new free energy sources dan davidson water pumped impeller pump through logarithmic spiral shaped coil tubing until reaches critical velocity the water then implodes longer touching the inside walls the tubing and drives the pump which then converts the pump motor into electric generator the device seems tapping energy from that the earth rotation via the coriolis effect like tornado can also neutralize gravity fourth type free energy device the mcclintock air motor patent which cross between diesel engine has three cylinders with compression ratio and rotary engine with solar and planetary gears burns fuel but becomes self running driving its own air compressor this engine also generates lot heat which could used heat buildings and its very high torque makes ideal for large trucks preventing their slowing down when climbing hills david mcclintock also the real original inventor the automatic transmission differential and wheel drive crystals may someday used supply energy shown the star trek shows perhaps inserting each one between metal capacitor plates and bombarding with beam particles from small radioactive source like that used common household smoke detector one other energy source should mentioned here despite the fact that does not fit the definition free energy bulgarian born american physicist named joseph maglich has invented and partially developed atomic fusion reactor which calls migma which uses non radioactive deuterium fuel available nearly unlimited quantities from sea water does not produce radioactive waste can converted directly into electricity with out energy wasting steam turbines and can constructed small enough power house large enough power city and unlike the tokamaks and laser fusion monstrosities that read about migma works already producing least three watts power for every watt put new times version pages and then there are the cold fusion experiments that have been the news lately originally conducted university utah researchers stanley pons and martin fleischmann some navy researchers the china lake naval weapons center california under the direction chemist melvin miles finally took the trouble collect the bubbles coming from such apparatus had them analyzed with mass spectrometry techniques and found helium which proves that atomic fusion did indeed take place and enough explain the excess heat generated there are good indications that the two called laws thermodynamics are not absolute for example the late physicist dewey larson developed comprehensive general unified theory the physical universe which calls the reciprocal system which describes detail several books such nothing but motion and the universe motion which the physical universe has two distinct halves the material half and anti matter half with continuous cycle matter and energy passing between them with out the heat death predicted thermodynamic laws his theory explains the universe much better than modern orthodox theories including phenomena that orthodox physicists and astronomers are still scratching their heads about and self consistent every way some free energy devices might tapping into that energy flow seemingly converting low quality energy into high quality energy also certain religious organizations such sant mat and eckankar teach their members that the physical universe only the lowest least dozen major levels existence like parallel universes analogous channels described books like the path the masters julian johnson and eckankar the key secret worlds sri paul twitchell for example the next level from the physical universe commonly called the astral plane long time members these groups have learned soul travel into these higher worlds and report conditions there seems plausible that energy could flow down from these higher levels into the physical universe created the boundary between them given the right configuration matter channel this supported many successful laboratory controlled experiments psycho kinesis throughout the world such those described the book psychic discoveries behind the iron curtain terms economics the market has failed inventors not have enough money and other resources fully develop and mass produce free energy equipment and the conventional energy producer have desire because their ted intere the government needed intervene the government does not intervene then the total supply energy resources from the earth will continue decline and will soon run out prices for energy will increase and pollution and its harmful effects including the greenhouse effect acid rain smog radioactive contamination oil spills rape the land strip mining etc will continue increase the government should subsidize research and development free energy inventors and universities subsidize private production until the producers can make their own and subsidize consumption low income consumers free energy hardware the long range effects such government intervention would wide spread and profound the quantity energy demanded from conventional energy producer coal mining companie oil companie and countries electric utilitie etc would drop near zero forcing their employees seek work elsewhere energy resources coal uranium oil and gas would left the ground prices for conventional energy supplies would also drop near zero while the price free energy equipment would start out high but drop supply increases happened with vcr personal computers etc costs producing products that require large quantities energy produce would decrease along with their prices consumers consumers would able realize the opportunity costs paying electric utility bills buying home heating fuel tourism would benefit and increase because travelers would not have spend their money for gasoline for their cars government tax revenue from gasoline and other fuels would have obtained some other way and energy could longer used motive excuse for making war many conventional energy producer would out business but society whole and the earth environment and ecosystems would benefit greatly the people that government should serve rather than the big corporation and bank for more information answers your questions etc please consult cited sources patents articles books altered reproduction and dissemination this important information encouraged robert mcelwaine physics
alt.atheism	christian morality dan schaertel dps nasa kodak com wrote let back say years whatever pretend someone says you someday there will men the moon now remember you still think the world flat this quite extraordinary claim think lewis has argued that medieval people did not all think the world flat however this argument goes both ways pretend someone telling plato that highly probable that people not really have souls their minds and their consciousness are just something their brains make and their brains their body actually ahead their mind even voluntarly actions don think plato would have been happy with this and neither would paul although paul ideas were quite different however you would read what discuss this group and not just preach you would see that there currently much evidence favour these statements the same applies the theory natural selection other sacred cows christianity our origins and human nature don believe spirits devils immortal souls any more than gods the fact can argue the existence god until the end time there really way either prove disprove but there will time when all know the truth hope and believe right and hope and pray that you find your way too you said you believe what you want this what had assumed all along maybe shouldn have said way guess really believe there way but all can plant seeds either they grow they don you might well planting satan seeds ever thought this besides you haven yet explained why must believe blindly without any guiding light all least haven noticed don think this all fair play god part your argument sounds like version pascal wager please read the faq this fallacy discussed there but they won they not planted the holy spirit the nurishment that helps them grow and that comes from god and failed get help from the because had wrong attitude sorry dan but not think this spirit exists people who claim have access just look badly deluded not gifted petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics the truth pihatie finou oulu physics the rule oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu chemistry the game
alt.atheism	free moral agency bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes see that you still can grasp the obvious because your are devious nature can you only find fault with argument misrepresenting gee since you ignored the entire substance substantial post you got lot nerve claiming that don understand what being talked about respond the previous post shut the fuck you really annoying maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california kids please don try this home remember post professionally
alt.atheism	free energy technology article apr cnsvax uwec edu mcelwre cnsvax uwec edu writes free energy inventions are devices which can tap seemingly unlimited supply energy from the universe with out burning any kind fuel making them the perfect solution the world wide energy crisis and its associated pollution degradation and depletion the environment give call when you build working model then talk stock options private note jennifer fakult this post may contain one more the following sarcasm cycnicism irony humor please aware this possibility and not allow yourself confused and thrown for loop doubt assume all the above the owners this account not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability recognize any the above read your own risk jennifer
alt.atheism	the qur and atheists was jewish settlers demolish mosque gaza article apr doug cae wisc edu kahraman hprisc cae wisc edu gokalp kahraman writes this respect since atheists are dominantly arrogant and claim self control and self ownership they would make pharoahs look like very humble decent people comparison the logic this since own myself others who are like should also own themselves and going further things are self existent and self standing and self living etc yes atheists tend claim self control and self ownership are you saying that theists claim not have self control don think atheists are dominantly arrogant they don claim some god that has supremacy over all mankind now this claim would arrogant but atheists don claim most atheists claim own themselves think any disagreement with this claim self ownership would supremely arrogant john david munch jmunch hertz elee calpoly edu the heart can change full hate love people are allowed base their lives through their hearts anything can happen dangerous situation opinion bobby mozumder describing problems with atheism
alt.atheism	cults religions the media religion and cult have about the same relative connotations government and terrorist group wingate the peace god peace but strife closed the sod mangoe umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace god
alt.atheism	science and theories article news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes per various threads science and creationism started dabbling into book called christianity and the nature science moreland don know this book will use your heresay question that had come from one his comments stated that god not necessarily religious term but could used other scientific terms that give explanation for events theories without being proven scientific fact depends how defines god the way understand the meaning that term preclues being used useful way science ideas drawn from understanding that god supernatural precludes from forming scientific assertions that can falsified that where can decide that they are true false within the terms use and useful observations drawn from them some religionists have interest bluring the definitions within science make them more reconcilable and especially subserviant basic way religious dogma this pursuit always fails think got his point can quote the section being vague the examples gave were quarks and continental plates are there explanations science parts theories that are not measurable and themselves can everything quantified measured tested etc reconciliation science with religion involves circumventing the tendancy claim that either pursuit can gain absolute certian knowledge that the domain truth each fundementally limited some way gererally confurs the element uncertainty and limitations human knowledge while allowing for the different concerns these separate pursuits science and religion ask different questions which have imperfect and provisional answers best science distinctly limited where can ask meaningful questions more questions can posed than can answer the basis sacred language the place where words fail and mere assertions disolve contradiction bruce salem
alt.atheism	little too satanic jon livesey writes when they took the time copy the text correctly that includes obvious corruptions well yes this the real mystery the matter and why rather dubious lot the source theories there are number places where the masoretic text the obscure and presumably corrupted these are reproduced exactly from copy copy the dss tend reflect the same errors this would appear tell that least from some point people began copy the texts very exactingly and mechanically the problem don know what they did before that but seems though accurate transmission begins the point which the texts are perceived texts they may added and some situations such the end mark material lost but for the most part there are substantial changes the existing text you basically trying make mountain out molehill some people like use the game telephone metaphor for the transmission the texts this clearly wrong the texts are transmitted accurately wingate the peace god peace but strife closed the sod mangoe umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace god
alt.atheism	albert sabin from wpr atlanta com bill rawlins newsgroups alt atheism organization dgsid atlanta since you have referred the messiah assume you are referring the new testament please detail your complaints mail you don want post first century greek well known and well understood have you considered josephus the jewish historian who also wrote jesus addition the four gospel accounts are very much harmony also well known that the comments josephus relating jesus were inserted badly later editors for the four gospels being harmony the issue jesus you know not what you speak here are few contradictions starting with the trial and continuing through the assension the death judas after the betrayal jesus acts now this man judas purchased field with the reward iniquity and falling headlong burst asunder the midst and all his bowels gushed out matt and judas cast down the pieces silver the temple and departed and went and hanged himself and the chief priests bought with them the potter field what was jesus prediction regarding peter denial before the cock crow matthew before the cock crow twice mark how many times did the cock crow mar and the second time the cock crew and peter called mind the word that jesus said unto him before the cock crow twice thou shalt deny thrice and when thought thereon wept mat then began curse and swear saying know not the man and immediately the cock crew mat and peter remembered the word jesus which said unto him before the cock crow thou shalt deny thrice and went out and wept bitterly luk and peter said man know not what thou sayest and immediately while yet spake the cock crew luk and the lord turned and looked upon peter and peter remembered the word the lord how had said unto him before the cock crow thou shalt deny thrice joh jesus answered him wilt thou lay down thy life for sake verily verily say unto thee the cock shall not crow still thou hast denied thrice joh peter then denied again and immediately the cock crew destruction cities what said was jeremiah was zechariah this interesting because matthew quotes prophesy that was never made not the only time does this either mat then was fulfilled that which was spoken jeremy the prophet saying and they took the thirty pieces silver the price him that was valued whom they the children israel did value zechariah nothing jeremiah remotely like what was the color the robe placed jesus during his trial scarlet matthew purple john the time the crucifiction mark says the third hour but john says the sixth hour noon was when the sentence was passed inscription the cross matthew this jesus the king the jews mark the king the jews luke this the king the jews john jesus nazareth the king the jews what did they give him drink vinegar matthew wine with myrrh mark women the cross matthew said many stood far off including mary magdaline mary the mother james and the mother zebedee children mark and luke speak many far off and mark includes mary magdeline and mary the mother james the less john says that jesus mother stood the cross along with her sister and mary magdalene jesus last words matt and about the ninth hour jesus cried with loud voice saying eli eli lama sabachthani that say god god why hast thou forsaken jesus when cried again with loud voice yielded the ghost luke and when jesus had cried with loud voice said father unto thy hands commend spirit and having said thus gave the ghost john when jesus therefore had received the vinegar said finished and bowed his head and gave the ghost events the crucifiction matthew says that the veil the temple was rent that there was earthquake and that was dark from the sixth the ninth hour that graves opened and bodies the saints arose and went into jeruselem appearing many beating jesus the resurection mark and luke speak darkness and the veil the temple being rent but mention earthquake risen saints john the only one who mentions jesus side being peirced burial jesus matthew says the jews asked pilate for guard prevent the body from being stolen the disciples and for the tomb sealed all this was supposedly done but the other gospels not mention these precautions how long was jesus the tomb depends where you look matthew gives jesus prophesying that will spend three days and three nights the heart the earth and mark has after three days meta treis emeras will rise again far can see from quick look the prophecies have after three days but the post resurrection narratives have the third day time the resurection matthew says sunday dawn mark says the sun was rising and john says was dark who was the empty tomb mat the end the sabbath began dawn toward the first day the week came mary magdalene and the other mary see the sepulchre mar and when the sabbath was past mary magdalene and mary the mother james and salome had bought sweet spices that they might come and anoint him joh the first day the week cometh mary magdalene early when was yet dark unto the sepulchre and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre whom did they see the tomb mat and behold there was great earthquake for the angel the lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone from the door and sat upon mat his countenance was like lightning and his raiment white snow mat and for fear him the keepers did shake and became dead men mat and the angel answered and said unto the women fear not for know that seek jesus which was crucified mar and entering into the sepulchre they saw young man sitting the right side clothed long white garment and they were affrighted luk and came pass they were much perplexed thereabout behold two men stood them shining garments joh and seeth two angels white sitting the one the head and the other the feet where the body jesus had lain belief that the disciples stole jesus body matthew says the guard was paid tell this story but other gospel makes this claim appearences the risen jesus matthew says angel the tomb told the two marys and that jesus also told them tell the disciples meet him galilee the disciples then went mountain previously agreed opon and met jesus there this was his only appearance except the women the tomb matthew only devotes five verses the visit with the disciples mark says that jesus walked with two the disciples the country and that they told the rest the disciples who refused believe later appeared the disciples mealtime luke says two followers went the same day that jesus rose from the dead emmaus village eight miles from jeruselem and there jesus jioned them but was unrecognised while they ate meal together that evening they finally recognised jesus whereopon dissapeared returning once jeruselem they told the disciples their experience and suddenly jesus appeared among them frightening them they thought was spirit jesus then ate some fish and honey and then preached them john says jesus appeared the disciples the evening the day arrose jeruselem where they were hiding breathed the holy ghost opon them but thomas was not present and refused believe eight days later jesus joined the disciples again the same place and this time convinced thomas once more jesus made appearance the disciples the sea tiberias but again was not recognised after telling them cast their netson the other side the boat jesus becomes known them and prepares bread and fish for them they all eat together and converse the book acts further adds the confusion says that jesus showed himself the apostles for period days after his resurection thus contradicting matthew mark luke and john and spoke them things pertaining the kingdom god and when had spoken these things while they beheld was taken and cloud recieved him out their sight and while they looked steadfastly toward heaven went two men stood them white apparel which also said men galilee why stand gazing into heaven this same jesus which taken from you into heaven shall comein like manneras have seen him into heaven acts paul outdoes every other authority saying that jesus was seen persons between the time the resurection and the assension although does not say where also claims that himself one born out due time also saw jesus cor the ascension matthew says nothing about mark casually says that jesus was recieved into heaven after was finished talking with the disciples jeruselem luke says jesus led the desciples bethany and that while blessed them was parted from them and carried into heaven john says nothing about acts contradicts all the above see previous section when second coming mat verily say unto you this generation shall not pass till all these things fulfilled mar verily say unto you that this generation shall not pass till all these things done luk verily say unto you this generation shall not pass away till all fulfilled thessalonians how many apostles were office between the resurection and ascention corinthians matthew minus one from acts mathias not elected until after resurrection mat then the eleven disciples went away into galilee into mountain where jesus had appointed them ascend heaven and elijah went whirlwind into heaven kings man hath ascended heaven but that came down from heaven the son man john you can see there are number contradictions the account the trial crucifiction and resurection jesus these are good witnesses you would think that they could get some these important details right fact cannot find very many points where they agree you would think that they could least agree some the points they were supposedly observing because the fact that there much contradiction and error the story the resurection presented cannot taken literal truth due the nature the story doubt should taken any sort truth alan
alt.atheism	albert sabin from wpr atlanta com bill rawlins newsgroups alt atheism organization dgsid atlanta the problem that most scientists exclude the possibility the supernatural the question origins this fair premise utterly reject the hypothesis that science the highest form truth better than the crap that the creationists put out far all they have been able manage distortions and half truths when they are not taking quotes out context some these called human like creatures were apes some were humans some were fancifully reconstructed from fragments the genetic code has shown more about how man realted primates that the fossil record little detail the creationists try and ignore good deeds not justify person god sight atonement jesus needed atone for sin who says your bible would surprised any christian followed all the rules the bible most them just pick and choose according the local biases point god the creator look like agree where your proof how you know was your god send you some info via mail regards bill why not post them would interested seeing them myself alan
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality theory creationism theistic view the theory creationism there are many others stated genesis the beginning god created the heavens and the earth and which order creation you accept the story creation one the many places the bible where the story contradicts itself the following example gen and god made the beast the earth after his kind and cattle after their kind and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind and god saw that was good gen and god said let make man our image after our likeness and let them have dominion over the fish the sea and over the fowl the air and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth gen and the lord god said not good that the man should alone will make him help meet for him gen and out the ground the lord god formed every beast the field and every fowl the air and brought them unto adam see what would call them and whatsoever adam called every living creature that was the name thereof even your bible cannot agree how things were created why should believe alan
alt.atheism	some thoughts from house helios usq edu ron house newsgroups alt atheism organization university southern queensland bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes first want start right out and say that christian know shouldn get involved but bit deleted the book says that jesus was either liar was crazy modern day koresh was actually who said was rest rant deleted this standard argument for fundies can you spot the falicy the statement arguing from the assumption that jesus actually existed far they have not been able offer real proof that existance most them try using the very flawed writings josh mcdowell and others prove but those writers use very flawed sources they are real sources all some are not when will they ever learn real research instead believing the drivel sold the christian bookstores righto dan try this one with your cornflakes the book says that muhammad was either liar was crazy modern day mad mahdi was actually who said was some reasons why wouldn liar are follows who would die for lie wouldn people able tell was liar people gathered around him and kept doing many gathered from hearing seeing how his son law made the sun stand still call fool but believe did make the sun stand still niether was lunatic would more than entire nation drawn someone who was crazy very doubtful fact rediculous for example anyone who drawn the mad mahdi obviously fool logical people see this right away therefore since wasn liar lunatic must have been the real thing nice rebutal alan
alt.atheism	help you god court bobbe vice robert beauchaine yayg pontificated guess don understand the problem never had any problem swearing and using the name god the same sentence comes quite naturally matter facxt would guess that you either mean that you don have problem swearing aligance non existant being that you are being deliberatily dense considering what group this doesn come quite naturally nonbelievers such myself even followers other religions would you say would quite natural you were forced swear allah budda james green jgreen oboe calpoly edu all times and all nations the priest has been hostile liberty thomas jefferson
alt.atheism	alleged deathbed conversions was asimov stamp article sheafferc brs netcom com sheaffer netcom com robert sheaffer writes had happen the old allegation the deathbed conversion the noted unbeliever other examples what all these deathbed conversion claims have common that they are utterly unsubstantiated and almost certainly untrue would not too quick say that they are almost certainly untrue even strong minded people may fall back childhood indoctrination grasp straws other strange things when faced with extreme suffering not mention physiological problems which may lead diminished mental capacity the risk restarting old argument and accusations appeal authority remind readers what posted while back kind obituary for the late atheist albert sabin old interview rebroadcast public radio just after his death told about time few years before when was stricken with very serious illness admitted having cried out god while critically ill and respirator turned out recovered and lived several more years after his recovery attributed this early indoctrination don say couldn happen you that hasn happened others even you are one the few people who have experienced things like this people are different admire sabin for admitting his human weakness that instance would not think less asimov for similar weakness nevertheless agree that these reports are unsubstantiated and may well untrue any case they are not evidence for anything besides the power early indoctrination and human frailty bill mayne
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes deletion that was the original answer while does not say that has the head necessarily its ass would meaningless and pointless was not insinuated don see header referring bob the poster whom was responding distinctly remember thinking was responding you when wrote this which case would make apologies but the event that was fact responding bob hereby apologize bob for insinuating such thing sorry bob the other hand could that ben has his head far his ass that can tell himself from bob sorry gregg was answer post mine and you are quite fond using abusing language whenever you think your religion misrepresented the way have trouble telling apart from bob beauchaine still wait for your answer that the quran allows you beat your wife into submission you were quite upset about the claim that was more correct you said wasn asked you about what your consequences were case would the quran but you have simply ceased respond that thread can that you have found out the meantime that the holy book what are your consequences now was your being upset just show you simple inherit your morals from book suddenly now correct say that the words muhammad reflect the primitive machism his society have you spent your time with your new gained freedom benedikt
alt.atheism	alleged deathbed conversions was asimov stamp article panix com carlf panix com carl fink writes sheafferc brs netcom com sheaffer netcom com robert sheaffer writes deletion had happen the old allegation the deathbed conversion the noted unbeliever seem recall similar claims being made about voltaire mencken darwin ingersoll etc indeed the literary hoax attributed nietzsche sister and portrays him trembling fear before divine judgment and was recently issued amok books with introduction lutheran professor telling why should take seriously what all these deathbed conversion claims have common that they are utterly unsubstantiated and almost certainly untrue perhaps the least believable and most infurating alleged conversion was that tom paine reported like most only his devout relatives asimov was very unlikely convert christianity his deathbed return judaism perhaps did revert childhood training but christianity the good doctor would more likely have converted hinduism isaac asimov read creationist books read the bible had ample opportunity kneel before his creator and savior refused fact sent out strong promotional letter urging support the american humanist association shortly before died excerpt from ken ham asimov meets his creator back genesis june included acts facts vol june from the institute for creation research this one the most offensive articles they ever published but least argues against deathbed conversion there part the article even worse than what just quoted which excerpt from reader letter says that asimov burning hell now then certainly has had degree change his former beliefs about creation and the creator post deathbed conversion jim lippard lippard ccit arizona edu dept philosophy lippard arizvms bitnet university arizona tucson
comp.graphics	quicktime performance was rumours about with all the discussion about observed playback speeds with quicktime the effects scaling and thought some more tests first all felt that original speed test was perhaps less than realistic the movie had been using only had frames was version the very first movie created with the compact video compressor decided something little longer would give closer real world results for better for worse pulled out copy space odyssey that had recorded off while back about fifteen minutes into the movie there sequence where the earth shuttle approaching the space station specifically digitized portion about seconds duration zooming the rotating space station figured this would give reasonable amount movement between frames increase the differences between frames digitized only frames per second give total frames captured the raw footage resolution pixels with the spigot card centris quarter size resolution from pal source then imported into premiere and put through the compact video compressor keeping the fps frame rate created two versions the movie one scaled resolution the other resolution used the default quality setting premiere and specified key frame every ten frames then ran the movie through the same raw speed test program used for the results been reporting earlier result playback rate over frames per second that right was getting much higher result than with that first short test movie just for fun copied the movie external hard disk quantum and ran from there this time the playback rate was only about frames per second obviously the internal hard disk also quantum significant contributor the speed playback modified speed test program allow the specification optional scaling factors and tried playing back the movie scaled size this time the playback speed was over fps clearly the poster who observed poor performance scaled playback was seeing quicktime action not try tests with quicktime but don think entirely compatible with centris and system unscaled the playback rate for the movie was over fps the other thing tried was saving versions the movie with preferred playback rates greater than and seeing how well they played from within movieplayer with quicktime normal synchronized playback preferred rate fps didn work too well the playback was very jerky compare this with the raw speed test which achieved fps with ease can believe that quicktime synchronization code would add this much overhead think the slowdown was coming from the mac system task switching preferred rate fps seemed work fine couldn see any evidence stutter fps think could see slight stutter but with four key frames every second was hard tell guess could try recreating the movies with longer interval between the key frames make the stutter more noticeable course this will also improve the compression slightly which should speed the playback performance even more lawrence oliveiro fone computer services dept fax university waikato electric mail ldo waikato hamilton new zealand gmt
comp.graphics	icn msdos pbm pgm ppm format have many icons iconedit and pbicon format and would like convert them pbm pgm ppm format you know the formats iconedit pbicon thank for your help rene kiwi iis ethz
comp.graphics	bit graphics howdy all oehler yar wisc edu wonko the sane writes was recently talking possible employer mine and made reference bit graphics computer image processing system seem remember being called image something akin that anyway claimed had bit color bit alpha channel that bits info what could that possibly for specifically the bit color that trillion colors many more than the human eye can resolve this anti aliasing thing this just some magic number make work better with certain processor hmm bit aye well beats bit design for thee sake ellegance bit means bits per primary colour the colours bit misleading makes more sense see possible shades pure red this might actually make some sense since shades red bit colours may produce visible jumps intensity then again byte per primary colour for each pixel the most elegant way doing colour graphics because leaves such tidy and fast program code take care bram flying nack the trick bram stolk stolk fwi uva throw yourself the ground dept maths computer science and miss douglas adams university amsterdam dont use windoze prefer linux
comp.graphics	help need bits viewer looking for program which able display bits images are using sun sparc equipped with parallax graphics board running thanks advance
comp.graphics	human body data sets needed urgently all looking for datasets human body head any the popular formats doing presentation tomorrow which could greatly enhanced bringing this human factor looked around the net with sucess far anyone got any ideas also appreciate info the location datasets for the uss enterprise any model thanks advance ronan
comp.graphics	why does illustrator autotrace poorly mac utkvx bitnet richard mcdougald writes article vmcbrt diablo uucp diablo uucp cboesel charles boesel writes these application softwares using but even how come one hasn been written knowledge mean even hijaak one the commercial industry standards file conversion hasn attempted yet adobe streamline has been out four couple years does much better job than the autotracing functions which are built into illustration programs course higher resolution bitmap will produce more accurate trace the problem that run into though that when creates detailed trace produces way more points than are necessary trace something manually use many less points the problem with this produces big files which slow everything down especially printing chuck
comp.graphics	wanted scott leatham microsoft hello there few days ago got mail concerning bitmap stretching from scott leatham microsoft redmond usa really would like answer back him but have lost his email address scott anybody that knows his email address reads this please mail his address can answer his mail please mail efd lth thanks tomas
comp.graphics	pov problems with tga outputs remember that the unix versions pov don create tga but qrt file format output default needed make tga brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.graphics	pov ray problem please help what about qrttoppm file dis ppmtotga file tga brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.graphics	why does illustrator autotrace poorly mac utkvx bitnet richard mcdougald writes since there not really such thing decent raster vector conversion program this tracing technique about simple stuff like logos etc pretty well while more complicated stuff goes haywire the first and only thing ever tried auto trace was piece uscg nautical chart using adobe illustrator wanted get the outline the coast for western long island sound was simultaneously suprised how good job did and disappointed how poorly did suspect what gave was very difficult thing not only the coastline very irregular but overlaid the chart are numerous sets gridlines not only lattitude and longitude but loran grids well the most common mistake make was whenever the coastline was roughly parallel and tangent grid line would take off following the gridline instead the coast think the best improvement would some sort interactive algorithm that would let you step and say dummy you going the wrong way steve reisberg friend mine few years back did his doctoral work analysing electron micrographs filimentous phage virii good chunk the work was writing program take digitized micrograph and automatically trace the centerline the virus particles this essentially the same problem that illustrator tries solve with its auto trace tool some respects the problem steve worked was harder since was trying quantitative analysis the virus structure and finding good centerline was only the first step but step which all future analysis depended however other respects was easier problem since the program could written with lot knowledge about what the virus particles were supposed look like and the analysis could restricted those particles which happend relatively straight clean and well imaged you don always have that freedom auto tracing real life images any case gave some insight into just how difficult this problem solve the general case steve longer with and his wife disappeared while vacation hawaii couple years after they graduated their last known location was hiking densely wooded mountainous area while bodies were ever found they are presumed have been the victim some sort fall accident the woods roy smith roy nyu edu hippocrates project department microbiology coles nyu school medicine first avenue new york this never happened bart simpson
comp.graphics	rumours about johnm spudge lonestar org john munsch writes article lot rapnbh viamar uucp rutgers viamar kmembry writes read issue wired magazine has long article the hype noticed that every article talks with the designers and how great but never show any pictures the output least pictures that one can understand gamepro magazine published pictures few months ago and computer chronicles program that syndicated public stations around the nation spent several minutes when was shown ces was very impressive what can real time john munsch the april edition mix magazine carries story which includes pictures the unit schematic what inside and some indication from the people where they intend and what stages mix trade rag aimed the professional sound engineering community the schematic shows central dma engine connecting and mediating between two graphics animation processors bit bus bit risc processor with math processor video decomp module control port expansion port where hangs its double fast player dram optional video port for editing video and the outbound side vram video processor chain parallel with dsp sound chain they promise red book quality audio full fps video and future connection path your via expansion card not informed enough have opinion about the various means and methods discussed here the article written philip lancie does cover the other machines mentioned this thread come from the tcp world and see tremendous potential for bringing connectedness the educated consumer seems have the right business partners make this happen hope this helps david shute email dks world std com
comp.graphics	real earlier today read for real animation ray tracing software and looked very convincing however don own amiga and began wonder there version has anyone seen used real for dos rauno rene haapaniemi every word are true haapanatie except for those that are lies oulu reneh otol douglas adams
comp.graphics	hallusion info has anyone seen hallusions you can buy poster them and looks like simple dot pattern when you first look but you focus behind you see picture looking for program that generates these pictures there company texas that makes them but doubt they giving the program away any help would appreciated
comp.graphics	cgm something preferably pcx does anybody know about converter from cgm pcx anything else more common spent some time searching the archives with luck could you email your responses thx advance mike jupiter sun csd unb
comp.graphics	kubota kenai denali does anyone have any real experience with the kubota kenai denali series graphics workstations they pretty much blow the pants off sgi machines and sun machines the same price point which about bucks real nice stuff but only seen the stuff paper wondering there anything not like the specs are too massive get into here but summary desired could coaxed into uploading the spec sheet brian
comp.graphics	there ftp achive for usgs terrain dat try spectrum xerox com pub map dem
comp.graphics	real rauno haapaniemi raunoh otol wrote earlier today read for real animation ray tracing software and looked very convincing yes looks like very good indeed however don own amiga and began wonder there version nope regards email mattias matt dah dsv love
comp.graphics	fast polygon routine needed osprey cso uiuc edu lucas adamski writes article pdxgate uucp idr rigel pdx edu ian romanick writes what kind polygons shaded texturemapped more comes into play with fast routines than just polygons would nice know exaclty what system vga start but what processor and few the specifics the implementation you need give more info you want get any answers don want texture mapped cause did asked for them just simple and fast routine filled polygons for the processor for minimum maybe can find good one for ideally want polyn function that can clip user defined viewport and write arbitrary location memory course the chances for game that and you have listed the characteristics that you are looking for think you may have left out few important parameters the polygons are all convex they have less than sides you are drawing meshes walls doors etc believe that the algorithms you can get that will only draw convex polygons can much more efficient than those that can draw concave self intersecting polygons this efficiency can largely attributed the fact that simple convex polygons only have left and right edge each scan line complex figure type polygons can bit trickier the less than sides specification especially very small number like allow othe optimisations made thus for high speed game application think you are looking for code that exploits and hence limited drawing simple convex polygons finding something like that are pretty remote guess need the source with and guess would need asm otherwise too slow seen some polygon routines and they all been waaay too slow its for vector graphics program been hunting high and low may have been that they were very general purpose algorithms you limit yourself four sided simple convex polygons think you might suprised how fast algorithm with asm block move fill each scan line might actually for polyn function asm and can find one anywhere that can use found one two polyn functions but asm pretty bad won even try rewrite them lucas
comp.graphics	apr comp graphics frequently asked questions faq archive name graphics faq this message automatically posted once week effort cut down the repetitive junk comp graphics was last changed apr you have answers other frequently asked questions that you would like included this posting please send mail you don want see this posting every week please add the subject line your kill file thank you your copy the faq more than couple weeks old you may want seek out the most recent version the latest version this faq always available the archive site pit manager mit edu alias rtfm mit edu pub usenet news answers graphics faq john john grieggs grieggs jpl devvax jpl nasa gov johng portal com last update apr sorry haven posted this for couple weeks but was called out town due death the family this reality folks what new siggraph online bibliography project spencer cgrg ohio state edu grieggs jpl devvax jpl nasa gov contents general references for graphics questions drawing three dimensional objects two dimensional screen quantizing bit images down bits converting color into grayscale quantizing grayscale black white rotating raster image arbitrary angle free image manipulation software format documents for tiff iff biff nff off fits etc converting between vector formats how get pixar films how draw circle bezier spline curve how order standards documents how ftp email how tell whether point within planar polygon how tessellate sphere specific references ray tracing and global illumination siggraph information online siggraph panels proceedings available graphics mailing lists specific references file formats what about gif what morphing how ray trace height fields how find the area polygon how join acm siggraph where can find mri and scan volume data specific references spatial data structures including quadtrees and octrees where can get program plot data data specific references pex and phigs siggraph online bibliography project general references for graphics questions computer graphics principles and practice foley van dam feiner hughes addison wesley isbn procedural elements for computer graphics david rogers mcgraw hill isbn mathematical elements for computer graphics david rogers and alan adams mcgraw hill isbn three dimensional computer graphics alan watt addison wesley isbn introduction ray tracing andrew glassner academic press isbn graphics gems andrew glassner academic press isbn graphics gems james arvo academic press isbn graphics gems iii david kirk academic press isbn with ibm disk with mac disk digital image warping george wolberg ieee computer society press monograph isbn digital image processing rafael gonzalez paul wintz addison wesley isbn programmer geometry adrian bowyer john woodwark butterworths isbn pbk automatic mail handler brown university allows users computer graphics principles and practice foley van dam feiner and hughes obtain text errata and information distribution the software packages described the book also users can send the authors feedback report text errors and software bugs make suggestions and submit exercises receive information describing how you can use the mail handler simply mail graphtext brown edu and put the word help the subject line use the subject line software distribution receive information specifically concerning the software packages srgp and sphigs errata for introduction ray tracing available wuarchive wustl edu graphics graphics books introtort errata errata for digital image warping the same directory digital image warping errata all code from the graphics gems series available via anonymous ftp from princeton edu look the directory pub graphics graphicsgems for the various volumes gems gemsii gemsiii and get the readme file first errata graphics gems and graphics gems available wuarchive wustl edu graphics graphics books list computer graphics computational geometry and image processing journals available from juhana kouhia tut drawing three dimensional objects two dimensional screen the simple answer you divide the depth for more verbose explanation see any the above references starting with the foley van dam feiner hughes computer graphics book certainly good start chapter viewing then read chapter visible surface determination for more information chapter for shading chapter for clipping and branch out from there quantizing bit images down bits find copy color image quantization for frame buffer display paul heckbert siggraph proceedings page there are other algorithms but this one works well and fairly simple implementations are included most raster toolkits see item below variant method described graphics gems note that the code from the graphics gems series all available from ftp site described above check out john bradley diversity algorithm which incorporated into the package and described the back the manual the imagemagick package see section for where contains another quantizing algorithm which presented doing better job than the other algorithms but slower there also implementation wan wong and prusinkiewicz algorithm for multidimensional data clustering transactions mathematical software vol june avialable princeton edu pub graphics colorquant shar this code modified form appears the utah raster toolkit well converting color into grayscale the ntsc formula luminosity red green blue quantizing grayscale black white the only reference you need for this stuff digital halftoning robert ulichney mit press isbn but before you off and start coding check out the image manipulation software mentioned item below all the packages mentioned can some form gray conversion rotating raster image arbitrary angle the obvious but wrong method loop over the pixels the source image transform each coordinate and copy the pixel the destination this wrong because leaves holes the destination instead loop over the pixels the destination image apply the reverse transformation the coordinates and copy that pixel from the source this method quite general and can used for any one one mapping not just rotation you can add anti aliasing doing sub pixel sampling however there much faster method with antialising included which involves doing three shear operations the method was originally created for the raster toolkit see below implementation also present pbmplus reference fast algorithm for raster rotation alan paeth awpaeth watcgl waterloo edu graphics interface vancouver article the toolkit appears the same journal updated version the rotation paper appears graphics gems see section under the original title free image manipulation software there are number toolkits for converting from one image format another doing simple image manipulations such size scaling plus the above mentioned color gray gray conversions here are pointers some them john bradley based image display manipulation and format conversion package displays many image formats and permits editing gif files among others the program was updated see the file contrib tar export lcs mit edu pbmplus jef poskanzer comprehensive format conversion and image manipulation package the latest version always available via anonymous ftp ftp lbl gov pbmplus tar wuarchive wustl edu graphics graphics packages pbmplus pbmplus tar and export lcs mit edu contrib pbmplus tar raster toolkit alan paeth awpaeth watcgl uwaterloo provides portable and efficient format and related toolkit the format versatile supporting pixels arbitrary channels components and bit precisions while allowing compression and machine byte order independence the kit contains more than tools with extensive support image manipulation digital halftoning and format conversion previously distributed tape the university waterloo ftp version will appear someday utah rle toolkit conversion and manipulation package similar pbmplus available via ftp utah edu pub urt princeton edu pub graphics urt and freebie engin umich edu pub urt fuzzy pixmap manipulation michael mauldin mlm cmu edu conversion and manipulation package similar pbmplus version available via ftp cmu edu usr mlm ftp fbm tar ftp net pub fbm tar and ucsd edu graphics fbm tar img software set paul raveling raveling venera isi edu reads and writes its own image format displays screen and does some image manipulations version available via ftp export lcs mit edu contrib img tar and venera isi edu pub img tar along with large collection color images xim image manipulator philip thompson does essential interactive image manipulations and uses and the osf motif toolkit for the interface supports images and bit formats reads writes and converts from gif xwd xbm tiff rle xim and other formats writes level postscript other utilities and image application library are included not paint package available via ftp from gis mit edu xloadimage jim frost madd std com reads images various formats and displays them screen available via ftp export lcs mit edu contrib xloadimage and your nearest comp sources archive xli grame gill updated xloadimage with numerous improvements both speed and the number formats supported available the same places xloadimage contrib tape comp sources archives tiff software sam leffler sam okeeffe berkeley edu nice portable library for reading and writing tiff files plus few tools for manipulating them and reading other formats available via ftp ucbvax berkeley edu pub tiff tar ftp net graphics tiff tar xtiff tool for viewing tiff file was written handle many different kinds tiff files possible while remaining simple portable and efficient xtiff illustrates some common problems with building pixmaps and using different visual classes distributed part sam leffler libtiff package and also available export lcs mit edu ftp net and comp sources xtiff was announced includes xlib and versions alv sun specific image toolkit version posted comp sources sun dec also available via email alv users request bris popi image manipulation language version posted comp sources misc dec imagemagick package for display and interactive manipulation images includes tools for image conversion annotation compositing animation and creating montages imagemagick can read and write many the more popular image formats available via ftp export lcs mit edu contrib imagemagick tar khoros huge meg graphical development environment based khoros components include visual programming language code generators for extending the visual language and adding new application packages the system interactive user interface editor interactive image display package extensive library image and signal processing routines and plotting packages available via ftp pprg eece unm edu pub khoros laboimage sunview based image processing and analysis package includes more than image manipulation processing and measurement routines line help plus tools such image editor color table editor and several biomedical utilities available via anonymous ftp ads com pub vision list archive shareware laboimage tar the san diego supercomputer center image tools software tools for reading writing and manipulating raster images binaries for some machines available via anonymous ftp sdsc edu sdscpub the independent jpeg group has written package for reading and writing jpeg files ftp ftp net graphics jpeg jpegsrc tar don forget set binary mode when you ftp tar files for you milnet folks who still don have name servers the addresses are ads com utah edu coral jcu edu export lcs mit edu freebie engin umich edu ftp lbl gov ftp net gis mit edu gondwana ecr karazm math edu marsh curtin edu nic funet fir ftp ncsa uiuc edu cmu edu pit manager mit edu pprg eece unm edu princeton edu sdsc edu ucbvax berkeley edu venera isi edu weedeater math yale edu wuarchive wustl edu zamenhof rice edu please not post mail messages saying can ftp could someone mail this there are number automated mail servers that will send you things like this response message see item below for details some also the newsgroup alt graphics pixutils specifically for discussion software like this you may find useful information there format documents for tiff iff biff nff off fits etc you almost certainly don need these read the above item free image manipulation software get one more these packages and look through them chances are excellent that the image converter you were going write already there but you still want one the format documents many such files are available anonymous ftp from zamenhof rice edu directory pub graphics formats these files were collected off the net and are believed correct this archive includes pixel formats and two and three dimensional object formats the future this archive uncertain the moment mark hall foo rice edu will apparently longer maintaining second graphics file format archive now being actively maintained quincey koziol koziol ncsa uiuc edu the latest version exists ftp ncsa uiuc edu misc file formats graphics formats apparently neither these complete you might want check both fits stands for flexible image transport system file format most often used astronomy despite the name can contain not only images but other things well there regular monthly fits basics and information posting sci astro fits read you want know more converting between vector formats lot people ask about converting from hpgl postscript macdraw cgm whatever important understand that this very different problem from the image format conversions item converting one image format another fairly easy problem since once you get past all the file header junk pixel pixel the basic objects are the same for all image formats this not for vector formats the basic objects circles ellipses drop shadowed pattern filled round cornered rectangles etc vary from one format another except extremely restricted cases simply not possible one one conversion between vector formats there software for converting and from cgm files ftp psc edu the contributor states that runs unix windows and possibly the mac better more specific blurb would most welcome the other hand quite possible close approximation rendering image from one format using the primitives from another far know one has put together general toolkit such converters but two different hpgl postscript converters have been posted comp sources misc check the index your nearest archive site related frequent question how convert from some vector format bitmapped image from postscript sun raster format hpgl bitmap for example some the commercial postscript clones for allow you render disk file well printer also the postscript interpreters the next box and sun news can used render file you clever but general the answer however someone were put together vector vector conversion toolkit adding vector raster converter would trivial gnu ghostscript from the fsf current version includes drivers for both ppm and gif format files thus can used postscript ppm postscript gif filter implements essentially all postscript level and alot display postscript and level how get pixar films the various john lasseter pixar computer animated shorts are available video tape you can order them from direct cinema limited film individual price institutional price luxo red dream tin toy knickknack luxo red dream tin toy all tapes are vhs ntsc add tape for pal format also available tin toy shirt knickknack shirt includes glasses for individual orders add for the first tape shirt for each additional tape shirt for institutional orders add for the first tape for each additional tape foreign shipping add tape shirt call international fax charge your credit card call first verify prices and availability just write direct cinema limited street santa monica allan braunsdorf has this say siggraph they were selling tape with all four shorts for that was sale price you can get for slightly more than that normally maybe believe available from renderman retail pixar address pixar west cutting blvd richmond fax you can obtain video directly from pixar which contains luxo red dream tin toy and knicknack for plus for shipping they will take your order over the phone via fax with major credit card ordered mine just last week and received several days later don expect able rent copy from your local video store according the license agreement printed the back cover the case cannot rented how draw circle bezier spline curve the short answer you can unless you use rational spline you can only approximate circle the approximation may look acceptable but sensitive scale magnify the scale and the error approximation magnifies deviations from circularity that were not visible the small can become glaring the large you want the job right consult the article menagerie rational spline circles leslie piegl and wayne tiller ieee computer graphics and applications volume number september pages for rough non rational approximations consult the book computational geometry for design and manufacture faux and pratt ellis horwood publishers halsted press john wiley for the best known non rational approximations consult the article good approximation circles curvature continuous bezier curves tor dokken morten daehlen tom lyche and knut morken computer aided geometric design volume numbers combined june pages elsevier science publishers north holland how order standards documents the american national standards institute sells ansi standards and also iso international standards their sales office mailing address broadway helps you have the complete name and number some useful numbers know cgm computer graphics metafile iso gks graphical kernel system ansi phigs programmer hierarchical interactive graphics system ansi iges asme ansi language bindings are often separate but related numbers for example the gks fortran binding standards progress are made available key milestones solicit comments from the graphical public this includes you ansi can let you know where order them most are available from global engineering how ftp email there are number sites that archive the usenet sources newsgroups and make them available via email query system you send message automated server saying something like send comp sources unix fbm and few hours days later you get the file the mail addition there least one ftp mail server send mail ftpmail decwrl dec com saying help and will tell you how use note that this service has times been turned off due abuse how tell whether point within planar polygon consider ray originating the point interest and continuing infinity crosses odd number polygon edges along the way the point within the polygon the ray crosses even number edges the point either outside the polygon within interior hole formed from intersecting polygon edges this idea known the trade the jordan curve theorem see eric haines article glassner ray tracing book above for more information including treatment special cases another method sum the absolute angles from the point all the vertices the polygon the sum the point inside the sum the point outside however this method about order magnitude slower than the previous method because evaluating the trigonometric functions usually quite costly code for both methods plus barycentric triangle testing can found the ray tracing news vol available from princeton edu pub graphics rtnews rtnv how tessellate sphere one simple way recursive subdivision into triangles the base the recursion octahedron and then each level divides each triangle into four smaller ones jon leech leech unc edu has posted nice routine called sphere that generates the coordinates available for ftp ftp lbl gov and princeton edu specific references ray tracing and global illumination rick speer maintains cross indexed ray tracing bibliography highlights this edition more than citations spanning the period from through november papers from all siggraph graphics interface eurographics international and ausgraph proceedings through december iii all citations keyworded for easy lookup cross indices keyword and author glossary the keywords used the bib the form postscript file the printout pages long below list ftp sites and the dirs that contain the file named speer raytrace bib and compressed most sites site dir wuarchive wustl edu graphics graphics bib bib speer karazm math edu pub graphics gondwana ecr pub papers nic funet pub sci papers graphics coral jcu edu graphics papers eric haines erich eye com maintains ray tracing and radiosity global illumination bibliographies these are refer format and can searched electronically simple awk script search for keywords included with each the bibliographies are available most the sites listed above and the most current versions are maintained princeton edu pub graphics papers raybib and radbib tom wilson wilson ucf edu has collected over abstracts from ray tracing related research papers and books the information essentially plaintext and latex and troff formatting programs are included this collection available most the sites above rtabs siggraph information online from steve cunningham and ralph orlick acm siggraph announces its online information site siggraph org this site now provides siggraph information via both anonymous ftp and electronic mail archive server the anonymous ftp service very standard and the ftp directory includes both conference and publications subdirectories retrieve information electronic mail send mail archive server siggraph org and the subject the body the message include the message send followed the topic and subtopic you wish good place start with the command send index which will give you date list available information siggraph panels proceedings available from steve cunningham and bob judd acm siggraph announces the availability the siggraph panels proceedings the siggraph org site the proceedings are available three formats text ascii rtf rich text format suitable for many word processors word word for the macintosh they may retrieved from siggraph org two ways anonymous ftp change one the directories publications panels proceedings text rtf word the text and rtf files may downloaded ascii mode while the word files are stored macbinary format and must downloaded binary mode each directory contains table contents file toc that describes the contents each panel file electronic mail send mail archive server siggraph org you can retrieve either the text rtf files suggest that you first retrieve the index files putting one the messages send panel txt index send panel rtf index the subject body the message you will get the necessary information retrieve the actual transcript files graphics mailing lists there are variety graphics related mailing list out there each covering either single product single topic have been active participant one these for some time now and find the focus and expertise which can brought bear isolated topic nothing short amazing please send the appropriate information you have any others you would like see added name imagine mailing list description discussion forum for users the imagine rendering and animation package impulse inc platforms amiga ibm subscription imagine request email paramax com posting imagine email paramax com name dctv mailing list description discussion forum for users the digital creations dctv box software and file formats platforms amiga subscription dctv request nova purdue edu posting dctv nova purdue edu name rayshade users mailing list description discussion forum for users the rayshade raytracer platforms most unix boxes amiga mac ibm subscription rayshade request princeton edu posting rayshade users princeton edu name lightwave software for toaster mailing list description discussion forum for users lightwave the video toaster modelling and rendering package platforms amiga subscription lightwave request bobsbox rent com with subscribe lightwave your message posting lightwave bobsbox rent com name pov mailing list description discussion forum for dkbtrace and pov renderers platforms unix subscription listserv trearn bitnet posting dkb trearn bitnet name mailing list for massive parallel rendering description same platforms unix subscription render request icase edu posting render icase edu specific references file formats graphics file formats david kay and john levine windcrest mcgraw hill isbn paper isbn hardcover isbn paper comments formats software this good imho prefer books which are non platform dependent questions about this book may sent gbook iecc cambridge what about gif gif stands for graphics interchange format portable and usable upon wide variety platforms quite limited some ways yes the keeper the faq has some opinions after all and fact don like much however looks like the most frequently asked question which was not previously covered this list the following list newsgroups and the like where one could find out about gif subject alt binaries pictures faq general info subject alt binaries pictures faq specific info newsgroups alt binaries pictures alt binaries pictures misc alt binaries pictures utilities alt binaries pictures fractals alt binaries pictures fine art news answers available the indicated usenet newsgroup via anonymous ftp from pit manager mit edu the files pub usenet news answers pictures faq part pub usenet news answers pictures faq part also available from mail server pit manager mit edu sending mail message containing any all send usenet news answers pictures faq part send usenet news answers pictures faq part send message containing help get general information about the mail server also you could check out the resources described sections and above for more information what morphing warping the deformation image mapping each pixel new location morphing blending from one image object another one valerie hall has written excellent introduction warping and morphing this available for anonymous ftp from marsh curtin edu the directory pub graphics bibliography morph there are three files morph intro postscript version many pictures morph intro txt text version responses responses morphing questions the files are compressed you must use binary transfer and uncompress them afterwards how ray trace height fields height fields are special case ray tracing they have number uses such terrain rendering and some optimization possible thus they get their own faq section note that further references can doubt located via the ray tracing bibs section above the following paper seems the definitive reference kenton musgrave grid tracing fast ray tracing for height fields july musg this available research report yaleu dcs from yale university also the siggraph fractal modeling computer graphics and imaging course notes and best all available the net nic funet pub sci papers musg weedeater math yale edu pub papers musg princeton edu pub graphics papers musg coral jcu edu graphics papers musg gondwana ecr pub papers musg and musg implementation this paper may found rayshade another paper exists david paglieroni sidney petersen parametric height field ray tracing proceedings graphics interface canadian information processing society toronto ontario may and still one more musgrave kolb and mace the synthesis and rendering eroded fractal terrains computer graphics vol siggraph procedings how find the area polygon the area triangle given notation area and the area planar polygon given area for area area area the area negative number the polygon triangle clockwise positive counterclockwise from ronald golman gem graphics gems see section above area planar polygons and volume polyhedra the area polygon not the plane given area polygon sigma where the unit vector normal the plane and polygonal vertex the represents the dot product operator and the represents the cross product operator sigma represents the summation operator represents the absolute value operator equal how join acm siggraph probably the easiest way join acm siggraph trot over your local technical library and find copy communications the acm somewhere within the first few pages will application blank fill out and mail acm membership for students costs voting associate membership yearly siggraph student membership costs additional for voting associate members also yearly get tog transactions graphics another for students and for voting associate members you just want join siggraph without joining acm cost you student discount there are surcharges for overseas airmailing publications acm member services may contacted via email acmhelp acmvm bitnet their phone number fax number snailmail address acm box church street station new york new york siggraph will held anaheim california the anaheim convention center just the street from disneyland august where can find mri and scan volume data volume data sets are available from the university north carolina omicron unc edu pub softlab chvrtd commerical use prohibited head data slice mri data set human head knee data slice mri data set human knee hipip data the result quantum mechanical calculation sod data one electron orbital hipip iron protein sod data electron density map the active site sod superoxide dismutase cadaver head data slice mri data set study cadaver head brain data slice mri data set head with skull partially removed reveal brain rna data electron density map for staphylococcus aureus ribonuclease specific references spatial data structures including quadtrees and octrees samet the design and analysis spatial data structures addison wesley reading isbn samet applications spatial data structures computer graphics image processing gis addison wesley reading isbn where can get program plot data data gnuplot command driven interactive data function plotting program runs just about any machine and very flexible terms supported output devices the official north american distribution site for the latest version dartmouth edu pub gnuplot more information available from the usenet newsgroup comp graphics gnuplot and its faq graphics gnuplot faq ace xmgr motif xvgr xview data function plotting tool for workstations terminals using available from ftp ccalmr ogi edu ccalmr pub acegr robotx robot general purpose plotting and data analysis program requires xview terminal workstation available from sunsite unc edu pub academic data analysis xgraph popular two dimensional plotting program that accepts data form similar the unix program graph and displays line graphs scatter plots bar charts display available from berkeley edu pub drawplot program for drawing plots windows sunview displays terminals available from xcf berkeley edu src local specific references pex and phigs pexlib programming manual tom gaskins pages reilly associates isbn pexlib reference manual edited steve talbott pages reilly associates isbn phigs programming manual tom gaskins pages reilly associates isbn softcover isbn casebound phigs reference manual edited linda kosko pages reilly associates isbn siggraph online bibliography project the acm siggraph online bibliography project database over unique computer graphics and computational geometry references bibtex format available the computer graphics community research and educational resource the database located siggraph org users may download the bibtex files via ftp and peruse them offline telnet siggraph org and log biblio and interactively search the database for entries interest keyword additions corrections suggestions may directed the admin bibadmin siggraph org john grieggs telos jet propulsion laboratory oak grove drive pasadena uucp cit vax elroy chas jpl devvax grieggs arpa jpl devvax grieggs cit vax arpa
comp.graphics	avi flc converter looking for small utility that will convert microsoft video avi file autodesk animator pro flc file since avis also contain sound would nice this utility also stored the sound track wav voc file currently accomplishing this saving the avi multiple dibs using video for windows then converting each dib gif then loading the gifs into animator for the sound load the original avi into wavedit and save seperate wav file this requires too many steps productive any help will greatly appreciated thanks don don campbell internet donc cognos com uucp cognos donc cognos inc mail box riverside drive ottawa ontario canada
comp.graphics	turning photographic images into thermal print and negatives not know hitting the right news groups not any help the right direction more than welcome need help finding company that will take photographic images scanned and modified adobe photoshop and turn them into thermal prints negatives looking for place close north carolina possible the images will created macintosh quadra running adobe photoshop and will then stored whatever format the vendor requires perhaps cartridges the images will black and white photographs scanned with dpi scanner then modified corrected adobe photoshop anyone could help even give phone numbers people who could would very grateful also anyone else doing what planning would happy hear from you with any advice you might provide the computer system you use and any peripherals software seemed the quadra would best bet modify photographic images planning buying quadra with megs ram meg hard drive dpi scanner sony monitor and meg cartridge drive and perhaps rom new computers and any advice would great david hawks seq uncwil edu hawks corning com
comp.graphics	need help find out the address several companies doing graphics lucas film pixar eye inc light magic thanks changyaw wangc indiana edu
comp.graphics	research positions graphics munich germany european computer research centre research positions graphics ecrc currently expanding its research staff three dimensional graphics are looking for highly qualified researchers with phd computer science and proven ability conduct highly innovative research preference will given candidates who have strong experience developing and implementing algorithms for three dimensional graphics visualization and user interaction presently have positions available for both experienced researchers and recent graduates candidates with especially strong backgrounds may considered for positions visiting scientists for student research positions the european computer industry research centre located munich germany with english the working language the centre funded consortium major computer companies with mission pursue research fundamental areas computer science active areas research include visualization and user interfaces distributed computing parallelism deductive systems and databases the center employs researchers different nationalities the small but rapidly growing graphics group currently investigating new methods for three dimensional human computer interaction and the integration computer vision and computer graphics technology the center has extensive computing facilities which includes sun workstations apple macintoshes well equipped graphics laboratory and network access super computer facilities ecrc offers competitive salaries and excellent benefits for immediate consideration send written application with curriculum vitae telephone number mail address and references douglas greer ecrc gmbh arabellastrasse munich germany
comp.graphics	wanted playmation info article apr osf org omar godzilla osf org mark marino writes folks does anyone have copy playmation they willing sell love try out but not for the retail playmation available direct from anjon associates for hard beat that price also you better off with newer version than older version that had bugs that have long since been clobbered thanks advance mark marino omar osf org uunet osf omar ken baer programmer animator hash enterprises usenet baer qiclab uucp applelink kenbaer office not hitchhiking anymore riding ren hoak
comp.graphics	bit graphics wonko the sane oehler yar wisc edu wrote was recently talking possible employer mine and made reference bit graphics computer image processing system seem remember being called image something akin that anyway claimed had bit color bit alpha channel that bits info what could that possibly for specifically the bit color that trillion colors many more than the human eye can resolve this anti aliasing thing this just some magic number make work better with certain processor pretty sure most industry strength image processing specific systems photo processing gear use much bits color info why why not oversampling never bad idea especially the hardware only task image manipulation and profressional photographers demand professional results also settle bet with roommate what are sgi flagship products know iris indigo and crimson but what are the other ones and which their top the line sadly have access none them just dec sigh strange question but anyway there the vgx line the newer indigo and the onyx systems are the new big boys the block you can get processor system with twice the graphics performance reality engine there more but don have handy periodic table sgi keith
comp.graphics	hallusion info sean murphy sean aries scs uiuc edu wrote has anyone seen hallusions you can buy poster them and looks like simple dot pattern when you first look but you focus behind you see picture looking for program that generates these pictures there company texas that makes them but doubt they giving the program away any help would appreciated there program included with the book virtual reality playhouse which will let you generate these pictures not very powerful program but does acceptable job for experimentation purposes davidr rincon ema rockwell com
comp.graphics	message for cgcad bart inescn cant get through the author rtrace his site inaccessible can upload the new version somewhere else please
comp.graphics	rfd for open telematic group for realtime multimedia online apps rfd request for discussion for the open telematic group otg have proposed the forming consortium task force for the promotion naplps jpeg fif openly discuss ways method procedures algorythms applications implementation extensions naplps jpeg standards these standards should facilitate the creation real time online applications that make use voice video telecommuting hires graphics conferencing distant learning online order entry fax addition these dicussion would assist all better understand how sgml cals oda mime oodbms jpeg mpeg fractals sql cdrom cdromxa kodak photocd tcl fast eia tia can best incorporated and implemented develop telematic multimedia applications want able support dos unix mac windows platforms our hope that individuals developers corporations universities labs would join supporting such endeavor this would not for profit group with bylaws and charter already many corporation have decided support otg open telematic group not delay joining you are developer rfd has been posted form usenet newsgroup and faq will soon compose start promulgating what known the subject you would like added the mailist send email mail the address below this group would publish electronic quarterly naplps jpeg newsletter well hardcopy version urge all who wants see cmcs hires based applications the naplps jpeg decide join and mutually benefit from this not for profit endeavor note telematic has been defined james martin the marriage voice video res graphics fax ivr music over telephone lines lan you would like get involve write img inter multimedia group internet epimntl world std com box pimentel gisatl fidonet org atlanta georgia cis fidonet bbs zyxel all that have responded are trying acknowledge soon possible have really been inundated with org corp edu willing get involve would nice upon responded you can state what capacity you are willing get involve edimg willard atl pimentel gatech vdbsan willard edimg emory uumind willard edimg willard house bbs atlanta
comp.graphics	inv normal array does anyone truely understand the invalid normal array error gives you while rendering seems present itself while rendering complicated images have circumvented this problem rendering the command line however would nice render inside the editor this memory problem craig
comp.graphics	format gif files could anyone tell the format gif files would like know how could determine the size the picture also are gif files compressed format how many bits store pixel color information this probally simple question but couldn find the faq email responses would perferred david lau davidla ecs comm mot com
comp.graphics	bit graphics good reason which why many companies use for bits pixel you can use double buffering for animating scenes you have bit planes you write the one the background and then flip the entire screen updates the second image plane the screen updates one refresh and you don see different objects appearing the order that they drawn the cad macdraw effect now your ready update the image that used the foreground steve thssstb iitmax iit edu iris iit edu about the product line who can even keep track nowadays every seems their ads press releases claim redefine computing etc etc know with each new product progress and competition are great but who wants invest system that obsolete the time reaches your desk
comp.graphics	why does illustrator autotrace poorly article vmcbrt diablo uucp diablo uucp cboesel charles boesel writes been trying figure out way get adobe illustrator auto trace exactly what see screen but misses the edges templates many pixels more resulting images that are useless need exact tracing not approximate tried adjusting the freehand tolerances well autotrace tolerances but doesn help any suggestions buy adobe streamline problem solved college men get smashed and break something college women get smashed and get broken robin wilson president ryan malayter chico state university stanford hall notre dame dept physics comp sci malayter edu
comp.graphics	oak vga driver available via ftp user bbs accidentally deleted his vga driver for his oak card and has backup was wondering someone knew ftp site and path please where such thing might obtained thanks there religion when man has good curry call the lizard den bbs yoda usenet nethack xix amiga tim clinkenpeel aberrant analytical skeptical agnostic idealist exclusively represent myself
comp.graphics	fast polygon routine needed article rguqoinnrc edna swin edu alan saturn swin alan christiansen writes believe that the algorithms you can get that will only draw convex polygons can much more efficient than those that can draw concave self intersecting polygons this efficiency can largely attributed the fact that simple convex polygons only have left and right edge each scan line complex figure type polygons can bit trickier true the convex algorithm faster than general concave multi outline algorithm but not tremendously faster spent awhile implementing and optimizing both flavors and the convex turned out about faster this all risc the compiler got the inner loop shooting the span fast possible far could tell for any sort game the database render known ahead time and can made all convex definitely the way sorry but code cannot made public domain jesse jesse lackey eye inc ithaca jesse eye com
comp.graphics	fast polygon routines needed looking for some fast polygon routines shaded texture mapped asm compile with masm turbo pascal compile with has able run but does not have look super fast but must look good anyone has any such code could you please mail tell where can got thanks advance daniel godden genius only one step away university western sydney nepean from insanity aarnet internet dgodden nepean usw edu but already there
comp.graphics	virtual reality for the cheap ridout bink plk mil brian ridout writes article apr mfltd sts mfltd steve sherwood writes has anyone got multiverse work have built svr mips svr and sun sparcstation there seems many bugs the dogfight and dactyl simply nothing after fixing bug where variable defined twice two different modules one needed setting static else the client core dumped steve extn sts mfltd uunet mfocus sts tried compiling several sparcstations with gcc after fixing few bugs missing constant definitions plus couple other things got compile link but after starting client server just get black window sometimes the client core dumps sometimes the server sometimes get broken pipe sometimes just sits there doing nothing although occassionally get the cursor become cross hair dog fight but that sent word the author plus what did fix last week but reply yet peter campbell campbell trl
comp.graphics	graph traversal algorithms everyone currently planning write program that traverses the image handwritten characters ascii format and produces circle and line representation handwritten characters did anybody out there has any experiences this problem you have would you post mail please kevin does anyone has program that traverse the digital image and produces circle and line kevin shin kshin bcstec boeing com
comp.graphics	newsgroup split article mach wlu mart mach wlu phil martin writes chris herringshaw tdawson engin umich edu wrote concerning the proposed newsgroup split personally not favor doing this learn awful lot about all aspects graphics reading this group from code hardware algorithms just think making different groups out this wate and will only result few posts week per group kind like the convenience having one big forum for discussing all aspects graphics anyone else feel this way just curious yes also like knowing where ask question without getting hell for putting the wrong newsgroup also against splitting the group the traffic will decrease any given subject but the required net bandwidth will increase because multiply cross postings just went through this with another group continuously read now almost the point where longer worth reading strongly suggest not doing this dave rogers
comp.graphics	wanted grayscale dithering routine have some color gifs which would like archive much smaller size using grayscale palette shades the quantization grays introduces some ugly bands the pictures which can nicely eliminated dithering now have used process the images but now would like automate the procedure the problem that can think convert images automatically and the obvious alternative pnmplus ppmquant and pnmdither don even get close quality pnmdither apparently dithers rgb even though the images are grayscale the dithering routine seems use the natural image colors for the dither this any similar routine available the public domain where niclas mattsson exjob math chalmers
comp.graphics	vrrend where kept told that vrrend available the internet wanted know where thanks advance raoul daruwala nyu edu
comp.graphics	rumours about article apr mercury unt edu sean mcmains mcmains unt edu writes wow very interested get hands one these especially considering the fact that motorola has not yet released the which supposedly the next the lineup the made someone other than motorola signetics perhaps and was memory serves correctly compatible single chip micro type chip built extra toys like serial ports ram interfaces etc laugh all you want but there such critter gord wait smos systems vancouver design centre uunet jericho gord gord jericho uunet net even some days
comp.graphics	mgr naplps gui bbs frontends all looking into methods can use turn linux based bbs into full color graphical bbs that supports mac linux and amiga callers originally was inspired the naplps graphics standard summary which hit this group about weeks ago posted that document forgot part etc but was more than summary was complete technical description the protocol can ftped from simtel from wuarchive wustl edu mirrors msdos naplps following software availability naplps supporting software find that most terminal programs are commercial the only resonable shareware one being which runs soley msdos machines leaving mac and amiga users buy full commercial software they want try out the bbs know wouldn next most interesting possibility port mgr mac amiga why not write naplps decoder for your choice platform and release the code the net then other willing souls can help port other platforms naplps was designed for this type online interactive graphics much the same but while intended for high bandwidth network connections naplps was optimized for low bandwidth modem connections there color version mgr for linux does anyone have any other suggestions for linux based gui bbs sure you will receive other suggestions but look this way you wanted provide full network connection linux over modem would you use slip ppp would you invent some new way most people would say that slip ppp exist and are reasonably well designed protocols lets just implement them see the same way with naplps existing well thought out extensible protocol for online graphics why not implement you need any advice implementation just mail currently getting beta version coreldraw naplps converter working well enough release may you someone else does not get going freely available naplps decoder then intend after get conversion program out beta and get couple other things done michael dillon internet mpdillon halcyon halcyon com powerhouse fidonet armstrong voice canada bbs
comp.graphics	patches for sungks due number bugs gks under sunos installed patches and patch appears work fine and has fixed number problems patch however which required fix number other annoying bugs breaks with our applications there more recent revision patch any other ideas scott sloan email cesws newcastle edu university newcastle fax nsw australia
comp.graphics	psygnosis titles was rumours about mark samson samson prlhp prl philips wrote speaking psygnosis they have licensed games philips interative media international for and for the commodore cdtv regards email mattias matt dah dsv love
comp.graphics	front end for povray day all does anyone know anything about front end for povray version mean are there things like user friendly modeller for povray any modellers which will let design scene and produce file which povray can then read cheers tomek tomek tpiatek comp vuw new zealand tomek tpiatek comp vuw new zealand
comp.graphics	vatican library the vatican library recently made tour the can anyone help finding ftp site where this collection available thanx advance watson
comp.graphics	tiff philosophical significance wed apr gmt psh brunel peter hauke said peter joachim lous joachim kih wrote peter does anyone have any other suggestions where the came from peter yep here theory that once heard bandied around rather than thinking peter the number think the sound for tea two sort anagram tea for two peter two for tea for tea two other suggestion there tea above just and for two many things are possible think binary wonder there was eve for adam peter malek malek cooperate what agree and forgive each other for that which disagree hassan banna
comp.graphics	raytracing colours have question about recursive backward raytracing when incident ray strikes object point first the normal calculated light rays are calculated where the number light sources these being the light rays that not intersect with anything the reflected ray and the transmitted ray calculated from the formulae calling the routine recursively and will return the colours along the rays and rcol and tcol each object has its own colour ocol and each light source has licol the question how you combine rcol tcol ocol and all the licol get the correct resulting colour return along the ray all colours are defined strucures records having components between and anyone has done this before could you give few hints adrian secchia asecchia uct
comp.graphics	bit graphics apollo now have graphics board that does bit graphics when heard that jumped the answer isn that can trillion trillion trillion colors actually does planes bits planes bits etc for very fast graphics douginoz
comp.graphics	lasergraphics language have old montage film recorder when connected with its processor card can directly take hpgl targa and lasergraphics language files bit targa quite for raster images but conversion from whatever one happens have can quite slow this lasergraphics language seems got the source file for one test image vector based language that can handle one million colors does some polygons too and perhaps something else the question where can find some information about this language ftp site book company address would nice have windows driver for but not that optimistic thanks advance for any help jussi jussi laaksonen computing centre akademi university finland
comp.graphics	matrox windows driver need windows driver for the matrox svga card the moment windows runs only the mode you have driver for this card please send with the oemsetup inf bockamp informatik muenchen thanks florian bockamp bockamp informatik muenchen ooo ooo not bug undocumented feature
comp.graphics	help needed hidden line removal article raynor beech scarolina edu raynor scarolina edu harold brian raynor writes looking for some information hidden line removal using roberts algorithm something with code pseudo code would especially helpful required this for class due monday have very little time implement these changes very fast paced class the notes given class leave lot desired would vastly appreciate any help actually any algorithm would nice roberts the main problem two objects intersecting and dimensions need know which lines clip off that one object will appear front another you can give ftp address and filename even the name good book really appreciate day brian blunt about this the only reasonable explanation roberts algorithm procedural elements for computer graphics rogers mcgraw hill book the library and look this there also somewhat muddled explanation the first edition newman and sproull the algorithm described pecg runs near linear time luck dave rogers
comp.graphics	wanted how screen dump vga screen how can one dump the printer the content vga screen were text screen can execute shift printscr but with graphics have pixed pixel print would greatly appreciated someone can supply source code for this alternately are there commercial shareware programs that are available this must able shell out program execute this print screen therefore would prefferable have source code thank you advance rickey tom internet style aruba rickt psi com programmer analyst project uucp uunet uupsi aruba rickt
comp.graphics	coreldraw bitmap scodal article rsiinnld zephyr grace cri srlnjal grace cri writes does anyone know software that will allow you convert coreldraw cdr files containing bitmaps scodal this the only format our bureau filmrecorder recognises corel draw will version onwards you have version perhaps upgrade order another alternative would use different bureau that can take postscript chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester internet lilley mcc voice fax janet lilley mcc
comp.graphics	needed plotting package that does qgf alta com chris zeus alta com chris murphy writes article full apr dolphin pts mot com full pts mot com glen fullmer writes looking for graphics cad whatever package unix box that will take file with records like see roger grywalski response help network visualization comp graphics visualization could someone please post roger grywalski response point where could find thanks lot raj chaudhury dept physics raj phys ksu edu kansas state university manhattan raj chaudhury dept physics raj phys ksu edu kansas state university manhattan
comp.graphics	classes for graphics planning writing several classes build raytracing radiosity library top and wondering anythink like this freely available the net before what need classes like rays vectors colors shaders surfaces media primitives worlds containing primitives and views images please post mail torgeir veimo studying the university bergen gona wave freak flag high jimi hendrix and would okay any other day the police
comp.graphics	problems article cba tut lehtori tut kouhia juhana writes recent discussion about problems were held some newsgroup here some text users might find interesting have also minor ideas for bit mail for them deleted for space basically complaints that bit program and that making several modifications the rgb sliders slow because screen updates reverse order try clicking the auto apply box switch off then make your mods then click apply there problem stated has already been solved you look carefully yes bit program this not bug you can edit individual pallette entries global colour changes crop scale etc clearly the program must save out the altered image else all your work would thrown away yes saves out bit images course can import bit images and quantises them down bits this handy facility not bug how would you suggest doing colour editing bit file how would you group related colours edit them together only global changes could done unless the software were very different and much more complicated you want colour editing bit image you need much more powerfull software which readily available commercially and lastly jpeg compression algorithm can applied any image arbitrary bit depth again this not bug way saving disk space later chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester internet lilley mcc voice fax janet lilley mcc
comp.graphics	vatican library reposted request these images are great but they are also large pixels typical size warned regards tom lane from rsquires cyclops eece unm edu roger squires newsgroups comp archives subject rec arts books vatican library exhibit library congress online date feb gmt original newsgroups rec arts books original date feb gmt archive name auto rec arts books vatican library exhibit library congress online this from another newsgroup looks quite interesting rms announcing new online exhibit from the library congress rome reborn the vatican library renaissance culture exhibit the library congress washington available anonymous ftp from seq loc gov pub vatican exhibit rome reborn the vatican library and renaissance culture presents some the vatican library most precious manuscripts books and maps many which played key role the humanist recovery the classical heritage greece and rome the exhibition presents the untold story the vatican library the intellectual driving force behind the emergence rome political and scholarly superpower during the renaissance the exhibit will display the jefferson building the library congress from january through april the online exhibit will available anonymous ftp indefinitely the exhibit divided into nine sections the vatican library archaeology humanism mathematics music medicine biology nature described wider world how the orient came rome and wider world how rome went china each section consists its own sub directory within the exhibit directory and contains the exhibit text for that section and separate jpeg image files for each object this online exhibit includes not only objects from the library congress exhibit but also the alternate objects brought from rome used there were problem with one the primary objects and items omitted later the planning process this exhibit will interest medieval and renaissance scholars particular but also art historians historians science medicine early music scholars students the humanist movement students printing and the printed word theologians scholars both far and near eastern studies and librarians and information professionals please get the readme file for details what files this exhibit contains you have questions about how use ftp speak your local computer support person you have questions comments about the content the exhibit please write vatican kell loc gov while you have any questions comments the system please contact ellis ellis special projects office library congress washington internet kell seq loc gov
comp.graphics	coreldraw bitmap scodal article gmginn zephyr grace cri srlnjal grace cri writes yes aware coreldraw exports scodal version did quite well apart from few hassles with radial fills version revb better but you try export scodal with bitmap image included the drawing will say something like cannot export scodal with bitmap least does version then sorry for misunderstanding anyone out there knows way around this all ears temporal images make product called filmpak which converts autocad plots scodal postscript scodal and now gif scodal but costs and was just wondering there was anything out there that just did the bitmap scodal part tad cheaper maybee you should persuade your burea that for only they can become much more competitive taking input from autocad postscript andgif well scodl seriously this sounds like something the bureau should have find another bureau you should not the one buting this software chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester internet lilley mcc voice fax janet lilley mcc
comp.graphics	adobe photo shop type software for unix motif platforms article world std com wdm world std com wayne michael writes have been searching for quality image enhancement and manipulation package for unix motif platforms that comparable adobe photo shop for the mac corel draw will able this will include the photopaint stuff that the version got with version don hold your breath though chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester internet lilley mcc voice fax janet lilley mcc
comp.graphics	bit graphics article apr wisc edu oehler yar wisc edu wonko the sane writes was recently talking possible employer mine and made reference bit graphics computer image processing system seem remember being called image something akin that anyway claimed had bit color bit alpha channel that bits info what could that possibly for specifically the bit color that trillion colors many more than the human eye can resolve this anti aliasing thing this just some magic number make work better with certain processor well bit colour could for improved resolution but bits per channel seems like bit excessive have seen paper that quoted bits per channel bits for computational precision more than that would seem wasted perhaps the frame buffer uses another colourspace which needs more bits represent the full range rgb cube compact encoding most likely however that there are two separate bit bits per component frame buffers this set called double buffering allows complex picture built one buffer while the other buffer containing the previous frame displayed this makes for smoother animation sadly have access none them just dec sigh well hey you want brag about numbers the range can take pxg turbo card with bits per pixel full double buffering two bit buffers bit buffer and extra bit buffer for off screen image storage mind you the card costs more than your workstation chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester internet lilley mcc voice fax janet lilley mcc
comp.graphics	turning photographic images into thermal print and negatives also anyone else doing what planning would happy hear from you with any advice you might provide the computer system you use and any peripherals software seemed the quadra would best bet modify photographic images planning buying quadra with megs ram meg hard drive dpi scanner sony monitor and meg cartridge drive and perhaps rom new computers and any advice would great well have lots experience with scanning images and altering them for changing them back into negatives that really possible scanning and altering big deal don know what types features you have your version photoshop but the one use which incidentally quadra has gallery effects and all types other neato stuff just wondering why you would want put your images back into negatives because once you print the image out that your print you know what exactly your aim all this like are you doing this just for fun for business gain more computer knowledge for project you working otherwise guess don know helping not posting info scanning and stuff cool seeya jennifer urso the bitter woman utter blahness but cheerful undertones
comp.graphics	help need bits viewer article seti inria deniaud cartoon inria gilles deniaud writes looking for program which able display bits images are using sun sparc equipped with parallax graphics board running utah raster toolkit using getx convert your sun raster files presumably ppm with the pbm toolkit then convert ppm utah rle format with ppmtorle which provided the toolkit seem remember that xloadimage can bit servers too possibly xwud the window dump program can display bit images certainly xwd can grab them chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester internet lilley mcc voice fax janet lilley mcc
comp.graphics	povray tga rle hello have some problem converting tga file generated povray rle file when convert not get any warning message but use xloadimage getx something wrong error messages are targatorle rle data tga xloadimage rle rle bit rle image with map will dither bits with gamma dithering image done building ximage done xloadimage error badvalue integer parameter out range for operation xloadimage error badwindow invalid window parameter know that need install ppmtorle and tgatoppm but not spend time install them even not want generate rgb from povray and then convert them rle possible rgb rle works but will mess directory with many files and needs more steps finally convert rle file say cat rawtorle rleflip does any body out there have same experience problems thanks advance park
comp.graphics	wanted playmation info article apr qiclab scn rain com baer qiclab scn rain com ken baer writes article apr osf org omar godzilla osf org mark marino writes folks does anyone have copy playmation they willing sell love try out but not for the retail playmation available direct from anjon associates for oops forgot the phone number ken baer programmer animator hash enterprises usenet baer qiclab uucp applelink kenbaer office not hitchhiking anymore riding ren hoak
comp.graphics	please help point concave polyhedra dear netters looking for source code test point lies within concave polyhadra have read few articles about this and know that two solutions exist parity counting and angle sumation both ideas are pretty simple but coding not wonder there exists public domain source code for this another rough solition don care special cases ray casting which reported more less independent number faces consisting the polyhedra special space indexing used tamminen ray casting and block model conversion using spatial index computer aided designs but the prerequirement that all the facets polyhedra have their normal pointing outside polyhedra how this could done practice have set trangles consisting the polyhedra how could ensure their normals pointing outside the polyhedra the paper mentioned above assumed this already the case have also read some standard computer graphics textbook about hidden line removal says make the rule that the normal facet pointing toward viewer standing far away from the polyhedra again how make sure any pointers are welcome yaohong jiang queen university kingston ont jiangy qucdn queensu
comp.graphics	triangulized data wanted with texture mapped need triangulized data some nice looking model with some texture mapping would better the parametric values each vertex for the surface before triangulized are avaliable along with the euclidean points that could use them for texture mapping thanks kwansik
comp.graphics	where faq where can find thanks kwansik
comp.graphics	what the difference between raytracing and rendering hello raytraced and rendered and the only difference found that raytracing takes hell lot longer missing something later
comp.graphics	tiff complexity anyone who thinks that tiff too complex hasn dealt with cgm asn cda dca sgml any one number other very successful file format people seem perfectly capable dealing with these others dealing with the format tiff frankly less difficult than dealing with the dct lzw and fax encoding the image data the majority the libraries which deal with tiff are dedicated these other issues rather than with simply decoding the tags and parameters perhaps people are overwhelmed comparison with some rather simpleminded formats such gif pcx and bmp but suggest that tiff complex doomed failure ludicrous that doesn mean that gif isn fine but don even thing about using many instances gif very nice for use low end photos applications and for screen grabs and such but would never for high volume high resolution systems fax nice but doesn color and gif doesn all that well jpeg nice for high resolution color but slow for low end the advantage tiff brings the table its ability handle all these situations and then some naturally more complex but rather propose tiff imaging solutions over imaging systems based having deal with file formats anyday you may find that tiff too complicated for your personal tastes but please don wrail against complexity the complexity contains required provide the functionality does and doesn come close the complexity found most commercially viable file formats philosophical arguments against complexity let all program scheme and forth and imaging with run length encoding
comp.graphics	dxf pcx gif tif tga does anyone know program for the that will take autocad dxf format files and convert them raster format like pcx gif etc thanks advance murashie mail beckman instruments inc phone diagnostic system group fax kraemer blvd internet murashiea mail beckman com brea
comp.graphics	donwloaded bin file from unix machine now what just donwloaded bin file from unix machine which supposed converted mac format does anyone know what need this file get into any dos mac unix readable format someone mentioned fetch the unix machine this correct could someone explain the bin format little thanks elizabeth elizabeth strickler matess gsusgi gsu edu
comp.graphics	help studio ipas can anyone please give some ftp sites get ipas processes for studio thanks warren
comp.graphics	computer graphics studies the technion technion israel institute technology department computer science graduate studies computer graphics applications are invited for graduate students wishing specialize computer graphics and related fields active research being conducted the fields image rendering geometric modelling and computer animation state the art graphics workstations sun silicon graphics and video equipment are available the technion offers full scholarship support tuition and assistantships for suitable candidates for more information contact craig gotsman computer science deptartment technion israel institute technology haifa israel gotsman technion
comp.graphics	dwg gcd formats reference needed can some kind soul point references for the above formats thanks earl
comp.graphics	any autodesk concepts users out there you are user autodesk concepts and are willing answer small number short questions then please send email earl boebert sctc com
comp.graphics	raytracing colours asecchia uct adrian secchia writes when incident ray strikes object point the reflected ray and the transmitted ray calculated from the formulae calling the routine recursively and will return the colours along the rays and rcol and tcol each object has its own colour ocol and each light source has licol the question how you combine rcol tcol ocol and all the licol get the correct resulting colour return along the ray first all this not snide response you confused about this issue you will stumble over lot other things well suggest that the weakness your reference material get introduction ray tracing andrew glassner for very good coverage the raytracing algorithm you could also refer the edition foley van dam the question the simple answer that you just keep adding all the contributions and then clamping the maximum intensity for example your intensity values range from then keep adding and clamp the resultant values you might have clamp the lower bound you have dark bulbs but that another issue you get some illumination equation like this lambient ldiffuse light lreflected ltransparent the contribution due reflection just summed with the light intensity the light due transparency now slightly less hand waving illumination equation this kala kdld light krlr ktlt that each component the illumination equation governed the material constants and the maximum you can get from transparency for given object for example might for purple colored glass object hopefully this answers your question forward illumination equation sermon you also steve hollasch kubota pacific computer inc hollasch kpc com santa clara california
comp.graphics	what the difference between raytracing and rendering zlg uxa cso uiuc edu zhenhai writes hello raytraced and rendered and the only difference found that raytracing takes hell lot longer missing something yes there are many methods rendering raytracing one them you didn say what you mean rendering won guess methods rendering include pencil and graph paper doing the math hand wireframe rendering the projection hidden line rendering scanline rendering using painter algorithm bsp trees buffer other raytracing radiosity holographic projection film combination any the above steve hollasch kubota pacific computer inc hollasch kpc com santa clara california
comp.graphics	dna helix looking for tiff eps dna helix mail any auggestions please
comp.graphics	donwloaded bin file from unix machine now what article matess gsusgi gsu edu matess gsusgi gsu edu eliza strickler writes just donwloaded bin file from unix machine which supposed converted mac format does anyone know what need this file get into any dos mac unix readable format someone mentioned fetch the unix machine this correct could someone explain the bin format little this almost certainly macbinary file which encoded version mac file the resource fork and data fork get preserved you need program that converts this regular file this macbinary file you may have downloaded text mode and probably corrupt you did you using ftp transfer any point make sure you type binary first you can open the file with text editor and find this file must converted with bin the top binhex file and can decoded with binhex among other programs niko schuessler project vincent systems manager email niko iastate edu iowa state university computation center voice ames snail durham
comp.graphics	rfd comp multimedia open telematic rfd request for discussion for the open telematic group otg have proposed the forming consortium task force for the promotion naplps jpeg fif openly discuss ways method procedures algorythms applications implementation extensions naplps jpeg standards these standards should facilitate the creation real time online applications that make use voice video telecommuting hires graphics conferencing distant learning online order entry fax addition these dicussion would assist all better understand how sgml cals oda mime oodbms jpeg mpeg fractals sql cdrom cdromxa kodak photocd tcl fast and eia tia can best incorporated and implemented develop telematic multimedia applications want able support dos unix mac windows platforms our hope that individuals developers corporations universities labs would join supporting such endeavor this would not for profit group with bylaws and charter already many corporations have decided support otg open telematic group not delay joining you are developer rfd has been posted form usenet newsgroup and faq will soon composed start promulgating what known the subject you would like added the maillist send email mail the address below this group would publish electronic quarterly naplps jpeg newsletter well hardcopy version urge all who wants see cmcs hires based applications the naplps jpeg decide join and mutually benefit from this not for profit endeavor note telematic has been defined james martin the marriage voice video res graphics fax ivr music over telephone lines lan you would like get involve write img inter multimedia group internet epimntl world std com box pimentel gisatl fidonet org atlanta georgia cis fidonet bbs zyxel edimg willard atl pimentel gatech vdbsan willard edimg emory uumind willard edimg willard house bbs atlanta
comp.graphics	wanted bit viewer hello thanks the people who helped with the problem displaying bit images all the viewers like xli xloadimage and display are converting the bit images bit before display them the screen what really want viewer with make use the bit frame screen buffer our case the parallax one thanks advance gilles are using sun sparc running
comp.graphics	scientific visualization chemical systems molecules has evolved from esoteric academic subject into international industry computer graphics has played decisive role this transformation allowing chemists build visualize and interact with complex geometrical objects while computer scientists are conversant the language their own discipline they are often unfamiliar with the terminology simulation techniques and practical needs research chemists similarly chemists are often unfamiliar with the latest paradigms and technological advances graphical computing this interdisciplinary course intended bridge the gap between computer science and chemistry and equip chemistry researchers who wish more than just casual users prepackaged graphics software although this not intended course computational chemistry drug design data sets from chemical research problems will used lab and students will encouraged bring data sets their own lab exercises and projects will carried out using data flow programming ibm visualization data explorer software and students will have access cornell theory center computing resources including video recording equipment audience researchers and students the chemical and biological sciences interested integrating state the art computer graphics into their research computer scientists wishing gain familiarity with major application scientific visualization the class size will limited participants first come first served basis level graduate advanced undergraduate credits may taken without credit workshop calculus linear algebra and introductory chemistry required familiarity with unix windows and useful but not required date june credits june credits time mon fri and cost credit credits format the course will held the theory center training facility where computer workstations will available daily lectures will interspersed with laboratory exercises and ample time will provided for project enablement and familiarization with the new computing environment students enrolled for one credit will graded the basis their laboratory exercises and short final project those enrolled for second credit will receive more advanced lectures given more time for project development and meet daily share experience and discuss problems encountered content may vary elements computer graphics polygonal rendering lighting models ray tracing volumetric rendering stereo graphics animation introduction data flow programming interactivity representing the atom size time and energy scales basic classical and quantum mechanics important categories molecules small molecules biopolymers surfaces and catalysts miscellaneous current applications data formats and conversions advanced molecular graphics techniques types simulation and experiment electronic structure molecular dynamics mechanics electrostatics ray crystallography nmr quantum dynamics and spectroscopy instructors the course will taught two instructors topics related computer graphics will handled bruce land project leader visualization cornell national supercomputing facility chemistry specific aspects the course will handled richard gillilan visualization specialist and research scientist cornell national supercomputing facility register mail completed form cornell university school continuing education and summer sessions day hall ithaca questions richard gillilan richard cornell edu important acceptance will first come first served and based target class size full credit and single non credit participants deadline may application form scientific visualization chemical systems chemistry computer science social security number available cornell number available name last first middle suffix etc address home address where grades will mailed local phone home phone academic discipline course number check one chemistry computer science credits status undergraduate student smart node consultant graduate student smart node advisor post doctoral faculty other explain corporate commercial research staff other explain name firm indicate which the following best describes you optional african american alaskan native asian american caucasian hispanic american native american list special needs mobility impaired accommodations blocks rooms are available the sheraton reservations must made later than may sure tell them you are here for the cornell theory center visualization workshop sheraton inn one sheraton drive ithaca fax rates starting other local motels make your reservation early our workshop coincides with other cornell events econo lodge cayuga mall triphammer ithaca fax rates from ask for the cornell rate dorm rooms have also been reserved participants both credit and non credit participants who are interested dorm rooms should call below for registration information jeanne miller donna smith email jeanne cornell edu donna cornell edu
comp.graphics	analysis text readins utils ocr wanted ibm from tolsty thu apr newsserv newcom kiae newsgroups comp periphs comp graphics digest comp graphics comp binaries ibm wanted alt graphics pixutils bit listserv omrscan message kaj nzfm nsk uucp free msk organization nsk ran from andrey shorin tolsty nsk uucp free msk date thu apr subject analysis text reading utils needed ibm distribution msk does anybody know any reliable utils read english texts with scanner want some analysis quality recognition because want read texts which get fax you know quality faxes rather bad the scanner have and dpi but there exist any good software that needs other specifications that will please send messages mail conference server summarize them and consider your recomendations thank you andrey shorin scientific council complex problem cybernetics russian academy sciences mail tolsty nsk uucp free msk tel fax
comp.graphics	cross sobel roberts filters saw imaging program some time ago amiga that had cross sobel and roberts filters for edge detection can anybody direct these algorithms paul denize paul denize internet pdenize waikato department computer science university waikato phone hamilton ext new zealand fax
comp.graphics	apr computer graphics resource listing weekly part archive name graphics resources list part last modified computer graphics resource listing weekly posting part last change april many faqs including this listing are available the archive site pit manager mit edu alias rtfm mit edu the directory pub usenet news answers the name under which faq archived appears the archive name line the top the article this faq archived graphics resources list part there mail server that machine you send mail message mail server pit manager mit edu containing the keyword help without quotes the message body you can see many other places for this listing see the item places find the resource listing for more information items changed arranged the subjects order fir better the article limit plan changing headers soon careful only the resource listing keys are sure remain the subject line computer graphics ftp site list eric haines mail servers and graphics oriented bbses plotting packages thinking making this post weekly what you think lines which got changed have the character front them added lines are prepended with removed lines are just removed use diff locate these changes this text copyright nikolaos fotis you can copy freely this file provided you keep this copyright notice intact compiled nikolaos nick fotis mail nfotis theseas ntua please contact for updates corrections etc disclaimer not guarantee the accuracy this document use your own risk this mainly guide for computer graphics software would suggest reading the comp graphics faq for image analysis stuff entitled date comp graphics frequently asked questions faq john grieggs grieggs jpl devvax jpl nasa gov the poster the official comp graphics faq have included comments within braces and nikolaos fotis contents the resource listing part places find the resource listing archie notes computer graphics ftp site list eric haines mail servers and graphics oriented bbses ray tracing graphics related mailing lists graphics editors public domain free and shareware systems commercial systems scene description languages solids description formats part plotting packages image analysis software image processing and display part scene generators geographical data maps data files scanners digitized data background imagery textures datafiles introduction rendering algorithms ray tracing buffer depth buffer others where can find the geometric data for the teapot space shuttle image annotation software scientific visualization stuff molecular visualization stuff gis geographical information systems software future additions please send updates info places find the resource listing this file crossposted comp graphics comp answers and news answers you can locate comp graphics you advised search comp answers news answers the latter groups usually are archived your site contact your sysadmin for more info these articles are posted comp graphics times month and are kept many places see below many faqs including this one are available the archive site pit manager mit edu alias rtfm mit edu the directory pub usenet news answers the name under which faq archived appears the archive name line the top the article this faq archived graphics resources list part there mail server that machine you send mail message mail server pit manager mit edu containing help the subject field the inria graphlib mail server mirrors this posting see under the subject mail servers the resource listing accesible through wais the machine enuxva eas asu edu port under the name graphics resources list got digest type line before every numbered item for purposes indexing another place that monitors the listing the maasinfo files for more info contact robert maas rem btr com yet another place search for faqs general the switch swiss academic and research network system switzerland interactive telnet nic switch login info move the info service usenet periodic postings directory search the index file typing and the word look for you may then just read the faq the faqs directory decide fetch one the following methods ftp login nic switch user anonymous and enter your internet style address after being prompted for password info service usenet periodic postings mail send mail rfc archive server nic switch archive server nic switch prmd switch admd arcom enter help the bodypart receive instructions information required the subject header line archie the archie service system locate ftp places for requested files appreciated that you will use archie before asking help the newsgroups archie servers archie aussie archie funet finland eur archie darmstadt ger huji israel archie kuis kyoto japan archie sogang korea archie ncu edu telnet twn archie doc ireland archie sura net usa archie unl edu password archie usa archie ans net usa archie rutgers edu usa archie new zealand connect archie server with telnet and type archie username get help type help you can get xarchie archie which are clients that call archie without the burden telnet session xarchie the contrib tape and archie comp sources misc vol get information how use archie via mail send mail with subject help archie account any above sites note janet pss users the united kingdom archie site accessible the janet host doc connect and specify archie the host name and archie the username notes excerpted from the faq article please not post mail messages saying can ftp could someone mail this there are number automated mail servers that will send you things like this response message there are number sites that archive the usenet sources newsgroups and make them available via email query system you send message automated server saying something like send comp sources unix fbm and few hours days later you get the file the mail computer graphics ftp site list eric haines computer graphics related ftp sites and maintainers compiled eric haines erich eye com and nick fotis nfotis theseas ntua ray tracers rayshade great ray tracer for workstations also for mac amiga pov son and successor dkb trace written compuservers for more questions call drew wells compuserve com dave buck david buck carleton art ray tracer with good range surface types part vort package dkbtrace another good ray tracer from all reports pcs mac amiga unix vms last two with previewer etc rtrace portugese ray tracer does bicubic patches csg text etc etc dos version for use with djgpp dos extender exists also mac port vivid shareware raytracer for pcs binary only author stephen coy coy ssc vax boeing com the source version available registered users direct from the author ray steve hollasch dimensional ray tracer renders hyperspheres hypertetrahedra hyperplanes and hyperparallelepipeds there separate real time wireframe viewer written called wire mtv qrt dbw yet more ray tracers some with interesting features distributed parallel raytracers xdart distributed ray tracer that runs under there are server binaries which work only decstations sparcs snakes series and next the clients are distributed binaries and source inetray network version rayshade needs sun rpc newer contact andreas thurnherr ant ips ethz prt pray parallel ray tracers volume renderers vrend cornell volume renderer from kartch devine caffey warren fortran radiosity and diffuse lighting renderers radiance ray tracer radiosity effects greg ward excellent shading models and physically based lighting simulation unix based though has been ported the amiga and the india indian radiosity package based radiance sgi rad interactive radiosity package that runs sgi machines with spaceball includes house database author guy moreillon moreillo ligsg epfl rad simple public domain radiosity package the solution can run stand alone any unix box but the walk through requires sgi author bernard kwok kwok yorku renderers which are not raytracers and graphics libraries sipp scan line buffer and phong shading renderer now uses the shadow buffer algorithm tcl sipp tcl command interface the sipp rendering program tcl sipp set tcl commands used programmed sipp without having write and compile code commands are used specify surfaces objects scenes and rendering options renders either ppm format utah raster toolkit rle format the photo widget the based applications vogle graphics learning environment device portable vogl sgi like library based vogle rend fast polygon renderer for intel and version not photorealistic but rather real time renderer xsharp dobb journal renderer source code with budget texture mapping modellers wireframe viewers vision mac modeler can output radiance rayshade files irit csg solid modeler with support for freeform surfaces wireframe viewer for wireframe graphics toolkit with source objects other stuff look major archives like wuarchive one such file dkit zip shareware front end modeler for povray still beta test french docs for now price for registering french francs save disabled some extra utilities dxf files for the registered version geometric viewers salem based package from dobkin for exploring mathematical structures geomview based package for looking and interactively manipulating objects from geometry center minnesota xyz geobench experimental geometry zurich workbench for geometric computation for macintosh computers wire wireframe previewer for steve hollasch ray see above data formats and data sets for ray tracing spd set procedural databases for testing ray tracers nff simplistic file format used spd off another file format lispy file format tddd imagine modeler format has converters for rayshade nff off etc also includes nice postscript object displayer some great models ttdddlib converts from tddd ttddd off nff rayshade imagine and vort objects also outputs framemaker mif files and isometric views postscript registered users get tex font converter and superquadric surfaces generator glenn lewis glewis pcocd intel com note ttdddlib also known dlib chvrtd chapel hill volume rendering test datasets includes volume sets for two heads brain knee electron density maps for rna and others written material rendering news collections articles ray tracing bib references articles ray tracing refer format rad bib references articles radiosity global illumination speer bib rick speer cross referenced bib postscript abstracts collection tom wilson abstracts many articles paper bank project various technical papers electronic form contact juhana kouhia tut online bibliography project the acm siggraph online bibliography project database over unique computer graphics and computational geometry references bibtex format available the computer graphics community research and educational resource the database located siggraph org users may download the bibtex files via ftp and peruse them offline telnet siggraph org and log biblio and interactively search the database for entries interest keyword for the people without internet access there also mail server send mail archive server siggraph org and the subject the body the message include the message send followed the topic and subtopic you wish good place start with the command send index which will give you date list available information additions corrections suggestions may directed the admin bibadmin siggraph org image manipulation libraries utah raster toolkit nice image manipulation tools pbmplus great package for image conversion and manipulation libtiff library for reading writing tiff images imagemagick package for display and interactive manipulation images uses its own format miff and includes some converters based image display manipulation and format converter xloadimage xli displays various formats screen khoros huge excellent system for image processing with visual programming interface and much much more uses windows fbm another set image manipulation tools somewhat old now img image manipulation displays screen bit old now xflick plays fli animation under xanim plays any resolution fli along with gif including gif animation extensions and amiga iff animations and iff pictures including ham ehb and color cycling sdsc sdsc image tools package san diego supercomputing center for image manipulation and conversion clrpaint bit paint program for sgi bit workstations and bit indigos libraries with code for graphics graphics gems iii code from the ever useful books spline patch tar spline patch ray intersection routines sean graves kaleido computation and display uniform polyhedra mirrored wuarchive this package computes and displays the metrical properties polyhedra author zvi har mail gauss technion means site official distributor most date north america please look for things your own continent first wuarchive wustl edu graphics graphics get contents file for roadmap graphics graphics objects tddd the ttddd objects and converters mirrors unix graphics rayshade ray tracer mtv ray tracer vort ray tracer fbm pbmplus popi utah raster toolkit mirrors msdos graphics dkb ray tracer fli raytracker demos pub rad tar sgi rad graphics graphics radiosity radiance and indian radiosity package msdos ddjmag ddj zip version xsharp with fast texture mapping there lots more including bibs graphics gems code off rtn radiance nff sipp spline patch intersection routines textbook errata source code from roy hall book illumination and color computer generated imagery etc graphics graphics packages kaleido kaleido george kyriazis kyriazis turing rpi edu princeton edu pub graphics note capital rayshade ray tracer and separate executable color quantization code spd news wilson abstracts bib utah raster toolkit newer fbm graphics gems iii code pub graphics directory salem and other stuff craig kolb cek princeton edu replaces weedeater math yale edu note the capital pub graphics because there trouble with princeton incoming area you can upload rayshade specific stuff weedeater math yale edu alfred ccs carleton pub dkbtrace dkb ray tracer pub pov ray pov ray pvray compuserve group ray tracer pov david buck david buck carleton avalon chinalake navy mil objects multiple formats utilities file format documents this site was created object repository for the net francisco dejesus dejesus archimedes chinalake navy mil omicron unc edu pub softlab chvrtd chapel hill volume rendering test datasets ftp com official ddj ftp repository xsharp peipa essex the pilot european image processing archive directory ipa synth something like that there are image synthesis packages adrian clarke alien essex barkley berkeley edu tcl extensions tsipp tar tcl sipp mark diekhans markd grizzly com markd neosoft com acs cps msu edu pub sass window fonts converter into rayshade polygons rayshade animation tool ron sass sass cps msu edu hobbes lbl gov radiance ray trace radiosity package greg ward gjward lbl gov geom umn edu pub geomview geomview contact for geomview software geom umn edu ftp arc umn edu pub gvl tar the latest version bob icol and raz source manual man pages and binaries for irix are included bob real time volume renderer pub contains also many volume datasets ken chin purcell ken ahpcrc umn edu ftp kpc com pub graphics holl steve hollasch thesis pub graphics ray ray pub graphics wire wire pub mirror avalon mirror avalon objects repository steve hollasch hollasch kpc com swedishchef lerc nasa gov programs hollasch ray sgi explorer modules and postscript manual etc zamenhof rice edu pub graphics formats various electronic documents about many object and image formats mark hall foo rice edu will apparently longer maintaining see ftp ncsa uiuc edu rascal ics utexas edu misc mac inqueue vision facet based modeller can output rayshade and radiance files ftp ncsa uiuc edu misc file formats graphics formats contains various image and object format descriptions many scivi tools various directories sgi alpha shape alvis tar alpha shape visualizer sgi machines only sgi polyview polyview interactive visualization and analysis geometrical structures quincey koziol koziol ncsa uiuc edu tucana noao edu iraf the iraf astronomy package ftp ipl rpi edu sigma erich spd images and haines thesis images pub images various and bit image stills and sequences kevin martin sigma ipl rpi edu ftp psc edu pub tar lispy scene language renderers joel welling welling seurat psc edu ftp lbl gov pbmplus tar rayshade data files jef poskanzer jef ace lbl gov george lbl gov pub ccs lib ccs tar ccs complex conversion system standard software interface for image processing hanauma stanford edu pub graphics comp graphics best comp graphics very extensive ray tracers dbw mtv qrt and more joe dellinger joe hanauma stanford edu ftp net graphics irit news back issues not complete nurbs models other graphics related material graphics jpeg jpegsrc tar independent jpeg group package for reading and writing jpeg files freebie engin umich edu utah raster toolkit spencer thomas thomas eecs umich edu export lcs mit edu contrib pbmplus image magick xloadimage xli img lots more pub untarred mit demos gpc ncga graphics performance characterization gpc suite life pawl rpi edu pub ray kyriazis stochastic ray tracer george kyriazis kyriazis turing rpi edu utah edu pub utah raster toolkit nurbs databases jamie painter jamie utah edu gatekeeper dec com pub dec off tar off models also gpc benchmark files planned but not checked randi rost rost kpc com hubcap clemson edu pub amiga incoming imagine stuff for the amiga imagine turbo silver ray tracers pub amiga ttdddlib ttdddlib pub amiga incoming imagine objects many objects glenn lewis glewis pcocd intel com pprg eece unm edu pub khoros khoros image processing package huge but great danielle argiro danielle bullwinkle unm edu expo lcs mit edu contrib pbmplus portable bitmap package poskbitmaptars bitmap collection raveling img xloadimage jef poskanzer jef well venera isi edu pub img tar and img tar some image manipulation pub images rgb separation photos paul raveling raveling venera isi edu ucsd edu graphics utah rle toolkit pbmplus fbm databases mtv dbw and other ray tracers world map other stuff not updated much recently castlab engr wisc edu pub tar pub xdart xdart mark spychalla spy castlab engr wisc edu sgi com graphics tiff tiff spec libtiff software and pics also much sgi and related stuff opengl manuals sam leffler sam sgi com supercedes okeeffe berkeley edu for the libtiff stuff surya waterloo edu graphics fbm ray tracers ftp sdsc edu sdscpub sdsc ftp brl mil brl cad information how get the brl cad package ray tracer images various test images texture library has also begun here lee butler butler brl mil cicero umass edu texture temp grayscale brodatz textures from julien flack julien scs leeds karazm math edu pub graphics rtabs shar wilson abstracts pray eric townsend jet karazm math edu jet nas nasa gov ftp pitt edu users qralston images bit image archive small james ralston crawford qralston pitt edu ftp cornell edu pub vis vrend sunee waterloo edu pub raytracers vivid rend sunee uwaterloo archive umich edu msdos graphics graphics stuff msdos graphics raytrace vivid apple apple com pub archivevol prt research att com netlib graphics spd package polyhedra polyhedra databases you don have ftp use the netlib automatic mail replier uucp research netlib internet netlib ornl gov send one line message send index for more info send haines from graphics get the spd siggraph org siggraph archive site publications online bibliography project conference proceedings various electronic formats papers panels siggraph video review information and order forms other stuff various directories automatic mailer archive server siggraph org send index ftp unc edu pub reaction diffusion greg turk work reaction diffusion textures windows code siggraph avs ncsc org ftp volvis volume datasets from the boston workshop volume visualization this site also the international avs center terry myerson tvv ncsc org uvacs virginia edu pub suit demo sparc dec etc suit simple user interface toolkit finger suit uvacs virginia edu get detailed instructions nexus yorku pub reports radiosity code tar rad pub reports radiosity thesis rad msc thesis this site will changed ftp yorku the near future milton washington edu ftp public veos veos virtual reality and distributed applications prototyping environment for unix veos software support veos support hitl washington edu oldpublic fly fly visualization software demo that package built for fly throughs from various datasets near real time there are binaries for many platforms also much other virtual reality stuff zug csmil umich edu xpecs files lcd glass shutter for amiga computers great for stuff sugrfx acs syr edu various stereo pair images has closed down sunsite unc edu pub academic computer science virtual reality final copy the sugrfx acs syr edu archive that ceased exist contains powerglove code papers images and irc research material jonathan magid jem sunsite unc edu archive cis ohio state edu pub siggraph code for siggraph course procedural modeling and rendering techniques david ebert ebert cis ohio state edu lyapunov ucsd edu this machine considered the repository for preprints and programs for nonlinear dynamics signal processing and related subjects and fractals course matt kennel mbk inls ucsd edu cod nosc mil pub grid tex ascii short survey methods interpolate and contour bivariate data ics uci edu honig various stereo pair images movie animates movie display bit and mono with digital subtraction taurus nps navy mil pub dabro cyberware demo tar human head data pioneer unm edu pub texture maps hans buf grayscale test textures aerial swatches brodatz textures synthetic swatches space planetary image repository provides access roms with data images line time pub info beginner info here you should start browsing colby kraybill opus pioneer unm edu brown edu srgp sphigs for more info srgp sphigs mail software distribution graphtext brown edu pdb pdb bnl gov has data about various organic molecules bonds between the different atoms etc atomic coordinates and load other stuff are contained the ent files but the actual atomic dimemsions seem missing you could convert these data pov rayshade etc biome bio pub art some renoir paintings escher pictures etc umanitoba specmark sample set images from the images from the edge rom images atomic landscapes advanced semiconductors superconductors and experimental surface chemistry among others contact ruskin umanitoba explorer dgp toronto edu pub sgi clrpaint clrpaint pub sgi clrview clrview tool that aids visualization gis datasets may formats like dxf dem arc info etc ames arc nasa gov pub space cdrom images from magellan and viking missions etc get pub space index first pub spacelink has most the spacelink service data see below mail server available send mail archive server ames arc nasa gov ames archive server with subject help send space index without the quotes peter yee yee ames arc nasa gov pubinfo jpl nasa gov images other data etc from jpl missions modem access parity data bits stop bit newsdesk jplpost jpl nasa gov phone spacelink msfc nasa gov passwd guest space graphics and gif images from nasa planetary probes and the hubble telescope main function support for teachers you can telnet also this site dial access baud bits parity stop bit stsci edu hubble space telescope stuff images and other data read the readme first pete reppert reppert stsci edu chris dea odea stsci edu pit manager mit edu pub usenet news answers the land faqs graphics and pictures directories particular interest also available from mail server pit manager mit edu sending mail message containing help uucp archive avatar news back issues for details write kory hamzeh kory avatar avatar com europe nic funet pub sci papers paper bank project including pete shirley entire thesis with pics wilson abstracts pub misc cia worldmap cia world data bank comp graphics research archive india and much much more juhana kouhia tut dasun epfl radiance good for european sites but doesn carry the add ons that are available for radiance isy liu pub sipp sipp tar sipp scan line buffer and phong shading renderer jonas yngvesson jonas isy liu irisa ipsc pray ray tracer spd nff many non spd nff format scenes rayshade data files didier badouel badouel irisa irisa may have disappeared phoenix oulu fli raytracker animation files vga also big flis rayscene demos americans check wuarchive first more animations come jari kahkonen hole phoenix oulu jyu pub graphics ray traces many ray tracers including pray dbw dkb mtv qrt rayshade some news nff files jari toivanen toivanen jyu garbo uwasa much stuff etc source contour fortran program contour scattered data using linear triangle based interpolation asterix inescn pub rtrace rtrace nffutils tar nff utilities for rtrace medical data cat etc converters nff autocad nff autolisp code autocad scn rtrace language converter and other goodies antonio costa acc asterix inescn vega hut graphics rtn archive ray tracers mtv qrt others nff some models was shut down months ago check under nic funet nfotis sun nluug pub graphics raytrace dbw microray mtv etc unix hensa misc unix ralcgm ralcgm tar cgm viewer and converter there mail server also mail archive unix hensa with the message body send misc unix ralcgm ralcgm tar maeglin luth graphics raytracing prt others doc wilson abstracts vivid ftp berlin pub unix graphics rayshade inputs tar rayshade aquarium americans check princeton edu first heiko schlichting heiko math berlin maggia ethz pub inetray inetray and sun rpc code andreas thurnherr ant ips ethz osgiliath dth pub amiga graphics radiance amiga port radiance per bojsen bojsen ithil dth ftp informatik uni oldenburg pov raytracer mirrored wuarchive has many goods for pov pub dkbtrace incoming polyray polyray raytracer pub dkbtrace incoming ftp uni pub amiga raytracing imagine mirror the hubcap imagine files neptune inf ethz xyz xyz geobench peter schorn schorn inf ethz iamsun unibe graphics graphtal system interpreter christoph streit streit iam unibe amiga physik unizh amiga gfx graphics stuff for the amiga computer stesis eso org line access huge astronomical database login starcat passwd decnet stesis the space telescope european coordination facility benoit pirenne bpirenne eso org phone middle east gauss technion kaleida australia gondwana ecr pub vort art ray tracer vogle wilson ray tracing abstracts pub contrib artscenes art scenes from italy pub images haines haines thesis images graphics gems code spd nff off databases nff and off previewers plus some and bit images and lots other stuff pub rad tar sgi rad bernie kirby bernie ecr munnari pub graphics vort tar vort art csg and algebraic surface ray tracer vogle pub dbw pbmplus graphics room tar art scenes from italy david hook dgh munnari marsh curtin edu pub graphics bibliography facial animation pub graphics bibliography morph pub graphics bibliography stuff about facial animation morphing and user interfaces pub fascia fred parke fascia program valerie hall val lillee curtin edu oceania asia ccu auckland ftp mac architec vision facet based modeller can output rayshade files many other neat things for macs paul bourke pdbourke ccu auckland for users outside wuarchive wustl edu directory mirrors architec scslwide sony ftp sgi facial animation steve franks site for facial animation steve franks stevef csl sony stevef umr edu mail servers and graphics oriented bbses please check first with the ftp places above with archie help don overuse mail servers there are some troubles with wrong return addresses many these mail servers have command like path valid return mail address get hint for sending back you stuff dec ftpmail send one line message ftpmail decwrl dec com without subject field and having line containing the word help you should get back message detailing the relevant procedures you must follow order get the files you want note that the reply answer command your mailer will not work for this message any other mail you receive from ftpmail send requests ftpmail send original mail message not reply complaints should sent the ftpmail request uucp dec com address rather than postmaster since decwrl postmaster not responsible for fixing ftpmail problems bitftp for bitnet sites only there bitftp pucc send one line help message this address for more info red red listserv redirector essentially mail server the server sites that are available are location earn bitnet internet turkey trickle trearn trickle ege edu denmark trickle dktc italy trickle imipoli belgium trickle banufs trickle ufsia austria trickle awiwuw germany trickle rus trickle rusvm rus uni stuttgart israel trickle taunivm trickle tau netherlands trickle hearn trickle hearn nic surfnet france trickle frmop trickle frmop cnusc colombia trickle unalcol trickle unalcol unal edu taiwan trickle twnmoe trickle twnmoe edu you are urged use the one that closer your location send message one these containing the body help and you get more instructions lightwave mail based file server mail based file server for objects bit jpeg images gif images and image maps now online for all those with internet mail access the server the official archive site for the lightwave mail list and contains many and shareware graphics utilities for several computer platforms including amiga atari ibm and macintosh the server resides bbs called the graphics bbs the bbs operational hours day days week the phone number has upgraded its modem hayes ultra bis bis which has speeds from bps bps you would like submit objects scenes images the server please pack uuencode and then mail the files the address server bobsbox rent com for information obtaining files from the server send mail message the address file server graphics rent com with the following the body the message help dir and help file describing how use the server and complete directory listing will sent you via mail now includes the cyberware head and shouders ttddd format check out only you can use ftp nfotis inria graphlib pierre jancene and sabine coquillart launched the inria graphlib mail server few months ago echo help mail inria graphlib inria will give you quick summary what inria graphlib contains and how browse among its files echo send contents mail inria graphlib inria will return the extended summary other example echo send cgrl from misc mail inria graphlib inria will return the computer graphics resource listing mirrored from comp graphics bbses there are many bbses that store datafiles etc etc but guide these beyond the scope this listing and the resources the author you can point internet mail accessible bbses that carry interesting stuff send info studio amiga modelling and ray tracing specific bbs hours meg online from jeff walkup pwappy well the castle bis bis mnp pacifica dang close san francisco california usa the new user password tao oin base the castle anim video which the sig lazerus bob lindabury operates bbs see above the entry for the graphics bbs you can call ray ray tracing related bbs chicago suburbs digital pixel sysop mark mcng descartes waterloo edu based toronto ontario canada phone storage space megs modem type baud zyxel bis mnp access fee none free system supported dos amiga mac netmail currently echo mail topics raytracing fractals graphics programming cad any comp graphics related from david tiberio dtiberio sunysb edu amiga graphics bbs long island new york running hours bis with megs line also subscribe mailing lists which originate from our bbs with more added soon these include lightwave imagine real ray tracing database files include imagine objects renderings scalable fonts music modules sound samples demos animations utilities text databases and pending lightwave objects the graphics alternative the graphics alternative cerrito running hours day hst bis with online and user base tga runs two nodes node for public access and includes free day trial subscription tga the west coast host for pcgnet the profesional cad and graphics network supporting nodes across the continental alaska new zealand australia france and the tga file database includes dos executables for pov vivid rtrace rayshade polyray and others tga also has numerous graphics utilities viewers and conversion utilities registered vivid users can also download the latest vivid aeta code from special vivid conference from scott bethke sbathkey access digex com the intersection bbs this bbs dedicated supporting animators the system provided free charge and not commercialized anyway users are given full access the first call features usenet news internet mail fidonet echo netmail megs online bis bis modem platforms interest amiga the videotoaster macintosh dos unix workstations sun sgi etc atari from alfonso hermida afanh robots gsfc nasa gov square bbs maryland supports raytracers such pov and vivid the bbs runs off mhz megs hard drive and rom now runs bps this will change soon topics graphics programming animation raytracing programming general from lynn falkow roxxie delphi com vertech design graphic connection portland oregon bis the bbs aside from carrying typical bbs services like message bases all topic specific and files cad and graphics related hundreds megabytes also offers material texture files that are full color seamlessly tiling photo realistic images there are samples available first time callers the bbs subscription system although callers have hours before they must subscribe and there are several subscription rates available people interested materials can subscribe the library addition basic subscription rate and can use their purchased time download whichever materials they wish ray tracing graphics related mailing lists imagine modeling and animation system for the amiga send subscription requests imagine request email paramax com send material imagine email paramax com dave wickard has substituted steve worley the maintenance the mailing list please note that the unisys com address longer valid lightwave for the amiga part newtek video toaster send subscription requests lightwave request bobsbox rent com send material lightwave bobsbox rent com bob lindabury toaster send subscription requests listserv karazm math edu with body subscribe toaster list real another modeling and animation system for the amiga subscribe send mail containing the body subscribe real your full name listserv uwa edu rayshade send subscription requests rayshade request princeton edu send material rayshade users princeton edu craig kolb alladin for the amiga send subscription requests subscribe xamiga linet org and the body the message write alladin username domain radiance greg ward the author sends registered via mail users digests his correspodence with them notes about fixes updates etc his address gjward lbl gov rend send subscription requests rend request sunee waterloo edu send material rend sunee waterloo edu pov ray dkb raytracers subscribe send mail containing the body subscribe dkb your full name listserv trearn bitnet send material dkb trearn bitnet mailing list for massively parallel rendering send subscription requests render request icase edu send material render icase edu graphics editors public domain free and shareware systems vision mac based program written paul bourke pdbourke ccu aukland the program can used generate models directly the rayshade and radiance file formats polygons only shareware and listed the ftp list brl solid modeling system for most environments including sgi and has csg and nurbs plus support for non manifold geometry whatever you can get free via ftp signing and returning the relevant license found ftp brl mil uses ray tracing for engineering analyses contact carla moyer tel fax cad dist brl mil mail snail mail brl cad distribution surviac aberdeen satellite office old philadelphia road suite aberdeen usa irit constructive solid geometry csg modeling program for and includes freeform surface support free see ftp list for where find surfmodel solid modeling program for written turbo pascal ken van camp available from simtel msdos srfmodl directory noodles from cmu namely fritz printz and levent gursoz elg styx edrc cmu edu based non manifold topology ask them for more info don know they give away xyz xyz interactive editor builder written dale stocker create objects for the surfacemodel automove and dkb raytracer packages xyz free and can found for example simtel msdos surfmodl xyz zip dos only dmod msdos program check barnacle erc clarkson edu pub msdos graphics dmod undocumented file format dmod micah silverman pierrepoint ave postdam new york tel northcad shareware msdos cad ncad zip simtel undocumented file format vertex amiga shareware send check money order the art machine nickolas sterling heights usa addition the now standard file formats including lightwave imagine sculpt turbo silver geo and wavefront this release offers professional and rayshade support rayshade supported only the primitive triangle but you can easily include this output your rayshade scripts the latest demo version available fred fish for more information contact the author alex deburie sycom org phone icoons amiga spline based object modeller icoons interactive coons path editor amiga physik unizh gfx icoons lzh free under the gnu licence and requires fpu the program has look feel which cross between journeyman and imagine and generates objects ttddd format possible load journeyman objects into icoons the program can used convert jman objects imagine format author helge rasmussen her compel phone fax also fred fish disk series nfotis protocad ver from trius shareware wsmr simtel army mil and oak oakland edu pcad zip for pcs has this menu layout file file handling load save import xport draw draw objects line circle box draw objects mesh sphere block edit editing features copy move surface modify objects revolve xtrude sweep image image zooming features update window half option global defaults grid toggles axis plot print drawing picture image render shade objects frame lighting tune layer layer options select active layer set colors sculptura runs under windows and outputs pov files demo can found wuarchive wustl edu mirrors win demo demo zip author michael gibson gibsonm stein washington edu commercial systems alpha spline based modeling program written university utah features splines trimmed nurbs support for boolean operations sweeps bending warping flattening etc groups objects and transformations extensible object types applications include machining animation utilities dimensioning fem analysis etc rendering subsystem with support for animations support the following platforms and sgi machines and irix sun sparcstation sunos licensing and distribution handled egs glenn mcminn president engineering geometry systems east south temple suite salt lake city mcminn utah edu educational pricing the charge per platform you may run the system many different workstations that type you wish for each platform there also licensing fee for portable standard lisp psl which bundled with the system you need obtain additional license from the university utah for psl from the following address professor robert kessler computer science department university utah salt lake city utah egs can handle the licensing psl for institutions for usd nominal fee nfotis vertigo they have educational institution program the package used the industrial design architectural scientific visualization educational broadcast imaging and post production fields they quoting from letter sent nfotis donate fully configured vertigo graphics software worth over usd per package qualified educational institutions for licencing any number silicon graphics personal iris power series workstations you use iris indigo station will also licence our vertigo revolution software worth usd you are interested participating this program please send letter mail fax your institution letterhead briefly outlining your potential uses for vertigo together with the following information unix version model and number sgi systems peripheral devices third party software participants will asked contribute usd per institution cover costs the manual administration and shipping recommend that vertigo users subscribe our technical support services for annual fee you will receive technical assistance our support hotline bug fixes software upgrades and manual updates for educational institution will waive the administration fee support purchased the annual support fee plus the following cost for additional machines number machines additional cost per machine there also day training program nfotis contact vertigo technology inc suite west georgia vancouver canada phone fax does anyone know such offers from tdi alias softimage wavefront etc this would very interesting part nfotis padl basically solid modeling kernel top which you build your application available license from cornell programmable automation cornell university engineering and theory center ithaca license fees are very low for educational institutions and gov agencies internal commercial licenses and dissemination licenses are available for information packet write the above address send your address marisa cpa cornell edu richard marisa acis from spatial technology solid modelling kernel callable from heard that many universities got free copies from the company the person contact regarding acis academic institutions scott owens mail sdo spatial com and their address spatial technology inc bldg boulder phone fax movie byu cquel byu basically understanding this fem pre and post proccessor system fairly old today but still serves some people mech eng depts now superseded from cquel byu pronounced sequel that complete modelling animation and visualization package runs the usual workstation environments sun dec sgi ibm and others you can get demo version days trial period either sending usd their address blank tape costs for full run time licence contact engineering computer graphics lab clyde building brigham young univ provo phone mail cquel byu edu twixt soon add stuff about get reply fax voxblast volume renderer marketed vaytek inc fairfield iowa phone running pcs with fpu least call vaytek for more info voxelbox volume renderer for windows features include direct ray traced volume rendering color and alpha mapping gradient lighting animation reflections and shadows runs higher with least bit video card svga fine under windows costs contact jaguar software inc main suite winchester jwp world std com john poduska scene description languages nff neutral file format eric haines very simple there are some procedural database generators the spd package and many objects floating various ftp sites there also previewer written starbase from haines also there one written vogle you can use any the devices vogle can output check sites carrying vogle like gondwana ecr off object file format from dec randy rost rost kpc com the object archive server seems mothballed future version remove the ref nfotis available also through their mail server obtain help about using this service send message with subject line containing only the word help and null message body object archive server decwrl dec com for ftp places get see the relevant place there off previewer for sgi machines called off preview godzilla cgl rmit there are previewers for xview and sunview also gondwana tddd library objects with translators from off nff rayshade imagine vort objects edited copy the announcement follows from raytracing news new library objects available via ftp steve worley worley cup portal com have assembled set over objects binary format called tddd these objects range from human figures airplanes from semi trucks lampposts these objects are all freely distributable and most have readmes that describe them order convert these objects human readable format file with the specification tddd included the directory with the objects there also shareware system called ttdddlib officially hubcap clemson edu that will convert ala pbm from various object formats imagine ttddd extension tddd off nff rayshade vort source included for amiga unix executables for the amiga also outputs framemaker mif files and isometric views postscript from pittsburgh supercomputing center the uses lisp with slight extensions store three dimensional models simple lisp interpreter included with the release there need have access any vendor lisp run this software the mouse driven user interfaces for motif open look and silicon graphics and the drawp subroutine library for generating without ever looking the underlying lisp the software currently supports nine renderers they are painter painter algorithm dore silicon graphics inc language generic phigs sun phigs dec phigs rayshade art ray tracer from vort package and pixar renderman the code available via anonymous ftp from the machines ftp psc edu directory pub and nic funet directory pub graphics programs renderman pixar renderman not free call pixar for details solids description formats eec esprit project cad cad interfaces has developed neutral file format for transfer cad data curves surfaces and solid models between cad systems and from cad caa computer aided analysis cam computer aided manufacturing iges now tries define standard tranfer solid models brep and csg the current standard number ansi for documentation you might want contact nancy flower ncga technical services and standards ext and the cost this standard not available electronic format pdes step this slowly emerging standard tries encompass not only the geometrical information but also for things like fem etc the main bodies besides this standard are nist and darpa you can get more information about pdes sending mail nptserver cme nist gov and putting the line send index the body not the subject area the message the people rutherford appleton lab are also working step tools they have express compiler and exchange file parser both available source form and for free for research purposes soon they will also have express based database system for the tools contact mike mead phone fax mail inf mcsun uknet rlinf inf nsfnet relay end part the resource listing nick nikolaos fotis national technical univ athens greece home esperidon internet nfotis theseas ntua halandri uucp mcsun ariadne theseas nfotis athens greece fax
comp.graphics	apr computer graphics resource listing weekly part archive name graphics resources list part last modified computer graphics resource listing weekly posting part last change april plotting packages gnuplot one the best and plotting packages with online help command line driven interactive function plotting utility for unix msdos amiga archimedes and vms platforms least freely distributed supports many terminals plotters and printers and easily extensible include new devices was posted comp sources misc version plus patches you can practically find everywhere use archie find site near you the comp graphics gnuplot newsgroup devoted discussion gnuplot xvgr and xmgr ace xmgr plotting tool for unix workstations using openwindows there xview version called xvgr for suns collectively these tools are known ace compiling xmgr requires the motif toolkit version and xmgr will not compile under motif check ftp ccalmr ogi edu ccalmr pub acegr xmgr tar motif version ccalmr pub acegr xvgr tar xview version comments suggestions bug reports paul turner pturner amb ese ogi edu mail fails try pturner ese ogi edu due time constraints replies will few and far between robot release and limited based xview written fortran you need fortran compiler the translator mainly tested sun less decstations check ftp astro psu edu pub astrod plotting library this library fortran callable routines sunspot ceee nist gov xgobi being developed bellcore and its speciality are multidimensional data sets analysis and exploration you can call from the language also and works client using the athena widget set with ascii terminal distributed free charge from statlib cmu get via mail send email statlib temper stat cmu edu and the body area the message put the line send xgobi from general you want pick via ftp connect lib stat cmu edu log statlib and use your mail address your password then type general mget xgobi warning about sources large postscript manual read the relevant readme decide whether you need not pgplot runs vax vms and supposedly unix set fortran routines freely available though copyrighted and requiring nominal fee that includes contour plots and support for various devices including contact tjp deimos caltech edu ggraph host shorty wisc edu pub ggraph tar unknown more details epigraph for pcs call dvj lab phys lgu spb vladimir dmitriev for details you can get the program demo and play version sent budapest posta fiok hungary fax budapest multiplot xln for amigas shareware usd aust advanced package that has big list features contact alan baxter agb mbuc bio cam cambridge university department pathology tennis court road cambridge athena plotter widget set this version based gregory bond version beta added some stuff for scientific graphs log axes free scalable axes lineplots and some more and added plotter callbacks from request the current pointer position cut off rectangle from the plotting area for zooming version has log bugs fixed and log improvements against beta additionally did some other changes extensions besides origin and frame lines for axes subgrid lines subtic positions line plots different line types lines points lines points impulses lines impulses steps bars line styles solid dotted dashed dot dashed and marker types for data points legend the right left hand side the plot optional drawing pixmap instead window layout callback for aligning axis positions when using multiple plotters one application available export lcs mit edu directory contrib plotter sciplot sciplot scientific plotting and manipulation program for the next requires nextstep and shareware features ascii import and export eps export copy cut paste with data buffer free number data points data buffer and document window selective open and save plotting many styles automatic legend subviews linear and logarithmic axes two different axes text and graphic color support zoom normalizing and moving axis conversions free hand data manipulations cut edit move etc data editor sorting data absolute relative and free defined error bars calculating with buffers background subtractions linear shirley tougaard bezier integration and relative integration fitting one more free defined functions linear regression calculations sin cos log etc function generator spline interpolation least square smooth and fft smooth differentiation fft esca calculations and database and something more you can find ftp berlin pub next science sciplot tar author michael wesemann scillerstr berlin germany mike fiasko berlin mpg plplot plplot scientific plotting package for many systems small micro and large super alike despite its small size and quickness has enough power satisfy most users including standard plots semilog plots log log plots contour plots plots mesh plots bar charts and pie charts multiple graphs the same different sizes may placed single page with multiple lines each graph different line styles widths and colors are supported virtually infinite number distinct area fill patterns may used there are almost characters the extended character set this includes four different fonts the greek alphabet and host mathematical musical and other symbols the fonts can scaled any size for various effects many different output device drivers are available system dependent including portable metafile format and renderer freely available but copyrighted via anonymous ftp hagar utexas edu directory pub plplot present plplot known work the following systems unix sunos unicos ultrix other platforms vms amiga exec dos next authors many the main supporters are maurice lebrun mjl fusion utexas edu plplot kernel and the metafile xterm xwindow tektronix and amiga drivers geoff furnish furnish fusion utexas edu dos and drivers tony richardson amr egr duke edu plplot the next supermongo plotting package cmu filename tmp tar probably under the ftp cmu edu andrew cmu edu machines gle gle high quality graphics package for scientists runs variety platforms pcs vaxes and unix with drivers for xwindows regis tek graphics cards plotters postscript printers epson compatible printers and laserjet paintjet printers provides latex quality fonts well full support for postscript fonts the graphing module provides full control over all features graphs the graphics primitives include user defined subroutines for complex pictures and diagrams accompanying utilities include surface for hidden line surface plotting contour for contour plots manip for manipulation columnar data files and fitls for fitting arbitrary equations data available via anon ftp these places gle simtel wuarchive wustl edu and other mirrors msdos graphics gle unix gle zephyr grace cri pub gle unix vms gle zephyr grace cri pub gle vms mailing list glelist send message listserver tbone biol scarolina edu with message boyd containing sub glelist your name maintainer dean pentcheff dean tbone biol scarolina edu image analysis software image processing and display and mac based tools multi platform software imdisp imdisp written jpl and other nasa sites can simple display enhancing smoothing and works with the fits and vicar pds data formats nasa can read tiff images you know their dimensions and macs labview labview used framework for image processing tools provides graphical programming environment using block diagram sketch the program with graphical elements representing the programming elements hundreds functions are already available and are connected using wiring tool create the block diagram program functions that the block diagrams represent include digital signal processing and filtering numerical analysis statistics etc the tool allows any virtual instrument software file that looks and acts like real laboratory instrument used part any other virtual instrument national instruments markets plug digital signal processing dsp boards for macintoshs and compatables that allow real time acquisition and analysis personal computer new software tools for dsp are allowing engineers harness the power this technology the tools range from low level debugging software high level block diagram development software there are three levels dsp programming associated with the dsp board and labview use the dsp analysis library ffts power spectra filters routines callable from think and macintosh programers workshop mpw that execute the dsp board there analysis virtual interface library ready use vis optimized for the dsp use the national instruments developers toolkit that includes optimizing compiler assembler and linker for low level programming the dsp hardware this approach offers the highest level performance but the must difficult terms ease use use the national instruments interface kit software package which has utility functions for memory management data communications and downloading code the dsp board this the easiest route for the development custom code ultimage concept concept graftek france family image processing virtual instruments vis that give labview described above users high end tools for designing integrating and monitoring imaging control systems software file that looks and acts like real laboratory instrument typical applications for concept include thermography surveillance machine vision production testing biomedical imaging electronic microscopy and remote sensing ultimage concept addresses applications which require further qualitative and quantitative analysis includes complete set functions for image enhancement histogram equalization spatial and frequency filtering isolation features thresholding mathematical morphology analysis density measurement object counting sizing and characterization the program loads images with minimum resolution pixel depth bits and one image plane standard input and output formats include pict tiff satie and aipd other formats can imported image enhancement features include lookup table transformations spatial linear and non linear filters frequency filtering arithmetic and logic operations and geometric transformations among others morphological transformations include erosion dilation opening closing hole removal object separation and extraction skeletons among others quantitative analysis provides for objects detection measurement and morphological distribution measures include area perimeter center gravity moment inertia orientation length relevant chords and shape factors and equivalence measures are saved ascii format the program also provides for macro scripting and integration custom modules view command plots perspective data graph where image intensity depicted mountains valleys the plot the histogram tool can plotted with either linear logarithmic scale the twenty eight arithmetic and logical operations provide for masking and averaging sections images noise removal making comparisons etc there are spatial filters that alter pixel intensities based local intensity these include high pass filters for contrast and outlines the frequency data resulting from fft analysis can displayed either the real imaginary components the phase magnitude data the morphological transformations are useful for data sharpening and defining objects for removing artifacts the transformations include thresholding eroding dilating and even hole filling the program quantitative analysis measurements include area perimeter center mass object counts and angle between points gtfs inc bennett valley road santa rosa iplab spectrum iplab spectrum supports image processing and analysis but lacks the morphology and quantitative analysis features provided graftek franceus ultimage concept using scripting tools the user tells the system the operations performed the problem that far too many basic operations require manual intervention the tool supports ffts arithmetic operations for pixel alteration and movie command for cycling through windows macintosh based tools ncsa image ncsa paledit and more ncsa provides whole suite public domain visualization tools for the macintosh primarily aimed researchers wanting visualize results from numerical modelling calculations these applications documentation and source code are available for anonymous ftp from ftp ncsa uiuc edu commercial versions the ncsa programs have been developed spyglass spyglass inc devonshire drive champaign fax nih image available alw nih gov preferably zippy nimh nih gov directory pub image has painting and image manipulation tools macro language tools for measuring areas distances and angles and for counting things using frame grabber card can record sequences images played back movie can invoke user defined convolution matrix filters such gaussian can import raw data tab delimited ascii byte quantities also does histograms and even plots limited bits pixel though the bits map into color lookup table runs any mac that has color screen and fpu get the nonfpu version from zippy nimh nih gov photomac data translation inc locke marlboro photopress blue solutions marigold place thousand oaks pixeltools and tcl image complete family pixeltools hardware accelerator and applications software for scientific image processing and analysis video rate capture display processing and analysis high resolution monochromatic and color images includes source code tcl image software package for scientific quantitative image processing and analysis provides complete language for the capture enhancement and extraction quantitative information from gray scale images tcl image has over functions for image processing and contains the other elements needed full programming language for algorithm development variables and control structures easily extensible through script indirect command files these script files are simply text files that contain tcl image commands they are executed normal commands and include the ability pass parameters the direct capture video images supported via popular frame grabber boards tcl image comes with the view utility that provides conversion between common image file types such pict and tiff perceptics pellissippi parkway knoxville satellite image workshop comes with number satellite pictures raw data and does all sorts image enhancing you need least mac with processor color display and large harddisk the program doesn run under system ate the documentation the contact address given liz smith jet propulsion laboratory oak grove pasadena visualization workbench electronic imaging software system that performs interactive image analysis and scientific and plotting paragon imagine lincoln lowell adobe photoshop the tool supports rtrue colors with bit images levels grey scale once image has been imported can rre toucheds with various editing tools typical those used macintosh based rpaints applications these include eraser pencil brush and air brush advanced rpastes tools that control the interaction between pasted selection and the receiving site have also been incorporated for example all red pixels selection can easily preventing from being pasted photoshop has transparencies ranging from allowing you create ghost overlays rphoto editings tools include control the brightness and contrast color balancing hue saturation modification and spectrum equalization images can subjected various signal processing algorithms smooth sharpen the image blur edges locate edges image scaling also supported for storage savings the images can compressed using standard algorithms including externally supplied compression such jpeg availlable from storm technologies the latest version adobe photoshop supports the import numerous image formats including epsf epsf tiff pict resource amiga iff ilbm compuserve gif macpaint pixar pixelpaint scitex tga and thunderscan adobe systems inc charlestown road box mountain view colorstudio and imagestudio colorstudio image editing and paint package from letraset that has more features than adobe photoshop but decidedly more complex and therefore more difficult use several steps are often required accomplish that which can done single step using photoshop the application requires great deal available disk space one can easily end with images the range the program provides variety powerful selection tools including the auto selection tool which lets the user choose image areas the basis color close hues color range and mask imagestudio don know letraset usa eisenhower drive paramus dapple systems high resolution image analysis software provides processing tools work with multiple images enhance and edit and measure variety global feature parameters and interpret the data dapple systems olive ave sunnyvale digital darkroom the latest release digital darkroom has five new selection and editing tools for enhancing images one such feature allows the user select part image simply painting new polyline selection tool creates selection tool for single pixel wide selections brush lets the operator paint with selected portion the image note that this not true color image enhancement tool this tool should used when the user intends operate grey scale images only should noted that digital darkroom not powerful either adobe photoshop colorstudio silicon beach software carroll ctr suite san diego dimple compatible with system and system requires mac series with colours with recommended min ram has the capability reading erdas files functions include image enhancement and contour plots image statistics supervised and unsupervised classification pca and other image transformations there also means image operation language iol which you can write your own transformations there image rectification however dimple compatable with mapii the latest version and the beta stage testing dimple was initially developed teaching tool and very good for this purpose dimple runs colour macintosh product still its development phase doesn have all the inbuilt features other packages but coming along nicely has its own inbuilt language for writing programs for processing image defining convolution filters etc dimple full mac application with pull down menus etc unprotected software process software solutions box wollongong new south wales australia phone fax enhance enhance has rrulers tool that supports measurements and additionally provides angle data the tool has over mathematical filter variations laplacian medium noise filter etc files can saved either tiff pict epsf text however epsf files can imported microfrontier hickman road des moines image analyst image processing product for users who need extract quantitative data from video images image analyst lets users configure sophisticated image processing and measurement routines without the necessity knowing programming language designed for such tasks computing number and size cells images projected video cameras attached microscopes enhancing and measuring distances radiographs image analyst provides users with array field proven video analysis techniques that enable them easily assemble sequence instructions enhance feature appearance count objects determine density shape size position movement perform object feature extraction and conduct textural analysis automatically image analyst works with either framegrabber board and any standard video camera disk stored image within minutes without the need for programming the image analyst user can set process identify and analyze any element image measurements and statistics can automatically semi automatically generated from tiff pict files from captured video tape images image analyst recognizes items images based their size shape and position the tool provides direct support for the data translation and scion frame grabbers menu command allows for image capture from vcr video camera other ntsc pal devices there are types files the image itself and the related sequence file that holds the processing measurements and analysis that the user defines automated sequences are set regions interest roi represented movable sizable boxes atop the image inside roi the program can find the distance between two edges the area shape the thickness wall etc image analyst finds the center edge and other positions automatically the application also provides tools that the user can work interactively find the edge object also supports histograms and color look table clut tool automatix inc middlesex turnpike billerica iplab signal analytics corp maple ave vienna fax menu driven image processing software that supports bit color pseudocolor grayscale image display and manipulation map among the mac gis systems map distributed john wiley has integrated image analysis image from stanford try anonymous ftp from sumex aim stanford edu has source for image and ready run code for mac under image windows dos based tools ccd richard berry ccd imaging book for willamon bell contains optional disks with image manipulating software source code included erdas erdas will all the things you want rectification classification transformations canned user defined overlays filters contrast enhancement etc was using thesis then changed the topic bit that work became secondary erdas inc buford highway suite atlanta fax rsvga have been getting speed program called rsvga available from eidetic digital image ltd british columbia its for ibm clones cheap about and does all the stuff erdas does but not fast powerful though have had only limited experience with erdas have used rsvga with landsat bands and good starter program except for the obtuse manual imagine bit package suppose for pcs called imagine image the program does modest amount image processing add subtract multiply divide display and plot cut across the image can also display number images simultaneously the company compuscope santa barbara vista was announced the august edition pasp known available from mike richmond whose email addresses have been richmond bllac berkeley edu richmond bkyast berkeley edu and his mail address michael richmond astronomy department campbell hall berkeley the latest version vista version includes not only the source code and help files but also complete set executable programs and number sample fits images you wish use the source code you will need microsoft version later other compilers may work but will require substantial modifications receive the documentation and nine double density floppies three quad density inch floppies with everything them just send request for vista together with your name and mail address office technology licensing shattuck ave suite berkeley include check traveller checks are fine purchase order for dollars your address inside the continental otherwise made out regents the university california cover duplication and mailing costs software tools set software tools put out canyon state systems and software they are not free but rather cheap about heard will handle most all the formats used frame grabber software mirage image processing software written jim gunn the astrophysics dept princeton will run among other platforms forth based system forth language with many image processing displaying functions built data translation source book the data translation company massachusetts publishes free book containing vendors data analysis hardware and software which compatible with data translation and other frame grabbers surely you can find much more related stuff maxen couple canadians have written program named maxen which does maximum entropy image deconvolution their company named digital signal processing software something like that and the software mentioned article astronomy magazine either jan feb article ccd film jandel scientific java another software package java put out jandel scientific jandel scientific koch road corte madera microbrian runs dos platform and uses bit graphics card vista about released version will support number super vga cards its full blown remote sensed data processing system menu driven character based screen but does not use windowed user interface its hardware protected with dongle mbrian micro barrier reef image anaysis system was developed csiro commonwealth scientific industrial organization and marketed supported mpa australia lusher road croydon victoria tel fax there are educational and commercial prices but prepared set aside for the first educational licence subsequent ones come cheaper they need has installed sites worldwide widely used anu microimage the remote sensing lab here dartmouth currently uses terra mar microimage pcs with some fancy display hardware terra mar resource information services inc landings drive mountain view fax unix based tools iraf image reduction and analysis facility developed the national optical astronomy observatory kitt peak free you can ftp from tucana noao edu and complement with stsdas from stsci edu email iraf noao edu for more details apparently this one the facto standards the astronomical image community they issue newsletter also they seem support very well their users works with vms also last heard and practically has its own shell top the vms unix shells suggested that you get copy saoimage for display under windows very flexible extendable tons literally linear feet documentation for the general user skilled user and programmer alv sun specific image toolkit version posted comp sources sun dec also available via email alv users request bris aips astronomical image processing system contact aipsmail nrao edu also see the usenet newsgroups alt sci astro aips and sci astro fits built nrao national radio astronomy observatory charlottesville sites software distributed track exabyte dat non anonymous internet ftp documentation postscript mostly available via anonymous ftp baboon nrao edu directory pub aips and pub aips text publ installation requires building the system and thus fortran and compiler this package can read and write fits data see sci astro fits and primarily for reduction analysis and image enhancement radio astronomy data from radio telescopes particularly the very large array vla synthesis instrument consists almost programs that everything from copying data sophisticated deconvolution via maximum entropy there based image tool xas and tek compatible xterm based graphics tool built into aips the xas tool modelled after the hardware functionality the international imaging systems model display unit and can image arithmetic etc the code mostly fortran with some system language modules and available for suns ibm dec ultrix convex cray unicos and alliant with support planned for solaris and maybe sgi there currently project aips underway rewrite the algorithmic functionality aips modern setting using and object oriented approach whereas aips proprietary code licensed for free non profit institutions owner nrao and the nsf aips will the public domain some level international effort with contributions from the canada england the netherlands india and australia name few laboimage version out for written and currently runs sun xxx sun xxx and under sunview the expert system for image segmentation written allegro common lisp was used the following domains computer science image analysis medicine biology physics distributed free charge source code available via anonymous ftp ftp ads com pub vision list archive shareware laboimage contact prof thierry pun computer vision group computing science center geneva rue lac geneva switzerland phone fax mail pun cui unige pun cgeuge bitnet figaro was originally made for vms and can obtained from keith shortridge australia aaoepp aao gov and for unix from sam southard caltech sns deimos caltech edu about mbytes sun khoros moved the scientific visualization category below vista the real thing available via anonymous ftp from lowell edu email vista lowell edu for more details total size less than mbytes disimp device independent software for image processing powerful system providing both user friendliness and high functionality interactive times feature description disimp incorporates rich library image processing utilities and spatial data options all functions can easily accessed via the disimp executive this menu modular design and groups image processes their function such logical structure means that complicated processes are simply progression through series modules processes include image rectification classification unsupervised and supervised intensity transformations three dimensional display and principal component analysis disimp also supports the more simple and effective enhancement techniques filtering band subtraction and ratioing host configuration requirements running unix workstations disimp capable processing the more computational intensive techniques interactive processing times disimp available both runtime and programmer environments using the programmers environment utilities can developed for specific applications programs graphics are governed icon based display panel which allows quick enhancments displayed image manipulations look tables colour stretches changes histograms zooming and panning can interactively driven through this control range geographic projections enables disimp integrate data image graphic and textual types images can rectified number coordinate systems providing the true geographic knowledge essential for ground truthing overlays grids text and vector data can added further enhance referenced imagery the system flexible package allowing users various skill levels determine their own working environment including the amount help required disimp comes fully configured with optional extras the purchase price includes all functionality required for professional processing remote sensed data for further information please contact the business manager clough engineering group systems division chapel street south yarra australia telephone fax global imaging software use global imaging software process avhrr data from the dish the final display select chunk five band data from pass automatic navigation calibrate albedo and temp convert that byte register predesigned window all relatively automatically and carefree has classification routines speak but isn that difficult write your own with their programmer module very small operation one designs one codes one sells been around for number years sold weather service and navy runs with supports bit display hips human information processing laboratory image processing system michael landy wrote and sell general purpose package for image processing which has been used for basically all the usual image processing applications robotics medical satellite engineering oil exploration etc called hips and deals with sequences multiband images the same way deals with single images has been growing since first wrote both additions from well huge user contributed library feature description hips set image processing modules which together provide powerful suite tools for those interested research system development and teaching handles sequences images movies precisely the same manner single frames programs and subroutines have been developed for simple image transformations filtering convolution fourier and other transform processing edge detection and line drawing manipulation digital image compression and transmission methods noise generation and image statistics computation over such image transformation programs have been developed result almost any image processing task can performed quickly and conveniently additionally hips allows users easily integrate their own custom routines new users become effective using hips their first day hips features images that are self documenting each image stored the system contains history the transformations that have been applied that image hips includes small set subroutines which primarily deals with standardized image sequence header and large library image transformation tools the form unix filters comes complete with source code line manual pages and line documentation host configuration requirements originally developed new york university hips now represents one the most extensive and flexible vision and image processing environments currently available runs under the unix operating system modular and flexible provides automatic documentation its actions and almost entirely independent special equipment hips now use variety computers including vax and microvax sun apollo masscomp ncr tower iris ibm etc for image display and input drivers are supplied for the grinnell and adage ikonas image processors and the sun sun sun and sun consoles also supply user contributed drivers for number other framestores and windowing packages sun gfx sun console matrox vip iti lexidata macintosh windowing system and iris the hipsaddon package includes interface for the crs simple matter interface hips with other frame stores and can put interested users touch with users who have interfaced hips with the arlunya and datacube max video hips can easily adapted for other image display devices because hips machine independent availability hips has proven itself highly flexible system both interactive research tool and for more production oriented tasks both easy use and quickly adapted and extended new uses hips supplied magnetic tape unix tar format either reel reel sun cartridge and comes with source code libraries library convolu tion masks and line documentation and manual pages michael landy sharpimage software box prince street station new york voice fax msl cns nyu edu mira please don confuse that with the thalmanns animation system from montreal these are altogether different beasts nfotis mira stands for microcomputer image reduction and analysis mira gives workstation level performance dos computers using svga cards color modes mira contains very handsome functional gui which mouse and keystroke operated mira reads writes tiff and fits formats native formats number ccd cameras and uncompressed binary images byte short integer and byte real pixel format dimensions the result image processing operation can short integer real pixels the same that the input image mira does the operation using short floating point arithmetic maintain the precision and accuracy the pixel format over functions are hand coded assembly language for maximum speed the intel hardware the entire graphical interface also written assembly language maximize the speed windowing operations windows for image and image data display and analysis have dedicated cursors which read position and value value real time you move the mouse there are also smooth real time contrast and brightness stretch and panning magnified portion the displayed image all operated the mouse wide selection grayscale pseudocolor and random palettes provided and other palettes can generated supported functions include such niceties the following image image interpolation image constant unary operations abs value polynomial pixel value chs log byteswap clip values upper lower limits short real real short combine images mean median mode sum pixel values with without autoscaling mean median mode image section convolutions filters laplacian sobel edge operator directional gradient line gaussian elliptical and rectangular equal weight filters unsharp masking median filters user defined filter kernel ellipse rectangle line gradient gaussian and user defined filters can rotated any specified angle ccd data reduction flat fielding dark subtraction column over underscan bias removal remove bad pixels and column defects normalize region target mean median modal value create subimage mosaic images get larger image collapse image into image plot section collapsed section image plot histogram region image review change image information header data rename keywords plot keyword values for set images luminance photometry elliptical circular aperture photometry brightness profile isophotal photometry between set upper lower luminances area and luminance inside traced polygon interactive background fitting and removal from part all image fit elliptical aperture shape image isophotes interactive with image contrast brightness diagonal plot pixel values distance between two points compute region stats centroid pan location image center zoom times change cursor rectangle crosshair full image crosshair off and adjust cursor size image select linear log gamma transfer function histogram equalization interactive specified image offset computation and sampling for registration interactive with image zoom both steps times current center plot enlarge framed area plot buffers can cycled through interactive data analysis polynomial fitting point deletion undelete change value point weighting linear and quadratic loess and binomial smoothing revert unit point weights original data buffer substitute results into data buffer for pass back calling function dump data buffer overlays and error bars file printer change user specified coordinate system tricolor image combination and display hardcopy halftone printout pcl compatible printers laserjet deskjet etc documentation over pages custom vinyl binder cost usd copy available from axiom research inc box tucson phone fax international marketing rep saguaro scientific corporation tucson arizona end part the resource listing nick nikolaos fotis national technical univ athens greece home esperidon internet nfotis theseas ntua halandri uucp mcsun ariadne theseas nfotis athens greece fax
comp.graphics	apr computer graphics resource listing weekly part archive name graphics resources list part last modified computer graphics resource listing weekly posting part last change april scene generators geographical data maps data files dems digital elevation models dems digital elevation models well other cartographic data huge available from spectrum xerox com pub map contact lee moore webster research center xerox corp voice arpa internet moore wbst xerox com check also ncgia ucsb edu pub dems nfotis many these files are also available rom selled usgs scale digital line graph dlg data contains datas for all states price about call visit offices menlo park reston virginia usa maps the data user services division the bureau the census also has data rom tso standard format that derived from usgs map data call for more info they have bbs from dobbs march the defense mapping agency cooperation with their counterpart agencies canada the and australia have released the digital chart the world dcw this chart consists over gigabytes reasonable quality vector data distributed four roms includes coastlines rivers roads railrays airports cities towns spot elevations and depths and over place names iso compatible and only available from geological survey box denver federal center denver digital distribution services energy mines and resources canada booth street ottawa canada director general military survey survey elmwood avenue feltham middlesex united kingdom director survey australian army department defense campbell park offices campbell act australia fractal landscape generators public domain many people have written fractal landscape generators for example for the mac some these generators were written pdbourke ccu aukuni paul bourke many the programs are available from the ftp sites and mail archive servers check with archie commercial vista pro for the amiga from virtual reality labs list price about their address vrl ganador court san luis obispo telephone fax scenery animator also for the amiga the same caliber with vista pro check with natural graphics box raklin phone don forget ask about companion programs and data disks tapes vista pro has been ported the pcs cia world map note this database quite out date and not topologically structured you need standard for world cartographic data wait for the digital chart the world this database has been produced from the defense mapping agency oncs and will available together with searching and viewing software number roms later this summer check into hanauma stanford edu and ucsd edu see ftp list above the cia database consists coastlines rivers and political boundaries the form line strokes also hanauma stanford edu array elevation data containing one ieee floating point number for every half degree longitude and latitude program for decoding the database mfil can found the machine arc umn edu there another program which reads compressed cia data bank file and builds phigs hierachical structure uses phigs extension known polyline sets for performance but you can use regular polylines ask joe stewart joes lpi liant com the raw data stanford require the vplot package able view was posted comp sources unix more exact you have compile just the libvplot routines not the whole package ncar data ncar national center for atmospheric research has many types terrain data ranging from elevation datasets various resolutions information about soil types vegetation etc this data not free they charge from more depending the data volume and media exabyte tape cartridge track tape ibm floppy and ftp transfer are all available their data archive mostly research oriented not hobbyist oriented for more information email ilana ncar ucar edu unc data tapes with voxel data there are public domain tapes with data for the comparison and testing various volume rendering algorithms mainly mri and scans these tapes are distributed the softlab unc chapel hill softlab unc edu the data sets volume and are also available via anonymous ftp from omicron unc edu pub softlab chvrtd nasa many agencies such nasa publish roms with many altimetry data from various space missions viking for mars magellan for venus etc especially for nasa would suggest call the following address for more info national space science date center goddard space flight center greenbelt maryland telephone email address request nssdca gsfc nasa gov the data catalog not the data itself available online internet users can telnet nssdca gsfc nasa gov and log nodis password you can also dial baud bits parity one stop the enter number prompt enter and carriage return when the system responds call complete enter few more carriage returns get the username and log nodis password nssdca also anonymous ftp site but comprehensive list what there available present earth sciences data there listing anonymous ftp sites for earth science data including imagery this listing called earth sciences resources internet and you can get via anonymous ftp from csn org the directory cogs under the name internet resources earth sci some sites include aurelie soest hawaii edu pub avhrr images avhrr images ames arc nasa gov pub space cdrom images from magellan and viking missions etc pub space index contains listing files available the whole archive the index about itself there also mail server for the people without internet access send letter archive server ames arc nasa gov ames archive server the subject your letter the body use commands like send space index send space shuttle capitalization important only text files are handled the email server present vab larc nasa gov pub gifs misc landsat landsat photos gif and jpeg format was shut down nfotis anyone has copy this archive others daily values river discharge streamflow and daily weather data available from earthinfo central ave boulder these disks are expensive around but there are quantity discounts check vmd cso uiuc edu the directory carries data regarding surface analysis weather radar and sat view pics gif format updated hourly pioneer unm edu the space and planetary image facility located the university new mexico campus ftp server provides anonymous ftp access roms with data images disk with earthquake data topography gravity geopolitical info available from ngdc national geophysical data center broadway boulder eosat least the now sells landsat mss data older than two years old for per scene and they have been talking about similar deal for landsat data the mss data are bands meter resolution check out anonymous ftp ftp ncsa uiuc edu unix polyview alpha shape for tool that creates convex hulls alpha shapes generalization the convex hull from point sets the grips gov raster image processing software rom available from rom inc for code for viewing adrg arc digitised raster graphics files available the grips rom the army engineer topographic labs juan perez code also available via ftp adrg zip archive spectrum xerox com nrcc range data rioux cournoyer the nrcc three dimensional image data files tech report cnrc national research council canada ottawa canada from what understand these data are from laser range finder and you can copy for research purposes scanners digitized data cyberware labs monterey manufactures color laser digitizer which can used model parts complete human body they run service bureau also they can digitize models for you address cyberware labs inc harris suite monterey phone fax polhemus makes input device actually couple models that senses position and orientation based electromagnetic field interference this equipment also incorporated the vpl dataglove this hardware also called isotrack from keiser aerospace ascension technology makes similar input device there company applied sciences that makes input device position only based speed sound triangulation company that specializes digitizing viewpoint you can ask for viewpoint free page catalog full ready ship datasets from categories such cars anatomy aircraft sports boats trains animals and others though these objects are quite expensive the cataloge nevertheless interest for has pictures all the available objects wireframe polygon mesh contact viewpoint west center orem utah fax dataset some addresses for companies that make digitizers ascension technology bird flock birds big bird trackers box burlington phone fax polhemus incorporated digitizer trackers box hercules colchester tel logitech inc red baron ultrasonic mouse kaiser freemont tel shooting star technology mechanical headtracker holdom ave burnaby canada tel fax spaceball technologies inc spaceball stationary input device suffolk street lowell tel fax tel mountain view transfinite systems gold brick powerglove for macintosh box mit branch post office cambridge tel email applelink apple com vpl research inc eyephone head mounted display dataglove glove hand input device vpl research inc tower lane floor foster city tel fax simgraphics engineering flying mouse input device huntington suite south pasadena background imagery textures datafiles first check the ftp places that are mentioned the faq the ftp list above bit scanning get good bit scanner like epson suggested scsi port for speed eric haines had suggestion news volume scan textures for wallpapers and floor coverings etc from doll house supplies you have rather cheap way scan patterns that don have scaling troubles associated with real materials and scanning area books with textures find some houses books magazines that carry photographic material educorp sells roms with various imagery also wide variety stock art available stock art from big name stock art houses such comstock uniphoto and metro image base available italy there company called belvedere that makes such books for the purpose clipping their pages for inclusion your graphics work their address edition belvedere ltd rome italy piazzale flaminio tel fax texture libraries mannikin sceptre graphics announced textiles set bit textures initial shipments bit iff for amigas soon bit tiff format algorithmically built for tiled surfaces srp volume each volume images disks demo disks for are available contact mannikin sceptre graphics indiana ave winter park phone fax essence library sixty five new algoritmic textures for imagine impulse inc these textures are fully compatible with the floating point versions imagine imagine and even turbo silver written steve worley for more info contact essence info apex software publishing camino real suite menlo park usa what about texture city introduction rendering algorithms ray tracing assume you have general understanding computer graphics then read some the books that the faq contains for ray tracing would suggest introduction ray tracing andrew glassner academic press isbn note that have not read the book but feel that you can wrong using his book errata list was posted comp graphics eric haines erich eye com there more concise reference also roman kuchkuda unc chapel hill introduction ray tracing theoretical foundations for computer graphics and cad earnshaw nato vol printed springer verlag contains code for small but fundamentally complete ray tracer buffer depth buffer good reference procedural elements for computer graphics david rogers mcgraw hill new york pages and others more info needed nfotis where can find the geometric data for the teapot displays display column ieee jan has the whole story about origin the martin newell teapot the article also has the bezier patch model and pascal program display the wireframe model the teapot ieee sep jim blinn column jim blinn corner describes another way model the teapot bezier curves with rotations for example are used the off and spd packages have these objects you advised get them avoid typing the data yourself the off data triangles specific resolution around triangles meshing per patch the spd package provides the spline patch descriptions and performs tessellation any specified resolution space shuttle tolis lerios tolis nova stanford edu has built list space shuttle datafiles here summary from his sci space list model modified version the newsgroup model model vertices useful referred the polygon descriptions polygons vertex vertex vertex vertex payload doors non existent units unknown simon marshall marshall sequent hull has copy said there proprietary information associated with model the newsgroup model off format you can find gondwana ecr file pub off objects shuttle geo hanauma stanford edu pub graphics comp graphics objects shuttle data model the triangles model this model stored several files each defining portions the model greg henderson henders infonode ingr com has copy did not mention any restriction the model distribution model the nasa model the file starts off with header line containing three real numbers defining the offsets used lockheed their simulations offset offset offset from then the file consists sequence polygon descriptions vertices polygons vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex payload doors closed units inches jon berndt jon jsc nasa gov seems responsible for the model proprietary info unknown model the old shuttle model the file consists sequence polygon descriptions vertices polygons vertex vertex payload doors open units meters have been using this model star labs stanford university for some years now contact tolis nova stanford edu supervisor scott williams scott star stanford edu you want copy image annotation software touchup runs sunview and pretty good reads rasterfiles but even your image isn normally stored rasterfile format you could use screendump make rasterfile idraw part stanford interviews distribution can handle some image formats addition being macdraw like tool not sure exactly what they are you can ftp the idraw binary from interviews stanford edu tgif another macdraw like tool that can handle bitmap xbm and pixmap xpm formats the image you have formats other than xbm xpm you can get the pbmplus toolkit convert things like gif even some macintosh formats xpm tgif sources are available the pub directory ucla edu version tgif patchlevel plus patch and patch use the editimage facility khoros see below this just one utility the overall system you can essentially all your image processing and macdraw type graphics using this package you might able get with pbmplus pbmtext gives you text output bitmaps which can overlaid top your image ice requires sun hardware running openwindows postscript based graphical editor and available for anonymous ftp from internet host soest hawaii edu requires sun and two other locally developed packages the lxt library xlib based toolkit and small class library all files pub ice tar pub lxt tar and pub ldgoc tar are available compressed tar format pub ice tar contains readme that gives installation instructions well extensive man page ice statically linked compressed executable pub ice sun for sparc systems also available for ftp all software the property columbia university and may not redistributed without permission ice means image composition environment and imaging tool that allows raster images combined with wide variety postscript annotations wysiwyg fashion via imaging routines and news postscript rasterizing use imagemagick annotate image from your server pick the position your text with the cursor and choose your font and pen color from pull down menu imagemagick can read and write many the more popular image formats imagemagick available export lcs mit edu contrib imagemagick tar your nearest archive scientific visualization stuff data slice xds bundled with the distribution from mit the contrib directory available ftp ncsa uiuc edu either source binaries for various platforms national center for supercomputing applications ncsa tool suite platforms unix workstations dec ibm sgi sun apple macintosh cray supercomputers availability now available source code the public domain ftp from ftp ncsa uiuc edu contact national center for supercomputing applications computing applications building springfield ave champaign cost free zero dollars the suite includes tools for image and scene analysis and visualization the code actively maintained and updated spyglass they sell commercial versions the ncsa tools examples are spyglass dicer volumetric data analysis package platform mac spyglass transform data analysis package platforms mac sgi sun dec ibm contact spyglass inc box champaign khoros patch available via anonymous ftp pprg eece unm edu pub khoros see what available huge but good needs unix and freely copied not complete with sources and docs very extensive and its heart visual programming khoros components include visual programming language code generators for extending the visual language and adding new application packages the system interactive user interface editor interactive image display package extensive library image and signal processing routines and plotting packages see comp soft sys khoros usenet and the relative faq for more info contact the khoros group room eece dept university new mexico albuquerque email khoros request chama eece unm edu macphase analysis visualization application for the macintosh operates and data arrays import export several different file formats several different plotting options such gray scale color raster wire frame surface contour vector line and combinations ffts filtering and other math functions color look editor array calculator etc shareware available via anonymous ftp from sumex aim stanford edu the info mac app directory for other information contact doug norton mail compuserve com iris explorer application creation system developed silicon graphics that provides visualisation and analysis functionality for computational scientists engineers and other scientists the explorer gui allows users build custom applications without having write any minimal amount traditonal code also existing code can easily integrated into the explorer environment explorer currently available now sgi and cray machines but will become available other platforms time bundled with every new sgi machine far know see comp graphics explorer comp sys sgi for discussion the package there are also two ftp servers for related stuff modules etc ftp epcc swedishchef lerc nasa gov mirror the site ape back the old good days you could get ape for nearly free now has gone commercial and the following vendor supplies taravisual corporation harrison avenue columbus ohio tel and fax cost plus tax runtime version with site license for single user time limit the number machines cluster includes support maintenance and upgrades source code more additional user licenses the name the package has become ape iii khoros very similar ape philosophy are avs and explorer avs see also comp graphics avs platforms convex cray dec evans sutherland ibm kubota set technologies sgi stardent sun wavetracer availability avs available all the above for all unix workstations contact advanced visual systems inc fifth ave waltham telephone fax avs avs com email advanced visual systems inc for cray ibm sgi stardent sun convex for convex advanced visual systems inc cray for cray dec for dec evans sutherland for evans sutherland advanced visual systems inc ibm for ibm kubota pacific inc for kubota set technologies for set technologies wavetracer for wavetracer ftp site for modules data sets other info avs ncsc org wit nutshell package the same genre avs explorer etc seems more image processing system than generic scivi system imho major elements are visual programming language which automatically exploits the inherent parallelism code generator which converts the graph standalone program iconified libraries present rich set point filter transform morphological segmentation and measurement operations flow library allows graphs employ broadcast merge synchronization conditional and sequencing control strategies wit delivers object oriented distributed visual programming environment which allows users rapidly design solutions their imaging problems users can consolidate both software and hardware developments within complete cad like workspace adding their own operators functions objects data structures and servers specialized hardware wit runs sun sgi and supports datacube hardware allowing you run your graphs real time for free wit demo disk call fax mail poon ubc stating your complete name address voice fax mail info and desired platform pricing wit for sparc one free upgrades days technical support academic institutions discounts available contact logical vision ltd suite gilmore way burnaby canada tel fax terry arden poon ubc vis system for visually exploring the output gridded data sets such those made weather models platforms sgi iris with vgx gtx graphics sgi crimson indigo elan graphics suggested irix ibm with graphics aix version later stardent and with truecolor display any case more ram are suggested you can get freely thanks nasa support via anonymous ftp ftp iris ssec wisc edu ftp then ftp pub vis ftp ascii ftp get readme ftp bye note you can find the package also wuarchive wustl edu the graphics graphics packages directory read section the readme file for full instructions how get and install vis contact bill hibbard whibbard vms macc wisc edu brian paul bpaul vms macc wisc edu dataexplorer ibm platforms ibm risc system ibm power visualization server simd mesh mhz working announced sgi sun contact your local ibm rep for trial package ask your rep contact david kilgore data explorer product marketing yktvmh kilcore wavefront data visualizer personal visualizer advanced visualizer platforms sgi sun ibm dec availability available all the above platforms from wavefront technologies educational programs and site licenses are available contacts mike wilson mike wti com wavefront technologies inc east montecito street santa barbara fax wavefront europe guldenspoorstraat gent belgium fax wavefront technologies japan shinjuku sumitomo bldg nishi shinjuku shunjuku tokyo japan fax plot and fast from nasa ames these packages are distributed from cosmic least for fast ask pat elson pelson nas nasa gov for distribution information general these codes are for citizens only xgraph the contrib tape its specialty display data sets ncar national center for atmospheric research one the original graphics packages runs sun sgi vax cray decstations and more contact graphics information ncar scientific computing division box boulder scdinfo ncar ucar edu cost edu unlimited users gov user users users com users multiply gov idl environment for scientific computing and visualization based array oriented language idl includes and graphics matrix manupulation signal and image processing basic statistics gridding mapping and widget based system for building gui for idl applications open look motif windows environments dec vms and ultrix ibm sgi sun microsoft windows mac version progress cost educational and quantity discounts available see also comp lang idl pvwave the idl pvwave bundle contact research systems inc street suite boulder phone fax mail info rsinc com demo available via ftp call mail for details idl sips lot people are using idl with package called sips this was developed the university colorado boulder some people working for alex goetz you might try contacting them you already have idl would willing buy few thousand dollars american expect for idl and the other should free those are the general purpose packages heard besides what terramar has sips was written for aviris imagery not sure how general purpose you would have contact goetz one his people and ask have another piece software pcw that does and walsh transformations with pseudocoloring and clustering and limited image modification you can compute image using selected components used megabyte aviris images without problems but for the best speed you need external dsp card will work without but large images take quite while times long process that freebie you want favorite idl interactive data language from research systems inc idl opinion much better and infinitely easier its programming language very strong and easy very pascal like handles the number crunching very well also personally like doing the number crunching with idl the vax mathematica igor even excel the mac not too hairy then bringing over nih image for the imaging part have yet encounter any situation which that combination couldn handle and the speed and ease use compared iraf was incredible the way mostly astronomical image processing which been doing this means image enhancement cleaning bad lines pixels and some other traditional image processing routines then for example taking graph intensity versus position along line choose with the mouse then doing curve fit that line which might like kaleidagraph for idl call research systems for wave call precision visuals and for sips call university colorado boulder from what can understand you can get packaged programs from research systems though nfotis visual contact robert haimes mit fieldview interactive program designed assist engineer investigating fluid dynamics data sets platforms sgi ibm sun terminals availability currently available all the above platforms educational programs and volume discounts are available contact intelligent light box fair lawn steve kramer kramer ilight com scian scian primarily intended visualizations data interactive environment with the ability generate animations using frame accurate video recording devices user manual line help and technical notes will help you use the program cost free source code provided via ftp platforms sgi machines and ibm with the card buffer where find ftp scri fsu edu pub scian mirror monu monash edu pub scian scry from the readme scry distributed image handling system that pro vides image transport and compression local and wide area networks image viewing workstations recording video equipment and storage disk the system can distri buted among workstations between supercomputers and works tations and between supercomputers workstations and video animation controllers the system most commonly used produce video based movie displays images resulting from visualization time dependent data complex data sets and image processing operations both the clients and servers run variety systems that provide unix like run time environments and bsd sockets the source available for anonymous ftp csam lbl gov pub scry tar contact bill johnston wejohnston lbl gov ucbvax csam lbl gov johnston david robertson dwrobertson lbl gov ucbvax csam lbl gov davidr imaging technologies group lawrence berkeley laboratory cyclotron road berkeley svlib fvs svlib windows widget set based the osf open software foundation motif widget set svlib widgets are macro widgets comprising lower level motif widgets such buttons scrollbars menus and drawing areas designed address the reusability visualization routines and each widget the library encapsulation specific visualization technique such colormap manipulation image display and contour plotting targetted run unix workstations supporting osf motif currently only color monitors are supported since svlib collection widgets developed the same spirit the osf motif user interface widget set integrates seamlessly with the motif widgets programmers using svlib widgets see the same interface and design other motif widgets fvs visualization software for computational fluid dynamics cfd simulations fvs designed accept data generated from these simulations and apply various visualization techniques present these data graphically fvs accepts three dimensional multi block data recorded ncsa hdf format iti gov pub svlib scientific visualization fvs these directories contain demo binaries for sun sgi cost for academic and for non academic institutions for each the above items you getting the source for the licence contact miss quek lee hian member technical staff information technology institute national computer board ncb building sicence park drive singapore republic singapore tel fax email leehian iti gov gvlware distribution bob interactive volume renderer for the sgi raz disk based movie player for the sgi icol motif color editor the army high performance computing research center ahpcrc has been developing set tools work with large time dependent and data sets the graphics and visualization lab gvl are using these tools along side standard packages such sgi explorer and the utah raster toolkit render volumes and create digital movies couple the more general purpose programs have been bundled into package called gvlware gvlware currently consisting bob raz and icol now available via ftp the most interesting program probably bob interactive volume renderer for the sgi raz streams raster images from disk sgi screen enabling movies larger than memory played icol color map editor that works with bob and raz source and pre built binaries for irix are included acquire gvlware anonymous ftp machine ftp arc umn edu file pub gvl tar use gvlware mkdir gvl gvl zcat gvl tar tar xvf more readme some bob features motif interface sgi rendering renders cubed data set seconds vgx alpha compositing and maximum value rendering perspective only maximum value rendering personal iris data must brick bytes regularly spaced grid animation subvolumes subsampling stereo some raz features motif interface sgi rendering loads files raw disk partition then streams screen requires empty disk partition set aside script interface available for movie sequences can stream from memory like ncsa ximage some icol features motif interface easy create interpolated color maps between key points rgb hsv and yuv color spaces multiple file formats communicates changes automatically bob and raz has been tested sgi sun dec and cray systems btw bob brick bytes icol interpolated color raz just name please send any comments gvlware ahpcrc umn edu this software collection supported the army research office contract number daalo with the university minnesota army high performance computing research center iap imaging applications platform commercial package for medical and scientific visualization does volume rendering binary surface rendering multiplanar reformating image manipulation cine sequencing intermixes geometry and text with images and provides measurement and coordinate transform abilities can provide hardcopy most medical film printers image database functionality and interconnection most medical mri etc scanners client server based and provides object oriented interface runs most high performance workstations and takes full advantage parallelism where available robust efficient and will submitted for fda approval for use medical applications cost for oem developer for educational developer and run times starting and going down based quantity the developer packages include two days training for two people toronto available from isg technologies airport road mississauga ontario canada mail rod gilchrist rod isgtec com molecular visualization stuff based list from cristy dupont com cristy which asked for systems for displaying molecular dynamics for short flex public domain package written michael pique the scripps research institute jolla flex stored compressed tar archive about perutz scripps edu pub flex displays molecular models and trajectories macmolecule for macintosh searched with archie and the most promising place sumex aim stanford edu info mac app and info mac art for demo display runs sgi machines call terry lybrand lybrand milton washington edu xtalview crystallography package that does visualize molecules and much more uses the xview toolkit call duncan mcree dem scripps edu landman hal physics wayne edu writing own visualization code right now look output specific format easy alter for the subroutine program has hooks into gks your friend has access phigs for pex and fortran bindings would happy share evolving code free charge right now can display supercells atoms easy change and time steps drawing nearest neighbor bonds between defining radii works acceptably fast mhz icsg caesar montana edu did project molecular visualization for master thesis using unix motif which generates simple point and space filling model kgngraf kgngraf part motecc look malena crs pub motecc motecc info txt information about motecc plain ascii format motecc info troff information about motecc troff format motecc form troff motecc order form troff format motecc license troff motecc license agreement troff format motecc info information about motecc postscript format motecc form motecc order form postscript format motecc license motecc license agreement postscript format ditolla itnsg cineca working molecular dynamic too friend mine and have developed program display run dynamically silicon graphics are working improve but doesn work under are using the graphi lib the silicon because they are much faster then when end post the news info about where get with ftp will free software xball written david nedde call daven maxine wpi edu xmol window system program that uses osf motif for the display and analysis molecular model data data from several common file formats can read and written current formats include alchemy chemlab gaussian molsim mopac pdb and msci xyz format which has been designed for simplicity translating and from other formats xmol also allows for conversion between several these formats xmol available ftp msc edu read pub xmol readme for further details insight from biosym technologies inc scarecrow the program has been published molecular graphics the program can analyze and display charmm discover yasp and mumod trajectories the program package contains also software for the generation probe surfaces proton affinity surfaces and molecular orbitals from extended huckel program works silicon graphics machines contact leif laaksonen leif laaksonen csc laaksone csc multi niehs nih gov pub multi multi process molecular modeling suite mindtool runs under sunview and requires fortran compiler and sun cgi libraries mindtool tool provided for the interactive graphic manipulation molecules and atoms currently atoms may input available via anonymous ftp rani chem yale edu directory pub mindtool check with archie for other sites that too far would also suggest looking least sgi applications directory contains many more packages nfotis gis geographical information systems software grass geographic resource analysis support system the army construction engineering research lab cerl popular geographic and remote sensing image processing package many may think grass geographic information system rather than image processing package although reported have significant image processing capabilities feature descriptions use grass because public domain and can obtained through the internet for free grass runs unix and written the source code can obtained through anonymous ftp from the office grass integration you then compile the source code for your machine using scripts provided with grass would recommend grass for someone who already has workstation and limited budget grass not very user friendly compared macintosh software first review overview documentation indicates that looks useful and has some pixel resampling functions not other packages plus good general purpose image enhancement routines fft kelly maurice vexcel corp boulder primary user grass this gentleman has used the grass software and developed multi spectral bands volumetric rendering full color suns and stardents was really effective interface vexcel corp currently has contract map part venus and convert the magellan radar data into contour maps you can call them email care greg vexcel com host configuration requirements you are willing run you could install grass macintosh which has significant image analysis and import capabilities for satellite data grass public domain and can run high end under unix raster based has some image processing capability and can display vector data but analysis must done the raster environment have used grass sun workstation and found easy use best course for data that are well represented raster grid cell form availability cerl office grass integration ogi maintains ftp server moon cecer army mil mail regarding this site should addressed grass ftp admin moon cecer army mil this location will the new canonical source for grass software well bug fixes contributed sources documentation and other files this ftp server also supports dynamic compression and uncompression and tar archiving files feature attraction the server john parks grass tutorial because the manual still beta test stage john requests that people only acquire they are willing review and mail him comments corrections the ogi not currently maintaining this document all correspondence about should directed grassx tang uark edu support listserv mailing lists grassu list amber cecer army mil for grass users application level questions support concerns miscellaneous questions etc send subscribe commands grassu request amber cecer army mil grassp list amber cecer army mil for grass programmers system level questions and tips tricks and techniques design and implementation grass applications send subscribe commands grassp request amber cecer army mil both lists are maintained the office grass integration subset the army corps engineers construction engineering research lab champaign the ogi providing the lists service the community while ogi and cerl employees will participate the lists can make claim content veracity messages that pass through the list you have questions problems comments send mail lists owner amber cecer army mil and human will respond microstation imager intergraph based huntsville alabama sells wide range gis software hardware microstation base graphics package that imager sits top imager basically image processing package with heavy gis remote sensing flavor feature description basic geometry manipulations flip mirror rotate generalized affine rectification affine and order models well projective model warp image vector map another image rgb ihs and ihs rgb conversion principal component analysis classification means and isodata fourier xforms forward filtering and reverse filters high pass low pass edge enhancing median generic complex histogram contrast control layer controller manages images time user can extract single bands from band image create color images combining various individual bands etc the package designed for remote sensing application can handle very large images and there all kinds other software available for gis applications host configuration requirements runs intergraph workstations unix machine similar sun though there were rumors there are always rumors that the software would ported and possibly sun environment pci company called pci inc out richmond hill ontario canada makes array software utilities for processing manipulation and use remote sensing data eight ten different industry standard formats lgsowg bsq landsat and couple others whose titles forget the software available versions for dos unix workstations among them sun and ibm and vms and quite possibly other platforms now use the vms version the pci software consists several classes groups packages utilities grouped function but all operating common pci database disk file the tape package set utility programs which read from the various remote sensing industry tape formats into write those formats out from the pci database file this the only package use know much about other packages can display data from the pci database one another several pci supported third party color displays output numeric bitmap representation image data attached printer epson type dot matrix graphics printer you might more spe cifically interested the mathematical operations package histo gram and fourier analysis equalization user specified operations multiply channel add channel and store channel and god only knows what all else there lot don have and don use these can say much about them you only buy the packages your particular application interest calls for each utility controlled from one eight parameters read from common parameter file which must vms anyway your default directory some utilities will share parameters and use the same parameter for different purpose can get bit confusing setting series operations the standard pci environment contains scripting language very similar ibm basic but which allows you automate the process setting parameters for common complicated lengthy difficult series utility executions vms can also invoke utilities independently from dcl command procedure there also optional programming library which allows you write compiled language programs which can interface with read from write the pci data structures database file parameter file the pci software designed specifically for remote sensing images but requires such level operator expertise that once you reach the level where you can handle images you can figure out ways handle few other things well for instance the tape package offers utility for reading headerless multi band what adobe photoshop the macintosh calls raw data from tape number different interleave orders this turns out ideal for manipulating the graphic arts industry format would probably haven tried handle targa and above all however you have know what you doing you can screw the nth degree and have start over worth noting that the pci database file designed contain not only raster image data but vectors for overlaying map information entered via digitizing table land use and all manner other information observe that remote sensing image tape often contains all manner information about the spectral bands latitude longitude time date etc the original satellite pass all this can into the pci database believe that workstations the built display used vax systems other than workstations pci supports only couple specific third party display systems the name gould deanza seems come mind one personal workarounds was display program which would display directly from pci database file peritek vct bus bit directcolor display subsystem pci software could overkill your case seems designed for the very high end applications users those for whom mac largely doesn suffice although you know the gap getting smaller all the time probably coincidence that pci located canada country which does lot its land resource management via remote sensing believe the canadian government uses pci software for some its work these areas spam spectral analysis manager back jpl developed something called spam spectral analysis manager which got fair amount use the time that was designed for airborne imaging spectrometer imagery byte data pixels across lines bands modified version has since been developed for aviris airborne visual and infrared imaging spectrometer which uses much larger images spam does none these things rectification classification and ihs transformations filtering contrast enhancement overlays actually does limited filtering and contrast enhancement stretching spam aimed spectral identification and clustering the original spam uses sunview display the aviris version may require vicar executive based tae and may also require frame buffer can refer you people you interested pcw requires for display map among the mac gis systems map distributed john wiley clrview clrview dimensional visualization program designed exploit the real time capabilities silicon graphics iris computers this program designed provide core set tools aid the visualization information from cad and gis sources supports the integration many common but disperate data sources such dxf tin dem lattices and arc info coverages among others clrview can obtained from explorer dgp utoronto the directory pub sgi clrview contact rodney hoinkes head design applications centre for landscape research university toronto tel email rodney dgp utoronto end resource listing nick nikolaos fotis national technical univ athens greece home esperidon internet nfotis theseas ntua halandri uucp mcsun ariadne theseas nfotis athens greece fax
comp.graphics	wanted references parallel algorithms element analysis radiosity distributed processing looking for references parallel algorithms octrees adaptive subdivision adaptive meshing finite element meshing analysis radiosity any help will greatly appreciated mail replies dave small dts cis ufl edu
comp.graphics	need help buffering lines areas together asking for help sticky problem involving unreasonably low apparent precision buffering that encountered different pex implementations can find any discussion this problem any resources can lay hands the comp windows pex faq gaskins pexlib programming manual vendors documentation posting this article itself comp graphics and virtually the same article with test program demonstrating the problem comp windows pex the problem hard describe without pictures hence this article longish you can run pexlib programs and are interested encourage you build and run the test program comp windows pex see the effect yourself and play with approach dealing with depends the utility code from the above gaskins book instructions for fetching via anonymous ftp are given the problem solved eliminate minimize stitching artifacts resulting from the use buffering with polylines that are coplanar with filled areas the interpolated values along line will differ slightly due roundoff error from the interpolated values across area even when the endpoints the line are coincident with vertices the area because this tossup whether the buffer will allow the line pixels the area pixels displayed visually the result tends dashed line effect even though the line supposed solid using the pexlib api approach solution use two slightly different pex view mapping transforms two view table entries one for the areas and one for the lines the pex structures immediate mode output must organized that one view table index always effect for areas and the other always effect for lines the result slight shift npc coordinates for the lines attempt bias the tossup situations favor the lines this shift effected moving the front and back clipping planes used the pexlib view table entry for lines just hair backwards smaller vrc coordinates compared their positions the view table entry used for areas this means that when point transformed npc its value will slightly bigger comes from line than comes from area thus accomplishing the desired bias would expect the roundoff errors which cause the problem amount few units most out the entire dynamic range the buffer typically from not bit buffers therefore seems that tiny fraction the range vrc between the front and back clip planes ought suffice reliably fix the stitching but fact experience shows that the shift has much the range empirically worst when the npc component the slope the surface high when appears more less edge the viewer only bits the buffer have any dependable meaning this amount great that one problem replaced another sometimes the polylines show through areas which they are supposed lie behind observed the problem both hewlett packard and digital workstation pex servers approximately the same degree the test program demonstrates the problem mit pexlib implementation this version known compile and run system with pex open questions why does this happen configuring the pex view table wrongly there systematic difference interpolation for lines opposed areas pixel centers versus corners which could corrected for are pex implementors wantonly discarding precision their interpolators something else what about can fix use the view table allow better precision buffered hlhsr there another approach can take remove the stitching artifacts just out luck any help would immensely appreciated dave gorgen internet gorgen ann arbor applicon slb com applicon inc gorgen aaaca sinet slb com ann arbor michigan usa uucp uunet sharkey applga gorgen
comp.graphics	raytriacing and animation now have couple raytracing questions just you know using povray both dos and unix and generating targa files varying size can view these wonderful pictures screen what the best way get them paper would possible take kinko and have them make actual picture paper from was thinking about making small animation bit with different raytraced frames this bad idea any tricks how would get sequence targa files made into animation that could put videotape there cheap way
comp.graphics	need gif iff file format could somebody please email some info either what gif iff file formats are where can get such info thanx rtaraz wpi wpi edu
comp.graphics	archiving gif what the best way archive gif zip them and they only shrink have most compression programs except stacker which heard was good for gif thanx brando please mail don get down this far the news usually
comp.graphics	povray tga rle article ltqp innpa pageboy utexas edu jhpark utexas edu jihun park writes hello have some problem converting tga file generated povray rle file when convert not get any warning message but use xloadimage getx something wrong edited know that need install ppmtorle and tgatoppm but not spend time install them even not want generate rgb from povray and then convert them rle possible rgb rle works but will mess directory with many files and needs more steps finally convert rle file say cat rawtorle rleflip does any body out there have same experience problems well for starters why use rle files you might have specific program that needs them but tend convert straight jpeg format thus meg bit targa file becomes less bit jpeg the latest versions and xloadimage both handle jpeg files and the best way convert jpeg with the djpeg suit even quality you can see the difference the jpeg way smaller than anything else even bit gif later ish craig didn nobody saw you can prove anything craig humphrey stargate actrix gen ccc ccc chumphre comp vuw
comp.graphics	kubota kenai denali specs okay got enough replies about the kubota kenai denali systems that will post summary their capabilities haven actually used one seen one take the specs with grain salt like see independent review one against say sgi indigo extreme something basically the kenai workstations are dec alpha axp based workstations that run osf dec and will likely run windows the future they are binary compatible with digital osf alpha axp implementation denali their graphics subsystem which upgradable the field simply adding transformation engines the two main kenai machines are the imaging and graphics workstation and the imaging and graphics workstation cpu dec alpha axp mhz dec alpha axp mhz chip cache onboard cache word size bit bit memory initial memory future specmark specint specfp graphics transform modules frame buffer modules frame buffer bit bit double buffered double buffered buffer bit bit alpha stencil bit bit stereo support yes yes other both machines will double buffer stereo output per window both have auxiliary video output that ntsc and pal storage internal fixed internal removable max capacity both have turbochannel sec scsi ethernet and fddi application programming interfaces both have libraries for xlib motif mit pexlib dec pexlib dec phigs and okay now the real stuff the kenai stations work with graphics architecture known denali the denali comes three models the and they use decchip superscalar risc processor mhz their capabilities are follows vectors vectors vectors vectors triangles triangles pixel flat shaded connected pixel gouraud shaded connected pixel pixel wide anti aliased connected pixel gouraud shaded buffered strip pixel texture mapped persp point sampled image processing cine loop bit cine loop bit cine loop bit contrast stretching bilinear zoom trilinear interp mvoxels mvoxels lookup table bit trilinear interpolation bit voxels configurations frame buffer modules transform engine mod you can see these are pretty powerful workstations and the best part the pricing would recommend that you call kubota for more information their number sure they send you information you may want some prices low end kenai series tem and fbm dollars kenai series tem and fbm dollars high end kenai series tem and fbm dollars kenai series tem and fbm dollars someone could post relative comparision with indigo extreme something would appreciate hope this helps someone out there brian not affiliated with kubota any way hell thought they made tractors something
comp.graphics	autocad graphics converter could anybody tell exists any program convert autocad graphics another format gif tiff bmp pcx and where get thanks advance cuesta cuesta tidsa madrid spain
comp.graphics	looking for code brake image into sub bands all working project which need brake image into sub bands and then work with them since have never done anything like this don even understand the concept sub bands was wondering there some software out there that would allow this any hints thanks scott violet xepo csd csd uwm edu
comp.graphics	virtual reality for the cheap peter gort trl peter campbell writes ridout bink plk mil brian ridout writes article apr mfltd sts mfltd steve sherwood writes has anyone got multiverse work extn sts mfltd uunet mfocus sts tried compiling several sparcstations with gcc after fixing few bugs missing constant definitions plus couple other things got compile link but after starting client server just get black window sometimes the client core dumps sometimes the server sometimes get broken pipe sometimes just sits there doing nothing although occassionally get the cursor become cross hair dog fight but that sent word the author plus what did fix last week but reply yet peter campbell campbell trl discovered bug the libraries parser parser loadcolour function where was generating segmentation fault appears the colourlist geting corrupted somehow had return random colours instead and everything worked great except for few colour problems know its the only thing wrong the colour table somehow gets couple nulls placed when the name the colours are compared crashes haven found the problem yet maybe someone else can adrian turner university college northern victoria turner ironbark ucnv edu
comp.graphics	looking for graig toontown noticed you post comp graphics and know person with your name was wondering you used live paxton mass have friend that would like say sorry for the inconvience this isn who think
comp.graphics	gif targa article apr fuw edu muchor fuw edu krzysztof muchorowski writes hello subject says all need gif targa converter that dta could make fli them krzysztof dta will make fli from gifs well targas you don need converter also get the latest version dta from wuarchive wustl edu pub msdos uploads
comp.graphics	acm siggraph registration problem zyda nps navy mil michael zyda notes word warning for those you registering for siggraph just received registration form back the mail with the envelope marked return sender moved left address closed box the address used register for siggraph the one printed the registration form acm siggraph box chicago printed the envelope best printing honest but evidently siggraph has skipped town moved ended faxing registration hope that number real michael zyda had the same problem and called the people who handle the box the problem happened some time ago and was caught almost instantly all registrations going that address are now fixed see what trouble you get into when you don procrastinate mike and siggraph has not skipped town preparing the best siggraph conference yet steve cunningham
comp.graphics	hpgl viewer and utilities would like know there any software not who could produce output hpgl file and same kind software who could produce hardcopy postscript and lasetjet thank you gaetan lord voice analyste fax ecole polytechnique montreal box station montreal quebec canada there future time travel
comp.graphics	why does illustrator autotrace poorly had pretty good success autotracing line art with adobe streamline the key controlling excessive points etc take some time and some test conversions using various tolerance settings jim powlesland internet powlesla acs ucalgary academic computing services voice university calgary message calgary alberta canada fax
comp.graphics	cross sobel roberts filters article apr waikato pdenize waikato writes saw imaging program some time ago amiga that had cross sobel and roberts filters for edge detection can anybody direct these algorithms never heard cross filters but roberts prewitt and sobel filters are standard spatial masks for edge detection highpass filtering does good job detecting edges too good reference for all sorts general digital image processing the book digital image processing rafael gonzalez and richard woods addison wesley publishing isbn used this source the above filters and many other things grad project not too dificult the worst part loading the images from tiff gif iff ilbm whatever wayne rigby rigby unr edu
comp.graphics	source code help packages please greetings this general call for information regarding image processing looking for any material related the field and also trying get hands some easy use packages related the field particular source code for general use packages already have several texts the subject but would appreciate more input from people more knowledgable the field than myself not mathematically literate don have degree mathematics any material that suggested would prefer that was not mathematically intensive the best book have found the subject the moment practical digital image processing rhys lewis isbn published ellis horwood likewise trying get fair sample programs that demonstrate image processing techniques far have and khoros for unix dcview for the ibm and various related smatterings code help describe topics like contrasting dithering image enhancement via convolution etc anyone could kindly supply with some public domain software pertinent this area better still they could tell where most likely find the aarnet internet can would prefer source code turbo pascal that includes some image processing code algorithms that can readily alter manipulate for the purposes demonstration would most helpful all the above information will contribute post graduate studies and will liberally used paper and seminar the subject thanks advance vance ashlin diploma advanced computing thinking dangerous subversive mindnumbing and leads you astray ashlin ironbark ucnv edu redgum ucnv edu
comp.graphics	quicktime performance was rumours about article apr waikato ldo waikato lawrence oliveiro waikato university writes path dime ymir umass edu nic umass edu noc near net howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov decwrl waikato ldo from ldo waikato lawrence oliveiro waikato university newsgroups comp multimedia comp graphics date apr gmt references mar aragorn unibe apr rchland ibm com organization university waikato hamilton new zealand lines xref dime comp multimedia comp graphics with all the discussion about observed playback speeds with quicktime the effects scaling and thought some more tests first all felt that original speed test was perhaps less than realistic the movie had been using only had frames was version the very first movie created with the compact video compressor decided something little longer would give closer real world results for better for worse pulled out copy space odyssey that had recorded off while back about fifteen minutes into the movie there sequence where the earth shuttle approaching the space station specifically digitized portion about seconds duration zooming the rotating space station figured this would give reasonable amount movement between frames increase the differences between frames digitized only frames per second give total frames captured the raw footage resolution pixels with the spigot card centris quarter size resolution from pal source then imported into premiere and put through the compact video compressor keeping the fps frame rate created two versions the movie one scaled resolution the other resolution used the default quality setting premiere and specified key frame every ten frames then ran the movie through the same raw speed test program used for the results been reporting earlier result playback rate over frames per second that right was getting much higher result than with that first short test movie just for fun copied the movie external hard disk quantum and ran from there this time the playback rate was only about frames per second obviously the internal hard disk also quantum significant contributor the speed playback modified speed test program allow the specification optional scaling factors and tried playing back the movie scaled size this time the playback speed was over fps clearly the poster who observed poor performance scaled playback was seeing quicktime action not try tests with quicktime but don think entirely compatible with centris and system unscaled the playback rate for the movie was over fps the other thing tried was saving versions the movie with preferred playback rates greater than and seeing how well they played from within movieplayer with quicktime normal synchronized playback preferred rate fps didn work too well the playback was very jerky compare this with the raw speed test which achieved fps with ease can believe that quicktime synchronization code would add this much overhead think the slowdown was coming from the mac system task switching preferred rate fps seemed work fine couldn see any evidence stutter fps think could see slight stutter but with four key frames every second was hard tell guess could try recreating the movies with longer interval between the key frames make the stutter more noticeable course this will also improve the compression slightly which should speed the playback performance even more lawrence oliveiro fone computer services dept fax university waikato electric mail ldo waikato hamilton new zealand gmt afraid missed the start this thread but there are three factors that can significantly affect quicktime playback speed that you may want take into account playback bit depth things are fastest when you play movie back the bit depth was compressed for this usually bit but other depths are course possible type scaling optimized for double size scaling other scaling factors hit peformance much harder playback window position movieplayer limits your window placement choices advantagous pixel boundaries default not sure about premiere any combination those can radically alter playback performance image size course another biggie giving the movie player lots ram can also make real difference forgive these were mentioned earlier the thread peter lee peter lee software conductor specular international inc lee umass edu beauty bits deep plus eight bits alpha channel
comp.graphics	help need bits viewer article seti inria deniaud cartoon inria gilles deniaud writes looking for program which able display bits images are using sun sparc equipped with parallax graphics board running xli xloadimage imagemagick export lcs mit edu contrib graeme gill
comp.graphics	povray tga rle article ltqp innpa pageboy utexas edu jhpark utexas edu jihun park writes hello have some problem converting tga file generated povray rle file when convert not get any warning message but use xloadimage getx something wrong error messages are targatorle rle data tga xloadimage rle rle bit rle image with map will dither bits with gamma dithering image done building ximage done xloadimage error badvalue integer parameter out range for operation xloadimage error badwindow invalid window parameter this happens when your server has run out memory you need more memory you need quit any neccessary running clients graeme gill
comp.graphics	povray tga rle rkkb gec james comp vuw craig humphrey comp vuw craig andrew humphrey writes article ltqp innpa pageboy utexas edu jhpark utexas edu jihun park writes hello have some problem converting tga file generated povray rle file when convert not get any warning message but use xloadimage getx something wrong edited know that need install ppmtorle and tgatoppm but not spend time install them even not want generate rgb from povray and then convert them rle possible rgb rle works but will mess directory with many files and needs more steps finally convert rle file say cat rawtorle rleflip does any body out there have same experience problems well for starters why use rle files exactly didn want mess with tga rle wrote the following script all you need the very standard set pbm utilities this script pov jpg converter just run like this pov jpg fred pov you will need modify the path the script reflect where you put povray and its include files you have problem with disk space you can use named pipes instead temporary files hope you find useful bin then echo usage width height sourcefile pov other options exit width height datafile shift basedatafile echo datafile sed pov thedatafile basename datafile basedatafile basename datafile pov dirdatafile dirname datafile dirdatafile afs rnd sas com sherman pov povsrc build povray afs rnd sas com sherman pov povscn include tmp data width height thedatafile echo rawtopgm width height tmp data grn tmp green rawtopgm width height tmp data red tmp red rawtopgm width height tmp data blu tmp blue rgb toppm tmp red tmp green tmp blue cjpeg basedatafile jpg tmp red tmp green tmp blue tmp data grn tmp data red tmp data blu echo wrote output basedatafile jpg chris sherman sherman unx sas com
comp.graphics	adobe photoshop mailing list done bit looking and havn been able come with mailing list newsgroup for users adobe photoshop assuming just not missed ahead and see there enough interest start mailing list and alt newsgroup drop note you might interested subscribing thanks bob wier not the grateful dead insert usual disclaimers here bob wier east texas state commerce texas historic image processing project wier merlin etsu edu watch for address change
comp.graphics	morphing article news duke edu seth north acpub duke edu seth wandersman writes keywords looking for some morphing programs for dec looked for program called dmorph using archie but could not find found progrmam call morpho but only did grayscale images does anyone know where should look try searching for dmorf think located wuarchive wustl edu mirror directory used before was pretty good pete wilmshurst email wilmshurst reg triumf
comp.graphics	where did all the rych festival hawkes noticed that you only save model with all your mapping planes positioned carefully file that when you reload after restarting they are given default position and orientation but you save prj file their positions orientation are preserved does anyone know why this information not stored the file nothing this because the prj project format saves all your settings right down the last render file name like able read the texture rule information does anyone have the format for the prj file sorry don have anything that the cel format ell deluxe stupid line noise
comp.graphics	parametric variational design here now some initial references best regards walter inproceedings keirouz author walid keirouz and jahir pabon and robert young title integrating parametric geometry features and variational modeling for conceptual design booktitle international conference design theory and methodology year editor rinderle pages organization american society mechanical engineers asme optpublisher optaddress optmonth note proceedings inproceedings yamaguchi kimura author yasushi yamaguchi and fumihiko kimura title constraint modeling system for variational geometry booktitle geometric modeling for product engineering year editor michael wozny and turner and preiss pages organization ifip publisher elsevier science publishers north holland amsterdam the netherlands optaddress optmonth note selected and expanded papers form the ifip nsf working conference geometric modeling rensselaerville september inproceedings chung author jack chung and joseph klahs and robert cook and thijs sluiter title implementation issues variational geometry and constraint management booktitle third international conference cad cam robotics and factories the future cars and fof year opteditor optpages optorganization optpublisher address detroit michigan usa month august note proceedings probably springer verlag berlin heidelberg article kimura author fumihiko kimura and hiromasa suzuki and toshio sata title variational product design constraint propagation and satisfaction product modelling journal annals the cirp year volume number pages optmonth note probably international institution for production engineering research article kimura author kimura and suzuki and ando and sato and kinosada title variational geometry based logical constraints and its applications product modelling journal annals the cirp year volume number pages inproceedings chung schussel author jack chung and martin schussel title comparison variational and parametric design booktitle autofact year opteditor pages optorganization optpublisher address detroit michigan usa month october november note conference proceedings article pabon author jahir pabon and robert young and walid keirouz title integrating parametric geometry features and variational modeling for conceptual design journal international journal systems automation research and applications sara year volume optnumber pages optmonth optnote article kondo author koichi kondo title pigmod parametric and interactive geometric modeller for mechanical design journal cad computer aided design year volume number pages month december note butterworth heinemann ltd inproceedings zalik author borut alik and nikola guid and aleksander vesel title parametric design using constraint description graph booktitle cad neue konzepte zur realisierung anwendungsorientierter cad systeme year editor frank lothar krause and detlev ruland and helmut jansen pages optorganization publisher informatik aktuell springer verlag berlin heidelberg optaddress month mai note fachtagung berlin inproceedings murtagh shimura author niall murtagh and masamichi shimura title parametric engineering design using constraint based reasoning booktitle aaai eighth national conference artificial intelligence year opteditor pages organization american association for artificial intelligence publisher proceedings volume one aaai press menlo park address boston month july august optnote
comp.graphics	need gif iff file format article rkjm bigboote wpi edu rtaraz bigwpi wpi edu ramin taraz writes could somebody please email some info either what gif iff file formats are where can get such info well gif stands for graphics interchange format and was put forth compuserve back was create format that could read and displayed any system gif limited bit color but has built compression scheme lzw iff not really graphics format but rather standard way package images sounds animations text whatever into one file iff was created electronic arts believe could wrong for the amiga was quickly adopted pretty much the standard file format for the amiga the most common image format for the iff package ilbm interleaved bitmap but many others exist this format supports bit color images information both these and many more are available via anonymous ftp zamenhof rice edu the directory pub graphics formats taken from the faq for this news group wayne rigby rigby unr edu
comp.graphics	pov where sorry this faq but where can get bit version pov ray any help would greatly appreciated need the version since turbo pascal won let run bit program from within program any info this would also great help thanks byron bkidd esk compserv utas edu kidd cam compserv utas edu byron kidd mail computing services
comp.graphics	geosphere image article alt graphics newsgroups alt graphics path news edu moliere rmalayte from rmalayte moliere helios edu ryan malayter subject geosphere images via ftp message apr news edu sender news news edu usenet news system organization university notre dame notre dame date mon apr gmt does anyone know digitized version the geosphere image available via ftp for those you who don know composite photograph the entire earth with cloudcover removed just think really cool was created with government funds and sattelites research project would assume the public domain thanks for any info ryan college men get smashed and break something college women get smashed and get broken robin wilson president ryan malayter chico state university stanford hall notre dame dept physics comp sci malayter edu
comp.graphics	help colour display restriction limitation netters doing project which about image analysis firstly have find out any restrictions limitations the colour display various kind workstations they are decstation amiga apollo secondly read from some graphic texts that image displayed bites please point out got wrong but the images which will deal with are displayed bites the software they are using currently will there any problems display them under windows the future because are thinking implement the gui windows for our project there any person here can help solve the problem query above give some advice suggestion where can find them out please send mail there are any thanks advance yours christine chan address golum riv csu edu
comp.graphics	tiff anything article apr yang earlham edu joshuaf yang earlham edu writes are there any tiff anything programs out there for the ibm our scanner works into tiff and can view cshow but all other programs read errors are there any basic tiff jpeg gif pcx bmp etc try winjpeg oak oakland edu pub msdos windows winjp zip has more tiff support than graphics workshop also converts all the above formats ken
comp.graphics	widget wish list what like see the more generic dimensional widget set realize that there wouldn whole shitload people who want more than but why stop all need widget with viewports showing different slices stuff alter pat pat ritcsh csh rit edu paf ritvax rit edu paflecke spectrum xerox com all objects are macroscopic invisible non physical otherwise non heisenbergish fuck the cat
comp.graphics	rgb hls hsv conversion routines wanted looking for rgb cube hls double hexcone hsv cylinder conversion routines have rgb hsv but miss the hls rgb hsv please mail directly not get this newsgroup site any and all help wil greatly appreciated gert gert bultman bultman dgw rws phone snail rijkswaterstaat dienst getijdewateren afd aoct mail postbus the hague the netherlands please mark all personal mail persoonlijk
comp.graphics	where did all the texture rules eric vitiello tfd coplex com eric vitiello writes rych festival hawkes noticed that you only save model with all your mapping planes positioned carefully file that when you reload after restarting they are given default position and orientation but you save prj file their positions orientation are preserved does anyone know why this information not stored the file nothing this because the prj project format saves all your settings right down the last render file name like able read the texture rule information does anyone have the format for the prj file sorry don have anything that the cel format well dived feet first and reverse engineered the prj file much needed extracted the mapping icon information which when dawned that studio useless for needs need mapping icon per applied texture want use special purpose graphics computer for rendering the models and requires texture rule plane specified space position orientation the mapping rule since only one mapping icon used apply textures all objects faces renders pun intended totally unsuitable for needs anyone got contact for alias upfront any other good modeller for must able specify texture rules one per texture and this must saved file which can read haven found any info alias the copy the faq that have rych
comp.graphics	convert plot ascii file looking for software that reads plot pcx other format and converts into coordinate
comp.graphics	best ftp viewer please could someone please tell the best ftp able viewer available for msdos running mhz with svga monitor need look gifs mainly and would advantageous ran under windows thanks
comp.graphics	rgb hvs and back have little question need convert rgb coded red green blue colors into hvs coded hue value saturnation colors does anyone know which formulas use thanks hartog remcoha solist htsa aha
comp.graphics	wanted bit viewer article seti inria deniaud cartoon inria gilles deniaud writes thanks the people who helped with the problem displaying bit images all the viewers like xli xloadimage and display are converting the bit images bit before display them the screen what really want viewer with make use the bit frame screen buffer our case the parallax one try imagemagick cannot test but one told does bit anyway are you sure your xserver supports bit truecolor visuals check with xdpyinfo brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.graphics	comp graphics research have not seen articles comp graphics research for long time does work anymore have seen many conference related postings comp graphics and hard believe that people have not tried post them research somebody has not got his article comp graphics research then write post here juhana kouhia
comp.graphics	polaroid palette system does anyone have any information the polaroid palette system appears gadget for transfering graphics images film does anyone have any detail about like the maximum supported resolution types video input what did polaroid market them fletch all irregularities will handled the forces controlling each dimension trans uranic heavy elements may not used where there life medium atomic weights are available gold lead copper jet diamond radium sapphire silver and steel sapphire and steel have been assigned
comp.graphics	tiff anything there program called graphic workshop you can ftp from wuarchive the file the msdos graphics directory and called grfwk zip this program should everthing you need tmc tmc spartan brocku could you more specific need that file too but couldn find amongst all the directories wuarchive page nixsp ccsvax sfasu edu
comp.graphics	monthly lightwave mailing list faq lightwave mail list what lightwave lightwave part suite programs that come bundled with device called the toaster from newtek inc that operates amiga platform the lightwave software lightwave lightwave and lightwave modeler allows and artist create three dimensional photo realistic images for variety purposes why are doing this this mailing list for those interested the lightwave software how operates and ideas how obtain the best quality images available them the list for those who own the toaster and lightwave well those just interested what can done with the package hope share information tips procedures and bond group what are the rules since lightwave modeler are just part the newtek video toaster software sure will discuss few items related the operation the toaster however will strive keep the subject revolving specifically around the software related tools and products you not have own toaster join this list how join become member the lightwave mailing list you must send mail message the address lightwave request bobsbox rent com the body the message enter subscribe lightwave your name your site domain just ask signed and will sign you the list this point time the process manual but hope get automated script based system place soon there shouldn too much delay joining expect welcome message within days after you send your request then expect the mail start flowing how post the list contributing the list simple just mail your articles the following address lightwave bobsbox rent com your article will processed the system and distributed all others joined the list your articles will also sent you you know that your article has made the list however those addresses that are either good longer active will bounce back you you post article and another members address longer valid your original article will returned you this doesn mean hasn been posted the list fact just the opposite true means that your article was posted and that couldn sent one more the members the list due bad address note hope have fix for this behavior soon how quit the list simply mail request removed from the list the same address you used sign lightwave request bobsbox rent com the body the message enter unsubscribe lightwave your name your site domain will remove your name from the list members please you join the list and your account going closed you will not able receive mail for while send request removed from the list you are just going lose access for short while still send request for suspension your membership and will suspend forwarding the articles you what about old articles currently archiving all the articles posted the list the originating site bobsbox however can not continue this due lack disk space what need volunteer that will maintain compendium articles sent the list they can compress and store them archives their system they can then periodically post index the contents the compendium and any other information that relates there are volunteers then maybe someone can donate large scsi hard drive for archival purposes grin have setup mail based file server that anyone interested the list can obtain information well the entire archive past articles the membership listing and other information pertaining the lightwave mailing list for information this service please send mail message fileserver bobsbox rent com the first command the server must help user name passwd use help request current copy the helpfile use user name passwd connect the service use get short listing all available commands now what well sit back and enjoy the pouring out information you have something offer please feel free contribute that information the list every little bit helps questions are welcomed makes some feel important when can answer them grin you have any questions comments regarding the list please contact the address lightwave admin bobsbox rent com cheers bob lindabury
comp.graphics	your one stop graphics shop rent com better than sharp stick the eye andy meyer are pleased announce that have just upgraded our system new hayes ultra bis bis modem that will allow connections from bps bps featuring graphics specific system for those you interested such things graphics image processing animation clip art and the latest public domain graphics programs graphics specific mailing lists such imagine dctv and lightwave mailing lists aliased easy read forums which you can join and read many more come free usenet access and free netmail sites all over the world the ability contact software hardware developers right their mainframes just sending them netmail from the graphics bbs not mention your kids college your parents from college with our quick connections and reliable links you can have your mail sent around the world matter minutes unique conference bulletin section the abilty join and keep track only the conferences that you enjoy the ability read files from your own personal file area for use messages also with proper access you can create your own conference and moderate newsfeeds from usenet that include topics such graphics mac amiga ibm science erotica ham radio star trek scuba diving programmers forums game designers forums and cyberspace forums the most sophisticated but easy learn and use mail system ever created for you can easily read your mail delete move your personal directory for storage and reply you can attach files your mail and send another member smart sendmail feature ensures accurate addressing netmail ability send mail and messages arpanet usenet internet bitnet and any the networks that interface with them around the world such fidonet peoplenet and the uucp network university and research facility systems file library containing downloads for most popular computers featuring easy learn and use system the library features master directory listing newscan and search capabilities well complete archived file listings the file library supports most popular transfer protocols such modem well advance protocols such link and modem the file library also doubles file server for users from other sites all around the world complete control over your environment you select whether you want hot key control menus more prompting etc you can define your cancel key and choose your terminal emulation you can also edit your personal login script what you want online games global war jet combat simulator etc new games added online manual and extensive help facilities complete tracking online usage time megabytes storage the graphics bbs currently runs ibm mhz with meg ram meg ide drive call the graphics bbs baud hours day everyday system administator bob lindabury bobl graphics rent com
comp.graphics	dxf pcx gif tif tga murashiea mail beckman com murashiea mail beckman com murashie writes does anyone know program for the that will take autocad dxf format files and convert them raster format like pcx gif etc thanks advance also interested such program but most all like know wich program able convert gif pcx dxf when have this program can scan pictures and frase something like that them this will beyond the limit roderick
comp.graphics	ntsc data rgb for video capture does anyone know how decode the color information ntsc signal need convert this data rgb for video capture utility writing for use with ibm motion video adapter card need know the how the and signals work the color process thanks advance for any information algorythms etc later hammonck net
comp.graphics	best ftp viewer please situnaya ibm bham wrote could someone please tell the best ftp able viewer available for msdos running mhz with svga monitor need look gifs mainly and would advantageous ran under windows thanks ftp wuarchive wustl edu change into mirrors msdos graphics get grfwk zip this the dos version graphic workshop there windows version which you could probably find the mirrors msdos windows directory but don know what the file name tmc tmc spartan brocku
comp.graphics	turning photographic images into thermal print and negatives jennifer lynn urso andrew cmu edu wrote well have lots experience with scanning images and altering them for changing them back into negatives that really possible stuff deleted jennifer urso the bitter woman utter blahness but cheerful undertones use aldus photostyler the and can turn colour black and white image into negative turn negative into colour black and white image don know how does but works well test scanned negative and used aldus create positive looked better than the print that the film developers gave tmc tmc spartan brocku
comp.graphics	interesting conversion problem have very large feet file macintosh canvas something which need import into autocad the least disk space intensive way possible eps big problem since took meg encode one page the document the file entirely lines and words have access networked macs and ftp can anyone suggest how this might accomplished email replies you would don read this group much thanks advance daniel alt case western reserve university cleveland help don have ulcers carrier can see you don pretend don like spreading rumors but what else can you with them there don practice what preach because not the kind person preach
comp.graphics	human head modeling software article wbp taurus nps navy mil adaptive nps navy mil zyda res acct writes there interested facial animation and want implement some program about this area but don have any information for the face looking for some images face try getting the cyberware demo via ftp which contains images the face what the copyright status this data are there restrictions regarding the uses they can put kaveh kaveh kardan kardank ere umontreal
comp.graphics	looking for hot mac anim software interested finding animation programs for the mac especially interested any programs that don exist port and are good that they would make buy mac any such exist thanks advance
comp.graphics	tiff philosophical significance silly bqs skates gsfc nasa gov xrcjd mudpuppy gsfc nasa gov charles divine writes article geraldo utexas edu mark cartwright markc emx utexas edu writes course the question has not yet been discovered but the question was later revealed what the base system course you read the last couple books the series closely well and least there are least two points which the real question implied conversations proceed much like zaphod what the ultimate question wonder arthur not paying much attention zaphod but needing random seed for the infinite improbability drive think number any number actually may marvin who uses this phrase few times well and everytime arranged such that think number any number could answer someone question about the question kind like very mystifying not even pick number tell number just think one kevin martin sigma rahul net use the flipper
comp.graphics	geosphere image article apr news edu rmalayte grumpy helios edu ryan malayter writes does anyone know digitized version the geosphere image available via ftp for those you who don know composite photograph the entire earth with cloudcover removed just think really cool was created with government funds and sattelites research project would assume the public domain thanks for any info ryan have copy the earth from space wall that purchased from space shots inc printed the poster the image was created tom van sant and the geosphere project the image copyrighted doubt that you find legally the public domain part the proceeds from the sale the image the geosphere project environmental education thing and the cost nominal crack and buy one also don think always safe assume that just because the government funded project any products will provided for free many government agencies nasa noaa and some private groups national geographic provided assistance the geosphere project this collaboration seems mostly oriented educating the public rather than pure research thomas trusk dept cellular biology anatomy email ttrusk its mcw edu medical college wisconsin milwaukee disclaimer have affiliation with any the above mentioned groups this just opinion not flame advertisement where who turned off the lights what that funny noise feel strange aaauuugggghhhhh
comp.graphics	donwloaded bin file from unix machine now what niko iastate edu nikolaus schuessler writes article matess gsusgi gsu edu matess gsusgi gsu edu eliza strickler writes just donwloaded bin file from unix machine which supposed converted mac format does anyone know what need this file get into any dos mac unix readable format someone mentioned fetch the unix machine this correct could someone explain the bin format little this almost certainly macbinary file which encoded version mac file the resource fork and data fork get preserved you need program that converts this regular file this macbinary file you may have downloaded text mode and probably corrupt you did you using ftp transfer any point make sure you type binary first you can open the file with text editor and find this file must converted with bin the top binhex file and can decoded with binhex among other programs opened the file with text editor and looks like vnetwork storyboardpictpict bim have already tried binhex which does not seem work any other ideas niko schuessler project vincent systems manager email niko iastate edu iowa state university computation center voice ames snail durham elizabeth strickler matess gsusgi gsu edu
comp.graphics	hpgl viewer and utilities article apr music mus polymtl gaetan lord ecole polytechnique montreal music mus polymtl writes would like know there any software not who could produce output hpgl file and same kind software who could produce hardcopy postscript and lasetjet try export lcs mit edu think that there viewer there called xviewgl check the readme contrib bill woodward wpwood austin ibm com try this first aix software support billw aixwiz austin ibm com graphics group the terror that flaps the night
comp.graphics	gif targa hello subject says all need gif targa converter that dta could make fli them krzysztof
comp.graphics	viewing jpeg files apr ucbeh san edu lwilson ucbeh san edu writes can view jpeg files without special hardware lucy wilson access services librarian college engineering university cincinnati yup most jpeg viewers seem require specific video drivers since they support only specific video cards some have the standard ibm bios video support for the vga colour mode but they leave out the other cards such the hercules monochrome card which the way can give very good picture quality your dithering works right can remember the name jpeg viewer since usually convert jpeg gif before viewing them but some require vesa driver for the video cards you don need any special hardware view jpeg except perhaps for vga card and maybe processor most people these days program for computers and neglect the rest the processors have clone nec processor and hercules card have had write some programs that they will view gif and animations for the vga and other colour graphics boards monochrome hercules card use floyd steinberg dithers and have found that one does something neat with the colour palette the resulting dithered image gives much greater detail than normally would when viewed other monochrome systems compushow has dithering but does the standard thing with the image palette before dithering way gives brighter more detailed image anyway enough rambling the wrong direction the final point far know you don need extra hardware view jpeg other than the vga and perhaps better have day gerry
comp.graphics	corel draw harvard draw wife wants publish newsletter she artist she intends use comercial clipart and customise bit drawing circle box around etc have mspublisher for manipulating text but not suitable for doing much with graphics she needs more specialised tool right now she looking corel draw and harvard draw there seem more books the stores corel than harvard she inclined with corel the basis popularity can anyone give informed opinion which package would more suitable there even better alternative available this faq please withhold the flames and just send the location the faq document thanks three use clip art from harvard draw whatever for commercial purposes have dpi laser jet printer what would good scanner for reading paper clipart how about someone starting newsgroup desktop publishing one doesn exist
comp.graphics	real time visualization hello interested hear from people working the field visual simulation driving simulation flight simulation etc would very pleased see what going the field research and industrial development for those you interested well there workshop preferedly held german situated wuppertal november specially related the above topic the title sichtsysteme visualisierung der simulationstechnik complete details are available please contact moeller rmoe welfag elektro uni wuppertal
comp.graphics	geosphere image rmalayte grumpy helios edu ryan malayter writes article alt graphics newsgroups alt graphics path news edu moliere rmalayte from rmalayte moliere helios edu ryan malayter subject geosphere images via ftp message apr news edu sender news news edu usenet news system organization university notre dame notre dame date mon apr gmt does anyone know digitized version the geosphere image available via ftp for those you who don know composite photograph the entire earth with cloudcover removed just think really cool was created with government funds and sattelites research project would assume the public domain this image copyrighted early another news group was being used texture map planet orbiting simulation that program was being freely distributed but the texture map picture for the earth had pulled because copyright infringement issues michael prevost sterling software moffett field prevost eos arc nasa gov
comp.graphics	kubota kenai denali specs article rkntjinnd names nerdc ufl edu lioness maple circa ufl edu writes okay got enough replies about the kubota kenai denali systems that will post summary their capabilities graphics transform modules frame buffer modules frame buffer bit bit double buffered double buffered buffer bit bit alpha stencil bit bit does this mean they can either alpha stenciling but not both simultaneously stereo support yes yes other both machines will double buffer stereo output per window both have auxiliary video output that ntsc and pal same question again does this mean they can either double buffering stereo but not both simultaneously paul pmartz dsd com evans sutherland
comp.graphics	help need bits viewer article apr nessie mcc lilley cgu mcc chris lilley writes article seti inria deniaud cartoon inria gilles deniaud writes looking for program which able display bits images are using sun sparc equipped with parallax graphics board running utah raster toolkit using getx convert your sun raster files presumably ppm with the pbm toolkit then convert ppm utah rle format with ppmtorle which provided the toolkit just use the urt tool rastorle seem remember that xloadimage can bit servers too yes both and the newer xli can wes barris minnesota supercomputer center inc email wes msc edu
comp.graphics	wanted bit viewer article seti inria deniaud cartoon inria gilles deniaud writes hello thanks the people who helped with the problem displaying bit images all the viewers like xli xloadimage and display are converting the bit images bit before display them the screen what really want viewer with make use the bit frame screen buffer our case the parallax one both xli and xloadimage will display bit color bit visual available check the output xdpyinfo see one wes barris minnesota supercomputer center inc email wes msc edu
comp.graphics	cga help wanted there looking for help rez cga modes hey know sounds crazy but the moment got card manual says does something like colour and colour the card has memory could anyone give some help how implement these modes assembly language fine any other usefull tips the cga regs will also help thanx advance frans email leander
comp.graphics	what has happened dkb trearn hello been the dkbtrace povray mailing list out trearn bitnet for some time now but when tried post the other day the listserv told that the list doesn exist got global list groups from the listserv and nothing grepped every string could think frank ville saari andre beck anyone else who regular dkb can tell what going please regards david drum mizzou missouri edu
comp.graphics	tangent vectors kochanek bartels splines working system which uses given set key frame positions control imaginary camera movement using kochanek bartels splines described the siggraph proceedings create variable number inbetweens between the key frames want the inbetweens given the form where the last three argumentsa are the and component the viewing direction vector the camera when positioned the method presented kochanek and bartels only deals with the positions the inbetween view points generated tried set the viewing direction view point equal the chord between the two adjacent view points which general are not key frames but this causes sligt discontinuity the viewing direction vector the key frame positions although the spatial movement seems work fine and quite certain think that not simply made implementation error now wonder anyone out there has used this spline form for similar purposes and how they decided the viewing vectors appreciate replies emailed iharkest lise unit anyone else interested the answer will sent summary the replies they contact iharkest lise unit comp nth norwegian institute technology some people play hard get play hard want ford fairlane
comp.graphics	need help buffering lines areas together david gorgen writes asking for help sticky problem involving unreasonably low apparent precision buffering that encountered different pex implementations can find any discussion this problem any resources can lay hands the comp windows pex faq gaskins pexlib programming manual vendors documentation the problem solved eliminate minimize stitching artifacts resulting from the use buffering with polylines that are coplanar with filled areas the interpolated values along line will differ slightly due roundoff error from the interpolated values across area even when the endpoints the line are coincident with vertices the area because this tossup whether the buffer will allow the line pixels the area pixels displayed visually the result tends dashed line effect even though the line supposed solid using the pexlib api approach solution use two slightly different pex view mapping transforms two view table entries one for the areas and one for the lines the pex structures immediate mode output must organized that one view table index always effect for areas and the other always effect for lines the result slight shift npc coordinates for the lines attempt bias the tossup situations favor the lines this shift effected moving the front and back clipping planes used the pexlib view table entry for lines just hair backwards smaller vrc coordinates compared their positions the view table entry used for areas this means that when point transformed npc its value will slightly bigger comes from line than comes from area thus accomplishing the desired bias would expect the roundoff errors which cause the problem amount few units most out the entire dynamic range the buffer typically from not bit buffers therefore seems that tiny fraction the range vrc between the front and back clip planes ought suffice reliably fix the stitching but fact experience shows that the shift has much the range empirically worst when the npc component the slope the surface high when appears more less edge the viewer only bits the buffer have any dependable meaning this amount great that one problem replaced another sometimes the polylines show through areas which they are supposed lie behind observed the problem both hewlett packard and digital workstation pex servers approximately the same degree the test program demonstrates the problem mit pexlib implementation this version known compile and run system with pex open questions why does this happen configuring the pex view table wrongly there systematic difference interpolation for lines opposed areas pixel centers versus corners which could corrected for are pex implementors wantonly discarding precision their interpolators something else what about can fix use the view table allow better precision buffered hlhsr there another approach can take remove the stitching artifacts just out luck here ibm have the same problem with our workstations was also shocked when first realized that you have offset lines from fills about bits assuming bit buffer this seems huge but only the dynamic range those terms doesn seem bad what happening that the interpolation not totally linear due mainly roundoff believe the polygon not planar but more like ruffles potato chip ditto with lines when you start end different values the ridges are out phase resulting the stitch effect you have the same problem you try draw polygon right top another but with different vertices you will likely see smeared effect where they overlap example try polygon polygon your implementation correct fact similar trick when rendering primitives that have lines and polygons such nurbs surfaces with isoparametric lines without the trick the lines appear stitched you say when the application draws lines polygons independently the system does not have the smarts automatically the shifting the application must this what you have discovered and are doing bravo note ibm ers the information given here has been previously disclosed through proper channels not giving away any new unpublished info mark einkauf einkauf austin ibm com ibm advanced workstations and systems graphics systems austin views and opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those ibm corp
comp.graphics	virtual sound looking for algorithms articles virtual sound what want the following from fast source cdrom several sound sources are read each having own defined position and other attributes direction etc given the listeners position and direction the sum sound played back each the listeners earphones will function this position and direction this means that some simulation the ears coloring sound relative incoming direction have done for each sound source think this possible with lookup table impulse responses for several angles relative each ear and interpolate impulse function from this for given angle this impulse function could then convoluted with the sound from the source this impulse function must changed every time some sound source changes position the listener changes orientation additionally some reflection diffusion and absorbtion due the environment wich defined could simulated but this requires some sort sound propagandation simulation kinda like some radiosity algorithm have someone done this and written articles implementing such system please post mail any answers comments torgeir veimo studying the university bergen gona wave freak flag high jimi hendrix and would okay any other day the police
comp.graphics	turning photographic images into thermal print and negatives jennifer lynn urso andrew cmu edu writes also anyone else doing what planning would happy hear from you with any advice you might provide the computer system you use and any peripherals software seemed the quadra would best bet modify photographic images planning buying quadra with megs ram meg hard drive dpi scanner sony monitor and meg cartridge drive and perhaps rom new computers and any advice would great well have lots experience with scanning images and altering them for changing them back into negatives that really possible scanning and altering big deal don know what types features you have your version photoshop but the one use which incidentally quadra has gallery effects and all types other neato stuff just wondering why you would want put your images back into negatives because once you print the image out that your print you know what exactly your aim all this like are you doing this just for fun for business gain more computer knowledge for project you working otherwise guess don know helping not posting info scanning and stuff cool seeya jennifer urso the bitter woman utter blahness but cheerful undertones for business and the end product has photograph take damaged black and whites usually old some very and repair them hand present would like this using computer just trying find vendor who can convert computer stored images negatives thermal print the customer will want his her copy much possible like brand new original photgraph david thanks all you who have sent information was very helpful learning about computers combined with photography anyone else has any information would grateful
comp.graphics	kubota kenai denali specs article apr dsd com pmartz dsd com paul martz writes does this mean they can either alpha stenciling but not both simultaneously don know the answer the this one although with bits would assume that was one the other stereo support yes yes other both machines will double buffer stereo output per window both have auxiliary video output that ntsc and pal same question again does this mean they can either double buffering stereo but not both simultaneously according the literature will quadruple buffering that you can have double buffered stereo output brian
comp.graphics	gif wpg tiff converter looking for available program that would convert gif files other formats usable dos based software such wordperfect presentations which will handle wpg and tiff among others any suggestions would appreciated thank you very much for your time and help steve alford novavax nova edu steve alford nova university college avenue lauderdale uucp gatech uflorida ucf novavax alford internet alford novavax nova edu
comp.graphics	tiff philosophical significance silly the number legs centipede now you know richard kirk image processing group crosfield electronics ltd rak crosfield hemel hempstead herts
comp.graphics	genoa windowsvga true color board for immediate release editorial contact single source marketing myra manahan genoa systems joseph brunoli neil roehm technical genoa presents high performance video graphics accelerator san jose calif usa genoa systems corporation announces windowsvga true color bit graphics accelerator card that delivers million colors speeds faster than the competition plus offers full range resolutions high refresh rates well unique proprietary performance features the card available both bit isa bus and bit vesa local bus versions models and with dram board the windowsvga card offers maximum resolution and supports refresh rate and resolution non interlaced both models provide performance many times greater than standard svga boards yet conform all current video standards windowsvga features genoa flickerfree technology which eliminates screen flash and flicker make viewing much more comfortable the cards also come with safescan utility developed genoa eliminate the black border around the screen and thereby provide percent screen use for overscanning monitors windowsvga model takes full advantage the speed offered the new vesa local bus technology most bus cards will only handle data transfers mhz but the will transfer data the full speed the cpu mhz genoa also offering this card the turbobahn combination packaged with their turboexpress motherboard built around the cirrus logic gui accelerator windowsvga offers the user exceptional price performance value genoa advanced proprietary drivers act turbocharge the chip thereby providing affordable accelerator card with power and performance that surpass many the more highly priced chip cards the genoa user will enjoy optimal speed and reliability for such programs windows autocad autoshade studio orcad and more driver updates and product bulletins are available genoa bbs genoa systems manufactures and markets extensive line graphics adapters motherboards audio and multimedia cards for ibm compatible personal computers all products come with two year limited warranty parts and labor genoa products are currently distributed worldwide through authorized distributors resellers vars and systems integrators for more information contact joe brunoli marketing manager genoa systems trimble road san jose calif tel fax stefan hartmann stefanh rahul net
comp.graphics	looking for patches better support tiff output recently have found tiff manipulation packages which not recognize tiff files output this due missing xresolution and yresolution tag which apparently required least believed required for valid tiff have checked both and and neither these indeed copy these tags has anyone out there hacked the fixes for support these tags have been told that could find some code tiff tools tiffcp but that directory one many the tiff group not distributed with hope obtain the original tiff src and look but would prefer find code already known work larry virden inet lvirden cas org personal falls place reynoldsburg
comp.graphics	paint program neopaint help looking for shareware graphics package called neopaint saw shareware catalog and was hoping that could ftp from the net but have been unable locate have tried archie and have gone through the entire comp graphics newsgroup looking for some reference and have found none have also looked through the faq and also reference the program called neopaint and anyone has heard knows where can get would appreciate suggestions for other based shareware paint programs would also appreciated email your responses much thanks sean
comp.graphics	sigkids research showcase call was brought attention that there was oversight the sigkids research showcase call for participation and entry form please note that the sigkids research showcase part siggraph august anaheim california thank you diane schwartz sigkids committee member institute for the learning sciences maple avenue suite evanston illinois schwartz ils nwu edu
comp.graphics	widget wish list very interested hearing from all you who are using implementing interactive applications what types widgets you would like have your applications widget usually located the same scene other objects the application may let you manipulate application data the camera objects the scene and view the status the application objects via the widget shape color position orientation and whatever missed but you think possible for example manipulative widget can virtual trackball shown partially transparent sphere super imposed the object rotated feedback widget can ruler with ends anchored objects the length the ruler changes the objects move and numeric value shown the ruler indicating the distance widget can provide both manipulation and feedback for example the ruler can used change the distance between the objects along its own axis please mail post your opinions interaction the information gathered will help design construction tool your help very much appreciated tony lau tlau ubc student dept computer science
comp.graphics	kubota kenai denali specs lioness maple circa ufl edu okay got enough replies about the kubota kenai denali systems that will post summary their capabilities graphics transform modules frame buffer modules frame buffer bit bit double buffered double buffered buffer bit bit alpha stencil bit bit pmartz dsd com paul martz does this mean they can either alpha stenciling but not both simultaneously lioness maple circa ufl edu stereo support yes yes other both machines will double buffer stereo output per window both have auxiliary video output that ntsc and pal pmartz dsd com paul martz same question again does this mean they can either double buffering stereo but not both simultaneously for both these questions inclusive alpha plus stencil supported they separate double buffered stereo steve hollasch kubota pacific computer inc hollasch kpc com santa clara california barbie had right math hard
comp.graphics	phigs user group conference first annual phigs user group conference the first annual phigs user group conference was held march orlando florida the conference was organized the rensse laer design research center operation with ieee and sig graph attendees came from five countries spanning three con tinents good cross section the phigs community was represented this conference with participants including phigs users workstation vendors third party phigs implementors stan dards committee members and researchers from industry and academia the opening speaker richard puk challenged phigs users take charge your phigs participating phigs standardization activities and communicating their needs phigs implementors the closing speaker andries van dam described his vision the future graphics standards beyond phigs technical paper sessions the conference covered the following topics phigs and application toolkits application issues texture mapping nurbs phigs extensions and object oriented libraries and frameworks panel sessions phigs and pex phigs non retained data real world cad applications using phigs and portability issues generated enthusiastic discussions and formed good forum for exchange ideas needs and experiences the conference also included day full tutorials topics rang ing from mathematics for graphics object oriented tools based phigs next year conference planned for march phigs everywhere the conference phigs vendors described and demonstrated phigs products that run all types computers from pcs mainframes megatek corporation demonstrated their phigs extensions including conditional traversal composite logical input devices texturing and translucency template graphics software launched figaro pro the photo realistic option for phigs figaro pro designed add advanced rendering the existing phigs api with features like ray tracing materials anti aliasing and texture mapping radiosity support also planned figaro example how tgs continues add newly emerging graphics features their products figaro supports immediate mode extensions phigs and also supports sun xgl starbase and sgi opengl figaro for will released this summer tgs also demonstrated the latest versions figraph powerful call charting system based phigs and figt object oriented utility library for phigs pex developers and gallium software demonstrated new version gphigs silicon graphics workstations scheduled for summer ver sion gphigs the company phigs library for worksta tions will include advanced phigs debugger that allows phigs developers display and browse phigs structures and other phigs internal state also described their non duplicated data store that stores pointers application data the gphigs css for more efficient use memory addition described their application gse that allows application callback functions during gphigs traversal gphigs and phigure data visual izer and application development toolkit are currently available all major workstations that support windows pex starbase wise software presented slide show phigs for windows and arena phigs based modeller render phigs implements most the phigs primitives addition phigs has built many advanced rendering features like texture mapping shadow genera tion area quick updates and ray tracing demo disk phigs arena available request atc exhibited grafpak phigs their full featured phigs implemen tation based dec phigs grafpak phigs available most workstation platforms with fortran and ada bindings and incor porates pex support within the booth sponsored advanced technology center digital equipment corporation demonstrated dec phigs running the dec axp pxg atcs grafpak phigs port dec phigs dec phigs contains most phigs and phigs plus features with support for pex protocol dec phigs also contains most eds phigs extensions including post view well proprietary extensions support immediate mode rendering and the use phigs environment axp dec and dec phigs are trademarks digital equipment cor poration grafpak phigs and atc are trademarks advanced tech nology center pex and are trademarks massachusetts insti tute technology the ibm exhibit featured gto accelerator attached ibm workstation running graphigs and pex hewlett packard and shographics demonstrated the conference hewlett packard machine was coupled display shographics pex terminal showcased their latest phigs product enhance ments phigs user group the phigs users group was formed aid the development phigs applications and provide user feedback phigs implementors and phigs standards bodies for more information about the phigs users group send mail phigsug cadrt edu write sankar jayaram virginia polytechnic institute randolph hall blacksburg fax vendor contacts megatek corporation tel fax template graphics software tel fax wise software gmbh tel fax north american sales tel fax advanced technology center tel fax digital equipment corporation tel international business machines corporation tel hewlett packard company tel copies the conference proceedings copies the conference proceedings may obtained contact ing mary johnson johnson mary design and manufacturing institute rensselaer polytechnic institute eighth street building cii room troy tel fax email mjohnson rdrc rpi edu the cost per binder
comp.graphics	parametric variational design everyone looking for papers articels books any other source information about parametric variational design cad solid modeling any suggetions references would greatly appreaciated thanks advance jayesh patel enuxha eas asu edu
comp.graphics	very broad question considering creating demo for the ibm for band would like combine interesting graphics and sample music the program have seen things like this done for other platforms and even few for the but since completly new this have idea wher start pretty sure that not skilled enough put this together but was hoping that you collectivly could let know what issues need worry about things should take into consideration when developing the concept perhaps someone knows programmer artist who would interested this type project know these are rather broad questions but any information would most helpful thanks gregory winer cwru edu
comp.graphics	rgb hvs and back article apr htsa aha remcoha htsa aha remco hartog writes have little question need convert rgb coded red green blue colors into hvs coded hue value saturnation colors does anyone know which formulas use have little answer see foley van dam feiner and hughes computer graphics principles and practice second edition people would read this book percent the questions this froup would disappear overnight spl steve lamont sciviguy spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource san diego jolla other car car too bumper strip seen
comp.graphics	gif viewer source code for does anyone know where could get some source code for gif viewer doesn have fancy would best were written display gif pictures vga screen was hoping get for free from ftp site but haven been able find yet david lau davidla ecs comm mot com
comp.graphics	final call for papers call for papers progress neural networks special volume shape analysis omid omidvar minsoo suk series editor volume editor significant progress has been made recently shape analysis using neural networks and the energy minimization concept ablex publishing corporation planning special volume shape analysis scheduled for this year this volume will part progress neural networks annual book series reviewing research modelling analysis design and application neural networks the primary aim this volume present single volume the most important achievements made this important topic which are otherwise scattered diverse literature authors are invited submit original manuscripts detailing recent progress suggested topics include but are not limited shape modelling shape estimation shape recovery shape representation shape matching surface reconstruction and surface decomposition research work utilizing neural networks directly based energy minimization techniques such markov random field mean field annealing simulated annealing graduated non convexity algorithms and resistive networks are most welcome the paper should tutorial nature self contained and preferably but not necessarily about fifty double spaced pages length please send electronically you prefer you can send hardcopy the address below abstract and outline msuk ima enst may the full paper must submitted july europe usa professor minsoo suk professor omid omidvar department images computer science department ecole nationale superieure university district columbia des telecommunications connecticut ave rue barrault washington paris cedex phone france fax fax email oomidvar udcvax bitnet email msuk ima enst
comp.graphics	acm siggraph registration problem word warning for those you registering for siggraph just received registration form back the mail with the envelope marked return sender moved left address closed box the address used register for siggraph the one printed the registration form acm siggraph box chicago printed the envelope best printing honest but evidently siggraph has skipped town moved ended faxing registration hope that number real michael zyda
comp.graphics	ntsc data rgb for video capture usually you apply after unlevelshifting and subtracting from them this matrix multiplication may give results out rgb space you have clamp the resulting bytes the conversion should done with arbitrary big integers not floats this applies yuv data whereas ntsc may have yiq where degree rotation buid brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.graphics	fast polygon routine needed article apr eye com jesse eye com jesse lackey writes article rguqoinnrc edna swin edu alan saturn swin alan christiansen writes believe that the algorithms you can get that will only draw convex polygons can much more efficient than those that can draw concave self intersecting polygons this efficiency can largely attributed the fact that simple convex polygons only have left and right edge each scan line complex figure type polygons can bit trickier true the convex algorithm faster than general concave multi outline algorithm but not tremendously faster spent awhile implementing and optimizing both flavors and the convex turned out about faster this all risc the compiler got the inner loop shooting the span fast possible far could tell for any sort game the database render known ahead time and can made all convex definitely the way thanks for help everyone still haven found quite what looking for but got finals coming soon have put all this hold thanx lucas
comp.graphics	digital terrain data for visualization needed need terrain data for visualization research currently taking place tel aviv university have two databases that are currently working but would like work more databases possibly more complicated and ones that will give prettier images before describe what kind data need let mention that are going present paper titled photo realistic imaging digital terrains which describes the research and the results the eurographics conference barcelona this september are going show video tape with some our results any good data that will receive will presented the tape with mention the donator are working databases consisting aerial satelite photographs and terrain elevation maps dtm each database consists array height values any data format can used for each value and corresponding array color values can gray level color value full bit values other format can also used work and resolution databases anybody has access this kind data knows where can get such data files please respond this news group better email directly amit math tau amit shaked danny indigo bgu daniel cohen course the names the people who will help get the data will cited our paper and further publications
comp.graphics	ftp site with gifs have been looking around some ftp sites and cannot find one with any good gif files could someone please tell some ftp sites which posses goods gifs and wide range please email the address above thanks martin
comp.graphics	kubota freedome more people have been asking for information the kubota graphics workstations here some more info the kenai denali the freedom here the text denali freedom done brown associates denali bears strong resemblance evans and sutherlands freedom graphics subsystem several aspects its high level design both products use parallel array processors for geometric computations both have pixel router connect this front end second array pixel processors result denali and freedome overlap significantly performance and functionality both design teams also appear have similar philosophies with respect modularity scalability and market penetration there remain however several important differences between the kpc and products evans and sutherland designed freedom high end developer dream system with plenty performance potential and flexibility its favor freedom has configurations from two sixteen floating point units border range that starts and ends higher price and performance levels than denali all freedom systems include large fixed number pixel processors that support broader variety color blending functions the freedom design treats its entire image memory general purpose memory allowing developers allocate flexible basis number special purpose applications finally provided freedom with very flexible otput and video integration features for multimedia and simulation applications note that kpc working auxiliary board for ntsc and pal output that will not require external video encoder programmable output features however will remain much more flexible the kpc design team contrast made denali more end user system entry version have better performance range and flexibility than low end freedom configurations and come more realistic mainstream price points denali does not need many modules freedome because uses deeper scan conversion pipeline support each one resulting better cost performance characteristics although both products provide strong support for imaging and volume rendering kpc recognized that not all users will want even mix these capabilities denali configuration flexibility allows customers effect purchase geometric and pixel processing capabilities separately and upgrade them separately needed both companies have implemented hardware texture mapping workstation price levels way attack sgi more expensive vgxt and realityengine systems the only other products provide this capability kpc supports point sampling and bilinear interpolation textures hardware but provides only software support for the higher qualtiy tri linear interpolated mipmapping method balance however denali provideds bettern overall texturing capabilities than for most applications aside from being much more affordable kpc solutions deliver more parallelism for texture processing and more off screen memory for general graphics data storage implementing texture mapping its transformation modules foces customers move very quickly higher price levels obtain better texturing performance kubota avoids this problem linking texturing its frame buffer modules providing lower cost more scalable solution hope this helps brian this was reprinted without permission for the full text please contact kubota
comp.graphics	problems article apr nessie mcc lilley mcc writes yes bit program this not bug never claimed bug can import bit images and quantises them down bits this handy facility not bug never claimed bug how would you suggest doing colour editing bit file how would you group related colours edit them together only global changes could done unless the software were very different and much more complicated you want colour editing bit image you need much more powerfull software which readily available commercially guess edited note this away from the article posted many newsgroups wrote something about making color modifications quickly with bit quantized images and only the saving the image file process have make the modifications the bit image this makes sense because the main use only viewing images doing many changes image should keep all modifications buffer and then before making the operations bit image should simplify the operation list for unnecessary operations and lastly jpeg compression algorithm can applied any image arbitrary bit depth again this not bug never claimed bug tried kept sure don claim that jpeg noting else than compression algorithm because know what the jpeg you propably misunderstood what wrote you have done many places far you also missed what were wrong with however did wrote juhana kouhia
comp.graphics	convertion program gremlin was wondering somebody knows program for converting any graphic formats such fig pic unixplot tek etc gremlin thanks dan
comp.graphics	human head modeling software article wbp taurus nps navy mil adaptive nps navy mil zyda res acct writes there interested facial animation and want implement some program about this area but don have any information for the face looking for some images face try getting the cyberware demo via ftp which contains images the face what the copyright status this data are there restrictions regarding the uses they can put kaveh kaveh kardan kardank ere umontreal kaveh all the data included with the cyberware demo non proprietary use you like just ask that you give credit you use research paper project and send the results thanks geo cyberware george dabrowski cyberware labs dabro taurus nps navy mil
comp.graphics	colour transform for red green colour blindness posted behalf craig southeren who does not have access net account can anyone provide with colour space transform that would emulate the effects red green colour blindness have had quick look the computer graphics literature with results perhaps someone who has access medical information could help would like write program probably ppm filter allow previewing images check for sufficient contract for colour blind users not being colour blind myself this bit difficult please email replies will summarise and repost there sufficient interest craig craig southeren you can have good cheap chief engineer fast any two picture start productions arthur clarke email geoffw ucc phone educate don legislate
comp.graphics	rgb hls hsv conversion routines wanted article sun nluug bultman dgw rws bultman writes looking for rgb cube hls double hexcone hsv cylinder conversion routines have rgb hsv but miss the hls rgb hsv have you checked foley book the solutions are chapter yeh usc
comp.graphics	rgb hvs and back article ltu buinne caspian usc edu zyeh caspian usc edu zhenghao yeh writes see foley van dam feiner and hughes computer graphics principles and practice second edition people would read this book percent the questions this froup would disappear overnight not really think less than nah figure most people would busy reading that they wouldn have time post spl steve lamont sciviguy spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource san diego jolla until meet you then upper hell convulsed foaming immortal blood farewell berryman professor song
comp.graphics	why does illustrator autotrace poorly use arts letters and you make use the tracing preferences traces beautifully but there trick tracing traced entire cartoon images into custom clip art but you can expect just point the image and get just like that takes little work some cases lot work you need trace drawing piece piece and then put together kinda hard explain type but you ever reno can give you little demonstration
comp.graphics	rgb hvs and back have little answer see foley van dam feiner and hughes computer graphics principles and practice second edition people would read this book percent the questions this froup would disappear overnight not really think less than yeh usc
comp.graphics	graphic design newsgroup which newsgroup discusses graphic design pcs and macs know like with corel draw
comp.graphics	screen capture there dos screen capture utility shareware that will work reliably with vesa screens thanks stockman hwstock sandia llnl gov
comp.graphics	arts letters graphics editor does anyone this group use this program stacks pretty well corel draw and since don have cdrom was the best buy maybe someone would interested trading tips and tricks
comp.graphics	ftp site with gifs mharring cch coventry martin writes have been looking around some ftp sites and cannot find one with any good gif files could someone please tell some ftp sites which posses goods gifs and wide range whatever you don ftp the sites listed sig you won like what you find really beg you not there please stastny otis project end process sound news and arts ftp sunsite unc edu pub multimedia pictures otis omaha projects otis email cwis unomaha edu sunsite unc edu
comp.graphics	colour transform for red green colour blindness article geoffw extro ucc geoffw extro ucc geoffrey warren hicks writes posted behalf craig southeren who does not have access net account can anyone provide with colour space transform that would emulate the effects red green colour blindness have had quick look the computer graphics literature with results perhaps someone who has access medical information could help certainly reference follows bear mind that there are least two conditions which may called red green colour blind one protanopia caused lack major dysfunction the cones those that respond best long wavelengths this gives much reduced red green and red violet discrimination and also means that reds look dimmer than than they people with normal vision the other deuteranopia due missing dysfunctional cones although can also caused lack the cone difference signals the retina also gives reduced red green discrimination but red violet unaffected unlike protanopia reds are not dimmer than normal uniform chromaticity diagram the horseshoe shaped one you see computer graphics books there single confusion point for each type colour deficiency colours which are confused lie straight lines radiating from this point for protanopia the point very close the far red corner for deuteranopia the point note that different experimental investigations the literature give slightly different values for these depending the precise details the experimental setup random errors and the values quoted are typical all colours line are seen the same which colour actually seen this problem has now been solved tests people with one normal eye and one affected eye have shown that there axis for each type disorder onto which all the colours collapse for protanopes this joins and the spectral locus the edge the horseshoe for deuteranopes the line very similar joining and convert colours from normal vision simulated protanopia duuteranopia plot the colour uniform chromaticity diagram construct line from this point the appropriate confusion point find the intersection this line with the appropriate axis line this the new chromaticity the best reference for this meyer greenberg colour defective vision and computer graphics displays ieee computer graphics and applications you will also need decent reference basic colour science you are not familiar with the cie xyz colour model and the uniform chromaticity scale diagram would like write program probably ppm filter allow previewing images check for sufficient contract for colour blind users not being colour blind myself this bit difficult yes this certainly possible you will need the chromaticities the red green and blue phosphors the monitor you intend display the images and the chromaticity the white point this information can measured obtained from the manufacturer posted list some monitor chromaticities couple weeks ago the procedure for each pixel follows some lookup tables might help here convert rgb cie xyz this simple matrix multiplication once you have the monitor data retaining the component for later convert xyz chromaticity coordinates using find the equation the line step above find the intersection step convert back from xyz using the value from step ensure that this new colour can displayed your monitor not move along line xyz space towards neutral grey half way between black and white until displayable please email replies will summarise and repost there sufficient interest done also posted for the rest chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester internet lilley mcc voice fax janet lilley mcc
comp.graphics	gif viewer having trouble viewing gif files system large sections don show have tried vpic and picem both the same running gateway with speedstar plus vga card and nec multisync inch monitor any suggestions don know robert woodward department physiology university missouri columbia mail mizzou missouri edu
comp.graphics	turning photographic images into thermal print and negatives article apr seq uncwil edu hawks seq uncwil edu david hawks writes for business and the end product has photograph take damaged black and whites usually old some very and repair them hand present would like this using computer just trying find vendor who can convert computer stored images negatives thermal print the customer will want his her copy much possible like brand new original photgraph there are several crt film writers around agfa has some they also might called matrix and pretty sure other companies sell the same equipment you might want talk any company your area that does presentation slides offers graphics services they should have those machines and they might point you local vendor from there all question money they units are essentially high res crts plus filter wheel plus camera and computer hook david reiner currently shooting slides for next talk one the agfa machines
comp.graphics	viewing jpeg files can view jpeg files without special hardware lucy wilson access services librarian college engineering university cincinnati
comp.graphics	libraries for text math graphics display does anyone know any libraries for preparing and displaying quickly pages mixed text mathematical equations and graphics circles ellipses etc the vdu the maths wouldnt need tex quality but would useful scaleable the main thing would able generate the display quickly from minimum set formatting code thanks campbell
comp.graphics	rgb hvs and back article ltu buinne caspian usc edu zyeh caspian usc edu zhenghao yeh writes see foley van dam feiner and hughes computer graphics principles and practice second edition people would read this book percent the questions this froup would disappear overnight not really think less than alternatively the questions cover the topics this group making them frequently asked the other cover the topics making them rarely asked and thus sore need answering chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester internet lilley mcc voice fax janet lilley mcc
comp.graphics	problems article rohjc avt tut lehtori tut kouhia juhana writes article apr nessie mcc lilley mcc writes moved bit wrote something about making color modifications quickly with bit quantized images and only the saving the image file process have make the modifications the bit image this makes sense because the main use only viewing images doing many changes image should keep all modifications buffer and then before making the operations bit image should simplify the operation list for unnecessary operations think about what you are saying here the bit image quantised down bits many similar colours are mapped onto single palette colour this colour gets modified fairly arbitrary ways you then want apply these modifications back the bit file you have find which colours mapped this one palette colour you could this copying the bit file bit file and using the extra bits hold the index entry having done this you need something them what exactly apply the difference rgb between the original and modified palette entry each colour the group this could generate colours with rgb outside the range would also lead discontinuities when different parts smooth colour gradient mapped several different palette entries you could interpolate from full modification modification depending how far each colour was from the palette entry however suspect this would look rather odd summary what said previous posting still holds how would you suggest doing colour editing bit file how would you group related colours edit them together only global changes could done unless the software were very different and much more complicated you want colour editing bit image you need much more powerfull software which readily available commercially other words edit bit file you need software built for the job tacking mods onto going create more problems than solves the other bits you seemed claiming that there were bugs that was not what you meant then you propably misunderstood what wrote you have done many places far yes probably did found that the collected digest format your posting made little difficult understand precisely what your point was sorry misunderstood you also missed what were wrong with however did wrote yes again what was wrong with chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester internet lilley mcc voice fax janet lilley mcc
comp.graphics	question modes need know there color graphics mode that allows multiple pages want something like mode pages have been experimenting with graphics calling the bios with borland turbo feel like flying blind this area and could use all the help that you can give thanks ivan ivan pulleyn university rochester mail uhura rochester edu
comp.graphics	raw gif hello can anybody help find program that converts format named raw also known img the gif format jpeg one desirable for unix machine than for raw format image file that contain tail characters each one referencing the pixel the monocrome image where and lies between and thanxs mne ing puc
comp.graphics	pbm dec when the new version does anyone know the fabled new version pbm will out soon far know the current version dec jeff are you out there jeffrey hundstad
comp.graphics	ascii ansi pics where can someone tell where could find ansi ascii pics already found the gopher ascii pics thanks richard mancsuo curdm uxa ecn bgu edu
comp.graphics	digital cameras interested obtaining the highest possible image capture windows application the resulting image must print and high resolution the name the game familiar with and unhappy with composite video capture technology what kind resolution can get out svhs signal what about rgb and who makes rgb cameras does anyone have any experience with digital cameras any help all would greatly appreciated william brandsdorfer uucp uunet lehman com wbrand lehman brothers inet wbrand lehman com greenwich voice new york
comp.graphics	windows bmp something wanted day all looking for program convert bmp images gif tga even ppm prefer unix program but dos fine also seen alchemy for dos and some windows image viewers which can save image other formats but what after converter not viewer any help would apprieciated cheers stephen peter unsw edu stephen peter steve keystone arch unsw edu school architecture university new south wales australia phone fax messages
comp.graphics	ibm writing screen memory graphics can anyone give information lead electronic information not books too poor regarding programming the standard graphics modes and are easy enough but not sure about the rest something about planes something and writing ports and the like but don know the numbers anything for the color modes think wrong let know also just one byte pixel that easy enough but are there any other ways write the screen perhaps bytes time something like that course appreciate any information about any mode which reminds another question the supervga modes work the same generally the normal and color modes not only the mode numbers for various cards different but the methods for writing the screen different well thanks for any help you can give developing screen class for and find myself searching for information have ralf brown interrupt list which has given tons invaluable information already just doesn into the screen programming details except for the read write pixel bios calls thanks again edward ball sigless knight eball calvin edu
comp.graphics	synergy revolt otis colaberation project the otis project presents synergy revolt the first continuing series collaborative art initiatives designed exploit the binarity the infosphere this series diversely structured art manipulation projects will attempt stretch across network boundries encouraging use electronic mail fax video photography scanned conventional art and even sound create multi artist still visuals gif and jpg formats visualists from all technical levels are welcome revolt will structured simply there will three stages production the first stage will consist all participants creating one still work starter piece that two other partici pants will turn manipulate all first stage base images are due sunday may midnight central daylight time stage two will begin may all images will sent another arbitrarily chosen participant for them manipulations anyway they see fit for purely digital artists this may consist filtering the image through their favorite paint program for analog artists this may well printing hardcopy the image and adding their own part with pen pencil white out then scan ning the image again transferred the third stage artist all second stage works are due midnight sunday may stage three the finishing stage and will begin may all artists will what they think takes finish the image they been given using whatever technique they see worthy these images will due june midnight all involved will participate each stage creation join send email mail with the following info name email address mail address scanner access color grey none printer access laser postscript inkjet color dot computer access mac ibm sun amiga atari next other output format tiff targa gif jpeg pict postscript fax photocopy pcx windows bitmap graphics level bit bit bit ftp access time limitations address the information email mad celt cwis unomaha edu andrew booth project manager include revolt the subject line mail the otis project synergy revolt omaha remember all starter images are due sunday may deposit them either these ftp sites sunsite unc edu pub multimedia pictures otis incoming projects otis incoming send uuencoded images via email send hardcopies address above arrange fax exchange you don get your starter image you won able participate until synergy phase mid june will our best accomodate facilitate image exchange for the technologically impaired you don have access scanner but need one try help you need image printed out and sent you let know send sase you anticipate this additional information available the following suggestions for use uncommon mediums such video stills electronic imaging and sound fax availability times copyright considerations appropriation image conversion the otis project general andy booth were you ever abducted aliens ever see elvis the local would like hear from you omaha about any paranormal experiences you have had
comp.graphics	rgb hvs and back remco hartog remcoha htsa aha wrote have little question need convert rgb coded red green blue colors into hvs coded hue value saturnation colors does anyone know which formulas use lets see have this right hsv hsb hsl and none those are the same hls hopefully hvs just transposition hsv and not yet another color model the following code should the hsv hsl coding haven tried yet thanks bultman dgw rws another possibility mirrors msdos graphics graphgem zip wuarchive wustl edu bill neisius bill solaria hac com the following code from the starbase manual all coordinates noralised interval hsl rgb hue saturation luminosity red green blue float hue saturation luminosity input hsl float red green blue output rgb float frac temporaries hue hue frac hue int hue luminosity saturation luminosity saturation frac luminosity saturation frac switch int hue case case red luminosity green blue break case red green luminosity blue break case red green luminosity blue break case red green blue luminosity break case red green blue luminosity break case red luminosity green blue break rgb hsl red green blue hue saturation luminosity define max define min float red green blue input rgb float hue saturation luminosity output hsl float tempr tempg tempb temporary values hue saturation luminosity max red green blue min red green blue luminosity calculate only necessary saturation luminosity luminosity saturation calculate only necessary tempr luminosity red luminosity tempg luminosity green luminosity tempb luminosity blue luminosity red luminosity hue green tempb tempg else green luminosity hue blue tempr tempb else hue red tempg tempr hue
comp.graphics	help needed dxf iff sorry this faq but are there any conversion utilities available for autodesk dxf amiga iff format checked the comp graphics faq and number sites but far banana please mail thanks pei hsieh mail cunixb columbia edu there such thing small job just small fees anon being architect
comp.graphics	looking for polygon convexifier does anyone know where can find code which would take concave polygons and break them into set convex polygons thanks kevin sahr piglet uccs edu
comp.graphics	looking for job software engineer not sure that supposed post this mail here however during the last year while was involved developing graphical user interface gui applications have enjoyed being personally part this news group wherin got some interesting information which helped work posting resuming hoping that people working area would make time look westgate hall isu ames april dear prospective employer seeking employment software engineer with interests software design and development which can utilize experience hardware programming graphical user interface gui operating systems and computer networking received bachelors engineering degree electronics engineering and degree electrical engineering dec from iowa state university currently enrolled computer engineering iowa state university during masters program research assistant since jan have published three papers including one the ieee transactions magnetics these papers are reflection the quality research and ability learn new concepts quickly have been involved many projects involving software developments and have extensive experience programming fortran and assembly level also familiar with operating systems like unix ultrix and dos familiar with motif programming and currently research assistant involved graphical user interface gui design using the multiplatform gui toolkit xvt experiences also include areas such operating systems and computer networks through course work and projects was involved the study the design and development the internals the xinu operating system have also been involved many tcp programming projects computer networking while college learnt the importance clear and concise communication have also learned lot about time management program have maintained grade average worked hours per week and have enjoyed being involved many other extra curricular activities software experiences along with hardware background electronics engineering would very helpful career goals software engineer request that qualifications may kindly reviewed would like have interview discuss your employment needs and career goals eager hear from you soon sincerely rajesh rajsnr iastate edu resume rajesh work residence coover isu westgate hall isu ames ames mail rajsnr iastate edu objective obtain challenging position software engineer involving software design and development which can utilize experience hardware programming graphical user interface gui operating systems and computer networking education currently enrolled computer engineering iowa state university ames iowa electrical engineering iowa state university ames iowa dec gpa major overall thesis probability detection pod models for eddy current nondestructive evaluation nde methods project funded federal aviation administration faa electronics engineering bangalore university bangalore india jan publications rajesh udpa and udpa numerical model based approach for estimating probability detection nde applications ieee transactions magnetics vol march rajesh udpa and udpa estimation eddy current probability detection using finite element model presented the annual review progress quantitative nondestructive evaluation conferance san diego california jul rajesh udpa udpa and nakagawa probability detection models for eddy current nde methods presented the annual review progress quantitative nondestructive evaluation conferance brunswick jul relevant implemention operating systems electronic devices and circuits course computer network architecture pulse and digital circuits work advanced computer communications artificial neural networks introduction supercomputing pattern recognition microprocessors and computer digital image processing organization digital signal processing computer technology and integrated circuits and design programming projects implementation the fork system call the xinu operating system also involved the implementation cpu scheduling algorithm taking into consideration the aging processes this project involved the study the design and development the internals the xinu operating system design and development interrupt driven keyboard driver this project involved thorough understanding device drivers design and development unix like tree structured directory which allows the creation subdirectories and organization files accordingly this project included the implementation routines such mkdir rmdir and support the directory structure analysis methods congestion control computer networks implementation the bellman ford routing algorithm for distributed network the communication between network nodes was based udp this project involved programming simulation the various digital logic functional units starting from the basic gates registers counters adders multipliers arithmetic logic unit alu and the project involved extensive programming unix environment work research assistant center for nde iowa state university ames experience aug present work involves development applications using graphical user interface gui toolkits familiar with programming motif environment more recent work involves development multiplatform gui applications using the portable gui toolkit xvt this project supported nist national institute standards and technology research assistant center for nde iowa state university ames jan aug work involved developing software for modeling electromagnetic nde techniques such the eddy current method also involved optimization the code the parallel computer cray ymp this project was supported faa and involved working close contact with the aircraft industry boeing trainee engineer indian telephone industries bangalore india work involved design and development microprocessor based programmable telephone dialler used cordless telephones involved programming microprocessor control the pulsing actions the relays telephone circuit jan nov computer languages fortran assembly level skills software motif xvt computer graphics hoops tcp programming image processing utilities sdrc ideas autocad operating systems unix stellix ultrix dos systems dec series and sun workstations macintosh stellar parallel systems cray ymp ibm maspar cube honours and iowa state university graduate college scholarship activities jan present ranked out over students bachelors engineering entrance examination ensuring full scholarship from the state pursue bachelors degree current member ieee references available upon request
comp.graphics	intel pci standard read mesg somewhere genie about intel coming out with graphics standard called pci which would supplant vesa standards this rumor there some substance any all have heard this standard please mail how might obtain more info thanks advance vamilliron othello ucd edu
comp.graphics	pov ray for vax computer there using pov ray ibm compatible home but would like run some things work our vax computer believe there version the source code for pov ray that vax specific but not sure where find looked the several sites where the ibmpc version can found can anyone help thanks advance ross kummer rmit melbourne australia internet address rkummer phillip edu clever signoff yet too busy playing with pov ray
comp.graphics	gws anybody know where can get graphics work shop brad utkvx utk edu
comp.graphics	problems article apr nessie mcc lilley mcc writes article rohjc avt tut lehtori tut kouhia juhana writes wrote something about making color modifications quickly with bit quantized images and only the saving the image file process have make the modifications the bit image this makes sense because the main use only viewing images doing many changes image should keep all modifications buffer and then before making the operations bit image should simplify the operation list for unnecessary operations think about what you are saying here the bit image quantised down bits many similar colours are mapped onto single palette colour this colour gets modified fairly arbitrary ways you then want apply these modifications back the bit file you have find which colours mapped this one palette colour suppose you don know what about have discussed discussed about error which shows images only bit and suggestion above works perfectly with far have seen colormap editing window that there must colormap anyway the problems you present are exist anyway and didn tried solve them all because would not make such problems programs the first place gamma and color corrections are easily done bit image presented there need make tricks from bit quantized image back bit image how would you suggest doing colour editing bit file how would you group related colours edit them together only global changes could done unless the software were very different and much more complicated you writing about situation that user want edit images bit and user want edit individual colors your questions the way jumps off the discussion bit solution doesn work because there colormap withing real bit image you see user see bit image going back bit silly about changing individual colors bit quantized rasterized image changing individual colors colormap useless most cases the image quantized and rasterized small change may make serious errors anywhere the image allows this feature but don recommend use with the mentioned type images moreover not paint program you can only make those global changes full bit changing individual colors sounds like paint program job person have bit screen there need for tricks get the original bit image modified because user don see full bit image there need make approximations and not possible modify individual colors but individual pixels pixel groups image rasterized select indiavidual color there could cursor window which shows true color image cursor window area selecting individual color possible from that don have thought very much bit painting programs never seen such good view and are not planned make such not mention bit painting program bit screen yes again what was wrong with saved bit quantized rasterized images bit jpegs jpeg not designed for that also human expect that bit will saved bit image say person would like crop part the image and save then expected that the image still the same were designed without thinking about human interface and how human expect the program work design error have heard were designed first for bit images files but were not good idea take full bit images without making major change the original design even all screen images are bit the processed images and saved images could have been bit very easily instead bit before anybody will make note yes may well make lift where means that the lift goes down and down means that the lift goes and put note this design solution the manuals however even the manuals tells the correct situation doesn solve the problem americans the lift just example well text may bit hard reading hopefully you suggeeded read juhana kouhia
comp.graphics	raw gif you can use pbm rawtopgm convert three raw files pgm format then you can use pgm toppm convert the pgm files composite ppm file and feed this cjpeg for compression slow and circuitous but will work rick
comp.graphics	help needed dxf iff article apr news columbia edu cunixb columbia edu pei hsieh writes sorry this faq but are there any conversion utilities available for autodesk dxf amiga iff format checked the comp graphics faq and number sites but far banana please mail thanks pei hsieh mail cunixb columbia edu there such thing small job just small fees anon being architect hei pei can not help you directly width you problem but there may intermediate roads take get the iff using converter that can take iges iif dxf iges milespec iges milespec iges iif milespec iif milespec iif and dxf iif ibm iges format there may converters out there that can handle iges iff hope this was any help the way the converter part the iges processor package from ibm and runs aix best regard finn chr lundbo ibm bergen environmental sciences solutions centre mail finn bsc
comp.graphics	for dos what the problem downloaded the file exe zip from the site someone posted here contained the files cjpeg exe djpeg exe exe when tried run just said couldn run exe and halts what the matter with this are there some files missing the zip what exe any help appreciated bye wolfram wolfram kresse mail wolfram rbg informatik darmstadt meeneemeeneemeenee yes that right tweeky
comp.graphics	alpha kubota graphic sgi who has experience with porting program alpha apx workstation with kubota denali graphic there any problems the real graphic performance like sgi indigo juergen fechter universitaet tuebingen wsi gris office auf der morgenstelle fax tuebingen germany email fechter gris informatik uni tuebingen
comp.graphics	tiff complexity article enet dec com you write anyone who thinks that tiff too complex hasn dealt with cgm asn cda dca sgml any one number other very successful file format people seem perfectly capable dealing with these others well yeah but unlike tiff they all substantially more than encode rectangular bitmaps and the others are hardly trouble free hear that quite common for cgm implementations not interoperate the annoying thing about tiff that that along with the useful options there are stupid options the most egregious example that rather than picking byte order and bit order and using consistently all tiff files byte and bit order are options and all tiff readers all machines matter what their natural byte order have prepared byte swapping there are four slightly different fax formats again any one them would have been adequate rgb images can stored pixel component complexity without function etc etc also note that the tiff doc says that aldus experiments show that lzw reliably compresses well better than any the fax formats suggesting that none the fax formats are really useful what worse lot the formats aren even implemented very well lzw limits code words bits while bits would have provided substantially better compression and the lzw method compresses bytes rather than pixels but the absolute worst thing about tiff that any vendor can register proprietary tiff codes and formats without even publicly documenting them this means that there way write tiff reader that can reliably read all incoming tiff files some standard regards john levine johnl iecc cambridge spdcc ima world iecc johnl
comp.graphics	help need bits viewer article apr labtam labtam graeme labtam labtam graeme gill writes article seti inria deniaud cartoon inria gilles deniaud writ looking for program which able display bits images are using sun sparc equipped with parallax graphics board running xli xloadimage imagemagick export lcs mit edu contrib shareware supports bit displays and has lots other improvements over earlier versions definitely worth checking out also export jean jean liddle computer science illinois state university mail jliddle ilstu edu
comp.graphics	looking for brain cad jasen mabus rpi student looking for hman brain any cad dxf cad iges cgm etc picture gif jpg ras etc format for animation demonstration any has knows location please reply mail mabusj rpi edu thank you advance jasen mabus
comp.graphics	sci files and sco files hello there week ago guy asked what sco file was well researched bit and foundout that just another rix file sci files are files and sco files are files alle the other formats are also called something like character regards rued
comp.graphics	real article vall dsv matt dah dsv mattias dahlberg writes rauno haapaniemi raunoh otol wrote earlier today read for real animation ray tracing software and looked very convincing yes looks like very good indeed however don own amiga and began wonder there version nope did not hear that there maybe some ports real version the pipeline somewhere possibly unix not too sure though please put straight gary work serc daresbury lab internet coulter daresbury uni staffordshire university hardware regards email mattias matt dah dsv love
comp.graphics	tom gaskins pexlib phigs programming manuals reilly article neuro usc edu merlin neuro usc edu merlin writes could someone explain the difference between tom gaskins two books pexlib programming manual phigs programming manual why would want buy one book the other book have pexlib and phigs comes from mit with pex and explained the phigs programming manual are just different api for the pex protocol which extension the protocol depends you what you use advantage phigs the protability other platforms ibm graphigs sunphigs and the standardized structuring the objects advantage pexlib the sometimes faster and easier programming for immediate mode graphics because pex not exactly mapping phigs prortocol ooo ooo roland holzapfel computer email wilhelminenstrasse graphics holzapfe igd fhg darmstadt center phone germany zgdv this space intentionally left blank
comp.graphics	intel pci standard vamilliron yes intel pci another local bus standard which can used for graphics although believe local buses can used for other things too far know though pci local bus would compete with vesa local bus not the vesa graphics standard but others more enlightened might able shed more light this matter
comp.graphics	wanted shareware graphics display program for dos need graphics display program that can take parameter the name the file displayed then just display that image and then quit all the other graphics display programs come with menu first some other silliness this program going run from within another program have lots memory and vga color any graphics format will has anyone heard such beast keith keith knudsen notre dame
comp.graphics	scia invitation the scia the scandinavian conference image analysis will arranged the norwegian society for image processing and pattern recognition nobim and sponsored the international association for pattern recognition iapr the conference will held tromsoe from may tromsoe located latitude degrees northern norway centre for administration and education about the programme the scientific programme runs over four days and includes invited speakers sessions three parallel tracks with contributed papers and poster sessions with contributions the conference covers the following topics image processing and analysis pattern recognition computer vision parallel algorithms and architectures neural nets matching methods image compression remote sensing medical and biological applications industrial applications conference language the official language the conference english invited talks and speakers segmentation range images via data fusion and morphological watersheds professor ralph gonzalez university tennessee knoxville object recognition using range images professor anil jain michigan state university experiments mobile robot navigation and range imaging judd jones oak ridge national laboratory image compression professor tor ramstad university trondheim combining evidence dictionary based probabilistic relaxation professor kittler university surrey matching methods professor sanfeliu polytechnic university catalonia workshop connection with the conference workshop contextual methods pattern recognition will arranged monday iapr for further information concerning the workshop contact torfinn taxt chairman univ bergen bergen norway phone fax mail torfinn taxt uib registration information the registration fee nok the fee covers proceedings entrance all oral and poster sessions exhibition lunches and coffee breaks get together party reception and banquet fees for accompanying persons are presented the registration form all payments must made payable norwegian kroner nok swift xiannokktrm bank giro service bank account sas conference forut christiania bank kreditkasse private cheques will not accepted the following credit cards visa mastercard eurocard diners access american express please note for payment with swift and bank giro service made from abroad please add banking fee nok please remember state scia and your name all money transfers registration and information the conference secretariat will available all four days the conference for registration and information may the sas hotel may the university exhibition exhibition relevant literature will arranged publishers are invited exhibit their products visit local companies and institutions involved the field mostly remote sensing will arranged accommodation reservation for hotel accommodation can made the registration form the scia conference secretariat sas luftreisebyraa att bodil lauritsen will provide hotel accommodation for the participants social events monday may get together party included the conference fee for delegates nok for accompanying persons tuesday may fishing trip the tour will last for hours and hopefully the midnight sun will visit board the boat there will music food and drink choice bring fishing rods and will possible have our own fish prepared board nok spouse programme visit cable car storsteinen meters above sea level visit the arctic cathedral and visit tromsoe museum nok wednesday may due the cancellation the svalbard flight will arrange visit the beerhall nok including beer and food spouse programme visit fishfarm the surroundings tromsoe nok thursday may banquet included the conference fee for delegates accompanying persons nok spouse programme visit the northern lights planetarium and the polar museum nok the spouse programs need minimum participants arranged post conference tours with visit lyngen finnmark and norh cape will also arranged for more information about the social program and the post conference tours see the registration form and information included with the registration form weather and dress the weather tromsoe late may can everything from hour sunshine with maximum temperature degrees celsius snowstorms with temperatures below freezing therefore recommended bring some warmer clothes local information the population approximately tromsoe you can take part many activities from mountaineering the midnight sun late night fun international restaurants and bars afternoon local beer the beerhall the world northernmost brewery also recommended the scandinavian conference image analysis scia will held the university campus the world northernmost university there will conference buses going the campus from within walking distances all the hotels more detailed information about the locations and transport will available the conference hotels travel information tromsoe airport langnes only minutes drive from the centre tromsoe the travelling distance from oslo minutes sas conference 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comp.graphics	pov ray for vax computer get the generic version for unix and vms and build imho vms com file build supplied the distribution comes tar you should either have uncompress and tar vms unix flavoured machine handy usually you won find this ibm specific archives but the better ones brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.graphics	problems oops what the hell crosspost this have look onto before saying anything more about power brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.graphics	picture ascii conversion was wondering anyone has ever seen heard utility that converts any type image format gif tiff pcx bmp jpeg etc ascii representation have seen some very sophiticated art ascii format but never was able find the author any program that may have converted the data from picture format any help leads would great thanks advance danny dunlavy ddunlavy casbah acns nwu edu
comp.graphics	arts letters graphics editor comp graphics menchett dws unr edu peter menchetti writes does anyone this group use this program stacks pretty well corel draw and since don have cdrom was the best buy maybe someone would interested trading tips and tricks yes have both arts letters and coreldraw personally like arts letters better but there are things like about arts letters that coreldraw doesn vice versa haven found the perfect graphics program that does everything yet favorite feature from coreldraw that imports alot different formats arts letters does not like the thousands clipart available with arts letters however find looking them book and referencing them number annoying one major problems that there isn any programs available the market for the artistically deprived betty harvey harvey oasys navy mil david taylor model basin adp networking and communication assessment carderock division branch naval surface warfare code center bethesda dtmb nswc fax
comp.graphics	software development libs for old targa boards revamping some computer aided visual inspection systems which use the old targa board set cards display images from color ccd camera color monitor providing the option overlay text crosshair image capture manipulation performed just display would like know there still source for development libraries which would allow embed commands own software enable the camera draw crosshairs print text etc glad pay they are commercially available mail possible joe ryburn cim manager intergraph corporation manufacturing integration huntsville
comp.graphics	sgi sales practices was crimson was kubota announcement olson anchor esd sgi com dave olson writes but surely you don expect system you buy now for five year period constantly upgradable over that entire five year period what sort interesting about this whole thread just how much has common with similar threads groups dealing with other vendor hardware currently deal basically with hardware from vendors apple dec and sgi and thus tend monitor the groups about those vendor hardware currently seems like sgi customers are pissed sgi about dropping support for the personal iris dec customers are pissed dec for dropping mips support favor the new alpha boxes and apple customers seem get pissed every time new mac introduced that faster and cheaper than the one they just bought when used sun customer years ago remember people being pissed sun for leaving their and customers out the cold when sparc came along what really interesting that from what can tell the mis folks the basement with their don seem pissed ibm why have idea either ibm really does take care their customers better they just have their customers brainwashed better than the smaller vendors roy smith roy nyu edu hippocrates project department microbiology coles nyu school medicine first avenue new york this never happened bart simpson
comp.graphics	lcd vga display please help have ibm compatible notebook computer with lcd vga screen while was working with this morning the screen started flicker little which thought was odd since use surge protector for computer and all peripherals only did this for second and then stopped left the room for several minutes and when returned the screen was completely dim not blank but very very dim the contrast slider still worked that could adjust where could faintly make out what was the screen but the brightness slider had absolutely effect was plugged the time not using the battery but still tried switching the battery changing the power saver features etc etc all avail has anyone else experienced anything like this this just means that need replace the screen then guess have but thought that the death lcd screen would little less dramatic when eventually happened didn want take repaired before asked the net about this because already know what they say yep you gotta have this replaced and gonna cost you only had the computer for about months that reasonable life cycle for lcd display guess ought give specifics here the brand compudyne this reputable company mhz forget the model number exactly and was too ticked off write down before coming work today anyone can help please give any advice you might have not opposed having replaced but rather not not absolutely necessary you wouldn mind please mail mike mik uky edu but you rather post checking back here couple days btw the answer this question already faq somewhere feel free flame away but would ask that you also include the location and name the faq you don mind thanks advance for any help mike mattone mike mik uky edu
comp.graphics	sgi sales practices was crimson was kubota announcement article calvin nyu edu roy mchip med nyu edu roy smith writes what really interesting that from what can tell the mis folks the basement with their don seem pissed ibm why have idea either ibm really does take care their customers better they just have their customers brainwashed better than the smaller vendors mis folks have infinite budgets death and they also get parts their budget allocated upgrades maintenance and new purchases and lot ibm mainframe purchases are actually leases and the software basically the engineers who have tight budgets the coders and designers company bitch and moan when they drop sparc only see faster machine appear year later mis types upgrade once every years and their costs are amortized and depreciated over longer period and the budget office justifies the expense because they actually use the machines for accounting payroll etc now the budget office was dependant the engineers for some reason like payroll and accounts you sure hell see every engineer with new cray his desktop every year brian
comp.graphics	fractel trees working senior project here florida the project requires fractel trees interested either psuedo real code just about anything will help perhaps some good books the subject could help too mail will reach quartz iriquois eel ufl edu thanks bill devore
comp.graphics	make your mind was problems article rqisi rhj tut lehtori tut kouhia juhana writes article apr nessie mcc lilley mcc writes article rohjc avt tut lehtori tut kouhia juhana writes wrote something about making color modifications quickly with bit quantized images and only the saving the image file process have make the modifications the bit image this makes sense because the main use only viewing images doing many changes image should keep all modifications buffer and then before making the operations bit image should simplify the operation list for unnecessary operations think about what you are saying here the bit image quantised down bits many similar colours are mapped onto single palette colour this colour gets modified fairly arbitrary ways you then want apply these modifications back the bit file you have find which colours mapped this one palette colour suppose you don know what about have discussed discussed about error which shows images only bit and suggestion above works perfectly with look consistent first you post something that seems suggest that you see being bit program some sort error post and asy not bug meant like that you post and say not bug you never said was have misunderstood etc now you are saying discussed about error which shows images only bit you would make your mind what you are claiming would make the discussion lot easier far have seen colormap editing window that there must colormap anyway the problems you present are exist anyway and didn tried solve them all because would not make such problems programs the first place sorry don understand what you are saying here aware that english not your native language and have tried hard fathom your meaning but this paragraph defeats gamma and color corrections are easily done bit image presented there need make tricks from bit quantized image back bit image yes originally said global changes are easily possible but this statement contradicts what you said earlier wrote something about making color modifications quickly with bit quantized images and only the saving the image file process have make the modifications the bit image how would you suggest doing colour editing bit file how would you group related colours edit them together only global changes could done unless the software were very different and much more complicated you writing about situation that user want edit images bit and user want edit individual colors your questions the way jumps off the discussion bit don think actually you were talking about loading bit image into quantising manipulating the colours the colour editor then somewhow applying these changes the bit file when you exit lets you edit individual colours where this sudden jumping off the topic solution doesn work because there colormap withing real bit image yes aware there colourmap bit file you see user see bit image going back bit silly not understand what this statement supposed mean about changing individual colors bit quantized rasterized image changing individual colors colormap useless most cases the image quantized and rasterized small change may make serious errors anywhere the image what are you saying allows this feature but don recommend use with the mentioned type images now see thew problem first you want extend allow editing bit previews bit images then point out problems with this now you are saying there problem because you personally happen not use those parts the program that cause the problem moreover not paint program you can only make those global changes not sure what you are saying here certainly one can make local changes full bit changing individual colors sounds like paint program job person have bit screen there need for tricks get the original bit image modified because user don see full bit image there need make approximations and not possible modify individual colors but individual pixels pixel groups image rasterized select indiavidual color there could cursor window which shows true color image cursor window area selecting individual color possible from that yes that one possible approach would find program that took such approach clumsy however don have thought very much bit painting programs never seen such good view and are not planned make such not mention bit painting program bit screen well here agree you have not thought through very much you don seem have consistent point make and contradict yourself from one post the next all have off days perhaps you should step back and think this one through yes again what was wrong with saved bit quantized rasterized images bit jpegs jpeg not designed for that said the last post jpeg compression algorithm way saving disk space trading off quality against compression fail see what the problem you have not proposed any workable alternatives also human expect that bit will saved bit image speak for yourself you are the only person have met spoken who having quantised bit image down bits expects this process somehow reverse when the file saved keeping all modificvations that heve been made the bit image palette perhaps that why you yused the singular say person would like crop part the image and save then expected that the image still the same look next time you import bit image into look carefully the main control panel tells you how many colours have been allocated the bit image makes abundantly clear that you are not editing the original bit file you are the only person who claims this confusing were designed without thinking about human interface and how human expect the program work design error design error the same bug read lips program for viewing and modifying bit images lets you import other images shows would say good deal thought about the human interface and everyone else seems use happily for the purpose was designed for makes false claims have heard were designed first for bit images files but were not good idea take full bit images without making major change the original design you would come with solid logical well argued and lucid description precisely how these proposed extensions would work feel free post them far you have not done even all screen images are bit the processed images and saved images could have been bit very easily instead bit argh after all this comment like that very easily ahead and code easy alternatively look the terms import and non reversible transformation before anybody will make note yes may well make lift where means that the lift goes down and down means that the lift goes and put note this design solution the manuals however even the manuals tells the correct situation doesn solve the problem americans the lift just example think this bit exageration what you are actually saying you got into lift elevator you are the states and mistakenly pressed the down button everyone else had problem now you are trying sue the manufacturer well text may bit hard reading you bet hopefully you suggeeded read mostly leaving aside the language issue however betrays some very wooly thinking you yourself admit which the same any language think some more chris lilley technical author itti computer graphics and visualisation training project computer graphics unit manchester computing centre oxford road manchester internet lilley mcc voice fax janet lilley mcc
comp.graphics	drivers for diamond viper card been away for couple weeks and have become out touch with the latest information the diamond viper card does anyone know diamond has come out with any vesa driver updates lately also was wondering what the latest windows driver version now thanks advance dan daniel hotopp internet hotopp ami bwi wec com antenna microwave integration vax tron hotopp ami westinghouse electric corp voice
comp.graphics	lcd vga display only had the computer for about months that reasonable life cycle for lcd display toshiba lcd cga died months replaced under the month warranty fortunately when died died instantly and completely
comp.graphics	surface contour plot ultrix plot surfaces and contour plots from set would really appreciate any hint the name such plotting program and where find thanks for your help
comp.graphics	full color image editor for sgi workstations happy announce the first public release the bit program interactive full color image viewer and editor based sgi besides typical touchup tasks such crop rotate smooth etc bit offers some unique features not available similar programs such text and vector support and the separation text and image the following the relevant sections from the man page pre release may bit name bit bitmap image touchup for sgi workstations description bit interactive full color image viewer and editor based silicon graphics full color program bit handles images both bits and color index natural and efficient manner image viewer bit allows list images displayed their original type bits color index any order and any the many built styles display you can walk and down the list using mouse and keyboard you can let bit the walk for you the slideshow with the pan and zoom features large images can viewed full without being limited the window screen size image editor bit performs large number image editing and processing tasks accurately and efficiently keeps information loss any stage the editing process absolute minimum performing subpixel sampling automatically while conserving the input image type whenever possible avoid unnecessary promotion and quantization input images you can also cut piece image and paste into another addition arbitrarily colored and sized text and simple geometric figures can rendered top image for annotation with the option make them part the bitmap output separately take advantage the higher printer resolutions postscript bit can also used graphical user interface many existing image processing programs defining external bindings which essence turn command line oriented programs into bit subfunctions and can accessed press button and best all the processed image will read back and displayed immediately convolution using exter nally defined matrices arbitrary order can performed dynamically giving great flexibility processing image features bit performs all its image manipulations interactively with continuous progress report and once the processing complete the processed image will displayed current features include rotates image arbitrary angle with the option anti aliasing and filling the rotated out region with arbitrary color scales image arbitrary factors and directions with the option subpixel sampling renders text arbitrary color size orientation top image with the option rendering directly into the raster saving the text and raster separately such into postscript file take advantage higher printer resolution besides normal text strings many predefined special symbols can input conveniently tex alpha small beta produces greek alphabet alpha followed slightly smaller greek alphabet beta presents graphically the histogram image performs arbitrary pixel transformation the transformation function can specified interactively and can arbitrary forms further the transformation can applied rgb channels separately simultaneously and the entire image portion many difficult tasks such thresholding can accomplished rather easily transformation combination with the avai lability graphical histograms the image places simple geometric figures sgfs arrows circles trian gles etc arbitrary color size and orientation into image arbitrary locations addressed either absolute pixels some user definable coordinate system units with the option rendering directly into the raster save the sgfs and raster separately postscript file all sgfs can scaled and directions independently simultaneously this how get ellipse from circle performs edge detection combination with image histograms and transformation very accurate result can obtained performs histogram equalization performs convolution with externally defined square matrices arbitrary order crops rectangular portion image cuts and pastes across images magnifies any portion image any amount displays list images sequence with user specifiable pause interval between images slideshow measures rgb intensities pixel any location all pixels along arbitrary line with the result presented rgb intensities intensity distance plot performs image type conversions converts image formats smoothes image special convolution filters image external programs and read the filtered image back and display modify individual pixel rgb values performs fft the entire image portion and display the resulting power spectra spray and brush paint full color unavailable this pre release supported formats iris rgb native sgi iris jpeg jfif format compuserv gif pnm portable any map including ppm pgm and pbm xbm window bitmap tiff postscript write only hardware requirements any sgi workstation that supports rgbmode including indigoes where get anonymous ftp monte svec edu pub bit bitxxx tar where xxx the version number current version read src readme for installation instructions after unpacking acknowledgement jpeg support based the independent jpeg groups library version forms library developed mark overmars used for gui both jpeg and forms library are included this release bit the program you will ever need view and annotate images the built editing features will satisfy most your editing needs addition the external filter and dynamical kernel will utilize any program you already have try and you will like always any comments bug reports are welcome
comp.graphics	stop this argument bit was make your stop stop stop stop this argument getting silly now handles bit images without quantizing them all these arguments are moot null and void please stop quibbling about now obsolete version the program besides you can now generate tons verbiage about the new shareware licensing uses instead mike mike ressler infrared photon jockey ressler cougar jpl nasa gov less science dead guys dos dos windoze dos linux finally getting something useful done with pet
comp.graphics	giant software yardsale software retail sale price graphics corel draw aldus photo styler image color photo finish these image scan paint image full pack picture publisher image prep snap pro images inc publisher paintbrush deluxe paint enchance softtype font workshop vista pro optibase workshop gfa cad utilities tree gold for win tnt anti virus salvation amish utilities multimedia smart text music clips audio tracks spinnaker plus mac spinnaker plus ask multi media make your point madison ave interface mac sound effects music bytes tempra show storyboard plus programming windows dev kit full windows maker pro top speed modula business the art negotiating telemagic full impact mac approach database ascend games nfl pro league football eco saurus hardware modem baud assorted joysticks willows vga amiga trac ball misc the wedding planner software yard sale fri sat sun mail pbenson cscihp ecst csuchico edu location nunneley paradise phone terms cash check charge visa accepted
comp.graphics	make your mind was problems article apr nessie mcc lilley cgu mcc chris lilley writes true bit you would come with solid logical well argued and lucid description precisely how these proposed extensions would work feel free post them don mind someone who would love see bit this would plenty for can load bit image and display all bit glory bit displays all other operations crop dither smooth etc are not supported bit images how hard would this ken fishkin fishkin xerox com
comp.graphics	anyone know use rayshade out there fineman stein washington edu twixt your toes writes using rayshade the computers here and like input from other users and perhaps swap some ideas could post uuencoded gifs here ray code anyone interested having trouble coming with colors that are metallic brass steel from the rgb values sorry not rayshade user but hey looks like this group could use some traffic guess that metallic isn color the rgb sense rather matter how the surface reflects light not sure what property metallic materials have that makes them recognizable such but pretty sure any color material can look metallic
comp.graphics	spline fit does anyone out there know site that might have spline fit routine useful for interpolation thanks for any help craig morioka craig cognet ucla edu
comp.graphics	what someone please fill what thanks
comp.graphics	sci files and sco files article apr daimi aau rued daimi aau writes hello there week ago guy asked what sco file was character regards rued yes why alex kiernan akiernan falcon demon
comp.graphics	tiff philosophical significance silly rak crosfield richard kirk writes the number legs centipede now you know that the number left legs both left and right dave bushong wang laboratories inc amateur radio callsign project leader recognition products ary noca internet dbushong wang com
comp.graphics	looking for info quadratic spline bezier conversion looking for algorithm pointers any papers how convert quadratic splines cubic splines beizeirs source available the public domain please let know thanks very much krishnan seetharaman mail kseethar ulowell edu phone snail mail department computer science umass lowell lowell
comp.graphics	mode does anyone know how access and display multiple pages mode while still maintaining the byte per pixel memory organization examples assembly would appreciated thanks scott
comp.graphics	viewing jpeg files there are jpeg viewers that are windows based and therefore need hardware specific drivers beyond those provided windows got mine from the library congress connection with their online exhibit books from the vatican library see previous message this newgroup about that gerald edgar gwe atc boeing com the opinions expressed this not may not represent those his employer
comp.graphics	looking for hot mac anim software mxp news udel edu stern brahms udel edu garland stern writes interested finding animation programs for the mac especially interested any programs that don exist port and are good that they would make buy mac any such exist thanks advance howdy think you would interested infini for the mac there dos windows version quite amazing program some the features bevel text timeline based animation sequencer realtime bounding box preview object linking phong shading ray tracing bounding box shading wireframe shading ghourad shading flat shading anti aliasing none low medium high environment maps quicktime support wrap movie around object procedural surfaces composed surfaces for layering surfaces alpha channel support import eps dxf and swivel files export dxf and swivel files spline based animation animation assistant for creating smooth movements and other stuff object morphing surfaces and bevels morph too and lots more that can remember right now anyway not expensive some the other animation rendering packages think you can get for around from macwarehouse they also have educational discounts well hope that helps bit see brendan duddridge internet umduddr ccu umanitoba america online brendand
comp.graphics	acm siggraph and acm general article apr koko csustan edu rsc altair csustan edu steve cunningham writes and siggraph has not skipped town preparing the best siggraph conference yet speaking siggraph just went through the ordeal annual registration for siggraph and upping membership the acm last night and was ever grossed out the new prices for membership are almost highway robbery for example siggraph basic fee went from last year this year for the same thing increase those facile enough arrange trip the annual conference could reduce this selecting siggraph lite which means siggraph charging additional for the proceedings and the art show catalog essentially toplas went cost way outstripping the current inflation rate basic sigchi fees remainded the same but whereas before sigchi membership included uist and human factors conferences proceedings these are now extra cost option bundling that back into the basic rate equivalent services have gone cost sigois membership cost has but they also split out the computer supported cooperative work conference proceedings that used included with membership adding that cost back means this sig also has doubled its membership fee what really galls that the acm sent out brochures couple months ago touting their new approach providing member services and tried make sound like they were offering new services but with the exception couple like siggraph all the plus services appear just splitting the costs into smaller piles that they don look big but their recommended changes membership would have paying more than last year for increase services measured cost not value and curiously inflation rate the publications got last year anyone out there galled this extortion robert reed home animation ltd robert slipknot rain com first court west linn shooting yourself the foot various languages and systems motif you spend days writing uil description your foot the trajectory the bullet and the intricate scrollwork the ivory handles the gun when you finally get around pulling the trigger the gun jams
comp.graphics	corel draw harvard draw larry landwehr larry ducktales med com wrote wife wants publish newsletter she artist she intends use comercial clipart and customise bit drawing circle box around etc have mspublisher for manipulating text but not suitable for doing much with graphics she needs more specialised tool right now she looking corel draw and harvard draw there seem more books the stores corel than harvard she inclined with corel the basis popularity can anyone give informed opinion which package would more suitable there even better alternative available this faq please withhold the flames and just send the location the faq document thanks with coreldraw pcmag just did review couple issues ago and adobe illustrator and coreldraw were picked the best three use clip art from harvard draw whatever for commercial purposes other two deleted far know okay you have read the licence agreement that comes with the package sure tmc tmc spartan brocku
comp.graphics	company info for graphics software within the next several months looking for job computer graphics software need info graphics software companies checked the faq the resource list and siggraph org haven found anything the last computer graphics career handbook that aware was published has list companies but tremendously specific information any them can people please steer towards more current and depth informational resources thanks post summary there interest brandon the opinions expressed are not necessarily those the university north carolina chapel hill the campus office for information technology the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu
comp.graphics	gif targa krzysztof muchorowski was asking about gif tga conversion that could use dta convert the tga files fli animation files krzysztof update your copy dta more recent release the current later versions dta can read gif files dkm
comp.graphics	universal vesa driver some time ago about month there was bit discussion about universal vesa driver for bit cards was the file uvesa zip well can find does anyone know where gorilla something something and what sort cards works for also would pushing luck ask for someone post some appropriate group kingsley turner nsw australia
comp.graphics	message for cgcad bart inescn sunil gupta ssg brunel wrote cant get through the author rtrace his site inaccessible can upload the new version somewhere else please problem solved its wuarchive graphics graphics ray rtrace why does seg fault often
comp.graphics	real heard friend who just return from nab from las vegas confirm that realsoft will releasing windows version real this summer was told that the rendering speed the isn fast however was also told that they are switching from microsoft watcom gain more speed for people who looking for powerful animation software for the wait shouldn too long real absolutely the most powerful and flexible package out there that sells for less than heard indigo version also under development
comp.graphics	source create fli flc does anyone know the source available create fli flc animations would ideally like dll for windows but would settle for source heard they might available amiga forums somewhere the libraries currently distributed autodesk aawin aaplay not have fli creation capability only playback any pointers would appreciated thanks andrew hudson abh genesis nred
comp.graphics	video speed using ibm with eisa and local bus and need get local bus video card the only hitch that need one that will allow the fastest anims flics from ram have megs ram meg simms using studio from autodesk and imagine from impulse they both write out the flc format does anyone know what would the best card for showing fast anims from ram like the orchid diamond stealth viper ati etc any help would appreciated trying circumvent the single frame route email trb msstate edu just post back here thanks
comp.graphics	what has happened dkb trearn david drum writes listserv told that the list doesn exist got global list groups from the listserv and nothing grepped every string could think frank ville saari andre beck anyone else who regular dkb can tell what going please just sent mail turgut kalfaoglu the maintainer the list and asked him what going the list for whatever reason really dead might have put list ourselves but for now want wait for his answer frank and just thought this would just another period silence
comp.graphics	help quicktime system problem unable run quicktime iivx running system and don know why there better group post this please let know quicktime works fine but when try run movie any application that supports like simple player canvas word get the message sorry system error occurred application unimplemented trap continue restart press continue and get the application unknown has unexpectedly quit because error type occurred substitute simple player canvas word for application and the messages are always the same restart with quicktime have problems any suggestions loss thanks advance yah please email don check the newsgroups very often dan bradley deb uxa cso uiuc edu
comp.graphics	fractal terrain generator does anyone know fractal terrain generator for mac something could hopefully import into program like swivel stratavision know infini has built capabilities but don have access infini downloaded two programs from umich graphics fractals but both were from and crashed under system think they were black and white anyway please email you know anything don check the newsgroups very often thanks advance dan bradley deb uxa cso uiuc edu
comp.graphics	where did the hacker ethic great many computer programmers read dobb journal recent issue there was paragraph article that pained greatly read said there nothing wrong microsoft setting the standards for the computer industry the industry needs ibm for the where has the hacker ethic gone not the cracker ethic which something entirely different and bad but the hacker ethic which tells value the free distribution information and yield the hands imperative why that people and corporations like bill gates ibm and intel are able have virtual dead lock the computer industry why that person like myself posts messages usenet how get into the little nooks crannies and idiosyncrasies computer system they are not given any useful information those who know just badmouthing are completely ignored why that people like steve jobs have abandon their efforts make truly innovative products ask those you who call yourselves hackers why this and further how can you let fact that the computer industry has changed the world and shall continue for long time come has allowed the propagation information volume unheard even twenty years ago and has made this world even smaller than was before shudder think what that world will like the corporations are allowed have their way perpetuating more drivel like the windows and the ibm product line the computer using public that not say against business per people who profit off innovative intelligent creative designs not bother fact applaud that the american way but those who manage sell kludgy uncreative systems the public and profit off them are the ones who are the problem and unfortunately because they have enough money make for blunt stupidity they can keep doing for very long time put you thus where has the hacker ethic gone still exists where and does exist why are those who call themselves hackers allowing this perpetuate itself why are they not creating new innovative interesting ideas stop the sos from maintaining its choke hold the computer industry await with interest what will probably resounding silence pstlb acad alaska edu revenge dish best served cold szechuan death khan singh star trek the wrath khan
comp.graphics	lcd vga display mike mattone mike mik uky edu wrote has anyone else experienced anything like this this just means that need replace the screen then guess have but thought that the death lcd screen would little less dramatic when eventually happened didn want take repaired before asked the net about this because already know what they say yep you gotta have this replaced and gonna cost you only had the computer for about months only that long time echoing above posting the way the market going nowadays your machine obsolete two weeks before you buy sounds like you have sink some money into for repair but that sometimes necessary for equipment that reasonable life cycle for lcd display think months with nothing wrong until now quite reasonable you had bought compaq toshiba you might have reasonably expected the machine last longer before something went wrong but that moot point perhaps sandy santra trevor netcom com berkeley california trevor well
comp.graphics	lcd vga display article bab llt vcd com edmoore vcd com moore writes only had the computer for about months that reasonable life cycle for lcd display toshiba lcd cga died months replaced under the month warranty fortunately when died died instantly and completely worked support for while company and had problems with several toshiba short space time they were all around years old some screens went completely above others were just dodgy this happened about out maybe they were fairly reliable then and don think was special problem with tosh link the company would think that months may not unreasonable just unlucky regards kate kate kingman cstxqbe dcs warwick leave the typos the tall blonde esudb csv warwick occupy all the bored people out there
comp.graphics	creating fli flc animation files looking for means add fli and flc animation creation windows application was hoping for something along the lines aawin aaplay autodesk but for the creation these delta compressed animations have flilib but this seems coded for the large memory model dos with turbo ideally would like dll medium model object library but would settle for anything really seen other windows apps with fli flc creation did they hack the flilib code into submission any pointers would appreciated please send mail directly and will summarize the results there interest andrew hudson abh genesis nred
comp.graphics	where did the hacker ethic article may aurora alaska edu pstlb aurora alaska edu writes put you thus where has the hacker ethic gone still exists where and does exist why are those who call themselves hackers allowing this perpetuate itself why are they not creating new innovative interesting ideas stop the sos from maintaining its choke hold the computer industry how about the gnu people handing out very good free software also distributed two decent sized programs myself the player fumiko ftp washington edu and the genetic neural network programmer cerebrum somewhere out there only had time write these programs because scholarships and grants the intended benefit society loophole the system peter dudey kyu lisp subguru order the golden parentheses finger reformed church james eric the half bee dipped curry shadowy flight into the dangerous world man who does not exist please mail plastic spaceships state salem
comp.graphics	where did the hacker ethic where did the hacker ethic hackers the and are now comfortably employed and supporting families the next generation takes the radical lead now don look for radicalism among old ones gone grady netcom com
comp.graphics	avs presentation university toronto instructional and research computing sponsoring technical presentation visualization software thursday may sandford fleming building room advanced visual systems will present this technical seminar avs the world leading visualization software package avs point and click module driven easy use product that produces full color two three dimensional rendered scenes for interactive observation supported all current unix risc platforms from sun sgi ibm and dec also runs under dec vms avs its fourth year the street and very mature all fields science engineering medicine and even business applications now use avs this seminar will focus its many features technical detail during half hour slide presentation following question period there will live demonstration using sun sparcstation addition new avs program called campus will introduced this meeting also discussed will the international avs center which provides line repository over graphics modules the north carolina supercomputer center raliegh avs has imbedded tools write one own customized modules should these not available with avs from avs international the scheduled speaker for this presentation paul ecklund ecklund associates the distributor avs canada
comp.graphics	adobe photo shop type software for unix motif platforms article world std com sci image processing comp graphics wdm world std com wayne michael writes have been searching for quality image enhancement and manipulation package for unix motif platforms that comparable adobe photo shop for the mac stuff deleted understand that adobe working making photoshop available for the sgi indigo but that just rumor and wouldn bet until see but they are going release illustrator for the sgi real soon now charles boesel diablo creative pro for and con against cboesel diablo holonet net then what the opposite progress work what else congress
comp.graphics	make your mind was problems article apr nessie mcc lilley mcc writes allows this feature but don recommend use with the mentioned type images now see thew problem first you want extend allow editing bit previews bit images then point out problems with this now you are saying there problem because you personally happen not use those parts the program that cause the problem see previous article this debate for the rests can see agree with view cases you don even say personal opinion above doesn mean that not most obvious thing please you use previous writings contradicting argument please read them you have not saw them all you just refered text from which wrote something and you make hard decisions from that without reading what exactly have written really hard read when one writes reply line line method and don understand include previously written material with the new sentences give them meaning you seem one such you also start replying articles even you don understand what going you ask repeatedly decsribe views what were wrong with even posted them within the article you did reply believe not nice get flamed specially when know that you have not read article carefully the first place and jpeg faq and users have written agree with the places you didn sure you just didn undertand what about wrote can blame writing skills english for that better stop the discussion and check what new ideas gives allready mailed one bradley juhana kouhia
comp.graphics	fractal terrain generator deb uxa cso uiuc edu daniel bradley writes does anyone know fractal terrain generator for mac something could hopefully import into program like swivel stratavision know infini has built capabilities but don have access infini downloaded two programs from umich graphics fractals but both were from and crashed under system think they were black and white anyway please email you know anything don check the newsgroups very often thanks advance dan bradley deb uxa cso uiuc edu yes have written something that creates meshed fractal terrain surfaces for exactly the purpose you require importing into modelling packages warned the data content high and brings many packages their knees use primarily for microstation but exports dxf well other formats you should you can get from ftp mirror site the wuarchive wustl edu stuff located the mirrors architec directory please ftp the readme file first paul bourke school architecture property planning pdbourke ccu auckland the university auckland private bag fax auckland new zealand paul bourke school architecture property planning pdbourke ccu auckland the university auckland private bag fax auckland new zealand
comp.graphics	direct acess video memory looking for information how directly manipulate video memory have application that would like use this for because much faster than going through the bios know that video memory ispart the system area above the first guess looking find out exactly what section memory and how layed out thanks regards gordon rogers gnr psuvm psu edu void signature void
comp.graphics	there ftp achive for usgs terrain data article apr welchgate welch jhu edu danj welchgate welch jhu edu dan jacobson writes lot interesting stuff about gopher deleted you never heard gopher don worry free and the net write note you like information how get started best luck dan jacobson danj welchgate welch jhu edu heard but lost the intro posting that came out while back could you post again think general interest ben ben olasov olasov columbia edu
comp.graphics	universal vesa driver kintur scorch apana org kingsley turner writes some time ago about month there was bit discussion about universal vesa driver for bit cards was the file uvesa zip well can find does anyone know where gorilla something something and what sort cards works for also would pushing luck ask for someone post some appropriate group kingsley turner nsw australia host swdsrv edvz univie location dos graphics file mar uvesa zip host plaza aarnet edu location micros garbo screen file apr uvesa zip location micros oak graphics file mar uvesa zip host godzilla cgl rmit location kjb mgl file mar uvesa zip host nic switch location mirror msdos graphics file mar uvesa zip location software simtel graphics file mar uvesa zip host ipc rvs uni hannover location pub msdos koeln graphics egavga file apr uvesa zip host sun urz uni heidelberg location pub msdos simtel graphics file mar uvesa zip host athene uni paderborn location pcsoft msdos graphics file mar uvesa zip host compute ncsu edu location mirrors wustl mirrors msdos graphics file mar uvesa zip host rigel acs oakland edu location pub msdos graphics file mar uvesa zip host usl edu location pub msdos video and graphics file mar uvesa zip host isfs kuis kyoto location mirrors simtel msdos graphics file mar uvesa zip file mar uvesa zip host ftp net location systems ibmpc msdos simtel graphics file mar uvesa zip lance norskog thinman netcom com data not information not knowledge not wisdom
comp.graphics	graphics software company info within few months looking for job computer graphics software need info companies that there nothing any the faq for this group and nothing siggraph org least couldn find anything the last computer graphics career handbook was dated had info companies but nothing specific any them can people please direct towards more current and detailed sources information post summary sources there interest also could you please mail our news server the fritz thanks brandon the opinions expressed are not necessarily those the university north carolina chapel hill the campus office for information technology the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu
comp.graphics	graphics software company info believe many people will happy have this information please post the comp graphics thanks changyaw
comp.graphics	adobe photo shop type software for unix motif platforms article diablo uucp diablo uucp cboesel charles boesel writes article world std com sci image processing comp graphics wdm world std com wayne michael writes have been searching for quality image enhancement and manipulation package for unix motif platforms that comparable adobe photo shop for the mac stuff deleted understand that adobe working making photoshop available for the sgi indigo but that just rumor and wouldn bet until see but they are going release illustrator for the sgi real soon now charles boesel diablo creative pro for and con against cboesel diablo holonet net then what the opposite progress work what else congress was adobe seminar conference propaganda forum whatever you want call couple months ago where they announced that display postscript was going included the next release sun presumably solaris sun was going drop their development newsprint and return for this adobe was going port illustrator and photoshop sun other than the articles that appeared the trade journals immediately after haven heard peep about hope still the works david farley the university chicago library east street jrl dgf midway uchicago edu chicago illinois
comp.graphics	need recommendations imaging workstations need recommendations imaging workstations minimum have the following requirements high resolution graphics black and white for display fax images support the display multiple simulataneous windows fax image emulation window ibm host etc high speed network interface for image data etc token ring ethernet etc mouse any information experience would appreciated thanks car
comp.graphics	looking for polygon convexifier does anyone know where can find code which would take concave polygons and break them into set convex polygons also would like code algorithms this fact interested sources for code and algorithms that convert graphical objects into other graphical objects that will render into the same image bezier curves splines splines circular arc segments splines polgons etc michael dillon internet mpdillon halcyon halcyon com powerhouse fidonet armstrong voice canada bbs
comp.graphics	wanna scan bit colr picture bit color dpi fladbed scanner can the job for you gif tiff pcx bmp interested please write imagesyz aol com
comp.graphics	need specs for mpeg mpg file format looking for the specs for the mpg files that are floating around the alt binaries pictures groups the net please lemme know where can obtain the spec email thanks much james murray add sciences sdsu edu
comp.graphics	easy translate jpeg code article rfsqbinnc shelley washington edu stusoft hardy washington edu stuart denman writes does anyone out there have any jpeg decompression code pretty much any language that can read and understand have trouble understanding the jpeg group code that got from ftp site any one can send some good code will appreciate lot thanks the problem that the process inherently complicated the ijg code pretty good you ask and have watched through many many cycles revision try getting good book the subject that will explain the algorithms specifically jpeg still image compression standard pennebaker mitchell vnr isbn btw presume your comment about good code wasn meant sound offensive does david clunie dclunie pax tpa com
comp.graphics	ftp site for pov files know this has been asked million time but what was the ftp site carrying zips full pov source files including jack zip and kettle zip once been there but unfortunately lost the address little hurry with please mail jtheinon kruuna helsinki thanks jarkko
comp.graphics	where did the hacker ethic article gradyc awe netcom com grady netcom com writes where did the hacker ethic hackers the and are now comfortably employed and supporting families the next generation takes the radical lead now don look for radicalism among old ones gone and guess who here your place please finger xyzzy gnu mit edu for information you are mail news only site mail xyzzy gnu mit edu with the subject line send finger daniel drucker sxx xyzzy gnu mit edu forever forever coda und dzd vaxc hofstra edu
comp.graphics	jpeg fif specification recently got document describing the jpeg fif jfif file format was looking thru but didn get the idea how determine the size pic pixel without decoding the whole image how you get the height and width jpeg jfif how you determine wether color greyscale picture wrote small tool lsgif for gif that returns the filesize picture size and color resolution analizing the header chunks the output looks like this bla gif use this lsgif create index files archive and since jpeg are getting more and more popular would like have similar tool for jfif with output like this bla jpg please respond email because don read this news group very often post summary useful thanx advance larry lars larry michael gif murphy law lars itu sun can wrong will lsmichae informatik uni erlangen spec stud univ stellenbosch south afrika ham grad stud univ erlangen nuremberg germany irc pit
comp.graphics	fractint speedstar still looking for fractint drivers new release which supports the bit color mode the diamond speedstar there are some and million colros drivers but none work with the any help would appreciated thanks chad new sea world ohio chad cipiti shark cipiti bobcat ent ohiou edu encounter make contact cleveland freenet edu
comp.graphics	where did the hacker ethic perhaphs what bill gates and steve jobs are now the result the natural evolution successful hacker either you make money jail lee feldenstein just fade away that uncle and who really likes computers what computer hacker and does will change long the definition the word computer continues change james murray add sciences sdsu edu
comp.graphics	there ftp achive for usgs terrain data article columbia edu olasov columbia edu benjamin olasov writes article apr welchgate welch jhu edu danj welchgate welch jhu edu dan jacobson writes lot interesting stuff about gopher deleted you never heard gopher don worry free and the net write note you like information how get started best luck dan jacobson danj welchgate welch jhu edu heard but lost the intro posting that came out while back could you post again think general interest ben ben olasov olasov columbia edu this heavily edited modified version the gopher faq intended give people just starting with gopher enough information get client and jump into gopher space complete version can obtained described below once you have gopher client point merlot welch jhu edu and welcome gopher space dan jacobson danj welchgate welch jhu edu common questions and answers about the internet gopher client server protocol for making world wide information service with many implementations posted comp infosystems gopher comp answers and news answers every two weeks the most recent version this faq can gotten through gopher via anonymous ftp rtfm mit edu pub usenet news answers gopher faq those without ftp access should send mail mail server rtfm mit edu with send usenet news answers finding sources the body find out how ftp mail list questions the gopher faq what gopher where can get gopher software what need access gopher where are there publicly available logins for gopher who develops gopher software what the relationship between gopher and wais www ftp are papers articles describing gopher available what veronica what available for biology what gopher the internet gopher client server provides distributed information delivery system around which world campus wide information system cwis can readily constructed while providing delivery vehicle for local information gopher facilitates access other gopher and information servers throughout the world where can get gopher software via anonymous ftp boombox micro umn edu look the directory pub gopher what need access gopher you will need gopher client program that runs your local workstation there are clients for the following systems the directory following the name the location the client the anonymous ftp site boombox micro umn edu the directory pub gopher unix curses emacs pub gopher unix gopher tar xwindows athena pub gopher unix xgopher tar xwindows motif pub gopher unix moog xwindows xview pub gopher unix xvgopher macintosh hypercard pub gopher macintosh turbogopher old versions macintosh application pub gopher macintosh turbogopher dos clarkson driver pub gopher client nextstep pub gopher next cms pub gopher rice cms pub gopher viegopher vms pub gopher vms pub gopher mvs pub gopher mvs many other clients and servers have been developed others the following attempt comprehensive list microsoft windows winsock client the gopher book sunsite unc edu pub micro stuff windows winsock goph tbk zip macintosh application macgopher ftp utah edu pub gopher macintosh another macintosh application gopherapp ftp bio indiana edu util gopher gopherapp port the unix curses client for dos with tcp oac hsc uth tmc edu public dos misc dosgopher exe port the unix curses client for nfs bcm tmc edu nfs gopher exe beta version the gopher client for novell lan workplace for dos lennon itn med umich edu dos gopher vms decwindows client for use with wollongong ucx job acs ohio state edu xgopher client share note these macintosh clients require mactcp most the above clients can also fetched via gopher client itself put the following gopher server type host boombox micro umn edu port path name gopher software distribution point your gopher client boombox micro umn edu port and look the gopher directory there are also number public telnet login sites available the university minnesota operates one the machine consultant micro umn edu see for more information about this recommended that you run the client software instead logging into the public telnet login sites client uses the custom features the local machine mouse scroll bars etc local client also faster where are there publicly available logins places telnet order get taste gopher for gopher here short list use the site closest you minimize network lag telnet public logins hostname login area consultant micro umn edu gopher north america gopher uiuc edu gopher north america panda uiowa edu panda north america gopher sunet gopher europe info anu edu info australia gopher chalmers gopher sweden tolten puc gopher south america ecnet gopher ecuador gan ncc gopher japan recommended that you run the client software instead logging into the public login sites client uses the custom features the local machine mouse scroll bars etc and gives faster response furthermore many the basic features clients saving file your hard drive printing file local printer viewing images retrieving files from ftp sites etc are not available the telnet logins who develops gopher software gopher was originally developed april the university minnesota microcomputer workstation networks center help our campus find answers their computer questions has since grown into full fledged world wide information system used large number sites the world many people have contributed the project too numerous count the people behind the much the gopher software can reached via mail gopher boombox micro umn edu via paper mail internet gopher developers union minneapolis usa via fax what the relationship between gopher and wais www ftp gopher intimately intertwined with these two other systems shipped the unix gopher server has the capability search local wais indices query remote wais servers and funnel the results gopher clients query remote ftp sites and funnel the results gopher clients queried www world wide web clients either using built gopher querying using native http querying are papers articles describing gopher available gopher has whole chapter devoted the whole internet kroll reilly editors note great book out and buy bunch the internet passport northwestnet guide our world online jonathan kochmer and northwestnet published northwestnet bellevue isbn contact info passport nwnet net students guide unix harley hahn publisher mcgraw hill inc isbn other references include the internet gopher connexions july interop exploring internet gopherspace the internet society news you can subscribe the internet society news sending mail isoc nri reston the internet gopher protocol proceedings the twenty third ietf cnri section internet gopher proceedings canadian networking the internet gopher internet getting started sri international section tools help internet users discover line treasures computerworld july tcp network administration reilly balakrishan oct spigopher making spires databases accessible through the gopher protocol spires fall workshop chapel hill north carolina tomer information technology standards for libraries journal the american society for information science sept what veronica veronica very easy rodent oriented net wide index computerized archives veronica offers keyword search most gopher server menu titles the entire gopher web archie ftp archives veronica gopherspace veronica search produces menu gopher items each which direct pointer gopher data source because veronica accessed through gopher client easy use and gives access all types data supported the gopher protocol try veronica select from the other gophers menu minnesota gopher server point your gopher name veronica search menu items most gopherspace type port path veronica host futique scs unr edu what available for biology there incredible amount software data and information availble biologists now gopher here brief list the biological databases that you can search via gopher bdt tropical data base searches biotechnet buyers guide online catalogues for biology tel search protein data bank headers chlamydomonas genetics center crystallization database hgmp databases probes and primers museum paleontology type specimen index mycdb mycobacterium database search drosophila flybase indiana search genbank swiss prot pir pdb search aatdb arabidopsis thaliana database search acedb caenorhabditis elegans database search compoundkb metabolic compound database search databases welchlab vectors promoters nrl est omi search embl search genbank search genbank search genbank updates search limb search pir search pir keyword species search prosite search rebase restriction enzyme database search swiss prot search tfd search the elegans strain list search the dna database japan search the enzyme database search the graingenes database search the maize database cloning vectors plasmids phage etc epd eukaryotic promoter database est expressed sequence tag database human west expressed sequence tag database elegans kabat database proteins immunological interest nrl protein sequence structure database omim online mendelian inheritance man seqanalref sequence analysis bibliographic reference data ban search rebase restriction enzyme database search the enzyme database search the rodent section genbank database taxonomy genbank swiss prot retrieve full pdb entries accession number search for all researchers funded nih search for genome researchers funded doe search for researchers funded nsf search for researchers funded the usda mail addresses crystallographers mail addresses yeast reasearchers phonebooks around the world search and retrieve software for all computers search and retrieve macintosh software search and retrieve dos software search and retrieve gnu software search and retrieve software for biology search for agricultural software search and retrieve graphics software and data search and retrieve all online perl scripts ftp sites for biology archives for software and data and the list goes this just the beginning
comp.graphics	looking for polygon convexifier article rvpmc nwfocus com mpdillon halcyon com michael dillon writes does anyone know where can find code which would take concave polygons and break them into set convex polygons also would like code algorithms this although not offering code would like point out that any polygon triangulation code satisfies the task stated you want code partition polygon into the minimum number convex pieces doubt very much exists although algorithm known
comp.graphics	lcd vga display trevorc netcom com trevor netcom com sandy santra writes mike mattone mike mik uky edu wrote only had the computer for about months only that long time that reasonable life cycle for lcd display think months with nothing wrong until now quite reasonable you had bought compaq toshiba you might have reasonably expected the machine last longer before something went wrong but that moot point perhaps maybe had epson portable with backlit lcd since which still used daily and the screen that fine the only problem has and ever has had the arm the screen sorta lose and you bend fairly harshly the screen goes off until you wiggle round bit but other than that been perfect what that about months justin sullivan system administrator dialix services sydney modem justin sydney dialix perth
comp.graphics	where did the hacker ethic article pandora sdsu edu add sciences sdsu edu james murray writes perhaphs what bill gates and steve jobs are now the result the natural evolution successful hacker either you make money jail lee feldenstein just fade away that uncle and who really likes computers what computer hacker and does will change long the definition the word computer continues change perhaps you write freely available gpled unix for commonly available computer platforms machines and become catalyst for major netwide project which produces better unix like than many commercial counterparts see comp linux for details maybe you found legue for programming freedom fight restrictive litigation and software patenting practices thereby protecting the creative freedom vital continuing progress our field maybe you start gnu project and produce far and away the best compiler for unix there not mention other valuable utilities some hackers make significant contributions without selling out their ideals for bill gates after pawning grossly inferior software onto the market for ten years ever was hacker deserves have his name eradicated from the annals computer hackery for like running linux countless other packages without paying dime the other hand have problem purchasing motif other good software long microsoft hasn fouled with their inept input cents worth flames will patiently ignored jean jean liddle computer science illinois state university mail jliddle ilstu edu
comp.graphics	how can download files graphics how can find these files and graphics that people are downloading from their unix systems then how download them complete beginner this obviously please baby step through the process first all don see amongst these newsgroups where there anything remotely like gif tif compiled shareware program thanks advance for any information you can give know there unix command ftp that will allow this but first need know where find the file want download via ftp etc thomas helke egret wet uucp
comp.graphics	where can find someone who can digitize currier ives does anyone know any currier and ives etchings have been digitized for use desktop publishing particularly interested their riverboat scenes does anyone know who can get for fee good digitized river boat image thank you david dumas david dumas dmd isis msstate edu david dumas dmd isis msstate edu
comp.graphics	help needed dxf iff article apr news columbia edu cunixb columbia edu pei hsieh writes sorry this faq but are there any conversion utilities available for autodesk dxf amiga iff format checked the comp graphics faq and number sites but far banana please mail dxf can not changed over iff format what can changed object format used one the programs the amiga the only tools around are comercial for that conversion yury german blue knight bknight jpr com blue knight productions genie blue knight graphic design and video productions
comp.graphics	where did the hacker ethic from article may aurora alaska edu pstlb aurora alaska edu put you thus where has the hacker ethic gone still exists where and does exist why are those who call themselves hackers allowing this perpetuate itself why are they not creating new innovative interesting ideas stop the sos from maintaining its choke hold the computer industry since this was posted comp assume there angle this hacking what students when they really supposed doing something else thesis research write getting their supervisors pet programs run properly etc one gets much glory for hacking and one gets any money out producing good free software requires enormous investment time resources that not many people can want afford particularly during recession addition over the last years think there has been emphasis producing running programs research and greater emphasis more formal approaches problem solving students have been proving theorems instead writing programs conference year two ago johann kleer suggested that everyone should get back the keyboard and write more programs that demonstrate their ideas and have say inclined agree don claim superhacker but don think that invalidates remarks and sure this isn the whole story peter jackson dept electrical computer eng clarkson university opinions expressed are not those employer any other organization second violin fiddling firefighters ensemble rome branch
comp.graphics	help needed dxf iff article blue knight bknight jpr com blue knight bknight jpr com yury german writes article apr news columbia edu cunixb columbia edu pei hsieh writes sorry this faq but are there any conversion utilities available for autodesk dxf amiga iff format checked the comp graphics faq and number sites but far banana please mail dxf can not changed over iff format what can changed object format used one the programs the amiga the only tools around are comercial for that conversion hijaak claims convert dxf iff although hijaak claims some stuff that have never gotten work for example not long ago tried convert some iff files from amiga video toaster using crossdos could read the disks int targa files hijaak made some gorgeous megabyte targa files from the iffs all totally black mac mcdougald any opinions expressed herein the photography center are not necessarily actually univ tenn knoxville are almost certainly not those mac utkvx utk edu the university tennessee mac utkvx bitnet things are more like they are now fax than they ever been before
comp.graphics	tel for scanners needed hello all need make some torso scans and would like the phone numbers companies the midwest that make scans and the numbers companies that make the sanners cyberware does anyone have idea how much single scan costs and the best format save not sure what software platform will using probably either softimage wavefront think spline based format would best please forward the numbers personally having problems accessing usenet lately thanks advance patrick maun gab awiuni edvz univie paul
comp.graphics	make your mind was problems can load bit image and display all bit glory bit displays all other operations crop dither smooth etc are not supported bit images how hard would this not very you just type xloadimage getx instead
comp.graphics	modelers for unix could someone please post list good three modelers that will run sparc stations preferably cheap thanks richard rws virginia edu
comp.graphics	where did the hacker ethic where did the hacker ethic hackers the and are now comfortably employed and supporting families the next generation takes the radical lead now don look for radicalism among old ones gone perhaps all hackers have become ick professionals have noticed and associates progression from hackers computer professionals rather distasteful occurs when series things happen one ego outgrows one talent knowledge one financial situation takes precedence change priorities esp family possibly leading the hacker attitude makes the shift from fun work one vocation burns away the creativity needed for the hobby the biggest killer imo one dreams are sadly shattered the hard rocks society version reality without the dream the motivation dies without the motivation the effort seems useless another set problems stems from our children while most remember when there were several completely different computer systems our children are growing with just few choices msdos mac amiga and not enjoy the diversity did remember the great computer fallout the early eighties vividly was forced stop using skills developed for systems that were now dead the diversity systems before then allowed for widely divergent paradigms that period forced hackers continually learn new systems the attempt keep not mention that program was needed were forced most situations write ourselves commercial offering was just not available now our children are being taught the user mentality the number old timers dwindle are not being replaced the next generation kendall kendall sears krsear ulkyvx louisville edu programmer child development unit amiga department pediatrics currently running amigaos university louisville and supporting unix sys rev life game you play once order win you must make difference remember this not practice session
comp.graphics	what smithsonian institution ftp address does antone know the ftp address for the smithsonian institution where one can get digitized photographs etc please reply email pbenson cscihp ecst csuchico edu thanks paul benson
comp.graphics	companies involved with scientific visualization anyone has list companies doing data visualization software hardware would like hear from them thanks krs subramanian bell laboratories email krs research att com mountain murray hill
comp.graphics	help needed dxf iff blue knight bknight jpr com yury german writes dxf can not changed over iff format what can changed object format used one the programs the amiga the only tools around are comercial for that conversion actually iff format standard not picture file format sound file format but there exist several formats that use the iff standard the iff picture standard used mostly everybody form ilbm just ilbm the only iff specification know tddd which used imagine and predecessor turbo silver possible that some the other amiga packages use another iff spec but don know any lightwave will load tddd form believe christopher fury this space for rent cfury csugrad edu call quoteme for more information
comp.graphics	definition occlusion everyone don clearly understand occlusion computer graphics would you please give explanation btw what the difference between occluded surface and opaque surface thanks advance yeh usc
comp.graphics	what giinn names nerdc ufl edu lioness maple circa ufl edu writes someone please fill what thanks there review the latest wired magazine you may just want take trip the local bookstore and check out there some cool pics too haven read yet tell you more aaron hightower
comp.graphics	oak vga please needd vesa tsr simple look for vesa drivers vpic package many svga card supported look for your favorite bbs not tonight honey just received nuvotel prxfalken email teaser com pascal guillaumet teaser issy les moulineaux france
comp.graphics	jpeg image compression frequently asked questions archive name jpeg faq last modified may this faq article discusses jpeg image compression suggestions for additions and clarifications are welcome new since version april new version supports bit viewing for windows new versions dvpeg image alchemy for dos new versions image archiver pmview for new listing mgif for monochrome display ataris this article includes the following sections what jpeg why use jpeg when should use jpeg and when should stick with gif how well does jpeg compress images what are good quality settings for jpeg where can get jpeg software canned software viewers etc source code what all this hoopla about color quantization how does jpeg work what about lossless jpeg why all the argument about file formats how recognize which file format have and what about what about arithmetic coding does loss accumulate with repeated compression decompression what are some rules thumb for converting gif images jpeg sections are basic info that every jpeg user needs know sections are advanced info for the curious this article posted every weeks you can always find the latest version the news answers archive rtfm mit edu ftp fetch pub usenet news answers jpeg faq you don have ftp send mail mail server rtfm mit edu with body send usenet news answers jpeg faq many other faq articles are also stored this archive for more instructions use the archive send mail the same address with the words help and index quotes separate lines you don get reply the server may misreading your return address add line such path myname mysite specify your correct mail address reply what jpeg jpeg pronounced jay peg standardized image compression mechanism jpeg stands for joint photographic experts group the original name the committee that wrote the standard jpeg designed for compressing either full color gray scale digital images natural real world scenes does not work well non realistic images such cartoons line drawings jpeg does not handle black and white bit per pixel images nor does handle motion picture compression standards for compressing those types images are being worked other committees named jbig and mpeg respectively jpeg lossy meaning that the image you get out decompression isn quite identical what you originally put the algorithm achieves much its compression exploiting known limitations the human eye notably the fact that small color details aren perceived well small details light and dark thus jpeg intended for compressing images that will looked humans you plan machine analyze your images the small errors introduced jpeg may problem for you even they are invisible the eye useful property jpeg that the degree lossiness can varied adjusting compression parameters this means that the image maker can trade off file size against output image quality you can make extremely small files you don mind poor quality this useful for indexing image archives making thumbnail views icons etc etc conversely you aren happy with the output quality the default compression setting you can jack the quality until you are satisfied and accept lesser compression why use jpeg there are two good reasons make your image files smaller and store bit per pixel color data instead bit per pixel data making image files smaller big win for transmitting files across networks and for archiving libraries images being able compress mbyte full color file down kbytes makes big difference disk space and transmission time you are comparing gif and jpeg the size ratio more like four one more details below your viewing software doesn support jpeg directly you have convert jpeg some other format for viewing manipulating images even with jpeg capable viewer takes longer decode and view jpeg image than view image simpler format gif for instance thus using jpeg essentially time space tradeoff you give some time order store transmit image more cheaply worth noting that when network phone transmission involved the time savings from transferring shorter file can much greater than the extra time decompress the file let you the arithmetic yourself the other reason why jpeg will gradually replace gif standard usenet posting format that jpeg can store full color information bits pixel million colors instead less fewer colors you have only bit display hardware then this may not seem like much advantage you within couple years though bit gif will look obsolete black and white macpaint format does today furthermore for reasons detailed section jpeg far more useful than gif for exchanging images among people with widely varying color display hardware hence jpeg considerably more appropriate than gif for use usenet posting standard when should use jpeg and when should stick with gif jpeg not going displace gif entirely for some types images gif superior image quality file size both one the first things learn about jpeg which kinds images apply rule thumb jpeg superior gif for storing full color gray scale images realistic scenes that means scanned photographs and similar material jpeg superior even you don have bit display hardware and lot superior you see section for details gif does significantly better images with only few distinct colors such cartoons and line drawings particular large areas pixels that are all exactly the same color are compressed very efficiently indeed gif jpeg can squeeze these files much gif does without introducing visible defects this sort image best kept gif form particular single color borders are quite cheap gif files but they should avoided jpeg files jpeg also has hard time with very sharp edges row pure black pixels adjacent row pure white pixels for example sharp edges tend come out blurred unless you use very high quality setting again this sort thing not found scanned photographs but shows fairly often gif files borders overlaid text etc the blurriness particularly objectionable with text that only few pixels high you have gif with lot small size overlaid text don jpeg computer drawn images ray traced scenes for instance usually fall between scanned images and cartoons terms complexity the more complex and subtly rendered the image the more likely that jpeg will well the same goes for semi realistic artwork fantasy drawings and such plain black and white two level images should never converted jpeg you need least about gray levels before jpeg useful for gray scale images should also noted that gif lossless for gray scale images levels while jpeg not you have existing library gif images you may wonder whether you should convert them jpeg you will lose little image quality you section which argues that jpeg image quality superior gif only applies both formats start from full color original you start from gif you already irretrievably lost great deal information jpeg can only make things worse however the disk space savings may justify converting anyway this decision you have make for yourself you convert gif library jpeg see section for hints prepared leave some images gif format since some gifs will not convert well how well does jpeg compress images pretty darn well here are some sample file sizes for image have handy full color image ship harbor the first three files are for comparison purposes the rest were created with the free jpeg software described section file size bytes comments ship ppm original file ppm format compression bits bytes per pixel plus few bytes overhead ship ppm ppm file passed through unix compress compress doesn accomplish lot you note other text oriented compressors give similar results ship gif converted gif with ppmquant ppmtogif most the savings the result losing color info gif saves bits pixel not see sec ship jpg cjpeg highest useful quality setting this indistinguishable from the bit original least nonprofessional eyeballs ship jpg cjpeg default setting you have look mighty darn close distinguish this from the original even with both screen once ship jpg cjpeg this has slight defects you know what look for you could tell been jpeged without seeing the original still good image quality many recent postings usenet pictures groups ship jpg cjpeg jpeg characteristic blockiness becomes apparent this setting djpeg blocksmooth helps some still seen plenty usenet postings that were poorer image quality than this ship jpg cjpeg optimize optimize cuts table overhead blocky but perfectly satisfactory for preview indexing purposes note that this file tiny the compression ratio from the original this case jpeg can make file that factor four five smaller than gif comparable quality the file every bit good the gif better you have full color display this seems typical ratio for real world scenes what are good quality settings for jpeg most jpeg compressors let you pick file size image quality tradeoff selecting quality setting there seems widespread confusion about the meaning these settings quality does not mean keep the information some have claimed the quality scale purely arbitrary not percentage anything the name the game using jpeg pick the lowest quality setting smallest file size that decompresses into image indistinguishable from the original this setting will vary from one image another and from one observer another but here are some rules thumb the default quality setting very often the best choice this setting about the lowest you can without expecting see defects typical image try first you see defects then except for experimental purposes never above saying will produce file two three times large but hardly any better quality the image was less than perfect quality begin with you might able down without objectionable degradation the other hand you might need higher quality setting avoid further degradation the second case seems apply much the time when converting gifs jpeg the default about right for compressing bit images but usually better for converting gifs see section for more info you want very small file say for preview indexing purposes and are prepared tolerate large defects setting the range about right may amusing art note the quality settings discussed this article apply the free jpeg software described section and many programs based other jpeg implementations such image alchemy may use completely different quality scale some programs don even provide numeric scale just high medium low style choices where can get jpeg software most the programs described this section are available ftp you don know how use ftp see the faq article how find sources you don have direct access ftp read about ftpmail servers the same article that article appears regularly news answers you can get sending mail mail server rtfm mit edu with send usenet news answers finding sources the body the anonymous ftp list faq may also helpful usenet news answers ftp list faq the news answers archive note this list changes constantly you have copy more than couple months old get the latest jpeg faq from the news answers archive you are looking for canned software viewers etc the first part this list system specific programs that only run one kind system you don see what you want for your machine check out the portable jpeg software described the end the list note that this list concentrates free and shareware programs that you can obtain over internet but some commercial programs are listed too windows shareware excellent viewer for jpeg gif and many other image formats can also format conversion and some simple image manipulations available for ftp from export lcs mit edu file contrib tar version major upgrade with support for bit displays and many other improvements however brand new and still has some bugs lurking you prefer not the bleeding edge stick with version also available from export note that version not good choice you have bit display you get only bit color nor for converting bit images jpeg but works fine for converting gif and other bit images jpeg caution there glitch version sure check the save normal size checkbox when saving jpeg file the file will blurry another good choice for windows john cristy free imagemagick package also available from export lcs mit edu file contrib imagemagick tar this package handles many image processing and conversion tasks the imagemagick viewer handles bit displays correctly for colormapped displays does better though slower color quantization than the basic free jpeg software both the above are large complex packages you just want simple image viewer try xloadimage xli xloadimage supports jpeg its latest release xloadimage free and available from export lcs mit edu file contrib xloadimage tar xli variant version xloadimage said its fans somewhat faster and more robust than the original the current xli indeed faster and more robust than the current xloadimage least with respect jpeg files because has the ijg decoder while xloadimage using hacked over the next xloadimage release will fix this xli also free and available from export lcs mit edu file contrib xli tar both programs are said the right thing with bit displays dos this covers plain dos for windows programs see the next headings one good choice eric praetzel free dvpeg which views jpeg and gif files the current version available ftp from sunee uwaterloo file pub jpeg viewers dvpeg zip this good basic viewer that works either machines the user interface not flashy but functional another freeware jpeg gif tga viewer mohammad rezaei hiview the current version available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics zip hiview requires better cpu and vcpi compatible memory manager qemm and max work windows and not hiview currently the fastest viewer for images that are bigger than your screen for larger images scales the image down fit the screen rather than using panning scrolling most viewers you may may not prefer this approach but there denying that slows down loading large images considerably note installation bit tricky read the directions carefully shareware alternative colorview for dos this easier install than either the two freeware alternatives its user interface also much spiffier looking although personally find harder use more keystrokes inconsistent behavior faster than dvpeg but little slower than hiview least hardware for images larger than screen size dvpeg and colorview seem about the same speed and both are faster than hiview the current version available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics dcview zip requires vesa graphics driver you don have one look vesadrv zip vesa tsr zip from the same directory many recent pcs have built vesa driver don try load vesa driver unless colorview complains that the driver missing second shareware alternative fullview which has been kicking around the net for while but don know any stable archive location for the current rather old version inferior the above viewers anyway the author tells that new version fullview will out shortly and will submitted the simtel archives that time the well known gif viewer compushow cshow supports jpeg its latest revision however cshow jpeg implementation isn very good slow about half the speed the above viewers and image quality poor except color displays too bad have been nice see good jpeg capability cshow shareware available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos gif cshw zip due the remarkable variety graphics hardware any one these viewers might not work your particular machine you can get any them work you need use one the following conversion programs convert jpeg gif then view with your favorite gif viewer you have color hardware don use gif the intermediate format try find targa capable viewer instead vpic reputed the right thing with color displays the independent jpeg group free jpeg converters are ftpable from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics jpeg zip jpeg zip you have and extended memory these files are dos compilations the free source code described section they will convert jpeg and from gif targa and ppm formats handmade software offers free jpeg gif conversion tools gif jpg jpg gif these are slow and are limited conversion and from gif format particular you can get bit color output from jpeg the major advantage these tools that they will read and write hsi proprietary jpeg format well the usenet standard jfif format since hsi format files are rather widespread bbses this useful capability version these tools free prior versions were shareware get from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics gif jpg zip note not use hsi format for files posted internet since not readable non platforms handmade software also has shareware image conversion and manipulation package image alchemy this will translate jpeg files both jfif and hsi formats and from many other image formats can also display images demo version image alchemy version available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics alch zip note about simtel the internet key archive site for related programs simtel full name wsmr simtel army mil simtel runs non unix system with weird directory names where this document refers directory msdos graphics simtel that really means msdos graphics you are not physically milnet you should expect rather slow ftp transfer rates from simtel there are several internet sites that maintain copies mirrors the simtel archives most ftp users should one the mirror sites instead popular usa mirror site oak oakland edu which keeps simtel files pub msdos graphics you have ftp capability you can retrieve files from simtel mail see informational postings comp archives msdos announce find out how you are outside the usa consult the same newsgroup learn where your nearest simtel mirror microsoft windows there are several windows programs capable displaying jpeg images windows viewers are generally slower than dos viewers the same hardware due windows system overhead note that you can run the dos conversion programs described above inside windows dos window the newest entry winecj which free and extremely fast version available from ftp rahul net file pub bryanw jpeg wecj zip requires windows and more colors mode this frills viewer with the bad habit hogging the machine completely while decodes and the image quality noticeably worse than other viewers but fast you use anyway least for previewing jview freeware fairly fast has good line help and can write out the decompressed image windows bmp format but can create new jpeg files and doesn view gifs jview also lacks some other useful features the shareware viewers such brightness adjustment but excellent basic viewer the current version available from ftp cica indiana edu file pub win desktop jview zip mirrors this archive can found some other internet sites including wuarchive wustl edu winjpeg shareware displays jpeg gif targa tiff and bmp image files can write all these formats too can used converter has some other nifty features including color balance adjustment and slideshow the current version available from simtel and mirror sites see note above file msdos windows winjp zip this slow compatible version you register you get the only version which roughly faster colorview another shareware entry this was early and promising contender but has not been updated some time and this point has real advantages over winjpeg you want try anyway the current version available from ftp cica indiana edu file pub win desktop cview zip understand that new version will appearing once the authors are finished with colorview for dos dvpeg see dos heading also works under windows but only full screen mode not window the following files are available from hobbes nmsu edu note check pub uploads for more recent versions the hobbes moderator not very fast about moving uploads into their permanent directories pub graphics jpegv zip bit version free ijg conversion programs version pub all graphics jpeg zip bit version same for pub graphics imgarc zip image archiver image conversion viewing with graphical interface strong conversion functions viewing bit weaker shareware pub graphics pmjpeg zip pmjpeg port winjpeg popular viewer for windows see description windows section shareware pub graphics pmview zip pmview jpeg gif bmp viewer gif viewing very fast jpeg viewing fast you have huge amounts ram otherwise about the same speed the above programs strong bit display support shareware macintosh most mac jpeg programs rely apple jpeg implementation which part the quicktime system extension you need have quicktime installed use quicktime you need better cpu and you need running system later you running system you must also install the bit quickdraw extension this built system you can get quicktime ftp from ftp apple com file dts mac quicktime quicktime hqx this file contains quicktime which better than several ways with respect jpeg marginally faster and considerably less prone crash when fed corrupt jpeg file however some applications seem have compatibility problems with mac users should keep mind that quicktime jpeg format pict jpeg not the same the usenet standard jfif jpeg format see section for details you post images usenet make sure they are jfif format most the programs mentioned below can generate either format the first choice probably jpegview free program for viewing images that are jfif format pict jpeg format gif format also can convert between the two jpeg formats the current version big improvement over prior versions get from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac app jpeg view hqx requires system and quicktime bit displays jpegview usually produces the best color image quality all the currently available mac jpeg viewers jpegview can view large images much less memory than other mac viewers fact the only one that can deal with jpeg images much over pixels typical mac given large image jpegview automatically scales down fit the screen rather than presenting scroll bars like most other viewers you can zoom any desired portion though some people like this behavior some don overall jpegview user interface very well thought out gifconverter shareware image viewer converter supports jfif and pict jpeg well gif and several other image formats the latest version get from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac art gif gif converter hqx requires system later gifconverter not better than jpegview plain jpeg gif viewer but has much more extensive image manipulation and format conversion capabilities you may find worth its shareware fee you lot playing around with images also the newest version gifconverter can load and save jfif images without quicktime your best bet your machine too old run quicktime but faster with quicktime note gifconverter runs out memory trying load large jpeg try converting the file gif with jpeg convert then viewing the gif version jpeg convert mac version the free ijg jpeg conversion utilities available from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac app jpeg convert hqx this will run any mac but only does file conversion not viewing you can use conjunction with any gif viewer previous versions this faq recommended imagery jpeg jpeg gif converter based old version the ijg code you are using this program you definitely should replace with jpeg convert apple free program pictpixie can view images jfif quicktime jpeg and gif format and can convert between these formats you can get pictpixie from ftp apple com file dts mac quicktime stuff pictpixie hqx requires quicktime pictpixie was intended developer tool and really not the best choice unless you like fool around with quicktime some its drawbacks are that requires lots memory produces relatively poor color image quality anything less than bit display and has relatively unfriendly user interface worse pictpixie unsupported program meaning has some minor bugs that apple does not intend fix there old version pictpixie called pictcompressor floating around the net you have this you should trash even buggier also the quicktime starter kit includes much cleaned descendant pictpixie called picture compressor note that picture compressor not free and may not distributed the net storm technology picture decompress free jpeg viewer converter this rather old program inferior the above programs many ways but will run without system quicktime you may forced use older systems does need bit quickdraw really old machines can use you can get from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac app picture decompress hqx you must set the file type downloaded image file jpeg allow picture decompress open your machine too old run bit quickdraw mac plus for instance gifconverter your only choice for single program jpeg viewing you don want pay for gifconverter use jpeg convert and free gif viewer more and more commercial mac applications are supporting jpeg although not all can deal with the usenet standard jfif format adobe photoshop version later can read and write jfif format jpeg files use the jpeg plug from the acquire menu you must set the file type downloaded jpeg file jpeg allow photoshop recognize amiga most programs listed this section are stored the aminet archive amiga physik unizh there are many mirror sites this archive and you should try use the closest one the usa good choice wuarchive wustl edu look under mirrors amiga physik unizh hamlab plus excellent jpeg viewer converter well being general image manipulation tool cheap shareware and can read several formats besides jpeg the current version demo version available from amiga physik unizh and mirror sites file amiga gfx edit hamlab lha the demo version will crop images larger than but otherwise fully functional rend shareware image renderer that can display jpeg ilbm and gif images the program can used create animations even capturing frames the fly from rendering packages like lightwave the current version available from amiga physik unizh and mirror sites file amiga gfx rend lha note although this directory supposedly for amigados programs the program will also run under amigados viewtek free jpeg ilbm gif anim viewer the current version available from amiga physik unizh and mirror sites file amiga gfx show viewtek lha you willing spend real money there are several commercial packages that support jpeg two are written thomas krehbiel the author rend and viewtek these are cinemorph standalone image morphing package and imagefx impressive bit image capture conversion editing painting effects and prepress package that also includes cinemorph both are distributed great valley products art department professional adpro from asdg inc the most widely used commercial image manipulation software for amigas imagemaster from black belt systems another well regarded commercial graphics package with jpeg support the free ijg jpeg software available compiled for amigas from amiga physik unizh and mirror sites directory amiga gfx conv file amigajpegv lha these programs convert jpeg from ppm gif targa formats the amiga world heavily infested with quick and dirty jpeg programs many based ancient beta test version the free ijg jpeg software thanks certain magazine that published same its disk the month without much notifying the authors among these are augjpeg newamyjpeg vjpeg and probably others have not even heard opinion anything older than ijg version march not worth the disk space stored you have such program trash and get something newer atari the free ijg jpeg software available compiled for atari etc from atari archive umich edu file atari graphics jpeg bin zoo these programs convert jpeg from ppm gif targa formats for monochrome monitors try mgif which manages achieve four level grayscale effect flickering version reads jpeg files available from atari archive umich edu file atari graphics mgif zoo have not heard any other free shareware jpeg capable viewers for ataris but surely there must some now pointers appreciated acorn archimedes changefsi supplied with risc version can convert from and view jpeg jfif format provision also made convert images jpeg although this must done from the cli rather than double clicking recent versions since the shareware program translator can handle jpeg along with about other image formats while older versions can found some archimedes bboards the current version only available registering with the author john kortink nutterbrink enschede the netherlands price dutch guilders about pounds there also commercial product called jpeg which provides jpeg read write functionality and direct jpeg viewing well host other image format conversion and processing options this more expensive but not necessarily better than the above programs contact software freepost cambridge tel portable software for almost any system none the above fits your situation you can obtain and compile the free jpeg conversion software described you also need viewer program your display bits less any gif viewer will fine you have display with more color capability try find viewer that can read targa ppm bit image files there are numerous commercial jpeg offerings with more popping every day recommend that you not spend money one these unless you find the available free shareware software vastly too slow that case purchase hardware assisted product ask pointed questions about whether the product complies with the final jpeg standard and about whether can handle the jfif file format many the earliest commercial releases are not and never will compatible with anyone else files you are looking for source code work with free portable code for jpeg compression available from the independent jpeg group which lead package containing our source code documentation and some small test files available from several places the official archive site for this source code ftp net look under directory graphics jpeg the current release jpegsrc tar this compressed tar file don forget retrieve binary mode you can retrieve this file ftp uucp you are and don know how cope with tar format you may prefer zip format which you can find simtel and mirror sites see note above file msdos graphics jpegsrc zip this file will also available compuserve the graphsupport forum pics library jpsrc zip you have ftp access you can retrieve the source from your nearest comp sources misc archive version appeared issues volume you don know how retrieve comp sources misc postings see the faq article how find sources referred the top section the free jpeg code provides conversion between jpeg jfif format and image files gif pbmplus ppm pgm utah rle and truevision targa file formats the core compression and decompression modules can easily reused other programs such image viewers the package highly portable have tested many machines ranging from pcs crays have released this software for both noncommercial and commercial use companies are welcome use the basis for jpeg related products not ask royalty although ask for acknowledgement product literature see the readme file the distribution for details hope make this software industrial quality although with anything that free offer warranty and accept liability the independent jpeg group volunteer organization you like contribute improving our software you are welcome join what all this hoopla about color quantization most people don have full color bit per pixel display hardware typical display hardware stores fewer bits per pixel can display fewer distinct colors time display full color image the computer must map the image into appropriate set representative colors this process called color quantization this something misnomer color selection would better term stuck with the standard usage though clearly color quantization lossy process turns out that for most images the details the color quantization algorithm have much more impact the final image quality than any errors introduced jpeg except the very lowest jpeg quality settings since jpeg full color format converting color jpeg image for display bit less hardware requires color quantization this true for all color jpegs even you feed less color gif into jpeg what comes out the decompressor not colors but thousands colors this happens because jpeg lossiness affects each pixel little differently two pixels that started with identical colors will probably come out with slightly different colors each original color gets smeared into group nearby colors therefore quantization always required display color jpeg colormapped display regardless the image source the only way avoid quantization ask for gray scale output incidentally because this effect nearly meaningless talk about the number colors used jpeg image even you attempted count the number distinct pixel values different jpeg decoders would give you different results because roundoff error differences occasionally see posted images described color jpeg this tells that the poster hasn read this faq and probably converted the jpeg from gif jpegs can classified color gray scale just like photographs but number colors just isn useful concept for jpeg the other hand gif image definition has already been quantized fewer colors gif does have definite number colors its palette and the format doesn allow more than palette entries for purposes usenet picture distribution gif has the advantage that the sender precomputes the color quantization recipients don have this also the disadvantage gif you stuck with the sender quantization the sender quantized different number colors than what you can display you have quantize resulting much poorer image quality than you had quantized once from full color image furthermore the sender didn use high quality color quantization algorithm you out luck for this reason jpeg offers the promise significantly better image quality for all users whose machines don match the sender display hardware jpeg full color image can quantized precisely match the user display hardware furthermore you will able take advantage future improvements quantization algorithms there lot active research this area purchase better display hardware get better view jpeg images you already have with gif you stuck forevermore with what was sent also worth mentioning that many gif viewing programs include rather shoddy quantization routines you view color gif color ega display for example you are probably getting much worse image than you need this partly inevitable consequence doing two color quantizations one create the gif one display but often also due sloppiness jpeg conversion programs will forced use high quality quantizers order get acceptable results all and normal use they will quantize directly the number colors displayed thus jpeg likely provide better results than the average gif program for low color resolution displays well high resolution ones finally ever growing number people have better than bit display hardware already bit color displays true bit displays workstations and macintoshes etc for these people gif already obsolete cannot represent image the full capabilities their display jpeg images can drive these displays much more effectively thus jpeg all around better choice than gif for representing images machine independent fashion how does jpeg work the buzz words know are chrominance subsampling discrete cosine transforms coefficient quantization and huffman arithmetic entropy coding this article long enough already not going say more than that here for technical information see the comp compression faq this available from the news answers archive rtfm mit edu files pub usenet news answers compression faq part you need help using the news answers archive see the top this article what about lossless jpeg there great deal confusion this subject the jpeg committee did define truly lossless compression algorithm one that guarantees the final output bit for bit identical the original input however this lossless mode has almost nothing common with the regular lossy jpeg algorithm and offers much less compression present very few implementations lossless jpeg exist and all them are commercial saying the free jpeg software does not get you lossless image what does get rid deliberate information loss the coefficient quantization step there still good deal information loss the color subsampling step with the free jpeg code you can also say sample turn off subsampling keep mind that many commercial jpeg implementations cannot cope with the resulting file even with both quantization and subsampling turned off the regular jpeg algorithm not lossless because subject roundoff errors various calculations the maximum error few counts any one pixel value highly unlikely that this could perceived the human eye but might concern you are doing machine processing image this minimum loss setting regular jpeg produces files that are perhaps half the size uncompressed bit per pixel image true lossless jpeg provides roughly the same amount compression but guarantees bit for bit accuracy you have application requiring lossless storage images with less than bits per pixel per color component you may want look into the jbig bilevel image compression standard this performs better than jpeg lossless such images jpeg lossless superior jbig images with more bits per pixel furthermore jpeg public domain least with huffman back end while the jbig techniques are heavily covered patents why all the argument about file formats strictly speaking jpeg refers only family compression algorithms does not refer specific image file format the jpeg committee was prevented from defining file format turf wars within the international standards organizations since can actually exchange images with anyone else unless agree common file format this leaves with problem the absence official standards number jpeg program writers have just gone off their own thing and result their programs aren compatible with anybody else the closest thing have facto standard jpeg format some work that been coordinated people cube microsystems they have defined two jpeg based file formats jfif jpeg file interchange format low end format that transports pixels and not much else tiff jpeg aka tiff extension the aldus tiff format tiff high end format that will let you record just about everything you ever wanted know about image and lot more besides tiff lot more complex than jfif and may well prove less transportable because different vendors have historically implemented slightly different and incompatible subsets tiff not likely that adding jpeg the mix will anything improve this situation both these formats were developed with input from all the major vendors jpeg related products reasonably likely that future commercial products will adhere one both standards believe that usenet should adopt jfif the replacement for gif picture postings jfif simpler than tiff and available now the tiff spec has only recently been officially adopted and still unusably vague some crucial details even when tiff jpeg well defined the jfif format likely widely supported lowest common denominator tiff jpeg files may never transportable particular case that people may interested apple quicktime software for the macintosh quicktime uses jfif compatible format wrapped inside the mac specific pict structure conversion between jfif and quicktime jpeg pretty straightforward and several mac programs are available see mac portion section you have editor that handles binary files you can strip quicktime jpeg pict down jfif hand see section for details another particular case handmade software programs gif jpg jpg gif and image alchemy these programs are capable reading and writing jfif format default though they write proprietary format developed hsi this format not readable any non hsi programs and should not used for usenet postings use the switch get jfif output this applies old versions these programs the current releases emit jfif format default you still should careful not post hsi format files unless you want get flamed people non platforms how recognize which file format have and what about you have alleged jpeg file that your software won read likely hsi format some other proprietary jpeg based format you can tell what you have inspecting the first few bytes the file jfif standard file will start with the characters hex followed two variable bytes often hex followed jfif you see the start but not the rest you may have raw jpeg file this probably decodable jfif software worth try anyway hsi files start with hsi you out luck unless you have hsi software portions the file may look like plain jpeg data but they won decompress properly with non hsi programs macintosh pict file jpeg compressed will have couple hundred bytes header followed jfif header scan for jfif strip off everything before the and you should able read anything else proprietary format not jpeg all you are lucky the file may consist header and raw jpeg data stream you can identify the start the jpeg data stream look for try stripping off everything before that uuencoded usenet postings the characteristic jfif pattern begin line whereas uuencoded hsi files will start with begin line you learn check for the former you can save yourself the trouble downloading non jfif files what about arithmetic coding the jpeg spec defines two different back end modules for the final output compressed data either huffman coding arithmetic coding allowed the choice has impact image quality but arithmetic coding usually produces smaller compressed file typical images arithmetic coding produces file percent smaller than huffman coding all the file size numbers previously cited are for huffman coding unfortunately the particular variant arithmetic coding specified the jpeg standard subject patents owned ibm and mitsubishi thus you cannot legally use arithmetic coding unless you obtain licenses from these companies the fair use doctrine allows people implement and test the algorithm but actually storing any images with dubious best least the short run recommend that people not worry about arithmetic coding the space savings isn great enough justify the potential legal hassles particular arithmetic coding should not used for any images exchanged usenet there some small chance that the legal situation may change the future stay tuned for further details does loss accumulate with repeated compression decompression would nice having compressed image with jpeg you could decompress manipulate crop off border say and recompress without any further image degradation beyond what you lost initially unfortunately this not the case general recompressing altered image loses more information though usually not much was lost the first time around the next best thing would that you decompress image and recompress without changing then there further loss you get identical jpeg file even this not true least not with the current free jpeg software essentially problem accumulation roundoff error you repeatedly compress and decompress the image will eventually degrade where you can see visible changes from the first generation output usually takes many such cycles get visible change one the things our list see accumulation error can avoided limited but not optimistic about any case the most that could possibly guaranteed would that compressing the unmodified full color output djpeg the original quality setting would introduce further loss even such simple changes cropping off border could cause further roundoff error degradation you wondering why because the pixel block boundaries move you cropped off only multiples pixels you might safe but that mighty limited capability the bottom line that jpeg useful format for archival storage and transmission images but you don want use intermediate format for sequences image manipulation steps use lossless format ppm rle tiff etc while working the image then jpeg when you are ready file away aside from avoiding degradation you will save lot compression decompression time this way what are some rules thumb for converting gif images jpeg stated earlier you will lose some amount image information you convert existing gif image jpeg you can obtain the original full color data the gif was made from far better make jpeg from that but you need save space and have only the gif work from here are some suggestions for getting maximum space savings with minimum loss quality the first rule when converting gif library look each jpeg make sure you are happy with before throwing away the corresponding gif that will give you chance the conversion with higher quality setting necessary some gifs may better left gifs explained section particular cartoon type gifs with sixteen fewer colors don convert well you may find that jpeg file reasonable quality will larger than the gif check the sizes too experience date suggests that large high visual quality gifs are the best candidates for conversion jpeg they chew the most storage offer the most potential savings and they convert jpeg with least degradation don waste your time converting any gif much under kbytes also don expect jpeg files converted from gifs small those created directly from full color originals maintain image quality you may have let the converted files much twice big straight through jpeg files would shoot for the size the gif file not suggested earlier comparisons many people have developed odd habit putting large constant color border around gif image while useless this was nearly free terms storage cost gif files not free jpeg files and the sharp border boundary can create visible artifacts ghost edges yourself favor and crop off any border before jpeging you are windows system manual and automatic cropping functions are very painless way this cjpeg default setting appropriate for full color input but for gif inputs settings often seem necessary avoid image degradation you apply smoothing suggested below the higher setting may not necessary color gifs photographs complex artwork are usually dithered fool your eye into seeing more than the colors that gif can actually store you enlarge the image you will see that adjacent pixels are often significantly different colors normal size the eye averages these pixels together produce the illusion intermediate color value the trouble with dithering that jpeg looks like high spatial frequency color noise and jpeg can compress noise very well the resulting jpeg file both larger and lower image quality than what you would have gotten from jpeging the original full color image you had get around this you want smooth the gif image before compression smoothing averages together nearby pixels thus approximating the color that you thought you saw anyway and the process getting rid the rapid color changes that give jpeg trouble appropriate use smoothing will often let you avoid using high factor thus further reducing the size the compressed file while still obtaining better looking output image than you get without smoothing with the free jpeg software products based simple smoothing capability built try smooth when converting gifs values seem work well for high quality gifs heavy handed dithering may require larger smoothing factors you can see regular fine scale patterns the gif image even without enlargement then strong smoothing definitely called for too large smoothing factor will blur the output image which you don want you are image processing wizard you can also smoothing with separate filtering program such pnmconvol from the pbmplus package however cjpeg built smoother lot faster than pnmconvol the upshot all this that cjpeg quality smooth probably good starting point for converting gifs but you really care about the image you want check the results and maybe try few other settings for more information about jpeg general the free jpeg software particular contact the independent jpeg group jpeg info uunet net tom lane organizer independent jpeg group internet tgl cmu edu bitnet tgl cmu edu carnegie
comp.graphics	where did the hacker ethic kendall opusii sears krsear ulkyvx louisville edu wrote the biggest killer imo one dreams are sadly shattered the hard rocks society version reality without the dream the motivation dies without the motivation the effort seems useless actually there are more possibilities one that with practice the hacker has become good and powerful manipulating data streams that goes simply underground possessing true power perhaps there need impress anyone with grady netcom com
comp.graphics	adobe photo shop type software for unix motif platforms appsoft image available for nextstep image processing program similar adobe photoshop reviewed the april issue publish magazine richardt
comp.graphics	adobe photo shop type software for unix motif platforms charles boesel writes article world std com sci image processing comp graphics wdm world std com wayne michael writes have been searching for quality image enhancement and manipulation package for unix motif platforms that comparable adobe photo shop for the mac stuff deleted understand that adobe working making photoshop available for the sgi indigo but that just rumor and wouldn bet until see but they are going release illustrator for the sgi real soon now illustrator for sgi shipping product adobe and sgi have announced that photoshop being ported sgi machines simillar announcement has been made adobe and sun for sun platforms dates have been announced the best knowledge zalman stern zalman adobe com adobe systems charleston pob mountain view just couple joyful little pervo goats akbar jeff
comp.graphics	where did the hacker ethic more cheerful note perhaps hackerism hacking isn completely dead someone else said take the gnu offerings for example free redistributable and often better than the commercial stuff take also the number papers published every year all the fields computer science the vast majority these papers detail original work real often exceptional merit and the authors are sharing this knowledge have fun roddi
comp.graphics	where did the hacker ethic think the main reason that the good old hacker days the young gates and jobs the world the computer was not widespread phenomenom now with the increased popularity the come plethora mundane business uses which required more practical minded and narrower focused programmers why hacker when you can get good job programming databases programs for accountants basically the yuppies caught and disciplined the hackers and molded them their own image carl christensen dept computer science christen astro ocis temple edu temple university curiouser and curiouser philadelphia usa
comp.graphics	wanted rendering lib for does any one know decent quality library routines for performing graphics modelling the ideally the routines would embeded our application program requirements wish list flat surface modelling simple phong shading optional ability plot hidden line drawings texture mapping both procedural and bit map modeling light sources local distant and spot lights ray tracing radiosity optional any comments would appreciated john chinnick jchinnic mach wlu phone john chinnick jchinnic mach wlu
comp.graphics	vesa driver for xga heard that there vesa driver for the xga card available compuserve just got this card and wondering this driver available ftp site anywhere news service has beeen erratic lately please mail walsh stolaf edu thanks advance
comp.graphics	help with world screen transfomation matrix need help creating perspective matrix like use this for transforming some texture mapping code got from graphics gems have many books which talk about this but none them simple plain english you have graphics gems talking about page like have perspective matrix that handles different field views and aspect course thank for your help yes course everything say personal opinion robert kyanko rob rjck oau org rob rjck uucp
comp.graphics	access bus access bus software creator contest intro access bus the access bus software creator contest announcement what access bus access bus new open industry standard for computer peripheral connectivity access bus serial protocol that uses simple low cost technology link multiple devices single port peripheral devices such keyboards keypads locators mice trackballs joysticks printers gloves digitizers sensors actuators data transmitters and others can easily daisy chained the host applications such cad cam data acquisition simulation virtual reality multiple player single games education and many many more can now take advantage access bus the technology that puts plug and play every the access bus offers advantages end users and developers systems and peripherals multiple devices connect the host computer with only one port common communication methods for number device types lead simplified hardware and software development open standard access bus enables cross platform use the same device access bus technological description access bus technology open specification enabling anyone implement host systems peripheral devices without fee royalty access bus has bus topology architecture that single host can accommodate peripheral devices access bus data rate kbits sec access bus physical layer access bus serial bus architecture based hardware protocol with one data line and one clock line standard low cost microcontrollers handle bit level handshaking including automatic arbitration and clock synchronization access bus software protocols the access bus communication protocol composed three levels protocol base protocol and application protocol protocol this simple and efficient protocol defines arbitration among contending masters without losing data provides for cooperative synchronization bus partners with different clock rates bus transactions include addressing framing bits into bytes and byte acknowledgment the receiver base protocol establishes the asymmetrical interconnect between host computer and multiple peripherals the host becomes the access bus manager the base protocol defines the format access bus message envelope which bus transaction with additional semantics including checksum unique features the base protocol are auto addressing and hot plugging auto addressing assigns devices with unique bus addresses without the need for setting jumpers switches hot plugging the ability attach and detach devices while the system running without rebooting application protocol this the highest level the access bus protocol which defines message semantics specific particular types devices each type requires different application protocol three broad device types have been identified keyboards locators and text devices access bus support the all three levels the access bus protocol are supported the add card implements the physical layer and uses the base protocol communicate with physical access bus devices access bus manager tsr under dos and dll under windows controls the operation the physical layer and interacts with the access bus device drivers drivers are available for multiple access bus keyboards locators and printers for dos and windows also available are language source code examples the interface from applications the device drivers contact abig the access bus industry group postal address altair way suite sunnyvale internet email abig netcom com fax voice
comp.graphics	call for papers for informatika vol this invitation send articles the informatica magazine the first fully international issue has been published and echoes are quite favourable for any information contact matjaz gams ijs dear colleague april number volume informatica now out print and some you will receive week you will see the journal structured the following way the editorial first page profiles second page biography editor this issue terry winograd the edited part papers mission and research reports plan for knowledge archives project japan and csli stanford and news and announcements this structure mentioned give you suggestion how could you help make the contents the journal significant diverse and interesting bringing your own views into the discourse great emphasis given the called editorial page this page expresses opinion belief the writing editor some problems within the scope computing and informatics extending into other concerning disciplines cybernetics advanced cognitive sciences mind informationally concerned neural sciences advanced technology photonics etc asked professor terry winograd write this page for number certainly would appreciate very much get suggestions possible offers from other editors who like express their strong directed beliefs concerning future development the area question the second page each number editor profile published the aim the profile twofold show his her professional achievements interests scientific and philosophical orientation one side narrate his her life story the environments which editors has lived and live the other side this kind story should instructive adequately factically faced contributing the understanding circumstances which editors have act and live the edited part edited papers still critical would like have stock accepted papers advance the issuing dates particular number can fixed january april july and october situation right now ask you help with contributions yours your colleagues collaborators students etc some critical views the contemporary development computing and informatics are appreciated special emphasis should given also originality which fresh ideas are coming into the circulation different professional communities reports different occasions symposia conferences meetings etc and particularly new books papers and interesting events are welcome you can send these news immediately also your secretary mail the other hand you can send books and other publications annual reports journals calls for papers etc for reviewing and publishing informatica the editorial staff will manage the rest mail functioning satisfactorily please use every respect you can submit editorial notes profiles reports news and even complete papers written standard latex format especially formulas received several final corrected texts number from different sites russia etc this way you can compose reports from already typed texts using your own choice and editing and submit them the contact person matjaz gams ijs who always being your disposal you will receive prompt confirmation and any information concerning our common interest and job the end please not forget need your cooperation and help every mentioned respect the aim informatica open various possibilities communication concerning strong scientific and philosophical orientations well those coming still unrevealed and the way become significant please not apprehend give proposals suggestions and certainly contributions via the mail and other means sincerely yours anton zeleznikar editor chief
comp.graphics	anti aliasing raytracing question article slb lbu mserv coulter daresbury writes everyone was woundering someone could answer simple query for raytracing and anti aliasing stuff deleted have similiar question relating anti alaising that friend has asked have posted the more knowledgable this group sorry this faq what anti alaising methods persistance vision polyray use thank you advance you can either email reply flame faq dwa
comp.graphics	need algorithm which decide whether point inside space defined planes hey looking for algorithm which decide whether point inside space which was defined points with space defined points mean space defined closed meshes defined points like this but this simple example the sides are parallel but problem the sides can non parallel and the opposite sides must not have the same size etc please mail your informations thanks for your great efforts oliver name kretzschmar inst ike university stuttgart phone pfaffenwaldring fax stuttgart email wnkretz ikesg energietechnik uni stuttgart
comp.graphics	help with world screen transfomation matrix article vnmv rjck uucp rob rjck uucp robert kyanko writes need help creating perspective matrix like use this for transforming some texture mapping code got from graphics gems have many books which talk about this but none them simple plain english you have graphics gems talking about page like have perspective matrix that handles different field views and aspect course thank for your help cos alpha horizontal sin alpha cos beta vertical sin beta far clipping value near clipping value matrix geir atle storhaug geir storhaug ffi phone office home
comp.graphics	graphics library for and sun are looking for source code which was developed silicon graphics sgi would like compile sun and there anyone already supporting and sun please respond also please respond anyone knows where the source code available thank you chandra sbi com jon sbi com
comp.graphics	svga hicolor johan conroy jconroy babel wrote have question about svga cards have tseng svga with memory and bit dacs far know display now can display bit pixel bit maps this card you can the least your hardware capable supporting this mode know nothing about your video bios though how silly but fool proof way install windows with colors wideo driver and display your pictures under windows cheese serge
comp.graphics	images can anyone around here point information regarding stereoscopic images believe saw some show room texas lone star illusions and they were amazing now heard that they were created with simple graphic program does anyone have any these images digitized really want find out much can thanks brian ccnext ucsf edu please reply this address
comp.graphics	compositing pictures was wondering anyone knows graphics package for the that will compositing series pictures what mean compositing say have live video clip digitized panning around living room and computer generated bird flying around the screen want combine these two series pictures that everywhere where the bird frames are black want the living room picture show through yes realize can this with genlock and own genlock but want able manual compositing also have composite one frame time assumed have that anyway but being able composite series frames would even better looked around and haven found package that will perform this help please
comp.graphics	compositing pictures article may torreypinesca ncr com chu torreypinesca ncr com patrick chu writes was wondering anyone knows graphics package for the that will compositing series pictures what mean compositing say have live video clip digitized panning around living room and computer generated bird flying around the screen want combine these two series pictures that everywhere where the bird frames are black want the living room picture show through yes realize can this with genlock and own genlock but want able manual compositing also have composite one frame time assumed have that anyway but being able composite series frames would even better looked around and haven found package that will perform this help please you can get the live animation and the computer generated animation into autodesk animator fli flc format autodesk animator will this for you can take one animation make certain color clear and overlay over another animation not have way right now convert avi mpg files animator files animator will also import series gif files create animation your video capture stuff can create this might work vance gloster gloster inference com
comp.graphics	tga viewer for ati ultra hello the subject line says all looking for tga file viewer for the ati ultra card should support the true color modes course someone knows where find one via ftp please let know thanx oliver klimek
comp.graphics	gamma correction can someone who knows what they talking about add faq entry gamma correction thanks mark
comp.graphics	where did the hacker ethic dorsai dorsai org crawls dorsai dorsai org charles rawls writes the hacker ethic alive and well here know what you speak and only answer screw you have what make you feel right amen too have learned example specifically yours what can say but keep the faith there are others who likewise but dorsai leads the way unlike other services that are commercial nature dorsai community based service while others charge monthly fees for access dorsai accepts donations from those who can afford contribute while other systems don respond user input dorsai thrives other systems sell hardware for profit dorsai donates hardware community service groups and individuals who couldn afford normally dorsai lives due the hacker ethic charles jack skip cara ira mark david etc etc etc sleepless nights and days working equipment thats been assembled the embassy and modifying what ever else available work the first time order keep the slip line heres you bud one the few that decided stay and damn glad that did carlos dominguez sys admin owner kibbitzer ooo ooo root carlos uucp uupsi jpradley carlos carlos ask about helldiver carlos carlos jpr com guaranteed address
comp.graphics	vga graphics library article mwca uucp bill mwca uucp bill sheppard writes many high end graphics cards come with source code for doing basic graphics sorts things change colors draw points lines polygons fills etc does such library exist for generic vga graphics cards chips hopefully the public domain this would for the purpose compiling under non dos operating system running standard check the server code for xfree daniel ortmann talmidim ndsu electrical engineering ortmann plains nodak edu shalom fargo north dakota
comp.graphics	autodesk bbs does autodesk has bbs
comp.graphics	siggraph online experimental publication available try ing publications may online siggraph org there rosalee
comp.graphics	pov animating attempt animation with pov have created two little programs one program that will perform morph between any two points given the amount frames for the morph and then will write the points and the function translate rotate etc out file then have perl script that will read the list functions and insert them into pov file given line had hoped this would let simple animation however have discovered that simply performing incremental rotations object will not spin stationary object but will actually rotate the object about the axis now know easy way around this would first translate the object the origin perform the rotation and then move back but know there must another way around this had thought perhaps was because had created objects the origin and then translated them new point and then done the rotation which could cause this behavior however this occurs objects that are not translated all any help appreciated ttknock bbs santafe edu
comp.graphics	gifs tek was skimming through few gophers and bumped into one nih with database that included images gif format while have not yet worked out the kinks getting the gopher client call viewer figure that the majority the users here are not environment instead using dos and kermit with kermit supporting tek emulation for graphics display does anyone know package that would allow tek display gif image would more use the local population plug something this sort the picture command instead xview xloadimage andrew brennan hal hahnemann edu
comp.graphics	products handle hdtv moving pircture sec kazsato twics writes like know there any system cpu array framebuffer which can play and record hdtv quality moving picture realtime hdtv has about frame recording playing moving picture will need about sec bandwidth thinking treat the raw data not compressed finding disk array that can sec will difficult the fastest ones know about are from maximum strategy ibm also sells these they can attach hippi sec bit for these kinds data rates you need more than scsi for connections their latest model the raid model gen only does sec but think this may limitation only the hippi channel and that customer needs have not exceeded that speed since their older model was faster they are also not idle must working newer products that might faster and are small company you might able ask about custom interfaces they still marketed the older faster model few mongths ago maximum strategy inc buckeye court milpitas sales maxstrat com you might still want look into compression will very difficult keep the hippi bus fully working all times sustained throughput might come close maximum burst rate interesting problem tell more you can anyone can advise what kind product should look into please mail will appriciate the vendor mail address price the products actual performance data the products any info will help thanks advance kaz sato tokyo japan mail kazsato twics dick wilmot editor independent raid report
comp.graphics	wanted mpeg description sources encoders decoders please help with mpeg description sources decoders encoders great thanks advance maximus origin mister postman bbs
comp.graphics	gif dstudio far simply mapping your logo whatever onto cube sphere quite easy just either copy the gif you want mapped into the map directory add map path the directory where currently then into the materials editor and make new material with that the bit map voila zippy cyberden the cyberden public access waffle usenet system
comp.graphics	where did the hacker ethic article may vxcrna cern filipe vxcrna cern vinci writes blah blah talking about hackers you know wow new proof for complete problem you guys eurpoe really got your stuff together base step deleted too bad inductive step but anyway poor golfers bad carpenters bad surgeons are not thieves your assertion that hacker thief unsupported your argument imho the narrower view that hacker when associated with the computing environment dishonest expert not widespread inductive hypothesis therefore conclude that you call yourself hacker and somebody perceives you thief then this person belongs very very small group that has some computer knowledge but not enough know the wider and original meaning the word course one can always know this and disregard nonetheless then equate hacker thief giving substance humpty assertion even though kind reverse way fodder step finally true hacker does not name himself herself one for this title that bestowed the befuddled sysadmins and users large sign truly great hacker introduced someone who says nahh just know thing two people always exagerate filipe santos english not first language plse forgetful mistakes like mother always said you can say something nice was that can say something right kxh this the signature file what you think
comp.graphics	pov tga having slight problem with the pov raytracer not sure this the correct group post not create tga files unix machine using pov then when download them display they listed bad files but when create the file displays fine are unix tga incompatible with the easy solution this problem would unix targa gif converter anyone know where could find one any help this subject appreciated kevin
comp.graphics	tex texture map format was avalon today and found texture maps some tex and txc format something never encountered before these are obviously not tex latex files you have clue how can convert these something reasonable please let know brian
comp.graphics	gamma correction article meinnrc gap caltech edu madler cco caltech edu mark adler writes can someone who knows what they talking about add faq entry gamma correction thanks get regular questions about gamma correction since great pains deal with properly xli the image loader program maintain here explanation often use answer these questions this might suitable for inclusion the faq graeme gill note gamma correction and images author graeme gill graeme labtam date what all this gamma stuff anyway although would nice think that image image there are lot complications not only are there whole bunch different image formats gif jpeg tiff etc etc there whole lot other technical stuff that makes dealing with images bit complicated gamma one those things you ever downloaded images from bbs the net you probably noticed with most image viewing programs that some images look some look too dark and some look too light why this you may ask this gamma correction the lack why need gamma correction all gamma correction needed because the nature crts cathode ray tubes the monitors usually used for viewing images you have some sort real live scene and turn into computer image measuring the amount light coming from each point the scene then you have created linear gamma corrected image this good thing many ways because you can manipulate the image the values the image file were light adding and multiplying will work just like real light the real world now you take the image file and turn each pixel value into voltage and feed into crt you find that the crt doesn give you amount light proportional the voltage the amount light coming from the phosphor the screen depends the the voltage something like this light out voltage crt gamma you just dump your nice linear image out crt the image will look much too dark fix this you have gamma correct the image first you need the opposite what the crt will the image that things cancel out and you get what you want you have this your image gamma corrected image image crt gamma for most crts the crt gamma somewhere between and that all why does seem complicated the problem that not all display programs gamma correction also not all sources images give you linear images video cameras video signals general because this lot images already have some gamma correction done them and you are rarely sure how much you try and display one those images with program that does gamma correction for you the image gets corrected twice and looks way light you display one those images with program that doesn gamma correction then will look vaguely right but not perfect because the gamma correction not exactly right for you particular crt whose fault all this really three things one all those display programs out there that don gamma correction properly another that most image formats don specify standard gamma don have some way recording what their gamma correction the third thing that not many people understand what gamma correction all about and create lot images with varying gamma least two file formats the right thing the utah graphics toolkit rle format has semi standard way recording the gamma image the jfif file standard that uses jpeg compression specifies that the image encoded must have gamma linear image but not everyone obeys the rules some image loaders for instance xli image utility allow you specify not only the gamma the monitor you are using but the individual gamma values image you are trying view other image viewers another image program and utilities the pbm toolkit provide ways changing the gamma image but you have figure out the overall gamma correction yourself allowing for undoing any gamma correction the image has and then the gamma correction you need suite your crt monitor note that doesn provide easy way modifying the gamma image you need adjust the and curves the appropriate gamma the coledit controls altering the intensity the hsv controls doesn the right thing fails take account the effect gamma has and this tends give tint the image how can figure out what viewer does what gamma screen has the simplest way that try loading the file chkgamma jpg provided with xli distribution which jfif jpeg format file containing two grayscale ramps the ramps are chosen look linear the human eye one using continuous tones and the other using dithering your viewer does the right thing and gamma corrects images then the two ramps should look symmetrical and the point which they look equally bright should almost exactly half way from the top the bottom find this point helps you move away little from the screen and focus your eyes bit your viewer doesn gamma correction then left hand ramp will have long dark part and short white part and the point equal brightness will above the center your viewer does have way setting the right amount gamma correction for display then the equal brightness point above center increase the gamma and decrease below the center the value will usually around with xli for instance you can adjust the display gamma with the dispgamma flag and once you got right you can set the display gamma environment variable your profile how figure out what the gamma image this the most tricky bit general rule seems that lot true color bit ppm jpg images have gamma linear although there are many about that have some gamma correction seems that the majority pseudo color images bit images with color maps gif etc are gamma corrected some degree other your viewer does gamma correction then linear images will look good and gamma corrected images will look too light your viewer doesn gamma correction then linear images will look too dark and gamma corrected images will why linear images are sometimes not such good thing one the reason that many high quality formats such video use gamma correction that actually makes better use the storage medium this because the human eye has logarithmic response light and gamma correction has similar compression characteristic this means images could make better use bits per color for instance they used gamma correction the implication though that every time you want any image processing you should convert the bit image linear bits retain the same accuracy since little popular software does this and none the popular image formats can agree standard gamma correction factor difficult justify gamma corrected images the popular level some image formats can standardize particular gamma and image manipulation software takes care use extra precision when dealing with linearized internal data then gamma corrected distribution images would good thing told that the kodak photocd format for instance has standard gamma correction factor that enables get the highest quality out the bits used hold the image
comp.graphics	help rectangle and parallelogram hope someone can help with the following problem sure there must known solution given rectangle defined and where and are constant and parallelogram defined and where are constants and not parallel lines not equal what the area their intersection what after some general algorithm suitable for all rectangles and parallelograms that can described the above equations the moment looks like going have look all possible cases and examine each seperately rectangle encloses parallelogram parallelogram encloses rectangle two corners parallelogram inside rectangle origin two corners parallelogram outside rectangle hope someone can help many thanks advance dave nettleton mail nettleton durham can you please any replies mail
comp.graphics	pict epsf etc map italy article chunter umab bitnet chunter umab bitnet writes does anybody know where can get graphic mac pict epsf tiff gif whatever italy looking for picture map italy even just the map italy showing the states provinces the freehand for windows clip art collection corel draw clip art has outline map italy jim powlesland internet powlesla acs ucalgary academic computing services voice university calgary message calgary alberta canada fax
comp.graphics	comp graphics faq there comp graphics faq and where jim powlesland internet powlesla acs ucalgary academic computing services voice university calgary message calgary alberta canada fax
comp.graphics	help animation for pcx gif files series images sun raster formats converted them pcx formats can the conversion others like gif well would like know any software that able animation for these formats and record the animation onto video tape thank you leong wai ming internet engp nusunix nus national university singapore bitnet engp nusvm nus
comp.graphics	information bmp files article gnbich med uovs gnbich med uovs charles herbst biofisika writes there anybody who can help with information the bmp file format please mail directly gnbich med uovs help will appreciated charles herbst have also been looking for this but have come with nothing have looked ftp ncsa uiuc edu which supposed have lot image specs email preferred there enough interest will post summary lise unit
comp.graphics	jpeg image compression frequently asked questions archive name jpeg faq last modified may this faq article discusses jpeg image compression suggestions for additions and clarifications are welcome new since version may added info imageviewer for next this article includes the following sections what jpeg why use jpeg when should use jpeg and when should stick with gif how well does jpeg compress images what are good quality settings for jpeg where can get jpeg software canned software viewers etc source code what all this hoopla about color quantization how does jpeg work what about lossless jpeg why all the argument about file formats how recognize which file format have and what about what about arithmetic coding does loss accumulate with repeated compression decompression what are some rules thumb for converting gif images jpeg sections are basic info that every jpeg user needs know sections are advanced info for the curious this article posted every weeks you can always find the latest version the news answers archive rtfm mit edu ftp fetch pub usenet news answers jpeg faq you don have ftp send mail mail server rtfm mit edu with body send usenet news answers jpeg faq many other faq articles are also stored this archive for more instructions use the archive send mail the same address with the words help and index quotes separate lines you don get reply the server may misreading your return address add line such path myname mysite specify your correct mail address reply what jpeg jpeg pronounced jay peg standardized image compression mechanism jpeg stands for joint photographic experts group the original name the committee that wrote the standard jpeg designed for compressing either full color gray scale digital images natural real world scenes does not work well non realistic images such cartoons line drawings jpeg does not handle black and white bit per pixel images nor does handle motion picture compression standards for compressing those types images are being worked other committees named jbig and mpeg respectively jpeg lossy meaning that the image you get out decompression isn quite identical what you originally put the algorithm achieves much its compression exploiting known limitations the human eye notably the fact that small color details aren perceived well small details light and dark thus jpeg intended for compressing images that will looked humans you plan machine analyze your images the small errors introduced jpeg may problem for you even they are invisible the eye useful property jpeg that the degree lossiness can varied adjusting compression parameters this means that the image maker can trade off file size against output image quality you can make extremely small files you don mind poor quality this useful for indexing image archives making thumbnail views icons etc etc conversely you aren happy with the output quality the default compression setting you can jack the quality until you are satisfied and accept lesser compression why use jpeg there are two good reasons make your image files smaller and store bit per pixel color data instead bit per pixel data making image files smaller big win for transmitting files across networks and for archiving libraries images being able compress mbyte full color file down kbytes makes big difference disk space and transmission time you are comparing gif and jpeg the size ratio more like four one more details below your viewing software doesn support jpeg directly you have convert jpeg some other format for viewing manipulating images even with jpeg capable viewer takes longer decode and view jpeg image than view image simpler format gif for instance thus using jpeg essentially time space tradeoff you give some time order store transmit image more cheaply worth noting that when network phone transmission involved the time savings from transferring shorter file can much greater than the extra time decompress the file let you the arithmetic yourself the other reason why jpeg will gradually replace gif standard usenet posting format that jpeg can store full color information bits pixel million colors instead less fewer colors you have only bit display hardware then this may not seem like much advantage you within couple years though bit gif will look obsolete black and white macpaint format does today furthermore for reasons detailed section jpeg far more useful than gif for exchanging images among people with widely varying color display hardware hence jpeg considerably more appropriate than gif for use usenet posting standard when should use jpeg and when should stick with gif jpeg not going displace gif entirely for some types images gif superior image quality file size both one the first things learn about jpeg which kinds images apply rule thumb jpeg superior gif for storing full color gray scale images realistic scenes that means scanned photographs and similar material jpeg superior even you don have bit display hardware and lot superior you see section for details gif does significantly better images with only few distinct colors such cartoons and line drawings particular large areas pixels that are all exactly the same color are compressed very efficiently indeed gif jpeg can squeeze these files much gif does without introducing visible defects this sort image best kept gif form particular single color borders are quite cheap gif files but they should avoided jpeg files jpeg also has hard time with very sharp edges row pure black pixels adjacent row pure white pixels for example sharp edges tend come out blurred unless you use very high quality setting again this sort thing not found scanned photographs but shows fairly often gif files borders overlaid text etc the blurriness particularly objectionable with text that only few pixels high you have gif with lot small size overlaid text don jpeg computer drawn images ray traced scenes for instance usually fall between scanned images and cartoons terms complexity the more complex and subtly rendered the image the more likely that jpeg will well the same goes for semi realistic artwork fantasy drawings and such plain black and white two level images should never converted jpeg you need least about gray levels before jpeg useful for gray scale images should also noted that gif lossless for gray scale images levels while jpeg not you have existing library gif images you may wonder whether you should convert them jpeg you will lose little image quality you section which argues that jpeg image quality superior gif only applies both formats start from full color original you start from gif you already irretrievably lost great deal information jpeg can only make things worse however the disk space savings may justify converting anyway this decision you have make for yourself you convert gif library jpeg see section for hints prepared leave some images gif format since some gifs will not convert well how well does jpeg compress images pretty darn well here are some sample file sizes for image have handy full color image ship harbor the first three files are for comparison purposes the rest were created with the free jpeg software described section file size bytes comments ship ppm original file ppm format compression bits bytes per pixel plus few bytes overhead ship ppm ppm file passed through unix compress compress doesn accomplish lot you note other text oriented compressors give similar results ship gif converted gif with ppmquant ppmtogif most the savings the result losing color info gif saves bits pixel not see sec ship jpg cjpeg highest useful quality setting this indistinguishable from the bit original least nonprofessional eyeballs ship jpg cjpeg default setting you have look mighty darn close distinguish this from the original even with both screen once ship jpg cjpeg this has slight defects you know what look for you could tell been jpeged without seeing the original still good image quality many recent postings usenet pictures groups ship jpg cjpeg jpeg characteristic blockiness becomes apparent this setting djpeg blocksmooth helps some still seen plenty usenet postings that were poorer image quality than this ship jpg cjpeg optimize optimize cuts table overhead blocky but perfectly satisfactory for preview indexing purposes note that this file tiny the compression ratio from the original this case jpeg can make file that factor four five smaller than gif comparable quality the file every bit good the gif better you have full color display this seems typical ratio for real world scenes what are good quality settings for jpeg most jpeg compressors let you pick file size image quality tradeoff selecting quality setting there seems widespread confusion about the meaning these settings quality does not mean keep the information some have claimed the quality scale purely arbitrary not percentage anything the name the game using jpeg pick the lowest quality setting smallest file size that decompresses into image indistinguishable from the original this setting will vary from one image another and from one observer another but here are some rules thumb the default quality setting very often the best choice this setting about the lowest you can without expecting see defects typical image try first you see defects then except for experimental purposes never above saying will produce file two three times large but hardly any better quality the image was less than perfect quality begin with you might able down without objectionable degradation the other hand you might need higher quality setting avoid further degradation the second case seems apply much the time when converting gifs jpeg the default about right for compressing bit images but usually better for converting gifs see section for more info you want very small file say for preview indexing purposes and are prepared tolerate large defects setting the range about right may amusing art note the quality settings discussed this article apply the free jpeg software described section and many programs based other jpeg implementations such image alchemy may use completely different quality scale some programs don even provide numeric scale just high medium low style choices where can get jpeg software most the programs described this section are available ftp you don know how use ftp see the faq article how find sources you don have direct access ftp read about ftpmail servers the same article that article appears regularly news answers you can get sending mail mail server rtfm mit edu with send usenet news answers finding sources the body the anonymous ftp list faq may also helpful usenet news answers ftp list faq the news answers archive note this list changes constantly you have copy more than couple months old get the latest jpeg faq from the news answers archive you are looking for canned software viewers etc the first part this list system specific programs that only run one kind system you don see what you want for your machine check out the portable jpeg software described the end the list note that this list concentrates free and shareware programs that you can obtain over internet but some commercial programs are listed too windows shareware excellent viewer for jpeg gif and many other image formats can also format conversion and some simple image manipulations available for ftp from export lcs mit edu file contrib tar version major upgrade with support for bit displays and many other improvements however brand new and still has some bugs lurking you prefer not the bleeding edge stick with version also available from export note that version not good choice you have bit display you get only bit color nor for converting bit images jpeg but works fine for converting gif and other bit images jpeg caution there glitch version sure check the save normal size checkbox when saving jpeg file the file will blurry another good choice for windows john cristy free imagemagick package also available from export lcs mit edu file contrib imagemagick tar this package handles many image processing and conversion tasks the imagemagick viewer handles bit displays correctly for colormapped displays does better though slower color quantization than the basic free jpeg software both the above are large complex packages you just want simple image viewer try xloadimage xli xloadimage supports jpeg its latest release xloadimage free and available from export lcs mit edu file contrib xloadimage tar xli variant version xloadimage said its fans somewhat faster and more robust than the original the current xli indeed faster and more robust than the current xloadimage least with respect jpeg files because has the ijg decoder while xloadimage using hacked over the next xloadimage release will fix this xli also free and available from export lcs mit edu file contrib xli tar both programs are said the right thing with bit displays dos this covers plain dos for windows programs see the next headings one good choice eric praetzel free dvpeg which views jpeg and gif files the current version available ftp from sunee uwaterloo file pub jpeg viewers dvpeg zip this good basic viewer that works either machines the user interface not flashy but functional another freeware jpeg gif tga viewer mohammad rezaei hiview the current version available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics zip hiview requires better cpu and vcpi compatible memory manager qemm and max work windows and not hiview currently the fastest viewer for images that are bigger than your screen for larger images scales the image down fit the screen rather than using panning scrolling most viewers you may may not prefer this approach but there denying that slows down loading large images considerably note installation bit tricky read the directions carefully shareware alternative colorview for dos this easier install than either the two freeware alternatives its user interface also much spiffier looking although personally find harder use more keystrokes inconsistent behavior faster than dvpeg but little slower than hiview least hardware for images larger than screen size dvpeg and colorview seem about the same speed and both are faster than hiview the current version available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics dcview zip requires vesa graphics driver you don have one look vesadrv zip vesa tsr zip from the same directory many recent pcs have built vesa driver don try load vesa driver unless colorview complains that the driver missing second shareware alternative fullview which has been kicking around the net for while but don know any stable archive location for the current rather old version inferior the above viewers anyway the author tells that new version fullview will out shortly and will submitted the simtel archives that time the well known gif viewer compushow cshow supports jpeg its latest revision however cshow jpeg implementation isn very good slow about half the speed the above viewers and image quality poor except color displays too bad have been nice see good jpeg capability cshow shareware available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos gif cshw zip due the remarkable variety graphics hardware any one these viewers might not work your particular machine you can get any them work you need use one the following conversion programs convert jpeg gif then view with your favorite gif viewer you have color hardware don use gif the intermediate format try find targa capable viewer instead vpic reputed the right thing with color displays the independent jpeg group free jpeg converters are ftpable from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics jpeg zip jpeg zip you have and extended memory these files are dos compilations the free source code described section they will convert jpeg and from gif targa and ppm formats handmade software offers free jpeg gif conversion tools gif jpg jpg gif these are slow and are limited conversion and from gif format particular you can get bit color output from jpeg the major advantage these tools that they will read and write hsi proprietary jpeg format well the usenet standard jfif format since hsi format files are rather widespread bbses this useful capability version these tools free prior versions were shareware get from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics gif jpg zip note not use hsi format for files posted internet since not readable non platforms handmade software also has shareware image conversion and manipulation package image alchemy this will translate jpeg files both jfif and hsi formats and from many other image formats can also display images demo version image alchemy version available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics alch zip note about simtel the internet key archive site for related programs simtel full name wsmr simtel army mil simtel runs non unix system with weird directory names where this document refers directory msdos graphics simtel that really means msdos graphics you are not physically milnet you should expect rather slow ftp transfer rates from simtel there are several internet sites that maintain copies mirrors the simtel archives most ftp users should one the mirror sites instead popular usa mirror site oak oakland edu which keeps simtel files pub msdos graphics you have ftp capability you can retrieve files from simtel mail see informational postings comp archives msdos announce find out how you are outside the usa consult the same newsgroup learn where your nearest simtel mirror microsoft windows there are several windows programs capable displaying jpeg images windows viewers are generally slower than dos viewers the same hardware due windows system overhead note that you can run the dos conversion programs described above inside windows dos window the newest entry winecj which free and extremely fast version available from ftp rahul net file pub bryanw jpeg wecj zip requires windows and more colors mode this frills viewer with the bad habit hogging the machine completely while decodes and the image quality noticeably worse than other viewers but fast you use anyway least for previewing jview freeware fairly fast has good line help and can write out the decompressed image windows bmp format but can create new jpeg files and doesn view gifs jview also lacks some other useful features the shareware viewers such brightness adjustment but excellent basic viewer the current version available from ftp cica indiana edu file pub win desktop jview zip mirrors this archive can found some other internet sites including wuarchive wustl edu winjpeg shareware displays jpeg gif targa tiff and bmp image files can write all these formats too can used converter has some other nifty features including color balance adjustment and slideshow the current version available from simtel and mirror sites see note above file msdos windows winjp zip this slow compatible version you register you get the only version which roughly faster colorview another shareware entry this was early and promising contender but has not been updated some time and this point has real advantages over winjpeg you want try anyway the current version available from ftp cica indiana edu file pub win desktop cview zip understand that new version will appearing once the authors are finished with colorview for dos dvpeg see dos heading also works under windows but only full screen mode not window the following files are available from hobbes nmsu edu note check pub uploads for more recent versions the hobbes moderator not very fast about moving uploads into their permanent directories pub graphics jpegv zip bit version free ijg conversion programs version pub all graphics jpeg zip bit version same for pub graphics imgarc zip image archiver image conversion viewing with graphical interface strong conversion functions viewing bit weaker shareware pub graphics pmjpeg zip pmjpeg port winjpeg popular viewer for windows see description windows section shareware pub graphics pmview zip pmview jpeg gif bmp targa pcx viewer gif viewing very fast jpeg viewing roughly the same speed the above two programs has image manipulation slideshow functions shareware macintosh most mac jpeg programs rely apple jpeg implementation which part the quicktime system extension you need have quicktime installed use quicktime you need better cpu and you need running system later you running system you must also install the bit quickdraw extension this built system you can get quicktime ftp from ftp apple com file dts mac quicktime quicktime hqx this file contains quicktime which better than several ways with respect jpeg marginally faster and considerably less prone crash when fed corrupt jpeg file however some applications seem have compatibility problems with mac users should keep mind that quicktime jpeg format pict jpeg not the same the usenet standard jfif jpeg format see section for details you post images usenet make sure they are jfif format most the programs mentioned below can generate either format the first choice probably jpegview free program for viewing images that are jfif format pict jpeg format gif format also can convert between the two jpeg formats the current version big improvement over prior versions get from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac app jpeg view hqx requires system and quicktime bit displays jpegview usually produces the best color image quality all the currently available mac jpeg viewers jpegview can view large images much less memory than other mac viewers fact the only one that can deal with jpeg images much over pixels typical mac given large image jpegview automatically scales down fit the screen rather than presenting scroll bars like most other viewers you can zoom any desired portion though some people like this behavior some don overall jpegview user interface very well thought out gifconverter shareware image viewer converter supports jfif and pict jpeg well gif and several other image formats the latest version get from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac art gif gif converter hqx requires system later gifconverter not better than jpegview plain jpeg gif viewer but has much more extensive image manipulation and format conversion capabilities you may find worth its shareware fee you lot playing around with images also the newest version gifconverter can load and save jfif images without quicktime your best bet your machine too old run quicktime but faster with quicktime note gifconverter runs out memory trying load large jpeg try converting the file gif with jpeg convert then viewing the gif version jpeg convert mac version the free ijg jpeg conversion utilities available from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac app jpeg convert hqx this will run any mac but only does file conversion not viewing you can use conjunction with any gif viewer previous versions this faq recommended imagery jpeg jpeg gif converter based old version the ijg code you are using this program you definitely should replace with jpeg convert apple free program pictpixie can view images jfif quicktime jpeg and gif format and can convert between these formats you can get pictpixie from ftp apple com file dts mac quicktime stuff pictpixie hqx requires quicktime pictpixie was intended developer tool and really not the best choice unless you like fool around with quicktime some its drawbacks are that requires lots memory produces relatively poor color image quality anything less than bit display and has relatively unfriendly user interface worse pictpixie unsupported program meaning has some minor bugs that apple does not intend fix there old version pictpixie called pictcompressor floating around the net you have this you should trash even buggier also the quicktime starter kit includes much cleaned descendant pictpixie called picture compressor note that picture compressor not free and may not distributed the net storm technology picture decompress free jpeg viewer converter this rather old program inferior the above programs many ways but will run without system quicktime you may forced use older systems does need bit quickdraw really old machines can use you can get from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac app picture decompress hqx you must set the file type downloaded image file jpeg allow picture decompress open your machine too old run bit quickdraw mac plus for instance gifconverter your only choice for single program jpeg viewing you don want pay for gifconverter use jpeg convert and free gif viewer more and more commercial mac applications are supporting jpeg although not all can deal with the usenet standard jfif format adobe photoshop version later can read and write jfif format jpeg files use the jpeg plug from the acquire menu you must set the file type downloaded jpeg file jpeg allow photoshop recognize amiga most programs listed this section are stored the aminet archive amiga physik unizh there are many mirror sites this archive and you should try use the closest one the usa good choice wuarchive wustl edu look under mirrors amiga physik unizh hamlab plus excellent jpeg viewer converter well being general image manipulation tool cheap shareware and can read several formats besides jpeg the current version demo version available from amiga physik unizh and mirror sites file amiga gfx edit hamlab lha the demo version will crop images larger than but otherwise fully functional rend shareware image renderer that can display jpeg ilbm and gif images the program can used create animations even capturing frames the fly from rendering packages like lightwave the current version available from amiga physik unizh and mirror sites file amiga gfx rend lha note although this directory supposedly for amigados programs the program will also run under amigados viewtek free jpeg ilbm gif anim viewer the current version available from amiga physik unizh and mirror sites file amiga gfx show viewtek lha you willing spend real money there are several commercial packages that support jpeg two are written thomas krehbiel the author rend and viewtek these are cinemorph standalone image morphing package and imagefx impressive bit image capture conversion editing painting effects and prepress package that also includes cinemorph both are distributed great valley products art department professional adpro from asdg inc the most widely used commercial image manipulation software for amigas imagemaster from black belt systems another well regarded commercial graphics package with jpeg support the free ijg jpeg software available compiled for amigas from amiga physik unizh and mirror sites directory amiga gfx conv file amigajpegv lha these programs convert jpeg from ppm gif targa formats the amiga world heavily infested with quick and dirty jpeg programs many based ancient beta test version the free ijg jpeg software thanks certain magazine that published same its disk the month without much notifying the authors among these are augjpeg newamyjpeg vjpeg and probably others have not even heard opinion anything older than ijg version march not worth the disk space stored you have such program trash and get something newer atari the free ijg jpeg software available compiled for atari etc from atari archive umich edu file atari graphics jpeg bin zoo these programs convert jpeg from ppm gif targa formats for monochrome monitors try mgif which manages achieve four level grayscale effect flickering version reads jpeg files available from atari archive umich edu file atari graphics mgif zoo have not heard any other free shareware jpeg capable viewers for ataris but surely there must some now pointers appreciated acorn archimedes changefsi supplied with risc version can convert from and view jpeg jfif format provision also made convert images jpeg although this must done from the cli rather than double clicking recent versions since the shareware program translator can handle jpeg along with about other image formats while older versions can found some archimedes bboards the current version only available registering with the author john kortink nutterbrink enschede the netherlands price dutch guilders about pounds there also commercial product called jpeg which provides jpeg read write functionality and direct jpeg viewing well host other image format conversion and processing options this more expensive but not necessarily better than the above programs contact software freepost cambridge tel next imageviewer utility that displays images and can some format conversions the current version reads jpeg but does not write imageviewer available from the standard next archives sonata purdue edu and orst edu somewhere pub next both are currently being organized hard point specific sub directories note that there older version floating around that does not support jpeg portable software for almost any system none the above fits your situation you can obtain and compile the free jpeg conversion software described you also need viewer program your display bits less any gif viewer will fine you have display with more color capability try find viewer that can read targa ppm bit image files there are numerous commercial jpeg offerings with more popping every day recommend that you not spend money one these unless you find the available free shareware software vastly too slow that case purchase hardware assisted product ask pointed questions about whether the product complies with the final jpeg standard and about whether can handle the jfif file format many the earliest commercial releases are not and never will compatible with anyone else files you are looking for source code work with free portable code for jpeg compression available from the independent jpeg group which lead package containing our source code documentation and some small test files available from several places the official archive site for this source code ftp net look under directory graphics jpeg the current release jpegsrc tar this compressed tar file don forget retrieve binary mode you can retrieve this file ftp uucp you are and don know how cope with tar format you may prefer zip format which you can find simtel and mirror sites see note above file msdos graphics jpegsrc zip this file will also available compuserve the graphsupport forum pics library jpsrc zip you have ftp access you can retrieve the source from your nearest comp sources misc archive version appeared issues volume you don know how retrieve comp sources misc postings see the faq article how find sources referred the top section the free jpeg code provides conversion between jpeg jfif format and image files gif pbmplus ppm pgm utah rle and truevision targa file formats the core compression and decompression modules can easily reused other programs such image viewers the package highly portable have tested many machines ranging from pcs crays have released this software for both noncommercial and commercial use companies are welcome use the basis for jpeg related products not ask royalty although ask for acknowledgement product literature see the readme file the distribution for details hope make this software industrial quality although with anything that free offer warranty and accept liability the independent jpeg group volunteer organization you like contribute improving our software you are welcome join what all this hoopla about color quantization most people don have full color bit per pixel display hardware typical display hardware stores fewer bits per pixel can display fewer distinct colors time display full color image the computer must map the image into appropriate set representative colors this process called color quantization this something misnomer color selection would better term stuck with the standard usage though clearly color quantization lossy process turns out that for most images the details the color quantization algorithm have much more impact the final image quality than any errors introduced jpeg except the very lowest jpeg quality settings since jpeg full color format converting color jpeg image for display bit less hardware requires color quantization this true for all color jpegs even you feed less color gif into jpeg what comes out the decompressor not colors but thousands colors this happens because jpeg lossiness affects each pixel little differently two pixels that started with identical colors will probably come out with slightly different colors each original color gets smeared into group nearby colors therefore quantization always required display color jpeg colormapped display regardless the image source the only way avoid quantization ask for gray scale output incidentally because this effect nearly meaningless talk about the number colors used jpeg image even you attempted count the number distinct pixel values different jpeg decoders would give you different results because roundoff error differences occasionally see posted images described color jpeg this tells that the poster hasn read this faq and probably converted the jpeg from gif jpegs can classified color gray scale just like photographs but number colors just isn useful concept for jpeg the other hand gif image definition has already been quantized fewer colors gif does have definite number colors its palette and the format doesn allow more than palette entries for purposes usenet picture distribution gif has the advantage that the sender precomputes the color quantization recipients don have this also the disadvantage gif you stuck with the sender quantization the sender quantized different number colors than what you can display you have quantize resulting much poorer image quality than you had quantized once from full color image furthermore the sender didn use high quality color quantization algorithm you out luck for this reason jpeg offers the promise significantly better image quality for all users whose machines don match the sender display hardware jpeg full color image can quantized precisely match the user display hardware furthermore you will able take advantage future improvements quantization algorithms there lot active research this area purchase better display hardware get better view jpeg images you already have with gif you stuck forevermore with what was sent also worth mentioning that many gif viewing programs include rather shoddy quantization routines you view color gif color ega display for example you are probably getting much worse image than you need this partly inevitable consequence doing two color quantizations one create the gif one display but often also due sloppiness jpeg conversion programs will forced use high quality quantizers order get acceptable results all and normal use they will quantize directly the number colors displayed thus jpeg likely provide better results than the average gif program for low color resolution displays well high resolution ones finally ever growing number people have better than bit display hardware already bit color displays true bit displays workstations and macintoshes etc for these people gif already obsolete cannot represent image the full capabilities their display jpeg images can drive these displays much more effectively thus jpeg all around better choice than gif for representing images machine independent fashion how does jpeg work the buzz words know are chrominance subsampling discrete cosine transforms coefficient quantization and huffman arithmetic entropy coding this article long enough already not going say more than that here for technical information see the comp compression faq this available from the news answers archive rtfm mit edu files pub usenet news answers compression faq part you need help using the news answers archive see the top this article what about lossless jpeg there great deal confusion this subject the jpeg committee did define truly lossless compression algorithm one that guarantees the final output bit for bit identical the original input however this lossless mode has almost nothing common with the regular lossy jpeg algorithm and offers much less compression present very few implementations lossless jpeg exist and all them are commercial saying the free jpeg software does not get you lossless image what does get rid deliberate information loss the coefficient quantization step there still good deal information loss the color subsampling step with the free jpeg code you can also say sample turn off subsampling keep mind that many commercial jpeg implementations cannot cope with the resulting file even with both quantization and subsampling turned off the regular jpeg algorithm not lossless because subject roundoff errors various calculations the maximum error few counts any one pixel value highly unlikely that this could perceived the human eye but might concern you are doing machine processing image this minimum loss setting regular jpeg produces files that are perhaps half the size uncompressed bit per pixel image true lossless jpeg provides roughly the same amount compression but guarantees bit for bit accuracy you have application requiring lossless storage images with less than bits per pixel per color component you may want look into the jbig bilevel image compression standard this performs better than jpeg lossless such images jpeg lossless superior jbig images with more bits per pixel furthermore jpeg public domain least with huffman back end while the jbig techniques are heavily covered patents why all the argument about file formats strictly speaking jpeg refers only family compression algorithms does not refer specific image file format the jpeg committee was prevented from defining file format turf wars within the international standards organizations since can actually exchange images with anyone else unless agree common file format this leaves with problem the absence official standards number jpeg program writers have just gone off their own thing and result their programs aren compatible with anybody else the closest thing have facto standard jpeg format some work that been coordinated people cube microsystems they have defined two jpeg based file formats jfif jpeg file interchange format low end format that transports pixels and not much else tiff jpeg aka tiff extension the aldus tiff format tiff high end format that will let you record just about everything you ever wanted know about image and lot more besides tiff lot more complex than jfif and may well prove less transportable because different vendors have historically implemented slightly different and incompatible subsets tiff not likely that adding jpeg the mix will anything improve this situation both these formats were developed with input from all the major vendors jpeg related products reasonably likely that future commercial products will adhere one both standards believe that usenet should adopt jfif the replacement for gif picture postings jfif simpler than tiff and available now the tiff spec has only recently been officially adopted and still unusably vague some crucial details even when tiff jpeg well defined the jfif format likely widely supported lowest common denominator tiff jpeg files may never transportable particular case that people may interested apple quicktime software for the macintosh quicktime uses jfif compatible format wrapped inside the mac specific pict structure conversion between jfif and quicktime jpeg pretty straightforward and several mac programs are available see mac portion section you have editor that handles binary files you can strip quicktime jpeg pict down jfif hand see section for details another particular case handmade software programs gif jpg jpg gif and image alchemy these programs are capable reading and writing jfif format default though they write proprietary format developed hsi this format not readable any non hsi programs and should not used for usenet postings use the switch get jfif output this applies old versions these programs the current releases emit jfif format default you still should careful not post hsi format files unless you want get flamed people non platforms how recognize which file format have and what about you have alleged jpeg file that your software won read likely hsi format some other proprietary jpeg based format you can tell what you have inspecting the first few bytes the file jfif standard file will start with the characters hex followed two variable bytes often hex followed jfif you see the start but not the rest you may have raw jpeg file this probably decodable jfif software worth try anyway hsi files start with hsi you out luck unless you have hsi software portions the file may look like plain jpeg data but they won decompress properly with non hsi programs macintosh pict file jpeg compressed will have couple hundred bytes header followed jfif header scan for jfif strip off everything before the and you should able read anything else proprietary format not jpeg all you are lucky the file may consist header and raw jpeg data stream you can identify the start the jpeg data stream look for try stripping off everything before that uuencoded usenet postings the characteristic jfif pattern begin line whereas uuencoded hsi files will start with begin line you learn check for the former you can save yourself the trouble downloading non jfif files what about arithmetic coding the jpeg spec defines two different back end modules for the final output compressed data either huffman coding arithmetic coding allowed the choice has impact image quality but arithmetic coding usually produces smaller compressed file typical images arithmetic coding produces file percent smaller than huffman coding all the file size numbers previously cited are for huffman coding unfortunately the particular variant arithmetic coding specified the jpeg standard subject patents owned ibm and mitsubishi thus you cannot legally use arithmetic coding unless you obtain licenses from these companies the fair use doctrine allows people implement and test the algorithm but actually storing any images with dubious best least the short run recommend that people not worry about arithmetic coding the space savings isn great enough justify the potential legal hassles particular arithmetic coding should not used for any images exchanged usenet there some small chance that the legal situation may change the future stay tuned for further details does loss accumulate with repeated compression decompression would nice having compressed image with jpeg you could decompress manipulate crop off border say and recompress without any further image degradation beyond what you lost initially unfortunately this not the case general recompressing altered image loses more information though usually not much was lost the first time around the next best thing would that you decompress image and recompress without changing then there further loss you get identical jpeg file even this not true least not with the current free jpeg software essentially problem accumulation roundoff error you repeatedly compress and decompress the image will eventually degrade where you can see visible changes from the first generation output usually takes many such cycles get visible change one the things our list see accumulation error can avoided limited but not optimistic about any case the most that could possibly guaranteed would that compressing the unmodified full color output djpeg the original quality setting would introduce further loss even such simple changes cropping off border could cause further roundoff error degradation you wondering why because the pixel block boundaries move you cropped off only multiples pixels you might safe but that mighty limited capability the bottom line that jpeg useful format for archival storage and transmission images but you don want use intermediate format for sequences image manipulation steps use lossless format ppm rle tiff etc while working the image then jpeg when you are ready file away aside from avoiding degradation you will save lot compression decompression time this way what are some rules thumb for converting gif images jpeg stated earlier you will lose some amount image information you convert existing gif image jpeg you can obtain the original full color data the gif was made from far better make jpeg from that but you need save space and have only the gif work from here are some suggestions for getting maximum space savings with minimum loss quality the first rule when converting gif library look each jpeg make sure you are happy with before throwing away the corresponding gif that will give you chance the conversion with higher quality setting necessary some gifs may better left gifs explained section particular cartoon type gifs with sixteen fewer colors don convert well you may find that jpeg file reasonable quality will larger than the gif check the sizes too experience date suggests that large high visual quality gifs are the best candidates for conversion jpeg they chew the most storage offer the most potential savings and they convert jpeg with least degradation don waste your time converting any gif much under kbytes also don expect jpeg files converted from gifs small those created directly from full color originals maintain image quality you may have let the converted files much twice big straight through jpeg files would shoot for the size the gif file not suggested earlier comparisons many people have developed odd habit putting large constant color border around gif image while useless this was nearly free terms storage cost gif files not free jpeg files and the sharp border boundary can create visible artifacts ghost edges yourself favor and crop off any border before jpeging you are windows system manual and automatic cropping functions are very painless way this cjpeg default setting appropriate for full color input but for gif inputs settings often seem necessary avoid image degradation you apply smoothing suggested below the higher setting may not necessary color gifs photographs complex artwork are usually dithered fool your eye into seeing more than the colors that gif can actually store you enlarge the image you will see that adjacent pixels are often significantly different colors normal size the eye averages these pixels together produce the illusion intermediate color value the trouble with dithering that jpeg looks like high spatial frequency color noise and jpeg can compress noise very well the resulting jpeg file both larger and lower image quality than what you would have gotten from jpeging the original full color image you had get around this you want smooth the gif image before compression smoothing averages together nearby pixels thus approximating the color that you thought you saw anyway and the process getting rid the rapid color changes that give jpeg trouble appropriate use smoothing will often let you avoid using high factor thus further reducing the size the compressed file while still obtaining better looking output image than you get without smoothing with the free jpeg software products based simple smoothing capability built try smooth when converting gifs values seem work well for high quality gifs heavy handed dithering may require larger smoothing factors you can see regular fine scale patterns the gif image even without enlargement then strong smoothing definitely called for too large smoothing factor will blur the output image which you don want you are image processing wizard you can also smoothing with separate filtering program such pnmconvol from the pbmplus package however cjpeg built smoother lot faster than pnmconvol the upshot all this that cjpeg quality smooth probably good starting point for converting gifs but you really care about the image you want check the results and maybe try few other settings for more information about jpeg general the free jpeg software particular contact the independent jpeg group jpeg info uunet net tom lane organizer independent jpeg group internet tgl cmu edu bitnet tgl cmu edu carnegie
comp.graphics	optimizing projections article sua tinnqs names nerdc ufl edu lioness ufcc ufl edu writes three library does lot projections duh but currently projecting object vertices per triangle basis this grossly inefficient for the objects displayed which can optimized doing projections one time once for each vertex but objects whose extents intersect the hither plane can benefit from this because new vertices must created during clipping anyone have any better ideas yes here what you should keep the vertices array and have the polygons triangles are okay but sided polygons are slightly more efficient store the indices into the array the vertices that comprise them you set flag for each vertex when you transform you don have transform any vertex more than once you also backface elimination before processing the polygon that vertices that belong only bacfacing polys don have transformed all whenever you transform vertex check the far side the hither plane you can project right away and store the result then your clip any vertices that get produced will have have their projection done that stage bernie roehl university waterloo dept electrical and computer engineering mail broehl sunee uwaterloo voice work
comp.graphics	parametric drafting hello networld looking for documentation books parametric drafting does anyone know such material electronic gopher ftp site books authors not looking for commercial software rather info implementation and theory the subject planning make parametric generator for autocad and would need some referance everything you know interest thanks advace lasse lars erik stenholm student the university stockholm sweden
comp.graphics	shark looking for shark for use ray tracing rountine doing using vivid pov but can any format are there any ftp sites with objects does anyone have good shark thanks alot chad new sea world ohio chad cipiti shark cipiti bobcat ent ohiou edu encounter make contact cleveland freenet edu
comp.graphics	disp have posted disp zip alt binaries pictures utilities will upload this package simtel later you may distribute this program freely for non commercial use fee gained there warranty the author not responsible for any damage caused this program important changes since version added support for iris support mix concat two images added support for batch conversion added support for load save palette table added support for edge enhance added support for crop one line added support for negate image new color quantization option fix some minor bugs introduction this program can let you read write and display images with different formats also let you some special effects rotation dithering image its main purpose let you convert image among different formts include simple file management system support slide show support batch conversion there limit image size currently this program supports bits display you want use hicolor truecolor you must have vesa driver you want modify video driver please read section hardware requirement better msdos higher min amount ram bytes maybe less memory will also work recommend min bytes for better performance hard disk for swapping virtual memory the following description borrowed from djgpp supported wares extended memory expanded under vcpi disk space used for swapping supervga color mode xms vdisk memory allocation strategies vcpi programs such qemm desqview and max unsupported dpmi microsoft windows features emulator bit unix ish environment flat memory model svga graphics installation video drivers emu and exe are borrowed from djgpp you use western digital vga chips read readme this exe modified version for vesa and completely compatible with original version but some people report that this exe not compatible with other djgpp programs their system you encounter this problem don put exe within search path please read runme bat for how run this program you choose xxxxx grn video driver add environment for example driver xxxxx xxxxx grn you don have add emu xxxxx emu environment for example driver xxxxx xxxxx grd emu xxxxx emu notes only test grn grn and vesa grn other drivers are not tested have modified grn support bits display you don need use vesa driver grn doesn work please try vesa grn for those who want use hicolor truecolor display please use vesa grn except users you can find vesa bios driver from wuarchive wustl edu mirrors msdos graphics godzilla cgl rmit kjb mgl command line switch usage display display initial display type sort sort method display type svga default hicolor truecolor sort method name ext function key change disk drive ctrl ctrl change disk drive change filename mask see match doc change parameters some effects picture flip rotate make directory tag file tag group files see match doc tag all files untag file untag group files see match doc untag all files ins change display type read screen menu move file alt move single file ignore tag delete file alt delete single file ignore tag rename file copy file alt copy single file ignore tag display first bytes ascii hex and dec modes display disk free space page down move one page tab change processing target arrow keys home end page page down scroll image home left most end right most page top most page down bottom most screen effect menu left right arrow change display type bits ctrl arrow keys crop image one line graphics mode slide show show tagged files escape terminate batch conversion convert tagged files single format wait pause slide show alt quit program without prompting alt reread directory escape abort function and return support format read gif gif japan mag mag japan pic pic sun raster ras jpeg jpg xbm xbm utah rle rle pbm pbm pgm pgm ppm ppm pcx pcx japan mki mki tiff tif targa tga xpm xpm mac paint mac gem img img iff ilbm lbm window bmp bmp qrt ray tracing qrt mac pict pct vis vis pds pds viking vik vicar vic fits fit usenix face fac iris sgi the extensions are standard extensions write gif sun raster jpeg xbm pbm pgm ppm tiff targa xpm mac paint ascii laser jet iff ilbm window bmp mac pict vis fits face pcx gem img iris all read write support full color bits grey scale dither and bits image allowed for that format detail initialization set default display type highest display type find allowable screen resolution for grn video driver only when you run this program you will enter read menu whthin this menu you can press any function key you move copy files you will enter write menu the write menu much like read menu but only allow you change directory the header line read menu includes display type number files number tagged files pressing space read menu will let you select which format use for reading current file pressing return read menu will let you reading current file this program will automatically determine which format this file the procedure first check magic number fail check standard extension still fail report error pressing read menu will slide show delay time program will wait until you hit key except escape any error occurs program will make beep pause any key continue escape terminate pressing ins read menu will change display type pressing alt read menu will quit program without prompting pressing will turn effect menu once image file successfully read you will enter screen menu you can special effect image pressing return show image graphic mode press return space escape return text mode pressing tab change processing target this program allows you special effects bit bit image pressing left right arrow change display type bits pressing space save current image file dither save black white image bit grey scale save grey image bits full color save color image bits true color save bit image this program will ask you some questions you want write image file some questions are format dependent finally this program will prompt you filename you want save file under another directory other than current directory please press space after pressing space you will enter write menu you can change directory what you want then pressing space this program will prompt you original filename pressing return this program will prompt you selected filename filename under bar this program supports bits display this program memory greedy you don have enough memory the performance poor you want save bits image try gif then tiff lzw then targa then sun raster then bmp then you want save bits image lossless try tiff lzw targa ilbm sun raster one better for true bits image recommend jpeg for storing bits images even bits images not all subroutines are fully tested this document not well written you have any problem suggestion comment about this program please send bicmos nctu edu need your suggestion improve this program there anonymous ftp this site tech information program user interface and some subroutines written jih shin some subroutines are borrowed from and pbmplus dec tiff and jpeg reading writing are through public domain libraries compiled with djgpp you can get whole djgpp package from simtel mirror sites for example wuarchive wustl edu mirrors msdos djgpp for thoese who want modify video driver get grx source code from simtel mirror sites for hicolor and truecolor bits colors set bits colors set bits colors set acknowledgment would like thank the authors and pbmplus for their permission let use their subroutines also will thank the authors who write tiff and jpeg libraries thank without djgpp can any thing jih shin bicmos nctu edu
comp.graphics	calculating regular polyhedra vertices interested copy this code you run across mail the author bounced hpldsla comp graphics ricky vnet ibm com rick turner may fooled around with this problem few years ago and implemented simple method that ran was very simple about lines code somewhere still have and could dig out there was interest rick dan conway dconway hpsid sid com
comp.graphics	siggraph online experimental publication available rich brandwein writes article may bert eecs uic edu rsc siggraph org steve cunningham writes computer graphics experimental special online issue may the may experimental special issue computer graphics online set files the siggraph org system the directory ftp publications may online this made available the computer graphics community acm siggraph the general theme this issue electronic documents and the table contents the aboutthisissue files will tell you more about this publication and its contents ftp here but found nothing has this been removed nope still there ftp siggraph org connected siggraph org siggraph org ftp server version tue apr cdt ready name siggraph org rsc anonymous guest login send mail address password password welcome siggraph org machine maintained for acm siggraph volunteers service the active computer graphics community ftp publications may online cwd command successful ftp port command successful opening ascii mode data connection for file list aboutthisissue kappe maurer skip tappan russell gonzalez rosenblum bossomaier green announcements calendar contacts index read transfer complete bytes received seconds kbytes ftp
comp.graphics	cgm garphics viewer wanted currently looking for viewer for computer graphics metafile cgm pictures please inform about shareware freeware version thnx remco jorna kub
comp.graphics	pov ray related group needed hed cats ucsc edu magic fingers writes article may exucom com cyberman exucom com stephen phillips writes takes making alt group then why not been following this thread for what has been two months now the alt hierarchie created for purposes for groups which not fit under the comp other official hierarchies for the fast creation hot new newsgroups like alt gulf war because there voting process any other control facilities sites are free decide not carry some the alt groups therefore think desirable try create comp graphics raytrace rendering whatever and not alt group wouter
comp.graphics	bit planes could anyone please explain what bit planes are have sgi here work that says has bit planes what does this mean how does this relate graphics what they usually have please reply via email most this group over head thanks advance bob gruen structural dynamics research corp cincinnati ohio
comp.graphics	help article ddtopper dundee ncr com stephenc says studio there any way create refraction diffraction etc want simulate such things glass lenses bottles etc there might ipas routine that does that but can sure another way render the scene without the glass object and save the image then assign that image your glass object reflection will take lot adjusting for position and size the reflection but that the only thing can think
comp.graphics	input devices greetings all does anyone use some form input device would like hear any information any systems that people are currently using please email responses will summarise get some feedback brendan langoulant brendan uwa edu
comp.graphics	cfp int symp computer and information sciences call for papers the eighth international symposium computer and information sciences iscis viii november antalya turkey organized ehei ecole des hautes etudes informatique paris france metu middle east technical university ankara turkey cooperation with ieee computer society turkey chapter ieee turkey section and the following universities bogazici ege hacettepe istanbul teknik yildiz iscis advisory board arkun gelenbe halici harmanci inan karsligil kuru yalabik yarimagan yilmaz conference chair program chairs publicity chair erol gelenbe gun ibm usa ugur halici metu duke university usa onvural ibm usa halici metu edu erol egr duke edu quinton irisa france halici trmetu bitnet program committee akman turkey alpaydin turkey arkun turkey aybay turkey bilgen turkey dogac turkey dogramaci turkey fdida france fourneau france gelenbe usa gonenc turkey halici turkey harmanci turkey inan turkey jaehnischen germany kuru turkey nivat france paschos france pekergin france perrot france raynal france stafylopatis greece stamon france ucoluk turkey yalabik turkey publicity committee isik aybay osman basbugoglu semih bilgen emin germen mert sungur iscis viii the eighth series meetings which have brought together computer scientists and engineers from about twenty countries this year conference will held the beautiful mediterranean resort city antalya region rich natural well historical sites research papers are sought the following areas theory computer science computer architecture systems artificial intelligence neural networks graphics and image processing computational mathematics operations research applications databases performance evaluation software engineering computer networks parallelism paper submission full papers are limited pages and short communications are limited pages submit five camera ready copies one original and four copies the paper and accompanying letter postal mail only arrive june iscis viii attn drs levent gun and raif onvural ibm box research triangle park usa selected papers from iscis viii will published the journal information sciences elsevier north holland poster submission submit five camera ready copies page extended abstract with accompanying letter july the address given above information for required writing format further information and announcements contact iscis viii ugur halici dept electrical and electronics eng metu ankara turkey tel ext fax email iscis metu edu iscis trmetu bitnet
comp.graphics	help reconstruction new imaging and advisor and would like some reconstructions take slides biological and image them then the software allows trace the outline the objects want save the outlines are stored tiff file would like convert group these outlines into image are unsure where begin someone mentioned that could convert the tiff into vector format then could view them autocad any help would greatly appreciated pankaj oberoi spedhead athena mit edu
comp.graphics	tiff recently read book that the tiff version specification was due released the spring interested finding out about the new features the tiff spec and out specifically need know tiff supports decompression and image tiling
comp.graphics	image format conversion tool hello does anyone know image format conversion tool that will convert raw bit grey scale image gif tif format would great the tool ran was windows application and supported other formats but happy with anything that works attn code robert lafollette dahlgren division naval surface warfare center dahlgren autovon fax email rlafoll duchamp nswc navy mil rlafoll
comp.graphics	what this file from article suntv watson mtsu edu csjohn watson mtsu edu john wallace got this animation file with extension what this are there anu dos programs which will run this file thanks the file archive containing individual frames pieces frames usually stored pic clp files fonts and txt file that tells the grasp animation system how display stands for grasp library there probably detailed discussion this subject the alt binaries pictures faq there are freely distributable viewers for files and they are usually named grasprt exe replace the with version digit letter most files contain frames that are hardware specific particular modes the cga ega vga adapters pcs think that there are some copies grasprt available anonymous ftp know that got one there long time ago good luck jack jack stephenson main mail stephenson isuv interlan com racal datacom alternate mail stephens souv interlan com box lauderdale usa phone
comp.graphics	vga graphics library article mwca uucp bill mwca uucp bill sheppard writes many high end graphics cards come with source code for doing basic graphics sorts things change colors draw points lines polygons fills etc does such library exist for generic vga graphics cards chips hopefully the public domain this would for the purpose compiling under non dos operating system running standard also interested info both public domain and commercial graphics library package vga graphics currently working realtime application running pcc with non dos kernel that needs some simple graphics not sure reentrancy the graphics library going issue not suspect implement the display controller server process that handles graphics requests queued mailbox one time this provides sufficiently frequent display updates then believe that can restrict all graphics operations performed the server and thus constrain access the library this single process and avoid the need for reentrant graphics library being fairly new the realtime systems world may overlooking something what you think cheers bob fitzsimmons fitz cse ogi edu
comp.graphics	lookin form model loom folks doing animated film new methodes loom research you know the thing they make cloth with and need model loom the format should ascii faceted geometry and fairly straight forward figure out any help pointers would greatly appreciated thanks rick boykin rick boykin rboykin cscsparc larc nasa gov computer sciences corporation hampton maybe could fly and feed arachnid die tom marshall
comp.graphics	input devices hello interested those devices too could also send your suggestions thank advance regards martin vicente mail vicente cenaath cena dgac tph centre etudes navigation aerienne div support informatique developpement
comp.graphics	oriented bounding box generation looking for code that will generate minimum volume oriented bounding box for arbitrary polyhedron anyone know such code why converting objects from one modelling system into another and the destination system object oriented want represent each object its own coordinate system that its bounding box with the objects then translated and rotated appropriately this being the representation used the destination system john nagle
comp.graphics	ray bezier intersection problem some kind person has access mathematical package such mathematica maple would like ask you for the solution the following problem sometimes have algebra problems like this where would like simplified symbolic solution there ftp able package out there that can handle such beasts would like solve the following ray bezier patch intersection for the scalar constant origin point dir vector terms only and various scalars origin dir where particular case particular case for particular case control points space thanx chuck elwood reston ingr com
comp.graphics	anonymous ftp sites for graphics can someone please give couple names anonymous ftp sites that cater graphics looking for info sources images for building ray tracer thanks robert woolridge robertw clovis pen tek com
comp.graphics	point polygon routine needed andrew lewis tepper andrew cmu edu writes don know this routine standard just came with recently for polygon points and point make table follows angle from angle from angle from express all angles angle add all entries the table the sum the point outside the sum the point inside the point xpi you have strange polygon any angle was the point the border think known but neat can extended john nagle
comp.graphics	pov ray related group needed hed cats ucsc edu magic fingers writes article may exucom com cyberman exucom com stephen phillips writes takes making alt group then why not been following this thread for what has been two months now the alt hierarchie created for purposes for groups which not fit under the comp other official hierarchies for the fast creation hot new newsgroups like alt gulf war because there voting process any other control facilities sites are free decide not carry some the alt groups therefore think desirable try create comp graphics raytrace rendering whatever and not alt group wouter very good point there someone out there that working this offer time help manage all myself but yaw are not going hear from over the summer not trying pushy and there being progress made pov mailing list hed advertisement advertisement don miss this one time only sale sale sale sale tech now selling thier now model jed series geek bot this limited time offer reduction from our usual price dollars buy one now don wait sale ends sunday advertisement adveritisement
comp.graphics	raw byte grayscale gif currently have some grayscale image files that are not any standard format they simply contain the bit pixel values would like display these images the conversion gif format would helpful this conversion can take place either unix system and could then download the can anyone suggest where can find software this alternatively may have write own conversion program this case could someone tell where can find the gif format specification please mail directly shayla shannon jpl nasa gov thanks
comp.graphics	graphics software needed hello are looking for graphics package preferably complete with source code that will run our unix operating system sequent running dynix this graphics package must support wide variety character based graphics devices running terminal emulator primarily this point graphics not option this graphics program should possible support these sorts graphics operations minimum requirements complicated axes log linear etc with fairly precise axis labels multi line labels etc major and minor tickmarks axes etc would nice some limited amount color plotting were available the output device supported have copy gnuplot and are currently using but gnuplot has some limitations are looking for something more robust than gnuplot this point looking for information about packages that might solve our problems you have any information please contact the above email address the product you know about commercial software package please send phone number email address that can contact them about pricing etc annette koontz battelle pacific northwest richland usa
comp.graphics	pov ray related group needed may gmt wlieftin liefting said liefting hed cats ucsc edu magic fingers writes article may exucom com cyberman exucom com stephen phillips writes takes making alt group then why not been following this thread for what has been two months now liefting the alt hierarchie created for purposes for liefting groups which not fit under the comp other official liefting hierarchies for the fast creation hot new newsgroups liefting like alt gulf war liefting because there voting process any other control liefting facilities sites are free decide not carry some liefting the alt groups liefting therefore think desirable try create liefting comp graphics raytrace rendering whatever and not liefting alt group plus many sites especially many com sites not carry any alt newsgroups don for example comp group will get much broader distribution and would useful many more people plus the topic important popular enough warrant its own group imho kent dalton email kent dalton ftcollinsco ncr com ncr microelectronics phone danfield fax fort collins colorado does someone from peoria have shorter attention span than
comp.graphics	adobe type manager what good the subject says all bought adobe type manager and find completely useless ftped some atm fonts and couldn install them what the use are you supposed able convert atm fonts truetype there anyone out there who has this program and actually finds useful enlighten pete
comp.graphics	products handle hdtv moving pircture sec kazsato twics writes like know there any system cpu array framebuffer which can play and record hdtv quality moving picture realtime hdtv has about frame recording playing moving picture will need about sec bandwidth thinking treat the raw data not compressed actually for digital hdtv systems that far higher bandwidth than you need unless there some reason you must work fully uncompressed hdtv also calculations that each frame should well under even using bits pixel which more bits than you actually need should enough for moving picture bits guessing hdtv resolution may bit wider than fairly sure the number for most the digital proposals hope you have very fast memory system well while displaying will require heavily interleaved vram system unless you have very compelling reason advise trying use least somewhat compressed data you don have full compression get level where the data requirements are much cheaper and easier deal with gnu emacs lisp operating system disguised word processor doug mohney comp arch randell jesup jack quite few trades commodore engineering jesup cbmvax commodore com rutgers cbmvax jesup bix rjesup disclaimer nothing say anything other than personal opinion
comp.graphics	video memory hello have posted this newsgroup once before and recieved moderately helpful response couple issues this appreciated very much would however like know why that ther simply information out there some subjects for the relativly novice graphics programmer the subjects are how you access the extra video memory video board know somwhere there aresome standard video bios calls that allow you dothis have meg memory board and according all the books and info have read only maximum using there way this standard vga cause have seen vidoe paging written assembly which don know written into apps hat use mode get any speed all you have this how the vesa standard what gives here have read most what the net has offer vesa and far coding for vesa goes most the advice cryptic best where get public domain info that will tell mostly plain english how the vesa calls work biggest gripe about number have bought graphics books have asked graphics professors have hunted the net through both gopher and archie ahave asked apps programmers and like there some lock this information graphics programming books tell alot programmiing algorithm information but they always fall short telling you how really control the video bios what are all the calls folks know there are people out there that know how doall tis stuff where are you and why haven you written book yet please help thanks advance stephen palm palm snycanva bitnet please send all personal replies the above address thanks
comp.graphics	products handle hdtv moving pircture sec how does the bit color hdtv work can not bit red green and blue like the macintosh this gives only gray levels apple also has developed point point network that around not sure bits bytes per sec povl pedersen macintosh specialist knows some dos and unix too pope imv aau povlphp uts uni finger pope imv aau for pgp public key
comp.graphics	where did the hacker ethic vinci filipe vxcrna cern wrote article may hal com bobp hal com bob pendleton writes from article may pony ingres com mwmeyer ingres com mike wading through the muck and meyer article may hal com bobp hal com bob pendleton writes this getting pretty silly first off hacker obsolete term doesn matter what used mean today means thief only means thief you want mean that means lots context wickedly omitted myself anyway say joe hacker most english speaking people who know the word they probably think either poor golfer bad carpenter but there are very very few people who will think good and clever programmer you chose call yourself term that means thief don surprised when people think you are thief even you don agree with that definition the word the narrower view that hacker when associated with the computing environment dishonest expert not widespread opinion least with the people involved with the field imho the wider meaning not obsolete all matter how much the lay press would like therefore conclude that you call yourself hacker and somebody perceives you thief then this person belongs very very small group that has some computer knowledge but not enough know the wider and original meaning the word unfortunately the general public has very narrow view the deep dark recesses the art computing what little they see from the view given them the media from what have seen from the media hacker not proper way which refer respected person the other hand know what hacker means from those who consider themselves such following the definition from jargon file this also known the hackers dictionary the definitions are arranged order decreasing frequency usage hacker originally someone who makes furniture with axe person who enjoys exploring the details programmable systems and how stretch their capabilities opposed most users who prefer learn only the minimum necessary one who programs enthusiastically even obsessively who enjoys programming rather than just theorizing about programming person capable appreciating hack value person who good programming quickly expert particular program one who frequently does work using unix hacker definitions through are correlated and people who fit them congregate expert enthusiast any kind one might astronomy hacker for example one who enjoys the intellectual challenge creatively overcoming circumventing limitations deprecated malicious meddler who tries discover sensitive information poking around hence password hacker network hacker see cracker the term hacker also tends connote membership the global community defined the net see network the and internet address also implies that the person described seen subscribe some version the hacker ehic see hacker ethic the better described hacker others than describe oneself that way hackers consider themselves something elite meritocracy based ability though one which new members are gladly welcome there thus certain ego satisfaction had identifying yourself hacker but you claim one and are not you quickly labeled bogus see also wannabee hacker ethic the the belief that information sharing powerful positive good and that ethical duty hackers share their expertise writing free software and facilitating access information and computing resources wherever possible the belief that system cracking for fun and exploration ethically long the cracker commits theft vandalism breach confidentiality both these normative ethical principles are widely but means universally accepted among hackers most hackers subscribe the hacker ethic sense and many act writing and giving away free software few further and assert that all information should free and any proprietary control bad this the philosophy behind the gnu project sense more controversial some people consider the act cracking itself unethical like breaking and entering but this principle least moderates the behavior people who see themselves benign crackers see also samurai this view one the highest forms hackerly courtesy break into system and then explain the sysop preferably email from superuser account exactly how was done and how the hole can plugged acting unpaid unsolicited tiger team the most reliable manifestation either version the hacker ethic that almost all hackers are actively willing share technical tricks software and where possible computing resources with other hackers huge cooperative networks such usenet fidonet and internet see internet address can function without central control because this trait they both rely and reinforce sense community that may hackerdom most valuable intangible asset finally true hacker does not name himself herself one for this title that bestowed the befuddled sysadmins and users large sign truly great hacker introduced someone who says nahh just know thing two people always exagerate note that the above definition does not preclude hacker from describing limself meaning himself herself one but simply says that better not there are many who not know the meaning hacker order defend the true meaning the word sometimes necessary borrow the reputation known respected hacker around the workplace this means that hacker defined terms some well known and respected person sometimes there may only one such person matter what dumpty says language doesn work that way actually does you just have get adequate press coverage language works anyway that want work the purpose language communicate oversimplify long communication taking place then language working include stddisclaimer amiga the computer for the creative mind commodore weber state macintosh the computer for the rest apple university think therefore amiga val csulx weber edu ogden usa
comp.graphics	iges and formats trying find out anything can about available documentation for iges and arc info formats you know anything about these formats just one please send note don read this group please send responses mike prc utexas edu thank you mike kline
comp.graphics	adobe type manager what good menchett dws unr edu peter menchetti writes the subject says all bought adobe type manager and find completely useless ftped some atm fonts and couldn install them what the use are you supposed able convert atm fonts truetype there anyone out there who has this program and actually finds useful enlighten pete there are some tricks installing atm windows install them first dos then run the atm control panel get them into windows the best reason for atm that adobe the standard truetype failed venture undercut adobe when adobe was being nasty about keeping their formats proprietary just about any service bureau print shop will smirk and send you your way you bring truetype document them for high resolution printing ripping although there are lots pretty fonts floating around they are really for dot matrix your own lazer printer however you can convert your fonts with fontmonger some similar program atm fonts for high end stuff you are using dot matrix for all your printing you may have wasted your money dave
comp.graphics	how print out ncar cgm file have lots cgm files produced ncar graph utility they are all color graphs and want print them out the printers own are postscript and anyone who have experiences this please tell mail will very nice someone knows how convert those cgm files into gif pcx bmp will helps lot
comp.graphics	needed non interactive gif cropper for have group gif images that each contain small images the same place all the images need program crop out the small images new gif file all the programs can find make use the mouse keyboard define the cropping coordinates there program out there for that can take the crop coordinates the command line reply max slinky nyu edu david max
comp.graphics	dec graphics tools applying for nsf grant buy equipment for laboratory the lab will need support pascal with graphics tools can run the lab either dec equipment you are familiar with appropriate products software hardware and precise prices please contact shai lcc stonehill edu are interested any available acadmic discounts also anyone runs lab using similar software hardware would very interested hearing your opinions its success thanks shai simonson stonehill college easton
comp.graphics	email address ithaca hoops ithaca technical support can reached tech support ithaca com phone eric wagner asel ithaca software skylane eric ithaca com oakland flyers
comp.graphics	head model not again groan sorry post question which seems crop quite regularly this group however have yet get specific and usefull context answer where can get hold data for head what looking for simple polyon description head face which can easily converted for used with pov raytracer polygons well placing file ftp today that contains several polygonal descriptions head face skull vase etc the format the files list vertices normals and triangles there are various resolutions and the name the data file includes the number polygons phred vbl contains polygons order get the data via ftp the following ftp taurus nps navy mil login anonymous guest the password pub dabro binary get cyber tar once you get the data onto your workstation uncompress data tar tar xvof data tar you have any questions please let know george dabro dabro taurus nps navy mil george dabrowski cyberware labs dabro taurus nps navy mil
comp.graphics	piclab processing half gif been playing with program called piclab modify some gif files the problem keeps displaying only the image starting from the top displays leaves blank then down another etc anyone know what doing wrong there another piece software should use instead thanks for your tolerance
comp.graphics	cgm files article meyer may ibsen geomatic meyer geomatic harald martens meyer writes the only book found the cgm format cgm and cgi arnold bono from springer verlag isbn not the best book read though well there the standards document from the faq how order standards documents the american national standards institute sells ansi standards and also iso international standards their sales office mailing address broadway helps you have the complete name and number some useful numbers know cgm computer graphics metafile iso gks graphical kernel system ansi you want viewer try downloading ralcgm from unix hensa misc unix ralcgm ralcgm tar you might also want look gplot from the folks the pittsburgh supercomputer center fish around calpe psc edu pretty nifty spl steve lamont sciviguy spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource san diego jolla naked lunch natural eat reality sandwiches but allegories are much lettuce don hide the madness allen ginsberg
comp.graphics	help there here looking for some help friend interior decor designer from thailand trying find some graphics software any suggestion which software buy where buy and how much costs likes the most sophisticated software the more features has the better thanks advance
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	why mouse jumpy mouse article apr cti com rlister cti com russell lister writes from rlister cti com russell lister subject why mouse jumpy mouse date fri apr gmt ecktons ucs byu edu sean eckton writes have microsoft serial mouse and using mouse com was using think but switched see was any better vertical motion nice and smooth but horizontal motion bad sometimes can click something because mouse jumps around can moving the mouse the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for bit then jump the right then move smoothly for bit then jump again maybe this time the left about inch this crazy have never had much trouble with mouse before anyone have any solutions does microsoft think they are what everyone should just venting steam seen this problem several times was always the result the little rollers inside the mouse becomming dirty they are good collecting grime the solution simple remove the ball reveal the two rollers carefully clean them and the ball dennis
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos window macros article apr csd newshost stanford edu herrod stanford edu stephen herrod writes does anyone know program that will record keyboard sequences that windowed dos box would like have something that starts telnet program and then logs into accounts windows recorder doesn seem able record the key sequences thanks steve think you would need dos macro program superkey borland comes mind don think windows capable sending keystrokes dos window what you want sounds like security problem though tom paladin world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	program manager problem does anyone know how configure dos app progman that only one instance can running time really appreciate some help how this would prefer responses through email not big deal least through email well posting thank you james lee jelee hamlet ucdavis edu swear life and love that will never live for the sake another man nor ask another man live for mine john galt atlas shrugged
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	actix video card drivers for windows apr jarvis csri toronto edu wongda eecg toronto edu daniel wong writes looking for the latest drivers for the actix graphics accelerator card the driver currently using version and doesn support more than colors mode even you have memory the bbs support for actix unbelievable they are still using bps modem will take you hours download the drivers hurts when you are calling long distance there any ftp site that has collection video drivers for windows btw anyone using this card and how you like far good but where are these drivers daniel wong uoft anybody actix listening upload the dang drivers ftp site pleeeeeeese cheers kym kym burgemeister department mechanical engineering university adelaide south australia facs mail kburg aelmg adelaide edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	postscript dpi using windows printer driver would like print file with output postscript file later would like take this postscript file machine with attached hewlett packard laser printer and print the document dots per inch resolution would like use this method print from wordperfect for windows and from image processing program that can output images postscript here the problem the windows postscript printer driver pscript drv doesn allow specify dpi fact the setup dialog for this driver does have pull down menu for resolution but the only choice given the menu not really useful menu any ideas david arnstein arnstein iis sun com international imaging systems milpitas california
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	workspace managers for win locations article apr bert eecs uic edu you write cah tactix rain com chris huey writes jamie scuglia jamie zikzak apana org wrote thanks all those people who recommended workspace managers for windows found shareware workspace managers from australia windows archive monu monash edu which mirrors some sites the the three found were workspaces wspace zip review deleted workshift wrksft zip review deleted bigdesk and backmenu backdesk zip review deleted really appreciate this information however given that don have direct internet access which means don have archie access must resort using ftpmail this means that need the site name and the directory where these workspace managers are located backdesk zip cica but not sure the whole directory another throw into the running topdesk alsow cica but not sure where more complicated then backdesk but found more stable and more usefull recomend people who have already used virtual desktop yeh free copyright microsoft and sanford staab carl zmola cicero spc uchicago edu here are some usefull applications and locations and other cica mirrors the desktop directory wrksft zip wokshift graphical virtual desktop ver email author about version desk zip desktop tools for windows backmenu bigdesk later version than backdesk topdesk zip virtual windows for windows finder zip mac finder clone for windows works well with backmenu also look out for superbar due out soon allows button bars added almost any application paul blackman pwb science canberra edu water research centre pwb aerg canberra edu faculty applied science university canberra australia spend little love and get high lenny kravitz
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	setting slip client under dos and windows long have been posting monthly how setup slip client posts for few months lots work and imminent graduation have come the way posting one these for march earlier this month for which apologize this file includes information writing script for university minnesota phone and also batch file hack that lets you use other packet drivers with phone for additions modifications and corrections can reached ashok biochemistry cwru edu best wishes ashok begin slip txt based experiences setting slip under dos and windows here are comments setting slip this environment thank the trumpet beta testers and the cwru slip beta testers for their comments configuring your modem turn off dtr have disable dtr because the communication program that use dial slip server qmodem drops dtr when exit the program and therefore hangs the line you use program like kermit conex establish the slip connection then this need not done these programs not necessarily hangup the line when you exit note you use univ minn phone dial and establish slip connection you not need turn off dtr dial and establish the slip connection first this can done automatically you use program like phone from the university minnesota which will dial and establish slip connection then load the slip packet driver the phone scripting language simple and phone scripts can easily written configure phone work with other slip server addition while the only packet driver that phone works with umslip currently easy write batch file hack that lets phone work with other packet drivers there section phone the document with both script and batch file examples configuring the slip drivers there are five slip packet drivers commonly available cslipper exe peter tattam compressed slip driver slipper exe peter tattam slip driver slip com crynwr driver like phil burn modified driver ethersl com crynwr driver ethernet simulation over slip umslip com univ minnesota driver based slip these four vastly prefer slipper exe over slip com ethersl com for the following reasons much faster even though modem has just uart while using etherslip slip umslip myself and several others have noticed that the clock gets messed after performing long ftp transfer supports pktmux when used ethernet simulation mode when used ethernet simulation mode slipper seem work with every tcp application that have tested with instructions for slipper exe and you not use phone load slipper your autoexec bat file according instructions for instance you have bis modem com slipper com vec baud you use dos tcp applications win dos boxes then use the double ended packet driver shim winpkt com this creates virtual packet driver dos applications native mode dos applications windows dos boxes and windows applications can all use this virtual driver winpkt com you use qvt net load pktint com next qvt net configured qvtnet ini use the interrupt pktint com instructions for slip com try getting version slip driver philip burns northwestern university has modified slip com driver that better hardware handshaking this driver distributed along with nupop load the driver after establishing the slip connection modem bis modem com here how would load the driver slip slip discussed above you use dos tcp applications windows dos boxes you probably want use winpkt com winpkt com you use winqvt net load pktint com pktint com instructions for ethersl com you choose use ethersl com instead slip com the instructions are exactly the same with one crucial difference you will have delete the line device vcd from the enh section system ini this will interfere with running regular windows comm applications such crosstalk and you will get lots dropped characters etc these applications this therefore not recommended etherslip would loaded ethersl configuring windows make the following modifications the system ini file enh section list all your com ports with their addresses and interrupts com base com irq com base com irq com base com irq this can also done from within windows control panel but double clicking the ports icon give the port which your modem attached generous com buffer com buffer iii change the com port autoassign value for the com port that you wish use for your modem zero this the amount time that windows waits seconds before handing control that com port another application you use winqvt net and then want switch from one session another and this value the default value seconds you are will get gpf and windows will crash com autoassign this can also done from within windows control panel double click enhanced and under device contention set the device contention for the com port your modem never warn additional notes what you are assigned different address for each slip session fortunate that our campus slip server assigns each user permanent address not have worry about editing qvtnet ini each time that establish slip connection you are assigned new address every occasion that you dial please try use bootp aware software and let bootp the configuration for you however qvtnet not bootp aware and rarp will not work over slip connection get qvtnet working situation such this you must the following edit the qvtnet ini file let the net section look like this net name netmask whatever appropriate for you arptime packet vector whatever appropriate save the changes and then write protect this file attrib qvtnet ini start your slip connection and remember the name and address that you are assigned each time you start qvt net the general configuration dialog box will open enter the name and address and you were assigned for that session click and you should and running the changes you make will not saved qvtnet ini write protected more elegant solution the problem dynamic slip address assignment provided victor menayang victor ccwf utexas edu victor uses the program bootpq semi automate qvtnet preparation bootpq used inquire the assigned which then saved file called myip another file noip essentially complete qvtnet ini file that lacks the address the final step myip and noip are copied into single qvtnet ini file example victor batch file provided below slipper com pktint com bootpq myip bootpq copy net myip noip com qvtnet qvtnet ini del myip echo off echo echo ready run winqvtnet for questions and more details about bootpq please contact victor menayang victor ccwf utexas edu qpc software attempting add bootp capability winqvt net how you use pktmux over slip pktmux will not work over the slip com packet driver and crashes immediately used with ethersl com pktmux will work with slipper exe when slipper used ethernet simulation mode example this configuration shown below the latest release pktmux and important that you use this version you want use virtual packet drivers with applications like trumpet for windows released very shortly from autoexec bat slipper com vec baud ether packet driver pktmux pktmux loaded for virtual packet drivers pktdrv first virtual packet driver used for qvt net pktint com qvt net pktint com pktdrv pktdrv for use native dos wintrumpet additional virtual packet drivers can loaded directly from within windows dos boxes for example pif file load popmail directed the file popmail bat this what popmail bat reads like pktdrv loads virtual packet driver popmail popmail pktdrv unloads the packet driver exit causes the dos window close have similar batch files that load other dos tcp applications like gopher experience that pktmux works fine even the virtual packet drivers two independent virtual dos sessions are loaded the same software interrupt for example within two different dos boxes one for popmail and the other for gopher the virtual packet driver pktdrv loaded each instance how much does pktmux degrade the performance slipper have bis bis modem running windows with reasonably fast video card ati graphics ultra under these conditions when have three virtual packet drivers loaded and being used follows driver qvtnet ftp client session driver one dos window cutcp session driver another dos window trumpet for dos get ftp transfer rates sec while transferring compressed files this rate comparable that which get with slip loaded packet driver and where single tcp session active cslipper used packet driver and single session active get transfer rates sec the same files while there about degradation the performance slipper for the benefits being able use pktmux outweigh the performance hit slipper and ethernet simulation mode ethernet simulation mode slipper ver works with all the applications that have tested with one two applications that required ethernet simulation balked slipper but even these rare problems have been resolved with ver when slipper used ethernet simulation mode and used with pktmux get some error message the qvtnet console window that reads incorrect packet type bad version number this does not seem prevent qvtnet from functioning although cannot comment loss performance what can you your dos tcp application does not work with slipper ethernet simulation mode the rare event that you find package that does not work with slipper ethernet simulation mode first contact the author peter tattam peter psychnet psychol utas edu and let him know chances are that can fix the meanwhile you can try the following not know kosher but worked when had problems with slipper ver slipper loaded described above under the pktmux section load ethersl com run the application and then terminate ethersl com this also works within windows virtual dos boxes however packet driver like ethersl can used only one virtual dos box time for example here batch file run grateful med medical reference retrieval program developed the national library medicine ethersl loads etherslip search termin terminates etherslip exit closes the dos box and returns windows you use this method cautious about one thing don have any active pktmux dos sessions open the same time after closing the ethersl window you can run your pktmux dos sessions with problem btw the example above grateful med works with problems with slipper ver phone script files the documentation that accompany phone provide good instructions writing script files get phone dial slip servers other than the university minnesota server for example here script that use dial cisco server the university that attend background start slip connection dial our terminal server and login with username and password after doing start slip session with the following command slip username slip dialin cwru edu followed password again here then the relevant portion the phone cmd script file cwru slip login script ashok aiyar last revised procedure host cwru login timeout cwru terminal server not responding message cwru slip login script version message waiting for slip server respond quiet expect verification message request for user verification received from cwru message sending your user name and password quiet off expect username send expect password private send reject access denied your user name password was not accepted timeout slip server did not respond your validation request expect cwru send slip timeout slip server did not respond slip command expect hostname address send slip dialin cwru edu timeout slip server did not respond hostname reject bad address incorrect hostname expect password send reject access denied password not accepted timeout expect header compression will match your system message login cwru slip server successful wait endprocedure host cwru login procedure host cwru logout nothing special needs done logout endprocedure host cwru logout end script file how use packet drivers other than umslip with phone the quick answer there clean way below batch file hack that wrote use phone with other packet drivers this example the packet driver peter tattam cslipper use batch file like this you must know the parameters with which you plan use the packet driver interrupt vector baud rate port address and irq this batch file requires umslip com cslipper exe and termin com the same directory your path all that the batch file does let you dial the slip connection using phone load the appropriate packet driver hangup the connection and unload the driver when you are done being cwruslip bat echo off rem this batch file ugly hack minn slip bat rem awaiting version slipper that can directly interact rem with phone rem cwruslip bat file used with phone exe start slip rem connection cwru rem last modified ashok aiyar echo off cls goto start start goto help help goto help setup goto setup dial goto forced hangup goto forceh quit goto forceh help goto help setup goto setup dial goto forced quit goto forceh goto bogus goto unload forceh termin umslip nul phone force hangup goto unload slipper termin rem the following line must changed reflect the com port rem irq baud rate and software interrupt packet cslipper com vec baud ether goto end forced termin umslip nul phone force dial goto slipper setup termin umslip nul phone setup goto help unload termin goto end bogus echo not valid command echo try cwruslip help for list valid commands echo help echo echo case western reserve university slip setup echo using univ minnesota phone echo echo cwruslip setup modem settings phone number username etc echo echo cwruslip dial dial and establish the slip connection echo cwruslip quit hangup the phone and unload the driver echo cwruslip help this screen echo end end cwruslip bat where get what peter tattam programs are archived ftp utas edu slipper and the trumpet set programs winqvt net generally archived most windows ftp sites including ftp cica indiana edu ncsa telnet archived ftp ncsa uiuc edu nupop archived ftp acns nwu edu popmail slipdisk phone and gopher are archived boombox micro umn edu end slip txt ashok aiyar mail ashok biochemistry cwru edu department biochemistry tel cwru school medicine cleveland ohio fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	please refresh internet access compuserve article syshtg gsusgi gsu edu syshtg gsusgi gsu edu tom gillman writes cheong solomon technet scstech admin writes sometime ago there are some discussions gaining compuserve access thru the internet but seem misplace those articles can someone please refresh where which site can telnet gain access send message compuserve user via internet mail enter the mail mode and address your receiver follows compuserve com the number the receiver compuserve number the users number contains comma anything other than period change period
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	msdos prompt problem having really bothersome problem using the msdos prompt windows open dos box when done with the dos box cant get back windows alt enter shrink the box use exit close the screen goes black and have control alt delete until kill windows get couple screens about app not responding think things are still alive under the black screen because alt tab cycle through the running apps get flashes text but then the black returns this persists even the machine powered and off working with app developed using borland application frameworks and seems work fine hardware with meg ram not network video tseng vga dos reinstalled windows couple time but the problem comes back using temporary swapping for virtual memory would really really appreciate any hints anyone might offer thanks jim cant
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	what does the bmp format mean article robertsa unix tcd robertsa unix tcd andrew roberts writes what exactly does the windows bitmap format look like mean how the data stored width height colours bitmap data couldn find anything ths user manual there any other reference material which would give this information thanks andrew well this only guess goes the true meaning bit map then holds where pixel number direction pixel number the dir colour michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how make windows grp file reflect directory well ain always right but never been wrong
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	newsgroup archive this newsgroup archived anywhere beyond the normal expiration dates say for the last months more thanks tom paladin world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	trouble with sound blaster pro drivers article kaz vincent iastate edu kaz iastate edu errington shroud writes recently windows has starting giving the error sound blaster pro requires newer version windows has worked correctly for long time and don know what the problem could thanks had this problem when initially installed sound blaster pro and here what the tech support told they told look for the files that are stated the readme file from the win subdirectory the soudblaster directory now look the system ini file and any them say device xxxxxxx than change device xxxxxxx thats should work was your system ini file erased for some reason that would the only reason that would think that windoes giving you the error now tony annese claebaur shell portal com claebaur cup portal com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	hiragana katakana fonts newsgroups comp windows misc subject hiragana katakana fonts keywords hiragana katakana truetype japanese where can obtain truetype hiragana and katakana japanese phonetic character fonts note can receive mail the address the header but cannot send
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	standard and enhanced question why win sometimes finicky have new dell mhz megs ram windows was working just great had bus mouse and mother board problem dell replaced the mouse gave newer mouse driver for windows and replaced the motherboard just prior this problem windows would only load every other time would get the logo and either would into windows lock this was very consistent every other time now with the new motherboard and all still does the same thing the computer less than one month old first worked fine can get into windows each time now with the win command this forces standard mode things seem run slower mainly use windows apps but standard mode there virtual mem plus slower loaded windows still does the same thing should first delete everything all windows dir did not because have much added sub dir etc really puzzling why enhanced mode would not load each time but consistently every other time standard mode each time any thoughts comments artin this communication sent artin university arizona tucson cleveland freenet edu mlinsenb ccit arizona edu mlinsenb arizvms death has been dead for about years follow the king kings
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	replacement for program manager and file manager there could someone please suggest one the better shareware replacements for win program manager and file manager and which ftp site are they located thanks advance for mail response yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	video cards with bnc connectors sam uky edu mike mills writes hello just recently bought nec order get the highest possible quality and refresh rates like know there are any accelerator cards with bnc connectors opposed the usual sub connector not know any vga type cards that have bnc outputs but extron sells vga bnc cable set that works good with you are trying optimize the display with good video card try contacting get nine use and like the level card thanks for any information mike mills mail sam uky edu rutgers uunet ukma sam math sciences dept mike ukpr uky edu work home mark marlow marlow world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	true type font problem repost please help word doesn show the period centred character indicate spaces use the ttfonts from coreldraw our editors need able see how many spaces are text but the character displayed large hollow box they overlap each other and characters each side which useless believe the character used the period centred this character shows with the windows charmap display the hollow box which tends confirm this have edited the corel font with fontmonger and changing the font graphics for the character makes difference the font output charmap altering the paragraph cedilla does alter their font graphics displayed however the character used indicate spaces the period centred character has anyone been able get this character displayed from coreldraw ttf russ sharp russ deakin edu fax deakin university school engineering technology geelong australia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows zip unzip are using pkzip and interested hear from people who have used one the many windows programs that call these which ones are available and does any one stand out amongst the rest there full windows version that does not call the dos pkzip pkunzip commands russ sharp russ deakin edu fax deakin university school engineering technology geelong australia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	boot sometimes fails sometimes when boot windows after the windows logo comes han using dos and doublespace and meg temp swap file uncompressed drive but when press the reset button the computer windows boots fine why this dos matthew gillard blessed are they who run around computer systems engineering circles for they shall trobe university known wheels
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	what does the bmp format mean andrew roberts robertsa unix tcd wrote what exactly does the windows bitmap format look like mean how the data stored width height colours bitmap data couldn find anything ths user manual there any other reference material which would give this information thanks andrew try the windows multimedia development kit has most the file formats defined
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	stealth video drivers article doug sun sws uiuc edu doug sun sws uiuc edu doug ward writes recently purchased diamond stealth video card and received the wrong drivers does anyone know where can ftp the windows video drivers for the stealth tried the drivers cica and they don work the right drivers are the diamond bbs but the file almost meg and would take while download them baud any information would appreciated please contact doug sun sws uiuc edu thank you doug ward have the same problem with diamond stealth vram card daniel
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	driver wanted hello looking for driver for ibm color ink jet printer any pointers are welcome thanks advance ralf huebner informatik uni stuttgart
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	what does the bmp format mean michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu wrote article robertsa unix tcd robertsa unix tcd andrew roberts writes what exactly does the windows bitmap format look like mean how the data stored width height colours bitmap data couldn find anything ths user manual there any other reference material which would give this information well this only guess goes the true meaning bit map then holds where pixel number direction pixel number the dir colour come fellows the format quite plainly explained the manuals the programmer reference volume messages structures and macros msc dev kit for should also the borland manuals pages depending what you need first there the bitmapfileheader struct then the bitmapinfo which contains the bitmapinfoheader and the rgbquad and then the bitmap data and there also example among the example files sdk hope this helps yes have some prior knowledge this there nothing dangerous these dragons they are totally harmless but opinion that kicking them might not the right way test shut and run pjsinc sunrise oulu pjsinc phoenix oulu pjsinc tolsun oulu possible that there are some opinions above they must all mine
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	summary canon deskjet hello again about week and one half ago posted query looking for people feelings the inkjet family printers specifically comparison between the canon bubblejet and the hewlett packard deskjet many people asked post the summary account all the postings and mail received below original query and the responses received have not deleted any part the responses only the headers and signatures you can extract what you find necessary some people asked for unbiased account however the very nature the question suggests favoritism and biased comments you must extract the information you believe unbiased and fair representation each printer there are wide range comments each has its own value there was clear winner some like the especially its price performance ratio others preferred the durability and reliability the deskjet the original inkjet with proven drivers and solid background two new inkjet printers have drawn some attention new printer introduced hewlett packard later this year around summertime and addition the epson product line their first inkjet you will find that after the initial purchase the costs filling replacing the ink cartridges are about the same this largely depends where you purchase the fills replacements shop around first since this aspect will most likely dominate the cost your printer one mentioned approx how many sheets each ink cartridge will print but suspect they are roughly equal about sheets laser printers will sheets per toner cartridge well that brief research summary personal research enjoy hello fellow netters asking for your collected wisdom help decide which printer should purchase the canon bubblejet the deskjet thought rather than trust the salesperson would benefit more from relying those who use these printers daily and use them their fullest potential and figure all you will know their benefits and pitfalls better than any salesperson now would greatly appreciate any information you could render the dpi the canon bubblejet the hewlett packard deskjet dpi which faster there noticeable print quality difference particularly graphics which will handle large documents better pages more any personal experience either will appreciated here which works better under windows any driver problems etc cost memory font packages toner cartridges etc basically your personal experiences with either these machines highly desirable both good and bad well bought the about month ago the start their rebate program that printer ends and bought from computer discount warehouse because their price couldn beat anywhere looked and think hot printer just using regular copier paper produced fantastic results just high quality mode compared the output micrografx designer legal size drawing with type done with the same drawing printed laserjet iid and was amazed how well could read the small print the printing speed was several seconds faster the which amazing considering that the has ram installed measured the time from when the printer first indicated was receiving data used print manager windows showed the output several people work and one manager bought one immediately for his office and two other engineers placed their orders too you need cdw phone number delivery was two days good luck craig witkowski ceng maccvm corp mot com motorola communications electronics inc glen rock own deskjet performance isn spectacular under windows using truetype fonts but neither the canon from what have seen quality for the very much dependent paper quality standard photo copy paper the characters have slightly frayed edges but better quality distinction type paper things look better for most applications find copy paper fine still better than dot matrix comes with windows driver which seems pass print manager has few intelli fonts which are scaleable fonts probably faster than truetype but haven really tried them out can get ram font cartridges but unless the speed truetype problem wouldn bother the ram cartridges can used buffer soft fonts only for graphics bmp images etc the can put into dither mode via the supplied win driver there number dither options such scatter pattern etc the manual gives recommendations depending the type image being printed text not good this mode problem arises when you have document which contains both graphic and text the range tones for graphic images isn brilliant but think that more limitation with inkjet printers general from what have seen the canon similar most respects however printer definitely worth looking the new inkjet from epson this printer faster cheaper and capable producing laser like quality normal copier paper can remember the model something think purchased days before the epson was released here the introductory price the epson was the same the here new zealand about month ago got canon absolutely love incredibly fast except for printing from pspice don know you ever stuff with that not most the stuff print either from microsoft word for windows just plain text the only problems had are printing headers footers the printer freaked out and printing cheap paper lots streaks normal copy paper works great with you can only tell not laser printed holding less than twelve inches from your face that you nearsighted like the printer comes with its own driver for windows have other complaints the printer also can act just like some epson another for those archaic software packages that haven written driver for yet the teeny weeny footprint real plus too and you purchase between now and may you get rebate from canon bought mine from store called compusa and the price now have friend who has the you are looking also prints very well and everyone has drivers for but very slow hope helped dpi sure looks great heather stehman article apr schbbs mot com ceng maccvm corp mot com craig witkowski writes message apr csd newshost stanford edu kayman csd stanford edu robert kayman writes hello fellow netters asking for your collected wisdom help decide which printer should purchase the canon bubblejet the deskjet thought rather than trust the salesperson would benefit more from relying those who use these printers daily and use them their fullest potential and figure all you will know their benefits and pitfalls better than any salesperson various questions deleted well bought the about month ago the start their rebate program that printer ends and bought from computer discount warehouse because their price couldn beat anywhere looked and think hot printer just using regular copier paper produced fantastic results just high quality mode compared the output micrografx designer legal size drawing with type done with the same drawing printed laserjet iid and was amazed how well could read the small print the printing speed was several seconds faster the which amazing considering that the has ram installed measured the time from when the printer first indicated was receiving data used print manager windows guess have some experience with both have work and deskjet home prefer the deskjet the printing speed and quality are similar tested both with text and graphics before buying the deskjet for home the feature that sets the deskjet apart the driver support many applications the ends emulating the epson ibm proprinter get work with many non windows apps and this will the case for long time the design superior you just want use cut paper the deskjet quieter and the ink cartridges are quite bit cheaper due the number deskjets out there comparision the bjs just worth mike mattix agricultural group monsanto box luling internet address dmmatt bigez monsanto com yes there the landscape mode printing problem but does not present problem windows the windows printer driver handles the translation actually thought some other points after posted the note the deskjet has unprintable area approximately inch around the paper the bubblejet does not you are right about the graphics resolutions tested the printers with the applications had access wordperfect harvard graphics wingif paintshop pro and paintbrush and could not tell difference fact one the deskjet windows drivers gives you significant control over the contrast and density the printer hence controlling the amount ink you put down the bubblejet did not had imaging software test the printers with and had comparision there finally wanted sheet feeding that configuration the bubblejet cost approximately more than the deskjet went through pretty thorough evaluation and chose the deskjet when spent own money btw replacing the with deskjet work this month anyway regards mike mattix group monsanto luling spent some time comparing the two ended getting the bubblejet versus the our reasons were the seemed have worse banding than the canon dpi versus felt could see the difference price canon has rebate program going the moment the was our choice over the could have pages the feeder the holds only pages think you can see pages the haven done anything big with the but its performance seems reasonable under windows know that the microsoft bbs has newer windows driver than comes with the printer but don know how compares also the driver included with the printer canon whereas don know where the microsoft bbs one comes from microsoft hope this helps thomas frauenhofer yyw tvf cci com uunet uupsi cci tvf tvf rit edu mandlebratwurst the meal that eats itself altough sometimes also salesperson not suppost study would recommend buy the the printing quality bit better but you you got much more possiblities don forget the engine least years the marked the canon engine witch also used other new bubblejet printers like the epson ones quite recently available now would greatly appreciate any information you could render the dpi the canon bubblejet the hewlett packard deskjet dpi which faster there noticeable print quality difference particularly graphics which will handle large documents better seen during short demonstration from someone who tryed sell canon printers times the same picture one printed with the one with the canon the other with the and there was difference printing quality the canon was bit better greetz kris when decided needed quiet printers our hospital looked inkjet printers they have near laser quality speed and they are quiet use both deskjets and the canon prefer the paper handling qualities the deskjets but feel the canons have superior print quality the ideal would canon with sheet feeder however did end buying deskjet for home use got too good deal anyway are using canons high volume areas and they are holding very well out deskjets and have only had one problem with deskjet and that was taken care very quickly nate whenever buy anything look what the experts say pick out the top few and then buy whatever criteria are the most apt been unusually flush lately begging letter please and done this few times including about four months ago with inkjet printers can remember much about the process except that read about three reviews inkjets and that the was always near the top bought the because the added dimension colour intend build multi media machine some stage and have just bought colour scanner towards that although haven used the colour thing earnest yet tried out couple windows bitmaps and was pleased with the result note that even though you can now get the the one with both colour and mono with need change the cartridge the and are still readily available least the the following are views experience don know anything about the canon except that came away from reviews and replies posting similar yours with the idea that the offered the best performance price ratio believe are the originals the field not always the ideal place but the market still young one assumes they have the expertise the worth the extra operation mono perfectly acceptable and get good crisp reproduction fonts from windows used work for monotype when they still manufactured typesetters before their american owners closed them down and can tell you that terms definition dpi pretty poor anyway dpi just bit less poor the comes with reasonable set drivers you buy invest the additional ram pack pretty slow with god knows what like without actually work germany and home the not daily use would say that apart from not reading the manual properly and having really dumb problem the start easy peasy operate hope this use regards david just bought the thought the price couldn beat with rebate thru and far comparable even superior the deskjet print quality speed per page rate seems faster don have figures don print long docs though quality think the graphics quality excellent print quality excellent well unless you use small fonts and hold close you can see lot more jaggies than laserjet the dpi offset little less accuracy holding the page print head place would imagine large docs not room the standard model for whole lotta pages manual says though haven tried drivers problems under win yet winword doesn want print the envelopes the same way the canon does though know nothing add costs daniel hartung dhartung chinet chinet com ask about rotaract the deskjet slow this comparison the other printers mentioned have idea how the bubblejet compares the interface between win and the printer just dandy not had any problems with just bought printer couple days ago compared the sample print deskjet and knew that the wasn for the pretty fast and really prints with good quality can compare with the laserjet iiid postscript and they look almost identical depending the kind paper don have problems with the ink not being dry seems dry very fast probably within second since canon giving rebate until the end may really good buy sean eckton computer support representative college fine arts and communications wow funny you should ask this little behind news reading know this may late just purchased the canon bubblejet last night was really worried that wouldn like but the print quality and noise level fantastic printed quite few documents with lots graphics and printed damn near laser quality you can tell not laser unless you get inches from the page problems with drivers the printer came with the driver diskette which good because was beginning panic when couldn findi under windows wordperfect works well under both have yet install word for windows don know how works with them had deskjet work last year was good printer well felt was awfully slow and much noisier than the bubblejet won say the bubblejet much better but really like more just worth brett sincerely robert kayman kayman stanford edu cpa stanford edu theory theory and practice are the same practice they are not you mean you want the revised revision the original revised revision revised
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	question eisa video board performance have eisa machine and just not understand why most eisa video cards only match the performance their isa counterparts for instance the eisa orchid pro designer iis only about fast the isa diamond speedstar plus which isn what would call fast don understand why eisa video cards aren group the same level performance local bus cards given that eisa video cards have bit bus move data around instead isa bits since they are not why would anyone included pay higher cost for eisa video card when its performance better than and often worse that much cheaper isa video board such diamond speedstar from magazine think recent report know that ati makes pretty fast eisa video card but around which just about double what wallet will allow spend and for could get diamond viper and still have left over course have get local bus mother board too can anyone shed some light confusion frustration thanks christopher wroten cfw world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	need longer filenames article rfdkqinn zephyr grace cri maystonr grace cri richard mayston writes path kth sunic pipex uunet noc near net howland reston ans net wupost waikato comp vuw zephyr grace cri zephyr grace cri usenet newsgroups comp windows misc subject need longer filenames message rfdkqinn zephyr grace cri from maystonr grace cri richard mayston date mon apr gmt sender maystonr grace cri references apr guinness idbsu edu infoserv com distribution world organization industrial research ltd new zealand nntp posting host rmayston grace cri lines article infoserv com hfeldman infoserv com howard mitchell feldman writes apr guinness idbsu edu lhighley gozer idbsu edu larry paul highley wrote there utility out there that will let use filenames longer than the standard format yep called yep you can use any type unix maybe vms buy mac something you want longer filenames for your documents heard wordprocessor for windows which let you assign long names files those long filenames could only seen from that programs open save dialogs though maybe someone knows more about this wordprocessor than
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	standard and enhanced question cleveland freenet edu martin linsenbigler writes why win sometimes finicky have new dell mhz megs ram windows was working just great had bus mouse and mother board problem dell replaced the mouse gave newer mouse driver for windows and replaced the motherboard just prior this problem windows would only load every other time would get the logo and either would into windows lock this was very consistent every other time much deleted any thoughts comments sounds like memory conflict problem which can cause truly weird symptoms like these call dell tech support better post them cserve you have account and get the memory range used video ram your machine the block windows from using those ranges with emmexclude statement the enh section system ini you probably should include statement excluding the same range from emm whatever memory manager you use config sys dell installs windows the machines they ship but the installation doesn consist much more than copying the files hard disk you still have the work and the fact that you have the problem enhanced mode but not standard strongly suggests high memory conflict
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	program manager two questions from article kou raijbh axion uucp wefiii axion uucp warren fridy iii apr vpnet chi lisbon vpnet chi gerry swetsky writes can you set short cut key return the program manager know ctl esc esc will but rather set can avoid the task list and get back the with alt you might try the recorder and make micro now isn that just amazing seriously add program manager your startup group and define shortcut for works
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	screenreading programs for windows use with screen access program ibm screen reader and speech synthesizer accent would like find out about screen access programs for the windows platform heard that were couple them out now under beta testing would like find out addresses prices etc thanks raman raman raman cornell edu tel office upson hall department computer science cornell university ithaca res bryant avenue ithaca
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	looking for text search engine looking for any information regarding text search engines specifically prefer source binaries which will run windows and unix environment scanning either flat files common structures references shareware commercial implementations welcome please reply via email summarize desired thanx doc
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help word sucks autonum getting desperate have report that must finished midnight and doesn seem have what appears must use the autonum field for numbering chapters but document distributed amongst several files just can find way make word start the numbering something else than course everything fine the first file but pretty stupid when all chapters are numbered please you have any solution this except from putting all one document mail immediately working report hardly have any time read news please mail all answers will heartly welcome advance thanx lot frode rinnans trondheim tlf bjaastad idt unit and the day god created rock and roll avard jastad
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows zip unzip from ccastco prism gatech edu costas malamas subject windows zip unzip date apr gmt article sol deakin russ deakin russ sharp writes are using pkzip and interested hear from people who have used one the many windows programs that call these there full windows version that does not call the dos pkzip pkunzip commands russ sharp russ deakin edu fax there wunarchive the replacement wunzip only extracts but ssupports pkzip does not require pkz unzip order work and ccosts only register
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how redirect print manager file hpcc comp windows misc nctu edu swh apr hello who can tell where can find the shareware which can capture windows output printer mananger want capture the output laser jet iii though the postscript can setup print file but can try dos redirect program but they can work windows thankx for any help you can print file from any other printer just into the printers section your control panel select the printer you want direct file and click connect then choose file the port connect the printer when you print from any application that printer windows will prompt you for file name for the file into which you want capture the printout pretty easy good luck perry reed perry reed desk com young foolish lucky love
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	auto check boxes have question about the autocheck boxes windows possibility let the boxes have several different colors the same time frode kvam name frode kvam univ university trondheim dept informatics mail frode ifi unit snail mail lademoens kirkealle trondheim voice beware programmers who carry screwdrivers
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	boot sometimes fails article apr lugb latrobe edu lux latrobe edu matthew gillard writes subject boot sometimes fails from lux latrobe edu matthew gillard date wed apr gmt sometimes when boot windows after the windows logo comes han using dos and doublespace and meg temp swap file uncompressed drive but when press the reset button the computer windows boots fine why this dos matthew gillard blessed are they who run around computer systems engineering circles for they shall trobe university known wheels dos never used the area efff well some others you have any cards that use this are such lan card you might get this problem use the efff your emm exe line config sys you run memmaker then instruct retain inclusions and exclusions
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	printer security anyone know good software package that will allow keep track who printing what and when there any way get print manager keep log there print manager replacement that will this how about package that will only allow access the system for people password file looked chastity but will let you log without password and doesn keep tabs who got and when any help will greatly appreciated mark juric programs mjuric uga edu university georgia athens georgia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	why not using dos anymore mark woodruff cda ucf bitnet wrote this morning while was working research paper had reboot hung dos program that did disk from within windows when machine finished rebooting found windows directory and about two thirds other directories were irreversibly corrupted stuff deleted this sounds like what happened month ago was stacked with stacker run dos suddenly everything hung and most the got corrupted directories changed into unreadable files with funny names other words probably just the doubledisk part dos that troublesome now use stacker and far have had trouble elisabeth bull mail eliza swix nvg unit
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	need longer filenames there utility out there that will let use filenames longer than the standard format yep called yep you can use any type unix maybe vms buy mac something you want longer filenames for your documents heard wordprocessor for windows which let you assign long names files those long filenames could only seen from that programs open save dialogs though maybe someone knows more about this wordprocessor than rember correctly lotus notes gives this possiblity among other things tom softsys
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows help needed with error everybody out there just got the third beta release disk march windowsnt and still not able boot that system the final step achieved the display error but since this the beta release the sdk for and not microsoft does not include manual the itself explaining what this error means what can get rid configuration mainboard hauppauge rev with socket for megs memory ami eisa scsi controller series latest bios cache hard disk syquest removable disk toshiba rom drive proaudio spectrum plus longshine ethernet card lcs comp graphics card meg colorimage the system running fine under dos and windows etc but trying the setup for automatic setup does not recognize controller aha compat when adding manually complains not finging any rom drive the manual setup winnt does not copy everything from does not recognize controller but takes manually setup continues until tries boot then starts loading several stuff from disk seems fing the but messing with that damned error took away all cards not essential but that did not make any effect anybody got any ideas help would greatly appreciated michael linder mlinder tonet physik berlin institute optics tech univ berlin germany
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	terminal setup how new windows and wanted know how setup the terminal program have modem com but when try configure inside windows get the messare unsupported com can anyone help sam
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	more cool bmp files article apr dlss james dlss james cummings writes newsgroups comp windows misc path atldbs uupsi psinntp uunet gatech howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net convex seas smu edu void dalnet dlss james from james dlss james cummings subject more cool bmp files message apr dlss organization redrock development references apr gmuvax gmu edu distribution usa date tue apr gmt lines article apr gmuvax gmu edu rwang gmuvax gmu edu john wang writes everybody guess subject has said all getting boring looking those same old bmp files that came with windows wondering there any body has some beautiful bmp file can share maybe somebody can tell some ftp site for some bmp files like some scenery files some animals files etc used have some unfortunately delete them all anyway could give some help please response different kinda wallpaper here what use think the original gif whatever was called not real the artist name and logo the lower right corner you will need vga think and have this sized for color screens use this your windows directory and not tile hope you enjoy had question abo owen adair fsu adair dbsoftware com software backbone uupsi atldbs adair there alarming increase topics know nothing about
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	why mouse jumpy mouse ecktons ucs byu edu sean eckton writes have microsoft serial mouse and using mouse com was using think but switched see was any better vertical motion nice and smooth but horizontal motion bad sometimes can click something because mouse jumps around can moving the mouse the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for bit then jump the right then move smoothly for bit then jump again maybe this time the left about inch this crazy have never had much trouble with mouse before anyone have any solutions here another hint have really jumping mouse type and finally the mouse stops jump changing himem sys yes himem you use device himem sys can course computer don appear the list for these parameter and maybe your mouse can stop jump but your problem looks more like dirty mouse hope help anybody alejandro cifuentes acifuent isluga puc
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos loaded gun was why not using dos anymore mark woodruff cda ucf bitnet writes been running dos for about month was generally impressed with the improvements the multiple boot configurations were great the new commands were nice and doublespace worked fine twice slow for large data transfers twice fast for small with smartdrv until now this morning while was working research paper had reboot hung dos program that did disk from within windows when machine finished rebooting found windows directory and about two thirds other directories were irreversibly corrupted cannot afford problems like this returning dos mark also noticed bad sector errors from doublespace where none should exist infoworld april issue has two articles about problems with dos second look article calls loaded gun and that people should exercise extreme caution they decide use the point out that doublespace and memmaker are both problem areas that will cause number folks problems response was the effect that there had been problems reported that they could duplicate probably are not trying too hard cringely reports that lot folks are getting going get burned the support lines his example was call that cost for minutes tech support after minutes hold want see the spin doctors explain this
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	why not using dos anymore eliza tigern elisabeth bull writes mark woodruff cda ucf bitnet wrote this morning while was working research paper had reboot hung dos program that did disk from within windows when machine finished rebooting found windows directory and about two thirds other directories were irreversibly corrupted stuff deleted this sounds like what happened month ago was stacked with stacker run dos suddenly everything hung and most the got corrupted directories changed into unreadable files with funny names other words probably just the doubledisk part dos that troublesome now use stacker and far have had trouble this pretty much confirms original impression after reading through the documentation dos the double space sounds nice but not your primary disk probably wind making disk partition and doublespacing using archive probably would useful floppy disks well but particularly disliked the note that said something like double space irreversible cindy cindy tittle moore internet tittle ics uci edu bitnet cltittle uci bitnet uucp ucbvax ucivax tittle usnail box irvine
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows enhanced mode how get icon functionality recently set windows vlb system and didn notice until last night that don have the icon control panel don remember windows setup asking about enhanced mode whether wanted not now got program that just bought aldus freehand that telling that should running windows enhanced mode looks like running standard mode how can switch enhanced mode without the little icon thingie are there some issues involved with vesa systems which cause windows not want give you enhanced mode thanks for any help david victor
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help with changing startup logo article fidonet org doelle fidonet org doelle writes hello brad monday april brad smalling wrote crosspost all since don know your setup copy win cnf vgalogo lgo vgalogo rle win com grabbed this from supercharging windows judd robbins great book this also how you can put your own logo into the windows startup brad what the procedure used specially compress the bmp file would rle file love use some bmp files have created logo screen thanks chris origin chris doelle fidonet org thought reply this though ain brad any case lot picture file viewers that will convert say between gif etc bmp will convert rle know for fact that paintshop shareware from cica desktop think filename psvvv zip think where vvv the ver number that not true let know and post corection this however will write your rle file with bmp extension you have rename now another thing this from the windows faq your file has less than least that what the faq says but mine wont work for more than about maybe they mend don know your file has fit vga size whatever standard vga size you use non vga screen cga ega svga there also way but thing instead vgalogo lgo you use another file such cgalogo lgo egalogo lgo something not sure about this have vga but sure you could find the faq windows help ver which available cica but don konw the filename also your bmp has colours less these specs rule out some the good bmp found cartoon drawings work quite well they have the advantage looking good with little memory finally remember save your current win com before and put your new win com the windows directory also don start windows from directory where another win com present that used instead the one the windows dir and win won start share this fairly but don take slice pie mickey michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how make windows grp file reflect directory well ain always right but never been wrong
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows zip unzip article sol deakin russ deakin russ sharp writes are using pkzip and interested hear from people who have used one the many windows programs that call these which ones are available and does any one stand out amongst the rest well got winzip from cica don know which version but think the latest this not long ago and was initially imressed but here the low down winzip great progra long you only unzip lets you vew files unzip only selected files and even puts the files checkout directory and creates checkout grp and group you want check the program out even prompts for deletion these exit you didn like the program however big however over here have problems zipping don konw specifics this ammount consistency but sometimes when zip few files add file zip dos will violate something other and asked kind micro oft kind way quit all applications quit windows and restart computer don know said how consistent this jdont zip much and when now just dos and use from there just use the run cmd but know happened when added files existing zip file and when created new zip file using selected files only don know happened when zip entire dir still has rather nice interface and quite useful unzip ing functions the above fixed the first register the new ver for now good old run unzip zip will work new ver out that fixes these please let know peace mickey michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how make windows grp file reflect directory well ain always right but never been wrong
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	boot sometimes fails article dbasson mattek csir dbasson mattek csir dominique basson writes dos never used the area efff well some others you have any cards that use this are such lan card you might get this problem use the efff your emm exe line config sys you run memmaker then instruct retain inclusions and exclusions speaking that comp has emmexclude efff something that nature the system ini file some system file for windows was just wondering having that line windows startup file better will give some more memory dos apps but disable when you run windows actually think that that line also the system file peace mickey michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how make windows grp file reflect directory well ain always right but never been wrong
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mouse odometer hello you know about mouse odometer for windows have seen one for the mac quite fun records the distance miles that the travels during use thanks advance steve steven ruegsegger you are conservative when you are young smr cwru edu you have heart you are liberal when you are old you have brain
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	internationalization applications and muulti byte characters are researching what support there various platforms for applications use multi byte characters japanese kanji know that unix and windows can contain support for the standard depending level and platform what support for wide characters exists the mac windows and windows steve chesney slc catherine cim cdc com metaphase technology inc voice north lexington avenue fax arden hills
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help with changing startup logo article fidonet org doelle writes brad what the procedure used specially compress the bmp file would love use some bmp files have created logo screen thanks chris origin chris doelle fidonet org don know the specifics the compression algorithm but used the shareware program paintshop convert between the two you can download from ftp cica indiana edu but don know what the file called what directory you can start looking pub win try scanning the index files convert bmp file rle file you just load the bmp file and save select windows bitmap and compressed rle whatever fairly intuitive sorry don have all the details but currently ibm dumb terminal and can much researching good luck brad smalling tech atlanta prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	bitmap what does the bmp format mean iuj kiu lando demandis pri bitmap kaj finnlando respondis dirante pri libro software development kit eble demandinto havas elvolvilo por malmol varoj that was esperanto some from asked about bitmaps and some from responded saying about book int the software development kit possibly the asker does not have the development kit gxong cxjijaux
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	bitmap what does the bmp format mean pardonon ofte konfuzigxas pri mola kaj malmola mol vara was confused between soft and hard software gxong cxjijaux
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win lock mil dia stelth help please help you can whenever try run windows useing the million color mode with the drivers supplyed with diamond stelth will lock requireing full system reset break out the drivers that have for windows are for windows which the version windows useing setup kcach megs ram svga touch monitor non interlaced ami bios any and all help would apreciated the card seems work fine other modes usually run windows mode and probs all hopeing driver and not card problem paul gubbins cpt tiamat umd umich edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	leaking memory resources this may faq please direct the known answer but getting frustrated and looking for help running win with ndw with meg memory and meg perm swap file and getting exceedingly frustrated that applications are not giving back system resources when close them when load windows start with about resources available but many the application programs run regularly wpwin winqvt lotus organizer etc seem not return all their resources when exit them after day two work often find myself down under available resources even when have applications other than shell running aware this known problem what looking for are some suggestions what might mitigate what software the culprit win ndw applications are some modes win standard real enhanced better than others plugging this leak are their system ini switches can set help plug this leak people know patches third party software that help with this seems like increasing better managing system resources great market for third party memory company like qemm run progman instead ndw will the leak subside was hoping that ndw would have plugged this but seems different than how deals with memory and resources when writing code are there things can make less likely code will eat resources any other suggestions that don know enough ask for specifically thanks for your help this common problem and have seen only little discussion the net there are probably others who would like read answers please publish here rather than sending email danny daniel david mittleman danny arizona edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help finding best development kit new the windows world and while fairly competent sparc nextstep programmer have idea which development kit purchase have heard good things about borland with application frameworks and microsoft visual with sdk what would like peoples comments which package set tools they find useful productive and why there are plethora other kits such gui toolkits available and wondering which these are best terms reliability plug and type operation readability and interested comments these anything else you may find useful will summarize the net there enough interest thanks veenu vrr cbnewsj att com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	changing system font hello have windows and was wondering what necessary change the default system font something else have just obtained msc with sdk really like get feet wet with doing first windows pro gram change the system font william maton acadvm uottawa the mercedes benz convertible csi uottawa the unicycle
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ati ultra pro windows just got new with ati ultra pro and can get into windows says that need more memory available but have ogf extended mem conventionnal have disabled memory aperture because didn find any free memory but still gave message that the memory aperture will conflict with system memory think that why want get windows any help will greatly appriciated please reply mail because this site week late news thanks gel
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	where get ati card video drivers fonts rju hah access digex net farley access digex com charles farley writes does anyone know where can ftp somehow else acquire the latest video drivers fonts for ati svga adapter the only floppy have for windows does anyone know ati still business thanks farley access digex com charles farley average calgary board employee you can get them from the ati bbs number should your manuals not the tech support number will tell you the bbs number
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	pcx from folks have question how can generate pcx file using word for windows know can select postscript printer driver get file but how can generate pcx file there printer capture utility for windows that ever exists utility transfer format pcx format tiff format please reply mail will give summary thanks shiyu zhang syzhang ccit arizona edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	microsoft printing system something like that saw for this and basically advanced print manager lets you monitor your printing more closely and comes with bunch true type fonts anyone have this good bad worth
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	trouble with sound blaster pro drivers recently windows has starting giving the error sound blaster pro requires newer version windows has worked correctly for long time and don know what the problem could thanks jeff kaz kaczmarek kaz iastate edu the future long past forgotten when you the road madness geoff tate queensryche
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	local windows shared windows discussion would like see serious discussion the best way install windows from novell administrator point view just got off the phone with access support and was told that they microsoft has decided implement standard for software support the local setup described below the most advantageous installation this true and microsoft deems this the most prudent installation then will comply but like hear from administrators first the local windows installation windows fully installed each workstation hard drive assuming the resources are available from network administrator implementation she would install all windows disks network drive using setup then install windows per machine bases running setup off the network install the complete system the local drives this way all drivers are available the setup procedure the need change disks advantages reduce traffic running windows locally reduces network traffic due the local access main windows files network independence the network fails and they all one point another the local installation would allow users keep producing and reduce the cost down time faster windows theoretically windows will run faster from local hard drive than over network this may hard point prove the network has optical backbone and the network drives are significantly faster access than local ones user traveling from machine machine does not need worry about varying setups monochrome color types mouse etc since the windows installation assigned the workstation disadvantages cost installing windows locally requires significant amount disk space workstations now must purchased with hard disk that can increase the cost the workstation from percent administration local windows installations are very difficult administer new drivers for peripherals are constantly being made available each which would have individually installed each workstation security users now have access erase corrupt their own system files from simple ignorance this could result quite headache for administrators who may have constantly repair damaged installations backup all know the problems backing local hard disks the backup sets done via centralized tape system get very large very quickly backup individually floppy may not happen all this may eliminated assumed that local hard disks only contain replaceable applications and not user data the shared windows installation windows fully installed network disk via the setup procedure described above users administrators then install minimal set files individual user directories these directories may local hard disk perhaps network home directory the bulk the windows system files are maintained the network single directory some files and are accessed shared needed users throughout their windows session the user files consist small set files that the user has updated during his her windows session these include group files ini files and other regularly updated files advantages single location for all files makes updates drives easy updated driver becomes available only needs installed this single directory for all users able take advantage assuming that the users files are maintained network home directories the administrator can easily edit any ini file needed correct problems that may arise this includes win ini and system ini backup all pertinent files done easily even the users files are local hard disk the bulk the windows system backed with all driver updates disadvantages network traffic since all windows files are being shared network directory traffic the network can become problem effect the speed windows the network crashes all production comes stop since window reliant upon the network for its files loss data usually occurs well since users working windows the time the crash will usually not able save their work although minimal disk space still consideration the users files are maintained the network large number users can cause significant utilization disk space due their personal windows files alone users cannot easily move from machine machine unless the workstation hardware are similar this due the windows installation being tied particular username the case network user files the discussion would like know from other administrators with large windows userbase how they prefer setting windows personally have setup numerous installations using the shared setup all windows and application files are the network with little utilization local hard disks fact sold network the fact that the company would longer need purchase hard disks for their workstations and thus save that much more money would also like see recommendations for applications should apps such word and excel installed locally regardless how windows installed again keep all files the network for easy backup and administration but this putting all eggs one basket the network crashes work comes halt now sure microsoft and know your out there has their own ideas about this and their insights would great value but hope hear from people with actual working experience with users and network administration
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help with changing startup logo article apr seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes article fidonet org doelle fidonet org doelle writes hello brad monday april brad smalling wrote crosspost all copy win cnf vgalogo lgo vgalogo rle win com unecessary grabbed this from supercharging windows judd robbins great book this also how you can put your own logo into the windows startup might too much trouble brad bmp will convert rle know for fact that paintshop shareware from cica desktop think filename psvvv zip think where vvv the ver number that not true let know and this however will write your rle file with bmp extension you have rename your file has less than least that what the faq says but mine wont work for more than about maybe they mend don know agreed mixali your file has fit vga size whatever standard vga size you use non vga screen cga ega svga there also way but thing instead vgalogo lgo you use another file not entirely true also your bmp has colours less true finally remember save your current win com before and put your new win com the windows directory also don start windows from unecessary mickey path least resistance get wingif from cica ftp cica indiana edu pub win desktop will save native rle format unlike psp otherwise fine fine prog make file using anything that has less than michael said and less than colors import wingif gif pcx bmp and save you windows system subdir vgalogo rle not lgo exit win and run setup the windows subdir reselect your current config run win voila minor correction the rle file has that means gif hope helps and please please someone put this the group faq costas malamas georgia institute technology oit oit doesn pay enough share its opinions internet ccastco prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows zip unzip article sol deakin russ deakin russ sharp writes are using pkzip and interested hear from people who have used one the many windows programs that call these there full windows version that does not call the dos pkzip pkunzip commands russ sharp russ deakin edu fax winzip ftp cica indiana edu pub win util shell does call dos but very very good one will also arc arj and lzh fully supports pkzip try using might shell very unobtrusive but that also means you dont need update with every every other letter the alphabet version pkzip hope helps costas malamas georgia institute technology oit oit doesn pay enough share its opinions internet ccastco prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	tcp through windows don know much about computers please bear with here question context use package called slip home computer connect the university mainframe ibm running vms mvs and log account when installed slip computer had configure for modem kbs etronics internal and had supply the phone number dial reach the mainframe the way works now that type telnet uicvm uicvm either will work the dos prompt uicvm the node name the mainframe the program then dials the mainframe establishes protocol and gives the logon screen telnet and are the names batch files slip directory have been told that kermit protocol used for the session problem would like able all this under windows because hardly ever use dos directly slip will not run under windows talked the people our computer center and they suggested that use packet driver called winpkt com with slip they gave instructions how load before start windows and how modify the tcpstart and tcpstop batch files the slip directory ensure that would work did all that and could run slip from windows but there were other problems for one thing slip would not hang the phone when exited had run communi cations program hang the phone reboot the computer when that didn work for another there were too many errors often took tries connect the mainframe our computer center does not support slip under windows can keep going back them with more questions question there some other shareware package that will run under windows and what slip supposed need package that not too expensive which why looking for shareware have heard that there are regular commercial packages that all this but they cost hundreds dollars these are the main requirements must able run under windows must allow and ibm terminal emulation must allow ftp file transfers since that the only kind the mainframe allows modem modem etc believe the ftp transfers are made through kermit protocol but hazy about that subsidiary feature that would nice have true windows program rather than dos program modified run under windows the ability run the session window concurrently with other applications and cut and paste between the telnet session and other applications any information received appreciated pankaj saxena uicvm uic edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	codabar font need codabar font for win other thanks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows zip unzip article sol deakin russ deakin russ sharp writes are using pkzip and interested hear from people who have used one the many windows programs that call these which ones are available and does any one stand out amongst the rest there full windows version that does not call the dos pkzip pkunzip commands yes russ there quinzip windows version but don think handles all the functions available the dos version last looked quinzip could found the monash university australia mirror site cica assume still cica itself and other mirrors have look the util directory for file called qzip zip paul blackman pwb science canberra edu water research centre pwb aerg canberra edu faculty applied science university canberra australia spend little love and get high lenny kravitz
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows and imf boards interested know there know procedure document configure ibm musci feature imf card work the sound device with windows believe the imf uses the same synth chip the soun blaster but didn know what driver use how configure the midi mapper any help past success suggestions thanks don donald finch technical support engr american solution centers voice microsystems fax email don finch corp sun com mtv
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	observation floppy copy works under pgm mgr but not dos shell has anyone observed this copy large say file large pkzip file for instance floppy drive under windows via either program manager dos shell the file copied under the dos shell has errors whereas the file copied from within program manager does not the corruption detected executing pkunzip file zip after both copies the file copied via the dos shell always shows corruption now here the kicker have many windows open while doing this both dos and windows apps supposedly all windows apps share the same time slice whereas the dos apps get their own equal time slice unless overriden example have windows apps open multitasking dos sessions running and one execution execlusive dos shell iconized inactive under this scenario cpu time divided into two major slices one for all the windows apps and one slice for the running dos app when copying under windows pgm mgr assume the other windows and dos tasks are essentially inactive thus pgm mgr gets say the windows slice and the execution background dos shell slices thus gets the total available cpu time when copying dos shell activate the execute exclusive mode dos shell other dos background tasks allowed full screen under the windows task manager the cpu time available this shell would the windows slice assumming inactive windows applications and the dos slice the total available cpu time why get copy errors under dos has the greater amount cpu time program manager working pre emptive mode during the floppy copy must miscellaneous data running windows top dos qemm rapidbios sys mbyte smartdrive delayed writes two ramdrives logitech mouse driver full mbytes motherboard ram kbyte motherboard cache mhz running dos edit com tsr the dos shell wayne long internet wcl risc sps mot com william cannon drive west uucp texas edu oakhill risc wcl austin texas phone fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	please help wierd problem somebody help cure poor computer before insane have problem with when running windows that appears memory related actually not limited windows but that where causes most problems ths machine meg ram kcache trident tvga card pas soundcard windows runs really really slow most the time slower than old graphics draws fills are slow boots are slow applications are sluggish dialog boxes take seconds appear note some other non windows applications funny things that appear related several run slow mod player crashes the system etc running borland before running windows any the other programs completely fixes the problem windows will run fast ever seen run easily times faster for graphics than when don run beforehand don have memory manager installed config sys installing emm exe does not fix the problem makes worse after emm installed running will not fix the problem anymore this problem driving nuts you think you can help please reply through the mail thanks evan
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	and lbp drivers needed hello could anybody kind and tell the date and possible ftp location the most recent win printer drivers for canon and canon lbp would really appreciate you could help with this thanks advance kjell hut kjell niksula hut kjell vipunen hut
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows zip unzip article sol deakin russ deakin russ sharp writes are using pkzip and interested hear from people who have used one the many windows programs that call these which ones are available and does any one stand out amongst the rest there full windows version that does not call the dos pkzip pkunzip commands you mean prog that doesn jump the dos display and then back create temp dos window yes then might recommend winzip from ftp cica indiana edu afraid don have the file name version but you should able find fully compatible with ver and very functional later phil trodwell this space happy ram goddam volt cattle for rent prod into that tub with you right now but not cheap this radio hunter thompson
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	program manager kills group files article reiqj qtr access digex net bsmith access digex com barry smith writes any clue some times when enter win progman says that need rebuild group quite annoying had the same problem with maxtor turned off smartdrive bit disk access etc this same disk aborts norton speed disk times requesting ndd run when attempting defrag drive some peoples suggestion reformatted drive and reloaded dos win from scratch few people found that installing top beta top caused similar problem tried this drastic solution when the problem reoccurred didn have the brains not load and dblespaced the drive get arround the annoyance copying grp files gro when get the message run file manager and copy the offeniding group files from gro ove rthe grp then quit and restart windows the group often used important one this really sucks but pretty sure that the problem the drive especially with the nsd problem will going with out over memory after finals for weeks while the guy bought the disk and system from goes over and either fixes replaces the drive can wait have system that will run consistently with all hte goodies mike hayes knowledge good faber college motto www knowledge and thoroughness rensselear poly motto unemployed tech thank you groucho marx day the races driven banging head against engineering physics for years
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows und windows apr eurom rhein main hein eurom rhein main hein roehrig writes not sure whether here the right area but does anybody here know whether windows does will include windows server that can run window applications remotely does not insisting perfect safety for people who don have the balls live the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg com don speak for others and they don speak for
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	leaking memory resources apr bpavms bpa arizona edu dmittleman bpavms bpa arizona edu daniel mittleman writes this may faq please direct the known answer but getting frustrated and looking for help running win with ndw with meg memory and meg perm swap file and getting exceedingly frustrated that applications are not giving back system resources when close them aware this known problem what looking for are some suggestions what might mitigate what software the culprit win ndw applications are some modes win standard real enhanced better than others plugging this leak the applications that this unfortunately even the applets that ship with win seem have this problem seen solitaire for example are their system ini switches can set help plug this leak none that know application doesn give back the resources they are lost and gone forever pending restart windows people know patches third party software that help with this seems like increasing better managing system resources great market for third party memory company like qemm the applications don free the memory and lot them don there bugger all that any other piece software can about run progman instead ndw will the leak subside was hoping that ndw would have plugged this but seems different than how deals with memory and resources this problem with the applications usually when writing code are there things can make less likely code will eat resources there are books written this one general just sure free everything that you ask for before you exit unfortunately understand that will internally lose resources for you there way avoid this entirely any other suggestions that don know enough ask for specifically thanks for your help this common problem and have seen only little discussion the net there are probably others who would like read answers please publish here rather than sending email there little discussion because inevitable until manages come with that will garbage collection something the resource pool insisting perfect safety for people who don have the balls live the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg com don speak for others and they don speak for
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help how allocate more memory for disk copying file manager when use file manager disk copy find that windows can read the whole disk one time but only disk looks like problem memory however the has ram there should some way allocat more extended memory for disk copy please advise this matter thanks advance huayong
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows und windows article apr mksol dseg com mccall mksol dseg com fred mccall writes apr eurom rhein main hein eurom rhein main hein roehrig writes not sure whether here the right area but does anybody here know whether windows does will include windows server that can run window applications remotely does not could you add some information non does not say for instance your source information thanks kan mongwa mongwa acsu buffalo edu suny buffalo bitnet wxkp ubvms humpty dumpty electrical engineering wxkp ubvm
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	canon bubblejet and deskjet thomas fellrath edu edu wrote size another factor the much smaller but the built like tank bet the would get damaged first you bet your bippy built like tank and not just mechanically either this past weekend had nasty thunderstorm and the impossible happened got direct lightning strike house and the second floor outlet box into which faithful deskjet was connected there was bullet sized hole the aluminum siding with some solidified aluminum slag dripping from you could actually see the electrical box through the hole the outlet itself was fried and still amazed the whole damn house didn burn down lost electric garage door openers vcr telephones all which were the opposite side the house zyxel high speed modem vga monitor color monitor the and parallel ports terminal and lan card not good night but the deskjet ran soon found functioning serial and parallel port connect ted slightly singed rypma panacom division waterloo ontario
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	quietwriter driver trying get hold ibm quietwriter printer driver for windows such beast exists can someone suggest how get please mail reply directly don normally read this group many thanks david brown dbrown mach wlu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	replacement for program maw ying yuan wrote from yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu maw ying yuan subject replacement for program manager and file manager message juj news hawaii edu date thu apr gmt replacements for win program manager and file manager yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu been using plannet crafter plug for program manager its listed most bbs plugin its add which gives some needed features progman such the ability better manage your groups change your cursor and icons the fly constant status ram and resources quick menu drop down menu dos commands app launcher plus some other neat stuff used liked and even reg you can find anywhere let know and zip and mail you shareware version course aloha all hope abandon who enter messages here slmr idc bbs usr hst usr bis alameda california home kingmail kingqwk and qwkmerge
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	actix video card drivers for windows apr gmt kym burgemeister kburg aelmg adelaide edu wrote apr jarvis csri toronto edu wongda eecg toronto edu daniel wong writes looking for the latest drivers for the actix graphics accelerator card the driver currently using version and doesn support more than colors mode even you have memory the bbs support for actix unbelievable they are still using bps modem will take you hours download the drivers hurts when you are calling long distance there any ftp site that has collection video drivers for windows good but where are these drivers daniel wong uoft anybody actix listening upload the dang drivers ftp site pleeeeeeese somebody get them local call and contact ftp site for uploading this not possible can keep them disk and email the request uuencoded provided that somebody sends them cource live penio penev internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	some info the dos msw meltdown progressing nicely the preferred applications development platform according the fortune corporations survey sentry market research survey all percentages unix mainframe dos msw midrange this from corporate computing may page interesting see how the greatest vapour project the world has not been able make much difference here before you think interesting rag they have this incredibly incompetent article opinion piece someone named robert ziff which has preposturous statements like sun has sold around multiprocessing servers that case usc has around all sun servers earth off factor thought sending them factual disaster email message they have column titled how contact but being silly pcheads they seem have never heard the internet these may also interest world computer market share broad category dos windows netware unix ibm mainframe vax vms ibm minis macintosh other totally billion projections are idc source unix world jan unix hardware sales category billion installed base workstations million midrange million large scale unix million total ajay shah ajayshah rcf usc edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	please not post bitmaps from pwiseman salmon usd edu cliff organization university south dakota subject roman bmp response the requests for cool bitmaps posting one date due the resolution and size parts this uuencoded bitmap colors the picture marbled gazebo desert with blue sky background the size just right for centered wallpaper display because leaves border the bottom just big enough for icons fit without being top the picture reguarding image quality and resolution have not seen much better please not this don know how the rest you read news but here how subscribe outernet system which allows dial via modem and download mail and news articles automatically when someone posts huge attached binary file have choice but receive along with all the other new articles the groups subscribe also pay for the connect time which normally not problem because have modem and each day upload download session takes only minutes today session however lasted about minutes because roman bmp consequently cost about extra just receive file that didn want the first place you have cool bitmaps that you want make available there are other ways either upload the file ftp site like ftp cica indiana edu which has complete windows section and tell people how get use one the newsgroups like alt binaries pictures something like that which are file archives rather than discussion groups don use discussion groups like this one send out attached files especially when they size thanks klein eklein spiff win net
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mouse driver article apr princeton edu phoenix princeton edu carlosn carlos niederstrasser writes does anyone have the documentation for the mouse driver got when got windows but windows manual does not come with the documentation particular need know how turn off and how speed outside windows the greater sensitivity needed can play various games esp wing the sensitivity changed using the parameter the commands the following vertical sensitivity horizontal sensitivity both follow the parameter with number from slowest fastest the default you can type the command mouse right from the keyboard add autoexec bat hope this helps
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	why not using dos anymore article apr ugle unit eliza tigern elisabeth bull writes from eliza tigern elisabeth bull subject why not using dos anymore date wed apr gmt mark woodruff cda ucf bitnet wrote this morning while was working research paper had reboot hung dos program that did disk from within windows when machine finished rebooting found windows directory and about two thirds other directories were irreversibly corrupted stuff deleted this sounds like what happened month ago was stacked with stacker run dos suddenly everything hung and most the got corrupted directories changed into unreadable files with funny names other words probably just the doubledisk part dos that troublesome now use stacker and far have had trouble does this need have anything with disk compression have experienced the same thing couple times myself but without any disk compression stuff installed for example guess what happened when norton speeddisk once crashed during defragmenting bjorn bjorn myrland bjorn myrland sipaa sintef sintef safety and reliability trondheim norway sintef the foundation for scientific and industrial research the norwegian institute technology
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	printer driver wanted looking for printer driver for the apple imagewriter this printer actually the same citoh jim littlefield only two things are infinite the universe little hks com and human stupidity and not sure about the former albert einstein
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	question eisa video board performance from article ubg world std com cfw world std com christopher wroten have eisa machine and just not understand why most eisa video cards only match the performance their isa counterparts for instance the eisa orchid pro designer iis only about fast the isa diamond speedstar plus which isn what would call fast don understand why eisa video cards aren group the same level performance local bus cards given that eisa video cards have bit bus move data around instead isa bits good question answer the eisa bus does move bits rather than isa but still moves about the speed the isa bus think that either mhz the local bus designs also move bits like the eisa but they move the data the cpu speed mhz mhz cpu the local bus moving bit data mhz and the eisa moving bit data mhz the local bus should times faster than eisa mhz cpu eisa should about two maybe times fast isa since they are not why would anyone included pay higher cost for eisa video card when its performance better than and often worse that much cheaper isa video board such diamond speedstar from magazine think recent report know that ati makes pretty fast eisa video card but around which just about double what wallet will allow spend and for could get diamond viper and still have left over course have get local bus mother board too that very good question the eisa bus does have more advantages over the isa bus than just width for example more better interrupts and bus mastering but these other factors not impact video card very much they have more impact file servers with multiple hard drives full throttle network cards roms etc can anyone shed some light confusion frustration thanks christopher wroten cfw world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows und windows article ybv acsu buffalo edu mongwa acsu buffalo edu kan mongwa says does anybody here know whether windows does will include windows server could you add some information does not say for instance your source information source for does not comment the rom and manuals for the march beta there windows server there will there course even microsoft supplies one with other vendors will doubt port their according recent newsletter from hummingbird communications ltd they announced exceede uniforum the announcement reads like here now but there order price info would guess must rsn there dev kit too
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	why not using dos anymore regarding the horror stories about dos doubledisk and stacker killing hard drives was wondering the dos mirror command works the doubled drive info well the normal fat table and partition table records the vital doubledisk info then using daily should long way toward protecting yourself against the type catastrophic failure discussed doesn then shame microsoft
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	lockups enh mode floppy got older motherboard old uses keyboard controller and uses memory interleaving rather than caching has developed problem where trying copy files from floppy cause the machine lock reset button required but only when enhanced mode this occurs norton desktop file manager and when trying install software running win standard mode works fine has anyone run into this any ideas much thanks appreciated david yon world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	leaking memory resources dmittleman bpavms bpa arizona edu daniel mittleman writes this may faq please direct the known answer but getting frustrated and looking for help running win with ndw with meg memory and meg perm swap file and getting exceedingly frustrated that applications are not giving back system resources when close them noticed this also the way was explained that windows does not clear the upper memory blocks after program done anyone out there know this why
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos novell netware friend mine installed dos work and hooked novell network running netware the problem having that the doublespace program using drive the swap drive which confliting with the networks mapped drives there switch place the swap drive someother drive please mail thanks bunch mahbub cleveland freenet edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	where put swap file ide scsi have and recently added scsi drive system using adaptec non busmastering controller yesterday ran coretest find out drive performance and these are the values got seagate meg sec avg seek track track quantum meg scsi sec avg seek track track first off all are these good results don know what typical values are what wondering now the following swap file currently the ide could move the scsi which faster but then would not able use bit access which might actuall make slower which drive should put swap file get best results there swap file speed test program out there finally also ran the above tests with the aspi dos driver loaded and got difference whatsoever performance there any reason all why should load this driver thanks advance will post summary get enough responses eric
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	emm and windows almost exclusively run windows the only dos based application have procommplus config sys have emm loaded with the option noems expanded memory following thread one the comp newsgroups read that was necessary have emm loaded indeed the manual says that emm used get expanded memory out extended memory since have the noems option seems that the emm device useless case should use emm should remove from config sys thanks for your help eric
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	some info the dos msw meltdown progressing nicely ajayshah almaak usc edu ajay shah writes the preferred applications development platform according the fortune corporations survey sentry market research survey all percentages unix mainframe dos msw midrange this from corporate computing may page interesting see how the greatest vapour project the world has not been able make much difference here world computer market share broad category dos windows netware unix ibm mainframe vax vms ibm minis macintosh other projections are idc source unix world jan sombody data wrong since mac finder systerm whatever you want call doesn appear the first survey tend doubt their results more just because sombody wrote doesn mean its correct carl zmola cicero spc uchicago edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	where put swap file ide scsi article apr oracle oracle com ebosco oracle com writes have and recently added scsi drive system using adaptec non busmastering controller yesterday ran coretest find out drive performance and these are the values got seagate meg sec avg seek track track quantum meg scsi sec avg seek track track first off all are these good results don know what typical values are those are pretty typical believe what wondering now the following swap file currently the ide could move the scsi which faster but then would not able use bit access which might actuall make slower which drive should put swap file get best results there swap file speed test program out there keep the swap file the ide bit access worth fair amount more than
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	why are our desktop fonts changing one our users having unusual problem she does alt tab full screen dos program when she goes back windows her desktop fonts have changed she goes back full screen dos program and then goes back windows the font has changed back its default font not major problem everything works and the font legible but annoying does anyone have any idea why this happens the way she has dec machine jeffrey cohen voice office for research fax the university albany mail uacsc albany edu state university new york washington ave albany
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	replacement for program manager and file manager yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu maw ying yuan writes there could someone please suggest one the better shareware replacements for win program manager and file manager and which ftp site are they located thanks advance for mail response please post your response well think many would interested this one thank you wayne long internet wcl risc sps mot com william cannon drive west uucp texas edu oakhill risc wcl austin texas phone fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows should upgrade thinking upgrading the beta version windows mhz hard disc can someone please give there opion such setup for running and the operating system likely better than windows unix steve king ceres
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	video board there plan upgrading monitor and video card have isa local bus system would appreciate anyone can drop email your experience with high resolution video board monitor thanks ming lin mlin ichips intel com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	vesa driver for ibm xga can anyone tell where find standard vesa display driver that will support the the motherboard xga video ibm model need use and higher resolutions under both windows and dos minimum colors highest resolution with colors needed gary michael phone associate director fax office for information management mail gmichael vmd cso uiuc edu university illinois david kinley hall novanet gary michael duosoft cerl west gregory drive urbana
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	fast display adaptors for windows friend and have ati graphic ultra display adaptors and they have been reasonably good performers but both have had irritating compatibility problems with the ati drivers and are ready change something faster and more compatible with windows have heard rumblings that the new orchid card very fast anyone have experience with this card what currently available that fast compatible does non interlaced and cost under ken keirnan ken keirnan pacific bell kjkeirn srv pacbell com san ramon california
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	emm and windows almost exclusively run windows the only dos based application have procommplus config sys have emm loaded with the option noems expanded memory following thread one the comp newsgroups read that was necessary have emm loaded indeed the manual says that emm used get expanded memory out extended memory since have the noems option seems that the emm device useless case should use emm should remove from config sys thanks for your help eric emm noems enables the system use the upper memory between and that good place for device drivers dos kernal etc keep
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters microsoft the largest software company the planet yet cannot think even one computing concept that they innovated and brought market before anyone else xerox parc apple osborne next gnu and others have been pioneers and led the way the future computing what has microsoft done technological leader posted this question before but got nary reply make the challenge now anyone who can come with something especially microsoft employees get response this time guess pretty much assures that there none which what suspect anyway kurt bollacker duke university medical center kdb sunbar duke edu durham
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters microsoft the largest software company the planet yet cannot think even one computing concept that they innovated and brought market before anyone else xerox parc apple osborne next gnu and others have been pioneers and led the way the future computing what has microsoft done technological leader posted this question before but got nary reply make the challenge now anyone who can come with something especially microsoft employees get response this time guess pretty much assures that there none which what suspect anyway really when you come down who cares just hope keeps doing what they best getting usable productive software the masses thx dave
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos novell netware article rre usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu mahbub anam writes friend mine installed dos work and hooked novell network running netware the problem having that the doublespace program using drive the swap drive which confliting with the networks mapped drives there switch place the swap drive someother drive please mail thanks bunch mahbub cleveland freenet edu determine the last dblspace drive required and set that lastdrive your config sys you are using you might want couple drives higher give you some shared drive space reboot and novell will set its first drive one above the lastdrive config sys you might have remap some your novell drives they were originally mapped lower drives make sure that the bat file whatever you are using log onto novell set the correct drive one above the lastdrive setting the config sys file
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winlogo like substitute the exciting win opening logo for our own company logo boot time this matter replacing the logo file with our own logo and what format should the company logo thanks avdean
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	some info the dos msw meltdown progressing nicely ajayshah almaak usc edu ajay shah writes the preferred applications development platform according the fortune corporations survey sentry market research survey unix mainframe dos msw development what house apps maybe but certainly not apps sold open market statistics like that are laughable because they may simply mean that there are not enough shrink wrapped usable apps for unix and they have developed disproportionately often compared the installed unix base
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina once wrote microsoft the largest software company the planet yet cannot think even one computing concept that they innovated and brought market before anyone else xerox parc apple osborne next gnu and others have been pioneers and led the way the future computing what has microsoft done technological leader posted this question before but got nary reply make the challenge now anyone who can come with something especially microsoft employees get response this time guess pretty much assures that there none which what suspect anyway really when you come down who cares just hope keeps doing what they best getting usable productive software the masses personally blasphemous and say that microsoft keeps doing what does well hope see much harsher stricter copyright and patent laws for computer algorithms concepts interfaces and other intellectual properties protect real innovators hate one who actually does innovate and then have microsoft come like huge vulture and use their brute mass development staff marketing etc get fat off innovation don have all that much sympathy for apple complaint against microsoft since they just took the ideas from xerox research center when the federal government forced xerox disclose their patents over antitrust fears however for other companies and individuals who have great idea yet get borrowed larger corporations who can afford quickly bring market without any licensing from the original innovator feel much sympathy larry larry weeks those who fight monsters should make sure that dev ecn purdue edu the process does not become monster and when you look long into abyss the abyss also looks into you friedrich nietszche
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	western digital driver know that seen this question asked before but don remember seeing any answers here again does any one know ftp site where the driver might reside checked cica and sure not there refering the new version the driver that came out have seen serve but hesitate meg bps unless really have alternativly possible get paradise mail the new drivers don they that finally even worth the hassle getting these things there not much improvement over version thanks for the info peter peter wecker yrj internet pswecker med unc edu uucp pswecker uncmed uucp dept physiology univ north carolina chapel hill
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how change icon for program windows suppose you want change the particular icon for program windows such the dos one would someone let know how you can this thanks million chad toelle toelle evansville edu philip vernon uunet evansville edu toelle
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	required file format word for window file doc trying develop utility view word for window file but that need know the format the doc word for window file format files can anybody tell what the format doc file direct where can get proprietory format your help greatly appriciated thanks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wanted font creator package free looking for way get our company logo onto documents and figure the easiest way put into font are there any public domain programs that can this there any shareware that will this any help appreciated paul paul wilson pwilson gandalf
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article news duke edu kdb sunbar duke edu duke edu kurt bollacker writes from kdb sunbar duke edu duke edu kurt bollacker subject challenge microsoft supporters date apr gmt microsoft the largest software company the planet yet cannot think even one computing concept that they innovated and brought market before anyone else xerox parc apple osborne next gnu and others have been pioneers and led the way the future computing what has microsoft done technological leader posted this question before but got nary reply make the challenge now anyone who can come with something especially microsoft employees get response this time guess pretty much assures that there none which what suspect anyway kurt bollacker duke university medical center kdb sunbar duke edu durham they invented the how make money others ideas they made money they weren the air the wrong time admit billg damn smart guy how many out there can make money almost useless products useless even you look the time dos were written stinked already then could choose one marketing guy the world think would choose him good that almost everyone hates him but they still use his stuff thomasez not perfect but perfect for you shavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalessha vethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavet hewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavebillgatesshavethewhalesshavethew halesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhal esshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhaless
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	vesa driver for ibm xga gmichael vmd cso uiuc edu gmichael vmd cso uiuc edu gary michael writes can anyone tell where find standard vesa display driver that will support the the motherboard xga video ibm model need use and higher resolutions under both windows and dos minimum colors highest resolution with colors needed the ibm xga svga vesa driver the reference diskette available from the ibm bbs also compu erve you can bang your sales rep get you later version dick kaul opinions only not official ibm positions etc ibm xga development they make wear suit were speak for ibm boca raton the use unnecessary violence the apprehension kaul vnet ibm com the blues brothers has been approved
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows line review uploaded have uploaded the windows line review shareware edition ftp cica indiana edu pub win uploads wolrs zip line magazine which contains reviews some shareware products grabbed from the windows line bbs greg reinacker ncr microelectronic products division voiceplus danfield court greg reinacker ftcollinsco ncr com fort collins
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how redirect print manager file hpcc corp com reed hpcc corp com perry reed writes hpcc comp windows misc nctu edu swh apr hello who can tell where can find the shareware which can capture windows output printer mananger you are planning using this regular basis conncting the printer file can become bothersome because windows then asks you for the filename that you want create found that putting line system ini the ports section with just path and filename works the only problem that you send more than one job the second one deletes the first chris cmj acsu buffalo edu christopher johnson pgp public key encryption for the masses disclaimer didn say that pgp encrypted mail welcome pgp public key pgp public keys toxicwaste mit edu orwell may very well have been correct just had the year wrong
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	telnet terminal for windows looking for good terminal program that will connect tcp using windows some basic window that connect unix host would great any suggestions thanks peter kocks kocks chemistry stanford edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters has innovated anything really when you come down who cares just hope keeps doing what they best getting usable productive software the masses lets see what products don have major bugs them but the fifth release the bugs are generally cleared even their customers must buy new releases from them that are little more than bug fixes anyone who buys computer system and then runs windows desperate need sympathy wait innovated the plastic housing the mouse didn they logitech inside personally blasphemous and say that microsoft keeps doing what does well hope see much harsher stricter copyright and patent laws for computer algorithms concepts interfaces and other intellectual properties protect real innovators hate one who actually does innovate and then have microsoft come like huge vulture and use their brute mass development staff marketing etc get fat off innovation don have all that much sympathy for apple complaint against microsoft since they just took the ideas from xerox research center when the federal government forced xerox disclose their patents over antitrust fears however for other companies and individuals who have great idea yet get borrowed larger corporations who can afford quickly bring market without any licensing from the original innovator feel much sympathy larry larry weeks those who fight monsters should make sure that dev ecn purdue edu the process does not become monster and when you look long into abyss the abyss also looks into you friedrich nietszche you can even really call secondary creativity when company gathers together bunch knock off packages and peddles them neophytes does anything appears someone has first appears that finding out that throwing money technological problems means guaranteed solution kenton cmu edu fixes broken windows
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows should upgrade article rrhe inn ceres kingston ceres kingston steve warner writes thinking upgrading the beta version windows mhz hard disc can someone please give there opion such setup for running and the operating system likely better than windows unix steve king ceres been using windows since the october release and have say that the march release really big improvement windows becomming usable there are few things consider before you make the leap though first for least that you cannot get full speed dos box what mean cannot for instance run falcon any other resourse intensive program dos box absolutley crawls and machine with and ram anyone knows how get fast dos box full screen for that matter please let know the second thing there are still not many drivers around for stuff for instance pas has been demoted running sound blaster which natively supported nice because mediavision hasn produced drivers yet your disk should large enough keep dos partition and give the rest over windows the only thing whenever you wanted run windows programs you have reboot and log into windows instead just typing win windows does seem much more stable than normal windows though good choice you have the resources you should really have least ram though one last thing modems work well enough but have yet get fax card work and never heard anyone else who did either only better than unix because runs killer software out the box whereas with unix there isn the same availablity guess comes down windows not yet for the faint heart still beta but very good beta scott reimert reimert mamacass etdesg trw com standard disclaimer redondo beach blah blah blah always store beer cool dark place
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows und windows ybv acsu buffalo edu mongwa acsu buffalo edu kan mongwa writes article apr mksol dseg com mccall mksol dseg com fred mccall writes apr eurom rhein main hein eurom rhein main hein roehrig writes not sure whether here the right area but does anybody here know whether windows does will include windows server that can run window applications remotely does not could you add some information non does not say for instance your source information have copy isn there microsoft says will not the release version either just asked did not told him thanks you welcome insisting perfect safety for people who don have the balls live the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg com don speak for others and they don speak for
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	telnet terminal for windows article apr leland stanford edu kocks chemistry stanford edu peter kocks writes looking for good terminal program that will connect tcp using windows some basic window that connect unix host would great any suggestions take look winqvt net the latest version qvt net comes versions that are direct packet driver well nfs version priced quite low registration student registration and nice package comes complete with terminal emulation ftp pop client lpr and nntp client you can ftp from biochemistry bioc cwru edu pub qvtnet qvtnet zip was also uploaded ftp cica indiana edu recently ashok ashok aiyar mail ashok biochemistry cwru edu department biochemistry tel cwru school medicine cleveland ohio fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows zip unzip pwb aerg canberra edu paul blackman writes article sol deakin russ deakin russ sharp writes are using pkzip and interested hear from people who have used one the many windows programs that call these which ones are available and does any one stand out amongst the rest there full windows version that does not call the dos pkzip pkunzip commands yes russ there quinzip windows version but don think handles all the functions available the dos version the problem that quinzip very very slow think that winzip still the best choice use pkzip windows denis simard montreal simardde ere umontreal
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help with changing startup logo previous article louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis wrote article fidonet org doelle fidonet org doelle writes hello brad monday april brad smalling wrote crosspost all since don know your setup copy win cnf vgalogo lgo vgalogo rle win com grabbed this from supercharging windows judd robbins great book this also how you can put your own logo into the windows startup now another thing this from the windows faq your file has less than least that what the faq says but mine wont work for more than about maybe they mend don know com files are limited total size thus win cfn plus vgalogo log plus your rle file must less than thus your rle file should around rob any resemblance between the above views and rob those faculty advisor terminal mohns the view out window are purely coinci dental richard traina may may not rmohns vax support said views but probably doesn clarku edu want clarkies think about them
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	more cool bmp files adair atldbs dbsoftware com owen adair writes article apr dlss james dlss james cummings writes newsgroups comp windows misc path atldbs uupsi psinntp uunet gatech howland reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net convex seas smu edu void dalnet dlss james from james dlss james cummings subject more cool bmp files message apr dlss organization redrock development references apr gmuvax gmu edu distribution usa date tue apr gmt lines article apr gmuvax gmu edu rwang gmuvax gmu edu john wang writes everybody guess subject has said all getting boring looking those same old bmp files that came with windows wondering there any body has some beautiful bmp file can share maybe somebody can tell some ftp site for some bmp files like some scenery files some animals files etc used have some unfortunately delete them all anyway could give some help please response different kinda wallpaper here what use think the original gif whatever was called not real the artist name and logo the lower right corner you will need vga think and have this sized for color screens use this your windows directory and not tile hope you enjoy try this one for size rather not post her name but you email tell you who she enjoy dave bushong wang laboratories inc amateur radio callsign project leader recognition products ary noca internet dbushong wang com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	some info the dos msw meltdown progressing nicely apr bert eecs uic edu zmola bert eecs uic edu carl zmola writes sombody data wrong since mac finder systerm whatever you want call doesn appear the first survey tend doubt their results more just because sombody wrote doesn mean its correct note that the two tables don talk about the same population one fortune companies favoring the platform their primary application platform the other sales everyone not just fortune fortune companies don lot development with the mac their top platform would expect that that would explain the discrepancy insisting perfect safety for people who don have the balls live the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg com don speak for others and they don speak for
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	question eisa video board performance apr hubcap clemson edu charlea eng clemson edu charles allen writes from article ubg world std com cfw world std com christopher wroten have eisa machine and just not understand why most eisa video cards only match the performance their isa counterparts for instance the eisa orchid pro designer iis only about fast the isa diamond speedstar plus which isn what would call fast don understand why eisa video cards aren group the same level performance local bus cards given that eisa video cards have bit bus move data around instead isa bits good question answer the eisa bus does move bits rather than isa but still moves about the speed the isa bus think that either mhz the local bus designs also move bits like the eisa but they move the data the cpu speed mhz mhz cpu the local bus moving bit data mhz and the eisa moving bit data mhz the local bus should times faster than eisa mhz cpu eisa should about two maybe times fast isa would expect the eisa board more than twice fast the isa board not only are you moving data path twice wide least but there difference the number clocks required for bus transactions between the two busses most isa boards require multiple clocks per bus transaction typically this around eisa boards are suppose able burst rate would expect performance that isa card guess for the question unanswered still would expect him able see speed difference and apparently does not insisting perfect safety for people who don have the balls live the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg com don speak for others and they don speak for
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	emm and windows article ardie cso uiuc edu ardie cso uiuc edu ardie mack writes almost exclusively run windows the only dos based application have procommplus config sys have emm loaded with the option noems expanded memory following thread one the comp newsgroups read that was necessary have emm loaded indeed the manual says that emm used get expanded memory out extended memory since have the noems option seems that the emm device useless case should use emm should remove from config sys thanks for your help eric emm noems enables the system use the upper memory between and that good place for device drivers dos kernal etc keep well thought that highmem sys would that too just took out emm config sys and still loading other drivers high mouse vga shadow bios dos key etc haven checked mem but believe have managed load them high between and also ever since took out emm windows loads slightly faster get about extra meg freemem windows running enhanced with meg ram meg swap and got rid ctrl alt del reboot problem before the computer would not reboot using ctrl alt del after exiting windows would really like keep emm out config sys anybody else have info this eric
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	why are our desktop fonts changing article uacsc albany edu uacsc albany edu writes one our users having unusual problem she does alt tab full screen dos program when she goes back windows her desktop fonts have changed she goes back full screen dos program and then goes back windows the font has changed back its default font not major problem everything works and the font legible but annoying does anyone have any idea why this happens the way she has dec machine any consolation had similar problem recall exited from dos session while full screen mode the menu titles had changed scrambled version the icon title font something like that only started happening after used icontitlefacename win ini change the desktop font arial stopped exiting from dos sessions while full screen mode mac used something similar aren computers weird mark hadfield hadfield wao greta cri niwa oceanographic taihoro nukurangi evans bay greta point telephone box kilbirnie fax wellington new zealand
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters kenton shaver andrew cmu edu writes lets see what products don have major bugs them but the fifth release the bugs are generally cleared even their generally the second third major release usually takes care advice based plenty personal experience never buy the first version anything from microsoft this includes major version number upgrades from previous releases such microsoft always wait least for the upgrade slipstream upgrade you going buy san francisco like granola take away the fruits and the nuts and all you have left are the flakes
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article apr samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes microsoft the largest software company the planet yet cannot think even one computing concept that they innovated and brought market before anyone else xerox parc apple osborne next gnu and others have been pioneers and led the way the future computing what has microsoft done technological leader posted this question before but got nary reply make the challenge now anyone who can come with something especially microsoft employees get response this time guess pretty much assures that there none which what suspect anyway really when you come down who cares just hope keeps doing what they best getting usable productive software the masses thx dave you think that windows useable you must not use much windows version crash protection wearing helmet while computing the arir air bag expensive add brett brett sherron ferrell email bferrell uceng edu cincy catch the cats college engineering you can friends don let friends windows wittism week think that wrong believe ism you should believe yourself ferrish bueller
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	please not post bitmaps though downloaded some the posted bitmaps myself the original poster quite right alternative try posting them comp binaries windows and just letting know good idea post the article number here peace micke michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how make windows grp file reflect directory well ain always right but never been wrong
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	leaking memory resources article csn org richardf teal csn org iriemon writes dmittleman bpavms bpa arizona edu daniel mittleman writes running win with ndw with meg memory and meg perm swap file and getting exceedingly frustrated that applications are not giving back system resources when close them noticed this also the way was explained that windows does not clear the upper memory blocks after program done anyone out there know this why there was post about something similar while back seems windows does not take upon itself free any sys resources applllication using when that application done that job left entirely the application that the application has clean after itself when quits anyone out there know there utility for windows which will clean sys resources when application quits mother zip peace mickey michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how make windows grp file reflect directory well ain always right but never been wrong
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help with changing startup logo there has been long running discussion over changing the startup logo for windows for few weeks here while all the copy methods are great haven seen any mention program that will for you well found one cica called winlogo can remember where unfortuantely and seems work real well even comes with couple example rle files what really like though way create rle files myself specifically the rle format mentioned the winlogo readme file can anyone point the direction such beast with real directory path all the ones seen mentioned didn pan out mail oddjob plymouth edu vms andys psc plymouth edu disclaimer any end user software that provides avenue for user the week modification programmability not user friendly
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	print file how print the file later here the situation home have word for windows but printer work have windows postscript printer but not word configure machine home use postscript printer and use the print file option which produces nice postscript file which then bring work question how print this postscript file through the print manager work for example select print from the file manager treats the postscript text file and gives several pages postscript gibberish know that can open dos window and copy file com which does work but seems not multitask very well other applications run rather slowly and often pause for seconds there ought way passing the postscript file the print manager but there can find any mention the documentation anyone know how this michael clase memorial university newfoundland mclase riemann math mun
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article bgzv uceng edu bferrell ant occ edu brett ferrell writes article apr samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes microsoft the largest software company the planet yet cannot think even one computing concept that they innovated and brought market before anyone else xerox parc apple osborne next gnu and others have been pioneers and led the way the future computing what has microsoft done technological leader posted this question before but got nary reply make the challenge now anyone who can come with something especially microsoft employees get response this time guess pretty much assures that there none which what suspect anyway really when you come down who cares just hope keeps doing what they best getting usable productive software the masses thx dave you think that windows useable you must not use much windows version crash protection wearing helmet while computing the arir air bag expensive add brett ladies gentlemen please keep this discussion comp windows advocacy where belongs thank you john grant jagrant emr emr airborne geophysics geological survey canada ottawa john grant jagrant emr emr airborne geophysics geological survey canada ottawa
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	emm and windows from article ardie cso uiuc edu ardie cso uiuc edu ardie mack almost exclusively run windows the only dos based application have procommplus config sys have emm loaded with the option noems expanded memory following thread one the comp newsgroups read that was necessary have emm loaded indeed emm noems enables the system use the upper memory between and that good place for device drivers dos kernal etc keep emm not reqired load the dos kernal high else you couldn mail message recommended that remove since only runs procomplus frequently dos and suspect emm will slow down windows charles cballen clemson edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	leaking memory resources here interesting table showing how much resources application uses and how much gives back shut down this take from windows user may issue application min resource use resource not returned gdi user gdi user winsleuth gold word for windows lotus arts and leters powerpoint corel draw micro designer crosstalk excel hijacck image color pro picture publisher powerleads executive adobe type manager skylight the numbers are percentage and are decreasing order what does this table tells you you frequently start and exit program that doesn give back all resources then you continually lose these resouces therefore only open these programs once and leave them open btw maybe people can add this list know what application watch out for later doug
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how respond lbuttondblclk using objectwindows trying resond the left button double click message lbuttondblclk combo box codes look like class mycombobox public tcombobox public mycombobox ptwindowsobject aparent int resourceid word atextlen tcombobox aparent resourceid atextlen virtual void wmlbuttondblclk rtmessage msg first lbuttondblclk void mycombobox wmlbuttondblclk rtmessage msg responding the message selecting the item the list box anything wrong with program any help would appreciated jun talk the lord with through windows
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how change icon for program windows article apr uenics evansville edu toelle uenics evansville edu chad toelle writes suppose you want change the particular icon for program windows such the dos one would someone let know how you can this depends wether you are going replace this with icon that comes standard with windows with icon from some other icon manager well one those that comes with windows just highlight the item clicking once click file and then properties you should see box which says change icon click you are going presented with some icons sometimes just one you don like any those presented click the browse box and look for the file moricons dll select browse through the icons presented and just double click your desired icon you want replace with icon from some other icon manager say iconpower for instance open the icon manager the bottom your screen where will not block the application icon you wish replace when you have found your desired icon click once and while holding the mouse button down pull this icon over the one you wish change and thats regards kan mongwa mongwa acsu buffalo edu state univeristy bitnet wxkp ubvms humpty dumpty new york buffalo wxkp ubvm
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	leaking memory resources dmittleman bpavms bpa arizona edu daniel mittleman writes this may faq please direct the known answer but getting frustrated and looking for help running win with ndw with meg memory and meg perm swap file and getting exceedingly frustrated that applications are not giving back system resources when close them many lines deleted danny daniel david mittleman danny arizona edu danny while working shareware toolbar found myself eating resources and very wise person pointed the sdk and specifically the debug kernel once you have all the sdk stuff installed this also comes with you run which does normal debug swap the debug kernel runs slower but you then execute the command dbwin and let report you what going you are going find out lot more about your apps than you cared and possibly about other peoples apps that opa sorry this doesn make sense repost mail dave dave campbell wynapse wynapse wynapse indirect com the shareware custom control source
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	looking for organizer looking for organizer program for windows currently have lotus organizer not bad but looking for better should have calender scheduler should have list nice additions address phone book diary please any suggestions shareware public copyrighted please email sthong eniac seas upenn edu steven hong email address sthong eniac seas upenn edu university pennsylvania engineering class
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	leaking memory resources article apr seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes article csn org richardf teal csn org iriemon writes dmittleman bpavms bpa arizona edu daniel mittleman writes running win with ndw with meg memory and meg perm swap file and getting exceedingly frustrated that applications are not giving back system resources when close them noticed this also the way was explained that windows does not clear the upper memory blocks after program done anyone out there know this why there was post about something similar while back seems windows does not take upon itself free any sys resources applllication using when that application done that job left entirely the application that the application has clean after itself when quits anyone out there know there utility for windows which will clean sys resources when application quits mother zip peace mickey could also that your shell hogging the resources for example open the apps with data files that cause resulting low system resources with ndw shell then the same with program manager and see the shell the apps ted
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wfworkgroups server goes deaf has anyone else observed this behaviour and what have you done cure one workstation wfw network goes deaf any form communication from other workstations until goes out the network itself from then other workstatons can interact with until some time later when goes deaf again the workstation set share its discs etc the machine ram with diamond stealth video behaves this way with variety bit network adapters including smc elite also behaves the same way use the windows vga driver rather than the diamond drivers
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows and ati ultra mach chip sizing question have just upgraded from trident tvga ati graphics ultra the old mach chip quite pleased with the performance far but have one problem when using windows have noticed that the tile bars and scroll bars are significantly larger than they were when was using the trident card there setting ini files that can change make these smaller could not find the faq for this list mike mdtancsa watarts uwaterloo
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	laser jet and windows has anybody had chance find out how the new laser jet behaves with windows daniel royer
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	roman bmp please don post uuencoded bitmaps here you want put them the alt binaries areas these files are very large and may crash some users newsfeeds also waste band width also all know how convert gif bmp with many programs really not worth posting all these bmp files thanks kirk membry our age the age industry rutgers viamar kmembry alexander rodchenko
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help needed dos apps and windows since loading windows two dos applications have been acting strangely appears that font changes and page orientation changes far are not being recognized wordperfect dos and quattropro dos another dos application does accept font and page orientation changes don think the problem with the printer reloaded quattropro and these changes are still not accepted whether launching from windows the dos prompt does anyone have any suggestions where look how correct this problem ordered quattropro for windows but need landscape application printed immediately please mail thanks advance sue bittner internet nigs cmuvm csv cmich edu central michigan university bitnet nigs cmuvm pleasant
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters stuff deleted about microsoft bferrell ant occ edu brett ferrell writes you think that windows useable you must not use much windows version crash protection wearing helmet while computing the arir air bag expensive add brett you must read too many advertisements crash protection such marketing gimick isn funny out months using windows new machine only had crash once and don have run the mill configuration microsoft not leader innovation but they certainly know how build better mousetrap now what wrong with that larry ludes ludwig always taken twice get clemson university compsci undergrad right you never heard the ludes hubcap clemson edu apple ludes clemson clemson edu steve jobs
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	roman bmp response the requests for cool bitmaps posting one hello cliff many people the internet like have pay for every byte data passed through subscribed news groups bitmaps are large bitmaps cost lot money there are special news groups for bitmaps because this don subscribe them put you bitmaps the right place read one the faq guides the newuser groups and will tell you all about bitmaps and the thousands establishments like mine that you have just cost money some them have very limited budgets away this flame you distribution usa didn work kenb ken blackler jet fusion jet joint undertaking abingdon energy for the oxfordshire england far future disclaimer please note that the above personal view and should not construed official comment from the jet project
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	need help with wordperfect for windows trying install wordperfect for windows computer running meg ram and meg virtual mem setting for windows keep getting errors when try run tells that don have enough memory disk space since have megs free the assuming that don have enough memory can anyone tell what takes run this beast thanks stealth dave destill mtu edu you are caught using this address internet will deny any responsibility its use this mail will self destruct seconds
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	some info the dos msw meltdown progressing nicely article messinac iho netcom com messina netcom com tony porczyk writes ajayshah almaak usc edu ajay shah writes the preferred applications development platform according the fortune corporations survey sentry market research survey unix mainframe dos msw development what house apps maybe but certainly not apps sold open market statistics like that are laughable because they may simply mean that there are not enough shrink wrapped usable apps for unix and they have developed disproportionately often compared the installed unix base actually you might surprised find that not everyone who develops mainstream dos and windows apps develops them under dos windows week recently printed rumor that microsoft excel development group does its development under another trade rag did article recently about group doing windows development sun sparcstations with softpc test out their work sco unix and has been reasonably popular development platform for dos windows and even apps dos and windows are simply not robust stable enough for development work imho and apparently others agree marc fraioli mfraioli grebyn com minimalist
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article may hubcap clemson edu ludes hubcap clemson edu larry ludes ludwig writes stuff deleted about microsoft bferrell ant occ edu brett ferrell writes you think that windows useable you must not use much windows version crash protection wearing helmet while computing the arir air bag expensive add brett you must read too many advertisements crash protection such marketing gimick isn funny out months using windows new machine only had crash once and don have run the mill configuration microsoft not leader innovation but they certainly know how build better mousetrap now what wrong with that larry ludes ludwig always taken twice get clemson university compsci undergrad right you never heard the ludes hubcap clemson edu apple ludes clemson clemson edu steve jobs does sound funny will admit but for true windows crashed all the time and from what have read mag this not the exception gives each windows app vdm and they can touch each other generally anything they aren supposed have windows works for you then great maybe this why some people don see why the choice windows doesn crash you and you don mind waiting each task and not being able adress your memory better than dos some the key reasons for using are gone probably would still use but would more even fight brett brett sherron ferrell email bferrell uceng edu cincy catch the cats college engineering you can friends don let friends windows wittism week think that wrong believe ism you should believe yourself ferrish bueller
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters ludes hubcap clemson edu larry ludes ludwig writes stuff deleted about microsoft bferrell ant occ edu brett ferrell writes you think that windows useable you must not use much windows version crash protection wearing helmet while computing the arir air bag expensive add brett you must read too many advertisements crash protection such marketing gimick isn funny out months using windows new machine only had crash once and don have run the mill configuration wow what did you use for single tasked word processing have files loaded right now and virtual machine ram friend down the street gripes that can even format floppy the background many unix people love because they are used multi tasking systems microsoft not leader innovation but they certainly know how build better mousetrap now what wrong with that too bad they hold gun the mouse piper while they throw mice their new trap trying get work kenton cmu edu fixes broken windows
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	what does the bmp format mean article robertsa unix tcd robertsa unix tcd andrew roberts writes what exactly does the windows bitmap format look like mean how the data stored width height colours bitmap data couldn find anything ths user manual there any other reference material which would give this information from thomas sunshine kodak com thomas kinsman newsgroups comp windows programmer misc alt binaries pictures utilities subject dib bmp creation guide requested keywords dib bmp bitmaps file formats message dec kodak kodak com date dec gmt sender news kodak kodak com organization precambiran electronics rochester lines xref cradle titech comp windows programmer misc guide creation dib images thomas kinsman precambrian electronics falstaff rochester thomask kodak com copyright march abstract the format images created for use windows applications documented the windows programmer reference guide this guide intended clearify some wording the specifications and put forth recommendation among the various alternatives please send updates corrections suggestions and revisions please thank for writing this own time keeping name with the document thank you for your respect this document copyright thomas kinsman desired postscript version this document available this information free you get more than what you pay for don sue wrong overview the dib image file format intended device independent bitmap file format what microsoft means device independent unclear four pixel resolutions are supported bit bit bit and bit pixels these images were intended for use dos ibm little endian systems you are creating them another architecture you will have byte swap all short and long integer values convention dib images end the extension bmp this because march they are super set earlier bitmap image files consequently you will sometimes hear dib files referred bmp files since dib images files are super set there are three flavors dib images dos dib images these are the recommended convention and the form which will describe how create they are intended for applications running under windows dos environment dib images understanding that these are the flavor dib images that were used the presentation manager old style bitmap images march differences between flavors the dos dib images consist bitmapfileheader file header which identifies the file dib file this header also gives the total size the image file and the offset the image data bitmapinfoheader image header which specifies the image attributes optional palette colors used the image exists this may contain entries each entry windows rgbquad structure the image data itself the dib images consist the same bitmapfileheader file header which identifies the file dib file this header also gives the total size the image file and the offset the image data bitmapcoreheader image header which specifies the image attributes optional palette colors used the image again this exists may contain entries each entry windows rgbtriple structure the image data itself the old style image bitmap consists either bitmapinfoheader bitmapcoreheader which header type determined the first long integer dword value optional color palette this palette may composed either windows rgbquad structures the header was bitmapinfoheader windows rgbtriple structures the header was bitmapcoreheader the image data itself creating dib image files creating dos dib image file consists several straight forward steps the headers need created and then written the file these header structures are defined the windows windows include file palette information needs stored for images that are not bit images the five general steps are filling the bitmapfileheader and the bitmapinfoheader structures the basic image information the image bit bit bit image creating the color palette rgbquads calculating the total file size and putting this information march the bfsize field the bitmapfileheader calculating the offset the image data from the start the file and putting this the bfoffbits field the bitmapfileheader writing the file the bitmapfileheader the bitmapinfoheader the color palette and the image data that order the following sections describe structures terms microsoft type defined keywords the following table describes these keywords for those not familiar with microsoft type defined keywords microsoft typedef meaning byte unsigned character word two byte unsigned integer dword four byte unsigned integer march the bitmapfileheader this structure defined windows typedef struct tagbitmapfileheader word bftype dword bfsize word bfreserved word bfreserved dword bfoffbits bitmapfileheader the bftype field the two ascii characters and this serves identify the file dib image file intel byte ordered machine ibm compatible this constant can formed the quantity intel system the bfsize field the total size the file for our purposes this field equal the size the bitmapfileheader plus the size the bitmapinfoheader plus the number entries the color palette times the size rgbquad plus the number bytes image data the image data being written out uncompressed form this value can calculated ahead time otherwise this field needs filled later both the bfreserved and the bfreserved fields are always set zero the bfoffbits field set the offset the start the image data from the start the file for our purposes this field should set the size the bitmapfileheader plus the size the bitmapinfoheader plus the number entries the color palette times the size rgbquad this works out because the image data written write after the color palette one exists march the bitmapinfoheader this structure defined windows typedef struct tagbitmapinfoheader dword bisize dword biwidth dword biheight word biplanes word bibitcount dword bicompression dword bisizeimage dword bixpelspermeter dword biypelspermeter dword biclrused dword biclrimportant bitmapinfoheader the bisize field set the size the bitmapinfoheader structure itself when reading the image file this value what used determine that the image contains bitmapinfoheader and not bitmapcoreheader the biwidth field the width the image image pixels the biheight field the height the image image lines the biplanes field should always set this data written out there was one color plane the bibitcount field the bit depth the image this must either depending the bit depth the image data the bicompression field tells how the image data compressed compressed dib images support two forms run length encoding however have never seen any images which use and don know yet how works set this field zero long zero indicate that the data not compressed all subsequent fields the bitmapinfoheader structure may set zero requirement the interpretting software that able compute these fields necessary from the previous information the field which you might want explicitly specify might biclrused for bit and bit images this field indicates that not all the possible color entries are used and that the image contains biclrused colors you are using only colors with bit image then you may only want save the possible palette entries generally set this field zero march color palettes each entry color palette rgbquad structure the rgbquad structure defined the windows include file typedef struct tagrgbquad byte rgbblue byte rgbgreen byte rgbred byte rgbreserved rgbquad the rgbreserved field always zero for each color used the amount blue green and red are filled into the structure and the structure written the file value zero the rgbblue rgbgreen rgbred fields indicates that that particular component does not contribute the color composition value any these fields indicates that the component contributes fully the color composition image data there are three surprises about the ordering image data dib image file the creator this format was determined creative and certainly was within the image data each line written out padded the next four byte quantity you had bit image which was only one pixel wide you still have write out four bytes for every image line the number bytes per line can calculated bytes per line width pix bit depth terms the fields the bitmapinfoheader structure bytes per line biwidth bibitcount when writing out your image data you must write out bottom line first the bottom line the image you would look the screen the first line image data the file for bit bit and bit images information written you would expect one bit images are padded eight pixels byte four bit images are padded two pixels byte eight bit images are written one pixel per byte twenty four bit images are written three bytes per pixel however for bit images the information must written out the order blue green red while most image file formats write data out march rgb ordering dib image file writes the data out bgr ordering summary this should provide enough information create dib images from applications such scanners for image exporting routines you find out any more about dib images please pass the information that can modify this document accordingly march thomas kinsman rochester thomas acadia kodak com practice random kindness and senseless acts beauty anon ito takayuki yuki tokyo senior department infomation science faculty science university tokyo japan
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	telemate windows help have very funny yet confusing problem using telemate within win everytime close dos box telemate operation get affected normally doing file transfer however open close windows program everything seems running smoothly file transfer operation get affected only close dos box can somebody please gimme some pointers what going and how fix thanks advance glenn jayaputera
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	changing windows fonts friend mine uses windows most her work unfortunately she has very bad eyesight and haven been able figure out how change the default font used the system and application menus the font used the help program what use hypertext you can read make legible her anyone knows how increase the size these fonts any software package that makes windows more accessible visually handicapped people please let know thanks dan
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article uceng edu bferrell ant occ edu brett ferrell writes article may hubcap clemson edu ludes hubcap clemson edu larry ludes ludwig writes munch you must read too many advertisements crash protection such marketing gimick isn funny out months using windows new machine only had crash once and don have run the mill configuration munch following reformatted does sound funny will admit but for true windows crashed all the time and from what have read mag this not the exception say that the massive crash problems are exceedingly rare windows itself almost never crashes but can crashed errant application personal favorite any one the corel programs the other hand have had crash randomly number times mostly just running own applications for instance today discovered new one while was downloading with procomm plus for windows running seamless with the standard vga drivers run mill vga card decided that wanted edit copy quote that wanted add finger but since learned not really trust seamless fired full screen winos session whoops the download finished while winos was loading had just gotten the pointer hit alt escape get back the desktop have lot fonts loading takes good long while blam screen trashed procomm hangs well can sorta see the mouse clicked the minimized winos session and got back fullscreen windows session but the color were off red and green and yellow and brown instead blues and greys closed this and got back the desktop now fully restored was still sitting window open but was longer connected the com port exited the normal way told was still online and would hang though was already hung well load anothe bad idea shutdown and reboot refresh first now shutdown yes everything closed nothing seems happening let see the windows list still comes let try shutdown again huh alright wait seconds see just running slow hmm still seems running try shutdown again nothing well reboot enjoy the checkdisk time this case part the crashed not only itself but entirely which isn even smart enough tell when been compromised guess everyday specifically today use gives each windows app vdm and they can touch each other generally anything they aren supposed have that the idea anyway truth when program crashes will bring the system down with the programs that would just gpf under windows the same under but programs that are fine under dos and windows bring screaming halt task protection for instance still wondering why print preview windowed dos locks system works fine under dos even dos box under windows admittedly doesn crash run full screen but the first time this bug big bit hard windows works for you then great maybe this why some people don see why the choice windows doesn crash you and you don mind waiting each task please explain the only time wait anything under windows when copying formatting floppy when printing and even then not long get pages dumped the printman per minute and can still things slowly while doing this downloaded with while printing and not being able adress your memory better than dos not sure what you mean here sees megs uses six these for own use more you want count winos windows sees megs uses more like you count the disk cache for for itself memory efficiency were big issue geos would the current king the intel desktop some the key reasons for using are gone probably would still use but would more even fight the other hand finally able say with some confidence that both and windows have bit hardware sensitivity them for instance the machine sitting runs both fine while the machine next constantly locks under windows but ran without hitch once got through crash install the whole say whole lot more sensitive than windows but there are suppose machines that windows just doesn like wittism week think that wrong believe ism you should believe yourself ferrish bueller wasn this ferris bueller there are stupid laws and then there are stupider than normal laws
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	nextstep intel sneak preview reminder phang the philadelphia area nextstep user group will holding public sneak preview nextstep for intel processors where david rittenhouse labs room and walnut southeast corner philadelphia when wednesday may nextstep the bit unix based operating environment which has until now only been available motorola based next computers the may issue magazine called nextstep hot prospect now next nearing release version nextstep which will run based yet identical the version fact nextstep includes the ability easily compile program into single binary which will run both intel and motorola hardware nextstep for intel processors will demonstrated epson progression computer nextstep scheduled for release may nextworld expo san francisco the demonstration will open the public come one come all you are interested seeing the most advanced operating system around come for brief summary what nextstep offers see the may issue magazine page for more information contact jonathan hendry phang the philadelphia area nextstep user group jon afs com jonathan hendry drexel university college info studies tjhendry queen mcs drexel edu the experience programming windows the experience programming nextstep like going the dentist and having root canal without anaesthetic going the dentist and having your gums cleaned some nitrous oxide thrown for the entertainment side things bbum stone jonathan hendry drexel university college info studies tjhendry queen mcs drexel edu the experience programming windows the experience programming nextstep like going the dentist and having root canal without anaesthetic going the dentist and having your gums cleaned some nitrous oxide thrown for the entertainment side things bbum stone
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters previous article thomasez dhhalden thomas lundquist wrote they invented the how make money others ideas they made money they weren the air the wrong time hewhalesshavethewhalesshavethewhalesshavebillgatesshavethewhalesshavethew doesn have beard rob being pointless wondeing anyone else caught that any resemblance between the above views and rob those faculty advisor terminal mohns the view out window are purely coinci dental richard traina may may not rmohns vax support said views but probably doesn clarku edu want clarkies think about them
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	required file format word for window file doc article cosmosc bcz kee netcom com cosmos netcom com cosmos writes trying develop utility view word for window file but that need know the format the doc word for window file format files can anybody tell what the format doc file direct where can get proprietory format your help greatly appriciated thanks the format for word for windows doc files available from microsoft call their developer support services number sorry don have handy and ask for the word for windows binary file format spec warning not terribly useful and you will need lot looking before you can figure out how the stuff stored general primer word for windows stores its data two chunks the first chunk the actual text the file this all stored together and has nothing but text and graphics the second chunk the formatting information for general use read word for windows file skip the first bytes the file its general header then read the remaining text until you hit binary data matt
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article may wam umd edu rsrodger wam umd edu yamanari writes article uceng edu bferrell ant occ edu brett ferrell writes article may hubcap clemson edu ludes hubcap clemson edu larry ludes ludwig writes and not being able adress your memory better than dos not sure what you mean here sees megs uses six these for own use more you want count winos windows sees megs uses more like you count the disk cache for for itself memory efficiency were big issue geos would the current king the intel desktop assumed was referring bit flat model addressing while dos and therefore windows use bit segmented addressing programmer agree that segmentation unnecessarily complicates things annoying too but when just windows user don think about much and doubt many other people think about even care when just writing document calcing spreadsheet etc works and they get their work done just neutral comment funny think how arguments about windows sound very similar arguments about atheism christianity something like that somehow very personal people convictions are irrational and there nothing wrong with that just interesting brad smalling tech atlanta prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters rsrodger wam umd edu yamanari writes say that the massive crash problems are exceedingly rare windows itself almost never crashes but can crashed errant application personal favorite any one the corel programs the other hand have had crash randomly number times mostly just running own applications know that ibm systems the slc particular have absolutely problem with never had random crash while running any programs under fact don remember ever crashing course really don run any programs just the same bunch dos and windows stuff that always been running and when had the slc this the slc system running dos windows had only one crash and was consistent ftp had tendency crash whenever would get large files from particularly fast clients dtr sec figured out the problem was with smartdrv write buffering turned off the write buffer everything would work fine ftp under has never locked though can even format floppies use the most often cited example the superiority for instance still wondering why print preview windowed dos locks system yeah guess willing admit that somewhat sensitive specific hardware for dos works perfectly fine slc please explain the only time wait anything under windows when copying formatting floppy when printing and even then not long get pages dumped the printman per minute and can still things slowly while doing this downloaded with while printing well save all personal files floppy and when did that under windows floppy save large file hung the system also found quite bothersome have continually tweak the tasking options fractint for dos whenever wanted fractal computation the background and not being able address your memory better than dos not sure what you mean here the idea that dos sessions can see more memory than windows dos sessions let xpl shareware calculus program see around free conventional memory which lets bigger symbolic manipulations than possible under straight dos where would see around conventional ram also found really handy for own dos based programs which without any writing could now handle larger data sets simulate for more iterations etc course the point now moot since the programs now write simply never run into memory limitations never programmed for windows don have much comparison here though
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	some info the dos msw meltdown progressing nicely mfraioli grebyn com marc fraioli writes messina netcom com tony porczyk writes ajayshah almaak usc edu ajay shah writes the preferred applications development platform unix dos msw development what house apps maybe but certainly not apps sold open market statistics like that are laughable actually you might surprised find that not everyone who develops mainstream dos and windows apps develops them under dos windows week recently printed rumor that microsoft excel development group does its development under you believe that have nice piece for swamp for you for development microsoft does even its techpubs under windows another trade rag did article recently about group doing windows development sun sparcstations with softpc test out their work that wasn geo works was dos and windows are simply not robust stable enough for development work imho and apparently others agree nonsense sorry make fun windows all the time but the above simply myth tell that microsoft novell and others who dominate the market
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	coda music finale and petrucci font problem been using final from coda for some time but suddenly stopped using fonts have with lots disk space and memory postscript laser win finale and recently installed atm been fiddling around with the windows setup for some time and when needed some work with finale things didn print properly might and might not have anything with the installation atm from something but don have the old atm lying around anomore the most annoying problem was that the petrucci font didn print which rather important font managed get direct printing work included ownps the finale section win ini but compile postscript listing still doesn work and those eps files need when look the eps files generated the only font which appears there courier found out that manually changed the courier point petrucci point the eps file everything worked but rather avoid that since have lot songs work with and yes the special font font names dialog box all the fonts need are listed with the correct mapping between finale screen and printer fonts finale obviously aware the fonts since direct printing score works well that after included ownps and all other windows applications print petrucci and the other fonts well has anyone encountered problems like this what the current version finale from coda music software have are the people coda available internet grateful for all hints and help mats internet mats gar quikcomm mats gar genor serverp mats garp mats tande oslo telemax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how can make mpeg sound hello install one wav driver speaker then install mpeg phoenix oulu pub incoming mpeg mpegexe zip windows but when load one mpeg file and make sound type wav mpeg always say error when load one mpeg file which have wav file wav then select sound type wav normal and error but still can hear sound what should fix the sounddrv number mfw ini thankx for any help internet address nctu edu english name erik wang chinese name wang jyh shyang national chiao tung university taiwan
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	why not using dos anymore article apr hubcap clemson edu charlea eng clemson edu writes regarding the horror stories about dos doubledisk and stacker killing hard drives was wondering the dos mirror command works the doubled drive info well the normal fat table and partition table records the vital doubledisk info then using daily should long way toward protecting yourself against the type catastrophic failure discussed doesn then shame microsoft mirror one those dos commands that didn survive the change from dos been dropped along with backup join edlin and couple other crummy old dos commands you can still use the commands you absolutely have but they are not included the distribution disks however mirror case certain that does not know anything about doublespaced drives eric eric trepanier internet eric tgm cam org grenon laval quebec everybody has right believe something canada believe have another beer
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows how get the beta was just wondering anyone new how could get the beta version windows and part the beta program thanks gel binkley mcgill please reply mail
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	novell and windows working workstation which usually attached novell network using shell version think the workstation was set run windows with the network about year ago needless say like upgrade windows and have work with the network basically the windows files the local hard drive but several dos applications like word perfect will the network mainly want windows access the network drives the network printers and perhaps handle some network functions well could multitask the dos apps whose executables are the network that great but could live without eventually like get few other the office working with the network and windows well however most the terminals are which leaves the network pretty much dos bound and guess that leaves out windows for workgroups and the future maybe there norton desktop but that gettingahead myself you can guess never done anything like this before read through the networks material that came with windows but still like know anyone out there has any experience such area please reply email don scan these newsgroups often thanks for any replies brian rev siano revpk cellar org well know right away the look her eyes she lost all illusions and she worldly wise and know give her listen she what been missing what been missing lost love and havin some fun with cynical girl who got use for the real world looking for cynical girl marshall crenshaw cynical girl
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	drivers for stealth debrown hubcap clemson edu david brown writes doug ward writes recently purchased diamond stealth video card and received the wrong drivers does anyone know where can ftp the proper drivers the dstlth file cica does not work with this video card please respond doug sun sws uiuc edu thank you doug ward you want get them and get them now also the most date use the bbs they may take hour download when rates are low yeah know costs but locking your system gets old quick maybe someone has them the net got the stealth drivers david the number you gave the borland bbs and darned can find any stealth drivers there diamond bbs according the manual got with stealth have had bunch trouble using the right drivers that came with the card locking syncing etc hope you better than dave
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	video benchmarks wanted trying compile chart for windows and dos performance local bus video card you have and one the local bus video cards below please email your winbench and dbench obtainable ftp wustl edu pub msdos uploads scores please give winmark score and will post the chart enough response received tseng vlb vlb based local bus card ati ultra pro vlb orchid celsius vlb agx based vlb cards they exist matox mga based video cards thanks all
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	need help recording key mousestrokes windows sorry about confusing subject summary keywords postgrad researcher esl applied linguistics edith cowan university perth western australia desperately need help need record the results word processing sessions windows that can sit down and replay the results research subjects wordprocessing behaviours naturally can this with the windows macrorecorder and other apps windows but cannot pause resume all can ctrl break get out this useless for researcher who needs able pause the wordprocessing session replaying make notes annotations and then resume from where left off just about commence research for masters thesis and would extremely grateful for any assistance anyone can help could they mail johnoliver odin dialix many thanks advance john oliver
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	postscript bmp conversion all working project visual basic ver and need show postcript files getting from another aplication because can show postscript directly form visual basic least don know how need utility convert them bmp wmf any help will appreshieated kobi elimelech messges can sent kobi asimov hacktic
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	need iconized printer utility looking for printer utility which stay window icon and let you drag file issue the printing
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters hey larry how can you comp sci major and never crash damn computer what does your dept teach you are you just that good programmer that not one your assembly programs have ever downed your machine crash protection such marketing gimick isn funny out months using windows new machine only had crash once and don have run the mill configuration why you bother putting such stupid posts are you that ignorant bob campbell clarkson university potsdam campbers craft clarkson edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	need iconized printer utility article zhao auvm american edu zhao auvm american edu writes looking for printer utility which stay window icon and let you drag file issue the printing you have one minimize the print manager and drag file and will print you need associate file extensions with such things the notepad for this though tony annese claebaur shell portal com claebaur cup portal com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters yamanari hey isn funny how betas have bugs them hey favor and don put stupid posts bob clarkson university potsdam campbers craft clarkson edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	replacement for program article uupcb idcbbs com les tom idcbbs com les tom writes maw ying yuan wrote from yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu maw ying yuan subject replacement for program manager and file manager message juj news hawaii edu date thu apr gmt replacements for win program manager and file manager yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu been using plannet crafter plug for program manager the best one seen ceo sloop software they have sharware version but the retail version only incredibly complete subfolders any level choose any icon hot keys drop down menus button bars etc haven found anything doesn try mailing compuserve com for details tom tom hansen beard grows toes never wears tom vpnet chi clothes wraps hair around bare and yam what yam down the road goes shel silverstein
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	why mouse jumpy mouse everyone seems think that this man mouse problem mechanical its dirty have been having similar problem with mouse and only occurs when nning windows and therefore cannot mechanical nature running mouse systems compatible mouse with trident meg video card and experienceing similar jumpiness well strange font subsitutions and mous traces left screen and windows gpf errors help
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	need iconized printer utility article eval unix portal com claebaur shell portal com tony annese writes article zhao auvm american edu zhao auvm american edu writes looking for printer utility which stay window icon and let you drag file issue the printing you have one minimize the print manager and drag file and will print you need associate file extensions with such things the notepad for this though tony annese claebaur shell portal com claebaur cup portal com this may work but won involve invoking the applications you drag bmp txt file the min print manager icon won run notepad and paintbrush before printing you just want drag file txt bmp print server icon with stay front attributes you need intelligent print manager drag and drop client like amish print ted
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	off line mail for netnews are there any off line mail readers for the net news qwk format would really helpfull able download the net news from vax mainframe and read off line adam hodge arhodge miavx acs muohio edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	need iconized printer utility article ezhn jlq tsoft net tedm tsoft net ted matsumura writes article eval unix portal com claebaur shell portal com tony annese writes you have one minimize the print manager and drag file and will print you need associate file extensions with such things the notepad for this though this may work but won involve invoking the applications you drag bmp txt file the min print manager icon won run notepad and paintbrush before printing you just want drag file txt bmp print server icon with stay front attributes you need intelligent print manager drag and drop client like amish print yes invokes the associated application that takes but seconds tony annese claebaur shell portal com claebaur cup portal com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	problem dos box from windows this file compressed started getting message from windows whenever try execute dos program from windows either thru the program manager the file manager message box comes and says this program one its components compressed use the dos expand command expand the file now know this bogus because can always execute the program from dos when not running windows the program question command com yup the basic dos command line shell and the expand command tells that the file already expanded all windows apps work just fine only get this message when trying execute dos program from windows clues anyone thanks christopher wroten cfw world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wordbasic time date variables writing mail management system using word for windows front end the user dials remote system and downloads batch mail foo txt set autoexec macro winword load foo txt but subsequent invocations the macro will course pose file name contention problems what really like create autoexit macro winword that would move foo txt specified directory rename using the current date and time and delete the original foo txt other words foo txt gets renamed say may the user gets time indexed backup his mail files and foo txt freed for the next packet mail since autoexec macro points main question this how may one rename file from within wordbasic macro include time date variable the new filename thanks you ever reach total enlightenment while drinking beer bet makes beer shoot out your nose jack handey erich lantz ewl world std com timberville dod
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	changing windows fonts previous article ellard husc harvard edu daniel ellard says friend mine uses windows most her work unfortunately she has very bad eyesight and haven been able figure out how change the default font used the system and application menus the font used the help program what use hypertext you can read make legible her anyone knows how increase the size these fonts any software package that makes windows more accessible visually handicapped people please let know thanks dan the may issue computing page has windows hint and tips for just this thing you have edit the win ini file and add couple lines tried and works actually made title bar and iconized text and icon text smaller monitor works well you can select larger font also you edit the win ini file with font name your system directory read the article because would not want retype here case type errored and caused your system problems artin this communication sent artin university arizona tucson cleveland freenet edu mlinsenb ccit arizona edu mlinsenb arizvms death has been dead for about years follow the king kings
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	which sound board buy well come into some money and want buy rom sound board and speakers have not kept any material relating sound boards and rom because until now never thought have enough money can you guru out there point the direction good package including rom sound and speakers and software suppose since don really need the rom right now give some good ideas for sound boards and speakers those could really use now have looked soundblaster pro which costs about much think want spend board and looked the gravis sound board which about and don know the adv disadv either these boards right now want use with any games that support sound and use windows utilize sound capabilities there any concise info sound boards complete multimedia packages etc would greatly appreciated anyone else interested this info would glad summarize responses and post and this some type faq please point the right direction and don bother taking lot bandwidth thanks brett brett watson database system administrator kansas supreme court topeka
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows and ati ultra mach chip sizing question article watserv uwaterloo mike tancsa mdtancsa watarts uwaterloo writes have just upgraded from trident tvga ati graphics ultra the old mach chip quite pleased with the performance far but have one problem when using windows have noticed that the tile bars and scroll bars are significantly larger than they were when was using the trident card there setting ini files that can change make these smaller could not find the faq for this list mike mdtancsa watarts uwaterloo make sure you use the small fonts driver not the large fonts driver check that your setup that the only explanation would find hope this helps gel
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	when will ready when will able call favorite mail order software shop and buy jeff dragovich dragovic cevax uiuc edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	why mouse jumpy mouse article cunyvm bitnet cunyvm bitnet writes everyone seems think that this man mouse problem mechanical its dirty have been having similar problem with mouse and only occurs when nning windows and therefore cannot mechanical nature its understanding that bus mice are more accurate and stable general than serial mice remember correctly its because the differences how the interrupts are handled well the fact that the mouse data received over the computer bus opposed bps serial connection running mouse systems compatible mouse with trident meg video card and experienceing similar jumpiness well strange font subsitutions and mous traces left screen and windows gpf errors help this just general problem associated with specific application group applications
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	emm and windows hallo ebosco oracle com wrote about emm and windows von ebosco oracle com name eric bosco should use emm should remove from config sys basically windows prefers extendend memory instead expanded more work for win and application desperatly needs ems you should leave emm with rem your config sys bye chris
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wordbasic visual basic macros template working with visual basic for windows specifically working application that generates formatted reports since some these reports can rather large first question there way increase the size list box text box visual basic windows beyond the limit have not yet being optimistic come across way get around the above problem working the following approach trying create own defined template word using the wordbasic macros that can open word from visual basic and load this template mine which will work the following way will first open myown ini file created the time when the user selected the kind report weanted and read the section from the ini file and jump the appropriate code template which will then open and read file pertaining the section read from the ini file when using the getprofilestring function wordbasic there way specify change the default ini file which win ini myown ini file when using the file input function wordbasic there way read more than the one time any help will appreciated pgupta magnus acs ohio state edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	recommendation for screen capture program looking for some recommendations for screen capture programs couple issues ago mag listed editor choices both conversion artist and hijaak for windows anyone have any experience with those some others trying get alpha manual the next few days and not making much progress with the screen shots currently using dodot and about burn and the disks rode got lot freaky bugs and oversights that are driving crazy tonight decided that for any graphic writes out tiff file that under certain arbitrary size will swap the left and right sides the picture usually confines itself not copying things the clipboard have save and load pix for editing paintbrush crashing every hour the one nice thing has though dither option you think that this would turn colors into dots which does you from say colors colors but you from colors you can set threshold level for which colors turn black and which turn white for this useful because can turn light grays buttons white and the dark grays black and thereby preserve the effect buttons and other parts the window you understood description can you tell another less buggy program can this well much thanks for any help signature david delgreco what lies behind and what lies technically writer before are tiny matters compared delgreco rahul net what lies within oliver wendell holmes david delgreco delgreco rahul net
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	hercules graphite results tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes has anyone used hercules graphite adapter looks good paper and steve gibson gave very good review infoworld love get real world impression though how the speed drivers support rda monu monash edu wuysang writes but the impressive performance the graphite was not its winmark was its wintach result esp the paint performance judging from the wintach tests can hardly imagine that there cheat driver for received graphite thursday and had little bit experience with now general feels fast although this the first vlb card that have tried still the results are impressive with running had the following wintach results card cad spread paint overall ati graphics ultra ati ultra aperture hercules graphite unfortunately don have the numbers here but the ati ultra pro vlb had overall wintach score about the ultra pro was nearly fast text handling but was blown away the cad and paint tests additional test hand timed complex coreldraw slide resize redraw times there was swapping but expect there fairly heavy load the cpu the graphite redraw times averaged about seconds with ati ultra pro this jives with steve gibson contention that the isa graphite faster than ati his complex micrografx draw document far very impressed the drivers look solid and the card flies the installation and utilities are different but comparable ati and didn have wait for build for some reliability with hercules software developer special you can get evaluation copy the card for just for the isa version call you want give try happy customer now tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo ont stick your index fingers into both corners your mouth now pull that how the corrado makes you feel car january
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	opinions wanted fastest win driver for yesterday friend mine got new driver for his card that more than doubled the speed naturally besides being tad jealous same machine different cards got thinking what using slow driver wouldn that horrible netlanders need samples your collective experience sic you proud owners trident video card vram have tried out more than one driver fro win which which the fastest not selfish and give you motive for responding promise going collect all the answers and the actual drivers provided give site get from uuencode mail get the winmarks using magazine winbench and post the results here interested svga drivers only plain vga users should run the win driver this what heard dont flame particularly and that should cover the majority svga users well what are you waiting for hit that whatever all input welcome are money and sun sparcstations thanx advance costas malamas georgia institute technology oit oit doesn pay enough share their opinions internet ccastco prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article may vax clarku edu rmohns vax clarku edu writes and would hardly call command that can delete tree and move command state the art wiz bang feature they are damn necessary have often cursed not being able have some kind recursive delete you are missing something with the windows file manager you can but don want have run blasted windows every time want delete tree absolutely ludicrous load hog like that just delete some files would like requiring crane change the tyre car wants people buy windows not dos knows dos won last forever only because its crap which noones fault but their own they want you move windows then later win and eventually cairo this way they give you reason deliberately crippling the product surely hold guess you right that certainly stinks microsoft marketing techniques but the point still remains that command delete trees not new technology and the kind thing one would have expected see long before windows was even dreamt want good file handling use fileman exe this product requires microsoft windows dos dead well amen that but wish were damn sight deader for dead product its used awful lot and suspect its going carry twitching for long while yet which isn doing anyone any good and microsoft don appear have given marketing dos very unusual form death indeed tim walls sysop protocol bbs data fax fidonet amiganet twalls ncc demon pgp public key available
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	equation editor article may iitmax iit edu vaxtools chico acc iit edu falke bruinsma wildthing writes hiya using word for windows and quite satisfied with except the equation editor screws all the time when try insert equation will give two errors fence font not found and meta font not found the real problem that will not display print out the integral sign does anyone else have this problem and how solve using sport laptop with panasonic printer running msdos and windows thanks falke all had that problem you need expand the fonts manually the program decomp disk the equations fonts are disk have fun gel
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	true type atm seen from typographically point view atm using postscript fonts better than truetype the hinting mechanism incorporated gorgeous multilingual users may see the limit possible different characters font problematically they may have better use the unicode features fonts windows seen lots really beautiful and printable small size fonts haven seen those fonts most them are rendering quite inaccurate small sizes esp screen fonts simply compare timesnewroman font with the font the first looks better hoping that there will atm claudius mokler mail mokler desert berlin
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	where find diamond speedstar drivers the subject says nearly everything talking about the accellerator card note the not about the product without please mail the address appropriate ftp server thanx claudius mokler mail mokler desert berlin
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	control systems analysis package cosy pak updated for mathematica announcing cosy pak symbolic control systems analysis package version user fee release for mathematica version higher introduction cosy pak set packages and notebooks for classical control and some modern state space control analysis and design methods the notebooks cosy pak follow typical control engineering course taught many universities around the world for the junior senior level undergraduates there fee use cosy pak but certain responsibilities are expected the user see copyright notice the readme file included below for starters mail fax mail post the registration form included the readme file cosy pak available via anonymous ftp from mishna esys cwru edu internet the pub directory typical ftp session unix given after the readme file future releases you would like receive updates and newer versions cosy pak please send mail fax mail the address below addition your comments and suggestions are appreciated and are invaluable will our best fix any reported bugs however cannot fix those bugs that have not been reported and those not know would very much appreciate you taking few minutes communicate via mail mail telephone fax this will help release bug free versions the future comments are welcome sreenath systems engineering department case school engineering case western reserve university mail sree mishna cwru edu mail prof sreenath tel systems engg crawford hall fax case western reserve univ cleveland begin readme file user fee release cosy pak symbolic control systems analysis package version for mathematica version higher chen sreenath systems engineering case school engineering case western reserve university cleveland mail sree mishna cwru edu copyright copyright copyright chen and sreenath case western reserve university permission use copy modify and distribute this software and its documentation for any purpose and without fee hereby granted provided that the above copyright notice appear supporting documentation and the name the case western reserve university case school engineering not used advertising publicity pertaining distribution the software without specific without prior permission case western reserve university makes representations about the suitability this software for any purpose provided with out express implied warranty acknowledgements support from cwru information and network services ray neff case alumni association the lilly foundation and the systems engineering department case western reserve university gratefully acknowledged special thanks brian evans georgia tech for all the help ftp cosy pak available anonymous ftp from mishna esys cwru edu internet sample ftp session given the end this file changes version update from this version have revised cosy pak take advantage the more robust signal processing functions available mathematica since mathematica provides better and working laplacetransform and inverselaplacetransform functions than mathematica did adopted them this has made cosy pak smaller thus brian evans signal processing packages that supported the laplacetransform and inverselaplacetransform functions the cosy pak are longer needed directly cosy pak for power users who use signal processing still recommend the use the very fine brian evans package signal processing available the anonymous ftp site gauss eedsp gatech edu the downside the disadvantage this update can that mathematica requires more runtime resources than its previous version for mathematica users have included the laplacetransform package from mathematica the directory for please move all files and directory under for into the calculus directory under mathematica packages directory introduction this unsupported release cosy pak control systems analysis package for symbolic control systems analysis using mathematica classical control systems analysis and design methods and some modern control systems methods have been implemented this package this package and the attendant notebooks were developed next computer unix based workstation they have been used supplementary teaching aid along with standard control engineering texts ogata phillips and harbor for undergraduate courses control engineering taught the systems engineering department cwru addition the next they have also been tested successfully apple macintosh computers and ibm running windows would very much interested hear from you you anybody you know uses this software platforms not mentioned above ibm users however will have evaluate the notebooks first visualize the graphics once installed see below for instructions this collection mathematica packages can loaded any user bundled with the packages are many notebooks cosy notes which demonstrate the functionality these packages the notebooks follow plan many fine standard undergraduate control engineering text books listed the references examples used these notebooks have been collected from the various references given the end this file the contents the notebooks the cosy notes directory are given below begin cosy notes contents notebook file name introduction chapter introduction control systems sections analyticity poles and zeros signals forward laplace transforms inverse laplace transforms differential equation with zero valued initial conditions differential equation with initial conditions notebook file name math models chapter mathematical modeling dynamic systems sections ode state space linearization nonlinear system equations state space transfer function notebook file name transient response chapter transient response analysis chapter split into three sub notebooks because file size notebook file name transient response sections time response analysis first order system second order system third order and higher order systems notebook file name transient response sections first order system step response time const notebook file name transient response sections second order system step response damping ratio notebook file name steady state response chapter steady state response sections routh stability steady state error analysis notebook file name root locus chapter root locus analysis notebook file name freq response chapter frequency response analysis sections bode plot analysis magnitude phase plot nichols plot polar plot nyquist plot combined example notebook file name state space chapter state space methods sections introduction state transition matrix controllability observability output controllability pole placement design observer design time response using state space methods end notebook contents compressed files the files that contain complete set the cosy pak packages and notebooks for mathematica are cosy pak tar compressed tar file for unix systems cosy pak sit hqx compressed sit file for macintosh systems and encoded binhex format requires the shareware stuffit file higher cosy pak ibm zip zip file for the ibm running dos once expanded the mathematica files can also used macintosh ibm unix systems also installation cosy pak unix command line type the following command zcat cosy pak tar tar xvf macintosh open the sit hqx file using the shareware stuffit higher ibm command line type the following command pkunzip cosy pak ibm zip note this zip file was zipped zip utility you must use pkunzip version higher unzip ibm may limit the directory name characters eight that event type pkunzip cosy pak zip you can also unzip the cosy pak ibm zip file any unix machine you have unzip utility uncompressing and untarring cosy pak tar unzipping cosy pak ibm zip will create directory called cosy pak once the files are expanded you should see single directory cosy pak containing the following three files four sub directories and their contents sub directories cosy pak cosypak contains control tool box packages manual cosy pak manual rtf txt and formats cosy notes contains notebooks for contains laplace transform package from mathematica for mathematica users files directory cosypak chap chap chap chap chap chap chap files directory cosy notes introduction math model transient response transient response transient response steady state response root locus freq response state space files directory for laplacetransform diracdelta sub directories cosy pak common files directory common support important the notebook example files files will under the cosy notes directory use the notebooks move the directory cosypak directory that mathematica can recognize locallibrary mathematica packages unix machine harddisk mathematica packages apple macintosh winmath packages ibm the beginning the initialization cell each notebook cosy notes directory list the example about how make mathematica identify the directory initialization path example for unix machine default path join path locallibrary mathematica packages example for apple macintosh path join path harddisk mathematica packages example for ibm path join path winmath packages change the pathname according your machine removing the mathematica comment sign and before and after path setting this command makes mathematica recognize the directory locallibrary mathematica packages unix machine harddisk mathematica packages apple macintosh winmath packages ibm mathematica users include the laplacetransform package from mathematica the directory for please move all files and directory under for into the calculus directory under mathematica packages directory getting started after installation start mathematica and open the notebooks the cosy notes directory all notebooks load their own packages navigate the notebooks and enjoy ibm users however will have evaluate the notebooks visualize the graphics user responsibilities request you take few minutes and fill out the information below and mail mail fax mail this will help keep your abreast the improvements and release new versions cosy pak suggestions for improvements are welcome cut here your name organization title mail postal address comments suggestions cut here mail this information mail fax mail internet sree mishna cwru edu mail prof sreenath tel systems engg crawford hall fax case western reserve univ cleveland report bugs please report bugs and leave comments the address above any suggestion for improvements and criticism are welcome will our best fix any reported bugs however cannot fix those bugs that have not been reported and those not know would very much appreciate you taking few minutes communicate via mail mail telephone fax this will help release bug free versions the future disclaimer and future releases this software the property the case western reserve university use this software your own risk make express implied warranty the packages and the notebooks can also made run under mathematica versions lower with modification not guarantee the outcome documentation cosy pak functions are indexed the files the manual directory according the chapters usage illustrated notebooks residing cosy notes directory your computer does not support notebooks find macintosh computer and acquire mathreader which public domain notebook reader mathreader will least allow you peruse notebooks but you will not able evaluate any code fragments references dorf modern control systems sixth edition addison wesley new york fortmann and hitz introduction linear control systems marcel dekker franklin powell and emami naeini feedback control dynamic systems second edition addison wesley new york kuo automatic control systems sixth edition prentice hall new jersey ogata modern control engineering second edition prentice hall new jersey phillips and harbor feedback control systems second edition prentice hall new jersey end readme file typical ftp session ftp mishna esys cwru edu connected mishna mishna ftp server version next sun nov ready name mishna esys cwru edu sree anonymous password ftp pub ftp binary ftp port command successful opening ascii mode data connection for file list cosy pak tar cosy pak ibm zip index readme places wmd cosy pak untar transfer complete bytes received seconds kbytes ftp get cosy pak tar port command successful opening binary mode data connection for cosy pak tar bytes transfer complete local cosy pak tar remote cosy pak tar bytes received seconds kbytes ftp quit goodbye
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows video driver got old super vga card manufactured sampo taiwan and looking for windows driver for based the cirrus logic chip contacted the suppliers here new zealand and they say that only windows divers were ever written the manufacturer there driver out for this chip set like know preferably mail rjwjames waikato thanks advance ross james
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	text editor handle large files the title says does anyone know text editor like notepad that can handle large text files thanx for any and all help james burke reading this you agree not hold the writer responsible for any evil jburke abacus bates edu happening that may befall you any time
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article slalp tamsun tamu edu jeffw tamu edu jeffrey waller writes article may microsoft com jenk microsoft com jen kilmer writes article uceng edu bferrell ant occ edu brett ferrell writes article may microsoft com cliffga microsoft com clifford garrett writes guess thats why there are many new dos and applications coming and hardly any windows apps coming out irony yep the apps are comming the apps are comming yet another micro minion hoping that says something long enough hey remember the good old days running alpha with brief excel word and couple internal apps product support database client based email front end life was good but was also impractical cause the masses were using windows and job was help the masses apparently you prefer windows least did windows yes you last comment you mean that your knowledge dated must argue definitely dated used alpha when msft was developing suspect that the masses were using windows because they couldn afford use can you say much for preferred windows because was more stable faster than but could still run more apps than again made this choice before was released but getting back the original question you have any data the relative avaliablity windows applications versus applications any evidence that stated support will dropped any the above seen such data grow other companies are supporting make points please you see life terms debating points think you need grow yes remember the days when kids would engage orderly debate but our parents would usually find out and force act the more mature manner heaping invective and casting rocks and dirt clods hee hee good one doesn help microsoft have employees assume you are due the org may wrong saying such trivial things the net microsoft employs over employees walking into this place not like walking into the commercial there are individuals here you think they all talk the same way say the same thing and help microsoft all the time why appears that voicing his frustration attitude has encountered before and one that encountered well the other hand have had such experience other than from reading this thread you microsoft are unique position present facts hmm are you sure speaking from own experience user certainly people say the marketing group would unique position present the results say research upcoming and apps windows and dos apps part point was that just cause one works microsoft does not mean one has access such data exists but prefer make baseless claims attack poster must make the same conclusion will confess times attacking the poster usenet accounts are not restricted the marketroids they open any fulltimer and are primarily for recreational purposes yeah some are likely answer question hop into debate make stupid comments you know like human beings sorry this newsgroup only for opressed hackers and stranded extraterrestrials not humans how about alt microsoft humans you seem discount others anyway again point was that not all microsofties are here sell readers our products which would conflict with the ads philosophy usenet nor necessarily have access info that others have also get tired people assuming that microsofties are like members the borg jen include stdisclaimer jenk microsoft com msdos testing
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article may infodev cam tjrc cus cam cutts writes even point still stands extent that limits appear all over the place where they really are not necessary such the edit control limit while the limit may not necessary limitation they probably fall within the category reasonable limitations you find yourself trying allocate edit control for more than text probably time take good look your program design why there such small limit the number global memory handles allowed what way small number seems that you hit the wall many other ways before you hit the systemwide limit global handles unless course you abusing globalalloc and please don try tell that impossible abuse the resources available under other operating systems all systems have limits the question whether not the limits are reasonable far you haven offered single argument which suggests that windows limits are any less reasonable than limits other systems rick schaut uucp uunet beaver microsoft richs microsoft doesn speak for and don speak for microsoft
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	using mouse dos window there way use the mouse when running dos app windowed win when you window dos apps enhanced mode can see where the mouse cursor was but doesn work any help would greatly appreciated thank you hansang bae hbae cwis unomaha edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	driver for chips technologies video board needed would like find windows driver for video board that based the chips technologies chipset the actual board scorpion framegrabber made univision based the chipset but only barely supports the graphics mode hoping that any driver could used the mode thanks stephen corbesero systems manager and adjucnt lecturer memorial drive west corbesero eecs lehigh edu eecs dept lehigh university sgc lehigh edu bethlehem voice fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	any utility that let you remap the keyboard under win any utility that let you remap the keyboard under win thanks for any pointer
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article twalls ncc demon twalls ncc demon tim walls writes from twalls ncc demon tim walls subject challenge microsoft supporters date mon may article may vax clarku edu rmohns vax clarku edu writes but don want have run blasted windows every time want delete tree absolutely ludicrous load hog like that just delete some files would like requiring crane change the tyre car you don and never had that what enhanced shells are for remember dos and ndos mean come you can expect dos cover everything from microsoft has other projects work they want you move windows then later win and eventually cairo this way they give you reason deliberately crippling the product surely hold guess you right that certainly stinks microsoft marketing techniques don think they deliberately crippled the project the other hand technical achievement for what does considering that rides top dos mean you get gui with reasonable speed with xwindows running top linux something similar you still gonna need fast processor dos death well amen that but wish were damn sight deader for dead product its used awful lot and suspect its going carry twitching for long while yet which isn doing anyone any good except for the people who use dos programs which means about more the business world mike
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters jenk microsoft com jen kilmer writes much deleted for brevity again point was that not all microsofties are here sell readers our products which would conflict with the ads philosophy usenet nor necessarily have access info that others have certainly smacks that remember the poll that you quoted saying that you had seen users being satisfied with dos care recall how unbiased the sample set was that post sure looked like fud and coming from microsoftie well sure seemed like something was not level advocacy good but spreading fud advocate your favorite very unethical especially when you have vested interest the success that also get tired people assuming that microsofties are like members the borg that because their actions seem invite this opinion never seen more defensive people life moreover many their posts seem encourage this too imho seriously speaking shame that techie employees get the heat for actions most which are perpetrated the management and marketing sure that they are very talented etc have not doubts about their abilities just about the ethics their marketing practices divya divya live long and then die slow and horrible death what confucius wanted say
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article uceng edu bferrell moth occ edu brett ferrell writes article may microsoft com jimfr microsoft com jim francis writes know for fact that the only reason many companies wrote apps was because ibm paid them for write app for the paid advance ibm can only pay many people for many apps once that stops does the development software companies don stay business writing apps that won generate revenue the fact that ibm was paying them for allowed them and stay business how many apps are selling ask wordperfect borland lotus how much revenue they are getting from sales and they plan writing more apps you may suprised the answer won would get into microsoft practices but the thread would for every you have interesting point that won dispute now but pray tell you know for fact anything why don you provided some insight into your source you think that will accept for fact maybe would you gave your word even says knows for fact what more you have gain gives his word you think lying right now but mon would appear that you are employed the competition you should expect asked about your sources and just give them front not make the claim brett sherron ferrell email bferrell uceng edu anyway how about this give you word without naming sources that ibm paid companies write applications for satisfied mike
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	problem wallpaper display corrupt for bitmaps have problem with the wallpaper desktop mode for bitmap files bigger than about slightly less sometimes depending the exact dimensions the wallpaper display badly corrupted the rest the desktop fine for wallpaper bitmaps smaller than this have problem have friend who has bitmap which has problems with possible also possible display these bitmaps using cshow mode with problem the video card not fault how can remedy this system ram dos windows oak video card mode using supplied drivers windows has permanent swap file please reply via mail and use the address sig our post software always seems mangle the address the header thanks mazz richard mazzaferri student uni newcastle mazz faceng newcastle edu australia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters much munching and editing get the point brett sherron ferrell writes you have interesting point that won dispute now but pray tell you know for fact anything why don you provided some insight into your source you think that will accept for fact maybe would you gave your word even mike timbol responds says knows for fact what more you have gain gives his word you think lying right now while not think lying also feel hesitant take anybody their word unless they can attribute source for thier claims with all the fud and misinformations and misconceptions and outright lies flying around the advocacy newsgroups not trust any unsubstantiated rumor claim especially from any employees ibm microsoft anyone who seems have vested interest divya divya live long and then die slow and horrible death what confucius wanted say
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	workgroups for windows hello want little network for users all users want run windows the most important things want for the network are file sharing mail utility two printers one the computers and fax modem card one the computers all want use each others harddisk idea was buy three computers one and two all three have local harddisk the also has very large harddisk all three also have network card the connected the printers and contains the fax modem card and last but not least workgroups for windows questions this possible what exactly are the possibilities and advantages workgroups for windows will all the computers fast enough behind all three someone working thanks martijn
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wrk installation oddity last night tried reinstall the utilities from the windows resource kit disk the setup program appeared run perfectly normally but when had finished there was program group created now know done this before successfully and creating group myself didn exactly tax but curious what might going can only assume that something left over from the last time had installed getting the way but can figure out what any clues anyone david eastwood sybase inc emeryville eastwood sybase com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	bit rgb working with bit rgb bmp files and need comvert these and bit images how convert bit images and bit rgb images thanks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how can change the font and size for the system the mode the font sizes window menu help window are very small can change the font and font size for these windows computer the video card ati could some experts please email the answer grzheng vax concondia thanks advance guo rong zhehg concordia univ montreal canada
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	driver for card dear netters friend have brought card with ram there any new driver for the card available ftp cites what the newest version she very interest have driver for with hicolor and true color such driver come with the card mok mok mail hkuxa hku dept chem university hong kong
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	can talk windows for workgroups like get system running talking network pcs running windows for workgroups acting server would wonderful but client access would enough can run wfw net utilities dos box there way actually get talk wfw will lanman clients talk wfw dazed and confused tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo ont stick your index fingers into both corners your mouth now pull that how the corrado makes you feel car january
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	can talk windows for workgroups tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes can run wfw net utilities dos box there way actually get talk wfw will lanman clients talk wfw following own article found that several people say that lan server clients can talk wfw this then also true for lan manager don lan server and lan manager share common roots dazed and confused somewhat less now tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo ont stick your index fingers into both corners your mouth now pull that how the corrado makes you feel car january
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mouse newer hello need microsoft mouse driver but newer for going dos window under windows but must freeware have version mike
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	good autoexec bat and config sys for windows may datamark thomas datamark thomas beagle writes there need load emm qemm anything else many windows pcs only useful you are still stuck with running msdos based applications that need lots low memory free otherwise you just need load himem sys and let windows straight the extended memory that what thought that why never used emm exe before kirk membry our age the age industry rutgers viamar kmembry alexander rodchenko
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters bjgrier bnr brian grier writes this has gone too long people get life you haven converted anyone your way thinking yet you probably will not convert anyone just let this subject die quiet though painfull death this keeps start believing the self righteousness should capital offense you have kill off half the net maybe that isn such bad idea pete gontier technology gurgle netcom com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	remapping procomm windows one can only remap special command keys procomm seems would like remap other keys too especially altgr and such combinations anybody know plain dirty way this cause most people settle for remapping function keys but don see why there should limitation yours mattias
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	teacher for windows are searching for one two instructors for tutorials advanced windows programming under anyone has attended course that was very good would really appreciate recommendations please email directly paller fedunix org don get see these newsgroups often enough thanks advance for any help alan paller tutorials director
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	where find diamond speedstar drivers cica indiana edu drivers the current version
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	there version unix editor for windoews pete holsberg pjh mccc edu wrote subject line says all looked and looked but came empty handed are you pervert you are pervert not cua but has powerful set commands one for all has separate clipboard and not only one ofor all kind data like windows does the only problem know the commands the keyboard shortcut quite fast with the keyboard and usually use all fingers digit when use editor not want leave the keyboard and use the mouse every time need special function the menu use the arrow keys that are away from the usual position hands the keyboard situation very powerful and searching editor for windows bye sorry for the bad english
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	creating batch file from windows sasswb sasswb unx sas com scott bass writes for windows there alternative the archane fairly useless dos batch programming language for ibm introduced the rexx language alternative bat surely windows should the same thing right lieu the above there any way escape the bat file and continue single command across multiple lines have application which exits the system and submits batch file the batch file created the fly from site specific code stored within the application currently designed the line length for the stored code and the output file bat file characters which not enough for all the options that must specified particular command would help tremendously didn have redesign code kludge around the lack true batch shell programming language rest deleted followup post let add that not really windows windows user please excuse ignorance however developer sas institute and one component the application that support the ability submit sas batch job from within interactive sas session the user site can enter their site specific batch profile into dataset within our product specifying the pathname the sas executable specifying site specific sas options etc run time certain variables are resolved and the resolved file written external ascii file then exit the operating system and run the job asynchronously returning the interactive session soon the job submitted the batch job then runs concurrently with the interactive session currently designed the internal dataset has record length characters but run the batch job the command reinvoke sas batch mode requires more than characters til this has not been problem since every job control shell language til mvs cms vms unix had way escape the and enter single command across multiple lines via their rexx language which standard with the gist all this since this application for end users not within company have try develop this process using native since first posting learned that there are several third party companies that provide alternative script languages for windows windows and sure company that licenses our product would use that alternative script language they had but can develop under the assumption that they have anything other than what comes with saw another post this list the subject was something like available for windows which someone said that make awk and ksh was available with microsoft toolkit what that product separate product part windows ksh would what need could count all sites one last question heard that has remote processing capabilities could shove this batch job off server machine and have run there these are native commands rather than network specific commands this would also help improve this process you can comment these commands would appreciate thanks again for the help scott bass sas institute inc integrated systems sas campus drive cary sasswb unx sas com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	deriving from class object with owl trying define own class derived from the object class that may insert them into hashtable class provided the container class library have defined all the pure virtual functions object but still get error when attempt allocate hashentry object cannot create instance abstract class hashentry has anyone derived from class object before what have left out here are the virtual functions that defined from object virtual classtype isa const return hashentryclass virtual pchar nameof const return hashentry virtual hashvaluetype hashvalue const return hashvalue hwindow note hwindow defined hashentry virtual int isequal const object far obj const return this hashentry obj virtual void printon rostream const hwindow void far hwindow bowden wise computer science dept rensselaer polytechnic inst troy internet wiseb rpi edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	questions about dos external join command setting dos unix box ide and scsi drive and was wondering about the use the dos join command like the way sets things since won have stick with the crap that dos enforces like how would mimic mount points unix filesystems have heard that there were problems with using least under older versions dos please tell leopard hyperion com don work for hyperion just live here steeven vawter telephone svawter raynet com work unix sys admin
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	deriving from class object with owl solved problem still not understand why happens ths way perhaps some you gurus can explain this all for some reason when define the following functins the class definition the file the compiler thinks some pure virtual functions are not defined when placed these two separate source file and compiled them the problem went away any ideas what happen are the functions that are defined the class construct all inline this the problem virtual int isequal const object far obj const return this hashentry obj virtual void printon rostream const hwindow void far hwindow bowden wise computer science dept rensselaer polytechnic inst troy internet wiseb rpi edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	deltapoints animated desktop hiyas all upon getting animated desktop for windows gift from boyfriend couldn wait install had gotten advertisement for and put aside with list wants after installing the software didn load part the software would load even though the install went seemingly well called deltapoint with the problem and after asking twenty million different questions about system concluded that had one the systems that the software was incompatible with course they willing give back what waste time and energy the folks their support line although nice are extremely ignorant regarding the workings windows after experience with the installation the learned some the function windows dll files before sending back desktop animator decided some fooling around with the different versions dll files had had versions cpalette dll one dated and the other dated and smaller the smaller version was the one supplied with desktop animator moved the bigger older version cpalette dll directory outside path for some reason had the older cpalette dll windows directory and the newer cpallette windows system directory when did this the animator editor loaded and did other the applications the package the main application still didn load does anyone have any ideas why this would occur any further suggestions for trouble shooting darla portal darla shell portal com darla cup portal com aol kuby aol com darlaiam aol com wix darla genie kuby
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	strange messages when starting windows recently acquired gateway machine when starting windows three copyright statements flash the screen right after the logo disappears and before programmanager takes over this does not happen any other our machines and wondering whether this feature whether this related several problems are having with the machine the system gateway machine the messages that appear are copyright western digital corporation all rights reserved copyright congruent corporation all rights reserved copyright microsoft corporation all rights reserved the autoexec bat file looks like this echo off prompt set mouse msmouse msmouse mouse path dos windows apps system winapps public set temp windows temp winpkt ipx netx login login win the config sys file looks like this device windows himem sys dos high umb device windows emm exe noems stacks files buffers shell dos command com does anyone know what going any help would much appreciated department urban and regional planning mail varkki uiuc edu university illinois urbana champaign tel
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article timbolc netcom com timbol netcom com mike timbol writes anyway how about this give you word without naming sources that ibm paid companies write applications for satisfied mike doesn the same subsidize app development seem remember someone rpi who received entire expensive run machine develop for free and that just the small fry ted
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	deskjet try using laser printer copier paper works quite well and cheaper than hpspecial paper thomas smith youngstown state university chemistry dept yfn ysu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article sundaram msuinfo sundaram egr msu edu wrote jenk microsoft com jen kilmer writes much deleted for brevity again point was that not all microsofties are here sell readers our products which would conflict with the ads philosophy usenet nor necessarily have access info that others have certainly smacks that remember the poll that you quoted saying that you had seen users being satisfied with dos care recall how unbiased the sample set was that post sure looked like fud and coming from microsoftie well sure seemed like something was not level came from reseller survey advocacy good but spreading fud advocate your favorite very unethical especially when you have vested interest the success that don recall any fud here maybe example also get tired people assuming that microsofties are like members the borg that because their actions seem invite this opinion never seen more defensive people life moreover many their posts seem encourage this too imho for the most part this newsgroup attack oriented microsoft has been attacked anything ranging from the quality our products the intelligence our people the integrity our business etc anyone would get defensive when being baselessly attacked are human beings well you should expect response when claim that employee might feel unwarranted leveled seriously speaking shame that techie employees get the heat for actions most which are perpetrated the management and marketing sure that they are very talented etc have not doubts about their abilities just about the ethics their marketing practices divya divya live long and then die slow and horrible death what confucius wanted say
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	displaying stream output window using owl and want display the output from stream popup window there way perhaps redirect cout window alternatively set separate stream that supports output and able display the stream output tedit control anyone ever done something like this bowden wise computer science dept rensselaer polytechnic inst troy internet wiseb rpi edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article dnp news claremont edu tlilley jarthur claremont edu ted writes article timbolc netcom com timbol netcom com mike timbol writes anyway how about this give you word without naming sources that ibm paid companies write applications for satisfied not really query what you mean paid are you implying that helped offset development costs paid for the entire cost producing the product mean they paid the companies that developed the applications give you million dollars you port application suppose the company question could use the million dollars for whatever they want would you like post figures for well suppose ted rather not first all don have exact figures and don want disclose how know this however will say that jim francis from microsoft just posted figure million payment from ibm borland and that somewhere the range that heard mike
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article sundaram msuinfo sundaram egr msu edu divya sundaram writes jenk microsoft com jen kilmer writes much deleted for brevity again point was that not all microsofties are here sell readers our products which would conflict with the ads philosophy usenet nor necessarily have access info that others have certainly smacks that remember the poll that you quoted saying that you had seen users being satisfied with dos was and actually another msdos team member posted note that people not the msdos team would not necessarily know about that care recall how unbiased the sample set was when heard those numbers wondered how they got them having worked product support and knowing that the typical support caller has very little positive say about the product figured wasn from there wandered over the marketing folks and asked and was told was from survey registered users and posted that the net when people asked where the figure came from that post sure looked like fud and coming from microsoftie well sure seemed like something was not level hmm figured chuck posted the numbers why not include where they came from also find interesting that postitive info fear uncertainty doubt advocacy good but spreading fud advocate your favorite very unethical especially when you have vested interest the success that think you got confused with someone else don pretend that msdos provides what all people need that other oses including unix don provide useful and necessary features also don push people use msdos even posted comp msdos misc that suggest waiting before installing new esp you have trouble support always overloaded during release unless the sales are total bomb also get tired people assuming that microsofties are like members the borg that because their actions seem invite this opinion never seen more defensive people life ain saying some don get defensive sometimes you really think msdos gets any more respect within microsoft than outside just mean all aren cut out the same dough with the same cookie cutter don all think alike yeah chuckst and have some inside info msdos doesn mean that everyone else does seriously speaking shame that techie employees get the heat for actions most which are perpetrated the management and marketing sure that they are very talented etc have not doubts about their abilities just about the ethics their marketing practices jen include stdisclaimer jenk microsoft com msdos testing
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article may microsoft com kenk microsoft com ken kiesow writes article sundaram msuinfo sundaram egr msu edu wrote certainly smacks that remember the poll that you quoted saying that you had seen users being satisfied with dos care recall how unbiased the sample set was that post sure looked like fud and coming from microsoftie well sure seemed like something was not level came from reseller survey had posted that came from survey registered users double checked with friendly neighborhood marketing type and found there were actually two surveys one randomly selected resellers one randomly selected users from the upgrade registered user database both surveys showed positive rating jen include stdisclaimer jenk microsoft com msdos testing
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	hot key for screen saver there hot key for the windows screen saver utility not there easy way create one the reason that need one that dad company anal retentive about leaving computer while the information can accessed the employees are not allowed walk away from the computer until the screen saver kicks that terribly secure also the system manager won let any software added another program such lock zip from cica different screen saver out thanks for any and all help chris putnam still blue devils lover heart euphonium baritone star
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters previous article jenk microsoft com jen kilmer wrote had posted that came from survey registered users double checked with friendly neighborhood marketing type and found there were actually two surveys one randomly selected resellers one randomly selected users from the upgrade registered user database both surveys showed positive rating jen include stdisclaimer jenk microsoft com msdos testing which translates not satisfied don think the awkward recursive deletion that bugging people certainly isn the nice windows interfaces for new dos accessories cpav defrager undelete far noticed doublespace crashes frankly the fairly high rates doublespace crashes heard surprises figured that since the presumably aware doublespace less likely crash unlike stacker which fools the but gullible anyway dos aware doublespace isn anyway good job dos and dos good for new users just beware the doublespace rob rmohns vax clarku edu rob mohns annoy rush limbaugh think for yourself
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help hello all understanding that all true type fonts windows are loaded prior starting windows this makes getting into windows quite slow you have hundreds them first off correct this thinking secondly that the case can you get windows ignore them boot and maybe make something like pif file load them only when you enter the applications that need fonts any ideas chris origin chris doelle fidonet org
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters for the most part this newsgroup attack oriented microsoft has been attacked anything ranging from the quality our products the intelligence our people the integrity our business etc anyone would get defensive when being baselessly attacked are human beings well you should expect response when claim that employee might feel unwarranted leveled ignore the attacks and look the sales numbers and the stock price you need some gratification just keep doing the great job you have done the past thx dave
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	suggestions for winforwg com redirection needed help trying find software that will allow com port redirection under windows for workgroups can anyone out there make suggestion reccommend something would really hate have write some driver for the serial port that would support the network but that next step thanks advance bkv
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mouse systems driver for mouse control dos window does anyone know there such animal have mouse systems trackball and would like driver for this device that would allow use the mouse within dos window the same way microsoft mouse driver works thanks chris chris shenefiel who does not represent his company any way shape form this forum nor his opinions comments represent the opinions his company nor his opinions comments even merit consideration any kind
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how prevent ctl alt del from windows would like prevent our windows users from using ctl alt del from within windows know there must way could anyone point the right direction thanks advance mike glynn mike glynn business gatech edu mike glynn stolen sig follows hot rodder someone who completely internet prism gatech edu baffled people who are not into cars
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters mike dahmus mike schleppo bocaraton ibm com wrote yes lot what has common with was written you guys however many the things that made much more successful win workplace shell than previous versions were ibm work win ibm work you make laugh writing couple thousands lines code make windows compatible with your dpmi implementation does not make the rest windows ibm work serge
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters bferrell cicada occ edu brett ferrell writes article may microsoft com jenk microsoft com jen kilm writes found there were actually two surveys one randomly selected resellers one randomly selected users from the upgrade registered user database both surveys showed positive rating jen power and associates did the survey would like anonymous ftp site pick only sucker believes released survey results about product assume that the results the survey whatever they are are honest the results indicated extreme dissatisfaction with the product going tell stop buying dos because sux sure would not fair say that the relatively few people who have decided purchase would inclined like just those who love most the people who but them know more less what expect and are not disappointed mean nice know that the people who bought are happy and important for know and don dispute the accuracy just would hate see people extrapolate from that population that dos the next computer revolution well these statistics are shut people and add some microscopic weight arguments just said you have seen what automakers who going believe chrysler they tell random chrysler conducted survey theory about certain people that they are convinced that point maintained long enough true after all what the focus this company information money and information technology for some expedient toward these ends why did bill gates drop out college was because couldn afford the time was because the wsj says couldn wait use what knew out and make money bill gate answer this question would highly interesting await can stomach bill declaring himself visionary and using every available opportunity build the cult around himself and then having sell dos and windoze their main stays kenton cmu edu fixes broken windows
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters mfischer ucsd edu mike fischer writes you missing the main point capitalism the first place competition breeds excellence yes where commodities are concerned imagining that capitalist theorists had software mind when they wrote their grand treatises the main point capitalism non productive pete gontier technology gurgle netcom com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	disk image question hello recently noticed there directory named diskimage disk didn notice before and wonder while installing application image the disk was created win automatically created backup its files couldn find any documentation the diskimage utility having image the disk taking lot disk space does anybody know this just something the people who installed win did backup mechanism thanks anibal anibal mayorga wenark mayorga cis udel edu newark
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	upgrading windows like appeal the net wizards for bit advice first general description the machine follows motherboard utron mhz opti chipset meg memory cache soon hope drop chip into fahrenheit video meg proaudio spectrum sound board primary disk connor caching ide controller secondary disk conner slave same controller tertiary disk fujitsu meg superstore esdi controller planned future disks include scsi and rom pas scsi port tape drive colorado jumbo the floppy controller future tape drive may dat the scsi interface other hardware includes modem fax serial ports and teletext board ugly dos software drives the latter applications used include normal windows stuff excel word quicken and turbo pascal windows but the important stuff audio work environment which includes turtle beach wave for windows mcs stereo and other misc stuff for dinking around with audio files also use stacker the primary drive newwave for wife use and she won let get rid and product called infinite disk from chili pepper software for hierarchical storage management seldom used offline files plan upgrade when becomes released product was stongly tempted become beta user early but don have time mess around with the hassles beta software expect buy tear off the shrink wrap and use without hassle know unrealistic but can hope can after all have work the advice want concerns the state regarding device drivers and hardware specific stuff general how smoothly can expect the upgrade can expect support for all stuff still need scramble around downloading drivers pas orchid colorado from some bbs etc what steps should take ensure the installation goes smoothly note that want nuke dos totally from the system allergic command lines plan run pure system also will communicate with the workgroups lan what about stacker currently have stacker the first disk drive without stacker and the infinite disk product will have great difficulty fitting everything have the system cramped now realize stacker will incompatible with but will there version will support compression dos know infinite disk will incompatible with but will they offer does anybody else comparable product for and what cost perhaps need ask chili pepper that question can live without have but rather not will run dos apps the teletext board mainly without dos the system what need keep around any feedback advice including forget with good reasons much appreciated only significant reason for moving need better multitasking environment than windows among other reasons wave locks the machine for hours and hours doing dsp processing large audio files and want better lan support than now have internet access etc maybe there are better solutions than and would appreciate hearing about them what status these days pls respond email and there interest summarize for the net thanks nathan gregory psilink com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how prevent ctl alt del from windows article hydra gatech edu prism gatech edu glynn mike writes would like prevent our windows users from using ctl alt del from within windows know there must way could anyone point the right direction thanks advance mike glynn are you sure you want that win app locks for some reason ctrl alt del may the only way kill the app and get back windows granted doesn work all that often but has come handy occasion consider pretty carefully before disabled that keystroke just thought you like talk for hours just ahead now the spin doctors dominic drohan electronic data systems eds email drohand cad gmeds com note the views and opinions expressed herein are mine and not reflect those eds
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article sundaram msuinfo sundaram egr msu edu divya sundaram writes jenk microsoft com jen kilmer writes much deleted for brevity again point was that not all microsofties are here sell readers our products which would conflict with the ads philosophy usenet nor necessarily have access info that others have certainly smacks that remember the poll that you quoted saying that you had seen users being satisfied with dos care recall how unbiased the sample set was that post sure looked like fud and coming from microsoftie well sure seemed like something was not level recall jen said right front how the sample set was derived where the fud advocacy good but spreading fud advocate your favorite very unethical especially when you have vested interest the success that does this mean can flame you ever see you doing face the advocacy groups are for the kind things that you preaching against this why they were created the first place filter out all the crap from the newsgroups that might contain real information phil nothing have posted here any way shape form official microsoft policy opinion and should not represented such when quoted here any other forum philipla microsoft com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	why mouse jumpy mouse original post subject why mouse jumpy mouse have microsoft serial mouse and using mouse com was using think but switched see was any better vertical motion nice and smooth but horizontal motion bad sometimes can click something because mouse jumps around can moving the mouse the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for bit then jump the right then move smoothly for bit then jump again maybe this time the left about inch this crazy have never had much trouble with mouse before anyone have any solutions aha think found the problem and isn dirt another guy here was using different kind mouse and was using video driver the default vga for windows has localbus card like and when loaded the video driver windows for him his mouse became jumpy too seems like the driver there any newer one than version that would solve this problem really bad have use the keyboard instead sometimes the zip cica version which the same version that came with card sean eckton computer support representative college fine arts and communications hfac brigham young university provo hfac csr byu edu ecktons ucs byu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	good autoexec bat and config sys for windows article acsu buffalo edu kan mongwa mongwa acsu buffalo edu writes article acsu buffalo edu kan mongwa mongwa acsu buffalo edu writes not load smartdrv sys you are using stacker this applies for windows replied why you mean just use smartdrv exe autoexec bat roger you answered quoting from windows setup txt under the section for using stacker for best performance not use smartdrive cache the compressed drive you only need cache the uncompressed drive check out for yourself think important clear your first reply you gave the impression that you should not use smartdrive with stacker you are correct caching the compressed drive however understand you can cache the uncompressed drive thus you have compressed your disk you will have and probably drive under stacker being the compressed disk which just large file and being the uncompressed disk you should only attempt stack fact with win and smartdrv exe seems smart enough automatically default stacking your and drives roger
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	why does window restart computer files buffers device windows himem sys device windows smartdrv exe double buffer stacks and also autoexec bat vshield windows smartdrv exe rem mouseware setup path dos windows fax mouse set temp windows temp mouse ser rem dos share have you seen this problem before please help out thanks hadi
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how make rle file told that can replace the colorful windows logo that appears windows invokes with graphic choosing the challange that the image must rle format got gif pic jpg tif etc everything but rle what the best route converting these things what program should download and from where has anybody else done this and you have the steps available thanks mail ivory epi syr com ivory tower com would prefered
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	microcal origin working model new version uploaded cica recently uploaded cica the current version the working model microcal origin scientific and technical graphics and data analysis package for windows the working model only and puts promo message hardcopies but largely identical the full version saving origin files disabled but you can save ascii data sets produced with origin also says has expiration date sept try you may like currently pub win uploads origin zip include std disclaimer tom carter carter photon cem msu edu michigan state university carter msucem bitnet chemistry department
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	upgrading windows article psilink com nathan gregory psilink com says like appeal the net wizards for bit advice this sounds like good question the hardware specific him but general please respond him via news and not mail there probably are alot people wanting read the replies including myself mike packard aplcomm jhuapl edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes ignore the attacks and look the sales numbers and the stock price you need some gratification just keep doing the great job you have done the past thx dave this the part that usually gets while set make money there usually are other things considered and debated that the purpose life you only willing look the stock price and sales numbers for gratification usually you end with japanese whoever that competitive owing your business short sighted imo this very irresponsible narrow minded and selfish henceforth ignoring the attack not the right approach matter fact just happen believe the willingness debate and readjust the greatest assets this society sales number and stock price the short term result not the cause
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	test help question there newsgroup for would like know there seperate newgroup for discussion test quality assurance issues not what newsgroup would the appropriate one use does compuserve microsoft themselves have bbs people can call for help such thanks please email response djw wang com helmet rules what doc djw wang com have plan now and clue
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	eps clip art sale less than mailorder price have three libraries all which cost over two thousand dollars mail order they are all genuine high quality eps vector graphics not just some scans with silly eps wrapper they are totem graphics color eps library about color eps images this costs thousand bucks mailorder rate this clip art high quality much better than dynamic graphics clip art sotmc clip art etc opinion but rate both the library and the library higher totem art all color whereas most the other are the best all color library out there opinion graphics library haven counted how many images but you can purchase the library floppies give you idea the size this costs about hundred bucks mailorder rate this clip art very high quality but only graphics library very popular all the mac mags this costs about hundred bucks mailorder rate this clip art very high quality got some awards one the major mac mags forgot which some the images are color but most are for what worth all three the are saved multiple file formats they are readable mac and additionally totem will mount native next also although the next could just easily mount either the mac filesystems personally tested the all three machines owned all three machines although sold next few months ago also opinion the and libraries are the best the business and seen lots also totem opinion the best all color library around although like color art better want for everything can ship certified check well visa charge you pay visa ship pre paid the continental ship buyer pays freight and fee reason for selling longer have dtp business please respond via email telephone rarely check these news groups nevin email npratt glacier sim com voice
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	multiple printers through print manager article lance lance lancea actrix gen lance lancea actrix gen lance andrewes writes how does print manager deal with multiple printers planning print two printers from application one will real printer and the other fax program will print manager just deal with the jobs one time will feed both printers once please research carefully just because fax modem behaves like printer local machine doesn guarantee functionality when local machine has fax software printing remotely installed fax card tried this with workgroups and the fax software didn like all could have been winfax peculiarisms but don think lot special hardware interaction takes place internally case fax manager program merely intercepts the print job and spools own directory not print manager spool directory software appears the job was printed print manager plays part the handling the actual process pardon incorrectly assumed this what you were truely network aware fax modem will most likely required lot weird setup and tinkering good luck
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	diamond stealth article charm magnus acs ohio state edu vromanel magnus acs ohio state edu vincent romanelli writes recently purchased diamond stealth isa graphics accelerator card based upon positive review steve gibson infoworld although fast find its windows drivers extremely buggy despite implementing all the diamond technical support suggestions does anyone else have any experience with this card any feedback appreciated have had lot problems with belive have the latest drivers for there are some occasions when fire windows works great you ever find newer drivers would appreciate pointer there location paul
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	monitors for windows alwin hoogerdijk alwin zen tudelft wrote julio botelho hlbbs uucp julio botelho writes does anyone know whether not possible have monitors working with microsoft windows have taxan multi vision and nec this may work when using vga and hercules card one system but using two vga cards one system will never work believe that two may used tandem one system this the one exception the vga mono dual monitor combo that have heard about has anybody done this jim james mcnamara member technical staff tasc walkers brook drive reading
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	vbrun dll marion humboldt kent edu lou marion writes can someone point the direction this file thanks lou marion dept geography kent state university marion humboldt kent edu sure sorry this not rec humor try cica pub win get index see where all opinions expressed are own because nobody else wants them jls antares larc nasa gov jon sweet
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	vbrun dll can someone point the direction this file thanks should come with visual basic new version vbrun dll thx dave
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	adding icons progman exe florian piekert floppy link escape wrote out there there anybody who can write how add icons the iconlist which build into progman exe grateful for every clue thanx and have nice day one way use program called iconmaster shareware and you can get mail and post you matthew simpkin kingston university primitive race you too kingston computer science shall asimilated
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	solution multi setups standalone easy peter goudswaard goudswaa fraser sfu wrote setup deleted finally order run your specific version windows you must simply change the path include winmastr and your specific configuration path winwife you could get fancy and use batch files environment variables menuing system this other stuff delete you happen running the new msdos you could use multi setup provide menu with menu choice for each person using the machine power select your name the menu will use your personal sections config sys and autoexec bat thus setting the path then running your windows copy ron temp intel views are own
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters this the part that usually gets while set make money there usually are other things considered and debated that the purpose life like not stock prices and sales particular product are measures success they can measures short term long term success think case they are good measure their long term success the original post mentioned how seems this group that there are large number people attacking and not willing accept anything positive about was trying make point that the attacks are over emphasized and look the sales products they definitely tell different story also think large number the attackers debaters you call them are highly technical look around the real world people don want grep and auck and they just want push the buttons and get their job done reasonably priced piece hardware that does not need computer smart guy load configure etc etc like not and the multitudes business applications that exist run under windows does this and does well are running loaded with complete suite mostly windows applications administrative business function novell network running all software off the server does the job quite well and had over again would pick windows again again repeat keep doing what you are doing you are doing great job flame thx dave
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	bit access have gateway does anyone know csn can duse bit access
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	floorplan layout program article chemical watstar uwaterloo gmills chemical watstar uwaterloo phil trodwell writes desperately seeking preferably shareware program assist the architectural layout house floorplan does something like this exist other than basic cad programs please mail don always get the news before expires thanks advance phil trodwell the best seen visio runs under windows not shareware however gary williamson aka wwilliam polaris orl mmc com orlando florida
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	head head win and after hearing endless debate read name calling over which better dos and windows and finally having enought resourses play with couple different operating systems have decided put the two products head head test many fellow newsposters have suggested have however desire whatsoever use version which wont really what says run windows apps will not run windows apps enhansed mode something that most larger windows apps require but which supposed beta test supposed have heard that beta available via ftp and was wondering anyone knew where obtain copy would appreciate any information would like once and for all establish for myself which the best for needs robbie shererrg sfasu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	odd mouse behavior one coworkers having very odd problem his mouse works fine dos applications you load them from the prompt under windows the mouse pointer present but does not move even you load dos app under windows the mouse doesn work the computer zeos diamond speedstar vga running dos and windows mouse driver microsoft tried switching the mouse from com com tried different mouse reinstalled mouse drv and can get the blamed thing work the only difference between his system and mine where the mouse works perfectly that has expansion card with additional parallel and serial port could that cause the problem thanks advance for any help carl fink carlf panix com fink genie you can laugh yourself then you can bet that everyone else doing johnston
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	hot key for screen saver well renaming screensavers scr exe and running them has been pposted haven tried changing win ini but should have same effect shows the setup dialog box butdoesn enable the saver mickey
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	questions about dos external join command article srg spud hyperion com the author writes setting dos unix box ide and scsi drive and was wondering about the use the dos join command like the way sets things since won have stick with the crap that dos enforces like how would mimic mount points unix filesystems have heard that there were problems with using least under older versions dos please tell have been using the join command for many years now mostly with good success duplicating unix style file mounts you will hear lots people cursing join because they confuse with the dos append command truely gnarly hack but don believe them you also will hear people saying that microsoft recommends that you not use join but microsoft windows workgroups resource toolkit the following appears join dos utility works fine with windows for workgroups you not change the state the joined drives during windows for workgroups session this includes adding removing joined drives from within windows for workgroups recommend that you not use join when running windows setup windows for workgroups within this caveat join appears valid under windows however have found couple applications that don deal well with filesystems that have been mounted using join particular the worst offender word for windows gets very confused when you edit and then try save file joined drive wants create the saved file nnnnn tmp the current dir then delete the old file and rename the nnnnn tmp file the doc file unfortunately wfw usually writes the nnnnn tmp file some idiotic place other than the current directory often the root dir the joined filesystem but not always then after deleting the original doc file can find the nnnnn tmp file rename unless you search your disk systems the document gone have also found subtle problems using the mks toolkit from dos box when joined filesystems are present used join temp with meg ramdisk but mks sometimes gets confused when doing the temp dir and misses some files the temp dir this difficult reproduce but goes away totally when join not used think this windows problem rather than mks since works under raw dos would suggest that you can use join but aware that may not robust you would like wouldn real great mount network drives under the main file tree rather than having all those darned drive letters unfortunately join won let you there was talk the net about simple patch let join work network drives but don remember the source too bad the join command not better implemented since would avoid using all those stupid drive letters realize that messdos was meant for casual even ignorant users mounting all the drives one file tree might confusing but looks like going carry this over into windows another meant for casual even igorant users not with all old family system baggage maybe needs recovery group they can get with life jerome jerry schneider domain jls atg com aspen technology group uucp uunet csn atglab jls box collins voice
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	playing midi music ati stereo sound card running windows enhanced mode the sound card have the ati stereo sound card which claims adlib and soundblaster compatibility using windows mediaplayer can play the midi files that came with sound card however can play any the midi files that belong the winjammer midi editor that ftp from cica also can play any midi files generate with muzika also from cica when try play the files dialog box pops saying that the music may not play right and has checkbox asking wish disable this message the future this normal have something set wrong would really like able write music muzika and have computer play also ftp the game dare dream for windows from cica and its music won play either get the same dialog box the midi mappers that have are ati ext midi ati opl midi and vanilla have tried using all three any help suggestions shoulders cry etc would appreciated very much john john punshon punshon usask
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	hot key for switching the program manager win one may assign hot keys for the program items within the program manager how about the program manager itself there one already there some way assign one regards ake ake knutsson email knut tts lth dept communication systems uunet tts lth knut lund institute technology sweden fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article may klaava helsinki jliukkon klaava helsinki juha matti liukkonen writes let pose question how many dos users are out there who have access the net but would probably find this feature useful too your suggestion implies that microsoft relying the shareware products fill the gaps dos did misunderstand your statement shareware available from the net magazines distributors clubs friends and bulletin boards don think people have any problems getting hold fill gaps dos there need for many people dos provides more services than need just run windows top btw windows must operating system provides disk operating system that dos can access nfs thomas beagle thomas datamark work technical writer thomas cavebbs welly gen home wellington long ears make good handles
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters lots stuff deleted because felt like this bashing has definitely lost all its humor value think most the people posting are forgetting that most users products not even know about internet and unix that very unfriendly place where bizzare abreviations replace the rather comfortable abreviations they know and the abreviations have subtle differences between the different vendors while users tend customize any windowing setup they can not much with their command line most the computer users the world product symbolize quality has made their life easier and more productive and them that quality they not care about what innovative things has done other than make their life with computer one heck lot easier you may know better than most computer users this world but that will not change their perception face until unix come with decent gui that available all variations unix just will not catch with the mainstream computer users here the net are not mainstream computer users brian disclaimer the opinions expressed are mine not those bnr brian user developer wanted computer play games bell northern research buy amiga however have research triangle park real work please get lost
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winfax files ascii format zhao may sparta nmsu edu zhao nmsu edu zhao writes currently are using winfax software receive send fax our pcs works pretty well the problem that all received files are bit map format which take lots space have been told there some programs that can pattern recognition the raster characters fax files and translate them into ascii code then store the file ascii format would you like tell whether not there such software package such translation there one where can find any such software package public domain what version winfax you have the newest version has ocr optical character recognition built what this means that can take fax letter and convert into ascii that one can edit the document typing however found that the ocr that comes packaged with winfax does not work well omnipage professional also delrina software once again winfax ver has what you are looking for good luck regards zizi
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows communication proagrams article lee seas ucla edu victorf wright seas ucla edu victor friedman writes can anybody tell what exactly windows does the com ports why can run single communication program under windows have procomm quicklink commo neither them respond modem commands after the connection has finally been established although still able manage vick victorf seas ucla edu this one the trickiest problems win personally run telix for dos under windows just fine and been waiting for the win version froever but have admit the exception the rule have tried installing various dos comm progs friends machines most them big problems some the stuff you have lookout for always run the prog thru pif never calling its exe the pif always toggle lock application memory actually this something points out the readme wri file and especially critical for downloading under ctrl panel enh and check for all your com ports alway warn will help debugging this thing and healthier check where are running the mouse from com port check the com port addresses from your bios setup and from ctrl panel ports setup advanced these might help still have problems get and buy procomm win hope helps somehow costas malamas georgia institute technology oit oit doesn pay enough share their opinions internet ccastco prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	head head win and article may ccsvax sfasu edu shererrg ccsvax sfasu edu writes after hearing endless debate read name calling over which better dos and windows and finally having enought resourses play with couple different operating systems have decided put the two products head head test many fellow newsposters have suggested have however desire whatsoever use version which wont really what says run windows apps will not run windows apps enhansed mode something that most larger windows apps require but which supposed beta test supposed have heard that beta available via ftp and was wondering anyone knew where obtain copy would appreciate any information would like once and for all establish for myself which the best for needs don think the question will run windows apps now more important question will subsequent versions continue run apps from subsequent windows versions the future can keep will future run windows apps ole very complex and the sign things come after this fall believe ibm longer has any rights view microsoft code after that the only way maintain some sort compatibility reverse engineer would you want reverse engineer ole application john grant jagrant emr emr airborne geophysics geological survey canada ottawa
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article igc feenix metronet com jack feenix metronet com jack hudler writes still after the impact all the ito ibm all that left its employee base are the deadbeats suspect see about quarter boy are you going look silly couple weeks brett sherron ferrell email bferrell uceng edu cincy catch the cats college engineering you can
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	microsoft bbs number can anyone tell what microsoft bbs number tried the one that given the dos upgrade manual but that number never answered the call thanks please email
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	solution multi setups standalone easy rhudson gomez intel com ron hudson writes peter goudswaard goudswaa fraser sfu wrote setup deleted finally order run your specific version windows you must simply change the path include winmastr and your specific configuration path winwife you could get fancy and use batch files environment variables menuing system this other stuff delete you happen running the new msdos you could use multi setup provide menu with menu choice for each person using the machine power select your name the menu will use your personal sections config sys and autoexec bat thus setting the path then running your windows copy ron excellent suggestion ron and further comment dos you decide install windows standalone configuration completely more than directory your hard drive and use dos jump specific copy for each user you could saving yourself many megs disk space you use the setup and technique peter goudswaard goudswaa sfu preferred pgoudswa cln etc pgoudswa cue there gift like the present goudswaard observation
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	card problems posted message here some time ago asking why mouse was jumpy well think know why and doesn have anything with the mouse seems the video driver here why think that few weeks ago helped guy install the driver for his video card for windows had been using the normal windows default vga driver don have the same kind mouse mine microsoft serial and his off brand serial mouse his mouse worked fine until installed the driver his system then his mouse became really jumpy too there anything can need high resolution since display lots stuff screen ami pro pegasus mail for windows office sorry nondisclosure and alot more noticed there are drivers ftp cica but they are the same version that already have and they are help already tried sean eckton computer support representative college fine arts and communications hfac brigham young university provo hfac csr byu edu ecktons ucs byu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	hot key for screen saver article may seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes well renaming screensavers scr exe and running them has been pposted haven tried changing win ini but should have same effect shows the setup dialog box butdoesn enable the saver mickey start the renamed saver vid the commandline option frank
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article may klaava helsinki jliukkon klaava helsinki juha matti liukkonen writes let pose question how many dos users are out there who have access the net but would probably find this feature useful too your suggestion implies that microsoft relying the shareware products fill the gaps dos did misunderstand your statement called the free enterprize system suggests that those who wish enhance dos sell give away microsoft can everything everyone period
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article uceng edu bferrell cicada occ edu brett ferrell writes article igc feenix metronet com jack feenix metronet com jack hudler writes still after the impact all the ito ibm all that left its employee base are the deadbeats suspect see about quarter boy are you going look silly couple weeks perhaps
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	head head win and article may ccsvax sfasu edu shererrg ccsvax sfasu edu writes after hearing endless debate read name calling over which better dos and windows and finally having enought resourses play with couple different operating systems have decided put the two products head head test many fellow newsposters have suggested have however desire whatsoever use version which wont really what says run windows apps will not run windows apps enhansed mode something that most larger windows apps require but which supposed beta test supposed have heard that beta available via ftp and was wondering anyone knew where obtain copy would appreciate any information would like once and for all establish for myself which the best for needs robbie shererrg sfasu edu you wait until may the you will able buy the new since will released comdex that day will run windows apps and windows enh mode you can wait then you can ftp months old beta version from ftp nmsu edu but this version probably lot slower than the final product when you your test please have mind that single tasking system will always faster doing one task the real power lies the multitasking and can really measured stopwatch happy benchmarking hans the whales the atlantic and the people the faroe islands have coexisted perfect harmony for the last years matter what any urban navel contamplator without any real relation the coherence the nature says
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	head head win and article may emr emr jagrant emr emr john grant writes don think the question will run windows apps now more important question will subsequent versions continue run apps from subsequent windows versions the future john grant jagrant emr emr airborne geophysics geological survey canada ottawa but the most important question will there any apps don have load windows the future and maybe the question the future will will windows run apps now regards hans the whales the atlantic and the people the faroe islands have coexisted perfect harmony for the last years matter what any urban navel contamplator without any real relation the coherence the nature says
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	head head win and really think you are comparing apples and oranges nobody disputes that has more big features the question does individual need the power the sales windows answer that question the next question even did want run and had this big monster machine run there diverse set applications run that allow productviely work your local computer store answer this one think the comparison you need doing this where the new battle lines will drawn windows has won the single user war the next one will the client server war and the entries are unix and netware granted these will eventually scaled down attractive the single user and that will probably phase the war who wins only the marketplace will tell but sure fun watching and arguing about tho thx dave
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	memory does anyone know how absolute memory locations windows hardware that memory mapped very high addresses and above please reply email thanks david
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	data segments and memory model usage hello phjm you wrote firstly does windows enhanced mode anything special with dlls that have been compiled using the large memory model are being told that even enhanced mode windows will load dlls into real memory below and page lock second question relates static data inside dlls there any way all get multiple instances the static data segment dgroup but you can allocate real static data within code segments when you need more dynamic memory you can allocate data the global heap you can forget most what was written about memory management under you have paged virtual memory you can lock every block without hampering the memory manager you can use far pointer everytime without always lock unlocking the memory block besides dll are mostly just disguised exe that happen called another task karl karl geitz hauptstr salzgitter kwgeitz link escape tel fax cis bix geitzkwg crosspoint
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article may samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes also think large number the attackers debaters you call them are highly technical look around the real world people don want grep and auck and they just want push the buttons and get their you mean grep unix case dependent and awk where did you get auck from mark
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	demonstration creation program wanted article martijn lemmens writes looking for program toolkit with which possible create demonstrations very fast with demonstration mean collection screens the one that looking the demonstration should able make choices pressing buttons change screens hypertext each screen will contain question text bitmap and few answers buttons should possible play music and show animations film heard animator pro and visual basic but don know what these can autodesk animator good tool the one like show partner you want could give copy you did lot advertising with lets you create both graphics any resolution and text frames run all film you can make choices and include music guess that just what you need you really interested email vick victor friedman victorf seas ucla edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mac disks windows article uupcb hal com scott lynn hal com scott lynn writes well alot graphic design work and remaining loyal dos windows instead macs college isn though and can only scan images macintosh does anyone know program that can read mac disks the apple file exchange the nac that writes dos disks probably leaves visibly older during every session want the transfer windows instead macsee zip ftp cica indiana edu supposed read and write mac disks never tried though good luck callison whale usm edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	better than your there was challenge supporters haven wasted enough bandwidth this silly discussion already please flames let sanity prevail richard maclennan
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mac disks windows macsee zip ftp cica indiana edu supposed read and write mac disks never tried though good luck just tried but can say that works cause doesn read disks only reads there program that does read disks please let know
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article news rich bnr bjgrier bnr brian grier writes think most the people posting are forgetting that most users products not even know about internet and unix that very unfriendly place where bizzare abreviations replace the rather comfortable abreviations they know and the abreviations have subtle differences between the different vendors while users tend customize any windowing setup they can not much with their command line you can customize command line interface where have you been can change the prompt can make aliases someone like who used say can type dos machine and still get directory listing and under unix don like the command line interface throw out and get different one csh bash ksh etc most the computer users the world product symbolize quality has made their life easier and more productive and them that quality they not care about what innovative things has done other than make their life with computer one heck lot easier you may know better than most computer users this world but that will not change their perception this true face until unix come with decent gui that available all variations unix just will not catch with the mainstream computer users here the net are not mainstream computer users decent gui for all variations unix lessee what about motif the stuff from mit twm comes mind those are pretty standard heck xwindows program runs like likes all the end user has really know how manipulate the actual windows with the mouse and since gui graphical and bit easier figure out something the windows people have been pressing down our throats for some time now the thing fear that there will gap between the normal users running windows all flavors and the other power users running unix and other more advanced oses least right now dos still pretty much king can bring copy latest whiz bang programming demo over friends house and since both run dos can enjoy too agrier gompers gompers edu tfinn crash cts com preferred
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	creating batch file from windows sasswb sasswb unx sas com scott bass writes saw another post this list the subject was something like available for windows which someone said that make awk and ksh was available with microsoft toolkit what that product separate product part windows ksh would what need could count all sites imagine that was the mks toolkit from mortice kern systems another third party add and good one too nick langmaid nick brimbank apana org melbourne australia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	need sdk well ddk the microsoft windows device driver kit ddk documentation blurb states that the user must separately acquire the microsoft windows software development kit sdk which contains the windows tools build the drivers are using borland with application frameworks this necessary also have copy the microsoft press programmer reference library books which normally comes with the sdk and microsoft macro assembler why the sdk neccessary for development virtual device drivers steven murray posted behalf brian davies
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article feenix metronet com jack feenix metronet com jack hudler writes article twalls ncc demon twalls ncc demon tim walls writes but don want have run blasted windows every time want delete tree absolutely ludicrous load hog like that just delete some files would like requiring crane change the tyre car then why don you download som the public domain utilitys the exactly what you want shut why should have this sort thing should included how about the millions people who don have access libraries over networks just because people can work around doesn mean that something shouldn done remedy the situation mark
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	stop message received running windows application menu running windows mhz with five megs memory the motherboard came with one meg and added the four megs this past weekend they were simms had installed the application menu dos command park till today parked the disk from the application menu without any problem when attempting park the heads today received the following message stop this application has violated system integrity due invalid general protection fault and will terminated what does this message mean thanks david trolio detrolio andromeda rutgers edu the united states can have increased revenue without punishing penalizing those who have obtained personal and economic achievements
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	problem with winqvt net and dos have been using winqvt net under win dos for quite sometime without any problem recently installed dos and cannot run winqvt net any more keep getting packet received for invalid port reset sent messages the console window can get more than telnet window and can use ftp any suggestions would greatly appreciated thanks george kontoravdis condor ccwf utexas edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	anyone heard deltree brandon wise bwise nyx edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters long bashing typography csympc scs leeds conmy writes unix case dependent yes unix case dependent pete gontier technology gurgle netcom com microsoft windows like putting lipstick chicken
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	hot key for screen saver louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes well renaming screensavers scr exe and running them has been pposted haven tried changing win ini but should have same effect shows the setup dialog box butdoesn enable the saver mickey try exe for save screen for config defaults the question not tree falls the forest and one sees hears did fall but rather how many koalas can that one tree take out tim cpsg com tim fox software pty ltd acn cato street east hawthorn fax victoria australia acsnet tim cpsg com the question not tree falls the forest and one sees
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mac disks windows article efv binkley mcgill gel binkley mcgill gilles khouzam writes macsee zip ftp cica indiana edu supposed read and write mac disks never tried though good luck just tried but can say that works cause doesn read disks only reads there program that does read disks please let know not sure that this possible due the way the mac writes the disk think the way the sectors are set are different enough that can read this hardware problem which software cannot correct hope this helps and correct wrong
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article may gps leeds csympc scs leeds conmy writes article feenix metronet com jack feenix metronet com jack hudler writes article twalls ncc demon twalls ncc demon tim walls writes but don want have run blasted windows every time want delete tree absolutely ludicrous load hog like that just delete some files would like requiring crane change the tyre car then why don you download som the public domain utilitys the exactly what you want shut why should have this sort thing should included how about the millions people who don have access libraries over networks just because people can work around doesn mean that something shouldn done remedy the situation these are perfectly valid points and agree glad are starting remedy this situation with dos and will get better future releases you need aware some history however the mid late point view was that was going take over the world and dos would phased out such resources for dos and windows for that matter development were mostly redirected the theory was keep just enough resources dos support people until they started using utilities and such for dos fell the wayside then windows hit the market flopped least seems doing little better but its future still cloudy and people either stayed with their dos and apps moved windows about that point time made its decision drop for dos windows the short term and windows the long term dos much improved over dos and was the first result refocussing dos and windows version takes things somewhat further and suspect future versions will offer even more terms real features work and have real clue about what coworkers over dosland are doing but know that there are heck lot more them than there were few years ago dave course these are opinions you want opinions person
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	tables and hplj printer after setting very large pages table word for windows asked word print laserjet worked fine first after much editing the table contents but not structure output requests now kick the into manual feed mode for the document containing the table other documents without tables print correctly where should look and what should change get the document with the long table use the paper drawer rather than kick into manual feed mode believe tried all the obvious printer manager changes well replacing the hppcl files with archived versions thanks for any and all help peter peter palij internet pbp columbia edu columbia university graduate school business uris hall new york
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	tiff file viewer needed hello need file viewer for bit tiff images run under windows matters alternatively package run server top windows would very well unfortunately the budget for this limited whatever end using has public domain very inexpensive thanks advance for any help john chapman sfu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	tiff file viewer needed article may sfu chapman sfu john chapman writes hello need file viewer for bit tiff images run under windows matters alternatively package run server top windows would very well unfortunately the budget for this limited whatever end using has public domain very inexpensive thanks advance for any help john chapman sfu paintshop pro for windows fantastic product can handle tiff gif bmp pcx and many other formats displaying them and converting between them there shareware version the program assume available the windows areas the standard anonymous ftp locations try ftp cica indiana edu log ftp use your username password and look for program called psp exe something like that have the registered version and the only major difference can detect that the unregistered version pops message when you start the program asking you please register once again fantastic software bits huge images everything brian brian kasper aka prisoner hovercraft full eels the aerospace corporation internet kasper aerospace aero org
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mac disks windows agf agate berkeley edu miyamoto ucsee berkeley edu carleton miyamoto writes article efv binkley mcgill gel binkley mcgill gilles khouzam writes macsee zip ftp cica indiana edu supposed read and write mac disks never tried though good luck just tried but can say that works cause doesn read disks only reads there program that does read disks please let know not sure that this possible due the way the mac writes the disk think the way the sectors are set are different enough that can read this hardware problem which software cannot correct hope this helps and correct wrong you right you cannot read write mac apple disk apple disk without extra hardware however mac disks can read and written drive with software only this should probably added every and mac faq file sure gets asked enough
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	chameleon nfs card got compatible ethernet card and just received copy chameleon nfs unfortunately not compatible with the only what the latest version number for chameleon nfs did soemone tackle this problem thanks for help popineau mail popineau ese metz popineau loria voice mail surface mail ecole superieure electricite rue edouard belin metz cedex france
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters mike schleppo bocaraton ibm com mike dahmus writes may microsoft com jimfr microsoft com jim francis writes note have been working for for the past years have been developer for the past technically superior windows considering that makes more money per copy sold than ibm and wrote most differences between and had about half the memory requirements was quicker even half the memory was much more stable and one more thing ibm did themselves yes lot what has common with was written you guys however many the things that made much more successful win workplace shell than previous versions were ibm work wrote may technically accurate but really red herring the bits that are selling the product weren written you don forget seamless win apps couldn viz wlo but ibm managed right tom hatton hatton cgl ucsf edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters win ibm work you make laugh writing couple thousands lines code make windows compatible with your dpmi implementation does not make the rest windows ibm work don think has anything brag about when comes following dpmi but then consistency the hobgoblin etc suppose tom hatton hatton cgl ucsf edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	hot key for switching the program manager from article may lth knut tts lth ake knutsson win one may assign hot keys for the program items within the program manager how about the program manager itself there one already there some way assign one put progman with the hotkey your startup group should
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters yes lot what has common with was written you guys however many the things that made much more successful win workplace shell than previous versions were ibm work yes certainly was ibm that wrote the windows code
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help with scan can somebody help out this just installed the version mcafree anti virus program and when tried scan the entire hard disk got the message sorry can open xxxx for couple files including the wscan exe this didn happen before previous version nor appear friend machine thankx
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows exit problem hello have problem with window program sometimes when save settings program manager the system corrupt one more grp files and progman exe can open next start thanks for any answer chrobert
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	old irish gaelic truetype font synopsis replies irish gaelic truetype font wanted synopsis wrote can anyone tell where can find windows truetype font that will give the characters used writing irish gaelic the old style for example this font the letter would look something like with horizontal bar sitting the top and the letter would look something like with horizontal bar sitting the top many thanks those who responded question unfortunately have had luck actually getting such font and lot people interested geting one and have decided create own truetype font fitting that description this font based that used the issue dineen dictionary and typical that found irish books from the early part the century this may take some time limited spare time but make available anyone who interested when ready the responses received are summerised below kevin donnelly caoimhin smo mentioned that michael everson everson irlearn ucd had developed some clo gaelach fonts for the macintosh and may able advise contacted michael and told that has three fonts available for the macintosh and that will eventually port them the but that will charging about for each one pbryant ukelele gcr com mentioned that uses two font that have nice irish gaelic look them these are durrow and american uncial normal don know where you can get these but don think that they have the effects looking for finally rhiannon netcom com rhia mentioned that the meath font included the casady greene fluent laser fonts package very much like what was describing faxed casady greene for info but got reply that post these newsgroups when make font available colum twomey
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	diamond windows conflict hello have some problems with diamond stealth local bus graphic card when try start windows system stop and display free files handles cannot load command system halted perhaps bios setup problem but not used ami bios setup somebody can explain how setup shadow video rom others shadow rom and also how config the two advenced setup for best utilisation graphic card thanks for any answer robert
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	best shareware rograms know that there list the best shareware and public domain programs for windows the cica ftp site but unfortunately year old the list author made sound like the list was going updated every month still being updated does anyone else compile similar list also are there any individual suggestions what the best shareware public domain programs are interested good software just about every category please try and include the ftp site and exact file name possible your post thanks sam siockman leland stanford edu will good david broza
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	anyone heard deltree the new command with dos that allows you erase your directory and all the files without first erasing the individual files dana wells yes another male dana wilfrid laurier waterloo urban geographers well mach wlu plan better
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wanted hypertext alike for win fact looking for possibility connect different peaces information like the windows help system and don want program such system myself the necessary effort and afford should small possible thanx advance thomas
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mac disks windows article efv binkley mcgill gel binkley mcgill gilles khouzam writes macsee zip ftp cica indiana edu supposed read and write mac disks never tried though good luck just tried but can say that works cause doesn read disks only reads there program that does read disks please let know well you can say that don work the inability read mac disks not problem rather hardware limmitation pcs have seen post about program able read non mac disks which comes with watchamacalit memory faling card which you just drop into com port something don remember specifics tho peace mickey
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters brian grier bjgrier bnr wrote most the computer users the world product symbolize quality has made their life easier and more productive and them that quality they not care about what innovative things has done other than make their life with computer one heck lot easier you may know better than most computer users this world but that will not change their perception none this changes the fact that msw objectively inferior its competition have begun learn life that the masses never choose the best option available them they choose the one which they have been conditioned think best glad not one them kurt bollacker duke university medical center kdb sunbar duke edu durham
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article may microsoft com cliffga microsoft com clifford garrett writes yes lot what has common with was written you guys however many the things that made much more successful win workplace shell than previous versions were ibm work yes certainly was ibm that wrote the windows code isn this the point better windows than windoze brett sherron ferrell email bferrell uceng edu cincy catch the cats college engineering you can
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	word for windows problems trying use the equation editor word for windows get couple error messages along the lines can find font extra for default printer some characters not displayed printed try installing equation editor again reinstall new printer similar for the font fences know have these fonts system but are unable use them have tried both these solutions avail anyone has had similar problems and has found way fix this could they let know urgently required thanks jason cleeve cleeve ieee org comp sci hons elect eng trobe university australia email cleeve lucifer latrobe edu jason cleeve cleeve ieee org comp sci hons elect eng trobe university australia email cleeve lucifer latrobe edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mac disks windows article uupcb hal com scott lynn hal com scott lynn writes well alot graphic design work and remaining loyal dos windows instead macs college isn though and can only scan images macintosh does anyone know program that can read mac disks the apple file exchange the nac that writes dos disks probably leaves visibly older during every session want the transfer windows instead would appreciate any info want windows program but will gleefully settle for dos program called mac ette allows you read mac high density disks dos machine you can get the program from simtel not sure the directory location jim powlesland internet powlesla acs ucalgary academic computing services voice university calgary message calgary alberta canada fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article news duke edu kdb sunbar duke edu kurt bollacker writes none this changes the fact that msw objectively inferior its competition you mean that msw objectively inferior some respects which trivially true that objectively inferior all respecets which trivially false you mean something else what criteria have you chosen for your objective assesment are you sure that these criteria are themselves objective have begun learn life that the masses never choose the best option available them they choose the one which they have been conditioned think best glad not one them comment
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	word for windows problems article may lugb latrobe edu cleeve lucifer latrobe edu jason cleeve writes trying use the equation editor word for windows get couple error messages along the lines can find font extra for default printer some characters not displayed printed try installing equation editor again reinstall new printer similar for the font fences know have these fonts system but are unable use them have tried both these solutions avail anyone has had similar problems and has found way fix this could they let know urgently required thanks back congratulations you just discovered very nasty and very frequently ecountered bug the word setup program once you know what wrong quite easy fix into the fonts dialog under control panel and select the two fonts extra and fences delete them but only delete the list entries not the disk files now select add and add the fonts extra plain and fences plain close the font box close control panel and restart word everything should alright now does anyone know microsoft has fixed this thing yet they have know about now been frequently reported daniel silevitch dmsilev athena mit edu massachusetts institute technology
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	logic backup have been backing hard drive ever since had install everything from scratch after crash learned the hard way didn using windows based backup program actually norton and began wondering about the logic this sure accidentally delete file can get from the archive but what disk crashes again would not able start windows run the backup program note crash mean there was some error message that prevented the machine from booting properly think gave too early but didn have the time patience tools figure out exactly what the problem was hard drive needed cleaning anyway yeah right this whole scenario complicated the fact that using stacker think there are possibilities right disk really crashes would least have install dos and windows get the backup program working wrong there easy way make mirror hard disk that can easily restore state from scratch the polls are open tom ioerger univeristy illinois grad student ioerger uiuc edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters news duke edu kdb sunbar duke edu kurt bollacker writes brian grier bjgrier bnr wrote most the computer users the world product symbolize quality has made their life easier and more productive and them that quality they not care about what innovative things has done other than make their life with computer one heck lot easier you may know better than most computer users this world but that will not change their perception none this changes the fact that msw objectively inferior its competition this indeed true prefer windows certainly much better than microsoft windows dos wolfgang strobl wolfgang strobl gmd gmd gesellschaft fuer mathematik und datenverarbeitung mbh schloss birlinghoven box include sankt augustin germany std disclaimer hpp
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters brian grier bjgrier bnr wrote most the computer users the world product symbolize quality has made their life easier and more productive and them that quality they not care about what innovative things has done other than make their life with computer one heck lot easier you may know better than most computer users this world but that will not change their perception excuse are you one those people who enjoy working win come talk house mate mine and tell him how productive his life when encountered yet another sudden appearence the dos prompt while cutting and pasting win empty win screen without any tasks running esc brings empty list progman has done again leo there klingons the starboard bow leo mekenkamp scrape off jim klikspaanweg leiden the netherlands mekenkamp stpc leidenuniv leo sthp leidenuniv
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	head head win and after this fall believe ibm longer has any rights view microsoft code after that the only way maintain some sort compatibility reverse engineer would you want reverse engineer ole application don they retain windows oem status that gives them source code and since windows headed toward win win slmr the file bank bbs pcboard usr hst nodes rime internet largest clipper file collection the world
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mac disks windows article may seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes article efv binkley mcgill gel binkley mcgill gilles khouzam writes macsee zip ftp cica indiana edu supposed read and write mac disks never tried though good luck just tried but can say that works cause doesn read disks only reads there program that does read disks please let know well you can say that don work the inability read mac disks not problem rather hardware limmitation pcs have seen post about program able read non mac disks which comes with watchamacalit memory faling card which you just drop into com port something don remember specifics tho peace mickey all drives both mac and the disk spins constant rpm mac disk drives the spin rate the disk varied that the tracks pass under the head constant speed slower rotation for the outer tracks and faster rotation for the inner tracks needs special controller hardware make this happen brian casey bnc macsch com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	logic backup the newer versions norton backup for windows least there emergency disk which will allow you restore from tape without reinstalling dos windows understand sort cumbersome use but not nearly much reinstalling everything steven mccluney better remain silent and sam chensun tamu edu thought fool than speak and remove all doubts can hardly speak for myself
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	head head win and article may samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes question the next question even did want run and had this big monster machine run there diverse think you deliberatly overstating the requirements for considering that multi threaded true multitasking and takes the place dos and windows and more actually think the requirements for are very reasoable also think that anyone using windows without megs ram and megs hard drive space beating their head against wall those are also legitimate requirements for fact the requirements for windows and are about equal the natural progress things for government gain ground and for liberty yield thomas jefferson brad kepley kepley photon phys unca edu voice days
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mac disks windows because the technology apple uses with their disks ibm cant read them without special hardware disks work more alike ibm only can read disks andy
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	head head win and waiting for june first roll around when can then get hands solaris unix for the intel chip know that there are many other unix possibilities out there but this includes the wabi windows api binary interface think technology that wil run windows apps straight outta box this flies enhanced mode then here another contender look out for the corporate education market too big and complex for the home front windows mac sys will take those while win wkgrps will fight out for the small mid businesses however once the powerpc becomes available especially laptop notebook form then these will migrate into all markets the ability connect unix machine work and yet still run windows mac apps home going real attractive alot people just predictions mike mike bendtsen msbendts mtu edu elm apt ccli senior technical consultant hancock michigan technological university
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mac disks windows you right you cannot read write mac apple disk apple disk without extra hardware however mac disks can read and written drive with software only this should probably added every and mac faq file sure gets asked enough agree that this should added some sort faq list but have strayed from the original topic our computer environment pretty split between mac and lucky and get have both desk but there are people who have and need share data with the mac users here the mac users have problems because package called dos mounter which automatically lets the mac read dos disks natively for the there equivilant that know both mac ette and macsee have been inconsistant under the dos platform and requires you perform the activity dos program selectively transport the files the question originally posed was there such program that hooks into windows like dll that will interpret the reading mac disk when and allow access through the standard file dialogs quite clear that this would only available for the flopies fiske tfiske qualcomm com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	strange windows problem windows installation has somehow gone awry whenever try run windows now the logo comes but when tries enter windows itself the screen gets totally screwed the wrong graphics mode something completely illegible although functional can still exit dos with alt return combination tried reinstall windows again but you recall halfway through the installation process install takes you into windows and there graphics problem surfaces again cannot complete the installation all this started after trying get game working system but config sys and autoexec bat have been restored what they were before this problem cropped running with diamond stealth vram resinstalled the stealth video drivers again but with luck also using qemm and stacker but windows installed stacked partition and course worked perfectly before any email replies and suggestions would appreciated thanks hutch
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	logic backup article uiuc edu ioerger sophocles uiuc edu thomas ioerger writes think there are possibilities right disk really crashes would least have install dos and windows get the backup program working using the software you using agree with you there what did installed dos windows and cpbackup functionally the same your norton for the purposes this discussion and used the dos backup command just that much restore boot the system diskette and use dos restore read that much then boot windows and restore full backups using cpb norton your case overwriting what just restored that allows keep this skeletal windows essentially unchanged with all customization the real copy done using the party backup utility wrong there easy way make mirror hard disk that can easily restore state from scratch seems possible you can put skeletal versions dos and your backup utility system floppy then you could restore all one martin lodahl systems analyst capacity planning pacific bell malodah pacbell com sacramento usa good for ancient druids runnin nekkid through the wuids drinkin strange fermented fluids good enough for unk
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article strobl gmd strobl gmd wolfgang strobl writes news duke edu kdb sunbar duke edu kurt bollacker writes none this changes the fact that msw objectively inferior its competition this indeed true prefer windows certainly much better than microsoft windows dos please apples apples beta and such cannot accepted competitor win not the market same for for couple weeks wolfgang strobl wolfgang strobl gmd btw cute sig brett sherron ferrell email bferrell uceng edu cincy catch the cats college engineering you can
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	head head win and article may mtu edu msbendts mtu edu michael scott bendtsen writes waiting for june first roll around when can then get hands solaris unix for the intel chip know that there are many other unix possibilities out there but this includes the wabi windows api binary interface think technology that wil run windows apps straight outta box will certainly help able run windows and dos apps but the only way that solaris any other scheme going challenge microsoft they can somehow get the prices for solaris whatever apps down dos competitive level everybody would rather run solaris app solaris system and app system they usually just can afford unix system because the high prices for good unix software the natural progress things for government gain ground and for liberty yield thomas jefferson brad kepley kepley photon phys unca edu voice days
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article mekenkamp stpc leidenuniv mekenkamp stpc leidenuniv leo mekenkamp writes excuse are you one those people who enjoy working win come talk house mate mine and tell him how productive his life when encountered yet another sudden appearence the dos prompt while cutting and pasting win empty win screen without any tasks running esc brings empty list progman has done again sigh don know what your roomate doing but must something wrong are there people who enjoy using windows yes admit given choice between mac and windows choose windows every time start another flame thread iskandar taib the only thing worse than peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters jack feenix metronet com jack hudler writes called the free enterprize system suggests that those who wish enhance dos sell give away microsoft can everything everyone period has been done but the other companies don have the marketing budgets that dos for instance everything that command com should have been but never could under those who use usually find more addictive than crack cocaine but they have rely word mouth for sales seems have worked pretty good far but your corporate weenie manager type usually likes see big glossy magazine that okay marketing isn fundamental human right but they got product that superior the dos command interpreter every way they have lot more proud than does really gave damn they could duplicate buy outright they got the money even use the old ruse sending engineers out help them with compatability issues and absconding with the technology dos mediocre product cheap price backed top notch marketing and vendor agreements the mediocre was excusable the early days when was someone else hack but they had ten years play with interesting thought that most products that aware the last few years allow you access the names the designers and programmers through easter egg screens including windows least have the names buried the files there such thing dos and are they too ashamed have their names there least one fool every married couple
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mac disks windows gel binkley mcgill gilles khouzam writes macsee zip ftp cica indiana edu supposed read and write mac disks never tried though good luck just tried but can say that works cause doesn read disks only reads there program that does read disks please let know the easiest way this you can send the files accross the network this much easier going from mac because you don have worry about losing the resource fork the file often problem when sending binary files from mac
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters may microsoft com cliffga microsoft com clifford garrett writes yes lot what has common with was written you guys however many the things that made much more successful win workplace shell than previous versions were ibm work yes certainly was ibm that wrote the windows code cliff you know the difference between windows and win here helpful hint running windows under only possible real mode dos box course this only possible with windows since windows longer has real mode the ability run standard mode the ability have windows clipboard the ability run seamless and few other things were all added ibm win now everybody who running windows real mode dos box under raise your hand finally everybody who running win under raise your hand get the picture cliff mike dahmus internet miked vnet ibm com vnet mdahmus boca penpm development ibm ipnet mike schleppo bocaraton ibm com ibm personal systems disclaimer not official ibm spokesman
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article strobl gmd strobl gmd wolfgang strobl writes this indeed true prefer windows certainly much better than microsoft windows dos how you like compared mike
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	more info windows help files here the latest relocating your help files server the winhelp function told does search your path relocating windows helpfiles won problem long you include the path where you move them however application has hardcoded the path into their code that when winhelp invoked searches the given path winhelp hwnd amipro for example then winhelp does not search your path and instead looks only that directory where you have installed your software tested this out variety software packages moved all helpfiles the drive and included this the path statement here the results for different software packages norton desktop found helpfiles windows for workgroups found helpfiles windows found helpfiles powerpoint found helpfiles word found helpfiles excel did not find helpfiles strange foxpro for windows found helpfiles lotus amipro did not find helpfiles procomm plus for windows did not find helpfiles guess this better than nothing but would make sense able specify global path for helpfiles anyone has any comments can help anyone left something out please let know lhighley gozer idbsu edu thanks for the help from everyone especially jagrant emr emr more info this topic develops
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article mekenkamp stpc leidenuniv mekenkamp stpc leidenuniv leo mekenkamp writes brian grier bjgrier bnr wrote most the computer users the world product symbolize quality has made their life easier and more productive and them that quality they not care about what innovative things has done other than make their life with computer one heck lot easier you may know better than most computer users this world but that will not change their perception excuse are you one those people who enjoy working win come talk house mate mine and tell him how productive his life when encountered yet another sudden appearence the dos prompt while cutting and pasting win empty win screen without any tasks running esc brings empty list progman has done again leo there klingons the starboard bow leo mekenkamp scrape off jim klikspaanweg leiden the netherlands mekenkamp stpc leidenuniv leo sthp leidenuniv been messin roun progman ini have gessing you been tuning the system that the only way can remember getting blank screen from ctrl esc when one the progman ini parameters was twinked can remember never seen win something like that her own captain tal
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	some info the dos msw meltdown progressing nicely bruce dubbs bdubbs tamu edu wrote another comment least you have ibm consultants trying help never heard microsoft sending customer engineers client organization help solve problems could wrong but they its not common knowledge microsoft has division called microsoft consulting that does what ibm fes field engineers however neither company just and sends consultants client sites both companies charge very high hourly rates for site consulting unless the client has already paid annual service contract barton wright molecular simulations inc voice bwright msi com burlington fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article news duke edu kdb sunbar duke edu kurt bollacker writes agree one ever definitively met challenge only batted around semantics well guess things did turn out expected hmmm gave two examples which matched your objective criteria and your response was some subjective claptrap about them being lame you never did counter the fact that those examples fit your objective criteria one wonders who playing semantic games here rick schaut uucp uunet beaver microsoft richs microsoft doesn speak for and don speak for microsoft
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	panasonic truetype what going have just added panasonic pin dot matrix printer installed the appropriate windows printer driver one specifically for this printer but unable persuade the poxy thing print correctly what appears happening that the truetype fonts don get printed properly experiments show that all graphic images for example line drawing from corel draw print graphicsworkshop for windows happily prints gifs etc notepad and write will print correctly providing the font the text are printer fonts when print truetype fonts some lines appear printed the wrong order change the text font printer font the problem eliminated have tried using printer drivers for printers which the snappy name emulates namely epsom and ibm proprinter and the same problem occurs there some kind soul who can tell just what the hell going would most chuffed david
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	please help amiga user find comfort windows night amiga user day work with windows much more comfortable windows had two things good personal information manager you know calendar address book reminder list etc rolled into one clean interface good file manager microsofts very poor standards how about one that has left and right window and allows file operations between them being able launch programs from the same interface would nice well text reading and graphics viewing those who are familiar with directory opus the amiga know what looking for anyone can steer towards ftp sight with these programs would make transition windows lot easier please reply via email rarely get read this group thanks much why would such jerk know that doesn smoke steve lombardi drugs and doesn cocaine and doesn shoot stlombo acm rpi edu smack and doesn even drink beer why would such ker ween why would such jerk know that doesn smoke steve lombardi drugs and doesn cocaine and doesn shoot stlombo acm rpi edu smack and doesn even drink beer why would
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	old irish gaelic truetype font synopsis replies ctwomey vms eurokom colum twomey comments finally rhiannon netcom com rhia mentioned that the meath font included the casady greene fluent laser fonts package very much like what was describing faxed casady greene for info but got reply casady greene seems notoriously slow about responding heard from others who have contacted them they may not reply via fax but via snail mail give them time contact them again rhia let joy and innocence prevail from the movie toys
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	please help amiga user find comfort windows stlombo eos acm rpi edu steve lombardi writes night amiga user day work with windows much more comfortable windows had two things good personal information manager you know calendar address book reminder list etc rolled into one clean interface lotus organizer quick cheap pretty and has all those features you want good file manager microsofts very poor standards you might look one the shell alternatives provided third parties norton desktop for windows for instance personally like file manager which comes with windows much faster than ndw and the file manager that part windows for workgroups even has decent button bar how about one that has left and right window and allows file operations between them being able launch programs from the same interface would nice well text reading and graphics viewing those who are familiar with directory opus the amiga know what looking for that first you can with file manager but the others you need look ndw tools for windows etc anyone can steer towards ftp sight with these programs would make transition windows lot easier please reply via email rarely get read this group thanks much haven yet seen decent freeware even shareware shell but may just nectar nirvana the absurd the essential concept nectar world std com and the first truth camus
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	experiences with dos have been having trouble posting this article from within tin for over week you get multiple copies apologies here challenge microsoft microsort supporters defend the pathetic state dos upgrade distribution long story but would make good reading for those who are interested knowing the potential pitfalls upgrading dos that have been able notice after only about week playing around with envorinment travelmate winsx ram disk system bios version texas instruments vga bios cirrus logic quadtel advance power manager battery pro texas instruments smart drive cache win dos parameters windows benchmark winbench labs after updgrading dos could not understand why certain things became slow especially after decided try dblspace the process finding out why discovered some interesting things disk performance with double space and smart drive while most things did not appear slow down most the time certain applications appeared run very much slower what was interesting that commands like chkdsk and defrag were running far too slowly consider them useful any standards suspected double space and decided measure its impact system using winbench the real disk winmark for the original system shipped from factory with dos and windowws became when upgraded dos with thus there effective performance degradation more than percent which did not really surprise because knew that compression must cost something specifically for short sequential reads bytes actually improves transfer rates about because cpu being faster than more cpu cycles needed for more than compensated savings cycles however for all other cases particularly large random writes the transfers take three times long while the performance depends the type access random sequential small large transfer units the average based winbench assumptions the disk slows down half its speed the tests alone done real mode see winbench and with smartdrv not say much except that helps put into those subjective statements like there noticable difference performance even that will speed disk access when you have fast cpu and slow disk this explained why some applications ran markedly slower but not why chkdsk and defrag the latter especially too long double space and windows dblspace will not run all from within windows not even you wanted only get information not modify anything for that matter even check its usage try fasthelp dblspace dos box within windows and you will see what mean from the error message you get how narrow minded can programer get wonder yes this information can obtained through the mstools add file manager but this mstools dll does not understand compressed floppy use the dos supplement utility create compressed floppy you dont know how dos defragmenter incompatible with apm defragmentation seemed take too much time even waited patiently till finished and then ran again just confirm this confirmation dblspace def command for the drive should take more than seconds much faster other defragmenters have used but took minutes discovered that moved the mouse defragmentation checking ran faster the figure ticked more rapidly dawned that this had with battery saver advanced power management apm module which slows the clock down when thinks that the cpu idle and obviously thought defragmentation was idle process after disabling the power saver this operation took only seconds microsft programmers think and gateway nomad users are idiots the readme txt file you can find the the following running microsoft backup with and gateway nomad computers avoid conflict between the turbo feature and microsoft backup for windows dos add switch the device command your config sys that loads the battery pro file before you run microsoft backup type setpower the command prompt you checked manual the option you will realise that means disable all power saving features your notebook why would anyone want run driver disabled have found out not only does power management interfere with microsoft backup the readme txt claims but chkdsk and dblspace and who knows what else are crippled the power saver obvious that there not such thing apm specifications there indeed such thing then either microsoft programmers programmers dont know how read these specifications you dont have guess who are the idiots the way you run the advance power management utility power exe dos when you check the status says power management status setting adv max cpu idle time this figure seems the steady state value notebook when running nothing windows with only program manager iconised form does that mean that windows takes cpu all for itself and that have best only left for useful work such overhead justified whether not windows operating system just another user interface dos alone reports idle time looks like windows good example busy waiting type package that like students study the classical negative example our times microsoft programmers not know batch programming like structure startup script and thus have the equivalent addpath statements like this set path dos set path etc bin path bin set path etc windows path windows set path path bcc bin set path path mouse even though the new dos was installed the same directory the old one dos dos installation program modifes each and every path statement and prepends dos its value result resultant path has many dos the installation program wanted remove the old dos path and add the new dos path clearly has only scan for the path statement containg the old dos directory and replace the new dos path even this should only done the new dos installed directory different from the old one being upgraded instead the microsoft programmer you can call this person one decided meddle every path statement had the autoexec and prepend dos the value wonder microsoft desparate that would not fire programmers who are incapable the thought process started thread this when dos came and the microsoft representative singapore called about this poster fact specifically said his counterparts saw the poster and relayed the information him did not have access internet now that has not changed one bit fact you have path statement with path already not obvious that the this statement should not touched for any reason another example the inability microsoft programmers understand batch programming had the mouse driver invoked set mouse etc mouse set path path mouse loadhigh mouse mouse com guess what memmaker did replaced the last statement with etc mouse mouse com why difficult just replace loadhigh with and its parameters without touching the rest the line not understand dos software quality dos the only operating system know which under normal usage you end creating file that you cannot get rid using the commands that come with deliberately being cryptic about this challenge microsoft use all its programmers catch this bug and publish they dont within week will post how you can create this ghost file surely can pick this bug without even looking for after using particular command only twice sure two dozen microsoft idiot programmers randomly banging their keyboards over week could find that what was told how microsoft tests the quality their products think funny that microsoft has found ways test quality when accepted the industry that quality cannot tested but can only built into the product wonder they cannot provide any form guarantees their products not even decent list bugs that will prevent scores user from destroying their disks beyond repair also you run dblspace def often enough repeatedly when the disk fully defragmented you may get errors that was created the defragmenters got sys file size error and got truncated when did the chkdsk this happend only after five successive defragmentation efforst after the first one supposedly did its job and with new file creation since microsft dont you dare reply this poster the network until you admit that your has bugs and are willing let know what should watch out for have already used jaya jayasooriah cse unsw sign paris hotel box kensington nsw tel fax sports jacket may worn dinner internet jayas vast unsw edu but not trousers jayasooriah cse unsw sign norwegian cocktail lounge box kensington nsw ladies are requested tel fax not have children internet jayas vast unsw edu the bar
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	please help amiga user find comfort windows article ada fitz cornell edu stlombo eos acm rpi edu steve lombardi writes night amiga user day work with windows much more comfortable windows had two things good personal information manager you know calendar address book reminder list etc rolled into one clean interface prefer infoselect myself but strange kind pim good file manager microsofts very poor standards how about one that has left and right window and allows file operations between them being able launch programs from the same interface would nice well text reading and graphics viewing those who are familiar with directory opus the amiga know what looking for well few things might help you like the file manager better get more than one window simply double click drive icon that only gives you one window work with fallacy you can drag files between windows any icon the tree the left side the window and any drive icon this beats your left and right window you can have many open you wish instead just two you can launch any app from within file manager double clicking the executable icon you can launch any application and open document file double clicking the document file icon provided you have associations set correctly this easily done with the menus the browse capability adds lot functionality you name all your text files with txt and point all gif tiff etc files towards paintshop wingif this takes care your requirement for text reading and graphics viewing know someone who prefers using file manager his shell setting all the associations you need the way directory opus half good file manager then must pretty good indeed file manager just needs you understand how some things are done iskandar taib the only thing worse than peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	biobliography program info needed please think somebody posted some info about biobliography program one two months ago don rember the detail what like have one software organize the literature refereing for scientific publications the functions like would able data base managment able print with special formats for different journals any info would appreciated ming wang radiation laboratory university notre dame wang edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	head head win and forgive this stupid but didn see rumor somewhere that apple was working intel platform say like system for chris
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how 
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how can install the printshop deluxe windows with the norton desktop 
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	screen snapshot there way can save snapshot screen file under windows similar the way one can press cmd shift mac please email rather than posting thanks dave fisher fisher lyra hac com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	please help amiga user find comfort windows article ada fitz cornell edu stlombo eos acm rpi edu steve lombardi writes from stlombo eos acm rpi edu steve lombardi subject please help amiga user find comfort windows date may gmt night amiga user day work with windows much more comfortable windows had two things good personal information manager you know calendar address book reminder list etc rolled into one clean interface good file manager microsofts very poor standards how about one that has left and right window and allows file operations between them being able launch programs from the same interface would nice well text reading and graphics viewing those who are familiar with directory opus the amiga know what looking for have written the file manager hfm wich has two windows which compare the files two directorys find out wether there are equal similar files the most important operations copy move delete show the file start progam navigate the directory tree can invoked dragging directory entry with the mouse this very convenient because the selection the file and the operation performed occur one move for bitmap graphic viewing the program vpic can integrated for spreadsheat and database files use the view program from pctools hfm can configured use arbitrary viewers show special data formats does also present archives from pkzip etc simulated subdirectorys this filemanager has somewhat non standart user interface but very convienient use and the prefered file manager several labs our university the drawback this filemanager still dos program and the development windows version has not yet begun use the program package run zip where run tells its windows companion sched exe which windows program should started this way you can start windows program from dosbox the new version released soon includes new command for automating this windows program start ftp archives for the mentioned programs all these archives have several mirror sites simtel oak oakland edu filutl hfm zip gif vpic zip garbo garbo uwasa dirutil hfm zip cica ftp cica indiana edu util run zip andreas helke molekulare genetik universitaet heidelberg germany email genius embnet dkfz heidelberg the header this posting does not contain valid smtp mail address
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	looking for medical cliparts wife physiotherapist and she looking for some cliparts skeleton and male female body currently using windows draw which can import all kind graphic formats therefore anything will please advise the existance any freeware commerical source that can turn since don normally read this newsgroup please responds via mail thanks advance jackson loong feeder networking engineering internet jloong dnbf bram cdx mot com motorola codex canada macintosh ljl email mot com matheson blvd voice mississauga ont fax disclaimer opinions are own not motorola
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ati avi drivers article qfwynh rzvpv andrew cmu edu andrew houghton andrew cmu edu writes noticed ati had posted beta avi drivers for their mach boards compuserve has anyone had the chance tgo try them how well they work very well indeed home bus version the graphics pro can stretch avi window and will continue play back smoothly drops few more frames but most machines even attempting such thing would mean one frame update every seconds isa graphics was able zoom without any perceptible performance penalty the best performance seen far with the possible exception intel indeo board which uses overlay doesn have move the decompressed data over the isa bus any point john munsch
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	font size for dos window 
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winprinter real deal hello netters recenlty aquired enough money purchase laser printer the other day bought the computer shopper mag was looking through printer review section and noticed the winprinter the machine incredibly low priced for all the features has dpi meg ram postscript compatable envelope printing question does anyone have one these know why the price cheap would appricaiate someone would pass their knowledge this subject thanks alot dave donuts are girls best friend
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters get the picture just find humorous that running windows apps for what makes more credible cliff
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters tim glauert thg cam orl wrote article news duke edu kdb teer acpub duke edu kurt bollacker writes tim glauert thg cam orl wrote article news duke edu kdb sunbar duke edu kurt bollacker writes none this changes the fact that msw objectively inferior its competition you mean that msw objectively inferior some respects which trivially true that objectively inferior all respecets which trivially false you mean something else what criteria have you chosen for your objective assesment are you sure that these criteria are themselves objective believe that enough inferior make overall product inferior its competition apple system nextstep unix xwindows pick your favorite flavor other words your opinion that msw inferior its competition that not the same msw being objectively inferior technically inferior the guis that listed have already described why say briefly system easier learn and use there have been independent studies that effect can run msw applications and has more stable multitasking nextstep easier learn use and program more stable multitasking unix easy learn and use more stable multitasking with the prpoer setup all these will exchange data with msw machines well msw machines will amongst themselves interoperability not issue this criterion inferior you have another then perhaps incorrect you pick the glove kurt bollacker duke university medical center kdb sunbar duke edu durham
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winfax files ascii format winfax pro provides you with ocr the ocr from omnipage although not customizable does the job and auto matic you want and much cheaper than the same package omni page professional sold separatly last time check winfax pro was only
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	epson stylus does anyone have any information better first hand experience the new epson bubblejet printer stylus particularly interested hearing how well works under windows presume that special printer driver required supplied standard able print everything that standard postscript laserprinter could many thanks for any replies george george bolt dept psychology univ york
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article tasvi lll winken llnl gov fuess writes for one like windows prior had little use for because early problems since preferred operating system nah windows were operating system would windows motif geoworks desqview the shareware win boss library and that what name text based windowing system written applesoft that ran the old faithful apple note the similarity all the above rely some underlying real imho they are windowing systems and just that some are cooler than others though whay
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	smartdrv and dblspace recent article rcaldrn med miami edu richard calderon writes just received gateway with windows and dos ran few times with apparent problems decided give double space try after compressing the drive with problems decided load windows took minute seconds load after dblspace seconds before dblspace tinkered little with the machine and noticed error message saying smartdrive cannot work with dblspace not unreasonable since the smartdrv packaged with dos version make sure that all your drivers himem emm smartdrv are being executed from the dos directory loss the cache provided smartdrv could your problem not don know what might cause the startup delay testbed for dblspace which has very minimal amount data the disk that don eat too much time install and uninstall dblspace boots about seconds from the starting dos herald the end the autoexec bat execution don have handy system with more realistic volume data time joe morris mitre
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters since started this twist this thread kdb teer acpub duke edu kurt bollacker writes believe that enough inferior make overall product inferior its competition apple system nextstep unix xwindows pick your favorite flavor other words your opinion that msw inferior its competition that not the same msw being objectively inferior technically inferior the guis that listed have already described why say briefly actually you fell into the above because you said believe you had used the rest this post your previous post not think anyone would have agrued with you system easier learn and use there have been independent studies that effect can run msw applications and has more stable multitasking nextstep easier learn use and program more stable multitasking unix easy learn and use more stable multitasking the following three are not the competition for windows imho course system does not currently run intel boxes nextstep rather expensive should competitor windows not unix with the exception all the above will require most users spend very large sum money upgrade applications ones that run under these and basically money speaks louder than anything else you keep saying more stable multitasking what you mean not multi finder gem geoworks operative multi tasking but real honest goodness prioritized pre emptive multi tasking with the prpoer setup all these will exchange data with msw machines well msw machines will amongst themselves interoperability not issue basically this moot since most users have been able share data for quite long time but are still blind know this criterion inferior you have another then perhaps incorrect you pick the glove why pick you stated the reasons behind your opinions stated them very straight forward though over protective manner and aside from earlier comments about who actually competitor think are agreement does tim glauert agree let wait and see disclaimer the opinions expressed are mine not those bnr brian user developer wanted computer play games bell northern research buy amiga however have research triangle park real work please get lost
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article news duke edu kdb sunbar duke edu kurt bollacker writes system easier learn and use there have been independent studies that effect can run msw applications and has more stable multitasking nextstep easier learn use and program more stable multitasking unix easy learn and use more stable multitasking also more customizable can make the computer what want whereas with msw have what microsoft wants how bind control left mousebutton type hello world not that want that but tjl
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	smartdrv and dblspace article rcaldrn epistat rcaldrn med miami edu richard calderon writes just received gateway with windows and dos ran few times with apparent problems decided give double space try after compressing the drive with problems decided load windows took minute seconds load after dblspace seconds before dblspace tinkered little with the machine and noticed error message saying smartdrive cannot work with dblspace the reason for the change from smartdrv exe included with windows smartdrv exe included with dos compatability with dblspace sure you are running smartdrv from your dos directory
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	pctools for windows demo someone has downloaded the pctools demo from compuserve please upload cica other ftp site thanks dean elroy edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	afterdark startrek out memory article may informix com jerry doodles informix com writes have the startrek version afterdark running but nearly always reports space out memory which floats across the top the screen what have not set correctly got ram jerry you right doesn appear working correctly really should say space the last frontier across the top john grant jagrant emr emr airborne geophysics geological survey canada ottawa
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article news duke edu kdb teer acpub duke edu kurt bollacker writes rick schaut richs microsoft com wrote article news duke edu kdb sunbar duke edu kurt bollacker writes agree one ever definitively met challenge only batted around semantics well guess things did turn out expected hmmm gave two examples which matched your objective criteria and your response was some subjective claptrap about them being lame you never did counter the fact that those examples fit your objective criteria repeat what are they you mentioned what you tried present innovative but what new concept was brought market efficient basic basic existed before and efficiency not original either ole what new concept does that bring document oriented computing the mac had that before msw you simply haven made your point the burden proof upon you exact challenge what new computing concept has brought market first nothing more nothing less explain how your examples fit that criterion hmm has anyone computer geeks included ever consider that inovation not limited software hardware true products not boast features that invented but how many products out there other vendors out there are truely innovative their continuing development think what makes special the public thier innovative pricing true the xwindows mac next all have some feature thier gui that are better than but people like can afford them true that apple has lower their pricing the low end models but they are just that low end system better operating system but the machines they operate just are too expensive for tastes unix platform powerful enuf but tell the common user set xdefault still confused what some them things and they either puke faint think about low prices aint innovative come down but for the product offers and the lower cost and powerful hardware that runs compare macs kinda innovative yea guess the fact that the support products and applications they have garnered for mswindows does make them kinda innovative too dixon dly joule elee calpoly edu dly oboe calpoly edu electrical and electronic engineering cal poly slo
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	info menu choice file manager article shenoy vincent iastate edu shenoy iastate edu shiva shenoy writes may trintex uucp charles tinman dev prodigy com charles emmons writes description file manager info menu option edit the winfile ini file there section addons great else add the following two lines the addons section exists then just add the second line addons info filesize dll note that the filesize dll part the windows resource kit you install and you can download from cica will make the appropriate changes itself kartik you quote article remember trim down the essentials anant kartik mithal akm uoregon edu network manager student comp science oregon eugene fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	pctools for windows demo elroy edu burris dean writes someone has downloaded the pctools demo from compuserve please upload cica other ftp site thanks dean elroy edu sorry don have the demo but have the program and have been using for the past few weeks since now have dos well don use many the features pct win but use the pct desktop with drag and drop printing folders folders and multiple desktops the file manager which far superior win pat presidente ppreside cln etc
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	capturing screen shots article acorn wrote trying capture some colour screenshots from windows currently have tried pressing print screen copy the screen the clipboard then paste the clipboard into the windows paint package many thanks for the replies received this couple people suggested how could get the paint package work properly but the end took the advice someone else try paintshop pro from cica indiana edu thanks again philip practice random kindness and senseless acts beauty
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	head head win and article ehs balsam unca edu kepley photon phys unca edu writes article may samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes question the next question even did want run and had this big monster machine run there diverse think you deliberatly overstating the requirements for considering that multi threaded true multitasking and takes the place dos and windows and more actually think the requirements for are very reasoable also think that anyone using windows without megs ram and megs hard drive space beating their head against wall those are also legitimate requirements for fact the requirements for windows and are about equal exquise since when does mankind consider twice equal the natural progress things for government gain ground and for liberty yield thomas jefferson brad kepley kepley photon phys unca edu voice days wim van holder katholieke universiteit leuven tel departement fax dekenstraat leuven mail wimvh liris tew kuleuven belgium fdbaq kuleuven
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	terminal woes have vlb machine with wang fax modem when using the windows terminal application the only way can get see the modem change com then back and change com then works fine have set com the port use don have anything plugged into com and looked over the manual for all worth but what missing the modem jumpered for com irq which understand means can use the second serial port and the modem the same time but not using the second serial port anyway also when using procomm for dos always sees the modem and dials but doesn always connect when the other end answers don know that helps any thanks brian reed bdr cbnewsg att com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ati graphics ultra pro problem have the following problem dell with the ati graphics ultra pro eisa when start windows the first times try run application does not start windows will show the following error message error executing application there not enough memory run the application after the first tries the application want run will start and afterwards there are more problems when change the video driver from mach this problem does not occur suspect the ati drivers tried both the build and build driver does anyone have clue van harten philips research laboratories tel prof holstlaan fax eindhoven email vharten prl philips the netherlands
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	challenge microsoft supporters article news duke edu kdb sunbar duke edu kurt bollacker writes tim glauert thg cam orl wrote other words your opinion that msw inferior its competition that not the same msw being objectively inferior technically inferior the guis that listed now you are starting define your criteria this criterion inferior afraid that you haven actually proved that you have shown that some aspects msw are technically inferior other systems said earlier this all you are trying say then trivially true but some aspects msw are actually technically superior each the other systems resource requirements performace device support printer support gui etc btw love see the studies which show that unix easy learn windows but might even agree that balance msw technically inferior some the competition this still does not prove your point you have another then perhaps incorrect range available applications base cost cost applications cost hardware multi platform support quality the after sales service availability books training materials support for visual and physical handicaps suitability for use mobile computing quality documentation you think that technical excellence the only factor when deciding indeed the primary factor you need think again
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	corrected microcal origin package uploaded cica recently uploaded cica the current version the working model microcal origin scientific and technical graphics and data analysis package for windows the working model only and puts promo message hardcopies but largely identical the full version saving origin files disabled but you can save ascii data sets produced with origin also says has expiration date sept try you may like currently ftp cica indiana edu the directory pub win uploads origin zip the file origin zip unfortunately incomplete sorry bout that include std disclaimer tom carter carter photon cem msu edu michigan state university carter msucem bitnet chemistry department
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	enchaced mode with scsi disk just removed ide drive and reformated two scsi disk use boot disk system that did run windows fine enhanced mode its with meg ram and adaptec with bios enabled system runs fine and runs windows standard mode fine but returns the dos prompt when trying run mode tried emmexclude and sysrombreakpoint what gives thanks advance hal views are own
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	com ports does anyone know what the standard port addresses are for com ports through there standard any sort please mail don read this group very often mark tomlinson mark garden equinox gen
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide cable vacsc vax csun edu wrote just bought new ide hard drive for system with the one already had problem this system only had ide cable for one drive had buy cable with two drive connectors and consequently have switch cables the problem the new hard drive manual refers matching pin the cable with both pin the drive itself and pin the ide card but for the life cannot figure out how tell which way plug the cable align these most ide drives that have dealt with have had pin labeled the printed circuit board this sufficient determine which side which your ide drive does not have label then you can look for polarization notch the receptacle the connector the drive with the pins the receptacle center polarized that has one rectangular notch about wide positioned the center one side then you can identify pin follows look into the pins with the notch the top pin the top right all drives have seen this toward the power connector for which pin pin the controller well you can use the same criteria but look hard for the labelling any pin once you know which end pin are pins the oposite end then you are all set all you need keep the pin end connected the pin end you don even have look the cable itself just trace the pin side the cable through usually the pin the cable identified different color red usually but beware many cable makers are not very careful about this have seen cables with pin being the one marked red course with non polarized connectors this doesn matter you can plug the cable either way and you decide which side pin secondly the cable has like connector two ends and one between them figure one end goes the controler and then the other two into the drives does matter which plug into the master drive and which into the slave any help appreciated thanks doesn matter what gets plugged where but does matter how the drives are jumpered there will amongst other options two jumpers that you should concerned with both drives one jumper will select whether the drive the slave the master the master then second jumper selects whether not slave present you will have consult the docuementation that came with you drives you not have docuementation then just call the manufacturers hotline number fax number they have one this kind information routinely needed people just like yourself they will fax you complete info about the jumpers you don have convenient access fax machine then you can usually get voice help post the specific question this group probably won able help you good luck gordon lang
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what you know about cornell systems the subject says all wondering anyone the net has had any experiences with cornell computer systems california was checking out their computer shopper and they seem have good balance between service price and hardware the question are they reliable mail responses would appreciated thanks adam ubvms buffalo edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dfi handy scanner how talk have dfi handy scanner model plus and little bit software running under dos use like make more extensive use this device particular write driver for unix can anyone give description how talk this device connects the system via own interface card any info would help can too difficult talk thanks brian wallis tusc computer systems pty ltd
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	numbers ethernet cards tigger djohnson moose uvm edu wrote possible through either pin configuration through software programming change the numbers ethernet card thanks advance dave tigger djohnson moose uvm edu tiggers are wonderful things dave johnson think you mean the ethernet numbers the byte ethernet the unique electronic serial number esn assigned each ethernet board existence this physical layer concept the address higher layer protocol the analogy telephone service the address your phone number while the particular wire pair the cable the pole has some unknown you physical identification scheme number but answer your question assuming you indeed meant the ethernet number not supposed possible change the number course the manufacturer can always retro fit board but there could hardly reason ever that your question actually referring the address most definetly changable but strictly software gordon lang
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	themax vga opinions wondering anyone has any opinions about the themax svga card just purchased one due great price boasts million true colors with onboard you know anything about this card please respond via mail this group tends overwhelming times with posts thanks advance john anderson the views expressed are usually nebraska omaha own and occasionally someone omaha nebraska usa other than myself but they are internet flick cwis unomaha edu usually correct
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	video card different address article myzn pue austin ibm com lance hartmann austin ibm com lance hartmann writes article qmrdd umcc umcc umich edu jon umcc umcc umich edu jon zeeff writes like add second based video card system does anyone know company that sells card that can coexist with another one all really need color text one monitor and fast color graphics the other probably just configurable address would for what worth haven confirmed diamond tech rep told that all based video cards use port addresses and this true appears that you cannot use more than one card your system actually there based card the market that supports multiple adapters one system unfortunately bus only they may have isa version now from company called metheus the address and phone number metheus corp ogc science park compton beaverton aware this very high end card capable vram does not come cheap but have personally seen two these boards running dual screen windows lance hartmann lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com yes that percent sign network address all statements comments opinions etc herein reflect those the author and shall not misconstrued those ibm anyone else for that matter mark hall intergraph corporation huntsville mhall habu ingr com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	sale always scsi card have always scsi card for sale manuals software and cables make your best offer this gyro ucsd edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	mitsumi and pro article apr elroy edu elroy edu guillot writes article apr zip eecs umich edu grover emunix emich edu grover thomas writes just poke out the little pins the connector and then replace them the correct slots this reverisible you can unpoke easy you poke yep done this too the trick use tiny screwdriver and push down the latch each pin and then pull out the connector label each one first with tape you don get them confused after you pulled them out compare the pinout tables the mitsumi and soundblaster manuals get the correct orientation arlen martin att attme stcarm
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	old keyboards never die hello almost ashame ask this question really looks like faq but couldn find the answer anyway the original ibm key keyboard opinion still the best keyboard around function keys the right place left place firm click etc there any chance connect one these modern clone understand that the new keyboard has more functionality the typematic repeat rate programmable etc seams that the pins electrical specs the old and the new keyboard are however the same maybe the communication protocol different please answer mail also you can tell that absolutely impossible that case will bring the keyboard the museum obsolete technology thanks duco duco fijma tel university twente fax box internet fijma utwente enschede the netherlands ugly pictures this sig
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi dma and detach article apr julian uwo wlsmith valve heart rri uwo wayne smith writes article richk apr gozer grebyn com richk grebyn com richard krehbiel writes can anyone explain fairly simple terms why get might need scsi controler rather than ide will performance suffer that much for drive don have tape drive rom any help would appreciated when you got multi tasking you want increase performance increasing the amount overlapping you one way with dma bus mastering either these make possible for devices move their data into and out memory without interrupting the cpu the alternative for the cpu move the data there are several scsi interface cards that allow dma and bus mastering how you bus mastering the isa bus ide however defined the standard interface created for the ibm which requires the cpu move all the data bytes with dma talking isa bus here then you can only have dma channel active any one time presumably transferring data from single device even though you can have least devices scsi bus explain how all those devices can dma transfers through single scsi card the isa bus the same time think the scsi card doing the dma transfers not the disks the scsi card can dma transfers containing data from any the scsi devices attached when wants important feature scsi the ability detach device this frees the scsi bus for other devices this typically used multi tasking start transfers several devices while each device seeking the data the bus free for other commands and data transfers when the devices are ready transfer the data they can aquire the bus and send the data ide bus when you start transfer the bus busy until the disk has seeked the data and transfered this typically second lock out for other processes wanting the bus irrespective transfer time also still trying track down copy ibm reference book but from their technical manual page the fdd adapter buffered the bus and uses the system board direct memory access dma for record data transfers expect see something similar for the hdd adapter the lowly low density original fdd card used dma and the hdd controller doesn that makes real sense guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns tel hoskyns guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors close power source this have new monitor which set approximately feet from where the power enters house fuse box this safe for the monitor will can the emf emitted the current eventually affect monitor how and the damage permanent would degaussing fix thanks tom catalino
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	datasave videostreamer few weeks ago saw the german magazine about called videostreamer this interface between parallel port and any video recorder for backing your data videotape the company datasave claims that can store minutes tape costs about usd think question does anybody use this product yes how many bytes really fit minutes tape sounds quite unbelievable however any comments the interface are appreciated please mail your replies directly will sum neccesary thanks advance gerhard gwesp cosy sbg
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	mitsumi and pro article apr elroy edu elroy edu guillot writes article apr zip eecs umich edu grover emunix emich edu grover thomas writes just poke out the little pins the connector and then replace them the correct slots this reverisible you can unpoke easy you poke well tried this method based responses from several people either klutz probable they have changed the connector ended having destroy the connector put heat shrink tubing the individual pins and then plug them into the connector the correct order works great this way this turned out just fine certainly sounded easy based other people experiences but attempts did not too well john john manning opinions expressed are own manning csc enet dec com not represent digital equip
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	considering the orchid vlb seeking comments very serious about the purchase that uses the orchid vlb mother board the system also has the vlb ide and fahrenheit video board haven seen heard any bad comments about this board does anyone out there have any comments good bad about this board considering this board primarily because orchid reputation and long standing the field thanks for any and all comments bob jones
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help promplem with panasonic printer folks have panasonic just inherited with documentation which giving problem that cant resolve the paper out light refuses out starts blink when ever turn the power which beeps does allow line with green light lit simultanously the red paper out light also remains lit but does not blink please not give any references manuals dont have any thanking you all very much advance sincerely dharmesh
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bit dma failure system halted have mhz isa board with kbyte cache and megs ram just bought the new soundblaster and tried install the card the uses bit dma channel could select between channel the first card ever installed that uses bit dma transfer after tested the card the first time the computer crashed and got parity error system halted this happens either from dos also from windows seems that bit dma channels are not working properly they are there because testsb exe recocnize them and tests them until first access well does anybody know solution for this problem special test program for dma problems eliminated the problem temporaly using only bit dma channel but makes the system slow thanks for your help yours markus
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	parity error system halted anyone have any ideas you unfortunately failed mention the error occurs with the parity error checking enabled disabled assume you mean gives you parity error when enabled and not when disabled how high will the count the memory check boot before this error occurs does the system beep all what the pattern beeps the error could occuring cache memory not likely video memory well the simms the fact that you have ami bios not conclusive determining the board manufacturer either boards are made thousands small taiwanese companies among others that buy the name brand chips and put them together with some simm sockets make your board tend doubt your problem with your ide controller also anyway perhaps you answer those questions someone can help you out better mrb boltz vivaldi psu edu mrb psuvm psu edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	can anyone give jumper settings have rll hard drive and have just got another hard drive the controller machine can kind soul please mail tell how get jumper settings for that board really appreciate this thanks advance jerry look signature
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	trident drivers for win fast eddie felson jmarttila finabo abo wrote hello got old trident svga card but lacking suitable drivers for windows the drivers for the series seem incompatible does anyone have idea where get these drivers address for ftp site would nice thanks advance jouni jouni marttila kyl turku finland jmarttila abo jmarttila finabo abovax jmarttila jjmartti utu pgp key available via finger jmarttila abo you can find the drivers wuarchive wustl edu the msdos windows sub directory think the files are called tvgawin zip and tvgawin zip those are the latest drivers available far know tmc tmc spartan brocku
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ati build drivers good hofkin software org bob hofkin writes build causes exceptions when exit windows fact have had this happen all builds after which shipped with gateway system doing something wrong this problem commonly overlooked have never had exceptions with build drivers have scott linn scott hpcvccl com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cpu temperature cpu activity article apr ucc montuno physics lino montuno writes this may very naive question but there any basis for the claim that cpu will get hotter when computationally intensive job running friend claims that there will little difference the temperature idle cpu and cpu running computationally intensive job first depends what idle cpu doing not sure about dos but many multitasking oss have loop like this loop there anything yes goto loop goto loop the cpu not doing any work but still processing instructions will also respond interupts lino montuno guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns tel hoskyns guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	micro solutions backpack not working properly hello all have problem with micro solutions backpack sometimes works sometimes doesnt will either start backup start tape format and about percent get error either saying the tape bad the backup format has aborted for unknown reason turn everything off and wait half hour works fine because the tape backup too warm has anyone had similar experiences thanks kevin
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bbs read the bbs while back thats bbs may started for gateway did bbs start and did would you let know the newsgroup name please send information mail mail address joe west lds loral com thanks joe west
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	amd clones now legal wyman rtsg mot com mark wyman writes poe wharton upenn edu writes friend mine called the phone and told was wathcing cnn and saw report that the ruling prohibiting amd from selling their clones has been thrown out making legal for amd ship the yep this was the news great news for consumers bad news for intel their stock dropped quite chunk with the announcement scott linn scott hpcvccl com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	modems and noisy lines used have lot line noise problems with baud modem what was sudgested was put toriod transformer the line this easily done getting large toroid core from your local electronics shop toroid core ceramic metal donut and wind the telephone line through the center the core and out around the outside five six times this easy and cheap fix that does not have the hassels having use sofware fix hardware problem talk yah later mark mark zander sheridanc
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bios fix for diamond hello world posts heard about all the bugs the dss and the drivers now hear that diamond ships bios replacements some people that fixes lot problems well new drivers can anyone tell how get mine thanks advance phil poe wharton upenn edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide hds volker voecking voecking informatik muenchen wrote hello have problems combining two ide hard disks seagate and quantum lps single hard disk both are working fine but connecting them together controller doesn work questions are has anybody out there ever been succesful using such hard disks together and what jumper settings and bios settting did she use possible that controller the reason for troubles the only thing know about that ide harddisk controller how many harddisks can such controller control case only one thanks advance volker ide drives have jumpers them indicate master slave master then second jumper indicates slave present these must set correctly according each drive manufacturers spec ification the cmos setup almost positively not the problem probably not the controller ide controllers all support exactly two drives maximum check those jumpers gordon lang
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cpu temperature cpu activity article austin ibm com guyd austin ibm com guy dawson writes article apr ucc montuno physics lino montuno writes this may very naive question but there any basis for the claim that cpu will get hotter when computationally intensive job running friend claims that there will little difference the temperature idle cpu and cpu running computationally intensive job first depends what idle cpu doing not sure about dos but many multitasking oss have loop like this loop there anything yes goto loop goto loop the cpu not doing any work but still processing instructions done some asic and digital design but not any cpu design would seem that the fpu not being used most the cache not being accessed the off chip buffers drivers are idle the multiplier isn multiplying the barrel shifters aren shifting microcode isn microcoding etc this means transistors aren switching which means less power dissipated cmos which means less heat from what understand the pentium shuts down those sections the cpu which aren being used order cut down heat power dennis lou but yossarian what everyone thought that way dlou ucsd edu then crazy think any other way backbone ucsd dlou dlou ucsd bitnet steve jobs and steve wozniak went high school
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scsi ide more hard drives article apr news brandeis edu luoma binah brandeis edu writes has anyone successfully put both scsi and ide hard drives the same system would like know well since just bought seagate ide drive and want add computer four year old gateway which currently has seagate scsi drive the scsi controller such that the docs told not specify the cmos setup both hard drive settings are listed not installed and apparently the scsi controller works its wonders wondering this problem also remember how when helped cousin install his second ide drive had define master slave relationship for them need something similar here particularly interested having the scsi the boot drive same here any help would appreciated since intend install this drive asap like know what and what not before start thanks william barnes suranet operations wbarnes sura net voice fax disclaimer don speak for suranet and they don speak for
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	debugging possible hardware problems suspect the external cache but have real evidence for this suggestions about the cause the problem bad memory bad motherboard bad cache suggestions about how debug the problem turn off cache gcc and other big programs seemed crash about the time for gcc gave something like program got fatal signal and when doing anything past the complexity elvis kermit etc got kernel general protection faults least once session disabled cache suggested and bingo linux stable rock hasn given core dump kernel error yet does any one know why the cache would something like this aldy hernandz andrews edu programmers are paid the hour how you suppose the array initialized more programming pearls
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help installing second ide drive bill willis willisw willisw eng clemson edu wrote article darwin sura net wbarnes sura net bill barnes writes recently cousin got second internal ide drive seagate can look the model number important and been trying help him install got vested interest since machine busted and have use his until get mine fixed already has seagate ide again forget the model number but can find out anyway can seem get the bloody thing managed get one the other drive with the other disconnected but not both the same time whenever try the thing hangs during bootup never gets past the system test the ide controller instruction sheet says supports two drives think configured the cmos correctly the power plugged properly even learned about the master slave relationship that two hds are supposed have didn know pcs were into and think configured the jumpers properly the one the master the new one the slave deleted many many thanks advance this practically emergency have two papers this thing for monday help william barnes suranet operations wbarnes sura net voice fax disclaimer don speak for suranet and they don speak for been told our local computer guru that you can this unless you perform low level format your existing hard drive and set your system for two hard drives from the beginning took him his word and have not tried find out any more about because not going back everything just add another hdd anyone knows for sure what the scoop would like know also thanks advance also bill willis not low level format ide drive unless you have the executable for doing supplied the manufacturer these are available from bbs mail but the mail version costs nominal fee addition the master slave jumper ide drive there also another jumper indicate whether slave present get right the cabling not issue long pin goes pin goes pin twisting swapping ide cable sure pin all three components not make assumptions guesses are but assumptions are bad the cable and jumpers are correct and the cmos setup correct then you may have fdisk followed high level format have never personally found this necesary but perhaps there something gone wrong with the data the disks probably not but understand your predicament you will probably throw salt over your shoulders wear funny clothes and spooky sounding chant while dancing around the room someone said might help good luck gordon lang
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	motherboard advice needed does anyone have source for motherboards been calling around the local stores and everyone appears only stocking the motherboards how difficult modify motherboard run mhz simple replacing the system clock with slower part thanks peter
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	can have printers lan mac isis msstate edu mubashir cheema writes trying establish network lan here that could use different printers panasonic kxp for printing receipts and okidata for letters etc all possible this world this fundamental aspect novell business they wouldn where they are they didn live their novell does printing slogan run printers varying types off our novell network sure there are places with hundreds rtfm the capture command printcon pserver and the sections the windows manual which cover network printing you haven bought novell products yet rephrase your question and look for information about how well various competitors printing rich
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cmos checksum error article uaoq ulowell ulowell edu mcook ulowell edu michael cook writes recently have been getting cmos checksum error when first turn computer doesn happen everytime turn nor can predict when going happen have ami bios and all the setting are lost for example the drive types and the password options however the date and time remain correct anyone knows what can causing this please let know most likely reason that your backup battery failing this battery maintains the contents the cmos memory when power turned off and the battery flakey then the contents the cmos will lost and the checksum will wrong along with most other the cmos data try replacing the battery however your doesn use battery but large capacitor power the cmos you should check see you can replace the capacitor with more normal lithium battery this isn possible make sure you leave your for half hour hour each day this will keep the capacitor charged opt for the battery change though also possible but unlikely that rogue problem even virus corrupting the cmos your battery seems okay get virus scanner and check out your system
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway flash bios upgrade article apr utxvms utexas edu dcoleman utxvms utexas edu daniel coleman writes gateway has released new flash bios update for their local bus systems because such nice person uploaded them wuarchive wustl edu look for glb exe the msdos uploads section enjoy have several questions what gain with this new bios how can save copy old bios case want back how install the new bios like enjoy but need answers first thanks bill volz chevron petroleum technology earth model interpretation analysis division box habra phone fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help advice guf psuvm psu edu writes own clone which does all want except run game want buy the game says requires with game tech support says game will run but uses some digitized graphics which would make run really slow card game hoyles classic card games digitized graphics are photos artwork game fictional card players what can speed how this game would run short motherboard upgrade processor accelerator card mimicking can run mhz any advice would greatly appreciated upgrade would probably cost about about coprocessors accelerator cards would cost least that much the most feared merger gsbg uxa cso uiuc edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	question how setup video projector for vga asked design video aid system for teacher show their students how work their way round windows have seen people using video projector set and large size monitor thrir display for presentations told that there are three ways connect video projector composite rgb can anyone explain the different between the three and the likely cost for each them would also like know there are telnet kermit for windows please reply via amil well bulletin internet account sparc ncu edu tim chen
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	diamond stealth help hello have diamond stealth vram card the older version with the dip switches the back have two problems lost the manual have machine with network card and everything works fine until run windows when the network connection dies case important the network card smc arcnet bit compatable card address and ram base address also using irq believe there file the diamond bboard that explains how sort this out but with manual don know the bboard number you can please help with many the following possible send the diamond bbs number mail post the dip switch settings for the card fax them tell what doing wrong can magicly get everything working any help all would much appreciated thanks advance red
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	the ati ultra pro and bit windows drivers work article emx uucp reza magellan utexas edu alireza vali writes there just bought gateway system with meg ati ultra pro video card everything seems work fine except for the windows drivers for bit and and bit modes the fonts and icons start deteriorating after windows startup and within minutes use everything the screen totally unintelligible naturally called gateway tech support inquire about this the technician asked about the drivers and told him was version build told that the and bit drivers for this pure bull had the bit mode and working since the version before bld added the bit option flexpanel try getting the drivers from ftp cica indiana edu wuarchive the ati ultra pro simply not work this true simply amazed how could this the strange thing would have expected see some discussion here unless the subject has made the faq gateway local bus megs ram scsi rom ultrastor local bus scsi controller ati ultra pro local bus with vram dos windows mach drivers version build mine gateway megs ram ide ati gup installed upgrade myself bld drivers cannon lobby com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	soundblaster irq and port settings article shaman tek com andrew frip tek com andrew klossner wrote these lpt com disk controller are call devices there are devices that requires exclusive interrupt ownership disk controller and keyboard there are also devices that does not require exclusive ownership will share interrupt with another device lpt standard isa bus the one that almost all non laptop pcs use two separate interface cards cannot share interrupt this due screwup the bus design for example your soundblaster wants drive interrupt number then must hold certain bus wire all times depending whether not wants interrupt this precludes letting another card assert interrupt number when two more devices isa bus share interrupt because they implemented single card interesting would you care explain then how soundblaster pro card and printer card are sharing irq successfully assure you that they are both set irq and that have problem computer dtk ibm clone paul bartholomew pdb ipl jpl nasa gov
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scsi ide more hard drives article apr news brandeis edu wbarnes sura net bill barnes writes has anyone successfully put both scsi and ide hard drives the same system would like know well since just bought seagate ide drive and want add computer four year old gateway which currently has seagate scsi drive the scsi controller such that the docs told not specify the cmos setup both hard drive settings are listed not installed and apparently the scsi controller works its wonders wondering this problem also remember how when helped cousin install his second ide drive had define master slave relationship for them need something similar here particularly interested having the scsi the boot drive same here any help would appreciated since intend install this drive asap like know what and what not before start thanks have been using both ide mfm and scsi drives for years have ide and scsi one system and the other with ide scsi disk and scsi cdrom currently using always scsi card but also have future domain western digital scsi card and work with adaptic before recall all these cards can support boot and floppy drive however use with other controller ide mfm the boot drive has the ide mfm you can not boot from the scsi you have other controller the system you guys only have drives ide scsi just set the ide your cmos setup make sure you can boot from then set the scsi controller irq dma etc set the scsi drive just plug and play for all the cards seen far only you have more than drives then you need driver for the third drive and you have more question email will try answer good luck william
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	the article usenet ins cwru edu rrn cwru edu robert novitskey writes has anyone out there heard any performance stats the fabled was wondering what performance compared the and pentium would any info would helpful advertisement microtimes bay area mini computer shopper from ency systems fremont has graphic for the performance based mips power meter the raked about the got about and the got about tom tom barrett tdbear engineer tom barrett amd com amd pcd ben white austin don take take hold don leave chance tasmin archer views are own and may not the same the company origin
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	modem windows problems article apr magnus acs ohio state edu nstassen magnus acs ohio state edu nicki stassen lantz writes what weekend replaced motherboard upgraded dos windows and now experience lockups any windows application using the modem dxl cpu amd ami bios card with serial parallel and game ports generic cheapo ide controller two two internal packard bell modem mouse the mouse set com irq via jumper the board and parms the mouse driver the modem set com irq jumpers modem board addition think have disabled the second serial port the card since unused mouse works fine here the deal procomm dos version works fine through the modem procomm for windows cim compuserve for windows and terminal all lockup when try anything with the modem the screen just freezes sound comes from the modem nor any messages the screen getting real frustrated could the second port the card still enabled would this cause problem been through most the software routes beggining believe that maybe this hardware problem anybody been through similar experience anybody have any ideas could try please thanks advance stassen lantz ran into the same problem when upgraded from modem modem any time give the modem reset command atz while windows the computer locks give the atz command dos will work solution was not give the modem the atz command thru windows the procomm install process told the program have hayes compatible modem atz was not included the initialization string works fine called about this they didn have clue what the memory interupt conflict could the lockup accures using any windows comm program that gives the atz command
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	jumbo backup problems have been told several people that sony data cartridges don quite cut the jumbo tape drive lots bad blocks you using sony tape try switching something else like maybe mike
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	plus hardcard owners help there have problem here lost the software drivers and setup programs for hardcard can someone email the files let know plus development were they bought out quantum has bbs phone have hardcard thanks advance eric
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	math pro article innnr lynx unm edu teague mdc com chris teague writes which cpu will give the better performance math intensive programs faster for this you are using dos mag reviewed bunch and and the was faster the review was the last month two thanks advance chris teague guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns tel hoskyns guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway flash bios upgrade article lhdsy lahabra chevron com hwrvo kato lahabra chevron com volz writes article apr utxvms utexas edu dcoleman utxvms utexas edu daniel coleman writes gateway has released new flash bios update for their local bus systems because such nice person uploaded them wuarchive wustl edu look for glb exe the msdos uploads section enjoy have several questions what gain with this new bios how can save copy old bios case want back how install the new bios like enjoy but need answers first fixes some problems with microprose games after leaving iii would vain try find floppy drive this has been fixed don know what other corrections were made comes with image the original case things don work download glb exe format bootable floppy disk and don put config sys autoexec bat run the self extracting archive all the files explode the disk run the file fsh exe should self explanatory from there dan was feeling extraordinarily generous once again uploaded the file ftp cica indiana too daniel matthew coleman internet dcoleman utxvms utexas edu dcoleman ccwf utexas edu the university texas austin decnet utxvms dcoleman electrical computer engineering bitnet dcoleman utxvms bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hardware for image processing are doing research about passive dynamic vision guided vehicle completed the first theoric part have make the effective realization this vehicle need the necessary hardware for image acquisition from videocamera and for their subsequent elaboration tipically edge detection ask for informations about available products the market for this purpose real time frames second hence need frame grabber cards and dsp cards for sun platform are also very interested receiving comments and suggestions from users these cards especially about programming tools furthermore are looking for the same kind informations about digital controlled pan tilt devices thanks advance best regards enrico fedrigo fedro paola dei unipd
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	conflict controller grafic card upgraded old with local bus motherboard two month ago and with bought controller card local bus and grafic card diamond stealth vlb but when try put new grafic card and new controller together system don want boot stop after controller card checking have try change ami bios setup but nothing works just one thing when disable rom bios adress controller card system one more step checking all system and cache memory but nothing more thanks for answer chrobert
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	experience buying from computers planning buy computer and like ads can you tell anything about the company and their computers also anyone has company they would prefer please let know thanks carlisle thacker miami
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dos have clone with dtc esdi controller and toshiba mbyte drive since installing dos when tried install software from disks when mount the second third fourth disks dos doesn recognize that have changed floppies dir see the contents the previous diskette the only way get dos recognize that diskettes have changed label and then not label them buying dos has been colossal mistake dos was stable and worked well with equipment have superstor pro and desqview with qemm manifest etc there aren any features dos that using guess should roll back dos but wary what will happen when besides like fool don have dos bootable disk anymore made the same mistakes caution users not make like sheep joined the crowd flocking dos baaa baaad system administrator phillip culver silicon graphics inc mtn view
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	achieve multi card jumpers needed need the jumper settings for the achieve card usually found affecting video card and forcing the machine into col mode any help the ghoul hath spoken small obscure world somewhere the middle nowhere particular nowhere that that could ever found since protected vast field unprobability which only six men this galaxy have key was raining
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted floppy controller that can handle multiple floppies need duplicate bunch floppy disks and ideally would like able keep floppies busy simultaneously single yes know that services this exist know that standard isa bus floppy controllers can only have one drive active time know that some controllers are available that can handle floppies with serialized access know that microchannel machines can keep more than one floppy active simultaneously but does anyone have controller for isa bus that can simultaneously keep floppies going how about for eisa machine the limitation software limitation can work around that using new used interested orville orville weyrich weyrich computer consulting certified data processor pob scottsdale certified systems professional voice certified computer programmer internet orville weyrich com freedom without responsibility uucp uunet weyrich orville
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ibm switches have old ibm motherboard which has two banks dip switches eight switches per bank need know which switch required install hard disk does anyone have any archived documentation that would help thanks jim jimd cae prds cdx mot com jim duda email ljd email mot com motorola codex jimd cae prds cdx mot com voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	mitsumi and pro article apr zip eecs umich edu grover emunix emich edu grover thomas writes just poke out the little pins the connector and then replace them the correct slots this reverisible you can unpoke easy you poke regards guillot houston texas usa don believe coffee
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	internet servers for university our university wanting buy couple servers provide email students and faculty two servers are being lokked for one provide news service and one mail service from proposed internet connection are there any foreseable problems with this proposed set provided that ihets providing ethernet line from cisco router into our network mhz smc elite eisa nic dual duplexed scsi with parts and labor everything but the hard drives running univel unix for application servers will run mail campus wide novell network access these hopefully there any other aspect should looking which nic use this enough disk space etc any help would greatly appreciated christopher meyers uunet meyers evansville edu university evansville academic computing technician let not and say did
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cryix dlc cpu all netters last post that concerning about the cyrix dlc cpu said the benchmark program comptest stated there bug cyrix cpus this not true and must apologize the author comptest the actual program that gives this report prot virus detection and removal program the report stated there bug the slc but not dlc sorry sorry sorry desmond lut
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ati build drivers good build causes exceptions when exit windows fact have had this happen all builds after which shipped with gateway system doing something wrong this problem commonly overlooked bob hofkin
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	numbers ethernet cards possible through either pin configuration through software programming change the numbers ethernet card thanks advance dave tigger djohnson moose uvm edu tiggers are wonderful things dave johnson
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scsi and ide what the difference stupid question from new ibm user going selling mac and getting gateway what the difference between ide and scsi the comes with western digital ide drive asked how much more for the seagate scsi drive the guy asked why are you going with scsi was lost for answer just said know seagate better company from satisfaction point view are scsi drives faster than ide not buying for another months but this question that has bugged for while tom
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	feature connector vga cards would someone please post email the feature connector pin assignments this sometimes referred the aux video connector some documentation thanks astrachan austlcm sps mot com paul astrachan motorola telecom astrachan austlcm sps mot com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	lost com help have clone and internal modem set com worked fine until upgraded dos and the same time reloaded windows now the system can find com msd says com and three four comm programs say hardware not present some similar error message procomm however finds the modem problem and works fine curiouser and curiouser any hints help thanks mike mwvm mitre org these are opinions only
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	can set com article mtc fnnews fnal gov uchima fncrdh fnal gov mike uchima writes also having problem with com system have gateway system with the ati ultrapro video card identical the system mentioned the original posting except mhz instead for some reason the system refuses recognize com for example configure the board motherboard com ports for com com everything fine configure them for com com com works but com not recoznized the diagnostics shipped with the system the msd utility windows all act the port isn there not irq conflict because can swap the irqs for com and com and com still works and com still doesn actually noticed this problem when trying install additional ports boca high speed card the behavior with the boca card was exactly the same would work com com com but not com this has the smell port conflict but can imagine with what there are other expansion cards installed the machine other than the video card and gateway would have pretty stupid have the board com conflict with something else the motherboard has anybody else had this problem ran into this about six months ago system megs ram meg ati gup vlb seems the problem that the ati graphics ultra pro card consumes the com port for some reason only com are available believe this documented somewhere the system manuals but can recall where dave peterschmidt
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	jumper settings for ungermann bass pcnic ethernet card does anybody have data sheet handly for the above mentioned card bought one sans manual local surplus shop and want try out with the crywyr packet driver suite the irq and interface select jumpers are pretty straightforward but don grok the settings also labelled through could somebody tell which settings these four jumpers correspond what addresses there anything else about this card should know before plug play dave platt voice domain dplatt ntg com uucp netcomsv ntg dplatt usnail new technologies group inc embarcardero way palo alto
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cmos checksum error recently have been getting cmos checksum error when first turn computer doesn happen everytime turn nor can predict when going happen have ami bios and all the setting are lost for example the drive types and the password options however the date and time remain correct anyone knows what can causing this please let know thank you mike
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	power supply fan makes awful din what all late computer power supply fan has begun make lot noise what can about this had get new power supply get new case where good place selling good tower cases and know there are couple dozen listed the computer shopper but was looking for personal experiences and recommendations divya live long and then die slow and horrible death what confucius wanted say
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	math pro which cpu will give the better performance math intensive programs thanks advance chris teague
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	modem problem dialtone have isa compatible insight with infotel internal fax data modem with quicklinkii for windows when first put the modem pulled phone out the jack another room and ran phone line extension surge protector and then computer the modem worked fine then split the line from the jack the other room ran the line into room into the surge protector and computer then got regular phone and plugged that into the phone jack the modem now when try use the modem quicklinkii says dialtone the phone plugged into the back the computer works fine tried unplugging the phone but still dice that the phone line was split too many times don understand how this could problem since the phone worked fine please note none the software hardware parameters were changed only the phone line itself new modem faulty what can david thomas dudek pwxs ubvms bitnet the cybard state university dudek sun acsu buffalo edu new york music the food love buffalo play shakespeare
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need spec miniscribe hard drive need info regarding miniscribe half height drive there sticker with the following model hda pcba unique tda but the sticker the biggest chip the mfm interface has this model pcba tda fxx what the spec the drive cyl heads etc how fast this drive can use rll drive also have scsi interface that seems match all the connectors for this drive has this description model pcba tda axx can replace the mfm interface the scsi interface and use the drive scsi drive what would the drive size there set jumpers the scsi interface with sel besides what the use could someone also send specs for seagate full height drive mail zhang whbws ornl gov thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how null modem cable kevin kimmell computer science german undergrad kimmell vax cns muskingum edu wrote interrested the extrodinarily simple concept the null modem cable actually have idea don count that last statement what asking what pins does use what are specifications just want solder one myself instead buying one don even know what port used help please kimmell vax cns muskingum edu kevin intending use the cable for transfers via lap link telix ideas and info gladly accepted not have specific knowledge lap link telix but recommendation for any package follow each one instructions for making the null modem cable the reason that each one may different since there isn really standard for communications the following tutorial wrote that will give you understanding about and null modems but you should still check your software will eplain couple details commumications specification for communicating between computer and modem actually can between any end system and any communications hardware the terminology used data terminal equipment dte and data communications equipment dce spells out the voltage levels the connector type the pinouts and the signal protocols the connector but ibm has set alternative standard the primary signals are transmit data recieve data and signal ground there are other signals that provide control between the dte and the dce for example the dte announces that powered and ready participate communications via the data terminal ready dtr signal dtr output the dte and input the dce similarly the dce announces that ready participate communications via the data set ready dsr signal dsr input the dte and output the dce that five signals there are only four more interest the request send rts signal output from the dte and input the dce that used ask the dce permission send data the dce agrees sends via the clear send cts signal for completeness the cts input the dte and output from the dce the other two signals interest are ring indicator and data carrier detect dcd these are both inputs the dte and outputs from the dce just what you would expect signal the dte saying that someone attempting establish connection the dce this rather specific the modem telephone line setup dcd way for the dce announce that the connection has been established the local dce talking some remote dce there that there are many other signals defined but they are obsolete have explained the nine signals that are the pinouts are follows name dtr dsr dcd rts cts now address your problem hand when you connect dte dte there dce pair the middle and therefore the signal definitions don work out quite right there dce assert the cts dsr dcd the common thing not use these signals all and also forget about the dtr and rts outputs well this done you simply make null modem cable that passes through and crosses and pin one end connects pin the other end etc the problem with this solution that that wants send data has way knowing the other ready would have just send the data and hope got through therefore better null modem would include the dtr dsr pair crossed particular point confusion the software area just because you run the wires does not mean that the soft ware will use them you are using the built bios control the serial port then the bios dictates what wires you need and how they are used but you have comm package such brooklyn bridge lap link telix then those packages dictate the cabling requirements the only thing you can guess reliably the and the dtr dsr also fairly common there one more issue that needs addressed here and that flow control the scenerio the dce are responsible for flow control and assumed that the dce couldn possible over run the dte this mean that long the dte has its dtr line asserted the dce will send data without requesting permission first note the contrast the other direction data flow the dte must request permission asserting the rts line and must wait for the cts signal before can send and now the dte dte scenerio the question you need flow control the answser usually but how for non binary communications one common technique xon xoff which implemented software wires are dedicated flow control the and carry the xon and xoff commands this type flow control can used addition hardware flow control but the problem that you can send binary data because your data might include the xon xoff codes and cause erroneous conrol signals work around have the software insert and extract escape codes but the hardware flow control prefered the problem with hard ware flow control that there standard there are lots ways and bet they have all been tried one cornerstone all the methods use the rts cts for one direction but beyond that anything fair game again you must look you comm package for cabling requirements but bet you find that one cable wired properly could work with all the packages long they are the same vintage the way familiar with one package that uses rts cts and dtr dsr for flow control the rts request send and the dtr ready recieve the cts the clear send and the dsr the request recieve this does not mean differnt cable just software the clincher all this cabling stuff that common have the uart directly controlled the cts signal which means that the cts must present even you are not support ing software for these cases you will find cables that short the rts the cts the same end perhaps the dtr the cts other possible shorting might done just because the software expects certain signals that you don have don feel like providing because would mean additional wires specifically talking about the dsr shorting the dtr the dsr not good idea general but you may find cables like this bad idea because defeats the whole purpose one more gotcha signal the dcd some software including the bios expects see the dcd before will work this signal sometimes gets shorted with the dtr but favorite null modem has the rts and cts shorted each end but the rts also connected through the other end and connected dcd and course the dtr dsr are crossed are the and course the must pass through this null modem works with most software the flow control any can use the rts dcd with the dtr dsr your comm package does not specify the cable required for connection then suggest you use this one dtr dsr dsr dtr dcd rts rts dcd cts cts gordon lang
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	netware server and wayne mcdougall had the unmitigated gall say this the software netware level and can see burnt the screen sft netware level however configure netware for level mirrored duplexed disks requires second disk yes yes mirroring requires controller that capable writing two disks once duplexing which the preferred way mirroring uses two controller cards and two disk drives duplexing requires special card and two identical disk drives most cases duplexing can sometimes pulled off with slightly different drives controllers long the sizes are the same how the novell server normally configured the configuration completely the user can install sft netware level level this what causing serialization error you only have one disk then you can use level sft however the osobj disk has serial number and this disk for different version netware then you would get serialization error make sure that this disk actually belongs the rest the set floppies the netware installation set the novell server normally equipped with two hard drives one which has failed two drives could either two netware volumes sft one volume mirrored using sft impossible tell with the network being down would this mean can not install the network software because will not serialized for this hardware with failed drive try disconnecting the failed drive using standard disk controller and installing the software one volume under sft the software will install and the one disk functional then should able work this configuration what else can cause serialization error see the comment concerning the serial number the osobj installation floppy what happens the keycard fails what the keycard attached line noise provided south central bell blue wave qwk the ozone hole bbs private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions inquiries postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	date stuck john bongiovanni had the unmitigated gall say this suddenly the date longer rolls over the time reasonably accurate allways but have change the date hand every morning this involves exiting the menu system get dos did once hear that order for the date advance something like clock has make get date system call apparently the clock hardware interrupt and bios don this date advance automatically the get date call notices that midnight reset flag has been set and then then advances the date when program uses dos call get the system resets the flag that tells the bios that has passed midnight then uses this flag increment the date the menu does call the system get the time before midnight before the bios sees the midnight flag then bios will not know that the day passed and the date will not get updated might have some dos and bios mixed darned cold messed brains but this has been well documented problem for years don know workaround hope this helps two most common elements the universe hydrogen stupidity blue wave qwk the ozone hole bbs private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions inquiries postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ibm link imagewriter larry henson had the unmitigated gall say this hello trying hook apple imagewriter ibm clone seem have problem configuring lpt port accept this how can you adjust baud parity etc fit the system tried mode but did not work anyone can help post mail thanx lpt ports don recognize baud parity etc settings you might tring connect serial printer parallel port try this attach the serial port the printer serial port the use the mode command set the com port settings try mode com set the port parameters then use the mode command redirect the printer port lpt like this mode lpt com this should work good luck time flies like arrow fruit flies like banana blue wave qwk the ozone hole bbs private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions inquiries postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	date stuck michael shapiro had the unmitigated gall say this the dos system date has twenty four hour clock and rollover bit when the system crosses midnight the rollover bit turned subsequent reads the time add one there change possible this information was current through dos not checked see whether applies later versions just small tidbit with the advent dos and later versions added small feature the dos time function program sets the dos clock via dos system services then dos will set the bios clock the same value this breaks the isolation between the two clocks that used ensure that errors the dos clock did not bleed over into the bios clock sometimes the microsoft people just don think fact mickey mouse wears gore wristwatch blue wave qwk the ozone hole bbs private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions inquiries postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how put getter had the unmitigated gall say this this may dumb question but need put hard drive father either mfm rll ide know how hook but how tell the computer the geometry the drive you set the bios but doubt that how done most ide controllers are responsible for keeping track the drive geometry and getting the information the computer the controller may come with software update its board bios may designed work with particular drive seagate drives usually have special controllers for use and these are tailored the drive also you cannot low level format ide drive the low level format stored specal magnetic areas the disk surface called servos not like the electronic use the term that need higher recording bias than the drive recording heads can generate don try low level format ide drive people for the eating tasty animals blue wave qwk the ozone hole bbs private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions inquiries postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	where can buy bios ikos had the unmitigated gall say this the market upgrade bios phoenix got new hard disk discovered bios doesn have type and would like know where can purchase one these things call phoenix they can put you line with replacement bios chips had this when upgraded emerson ide drive also you are installing ide drive and there bios setting that has total volume the same the ide drive volume try using the ide drive can usually respond variety different geometries long the setting that you use equal smaller than the drive actual size the controller will the necessary translation automatically most cases warning not use bios setting that even one byte larger than the actual size the drive smaller setting will not harm the drive but you will sorry you even one byte over drive damage will not result but headaches will backup not found bort etry anic blue wave qwk the ozone hole bbs private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions inquiries postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	modems and noisy lines juan carlos leon had the unmitigated gall say this jcl just got problem have cheapo bps modem which use jcl connect university but get too much garbage the screen jcl know because the noise the line can actually hear jcl question will error correction protocol help eliminate jcl this garbage modem doesn have any these hardware can jcl software implemented protocol the trick there software version mnp available from mtez and will often connect with other modems that are mnp compatible but the modem that you are connecting doesn support mnp then won help error correcting modems will eliminate line noise but only there are error correcting modems both ends the conncetion the added soeed much worth the price error correcting modems baud bis modems are very reasonable and they are only about slower than the more expensive modems the market hard disk full maybe try this message section thing blue wave qwk the ozone hole bbs private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions inquiries postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway booting tim king had the unmitigated gall say this accidentally discovered that have floppy from one particular box diskettets the drive when boot rather than getting the non system diskette message the machine hangs and the cmos gets overwritten luckily gateway sends print the standard just wild thought here but how about this there small boot program every formatted diskette whether not contains system files this small program that prints the non system disk error not dos this program tries transfer control bios location that nonstandard the gateway then could clear the bios don think that the bios overwritten there usually small routine clear the cmos area case invalid configuration prevents the machine from booting think that the boot code the fuji disks may inadvertantly call this routine just thought don hit moderator back topic swear blue wave qwk the ozone hole bbs private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions inquiries postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	com ports mark had the unmitigated gall say this does anyone know what the standard port addresses are for com ports through there standard any sort there are standards for com ports above com while there are facto standards for com they are not guarenteed work the can use ports think but don know the specs good luck tried contain myself but escaped blue wave qwk the ozone hole bbs private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions inquiries postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need help info hard drive terms all been installing new hard drive recently and have run into several terms that not sure about hard sectored soft sectored what the difference how know which use head skew cylinder skew understand that these are related performance how know what optimal drive esdi drive that makes difference discussing these terms any info help greatly appreciated david carlson ucunix san edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	more than type controller possible put more than controller this mean different types rll and mfm how you access the drives the cmos setup they just show configured you have low level writes the controller example put rll controller with drives machine put mfm controller and more drives connected now have drives with controllers different types also can you put controllers the same type into and again how you access them was asked this question and never tried anyone has done this and can supply with info would very pleased thanx advance for any info philip spagnolli actor telerama pgh aliases actor mentor poet relfkin hobbies rpg writing computers acting reading philosophy mudding disclaimer since can only know own existance can offend one
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	isa vlb xor eisa advice wanted need some advice opinions regarding which would best suit needs want use this proposed beast for basically four things editing documents using wordperfect under dos creating graphs analyzing data using sigmaplot under dos editing playing with images using aldus photostyler running under windows these images can large say bits pixel using the xterminal running desqview and sun nfs talking our network sparcstation this where lot the images data come from and the most demanding these tasks read read read magazines performed benchmarks read this newsgroup and decided that nice system price performance would cache isa vlb meg ram ati graphics ultra pro meg ram local bus monitor com etherlink iii bit maxtor ide hard drive however the parts don fit our local retailer apparently put one these together only discover that the ati card wouldn run mhz surprise surprise actually after reading this group surprised that they even have mhz local bus running have choice now between basically the above system but with with isa and vlb with eisa and vlb and thus the non local bus version the ati card which better keeping mind that primarily interested the last two tasks any help would greatly appreciated need decide quickly any speedy help would appreciated even more btw have system now perform these tasks has the following configuration cache isa meg ram ati graphics ultra meg ram monitor smc ethercard bit maxtor ide hard drive quite happy with the ati card very fast once the data gets slow repainting images under photostyler that have moved off screen been uncovered there doesn seem enough raw cpu when running desqview its sluggish running the local window manager also many functions under photostyler take long time even when the images fit entirely ram there not enough memory the system desqview and meg smartdrive don leave much room for other apps photostyler will page disk with medium size images have performed number benchmarks the ethernet transfer rates this machine sustains only sec over ethernet while our sparcs sustain sec the same network going the bit version the smc card increases transfer rates sec still very slow especially when moving large images there such thing local bus ethernet card coming will make difference hoping and leaning towards the choice above for that reason also are there the horizon what about any information greatly appreciated ross mitchell imaging research lab rmitch irus rri uwo john robarts research institute box perth drive office london ontario canada home
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	western digital ide what are peoples opinions the above make hard drives seem have found really good bargain meg drive but thought check anyone had any comments say this make also bit novice with but experienced computer user when connecting and fitting this drive into one spare bays what extras will need cable for starters guess but what about brackets etc also think might have change some jumpers the drive and original connar meg one attaching the second drive seperate ide socket controler card what will need change yet again many thanks all that have answered the past and any that answer the future the artist has produced all this with own imagination and skill yes you the back stop laughing jat cov cch mirrir skippy jase slarts pick
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	can you put isa card into eisa slot howdy netlanders can you put isa card into eisa slot also can you put bit card isa slot please mail possible thanks ahead time david munoz munoz bcstec boeing com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	floppy only reads what wrote article netxcom netx com pdressne netxcom netx com peter dressner writes have gateway with floppy the drive only reads files wrote the floppy floppies that have been formatted and contain files from other machines are unreadable also floppies that were written this defective floppy drive long time ago are also unreadable this sounds like head alignment problem how does one about fixing are there alignment screws that you can adjust thanks advance for your responses peter friend mine had the same problem turned out that his floppy was set drive instead might help matt crowley just remember have known that deep down srg coventry cck inside you were just enough bastard worth liking
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	identify this actually from alistair scott afs tauon unimelb edu have come across old external hard disk and can find any specs for anywhere made nec yes tried tech support help and has model number apc and labelled expansion hard disk can anyone help out with figuring out what this beast the external connector looks like scsi plug and the date the drive chassis pretty old just want see what before deep six rip apart for bits thanks alistair afs tauon unimelb edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	seagate jumper schematics trying setup two seagate tech hard drives master and slave the same system what need such the jumper schematics the two hard drives that have two seagate need the jumpter setting schematics for these two harddrives thanx for you help advance ajp uxa cso uiuc edu ideal wife the woman who has ideal husband
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how hot should the cpu the temp over measured with type thermocouple and fluke dig thermometer this idle temp not doing lots bus not doing floating point not doing bit protected mode etc this micron computer without heatsink recently put heatsink fan the chip but might take the fan off makes horrible whine times and wonder what the vibration doing the pins the cpu etc rob scholten scholten epg nist gov
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	motherboard advice needed article jethro corp sun com lonewolf muse corp sun com peter pak writes does anyone have source for motherboards been calling around the local stores and everyone appears only stocking the motherboards how difficult modify motherboard run mhz simple replacing the system clock with slower part thanks peter know you work sun but that really reason not like fast computers suspect conspiracy here are you trying drag intel through the mud con something really wish you guys would make your own computers faster instead degrading others why don you straight for the top and run pentium mhz while you seriously though why the bleeding hell you want run mhz insert smiley where appropriate mail mail gunnarh sofus dhhalden snail mail gunnar horrigmo gunnarh fenris dhhalden oskleiva norway disclaimer the above posting may seem like insignificant rubbish first glance but you read between the lines you will surprised discover the annals burt bacharach world peace oxford advanced readers dictionary quantum physics made easy and easy use step step walkthrough how make time travelling device that actually works
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi wlsmith valve heart rri uwo wayne smith writes wayne amtower spacecoast org writes ide also uses dma techniques believe floppy controller also uses dma and most boards also use dma dma big deal and has nothing directly with scsi the simple style ide controller does not use dma the cpu performs the data transfer with string move instruction this requires that the cpu stop what had been doing and transfer the data only the smart drive controllers they ide scsi can transfer via dma these controllers tend cost the same wether they are ide scsi get the dma benefits ide must sacrifice price advantage the controller for example when rewinding formatting tape the command issued the controller and the bus released allow access other devices the bus this greatly increases productivity least something else while backing your hard drive which happens what doing while reading this group you can thank your software for that dos had few more brains could format floppies etc while you were doing something else the hardware will support but dos least won again this has nothing with scsi floppies aren the ide bus your arguement makes sense this isn ide issue the floppys have their own processor their controller board which handles all these commands the difference between ide and scsi that all scsi peripherials are intelligent they each have their own controller they depend the cpu fewer things for them ide drives needing processor transfer their data its long story but still use ide except for the cdrom which thanks scsi can move between both machines and when scsi better standardized and supported the ibm clone machines plan completely get rid ide and you stick with dos you wonder why you can multitask again ask why can unix type all the miraculous things with ide harddrive that can with single scsi hard drive the dettach callback mechanism alows the cpu make requests the devices the scsi bus and then dettach and about its business later when the device done issues callback say that the data has arrived the function has completed most scsi cards will also dma the data into memory without the interupting the cpu therefore allowing continue working uninterupted ide supports such concept dettach callback can you see how this would win any multitasking system david willmore willmore iastate edu death before dishonor better dead than greek david willmore ever noticed how much they look like orchids lovely
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how put many all drive controllers have their own bios board handle low level formatting the bios also allows you set the drive properly cylinders heads etc andy robinson psu edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	question about irq and irq have bit serial card with two ports each port has the option using irq also have two serial ports multi card and the ports can set irq from other posts read get the impression that irq the bit card the same irq the multi card right eric dittman texas instruments component test facility dittman skitzo dseg com disclaimer not even opinions found them the side the road
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	where can buy bios article ikosc netcom com ikos netcom com ikos writes the market upgrade bios phoenix got new hard disk discovered bios doesn have type and would like know where can purchase one these things can anybody help out this quest pick copy magazine byte and look the classifieds and small print ads the back there are handful shops that specialize bios upgrades mike schuster schuster panix com compuserve com schuster shell portal com genie mschuster
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how put article apr ultb isc rit edu rxg ultb isc rit edu getter writes this may dumb question but need put hard drive father either mfm rll ide know how hook but how tell the computer the geometry the drive you set the bios but doubt that how done thought might software with the controller card but the ide card for that saw didn come with any also how low level format once the computer assuming drive which needs formatting since there bios support for interface hard disks that support must come from bios extension rom the mfm rll hard disk controller usually the controller has rom based low level format program common jump address you can type from debug see and small table drive geometries knows about sometimes these are selectable using jumpers the card sometimes you can enter them manually the llf menu failing that you must use third party prep program like speedstor disk manager the like ide drives come formatted already and since the controller part the drive mechanism itself concerns about geometry are irrelevant plug and fdisk mike schuster schuster panix com compuserve com schuster shell portal com genie mschuster
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	rom drive help hello all recently acquired rom drive mitsumi mfg feb hey was free quite pleased with the performance but seems crash lot when use playcd exe that came with desqview thoughts this mainly happens when bbs running the background and load the program load the program doesn crash and start the disk stop the program and start the bbs its but otherwise have big problems they can only solved with cold boot anybody can mail help would eternally grateful unfortunately feed this group little unreliable would appreciate you could mail but all means post too because sure somebody else would like know cheers wes wes garland queen university terminal velocity kingston kingston ontario canada fidonet usenet access free jeff lab queensu school bis bps wes garland tvk gtm inc com home send email set full access account
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bus hdd fdd controller ide hdd fdd controller article apr grebyn com richk grebyn com richard krehbiel writes article hpsgm sgp com taybh hpsgm sgp com beng hang tay writes buying quantum lps hardisk and deciding hdd fdd controller bit bus hdd fdd controller faster than bit ide hdd fdd controller card bus ide faster than isa ide the ide interface fundamentally nothing more than extension the isa bus and you hook bus work fast the slower the two meaning isa speed not true ide bus uses signals which has similar name and same meaning the counterpart isa bus but its ide bus signal timing doesn have same isa signal timing ide bus card has set jumpers set its transfer rate from sec sec the manufacturer might have correct these numbers milion byte sec and milion byte sec respectively you cannot transfer data rate sec the isa bus hear that the bus controller slower than ide controller the other hand wouldn expect slower richard krehbiel richk grebyn com will for until amigados for the comes along ken nakata apologize there are incorrect rude and impolite expressions this mail post they are not intended please consider that english second language for and don have full understanding certain words each nuance phrase thank you ken nakata cis student njit
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	upgrading the processor machines case anyone was wondering about upgrading their class machine without spending lot money looked into replacing the processor those machines and here are the facts understand them you have model model you can replace the chip with either cyrix dlc chip for which will increase your processing power about for normal fuctions and not all for math functions this chip will only run your original clock speed you have mhz machine the cyrix dlc will run mhz note windows does not use the math functions good upgrade you are running windows you can get kingston now platform for with mhz which will increase your normal processing power about you were running mhz originally but again will not increase the speed your math fuctions think that will continue run mhz even your original processor runs slower speed there also the kingston now platform for with mhz this might speed your math functions well but not sure you have model other machine with either non clock doubling runs either mhz then you can get intel overdrive chip which really chip and replace your chip with you should get about better preformance for both normal and math functions the mhz version the overdrive chip costs and the mhz version costs the replacement for the mhz chip espeacially good deal provides the math coprocessor which the does not have note that the speed ratings the overdrive chips are the maximum speed which they can run you have mhz then the overdrive chip will run mhz mhz externally and mhz internally there reason buy overdrive chip which rated faster then your machine you will not get faster performance you should able buy these chips from any the microchip merchants that advertise the back magazine week you might want shop around prices vary you need name phone number for source for particular chip mail and will respond with couple sources lawrence khoo khoo husc harvard edu lawrence khoo computer consultant khoo haavelmo harvard edu econ dept harvard
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need info need find how program the faast scsi controller bit dma scsi controller for the isa bus can somebody point the direction some low level docs the net will have get hold the manufacturers who did actually make this anyway who will have the docs tia don ant the bios docs want know how attack this sucker from the ground level send own scsi commands out from hamish marson computer services university waikato hamish waikato fax computers are only disclaimer remember you heard here first human facts are stubborn but statistics are more pliable
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help second install considering adding system equipped with meg maxtor second maxtor meg assume this will not problem however remember reading somewhere that this you needed reformat your original drive this true why drive full and really don like the idea installing everything from floppy please mail post the group mike mike tancsa internet mdtancsa watarts uwaterloo waterloo ontario mike tancsa canrem com canada rosereader entered crs canada remote systems toronto ontario
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until several weeks ago none were devoted publishing cdpub has just been setup any case list not and ought not replacement for regular usenet newsgroups the reason for the division into three groups natural partition interest between the hardware and software topics and between the two main focal points software fulltext and multimedia publishing topics such cdrom cdi photo and other related formats would included well topics related cdrom publishing that are neither clearly hardware software related such books copyright issues and other legal matters packaging distribution could included the purvue comp publish cdrom software would any other nonhardware multimedia topic that relates some way cdrom publishing any format and appropriate the internet the main focus comp publish cdrom software would topics such index and retrieval software premastering software cdrom simulation software hypertext sgml scanning and imaging software data capture software data clean compression encryption etc relates publishing cdroms the main focus comp publish cdrom multimedia would software that aids the multimedia authoring and publishing process audio and video the main focus comp publish cdrom hardware would hardware that relates cdrom publishing well hardware for data capture such all sorts scanners and data capture hardware well information that publishers need know about the hardware that the intended enduser will utilize the hardware that will eventually play the published cdrom including networks for cdrom notes these groups are not used for topics such reviews questions relating already published cdroms reviews questions relating general purpose cdrom drives and the like requests for help installing cdrom drive and other general topics should directed other fora questions about cdroms mounted lans should directed bit listserv cdromlan charter proposed charter comp publish cdrom software the usenet newsgroup comp publish cdrom software will newsgroup for discussion the following example topics but not limited them index and retrieval software authoring software scanning and imaging software ocr and ocr cleanup hypertext sgml premastering and simulation cdrom software copyright and legal issues related publishing cdroms other nonhardware topics related cdrom publishing proposed charter comp publish cdrom hardware the usenet newsgroup comp publish cdrom hardware will newsgroup for discussion the following example topics but not limited them equipment data capture hardware scanners video and audio capture hardware networking hardware midi hardware photo hardware publishing systems cdi and dvi hardware compression and encryption hardware keyboarding other hardware publishing topics proposed charter comp publish cdrom multimedia the usenet newsgroup comp publish cdrom multimedia will newsgroup for discussion the following example topics but not limited them multimedia authoring software imaging software audio and midi software color control software video editing software audio editing software multimedia utilities useful for publishers integration text image audio and video compression and encryption multimedia multimedia copyright and related legal issues multimedia databases and hypertext other multimedia publishing topics henry manaster email manaster edu brooklyn disclaimer the above not necessarily opinion nor that anyone else
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help dip switch settings ast hot shot could someone please tell what the dip switches the back the ast hot shot accellerator card recently acquired the card and did not get any docs any information will appreciated rob robert bultman speed scientific school university louisville internet rmbult starbase spd louisville edu robert bultman speed scientific school university louisville internet rmbult starbase spd louisville edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	any body have more than meg ram leading edge have leading edge with megs ram that are the forms meg simms each simm has two chips they are manufactured samsung and are salesman told that the leading edge cpc motherboard has the extra parity bit built and reccomemnded use mac simms tried using megs pulled out mac these are chip simms but got too many windows protection faults and parity errors guess should use the same simms the ones have but can find any most the places have called carry only chip simms anybody knows where can get memory that good with computer you have any suggestions all please let know any help truly appreciated eric ebosco oracle com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wincim baud had similar problems downloading using wincim discovered that disabled data compression modem works fine
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with hicolor modes can any body tell where the most significant bit the total horizontal width hides out the tseng labs with bit dac trying use the mode under unix cant just call int have program which dumps the contents the card registers under dos but not sure trust for the extended registers the anyway the problem that this mode the horizontal total register index apparently set but index the displayed clocks set xef nonsense resonable value would there high bit and where also how does one set the video dot clock the appropriate frequency and what would appropriate frequency the documentation isn really very clear tseng txt from vgadoc zip from some ftp site about this card megavga card seems have tseng labs bios ver think works nicely under dos and very well under unix linux all the non hicolor modes great for running windows your monitor will take only just case please email the answer can read news very often thanks very much david
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	programming the beeper need able cause beep but without using any interrupt routines cannot use the bios believe that the pic might have something with but having troubles deciphering the information have figure out how program programming all this turbo that makes any diference all please can anyone help thanks nicola
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors article pisw mcgill gerardis mcgill the gif emporium writes nec now also available the nec fge only difference accucolor any experiences opinions from people who have used the nec would appreciated since want get one right after exams are all done about week from now have and think great haven seen the nanao can compare but the image very sharp and the color contrast extremely good used other trinitron monitors sun color monitors which trinitron and think the least good perhaps brighter and has none these silly horizontal lines running across btw could wrong but thought that the fge slower well missing accucolor may not able handle the way the can cheers dan div neuroscience baylor college medicine baylor plaza houston tso cephalo neusc bcm tmc edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	speed led for gateway motherboard recently got tower case for gateway file server mostly because needed the extra drive bays and better power supply this case has led for the processor speed there place plug this the motherboard not there anyway hack something make work tia eric eric huppertz ejhupper ilstu edu hey these aren rules come think don have any rules beetlejuice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	archive controler frederic pierre fred sobel strasbg wrote hello looking for supplier archive tape drive controlers european preferred who could provide card for old drive who knows where could find such beast thank you advance for your attention similarly looking for controllers for archive even the number contact archive whatever the company called would help gerry george anything good life either school management boston univ illegal immoral fattening internet ggeorge acs edu any item not the above three compu erve compuserve com categories causes cancer rats
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	modems and noisy lines apr gmt chris crayton chris crayton ozonehole com wrote there software version mnp available from mtez and will often connect with other modems that are mnp compatible but the modem that you are connecting doesn support mnp then won help error correcting modems will eliminate line noise but only there are error correcting modems both ends the conncetion the added soeed much worth the price error correcting modems baud bis modems are very reasonable and they are only about slower than the more expensive modems the market what mtez dealer repository any details penio penev internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cpu fans just got mhz system and considering getting fan for the cpu the processor when running too hot touch think this fairly good idea long ago when did some electronics training read somewhere that the regions within chip that define junctions gates etc slowly diffuse over time and this increases with temperature hence hot chip goes off spec sooner has anyone out there got cpu fan work for small oem offer both personal and professional system line our pro machines always have cpu cooling fan and units there more than type there are several manufacturers you have remove the cpu from its scoket install the fan sometimes depends the specific fan model all cpu fans derive their power from spare drive power lines all the ones seen many come with connector you don have have spare connector anyone had any trouble with cpu fans none does anyone have any evidence that cpu fans are complete waste money touch chip after its been running few minutes you won feel the fan waste how are these fans attached glue clips melted cheese depends the model many use clips make sure you use heat sink grease heat transfering tape you will have wasted your money roughly how much cooler will the cpu with fan opposed without advert read claims tough tell know the chip sheds lot heat slmr murphy was optimist your data backed via dlgqwk
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	laplink serial parallel cables serial cables there are only three output signals dtr and rts there are five inputs signals dsr dcd cts and there are many differnt null modem requiremts dictated the software the ibm bios requires asserts dtr and rts and then waits for both dsr and cts before sending when bios recieve call made asserts dtr and waits for dsr become true times out after while and returns with error dsr never becomes true requires cts true for sending and recieving most communications packages bypass this and replace with their own protocol the key that each comm package could very well have different requirements favorite cable works many cases short rts cts each end but also run rts through dcd the opposite end runs through and dtr runs through dsr from both dte and course goes through have never had trouble with this null modem even though have used with comm package that was expecting rts cts instead dcd the advantage this cable that also works with the ibm bios gordon lang
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	problems with toshiba cdrom imj cunixa columbia edu imad jureidini writes recently purchased the toshiba cdrom own adaptec scsi card and have far failed get the cdrom work under dos works very well under know that the drive not faulty config sys have aspi dos sys aspidisk sys aspicd sys autoexec bat have mscdex which came with dos mscdex seems find and install the drive drive but when switch that drive and try dir get error message telling the drive not ready something like that the cdrom locked too and the adaptec utilities don seem recognize that have cdrom that point the current adaptec drivers not support the toshiba you should get the corel scsi drivers which support this the method that used and works well corel phone number just satisfied user jonathan bayer intelligent software products inc winthrop jbayer ispi com edison
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	isa vlb xor eisa advice wanted thu apr gmt ross mitchell rmitch irus rri uwo wrote want use this proposed beast for basically four things editing documents using wordperfect under dos creating graphs analyzing data using sigmaplot under dos editing playing with images using aldus photostyler running under windows these images can large say bits pixel using the xterminal running desqview and sun nfs talking our network sparcstation this where lot the images data come from and the most demanding these tasks read read read magazines performed benchmarks read this newsgroup and decided that nice system price performance would cache isa vlb meg ram ati graphics ultra pro meg ram local bus monitor com etherlink iii bit maxtor ide hard drive however the parts don fit our local retailer apparently put one these together only discover that the ati card wouldn run mhz surprise surprise actually after reading this group surprised that they even have mhz local bus running have choice now between basically the above system but with with isa and vlb with eisa and vlb and thus the non local bus version the ati card which better keeping mind that primarily interested the last two tasks having mind the size the images opinion with vlb has much more bandwith that eisa which fact can utilized the craphics card have not made measures someone else may share experience that also the faster the operations that run off internal cache slightly slower off the external and about the same off memory advice the vlb quite happy with the ati card very fast once the data gets slow repainting images under photostyler that have moved off screen been uncovered there doesn seem enough raw cpu when running desqview its sluggish running the local window manager also many functions under photostyler take long time even when the images fit entirely ram there not enough memory the system desqview and meg smartdrive don leave much room for other apps photostyler will page disk with medium size images have you tried running photostyler without the cache need have paging and cache both well you might argue that the paging cached belief measurements that apps left with more memory will manage better than smartdrv exe sys have performed number benchmarks the ethernet transfer rates this machine sustains only sec over ethernet while our sparcs sustain sec the same network going the bit version the smc card increases transfer rates sec still very slow especially when moving large images there such thing local bus ethernet card coming will make difference hoping and leaning towards the choice above for that reason the bandwidth theoretical isa over which far from tried isa ide hard drive maxtor and got the same results regardless the isa bus speed mhz guess that just the card drivers combination lousy also are there the horizon what about the rumors are that any the most likely chip come out but note that ibm closest the technology will only sell whole motherboards you have upgrade the any information greatly appreciated just some view not much figures penio penev internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi mon apr gmt wayne smith wlsmith valve heart rri uwo wrote article richk apr gozer grebyn com richk grebyn com richard krehbiel writes when you got multi tasking you want increase performance increasing the amount overlapping you one way with dma bus mastering either these make possible for devices move their data into and out memory without interrupting the cpu the alternative for the cpu move the data there are several scsi interface cards that allow dma and bus mastering how you bus mastering the isa bus earlier post noted through dma ide however defined the standard interface created for the ibm which requires the cpu move all the data bytes with dma talking isa bus here then you can only have dma channel active any one time presumably transferring data from single device even though you can have least devices scsi bus explain how all those devices can dma transfers through single scsi card the isa bus the same time any one time means imho single byte xfer have four sources dma requests ready the dma would service the one after the other the bandwidth for the four together lower than the isa dma bandwidth this will work note that the bus mastering here the priority mechanism the dma controller penio penev internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	consumer warning midwest micro ohio thinking buying from midwest micro ohio think very carefully unless you are absolutely sure you won have any problems you may want trade elsewhere despite the fact that they answer the phone whoever and having great day they weren quite happy when wanted return modem that didn work expected the details ordered one their house brand infotel internal fax modems reality was twincom lightning fax that had paper sticker over the name given the poor reports the net about this modem would not have ordered had known this advance arrived time the documentation stated that would work and was preconfigured com providing that com was not use the same time for several reasons have serial card configured for com com the time installed the modem nothing was connected com although the modem appeared work during every connection would randomly break the connection and hang the phone after spending some time the phone with midwest tech support they suggested disabling the com port this appeared solve the disconnect problem but was unacceptable long term solution had have com and available even though they both would not use the same time the modem called back minutes prior their closing and waited voicemail hell listening repeated advertisements for midwest micro products was then promptly disconnected apparently was quiting time and they didn want bothered with callers that had been waiting the line called the next day and asked the customer diservice agent for rma number she promptly switched tech support rep that implied that was equipment fault and that wasn going give rma number suggested use some nonstandard irq settings solution was not happy with the modem should work originally configured conclusion not sure the modem would work basic system but clearly does not work multi port system like mine since time worth more than the aggravation the cost the modem gave local charitable organization with description problem and ordered practical peripherals from connection for more have solid external modem built company know will support their users and sold company based personal experience will treat right there problem should have known better
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scsi and ide what the difference article apr dal tominatr dal writes stupid question from new ibm user going selling mac and getting gateway retching noises talk about out the frying pan and into the fire are scsi drives faster than ide pretty sure scsi faster along with lot better compatability alex jhereg iastate edu the universe damn sig
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	courier sportster note followups comp dcom modems for obvious reasons article usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu andy nicola writes previous article maccs mcmaster holly says what the difference between the robotics courier bis external and the sportster external see that the price sportster has dramatically dropped below but the price the courier remains above anyone with knowledge both these modems anyone that owns courier the courier their top the line product thus the higher price never taken real look the sportster line only couriers but from what gathered basically more entry level modem probably doesn meet the same specifications that the courier does not sure the sportster line fully dsp driven like the more recent courier modems are upgrades the future may issue again take all the above with grain salt never evaluated the sportster going bits and pieces that heard you want real answer post the question comp dcom modems and you find people who have worked with the sportster personally though were going look the courier modems buy the dual standard then get both hst and bis fact this exactly what did sitting here looking usr right now and now correct few very incorrect statements folks you want get reliable answers modem and uart questions post them comp dcom modems you post other groups you never know what you get the way answer you may very well get good answer you may get something like the one below least cdm someone posts complete and utter you see flurry folks correcting them avoid spreading faulty info the sportster has error control and bis data compression just does lower speeds too there absolutely nothing either ccitt recommendation bis that says that they can only operate modems that are running bis bis course currently only standardized for operation top its primary mode operation lapm but that about far that goes and just case there some confusion this bis are also supported the courier line unless you have really ancient one the difference with the courier that can run and only the hst mode take second look the original question previous article maccs mcmaster holly says what the difference between the robotics courier bis external see the bis there the question was not about the courier hst modem about the courier dual standard was about the courier bis modem the modem question does not support hst period therefore does not support the hst also not all courier hst courier dual standard modems support the version hst dual standard only supports hst there are even older models that only run hst this proprietary mode usr and will only connect another the same type unit achieve this speed hst usr proprietary modulation scheme but not talking about hst talking about bis bis most definitely not proprietary modulation scheme the sportster will asynchronous transmissions well synchronous the hst one way only hope you didn mean for these two sentences related some way first off and bis are both synchronous and asynchronous this part the ccitt recommendation part the standard isn feature unique the sportster just looked the appropriate chapter the courier manual second hst not one way only more correctly put asymmetrical modulation scheme meaning doesn work the same speed both directions hst operates one direction and has low speed back channel the other direction the high speed channel goes the direction the higher data flow this fine you logged say bbs and type one letter and get screens info back transfer files not using bimodem etc there course penalty for turnaround time when the high speed channel needs reverse directions and bis are both symmetrical meaning they transfer the full data rate both directions the same time third synchronous asynchronous has absolutely nothing with symmetrical asymmetrical they are two completely different topics the hst will upgradeable the fast spec when available again more correctly put some the courier line will upgradeable whatever fast called when complete you have the large footprint courier modems like you there was upgrade plan while back upgrade small footprint variety which could eventually upgraded support fast but the cost the two upgrades together pretty much put higher than just buying new modem later jim include std disclaimer ial internet jim ial mythical com graham ieee org icbm amateur radio ial zbb walton beach amtor selcal nial mail for information about kamterm host mode for kantronics tncs
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	modems and uarts article apr ncsu edu rjbaucom eos ncsu edu ryan jeffrey baucom writes have couple questions what uart and see response comp dcom modems all your answers are there btw next time you must cross post into other groups cross post instead posting multiple copies that way only one copy your article must transmitted the network and only one copy stored people disks except the case brain damaged news software jim include std disclaimer ial internet jim ial mythical com graham ieee org icbm amateur radio ial zbb walton beach amtor selcal nial mail for information about kamterm host mode for kantronics tncs
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how loopback connector made skcgoh tartarus uwa edu shaw goh writes uwovax uwo wrote need know the pins connect make loopback connector for serial port can build one the loopback connector used test the serial port thanks for any help steve too skcgoh tartarus uwa edu pin serial loopback plug you need connect the following pins pin pin pin pin pins and together pins and together pins and together pin pin that should note that lot these pins are redundant many implementations phil phil burg computer unit csiro division entomology australia life sexually transmitted disease with mortality rate
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	diamond stealth help article last newsgroups comp sys ibm hardware from redmond cmu edu redmond english subject diamond stealth help date wed apr hello have diamond stealth vram card the older version with the dip switches the back have two problems lost the manual have machine with network card and everything works fine until run windows when the network connection dies case important the network card smc arcnet bit compatable card address and ram base address also using irq shown press space for more quit for help believe there file the diamond bboard that explains how sort this out but with manual don know the bboard number you can please help with many the following possible send the diamond bbs number mail post the dip switch settings for the card fax them tell what doing wrong can magicly get everything working any help all would much appreciated thanks advance red end file press return quit date thu apr redmond cmu edu subject diamond stealth help diamond bbs baud baud voice fax sam press return continue gosh think just installed virus was called dos don copy that floppy burn just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	any info cyrix dru chip seems that there are lot questions regarding the cyrix compatible dlc and dru info comes directly from cyrix fast fax service and also from installing one these chips ibm model the dlc instruction set compatible cpu which fits into socket pin grid array pga the dlc currently available speeds the the and the they not have coprocessor board but any software query will return coproc present guess they emulate the coproc instructions math functions are the level without the actual coprocessor the internal cache the dlc cyrix literature claims hit rate informal tests show that the cache accounts for performance boost when enabled software overall performance boost from dlc about the benchmarks used were and qaplus dhrystones and whetstones the performance with the cache enabled about par with with external cpu cache which around the performance for the computer runs noticebly faster and dos with dblspace not complaining the company claims compatibility but didn test the dru not chip commonly thought the dru actually small daughterboard slightly larger than the which contains the logic manage the clock doubler this board plugs into the pga and the dlc plugs into this board guess the board doubles the frequency apparent the cpu and insert wait states when access the rest the system required there are info available from cyrix there anyway the dru available for and only double these clock rates and you get the mhz and the mhz dlcs cyrix planning the same thing for the dru then they need put out the mhz dlc first also tested dlc motherboard along with cyrix coprocessor with external cache performance were about faster than the but still significantly slower than actual intel imho the dlc great low price upgrade for people who can afford can install new motherboard definitely worth what paid for but you need performance the dlc won cut not sure about the dlc but think even matches the performance won beat any significant way the last time posted info about the dlc people sent quite bit mail asking where got here where got mine treasure chest peripherals they advertise the computer shopper the dlc kit was but liked the chip much that found the supplier and became dealer you are interested the chip mail and can fax mail you more info well aware the net policy against commercial use can post anymore info here however there are more questions regarding the dlc itself post what can jamesc someone asks you are god you say yes
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how hot should the cpu article last newsgroups comp sys ibm hardware from scholten epg nist gov robert scholten subject how hot should the cpu date wed apr the temp over measured with type thermocouple and fluke dig thermometer this idle temp not doing lots bus not doing floating point not doing bit protected mode etc this micron computer without heatsink recently put heatsink fan the chip but might take the fan off makes horrible whine times and wonder what the vibration doing the pins the cpu etc rob scholten scholten epg nist gov end file press return quit rob don worry about the whine the fan will away about weeks use mine did the vibration well that something thought about have tower case and the mounted vertically mounted the fan the case that just blows air the cpu and its heatsink instead work just like charm but the realy biggy think about after the whine goes away the fan the fan should stop burn out how would you ever know this before the cpu goes smoke thats what you should thinking about have the parts together but have not had the time assemble them yet but you build thermistor controlled circuit that will turn pesso speaker and led when the temp goes above the normal operating range there abouts cheep you use radio shack junk under think about that one for while sam gosh think just installed virus was called dos don copy that floppy burn just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	mit how get info and how install netters have seen some postings from mit this package out should full tcp fro the dos machines there anyone out there that using want connect dos machine machine tell what the dos machine should run sample config and autoexec would great and where can find nfs client understand that telnet and ftp client are part the package got the crynwr package drivers but that please point good source information you cannot help yourself regards name meuldijk address gildelaar teteringen fax holland mail volkert kub oooo oooo
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	upgrading the processor machines boy glad that didn start out with one thos computers started the upgrade operation out spending for amd dxl forex upgradable mother board from midwest micro when was time upgrade bought intel cpu for and was finished still don see why they ever made the cpu all its fast for both isa and and vesa boards some test results taken and cpu and some others tal upgrades specs turbo mode tests with fan heatsink kit isa bus tal mhz cpu mhz cpu speed mhz fpo mhz video chr and mhz amd mhz mhz mhz mhz mhz mhz with all tests the ran ice cold not even room temp did cpu isa bus tal mhz bus speed mhz speedstar video card amd dxl mhz inoperative amd dxl mhz chr amd dxl mhz chr amd dxl mhz chr amd dxl mhz not tested mhz chr mhz not tested mhz not tested mhz not tested mhz not tested mhz chr mhz chr mhz not tested mhz not tested mhz not tested mhz not tested mhz chr mhz not tested mhz not tested mhz not tested mhz chr mhz chr gosh think just installed virus was called dos don copy that floppy burn just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help led connectors for motherboard bought motherboard for documentation all everything appears work except having trouble getting few the led connectors working looked the manuals for other motherboards but the pin configuration doesn look anything like what this board does this pin arrangement look familiar anyone out there any hints where can find this information speaker keylock the board came with jumper vertically across these two pins can get the power keylock work across pins reset across pins and but would prefer not blow something further experimentation the date the board itself opti chips would really appreciate any help and thank you advance stassen lantz
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	diamond stealth help article usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu sam latonia writes article last newsgroups comp sys ibm hardware from redmond cmu edu redmond english subject diamond stealth help date wed apr hello have diamond stealth vram card the older version with the dip switches the back have two problems lost the manual have machine with network card and everything works fine until run windows when the network connection dies case important the network card smc arcnet bit compatable card address and ram base address also using irq remainder deleted don have copy the manual with right now but can offer the following the interim the card uses port addresses and which are not configurable these addresses incidentally were inadvertantly omitted from version the manual believe there dip that controls whether not enable irq for cga ega support lance hartmann lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com yes that percent sign network address all statements comments opinions etc herein reflect those the author and shall not misconstrued those ibm anyone else for that matter
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	vcpi memory standard just read article another group that mentions this have never heard the vcpi memory standard can someone explain what this thanks greg cisko
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	consumer warning midwest micro ohio must say that have been customer midwest micro for over years now and have been well taken care each purchase have had many friends that have bought that same modem and they have some experience with setting modems there have been problems them that know the fact that your time valuable for you spend the modem where you went wrong why you say because must tell you the yes say ppi modems that have had the past that was trying use bbs they all were junk and were replace times each ther point that just said forget and wanted money back ppi teck even said that they didn even repair them that they just strip the parts that are good and junk thr rest the modem think was more your fault than midwest mirco faulkt sam gosh think just installed virus was called dos don copy that floppy burn just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bit box gateway dir article apr hpcvca com scott hpcvccl com scott linn writes while playing around with gateway local bus machine last night became apparent that windows didn give the option for bit access for virtual memory using permanent swap file and the disk drive the local bus interface this expected should investigating further why bit option appears thanks for any help scott linn scott hpcvccl com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	date stuck directory msdos sysutl filename type length date description clkdev zip keep dos time synch with battery clock chip index all files the wsmr simtel army mil dos collection available two formats directory msdos filedocs filename type description simibm zip comma delim list all msdos files descrip simlist zip text format list all msdos files descrip these files are updated every days see aaaread that directory for details simtel allows only nine anonymous ftp logins during weekday prime time mountain time gmt but otherwise simtel files are also available anonymous ftp from mirror sites oak oakland edu wuarchive wustl edu archive orst edu ftp net nic funet src doc nic switch archie nctuccca edu mail through the bitnet earn file servers uucp from uunet got srcs see uunet file uunet info archive help for details oak oakland edu the primary mirror site for wsmr simtel army mil all other mirrors except wuarchive and all listserv and trickle servers get their simtel files from oak instead simtel because much faster and allows more simultaneous ftp connections oak always sync with simtel because maintain addition duties simtel run oak mirror program whenever new files are added simtel msdos ann tacom emh army mil one way moderated mailing list which used the internet dos archive managers announce new additions their collections the announcements posted this mailing list are also posted usenet newsgroup comp archives msdos announce your host has usenet news please not subscribe msdos ann add yourself the mailing list send mail listserv tacom emh army mil with this command the body the message subscribe msdos ann subscribe something other than the account the mail coming from such local redistribution list then add that address the subscribe command for example subscribe local msdos ann subscribe local msdos ann your domain net msdos ann please not include signature because may confuse the server send mail with the word help the body the message get complete list commands and their syntax you later change your mind and wish unsubscribe send mail from the same address where you were when you subscribed send listserv tacom emh army mil with this command the body the message unsubscribe msdos ann this server only for mailing lists and information files will not send program files keith keith petersen maintainer the dos archive wsmr simtel army mil internet sdz tacom emh army mil sdz vela acs oakland edu uucp uunet umich vela sdz bitnet sdz oakland
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	consumer warning midwest micro ohio ran out time last reply this string and don know was sent not but have never heard anyone that had return something the grace peried that had problem all with midwest micro they may thought that you didn know what you were doing and suggested how correct the problem but sounded you didn give them much chance correct things all the fact that the ppi worked okay for you because setup more for the nothing user that can understand the instruction and the commands configure his her system when you find out things like the fact the the led that looks like you have connected another modem doesn realy say that but that only tells you that you have turned your modem think that these led are nothing more that just light hype the product just like bet someone took home few extra the last year for giving the ppi modems the magazine award the year not for the stash them that saw test bench could for hours end all the problems that found with the ppi modems but will try control myself will not even into the weeks took ppi credit card back for the modems after they had received them back will not into that one nor will into talking the parent from hayes just say hope you like your new modem and maybe someone that can understand how setup modem will get the one that you sent back maybe good friend mine hope gosh think just installed virus was called dos don copy that floppy burn just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	needed videotaped output need videotaped copy program please let know you can this marc dna ucs usl edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help eisa board configuration problems just bought new amiecu eisa motherboard and adaptec fast scsi controller wanted install the aha and did written the amiecu manual but the cfg utility told get newer version the adaptec configuration overlay file named adp ovr because the old one not compatible motherboard the adaptec driver utility version can you help please name frederic tschannen adress university fribourg iiuf misericorde fribourg switzerland mail tschannen cfruni bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	info port requested all during attempts find out how the harddisk controller works stumbled across port the normal controller ports are the range what does this port the only information have upto now about this port that write only port and the information you have write related the number heads the disks could somebody shed some light this and give the missing info thanks engelbert torremans huizen the netherlands email etorrem cbnewsj att com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	can set com article rajn cbnewsh att com bnc cbnewsh att com john siegel writes have been unable get com work diagnostic programs such msd show nothing installed think the software options are there known hardware conflict and workaround for this problemand rom system tower with ati video card the video card compatible which means uses the same addresses com john hood cthulhu just imagine jhood smoke marlboro
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors nanao hello been following discussions monitors comp sys ibm hardware and noted that the nanao seems get very good reviews interested getting more information about nanao products well some others that may fit the bill would like monitor that can handle high resolutions like envisioning using this monitor amiga amiga graphics board like the retina and sun like the sparcstation basically want high resolution versital monitor this monitor need not large meets the brief requirements outlined above been very happy with suns and could probably cope with smaller home interested anyone has more details high quality sony and hitatchi monitors since they seem used sun fairly often and look pretty good least haven seem them brought very often are mag and viewsonic stuff like find out how can get ahold nanao what are the products their line what are the technical specs esp what scan freq and max resolutions can they handle what list and street cost avail from third party and where can get ahold them same info for sony and hitatchi thank you very much john navitsky johnn eskimo com exercise right today
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how can get com port working hello for months unsuccessfully attempted get either serial port working system various systems diagnostics msd norton tell there but anything hook can use have two serial ports the motherboard set internal fax modem for com the utility programs report com checked make sure all the irqs and addresses are correctly listed most manuals set missing something very basic where should from here any help even point the right direction would most appreciated david besonen davidb student umass edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	unix and dos talking qic tapes kdq quest uucp kevin quitt writes have system with scsi drive want get qic tape unit attach and then run software that will read and maybe even write unix tar tapes least just read stream and dump file take from there why this impossible isn use tar the box and gtak zip the dos box needs aspi driver ralf ralf bergs aachen university technology comp eng student snail uckeswagener str gummersbach fed rep germany phone answ mach note new zip july email rabe pool informatik rwth aachen
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	soundblaster irq and port settings article pdb kilimanjaro jpl nasa gov pdb ipl jpl nasa gov paul bartholomew writes when two more devices isa bus share interrupt because they implemented single card interesting would you care explain then how soundblaster pro card and printer card are sharing irq successfully assure you that they are both set irq and that have problem computer dtk ibm clone paul bartholomew pdb ipl jpl nasa gov you can configure devices for the same irq long you don use them simultaneously under dos least both lpt and just sit there until you tell them something you can configure soundblaster for irq you got ethernet card which hits that irq thousand times per second markus
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cpu temperature cpu activity lino montuno montuno physics wrote this may very naive question but there any basis for the claim that cpu will get hotter when computationally intensive job running friend claims that there will little difference the temperature idle cpu and cpu running computationally intensive job lino montuno totally agree with your friend since when the cpu apparently idle still fact churning away millions instructions per second checking for keyboard input for instance the exception this for cpu used laptops where the cpu can enter idle state where just preserving its current status but doing absolutely nothing this case needs hardware interrupt get going again victor buttigieg mail victor man comms communications research group university manchester
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	switch settings for bondwell recently got hold old obsolete first thing trying with making work seems the switches the back have been toggled since last was used and not have the manual can anybody help identify this beast and mail the prober switch settings all know that bondwell made most likely can toggled between and mhz and looks like changes have been made any information would appreciated terje johansen trondheim college engineering norway conscience once became bad that died
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	always decent got working wimpy presently few months getting motherboard and probably toshiba cdrom and sbpro will need special drivers for getting all this work they exist basically this feasible should expect getting newer faster scsi card thanks bryan bryan welch amateur radio sfg internet europa vnet ibm com best bwelch scf nmsu edu everything will perish save love and music scots gaelic proverb disclaimer all opinion everything there
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	fooling check for existance keyboard with resistor have the following problem have use computer for special purposes that doesn have monitor and keyboard connected monitor isn program but keyboard can disable the keyboard from bios setup fact there setup spoke someone who said that had fooled the bios with simply using self made connector that connects two pins via resistor pity pity lost contact the person before getting more detail does anyone you experts can help thanks for any hints even vague ones thomas thomas opheys mutter beimer erich robert engel tanja opheys kirk fmi uni passau schildknecht klausi onkel franz rehlein franz stockbauer weg pichelsteiner walze else kling iffi passau germany ich liiiiiiebe euch echt
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help adding scsi drive article apr oracle oracle com ebosco oracle com eric bosco writes have computer with seagate ide drive and controler built into the motherboard want add scsi drive quantum prodrive formatted have documentation all and need your help understand here the process adding such drive could you please tell right buy scsi contoler which one know adaptec good but they are kind expensive are there any good boards the region want compatible with and unix possible also have seen the net that there are scsi and scsi drives this true does the adapter need the same the drive what type drive the quantum have tried others but think that the adaptec best value for money connect the drive the adapter via scsi cable and the power cable have worry about the power supply think have watts and all powering are two floppies and the seagate drive dont think you can mix the two types drive unless you have one the scsi ide cards that available you will have turn your ide off setup the bios recognize the drive the second drive what type drive this don have the numbers for this drive instructions for drive type are included with the controller with some may type matter what the disk with others may type had one controller that had tell the bios that hard disk was installed format and create partitions the drive use format fdisk think that ide drives can low level formatted the same with scsi how exactly does fdisk work have reduced msdos manual clone obliges and there mention fdisk ideally would want the drive partitioned two partitions and how this not low level format scsi unless you have the scsi low level format program first use fdisk set the partitions then use format well that seems all there anythiing forgetting any help really appreciated lost eric ebosco oracle com mark mark physchem
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dont have harddisk type hello friend mine has commodore and put that machine second harddisk now has but the problem that the harddisk isn supported the bios alas there user type the setup the moment use type but there are getting bad blocks the harddisk question who knows solution this seen small program for this once the byte but haven been able find this would speedstor diskmanager work for this used these programs quite lot the days but don have these anymore seagate used ship diskmanager with each drive they sold help will greatly appreciated ronald schalk schalk uci kun
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	 what the difference between uart and uart thanks the loose cogs and sprockets the mind hamsters have natural habitat anymore wild hamsters does their world consists only plastic gym that call their home while they call hell funny how like watch others sweat while our butts take root the sofa don think hamsters sweat shave one and get back you robert bobby yung lehigh edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	fast what taking long why going take year for fast become standard are there technical problems work out just bureaucratic slowdown thanks the loose cogs and sprockets the mind hamsters have natural habitat anymore wild hamsters does their world consists only plastic gym that call their home while they call hell funny how like watch others sweat while our butts take root the sofa don think hamsters sweat shave one and get back you robert bobby yung lehigh edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	teac harddisk jumper setting please have bought new harddisk and want use with old teac harddisk unfortunataly not have any documentation with this harddisk could someone please tell how should set the jumpers for master slave thanks advance robert tenback rhtenbac ruu robert tenback rhtenbac ruu utrecht the netherlands
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	drdos msdos using drdos with superstor for nearly years now and wondering msdos could keep with last there anybody who tried out both what about this double disk had lots problems with sstor too how much memory you get got with emm and sstor what about the line help really great drdos any help appreciated
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	qic streamer software prolem using qic compatible streamer and really like but now terrible typo archive description drives mad ervery time there any software which can rename even better delete such archives any help really appreciated
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	diy and pcs interested building own can anyone recommend available book the subject and sources for parts alternatively can anyone recommend source for mhz again available just seen computer weekly that the march price for these has fallen sterling including monitor keyboard delivery and vat but can find single advert that would give system that price many thanks for your help
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	trakker backup those who own cms trakkers please email with your thoughts your machine and specifics such avg file access etc ben beng dorsai dorsai org
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	windows virtual memory got and using windows sometimes wondered why windows worked endlessly when was doing nothing execpt having lunch something like that then turned this virtual memory swapfile off and windows became quite faster but now having less memory free and still wondering why windows reading everything from virtual memory when the convertional sufficient any common sense explanation really appreciated
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	delayed write caches using norton cache which really nice but horrible incompatible some games won work streamer software won work with and windows doesn like all but when copying deleting lots small files only ncache really fast you see write file the fat must changed but write files the fat must changed only once there any cache program out there which smart enough the same and good enough run with all applications any help really appreciated
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	don buy from computers planning buy computer and like ads can you tell anything about the company and their computers also anyone has company they would prefer please let know yes they are nice ads and even better great prices but this all the outside the consumer sees this and orders little they know they will get poor service very poor when ordered hard drive from about months ago received the mail installed and discovered didn work sent back them and they said they send refund check took many many many phone calls and hate mail well threats lawsuit get back fact took two whole months calling and threatening every time call would put the run around until finally wound answering machine leave name and phone but didn even get called back once one pissed off customer and you don want get ripped off you want decent service not repeat not buy from this company the money saved not worth the ulcers you will get pass this word around your friends companies like this not deserve stay business let not give them out hard earned money discount micro systems powerhouse and gateway all have given excellent service and speed the past highly recommend them anyone mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet sdnet bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	fonts have friend with original laserjet the nameplate does not specify number but since the followed later one assumes that has his problem tax program which requires cpi font print the forms properly this unit came market versions the plus version supported dowloadable fonts you can guess which one friend has the plain not the plus the printer does though have slot and has small selction cartridges including cpi but none with cpi font can anyone suggest source for cartridge with cpi font alternatively upgrade the plus version available reasonable cost any suggestions would welcome thanks winqwk seattle rain festival jan dec canada remote systems toronto ontario
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	motherboard advice needed article jethro corp sun com lonewolf muse corp sun com peter pak writes does anyone have source for motherboards been calling around the local stores and everyone appears only stocking the motherboards how difficult modify motherboard run mhz simple replacing the system clock with slower part thanks peter this normally the case but make sure you get board with plug oscillator you will screw your warranty you start solder the board mark mark physchem
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help second install article apr dosgate mike tancsa mike tancsa canrem com writes considering adding system equipped with meg maxtor second maxtor meg assume this will not problem however remember reading somewhere that this you needed reformat your original drive this true why drive full and really don like the idea installing everything from floppy please mail post the group mike mike tancsa internet mdtancsa watarts uwaterloo waterloo ontario mike tancsa canrem com canada rosereader entered crs canada remote systems toronto ontario you not need reformat your old mark mark physchem
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wincim baud article slc uucp kaw slc uucp workman writes had similar problems downloading using wincim discovered that disabled data compression modem works fine what string did you use this john anderson texas instruments inc internet anderson dseg com box compuserve plano fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	info the power ibm apple motorola begin repost ibm apple motorola ready unwrap powerpc processor the wraps will come off the powerpc processor this week motorola corp ibm and apple computer inc detail the results their yearlong effort this first series powerpc processors will bit processor with bit memory interface much like intel corp pentium with the capability performing many three instructions per clock cycle according sources familiar with the chip motorola expected release the chip volume year end two configurations running and mhz with performance and specint marks respectively sources said floating point performance for the volt processors will even better their specfp performance will and respectively the scaled down version the power chip developed ibm for its workstations will also include single buffered cache the chip with protocols support motorola bit multiprocessor bus built the chip which being designed initially support the micro channel architecture bus independent vendors could develop powerpc based systems using number different architectures including isa eisa sun microsystems inc bus design one source noted according sources familiar with the development effort motorola has been extremely successful developing the powerpc inexpensive architecture despite complex design made more than million transistors using micron technology initial chips are expected priced from only slightly higher than intel corp processors but could sold profitably for less than one source said end repost
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi david cat uucp dave write are talking about scsi device scsi controller are talking about scsi controller that had chip upgrade using the same chip that scsi controller board are talking about scsi device scsi controller here rewrite mac info sheet scsi section scsi only external device expansion interface common both mac and ibm allows the use any device hard drive printer scanner nubus card expansion mac plus only some monitors and rom normal asynchronous scsi mhz fast synchronous scsi mhz difference between these modes mainly the software drivers main problem there are lot external devices which are internal terminated which causes problems for more then two devises off the scsi port scsi chain supposed terminated only the begining and end any other set causes problems for either mac ibm scsi bit devices per scsi controller asynchronous ave and synchronous max transfers bit scsi often mistaken for fast version scsi see scsi for details scsi fully scsi compliant scsi mode devices per scsi controller bit scsi implimented very fast scsi since can run using scsi hardware and software drivers which limits devices which results sometimes being mistakenly consitered part scsi bit and bit scsi require different ports electronics and scsi software drivers from scsi which makes them more expensive than other scsi interfaces bit scsi seems run only synchronous mode hence term wide and fast scsi transfer speeds are with burst bit with burst bit and with burst bit bit scsi the biggest headache due the fact that the only scsi that know that can pump scsi speeds through scsi devices and software controlers its main implimentation the mac though you see adds for scsi maximum throughput for pcs since bit scsi does not need all the hardware including electonics and software bit and bit scsi the cheepest the scsi interfaces just pop out the scsi electornics and pop bit scsi electronics some people consider bit where scsi really starts used one them but average though put with theoretical burst not scsi but bit scsi rule thumb scsin and over then some type scsi bit scsi can use part scsi electronics which further reduces its cost compared and bit scsi
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cpu fans article apr mfltd nmp mfltd nic percival writes just got mhz system and considering getting fan for the cpu the processor when running too hot touch think this fairly good idea long ago when did some electronics training read somewhere that the regions within chip that define junctions gates etc slowly diffuse over time and this increases with temperature hence hot chip goes off spec sooner has anyone out there got cpu fan there more than type you have remove the cpu from its scoket install the fan all cpu fans derive their power from spare drive power lines anyone had any trouble with cpu fans does anyone have any evidence that cpu fans are complete waste money how are these fans attached glue clips melted cheese roughly how much cooler will the cpu with fan opposed without advert read claims any info appreciated nic percival well that was piece cake micro focus newbury piece cake master radial slice baked ext confection coefficient relevance nmp mfltd key time zero who own fancard which slightly different beast long card that plugs into bit slot and contains two muffin fans requires extra cabling had that was experiencing some problems due heat the fancard made the system run cool enough that the problem longer appears supposed keep the internal temperature the range degrees fahrenheit according the maker tech advertisements the army used bunch these keep their pcs running desert storm can vouch for that however satisfied customer and have other connection with the maker the mail order house lyben hope this helps george george pandelios internet gjp sei cmu edu software engineering institute usenet sei gjp fifth avenue voice pittsburgh fax disclaimer these opinions are own and not reflect those the software engineering institute its sponsors customers clients affiliates carnegie mellon university fact any resemblence these opinions any individual living dead fictional real purely coincidental there
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scsi and ide what the difference jhereg iastate edu writes article apr dal tominatr dal writes stupid question from new ibm user going selling mac and getting gateway retching noises talk about out the frying pan and into the fire what cpu does this use need the info fro thesis are scsi drives faster than ide pretty sure scsi faster along with lot better compatability half right scsi slower than ide maximum scsi bit has faster burst rate than ide quarda scsi and bit are much faster than ide cyclone june
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors nanao article eskimo com johnn eskimo com john navitsky writes would like monitor that can handle high resolutions like envisioning using this monitor amiga amiga graphics board like the retina and sun like the sparcstation basically want high resolution versital monitor this monitor need not large meets the brief requirements outlined above been very happy with suns and could probably cope with smaller home interested anyone has more details high quality sony and hitatchi monitors since they seem used sun fairly often and look pretty good least haven seem them brought very often are mag and viewsonic give the new viewsonic good look have seen side side with old viewsonic mag nanao not the trinitron one and sony oem which does have trinitron tube the new viewsonic beat all them easily terms picture quality and think far superior the sun that staring now the place asks for would have bought had not just bought nanao week earlier keh cheng
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	modems and uarts article jester gun michael jester gun michael gerhards writes universal arithmetic receiver transmitter normally the older boards have uart board those chips generate irq for every char they received the uart has internal byte buffer with the right software installed generates irq every chars close universal asynchronous receiver transmitter necessary for higher throughput you ran dos you don need because dos runs only one task time and the whole cpu power could used for the transfer even you are running dos your cpu can handle the speed the interrupts you will still lose characters have one machine with external bps modem attached and can drive the serial port any faster than without losing characters michael michael jester gun michael gerhards preussenstrasse germany neuss voice rob robert schrack systems administrator ras ultb rit edu salesbook systems voice tobey village office park pittsford fax wrote the book sales force automation
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help wanted loading logitech scanman driver high memory having troubleloading logitech scanman driver latest version into high memory with the devicehigh command msdos gives invalid parameters message necessary change some the scanner driver parameters when loading high any help would appreciated ronel
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	any stb powergraph users out there that know about help trying view jpg files with mhz machine have stb powergraph graphics card with colors with meg ram have tried cview with windows extremely slow and dvpeg dvpeg doesn work even pick lot the modes that are supported powergraph says the manual doesn work when try view picture only buzzes anyone out there that can help give suggestions would really appreciate thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	modems and noisy lines chris crayton chris crayton ozonehole com wrote jcl this garbage modem doesn have any these hardware can jcl software implemented protocol the trick there software version mnp available from mtez and will often connect with other modems that are mnp compatible but the modem that you there also program called odyssey modem directory the simtel archives that emulates mnp and others too think but these were what was interested was getting lot garbage when called one number and mnp cleared completely ordinary modem fortunately the remote end had mnp modem tried mnp too but seemed lock the computer your mileage may vary haymore byu edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide low level format article apr organpipe uug arizona edu shenx helium gas uug arizona edu xiangxin shen writes article news cso uiuc edu mandel romulus ehs uiuc edu hector mandel writes accidentally tried low level format western digital caviar drive there public domain shareware utility available that will allow fix thanks expert this but pretty sure there way recover this ide drive has mapping information written directly drives when you low level format the information itself gone well don think you can get back unless you send back western digital and ask them refurbish for you jim well have different story recount attempted low level format disk about year ago when understood error contacted they told that hadn hurt the drive and that should just run fdisk and format was fine also understand that western digital bbs may have some low level formatting routines specifically available for ide drives you probably need talk them and get the straight scoop george george pandelios internet gjp sei cmu edu software engineering institute usenet sei gjp fifth avenue voice pittsburgh fax disclaimer these opinions are own and not reflect those the software engineering institute its sponsors customers clients affiliates carnegie mellon university fact any resemblence these opinions any individual living dead fictional real purely coincidental there
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	delayed write caches andreas kuehnel idler berlin wrote using norton cache which really nice but horrible incompatible some games won work streamer software won work with and windows doesn like all but when copying deleting lots small files only that surprising haven seen any incompatibilities with mine version the version that came with upgrade had some problems but symantec fixed those and haven seen anything wrong since not running windoze the way haymore byu edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help adding scsi drive can coexist with ide article apr physchem mark physchem mark jackson writes article apr oracle oracle com ebosco oracle com eric bosco writes have computer with seagate ide drive and controler built into the motherboard want add scsi drive quantum prodrive formatted have documentation all and need your help understand here the process adding such drive could you please tell right buy scsi contoler which one know adaptec good but they are kind expensive are there any good boards the region want compatible with and unix possible also have seen the net that there are scsi and scsi drives this true does the adapter need the same the drive what type drive the quantum have tried others but think that the adaptec best value for money connect the drive the adapter via scsi cable and the power cable have worry about the power supply think have watts and all powering are two floppies and the seagate drive dont think you can mix the two types drive unless you have one the scsi ide cards that available you will have turn your ide off this true was under the impression that people the net had both scsi and ide working together well that seems all there anythiing forgetting any help really appreciated lost eric ebosco oracle com mark mark physchem
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help ide drive installation problems having trouble with installing second ide drive promise ide caching controller the first drive conner and works fine the second drive conner currently unjumpered the slave drive the problem the slave drive recognized but reported back having free space disabling cache has made effect what else should check for krispy
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	fast what taking long article apr lehigh edu lehigh edu robert yung writes why going take year for fast become standard are there technical problems work out just bureaucratic slowdown thanks don even get hyped they are still accepting submissions from the members for various proposals how implement the standard you don seem realize that while bis was just extension which took years pass implement and finally sell reasonable price fast requires all new technology not just faster dsp chips etc achieve its performance wait until next spring for the final ratification and modems coming shortly after that bing bing zinc cchem berkeley edu university california berkeley
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dataport fax modem special for sale dataport internal fax modem the modem internal isa bit card just little longer than half card has bis for kbps data bps fax bis and mnp for error correction and data compression you can get error free links bps conventional phone line they will fall back any speed down bps and even disable compression and error correction necessary order connect with slower and older modems has buffered uart for better compatibility with multi tasking operating systems windows unix etc they use patented technology called optical line interface oli which reduces noise generated the modem assure the fastest and cleanest connection possible these modems come with lifetime warranty and free lifetime tech support and the call free too from they also include the lovely and talented quicklink for dos and the new quicklink for windows communications and fax software which will let you conveniently sent faxes from any dos windows application just printing the windows version will send faxes any font and can include graphics etc the dos version can fax graphics and limited set fonts believe that there are well any laser resident fonts asking for this modem plus utah tax this below the prices any other reputable manufacturer equivalent modem including zoom robotics etc and backed company that will never away this price will include delivery you live within miles downtown slc can also arrange shipping you can stop home pick you concerned about installing internal modem let know and can discuss arrangement for including installation you interested please let know this excellent modem excellent price they normally list for and retail for about installed one these last week and very nice you have questions about this has info number you can email and will attemp answer them the modem will the highest bidder get within the next week thanks pete
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	atari mono and vga arosborn oregon uoregon edu alan osborn writes article apr tdb max tdb max brante have anybody succeded converting atari monomchrome monitor into mono vga monitor please let know exactly how you did and what graphics card you used wish could help posted similar question about two weeks ago got response all asked locally friendly atari store was told that should possible but that they had idea how might done nor did they particularly care investigate here results far you have define the monitor lcd doesn really support analogue video input works but isn very linear the incoming sync pulses need inverting this best achieved with either cmos xor package transistor inverter you don know how don even contemplate only work standard vga mode having said that trying either find circuit which will act universal sync decoder want somethikng which basically only detects the leading sync pulse edge and doesn care about the polarity outputting the going pulses that the atari monitor requires there are reasons for doing this vga cards change their sync polarity depending which mode they herc emulation while mvga for example means don have put toggle switch the back the monitor order able run off both the atari and ibm currently have yes monitors sitting desk and want get that number down much possible being able use the atari monitor paper white vga will cut things down forget about atari colour can get down ultimately the best course action get multisync monitor but pressed for cash anyone else have wait alan brown dogbowl dogbox acme gen
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	trying find mail network desperately trying find based mail wide area network service the necessary network software establish one myself while aware there are various bbs and other similar services avalible like compuserve canada remote systems etc require fairly specific criteria approximate order importance they are the mail files news are read written locally and batched the network server continuous line connection note all users are remote and will use modems over conventional phone lines simple the users have for the system have very little computer knowledge have never heard unix and have very little interest learning essential that the client software completely pain free cheap would prefer not paying high connect fees established commercial network just can send large files between members the group hence addition would like the network server something small simple and inexpensive like there are only about people the group not huge network the capability for internet access for news mail internet style pwood math uwaterloo anyone knows system similar what describing even doesn sastisfy all criteria and don care where please please mail and tell about are not adverse making alterations existing system necessary thanks peter wood internet pwood math uwaterloo
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway too high price asked for opinions yesterday gateway machines all the mail received indicated that they were solid reliable machines and technical support was very good well gateway faxed price sheet just now seems the higher side but then again maybe not dell price for similar price whole lot more this decent deal please advise via email mhz desktop case sram cache dram simms expandable and epson diskette drives western digital ide dtr local bus ide interface ati ultra pro bus with vram and bit drivers crystalscan color monitor phoenix bios clock calendar bit isa slots with bit vesa local bus slots parallel and serial ports intel overdrive ready upgradeable pentium technology key anykey programmable keyboard dos windows microsoft mouse diagsoft plus one excel word paradox project etc all for nec fgx minitor upgrade would cost more please advise thanks vasudev vasudev murthy any opinions expressed are strictly murthy asl nec com own and have nothing with advanced switching lab nec america inc walnut hill lane irving
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway monitor problem again help once again someone else with gateway monitor problem anyone who can help please would much apprieciated thanks advance have local bus machine with the crystal scan inch monitor have meg loca memory the ati ultra pro the mach driver the newest release problem windows when use the mode get shadows down the sides the screens and very blurry type the corners the types the screen are all out focus gotten replacement video cards and replacement monitor none that has helped though could someone pleae help with this very frustruating problem thanks again josh smith live now make now always the most precious time reply now will never come again picard the inner light jlredd bach udel edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help ide drive installation problems article apr sunova ssc gov qwerty tunisia ssc gov kris schludermann writes having trouble with installing second ide drive promise ide caching controller the first drive conner and works fine the second drive conner currently unjumpered the slave drive the problem the slave drive recognized but reported back having free space disabling cache has made effect what else should check for krispy did you make the other drive master drive did you partition format
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how add another ide with stacker can somebody tell step step how add ide kalok existing ide maxtor with stacker and dos know how set the jumpers the slave and the settings for heads wpcom sectors etc also know that have some cmos settings and fdisk the problem what letter will the cmos give the new drive what will happen when stacker creates and swap can tell cmos make that stack will have and know this could faq readme somewhere but want hear from somebody who actually done thanks romy
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	everex cubes has anybody seen empty everex being sold want the cube not the computer inards will take standard size motherboards thanks mail please mark ashley disclaimer opinions not harris marka gcx ssd csd harris com the lost los angelino
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hint vlb isa eisa motherboard article news iastate edu schauf iastate edu brian schaufenbuel writes article xnfz nmti com korenek nmti com gary korenek writes believe that any eisa isa motherboard that uses the hint chipset limited bit eisa dma where real eisa dma bit the hint eisa dma has the ram addressing limitation isa for this reason would pass own one these hawk eisa isa and look ing replace for exactly this reason please double check this other words call the motherboard manufacturer and ask them the motherboard supports true bit eisa dma other than this limitation the motherboard works quite well using mine with dos windows and unix also with adaptec eisa scsi host adapter gary korenek korenek nmti com you are correct the motherboard manufacturer where usually buy boards says that they will have this problem fixed about two weeks brian schaufenbuel don see this problem with the chip set mistake see this something that was designed intentionally would seem that enhance the design from bit eisa dma would require update the chipset update the chipset may begat update the motherboard board design what saing the motherboard manufacturer seems passing this off simple fix mind the fix updated chipset from hint along with possible motherboard layout update this not simple were you would cautious about this you might look into the advanced integration research air eisa motherboard all slots are eisa isa capable the slots are bus capable the air people confirmed this board supports real bit eisa dma called them pentium capable less expensive than equivalent ami micronics eisa board look computer shopper april the zenon ads show the air mother board associate bought the air board and pleased with attempting get the local dealer trade out the hawk board for the air board model number air board with you can call motherboard warehouse for example for price phone included below air motherboard warehouse gary korenek korenek nmti com network management technology incorporated sugar land texas
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	format utilities maxitor bbs what the bbs number due some problems with ide drive formatted the maxitor now started give some errors some applications was told maxitor has utility called ide int their bbs anyone tried can some one tell what that bbs number better can find the file some ftp site perhaps someone can email thanks feng the opinions expressed are not necessarily those the university north carolina chapel hill the campus office for information technology the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	 what the difference between uart and uart thanks bugs without the would sometimes get extra characters the fifo this renders the fifo useless only get the
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	trident drivers for win apr spartan brocku tmc spartan brocku writes you can find the drivers wuarchive wustl edu the msdos windows sub directory think the files are called tvgawin zip and tvgawin zip those are the latest drivers available far know downloaded these files couple days ago and they appeared incompatible with this particular card none the svga drivers worked they probably for the newer and series jouni marttila kyl turku finland jmarttila abo jmarttila finabo abovax jmarttila jjmartti utu pgp key available via finger jmarttila abo
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	comparisons dlc amd intel thinking about buying new motherboard and cyrix dlc will upgrade from was wondering anybody has any facts they can fill anybody has one what you think about will also get cyrix math with have benchmarks for the two chips they look very good for the price anybody responds please send email because usually don check the mail very often but check reader daily thanks for your info and remember only respond you have legitimate comp laints praise not just cyrix amd bash know about what byte computer shopper computing and etc have said and that why considering the cyrix chip thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	upgrading all netters upgrade with motherboard will able use the old bits and pieces like graphics card and card etc thanks for you info sorry question some kind faq regards desmond lut
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	isa vlb xor eisa advice wanted article apr julian uwo rmitch irus rri uwo ross mitchell writes have choice now between basically the above system but with with isa and vlb with eisa and vlb and thus the non local bus version the ati card which better keeping mind that primarily interested the last two tasks the april issue magazine published benchmarks for the ati ultrapro running both vlb and eisa eisa vlb
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bios timer interrupts hello trying use the bios timer interrupts which occur every seconds times second time people response times psychology experiment and the response times are the order seconds there any way can get better precision than counting ticks can make the ticks occur more frequently trying this dos and would nice this could also work our old machines running dos know know don like them any more than you but this means requirement just possibility basically any information the bios tick scheme and the related inrterruots would appreciated well any information alternate ways improving accuracy email preferred planning posting this few boards and don read all them thanks joe
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help adding scsi drive can coexist with ide eric bosco ebosco oracle com wrote first all please edit your postings wading through lines quoted crud which people have already read makes people much less likely help you course you don want helped that your problem this true was under the impression that people the net had both scsi and ide working together not true you can get scsi and ide work together but there are restrictions least with the adaptec you must boot from the ide drive there way boot from the scsi drive you have both ide and scsi drives you must disable the scsi rom bios not sure about this though and you must also use some special drivers access the scsi drive hmm know that you have disable something related the scsi bios but not sure the rom itself back february someone asked about ide and scsi this question gets asked again and again the end this message included edited copy reply you might find interesting darryl okahata internet darrylo com disclaimer this message the author personal opinion and does not constitute the support opinion policy hewlett packard the little green men that have been following him all day worth get scsi over ide will there noticable decrease access time increase xfer rate for msdos applications isa based scsi and ide controllers generally have comparable throughput you might get slightly higher throughput with scsi disk but you also pay more for the disk and some cases you also pay much much more for good scsi controller note that good scsi controllers really show their power they used with good multitasking operating system like unix unfortunately neither msdos nor windows good multitasking operating system the performance advantage scsi controllers mostly wasted with these which leaves the advantage being able connect multiple devices the scsi bus the only advantage however note that you can expect pay premium for scsi devices you only going using msdos stick with ide cheaper and you have less headaches will virtually any scsi device chain into the controller for hard drive bernoulli box rom tape drive etc note the following true for msdos windows only who knows what the future holds for windows and unix generally you have find drivers for each scsi device which probably don exist unless you using one the better high performance scsi controllers these are typically bus mastering scsi controllers that cost around street prices and and drivers that allow you connect these controllers popular name brand scsi devices either come with the card can purchased for under list price examples such driver kits are adaptec scsi kit list this works only with adaptec scsi controllers corelscsi from the same people who make coreldraw list this driver kit will supposedly work with any scsi controller card that has aspi driver like the adaptec central point tools for dos supports number scsi tape drives the documentation lists tape drives unfortunately works only with adaptec controllers are there likely other problems incompatibilities with scsi controller and sound cards video accelerators and similar equipment yes you will run into problems you using high performance bus mastering scsi controller this doesn sound right doesn true though with one these controllers you probably have tweak your system get work with sound cards floppy controller based tape drives like the cms jumbo and windows know been and back getting scsi controller work with various hardware software thank god for tape backups you want copy adaptec hints and tips file send email these problems aren really the fault the scsi controller card the problems are really with the general hardware and software design the standards however adding bus mastering scsi card what brings these problems the surface and makes them visible scsi holds lot promise but you can run into lot compatibility problems you planning using only msdos windows stick with ide you want use windows unix you have make some hard decisions good scsi controller and more than one scsi hard disk will probably give you excellent performance the possible cost msdos compatibility say probably because while know this true with unix don know this really will true windows suspect that will but don know for sure
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	any comments gateway nomad looking getting laptop for work and was trying decide between the toshibas and gateway nomad the price about the same but the gateway has significantly better performance hard drive mhz mhz and much cheaper accessories extra batteries modem the concern have about gateway the durability and reliability does anyone out there have any experience with the gateway nomad thanks denis lambert denisl col com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dos dos need new mouse driver recently installed dos few machines and the users claim that when they use the mouse often the screen will blank and the machine will lock there are viruses they are not running any tsr the mouse logitec button anybody got any ideas thanks mark mark msstate edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	soundblaster irq and port settings pdb ipl jpl nasa gov paul bartholomew writes clip clip interesting would you care explain then how soundblaster pro card and printer card are sharing irq successfully assure you that they are both set irq and that have problem computer dtk ibm clone running dos derivative obviously please take note that the following not what exactly happens but slightly simplified explanation technically the irq line only means for the device printer adapter soundblaster modem hard disk signal the cpu that something happening here please take note how the cpu programmed handle this signal usually the operating system dos the interrupt vector used store the address the function that handles each interrupt now basic dos doesn care whether the printer reports that ready print some more stuff not simply ignores the interrupt when dos prints looks the lpt buffer there character there wait while and check again there not copy new character the lpt port since the irq ignored printer interrupt free for use for any other adapters this case the with any multitasking otherwise advanced this kind printing approach just doesn work more precisely wastes lot cpu cycles hence you can share the irq with lpt and you running unix whatnot another issue with the that only the digitized sound uses interrupts when the plays plain music the cpu simply tells what play until told otherwise with digitized sound the interrupt required notify the cpu when the output ends and new data needed you can however hook two more com ports one interrupt but use them only one time this because the interrupt handling routine same for both ports and can see from which port the data came from this course applies for some other devices like lpt well remember this was greatly simplified parts but think gives the general picture correctly enough cheers juha liukkonen aka jliukkon helsinki university helsinki dept lost souls trust know what doing sledge hammer
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors nanao johnn eskimo com john navitsky writes hello been following discussions monitors comp sys ibm hardware and noted that the nanao seems get very good reviews interested getting more information about nanao products how can get ahold nanao nanao call ask for catalog what list and street cost avail from third party buy copy computer shopper and take look one place with reasonable prices and good service cad warehouse sububurban cleveland ohio
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	problem with speed has ram and trident svga card sometimes feel runs very slowly especially when running windows planning buy ati graphic ultra next semester that all need get the problem solved ram chips too slow for machine faster ram chips make big difference use cad software computer well those grades good enough speed lot any one experienced the difference between isa bus and bus both with graphic accelerator scsi controller may not appropriate since may have replace hard disks well however sometimes have huge files computer does really worth use scsi interface can spend too much any help will appreciated thanks advance dennis dpang uafhp uark edu man hate the stupid text editor there any way can type article dos word processor and load the file into usenet thanks advance again
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	consumer warning midwest micro ohio posted almost the same bad experience with midwest micro but our news program only sent one paragraph out the middle addition the facts that the modems had ordered two wouldn work documented and the tech person had clue how should work also turned out that one the two modems they sent was clearly used but the techs thought that was standard practice and the modems made all three floppy drives quit working and cms tape drive start running away that they are incompetent one thing but that they sell used stuff new and won even apologize for another stay away from these crooks bob wilson wilson math wisc edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	jumper settings for ungermann bass pcnic ethernet card article apr ntg com dplatt ntg com dave platt writes the irq and interface select jumpers are pretty straightforward but don grok the settings also labelled through could somebody tell which settings these four jumpers correspond what addresses the pcnic also oemed ibm for while the only ethernet card know that doesn use addresses only has interrupts and shared memory the jumpers you see control bits the base address the shared memory can recall which and which but that easy determine with debug james vanbokkelen high north andover ftp software inc voice fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	consumer warning midwest micro ohio article usq mpr wybbs org ken wybbs org writes not sure the modem would work basic system but clearly does not work multi port system like mine since time worth more than the aggravation the cost the modem gave local charitable organization with description problem and ordered practical peripherals from connection for more have solid external modem built company know will support their users and sold company based personal experience will treat right there problem should have known better but but but how does buying external modem solve the problem wanting more than serial devices once and since the only supports two why are you blaming modem vendor for the problem don see how your experience could have been different with any internal modem les mikesell les chinet chi
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	pinout for standard mono vga monitor the subject line says all thanks max brante max tdb institutionen teknisk databehandling uppsala universitet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	check switches ibm this might seem bit odd how check the state dip switches the mother board ibm without using the bios thanx max brante max tdb institutionen teknisk databehandling uppsala universitet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	error beeps boot servicing machine and whenever the thing starts get beeps powerup does anyone know what error message that signifies don seem have any problem with the machine but the lady who using very concerned about don you just love computers preferr responses mail but read the net you can post here andrew acs micro computer network technical support university maryland baltimore county andrew hotelca tech umbc edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	vlb bus master problem article rkimball athena rkimball athena qualcomm com robert kimball writes specifically interested the ultrastor vlb scsi controller before shell out the bucks for this thing would like get the straight scoop from someone who knows does anyone have this controller any problems with had one and three different motherboards didn work with and some cases dos sent mine back but understanding that some systems such micronics motherboards necessary shut off the internal cache the have work yet hear from someone running any motherboard with without shutting off the cache you get one advise very sure you can return first ralph
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	atari sell trade for considering selling atari and purchasing ibm compa tible need know what kind money trade can expect get for the atari before bother about start graduate school and that means about poor there price list for used synthesizers rec music makers synth but equivalent list for computers this system tailor made for midi musician details follow atari tos ram floppy drive supradrive external scsi drive months old atari monochrome monitor generic baud external modem software all software registered and comes with manuals passport master tracks pro version sequencing software copyist professional scoring software first word word processor not the version megamax laser version programming language vip professional spreadsheet package low tech lotus clone partner desk accessory with integrated calendar cardfile etc migraph easy draw early pre postscript release neodesk improved desktop for atari universal iii improved file selector for atari miscellaneous software including uniterm communications software will consider all prices above also willing trade the atari system for quality including lap tops own some hardware complete system may not necessary john ladasky ladasky netcom com great composers not borrow talking about music like they steal john ladasky dancing about architecture quote stolen from stravinsky who elvis costello laurie stole from statement made anderson frank zappa pablo picasso about painting who stole from property theft groucho man charity his heart what has with music confucius
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	comtrade has anyone had experience buying computers from comtrade when asked about got one reply describing problems returning defective hard drive should expect any problems from comtrade thanks carlisle thacker miami
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	motherboard advice needed maybe should have been clearer have intel that would like use put together system however all the motherboards that the local vendors are now selling are running either mhz guess can cross fingers and hope the cpu runs that speed think take mark advice and see any the boards have socketed oscillator and head down the local electronics store thanks for the info
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	questions installing pas went out and bought the pas yesterday and installed into gateway followed the instructions and set the side with dma and irq the default and then the pas side with dma and irq question how should configure for mpu compatibility the manual and installation program recommended irq but machine configured cascade irq can still use irq should choose different one right now have the mpu emulation mode turned off actually what this cascade irq business related questions other bus machine owners was told that only dma are bit dmas and are bit dmas now what about bit bus mastering dmas which dma channel used the bus extension bit dma yet another question after installing pas links golf game will hang the machine when select mode and run but works with adlib mode civilization however works fine least far any body knows what might have done wrong thanks obviously newbie john
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cpu fans jim johnson abcd houghton jim johnson writes speaking cpu fans many use clips make sure you use heat sink grease heat transfering tape you will have wasted your money these cpu fans also have heat sinks you recommend using both the same chip heat sink sandwiched between cpu and fan are just talking about cpu fan blowing directly the cpu chip can see how heat sink grease necessary even desireable edward mcclanahan edm wrs com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	has anyone heard syntrex friend recently bought used the brand syntrex didn come with any documentation and trying find some information about the computer the question has anyone heard you know anything about these please drop note thank you diana sartorius dsartori washington edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	 would someone willing explain the mhz not more popular than would think would just fast not faster than the mhz for certian applications plus mhz motherboard would seem better you had any plans upgrading the chip the future must missing something since everyone buying the many adds don even mention the thanks lot matt
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	modem problem dialtone dudek acsu buffalo edu the cybard writes have isa compatible insight with infotel internal fax data modem with quicklinkii for windows when first put the modem pulled phone out the jack another room and ran phone line extension surge protector and then computer the modem worked fine then split the line from the jack the other room ran the line into room into the surge protector and computer then got regular phone and plugged that into the phone jack the modem now when try use the modem quicklinkii says dialtone the phone plugged into the back the computer works fine tried unplugging the phone but still dice that the phone line was split too many times don understand how this could problem since the phone worked fine please note none the software hardware parameters were changed only the phone line itself new modem faulty what can try swapping the phone cables the back the modem the golden gryphon gryphon openage com the crown jewel the american prison system president bill clinton living the white house openage the premier sco unix integrator the washington area
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	comments texel rom drive sought anyone have any recommendations warnings about the texel rom drive about any its competitors looking for rom drive for connection pas scsi port hal brand llnl brand addvax llnl gov
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how well the voicemail modems work seen alot ads for voicemail fax data modems this would way cool they work well don want have someone call and get the connecting sound fax machine they work very well has anyone out there played with one please tell what brand and other info like that thanks kent
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help adding scsi drive couple points article apr physchem mark physchem mark jackson writes article apr oracle oracle com ebosco oracle com eric bosco writes buy scsi contoler which one know adaptec good but they are kind expensive are there any good boards the region want compatible with and unix possible also have seen the net that there are scsi and scsi drives this true does the adapter need the same the drive what type drive the quantum have tried others but think that the adaptec best value for money have adaptec and very happy with connect the drive the adapter via scsi cable and the power cable have worry about the power supply think have watts and all powering are two floppies and the seagate drive dont think you can mix the two types drive unless you have one the scsi ide cards that available you will have turn your ide off not have both ide and adaptec the same box and can use both disks the same time ide scsi disk copy well that seems all there anythiing forgetting any help really appreciated lost eric ebosco oracle com mark mark physchem well one statement and one correction guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns tel hoskyns guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help adding scsi drive can coexist with ide article apr oracle oracle com ebosco oracle com eric bosco writes article apr physchem mark physchem mark jackson writes article apr oracle oracle com ebosco oracle com eric bosco writes dont think you can mix the two types drive unless you have one the scsi ide cards that available you will have turn your ide off this true was under the impression that people the net had both scsi and ide working together running both home the cumpter turned off right now but did boot bsd from ide drive most the system scsi drive using adaptec and name cheapo ide card well that seems all there anythiing forgetting any help really appreciated lost eric ebosco oracle com mark mark physchem guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns tel hoskyns guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hercules vlb couple months ago tried out hercules graphite card pretty nice board fairly fast and seemed quite compatible even seemed handle the svga modes have whined about here occasion the time was just buying vlb system after checking out the card sent back wanted vlb card and purchased fahrenheit vlb card this card fairly fast will refresh but not compatible with roms the svga thing think have merely conjectured that the cause old graphics board being able run higher resolution with those programs than the modern boards have tried have not gotten straight answer out anybody the monitor using with magnavox which also tops out its really pretty good match but that for wife just purchased viewsonic for myself and looking for graphics card drive want refresh and would really like handle roms tried the orchid which did neither those things though robert wietek did say that the was possible modifed the driver data base thoughts back hercules they were supposed coming out with vlb version the graphite around the end march have heard precisely zero about since then does anyone know the card was actually released and what capabilities and price has any info would most appreciated geoff sherwood
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	vlb bus master problem rbrown spchp bbn com ralph brown writes yet hear from someone running any motherboard with without shutting off the cache consider heard ami enterprise iii eisa vlb ultrastor edward mcclanahan edm wrs com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	anybody heard asus brand motherboard all has anyone heard this board does anyone know will work with bsd linux local vendor has this says brand please mail possible thanks david munoz munoz bcstec boeing com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	adding second ide drive just bought western digital caviar ide drive and want add system which already has ide drive the controller says supports hard drives but when plug the cables the bios setup and try start the system pauses and then get invalid drive error message the system boots but cannot access the new hard drive there are jumpers each drive that must set for both work the drivemust set the master drive and must set the slave drive the actual settings should info with the drives available from western digital
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway flash bios upgrade article apr utxvms utexas edu dcoleman utxvms utexas edu daniel coleman writes gateway has released new flash bios update for their local bus systems because such nice person uploaded them wuarchive wustl edu look for glb exe the msdos uploads section enjoy also noticed this was out the readme that comes with doesn tell you squat except warn you that bad things may happen anyone have any idea what these can for terms say performance tim
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scsi dos adding drive does anyone know there are any problems possible adding third hard drive scsi dos currently have with future domain scsi board and maxtor scsi drives installed they work great haven had any problems well now want more disk space and went out and got another larger scsi hard disk thinking all had was add the chain pin ribbon that has connectors and run the fdisk program format initialize the disk that didn happen when the boots the scsi prom shoots back the devices that are attached the board target target target all three disks are seen when run the dos fdisk program format the disk choose select another disk option dos and voila not there the first two disks show problem but the third disk where found argh ideas anyone thanks advance mike migkiller figueroa sun microsystems computer corporation mail maf corp sun com work sierra hotel and check six falcon
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors nanao article kehchengc netcom com kehcheng netcom com keh cheng chu writes article eskimo com johnn eskimo com john navitsky writes would like monitor that can handle high resolutions like want high resolution versital monitor this monitor need not large meets the brief requirements outlined above been very happy with suns and could probably cope with smaller home interested anyone has more details high quality sony and hitatchi monitors since they seem used sun fairly often and look pretty good least haven seem them brought very often are mag and viewsonic give the new viewsonic good look have seen side side with old viewsonic mag nanao not the trinitron one and sony oem which does have trinitron tube the new viewsonic beat all them easily terms picture quality and think far superior the sun that staring now the place asks for would have bought had not just bought nanao week earlier keh cheng what tube does the viewsonic use does support been looking philips which uses sony trinitron tube has digital controls supports and has dot pitch can found for under brian schaufenbuel brian schaufenbuel there art which one government sooner learns helser halsted than that draining money from the pockets the ames people especially college students adam smith
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cardinal bus graphics card does anyone have any experience familiar with the cardinal bus graphics card would appreciate knowing what you think its capabilities thanks keith
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ibm colordisplay for have one these monitors appears function but unhookable anything standard cga ega vga will plug but gives fuzzy diagonal noise also have graphics board that apparently graphic board double card with bit bus connectors and pin female connector with picture monitor tried plugging these two into standard avail how can one connect these the monitor seems relatively high quality curious any special drivers and setup needed can locate any jumpers the card
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway zeos compare think buying new computer through the mail order looking the gateway systen and the zeos system which better terms value price ungrade service because canada wonder can have the same level service the states thank you for any advice thomas
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	magitronic bbs found the dtk customer support bbs anyone know magitronic run one too hands all those that have possibly useful cards made either manufacturer and docs drivers please email directly you happen have number lee lee tosspot com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	linear mode have heard about linear mode for the which the video memory linearly accesibly instead the usual pages does anyone know more about this how can enable and what address the video memory mapped mostert stellenbosch rsa mostert sun
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway flash bios upgrade daniel coleman dcoleman utxvms utexas edu wrote gateway has released new flash bios update for their local bus systems because such nice person uploaded them wuarchive wustl edu look for glb exe the msdos uploads section enjoy blindly installed and haven had any problems noticed any differences yet note that did not backup previous bios you can with the tool that they ship rob live the edge laddish robert laddish hewlett packard santa rosa telnet mail stop usr robl com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors article hvd gazette bcm tmc edu tso cephalo neusc bcm tmc edu dan writes article pisw mcgill gerardis mcgill the gif emporium writes nec now also available the nec fge only difference accucolor any experiences opinions from people who have used the nec would appreciated since want get one right after exams are all done about week from now have and think great haven seen the nanao can compare but the image very sharp and the color contrast extremely good used other trinitron monitors sun color monitors which trinitron and think the least good perhaps brighter and has none these silly horizontal lines running across btw could wrong but thought that the fge slower well missing accucolor may not able handle the way the can believe mag said fge can cheers dan div neuroscience baylor college medicine baylor plaza houston tso cephalo neusc bcm tmc edu newsgrazer nextstep news reader posting uqr fuo eqm vqe rye fye vqe fuc vel fet fqe fyo vys vea vye vat fen fet fen vxi vye fyi vyg vat vqo ven vae sdx ryn ryb vtn
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitor with rgb sync vga yes but what monitor only has bnc and expecting get composite sync signal the green there ought little black box that takes the vga signalling which has horiz vert and composite sync different pins plus the and pairs and merges the green and composite sync together the output all analog far know can build this with amps but don think can get the shielding done well enough handle the frequencies involved without lots shadows and junk the screen does anyone know vga rgb composite sync green converter paul vixie dec network systems lab palo alto california usa don rebel conformist vixie dec com decwrl vixie they the same thing anyway find paul vix com vixie paul your own path and stay
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how hot should the cpu kushmer bnlux bnl gov christopher kushmerick writes how hot should the cpu machine currently gets hot that can not hold finger for more than keep big fan blowing but considering using heat sink any advice don hold your finger when cooking with use very small pan and sure not spill liquids the components you not plan cook with there are number small cooling fans designed mount the chip and plug into your power supply look consumer shoppers now only some innovative person could design and produce heat sink which could used keep coffee warm why might even buy pentium
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	date stuck with your date time problems you might have problem with the dallas clock chip making possibly bad assumption that your system has clock chip and that the standard dallas clock chip always look the battery and the clock chip when such things wrong least the first course action mel white data services city garland texas mel white dragon tworaven lonestar org two ravens bbs asp member bbs fidonet your window the world mbas listserv tworaven lonestar org
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hercules vlb article apr adobe com sherwood adobe com geoffrey sherwood writes that for wife just purchased viewsonic for myself and looking for graphics card drive want refresh and would really like handle roms tried the orchid which did neither those things though robert wietek did say that the was possible modifed the driver data base thoughts back hercules they were supposed coming out with vlb version the graphite around the end march have heard precisely zero about since then does anyone know the card was actually released and what capabilities and price has hmm your rom program must using some oddball vga modes think they are trying get out the end this month when released though limited quantities think they have quite back order right now the megs version will come out bit later since you have viewsonic think has khz horizontal frequency right you gonna love the megs version can can also mil and bit too bad don have such high bandwidth monitor like yours most those modes need khz monitor otherwise you have use lower refresh rate you want more info about the coming graphite you should the ibm hardware section compuserve ibmhw the video sig there several hercules reps there that are very helpful stephen lau elec engineering univ hawaii don have own account until grad school starts autumn death synthesis gus
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	promise techhnology caching ide controller article dove nist gov livigni bldrdoc gov david livigni writes looking for help just the right place does anyone have experience with the promise technology caching ide controller just ordered one with installed and have few questions easy use does need any kind tsr completely transparent the system board that won have change the bios configuration yes easy use just like ordinary controller you don have change the bios config transparent the ide drive will work with any drive does have configured explicity for the type drive installed transparent works with any drive you change the drive you only need change the bios config usual will work with dual drive system master and slave yes problem with will need smartdrive dos buffers that depends you will get little better performance you use smartdrive and buffers addition that because access the card through the isa bus slower than access system ram don use smartdrive myself but have few buffers the promise technology controller good one any information would greatly appreciated thanks david livigni livigni bldrdoc gov anything stated here opinion only rule the great when people you greatly admire appear thinking deep thoughts they probably are thinking about lunch stig
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	phone number for mitsumi trying get touch with mitsumi anyone have their number frank pikelner technical assistant department computer science york university toronto canada internet frank yorku
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ultrastor ultrascsi any body has experience with the ultrastor ultrascsi driver package also need the phone number for ultrastor not the book and cannot find them the company listing computer shopper thanks advance tony kwong
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	info motherboard warehouse can anyone share their experiences good bad with tempe vendor named motherboard warehouse considering purchasing one their boards one the selling points their day full money back guarantee thanks advance dave masten beta lanl gov
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help adding scsi drive can coexist with ide article apr oracle oracle com ebosco oracle com eric bosco writes dont think you can mix the two types drive unless you have one the scsi ide cards that available you will have turn your ide off this true was under the impression that people the net had both scsi and ide working together have had scsi and ide drive working together for some years now scsi supposedly pretty transparent other types drives esdi rll ide etc but oftentimes you need get the correct drivers get work with odd environments for information purposes had card drive and maxtor drive with generic ide controller running together have also had the same scsi setup work combination with rll drive the drive
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help need mac modem port way serial port cable trying connect mac modem port way serial port can someone provide with wiring diagram for null modem lead for this setup please use email since news feed bit quirky thanks advance sean gordon sean gordon dundee ncr com include stdio ncr ltd long main for tel for printf fax for
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cpu fans nmp mfltd nic percival wrote just got mhz system and considering getting fan for the cpu the processor when running too hot touch think this stuff deleted about week old and custom built and for using the power and cooling cpu cooler this one has precision ball bearings the motor has pretty substantial heat sink happened fail would still probably dissipate more heat than the bare chip attaches with peel off adhesive this full size case the fan has gravity its favor would little nervous about finding the fan the bottom tower case happened let all the cpu fans that know are powered from drive cable there are other board type fans which are isa boards with couple fans mounted them they are powered the slot don know how effective they are maybe someone else could comment the cpu cool enough touch with the pcp unit connection has them for next day delivery the cord you don have spare lead off the power supply pcp make the best power supplies available imho channel cambridge
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	problems with parallel writing program that uses the parallel port problem that need generate interrupt when the ack line pulsed can get this occur once but unable generate succesive interrupts can someone suggest how may resolve this problem thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	canon canada would someone please leave the full address for canon canada thank you via uci net amiga uucp apapouts lotds uucp
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	motherboard manufacturer what this slot for bought the net here mini tower system works fine but have docs the motherboard does anyone know who manufacturer named wpi that the only marking the board that not related chip connector name says wpi also this board has connector the other end the motherboard looks like this batt socket for math coprocessor chip about here signs are the isa slots jumpers for turbo etc are where marked signs are banks simm sockets these connectors are the mystery connectors what this connector this place plug extra memory board seen thatr mentioned some motherboard docs some allow meg card and meg simms this what for phil phil hunt wherever you there you are howtek inc internet phil howtek com uucp decvax harvard howtek phil
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	new windows drivers for cirrus graphic cards have uploaded the most recent windows drivers for the cirrus chip based display cards the uploads directory ftp cica indiana edu file zip they very recent downloaded them from the cirrus bbs last night you are unable get them there email and maybe can upload them some other sites well have local bus based card bitblaster from micron but think the drivers work with isa cards least includes drivers for them found the new drivers significant improvement over the version improving graphic winmarks about million although this could the result intentional benchmark cheating cirrus part but don think from steve gibson columnist for info world graphic card comparisons also found the cica ftp site under the name winadv zip extracted the following for the sake comparison wintach winbn word sprsht cad paint overall steve system vlb ati graphics ultra pro system vlb bitblaster its viper but think its hell deal about third the cost the ati card and when compared the other cards included gibson review micron system owner would interested hear your opinions the dtc local bus disk controller system came with maxtor drive and first was only giving disk winmarks about now this about good gets can get norton sysinfo disk reading because the contoller intercepts the calls least that was what the program said oliver weatherbee oliver earthview
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	micron computer owners please read have uploaded the most recent windows drivers for the cirrus chip based display cards the uploads directory ftp cica indiana edu file zip they very recent downloaded them from the cirrus bbs last night you are unable get them there email and maybe can upload them some other sites well have local bus based card bitblaster from micron but think the drivers work with isa cards least includes drivers for them found the new drivers significant improvement over the version improving graphic winmarks about million although this could the result intentional benchmark cheating cirrus part but don think from steve gibson columnist for info world graphic card comparisons also found the cica ftp site under the name winadv zip extracted the following for the sake comparison wintach winbn word sprsht cad paint overall steve system vlb ati graphics ultra pro system vlb bitblaster its viper but think its hell deal about third the cost the ati card and when compared the other cards included gibson review micron system owner would interested hear your opinions the dtc local bus disk controller system came with maxtor drive and first was only giving disk winmarks about now this about good gets can get norton sysinfo disk reading because the contoller intercepts the calls least that was what the program said oliver weatherbee oliver earthview
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors nanao use nanao multisync and switch between windows and sparc display works quite well these resolutions michael busby unix system support system engineer design environment automation compaq computer corporation internet mcb compaq com box uunet uunet cpqhou michaelb houston texas usa phone armadillos texas speed bumps views opinions are mine alone
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	com card shows com with com address and irq have internal modem that configure com with irq but when insert that card into dos shows com with irq and com address when get into debug and dump the data shows the address belonging com even though the modem should com now know the modem working correctly since have tested different and shows correctly com irq make work the dos have configure the modem com irq but though have comm program that allows that the fax program that came with the modem does not work anyway would like the computer display the modem set com did run few diagnostic programs and they did not help all few displayed the modem com and others displayed being com not using windows this just dos problem any help pointers appreciated for various reasons must have this modem work com thus switching com ports not answer last time posted this did not get any dos specific answer this time have included all the specific information please help avinash chopde avinash acm org avinash chopde avinash acm org avinash genesis nred
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	new gig scsi rpm drives ratings noticed recent proliferation gig scsi drives particular the fujitsu and the micropolis there also the maxtor lxt rpm gig drive they are all quite cheap and have nice year warranties questions are there catch which one better what type scsi these drives use the service generally better for one these manufacturers are prices likely down soon for any reason thanks michael taylor
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dos article mosque huji dny huji danny halamish writes well installed dos three different systems with and without stacker friend installed two other systems both with stacker not single problem except perhaps some minor bugs with config sys menus right know helped install dos about computers now mine included one bought the stacker doublespace converter and worked fine rather sent the coupon for the converter other cases run the doublespace installation without problem when compressing new drive compressing free space whatever else seems work for ofcourse did not repeat not run any program called install setup very sophisticated auto configuring setup installation program that will think for you and what you never wanted but couldn stop from doing well ran the normal setup thing and worked fine for whatever that worth also dblspace crap writes about slower than stacker reads about slower and compresses about less all tests were made the same computer with the same disk cache and the same big files were used couldn agree more don miss the speed still faster than normal disk read would for the less compression sacrificed that favor the convenience having the dblspace bin load before anything else with stacker any changes your config sys autoexec bat meant rebooting twice could update those personally waiting for stacker come out and implement those hooks and stuff plus the defrag that comes with dos okay but much prefer compress from tools for sheer bells and whistles plus defrag sooooo sloooow dblspace drive but dos quite good reformat disks honestly don understand why you had this ditto koberg
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help needed installing ide greetings novice messing comp hardware original ide western digital which came with the system when bought and just got ide maxtor that wanted add slave drive did change the jumper settings maxtor configure slave drv but didn change anything western dig since didn have any doc and predicted just beeped and gave error message about hdd controller had take off install only any help this matter would much appreciated before trashed thankx much handy trisakti mizzou missouri edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scsi ide the bottom line which would you choose and why like lots people really like increase data transfer rate from the hard drive right now have ide drive seagate and standard ide controller card isa currently thinking about adding another the range and thinking hard about buying scsi drive scsi for the future benefit believe getting something like sec transfer right now according how would this number compare bought the state the art scsi card for isa and the state the art scsi hard drive the best system could hope for obviously money factors into this choice well any other but what would you want use your isa system and how much would cost along those lines what kind transfer rate could see with ide were buy the top the line ide caching controller for and how much would cost thanks for any comments randy
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	floptical drives anyone just curious why floptical drives never seemed catch remember those disks that look and feel like floppies these drives are scsi devices and can read and write both and disks sounds one great product for the market are the prices really that unaffordable compared roms which are currently not rewritable know about the new rewritable cds and expect sony develop the first mds for the computer question why isn there any substantial interest developing the flopticals just thought kin chan sparrow cmu edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help promplem with panasonic printer article apr vill edu vill edu dharmesh chovatia writes have panasonic just inherited with documentation which giving problem that cant resolve this the you talking about there too assume you just forgot the the paper out light refuses out this light also the power light not blinking just means that the power turned you look the panel should read power paper out right starts blink when ever turn the power which beeps don know why would this unless you out paper that does allow line with green light lit simultanously the red paper out light also remains lit but does not blink when you power the printer assuming does have paper the red power light which when flashing doubles paper out should light and few seconds later the green online light should come hope this helps jim include std disclaimer ial internet jim ial mythical com graham ieee org icbm amateur radio ial zbb walton beach amtor selcal nial mail for information about kamterm host mode for kantronics tncs
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scan model have recently picked page scanner the name scan model the software for was made for per windows windows and will not work with the newwer windows does any one out there kow were could find the company that made this beast copyrights say and the name gms division dest does anyone know these companies still exist and they they have email address anyone knows freeware shareware programme that able access this scanner thanks advance and please email this group scrolls way too quickly akasacou alfred ccs carleton aka alexander kasacous master public administration programme carleton university the opinions expressed above are mine like anyone else would admit them
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted hard drive buy trade more greetings looking upgrade hard drive much bigger one since find myself kinda cramped space althuogh have never filled would like the extra comfort megs anyone would like sell trade newish meg bigger hard drive for straight and with trade please mail back johng matt ksu ksu edu with offer would also sell hard drive for about you really want western digital ide other than that not sure what the transfer rate but pretty fast faster than roommates teac drive have addstor running now and have had for about months have never had problem with and would guarantee works upon deliveree thanks john would love maxtor hard drive
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted motherboard are there anyone who wants sell used motherboard you have one please let know the price and the specification also interested buying trident vga card meg park
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	isa vlb xor eisa advice wanted thu apr gmt glen osterhout glen tegra com wrote article apr julian uwo rmitch irus rri uwo ross mitchell writes have choice now between basically the above system but with with isa and vlb with eisa and vlb and thus the non local bus version the ati card which better keeping mind that primarily interested the last two tasks the april issue magazine published benchmarks for the ati ultrapro running both vlb and eisa eisa vlb this wightened speed avarage for many windows tasks the original poster ross mitchell was primary intersted manipulating large images which implies moving lot data from memory the card does anyone have the benchmarks this particular task penio penev internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	numbers ethernet cards article apr uvm edu djohnson moose uvm edu writes possible through either pin configuration through software programming change the numbers ethernet card the ethernet card doesn use the number bits usually uses the ethernet address bits usually have never run across ethernet controller that cannot programmed use address that not assigned decnet requires this feature however that said there reason ever change the ethernet address they are globally unique the first three bytes being assigned the manufacturer the ieee and the last three the manufacturer russ nelson crynwr com what canst thou say crynwr software crynwr software sells packet driver support grant voice lpf member ask about potsdam fax the harm software patents
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what about dell ariel design austin insight royal computers heard about comtrade gateway and various others what about your impressions dealings with dell ariel design austin insight royal and computers responses mail are preferred because they reduce usenet bandwidth will summarize the responses with another posting week blake buhlig colorado state university longs lance colostate edu electrical computer engineering
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help advic humble response letter scott braley written gsb upgrade would probably cost about about gsb coprocessors accelerator cards would cost least that much tis true just saw add for motherboards for have seen whole systems complete with case power supply keyboard floppy and mono card monitor going for was man all and all shall not look upon his like again blue wave qwk the ozone hole bbs private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions inquiries postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how null modem humble response letter gordon lang written interrested the extrodinarily simple concept the null modem cable actually have idea don count that last statement what asking what pins does use what are specifications just want solder one myself instead buying one don even know what port used you may want save yourself the trouble and radio shack they have null modem adapter which pin connector that swaps the necessary pins allow two machines communicate these are lot easier than soldering the connections yourself and usually bit more reliable people for the eating tasty animals blue wave qwk the ozone hole bbs private bulletin board service full service nodes usrobotics bps gigs files skydive new orleans rime network mail hub usenet newsgroups please route all questions inquiries postmaster ozonehole com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	questions installing pas thu apr gmt john ngai ngai nova bellcore com wrote went out and bought the pas yesterday and installed into gateway followed the instructions and set the side with dma and irq what pas any articles reviews describing penio penev internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	will ram work wanting upgrade from and are looking cheap quote from someone offering motherboard with ram will probably sell old board off somewhere now have meg ram which consists module simms running nanoseconds would encounter problems with the pointed out areas throwing these from one computer the other any comments gratefully mail preferred appreciated brett paterson not dyslexic email giaec monash edu leongatha victoria australia
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	which high performance vlb video card the max vesa video controller cirus logic chipset ram bit color does xfree support this card markfried please post email
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	diamond products boycot diamond video cards stealth viper speedstar etc may have excellent specifications and the windows drivers that come with them might make windows blindingly fast but you considering buying system with view using run unix linux bsd etc some other special software there good chance that will not work with the diamond cards this due diamond propriety attitude hardware impossible get free information from them about their chips specifically their dot clocks without paying and signing non disclosure agreements this made impossible for the free software foundation provide windows compatibility with these cards diamond didn want divulge programming neccessities far know only diamond has this propriety info mark
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	diamond products boycot fri apr gmt markfried fellensiek ins mdw monash edu wrote you considering buying system with view using run unix linux bsd etc some other special software there good chance that will not work with the diamond cards this due diamond propriety attitude hardware impossible get free information from them about their chips specifically their dot clocks without paying and signing non disclosure agreements this made impossible for the free software foundation provide windows compatibility with these cards diamond didn want divulge programming neccessities considering the above and some postings about diamond bad attitute towars customers ordered and actixge vlb card will arive these days penio penev internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scsi dos adding drive article jethro corp sun com maf corp sun com mike figueroa writes does anyone know there are any problems possible adding third hard drive scsi dos currently have with future domain scsi board and maxtor scsi drives installed they work great haven had any problems well now want more disk space and went out and got another larger scsi hard disk thinking all had was add the chain pin ribbon that has connectors and run the fdisk program format initialize the disk that didn happen when the boots the scsi prom shoots back the devices that are attached the board target target target all three disks are seen when run the dos fdisk program format the disk choose select another disk option dos and voila not there the first two disks show problem but the third disk where found argh ideas anyone thanks advance have got adaptec scsi card that comes with its own version fdisk the problem with dos that will only see two hard disks any more need done device drivers mark mark physchem
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	chaining ide drives article badry cab badry ualberta badry jason theodore writes trying set conner and quantum drive have the conner set the master and the quantum set the slave doesn work the other way around able access both drives boot from floppy but the drives will not boot themselves running msdos and have the conner partitioned primary dos and formatted with system files have tried all different types setups and even changed ide controller cards boot from floppy everything works great except the booting part the system doesn report error message anything just hangs there does anyone have any suggestions has somebody else run into similar problem was thinking that might have update the bios one the drives this possible any suggestions answers would greatly appreciated please reply jason badry badry ualberta make sure that the hard disk you want boot from set active using the fdisk program that comes with dos mark mark physchem
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway flash bios upgrade lhdsy lahabra chevron com hwrvo kato lahabra chevron com volz writes what gain with this new bios fixed problem for getting divide errors that were caused the bios overwriting some interapplication memory area our problem was with clarion database programs but also heard that fixed the same problem with brief pat gleason maybe something good maybe something pgleason ncratl atlantaga ncr com bad guess never know
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	funet apr gmt perry wswiop win tue perry egelmeers said perry nntp posting host wswiop win tue perry artieb vnet ibm com writes saw posting earlier that refered funet directory pub msdos however when log funet cant even find the pub directory let alone the msdos directory can someone tell what doing wrong perry perhaps you should try nic funet instead funet another possibility that you did not give your email address password for the anonymous account you that you see following message you entered invalid inpropable password and are now accessing restricted subset files please read readme for more information have special access features see file readme was last updated tue apr days ago this can happen your terminal emulator does not generate the character you think hard see since passwords are not echoed arto viitanen internet uta university tampere admd fumail finland
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	where the best place find used usenet otherwise where the best place find classified type ads for used several other computer makes have their own wanted sections the usenet what about and compatibles where the cheapest place nationally buy used systems and laptops gene jackatak raider net gene wright jackatak raider net
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway monitor problem again help wave asg news udel edu jlredd ravel udel edu joshua smith writes once again someone else with gateway monitor problem anyone who can help please would much apprieciated thanks advance have local bus machine with the crystal scan inch monitor have meg loca memory the ati ultra pro the mach driver the newest release problem windows when use the mode get shadows down the sides the screens and very blurry type the corners the types the screen are all out focus gotten replacement video cards and replacement monitor none that has helped though could someone pleae help with this very frustruating problem try removing the monitor extension cable reports are that the extension cable causeing these problems
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway too high price well gateway faxed price sheet just now seems the higher side but then again maybe not mhz dram simms expandable western digital ide dtr local bus ide interface ati ultra pro bus with vram and bit drivers crystalscan color monitor all for this isn all too high price keep mind that you get meg ram local bus ide and svga card and monitor the local bus ide and svga really kick butt windows have used couple machines with vlb the past and all can praise gateway mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet sdnet bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	motherboard manufacturer does anyone out there have hand the phone fax number for tech power who are motherboard manufacturer may known tech power enterprises thannks advance chris mail chris forker newcastle dept marine technology voice newcastle university fax newcastle upon tyne
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	phillips monitor conversion peeps here another those any ideas type queries been given oldish phillips televideo terminal type thingy without keyboard but problem far when dismantled discovered that really just standard rgb monitor with built modem rom software etc phillips kindly labelled the circuit board with the rgb inputs connected monitor and presto worked sort the problem that have idea where connect the sync lines the display rolls continuously but does change modes only cga but useful for laptop any you wonderful people any knowledge phillips monitors tried phillips the and very helpful guy told that has had several enquiries this sort but phillips computer now under the auspices dec least the dec said sorry phillips don make any more what anyway support dealer said circuit diagrams sync any ideas john quote computer scientists are not boring they wonderful exciting interesting people who just happen like talking inanimate objects they are human
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	modem problem dialtone dudek acsu buffalo edu the cybard writes worked fine please note none the software hardware parameters were changed only the phone line itself new modem faulty what can david thomas dudek pwxs ubvms bitnet the cybard arguing with the phone company about similar problem installed second phone line our home for our kids and whenever one them their line the modem returns dial tone its line when pick the phone and listen can hear kids voices bleed through whenever can hear this the modem won dial even though the dial tone loud and clear through the modem speaker think the phone company problem but they say they can won correct the problem still working them reid buyaky sysop heartland multiline bbs micro resources inc dublin ohio unix systems integrators net rbuyaky com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	internal modems without uart seeing all these questions about uart types their availability and their relative merits wouldn fine for internal highspeed modems there were mode operation bypassing the dull and stupid uart interface and instead accessing directly the relatively large send receive buffers the modem thus eliminating all problems with interrupt latencies just idea wolfgang mueller dvs uni duesseldorf computing centre heinrich heine university duesseldorf germany
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need rules for floppy and twisted cable installation article apr ncar ucar edu fredrick acd ucar edu timothy fredrick writes looking for information how install floppy drive floppy drive twisted cable with the twist between the two floppy connectors and controller for example should both drives have drive select depends the fdc but generally the drive the end after the twist should set drive what about the terminating resistor pack that the floppy which connector should into which drive since you using the drive should the end after the twist with the resistor pack fitted does pin the connector always correspond with pin the floppy drive yes stuff deleted hope this helps had exactly the same problems unfortunately when changed different machine the problems started again because different fdc seems don flame this mainly guess work from practicle experience that some fdc different things with the select john
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how change the cluster size wondering somebody could tell can change the cluster size ide drive normally can with norton calibrat mfm rll drives but dunno can ide too glenn jayaputera
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scsi ide randy msc cornell edu writes all scsi cards for dos systems require separate device driver loaded into memory for each scsi device hooked all that seen have also board bios which enables you use hard drives directly under dos drives dos limitation and you have the same problem with ide and all other standards for that matter software drivers often allow for better performance though you have use them you want use other devices besides hard disks have more than disks will this also true the bit obviously these are not able use the bit real mode bioses that are written for dos you need software drivers that not big deal long the drivers are available because you won have fight with any low memory problems either segmented memory helps structure software
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	philips pro monitor guys does anyone could tell which resolution can work this monitor course support but and with cirrus card seems don work any clues written max rosa ghost dsi unimi
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	diamond stealth giving winmarks article netnews upenn edu balog eniac seas upenn edu eric balog writes when posting winmark results good idea give the version winbench that you used obtain the scores well the resolution that you tested and the version the drivers doesn anybody actually read the licence agreement winbench before blindly running the licence agreement very clearly says that details about hardware configuration driver resolution and other relevant facts must included when giving winmark results ziff davis wants everybody this and that requirement makes sense really plain numbers are useless when resolution driver and machine are unknown pekka taipale hut
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors nanao article wkx frv news iastate edu schauf iastate edu brian schaufenbuel writes what tube does the viewsonic use does support been looking philips which uses sony trinitron tube has digital controls supports and has dot pitch can found for under the original poster john navitsky said that might use the monitor sparcstation the able generate picture not officially but tried set this resolution and refresh rate and the came with non syncing screen our tube obviously couldn handle this speed worked perfectly when buying third party monitor that going used sparcstation you might consider monitor that fast enough don know for sure whether the supports this sun certainly won tell you you have check adrie koolen adrie ica philips philips consumer electronics eindhoven the netherlands
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	vesa and folks have mhz and now buying new first question which the best way share hard disks and printer two will far about meter and like use parallel port ethernet card and like share resource under dos linux and windows which think buy mzh local bus but heard that some board coulnd work properly cause some incompatibilites that true should mhz better solution case buy local bus better buy accelerated svga card with normal local bus ide controller better buy local bus svga card non accelerated with normal ide controller there any accelerated local bus and possibly true color svga card which price need buy which the cheapest that able read musical photo kodak and computer rom have heard about sony and mitsumi which best and which controller work with its thank everyone anserw rosa ghost dsi unimi
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	isa vlb xor eisa advice wanted article apr julian uwo rmitch irus rri uwo ross mitchell writes have choice now between basically the above system but with with isa and vlb with eisa and vlb and thus the non local bus version the ati card which better keeping mind that primarily interested the last two tasks micronics ami came out with eisa vlb motherboards byte mag tests indicate that vlb faster for video but eisa faster for disk ops wait for hopefully start using the micronics board mark ashley disclaimer opinions not harris marka gcx ssd csd harris com the lost los angelino
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	archive and qic just quick question reguarding tape backup own dos box and have archive interface card connected qic tape drive now the simple question does anybody netland know were can get some software for msdos ver run this setup freeware shareware preferred thanks advance darryl sorry for the repost but still getting grips with pnews darryl cross inmos ltd mail darryl inmos bristol ukc inmos darryl tel uunet inmos com darryl fax internet darryl inmos com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	using pwr spply planning upgrading old compatible system with new motherboard hard drive and floppy interested using old power supply power the new hardware possible have been told the motherboard vendor that could probably use the supply had twelve wires going the motherboard apparently some vintage supplies had only wires the wire line used charge the motherboard battery question has anybody tried bringing additional wire out wire supply using auxiliary power source charge the motherboard battery not wish buy entirely new power supply can make use existing one with simple hacks thank you for any information email reply rarbanas rcsuna gmr com would fine larry arbanas
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help needed for the past week been trying install qic tape drive and everex bit full size controller eisa system with luck end getting error miscompare during the streaming read part the test pretty certain that the port setting irq dma are set properly since the tape responds properly all commands rewind retension write and erase also booted the system clean and still the same proble also tend eliminate any memory conflicts has been suggested that bus speed too fast and that need slow down system has ami bios and don have the advanced chip setting option that have seen other systems cant this going have accept that this set won work can anyone suggest work around will glad hear your advice suggestions tony
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scsi dos adding drive article apr physchem mark physchem mark jackson writes article jethro corp sun com maf corp sun com mike figueroa writes does anyone know there are any problems possible adding third hard drive scsi dos currently have with future domain scsi board and maxtor scsi drives installed they work great haven had any problems well now want more disk space and went out and got another larger scsi hard disk thinking all had was add the chain pin ribbon that has connectors and run the fdisk program format initialize the disk that didn happen when the boots the scsi prom shoots back the devices that are attached the board target target target all three disks are seen when run the dos fdisk program format the disk choose select another disk option dos and voila not there the first two disks show problem but the third disk where found have got adaptec scsi card that comes with its own version fdisk the problem with dos that will only see two hard disks any more need done device drivers odd fdisk works fine for with ide drives and scsi drive ultrastor only with the device driver loaded though
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	address for zoom own zoom bis modem and having some strange problems would like contact the manufacturer but there address the box does any have their address telephone number thanx don smith don smith djs ultb rit edu djs ritvax bitnet finger djs ultb rit edu for pgp public key
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	courier sportster cleveland freenet edu andy nicola writes previous article maccs mcmaster holly says what the difference between the robotics courier bis external and sportster external see that the price sportster has dramatical dropped below but the price the courier remains above anyone with knowledge both these modems anyone that owns courier the sportster has error control and bis data compression this becoming standard all these high speed modems the difference with the courier that can run and only the hst mode the courrier will not run only the dual standard hst the usr modem over courrier will and with compression error correction much more will bis bis etc etc and asl too whatever asl david china cat bbs cat david sed csc com uunet mimsy anagld cat david
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	soundblaster irq and port settings discussing the use irq recent article msprague superior mcwbst mike sprague writes number poeple this thread have already written can prove true but believe lpt does not actually use irq even though that interrupt supposed dedicated lpt put little differently irq the facto standard interrupt assigned used the printer adapter announce its completion some activity dos doesn monitor irq uses other means determine when time send out another byte the printer most all hardware printer adapters have the ability disable the use irq usually merely breaking the connection between the isa pin and the associated driver other adapters control the irq line tri state driver and programming just leave the high impedence mode unfortunately there are lot adapter cards which use bistate drivers either assert high assert low for the irq lines rather than tristate drivers assert high assert low don assert anything the presence such card irq line precludes the use that irq any other adapter unless physically disconnected jumper incidentally note that there requirement that card hold the irq line low when interrupt desired that were true you would have somehow tie down all unconnected irq lines and that certainly isn requirement non dos operating systems various unices whatever the proper plural unix might require the use irq for performance reasons and the alas one the cards which uses bistate drivers joe morris mitre jcmorris mitre org
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors nanao there good report list most all the good monitors this months issue computer shoppers magazine with their phone munbers and all april issue sam gosh think just installed virus was called dos don copy that floppy burn just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	vlb scsi card suggest gisie wam umd edu satan wrote can someone recommend decent vesa local bus scsi controller card saw post for the ultrastor something other and was wondering this would good choice need supported card that software like the march beta will recognize buslogic just announced the fast scsi vlb interface april this always happens have one week old which the isa version enjoying spectacular performance with micropolis rpm drive changing the very soon though difficult imagine even higher transfer speeds with the bit vesa support you can call buslogic and ask about the question hear that the support excellent have not had call them myself yet regards channel cambridge
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dos article apr ucsu colorado edu koberg spot colorado edu allen koberg writes article mosque huji dny huji danny halamish writes also dblspace crap writes about slower than stacker reads about slower and compresses about less all tests were made the same computer with the same disk cache and the same big files were used couldn agree more don miss the speed still faster than normal disk read would for the less compression koberg recall reading review article computing wherein they reported reduction the loading time for lengthy programs using stacker this was not due the compression algorithm per but the fact that fewer fetches were required during the sequential file access does anyone have any actual performance numbers relating speeds stacker and dblspace
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	 article zgc rpi edu arnolm aix rpi edu matthew richard arnold writes would someone willing explain the mhz not more popular than would think would just fast not faster than the mhz for certian applications plus mhz motherboard would seem better you had any plans upgrading the chip the future must missing something since everyone buying the many adds don even mention the one the things going for the over the that clock speed complies with the vesa local bus spec lance hartmann lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com yes that percent sign network address all statements comments opinions etc herein reflect those the author and shall not misconstrued those ibm anyone else for that matter
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	diamond products boycot article apr monu monash edu ins mdw monash edu markfried fellensiek writes diamond video cards stealth viper speedstar etc may have excellent specifications and the windows drivers that come with them might make windows blindingly fast but most fellow diamond video board owners with whom corresponded may may not share your opinion about the proprietary clocking scheme but all those with whom chatted have not been thrilled with the window drivers either some modes work fine but others cause strange misdrawn objects trails etc many have also voiced their strong discontent diamond ambivalent attitude toward drivers come think though hear and see lot complaints about the ati boards too though recent word looks like the build code looks much better does anyone have accelerated video board with drivers for windows where all the modes function properly anyone anyone lance hartmann lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com yes that percent sign network address all statements comments opinions etc herein reflect those the author and shall not misconstrued those ibm anyone else for that matter
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	floptical drives anyone kin chan sparrow cmu edu wrote just curious why floptical drives never seemed catch remember those disks that look and feel like floppies these drives are scsi devices and can read and write both and disks sounds one great product for the market are the prices really that unaffordable compared roms which are currently not rewritable know about the new rewritable cds and expect sony develop the first mds for the computer question why isn there any substantial interest developing the flopticals certainly the the flopticals are about the same price cheap rom now you seem able get them for around gbp however the bigger optical drives are much more expensive around the gbp mark couple questions that someone may able answer the flopticals are they direct drop replacements for floppy they need driver software etc you just rip out the floppy drive plug the same cables into the floptical stick flopti disk and hey presto you have floppy this sounds far too easy the subject sony developing mds for computers have reread pcw article this subject and there says that sony have been doing optical drives for other people for some time and may about product themselves from the article seems that the audio format byproduct their computer storage work the mechanism identical their computer optical drives sony spokesman was quoted saying that disk would hold about data though refused comment any possibility this being productized the article said that one the problems holding back development this area was lack sensible standards plus there are least distinct optical storage mechanisms around present given that probably needs mds being used distribution medium get into the market and since this has already been cornered cds probably needs someone come with very strong marketting lead get mds accepted david shepherd des inmos tel inmos ltd aztec west almondsbury bristol they didn like the rates they don like the poll tax and they won like the council tax nicholas ridley
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cached hardrives after reading many postings concerning hard drives still unclear about one thing these new cached hard drives the cache the drive itself separate like the controller something thanks anyone who can clear this tmc tmc spartan brocku
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	looking for comments compaq deskpro hello you have any experience knowledge comments advice etc about compaq eisa deskpro machines please reply preferably via email thinking getting one and looking for any all user comments thanks looking
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help led connectors for motherboard article last newsgroups comp sys ibm hardware from nstassen magnus acs ohio state edu nicki stassen lantz subject help led connectors for motherboard date thu apr bought motherboard for documentation all everything appears work except having trouble getting few the led connectors working looked the manuals for other motherboards but the pin configuration doesn look anything like what this board does this pin arrangement look familiar anyone out there any hints where can find this information speaker keylock the board came with jumper vertically across these two pins can get the power keylock work across pins reset across pins and shown press space for more quit for help but would prefer not blow something further experimentation the date the board itself opti chips would really appreciate any help and thank you advance stassen lantz end file press return quit nicji would realy realy help you said what chipset and the board was upgradable not board and how old and the bios sam gosh think just installed virus was called dos don copy that floppy burn just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help ide drive installation problems article last newsgroups comp sys ibm hardware from qwerty tunisia ssc gov kris schludermann subject help ide drive installation problems date thu apr having trouble with installing second ide drive promise ide caching controller the first drive conner and works fine the second drive conner currently unjumpered the slave drive the problem the slave drive recognized but reported back having free space disabling cache has made effect what else should check for krispy end file press return quit krispy lets start with what promise controller that you have ther are only about them made the one that have the needs nothing done but install stated the you know about running fdisk and partisitions and then formatting after your finished with the fdisk operation right sam gosh think just installed virus was called dos don copy that floppy burn just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway zeos compare article yetti uucp yorku chin lam writes think buying new computer through the mail order looking the gateway systen and the zeos system which better terms value price ungrade service because canada wonder can have the same level service the states don know about canada but have heard from people doing translation work papua new quinea that they like them and have had good response service another seriously considering buying one john anderson texas instruments inc internet anderson dseg com box compuserve plano fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway monitor problem again help did you ever notice that all the problems are from people that run windows thanks gosh think just installed virus was called dos don copy that floppy burn just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bios passwords hope that there somebody out there that can help some our students change the ami bios passwords few our computers and set for always what like know there way bypass remove the password have tried switching bios but avail the battery soldered the bord all three machines still under guarentee that would have help can remove the batteries thanks isak isak venter itbijv puknet puk money can buy happiness but surely pays for the illusion
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	diamond products boycot article apr monu monash edu ins mdw monash edu markfried fellensiek writes you considering buying system with view using run unix linux bsd etc some other special software there good chance that will not work with the diamond cards that the special software free like xfree there are vendors that sells diamond drivers for commercial unices but then they charge this due diamond propriety attitude hardware impossible get free information from them about their chips specifically their dot clocks without paying and signing non disclosure agreements think they only need signing paying this still violates the fsf policy publically available code this made impossible for the free software foundation provide windows compatibility with these cards diamond didn want divulge programming neccessities while this true there are fixes for those who have already bought diamond cards linux for example there are utilities that will put the card vesa mode before invoking course this means fine tuning diamond cards but least this will allow those who stuck with them use linux agree with mark suggestion you are buying video card for specialized free software avoid diamond but you already have one there may fix that can help you james jjctc chevron com the shortest distance between jtsiao netcom com two puns straight line ask about linux the freely distributable unix clone for the
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	consumer warning midwest micro ohio midwest micro article last newsgroups comp dcom modems comp sys ibm hardware misc consumers from wilson schaefer math wisc edu bob wilson subject consumer warning midwest micro ohio date thu apr posted almost the same bad experience with midwest micro but our news program only sent one paragraph out the middle addition the facts that the modems had ordered two wouldn work documented and the tech person had clue how should work also turned out that one the two modems they sent was clearly used but the techs thought that was standard practice and the modems made all three floppy drives quit working and cms tape drive start running away that they are incompetent one thing but that they sell used stuff new and won even apologize for another stay away from these crooks bob wilson shown press space for more quit for help wilson math wisc edu end file press return quit bob have walked into micro center here the cleveland area and bought new track ball and picked the only one that was sealed plastic rap only get home and oped find good year old used dirty old track ball with warranty card for some software package would never even think installing anything that looked like was used all you should called medwest micro and made them pus pull tag they would picked and sent you out ner one the same day things get better knowing how but equipment after the first try gosh think just installed virus was called dos don copy that floppy burn just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors nanao adrie koolen adrie ica philips wrote article wkx frv news iastate edu schauf iastate edu brian schaufenbuel writes what tube does the viewsonic use does support been looking philips which uses sony trinitron tube has digital controls supports and has dot pitch can found for under the original poster john navitsky said that might use the monitor sparcstation the able generate picture not officially but tried set this resolution and refresh rate and the came with non syncing screen our tube obviously couldn handle this speed worked perfectly don know which tube the viewsonic uses but has khz horizontal bandwidth you can pretty high ran mine which was fast the orchid could drive also the does claim able support but have experience with that since have the spec sheet front type some crt dot pitch deg deflection rgb mediou short persisance tint anti static anti glare anti reflection input signal rgb analog ohms also has setting for sync separate ttl composite sync green horizontal freq khz vertical freq compatibility from vga non interlaced mac iici and above controls contrast brightness position size degauss voltage color temp sync select color tuning moire off video band witdth mhz max brightness white flat field misconvergence max center max corner dimensions weight lbs don know what some those mean and don verify their accuracy just typed them other things they hype the sheet are double quaduple dynamic astigmatism focus right they mean they use two lenses advanced invar shadow mask viewmatch color control which they claim and easy use system that adjusts colors closely match printer output near have been able figure out this translates separate controls for red green and blue how this makes easy match for printer output beyond but beyond the hype the monitor very pleasant look sharp clear and isn nearly bad the nec for reflections geoff sherwood
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bios passwords some our students change the ami bios passwords few our computers and set for always what like know there way bypass remove the password have tried switching bios but avail the battery soldered the bord all three machines still under guarentee that would have help can remove the batteries far know there way get around the bios password except shorting out the power supply the cmos memory thereby erasing this will remove the password but will also destroy all the previous bios settings then you have and set them all again there jumper the motherboard which provided for the purpose shorting the battery you just short this jumper briefly and interrupts power the cmos long enough erase would imagine there something like this your board too the future would suggest that you set the password and leave setup only that way one else can and reset set always unless they know what password you used they had this over here too when they got bunch new for just the same reason dale dale nurden nurden elaine und technical ordinator dept electronic engineering durban youth radio university natal durban durban south africa south africa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	 article last newsgroups comp sys ibm hardware from arnolm aix rpi edu matthew richard arnold subject date wed apr would someone willing explain the mhz not more popular than would think would just fast not faster than the mhz for certian applications plus mhz motherboard would seem better you had any plans upgrading the chip the future must missing something since everyone buying the many adds don even mention the thanks lot matt end file press return quit yes its realy simple one makes mother board that runs the bus more than mhz sam gosh think just installed virus was called dos don copy that floppy burn just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	isa graphic card info source that might look like dull request but have been following this newgroup for couple weeks and didn help make mind bought new machine not long ago after being disconnected from the world for while have been running mhz till last january the machine bought came equipped with ati vga graphic card gives very nice picture and the windows drivers are pretty stable the only problem that quite slow would like for faster card not the range saw lot comments many products over the last weeks but didn get overall picture clear enough make choice question could somebody direct source information which would help quest would like get information about the refresh rates the various cards provide quality windows drivers standard vga performance non windows stuff direct magazine article something like that got winvid zip info but not enough you have isa card you are really satisfied with let know this information any use here system configuration fujikama mhz isa system contaq motherboard monitor darius non interlaced multisync can reach khz horizontally would also like know standard for video drivers allow screen dimensioning and screen positioning writing the eprom the graphic card this the case with ati card and very convenient when changing graphics mode since monitor not intelligent enough record settings merci avance for any information you would kind enough provide guy lamouche lamouche ere umontreal
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dos article apr ucsu colorado edu koberg spot colorado edu allen koberg writes with stacker any changes your config sys autoexec bat meant rebooting twice could update those this not necessary all you have modify the config sys the real boot partition disk then you can manually copy allow stacker boot likewise with the autoexec bat private note jennifer fakult this post may contain one more the following sarcasm cycnicism irony humor please aware this possibility and not allow yourself confused and thrown for loop doubt assume all the above the owners this account not take any responsiblity for your own confusion which may result from your inability recognize any the above read your own risk jennifer
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	subject article apr lehigh edu you write what the difference between uart and uart thanks the difference that the got bugs while the can used whithout problems even fast serial communications other sources say that only the afn from nat semi not second sources really best wishes oliver
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway monitor problem again help believe have the same monitor problem have system from micron computers with the mag the same monitor the gateway and having the same symptoms what this with removing the monitor extension cable thanks for any info
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway too high price then again maybe for the gateway system isn too cheap have system from micron computers meg ram maxtor local bus ide meg video card and the same monitor the system with shipping came sold the chip that came with and bought total price
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	 article mec usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu sam latonia writes from arnolm aix rpi edu matthew richard arnold subject date wed apr would someone willing explain the mhz not more popular than would think would just fast not faster than the mhz for certian applications plus mhz motherboard would seem better you had any plans upgrading the chip the future must missing something since everyone buying the many adds don even mention the thanks lot matt yes its realy simple one makes mother board that runs the bus more than mhz sam this isn quite true depending the number local bus slots and whether not the device integrated into the mother board possible run local bus and mhz also spoken few people who run standard local bus video cards mhz without trouble and couple people who couldn get card work that speed brian bjoppy ucdavis edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cpu fans article apr mfltd nmp mfltd writes just got mhz system and considering getting fan for the cpu the processor when running too hot touch think this fairly good idea long ago when did some electronics training read somewhere that the regions within chip that define junctions gates etc slowly diffuse over time and this increases with temperature hence hot chip goes off spec sooner has anyone out there got cpu fan yes there more than type yes seen glue tape clip one inch square and larger favorite the inch plastic toyo fan use just plopped down top the chip during open case service you have remove the cpu from its scoket install the fan depends the mounting all cpu fans derive their power from spare drive power lines only the manufacturer was smart anyone had any trouble with cpu fans only goes out got that blanket effect which doesn help chip life does anyone have any evidence that cpu fans are complete waste money longer system life makes good economic sense how are these fans attached glue clips melted cheese yes well not the melted cheese roughly how much cooler will the cpu with fan opposed without lets you touch the surface the rule thumb for cooling solid state advert read claims any info appreciated the attached fans look slick and work well but bothered the potential loss cooling the fan goes out least with the power supply fan you can reach back there every few days and feel the fan blowing prefer put stock fan off the drive brackets front panel blow air across the cpu depends lot case and board layout though chip fans from fry electronics the bay area are about get the stock power supply fans for about steve
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help how have quiet the fan power supply like most distractingly loud has anyone found solution running with peace and quiet short buying notebook don know what yeah did hear about power supply called silencer which supposed more quiet has anyone had experience with this was quoted price for watt silencer even considered stuffing case one those acoustic printer enclosures but that wouldn the most elegant solution also guessing that would also cut the ventilation any other ideas thanks advance for any suggestions please mail whatever you post alexander lerman alerman netcom com voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	lib wav driver currently have lib card can play mid files windows but cannot play the startup wav files called microsoft help cannot call lib since they went belly does anyone know there are special drivers that need for this where are they thanx libvance ommon pchang sunysb edu ense state university new york stony brook ngineer
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	notebooks posted this once but didn receive any responses been looking for good notebook for about two favorites are the zeos freestyle and the micro something other winbook the one with the apple powerbook style trackball and handrest and the slc any suggestions others love hear from someone who has one the two mentioned above too thanks advance jrl james lendino computer science phone columbia internet jrl cunixa columbia edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	isa can use over megs ram not computer literate but what can cannot done with the ram over megs isa machine please mail thanks advance charley
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	maxtor jumper settings need know the jumper settings for master and slave operation maxtor ide hard disk thanks advance erik svensson ers skanska tel skanska data danderyd sweden fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cpu fans russest ampex com steve russell writes deletions the attached fans look slick and work well but bothered the potential loss cooling the fan goes out least with the power supply fan you can reach back there every few days and feel the fan blowing yes this valid concern imho with the directly attached fan units seen looks like the fan were stop the chip cooling would good bit worse than heat sink all other words the fan stops the unit turns into insulator and the chip might get hot enough suffer permanent damage not just stop working temporarily prefer put stock fan off the drive brackets front panel blow air across the cpu depends lot case and board layout though zeos tower case has passive heat sink the cpu and located the front fan which sucks air into the case blows right the heat sink that fan stops the heat sink still cooled convection air flow should not see too dramatic temperature rise essentially the arrangement you talking about and good idea imho chip fans from fry electronics the bay area are about get the stock power supply fans for about steve devilbiss col com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bios replacement isa with ami bios and opti chipset thinking replacing the ami bios chip dated with date one not for any reason just messing around questions are just take out the old one and plug new anything else have take care what precautions should take where can get the new bios chip compusa mailorder what live orange county california what the most date version very important how much would thank you for your help paul
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help com port problems and mouse hello want know spoilt com port will create problems with mouse mouse just gets stuck the screen for while and have press its button able move around again there shareware utility program diagnose com ports thanks ming
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	adding second ide drive article ulowell ulowell edu mcook ulowell edu michael cook writes just bought western digital caviar ide drive and want add system which already has ide drive the controller says supports hard drives but when plug the cables the bios setup and try start the system pauses and then get invalid drive error message the system boots but cannot access the new hard drive the new drive works fine drive all alone but not able get both drives working the same time any help appreciated thanks mike you need run fdisk eric
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help floppy problem floppy drive stopped recognizing low density floppies the controller and drive works fine another system was told could the dma chip the system using chips technology chip set open all suggestions please send your replies ken jazz concert net thanks advance
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	can set com answer gateway service has confirmed suspicion echoed couple people who responded the original request for help the ati vlb video board uses the addresses for com they could suggest work around will returning the card they supplied for com even though could not possibly work for credit against bus mouse this will free the com port need too bad the original salesman who suggested either the card the bus mouse would solve need for port didn know enough about the hardware otherwise must say that the system has worked very well problems with any other hardware software john siegel bnc cbnewsh att com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	diamond products boycot article xwri npe austin ibm com lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com writes article apr monu monash edu ins mdw monash edu markfried fellensiek writes come think though hear and see lot complaints about the ati boards too though recent word looks like the build code looks much better build still has number problems sheared fonts for instance you have crystal fonts enabled some other problems color darkening and some others don use the drivers any mode other than there are bugs the other modes can say does anyone have accelerated video board with drivers for windows where all the modes function properly anyone anyone honest until now have only found one bug the diamond viper drivers and seems innocuous that under microsoft word select format border click shading and take look the patterns the pattern has been swapped with the and the whole list completely reversed looks right onscreen but take another machine gup machine print and shows badly keep mind that use mainly mode can speak for the others but otherwise these drivers seem pretty solid what big noisy and has operation rescue
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bus hdd fdd controller ide hdd fdd controller hpsgm sgp com taybh hpsgm sgp com beng hang tay writes buying quantum lps hardisk and deciding hdd fdd controller bit bus hdd fdd controller faster than bit ide hdd fdd controller card hear that the bus controller slower than ide controller which one true the ide adapter can much faster then the normal ide depends the drive you use and the board you use using noname ide contr tested under coretest with using cheap seagate and nearly using caviar you have figure out the jumper setting the controller get reliable diskaccess fastest setting gets under coretest but does not work reliable you have shadow the adapter bios get the fast speed haven used ide cache controller yet but might speed twice dieter dieter fritzsche dieter dischw toppoint maehlsweg kiel germany master the wom tel voice fax box zyxel fast waffle fax compuserve
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	comtrade article apr enh nist gov thacker enh nist gov writes has anyone had experience buying computers from comtrade when asked about got one reply describing problems returning defective hard drive should expect any problems from comtrade thanks carlisle thacker miami purchased one personal computer and three for business from them problems the only time called tech support was for minor question about video driver and had problem getting through all four machines seem high quality and well made eisa machine has been our network file server running hrs per day since last summer with problems hope this helpful allen mulvey mulvey blurt oswego edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway monitor problem again help joshua smith jlredd ravel udel edu wrote once again someone else with gateway monitor problem anyone who can help please would much apprieciated thanks advance have local bus machine with the crystal scan inch monitor have meg loca memory the ati ultra pro the mach driver the newest release problem windows when use the mode get shadows down the sides the screens and very blurry type the corners the types the screen are all out focus gotten replacement video cards and replacement monitor none that has helped though could someone pleae help with this very frustruating problem have the meg card with the crystal scan inch also see very faint shadows the left side the screen only mode but not enough really bother the characters the screen are clear until turn the crystal fonts then they become blurry have friend who has meg the video card who has the same shadows but says the crystal fonts are well crystal clear are both using build the mach drivers neither has monitor extension cable tried the build driver and found difference tim king tcking uswnvg com west newvector group inc bellevue washington
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ibm link imagewriter article uupcb ozonehole com chris crayton ozonehole com chris crayton writes larry henson had the unmitigated gall say this hello trying hook apple imagewriter ibm clone seem have problem configuring lpt port accept this how can you adjust baud parity etc fit the system tried mode but did not work anyone can help post mail thanx lpt ports don recognize baud parity etc settings you might tring connect serial printer parallel port try this attach the serial port the printer serial port the use the mode command set the com port settings try mode com set the port parameters then use the mode command redirect the printer port lpt like this mode lpt com this should work good luck first you need connect them with null modem cable atleast thats what heard dave
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how null modem cable kevin kimmell computer science german undergrad kimmell vax cns muskingum edu wrote interrested the extrodinarily simple concept the null modem cable actually have idea don count that last statement what asking what pins does use what are specifications just want solder one myself instead buying one don even know what port used pin pin name eia ccitt dte dce description frame ground transmitted data received data rts request send cts clear send dsr data set ready signal ground dcd data carrier detect positive test voltage negative test voltage equalizer mode sdcd scf secondary data carrier detect scts scb secondary clear send std sba secondary transmitted data transmitter clock srd sbb secondary receiver clock receiver clock dcr divided clock receiver srts sca secondary request send dtr data terminal ready signal quality ring indicator data rate selector data rate selector transmitted clock from another posting sorry don know the author connecting devices normally wire connection used connect gnd gnd rxd txd txd rxd dtr dsr dsr dtr rts cts cts rts modem connected add lines for the following dcd software wants connect dcd cts and dcd cts beware while pcs use pin for rxd and pin for txd modems normally have those pins reversed this allows easily connect pin pin pin pin etc you connect two pcs cross rxd and txd hardware handshaking not needed called null modem connection can used connect gnd gnd rxd txd txd rxd additionally connect software needs rts cts dcd rts cts dcd dtr dsr dtr dsr you won need long wires for these the null modem connection used establish xon xoff transmission between two pcs see software section for details remember the names dtr dsr cts rts refer the lines seen from the this means that for your data set dtr rts are incoming signals and dsr cts are outputs end michael michael jester gun michael gerhards preussenstrasse germany neuss voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	low emission monitors who besides nec does anyone else make low radiation emission monitors besides nec how they compare necs quality and emission wise tia les les hartzman hartzman kilroy jpl nasa gov jet propulsion laboratory oak grove pasadena
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	plus hardcard owners help article usenet ins cwru edu evw cwru edu eric wong writes there have problem here lost the software drivers and setup programs for hardcard can someone email the files let know plus development were they bought out quantum has bbs phone have hardcard the quantum bbs number good luck les les hartzman hartzman kilroy jpl nasa gov jet propulsion laboratory oak grove pasadena
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	joystick again disk that had joystick code that some you were kind enough mail puked specifically looking for code read the position joystick without using int accessing port directly need becaues memory model considerations only need able read the and position also brian
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cpu fans the attached fans look slick and work well but bothered the potential loss cooling the fan goes out least with the power supply fan you can reach back there every few days and feel the fan blowing yes this valid concern imho with the directly attached fan units seen looks like the fan were stop the chip cooling would good bit worse than heat sink all other words the fan stops the unit turns into insulator and the chip might get hot enough suffer permanent damage not just stop working temporarily suggestion slave hook series small pilot light off the fan circuit then the light goes out you know your fan not working tom
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cpu temperature cpu activity organization compact solutions canberra act australia this may very naive question but there any basis for the claim that cpu will get hotter when computationally intensive job running friend claims that there will little difference the temperature idle cpu and cpu running computationally intensive job from what seen coursework most cpus never actually idle they will continue service interrupts etc etc the clock will always running mhz matter what doing suppose depending the instruction the cpu may use circuitry which has more transistors than other instructions but you consider the additional heat generated only handful additional tiny resistors and then spread that heat dissipation over the cpu packaging the change temperature the immediate environment the surface the package will negligible cheers ben ben elliston bachelor engineering computer engineering university canberra ooo ooo email compsol fir canberra edu also ellib cbr cpsg com uucp uunet munnari sserve adfa compsol root fidonet origin compact solutions canberra act australia
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	disk caching organization compact solutions canberra act australia has anybody every come across problem whereby hard disk locks crashes the system when attempting load disk caching think the logic board may have been buggered but the drive works perfectly without disk cache tried hyperdisk and various versions smartdrive all avail any advice would much appreciated need cached drive but need the extra space second drive just much thanks cheers ben ben elliston bachelor engineering computer engineering university canberra ooo ooo email compsol fir canberra edu also ellib cbr cpsg com uucp uunet munnari sserve adfa compsol root fidonet origin compact solutions canberra act australia
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	read only harddrive few computers which have here sheridan college there are files which would like make read only have used the dos attrib command but some people who carry around the attrib program their pockets have still been able erase some the more important files are there any software packages which would make entire drive read only example partition the drive into two partitions and have the first drive contain the important files which can only read and the second drive you could both read and write any and all enquiries help would appreciated thanx mark zander sheridanc
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help bios upgrade compaq deskpro howdy recently upgraded the original bios compaq deskpro with phoenix replacement bios order support ide hard drive and high density floppy assumed that this would plug and play procedure but have encountered problem that phoenix and compaq are unwilling admit responsibilty for and was wondering anyone else had seen everything hunky dory except the floppy which will read but not write diskettes any write attempt merely corrupts both fats have tried everything can think any takers micah lax freenet carleton micah bnr internet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	floppy problems organization compact solutions canberra act australia have floppy drive which has developed general failure errors teac drive took out the machine and noticed was very dusty used high powered air can blow all this dust out and quite clean now however didn help the problem also identified that when the machine boots and the drive seeks for boot disk the head movement during this process now approximately half the length the original time what mean the period when the drive light comes and the heads move from their retracted position out the track containing the boot sector there anything more can try and save this drive prefer not shell out for new one can help thanks cheers ben ben elliston bachelor engineering computer engineering university canberra ooo ooo email compsol fir canberra edu also ellib cbr cpsg com uucp uunet munnari sserve adfa compsol root fidonet origin compact solutions canberra act australia
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	diamond stealth pro vram want have some info about diamond stealth pro vram what graphics modes does support are color modes included vesa bios for use with dos programs any experiences yet bugs advantages how fast under windows and dos price thanks lasse mits mdata
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway monitor problem again help afriad that not true the monitor problem seems occur whenever the mag monitor put into mode running and the same symptoms appear does not seem like video card problem the cirrus logic chip and the ati gup seem cause these problems two very different cards glenn
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need specs for western digital ide friend mine needs spec for used hard drive just got western digital ide meg with cylinders and heads believe the model number but can sure model any info would appreciated either from somone who knows maybe western digitals phone number thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	grayscale displays below the list large least inches diagonal monochrome monitors which computer shopper lists compatible omitted radius because radius states that they longer support the you will notice that nanao the only one which supports khz horizontal frequency which the frequency normally used vga cards boot guess that all the other monitors come with their own graphics cards left voice mail with nanao asking them send some literature and will report back the net after studied the prices given appear list prices and have little relationship reality kenneth almquist cut here cornerstone technology concourse san jose dualpage diagonal inches max resolution frequencies khz horizontal vertical dimensions inches price compatible with dualpage diagonal inches max resolution frequencies khz horizontal vertical dimensions inches price compatible with ikegami electronics inc brook ave maywood diagonal inches max resolution frequencies khz horizontal vertical price compatible with image systems corp tel hopkins lmax diagonal inches max resolution frequencies khz horizontal vertical dimensions inches price compatible with mac max diagonal inches max resolution frequencies khz horizontal vertical price compatible with mac pmax diagonal inches max resolution frequencies khz horizontal vertical dimensions inches price compatible with mac pmax diagonal inches max resolution frequencies khz horizontal vertical dimensions inches price compatible with mac nanao usa corp telo ave torrence flexscan diagonal inches max resolution frequencies khz horizontal vertical dimensions inches price compatible with mac ran ger technologies inc address unknown the genuis model diagonal inches max resolution frequencies khz horizontal vertical dimensions inches price compatible with sampo corp america box atlanta imagepro diagonal inches max resolution frequencies khz horizontal vertical price compatible with officepro iie diagonal inches max resolution frequencies khz horizontal vertical price advertized april shopper compatible with samsung electronics america inc address unknown you could try samsung information systems inc san joes pagemaster diagonal inches max resolution frequencies khz horizontal vertical dimensions inches price compatible with mac sigma designs inc bayside pkwy freemont view diagonal inches max resolution frequencies khz horizontal vertical dimensions inches price compatible with mac view multimode diagonal inches max resolution frequencies khz horizontal vertical dimensions inches price compatible with mac multimode diagonal inches max resolution frequencies khz horizontal vertical dimensions inches price min compatible with silverview diagonal inches max resolution frequencies khz horizontal vertical dimensions inches price min compatible with mac
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cpu temperature cpu activity article apr nessie mcc victor comms man victor buttigieg writes lino montuno montuno physics wrote this may very naive question but there any basis for the claim that cpu will get hotter when computationally intensive job running totally agree with your friend since when the cpu apparently idle still fact churning away millions instructions per second checking for keyboard input for instance the exception this for cpu used laptops where the cpu can enter idle state where just preserving its current status but doing absolutely nothing this case needs hardware interrupt get going again actually the iapx family has halt instruction that causes the cpu cease processing instructions the cpu resumes processing either being reset receiving external hardware interrupt this different from the power management facilities victor mentions course whether operating system idle loop uses the halt instruction another matter entirely kenneth ballou voice oberon software inc fax one memorial drive cambridge internet ballou oberon com the views and opinions expressed above are own and not necessarily reflect those employer
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scsi ide the bottom line article apr msc cornell edu randy ellingson writes which would you choose and why have both have ide only dros box and ide and scsi unix box ide the dros box cos only has hard disk scsi unix box cos has scsi hard disk rom and tape bought scsi makes adding many devices easier for the price one irq and dma have three different types device connected faster drives are also available for scsi have dec dsp that realy does have average seek time finds data faster than toshiba drive like lots people really like increase data transfer rate from the hard drive right now have ide drive seagate and standard ide controller card isa don think that scsi will increase your data transfer much isa bus currently thinking about adding another the range and thinking hard about buying scsi drive scsi for the future benefit believe getting something like sec transfer right now according pretty good how would this number compare bought the state the art scsi card for isa and the state the art scsi hard drive the best system could hope for many state the art scsi disks use the same mechanicals many state the art ide drives only the interface electronis differ look the fijitsu drive for example obviously money factors into this choice well any other but what would you want use your isa system and how much would cost use adaptec unix box and name ide cards both along those lines what kind transfer rate could see with ide were buy the top the line ide caching controller for and how much would cost caching controller why what does give you that smartdrive for dos does not about extra lower memory that about properly configured main memory cache will produce better results than caching controller unix reads reads data from its main memory cache that faster than the standards isa bus can ever sustain thanks for any comments randy guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns tel hoskyns guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	 article mec usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu sam latonia writes article last newsgroups comp sys ibm hardware from arnolm aix rpi edu matthew richard arnold subject date wed apr would someone willing explain the mhz not more popular than would think would just fast not faster than the mhz for certian applications plus mhz motherboard would seem better you had any plans upgrading the chip the future must missing something since everyone buying the many adds don even mention the thanks lot matt end file press return quit yes its realy simple one makes mother board that runs the bus more than mhz sam which bus think there are several reasons mhz motherboards are harder get right mhz need fast cache good idea mhz needs slowed down make compliant vesa bus mhz chips are faster for lot things with good fast cache going faster than what have course gosh think just installed virus was called dos don copy that floppy burn just love windows crash guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns tel hoskyns guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	isa bus scsi ide article apr msc cornell edu randy msc cornell edu randy ellingson writes questions deleted actually have pas and could what waste guess would hook scsi through scsi port which yields optimum sec actually have borrowed fujitsu hooked through now and own the trantor drivers for the pas scsi port this scsi port scsi port how could tell the fujitsu scsi are all scsi scsi does any one know what the pas scsi port counted the pins the board displayed their and only got what happened the other did they junk whole bunch grounds what thanks for any comments randy guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns tel hoskyns guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	courier sportster article apr mcshub dcss mcmaster maccs mcmaster holly writes perhaps this silly question but here goes what the difference between the robotics courier bis external and the sportster external see that the price sportster has dramatically dropped below but the price the courier remains above anyone with knowledge both these modems anyone that owns courier really appreciate your comments before decide which one buy thanks advance and thanks again those that replies robotics info wanted kevin hollyk mcmail cis mcmaster the courier looks lot cooler the courier upgradable vfast you have give usr more money for that tho the sportster able modified dual standard you want void your warantee and totally piss usr off
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	artec monitor does anyone have manual for artec monitor need the specs thanks rob malouf malouf csli stanford edu rob malouf malouf csli stanford edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	will ram work article apr monu monash edu giaec monash edu brett paterson writes wanting upgrade from and are looking cheap quote from someone offering motherboard with ram will probably sell old board off somewhere now have meg ram which consists module simms running nanoseconds would encounter problems with the pointed out areas throwing these from one computer the other there should problem with this just remember get the number wait states correct any comments gratefully mail preferred appreciated brett paterson not dyslexic email giaec monash edu leongatha victoria australia guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns tel hoskyns guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	diamond products boycot article apr sol ctr columbia edu penev rockefeller edu penio penev writes fri apr gmt markfried fellensiek ins mdw monash edu wrote you considering buying system with view using run unix linux bsd etc some other special software there good chance that will not work with the diamond cards this due diamond propriety attitude hardware impossible get free information from them about their chips specifically their dot clocks without paying and signing non disclosure agreements this made impossible for the free software foundation provide windows compatibility with these cards diamond didn want divulge programming neccessities don think the two main free systems and xfree are part the fsf such considering the above and some postings about diamond bad attitute towars customers ordered and actixge vlb card will arive these days does anyone know mail address for diamond which penio could forward his purchase information penio penev internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns tel hoskyns guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cached hardrives article apr spartan brocku tmc spartan brocku tim ciceran writes after reading many postings concerning hard drives still unclear about one thing these new cached hard drives the cache the drive itself separate like the controller something thanks anyone who can clear this have two scsi hard drives each has cache there several reasons for this when the drive has read requested data from the disk the scsi bus may busy this data needs stored some where until the bus free and the data can transmitted when the drive receives data written the data can come down the bus faster than the drive can write the disk needs stored somewhere while the disk writing out these situations the memory being used buffer not cache may the drive does some read adead caching well tmc tmc spartan brocku guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns tel hoskyns guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	laserjet fax opinions needed has anyone tried this laserjet fax receives faxes and prints them your iii also from your word processor you can print straight the fax has anyone had any problems fonts not working
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	soundblaster irq and port settings article pdb kilimanjaro jpl nasa gov pdb ipl jpl nasa gov paul bartholomew writes article shaman tek com andrew frip tek com andrew klossner wrote these lpt com disk controller are call devices there are devices that requires exclusive interrupt ownership disk controller and keyboard there are also devices that does not require exclusive ownership will share interrupt with another device lpt standard isa bus the one that almost all non laptop pcs use two separate interface cards cannot share interrupt this due screwup the bus design for example your soundblaster wants drive interrupt number then must hold certain bus wire all times depending whether not wants interrupt this precludes letting another card assert interrupt number when two more devices isa bus share interrupt because they implemented single card interesting would you care explain then how soundblaster pro card and printer card are sharing irq successfully assure you that they are both set irq and that have problem computer dtk ibm clone simple first andrew correct although can see where there might some confusion indeed possible have two cards configured use the same interrupt they can not share the interrupt the sense that not possible have both cards active the same time here example for some time was short free interrupts had tape controller not floppy tape that needed one irq irq old tape drive solution was use irq also used for com where modem did this because reasoned would never using the modem and the tape simultaneously when kermit runs installs its own interrupt handler for irq and uses the serial port the tape drive were generate interrupt kermit would not have clue what with for the tape controller and since the tape controller would not serviced would most likely hang likewise when the tape backup software runs installs interrupt handler for irq that handler won anything for the serial port under dos printing not interrupt driven instead the bios polls the status the parallel port determine when another byte may sent that why you can have your sound card and lpt both configured use irq try that and see how far you get kenneth ballou voice oberon software inc fax one memorial drive cambridge internet ballou oberon com the views and opinions expressed above are own and not necessarily reflect those employer
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need specs for western digital ide the number for western digital albert dirr internet address dirr tsclion trenton edu tsc student bitnet address dirr tscvm major phone
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	epson action printer new for sale have two opened new epson action printers for sale list price compusa asking shipping for each friend and got the printers promotional event one the compusa stores near our area didn need printers selling specs for printer pin dot matrix printer cps draft cps nlq sheet paper tray does single sheets prints letterhead small footprint can used either flat upright quiet operation can support optional tractor feeder comes with full year manufacturer warranty interested reply phillyg acs edu trades are welcome khoa nguyen
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	quantum lps hard disk phantom seeks quantum lps hard disk phantom seeks just purchased and installed quantum hard drive model lps and have concern about its behavior although the disk drive itself seems behave properly with respect file performs what call phantom seeks when the absolutely idle can hear spurt activity the drive every seconds lasting seconds this activity seems initiated strictly within the drive itself since the disk led never comes the disk led attached the disk controller card not the drive other hard disk seagate does not have this kind behavior can anyone comment this strange phenomenon steve harrold swh cup com hpg
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	modem have ibm clone with two serial ports com com and mouse port both the serial ports are directly sitting the mother board tried install buad hayes internal modem but doesnt work once dial any number the system locks not hear any click ring before the system hangs the modem has pin dip switch select the appropriate port once change the settings the dip switch the system starts working again then bought baud hayes external modem and checked the system works fine with both the serial ports the internal modem has been checked another machine and works fine but does not work machine can anyone please help find the problem thanks narm gadiraju ngadiraj infonode ingr com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scsi ide article iisakkil apr beta hut iisakkil beta hut mika iisakkila writes randy msc cornell edu writes all scsi cards for dos systems require separate device driver loaded into memory for each scsi device hooked all that seen have also board bios which enables you use hard drives directly under dos drives dos limitation and you have the same problem with ide and all other standards for that matter software drivers often allow for better performance though you have use them you want use other devices besides hard disks have more than disks the always among others requires drivers for scsi hard drives dos does not have drive maximum already have all done hardware there software drivers all
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help samtron interlaced non hello colleague has samtron monitor the manual cover says and for model numbers the manual does not specify interlaced non interlaced does anyone know what thanks mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet sdnet bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	quantum lps hard disk phantom seeks this normal behavior for these drives and many other models the drive doing recalibration adjusting for temperature changes you leave the machine the frequency the recalibrations goes way down
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	writing emm driver writing driver that needs remap some ports this means virtual mode unfortunately virtual mode means won get along with expanded memory managers need make emm driver too does anyone out there have emm code can any point emm code source thanks morgan morgan edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	chip graphics accelerator got card which made cardex yesterday and ran winmark test the card bus card which can display million colours mode with dram comes with window drivers and normal drivers the drivers handles colours also and supports hicolor and colours here winmark result running eisa bus system using hint chipsets winmark from lab using drivers megapixel sec using drivers colours from the result the drivers are specialized use the hardware feature the chip whereas the drivers are just normal driver for based graphics card the price this graphics card that got from local dealer may less from mail order has drivers comes with which supports colors all resolution from these results has double the performance based card colours mode philip sinn sinn carson washington edu university washington all opinions
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	 article btb austin ibm com lance hartmann austin ibm com lance har tmann writes article zgc rpi edu arnolm aix rpi edu matthew richard arnold writ would someone willing explain the mhz not more popular than would think would just fast not faster than the mhz for certian applications plus mhz motherboard would seem better you had any plans upgrading the chip the future must missing something since everyone buying the many adds don even mention the one the things going for the over the that clock speed complies with the vesa local bus spec lance hartmann lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com couple other problems with the system manufacturers had major problems solving the electromagnetic interference problems with systems getting fcc home use certification required additional shielding the system heat lot people seem installing heat sinks and cooling fans their chips would guess that the ran temperatures inside the case even hotter and heat the enemy system reliability any above opinions are the sole property the below named person edward jen ejen magnus acs ohio state edu academic computing services the ohio state university
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	consumer warning midwest micro ohio article jqm ebm usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu sam latonia writes must say that have been customer midwest micro for over years now and have been well taken care each purchase have had many friends that have bought that same modem and they have some experience with setting modems there have been problems them that know the fact that your time valuable for you spend the modem where you went wrong why you say because must tell you the yes say ppi modems that have had the past that was trying use bbs they all were junk and were replace times each ther point that just said forget and wanted money back ppi teck even said that they didn even repair them that they just strip the parts that are good and junk thr rest the modem think was more your fault than midwest mirco faulkt sam gosh think just installed virus was called dos don copy that floppy burn just love windows crash what ever happened the idea that the customer always right joe consider midwaste micro technique slapping their own name product misleading especially was not originally manufactured with that intent mind
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors nanao article eskimo com johnn eskimo com john navitsky writes hello been following discussions monitors comp sys ibm hardware and noted that the nanao seems get very good reviews interested getting more information about nanao products well some others that may fit the bill from the may computer shopper magazine nanao nanao tube manufacturer mitsubishi sony trinitron active screen size diag maximum resolution video bandwidth mhz min max vertcl scan rate khz min max horiz scan rate khz dot pitch sugg list price street price both have brightness contrast positioning size convergence and color front panel and digital also front panel degaussing control
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors nanao article wkx frv news iastate edu schauf iastate edu brian schaufenbuel writes what tube does the viewsonic use does support been looking philips which uses sony trinitron tube has digital controls supports and has dot pitch can found for under you mean the viewsonic uses matsushita tube the computer shopper review faults for having below average sharpness and for lacking some controls pincushioning degaussing convergence and color was the lowest priced monitor the test and did have good center edge focus
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	mhz standard won run windows turbo mode have standard computer mhz eisa tower with ram quantum hard drive and floppies and colorado tape drive also have sound blaster pro and com ethernet card installed the machine completely stable non turbo mode turbo mode windows for workgroups crashes won come all windows does come get general protection faults and divide zero system errors there problem with memory keeping with the speed the cpu these machines have tried reach standard computers but their phones have been disconnected does anyone know what happened this company yamohs yet another mail order horror story prefer mailed responses don get read this newsgroup often
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	headland video vramii ver upgrade info needed have headland technologies video seven vramii board that only came with the time this was but need info help with upgrading this board mbyte there are rows pins over the vram chips think for piggyback board vram would like hear from anyone that may able help upgrade this board maybe someone from headland who maybe read ing this has one these piggyback boards just laying around please please please does anyone know where could maybe buy the upgrade for this would sure love use this color mode but for the time being can only get the screen with the bottom part white strip obviously because the missing vram actually surprised even works this degree all last resort will wind selling this board and probably getting based dumb frame buffer this vramii was editors choice the mag anyone has any info please email last resort post this group thanks advance
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	 arnolm aix rpi edu matthew richard arnold writes chip the future must missing something since everyone buying the many adds don even mention the the mhz external bus speed provides hell for cache designs most the boards have too slow caches that make them effectively also someone else pointed out local bus boards are better off mhz bus speed the internal cache allows the generally faster anyway segmented memory helps structure software
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need esdi hdd for posessed system ahhhuuurrrrgggghhhh spinrite says sectors marked bad the fat initially returned active use new sectors marked bad following successive runs spinrite think need new esdi hdd controller know that these two will work dtc adaptec others that might work dtc ultra store you own one and will sell cheaply buy thanks greg bishop hydra gatech edu designing tommorow the night before with yesterday technology
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hawk motherboard has anybody ever heard hawk eisa vlb motherboards net computers international from computer shopper has the version cache for trying decide between this motherboard and the nice motherboard thanks the hawk motherboard has eisa slots two which are vlb the spec sounds identical the nice tim nyu edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway too high price gkoh athena mit edu glenn koh writes then again maybe for the gateway system isn too cheap have system from micron computers meg ram maxtor local bus ide meg video card and the same monitor the system with shipping came sold the chip that came with and bought total price think you got something wrong here you state that the system was then say that you sold the chip that came with this does not make sense scott linn scott hpcvccl com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	low emission monitors who besides nec hartzman kilroy jpl nasa gov les hartzman writes does anyone else make low radiation emission monitors besides nec how they compare necs quality and emission wise les hartzman hartzman kilroy jpl nasa gov jet propulsion laboratory oak grove pasadena les right now working mpr certified swedish standards for low emissions hitachi superscan monitor that res and got good write for image quality recent feb issue magazine far know very little fully matches nec image quality least according the mags can tell any difference between the two but think nec low emissions only one the two types there vlf very low frequency and elf think that extremely low frequency the mpr standards set strict limits both but many comapnies nec included according one article read get bunch mags hard for remember which which claim low emissions but not specifically mpr compliant mpr certified only control for one usually vlf and ignore the other the nec probably has higher overall image quality consis tently hear rated the best close the best but not low emissions the hitachi like image quality but for all know you may more discerning good luck mitch kcbp ubvms buffalo edu yeah got hitachi superscan from insight for
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway update just ordered system from gateway thanks for all the net discussions which helped decide among all the vendors and options right now the system includes ram the upgrade used cost additional mike yang silicon graphics inc mikey sgi com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	low emission monitors who besides nec article acsu buffalo edu kcbp ubvmsd buffalo edu mitch writes right now working mpr certified swedish standards for low emissions hitachi superscan monitor that res and got good write for image quality recent feb issue magazine far know very little fully matches nec image quality least according the mags can tell any difference between the two but think nec low emissions only one the two types there vlf very low frequency and elf think that extremely low frequency the mpr standards set strict limits both but many comapnies nec included according one article read get bunch mags hard for remember which which claim low emissions but not specifically mpr compliant mpr certified only control for one usually vlf and ignore the other nanao series and series monitors are mpr compliant according little pamphlet the series monitors are also tco compliant whatever that mike yang silicon graphics inc mikey sgi com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dbench due the large amount request for dbench finally can get dbench from ftp site the dbench cardex card with dram has superscape benchmark frames sec hope will satisfy people curiosity this performance what other benchmark program result you would want know philip sinn sinn carson washington edu university washington all opinions
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors nanao reply johnn eskimo com message apr gmt newsgroups comp sys ibm hardware comp sys amiga hardware comp sys sun hardware subject monitors nanao references eskimo com distribution text follows this line have nanao ipx prefer sun trinitron work with all those vertical jitters and the two horizontal shadowmask thingies got from one the folks advertising computer shopper for plus about shipping bought cable which goes from the sun connector the monitors xrgbs for about from macintosh mailorder shop relax technologies again happily chris shenton gsfc nasa gov nasa gsfc hstx
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	date stuck posted couple notes about encountering this problem based some suggestions from mark aitchison university canterbury new zealand and chris larrieu edu think that problem screen saver that also outputs sound speaker still looking some the other screen savers that use with randomizer but this one definately caused the loss several minutes over night but not the date this time barry sardis home laurie avenue office san jose fax email bsardis netcom com compuserve com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	com card shows com with com address and irq article cie genesis nred avinash genesis nred writes have internal modem that configure com with irq but when insert that card into dos shows com with irq and com address when get into debug and dump the data shows the address belonging com even though the modem should com this common misconception shared many manufacturers programmers and users alike com for example simply the third equipped comm port not necessarily the one with address the bios just searches sequentially through set potential comm port addresses the first equipped port finds will become com etc you playing the rules you can have com unless you have com equipped the set standard whatever that means port addresses merely reflects the order which the bios searches the address space its search for serial ports what you have indeed com the non standard address were this address the table slot instead programs which query the bios determine the number installed comm ports would not find the field the bios data area which contains this number would indicate that there are but comm ports installed frankly don know simgle program that would actually have problem with this bob nichols bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm att com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide zenith okay anyone have experiences good bad with replacing the mfm controller and drive with ide controller and drive zenith had heard some rumors about bus mastering problems some cpu board revisions shamus bride tecslm sdc boeing com boeing computer services tecslm sdc atc boeing com beaver bcsaic sdc tecslm
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what exactly the ibm made slc slc processor could someone please tell the slc and slc processors ibm putting their thinkpad and other real with math coprocessor really some kludge that should not called all thanks eric eric braeden der verstand war zwar praechtig ohio state university doch das nuetzte ende nicht viel ebraeden magnus acs ohio state edu peter schilling grad
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help wanted faults ide drives have ide drive and having few problems get data error drive messages when reading some files the problem also steadily getting worse have run some diagnostic software pctools and says that the drive but does have retry some sectors and briefly flashes error message which too quick read does anybody know any cheap free software which could mark these sectors bad dos doesn preferably perform low level format have heard that the latter possible ide technical answers would appreciated would nice able use the disk again running dos clone
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cpu fans article edm wrs com edm wrs com mcclanahan writes jim johnson abcd houghton jim johnson writes speaking cpu fans many use clips make sure you use heat sink grease heat transfering tape you will have wasted your money these cpu fans also have heat sinks you recommend using both the same chip heat sink sandwiched between cpu and fan are just talking about cpu fan blowing directly the cpu chip can see how heat sink grease necessary even desireable edward mcclanahan edm wrs com have power and cooling fan and heat sink with built fan that glues top the cpu even the fan quits you still have the heat sink fins aid cooling the glue course the type that has high thermal conductivity
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	comdex atlanta info wanted know this the wrong newsgroup but was wondering anyone knows the date this year comdex convention atlanta has passed already mail possible thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	tower without fan originally posted complaint about how noisy was got several useful suggestions but was the most seductive run your silence removing the fan altogether two variables always run without the cover and willing attach cpu cooler that would make difference should try run without fan know sounds like utter folly asking has anyone done this succesfully tragically you answer may save thanks alexander lerman alerman netcom com voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	strange disk behaviour have with western digital hard drive this drive cylinders with read write heads physically but logically cylinders with read write heads the cmos setting instructed set type ibm cyl read write heads the problem was sent western digitals ispfmt low level program from the manufacturer and was instructed run the hard drive with the cmos setting set type this worked and verified the disk using the same program then reloaded dos which did high level format again errors bad sectors etc but when run norton speedisk any other disk optimizer with the verify option set get error verifying sector nnnn where nnnn can any number not the same all the time any ideas what going here would appreciated thank you steve hamilton nbb dsacng dla mil
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	chips have motherboard that like speed rather not replace the whole motherboard instead like know can use mhz cpu the bios late model ami circa and the system crystal approx mhz question can just replace the original mhz cpu with the new cpu its possible will there need for extra cooling devices such heatsinks and muffin fans mike
comp.sys.mac.hardware	spigot iii article apr aristo tau isaaci ccsg tau barash isaac writes friend mine has problems running spigot iii his configuration spigot iii system video spigot extension would appriciate can get any postitive negative experience with this setup somebody comp multimedia was also having trouble using spigot his iii turned out needed the latest version screenplay which fixed things lawrence oliveiro fone computer services dept fax university waikato electric mail ldo waikato hamilton new zealand gmt
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerbook sleep init request someone asked there existed init that removes the dialog you gonna disconnect all apletalk users something like that when the powerbook falls asleep said was sure that such thing existed and thought was freeware can anyone help out with this btw where can get switch roo something the kind but schareware freeware
comp.sys.mac.hardware	need card for sony recently made the mistake purchasing sony cpd monitor for mac iici the monitor very good however seems that the iici does not support vga then why did you buy you ask stupid reply what looking for video card preferably bit which supports vga interested any information can get offers for the sale applicable cards will also considered thanks advance jim pyke
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerbook serial ports hello have question two about the serial ports for the powerbooks specifically the with system there difference between the serial ports the powerbooks versus any other mac say plus have heard though not confirmed apple that the serial ports have problems high speeds also heard that sys new power manager fixes this problem allowing speeds just any other serial port particular use that have evb board that need interface with powerbook via the modem port baud currently are interfacing using mac pluses set everything just lab and nothing fact the powerbook locks can anyone help inform advise would appreciate would prefer email since don read the news all will post summary enough response generated thanks faisal bhamani faceman ccwf utexas edu this topic has been discussed already please excuse and direct the appropriate places thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	buying high speed everything modem ejbehr cmp ilstu edu eric behr writes just quick summary recent findings high speed modems top three contenders seem paradyne zyxel and robotics zyxel has the biggest cult following and can had for under but ignored because need something with mac software which will work without any tweaking you shouldn have ignored the zyxel can purchased with mac bundle which includes hardware handshaking cable and faxstf software the bundle adds between and the price the modem depending the supplier true that the modem has mac specific docs but doesn require much tweaking aside from setting the init string enable hardware handshaking for more information the zyxel including sources look various files sumex aim stanford edu info mac report disclaimer have affiliation with zyxel though did buy zyxel modem
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iici rom offers bit clean rom for iix last week macweek article ric ford indicated that david ramsey mac iix has been running nicely with mac iici rom offering clean bit rom code liberating his iix from the virtual memory nightmare caused apple bit system enabler does anyone know source for these roms okay for remanufacturer resell only rom chips from used machines know that copies cannot made but seems that would okay resell the original used rom after all reselling used computer involves the sale the rom anyway what the difference needless say interested purchasing such rom what would reasonably price offer morgan davis group internet mdavis crash cts com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	ethernet card that uses rose apr csu edu mantolov golum riv csu edu michael antolovich writes article aaron bratcher fpm mac uchicago edu aaron bratcher fpm uchicago edu aaron bratcher writes does anyone know there ethernet card that takes advantage the rose extension hey what does the rose extension anyway newsgroups comp sys mac system from probulf informatik muenchen frank probul subject rose with centris and quadra models organization technische universitaet muenchen germany date mon apr gmt rose apple real time operating system environment this system extension for these nubus cards using the mcp macintosh coprocessor platform the mcp cards are nubus cards with motorola processor and ram expandable meg mcp development platform for hardware designers they can use card with own processor and thus the main processor isn needed for these cards currently the only cards know are the apple tokenring card the new apple ethernet card the apple nubus serial card perhaps there are some third party cards but don know frank probul emanuelstr munich germany applelink probul applelink apple com internet probulf informatik muenchen munich university technology department computer science germany
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iici rom offers bit clean rom for iix article mdavis crash cts com mdavis crash cts com morgan davis writes last week macweek article ric ford indicated that david ramsey mac iix has been running nicely with mac iici rom offering clean bit rom code liberating his iix from the virtual memory nightmare caused apple bit system enabler this would make bit suspect ramsey qualifications self styled expert fact when read about anybody using virtual memory regularly kind wonder yes one can sometimes get away with running newer rom the correct size obviously older machine but one should prepared for problems running software that checks for machine type rather than rom trap availability and then draws incorrect conclusions when special casing especially timing dependent and driver related stuff this particular case see reason the trouble rom swapping the apple bit enabler has problems but mode works just fine with and does anyone know source for these roms sure buy used iici motherboard call pre owned electronics shreve other parts dealers see the back computer shopper one the mac trades for phone numbers and ask for price iici rom everything has price you happen find somebody who salvaged iici with dead motherboard you might get decent price there probably market for used mother boards well they might sell rom anyway needless say interested purchasing such rom what would reasonably price offer ask for quote and then try offering less pre owned and shreve have been known dicker their ads various trade magazines often list considerably different prices for the same items and their phone quotes tend vary well still not aware any technical reason for upgrading the rom iix bill johnston johnston udel edu chambers street newark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris font problems recently got centris desk vast improvement previous machine iisi however encountered problem with fonts entries filemaker database which looked fine when printed from previous mac using system now look wierd spacing between characters has increased greatly causing lines truncated using plain and bold helvetica various sizes the increase character spacing seems occur for all sizes and styles using mixture truetype and fixed size fonts exactly iisi when things worked perfectly managed get similar behaviour using word apple adopted their usual friendly approach and told call our local dealer god help any ideas pete edwards department computing science king college university aberdeen tel aberdeen fax scotland email pedwards csd abdn artificial flowers pieces plastic and metal crudely fashioned bear limited superficial resemblance real flowers but with credible attempt match their internal complexity terms form function behavior artificial intelligence really smart computers
comp.sys.mac.hardware	performa have question which the diference between performa and lciii want know which better you know the specifications and the prices this computers can you tell email rcvillab isluga puc like know the diference between the apple monitor and the performa monitor too thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	new duo dock info article baa mizzou missouri edu mizzou missouri edu writes why little known fact that macs have cpu they are all connected via cellular network the cray supercomputer apple garage that right the same one where steve steve built the apple shannon silly you don you know the only division apple allowed use the cray the legal department gordon
comp.sys.mac.hardware	looking for magneto optical drive advice currently trying select which magneto optical drive purchase primarily looking drives although might consider ones when looking through macworld and macuser ads the prices for the drives seem range from just under for the dgr rem portable magic portable fujitsu nudesign from macdirect about for the fwb hammerdisk and mass microsystems datapak different drives use different mechanisms most fujitsu sony epson probably some others problem that after reading the nov macworld and apr macuser reviews these drives still not sure what get asking anyone has had good bad experiences with any drive can shed some light the wide range prices spending more really buying much reliability different drives compatibility between them anything else should probably know thanks john sasinowski
comp.sys.mac.hardware	personal ntr serial hookup can anyone tell the procedure for hooking personal laserwriter ntr serially mac the documentation says can done but not sure the correct switch setting use out the given non appletalk switch options also will need install new driver that the chooser knows the printer hooked directly not networked thanks lot ross
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how they compare article apr bmug org david schnider bmug org writes the real question here opinion what motorola processors running system mac are comparable what intel processors running windows recall there being conversation here that running windows benchmarks about the same speed mhz system don know that true but would love hear anyone has any technical data this david that seems about right have mac iisi with cache card running system roommate has running windows and from what seen iisi faster some operations others they are comparable but keep mind strictly speaking operations the desktop level windows and system not actual computational speed other programs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	duo price reduction someone mentioned while ago that the duos were scheduled for price reduction according newsbytes this definite does anyone know when will take effect and what newsbytes thanks cam daly phone internet cam athena mit edu memorial who fights and runs away cambridge lives nuke the site from orbit
comp.sys.mac.hardware	need modem software recommendation planning buying modem and related software what are some good products out there that won cost lot money but will still the job any help will appreciated looking for something the baud area kenneth kenneth david suzan internet kdsu ltd uhura rochester edu box wrur rochester cast weatherline university rochester rock from the reagan years
comp.sys.mac.hardware	selling powerbook have that might selling soon upgrade duo before graduation take advantage the educational discount those who have recently bought sold what kind price did you get info any config appreciated thanks cam daly phone internet cam athena mit edu memorial who fights and runs away cambridge lives nuke the site from orbit
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how they compare david schnider bmug org wrote the real question here opinion what motorola processors running system mac are comparable what intel processors running windows stuff deleted david even better than that how does based amiga perform daily tasks compared based iici answer except very few cases get butt kicked the amiga sure there are other considerations but goes show you how proper design from the beginning hardware and software can give you great returns well showing you that you don have marketing department speak one will care how good your system still happy with but don understand why the performance bad comparatively they could have done multi tasking properly they could have done everthing else better but apple didn course dos and windows are nothin write home about either well all got worth for the price peter pundy email jeff lab queensu got witty wisdom share but have nice day anyway
comp.sys.mac.hardware	networking macs and work have small appletalk network with macs and couple printers also have that has some specialized accounting software that would like operate from any the macs have soft and have found that the software works just fine under but would like have all the data for the program reside one place the hard disk question for you actually questions there board for the that will allow you hook into appletalk network possible there any software hardware combination that will allow mount the hard disk networked disk the macs can use soft run the application impossible there any other way accomplish what after chris parrish university oklahoma share split cmparris essex ecn uoknor edu kmfdm
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac plus constantly rebooting tae shin tshin husc harvard edu wrote basically the mac pluses are constantly rebooting themselves the reboot button were being pushed sometimes the mac able fully boot and display the desktop but only matter time before reboots again times the frequency high several times minute wonder your mac has those little reset interupt switches installed they are plastic devices that push the switches which are inside the mac mabey those switches are bad and need replacing wish caught the original post but anyway the problem that the plus poor old power supply sometimes referred the analog sweep board its way out apart from board swap bikkies apple there not much the average joe can fix you can course try and adjust the voltage levels the rail should close you get but this more often than not temporary fix copy larry pina macntosh repair upgrade secrets worthwhile investment for the serious yaself geoff peters mididoc cola flash pax tpa com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how they compare guess the real question who asked the original questions and why was broad are talking pure processing power what kind processing btw isolated from every other factor and influence the system are shopping for home computer based the cpu specs yuck just finished project that involves real time processing serial data and discovered that the programming interface assembly has lot with the power cpu particular application what you want easy code with the instruction set given then not only easy but cheap and quick you have fake things like resolving indirection without lea instruction then your cycle count goes through the roof well let not start flame war about whose computer better than whose the orginal question was about classifying micro processors having read the entire thread don think much more can said without getting down into specific proposed systems with important details given that for another cheers everyone peter pundy email jeff lab queensu got witty wisdom share but have nice day anyway
comp.sys.mac.hardware	good hard disk driver for non apple drives sys compat article jartsu apr hut jartsu hut jartsu wrote there what your recommendation for good hard disk driver software for non apple drives would mainly need for syquest removable media drive but maybe for some normal drives too fwb distributes hdt personal edition hdt hard drive toolkit which what own this less fancy than the full version but good enough for what you and want casa blanca offers drive but not that familiar with think that both drive and hdt can had for around used silverlinging work and like hdt much better imho has better interface and easier understand any drive users james
comp.sys.mac.hardware	when apple going ship baf umcc umcc umich edu dlc umcc umcc umich edu david claytor writes btw heard that the system install can used boot the mac however drive will not accept caddy the machine off how can you boot with then the supplemental manual that comes with the quadra explains don have the manual front but recall you insert the while the machine running select restart from the special menu and then hold down special sequence keys force boot from the instead the hard disk think the key combination command option delete command ctrl del
comp.sys.mac.hardware	calling all mac gurus article qvs usenet ins cwru edu charles cox cox snowhite eeap cwru edu writes put vram simms quadra the slots closest the ram simm slots and got results whatsoever does make any difference which slots you put the simms the vram simms the slots the back closest the power supply david gutierrez drg biomath mda uth tmc edu only fools are positive moe howard
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra startup out monitor right article apr tdb mats bredell udac writes shawn fitzgerald chungkuo umcc umcc umich edu wrote there fix for this have quadra that will not finish startup unless there monitor connected this would problem but since running file server there need have monitor connected all the time seen control panel made for this don remember the name where saw what quadra models will work but know exists mats mats bredell mats bredell udac uppsala university computing center udac department medical systems fax sweden think straight gay will poke around the archives and see find something anyone else finds this please post the location horsefeathers shawn fitzgerald umcc computing club michigan chungkuo umcc umich edu whether you are quiet and alive quiet and dead makes difference cerebus
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac oriented bbss also interested mac based bbs but not chicago would greatly appreciate someone could post list bbss the area preferably but also thanks dan
comp.sys.mac.hardware	computer component source inc phone number would like know the regular international phone number computer supplier called computer component source their free phone number this number use customers outside the wish upgrade the power supply couple mac plus computers and would like make contact with computer component source bruce muschamp crop and food research srchbgm chv lincoln cri
comp.sys.mac.hardware	asante ethernet adapter for lciii math chip have been told local sales that asante has come out with this lciii pds ethernet adapter with optional socket the board question will the fpu performance degrade will put the the pds card socket instead the motherboard itself intuitively the math processor should always placed close the cpu but not sure how good apple called processor direct slot when comes throughout does anyone know the answer this have any experience with the asante lciii ethernet adapter thanks advance andy andy sun andy utoronto taddle creek road toronto computing coordinator ontario canada department industrial engineering phone university toronto fax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pin out imagewriter serial port could some kind soul please mail copy the pinout for the serial connector imagewriter printer have one that like hook and seems that nobody sells the proper cables anymore problem can make one but need know the pinout first thanks advance joel kolstad kolstad cae wisc edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	harddrive does anyone out there know how add additional internal hard drive mac iisi not replace the already existing hardrive was think hooking internal drive together any other ways add internal harddrive beside replacement just don wanadd external harddrive open any suggestions please response the address below thanks internet yolo utkvx utk edu bitnet yolo utkvx
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra startup out monitor right article umcc umcc umich edu chungkuo umcc umcc umich edu shawn fitzgerald wrote article apr tdb mats bredell udac writes shawn fitzgerald chungkuo umcc umcc umich edu wrote there fix for this have quadra that will not finish startup unless there monitor connected this would problem but since running file server there need have monitor connected all the time seen control panel made for this don remember the name where saw what quadra models will work but know exists mats mats bredell mats bredell udac uppsala university computing center udac department medical systems fax sweden think straight gay will poke around the archives and see find something anyone else finds this please post the location think found what your looking for ftp apple com the dts mac sys soft video directory and called virtual monitor switch hope this helps charles kuehmann northwestern university steel research group
comp.sys.mac.hardware	serial pinout connect sorry this must faq but quick fix that need take care before demo less than hours from now couldn think better place for rapid answer than comp sys mac hardware need connect the serial compac the printer port mac iici does anyone have handy the pin pin routing for the cable that would allow this connection the serial port the compaq male how would this map the din the mac serial tried one those really short femaledb maledin cables that apple sold adaptors plug macintosh serial peripherals from the pre macplus era this cable didn need null modem adaptor well the side things just need able map the data and pins correctly thanks kindly atau tanaka tanaka ircam
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how expand ram plus have mac plus with ram have just bought extra that can have the max ram that plus supports however can get boot after install the extra simms instead get sad mac sorry but can remember the code looking the motherboard can see that resistors have been snipped off where says path row assume that was done when the first simms were added question are there any other resistors that need snipping have bum simms which need exchanged any and all advice will appreciated chris gatenby gatenb mrisun med yale edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac plus constantly rebooting basically the mac pluses are constantly rebooting themselves the reboot button were being pushed sometimes the mac able fully boot well this threads been going long enough add diferent twist found that the constant rebooting was due overheating had added ram and were operating non environment adding external cooling fan fixed right over year ago george jefferson george mech seas upenn edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	logitec hand scan mac have logitech grays hand scanner from wondering anyone has been successful connecting the scanner mac has the same connector and serial device the can imagine the pins coniguration would need changeed but not sure the signal levels would correct and the mac would work with course the manuals say nothing about the interface connector layout anything ish any ideas thanx steve
comp.sys.mac.hardware	duo price reduction article vinnt senator bedfellow mit edu cam athena mit edu daniel cameron daly writes someone mentioned while ago that the duos were scheduled for price reduction according newsbytes this definite does anyone know when will take effect and what newsbytes thanks already happened far know got some email about three weeks ago saying was coming and sure enough week after that the duos dropped price think the duo now around the educational prices have dropped and imagine others well but haven really checked around since boycott the local necrocenter for reasons that extend over the past years
comp.sys.mac.hardware	asante ethernet adapter for lciii math chip article syk utoronto andy utoronto andy sun writes have been told local sales that asante has come out with this lciii pds ethernet adapter with optional socket the board question will the fpu performance degrade will put the the pds card socket instead the motherboard itself intuitively the math processor should always placed close the cpu but not sure how good apple called processor direct slot when comes throughout does anyone know the answer this have any experience with the asante lciii ethernet adapter thanks advance andy andy sun andy utoronto taddle creek road toronto computing coordinator ontario canada department industrial engineering phone university toronto fax believe the fpu the lciii always supposed the logic board not the pds board have heard crashing problems with pds based fpus the lciii asante may have fixed them but why bother why bother building lciii card with fpu anyway the extra circuitry gives the card one more chance fail say fpu main logic board socket ethernet alone pds card slot mark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	duo price reduction article vinnt senator bedfellow mit edu cam athena mit edu daniel cameron daly wrote someone mentioned while ago that the duos were scheduled for price reduction according newsbytes this definite does anyone know when will take effect and what newsbytes local stores have already reduced prices most duo configurations although apple dropped the list price dan
comp.sys.mac.hardware	bit lcii there any third party video ram adapter for vewing bit color lcii heard that apple selling aroung please mail thanks young youyj mace purdue edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	jump starting mac article apr microsoft com cckch microsoft com kenneth charlton writes apple dealerships once had kits replace the soldered batteries with battery holder real easy install but does require some soldering yes points really big holes which are fairly clear most the other stuff the board you can replace the battery you can install the battery holder matthew russotto russotto eng umd edu russotto wam umd edu some news readers expect disclaimer here just say police searches and seizures make them use force not responsible for bodily harm resulting from following above advice
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how you use dat tape backup have access dec tlz dec dat tape backup what need interface the tape backup the tape backup scsi will norton utilities sufficient interface the two jason yow human factors psychology program wright state university dayton mail jyow desire wright edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	selling powerbook article aaainnt senator bedfellow mit edu cam athena mit edu daniel cameron daly writes have that might selling soon upgrade duo before graduation take advantage the educational discount those who have recently bought sold what kind price did you get info any config appreciated thanks cam daly cam several months ago bought with external floppy appletalk remote access kensington case and adapter with complete documentation and almost new condition used for considered very good buy and very cosy with little baby now murray murray altheim ils ont orteil bouc chevreil oreille instructional consultant corne chamois face vermeille csu sacramento comme rouge croissant dancent toute nuict altheimm csus edu dedans carrefour pres une eau qui bruict
comp.sys.mac.hardware	when apple going ship article baf umcc umcc umich edu dlc umcc umcc umich edu david claytor writes system install kodak photo sampler alice ocean cdrom titles application demos mozart dissonant quartet nautilus apple chronicles assume they get the titles above plus cinderella and the games demo cdrom external just arrived has plus cinderella game demo derek pinghua pinghua young department economics pinghua econ berkeley edu university california berkeley pinghua econ ucbcmsa bitnet berkeley california qnf
comp.sys.mac.hardware	dat drives kelly roy heth kheth uhunix uhcc hawaii edu wrote hey about purchase dat drive does anyone know which mail order vendors offer dat drives with mechanism what other mechanism available out there good bad points bought one from relax technologies big mistake the drive had some jumpers set incorrectly didn work first and the software they shipped with was incompatable with the drive was the new compression model and worst all when opened the drive fiddle with the jumpers found the inside the case covered with metal filings sorry shout apparently when they drilled the mounting holes the case they forgot clean before putting the drive this was drive the way and now working fine knock wood thanks relax technologies hey your mileage may vary but let suggest that you not buy from relax technologies even though their prices are usually about the lowest dave dave schwarze schwarze delphi nosc mil next mail schwarze isenext saic com opinions expressed are just that
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac for sale for sale apple macintosh ram hdd fdd applecolor res rgb monitor keyboard mouse microphone kensington masterpiece mac running system all documentation and manuals symantec greatworks mac tools deluxe loaded hdd all disks and manuals included all hardware mint condition used total minutes there absolutely nothing wrong with this system just can get used mac after using shipping costs non negotiable also option only the person who purchases the above apple stylewriter printer with accessory kit brand new never used factory sealed carton shipping costs reply via mail david morgan hal ann arbor and leave phone number fast call voice mail faster serious inquiries only please first come first served this was originally posted this conference couple weeks ago but the first buyer couldn finance the purchase and accidentally killed all other replies sorry hal bbs qwk usenet gateway four bis dial ins free usenet mail and newsgroups pcboard uupcb kmail call member eff asp asad disk serving ann arbor since
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii logic board work purchased lciii recently and had heard bit about work the logic board opened mine and found the same work with small chip glued the board and couple green wires running from two other chips like know more about could anyone with any all the following information please post thanks bunch what does the work accomplish what does fix what are the technical details the work looking for things such the purpose the chips with the new wires connected and the pin outs for those chips board with the work any different functionally from one without could the worked boards incompatible with future releases the operating system and finally should even concerned about any this keith folsom folsom cup portal com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	this swim iwm used live and marked and the roms that with are this the solution the person who wants upgrade fdhd cheers mike
comp.sys.mac.hardware	imagewriter problem urgent help needed daughter has and imagewriter worked well until yesterday now when she tries print from macwrite acta the printing message comes but not printing bought new cable still printing moved cable modem port still printing dos person and don know where begin are there diagnostics for mac
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris video problem having also horton what sps mot com david horton writes cleveland freenet edu david kantrowitz writes when the computer set for colors and certain operations are done particularly vertical scrolling through window horizontal white lines appear the monitor which generally but not always spare open windows these lines accummulate the operation continued window moved over the involved area the screen and then moved away the line disappear from that area the screen this problem not observed the monitor configured for colors inch apple monitor with colors used has anyone not had these problems the given configurations that would help eliminate design flaw the explanation data point using centris with the apple monitor and not have these problems can produce similar artifacts using centris with apple monitor got the configuration there board ethernet and megabyte video ram the effect only occurs color and grey modes any vertical scrolling operation whether with scrollbar say using and inserting lines will produce scattering horizontal flickering lines the screen they not persist each visible for perhaps one refresh and then that part the screen back usual they seem always start about the pixel from the left and are maybe pixels wide this certainly not preventing from using macintosh but does seem sign something perhaps grounded incorrectly the video circuitry went ahead and called the apple customer assistance center more direct the person who answered was polite also took the chance complain about mouse button sticking and about the mac hanging boot after hard killed macsbug crash which left the drive had play with paperclip for about minutes get thing eject after which the mac booted fine garth dickie dickie math wisc edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	slowdowns currently managing among many other labs lab with three iis mac plus with external and laserwriter ntx problem the iis seem intermittently slow snail pace these iis have ram vram and quantum installed have reformatted the drive with hard disk toolkit and gives very respectable overall rating this drive not the drive have reinstalled system word works and all from the master disks short have done everything can think software not hardware hacker though pop cases fairly often but nothing works the problem intermittent and unpredictable the mouse always moves smoothly floppies always run the same speed but occasionally for about hours time machine will run like was running mhz not mhz very frustrating and makes nearly unusable does seem worsen with increasing disk activity has anyone encountered this problem before has anyone got any ideas they would much appreciated andrew geweke douce tfsquad org andrew geweke the firing squad bbs public access usenet mail and news saint paul minnesota
comp.sys.mac.hardware	system ernest stalnaker jcs sage purdue edu pur sage jcs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	check your purchase was dat drives schwarze delphi nosc mil david schwarze writes bought one from relax technologies big mistake the drive had some jumpers set incorrectly didn work first and the software they shipped with was incompatable with the drive was the new compression model and worst all when opened the drive fiddle with the jumpers found the inside the case covered with metal filings sorry shout apparently when they drilled the mounting holes the case they forgot clean before putting the drive this was drive the way and now working fine knock wood thanks relax technologies have found that you should observe the following with almost all new equipment check for warrany tape none carefully open unit inspect for loose wires jumpers screws and other trash clean these manufacturing mistakes now power the unit and check out can think how many things bought that weren okay right out the box due sloppy jonathan this goes for any manufacturer not picking anyone internet musjndx gsusgi gsu edu fidonet jonathan deitch jdeitch gisatl fidonet org bellnet atlanta play pinball don panic hate when can trust own technology thrills chills magic prizes hurricane geordi laforge gene roddenberry isaac asimov jim henson seuss mel blanc sigh
comp.sys.mac.hardware	system lines ernest stalnaker jcs sage purdue edu pur sage jcs nice train wait this mac hardware does have mac
comp.sys.mac.hardware	computer repairs does anyone out there know where some one can become educated the art repairing macintosh computers also how does one gain the prestige being refered authorized apple service person has anyone out there actually done any this maybe even know someone who did would appreciate any and all comments this subject ben roy internet american edu pcs poor college student
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cache card for iisi ran speedometer tests all them iisi first with the cache enabled then with the cache disabled put both runs this uuencoded machine record the numbers favor the cache mostly for benchmarks with lot memory throughput eric stadtherr help room consultant durham storms sage with smile upon face home ames never want leave this place gnr
comp.sys.mac.hardware	system macintosh iifx cannot run multifinder beeps friend has macintosh iifx which running system not enough memory yet run sys adequately and noticed that when tries use multifinder this machine the machine will beep every few seconds incessantly nonstop now this friend has tendency install things his machine rather haphazardly but did rebuild his system from scratch and still occurs does this problem sound familiar all anyone for all know the problem caused something really obscure but this known simple thing yeah right that someone familiar with like system multifinder doesn run mac iifx someone here knows what should looking for please send mail either him smh vaxf acdnj itt com thanx advance digging the dirt stay with need support digging the dirt find the places got hurt rich rosen open the places got hurt rlr panix com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	introductory macintosh frequently asked questions faq archive name macintosh general faq version last modified april copyright elliotte harold changes where can ftp macintosh software added the ftp site anl anl what bin hqx cpt image etc disk doubler will decode packit archives binhex will decode macbinary files not stuffit files the last version erroneously indicated added the question how can get binhex stuffit etc from comp sys mac faq part introduction the macintosh newsgroups introduction how use this document what other information available which newsgroup should post someone just asked why the system was taking sixteen megabytes their iicx shouldn display knowledge the world posting the seventeenth response their question ftp where can ftp macintosh software can get shareware mail where can find application can someone mail application what bin hqx cpt image etc how can get binhex stuffit etc how can get binhex stuffit etc from iii troubleshooting what when things wrong identify the problem read the read file check for viruses reinstall the application and all its support files reinstall the system software isolate the problem contact technical support preventive maintenance trash unneeded files reevaluate your extensions rebuild the desktop zap the pram and reset the clock resize the system heap reinstall the system software disk utilities backing disk defragmentation reformatting and partitioning your hard disk other faq lists currently available comp sys mac system memory why system using much memory what mode the bit enabler need them cache and carry how much memory should allot cache system software why does apple charge for system what does system give for that system doesn where can get system how can use system system only mac non scripts and systems what system tuneup need why disappear when turn multifinder need system how can get system disks iii hard disks filesharing and the file system help folder disappeared why can throw this folder away why can share removable drive why can eject this syquest cartridge rom etc why can rename hard disk miscellaneous what does system error xxx mean what type error what rose easy access one answer many questions comp sys mac misc viruses help have virus reporting new viruses printing and postscript how make postscript file how print postscript file why won postscript file print mainframe printer why are postscript files big how can print postscript non postscript printer how make imagewriter print color why doesn printmonitor work with the imagewriter why did document change when printed how can preview postscript file how edit postscript file iii dos and the mac how can move files between mac and how can translate files dos format should buy softpc real security how can prevent users from changing the contents folder how can password protect mac particular place miscellaneous miscellanea are there any good books about the mac how take picture the screen how use picture for desktop can replace the welcome macintosh box with picture what autodoubler spacesaver more disk space are they safe how they compare timestwo stacker and edisk where did icons where can find user group this work copyright elliotte harold permission hereby granted distribute this unmodified document provided that fee excess normal line charges required for such distribution portions this document may extracted and quoted free charge and without necessity citation normal line communication provided only that said quotes are not represented the correspondent original work permission for quotation this document printed material and edited line communication such the info mac digest and tidbits given subject normal citation procedures you have say where you got disclaimer best ensure that information contained this document current and accurate but can accept responsibility for actions resulting from information contained herein this document provided and with warranty any kind corrections and suggestions should addressed erh tesla njit edu apple macintosh laserwriter imagewriter finder hypercard and multifinder are registered trademarks and powerbook trademark apple computer inc linotronic registered trademark linotype hell inc postscript registered trademark and illustrator and photoshop are trademarks adobe systems inc microsoft registered trademark microsoft corporation pagemaker registered trademark aldus corp autodoubler and diskdoubler are trademarks fifth generation systems inc stuffit and stuffit deluxe are trademarks raymond lau and aladdin systems inc stuffit spacesaver trademark aladdin systems inc more disk space trademark alysis software corporation timestwo trademark golden triangle computers inc unix registered trademark all other tradenames are trademarks their respective manufacturers this the first part the this faq the second part posted comp sys mac system and features many questions about system software the third part posted every two weeks comp sys mac misc tables contents for those two pieces are included above please familiarize yourself with all three sections this document before posting all pieces are available for anonymous ftp from rtfm mit edu the directory pub usenet news answers macintosh except for this introductory faq which appears multiple newsgroups and stored general faq the name each file has the format the last part the group name followed faq the faq for comp sys mac system stored system faq and the faq for comp sys mac misc stored misc faq rtfm stores files compressed binary files you leave off the the end the file name when getting the file rtfm will automatically decompress the file before sending you you can also have these files mailed you sending mail message mail server rtfm mit edu with the line send pub usenet news answers macintosh name the body text where name the name the file you want specified above general faq you can also send this server message with the subject help for more detailed instructions have question congratulations you come the right place usenet wonderful resource for information ranging from basic questions how lock floppy disk queries that would make steve jobs himself run screaming from the room terror used resedit remove resources init wdef and nvir from system file and used the hex editor add code string patch the sfgetfile routine the standard file dialog box would nice shade mauve everything worked fine until installed supercdevblaster and now when use the aldus driver print from pagemaker linotronic system hangs running system powerbook since the macintosh newsgroups are medium high volume ask that you first peruse this faq list including least the table contents for the other pieces check any other relevant line resources listed below question especially the faq lists for the other macintosh newsgroups and rtfm read the friendly manual before posting your question realize that you are personally incensed that the system taking fourteen your newly installed twenty megs ram but this question has already made its way around the world three hundred times before and developing tired feet finally before posting any newsgroup macintosh otherwise please familiarize yourself with the basic etiquette usenet described the newsgroup news announce newusers how use this document where can get comp sys mac faq currently divided into multiple pieces general introduction which you reading now and specific lists for the newsgroups comp sys mac system and comp sys mac misc faq lists for comp sys mac wanted comp sys mac apps and comp sys mac hardware are development when ready each part will available its respective newsgroup all pieces are available via anonymous ftp from rtfm mit edu the pub usenet news answers macintosh directory except for this document itself which named general faq the pieces are named per the last part the newsgroup they cover followed faq system faq misc faq the means the file stored compressed you need ftp binary mode and use either maccompress stuffit deluxe the unix uncompress command decompress however you leave off the extension when you get the file rtfm will automatically decompress the file before sending you this introductory document posted all the concerned newsgroups the tables contents for each the specific faq lists are the beginning this file you should able get least some idea whether your question answered anywhere else the faq even you don have the other parts hand not always obvious especially newcomers where particular question comment should posted please familiarize yourself with the faq lists all the major macintosh newsgroups before posting any them which questions appear which faqs can serve basic guide what posts belong where jump particular question search for section number question number enclosed parentheses for example find where can ftp macintosh software search for the string jump section instead question use zero for the question number what other information available comp sys mac faq provides short answers number frequently asked questions appropriate for the usenet newsgroup comp sys mac misc and comp sys mac system four other files are worthy particular note daryl spitzer maintains faq list covering macintosh programming for the newsgroup comp sys mac programmer posted that group weekly and available for anonymous ftp from ftp uoregon pub mac eric rosen maintains frequently asked questions list for comp sys mac comm available that newsgroup and from rascal ics utexas edu mac faq where the file you reading now also irregularly archived this list answers many frequently asked questions about networking unix and the mac telecommunications and foreign file formats norm walsh has compiled excellent faq for comp fonts that answers lot questions about the various kinds fonts and cross platform conversion and printing available comp fonts ftp from ibis umass edu pub norm comp fonts faq finally jim jagielski maintains faq for comp unix aux covering apple unix environment posted every weeks comp unix aux and news answers available for anonymous ftp jagubox gsfc nasa gov which newsgroup should post there are stupid questions but there are misplaced ones you wouldn ask your english teacher how the definite integral between zero and one would you don ask the programmer newsgroup why your system slow when microsoft word the background ignorance basic netiquette not excuse you want people help you you need learn their ways communicating posting questions the proper newsgroup will fill your mailbox with pearls wisdom and maybe few rotten oysters too posting the wrong newsgroup often engenders thundering silence for instance the most common and glaring mispost one that seems incongruous dwellers the macintosh regions usenet would purple elephant aleuts the arctic asking question about networking anywhere except comp sys mac comm normally produces useful responses posting the same question comp sys mac comm ensures that your post read and considered dozens experienced network administrators and not few network software designers please post exactly one newsgroup not cross post question isn important enough for you take the extra minute figure out where properly belongs not important enough for several thousand people spend their time reading for the same reason comp sys mac misc should not used catch all newsgroup the breakdown questions between different newsgroups this document can also serve reasonable guide what belongs where specifically questions about productivity applications software you bought your macintosh run not software you bought make your macintosh run better should comp sys mac apps unless the application covered more specific newsgroup communications programs games hypercard compilers and databases all have more topical comp sys mac newsgroups post questions about non communications hardware including questions about what software necessary make particular hardware work comp sys mac hardware questions about macos system software belong comp sys mac system questions about utilities and extensions normally belong comp sys mac misc questions about comp unix aux detailed questions about appletalk belong comp protocols appletalk direct questions about hypercard comp sys mac hypercard non hypercard programming questions and questions about development environments should comp sys mac programmer resedit questions may posted either comp sys mac misc comp sys mac system comp sys mac programmer but generally the netters who inhabit the darker recesses comp sys mac programmer are considerably more practiced the art resource hacking general exception the above rules that any very technical question about application that actually begins delve into the how program well the what recent example how does writenow which written entirely assembly compare other word processors written high level languages might better addressed the programmer newsgroup for sale and want buy posts should comp sys mac wanted and misc forsale computers mac only understand that you desperate sell your upgraded mac get the for powerbook but trust anyone who wants buy will reading comp sys mac wanted political and religious questions the mac better than windows not too not too hey how bout the amiga what about not too belong comp sys mac advocacy anything not specifically mentioned above probably belongs comp sys mac misc finally don provincial consider only the comp sys mac newsgroups the appropriate forums for your questions many questions about modems comp sys mac comm are much more thoroughly discussed comp dcom modems questions about mac midi are often better handled comp music even though not macintosh specific newsgroup shop around usenet big place and not everything relevant the macintosh happens comp sys mac someone just asked why the system was taking sixteen their twenty megabytes ram shouldn put brilliance and wit display for the world posting the seventeenth response frequent answers are just boring and uninteresting frequent questions unless you really have something new add the traditional answers such the recent discovery that fonts system could eat memory private mail much better medium for answering common questions like this one you might want add mention this faq your mail response and polite suggestion that your correspondent read before posting future questions read all the newsgroups covered here and have written small script microphone that lets send pwfaq people with frequently asked questions the section this document that answers their question with just the click button please don feel obligated respond someone who cares little about the answer their question they can troubled read the faq list get ftp where can ftp mac software the three major north american internet archives shareware freeware and demo software are sumex aim stanford edu mac archive umich edu and wuarchive wustl edu which mirrors the other two sites and several others wuarchive often holds files after other sites remove them for space concerns and still has files that were deleted from the formerly important site rascal ics utexas edu rascal was notable for storing its files macbinary format rather than the less efficient binhex format common the other archives unless otherwise noted shareware and freeware mentioned this document should available the above sites keep traffic the internet manageable scandinavians should try connecting ftp funet ftp lth sics instead those the should look first src doc continental europeans can try nic switch ezinfo ethz and anl anl australian users should try find what they want archie which mirrors info mac and mac archive japanese users will find sumex mirrored ftp tokyo fourth very important site ftp apple com this apple semi official repository for system software developer tools source code technical notes and other things that come more less straight from apple mouth some material this site may not distributed outside the other sites that don have official license distribute apple system software please read the various readme documents available ftp apple com for the detailed info you connecting from outside the you wish redistribute material you find here can get shareware mail the info mac archives sumex aim are available mail from listserv ricevm bitnet alternately listserv ricevm rice edu the listserver responds the commands macarch help macarch index and macarch get filename mac archive files are available from mac mac archive umich edu send message containing the words help and index quotes the first two lines your message for instructions getting started and list the files you may request you can retrieve files from other sites using the server ftpmail decwrl dec com for details send message with just the text help quotes where can find application you can find what you looking for one the above sites try telnetting your nearest archie server sending mail message addressed archie with the subject help archie servers are located archie rutgers edu america archie mcgill the original archie server canada archie australia archie funet scandinavia and archie doc the and the continent these sites index the tens thousands files available for anonymous ftp login archie password needed and type prog filename find what you looking for type help for more detailed instructions for instance you would type prog disinfectant search for convenient ftp site for disinfectant the initial search fails turn the file you want try variations and substrings the name for instance you didn find disinfectant with prog disinfectant you might try prog disi instead substring searches often hide the gold pile dross avoid many erroneous matches add hqx the end the substring prog disi hqx most mac software available the net ends hqx but almost unix software does please check the above archives and archie personally before asking where you can find particular piece shareware you follow the above advice you should almost never have ask the net where find particular piece software can someone mail application nor will anyone mail you part file from comp binaries mac that was corrupt missed your site please refer the first questions this section find out about anonymous ftp archie and automatic mail servers what bin hqx cpt etc most files available ftp are modified twice allow them more easily pass through foreign computer systems first they compressed make them faster download and then they translated either binhex hqx macbinary bin format that other computers can digest the macintosh uses special two fork filing system that chokes most other computers binhex files are bit ascii text files while macbinary files are pure bit binary data that must always transferred using binary protocol how file has been translated and compressed for transmission indicated its suffix normally file will have name something like filename xxx yyy xxx indicates how was compressed and yyy indicates how was translated use file you ftp and downloaded your mac you need reverse the process most files you get from the net require two step decoding process first change the binhex hqx macbinary bin file double clickable macintosh file then decompress which programs decode which file types covered the table below also note that most macintosh telecommunications programs will automatically convert macbinary files regular macintosh files they are downloaded suffix sit cpt hqx bin pit image zip tar extractors stuffit compact pro packit uutool maccompress suntar binhex binhex diskdoubler unzip diskcopy macutil few notes the decompressors stuffit family products that use several different compression schemes the freeware stuffit expander will unstuff all them versions stuffit earlier than stuffit stuffit classic unstuffit and stuffit deluxe and will not unstuff the increasing number files stuffed stuffit you need get more recent version stuffit stuffit expander stuffit lite and deluxe consistently makes smaller archives than any other macintosh compression utility allow maximum space for files the various ftp sites and keep net bandwidth down please compress all files you send anonymous ftp sites with stuffit uutool maccompress and suntar handle the popular unix formats uuencode compress and tar tar respectively the unix versions are often more robust than the mac products use them instead when that option translators that allow stuffit lite expand uuencoded and tar files are also available anonymous ftp macutil dik winter package unix utilities decompress and debinhex files workstation before downloading them mac since unix stores files differently than does the mac macutil creates macbinary bin files which should automatically converted download can decompress everything particular can decompress the new stuffit archives however you need only one two files out archive for instance you want read the readme find out program does what you need before you download all macutil indispensable can found sumex aim the info mac unix directory few notes the compression formats bin these are macbinary files always use binary file transfer protocol when transferring them never ascii text most files the net are stored hqx instead only rascal stores most its files bin format most communications programs such zterm and mackermit are capable translating macbinary files the fly they download they know advance they downloading macbinary files image this format normally used only for system software that line users can download files that can easily converted into exact copies the installer floppies instead using diskcopy restore the images floppies you can use steve christensen freeware utility mountimage treat the images your hard disk actual floppies inserted floppy drive mountimage has reputation for being buggy you should have some blank floppies and copy diskcopy handy just case sea sea files don merit position the above table because they self extracting they may have been created with compact pro stuffit even diskdoubler but all should capable decompressing themselves when double clicked for some unknown reason alysis has chosen not use this industry standard designation for self extracting archives created with their payware products superdisk and more disk space instead they append either self extracting archives how can get binhex stuffit etc far the easiest way get these programs ask human being copy them onto floppy for you you university there absolutely excuse for not finding someone give you copy and you anywhere less remote than mcmurdo sound chances are very good that someone computer center dealership user group can provide you with copy stuffit once you have stuffit any version you don need binhex you such computer geek that the thought actually asking living breathing human being instead computer terminal for something turns you into quivering mass protoplasmic jelly you can probably download working copy stuffit from local bulletin board system you have religious objections software gotten any means other than anonymous ftp then suppose mention that you can fact ftp working copy stuffit though this far the hardest way get ftp wuarchive wustl edu and login type the word binary hit return type mirrors rascal ics utexas edu compression and hit return then get stuffit expander sea bin and hit return course always possible that the time you read this stuffit expander will have been updated and the name changed this fails look for something similar you ftp straight onto your mac you should now have self extracting archive which will produce working copy stuffit expander when double clicked you ftp your mainframe unix account first you still need use modem program download your mac just make sure that the mac receiving macbinary mode and the mainframe sending binary mode you need more details the last step consult the faq list for comp sys mac comm and the manuals for both your mainframe and macintosh telecommunications software how can get binhex stuffit etc from you can there absolutely way get executable macintosh file from ftp site onto and then onto your mac without some software obtained means other than anonymous ftp you must beg borrow steal the necessary software such binhex stuffit lite from another person realize this may terrify those among you who haven left your parents basement since you got apple but eventually you going need link with some human being other than your mother though suppose you this much nerd you could send your mother out get for you while you gathering your nerves for venture into the strange and terrifying world daylight please don bother the net asking this question again there simply way move executable macintosh programs from other non macintosh computer onto mac without software that not bundled with most macs troubleshooting what before posting when things wrong while the various faq lists cover lot specific problems there are far more problems that aren covered here these are few basic techniques you should follow before asking for help you should probably also perform the ten step preventative maintenance routine described section four especially rebuilding the desktop and resizing the system heap following these steps may may not solve your problem but will least make easier for others recommend solutions you identify the problem microsoft word crashing doesn say much what were you doing when crashed can you repeat the actions that lead the crash the more information you provide about the actions preceding the crash the more likely someone can help you the more precisely you identified the problem and the actions preceding step the easier will tell the following steps fix the problem for example sometimes quarkxpress crashes with coprocessor not installed error not nearly helpful quarkxpress crashes when link two text boxes master page when copies those text boxes already contain text the former will leave you wondering whether the bug remains after given step the latter lets you right the problem and see still there not read the read file many companies include list known incompatibilities and bugs their read files often these aren documented the manual read any read files see any the problems sound familiar check for viruses run disinfectant another anti viral across your disk virus infections are rarer than most people think but they occur and they cause all sorts weird problems when they reinstall the application and all its support files for half dozen reasons external magnetic fields improperly written software the alignment the planets file disk may not contain the data supposed contain this can cause all types unexplained unusual behavior restoring from original masters will normally fix this reinstall the system software bits are even more likely get twiddled the system file than the application and the effects can just disastrous see question for detailed procedure for performing clean reinstall the problem continues occur after you taken these steps chances are you found either conflict between your application and some other software genuine bug the program time isolate the problem you need find the minimal system which the problem will assert itself here are the basic steps isolating the cause system application crash run only one application time occasionally applications conflict with each other the problem does not manifest itself without other applications running simultaneously you can begin launching other applications until you find the one that causes the crash you running system turn off multifinder you running system allot much memory the application you can afford sometimes programs just need more memory especially when performing complicated operations you running system turn off virtual memory and bit addressing there still awful lot system hostile software out there including some from companies that really have excuse can you say microsoft word boys and girls knew you could some this software only expresses its incompatibilities when certain uncommon actions are taken boot from virgin system floppy the problem disappears you likely have init conflict you need progressively remove extensions until the problem vanishes use little common sense when choosing the first extensions remove the problem occurs when you try open file remove any inits that mess with the standard file open procedure such super boomerang first the problem remains after the obvious candidates have been eliminated either remove the remaining extensions one time you have lot them perform binary search removing half the extensions time once the problem disappears add half the most recently removed set back continue until you narrowed the conflict down one extension when you think you found the offending init restart with only that init enabled just make sure that and alone indeed causing the problem contact technical support now you should have very good idea when where and why the conflict occurs tech support number available for the software call you lucky the company will have work around fix available not perhaps they least add the bug their database problems fixed the next release preventive maintenance you wouldn drive your car miles without giving tune computer different regular tune ups avoid lot problems although there are mac mechanics who happy charge you more for the equivalent oil change there reason you can change yourself the following nine step program should performed about every three months trash unneeded files many the operations that follow will run faster and more smoothly the more free disk space there work with spend little time cleaning your hard disk you all like you find several megabytes worth preferences files for applications you longer have archives software you dearchived shareware you tried out and didn like announcements for events that have come and gone and many other files you longer need you running system you may also have several more megabytes your trash can alone throw them away and empty the trash rethink your extensions some macintoshes attract inits like new suit attracts rain seriously consider whether you actually need every extension your collection you don use the functionality extension least every fifth time you boot you probably better off not storing your system folder where only takes memory destabilizes your system and slows down every startup for instance you only read disks once month there need keep accesspc loaded all the time cutting back your extension habit can really help avoid crashes rebuild the desktop the desktop file database holds all the information necessary associate each file with the application that created lets the system know what application should launched when you open given file and what icons should display where depending its size each application has one more representatives the desktop file applications and files move and off your hard disk the desktop file can become bloated and corrupt think congress for your mac every often necessary throw the bums out and start with clean slate fortunately easier rebuild the desktop than defeat incumbent one warning rebuilding the desktop will erase all comments you stored the get info boxes under system maurice volaski freeware init commentkeeper will retain those comments across rebuild commentkeeper also works with system but only apple desktop manager extension also installed rebuild the desktop restart your mac and your extensions finish loading depress the command and option keys you presented with dialog box asking you want rebuild the desktop and warning you that this could take few minutes click will take more than few minutes the more files you have the longer will take you running system you may want turn off multifinder before trying rebuild the desktop you experiencing definite problems and not just doing preventive maintenance you may want use fifth generation freeware init desktop reset desktop reset completely deletes the desktop file before rebuilding thus eliminating possibly corrupt data structures zap the pram and reset the clock all macs from the original thin mac the quadra contain small amount battery powered ram hold certain settings that properly move with the cpu rather than with the disk such which disk boot from unfortunately this parameter ram can become corrupted and cause unexplained crashes reset under system hold down the command option and keys while restarting your mac under system hold down the command option and shift keys while selecting the control panel from the apple menu click yes when asked you want zap the parameter ram since you erased almost all the settings the general control panel you should now reset them whatever you want the one setting that zapping the pram does not erase the date and time but since the internal clock the macintosh notoriously inaccurate you probably want take this opportunity reset anyway resize the system heap even after rethinking their extensions per step two most people still have least half row icons march across the bottom their screen every time they restart all these extensions and most applications too need space section memory called the system heap the system heap isn big enough comfortably accommodate all the programs that want piece they all start playing king the mountain the system heap knocking each other off get bigger pieces for themselves and trying climb back after they get knocked off all this fighting amongst the programs severely degrades system performance and almost inevitably crashes the mac you using system your macintosh will automatically resize the system heap necessary but you running system important set your system heap size large enough manage all your extensions and applications default this size set way too small for most macs with any extensions all the system heap size stored the normally non editable boot blocks every system disk bill steinberg freeware utility bootman not only lets you resize your system heap but even checks how much memory your heap already using can tell how much needs allocated you running system get bootman use and amazed how infrequently your macintosh crashes reinstall the system software system files can become corrupt and fragmented especially you stored lots fonts and desk accessories inside them merely updating the system software will often not fix system file corruption recommend doing clean reinstall here how boot from the installer floppy your system disks copy any non standard fonts and desk accessories out your system file into temporary suitcase trash the system file your hard disk also trash the finder multifinder handler and all other standard apple extensions like control panel and chooser these will all replaced the new installation you running installing system move everything the extensions control panels and preferences folders into the top level the system folder rename the system folder any name other than system folder fine double click the installer script your system disk then choose customize select the appropriate software for your model mac and printer you could easy install instead but that will only add lot extensions and code you don need that waste your memory and disk space once installation finished move everything from the temporary folder you created step into the new system folder you asked you want replace anything you forgot take something out step you need replace things individually until you find the duplicate piece reinstall any fonts you removed step reboot you should now have clean defragmented system file that takes less memory and disk space and much more stable system overall disk utilities much like system files hard disks have data structures that occasionally become corrupted affecting performance and even causing data loss apple includes disk first aid simple utility for detecting and repairing hard disk problems with its system disks also available for anonymous ftp from ftp apple com the directory dts mac sys soft hdsc even you have earlier version you should get the latest version from ftp apple com and run all your hard disks several companies have released payware disk utilities that detect and repair considerably more problems than disk first aid though interestingly none them detect and repair everything that disk first aid does the three most effective for general work are central point mactools deluxe fifth generation public utilites and symantec norton utilities for the macintosh department work group should have all these well disk first aid since none them fix everything the others for individuals mactools street about half the price norton street public utilities street features and ease use being roughly equal recommend mactools all these products occasionally encounter problems they can fix when that happens time backup and reformat backing this one part preventative maintenance that should done lot more often than every three months the simplest back merely copy all the files your hard disk onto floppies other removable media you keep your data files separate from your application and support files then easy only back those folders which change frequently nonetheless every three months you should complete backup your hard disk number programs are available make backing easier apple included very basic full backup application with system with the performas apple ships new apple backup utility that can backup the entire disk just the system folder onto floppies the previously mentioned norton utilities for the mac and mactools deluxe include more powerful floppy backup utilities that incorporate compression and incremental backups finally you lucky enough have tape drive network server removable media device use for backups you should check out the more powerful payware utilities redux street doesn support tape drives and diskfit pro street there are freely available backup utilities other than the old backup from system disk defragmentation disks fill gets harder and harder find enough free space the same place write large files therefore the operating system will often split larger files into pieces stored different places your hard disk files become more and more fragmented performance can degrade there are several ways defragment hard disk the most tedious but cheapest method backup all your files erase the hard disk and you might well reformat while you see question and restore all the files number payware utilities including norton utilities for the mac and mac tools deluxe can defragment disk place without erasing although the ads for all these products brag about their safety once you bought the software and opened the shrink wrap they all warn you back your disk before defragmenting case something does wrong there are freeware shareware disk defragmenters please don annoy the net asking for one reformat your hard disk just floppy disk needs initialized before use hard disk must formatted before can hold data you don need reformat every three months but when your system crashing matter what you try reformatting the ultimate means wiping the slate clean reformatting your hard disk may even gain you few extra megabytes space not all hard disks are created equal some can hold more data than others facilitate mass production and advertising without lot asterisks megabytes the average formatted capacity your mileage may vary apple often formats drives the lowest common denominator drive capacity when you reformat there reason all not reclaim whatever unused space apple left your disk unlike floppies hard disks need special program initialize them most hard disks come with formatting software apple disks and system software ship with setup minimal disk formatter which will format apple brand hard drives only most other manufacturers ship appropriate formatting software with their hard drives normally this will all you need reformat your hard disk number general purpose formatters are also available which beyond the bundled software include features like encryption password protection multiple partitioning faster disk access system compatibility and even compression two the best are the payware drive and hard disk toolkit personal edition street for either while there are one two freeware formatters available none are likely superior the ones bundled with your hard disk powerbook users should sure turn off sleep and processor cycling before reformatting their hard drives matter what software they use otherwise disk corruption crashes and data losses are very good possibility elliotte rusty harold department mathematics elharo shiva njit edu new jersey institute technology erh tesla njit edu newark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	file sharing magneto opticals worker has just attached magneto optical drive his mac works great for him however tried turn file sharing but wouldn work had some message about not all volumes are shareable has anyone had success sharing mos please tell how jann vanover atc boeing com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	apple monitor woes have month old that seems have acquired the jitters late the apple color monitor that using with lciii sort jiggles the left and right all the time now have attempted relocate the monitor make sure the problem isn interference from something else but the problem seems remain matter what has anybody encountered this problem thanks jeff budzinski jeffreyb netcom com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cache card for iisi previous article glalonde watson ibm com says last week mac place had the applied engineering quicksilver card cache one pds slot socket for fpu sale for without fpu regular price idea this still going but can get the phone anyone interested found their macuser can some people with cache cards please post speedometer numbers they get with the cards have only one report which seems indicate that cache card gives you only about speedup access memory takes longer when you have cache card and get miss thus small cache card may worth don know what kind numbers cards get you also found interesting that you can disable the cache cards via software read about the mac iisi tech notes from ftp apple com good deal not still don know would say that not good deal june macworld river formerly maya computer advertised daystar mhz powercache with for can you believe know prices would falling but geeze thought you might interested chuck chuck williams intern pacific northwest laboratories cleveland freenet edu williams ccmail pnl gov
comp.sys.mac.hardware	virus centris wierdness been getting seemingly random disk accesses centris with quantum lps but this not the regular recalibration has been doing since got this sometimes short sometimes long accesses that sound like there some read writing going have sam and disinfectant but neither picks anything any ideas jason titus ecosys drdr virginia edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitor jitter several weeks ago described problem with apple high resolution monitor and promised summarize replies received mail recapitulate occasionally every two three hours monitor momentarily loses sync the entire raster image bounces down about eighth inch then rights itself this usually happens right after close large window highlight large area something that radically alters the image the screen sometimes though happens with provocation whatsoever have received bewildering range replies one extreme was man clearly quite knowledgable about monitors who said that the problem was that the monitor power supply simply couldn always keep with sudden changes the raster image the rapid change from largely light screen largely dark one overtaxed the monitor power supply there was fix available said because nothing was really wrong guess meant that the flaw was fundamental that had endured this seemed quite persuasive and would have been tempted adopt attitude stoicism except for reply from monitor owner who discovered that this very problem documented the apple service technical procedures volume under the heading jitter correction the section describes fix involving the replacement capacitor the adjustment potentiometer failing that the swap circuit board would grateful for discussion among those who have had experience with this sort thing
comp.sys.mac.hardware	new duo dock info article apr pasteur berkeley edu mohr cory berkeley edu gordon mohr writes article baa mizzou missouri edu mizzou missouri edu writes why little known fact that macs have cpu they are all connected via cellular network the cray supercomputer apple garage that right the same one where steve steve built the apple shannon silly you don you know the only division apple allowed use the cray the legal department gordon they sold the cray they realised that spending two years numbercrunching the finite stress analysis figures for the complex injection molded cases was not the way and was holding development work especially when the first fea model for the portable left out the battery cover and had redone that why the portable was about three years late designing metal cases easier they managing with the calculator now can compute correctly any other suggestions
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sony reliability was musings durability article apr waikato ldo waikato lawrence oliveiro waikato university writes article apr csus edu altheimm nextnet csus edu murray altheim writes that was point sony did manufacture the powerbook under license from apple and actually works yup bought the darn thing cause was sturdy carry around unpadded unless you consider all the papers and files and folders bookbag shoulder strap little job from eddie bauer travelled cross country several times with walkman discman and tapes books and computer all piled their works happily and typing right now has global village teleport internal send receive fax modem and just love unfortunately have seen new duo that friend bought primary computer have mac iisi and primary home computers and quadra and iici work the lab and while amazed the lightness was kinda shocked the flimsiness the screen sure break real easy sorry but other than trinitron everything else ever bought from sony has failed why did keep trying because tupid mon got sony vcr sony both must over two years old now sony camcorder five months old and course apple rgb monitor with sony tube that never going part with and the drive month old centris fact sony maybe question personal compatibility maybe your body puts out the wrong polarity static electricity something geez are sony familly our neighbor works for zeinth and hates always asks why didn buy zeinth products nice guy nevertheless still have two working sony color trinitrons from and older one second picture tube but both work now they relegated the old bit atari computer and atari game machinces well our not that old younger sister nintendo game machine sony doesn make like they used though the newer mexican assembly line are not that reliable sharp anymore dad also just got direct view sony god the thing weighs ton still where would without trinitrons players the veritable walkman shishin squish yamada squish endor harvard edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	price cuts heard that the magic date for price drop number apple products will june can anyone second this rumour motion picture major the brooks institute photography santa barbara and foreign student from kuala lumpur malaysia the mind the forerunner all states
comp.sys.mac.hardware	price drops heard that there will apple price drop coming june can anyone second this rumour motion picture major the brooks institute photography santa barbara and foreign student from kuala lumpur malaysia the mind the forerunner all states
comp.sys.mac.hardware	selling powerbook article apr csus edu altheimm nextnet csus edu murray altheim writes article aaainnt senator bedfellow mit edu cam athena mit edu daniel cameron daly writes have that might selling soon upgrade duo before graduation take advantage the educational discount those who have recently bought sold what kind price did you get info any config appreciated thanks cam daly cam several months ago bought with external floppy appletalk remote access kensington case and adapter with complete documentation and almost new condition used for considered very good buy and very cosy with little baby now murray put down for with ext floppy appletalk remote acces adapter and fresh out box was used but buyer switched arrival and sold unopened box purchased last october for later bought used powerport bps internal fax modem for something like using right now works great real complaints love portable system got color home setup also mac reasoning was that matlab programs school and other simulations dynamic control systems sometimes took hours overnight run tying mac got the with fast modem light work and the run stuff figured give little sister next year when she goes college running system now without any problems also sometimes dec terminal emulations with matlab our university vax vms nice thing that benchmarks itself average times faster than mac iifx the just does graphical output and terminal emulation not too hard all for was fabulous setup weeee the way all matlab software was class accounts was also the for class that used simulab simulink had site license and take home then destroy later site release licenses pirating there incase you wondering great program just like add whatever future system you get you can almost never get enuff memory buy while cheap that buy when you get the computer since usually cheaper than upgrading always run out disk space but have syquest the mac iisi never worried about space before got several carts shishin squish yamada squish endor harvard edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	ouadra cache problems mac fans have some problems with new quadra several programs mathematica afterdark mandelbrot module causes systemcrash the cache active anyone have list programs which are compatible and which are not anyone have some hints for the use the quadras perfomence thanks joerg
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how fast apple fpu what the maximum rate the fpu that apple sells directly apple part the apple literature labels the fpu for classics and iii assume will least mhz question can put performa mhz the apple price cheap compared from mail order houses any one know the answer this one
comp.sys.mac.hardware	what needed for rom mac does system support all scsi rom drives are specific drivers needed for each different make model specifically looking getting nec cdr mainly because they are cheap know its slow drive but multimedia isn interest mainly want for extracting software distributed will need get specific driver use this drive mac thanks charles charles carlson umcarls ccu umanitoba warning this article contains flammable material that may ignite without prior notice read only with protective eyeware
comp.sys.mac.hardware	video cards for duodock just got duo and duodock and quite happy with all except need use the dock with two page grey scale monitor apple two page color monitor apple what net wisdom which vendor video card would preferable thanks advance jon jon sticklen tele kbs lab comp sci dept fax wells hall office eng bldg michigan state university east lansing home tele
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how they compare also amiga comparisson david schnider bmug org wrote the real question here opinion what motorola processors running stem mac are comparable what intel processors running windows stuff deleted david even better than that how does based amiga perform daily tasks compared based iici answer except very few cases get butt kicked the amiga sure there are other considerations but goes show you how proper design from the beginning hardware and software can give you great returns well showing you that you don have marketing department speak one will care how good your system had the same experience actually love the mac interface and any number the features but sorely dissapointed with the speed use macs daily and moc consultant for osu statistics department familiar with almost every model out there and experience that both the amiga and the atari simply blow the mac out the water terms performance this time would general say that the other advantages the mac outweigh the advantages the amiga the and falcon but really wish apple would get their heads together speed they could take real lesson muli tasking from the amiga the multitos the atari falcons too still happy with but don understand why the performance bad comparatively they could have done multi tasking properly they could have done everthing else better but apple didn course dos and windows are nothin write home about either just hope that someone comes out with machine that does everything well someday had choice would with mac most aspects but add the speed and superior multi tasking the other platforms for the original topic trying compare just the chip machine seems almost worthless fast with wiz bang graphics accelerator will faster productivity for many applications than even stock quadra add graphics accelerator and you really fly course add one the the quadra and then you blowing the away etc well all got worth for the price think mine was only worth david butler dhbutler magnus acs ohio state edu this not novel tossed away lightly should thrown with great force dorothy parker
comp.sys.mac.hardware	radius pivot card with bit adressing hello out there mac iisi runs radius pivot monitor with the pds card wanted try switch bit adressing couldn startup mac anymore what the trick zap the pram won have take out the battery next time there any trick that could allow switch bit what does bit adressing bring user faster work any chance have more than adressable memory with bit adressing thank you lot for your answers via mail reply ralph schwegler university gallen switzerland
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac does anyone know the macintosh has pin the pin that enables better flow control know the doesn have but what about have had conflicting reports far please help thank you btw you use reznova novalink yes mail via uci net amiga dennis cheung the dtc corporation america america online dtc internet dtc mlinknet hotcity com disclaimer you never read this message this message doesn exist
comp.sys.mac.hardware	accelerator for info needed folks subject line says all which accelerators can you recommend for mac sorry this faq cheers steffo
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac discontinued good buy local dealer offering mac machines equipped with kodak multi session compatible rom drives for what seems like attractive price used many other models but this would the first could have own mac safe buy about discontinued model such this like yank the rom drive out put housing and share with this feasible the only info have the that relatively slow mhz has chip with math coprocessor want add non apple portrait monitor and use this machine for hypercard stack design this good buy would wasting money would appreciate some advice thanks robert matthews grfg twnmoe bitnet edu taiwan
comp.sys.mac.hardware	the mhz iisi methods for attaching heat sink processor radio shack and buy tube heat sink compound comes little blue and white tube with black screw cap radio shack catalog number mix silicone and zinc oxide and conducts heat very well plus tacky usually you would smear bit between the chip and the sink and then bolt clamp the sink down but you don move your mac gravity and the stickiness the goo should more than suffcient hold things place just make sure you remember there case you tilt your mac and jar hard enough shake loose you wouldn want loose piece metal running around inside your mac
comp.sys.mac.hardware	important users only are having problems with bunch one our labs the fault that the machines either bomb freeze when attempting write their internal floppies the internal floppies have been tested their own and are fine which means that main board fault the machines all come from the same batch the date code the back the machines december you own machine from this batch has any user had experience with this fault was warranty repair any feedback would appreciated and will post the results the net bill mail william russell computing science dept tel glasgow univ lilybank gardens glasgow arpa bill dcs glasgow nsfnet relay usenet bill dcs glasgow uucp janet bill glasgow dcs usebangnet mcsun ukc dcs glasgow bill
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cache card for iisi article usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu charles williams writes good deal not still don know would say that not good deal june macworld river formerly maya computer advertised daystar mhz powercache with for can you believe know prices would falling but geeze actually the for the mhz powercard not the universal powercache the mhz universal powercache with fpu and adaptor can had for about still not bad deal believe the powercard one generation older than the universal powercache and the one primary difference that the powercard machine specific while the powercache can fit into many macs with the proper adaptor both cards are based not sure the hardware software with the powercard otherwise different from the powercache perhaps someone could enlighten would also add that called river computer the other night and these powercards were going very fast rich spiegel mission analysis group johns hopkins road laurel
comp.sys.mac.hardware	stereo sound problem mac games article ingemar isy ingemar ragnemalm ingemar isy liu writes enter game developers the sound driver and current sound manager are inconveniently lame for making games the sound driver pretty since fast sound manager used the book useless disposing sound channels soon sound has completed out the question for games with smooth animation too slow why would you dispose channel you are going play more sounds soon you are trying write game you shouldn using sndplay instead make channel and use buffercmds play sounds works great you can add callbacks the channel also let you know when the channel getting empty before gets empty the sound driver much snappier than sound manager unfortunately system supports poorly making programs crash occasionally the moral the story developers don cheat well want code work old systems too don know about sys but least there are bugs the sound manager that causes channels hang with error message this happends when keep channel open for long periods necessary for performance and play many sounds stopping sounds halfway callbacks seems not reliable then only way can safely tell sound has stopped playing inspect private variables the channel qhead think was and the only way have found tell channel hung inspect undocumented flag and modify callbacks are very reliable found them reliable even under system was doing continuous background sound with interrupting sound effects system with the documentation you probably were cancelling your callback commands out your channels course you didn get called general you have problems with sounds working when you play one per channel and then close the channel with the related slowdown but then when you play more than one you don work then you are adding more than one synthesizer channel possibly the same one multiple times this might because you are calling sndplay preexisting channel with sound resource which adds the sampled sound synthesizer the channel first thing before plays most sampled sounds have this command the start them you need resedit the sound and remove that command then when you create your channel specify the sampled sound synthesizer the channel synth then you can use asynch sndplay all you want you probably want switch buffercmd since you are going have use snddocommand anyway add callbacks now before you ahead and tell full and the sound manager doesn work for games remember spectre uses and works great spectre can spare the cpu time you can too one little disclaimer there are some out there who say the sound manager the iisi can made work right not sure either way but know for sure that you can make your sounds work correctly every other machine using the sound manager steve
comp.sys.mac.hardware	running mathematica here another question hesitant powerbook purchaser want able run mathematica and would like hear some comments from the gallery about this how much slower does the program run machine without fpu namely versus machine with fpu namely what types calculations get bogged down the most primarily due moderately simple algebra integrals which can dealt with analytically and plotting including plots don lot numerical work would with lot memory and the very nice video port sufficient should really try get fpu for this type work with faster than with all comments appreciated please respond email ross sbphy physics ucsb edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris mhz mhz just put mhz cpu into centris now have math coprocessor but possible speed the centris run either mhz mhz didn see any oscillators the motherboard like the ones the iisi motherboard where the oscillator for the centris any ideas thanks saiid paryavi paryavi matt ksu ksu edu saiid cis ksu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	ehman monitor service recall that ehman died can anyone suggest what the problem when the picture jumps about inch any direction two page monchrome monitor connected newlife accelerator and video board the end the work day several hours with power the picture will occasionally jitter couple times and then remain calm for few minutes then does more shaking the environment around the computer appears stable nothing newly introduced near the computer any ideas please mail carsona sfu reply here also has anyone used ehman two page with powerbook video what was required just cable adapter thanks for any help dale carsona sfu think the monitor zenith mechanism
comp.sys.mac.hardware	phonenet questions school settin new network with bothe macs and apple used ethernet and don know about localtalk two things first macwherehouse bthe have poweruser network connectors and the caption leads you bel ieve that you can plug them into the phone lines the building and have them work this true seen done running sep erate phone cords but never with real lines second that does work could you use modem hooked that same line while the network was active help would greatly appriciated btw running seperate phone line out the question the network wil verry spread ericronin bringing kind word and helpful spirit wherever can are the association multi line macintosh bbs grand blanc michigan echoes from fido internet familynet icdmnet plus files hst bis testify eric cronin internet eric cronin fidonet org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they kept hours day yes know computers and harddisk drives should always but what about monitors they generate lots heat should shouldn keep them hours day any advice thanks take care paul paul nevai nevai mps ohio state edu dept math ohio state university office columbus ohio math dept fax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	carrying case for centris does anyone know there carrying case for the centris thanks for any info saiid paryavi paryavi matt ksu ksu edu saiid cis ksu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they kept hours day article igh function mps ohio state edu pali osu edu writes yes know computers and harddisk drives should always but what about monitors they generate lots heat should shouldn keep them hours day any advice thanks take care paul paul nevai nevai mps ohio state edu dept math ohio state university office columbus ohio math dept fax keep apple trinitron and iisi for months time doesn seem cause any problems tttttt eeeee eeeee eeee eeee steve liu vvv drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu eeeee eeeee drlovemd jhuvms hcf jhu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	datadesk keyboard centris fix posted here about problem with datadesk keyboard that failed rebuild the desktop with the command option keys pressed shut off inits when pressing the shift key after absolutely help from datadesk called macconnection tech support they tried out their centris and had the same problem they immediately offered get new keyboard try their centris and ship overnight worked could send them keyboard back after got the one that worked this from guy tech support named dave turns out that the keyboard will wrok you wait for the smiley face before pressing the shift key disable inits and wait for the inits start appearing rebuild the desktop pressing command option really like this keyboard was glad able keep the other hand datadesks tech support sucks while macconnection great terry
comp.sys.mac.hardware	duo price reduction cam athena mit edu daniel cameron daly writes someone mentioned while ago that the duos were scheduled for price reduction according newsbytes this definite does anyone know when will take effect and what newsbytes thanks posted that article unfortunately haven seen any further notice they advertize cheaper duo the here for next wek according the articel though the price cut had effective the same day newsbyte group news like clarinet peter
comp.sys.mac.hardware	tempest and cyclone info needed anyone has any information about the upcoming new computers cyclone and tempest need some info anything would greatly appreciated shawn breedsa wkuvx bitnet according macweek the cyclone will come the same metal minitower case the quadra while the tempest will share the low slung case the centris apple will offer miniature video camera that can mounted above the user monitor moved about the end its cable take pictures objects documents taking advantage the bit digital signal processor dsp built into the systems logic boards the camera will able put image measuring pixels with gray levels the screen users will able install supplementary lenses that can record detail fine the wire bonds integrated circuit the camera expected cost between and the systems will ship with all the software needed put apple casper voice recognition technology work users apparently will have purchase operational high fidelity microphone the two models will talk well listen new system facility called the speech manager will convert text strings sent applications phonemes and then pass them speech synthesizer the cyclone will include mhz three nubus slots and support for ram the tempest will use mhz lacking fpu and hold ram will have single slot that will require nubus adapter and have room for only inch nubus cards users will able update the tempest process but not the cyclone for more get the issue macweek
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help fdhd failure iicx repost due net problems have problems with the fdhd iicx that ekg reports rom revision had reports that this mac was having trouble formatting disks and the time got the fdhd just would not respond although all other functions were fine checked the voltages the external drive connector and pin showed volts with and giving volts unloaded the power supply astec and sent away for repair with the power supply reinstalled now get the following error with the internal fdhd connected the mac boots fine but completion boot cycle alert displays the disk unreadable you want eject for every combination response the alert reappears within approx seconds and this error continuous the fdhd does spin but there head seeking and the fdhd incapable ejecting the disk this error sequence occurs regardless whether there floppy the drive not pin the external connector shows pins and show with the internal fdhd disconnected the mac boots fine and works great macekg reports errors the external connector now shows voltage pin but pins and show now the internal fdhd may fubar but have apple external drive that gives exactly the same symptoms the internal drive when connected either the external the internal connector after suitable surgery the external drive the voltages with the internal fdhd disconnected are follows pin volts pin volts this machine has swim which don think ekg tests have tested all diodes and pica fuses and can find problems does anybody have any ideas best wishes woody paul woodman praxis plc the software engineering company touche ross manvers street bath tel fax woody praxis
comp.sys.mac.hardware	number for applied engineering anyone have phone number for applied engineering can give them call steven langlois slang bnr
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how change default paper cassette pro want change the default paper cassette our laserwriter pro from the sheet cassette the sheet cassette right now all have change manually the print dialog each time print forget the document printed the letterhead paper have the sheet cassette any ideas michael michael hecht internet michael hecht mac sas com sas institute inc cary usa applelink sas hecht
comp.sys.mac.hardware	the mhz iisi article ufzp btp willamette edu thomas herzog therzog willamette edu writes finally decided risk this upgrade faq hand gathered the pieces together the only problem that haven been able find anyone who even heard thermal tape glue which what the faq recommends for attaching the heat sink just tempted use duct tape here anyone hae any ideas for for attaching the heat sink the processor much thanks just use thin film epoxy that what did epoxy conducts heat fairly well and heat sink gets warm prove looked for the stuff myself local jocks said use epoxy have fun ken
comp.sys.mac.hardware	fast modems slow macs 
comp.sys.mac.hardware	wanted audiomedia card wanted digidesgn audiomedia card for the mac email you have one for sale thanks fcs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they kept hours day article uhhi hdg austin ibm com kelleyb austin ibm com kelley boylan wrote yes know computers and harddisk drives should always but what about monitors they generate lots heat should shouldn keep them hours day any advice thanks take care paul there has been empirical evidence support the first statement true there power surge startup that has the potential damage but the internal power supply well protected turned mac and off six seven times day for three years without problem the monitor the same leave waste lot electricity twice much television possibly more turn off when you not using save you money and the world few more resources the problem with turing your computer and off constantly not due the power surge start due thermal fatigue you turn your computer heats and everything expands you turn off cools off and everything contracts there limited number cycles this that any component can take before fails modern electronics are much more robust this respect than their predeccesors fact portable computers are designed with this mind since the sleep function that extends battery life also greatly increaces the number thermal cycles that occur rule thumb not going use computer and this includes the monitor the next hours turn off always dim the monitor when not use prolong the life the phosphor tend think that with the pace technical innovation the computer industry you should much less concerned with the fatigue life your equipment and more concerned with how long your particular architecture will supported hardware and software vendors charles kuehmann northwestern university steel research group
comp.sys.mac.hardware	extra monitors netters for home computer have humble maclc with color monitor the majority work writing therefore would love have portrait monotor conected the however sometimes need the color monitor question this there good cheap way hook two monitors and there anyone out there that has done this how you like please respond here directly thanks for your time hope talk anyone soon jerry salem jerry slack med upenn edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	thanks for unlockfolder sorry all the personal replies sent about help with unlockfolder got eaten mail program fault like thank everyone who sent info kristen lepa origin leo technology hst
comp.sys.mac.hardware	price drop within article uupcb hal ann arbor barry davis hal ann arbor barry davis writes have negotiated good deal with supplier for and would like jump but again don want the price drop smuther btw the deal have with mouse for does anyone know better deal don know better deal but would you willing share your deal with the rest that certainly sounds like you getting great deal interested that deal too deluxe microframe the best price and performance qnet the pipeline atlanta echo mail from around the world post where this comes from will people stop sending email asking where negotiated the deal the deal from international computer and networking saw the int back macworld and macuser phone number and the deal may have changed since few weeks ago since they change prices about every ten minutes alas this funny system sounds like good deal but this centris the motherboard simm ethernet and coprocessor well actually instead just had say that keep people from saying there such thing without coprocessor since the fpu built into the chip there have but were you would wait untill the cyclones come out and buy quadra nate hate quotations this message brought you tell what you know nate sammons and the number ralph waldo emerson longs lance colostate edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quicktime resolution anyone happen know what the max resolution for quicktime trying determine maxed out system using quicktime could produce and edit broadcast quality video including bringing the video via video spigot etc far have yet see anything that even close vhs quicktime but great hear that possible thanks for the help alex bratton
comp.sys.mac.hardware	want macweek how get subscription macweek want one but don seem able find subscription card anywhere email smashman leland stanford edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	ugradable tempest going possible upgrade tempest how motherboard switch probably gonna expensive right
comp.sys.mac.hardware	appleone scanner and printing quality just received appleone color scanner for our lab however having trouble getting reasonable scanned output when printing scanned photo laserwriter iig have tried scanning higher resolution and the display the screen appears very nice however the printed version coming out ugly this due the resolution capabilities the printer are there tricks involved get better quality should getting something like photoshop pretty the image will appreciate any suggestions thanks advance kris kris schroeder schroede cps msu edu kbs lab michigan state university
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cache card for iisi article netnews jhuapl edu richs aplcomm jhuapl edu rich spiegel writes article usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu charles williams writes good deal not still don know would say that not good deal june macworld river formerly maya computer advertised daystar mhz powercache with for can you believe know prices would falling but geeze actually the for the mhz powercard not the universal powercache the mhz universal powercache with fpu and adaptor can had for about still not bad deal believe the powercard one generation older than the universal powercache and the one primary difference that the powercard machine specific while the powercache can fit into many macs with the proper adaptor both cards are based not sure the hardware software with the powercard otherwise different from the powercache perhaps someone could enlighten would also add that called river computer the other night and these powercards were going very fast rich spiegel mission analysis group johns hopkins road laurel side note that same macworld they are selling the mhz powercache for the iisi with fpu for for those thinking upgrading the mhz turbo upgrade costs direct from daystar this comes out about cheaper than what most mail order companies charge jon
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they kept hours day article igh function mps ohio state edu nevai mps ohio state edu paul nevai writes yes know computers and harddisk drives should always but what about monitors they generate lots heat should shouldn keep them hours day any advice thanks take care paul paul nevai nevai mps ohio state edu dept math ohio state university office columbus ohio math dept fax actually thought macs were suppoused restarted once day jim smyton smytonj alleg edu sometimes just gotta grab not hitchhiking life the teeth and yank anymore riding hard you can ren weird
comp.sys.mac.hardware	using setwutime with article world std com andrew page aep world std com writes one way tell and open the powerbook control panel there setting there that allows you set the time wake the mac present when you open the control panel then you can assume that setwutime will work gee nice them tell like how about gestalt response bit for the gestaltpowermanagerattributesfoodspreadproduct selector well least now know why doesn work assume using kevin boyce lheavx gsfc nasa gov argle bargle morble whoosh moxie was pepsi
comp.sys.mac.hardware	desi upgrade david schnider bmug org writes does anyone know exactly how digital eclipse does their upgrades someone was suggesting that some chips may not able perform mhz this true and how does desi deal with that would you believe that there letter macweek this week from one the hardware types digital eclipse says that they run tests all the components see they will perform the upgraded speed they not then desi replaces them with ones that hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	rumours about new duos bredell tdb mats bredell writes the official paper got from apple about the new docking station apple themselves called the duodock plus what paper that been the price list here dartmouth since they released and has never been called the duodock plus hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	what was the light the letter over what was the lisa thought start new one what was the iivx hear was some machine that predated the main line about mos but used obsolete tech rumor has that several were sold for those iivx owners whose panties are bunch now this just joke really just tired the repetitive nature this type dialog plus flaming stress relief
comp.sys.mac.hardware	slowdowns article tfsquad org douce tfsquad org andrew geweke writes currently managing among many other labs lab with three iis mac plus with external and laserwriter ntx problem the iis seem intermittently slow snail pace this happens intermittently macs our department ranging from iisi quadra can end the slowdown immediately unplugging the ethernet cable from the mac seems that something the network puts out these packet storms every few days these storms have the effect making our macs slow down crawl david gutierrez drg biomath mda uth tmc edu only fools are positive moe howard
comp.sys.mac.hardware	stylewriter does anyone know what the differences are between the stylewriter and the stylewriter please respond via mail sanders larc nasa gov thanks lyle sanders sanders larc nasa gov unisys government systems inc mail stop voice nasa langley research center fax hampton not feel obliged believe that the same god who endowed with sense reason and intellect has intended forgo their use galileo galilei
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they kept hours day smytonj murr alleg edu jim smyton writes nevai mps ohio state edu paul nevai writes yes know computers and harddisk drives should always but what about monitors they generate lots heat should shouldn keep them hours day any advice well the monitor consistently the largest power drain your electric bill when you are looking your computer set especially you have large greater color monitor generally what leave mac all the time except for the occasional resart syetem crash but turn monitor off each night before leave office also turn off after dark when this since there reason have the screen saver running when there picture being displyed the monitor tube actually thought macs were suppoused restarted once day really what makes you think this the file server office has been for the last months straight and hasn had any problems note also keep the monitor for the file server turned off when not actually working the server itself hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	what was the apple article uupcb hal ann arbor barry davis hal ann arbor barry davis writes the lisa was originally introduced forget now and sold for with floppy drives and memory didn too well grin close but cigar the lisa was introduced january the same time the apple have check see the hard drive came bundled for the the floppy drives were initially the infamous twiggy drives chris wood bellcore ccw ctt bellcore com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	bit card does not work with hello have and generation systems bit pds card for screen worked great until upgraded from ram now with sys and mode enabler does not boot tech support person said the card does not support these bit fixes but when pressing the shift key while booting when the ext monitor goes black after having been grey the system sometimes boots properly and then works with the and full graphics what happening thanks lot for any advice please answer mail ossip kaehr ossip berlin voice ossip kaehr hermannstrasse berlin germany tel email ossip berlin
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they kept hours day article igh function mps ohio state edu pali osu edu writes yes know computers and harddisk drives should always this true thought that this was disputed peter peter white internet uacsc albany edu state univ new york albany bitnet albnyvms
comp.sys.mac.hardware	the mhz iisi finally decided risk this upgrade faq hand gathered the pieces together the only problem that haven been able find anyone who even heard thermal tape glue which what the faq recommends for attaching the heat sink just tempted use duct tape here anyone hae any ideas for for attaching the heat sink the processor much thanks tom therzog willamette edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	inexpensive frame grabbers for macs are all the there news any mac that fit classic frame video grabber mac llllll board vision know several nubus frame grabber boards but wonder there might similar ones for the lesser macs those without slots something permitting instant freezing video picture pal and feeding without jaggies simple digitizer like macvision which takes secs scan picture frame grabber necessity the objective bit pixel pictures stored hypercard have tried using top quality vcr with freeze frame function but the screens come out full streaks and garbage please reply only ianf random and summarize the net cannot read such high volume group thanks ian hit now feldman ianf random
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sad mac code hello the proud new owner mac upon power and insertion the sytem disk get sad mac code can anyone give clue what this means thanks steve
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they kept hours day yes know computers and harddisk drives should always but what about monitors they generate lots heat should shouldn keep them hours day any advice thanks take care paul there has been empirical evidence support the first statement true there power surge startup that has the potential damage but the internal power supply well protected turned mac and off six seven times day for three years without problem the monitor the same leave waste lot electricity twice much television possibly more turn off when you not using save you money and the world few more resources kelley thomas kelley boylan powerpc ibm austin kelleyb austin ibm com buy and pay for own opinions
comp.sys.mac.hardware	and extended keyboard hello saw this question posted week ago but far could tell answer appeared the net what the good oil connecting the apple extended keyboard powerbook the earlier questioner wonderd this would too much load for the and want connect just such beast curious haven got yet can rtfm but assume that standard keyboard with mouse would the spec sheet read mentioned connecting external keyboard but the extended plus mouse pushing any help gratefully recieved will summarise the net necessary thanks john collins thinking but assume that this would apply all
comp.sys.mac.hardware	tempest and cyclone info needed article news duke edu connie acpub duke edu connie writes the two models will talk well listen new system facility called the speech manager will convert text strings sent applications phonemes and then pass them speech synthesizer now make perfect apple ought run right out and license the voice certain mrs roddenberry for the speech synthesizer scott
comp.sys.mac.hardware	accelerator trying find some information accelerator boards for the has anyone used any the past especially those from extreme systems novy macproducts looking for board that will support extended video especially radius two page monitor has anyone used connectix virtual conjunction with their board any software snafus are there any stats anywhere the speed difference between board with fpu and one without please send mail directly thanks bob brown
comp.sys.mac.hardware	extra monitors jerry salem writes there good cheap way hook two monitors and there anyone out there that has done this how you like jerry slack med upenn edu the only way that would add video card the expansion port this doesn have that expensive several companies have portrait monitor video card bundles available check current macworld macuser nizam nizam arain what makes the universe hard comprehend internet narain uiuc edu that there nothing nextmail narain sumter cso uiuc edu compare with
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help with duo does anyone know how zap the pram the duo inaddition have recently noticed that checking the ram left the finder the duo reveals the normal for the system file but only about the bar actually highlighted implying that only being used for the system what gives have had crashes yet other software problem thanks arun mathur
comp.sys.mac.hardware	apple video card friend mine recently acquired card for his iisi and was wondering why always starts black and white know there have been numerous reports about the worth the but was wondering anyone could elaborate little more the subject any replies encouraged thanks vance joe kasanic
comp.sys.mac.hardware	info request deskwriter mathematica has anyone else gotten system error when trying print from mathematica the deskwriter using with megs ram sys tuneup print drivers etc works find imagewriter like get much information possible before send bug report wolfram thanks kurt whitmore iastate edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris upgrade price anyone have price quote vendor for the centris upgrade been quoted price till august after which will cost this course doesn include the trade rebate for the board thus for one gets centris meg onboard with both the fpu and ethernet anyone else have any info this price from the university illinois micro order center are there any other vendors who offer similar prices johann beda uiuc edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sad mac code article apr desire wright edu cse desire wright edu writes hello the proud new owner mac upon power and insertion the sytem disk get sad mac code can anyone give clue what this means bad system disk possibly too new version for your historical curiosity hfat mac matthew russotto russotto eng umd edu russotto wam umd edu some news readers expect disclaimer here just say police searches and seizures make them use force not responsible for bodily harm resulting from following above advice
comp.sys.mac.hardware	want macweek you can call macuser magazine number guess they will give you the info
comp.sys.mac.hardware	phonenet anyone have any experiences report using phonenet thinking about investing one these cards for our lone work ken gantz kgantz cup portal com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	scsi info needed everyone just had quick question does anyone know whether not the maciivx supports the new scsi form any macs support thanks for reading wes wes houghton internet whoughto diana cair edu denver
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac does anybody know where can get copy system modified version system that will work the newer mac models ernest stalnaker jcs sage purdue edu pur sage jcs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	tempest and cyclone info needed article news duke edu connie acpub duke edu connie writes anyone has any information about the upcoming new computers cyclone and tempest need some info anything would greatly appreciated shawn breedsa wkuvx bitnet according macweek description deleted any idea prices thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	non apple mon for duo the duo can drive apple monitor resolution and colors think what non apple monitors can also used would multisync nec work well the same resolution what are the outstanding points the apple monitor when compared with these other monitors denis
comp.sys.mac.hardware	select doesn work out box hello net people have laserwriter select standard ram connected iii the print driver cannot find any adobe type fonts any truetype fonts the system the connections the printer and the driver installation are correct but this printer still refuses find fonts and work correctly out the box imho apple product not working out the box shameful event the installer disks for the printer install select driver printmonitor and backgrounder system iii has anyone else had similar experiences with this printer configuration because really need some help this one thanks anthony anthony medicine adelaide edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra clock modification long here how modified quadra for higher speed previously had been using variable speed overdrive for accelerating cpu but this modification testing out more stable higher speeds your mileage may vary the top speed you achieve cannot predicted before hand personal has tested fine mhz thus far didn have higher speed clock oscillators hand test higher speeds parts clock oscillators pin ttl variety you will need selection speeds beginning mhz the cpu will run the oscillator speed the original one mhz unit recommend getting mhz clock case you damage the existing one obtained clock oscillators from digikey for less than each some their part numbers are mhz ttl clock oscillator part mhz ttl clock oscillator part mhz ttl clock oscillator part ctx don get the half size clock oscillators they won fit there are also cmos clock oscillators haven tried one quadra they work fine iisi socket obtain pin socket which the same form factor pin dip package alternatively use machined socket pins from augat style socket just cut them out the socket cooling fan very small volt fan keep the cpu cool must vso came with specially modified heatsink which had fan built onto had pass through connector which tapped into the hard drive power cable you should rig something similar risk frying your cpu procedure insert usual disclaimer and antistatic warnings here remove the top lid the machine you will see the floppy disk and hard drive mounted plastic tower follow the usual anti static precautions and course make sure the machine off when you this unplug all cables wall and monitor power supply cords from the back the mac remove the power supply pulling the plastic interlocking tab the tower forward and simultaneously pulling the power supply straight the tab piece plastic from the left posterior aspect the tower which extends downward hook the power supply you may also feel horseshoe shaped piece the right portion the power supply leave that alone the plastic tab from the tower all you need release look the rear the tower assembly you will see the flat ribbon scsi connector the hard drive power cable and flat ribbon cable leading the floppy drive disconnect all these from the motherboard the hard drive power cable connector has tab which must squeezed release unplug the drive activity led from its clear plastic mount look down the posterior cylindrical section the plastic tower phillips head screw the base remove taking care not drop into the case bit gummy glue your screwdriver helpful here remove the tower assembly pulling medially the plastic tab the right side the tower this tab prevents the tower from sliding posteriorly slide the entire tower assembly posteriorly then lift the tower assembly straight and out the case remove the interrupt switch assembly strangely shaped plastic device the left front edge the motherboard pull the middle rear plastic prong and forward the entire device will release unplug the speaker cable squeeze the plastic tab the speaker free then swing backwards free from the case remove the motherboard form the case lift the front right corner the motherboard about this allows clear the clear plastic power light guide slide the motherboard forward about the motherboard then comes directly out locate the mhz clock crystal small metal box near the cpu chip note and remember its orientation the new clock oscillators must aligned with pin the same orientation very carefully desolder and remove the old clock oscillator some the pins may bent over simply desolder then unbend them sure your desoldering iron hot enough before heating the board used suction desoldering iron accomplish this task this not appropriate for first soldering experience the motherboard multi layer design with very fine traces easily damaged without proper care install your socket socket pins where the old oscillator once was put mhz clock oscillator into the new socket you could use the old clock but has solder its pins this may come inside the socket and cause corrosion problems later suggest using new mhz clock install your cooling fan system complete the modification reinsert the motherboard and slide into place snap the interrupt switch assembly and speaker lock the mother board firmly plug the speaker wire back into the motherboard reinstall the tower assembly first placing the right wall the tower against the right wall the case with the tower assembly about posterior its intended position lower the tower assembly into place while maintaining contact with the right wall the case once fully down slide the tower assembly anteriorly until clicks into place reconnect the motherboard ends the cables dont forget the floppy drive cable replace the phillips head screw drop the power supply straight down into place until clicks plug the hard drive activity light back into its clear plastic mount reattach your cables and power cords cross your fingers and turn the mac should make the usual power chord doesn something amiss immediately turn the power and recheck your handiwork all not well you have sincere condolences hopefully all will work normally turn the machine back off and replace the mhz clock oscillator with faster one reboot and astounded you will need fully test the machine for many hours before deciding particular speed truly usable with vso machine lock might take hours operation occur the brief time since modifying clock oscillator hours have not had single problem good luck all who attempt this modification there small but real risk but you could well reach quadra speeds higher with less than parts guy kuo guykuo washington edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cyclone tempest price any idea the price range the cyclone the tempest compared current line computers where will the new ones fall price keeper heh heh stop what your name arthur arthur king the britons keeper what your quest arthur seek the holy grail keeper what the air speed velocity unladen swallow arthur what you mean african european swallow keeper what don know that auuuuuuuugh bedemir how know much about swallows arthur well you have know these things when you king you know brian lee smith blsmith eos ncsu edu north carolina state university
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help gcc plp laser printer have plp laser printer make gcc technologies have problem with dirty first page the top portion the first always smeared with black toner across the page print more than one page the same time the problem does not occur other pages cleaned the printer but still does not help can anyone offer any solutions know the phone gcc technologies thanks advance charles cng utoronto
comp.sys.mac.hardware	looking for mac batteries looking for source lithium batteries for original mac the number the battery local electronic shops computer stores freak when inquire the fastest any them can get battery weeks for about anything faster and cheaper welcome please respond via mail and will summarize the net note mail address differs from the return address this posting thanks advance for your help michael stovsky mps cbvox att com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	trade for color mac want get color mac don care mac what but want color machine prefer trade present mac system plus some cash other equipment for the color system right now not full the buy color system outright here what mac system has mac with internal drive meg external external drive imagewriter with color ribbon stuff that can with willing include both the modems and the baud modem the deal right keep mind that both the modems are less than month old and the multitech modem sells for about multitech multimodem data fax robotics sportster data microcom normally will connect only highest but will faster connected another microcom the usr and the multitech are both brand new interested send mail dleonard wixer bga com primary judy stamps misc topical stamps from dogs dleonard wixer bga com cats baseball and many many other subjects secondary for stamp information call tony leonard dleonard wixer cactus org this business only number
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iisi clock poll results long this poll was conducted help users decide whether not alter their iisi clock oscillator have attempted gather many case histories possible find some estimate success and risk the number replies probably shows how rare this modification but give the impression that success rates may higher than the previous estimate machines were able run mhz when add boards were present this not scientific survey but the best have work with thanks all who contributed this poll issues speed mhz mhz appears the norm for machines without add cards all reported machines were able use mhz long add cards were present several apple nubus cards were use machine with the nubus adapter was able faster than mhz one wasn even able achieve mhz with the nubus adapter place speeds and mhz the startup sound distorted and density floppy disk problems have been reported note unless specifically listed below machines were not tested with higher speed clock failure hence the mhz operational machines may well work higher speeds damage one user reported pulling out the plating one pad this was repaired and the machine operational one other reported pulling the pin out the original clock oscillator during desoldering there one second hand report user putting gash the motherboard with slipped soldering iron reports static discharge damage reports high speed operation causing damage then again also don have any reports from users defective parachutes add boards compatibility appears problem with apple nubus adapters several other add boards have been used with success see case histories heat sinks virtually all modified machines had heat sink installed these were often the style power transistor type some used epoxy some used dab heat sink compound with dab cyanoacrylate glue there was also use clamp with bolt through the hole the motherboard case histories all speeds are the effective cpu speed clock oscillator all reported cpu versions were mhz mhz operational ran for minutes mhz before crashing fpu other add card heatsinked cpu only hours day damage during installation mhz operational without apple nubus adapter mhz top speed with apple nubus card installed heatsinked cpu only hours day floppy problems damage during installation mhz operational unable boot mhz heatsinked cpu only floppy problems damage during installation mhz operational works with the following two configurations realtech fpu adaptor card realtech cache card supermac pdqsi supermac fpu adaptor card supermac video spigot supermac pdqsi mhz operational fuzzy startup sound problems with density disks mhz operational fuzzy startup sound heat sink cpu and chip right cpu mhz operational occasional crash mhz mhz operational using fpu rated mhz without difficulty mhz operational pds adapter with spectrum pdqsi graphics card and videospigot mhz fpu heat sink cpu mhz operational mhz failed after several hours mhz operational quicksilver fpu only upgrade mhz operational tried mhz system won start heat sink cpu configured with realtech fpu adapter card supermac pdqsi realtech cache cpu continuously problems floppy works fine mhz mhz operational heat sink cpu mhz operational heat sink cpu mhz operational heat sink cpu mhz operational heat sink cpu mhz operational heat sink cpu hours per day mhz operational heat sink cpu cooling fan floppy problems mhz mhz operational bombed soon after startup mhz with nubus adapter mhz rated cpu ram slots motherboard mhz operational heat sink added cpu later damage while unheatsinked apple nubus adapter with fpu installed mhz operational heat sink cpu mhz operational heat sink cpu mhz operational heat sink cpu mhz operational heat sink cpu guy kuo guykuo washington edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	number for applied engineering anyone have phone number for applied engineering can give them call dallas try tech support may their own line but one these should get you started good luck
comp.sys.mac.hardware	when apple going ship article quod menudo edu sdm sdcc ucsd edu writes the external already shipping and has been shipping for quite awhile now demand for the units are high they are pretty rare seen them listed for around local computer stores and the campus mac reseller also heard rumors that they are bundled with couple had mention previous article that was searching for the external drive did call apple catalog recommended and they told the drives were back ordered until may placed order anyways and two days later had visit from federal express well you can guess how spent weekend course ended paying list price but you get free copy exchange when you order from the apple catalog you may want check they have any internal drives btw older version gatekeeper don recall which version hung mac when trying access photocd audio disk got the newer version which did mention conflict with the apple driver
comp.sys.mac.hardware	wanted macintosh powerbook looking for mac that good condition brand new warranty would ideal should also include the external floppy drive and have least meg internal hard drive with meg ram you have that you like turn into cash please write thanks very much billy irvine com billyb bouncer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac scsi spec tim keanini was heard say regarding mac scsi spec from blast nntp crl com tim keanini have maciifx and know that wired about its scsi chain just bought drive and need find out few hardcore scsi question does the iifx scsi chain want see active passive termination does the iifx scsi spec want enable the initiation the sdtr message what does the iifx scsi spec want far parity checking these are some very good questions for the faq someone does not have time answer these questions but does know where can look them please let know and will repost the answers for everyone see read technote deals with more than any sane person wants know about the iifx scsi thanks tim keanini timk broder com blast crl com sound engineer broderbund software
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra clock chip followup recently modified quadra with socket for clock oscillators has now completed nearly hours error free operation mhz with mhz clock oscillator have also tried mhz cmos clock and that works well the more stupid side discovered you can use mhz clock and make your slow centris however mhz clock which would have yielded mhz quadra who want one didn work all impatiently awaiting mhz clock guy kuo guykuo washington edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	supercard cdrom need help finding xcmds control rom drive from aldus supercard the apple hypercard rom toolkit does not work aldus has clue apple has clue berkeley mug and boston mug won return any phone calls local user group has idea help commercial shareware fine please reply email clee theporch raider net thanks chris lee macintosh consulting america online chris box graphics interface design compu erve nashville digital audio clee theporch raider net
comp.sys.mac.hardware	duo price reduction yes duo prices have dropped don have the msrp reductions though you can find recent tidbits archived sumex but here the berkeley educational price list old new duo duo duo duo modem there joel joel siegel jdsiegel garnet berkeley edu jdsiegel ocf berkeley edu myself have never been able find out what feminism only know that called feminist whenever express sentiments that differentiate from doormat rebecca west
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quicktime jpeg expansion source needed hello need the code for decompression quicktime jpeg pict files they don conform usual jpeg compressors which are available source the code should pascal modula the code will used several platforms view pictures over isdn perhaps special hardware will put around much less then mac perhaps only dsp with some support chips the code not available perhaps the algorithm available decompress them christian bauer bauer informatik uni ulm
comp.sys.mac.hardware	want macweek article apr leland stanford edu smashman leland stanford edu adam samuel nash writes how get subscription macweek want one but don seem able find subscription card anywhere email smashman leland stanford edu just ordered subscription today call macweek customer service dept and quote some plastic you forget the number included the statement ownership which the contents page the copy have one year subscription costs the canada mexico was told first issue would arrive weeks leslie jones ljones utkvx utk edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they kept hours day cnn factiod the last few months stated that all the computers the are left hours day days week don recall cnn source leslie jones ljones utkvx utk edu who turns off his monitor when not using
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sony dat retrospect problems having problems tying get sony dat drive work using retrospect and only luck with getting the drive work has been with mac iici which has now unfortunately gone another department ideally want attach our quadra setup can seem get the retrospect software recognize the media all when the devices dialog can see the dat device but comes with firstly running secondly media failure and then immediately contents unknown this does not happen with the mac iici setup which simply says ready hoping someone else will have had similar problems but found some solution know some others who have had problems with dat devices and their quadra but they have mac iici which they can use the symptoms system software also didn work with have tried the following turn off all extensions except retrospect scsi required tested variety machines quadra iisi and least connected other scsi devices tested all varieties scsi termination etc replaced the dat unit with new one yes got that desperate read the retrospect manual even more desperate replies via email would greatly appreciated thanks advance post any solutions this group cheers matt matthew riddle matthew ariel unimelb edu science multimedia teaching unit tel faculty science fax university melbourne australia opinions are own
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra scsi problems article kluskens istari nrl navy mil michael kluskens kluskens radar nrl navy mil writes the problem mentioned last known quadra scsi problem was heavily discussed last year and apple employee pointed out that there was one byte error the scsi driver routine for the quadra least the and system should not have that problem for most people the solution was get updated driver from the drive manufactor case mass microsystems wrote new driver which fixed the problem quadra all that occured early last year anyone know there updated driver for sony dat drives can get mine work with our see sony dat retrospect problems posted this group but also having problems with other new macs cheers matt matthew riddle matthew ariel unimelb edu science multimedia teaching unit tel faculty science fax university melbourne australia opinions are own
comp.sys.mac.hardware	upgrading read recent tidbits about the possibility putting interested doing but would like know more about does involve just replacing the that the daughterboard does involve getting new daughter board also would the able run with the screen not pretty know but possible and course what would the damage any info would appreciated thanks advance jay fogel
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help gcc plp laser printer cng utoronto charles writes have plp laser printer make gcc technologies have problem with dirty first page the top portion the first always smeared with black toner across the page print more than one page the same time the problem does not occur other pages cleaned the printer but still does not help can anyone offer any solutions know the phone gcc technologies the phone number for gcc believe don have the number for tech support handy alan
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra clock chip followup have replaced the osz mhz yesterday and truble all quadra now works mhz stable for more than hours have also tried mhz osz but after hour quadra died not sure what was the reason for that but risky run fast most your quadras should work mhz without any problems but safety tip backup from your harddisk befor you start upgrade during mhz test damaged harddisk and had hardtime get working again once again backup befor you start now the speedometer results after replacing the osz speedometer report for menes rainer prepared april machine record version user comment quadra mhz and ram disk mbyte ram mbyte vram system information computer mac quadra cpu fpu integral fpu mmu integral mmu color quickdraw bit system version finder version appletalk version laserwriter version laser prep version not found imagewriter version rom version rom size bit depth horizontal dpi vertical dpi primary screen size physical ram logical ram results uses mac classic cpu graphics disk name hard disk tested ram disk math performance rating benchmark results uses mac classic kwhetstones dhrystones towers quicksort bubble sort queens puzzle permutations fast fourier matrix multiply integer matrix multiply sieve benchmark average fpu tests uses mac ffpu fast fourier fpu kwhetstones fpu matrix mult fpu test average color tests uses mac black white colors colors colors color test average very interesting are the graphics results graphics couldn belief this but true two points which cause problems are the mbyte ram solder the board the are only rams and run the upperlimit with mhz the next part which may cause trouble are the video rams have the orignal vrams from apple quadra here you are also the upperlimit where most the chips running but isn garantied run most the other parts the quadra board running there clockspeed they wont make truble the most importaned question neat new heat sink would say after running quadra for more than hours the heat sink really cool mhz with heat sink mutch warmer than the the quadra didn see any problems the room temperatur was celsius you living area were hot and your room temperatur not mutch below would suggest new heat sink with ventilator stay the safe side hope you will have the same success than had rainer email menes statistik muenchen
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra article apr yuma acns colostate edu lance colostate edu daniel philip fagan wrote does anybody know the difference between the quarda and quadra quarda popular misspelling quadra which has mhz processor the has mhz and some local buses the motherboard run faster the video different also the can run and believe monitor bit color without vram upgrade besides the faster processor the has scsi and far know faster due separate processors handling those functions the can output bit video monitor with meg vram and bit with meg hope this helps anand armani edgeway wimsey edgeways infolink armani edgeway wimsey gui bbs anand the views expressed here are mine from firstclass postalunion lite from north vancouver canada
comp.sys.mac.hardware	problems with laserwriter print driver and printmonitor are having problems with our laserwriter print drivers going bad various people machines our appletalk network our network people have and versions the laserwriter print driver have been solving the problem reinstalling the print driver but time consuming and real pain the printmonitor software also seems bad frequently have also just been replacing over and over seems keep things running does anyone out there have any ideas about what may causing the printing software bad are there known init conflicts network conflicts would appreciate communication about any similar experiences you may have had ideas you have you could send email directly karens edc org thanks karen
comp.sys.mac.hardware	nec fge nec were told that the resolution the fge could only and that the could has anybody tried running these higher resolutions somewhere thought read that the monitor may make the type too small read any help would appreciated steve
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pin simms where article qulhsinnm charnel ecst csuchico edu smedley ecst csuchico edu steven medley writes looking for meg pin simm for centris where the best place purchase one stock shipping warrenty and possible phone numbers that can order one soon possible tech corp technology blvd suite box austin fax monty solomon box framingham monty roscom think com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	non apple mini docks available there are minidocks with math coprocessors available right now and not aware any development demand appears low for such device right now but sure some enterprising vendor would create one there were sufficient demand lynn from planet bmug the firstclass bbs bmug the message contained this posting does not any way reflect bmug official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	driver for dataframe log onto supermac bbs and download the drive manager software you will find there you can don want call their bbs call their tech support number lynn from planet bmug the firstclass bbs bmug the message contained this posting does not any way reflect bmug official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac plus constantly rebooting article netnews upenn edu jeffe eniac seas upenn edu george wrote basically the mac pluses are constantly rebooting themselves the reboot button were being pushed sometimes the mac able fully boot well this threads been going long enough add diferent twist yet another twist expiriencing the same kind problem with although not frequent any suggestions karl johan olsen internet karljo imv aau dept information and media science university aarhus denmark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	price drop within lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons writes alas this funny system sounds like good deal but this centris the motherboard simm ethernet and coprocessor well actually instead just had say that keep people from saying there such thing without coprocessor since the fpu built into the chip actually there such thing without coprocessor called the this redesign the full which people are calling the although have been told number people that motorola doesn call the full that without the integrated fpu hardware just isn there
comp.sys.mac.hardware	educational pricing article kyv dal hayes dal kevin hayes writes apr leland stanford edu stchang leland stanford edu steven kuk jin chang writes there seems some confusion about educational discounts true apple has different dealer price for educational and retail vendors but those price differences are not that great about maybe but the end user price more like less here canada anyway for what worth experience has been that the educational discount which has taken advantage teacher roughly equivalent the corporate discounts that able get employee fairly large multi state corporation which usually least good what one can get one the discount computer chains compusa for purposes budget estimation around here usually just knock around off srp the doge south louis dobbs approved media conspirator one step beyond sundays louis community radio you pay know what you really think bob dobbs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerpc nubus rumors read macweek that some developers are getting nubus cards from apple with pre release powerpc chips them does this mean that when the chip released those with old apples will able take advantage the powerpc risc technology just inserting card don know anything about hardware can someone tell how much cludge this would archon
comp.sys.mac.hardware	internalizing removable drive possible rip external syquest removable drive out its external casing and install into the empty bay slot centris know special bracket would need purchased but there any power hookup scsi constraints that would prevent anyone has done could they mail some instructions doesn seem that overwhelming undertaking nicholas lamendola who controls the fork controls the meal his choice npl lingo psych rochester edu npl merlin cvs rochester edu lard
comp.sys.mac.hardware	svga monitors and centris the real story what the real story here can hook any svga montitor the centris internal video need make own cable doesn not come with one has apple released tech note with the pinouts for doing such the reasoj ask that seems the prices for svga are lower than that their mac counterparts mike
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they kept hours day yes know computers and harddisk drives should always but what about monitors they generate lots heat should shouldn keep them hours day any advice thanks take care paul vote for turning them off night the stress off little harmful don turn off then back hour later etc but turning them off for hours overnight good idea the electricy consumption will down you turn them off overnight along with heat have lot year old machines the basement that still work but who cares they are off hours day
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they kept hours day stubbs hawk ukans edu jerry stubbs writes the electricy consumption will down you turn them off overnight along with heat wonder how hard would what would add the cost design desktop machines with power saver feature built which would reduce power consumption automatically the machine idle for more than some amount time this pretty standard portable machines and the same kinds tricks could played spinning down disks turning off screens reducing clock speed etc the advantage this over just turning the thing off would you don have remember anything and the machine still available over the network the tricky part might defining what constitutes inactivity certainly you don want wake from sleep mode just because somebody pinged you but you want wake least the cpu somebody logs via telnet connection wouldn worry too much about wasting electricity the winter months that energy just getting turned into heat may not efficient way heat building the central heating plant but not too bad the summer though disaster not only are you wasting that power but you probably also running the air conditioning get rid the waste heat roy smith roy nyu edu hippocrates project department microbiology coles nyu school medicine first avenue new york this never happened bart simpson
comp.sys.mac.hardware	duo price reduction joel siegel jdsiegel garnet berkeley edu wrote yes duo prices have dropped don have the msrp reductions though you can find recent tidbits archived sumex but here the berkeley educational price list old new duo duo duo duo modem and the michigan state university pricing the systems powerbook duo portable mac powerbook duo ram promotion expires mac duo bundle flpy adpt drive internet michael kwun umich edu speak only for myself bitnet userw umichum support local cooperative
comp.sys.mac.hardware	disk mount problems have external drive connected iisi this never recognized and mounted system startup can mount with the scsi control panel running system and everything properly terminated would anyone have helpful idea the problem douglas rand drand osf org osf motif dev snail cambridge center cambridge disclaimer don know osf agrees with let vote amateur radio
comp.sys.mac.hardware	appletalk imagewriter compatible needed since image writer was discontinued there apple talk printer with continous paper printer would like know there are any possibility connect ibm compatible printer apple talk net directly with net serial hardware and need any other software
comp.sys.mac.hardware	good hard disk driver for non apple drives sys compat need add your message have major problem hands have rodime series external hard drive rodime out business and not writing any more drivers particular drivers compatable with system after talking rodime they recommended the following hard drive manufacturers and their driver software that were compatable scsi hard drive manufacturer driver software fwb hard disk tool kit fwb hard disk tool kit personal cie silverlining higher casa blanca driver software drive anybody has experience with these driver software packages please reply there shareware out there would like get hands would much rather send good developer the because most the software mentioned purchased would cost and respectively thanks advance bob dohr the association bringing kind word and helpful spirit wherever can are the association multi line macintosh bbs grand blanc michigan echoes from fido internet familynet icdmnet plus files hst bis testify bob dohr internet bob dohr fidonet org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra clock chip followup have also moved mhz clock thus far not problems not totallysurprised had run mhz cpu clock speed using vso mhz rated daystar quadracache got very hot mhz and would fail previously glued piece aluminum stock the speed ram chips and runs cool without problems mhz the combination faster than
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pin simms for careful before buying purchased pin simms for quadra from chip merchant been very satisfied with them the past either one alone works but both together fail called apple for advice and was told that there was problem with composite simms only non composite simms should used with the chip merchant confirmed that they presently sell only composite pin simms simms need both and non composite marty sachs usda ars agronomy uiuc msachs cso uiuc edu internet turner hall msachs uiucvmd bitnet goodwin ave phone urbana fax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	laserwriter driver have heard that the version printer driver out for the apple laserwriter has ayone heard how where get this driver please email thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they kept hours day from article igh function mps ohio state edu nevai mps ohio state edu paul nevai yes know computers and harddisk drives should always but what about monitors they generate lots heat should shouldn keep them hours day any advice thanks take care paul paul nevai nevai mps ohio state edu dept math ohio state university office columbus ohio math dept fax well don exaclty know what should done but what keep cpu and turn monitor off when not use this much for easing power consumption anything though turning off the monitor when not use has the advantage requiring less ram than screen saver but requires more memory remember turn off pretty easy remember turn though instrument approach procedures automation dot faa ami bryan oakley ctrbdo iapa mailhost ecn uoknor edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	ugradable tempest david tsai andrew cmu edu writes going possible upgrade tempest that the current rumor that was started macweek last month how motherboard switch how else would you accomplish this kind upgrade probably gonna expensive right course this apple are talking about here hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris mhz mhz paryavi matt ksu ksu edu saiid paryavi writes just put mhz cpu into centris now have math coprocessor but possible speed the centris run either mhz mhz not without replacing most the chips the motherboard the isn like the iisi was meaning that the motherboard the actually designeds run the speed the cpu and not designed run higher speed like mhz but forced run the speed slower cpu mhz didn see any oscillators the motherboard like the ones the iisi motherboard where the oscillator for the centris there more than one oscillator you are talking about the cpu oscillator chip think that located under the socket for the least this what have read some other posts this group hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	third party monitor iisi what the deal with the pds slot the iisi recently purchased mac iisi want add non apple monitor the system was told that you could buy degree angled pds nubus adaptor card you can fit standard nubus card into the computer mistaken have buy pds monitor card specifically for the iisi seen the pds monitor cards for the but they seem expensive and not exactly made money any ideas help clue randy riegsecker barney must die need somebody shove disclaimer the opinions expressed here are mine and not anyone else
comp.sys.mac.hardware	duo price reduction kwun css itd umich edu michael kwun writes and the michigan state university pricing the systems powerbook duo portable mac powerbook duo ram promotion expires then might already cheaper mac duo bundle flpy adpt drive same here the for that bundle peter internet michael kwun umich edu speak only for myself bitnet userw umichum support local cooperative
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they kept hours day wonder how hard would what would add the cost design desktop machines with power saver feature built which would reduce power consumption automatically the machine idle for more than some amount time believe that apple sun and number other desktop machine manufacturers have agreed with the government incorporate power saving techniques this also something that governments other countries are likely require the future expect see this may include the ability for the system fully power down the monitor via controllable power outlet and power back automatically this sell screen saver software companies goals for idle power consumption have been set something like watts for the system not including the monitor don quote this note that many businesses the savings will substantial especially you factor reduced load air conditioning systems sun did study that indicated that simply powering off monitors for the night would save the company sun itself the order per year putting other and automatic power saving features would probably have greater than double that value given that are seeing more and more reason leave our work and home computers getting faxes automatically getting email building power consumption control into all machines has potential cut off the national power consumption based data heard btw when encouraging employees power off monitors when leaving work was pointed out that this should only done with monitors with the power switch front there was some indication that monitors with power switches the rear are not designed tolerate lots power cycling this may only apply the monitors use but might worth checking you happen have monitor with the switch back
comp.sys.mac.hardware	svga monitors and centris the real story what the real story here can hook any svga montitor the centris internal video need make own cable doesn not come with one has apple released tech note with the pinouts for doing such the reasoj ask that seems the prices for svga are lower than that their mac counterparts mike having been discusse essentially adnausium the answer yes least for the configuration you can get adaptor called mac vga from james engineering and this will let you display and the monitor capable think the requires khz horizontal sync use this sony gives slightly wider screen than the adaptor hope helps
comp.sys.mac.hardware	price drop within article dartvax dartmouth edu hades dartmouth edu writes lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons writes alas this funny system sounds like good deal but this centris the motherboard simm ethernet and coprocessor well actually instead just had say that keep people from saying there such thing without coprocessor since the fpu built into the chip actually there such thing without coprocessor called the this redesign the full which people are calling the although have been told number people that motorola doesn call the full that without the integrated fpu hardware just isn there that what the pseudo disclaimer supposed say sorry for the confusion nate hate quotations this message brought you tell what you know nate sammons and the number ralph waldo emerson longs lance colostate edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	question about laser printers there bancrupcy sale coming soon and wonder anyone know about these printers olivetti canon lbp nec silentwriter kyocera laser which the above any has postscript and appletalk interface builtin please reply mail tommy nordgren what woman that you forsake her royal institute technology and the hearth fire stockholm and the home acre tno nada kth with the old grey widow maker
comp.sys.mac.hardware	upgrading mac plus use superdrive hello out networld have lab old macs ses and pluses don have enough money buy all new machines are considering buying few superdrives for our old macs allow folks with high density disks use our equipment was wondering what experiences good bad people have had with this sort upgrade murray murray andromeda rutgers edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they kept hours day article apr utkvx utk edu ljones utkvx utk edu leslie jones writes cnn factiod the last few months stated that all the computers the are left hours day days week don recall cnn source yeah but they probably included industries and educational institutions that uses mostly work stations suns dec ibm etc etc which turns monitor off left untouched for min chung yang leslie jones ljones utkvx utk edu who turns off his monitor when not using
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris upgrade price jebg uxa cso uiuc edu johann beda writes anyone have price quote vendor for the centris upgrade been quoted price till august after which will cost this course doesn include the trade rebate for the board thus for one gets centris meg onboard with both the fpu and ethernet anyone else have any info this price from the university illinois micro order center are there any other vendors who offer similar prices falcon microsystems landover the sole apple authorized reseller the federal government has similar open market prices the upgrade too new general services adminsitration schedule yet joe gurman gurman solar physics branch nasa goddard space flight center greenbelt usa gurman uvsp gsfc nasa gov federal employees are prohibited from holding opinions under the hatch act therefore any opinions expressed herein are somebody else
comp.sys.mac.hardware	moniterm vcx mac which card use have nice vxc moniterm monitor formerly used atari think such monitors are have been used macs can someone tell what mac can use what card should get use etc this monitor also has label the front saying viking and has connector
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they kept hours day cnn factiod the last few months stated that all the computers the are left hours day days week don recall cnn source ljones utkvx utk edu leslie jones yeah but most those are big hulking mainframes which have monitors factoid fabricated corrupted tidbit ordinary information diluted dpm murphy npri npri com systems programmer large when every one dead cameron the great game finished alexandria not before hurree babu kim
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iici rom offers bit clean rom for iix sku news udel edu johnston udel edu bill johnston writes this particular case see reason the trouble rom swapping the apple bit enabler has problems but mode works just fine with and still not aware any technical reason for upgrading the rom iix other than getting bit clean rom what other features would iici rom iix provide any there probably market for used mother boards well they might sell rom anyway shreve sells them for about can justify this for bit cleanliness when mode works
comp.sys.mac.hardware	hook mac modem has anyone ever hooked hayes macintosh modem the serial port what are the pin outs this have mac printer cable hook the mac serial port can hook the two mini ports together have swap pins thanx advance scott
comp.sys.mac.hardware	way connect iisi there way connect powerbook mac iisi and personal laserwriter that can not necessarily silmultaneoulsy print from either the iisi and file share between the iisi and know can get the expensive upgrade for but can afford that thanks mark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	need latest model developer notes does anyone know where can get the developer notes for the new mac models like iivx iii centris thank for any information please reply email iwan gunawan internet gunawan envmsa eas asu edu gunawan enuxhb eas asu edu gunawan enuxva eas asu edu arizona state university
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pin simms for careful before buying article fce news cso uiuc edu marty sachs msachs cso uiuc edu writes purchased pin simms for quadra from chip merchant been very satisfied with them the past either one alone works but both together fail called apple for advice and was told that there was problem with composite simms only non composite simms should used with the chip merchant confirmed that they presently sell only composite pin simms simms need both and non composite simms not have composite simms although many most simms are pin simms allow two memory banks per simm thus permitting the use dram devices the same ones used simms used for two banks one simm can imagine that would cheaper build simm using drams the parts reached and exceeded bit for bit price parity with the parts some time ago probably possible build single bank simm using parts this could cause problems not sure why you want this though dual bank simm would cheaper build than single bank composite one dale adams
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they kept hours day the electricy consumption will down you turn them off overnight along with heat wonder how hard would what would add the cost design desktop machines with power saver feature built which would reduce power consumption automatically the machine idle for more than some amount time apple and several other manufacturers have already committed monitor design that does just that was announced along with the new administration efforts cut waste and fuel consumption know that the buildings where work gigawatts are wasted unused always machines and monitors kelley thomas kelley boylan powerpc ibm austin kelleyb austin ibm com buy and pay for own opinions
comp.sys.mac.hardware	and extended keyboard article apr otago grads otago writes hello saw this question posted week ago but far could tell answer appeared the net what the good oil connecting the apple extended keyboard powerbook the earlier questioner wonderd this would any help gratefully recieved will summarise the net necessary the general consensus seems that extended keyboard the new ergonomic keyboard with mouse the rated for which apparently identical the and the works fine with said attachments thanks very much those who replied now way order battleship and mouse john now wonder about electric toothbrush thinking but assume that this would apply all
comp.sys.mac.hardware	performa article apr tolten puc rcvillab isluga puc rodrigo carlos villablanca writes have question which the diference between performa and lciii want know which better you know the specifications and the prices this computers can you tell email rcvillab isluga puc like know the diference between the apple monitor and the performa monitor too performa classic performa performa iii performa well nothing the performas are made low cost business solutions the have bundled software modems etc because they have retail price you might able get steeper discount them shop around far the monitors buy party much cheaper brett there nothing passionate vested interest disguised intellectual conviction sean casey the white plague frank herbert
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they kept hours day article uhhi hdg austin ibm com kelleyb austin ibm com kelley boylan writes yes know computers and harddisk drives should always but what about monitors they generate lots heat should shouldn keep them hours day any advice thanks take care paul there has been empirical evidence support the first statement true there power surge startup that has the potential damage but the internal power supply well protected turned mac and off six seven times day for three years without problem the monitor the same leave waste lot electricity twice much television possibly more the computer itself uses far less electricity than monitor depends the size but one thing not use self shutdown power shutdown iron appliance the same electric line after new monitor and power supply and modem wife still doesn think her iron fault she should know better being bio med engineer brett there nothing passionate vested interest disguised intellectual conviction sean casey the white plague frank herbert
comp.sys.mac.hardware	macintosh weenies suck scsi disks think the subject title says all anybody that relies scsi dick for stoarage pain the ass
comp.sys.mac.hardware	really stupid monitor question have iisi portrait display and love using the built video support its slow and deals with colors grays wondering get video card how much does this tend speed things and will able get more than bits have combicache fpu does this limit choices video cards thanks peace fighting for peace like cking for virginity don just adopt opinions some you are homeboys develop them but only the homeboy from hell
comp.sys.mac.hardware	svga monitors and centris the real story article moyman jonathan ecn purdue edu mike moya moyman ecn purdue edu writes what the real story here can hook any svga montitor the centris internal video need make own cable doesn not come with one has apple released tech note with the pinouts for doing such the reasoj ask that seems the prices for svga are lower than that their mac counterparts first all wouldn advise wasting your time with apple they treat you like idiot and you won get any answers personal opinion the safest thing match the svga monitor scanning rates with apple rates don know apple video scanning rates but use the micron xceed rates they good approximation about cables you just have out someplace like fry and get few mac vga cables and try them out have viewsonic and use nec adaptor other monitors may use other adaptors also have mac adaptor that tricks system into thinking the monitor apple need readjust the vertical and horizontal sizes but works fairly well just like everything else life the right lane ends half mile ravi konchigeri mongoose leland stanford edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii problems sideways article qmir usenet ins cwru edu kephart snowhite eeap cwru edu kephart writes article qmgjk menudo edu sunnyt coding bchs edu writes its not good idea have horizontally formatted hard disk vertical position the drive formatted horizontal position can not completely compensate for the gravitational pull vertical position asked this question while ago while contemplating placing side received response from someone seagate sorry trashed the message stating that most newer drives seagates the least can very well compensate for gravity this means that horizontally formatted drive can later placed vertically with data integrity problems there any problems putting drive formatted vertically its side horizontally got drive few years ago with the rubber feet the side etc and have used like that since obviously designed for that orientation however doesn fit under any the clever places can think place would really like lay flat and put under low shelf this probably not newer drive and only meg but when bought was large drive for average user comparable buying meg drive today old meg drive fragile not new meg drive just curious jim melton novice guru email flash austin lockheed com far know our voice mail computer has never had fax undetected error
comp.sys.mac.hardware	why the drive speeds differ the most likely explanation may have something with the fact that greater density information exists the larger capacity disk drive than the smaller one your running the drive mac would recommend shareware utility called timedrive which tests seek scsi throughput and rotational speed this utility should let you know what the differences are between the drives the views expressed this posting those the individual author only bbs number maccontent victoria first iconic bbs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	deskwriter drivers how install can someone tell which the files that come with where and for what purpose what can left out for instance you don want background printing far can remember all you need get your deskwriter and printing using the driver drag the driver itself either serial appletalk depending your needs the system folder you don need the fonts anything else all you want straight forward bare bones basic printing don have anything else installed and can still print deskwriter using sys and driver tony the views expressed this posting those the individual author only bbs number maccontent victoria first iconic bbs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	problems with backgrounder help everyone experiencing very annoying problem with background printing the deskwriter sys deskwriter driver powerbook when print from say word see the message spooling disk but sometimes nothing prints checking memory map thanks now menus see that backgrounder has not loaded restarting fixes this seems that backgrounder quitting unexpectedly and that its status multifinder not aware allows this without being informed message such backgrounder quit unexpectedly have you ever seen this problem before there may may not related problem have experienced problems putting computer sleep choosing sleep from the finder menu sometimes does nothing today whim checked the memory map and discovered that backgrounder was not loaded restarted reloaded backgrounder and was able put machine sleep usual just mere coincidence the backgrounder crash preventing machine from going sleep has anyone seen this problem seriously considering the purchase stylewriterii because the poor quality the software please send your answers directly and post the net yours truly marc bizer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra apr edgeway wimsey armani edgeway wimsey writes besides the faster processor the has scsi and far know faster due separate processors handling those functions the can output bit video monitor with meg vram and bit with meg actually the quadra and both have the same scsi controller running different speed they are not scsi but can support certain scsi commands that take advantage faster drives the processors are present both machines the runs its bus mhz while the bus mhz the quadra supports bit color all monitor sizes well bit resolution also supports resolution the supports supports bit and does not support all vram the faster and faster the john rutirasiri
comp.sys.mac.hardware	macwatch has anybody heard about thing called macwatch saw couple years ago watch with reviever and transmitter for your mac the practical upshot that your mac can page your watch and display small message flatmate off the states for week two soon and interested getting one any info would appreciated thanx advance glenn
comp.sys.mac.hardware	bit card does not work with kve news berlin ossip berlin ossip kaehr writes have and generation systems bit pds card for screen worked great until upgraded from ram now with sys and mode enabler does not boot tech support person said the card does not support these bit fixes guess right early versions the rasterops cards did not either but they fixed and people with problems can get free rom upgrade from rasterops but when pressing the shift key while booting when the ext monitor goes black after having been grey the system sometimes boots properly and then works with the and full graphics what happening very easy you boot without the mode control panel then will disable rather not reinstall the bit clean patches when you run you must bit adressing mode check about this macintosh and see you havce system thanks lot for any advice please answer mail sent seperately ossip kaehr ossip berlin voice ossip kaehr hermannstrasse berlin germany tel email ossip berlin povl pedersen macintosh specialist knows some dos and unix too pope imv aau povlphp uts uni finger pope imv aau for pgp public key
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra armani edgeway wimsey anand mani writes besides the faster processor the has scsi and far know faster due separate processors handling those functions mostly the does have scsi controller chip scsi chip but does not have the chips use the wide fast scsi modes and therefore doesn offer much more the way scsi performance over the does howrever have faster controller than the this where the real speed boost comes from hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	good aps experience just thought would pass along experience with aps recently ordered external quantum the salesperson was friendly and knowledgeable the order came when promised and the invoice was the price quoted installing the drive was simple didn even have read the manual the scsi address set pushbutton arrangement daisy chained the drive from syquest also from aps and booted with problems still going through all the shareware that comes the drive pretty good assortment the drive fan bit noisier than would like but think the speed seems very good although haven run any objective tests also seems spin pretty quickly can hit the power switch for and almost immediately power the mac without any problems booting from the drive some observations the case plastic good quality though while older syquest case metal there one led which normally green and flickers red the drive accessed just data point rich richard long long mcntsh enet dec com ludicrous speed decwrl mcntsh enet dec com long dark helmet long mcntsh dec decwrl enet dec com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they kept hours day article ltdpedinnrsj exodus eng sun com gsager heliacal eng sun com gary sager writes btw when encouraging employees power off monitors when leaving work was pointed out that this should only done with monitors with the power switch front there was some indication that deleted this pet peeve mine wish companies would put power switches the front the equipment apple monitor had the switch the front would happily power off night almost every piece computer equipment own use has the switch the back including external hard drives and modems why hope front mounted switches become the norm and soon rich richard long long mcntsh enet dec com ludicrous speed decwrl mcntsh enet dec com long dark helmet long mcntsh dec decwrl enet dec com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	slowdowns drg biomath mda uth tmc edu david gutierrez writes article tfsquad org douce tfsquad org andrew geweke writes currently managing among many other labs lab with three iis mac plus with external and laserwriter ntx problem the iis seem intermittently slow snail pace this happens intermittently macs our department ranging from iisi quadra can end the slowdown immediately unplugging the ethernet cable from the mac seems that something the network puts out these packet storms every few days these storms have the effect making our macs slow down crawl thank you very much these computers behave exactly like what you describing now question running the lowest all budgets public education how can analyze this all need some sort packet counter any exist and where are they thanks again andrew geweke douce tfsquad org andrew geweke the firing squad bbs public access usenet mail and news saint paul minnesota
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they kept hours day long article npri npri com murphy npri npri com david murphy wrote cnn factiod the last few months stated that all the computers the are left hours day days week don recall cnn source ljones utkvx utk edu leslie jones yeah but most those are big hulking mainframes which have monitors factoid fabricated corrupted tidbit ordinary information diluted dpm murphy npri npri com systems programmer large when every one dead cameron the great game finished alexandria not before hurree babu kim bob brown
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors kept hrs day long article npri npri com murphy npri npri com david murphy wrote cnn factiod the last few months stated that all the computers the are left hours day days week don recall cnn source ljones utkvx utk edu leslie jones here something add the discussion newsgroups misc activism progressive from james reynolds jpr lehigh edu subject when you not using turn off date mon mar gmt lines research has shown that the majority the time that the united states million personal computers are they are not actively being used addition percent are left running night and weekends computer equipment now the fastest growing private sector use electricity computers alone are believed account for five percent commercial electricity consumption and may account for ten percent the year you are one those who leave them after you done would big environmental benefit you would just turn off when you not using only takes second two also the majority the power your computer uses not consumed the computer itself but the monitor you can turn the computer off then please just turn off the monitor the environmental protection agency has formed alliance with computer manufacturers promote the introduction energy efficient pcs that power down automatically when not being used and thus reduce the air pollution caused power generation these new computers will save enough electricity power both vermont and new hampshire and save billion dollars annual electricity bills look for the special epa energy star logo when you buy computers they should available one two years according the epa studies the energy saved will prevent emissions million tons annually the equivalent five million automobiles also tons and tons nitrogen oxide emissions will saved these are the major pollutants responsible for acid rain please your part responsible you not using then just turn off information herein partially taken from the information please almanac page and the envirnomental protection agency environmental news please redistribute this message every computer bulletin board network memo system etc you can think archive and post every often you can let get the word out everyone need responsible about the way consume jim reynolds end
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they kept hours day article tscinn srvr engin umich edu chyang engin umich edu chung hsiung yang writes article apr utkvx utk edu ljones utkvx utk edu leslie jones writes cnn factiod the last few months stated that all the computers the are left hours day days week don recall cnn source yeah but they probably included industries and educational institutions that uses mostly work stations suns dec ibm etc etc which turns monitor off left untouched for min none the suns decs used have turned off the monitor automatically matthew russotto russotto eng umd edu russotto wam umd edu some news readers expect disclaimer here just say police searches and seizures make them use force not responsible for bodily harm resulting from following above advice
comp.sys.mac.hardware	svga monitors and centris the real story 
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iif iig slot there seems pds slot the above printers what mark law aukuni perry faculty law auckland university new zealand
comp.sys.mac.hardware	active matrix clr know that apple working active matrix color powerbook when going come out heard rumor that will two months and another that will seen the macworld expo boston what the word jon hutchison andrew cmu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they kept hours day from james reynolds jpr lehigh edu organization lehigh university subject when you not using turn off multiple recipients list psuvm bitnet research has shown that the majority the time that the united states million personal computers are they are not actively being used addition percent are left running night and weekends computer equipment now the fastest growing private sector use electricity computers alone are believed account for five percent commercial electricity consumption and may account for ten percent the year you are one those who leave them after you done would big environmental benefit you would just turn off when you not using only takes second two also the majority the power your computer uses not consumed the computer itself but the monitor you can turn the computer off then please just turn off the monitor the environmental protection agency has formed alliance with computer manufacturers promote the introduction energy efficient pcs that power down automatically when not being used and thus reduce the air pollution caused power generation these new computers will save enough electricity power both vermont and new hampshire and save billion dollars annual electricity bills look for the special epa energy star logo when you buy computers they should available one two years according the epa studies the energy saved will prevent emissions million tons annually the equivalent five million automobiles also tons and tons nitrogen oxide emissions will saved these are the major pollutants responsible for acid rain please your part responsible you not using then just turn off information herein partially taken from the information please almanac page and the envirnomental protection agency environmental news please redistribute this message every computer bulletin board network memo system etc you can think archive and post every often you can let get the word out everyone need responsible about the way consume jim reynolds susanmarie harrington university michigan
comp.sys.mac.hardware	what that chime happened classic once startup after the usual powerup tone there were chimes kinda like sol the music scale and hanged before giving the happy mac had powerup this was asked before but can remember the answer tried find the answer from the faqs and other ftp sites but avail can anyone tell what those unusual chimes mean spurious memory check error thanks willie
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris clock adjustment was reading review the centris this months macworld and the reviewer said that for you could make adjustment the clock speed the chip and change from mhz mhz haven heard this before and don think that this the chip replacement with fpu that have seen much talk about anyone have any ideas cwera edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris clock adjustment the article was probably referring changing the clock oscillator manner similar that done quadra and iisi haven read report this actually being done centris but supposedly this also works and centris machines
comp.sys.mac.hardware	rgb owners what kind power cable came with your monitor here the scoop for the past two years have been using with sony and lapis video card this past month bought quadra and now using the sony has been shipped home father who planning getting apple monitor the trinitron one question this what kind power cord will get with the apple monitor does come with two types recall one can hook the power cord apple monitor the back machine such quadra however for father there extra plug which allows use the power supply needs plug into the socket separately does the monitor come with cable that will allow him this will have buy different cable yes where can purchase such cable apple kind enough provide both types cables thanks advance derek derek fong email thewho plume mit edu dept physical oceanography thewho darla whoi edu bldg clark laboratory massachusetts institute technology woods hole oceanographic institution cambridge woods hole
comp.sys.mac.hardware	macintosh weenies suck scsi disks article wdmk jrn hawk ukans edu abg hawk ukans edu unknown class user writes think the subject title says all anybody that relies scsi dick for stoarage pain the ass looks like someone left their terminal unattended tttttt eeeee eeeee eeee eeee steve liu vvv drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu eeeee eeeee drlovemd jhuvms hcf jhu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	where get power cord plug non apple monitor into quadra power supply have sony whch would like hook that get its power though quadra power supply had apple monitor could plug the monitor directly into the computer that when hit the power button the keyboard both the monitor and computer and when shut down both off there extension cord type cable can buy which allows plug existing power cord into and then plug this extension cable into quadra any thoughts and comments would appreciated thanks advance derek derek fong email thewho plume mit edu dept physical oceanography thewho darla whoi edu bldg clark laboratory massachusetts institute technology woods hole oceanographic institution cambridge woods hole
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they kept hours day article innsua mojo eng umd edu russotto eng umd edu matthew russotto writes article tscinn srvr engin umich edu chyang engin umich edu chung hsiung yang writes article apr utkvx utk edu ljones utkvx utk edu leslie jones writes cnn factiod the last few months stated that all the computers the are left hours day days week don recall cnn source yeah but they probably included industries and educational institutions that uses mostly work stations suns dec ibm etc etc which turns monitor off left untouched for min none the suns decs used have turned off the monitor automatically maybe you should contact your schools officials and make them consider installing the necessary softwares hardwares that allows the unix works stations shuts off its monitor when left untouched does save lot energy chung yang matthew russotto russotto eng umd edu russotto wam umd edu some news readers expect disclaimer here just say police searches and seizures make them use force not responsible for bodily harm resulting from following above advice
comp.sys.mac.hardware	svga monitors and centris the real story the origional bit missing but long short follows the origional poster asked she could use any old vga svga monitor with centris hence title the answer this question unqualified yes you can use any old vga svga monitor with centris you need adaptor use mac vga from james engineering run between the two machines the adaptor have mentioned will convert centris three row vga svga pin adaptor for your monitor now the special interest disclaimer the above answer correct for using vga monitor resolution your monitor will sync khz horizontal the above adaptor will allow you choose resolution prefer this then you have the question matching adaptors and sync rates would advocate calling james engineering because they seem have clue the comment the person who said don bother calling apple because they will treat you like idiot this totally untrue apple will treat you like king assanine idiot for even considering going third party and you want this treatment wants you pay for their thech support line the supposedly compitantly one and then still has clue personal experience also the tech suppport for the vga monitor makers doesn see extend macs sony magnavox addition this find out the info you will have call dealers unless you can find the sync rates elsewhere ads like hardware that fits that rate monitor resolutions give the most favorable rating which usually means you can get this you use specialized application video card well you can get resolution this super smelly sock monitor that will let you display two full pages side side all you need our reasonably priced oder eater video board for and will give you ultra fast horizontal sync rate six fast kilohertz and three khz vertical note with the sony least the centris built video board using adaptor there boarder inch the sides the image after adjusting the horizontal width favorably possible using adaptor this can reduced about half inch
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they kept hours day article usenet ucs indiana edu chang hsu liu cliu silver ucs indiana edu writes from james reynolds jpr lehigh edu organization lehigh university subject when you not using turn off multiple recipients list psuvm bitnet research has shown that the majority the time that the united states million personal computers are they are not more quote deleted every often you can let get the word out everyone need responsible about the way consume jim reynolds susanmarie harrington university michigan have question why why people copy the article and the only new thing they add the post there name not picking this person seen few these just mistake missing something some unknown net equette missed somewhere skip over all the quoted material since already read and look for the non quoted material and all get the name addition this supposed agree second this what sorry just wondering missed something somewhere along the line
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerbook duo memory system slow any you hardware gurus out there know what kind memory architecture apple uses the powerbook duos the powerbook general what are the factors that make the duo slow compared desktop machine running the same processor the same speed mhz how many wait states are the memory system etc what kind data bus does use bit bit still slow when plugged into duodock anyone know general what kind shortcuts notebook manufacturers take when making notebooks heard notebook getting whopping mips rating similar desktop machine should getting about times that guess avery
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra marginal video are having problem with quadra that has stumped couple techs sent the vendor well this quadra stuffed with ram vram and some large disk think what happens that after certain variable interval time the video circuitry loses vertical sync quite apparent that the mac cpu still and the problem really seems lie with the video circuitry since you can still save your documents quit your aplpications even pull down menus etc only the display scrolling lik crazy pretty hard hit menu items had the original logic board replaced twice now and the same problem has been occurring all boards although the inteval between occurrences has varied the first board had this problem every about more often the cache was turned off yes off this the only symptom that not obviously related the video circuitry after all the cache the cpu right the second board had the problem every about minutes did not keep rather put the original back the current board have has this problem lot less often has gone about week without doing but did twice within hour yesterday the technicians that have come out try figure out seemed pretty sharp and tried number sensible things most which had previously tried ourselves anyway these included swapping the ram swapping the vram swapping monitors different apple rgb and apple rgb swapping cables disconnecting and booting from floppy sacrificing various small mammals here are some other facts when put rasterops procolor the nubus the problem fixed does not occur with the internal video the procolor video out the vendor cannot reproduce the problem back their shop the boards that exhibit our lab apple said getting little bit pissed off shipping boards that they cannot find anything wrong with and getting them shipped back faulty according here are some speculations bet that neither apple nor the vendor has tested these boards with that much ram and vram them simultaneaously which may have something with their finding hard reproduce the problem though can reproduce with just ram this probably red herring the vendor representative blames metal your walls claims that our walls have metal them which interferes with the mac operation have another the lab which works like charm though not the exact same spot please don tell this probably not want believe probably not poltergeists since they not have badges get past security the entrance our site has anyone any ideas please please email well posting cause seem spending lot time rebooting mac lately and have lot less time available read news thank you advance carlo tiana nasa ames research center carlo vision arc nasa gov carlo cvs rochester edu carlo white stanford edu always remember you have choice carlo vision arc nasa gov
comp.sys.mac.hardware	rgb owners what kind power cable came with your monitor article sshinnpvq senator bedfellow mit edu thewho athena mit edu derek fong wrote what kind power cord will get with the apple monitor does come with two types recently bought with monitor the monitor comes with the type power cable that plugs into the switched outlet the back most larger macs since the doesn have one these outlets there was extra standard power cable included with the computer for use with the monitor but was the computer box not the monitor box not the cables are particularly expensive though the most john werner werner soe berkeley edu berkeley school education
comp.sys.mac.hardware	asante ethernet adapter for lciii math chip article syk utoronto andy utoronto andy sun writes have been told local sales that asante has come out with this lciii pds ethernet adapter with optional socket the board question will the fpu performance degrade will put the the pds card socket instead the motherboard itself intuitively the math processor should always placed close the cpu but not sure how good apple called processor direct slot when comes throughout does anyone know the answer this have any experience with the asante lciii ethernet adapter thanks advance from what heard the pds slot clock only mhz compatible with the old style boards while the fpu socket close the cpu clocked mhz guess board designed for the lciii can get mhz clock from the extended pds socket real life thomas rnblom email thomas tornblom nexus comm snail mail communicator nexus phone box fax uppsala sweden
comp.sys.mac.hardware	where get power cord plug non apple monitor into quadra power supply finnq senator bedfellow mit edu thewho athena mit edu derek fong writes there extension cord type cable can buy which allows plug existing power cord into and then plug this extension cable into quadra there are two approaches your power cord the kind that detaches from the back the monitor most common you can get replacement power cord that will from the monitor the back the computer you can get adpater that connects the plug end the existing power cord and provides the proper end that plugs into the back the computer both cost about the same aprox and are available from many computer stores clone dealers are usually better having these things and good prices power cords are standard you don have looking for some special thing mac store
comp.sys.mac.hardware	hardware that fits mail order have anyone dealt with hardware that fits before have seen their both macworld and macuser and decided try them when needed new disk the result was not satisfactory and was just wondering was just isolated case like send letter the president hardware that fits anyone know the address the same address the one return the products mei mei software engineer email mms ltx portal com ltx corporation meisu netcom com disclaimer this personnal statement only nothing official
comp.sys.mac.hardware	radius videovision have opportunity buy radius videovision board for about normal street price which believe due change the board architecture vaguely maybe remember that there was some kind serious problem with this board which does composite pal secam video composite etc coversions plus also generating quicktime movies etc macweek was generally complimentary about the april issue does anyone have any information this board such the one which has been superceeded what about upgrade etc very curious hear from you thanks insert usual disclaimers here bob wier east texas state commerce texas wier merlin etsu edu watch for address change
comp.sys.mac.hardware	rumours about new duos brian hughes hades coos dartmouth edu wrote bredell tdb mats bredell writes the official paper got from apple about the new docking station apple themselves called the duodock plus what paper that been the price list here dartmouth since they released and has never been called the duodock plus was paper from apple sweden that announced some new products the new docking station was only one them and the paper arrived before showed the price list don know still called the duodock plus the price list could mistake someone apple sweden mats mats bredell mats bredell udac uppsala university computing center udac department medical systems fax sweden think straight gay
comp.sys.mac.hardware	clock speed hello new this area have read about some upgrades for the doing some modification make the thing run faster the performa about the same and would the homemade speed upgrade work thanks brad
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac portable powerbook answers eric choi fidonet org eric choi writes can the internal hard drive the macportable upgraded larger capacity there any third party modem greater than bps with fax option notice the macportable batteries are avalable thru the apple catalog eric choi internet eric choi fidonet org psi makes internal fax modem for the map portable but asks too much for retail buy external and save about there manufacturer that still makes internal for the portable they listed some the catalog magazines for apple stuff you can find bookstores see again post but again you might want just add small lightweight external built for the powerbooks you able use with new computer some day any other mac portable questions have cry uncle don blame voted for xxxxxxx gene theporch raider net gene wright theporch raider net the macinteresteds nashville
comp.sys.mac.hardware	outbound laptops questions looking for answers since the demise the outbound company what options would exist for were buy one their laptops since the outbounds etc use mac plus roms won that severly limit using future applications what reasonable price for one their laptops the prices seen seem extremely high considering the limited choices now how reliable have they proven any answers would helpful gene jackatak raider net gene wright jackatak raider net
comp.sys.mac.hardware	stereo sound problem mac games apr gallant apple com steve bollinger buzz apple com writes use the sound manager and work fine all machines the more the story developers don cheat really absolutely positively not allowed what about but going say anyway stop cheating sound really soon you will sorry even those without external speakers will disappointed with your sound future hardware the grace period about end the sound manager understandable now and works pretty well and will work even better soon use don silly using the sound manager quadra very well but using any the low end machines doesn simply work for decent action game since just steals too much time from the cpu this fact writing directly the hardware possible have simultaneous channels sampled sound khz for cost approx cycles exactly how would you that using the pray tell the correct thing use the the machines that can carry that extra load using the means and write directly the sound hardware the machines that can not the politically correct thing but from the developers point view christer ericson internet christer umu tel department computer science university umea umea sweden
comp.sys.mac.hardware	duo price reduction and the michigan state university pricing the systems powerbook duo portable mac powerbook duo ram promotion expires hmm new duo machines released sincerely lars lars sundstrom email sund tde lth lund university phone int dept applied electronics fax int box lund sweden
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help identifying this card have ethernet card that took out off old the card manufactured asante can read asante tech inc copyright maccon rev the card has fpu socket provides thin ethernet connector and there another connector which resembels phone connectors questions are will this card work any other model than serie given that pds card will work with the iisi pds slot think there may probleme because the has bit wide slots what that other conncetor the card anyone interested can ship any cee country sham tha seif lam yaghib ibaa oueichek oueichek imag imag jamal majd kutub lab genie informatique lgi kablak tareekh thulmaten imag inpg baadak staula ala shuhub felix viallet grenoble
comp.sys.mac.hardware	macintosh weenies suck scsi disks from article wdmk jrn hawk ukans edu abg hawk ukans edu unknown class user think the subject title says all anybody that relies scsi dick for stoarage pain the ass saying things like that incline one believe that you can get scsi work for your setup too bad daisy chained scsi devices off mac without problem limit scsi devices the daisy chain isn working for you really better state the problem unless all you really intend try get nasty mail that case perhaps you would better off posting alt masochistic type newsgroup callan csd csd uwm edu joel callan hey why you think have the answer street may you sit the tack success milwaukee and rise the occasion callan csd csd uwm edu joel callan hey why you think have the answer street may you sit the tack success milwaukee and rise the occasion
comp.sys.mac.hardware	simms prices looking for the best source for simms the usa not looking for the lowest prices but rather for the best quality simms and the one with the lowest rate defective simms know the chip merchant has good prices but they seems have high rate returned simms does anyone know how many simms you have purchase obtain quantity discount thank you sham tha seif lam yaghib ibaa oueichek oueichek imag imag jamal majd kutub lab genie informatique lgi kablak tareekh thulmaten imag inpg baadak staula ala shuhub felix viallet grenoble
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how they compare jeff lab queensu peter pundy writes even better than that how does based amiga perform daily tasks compared based iici answer except very few cases get butt kicked the amiga similar reason why people work used seeing sco unix running are suprised when they see sun home running faster mhz the sun was designed from the ground for unix the wasn this why you need gargantuan processor run windows the basic design the box all wrong would been better had put most windows plug rom card from day one priced people woulda loved apple had the right idea just stumbled bit the execution pete peter wargo wargopl sun soe clarkson edu mail saves trees documentation also makes the enable software world smaller
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra marginal video article apr galileo rochester edu carlo merlin cvs rochester edu carlo tiana writes are having problem with quadra that has stumped couple techs sent the vendor well this quadra stuffed with ram vram and some large disk think what happens that after certain variable interval time the video circuitry loses vertical sync quite apparent that the mac cpu still and the problem really seems lie with the video circuitry since you can still save your documents quit your aplpications even pull down menus etc only the display scrolling lik crazy pretty hard hit menu items other info deleted has anyone any ideas please please email well posting cause seem spending lot time rebooting mac lately and have lot less time available read news are you sure not problem caused software seen this sort effect when runaway program which could caused init conflict for instance accidentally wacks register the video hardware have you tried booting with extensions and then letting the just sit there the finder you might also want try changing bit addressing yes know you can access your full ram just experiment the video hardware registers can accessed then another thing try recovery measure use something like quickkeys change the pixel depth the display this reprograms some the video hardware registers and may allow sync restored dale adams
comp.sys.mac.hardware	apple video card friend mine recently acquired card for his iisi and was wondering why always starts black and white know there have been numerous reports about the worth the but was wondering anyone could elaborate little more the subject any replies encouraged thanks vance joe kasanic had similar problems other board types and the problem not result the board try zapping the pram holding down command option durring startup you will have reset everything your previous preferences the date time remain intact but the video board will start remembering previous settings anthony saxton elenay creations
comp.sys.mac.hardware	hardware that fits mail order ordered external floppy drive from them years ago when placed the order they said was stock and would ship the next day week passed and drive called them and they said they were out stock and drive should ship weeks since needed the drive right away both internal hard drive and floppy were dead cancelled order and haven dealt with them since chris kidwell andrew cmu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	appletalk imagewriter compatible needed article apr dcc uchile bherrero cec uchile beltran herreros writes since image writer was discontinued there apple talk printer with continous paper printer would like know there are any possibility connect ibm compatible printer apple talk net directly with net serial hardware and need any other software have not found quite the solution yet the following comes from macuser minifinders the grappler iisp dot matrix printer interface cartridge that emulates the imagewriter lqs includes networking and spooling software that allows multiple users orange micro you find out any more information please let know because the future have the same problem anyone else has the information please post thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	recommendation for laser printer looking for recommendations for laser printer will used mostly for text single user doesn need postscript printer any advice would appreciated
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they kept hours day roy mchip med nyu edu roy smith writes wonder how hard would what would add the cost design desktop machines with power saver feature built which would reduce power consumption automatically the machine idle for more than some amount time about hard was design the color classic since monitor behaves just this manner hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	performa demon desire wright edu not boomer writes performa classic performa performa lcii with monitor modem and software performa lcii monitor modem and software performa iii performa lciii with monitor modem and software detect trend here people the performas are made low cost business solutions the have bundled software modems etc the performas are made low cost widely distributed sold sears home machines not business machines they were developed compete with the retail outlet home computer market because they have retail price you might able get steeper discount them shop around sears probably going have the best price around most the time based the number they can purchase and stuff like that far the monitors buy party much cheaper not really the newer peformas come with what really third party monitor that apple has put their name and called the performa plus display essentially vga monitor quite cheap hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	apple video card article apr tcs las vegas elenay creations tcs las vegas anthony saxton writes friend mine recently acquired card for his iisi and was wondering why always starts black and white know there have been numerous reports about the worth the but was wondering anyone could elaborate little more the subject any replies encouraged thanks vance you may have been emailed this but the iisi power supply not rated handle the board remember when the came out and everyone complained about power supply this one result apple providing low cost computer and think they got lot flack for having relatively high end computer the time anyways that couldn even support their own video board even this isn what causing your problems you might develop one later eric
comp.sys.mac.hardware	rumours about new duos bredell tdb mats bredell writes was paper from apple sweden that announced some new products the new docking station was only one them and the paper arrived before showed the price list don know still called the duodock plus the price list could mistake someone apple sweden didn realize that you were talking about apple division other than appleus appleus being the main division the one that contains what most people feel are the correct names and configurations for the majority apple customers and generally assumed that you are talking about appleus when you just say apple least that how has always been this newsgroup all other apple divisions are apparantly free change names and configurations they feel like know that apple canada does this kind stuff all the time not mistake apple sweden giving different name apple product other than what appleus calls hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	wanted adb mouse keybd wanted apple adb mouse and keyboard contact paul gribble above email address asap paul
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iif iig slot article apr ccu aukuni mark perry markp ccu aukuni writes there seems pds slot the above printers what factory testing slot the test rig connects the connector and verifies proper board operation kevin kevin hester disclaimer nothing say has anything kevinh apple com with apple computer the red zone for portable beer brewer loading and unloading passenger vehicles only
comp.sys.mac.hardware	apple new keybd what can people tell about apple new keyboard the one that designed more ergonomically friendly have begun experience wrist and hand pains using standard keyboard and using powerbook what can people with similar experiences tell replies email please paul
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitor pinouts needed was wondering someone could send the pinouts the apple and rgb monitors those parts the docs seem have been misplaced around here thanks lot for your help kevin kevin lepard internet lepard mayo edu disclaimer these opinions are mine alone and not necessarily represent those the mayo foundation mayo clinic any other person institution
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they kept hours day gary sager gsager heliacal eng sun com wrote btw when encouraging employees power off monitors when leaving work was pointed out that this should only done with monitors with the power switch front there was some indication that monitors with power switches the rear are not designed tolerate lots power cycling this may only apply the monitors use but might worth checking you happen have monitor with the switch back not expert but having spent much too much life looking for the power switch the brightness control the gauss etc etc etc firm belief that the only reason any controls switches knobs whatever places where they are hard reach because the designers put them there deliberately the real question weather this because stupidity maliciousness charles herbig unable locate coffee operator halted masc ucssun sdsu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they kept hours day research has shown that the majority the time that the united states million personal computers are they are not more quote deleted have question why why people copy the article and the only new thing they add the post there name not picking this person seen few these just mistake missing something some unknown net equette missed somewhere skip over all the quoted material since already read and look for the non quoted material and all get the name addition this supposed agree second this what sorry just wondering missed something somewhere along the line copy relevant articles like this and post local bbses not everyone has newsgroup access kelley thomas kelley boylan powerpc ibm austin kelleyb austin ibm com buy and pay for own opinions
comp.sys.mac.hardware	why the drive speeds differ article apr mcontent apana org thomas krebs mcontent apana org writes the most likely explanation may have something with the fact that greater density information exists the larger capacity disk drive than the smaller one your running the drive mac would recommend shareware utility called timedrive which tests seek scsi throughput and rotational speed this utility should let you know what the differences are between the drives the views expressed this posting those the individual author only bbs number maccontent victoriaus first iconic bbs larger drives tend have multipule platters which can allow adjacent bits read parallel resulting higher throughput they also have higher spindle speeds which leads both increased throughput and reduced seek times due reduction rotational latency erik speckman
comp.sys.mac.hardware	deskwriter driver problems article byrne husc harvard edu laurence byrne byrne scws harvard edu writes has anyone had any success experience with the deskwriter drivers the new driver has nice save default option which claims record your paper size font substitution settings etc for future has happened anyone that while printing beep heard and message displayed the sort such and such window was closed because the finder did not have enough memory the only one suffering from this delusion marc bizer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	question there have mac and consider buying been told however that the double speed achievable only machines with scsi the double speed prerequisite for photocd multisession capability which need which means seem gain nothing compared with say any comments thanx michael savitski tel desy deutsches elektronen synchrotron fax notkestr hamburg germany internet sav dsyibm desy decnet vxdesy savitski
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help identifying this card article xpzk imag ibaa oueichek oueichek imag writes have ethernet card that took out off old the card manufactured asante can read asante tech inc copyright maccon rev the card has fpu socket provides thin ethernet connector and there another connector which resembels phone connectors questions are will this card work any other model than serie given that pds card will work with the iisi pds slot think there may probleme because the has bit wide slots probably won work with any other the ones have for the are rev won work the iisi pds slot since pds while the has the pds the iisi and share the same kind card what that other conncetor the card that the baset ethernet connector chad jones these are the days you might fill with network manager laughter until you break these days you ucla physiological science might feel shaft light make its way cjones physci ucla edu across your face and when you you voice know how was meant see the signs fax and know their meaning maniacs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	what that chime article apr nmt edu changw nmt edu willie chang writes happened classic once startup after the usual powerup tone there were chimes kinda like sol the music scale and hanged before giving the happy mac had powerup this was asked before but can remember the answer tried find the answer from the faqs and other ftp sites but avail can anyone tell what those unusual chimes mean spurious memory check error thanks willie those chimes indicate hardware failure some type during system startup one thing that can cause the chimes cable that has become bit loose next time you power down the computer check that all cables are tight
comp.sys.mac.hardware	swii system planning getting stylewriter for mac ram two floppy drives any you out there have any recommendations whether running system better worse than switching don much real work this machine any more but would like keep for word processing using word and don see much advantage going word since slower any help comments would appreciated thanks advance martin lin triumvir cco caltech edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quickdraw was when are the rest the inside mac due article apr msc cornell edu maynard leah msc cornell edu maynard handley writes does take the place bit add right now bit kinda aesthetically pain few places because hacks upon hacks maintain compatibility with original think things like where you have cast cgrafports grafports and such would lot cleaner ditch this entire mess and start over get that maynard sorry for the delay replying your message only showed today apr apple com quickdraw not replacement for quickdraw the two them live quite happily together you may write app that only uses you want you may write hybrid app that uses both suptayoo dave
comp.sys.mac.hardware	deskjet will work boring sister deskjet for the weekend and was wondering their was any drivers for available some where that would allow use with mac have copy macprint but think that have driver for the would happy get working black white but there away get the color working that would better any ideas someone regards robert hardesty hardesty meiko com customer support engineer tele meiko scientific corporation fax trapelo waltham
comp.sys.mac.hardware	upgrading mac plus use superdrive article apr andromeda rutgers edu murray andromeda rutgers edu murray karstadt writes hello out networld have lab old macs ses and pluses don have enough money buy all new machines are considering buying few superdrives for our old macs allow folks with high density disks use our equipment was wondering what experiences good bad people have had with this sort upgrade murray murray andromeda rutgers edu murry why don you just shell out couple more dollars and get floptical they can read high density disks well flopticals the price flopticals right now range from sunny
comp.sys.mac.hardware	question double speed performance from drive does not require scsi interfacing the resultant kbps speed well within the transfer rate other words believe you have been given incorrect information
comp.sys.mac.hardware	question article sav dsyibm desy michael desy sav dsyibm desy michael savitski writes there have mac and consider buying been told however that the double speed achievable only machines with scsi wrong the external just plain scsi device the double speed prerequisite for photocd multisession capability which need multisession capability and double speed are two different thing its just that the newer rom drives have both capability multisession means that when you put more pictures photo after the first session the drive can read and display them double speeds just transfer any type data excluding sound around double the speed which means seem gain nothing compared with say not multisession capable this means that you lose the ability add any more pictures after the first time must buy new finally since the not double speed drive will require twice long transfer data excluding sound michael savitski tel desy deutsches elektronen synchrotron fax notkestr hamburg germany internet sav dsyibm desy decnet vxdesy savitski
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac oriented bbss also interested mac based bbs but not chicago would greatly appreciate someone could post list bbss the area preferably but also thanks dan sure thing here are the firstclass systems those area codes macvalley online burbank the drawing board hacienda heights bps hollywood sangabriel valley mug pasadena and here all california unformated sorry middle earth anaheim byte out the apple benecia planet bmug berkley macvalley online burbank gentle rain forum claremont cyberspace bbs culver city allnet cupertino the boy club cupertino meme net fresno sierra mouse trap grass valley the drawing board hacienda heights the public bbs half moon bay bps hollywood imagine net irvine enet canada guerilla symbiotics verne macrocosm livermore onenet los altos macisland los angeles macshasta shasta foundation newhall sangabriel valley mug pasadena gooey bbs point mugu servant christian bbs redondo beach sbamug redondo beach san diego this not emptv san diego harry bbs san francisco bare bones bbs san jose city connection san jose macdaze santa barbara mac magic santa barbara crumal dimension santa clara casa del cyborg santa cruz beacon comminque simi valley channel simi valley jake and the mac man solona beach iguana bbs sunnyvale vizability walnut creek jason the author opinions are independant those adrenaline online adrenaline online firstclass charlotte adrenaline com fido onenet macunion fidonet usenet conferences megs files dedicated mac users cyberpunks civil libertarians and mecha gamers
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quickdraw was when are the rest the inside mac due article apple com opstad apple com david opstad writes sorry for the delay replying your message only showed today apr apple com quickdraw not replacement for quickdraw the two them live quite happily together you may write app that only uses you want you may write hybrid app that uses both suptayoo this something asked before but don think got answer maybe lost the answer maybe just obvious question will the stuff line docs etc available the develop cds will only out people the developer program and such just curious steve lane
comp.sys.mac.hardware	first tech has anyone dealt with first tech based austin what has your experince been thanks james
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris flaky rep the dealer actually university order center they don have any immediate financial interest told that they have been having lots problems with their centris didn into details but mentioned problems with the floppy drive and intermittent problems with printing files sounded like they were having both hardware problems and software compatibility problems with the machine not recommending the centris anybody says consider centris iivx why would recommend iivx over lciii don know but that what said what does the net think did the dealer just get one flaky machine did apple send the out the door too early your working just great buggy too jay scott scott uiuc edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	question article sav dsyibm desy michael desy sav dsyibm desy michael savitski writes there have mac and consider buying been told however that the double speed achievable only machines with scsi this completely false the double speed prerequisite for photocd multisession capability which need this also false what you need for multisession capability multisession capability which based the firmware and electronics not the drive speed admit though that have not seen multisession capable drive that isn double speed which means seem gain nothing compared with say the above proves false any comments the apple excellent double speed multi session photocd capable drive are drives based the slightly faster toshiba some companies selling such drives are spin peripherals bargain and pli company hate and relax technologies company know little about other than that they are longtime player mac mailorder which usually good sign the nec cdr also good choice nec own mechanism think clubmac sells for around thanx your welcome ooh but now see your from germany most the mailorder info does you little good guess not spin peripherals club mac relax tech nothing wrong with the apple though which based sony mechanism and speed identical the nec the toshiba speed advantage very slight average access time minor plus and data transfer rate slightly more important plus good luck mark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris flaky scott uiuc edu jay scott writes rep the dealer actually university order center they don have any immediate financial interest told that they have been having lots problems with their centris didn into details but mentioned problems with the floppy drive and intermittent problems with printing files sounded like they were having both hardware problems and software compatibility problems with the machine not recommending the centris anybody says consider centris iivx why would recommend iivx over lciii don know but that what said what does the net think did the dealer just get one flaky machine did apple send the out the door too early your working just great buggy too working great haven heard any problems sounds like your dealer doesn know what talking about pretty irresponsible not reccomend the centris the basis problems with one machine recommending the iivx over the lciii doesn make lot sense either this person convinced the buggy have they talked apple about are they just assuming problem with all them terry
comp.sys.mac.hardware	unknown mac board national instruments dma need help identifying this board that found stuffed away corner the title says all that printed national instruments dma fits fine mac iici and snooper gives the very same name for the board looks like has connector the back and another connector the top rows pins also looks like has intel processor intel eeprom there sticker with the anybody ever seen heard one better yet you know what does are all clueless here our last option hook our workstations and see any smoke comes out thanks lot kevin forget kmradke iastate edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	apple new keybd use the new keyboard with iifx and like not touch typist some the advantage loss but there difference and less stress wrists dan dan stratton stratton cwis unomaha edu macs mercedes and money too much not enough views are own
comp.sys.mac.hardware	apple powerdrive ext case like install apple quantum hard drive taken from iisi external powerdrive box from hard drives international that currenty has dead conner mechanism have you done this you know how could you please walk through much detail possible please email directly anyone else interested this email and forward responses you enough people want instructions post summary within week thanks advance bill krauthammer ehg umiami miami edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	question article sav dsyibm desy michael desy sav dsyibm desy michael savitski wrote there have mac and consider buying been told however that the double speed achievable only machines with scsi the double speed prerequisite for photocd multisession capability which need which means seem gain nothing compared with say any comments thanx your source wrong the double speed still slow compared typical hard disk the can easily handle the scsi transfer rate the none the current macs even the quadras support scsi unless you get scsi nubus card you don have have double speed use photocd just faster reading images off disk think that the can handle photocd but only single session the can multisession photocd paul
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris flaky article ydqc uiuc edu scott uiuc edu jay scott writes rep the dealer actually university order center they don have any immediate financial interest told that they have been having lots problems with their centris didn into details but mentioned problems with the floppy drive and intermittent problems with printing files sounded like they were having both hardware problems and software compatibility problems with the machine deleted what does the net think did the dealer just get one flaky machine did apple send the out the door too early your working just great buggy too lot the time when you dealing with someone who has financial interest selling you the machine you get lot opinion opposed factual information etc what sounds like that this guy has had experience with one flaky centris and formed all encompassing opinion the rest the seen lots people who frustrated end because they refused believe any other mac xyz would any good since their experience with one machine with mac xyz had been bad their loss andrew duthie aduthie css itd umich edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	radius videovision article wier csci wiermac etsu edu wier merlin etsu edu bob wier wrote vaguely maybe remember that there was some kind serious problem with this board which does composite pal secam video composite etc coversions plus also generating quicktime movies etc macweek was generally complimentary about the april issue oops got home and checked and found out that isnt the radius video vision which was mentioned having problems none the less still have chance buy one relatively cheap can anyone say how well seems work and there has been newer model introduced accounting for the price reduction thanks and thousands apologies radius insert usual disclaimers here bob wier east texas state commerce texas wier merlin etsu edu watch for address change
comp.sys.mac.hardware	none would like find out about the adb connector the back the macintosh powerbooks after seeing several products that use for powering devices the powerbook also thought something power from the adb connector the keyboard mouse connector does anyone have spex know has voltage and serial some sort some kind soul could tell the way you talk the mac through packet info would appreciated greatly second note what are the pin outs the mac powerbook modem connector have would like know which pins are data etc again thanks charles charles purwin internet purwinc woods ulowell edu actually unix very user friendly system its just that particular about which users chooses friendly with the oracle programmers and programs alike need die gracefully upon failure and exit with system disruption
comp.sys.mac.hardware	datadesk keyboard centris fix terry its again couldn agree with you more finally received datadesk keyboard month after sendng datadesk have checked they didn tell over the phone that you had wait before pressing the shift key disable extensions actually they did but not until day before keyboard arrived but month earlier they were help all really think they need put disclaimer their keyboard manual david
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mhz clock oscillator where quest for speed run into problem mhz and mhz clock oscillators are available but haven found any speeds between and mhz for further testing fox electronics can make custom oscillators but anyone knows source cheaper than osc please let know some and mhz units would complete speed trials the old guy kuo guykuo washington edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they kept hours day article gis calvin nyu edu roy mchip med nyu edu roy smith wrote wouldn worry too much about wasting electricity the winter months that energy just getting turned into heat may not efficient way heat building the central heating plant but there any such thing inefficient heater chris ellens ellens bnr
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerbook duo memory system slow article apr leland stanford edu avery gestalt stanford edu avery wang writes any you hardware gurus out there know what kind memory architecture apple uses the powerbook duos the powerbook general what are the factors that make the duo slow compared desktop machine running the same processor the same speed mhz how many wait states are the memory system etc what kind data bus does use bit bit huh where did you get this idea from think you got this backwards the duo memory faster than its equivalent desktop machine and the rest the powerboks think the explanation for this was that can refresh faster instead cycles believe things that could affect performance would factors such use functions enhanced the fpu which the duo doesn have undocked extensions and background applications can slow your computer down too real life differences speed are likely influence the software you are running what kind screen depth you are running etc espen the duo bit through out
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac oriented bbss article apr adrenaline com hyerstay adrenaline com jason hyerstay wrote also interested mac based bbs but not chicago would greatly appreciate someone could post list bbss the area preferably but also thanks dan sure thing here are the firstclass systems those area codes macvalley online burbank the drawing board hacienda heights bps hollywood sangabriel valley mug pasadena don forget the lamg los angeles macintosh group bbs the bbs for the largest mac only user group the country now that bmug multi platform the number macs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	scsi cable for sale have brand new never used inch mac scsi cable for sale asking for shipping tell this too high don think tttttt eeeee eeeee eeee eeee steve liu vvv drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu eeeee eeeee drlovemd jhuvms hcf jhu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	need device ntsc video scsi bus has anyone heard scsi device that can capture video need some sort device that can capture about frames per second and work off the scsi bus the idea use for some sort video conferencing application told you all that went down would burn off both your ears these thoughts are only own chbeck anl gov
comp.sys.mac.hardware	logitec hand scan mac have the logitech hand scanner for the mac uses scsi interface box that the standard scanner unit plugs into have tried friend ibm hand scanner with the scsi box and works see you can get logitech sell you the scsi box itself warning most the cost mac handscanners contained the scsi interface box could run around when upgraded old style scanner the new gray scale model cost they just gave new scan head and software the box was the same the gray scale scanner interface runs about making around for the interface collin
comp.sys.mac.hardware	floptical kills superdrive recently bought pli mgbyte floptical drive and was very happy with until tried use format diskette put the floppy superdrive check that the floptical had formatted correctly and now superdrive refuses recognize any floppy says this disk unreadable and asks want format even original systems floppies from apple nor will format the disks try initialization failed strangely enough the floptical still reads both the and disks but cant look floppies and have crash screwed because the floptical can used start disk pli has been unresponsive any ideas has this happened anyone before was looking for inexpensive storage solution and now looking expensive repair help respond this thread email mfeldman acs edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they kept hours day article ltdpedinnrsj exodus eng sun com gsager heliacal eng sun com gary sager writes work was pointed out that this should only done with monitors with the power switch front this pet peeve mine wish companies would put power switches the front the equipment apple monitor had the switch the front would happily power off night almost every piece computer equipment own use has the switch the back including external hard drives and modems why hope front mounted switches become the norm and soon just extra wire and work put the switch front usually the easiest place put the switch wherever the power cord enters the machine and people hate power cords the front prefer power strip
comp.sys.mac.hardware	stylewriter dying bought stylewriter couple months ago and lately when print something notice white lines gaps running through the line being printed almost like the paper advancing smidge too far when advancing lines replaced the ink cartridge thinking might the problem but the lines are still there has anyone else noticed this problem what the best way get rid brian davidson internet bsd ultb isc rit edu rochester institute technology bitnet bsd ritvax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	price drop within the price you have the seems very good too would like know where from not giving away secrets thanks alan from planet bmug the firstclass bbs bmug the message contained this posting does not any way reflect bmug official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	the mhz iisi have done several these upgrades about iisi and quadra and the best thing use would some sort heat sink compound possible you should look for the silicon free stuff there comany who makes the stuff called tech spray their address box amarillo you should wary using most kinds tape and definately don use duct tape that stuff for ducts when using the heat sink glue compound only use enough fill the small space between the heat sink and the cpu mario murphy from planet bmug the firstclass bbs bmug the message contained this posting does not any way reflect bmug official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sad mac code believe that that would the same system error since there error then would guess that would error which font manager error error during font declairation would assume that the system that the floppy that you are trying start has corrupted font something like that mario murphy from planet bmug the firstclass bbs bmug the message contained this posting does not any way reflect bmug official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they kept hours day turned monitor and off with the cpu running many times each time wonder what doing cpu directly hooking such high current draw its lines while running does this put substantial spike the power line could one possibly lose data damage equipment
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pin simms for careful before buying have already purchased pin simms for quadra from memory direct march how can tell whether not they are composite simms rule does memory direct ship composite regular simms thank you gary gray engineering mechanics astronautics university wisconsin madison gray cmgroup engr wisc edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	unknown mac board national instruments dma article ygdq news iastate edu kmradke iastate edu kevin radke wrote need help identifying this board that found stuffed away corner the title says all that printed national instruments dma fits fine mac iici and snooper gives the very same name for the board looks like has connector the back and another connector the top rows pins also looks like has intel processor intel eeprom there sticker with the anybody ever seen heard one better yet you know what does are all clueless here our last option hook our workstations and see any smoke comes out made surprise national instruments bridge point parkway austin anonymouse ftp ftp natinst com their catalog lists the follows fetch and deposit dma controller channels ieee interface with data rates sec with dma and programmed transfers bit counter timer channels rtsi bus that the connector the top the board links with other national instrument boards list price the board isn later catalogs has been superceeded the dma
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris flaky tthiel uiuc edu terry thiel writes scott uiuc edu jay scott writes rep the dealer actually university order center they don have any immediate financial interest told that they have been having lots problems with their centris didn into details but mentioned problems with the floppy drive and intermittent problems with printing files sounded like they were having both hardware problems and software compatibility problems with the machine not recommending the centris anybody says consider centris iivx why would recommend iivx over lciii don know but that what said what does the net think did the dealer just get one flaky machine did apple send the out the door too early your working just great buggy too centris working perfectly there one problem that have noticed fastback backup utility does not work the strange thing that works with friend most the time however never works with machine assume some sort software problem and not hardware related saiid paryavi paryavi matt ksu ksu edu saiid cis ksu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	unknown mac board national instruments dma kmradke iastate edu kevin radke writes need help identifying this board that found stuffed away corner the title says all that printed national instruments dma fits fine mac iici and snooper gives the very same name for the board looks like has connector the back and another connector the top rows pins also looks like has intel processor intel eeprom there sticker with the anybody ever seen heard one better yet you know what does are all clueless here our last option hook our workstations and see any smoke comes out thanks lot kevin data aquisition board for the mac series called the dma board with gpib interface you may call ieee find out more about hope this helps saiid paryavi saiid paryavi paryavi matt ksu ksu edu saiid cis ksu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	defense performas was performa from article apr desire wright edu demon desire wright edu not boomer article apr tolten puc rcvillab isluga puc rodrigo carlos villablanca writes have question which the diference between performa and lciii want know which better you know the specifications and the prices this computers can you tell email rcvillab isluga puc like know the diference between the apple monitor and the performa monitor too performa classic performa performa iii performa well nothing the performas are made low cost business solutions the have bundled software modems etc because they have retail price you might able get steeper discount them shop around far the monitors buy party much cheaper brett there nothing passionate vested interest disguised intellectual conviction sean casey the white plague frank herbert hmmm that not quite right the performa real darn close the iivx but better buy imo also don think they are much low cost business solution but low cost home solution why else bundle ease among other things hardly business application what you mean retail price quite the contrary think the price darn near the same all across the country that again imo was one the selling points the performas haggling required kinda like the saturn car the computer set one price medium performance ready when shopped for performa the difference between sears sigh montgomery wards silo sigh circuit city sigh and bizmart sigh couldn have been why chose one over the other was based solely availability and friendly salesman who went the extra mile when did you last hear that about someone who sells apples admittedly except for montgomery wards and suspect was just lucky all the salesfolk spoke didn know didly about the computers peecee mac but then neither did any the apple dealers spoke with you would told year ago that would buy macintosh from montgomery wards woulda laughed for long long time figure real happy with performa and bought the apple performa plus monitor buying party happy with that decision well walked plopped down some cash and walked out with spankin new computer the day before christmas instrument approach procedures automation dot faa ami bryan oakley ctrbdo iapa mailhost ecn uoknor edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they kept hours day article apr alleg edu comp sys mac hardware smytonj murr alleg edu jim smyton writes article igh function mps ohio state edu nevai mps ohio state edu paul nevai writes yes know computers and harddisk drives should always but what about monitors they generate lots heat should shouldn keep them hours day any advice thanks take care paul paul nevai nevai mps ohio state edu dept math ohio state university office columbus ohio math dept fax actually thought macs were suppoused restarted once day nope keep mac running all the time since also acts usenet node and exchanges mail and news every half hour run uaccess and receives all faxes turn off the monitors hooked they produce more heat than want can warm garage office the summer got one those handy power control centers fry just flip the switch front when start stop working the way this strategy seems somewhat endorsed apple since their new color classic will turn off its own monitor after certain length idle time michael peirce peirce outpost bay org peirce software suite hibiscus place san jose california usa makers voice fax smoothie applelink peirce america online afc peirce
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris flaky oqcinnh stimpy css itd umich edu aduthie mudskipper css itd umich edu andrew duthie writes article ydqc uiuc edu scott uiuc edu jay scott writes your working just great buggy too lot the time when you dealing with someone who has financial interest selling you the machine you get lot opinion opposed factual information etc what sounds like that this guy has had experience with one flaky centris and formed all encompassing opinion the rest the seen lots yes that what sounds like too but before spend bucks want make sure right have mail from self confessed apple hater listing few common problems with the but nothing can get fixed under warranty anybody else great lousy jay scott scott uiuc edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris flaky article ydqc uiuc edu scott uiuc edu jay scott writes rep the dealer actually university order center they don have any immediate financial interest told that they have been having lots problems with their centris didn into details but mentioned problems with the floppy drive and intermittent problems with printing files sounded like they were having both hardware problems and software compatibility problems with the machine not recommending the centris anybody says consider centris iivx why would recommend iivx over lciii don know but that what said what does the net think did the dealer just get one flaky machine did apple send the out the door too early your working just great buggy too jay scott scott uiuc edu mine works great far hasit mehta university rochester primus sucks uhura rochester edu believe captain crunch for the frizzle fry
comp.sys.mac.hardware	svga and powerbook here question want hook powerbook svga monitor but not want buy the powerbook dos companion can anyone tell the exact cable need connect them there such cable can purchase from macwharehouse some computer store must buy the cable from james engineering how much they run and how can get hold them guess that was more than question thanks advance for any replys john schrieber mail schriejh cnsvax uwec edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	desi upgrade couldn replacement become expensive david from planet bmug the firstclass bbs bmug the message contained this posting does not any way reflect bmug official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	psi modem problem the first problem was the sound tried the but then even the logon was muted don want that any other suggestions for that hissing the second really strange first kept mentioning that slowed down all the time and took too long well just logged with extensions off and didn have any slowdown also last time was online quit which usually disconnects and quits disconnected but wouldn quit had force quit and then when launched again said the modem port was use this really strange thought might have with fax software the restart could have reset the modem port more likely explanation any suggestions david from planet bmug the firstclass bbs bmug the message contained this posting does not any way reflect bmug official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help gcc plp laser printer the tech support line for gcc from planet bmug the firstclass bbs bmug the message contained this posting does not any way reflect bmug official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	torx screwdriver article austin ibm com login austin ibm com writes while ago when owned plus and wanted upgrade its memory just ordered the toolkit from macwarehouse for something like included anti static had success just jamming standard screwdriver the slots banging with hammer and twisting away then throw the darn things away and put real screws there methinks they did this just sell the damn screwdrivers
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors but when not using using article usenet ucs indiana edu cliu silver ucs indiana edu chang hsu liu writes the environmental protection agency has formed alliance with computer manufacturers promote the introduction energy efficient pcs that power down automatically when not being used this bad idea machine hours day but actually doing things hours day use all purpose alarm clock scheduler got routines that run the middle the night phone calls makes during the day when out your machine hours day then you can count working hours day could call from work and download file that might need could call from work and have turn the lights going late oops more wasted electricity but conversely could have turn the lights off heck suppose could even connect the microwave and have dinner ready when get there well nevermind just babbling
comp.sys.mac.hardware	which powerbook buy own iisi and considering buying powerbook can anyone give listing all the models and tell what looking for passive matrix active memory sizes upgradeability internal modems disk size you could provide some prices too that would help not informed enough powerbooks know how well they operate have been following the posts some the problems that have been encountered such the trackball not working the horizontal would appreciate the list well any advice you may have thanks advance kordi wichita state university
comp.sys.mac.hardware	can mac superdrives read unix disks does anyone know program utility that will enable the mac read unix next disks thanks warren warren laplace biology yale edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	the mhz iisi the mhz iisi used the radio shack heat sink compound solution with clamps works fine the caution holds though don tilt your mac
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris flaky been playing with centris for the last couple weeks the only problem that have seen that couple the applications run are incompatible with the processor cache have run with turned off actually the main thing don like that doesn have software powerup powerdown and the power switch directly under the floppy drive haven hit thinking would eject the disk but some tired night going really upset with that design decision all problems with floppy and printing have been just fine printing done across localtalk net not directly connected printer bill
comp.sys.mac.hardware	info wanted upgrading power supply hello netter want uprade the power supply which bit color card installed know crc components inc deals the compatible power supply manifactured power plus systems does anyone know their phone fax number them please reply mail thanks kensuke nakajima
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris flaky article ydqc uiuc edu scott uiuc edu jay scott writes what does the net think did the dealer just get one flaky machine did apple send the out the door too early your working just great buggy too working like charm fact are flaky would consider great computer even had return couple apple get good one samuel christian zehr zeh midway uchicago edu bio computing labs whitman chicago
comp.sys.mac.hardware	building simple appletalk repeater have small network running dorm school and kind worried about the length the wires and the way that have run was wondering anyone might have some schematic least some ideas how make some sort simple appletalk repeater not interested making actual zones and zone names just way isolate different branches the network does anyone have any ideas what could done thanks alot dave sugar udsugar mcs drexel edu rjr dunx ocs drexel edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	tones death just test installed kanjitalk iici and got black screen way sick looking mac icon and when hitting the programmers reset tone sequence that guess the infamous tones death was able reboot off floppy removed the japanese system and set the system folder the hard drive get system back now have overt problems with the mac any idea what caused the tones forget the numbers but fff comes mind some self diagnostic why would older system version catch and not moving and worldscript and thanks advance hiroki hiroki morizono department biochemistry university minnesota fax gortner avenue hiroki limerick cbs umn edu paul
comp.sys.mac.hardware	stylewriter dying article apr ultb isc rit edu bsd ultb isc rit edu davidson writes bought stylewriter couple months ago and lately when print something notice white lines gaps running through the line being printed almost like the paper advancing smidge too far when advancing lines replaced the ink cartridge thinking might the problem but the lines are still there has anyone else noticed this problem what the best way get rid brian davidson internet bsd ultb isc rit edu had similar problem with stylewriter the original have you tried cleaning the print heads with the swii driver and option the print dialog box sometimes had several times get the crud out yes wastes ink but beats those white annoying lines another idea print couple pages with just big black box can help get the ink flowing good luck beth corbo corbo lclark edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	what that chime article dcm nac fnnews fnal gov fnclub fnal gov david sachs writes those chimes indicate hardware failure some type during system startup one thing that can cause the chimes cable that has become bit loose next time you power down the computer check that all cables are tight remember simple program that would play those chimes for you when you clicked their respective buttons does anyone know where that this was circa think cheers eric huppertz ejhupper ilstu edu hey these aren rules come think don have any rules beetlejuice
comp.sys.mac.hardware	macintosh lab help interesting delema for all those out there school discussing installing mac lab stations for our bio classes study with pig disections joke here the deal can get this grant study more feasible disection via the computer via the real thing problem was somehow drawn into this project being done students who want mac but know nada about them being the man mac man campus guess who they came wnt know what would probably the best hardware fill the follwoing list right now are looking the and the platforms here goes are using rom ought with the internal apple roms offered options the and external matter price and reliability the second being very important how much ram was thinking more leaning towards what you think called apple educational discounts and they said their keyboard extended better with the apple and their long time great wear and tear record there party extended keyboard that just reliable price printers one color printer are presently leaning towrds the thermal wax tektronic probably the are going limit access don needed the networkability what you think terms color printers different brand kind dye sublimation ink jet price companies also are looking get laser printer such network into the whole lab for noraml printing the fornt runner the apple pro that right don have notes here suggestions have kids using these things all day this lab goes through and they know nothing about for the most part has reliable easy maintain and economical not high priced paper cartidges etc finally and this little dig into the project what about netting these things have ether nearby and would like slap the macs the net but server individual ether forget about going astronomically priced and the school going laugh you when you ask them little more info poli sci major who just happens know alot about macs but this bit out league not mention don have the time and look for all this stuff hoping the collective resources and intelect the net can help has before shameless plug buy empower great security program disclaimer this post not and will never supported university they not condone any way using this media illict info this proj bio majors they the real persons anyinfo please send the email above make real clear rmwbb wittenberg edu and damn hope editor alive when get done typing there not another stupid blank post reserve the right claim all this info mine and use get everything want form universities red taped administration this info may used for blackmail purposes and for obtaining undo amounts praise and god like status this info may also used get credits probaly really don deserve that the ned any questions and thanks ahead time once again taping the collective genius the internet scott sauer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	flaky large memory simms the last two weeks have the following problem two has simm and the other simm both are about months old bought from different vendors and installed different people both computers begin crashing frequently locking and ultimately the memory chimes crashes would almost always occur you moved the screen and sometimes would occur when you weren even touching the computer both cases taking the machine apart taking the memory out and putting back solved the problem for awhile but then would comeback marginally educated guess what happening that larger simms are lopsided that the insertion point sort pivot point and after time they begin move about possible because pressure the keyboard something anyway has anyone else had such problem solution somehow you could support the other end the simm prevent from moving had problem for the past weeks replacing simm with mbsimm although this not desireble solution please email any resp and post usefull the rest the world ted ted schreiber mechanical enginering northwestern university tel fax email rts nwu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	recs mac video system cards software what would good platform for some fairly basic video work the following nature reading real video for playbak various app minnutes length basic editing features for said video rearange sequences adding grapic slides from something like power point etc not familiar with this stuff but would like good system with crisp performance for educational promotional things the video quality should decent thinking tempest cyclone big drive loads ram floptical optical however not sure the various cards and software thats out there please email any responses thanks ted schreiber mechanical enginering northwestern university tel fax email rts nwu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii used iici which should get long last going replace beloved looking new iii and used iici prices have yet worked out just thinking right now about their merits and drawbacks here what thought the iici has much greater potential for expansion nubus and greater memory capacity the iii would new under warranty newer roms the iici bit clean and would have sound input also like the pizza box case performance wise have read that they are almost identical the iii being little slower which should get erik erik cheshire oxy edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii used iici which should get erik cheshire oxy edu erik adams writes long last going replace beloved looking new iii and used iici prices have yet worked out just thinking right now about their merits and drawbacks here what thought the iici has much greater potential for expansion nubus and greater memory capacity the iii would new under warranty newer roms the iici bit clean and would have sound input also like the pizza box case performance wise have read that they are almost identical the iii being little slower which should get erik erik cheshire oxy edu yes the iici has bit clean roms either model would good choice another option get new iici from dealer that hasn sold out yet also don forget the performa which believe the same iii but may packaged with more goodies for better price
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii used iici which should get article apr cheshire oxy edu erik cheshire oxy edu erik adams writes looking new iii and used iici prices the iici has much greater potential for expansion nubus and greater memory capacity how important this how many nubus cards you have plan acquire how much memory you really need got and ram that plenty also have bit graphics card the nubus sucker for pretty pictures think the lciii can have bootable ramdisk memory which can not have least not out the box the iii would new under warranty newer roms the iici bit clean and would have sound input also like the pizza box case the bit clean solved the sound input problem with macrecorder but that gotten fairly expensive solution now that macromind owns macrecorder performance wise have read that they are almost identical the iii being little slower the actual difference probably not worth worrying over which should get depends the price you can get the for educationally speaking the lciii here fsu can had just under add roughly for monitor last heard lciii simm went for think you win win situation matter what you decide you most likely happy with james
comp.sys.mac.hardware	chosser gives blank screen running system centris have not been able setup printer yet because when open chooser get blank screen have all kinds print drivers but none shows even not get port iconn either just one big blank screen your help very appreciated btw did rebuild the desktop but that did not help either bizhan bizhan netcom com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	newlife and hard drives giday netters just got used newlife accelerator with fpu and was wondering about few points anyone know the current driver version for can handle the bit grayscale card get the video option why would hating hard drive can use the accelerator and hard drive the same time need new driver drive what make thanks jason blakey dal big purple your best friend
comp.sys.mac.hardware	oops probably should been more specific the newlife here system desc megs the main board the accelerator board mac plus with the most recent roms trying run system but would like run the hard drive jasmine works fine start with the accelerator disabled also seem get the problem when try start from floppy with the hard drive disconnected all get the disk loading but the screen black except for happy mac the middle and never gets anywhere jason blakey dal big purple your best friend
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii used iici which should get according what saw store today the performa not the same lciii only has mhz while the lciii has mhz correct wrong because possible that the dealer may have forgotten remove the description that was next the actual computer dealers who sell the performa are known have about much knowledge about macs about dos machines saurabh
comp.sys.mac.hardware	need button mouse help can anyone recommend button mouse that compatible with macx and quadra can the buttons programed say cut paste etc can anyone suggest supplier the only button mice know exist are logitek aust injan anorus aust mac direct are these for the above configuration please reply directly regards christopher welsh deakin university chris welsh department computing and maths cris aragorn deakin everybody has enormous potential only you could see what can see
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac iifx for sale for sale mac iifx with the following config ram hard drive floppy drives extended keyboard mouse apple bit video card best offer all you need monitor complete this system thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	svga monitors and centris the real story article ofpiuyk andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu alexander samuel mcdiarmid writes having been discusse essentially adnausium the answer yes least for the configuration you can get adaptor called mac vga from james engineering and this will let you display and the monitor capable think the requires khz horizontal sync use this sony gives slightly wider screen than the adaptor using nec with centris the cable adapter was provided nec you have call get this free adapter also sharing with using switch box and extra cables questions how you tell that was displayed how you change the mode resolution there for this something have with the assuming getting since have vram and the can display with nicholas pang nyp amdahl com amdahl corporation nyp outs ccc amdahl com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	can the iisi yourself acceleration done iici was wondering what many you did accelerate your iisi from mhz mhz and beyond can done iici from mhz mhz stephen tseng cornell edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	where can buy new lcii want buy lcii yes lcii not lciii none the dealer seems have them anymore does anybody know where can buy this beast wanted with standard keyboard package please let know thanx aravind melligeri system administrator asm mevax psu edu dept mechanical engg off pennsylvania state univ res
comp.sys.mac.hardware	audio scsi commands does anyone out there know how would get started writing device driver for the apple rom drive which can read audio formats out through the scsi bus thanks avery
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how they compare the the same clock not fast the the same clock speed the also has much better floating point unit now the faster than the mhz but for your reference the mhz gets mips while the mhz gets mips
comp.sys.mac.hardware	modems simple question going purchase modem with fax capability currently considering suprav bis global village teleport gold the global village averages about more there advantage concerning fax need present when there are incoming fax will the modem software recognize incoming fax and store the information once received can use mac applications the image telephone line seems pretty stable and have the supra well works great but with every passing day fall behind how many great are out zoom out the question from what hearing has great product from what hear and the sportster really cheap now too you want receive fax your computer will have but not the monitor and course the modem you can set the number rings that will receive the fax specific ring you set with fax stf software entirely you how arrange that had faxes sent which great but been home set don have need set fax receiving all day also hear there device that can channel all incoming phone signals for about rumor also that the phone company can hook you with the same gizmo for about that what you need best luck and write back you like more feedback freddie clinton the tax man cometh cometh cometh keeps coming roman brice internet roman brice fidonet org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	can mac superdrives read unix disks article apr news yale edu warren delano warren laplace biology yale edu writes does anyone know program utility that will enable the mac read unix next disks thanks warren warren laplace biology yale edu don know the answer your direct question but the mac superdrive can read dos disks can then you can transfer files between the next and mac using dos formatted disks since the next can read write that format and you interested transferring files you can also over the serial port using kermit cheers avery
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerbook duo memory system slow article dartvax dartmouth edu espen koht dartmouth edu espen koht writes article apr leland stanford edu avery gestalt stanford edu avery wang writes any you hardware gurus out there know what kind memory architecture apple uses the powerbook duos the powerbook general what are the factors that make the duo slow compared desktop machine running the same processor the same speed mhz how many wait states are the memory system etc what kind data bus does use bit bit huh where did you get this idea from think you got this backwards the duo memory faster than its equivalent desktop machine and the rest the powerboks think the explanation for this was that can refresh faster instead cycles believe things that could affect performance would factors such use functions enhanced the fpu which the duo doesn have undocked extensions and background applications can slow your computer down too real life differences speed are likely influence the software you are running what kind screen depth you are running etc espen the duo bit through out thanks for the enlightening post there technical note this the desktop machine was referring was actually not mac but rather any various workstations that use the mhz such old suns old nexts used own next cube but will try rebooting without extensions see what kind speed difference get with powerbook duo did notice extreme slowdown unusability with mac plus after installing system why does the suck much cpu power also you right software does make huge difference have the misfortune using works duo when editing relatively small files cut copy takes several seconds often more than seconds this happens with power cycling turned off usual software maggot infested feces getting nisus replace for text editing avery
comp.sys.mac.hardware	deskwriter driver problems article emx uucp marc bizer mlbizer bongo utexas edu writes has happened anyone that while printing beep heard and message displayed the sort such and such window was closed because the finder did not have enough memory the only one suffering from this delusion marc bizer this can solved going into your system folder and get info command the finder and give more memory
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they kept hours day article cassidy elan rowan edu kyle cassidy cassidy elan rowan edu writes this bad idea machine hours day but actually doing things hours day use all purpose alarm clock scheduler got routines that run the middle the night phone calls makes during the day when out your machine hours day then you can count working hours day could call from work and download file that might need could call from work and have turn the lights going late oops more wasted electricity but conversely could have turn the lights off heck suppose could even connect the microwave and have dinner ready when get there well nevermind just babbling all those things that you mention can still accomplished when the machine power down when the previous poster said power down doesn mean turning off the machine just means that the machine energy conserving mode that sucks least electricity
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris flaky article ydqc uiuc edu scott uiuc edu jay scott writes story about dealing having problems deleted what does the net think did the dealer just get one flaky machine did apple send the out the door too early your working just great buggy too had for about six weeks now with problems whatsoever been customized with replaced the apple quantum drive with connor drive installed tandberg scsi tape drive the internal bay which works just fine though apple doesn seem supplying front panel bezels standard cutout hooked apple laserwriter plus and has printing problems all tested printing complex photoshop graphics has expanded vram and extra meg simm problems sum have idea what this dealer complaining about fred fred martin fredm media mit edu ames epistemology and learning group mit media lab cambridge usa
comp.sys.mac.hardware	adapter for iisi and vga monitor article apr midway uchicago edu choi gsbsrc uchicago edu dongseok choi writes understand that have correct adapter then can use vga monitor with iisi are those adapters working with specific brands adapter for nec sony working with other brands will using vga monitor with iisi for month soon don have any clue what monitor will here the story the iisi cannot supply vga output however some vga type monitors can adequately deal with the video signal the mac uses drive the apple inch high resolution color display apple own mode you wish hook one these monitors your iisi you need adapter that converts from the mac connector the vga style high density connector but tells the mac use own mode not the vga mode and vga monitor that can deal with the higher bandwidth the mac mode over the vga mode which stated above the iisi cannot produce far above concerned contact james engineering inc fairmount ave cerrito fax they can probably get you the right adapter remember you not want the run the mill mac vga adapter because will try have your iisi produce the vga mode which cannot the computer will just fail produce any video signal all instead you want adapter that connects between the mac style and vga style connectors but tells the mac use the apple mode sorry for the poor terminology available for describing this distinction far concerned make sure get monitor that can deal with horizontal bandwidth khz and vertical retrace rate these are the spec apple mode for comparison the vga standard mode uses khz horizontal bandwidth and vertical retrace rate the monitor will probably need have auto synch ing capability the apple mode you using isn one the set standard modes the compatible world good luck fred martin fred martin fredm media mit edu ames epistemology and learning group mit media lab cambridge usa
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii used iici which should get article jst mailer fsu edu stricher masig ocean fsu edu char aznabul writes article apr cheshire oxy edu erik cheshire oxy edu erik adams writes looking new iii and used iici prices the iici has much greater potential for expansion nubus and greater memory capacity depends the price you can get the for educationally speaking the lciii here fsu can had just under add roughly for monitor last heard lciii simm went for think you win win situation matter what you decide you most likely happy with james yes and one thing think about the pricing the harddrive configuration when got lowly classic the options were harddrives and was clear that buying another harddrive space would cost much more than the difference price between the two config uartions there analogous break the lciii and prices and you will not regret spending the extra money for larger harddrive particularly you ever wind wanting use softpc which sets several partition you are generating large files with dtp software you might ever want check out mac unix like like machten having the extra space will helpful when you are pricing used iici look the harddrive size they come with and how much would cost you add more storage down the road might useful bargaining strategy even you see reason over though must admit that such packrat that within months getting computer was backing lot stuff floppies that rarely use because was running out space without having started using dtp stuff softpc trying any unix peter bell minerva cis yale edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sound recording for mac portable previous article freenet carleton david hughes says does anyone know what hardware required and where could find for sound recording the mac portable thanks all you have buy macromedia macrecorder this plugs into your seril port and acts microphone north star computers should able order you one liam morland freenet carleton
comp.sys.mac.hardware	syquest article hydra gatech edu prism gatech edu anthony kim wrote remember someone mention about meg syquest has anyone else heard anything about this interested the cost per megabyte and the approximate cost the drive itself and how they compare the bernoulli bernoulli also offer floppy drives that read floppies their multidisk reads all formats and writes bernoulli are installed industrial computers much more rugged than syquest you get what you pay for guess haven heard about syquest thanks truemner mac truemner hydro ontario hydro automated ndt welding fax toronto canada
comp.sys.mac.hardware	two internal disks like put internal disks mac understand that ones needs special jumper cable acheive this does anyone know source for these thanks mike pazzani pazzani ics uci edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help identifying this card chad jones cjones physci ucla edu wrote article xpzk imag ibaa oueichek oueichek imag writes have ethernet card that took out off old the card manufactured asante can read asante tech inc copyright maccon rev the card has fpu socket provides thin ethernet connector and there another connector which resembels phone connectors questions are will this card work any other model than serie given that pds card will work with the iisi pds slot think there may probleme because the has bit wide slots probably won work with any other the ones have for the are rev won work the iisi pds slot since pds while the has the pds the iisi and share the same kind card see does asante propose any upgrade for their cards they have email adress can ask them directly their phone number will even pay the overseas call really willing know what with this card sham tha seif lam yaghib ibaa oueichek oueichek imag imag jamal majd kutub lab genie informatique lgi kablak tareekh thulmaten imag inpg baadak staula ala shuhub felix viallet grenoble
comp.sys.mac.hardware	good aps experience thought share good experience too bought the aps quantum zero footprint drive may back when they still used two separate leds the front panel and the case was metal while traveling with was mac bag top the mac this past winter one the plastic tabs holding the front panel broke that the right side the front panel was coming forward away from the rest the drive lived with this situation until became completely intolerable which more less coincided with network shutdown school and trip out town had take which gave some dead time during which have the drive sent out called aps for rma and got one with questions asked about how the tab got broken was handled little roughly airline baggage handlers though nothing else was damaged well except for the internal speaker modem which wasn that well glued down begin with yeah yeah never flying with again and when called back ask whether could send little later rather than right away they had problem with that even when exceeded the normal valid period for rma day they usually good for days the front panel was replaced under warranty and the drive was shipped back quickly mailed first class insured saturday noon from missouri and came back fed friday don know exactly what day came back because was traveling that week from wednesday afternoon sunday afternoon the only thing that could been bad was that the first service rep talked attempt prevent jeopardizing data suggested that take the drive mechanism out and send just the case unfortunately discovered the day was mailing the thing that would necessitate breaking the little seal and thus voiding the warranty well albert seas ucla edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help how test simms well you can always try and find dealer who sells guaranteed memory work company growing year have order hundreds computers per year never fails machines come with bad simms now for those you who are wondering just why your mac just crashed can tell you always thought was the incompetent ass who wrote designed the software well don think that way anymore especially with the results have gotten with replacing bad simms own machine and others work the moral this story make sure your memory good would willing bet lots you out there have simms with either soft hard errors them and you don even know about but every once awhile those bad simms just makes your life hell just got plain sick dealing with peoples complaints that thier machine just crashed and they lost thier work case your wondering you haven already guessed work department service die perogative this line work the moral have your memory tested with simm hardware tester and don mean the simple little software programs that you can run your machine simms are complicated little beasts and they needs special hardware test them effectively any you are interested getting one these nifty little devices which are not cheap write back they make life little bit easier and besides they pay for themselves short time from the loss productivity people would have deal with when thier machine commits suicide greg carter
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help scsi woes mac iifx article apr news unomaha edu salmon cwis unomaha edu david salmon writes according the official documentation failure use the iifx terminator can not only affect scsi bus performance but can also damage the bus whether this your problem not don know have had sporadic scsi problems with iifx since bought cannot connect more than three devices fourth one causes major problems first thing try reformat your drive someone elses system you continue get errors probably the drive formats fine then would try format your system with externals this fails then the scsi controller your iifx needs repair replacement hope this helps david salmon salmon unomaha edu have you tried having your scsi bus balanced greg
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pds nubus was iii nubus capable article qpc bigboote wpi edu bchase bigwpi wpi edu bret chase writes article mqk liverpool wis liverpool sellers writes bill higgins beam jockey higgins fnalf fnal gov wrote article kzls kkb dartvax dartmouth edu hades coos dartmouth edu brian hughes writes mmiller garnet msen com marvin miller writes friend recently purchased iii and wants know there such demon called nubus adapter for his pds slot the family macs can only use pds cards they are not able use nubus but why can some technically hip macslinger tell what the difference between pds and nubus impossible make gadget that plugs into pds and ends nubus card cage least marvin friend has not been able locate one and neither have what the fundamental reason for this think that there exist nubus expansion cages sure seen them advertised occassionally but think that the main problem that they cost much more than the difference price between say and iivx unless you need lots nubus slots its not worth the bother course may that these extra boxes are expensive because one buys them because they are expensive nubus technology isn special apple proprietry thing have this sneaky feeling that licensed from texas instruments there problem building expansion box apple uses the ieee nubus standard for their bit backplane bus got this from technote that reada couple weeks ago well almost nubus anyway comprehensive bus contention between processors not supported the current macintoshes could wrong however know for fact from seeing the cyclone data spec sheets myself don ask macintosh cyclone models will provide full implementation the nubus standard very interesting possibilities indeed other stuff deleted hope this helps bret chase internet bchase wpi wpi edu macintosh bellnet smile won kill you snailnet wpi box institute worcester greg
comp.sys.mac.hardware	computer engr computer science article qqla inn srvr engin umich edu chyang engin umich edu chung hsiung yang writes article tecot xenon stanford edu tecot xenon stanford edu edward tecot writes professor mine once said the difference between computer engineer and computer scientist about meaning the engineer makes more than the not just joke scott for the most part this bunch bunk got computer engineering degree yet spent the last years writing software that people actually use moreover the salary distinctions are incorrect received job offers upon graduation the two jobs that actually used hardware experience were year lower advice decide which classes and projects most interest you and pick the major that allows you take them emt well here worth advice from grad student agree with the gentlemen who wrote the comment before the important thing pick what ever interest you the most and learn much possible about five years education this field though brief compare alot people had think about this kind question lot did make the right decision going into electrical engineering opposed computer engineering the more thru school the more believe that this kind question irrelevant interesting think computer technology now becomming widespread enough now that longer position which must require degree know several people work with that make just much and they don even have degree comp sci yet they make year they also didn have pay grand thier local university either think computer programming being reduced trade practice than truly specialty field will even more the future your interested cutting edge type stuff and you choose did suggest checking out the emerging field software engineering the difficulties for example designing scaleable design environments for individuals that single person can handle million lines code all himself reasonable manner and then incorporate that into teamwork enviroment truly gigantic problem not going solved any time soon unfortunately but hey you could the person that provides the missing key for some good groundwork have come believe that choosing because one does not like hardware choosing hardware because one does not like program really doing injustice building and computer and making useful for something everything interwoven and inseparable and are all part really great discipline and depend each other advice don limit yourself but make decision based which major will give you the best opportunities learn that course depends the curriculum your persective school would choose major that allows explore much possible beside don know why the school would make student choose major before her his sophamore year hey you may interested this field that you decided learn all about the making computers which case you suffer little more and grad school about the money don look the averages you are good you are going earn more money than anyone else you are superstar programmer you will earn millions like wise you are hotshot computer designers well your like the poor slobs the world like you are financial position continue graduate work right out top comp sci school the trick find some generous inc you work for pay for the rest your education trust its the best way even you don get top salary which have always been poor slob throughout school but you follow this rule book salary food shelter you should always have computer and you won hungry what else could man want chung yang greg carter
comp.sys.mac.hardware	softpc question could someone give some info soft how does work what kind performance can expect can you run windows under adequately any info appreciated
comp.sys.mac.hardware	memory for sale two meg sim that came from for sale asking postage included you are interested please mail via internet you not have internet availability you may contact reply donald lyles internet dcl his com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	accelerated mac plus problems hello recently accelerated mac plus micromac mhz accelerator and now can get mac boot off the hard disk boots fine from floppy and can mount the hard disk using scsi probe but cannot get boot from the hard drive installed new driver don think that the problem this poses rather large problem only have meg ram and need run mathematica which requires meg was hoping use system virtual memory that could run mathematica however can run system from floppy can get enough ram any suggestions thanks for your time chrisw yang earlham edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	can mac superdrives read unix disks there are several programs sumex that allow macs with superdrives read and write unix tar diskettes ronald nicholson rhn netcom com rhn sigm com ywu include cannonical disclaimer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	what that chime ejhupper cmp ilstu edu eric huppertz writes fnclub fnal gov david sachs writes those chimes indicate hardware failure some type during system startup one thing that can cause the chimes cable that has become bit loose next time you power down the computer check that all cables are tight remember simple program that would play those chimes for you when you clicked their respective buttons does anyone know where that this was circa think quick search the index mac archive umich edu shows the following available anonymous ftp from that site mac util developer diagnosticsoundsampler hqx binhex that chord you hear when you push the start your mac means more than just passed internal test this utility explains what the various sounds stand for various stages ram testing jonathan brecher brecher mac archive umich edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	macintosh weenies suck scsi disks unknown class user writes snip think the subject title says all anybody that relies scsi dick for stoarage pain the ass anything you store there will eventually cause some discomfort over time
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerpc and old macs what happens then have few questions that would like answers opinions since thinking about buying iii when the powerpc based macs are announced what will happen the based macs system the last word for based macs will ever get real multi tasking for the mac will there way for nubus pds equipped macs add powerpc board their systems hate think that going put down machine that months now part dead end product line thanks advance mike norman bell northern research box station ottawa ontario canada internet mwnorman bnr tel fax hasta vista baby schwarzenegger
comp.sys.mac.hardware	file sharing magneto opticals jann vanover vanover bcsaic boeing com wrote worker has just attached magneto optical drive his mac works great for him however tried turn file sharing but wouldn work had some message about not all volumes are shareable has anyone had success sharing mos please tell how needs insert the before filesharing get turned and the only one that can see the disk the owner the machine not sure but seems that the check allow owner see entire disk should enabled too bad thing you can eject the disk until turned off hope that helps pablo millan mis opiniones son mias pero las puedo vender email pablo ing puc seeds limitada santiago chile research what doing when don know what doing von braun
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii used iici which should get article apr cheshire oxy edu erik cheshire oxy edu erik adams writes long last going replace beloved looking new iii and used iici prices have yet worked out just thinking right now about their merits and drawbacks get the iici more expandable just fast and preserves the option run system david gutierrez drg biomath mda uth tmc edu only fools are positive moe howard
comp.sys.mac.hardware	hosed hey all have old external attached the plus our lab had given flawless service until last week the problem someone our lab has old that was upgraded couple years ago plus with aftermarket simm scsi setup digigraphics simmer the scsi plug runs through the back the machine and attaches the board with pin rectangular connector well this guy had removed the back from the machine put more memory and had disconnected the the scsi plug since the pin connector symmetrical not keyed may have reinstalled upside down essentially reversing the pins the came and asked could try out our his scsi port had never been used naive fools that are said his computer failed recognize the drive now none the computers our lab will recognize tried disk doctor and doesn recognize anything the scsi chain could installing the scsi upside down have wrecked the driver board the drive seems spin all right and unpark itself upon powerup the events are too coincidental attribute the problem stiction any help greatly appreciated james jak fff chem utah edu next mail
comp.sys.mac.hardware	apple rgb monitor apple color monitor have old apple rgb monitor for iigs which looks whole lot like the monitor have the sneaking suspicion that had the right cable could use mac does anyone know suspicions are correct just full mkd
comp.sys.mac.hardware	microphone article rhp gazette bcm tmc edu chen nuclear med bcm tmc edu chenlin wrote just got new does not seem come with microphone damn the comes with microphone you get the rom drive all other configurations don include one
comp.sys.mac.hardware	hardware that fits mail order article unix andrew cmu edu christopher bruce kidwell andrew cmu edu writes ordered external floppy drive from them years ago when placed the order they said was stock and would ship the next day week passed and drive called them and they said they were out stock and drive should ship weeks since needed the drive right away both internal hard drive and floppy were dead cancelled order and haven dealt with them since chris kidwell andrew cmu edu too had very unpleasant experience with hardware that shi featured repeated lies about when things had shipped salesperson who was totally ignorant about what was selling charge for duties had specifically been assured were not payable and then monitor their house brand page monochrome that was the most unadulterated piece junk has ever been misfortune experience the world electronics shipped back and they refunded money but still cost something over for long distance charges non refundable taxes and duties and lost time don deal with them
comp.sys.mac.hardware	new powerbooks used hate when people posted messages like this but now that contemplating purchase can see why they has anyone heard any upcoming within the next months advances the powerbook line can expect see powerpc powerbook some point the future assume would take too much power and generate too much heat for installation powerbook thanks for your help
comp.sys.mac.hardware	clock speed centris what the actual clock speed centris mhz mhz thanks advance peter white csc albany edu pwhite mac archive umich edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	formatting more than possible friend mine who owns said that recently got program that can format disk that can exceed the normal capacity disk apparently rewrites the driver takes the driver something that allows get more space out normal floppy disk supposedly gets upto megs something like don have the program since can use and its supposed called something like form something like that question whether its possible this the mac and its not possible due hardware limitations developer friend mine said that might possible but doesn deal with this aspect the field much thanks for any information contributed steve
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sad mac scsi question hooked old meg external mac hardrive powerbook reformatted the drive copied all the files from the powerbook except the systemfolder deleted the files from the powerbook biggest error sigh and then rebooted the whole set and chimes death get the following sad mac error ran norton and claims its bad scsi driver and suggests replaceing used apples disk tools but couldn update the hardrives scsi driver claimed was use but couldn even mount the thing though could see when checking the scsi bus after turning after booting machine first what does that error above refer the right track there anything can short intialising the drive since need the data there thanks bourne
comp.sys.mac.hardware	formatting more than possible applied engineering used sell disk drive for the apple iigs that read and wrote meg disk wonder the drive would work mac since using old drive from iigs iisi now just thought tttttt eeeee eeeee eeee eeee steve liu vvv drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu eeeee eeeee drlovemd jhuvms hcf jhu edu newsgroups comp sys mac hardware comp sys mac software subject formatting more than possible summary expires references hpq csulb edu distribution organization homewood academic computing johns hopkins university baltimore usa keywords article hpq csulb edu sluh beach csulb edu jeff masud writes friend mine who owns said that recently got program that can format disk that can exceed the normal capacity disk apparently rewrites the driver takes the driver something that allows get more space out normal floppy disk supposedly gets upto megs something like don have the program since can use and its supposed called something like form something like that question whether its possible this the mac and its not possible due hardware limitations developer friend mine said that might possible but doesn deal with this aspect the field much thanks for any information contributed steve applied engineering used sell disk drive for the apple iigs that read and wrote meg disk wonder the drive would work mac since using old drive from iigs iisi now just thought tttttt eeeee eeeee eeee eeee steve liu vvv drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu eeeee eeeee drlovemd jhuvms hcf jhu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	data transfer rate the new series micropolis have question for all looking for the new fast scsi drives from micropolis the june macworld have seen similar ads for the ide versions ibm magazines well the says that all three drives have fast scsi interface but then says that the dtr rate for each drive megabytes second max how can this thought that drive was fast scsi had have dtr megs second assuming the megs sec claim micropolis from the cache admit that would very impressed the drive can read write data megs second thank you
comp.sys.mac.hardware	problem printing quark swii got problem printing with stylewriterii printing from iivx with megs ram trying print quark file that has fonts couple boxes and gradient fills two things happen get disk full error that can find documented also have parts letters that are over one the gradient fills get cut off this only happens the text over the fill text adjecent different box uneffected any ideas thanks for the help karl jacobs jacobs cerritos edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra pds video cards friend heavily into midi and using quadra maybe with all but one nubus slot populated with arcane music hardware and video card reports bit video too slow for good real time display what needs see also reports that the built video even worse not mac guru and haven seen the system this about all know suspect that his nubus heavily loaded and think improvements might come from switch accelerated pds slot video card does this sound right who makes pds accelerated video card for the quadra thats worth looking any other suggestions thanks advance email agorski mitre org arthur gorski snail the mitre corporation nasa road one houston texas
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris flaky ydqc uiuc edu scott uiuc edu jay scott writes rep the dealer actually university order center they don have any immediate financial interest told that they have been having lots problems with their centris didn into details but mentioned problems with the floppy drive and intermittent problems with printing files sounded like they were having both hardware problems and software compatibility problems with the machine not recommending the centris anybody says consider centris iivx why would recommend iivx over lciii don know but that what said what does the net think did the dealer just get one flaky machine did apple send the out the door too early your working just great buggy too jay scott scott uiuc edu sounds like your dealer really wants get rid the iivx has stock can imaging that they are getting hard sell given that way faster and comparable price lciii about the same speed and way cheaper your dealer may well trying hard can convince people that iivx are much better buy than just can get rid all his old stock disrespect dealers the iivx intended jon nielsen jon uwa edu department computer science university western australia
comp.sys.mac.hardware	disabling the eject mac trying find program that will stop the macs from spitting out their boot disk was told one exists but can find anyone know where can find thanks robert harvey duty programmer information technology victoria university valiant vut edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help formatting disk array have northern telecom disk array dated that has two drives units and cannot get formatted set the scsi and software recognizes the unit but cannot mount anything have use both drives the array any help with these drives possibly newer software than what using fwb hdt and will greatly appreciated grey grey mull blaine catt ncsu edu smoke pot dodge the draft cheat gbmull eos ncsu edu your wife become president ncsu catt program the american dream
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors should they kept hours day have some questions about this subject like leave computer think going using withing the next hours but get sick dad constantly coming and asking why the computer you not using also wonder about computer being harmed fluctuations voltage from other things garbage disposal etc here are questions how much harm voltage fluctuations cause computer does not share circuit with anything big but our light dims when refrigerator comes the garbage disposal turned whose doesn and also when the washing machine does anything all these things cause drop voltage which harmful computer right also notice the fan system saver turning different speeds safer turn off and back when want use leave how much electricity does computer use have apple iigs flames with kensington system saver electric fan inside applecolor rgb monitor and external fan and its own how translate this into kilowatt hours also how much this used the monitor does the monitor use considerably less juice when the screen totally black but still many computers spin the and down constantly save power always thought this was harmful the and defeats the purpose leaving the computer the first place except portables this true thanks for the info think this will help lots people stacy
comp.windows.x	server scanline padding question almost done porting xfree new piece display hardware but have run into snag think may somewhat commonplace sending net feeler have display that non interlaced memory mapped bit display the server view the world obtained via xwd xwud seems exactly what should however the displayed version the framebuffer gives the impression that the server using scanlines that are too long after bit experimentation seems that the problem was that the server was padding the line out word boundry but the scanline size the buffer bytes which isn exactly divisible four changing the following defines mit server include servermd define bitmap scanline pad define log bitmap pad define log bytes per scanline pad define bitmap scanline pad define log bitmap pad define log bytes per scanline pad was not exactly the right solution how tell the server either don pad the scan lines all cause this server only being built run this particular display pad only byte boundries using customized version xfree under mach thanks brian
comp.windows.x	callback parameter problem after upgrade just recently upgraded our and are now running into problems with some our applications that use motif appears that pointer the widget being passed the callback function the client call nil the client and call pointers are okay some instances but bogus other instances are running sunos sun after compiling and all patches with the motifbc flag set recompiled motif and then recompiled the application did skip step leave something out there flag that should have used should have left motif alone any answers suggestions would greatly appreciated thanks kathy kathy saint she witch she witch not dead yet how can you tell she witch she looks like one saint mitchell hac com monthy python the holy grail
comp.windows.x	request unsubscribe please remove from this mailing list finally got our news feed ron ron lundstrom collaborative research inc ron cric com main street fax waltham
comp.windows.x	connecting digitiser repost there posted this comp windows intrinsics but got response posting here wanting connect digitiser made for pcs into workstation understanding the windows can understand variety input devices including digitiser tablets however this digitiser makes use the serial port there would seem need have special device driver the manual pages say that the server will accept input from devices listed the usr lib devices file display number shouldn think would able simply insert dev input device this file and expect digitiser work but maybe wrong what would like know does anybody out there have digitiser connected their workstation for use pointer for rather than just input specific application what were the steps required for installation did you need special device driver did the manufacturer supply are there generic public domain device drivers around understand that digitisers generally use only couple standard formats any help would greatly appreciated cheers vaughan vaughan clarkson email vaughan ewd dsto gov engineering student phone glider pilot fax
comp.windows.x	summary virtual mouse got the following today from gary risebrough and worked fine excerpts from mail apr virtual keybo ito aodc gov with regard have the following lines xresources olwm keyboardcommands full olvwm keyboardcommands full olwm grabvirtualkeys true olvwm grabvirtualkeys true have openwindows keyboardcommands full openwindows virtualgrabkeys false which seems work cheers gary riseborough phone gary aodc gov
comp.windows.x	problem with xterm access tty running xterm under motif mwm and unix svr unisys based machine default shell bin csh the shell whenever run xterm get the following message before the first shell prompt warning access tty thus job control this shell after this can run any job control commands like etc also can run another xterm from the command line this xterm can only launch additional xterms from mwmrc menu appreciate some help with this problem pointers where can get some help the way environment variable term set xterm saad mufti personal library software mail mufti pls com
comp.windows.x	how can change sun cgthree writes dword hello xperts out there just built for sunos sparc have gcc and like use its bit capability generate release which will render the frame buffer using store double bit machine code can anyone tell which directories source files compiler switches begin with thanks advance spencer greene nimbus technology inc sgreene nimbus com santa clara california usa sgiblab gate tech sgreene patriotism the last refuge scoundrel samuel johnson
comp.windows.x	has escaped bradley grip cis upenn edu john bradley writes found answers the name contrib tar before even think about getting this going posted comp sources any time the near future greg greg sands department engineering science university auckland sands auckland new zealand
comp.windows.x	entrancy xlib functions known problem found problem the use xlib functions regarding entrancy decided implement animated cursor using created cursors calling xdefinecursor from sig alrm signal handler this used indicate are waiting for operator request complete production control system was redrawing the screen underneath the animated cursor and then restoring the standard cursor when complete found dumped core and upon analysis was when the sig alrm handler was called during xdrawstring call xdrawstring was doing bcopy presumably internal structure when the xdefinecursor was called presumably the internal structure that xdrawstring was manipulating was not stable state and sent xdefinecursor where shouldn have been has anyone else experienced this there any official documentation that says you should ensure this doesn happen should bcopy atomic are running sgi irix with regards martin martin visser electrical software engineer engineering technology department bhp steel slab and plate products division box wollongong nsw australia phone ext fax mail visser itwol bhp com
comp.windows.x	imake tex looking for beta testers article efinnl fbi news informatik uni dortmund klute tommy informatik uni dortmund rainer klute writes announced the technical conference january would like make imake tex the imake support for using the tex typesetting system publically available currently imake tex beta test here the computer science department dortmund university and looking for some more beta testers preferably with different tex and imake installations judging from the responses far have not made clear enough article quoted above that imake tex not for installing tex but for using with imake tex you will never again have fiddle around with calling latex and its various utility programs makeindex bibtex simply type make and your document dvi file will date all you have write simple imakefile and let imake generate suitable makefile for you here such imakefile include tex tmpl paperformata simplelatextarget document the generated makefile provides the following commands make depend searching the tex source files for dependencies like input somefile make dvi generate date dvi file make viewdvi display your screen make generate postscript version your document make viewps display make clean remove unnecessary things make veryclean remove even the dvi file make makefiles generate makefiles subdirectories this seems attractive you you are willing test imake tex and send short test report you are willing cope with rudimentary english documentation however the german version completed and included then you are invited beta tester looking forward your mail dipl inform rainer klute immer richtig beraten univ dortmund irb postfach tel dortmund fax new address after june univ dortmund dortmund
comp.windows.x	has escaped article netnews upenn edu bradley grip cis upenn edu john bradley writes from bradley grip cis upenn edu john bradley subject has escaped date apr gmt not another false alarm not certainly done next week message this the real thing repeat this not drill batten down the hatches hide the women and lock the cows has finally escaped was cleaning its cage this morning when overpowered broke down the office door and fled the lab was last seen heading the general direction export lcs mit edu nearly per second found answers the name contrib tar have blast off the vacation capital the waco texas jhb
comp.windows.x	german keyboard alt ppl running xfree under linux sls and trying get the german keyboard working have already recompiled kernel and the german keyboard the textmode works just fine have found out that there preconfigured german keymap for called xmodmap usr lib ran xmodmap usr lib xmodmap first impression was very good was able get and straight there still little problem can solve however cannot get the backslash bar brackets and curly brackets the alt key doesn seem work tried xev find out whether produces event all and does looking its keycode the xmodmap found the entry mode switch which doesn ring any bell the entries for the keys cannot use seem correct example keycode ssharp questn backslash the first entries can even get the first one the unmodified key and the second the key with shift but what the guess that should the key with alt but isn anybody has run into similar problems and knows how solve them help would appreciated alaric
comp.windows.x	help anything about from thu apr date thu apr from gavin fairlamb status hello folks doing uni project and was wondering you could supply with some specific info references for info regarding considerations for installation xwindows unknown model motif openlook xtoolkit glossary any term considering this software for the project which deals image analysis any info would greatly appreciated please email golum riv csu edu
comp.windows.x	help anything about from thu apr date thu apr from gavin fairlamb status hello folks doing uni project and was wondering you could supply with some specific info references for info regarding considerations for installation xwindows unknown model motif openlook xtoolkit linux glossary any term considering this software for the project which deals image analysis any info would greatly appreciated please email golum riv csu edu
comp.windows.x	background processing applications have written server program which makes socket connections many nodes and collects data from that nodes periodically need display this data application tried invoke this server using xtaddapptimeout which works but the problem here some time there delay collecting data doesn returns eventloop during that time and application remains busy and doesn respond users input button press events are queued and exected after server finished its task now going try appaddinput call that reads pipe only when there something read pipe thinking creating one pipe which server will write and client which application will read now have some doubts which you may able clarify when fork process will create copy process right now what does this two copies mean two shells where should fork application what are the responsibilities this processes how should call this processes can fork more than one processes that can read from more than one servers input thanks samir patel spatel tamu edu
comp.windows.x	sources for vuewm gadgets does anyone know any sites resources where can find gadgets for the vuewm window manager such types actions icons for the file manager and event manager etc tanks all input appreciated
comp.windows.x	xsun not finding default font sol joel zodiac code com joel reymont writes netters just built under solaris used the multi screen patch well the sunos patch and everything builds great except for that error message xsun gives upon startup says cannot set default font path stuff deleted and cannot set default font fixed supply the option doesn complain about the font path but still complains about the font have symlinks from usr lib the place where distribution lives try run xsun under truss the best way this logging over the network and typing truss open xsun open opt lib fonts misc fonts dir rdonly open opt lib fonts misc fonts alias rdonly open opt lib fonts speedo fonts dir rdonly open opt lib fonts speedo fonts alias rdonly err enoent open opt lib fonts dpi fonts dir rdonly open opt lib fonts dpi fonts alias rdonly open opt lib fonts dpi fonts dir rdonly open opt lib fonts dpi fonts alias rdonly open opt lib fonts misc pcf rdonly open opt lib fonts misc cursor pcf rdonly this will give you and idea where xsun things the fonts should you have defined project root and done make install everything should have gone right default even without symbolic links casper
comp.windows.x	audio extension there official extension which allows the use audio most the audio programs use system specific ways access the audio capabilities the computer they run there hardware independent way this like the video extension thanks for any help erik wilde wilde tik ethz swiss federal institute technology eth zuerich laboratory computer engineering and networks tik eth zentrum etz zuerich phone fax
comp.windows.x	imake tex looking for beta testers announced the technical conference january would like make imake tex the imake support for using the tex typesetting system publically available currently imake tex beta test here the computer science department dortmund university and looking for some more beta testers preferably with different tex and imake installations dipl inform rainer klute immer richtig beraten univ dortmund irb postfach tel dortmund fax new address after june univ dortmund dortmund
comp.windows.x	save under with hans bos hans xelion wrote have the following problem servers when window obscured pop window which has the save under attribute set the subwindows window are not restored normally the subwindows are redrawn when the parent window gets expose event but because the save under attribute used for the pop window that obscured window expose event sent had the same problem and most our machines works use backing store instead save under marcus marcus schnell marcus iiasa international institute for applied systems analysis iiasa laxenburg austria phone fax vice commissioner the australian rules internet football league arifl
comp.windows.x	has escaped netnews upenn edu bradley grip cis upenn edu john bradley writes batten down the hatches hide the women and lock the cows has finally escaped really bums out that went shareware shareware for personal use only you may use for your own what does this mean anyway can sit company and look pictures off the net spare time amusement and you find nifty useful generally cool some value you your non deductable donation would greatly appreciated the suggested donation though course larger donations are quite welcome folks who donate more can receive real nice bound copy the manual for extra charge commercial government and institutional users must register their copies for the exceedingly reasonable price just per workstation terminal site licenses are available for those who wish run large number machines contact the author for more details now since universities are institutions right doesn this mean that most everyone the world affected this don believe there are that many running windows home yet relatively speaking can the author legally sell uses tiff and jpeg code developed others did the author get permission sell these works did the author also get permission from all the people who contributed sell their work well guess that now nobody going want help the author maintain the code anymore now that has become commercial product and support for will begin slide downhill this the case then that bummer really liked chris sherman sherman lea csc ncsu edu
comp.windows.x	cannot create plane window hello ers have problem not able create window with bit planes the following code illustrates the problem include stdio include xlib include xutil main display display window win xvisualinfo vinfo colormap colormap xsetwindowattributes attributes xevent event status status display xopendisplay null status xmatchvisualinfo display defaultscreen display truecolor vinfo status fprintf stderr visual not found exit colormap xcreatecolormap display defaultrootwindow display vinfo visual allocnone attributes colormap colormap win xcreatewindow display defaultrootwindow display inputoutput vinfo visual cwcolormap attributes xmapwindow display win for xnextevent display event tried this with sgi with plane truecolor server and with plane directcolor server with the obviously neccessary change both running the client side have tried with xlib and decstation and with xlib decstation all the combinations gave badmatch error the createwindow request far can tell from the manual the only attribute which may give badmatch the colormap belongs wrong visual but the visual was correctly matched did not get the error message what doing wrong for information can tell that xwud aborts with the same error karsten internet krs kampsax karsten spang phone kampsax data fax box hvidovre denmark
comp.windows.x	has escaped article netnews upenn edu bradley grip cis upenn edu john bradley writes not another false alarm not certainly done next week message this the real thing repeat this not drill batten down the hatches hide the women and lock the cows has finally escaped was cleaning its cage this morning when overpowered broke down the office door and fled the lab was last seen heading the general direction export lcs mit edu nearly per second found answers the name contrib tar have blast off the vacation capital the waco texas and here the first patch the following fixes some problems with the imakefile files and makes possible compile under solaris without having use the ucb stuff imakefile objs xcmap programs bggen vdcomp xcmap defined havejpeg defined havetiff ifdef havejpeg objs xcmap programs bggen vdcomp xcmap all echo echo did you remember make depend first echo defined havejpeg defined havetiff ifdef havejpeg subdirs tiff endif define passcdebugflags makesubdirs subdirs dependsubdirs dubdirs endif all echo echo did you remember make depend first echo all echo building echo subdirs tiff endif define passcdebugflags define ihavesubdirs makesubdirs subdirs endif all echo building echo srcs srcs srcs srcs srcs dependtarget alltarget programs normalprogramtarget objs deplibs local libraries normalprogramtarget bggen objs deplibs local libraries srcs srcs srcs srcs srcs alltarget programs dependtarget ifdef ihavesubdirs dependsubdirs subdirs endif normalprogramtarget objs deplibs local libraries normalprogramtarget bggen objs deplibs local libraries signal macros defined sun defined sysv define hold sig sighold sigalrm define release sig sigrelse define pause sig sigpause else define hold sig sigblock sigmask sigalrm define release sig sigblock define pause sig sigpause endif default for most folks define random rand define srandom srand endif defined sun defined sysv define random rand define srandom srand endif xcmap include files include stdio defined sun defined sysv include string else include strings endif include ctype include xos tiff imakefile tif compress imakefile hasgcc states mkg states states traditional mkg states cflags mkg states mkg states states states else states mkg states states mkg states cflags mkg states mkg states states states endif depend states clean mkg states states dependtarget george lindholm phone university computing services ubc fax agricultural road vancouver canada internet lindholm ucs ubc bitnet usergnl ubcmtsg
comp.windows.x	server documentaion where can get documentation about the server internals btw also interested documentation about tiga any hints welcome thanks rainer rainer hochreiter telephone elin energieanwendung gesmbh telefax penzingerstr wien austria europe mail rainer elin
comp.windows.x	menubutton widget question scott evans server virginia edu writes trying create button that has both label and bitmap using the menubutton widget this possible right now all get the bitmap sign the label that expected the first sentence describing the bitmap resource the menubutton section the athena widget set language interface documentation states bitmap bitmap display instead the label one way round this might make use the button backgroundpixmap resource but remember that you user your application won able set from resource file also the button won automatically the size the bitmap the bitmap will tiled necessary you could set the button dimensions match its size jim wight newcastle department computing science university newcastle tel newcastle upon tyne united kingdom fax
comp.windows.x	has escaped wasn the shareware fee suggestion john then the individual make the choice whether not honour and part with money personally was his position would exactly the same thing john has obviously put lot time and effort into and why shouldn receive some money for just pennies worth keep the good work john julian name julian self phone ext email julian comp lancs fax post university lancaster department computing engineering building bailrigg lancaster lancashire united kingdom
comp.windows.x	button sensitivity problem motif app under openwindows the motif application consists multiple transient shells children single toplevel shell appshell toplevelshell transientshell transientshell while transient shell popped application modifies the sensitivity button the toplevel shell which hidden the transient shell window when the transient shell popped down the button sensitivity correct but the button text remains unchanged solid shaded subsequent selection the button causes the text revert the correct visual state when tracing event messages sent the application many the events seen under mwm are not present under openwindows anyone has any suggestions solutions please post send mail thanks
comp.windows.x	cannot create plane window summary article apr nbivax nbi spang nbivax nbi karsten spang writes have problem not able create window with bit planes gave badmatch error the createwindow request far can tell from the manual the only attribute which may give badmatch the colormap belongs wrong visual but the visual was correctly matched got several answers the most complete was from errol crary errolc tek com have just looked the server listings mit server dix window and there are several ways which you can get badmatch error even though reilly book only says borderwidth nonzero for inputonly class inputonly depth find out the depth and visual are acceptable for this screen vmask cwborderpixmap cwborderpixel class inputonly depth pparent drawable depth vmask cwcolormap class inputonly visual ancwopt visual ancwopt colormap none case inputonly which not your case seems the reilly case case should not the case since you got the visual for the screen case looks suspicious you are giving cwborder the attribute mask and since the visual not the parent depth would suspect you need supply border pixel from the new colormap you are going use for this window case does not seem the problem since you supply the cwcolormap the attributes thanks for your help karsten internet krs kampsax karsten spang phone kampsax data fax box hvidovre denmark
comp.windows.x	has escaped sherman lea csc ncsu edu chris sherman gripes really bums out that went shareware been shareware for about year hadn you noticed don have problem with this john bradley has put hell lot work into and feels that time get some monetary reward from that surely his right can the author legally sell uses tiff and jpeg code developed others did the author get permission sell these works had you bothered consult the distribution terms the ijg jpeg code which are right there the distribution you would have observed that specifically grant permission for use shareware and commercial software sam leffler libtiff copyright also grants permission for unrestricted use including resale guess that now nobody going want help the author maintain the code anymore now that has become commercial product commercial there big difference between polite request for voluntary donation and commercial illegal copy this and sic our lawyers you software agree that john readme file could little clearer about what means personal use regards tom lane organizer independent jpeg group
comp.windows.x	xlib timeouts article ccdw kudu ccdw kudu dave wilson writes the process modifying application that uses xlib like include timer driven facility for network polling you have the same sorts things that does with its main loop that you have rig timer queue and you have put select poll call your main loop you can obtain the file descriptor the display connection using connectionnumber display the functionality the main loop dispatcher quite useful the good news you can get the source and plagiarize
comp.windows.x	summary virtual mouse article frolv awvi andrew cmu edu derrick brashear andrew cmu edu writes got the following today from gary risebrough and worked fine excerpts from mail apr virtual keybo ito aodc gov have openwindows keyboardcommands full openwindows virtualgrabkeys false which seems work where can find man pages about virtualgrabkeys resource doesn show openwindows man pages larry virden inet lvirden cas org personal falls place reynoldsburg
comp.windows.x	imake tex looking for beta testers article rnodlinnlde fbi news informatik uni dortmund klute tommy informatik uni dortmund rainer klute writes this seems attractive you you are willing test imake tex and send short test report you are willing cope with rudimentary english documentation however the german version completed and included then you are invited beta tester looking forward your mail please don respond anymore have enough beta testers now thank you dipl inform rainer klute immer richtig beraten univ dortmund irb postfach tel dortmund fax new address after june univ dortmund dortmund
comp.windows.x	need help with mit magic cookie trying turn xauthorization using mit magic cookie servers cpu heads xterminals but running into couple problems first least one our applications maple doesn seem understand how deliver the magic cookie and won run display with authorization turned second have people with client software remote machines and really don want hassle them with having copy their xauthority file the remote machine assuming that the clients there support xauthorization what would like turn mit magic cookie default with non privileged users able turn off dropping back host based authorization yes know how turn off changing the xconfig file for the heads and the client authorize setting for the xterminals but non privileged users can this checked with the support line and there doesn appear way can anyone confirm this you know way accomplish what want btw running hpux and vue thanks advance rick rick mcteague electrical engineering department speed scientific school university louisville louisville internet sysrick starbase spd louisville edu disclaimer stand comedian anyone takes seriously doing something wrong
comp.windows.x	overriding default behaviour specify ramdomplacement randomplace your tvtwmrc this places the windows not interactively pseudo random positions your screens
comp.windows.x	buttonpress buttonrelease events multiple clients how can capture buttonpress buttonrelease events multiple clients want know the user still the display before locking the screen can get keypress keyrelease and pointer motion events but the user pressing the mouse button the same location the mouse doesn move can capture the events the reilly xlib programming manual vol says page only one client can select button events any one window one time due the grab that automatically takes place any help would appreciated deryl steinert dus ornl gov
comp.windows.x	congruent corporation motif windows many people emailed asking for information congruent corporation product which allows motif unix applications function windows today was sent telephone number kind person the name sam give better attribution but the mail different application vms the number call new york city the email address info congruent com the product ntnix other details not know they said they send email info but yet has not arrived more get cheers folks snail lsl washing one hands the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means side with the powerful not neutral quote freire poster oxfam
comp.windows.x	congruent corporation motif more info here follows headerless editing email message full except for the header sent congruent corporation today received about minutes ago and still haven read have fun product overview allows existing unix applications hosted windows includes common support clients supports terminals provides multiuser facilitates porting unix applications window bsd behavior programming libraries target market customers with unix applications who want standardize windows allows hosting windows with minimal effort permits clients single windows system support multiple users servers can terminals unix based based windows based bsd library behavior minimize unix porting effort layered above standard libraries winsock registry path drive replacement bsd include file layout true berkeley sockets supplies common bsd functions missing from programming libraries complete libraries motif widget libraries motif uil registry based configuration locator direct windows gdi via local socket winnt support applications includes full set client applications motif window manager mwm multiuser capabilities ntnixterm special adaptation xterm special hosted command shell provides logname home facilities multiple users multiple servers can simultaneously access single system terminal support bootp boot terminals tftpd for font loading font server for scaled fonts xremote for serial slip info com congruent congruent information snail lsl washing one hands the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means side with the powerful not neutral quote freire poster oxfam
comp.windows.x	click focus point focus having the problem ensuring point focus when the mouse cursor enters window application using interviews but that may not matter this seems generic problem for example use openwindows sparc with point focus set and that generally works but not always depending what was going some window when move the cursor from one shell tool window another seems question then what can within guarantee point focus within application thanks for any response dave
comp.windows.x	amiga there were couple articles posted this group the other day with the above subject heading unfortunately they expired before could read them could really use xterm like thing amiga could somwone give any information thanks larry nittler
comp.windows.x	wanted diagram drawing program looking for program draw various kinds diagrams linux system must free must run standard monochrome with small screen size motif openlook etc must compile under linux with gcc most generic unix software works must produce postscript files that can include into latex documents with dvips just tell another free program that converts one the supported formats must produce drawings that are larger than the window size scrollable know several such programs idraw xfig tgif have experience with any them features would like the programs are ability draw circles arcs straight lines boxes and arrows support for both dashed and solid line styles for all these objects support for texts any size ability move copy resize rotate any part the drawing ability turn any part the drawing into library component transistor symbol composed three lines arrow and circle any aid numeric coordinates screen grid align parts the drawing less essential but fact very handy preservation connection move one part the drawing the lines that connect that part the rest the drawing stay connected ideally want the tool general and flexible that comfortable draw electronic schematics flow charts logic diagrams data flow diagrams and block diagrams with just want know which the programs offer which the features whishlist and are there any other programs how demanding are the programs with respect disk space memory and cpu usage are any the programs known work linux with monochrome lennart
comp.windows.x	aix version andrew the andrew consortium the school computer science carnegie mellon pleased announce auis for aix the andrew user interface system version our cdrom version was developed for aix version the ibm and many other platforms accomodate aix version have created patch the sources the patch and accompanying instructions for its application can retrieved charge via anonymous ftp from the internet host emsworth andrew cmu edu the directory aixpatch for those without internet access diskette can ordered for sending faxing purchase order the address below the base system can ordered from cdrom ftp from the same host note that this patch adds additional functionality but simply allows auis compile under aix the andrew user interface system auis comprehensive environment top windows which you can create use and mail multi media applications and documents major advantage auis the capability recursively embed objects thus one can edit text that not only contains multiple fonts indentation and other typography but also contains embedded raster images spreadsheets drawing editors equations simple animations and these embedded objects can themselves contain other objects including text auis has three components the andrew user environment integrated and extensible set applications beginning with the text editor help system system monitoring tool editor based shell interface and other editors corresponding the various available types objects the andrew toolkit atk portable object oriented user interface toolkit that provides the architecture wherein objects can embedded one another with the toolkit programmers can create new objects that can embedded easily those that come with the system the andrew message system ams provides multi media interface mail and bulletin boards ams supports several mail management strategies and implements many advanced features including authentication return receipts automatic sorting mail vote collection and tabulation enclosures audit trails related messages and subscription management also provides variety interfaces that support ttys and low function personal computers addition high function workstations the current public release andrew version includes support for the new internet mime multipurpose internet mail extensions standards for multipart multimedia mail newer release for members the andrew consortium has numerous additional features including new editors for drawings images fonts and user preferences remote andrew demo service you can try out andrew from your own work station via the remote andrew demo service you need host machine the internet running the window system you able compose multimedia documents navigate through the interactive andrew tour and use the andrew message system browse through few cmu four thousand bulletin boards and newsgroups get started with the remote andrew demo service simply run the following command your machine finger help atk itc cmu edu the service will give you further instructions more information about andrew available from information requests andrew consortium carnegie mellon university smith hall forbes avenue pittsburgh usa phone fax info andrew request andrew cmu edu contact info andrew request andrew cmu edu for additional information
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comp.windows.x	configure event handling repost have two questions well probably more about how expose configure events are handled have appl which uses window draw since give the user the capability scaling and zooming well allowing the window resized made translation table for the expose configure events the expose event calls redraw method while the configure event calls rescale method the rescale method invokes fake expose event actually just calls the redraw appropriate expose struct draw the data quest when the appl compiled linked running either env get multiple redraws when the window gets uncovered the size changed assume getting cascading events that right any suggestions how handle trap events better way quest when the appl compiled linked get expose events whatsoever events and translation tables act differently thanks advance steve kelley umcp umiacs captain protest skelley umiacs umd edu not merry man worf
comp.windows.x	print from within application have application which draws graphs bar charts etc need include print support for these from within application user can print the graphs from within the applictaion clicking print button not sure can invoke xwd xpr from within application and specify the window get window dump and then send this file for printing there are other ways doing this would appreciate any help this regard thanx mahendra please mail your replies not regular reader this news group will post summary there sufficient interest mahendra chheda mmc rit edu mmc ritvax isc rit edu office residence dept computer science kimball drive rochester institute tech rochester tel tel
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comp.windows.x	looking for david smyth christian mollard bull writes zvi nynexst com zvi guter writes the author wcl the current care taker his the only name found the dist tree have tried mail him david smyth mchp sni but the mail bounced back any help finding him will greatly appreciated try david uucp david ztivax siemens com nope here david jpl devvax jpl nasa gov david smyth david jpl devvax jpl nasa gov senior software engineer not use mail yet cccp and object guru office jet propulsion lab oak grove drive pasadena that sun windows thingy what called you know its really awful motif that motif yuck
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comp.windows.x	has escaped rmhiuinnh skeena ucs ubc lindholm ucs ubc george lindholm writes article rlhhkinng skeena ucs ubc lindholm ucs ubc george lindholm writes article netnews upenn edu bradley grip cis upenn edu john bradley writes and here the first patch the following fixes some problems with the imakefile files and makes possible compile under solaris without having use the ucb stuff oops didn get the signal processing right thats what get from doing the work ascii terminal here the fixed patch the patches for need use ifdef svr rather than the overly complex defined sun defined sysv order generically compile svr architecture also rand and srand don work very well use lrand and seed get better results otherwise compiles just fine esix system box with xfree and gcc just uncommented the gcc definition the makefile added usr lib usr include the copts line and modified libs include lsocket lnsl really john you just use the imakefile things like this don even have get mentioned signal macros ifdef svr define hold sig sighold sigalrm define release sig sigrelse sigalrm define pause sig sigpause sigalrm else define hold sig sigblock sigmask sigalrm define release sig sigblock define pause sig sigpause endif default for most folks define random rand define srandom srand endif ifdef svr define random lrand define srandom seed endif
comp.windows.x	has escaped article apr comp lancs julian comp lancs julian self writes wasn the shareware fee suggestion john then the individual make the choice whether not honour and part with money personally was his position would exactly the same thing john has obviously put lot time and effort into and why shouldn receive some money for interesting look the change mind that john has had the author file for xgif early incarnation reads part follows whatever you want with this program though would nice name remained somewhere other than that may freely modified distributed and used fill disk space the readme file for reads part follows note you like the program and decide use please send short email message that effect sure mention the full name your organization when our sponsors ask what have you been doing would most handy able come with nice long list organizations that are using code developed the grasp lab brownie points were the copyright notices appeared then was copyright the university pennsylvania permission use copy and distribute for non commercial purposes hereby granted without fee providing that the above copyright notice appear all copies and that both the copyright notice and this permission notice appear supporting documentation the software may modified for your own purposes but modified versions may not distributed this software provided without any express implied warranty the readme file for reads part follows also you find nifty useful generally cool and some value you your donation not tax deductable would greatly appreciated probably fine amount donate folks who donate and will receive nice bound copy the manual printed spiffo dpi laser printer look lovely mounted over your fireplace which looks suggestion see julian comment above the copyright notices appeared then was copyright john bradley and the university pennsylvania the readme for reads part follows shareware for personal use only you may use for your own amusement and you find nifty useful generally cool some value you your non deductable donation would greatly appreciated the suggested donation though course larger donations are quite welcome folks who donate more can receive printed bound copy the manual for extra charge you want one just ask sure specify the version that you are using commercial government and institutional users must register their copies for the exceedingly reasonable price just per workstation terminal site licenses are available for those who wish run large number machines contact the author for more details the second paragraph says that universities must register and pay potentially large sum money the copyright notices now read copyright john bradley was this developed upenn time equipment what they and the grasp lab mentioned above have say about all this richard bingle bingle purdue edu dept computer sciences backbone purdue bingle purdue university west lafayette
comp.windows.x	how mask the left button one way mask the left button check the contents the xevent that the xaddeventhandler send your event handling function your case the show mouse position function the xevent arrive this function xevent event then the value event xbutton button the button that was pressed you just switch that value order distinguish between them case was not clear event xevent button int the way you mentioned the button motionmask and anyone can help with these motionmasks would grateful can not figure out how distinguish between motions which button pressed the motion occurring essence would like seperate event handler for motion with each button unfortunately the xevent sent motionmask does not seem contain the value the pressed button any ideas eps
comp.windows.x	non roman font availability can anybody tell anything about the availibility non roman fonts for windows especially unicode and han idiographic fonts also how about conversion tools for getting macintosh fonts into format suitable for would assume not too difficult for bitmap fonts the faq for this group and comp fonts are not very helpful these questions matthew freedman washington information systems mattf cac washington edu ave floor seattle
comp.windows.x	has escaped article rlhhkinng skeena ucs ubc lindholm ucs ubc george lindholm writes article netnews upenn edu bradley grip cis upenn edu john bradley writes not another false alarm not certainly done next week message this the real thing repeat this not drill batten down the hatches hide the women and lock the cows has finally escaped was cleaning its cage this morning when overpowered broke down the office door and fled the lab was last seen heading the general direction export lcs mit edu nearly per second found answers the name contrib tar have blast off the vacation capital the waco texas and here the first patch the following fixes some problems with the imakefile files and makes possible compile under solaris without having use the ucb stuff oops didn get the signal processing right thats what get from doing the work ascii terminal here the fixed patch imakefile objs xcmap programs bggen vdcomp xcmap defined havejpeg defined havetiff ifdef havejpeg objs xcmap programs bggen vdcomp xcmap all echo echo did you remember make depend first echo defined havejpeg defined havetiff ifdef havejpeg subdirs tiff endif define passcdebugflags makesubdirs subdirs dependsubdirs dubdirs endif all echo echo did you remember make depend first echo all echo building echo subdirs tiff endif define passcdebugflags define ihavesubdirs makesubdirs subdirs endif all echo building echo srcs srcs srcs srcs srcs dependtarget alltarget programs normalprogramtarget objs deplibs local libraries normalprogramtarget bggen objs deplibs local libraries srcs srcs srcs srcs srcs alltarget programs dependtarget ifdef ihavesubdirs dependsubdirs subdirs endif normalprogramtarget objs deplibs local libraries normalprogramtarget bggen objs deplibs local libraries xcmap include files include stdio defined sun defined sysv include string else include strings endif include ctype include xos signal macros defined sun defined sysv define hold sig sighold sigalrm define release sig sigrelse sigalrm define pause sig sigpause sigalrm else define hold sig sigblock sigmask sigalrm define release sig sigblock define pause sig sigpause endif default for most folks define random rand define srandom srand endif defined sun defined sysv define random rand define srandom srand endif tiff imakefile tif compress imakefile hasgcc states mkg states states traditional mkg states cflags mkg states mkg states states states else states mkg states states mkg states cflags mkg states mkg states states states endif depend states clean mkg states states dependtarget
comp.windows.x	face not familiar all with the format these face thingies but after seeing them some folks headers got see them and maybe make one own got dpg view linux box which displays uncompressed faces and managed compile compface too but now that looking for them can seem find any face anyones news headers could you would you please send your face header know probably get little swamped but can handle hope rick miller rick uwm edu ricxjo discus mil ricxjo muelisto send postcard get one back enposxtigu bildkarton kaj ricevos alion rick miller woods muskego wis usa
comp.windows.x	server documentation where can get documentation about the server internals btw also interested documentation about tiga any hints welcome thanks rainer rainer hochreiter telephone elin energieanwendung gesmbh telefax penzingerstr wien austria europe mail rainer elin the only book know the window system server version release elias israel erik fortune digital press copyright order number isbn isbn but there are any more please post email the names bkilgore thus spake the master programmer after three days without programming life becomes meaningless geoffrey james the tao programming disclaimer any and all opinions are mine william bruce kilgore email bkilgore ips iacd honeywell com phone smail black canyon hwy phoenix
comp.windows.x	getting openbugs for motif hello the title just about says all need list the bugs for motif thanks neal
comp.windows.x	xmtextfield truncation with lang bug have found situation which think bug motif but hoping really just mistake part does anyone know anything about this problem using xmtextfield and setting its xmnvalue hardcoded text string ascii kanji either via xtsetvalues xmtextsetstring the problem that when the xmtextfield displayed the text getting truncated depending the setting the environment variables lang more specifically all when they are set japanese the text gets truncated when they are set english everything works fine taking the default for xmncolumns please note that hardcoding text not done actual application just sample code make things easier running motif via hpux test program set handle bit kanji characters have remembered xtsetlanguageproc prior mrminitialize and font resources are set japanese fonts don know this matters but dialog box and textfield initially created with uil the problem does not happen with xmtext unfortunately substituting xmtextfields with xmtexts application not acceptable alternative way too much code modified while beta have small test program which illustrates the problem anyone wants best guess that either the code motif not properly allocating memory for japanese but since don have the source look just guess please let know this sounds familiar you have suggestion you want the sample program thanks susan swalker bbn com
comp.windows.x	intrinsics slow popups article apr alex com bryan alex com bryan boreham writes the shell waiting for the window manager respond its positioning request the window manager not responding because thinks the window already the right place exactly why the two components get into this sulk unclear all information greatly received this problem caused bad interaction between the way olwm reparents windows misfeature the protocol and bug the intrinsics the intrinsics bug that ignores the position given reparentnotify events olwm structured such way that when window popped down the last event the client receives reparentnotify event this point the intrinsics notion the shell location out date setvalues done using the same position the intrinsics thinks needs move the shell issues configurewindow request move there however mis feature the protocol that configurewindow request that has effect will generate configurenotify event the intrinsics thus waits for event that will never arrive and times out after wmtimeout has expired actually things are somewhat more complex because the request redirected the window manager but the net result the same the solution for the intrinsics note the positioning information reparentnotify events this has been implemented and available public fix this xbug for those you who are interested gorier details marks stuart marks stuart marks eng sun com window systems technology garcia ave sunsoft inc mountain view
comp.windows.x	xview window positioning problems don seem able get window positions reliably through the xview get function int get frame int get frame for example set the frame comes the correct position with the top left corner the size handle get returns well but later get returns without any intervening set frame frame fitted around canvas and turns out measuring the screen that the position the first pixel canvas relative the frame origin what gives any help most appreciated derek related subject there any way querying the window manager the thickness borders puts around frames etc derek richardson tel institute astronomy fax cambridge mail dcr mail ast cam
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comp.windows.x	has escaped found that have add the option for displaying jpegs with the new version for some reason don goes into bit mode and the resulting image displayed with colors from array instead and looks grainier since the ubiquitous bit pseudo color display would have thought could tell that this news this your peter scott nasa jpl caltech brain news any questions pjs euclid jpl nasa gov
comp.windows.x	support for does support the graphics accelerator board the sun thanks advance colin
comp.windows.x	repost cose gui this repost like find out more about this also message part text the cose announcement specifies that motif will become the common gui but what does this mean exactly they mean that all cose complient apps will have the motif look and feel they mean that all cose complient apps will use the motif toolkit api they mean both the above possible that there will motif api complient toolkit with openlook look feel how about olit xview interviews api toolkit with motif know already does this but will this considered cose complient will there more than one standard toolkit api supported how does using tooltalk fit with motif this attempt start discussion order pull much knowledge about these questions off the net feel free mail followup gil tene some days just doesn pay devil imp hellnet org sleep the morning devil diablery com
comp.windows.x	problem with german keyboard sparc yesterday changed the keyboard sparc with german keyboard and now cannot get any alt graph characters tilde usw when exit from can get the characters but not under can anybody give some hints where check for the correct installation the keyboard martin kreutzer
comp.windows.x	what second best answers please mail since not all groups the header are carried here personally like nextstep very much even more when realise how much burden ordinary windows programming also like objective better than like but sometimes the restrictions are there for instance sometimes has windows now looking for pointers tools those environments that come close nextstep the appkit etc also environs that support rapid prototyping like with without producing spaghetti code soon you want real work maybe stepstone with some windows version kit objects interviews what exactly don know kind lost touch with that world when started with nextstep thanks gerben wierda nerd tel you don know where you are going any road will take you there from the talmud rephrased lewis carroll alice wonderland
comp.windows.x	sun with sunos terminal the moment using sun cgfour bwtwo with sunos and openwindows this configuration slow and can run all the programs for example when start mailtool from and display display can open the compose window want install server sun and use xdm yes have xdm already running for other terminals log and start the programs there ready binairy the server for configuration have read something about xsun must compile the stuff myself any help welcome smeets vincent smeets competence center informatik gmbh smeets cci software engineering ada whois meppen germany
comp.windows.x	preventing user from hitting ctrl alt bksp exit hello admin for running aix motif and xdt want prevent the user from hitting cntl alt bkspc exit tried invoking with xinit but that doesn work xinit appends the the call xinitrc and not the call the man page xinit help fact tells that xinit script when really binary file far the only way been able accomplish this feat add the the call usr lpp defaults xserverrc would rather not this way does anyone have any other ideas brian deford internet deford netwrx com open networks inc usenet uunet netwrx deford commerce park tel reston fax want prevent the
comp.windows.x	has escaped interesting look the change mind that john has had very interested indeed this against this kind changes that the gnu copyleft protecting anyway simulog will abandon were using mostly for slide shows because its loop feature that display does not have display from the wonderful imagemagick package but think will implement myself even shell script should the job and forget cheers christophe muller simulog are you the police musicians
comp.windows.x	colormap problem saving image one machine and redisplaying the image another machine both are model the image created using xcreateimage and xgetimage and displayed with xputimage the image redisplayed correctly except that the colors are wrong because the server the other machine using different colormap tried saving the colormap pixel and rgb values and the redisplay performed table lookup against the new colormap this didn work because some rgb combos don exist the new colormap there way force the server load colors into set pixel values there simpler way solve this problem tried using xinitcolormap but couldn get that work either any help would appreciated don lemoine naval surface warfare center dahlgren division dahlgren dlemoin xobu nswc navy mil
comp.windows.x	dce rpc threads motif clients has anyone used dce threads with client possible have one thread listening for incoming rpcs while another processes events how you set something like this atul apara ctp com
comp.windows.x	glasgow remote execution programs part posted this few weeks back but all got back was error message pnews dev null permission denied yep dev null had mode arrghhh with renewed interest setting the display variable etc thought would post contribution this perl script solution trys intelligent about what doing that you should able type host domain etc and get xterm running host domain etc with all the difficult stuff taken care theory this program can everything you ever wanted when you wanted run remote command the background doesn even need program try big machine make for instance for backgrounded make the remote big machine for more details and full list features read the readme file about lines below all comments welcome duncan bin this shell archive remove anything before this line then unpack saving into file and typing file overwrite existing files type file you can also feed this standard input via unshar typing file this archive complete you will see the following message the end end archive contents readme imakefile manifest makefile man wrapped sinclair dcs gla thu apr path bin usr bin usr ucb export path test readme then echo shar will not clobber existing file readme else echo shar extracting readme characters sed readme end file glasgow remote execution programs version xcopyright duncan sinclair sinclair dcs gla xtrivial install but there imakefile make even more trivial xthe perl script needs some customisation before installed just xedit the file and read the comments once you done xthis you can xmkmf then make install install man xfeatures does the right thing for off site remote execution including setting display include domain names and passing magic cookies doing the xhost stuff allow different remote user name user host smart quoting arguments makes passing wild cards easy custom command execution link remacs get remote emacs command automatic xterm options names the xterm according hostname and turns login shell default command xterm propagates ish env variables remote session user may extend the list variables pass special handling for bourne shell users tries remote execution from same directory local that propagates pwd intelligent manner logs errors file overall intelligence makes reasoned decisions about what you are trying and tries the right thing written perl for portability and hackability xfor more info read the man page the source end file test readme then echo shar readme unpacked with wrong size end readme test imakefile then echo shar will not clobber existing file imakefile else echo shar extracting imakefile characters sed imakefile end file glasgow imakefile programs xall programs xinstall safe xinstallnamedprog bindir xinstallmanpage mandir xinstall bindir rxterm bindir bindir rxterm xsafe grep debug false xshar safe makekit perl sinclair dcs gla sinclair dcs gla part end file test imakefile then echo shar imakefile unpacked with wrong size end imakefile test manifest then echo shar will not clobber existing file manifest else echo shar extracting manifest characters sed manifest end file file name archive description readme read first imakefile manifest this shipping list makefile man end file test manifest then echo shar manifest unpacked with wrong size end manifest test makefile then echo shar will not clobber existing file makefile else echo shar extracting makefile characters sed makefile end file makefile generated imake not edit xconsortium imake rws exp the cpp used this machine replaces all newlines and multiple tabs and spaces macro expansion with single space imake tries compensate for this but not always successful makefile generated from imake tmpl and tmp iif xconsortium imake tmpl rws exp platform specific parameters may set the appropriate vendor configuration files site specific parameters should set the file site def full rebuilds are recommended any parameters are changed your preprocessor does not define any unique symbols you will need set bootstrapcflags when rebuilding imake usually when doing make world the first time site specific configuration parameters that need come before the platform specific parameters edit site def change site xconsortium site def rws exp platform specific configuration parameters edit sun change platform xconsortium sun rws exp operating system sunos xconsortium sunlib rules rws exp site specific configuration parameters that after the platform specific parameters edit site def change site xconsortium site def rws exp shell bin top current dir bootstrapcflags gcc fpcc struct return compress compress cpp lib cpp std cpp defines preprocesscmd gcc fpcc struct return std cpp defines install install lint lint lintlibflag lintopts axz make make ranlib ranlib ranlibinstflags troff psroff msmacros tbl tbl eqn eqn std includes std cpp defines std defines extra load flags extra libraries tags ctags sharedcodedef dsharedcode shlibdef dsunshlib proto defines instpgmflags instbinflags instuidflags instlibflags instincflags instmanflags instdatflags instkmemflags kmem projectroot usr top includes incroot cdebugflags ccoptions allincludes includes extra includes top includes std includes alldefines allincludes std defines extra defines proto defines defines cflags cdebugflags ccoptions alldefines lintflags lintopts dlint alldefines ldlibs sys libraries extra libraries ldoptions cdebugflags ccoptions local ldflags usrlibdir ldcombineflags dependflags macrofile sun cmd ckp bak bak core errs emacs tags tags make log makeout imake defines irulesrc configdir imake cmd imake duseinstalled irulesrc imake defines iconfigfiles irulesrc imake tmpl irulesrc imake rules irulesrc project tmpl irulesrc site def irulesrc macrofile extra iconfigfiles window system build parameters xconsortium project tmpl rws exp window system make variables this need coordinated with rules pathsep usrlibdir usr lib bindir usr local bin incroot usr include buildincroot top buildincdir buildincroot buildinctop incdir incroot admdir usr adm libdir usrlibdir configdir libdir config lintlibdir usrlibdir lint fontdir libdir fonts xinitdir libdir xinit xdmdir libdir xdm twmdir libdir twm manpath usr man mansourcepath manpath man mansuffix libmansuffix mandir mansourcepath mansuffix libmandir mansourcepath libmansuffix nlsdir libdir nls pexapidir libdir pex xapploaddir libdir app defaults fontcflags instappflags instdatflags imake imake depend makedepend rgb rgb fontc bdftopcf mkfontdir mkfontdir mkdirhier bin bindir mkdirhier configsrc top config docutilsrc top doc util clientsrc top clients demosrc top demos libsrc top lib fontsrc top fonts includesrc top serversrc top server utilsrc top util scriptsrc utilsrc scripts examplesrc top examples contribsrc top contrib docsrc top doc rgbsrc top rgb dependsrc utilsrc makedepend imakesrc configsrc xauthsrc libsrc xau xlibsrc libsrc xmusrc libsrc xmu toolkitsrc libsrc awidgetsrc libsrc xaw oldxlibsrc libsrc oldx xdmcplibsrc libsrc xdmcp bdftosnfsrc fontsrc bdftosnf bdftosnfsrc fontsrc clients bdftosnf bdftopcfsrc fontsrc clients bdftopcf mkfontdirsrc fontsrc clients mkfontdir fslibsrc fontsrc lib fontserversrc fontsrc server extensionsrc top extensions xilibsrc extensionsrc lib xinput pexlibsrc extensionsrc lib pexlib phigslibsrc extensionsrc lib pex xconsortium sunlib tmpl rws exp xshlibldflags assert pure text xpicflags fpic depextensionlib extensionlib lxext depxlib depextensionlib xlib extensionlib depxmulib usrlibdir libxmu soxmurev xmulibonly lxmu xmulib lxmu depoldxlib oldxlib loldx depxtoollib usrlibdir libxt soxtrev xtoollib lxt depxawlib usrlibdir libxaw soxawrev xawlib lxaw depxilib xilib lxi deppexlib pexlib lpex soxlibrev soxtrev soxawrev sooldxrev soxmurev soxextrev soxinputrev sopexrev depxauthlib usrlibdir libxau xauthlib lxau depxdmcplib usrlibdir libxdmcp xdmcplib lxdmcp depphigslib usrlibdir libphigs phigslib lphigs depxbsdlib usrlibdir libxbsd xbsdlib lxbsd lintextensionlib lintlibdir llib lxext lintxlib lintlibdir llib lintxmu lintlibdir llib lxmu lintxtool lintlibdir llib lxt lintxaw lintlibdir llib lxaw lintxi lintlibdir llib lxi lintpex lintlibdir llib lpex lintphigs lintlibdir llib lphigs deplibs depxawlib depxmulib depxtoollib depxlib deplibs deplibs deplibs deplibs deplibs deplibs imake rules for building libraries programs scripts and data files rules xconsortium imake rules rws exp start imakefile glasgow imakefile programs xall programs xinstall safe xinstall destdir bindir then set else set mkdirhier destdir bindir install instbinflags destdir bindir xinstall man man destdir mandir then set else set mkdirhier destdir mandir install instmanflags man destdir mandir mansuffix xinstall bindir rxterm bindir bindir rxterm xsafe grep debug false xshar safe makekit perl sinclair dcs gla sinclair dcs gla part common rules for all makefiles not edit xemptyrule xclean cmd xmakefile makefile then set makefile bak makefile makefile bak else exit imake cmd dtopdir top dcurdir current dir xtags tags tags tags xsaber load alldefines srcs xosaber load alldefines objs empty rules for directories that not have subdirs not edit xinstall echo install current dir done xinstall man echo install man current dir done xmakefiles xincludes dependencies generated makedepend end file test makefile then echo shar makefile unpacked with wrong size end makefile test man then echo shar will not clobber existing file man else echo shar extracting man characters sed man end file march version name xrx rxterm remote command xterm anything execution synopsis username host command rxterm username host args description xthe xprogram connect the specified host xand executes the specified command xin the background returning immediately allow the execution xof programs copies number environmental variables xthe remote session you omit command xthen will start xterm the remote host the rxterm xvarient starts remote xterm host and also passes args xto the remote xterm arguments xshell metacharacters which are not quoted are interpreted the local xmachine while quoted metacharacters are interpreted the remote xmachine xif the name the file from which xis executed anything other than xtakes this name stripped leading the command xto run the remote host using any command xparameters arguments for the remote command xif xthinks you are using xauth xbased authorisation and you are calling off site host xto different username will attempt copy authorization xkey the remote account otherwise will try use xhost xto grant access the remote host options username xuse username xas the remote username instead your local username the absence xof this option the remote username the same your local username environment xif set the values path display xenvironment xapplresdir xxfilesearchpath xuserfilesearchpath openwinhome library path xand xauthority are exported the remote program unless the xremote username different the remote host off site which xcase only display exported with all cases any variables named the xvariable rxenv xthe display variable tweaked appropriate contain qualified hostname needed diagnostics command don recognise name xcannot decode the name has been called under this case xit prints warning message and continues normal usage username hostname args xthis means could not decode the arguments given author xduncan sinclair sinclair dcs glasgow july xoriginally based program with the same name from the gwm xdistribution distinguish this from other programs xwith similar names you should refer this program the glasgow see also rsh xterm xauth xhost gwm bugs xmakes number assumptions about the relationship between the xlocal user and the remote one depending whether the remote xhost onsite not and whether alternative username was used xor not xin particular either the locally used shell the remotely xused shell the standard bourne shell xthen strange things are more likely happen especially when xit only one them xsometimes quoting can get messed xit too easy fool the smarts xto make believe something that not true and fail because xwhen xuses xhost xto grant access the xhost xcommand may fail silently xif xtries send large command the remote machine will xlikely fail with parse error from csh this happens you xwill probably have reduce the size the exported environment end file test man then echo shar man unpacked with wrong size end man test then echo shar will not clobber existing file else echo shar extracting characters sed end file usr local bin perl config change the line above point your copy perl glasgow version copyright duncan sinclair sinclair dcs gla last modified early april distribution limited per the usual mit copyright remote execution programs based script old version gwm install put your bin and make rxterm link some configuration will necessary see config comments more and more this less and less like the original major hacked work for our set and also partly written work with rather than ksh maybe turn this into our first zsh script looks like turned into perl script some point big improvement this code tries intelligent the way works this means there are tons implicit assumptions about the environment run these assumptions are all valid the machines use and environment the same time try make few assumptions possible about the remote machine here list all the more tricky ones that the remote machine has csh linux that rshell bin remote shell bin make same remote shell that path compatible use csh etc pass cookie the remote machine need but does know what with cookie eat there must others why using csh run the remote commands simply because doesn interact badly with rsh and hang waiting for file descriptor closed rather use zsh bash even perl but they are not universal csh xrequire stat what called argv argv config change these variables your domain name and pattern that will match all variations your domain name you must include those leading dots your hostname includes your domain see the code further down marked xxx dom dcs gla dompat dcs gla sgow config change this your value bindir set the variable you think your users are smarter than that xpaths usr bin config make this the name your remote shell command rsh rsh end config some variables doubt use sometime usage argv usage argv username hostname args rshell getpwuid bin home env home getpwuid xauth env xauthority home xauthority logf log stuff debug before anything else close stdin this might stop hanging due rsh weirdness xclose stdin flag xif argv shift user argv die usage luser user shift pick host any host mach argv die usage xshift things think about for the remote machine mach dompat offsite mach where seems can trust the dumb user set hostname right hostname env hostname hostname current host hostname hostname current host hostname all your hostnames include your domain comment out the next line xif offsite hostname hostname dom xxx now know where are and they are are they different diff hostname mach what the display going danger heavy regular expressions follow this needs written modular and can extended support resetting host unix required display env display display dompat display unix hostname diff display dom offsite env display display here comes the hard bit quote our args also have quote quotes cope with csh braindamage quotes are quoted thus for arg foo bar get foo bar xforeach argv what doing xprog argv last prog argv rxterm unshift argv diff unshift argv xterm mach last prog argv unshift argv last prog warn argv don recognise name nothing else become rxterm xif argv unshift argv diff unshift argv xterm mach some special considerations are not ourselves the other side xif offsite user want pass cookie here xauth this going unsecure the cookie will appear number command line args but least work this will need enhanced ever fix the code above set display when return the server cookie path path xpaths xauth list display chop cookie cooks split cookie shift cooks unshift stuff xauth add display cooks cooks else yuk what crock hate doing this system xhost mach dev null dev null diff really only want pass value for display vars display split env rxenv else some variables wish export vars display xenvironment xfilesearchpath xuserfilesearchpath xapplresdir openwinhome library path manpath for rxman and bourne shell users xauthority split env rxenv braindead bourne shell needs given path would rather not pass the current path because might not work the destination machine rather was set the user remote shell during the rsh fortunately all programs are arch independant place and shouldn cos problem locally check against rshell because they might running another shell differant from their login shell know sounds weird but too common round here also included ksh the brain damage cos can see easy way pass throught env env without being too late only have one person who has ksh login shell anyway yeah are assuming that bourne shell here then bourne shell there much more important than this that isnt bourne shell here better not bourne shell there rshell push vars path validate pwd routine xsub validate pwd local pwdstats dotstats local pwd unless defined pwd return undef unless dotstats stat return undef unless pwdstats stat pwd return undef pwdstats dev dotstats dev pwdstats ino dotstats ino return undef pwd try and find nice valid pwd xpresent pwd env pwd foopwd pwd foopwd tmp mnt export pwd validate pwd foopwd validate pwd pwd unless pwd chop pwd pwd foopwd pwd foopwd tmp mnt export pwd validate pwd foopwd validate pwd pwd home pwd try find somewhere nice live the other side xunless offsite unshift stuff test pwd pwd start building the full command xforeach var vars val env var unshift stuff setenv var val some commands the other side xunshift stuff set nonomatch only are using csh build the remote command remote umask join stuff argv dev null logf remote remote remote build the arg list for the exec comm rsh luser mach csh remote xif debug print comm else exec comm rsh doesn return any indication how went over the other side but that cos aint going wait around see what happened xexit the end end file test then echo shar unpacked with wrong size chmod end echo shar end archive dev null ark isdone missing for test ark isdone then missing missing done test missing then echo you have the archive ark isdone else echo you still need unpack the following archives echo missing end shell archive exit duncan sinclair sinclair dcs gla sinclair gla dcs would the real unix operating system please stand
comp.windows.x	subscribe please subscribe mail rpicas porto inescn
comp.windows.x	has escaped article apr comp lancs julian comp lancs julian self writes wasn the shareware fee suggestion john request personal users requirement for commercial government and institutional users someone else asked whether the authors the jpeg and tiff software had given permission incorporate their code into commercial product found the following jpeg readme specifically permit and encourage the use this software the basis commercial products provided that all warranty liability claims are assumed the product vendor and the following tiff copyright permission use copy modify distribute and sell this software and its documentation for any purpose hereby granted without fee looks like that account barry margolin system manager thinking machines corp barmar think com uunet harvard think barmar
comp.windows.x	buying terminals are planning buying terminals have the article from jim morton regarding prices etc and looking for any other information that will help decide which buy the terminals will connected dec axp with ram running osf from what have found out far would best run much possible the terminal itself window manager xterm etc and that order this need ram the xterminal where ranges from depending who talk what should looking for what sort questions should asking the salespeople thanks trevor smedley smedley tuns school computer science technical university nova scotia
comp.windows.x	multiple not simultaneous server connections have requirement for dynamically closing and opening different display servers within application manner such that any time there only one display associated with the client assumming proper cleanup done during the transition should anticipate any problems kartik kartik hls com
comp.windows.x	xmtextfield truncation with lang bug article lttm linnrli news bbn com swalker bbn com susan walker writes have found situation which think bug motif but hoping really just mistake part does anyone know anything about this problem using xmtextfield and setting its xmnvalue hardcoded text string ascii kanji either via xtsetvalues xmtextsetstring the problem that when the xmtextfield displayed the text getting truncated depending the setting the environment variables lang more specifically all when they are set japanese the text gets truncated when they are set english everything works fine taking the default for xmncolumns please note that hardcoding text not done actual application just sample code make things easier running motif via hpux test program set handle bit kanji characters have remembered xtsetlanguageproc prior mrminitialize and font resources are set japanese fonts don know this matters but dialog box and textfield initially created with uil the problem does not happen with xmtext unfortunately substituting xmtextfields with xmtexts application not acceptable alternative way too much code modified while beta have small test program which illustrates the problem anyone wants best guess that either the code motif not properly allocating memory for japanese but since don have the source look just guess the problem was that textfield was improperly walking the string used the character count instead the byte count significan oops the problem has been fixed and the patch included the latest periodic patch from support services tom mcfarland tommc com
comp.windows.x	has escaped the copyright notices themselves seem making conficting restrictions not know how reconcile copyright notice copyright john bradley permission use copy and distribute its entirety for non commercial purposes hereby granted without fee provided that this license information and copyright notice appear all copies with shareware for personal use only you may use for your own amusement and you find nifty useful generally cool some value you your non deductable donation would greatly appreciated the suggested donation though course larger donations are quite welcome folks who donate more can receive real nice bound copy the manual for extra charge commercial government and institutional users must register their copies for the exceedingly reasonable price just per workstation terminal site licenses are available for those who wish run large number machines contact the author for more details strikes that the first part gives you the right use without fee the program for noncommercial purposes the info appears all copies this seems cover educational institutions despite what the rest the notice says and the first part doesn say subject the conditions outlined below chris christopher robin thewalt thewalt berkeley edu dept civil engineering these opinions are not necessarily university california berkeley shared employer
comp.windows.x	xio fatal error problem posted for friend without posting access but with mail access help anyone have client that abnormally terminated with the following message xio fatal error invalid argument server xxxxx after requests known processed with events remaining has been known occur when displaying the xsun server occurs with higher frequency when the client displays the xdomain server running domainos apollo anybody know why this may happening any suggestions would greatly appreciated reply has been set summarize the net doug leary redars software development boeing computer services dcl luey boeing com tim gentry boeing computer services gentry bcstec boeing com this posting way officially represents the opinions boeing boeing computer services possibly even the poster for that matter
comp.windows.x	image data format question posting this for friend please respond vaughn sonatech hub ucsb edu working application where are creating dither pattern and rendering window applying the stipple pattern the the following code segment almost works the window width even multiple not even multiple skews the pattern towards the right another problem whether even multiple not series vertical lines spaced pixels apart extern display dpy extern window xid extern extern int max max set resize handler dither pixels char pixels dither pattern data char bitmap data char bmp long arraymax arraymax max max char malloc arraymax bmp for arraymax pixels dither bit bmp pixel else bmp pixel off bmp stipple xcreatebitmapfromdata dpy xid max max free xclearwindow dpy xid xsetstipple dpy stipple xsetfillstyle dpy fillstippled xfillrectangle dpy xid max max xsetfillstyle dpy fillsolid suspect the answer pad the data mike vaughn sonatech
comp.windows.x	keyboard mapping and window placement questions use all reilly has say automatically handled use xlib ala xnextevent get nothing this all stems from problems with users the sun keyboard and the numlock plus various alt meta etc modifier requirements that not all says the coverage modifiers chapter volume four chap older athena editions where there about pages how specify translations capture various combinations keys buttons the xlib route uses xlookupstring and there lot coverage how that works volume one chapter you should read this understand how all the mappings work before trying anything complicated adrian nye reilly and associates
comp.windows.x	has escaped julian self julian comp lancs wrote wasn the shareware fee suggestion john then the individual make the choice whether not honour and part with money personally was his position would exactly the same thing john has obviously put lot time and effort into and why shouldn receive some money for just pennies worth keep the good work john yeah agree very impressed the kind effort that has gone into the lastest release some people are just looking for excuses gripe personally feel that the work worth much more that after seeing the kind things people get paid for
comp.windows.x	gui tools are making transition from nextstep windows trying find the best gui tool for our needs have looked several tools but they all seem basically the same each salesman will beg differ realize that there are differences but don have infinate amount time discover what they are the tools have looked far are uim designer tele use tcl interviews and suit far drawn the following conclusions the builder for interviews not very mature bad docs tele use very expensive and uses proprietary toolkit uim designer seem about the same even though designer does not have interpreter centerline need one tcl little buggy know very little about the ics builder just have the sales info due corporate agreement designer much cheeper than any other comercial product for the time spending could have bought all them well different money will have live with any shortcomings and make work this type tool seems great but noone seems talk about them the net there another news group for this suit cost too much for comercial development hoping someone out there has strong opinion least one these products thanks bruce trvalik aoa check your mind the door the band that time forgot moose aoa utc com aoa moose bbn com
comp.windows.x	has escaped alas too will have stop using brian brian glendenning national radio astronomy observatory bglenden nrao edu charlottesville
comp.windows.x	table widget causing trouble with xtquerygeometry just got bug report and fix for this exact problem from fisher iscp bellcore com greg fisher the most serious problem have identified has not been incorporated this problem occurs when the table widget geometrymanager invoked child this will work correctly the table widgets parent complies with the protocols however they not the case for some motif widgets and they ignore xtcwqueryonly then the sizing will incorrect order see this problem the following events must happen child the table widget must request new size the table widget must query its parent for new size having set xtcwqueryonly the parent must ignore the xtcwqueryonly bit and resize the table widget part the resize xmptableforgetproposedlayout called this will set table current cols and table current rows zero the table will continue setting the new size working under the assumption that working with proposed and not actual layout the end will call xmptablesaveproposedlayout this will save table cols and table rows and restore their values from table current cols and table current rows however these have already been set zero since the table widget has already been resized will not need second resize next another widget managed some ancestor the table resized this results the parent the table requesting the tables preferred size since table cols and table rows are zero this will return the preferred size the parent very likely grant this request resulting loss the whole table from the display isolated the problem proposed workaround which seems precisely correct here the new implementation xmptablenewproposedlayout which will released with the next update weeks xmp table void xmptablenewproposedlayout xmptablewidget xmptableconsidersamesize xmptableproposedcolsandrows xmptablequeryparentforresize query only resize since only made query should still need continue however motif broken that actually may already have been resized that case the proposed layout already forgotten should just quietly exit table resize status rsduetorequest xmptablemakecolsfitquerywidth xmptablemakerowsfitqueryheight xmptablegetproposedchildsize xmptablesaveproposedlayout else the resize has already been done our proposed layout would have been forgotten the process the xptable the fix identical except course for the names table void xptablenewproposedlayout xptablewidget xptableconsidersamesize xptableproposedcolsandrows xptablequeryparentforresize query only resize since only made query should still need continue however some manager widgets are broken that actually may already have been resized that case the proposed layout already forgotten should just quietly exit table resize status rsduetorequest xptablemakecolsfitquerywidth xptablemakerowsfitqueryheight xptablegetproposedchildsize xptablesaveproposedlayout else the resize has already been done our proposed layout would have been forgotten the process david smyth david jpl devvax jpl nasa gov senior software engineer not use mail yet cccp and object guru office jet propulsion lab oak grove drive pasadena that sun windows thingy what called you know its really awful motif that motif yuck
comp.windows.x	overriding default behaviour just create the window the place you want and set the program position field the normal hints property then map then assuming they have non brain dead window manager the user can say whether they want program specified positions not for tvtwm the usepposition command the tvtwmrc will this now sure that the time this message gets out our local news timewarp someone will have advised you set the user position bit the normal hints not this evil disservice your users offler the tusked crocodile god will come the night and remove your vital organs with blunt spoon you even contemplate rjc cogsci
comp.windows.x	xdm and env vars using xdm with and xview sun and sparcs running sunos prior using xdm used set path and other environment variables like manpath helppath arch etc login file with xdm the login file doesn get executed and therefore neither the olwm root window nor applications know about these variables used the displaymanager userpath resource usr lib xdm xdm config succesfully pass the path variable but having problems passing anything else tried execing home login usr lib xdm xsession but that didn help also tried using displaymanager exportlist helppath manpath arch which didn work either would appreciate any help this matter thanks advance shash shash chatterjee email fwr fin mil software phone lockheed fort worth company fax box worth
comp.windows.x	action translation table implementation hello our application requires capture keypad presses for all windows number applications are trying use action translation tables implement this have only succeeded assigning the translation table every individual widget all windows single application the calls make are included below would much more convenient could assign the translation table class widgets rather than individual widget instantiations and also accomplish for multiple applications someone could describe how this would greatly appreciated platform sun sparc motif static xtactionsrec actionstable right right middle middle left left down down bye quit static char defaulttranslations key key right key middle key left key down key bye xttranslations trans table trans table xtaddactions actionstable xtnumber actionstable trans table xtparsetranslationtable defaulttranslations widget xtcreatemanagedwidget msg xmpushbuttonwidgetclass form wargs xtoverridetranslations widget trans table
comp.windows.x	desqview and network traffic article rkloc picasso cssc syd tansu com gpatapis boyd tansu com writes article qdeck com support qdeck com technical support writes article qtk picasso cssc syd tansu com gpatapis boyd tansu com writes what sort traffic generated with the calls curious find out the required bandwidth that link must have one machine running supporting multiple users clients and require adequate response time anyone have any ideas expect the limiting factor will your server machine not the network itself give you real world example here quarterdeck have roughly people using dvx talk bunch unix boxes novell file servers and each other not too much load our ethernet with maybe concentrators you have people each segment you had badly loaded net the apps you wanted run were very network intensive you could run into some slowdowns but the biggest problem would the machine itself say you have with plenty ram and fast hard disk and network card you have people running programs off you going see some slowdowns because you now effectively mhz course dvx will attempt see tasks are idle and make sure they give their time slice but you have working programs running you know well can buy bigger and more powerful server machine because the significant drop price year after year the link want use though isdn costly and the bandwidth limited that why interest lies seeing such link can used and see what traffic goes through since don think tom always gets time read this group take the liberty responding some this you really want tom reply you should send mail support qdeck com line certainly going restrict you far more than the mbps ethernet that typically run how restrictive will depends what you run and how you run would think that couple instances some really nasty program like smoking clover would make the link useless for anyone else the other hand probably xclocks quietly updating every seconds wouldn impact too much the real world you will somewhere between these two extremes going the way personally use daily basis wouldn want have share that link with more than other people having said that you can tweak the programs being run adding calls give time slices when idle and that sort thing you could probably run people given machine before you started seeing slowdowns again this time from network bandwidth hmmm has anyone your centre monitored the traffic all are you running any standard windows programs like word what sort packets blazing through what size link you have what the average traffic flow going through your network you have few high peaks and then many low points our corporate wan unique any other the usage patterns are not very good predictors how yours will behave the only one our low bandwidth links that normally get used this way link ireland that they often use run dos text based client end client server database remotely from the dvx machine behind since the server end was always this end california faster remotely run the client via desqview and have short hop the server than running the client locally and having long hop the server warned you this tells very little about how you usage pattern will fill isdn link running word for windows remotely going itself very usage dependent let break into pieces and look tracking the mouse pointer easy and efficient translate from windows calls into popping menu little more involved and will generate some traffic restoring the screen that was covered that menu may easy and may not does the server that displaying have backing store and the server had enough memory the display can updated locally and will generate little network traffic backing store then what was being covered was solid colored rectangle space can tell your xserver draw that quite easily was full color backdrop ren stimpy may have send back the server bit bit dvx will its level best only redraw that small area but some unusual cases the entire screen may need repainted assuning screen with bits per pixel that bits that has sent worst possible case you looking about seconds reality would never this bad since the screen will always have parts that will tranlatable into higher level calls all really depends what the programs are doing you going see slowdown from bandwidth lot sooner your apps are all doing network things also what you mean network things vision using windows and other windows applications over the network were the processes are running the server and all getting are the displays wondering how good the and subsequently protocol transferring these images with calls and displaying them client machine was designed from the ground efficient across network pretty good for this programs are best dos text programs are almost good since conert them easily something like winx hybrid intercept the calls windows makes graphics driver mouse driver keyboard driver and convert them the calls windows making are way designed efficient packet switched network lot trouble convert them the highes level xlib calls can but are somewhat limited because only know what windows and its applications tell quarterdeck office systems gary rich problem resolution dept anonymous ftp site qdeck com for write pricing ordering info info qdeck com technical questions support qdeck com quarterdeck bbs
comp.windows.x	wanted diagram drawing program article roouu gdj tuegate tue lennart blade stack urc tue lennart benschop writes looking for program draw various kinds diagrams linux system must free must run standard monochrome with small screen size motif openlook etc must compile under linux with gcc most generic unix software works must produce postscript files that can include into latex documents with dvips just tell another free program that converts one the supported formats must produce drawings that are larger than the window size scrollable know several such programs idraw xfig tgif have experience with any them features would like the programs are ability draw circles arcs straight lines boxes and arrows support for both dashed and solid line styles for all these objects support for texts any size ability move copy resize rotate any part the drawing ability turn any part the drawing into library component transistor symbol composed three lines arrow and circle any aid numeric coordinates screen grid align parts the drawing less essential but fact very handy preservation connection move one part the drawing the lines that connect that part the rest the drawing stay connected ideally want the tool general and flexible that comfortable draw electronic schematics flow charts logic diagrams data flow diagrams and block diagrams with just want know which the programs offer which the features whishlist and are there any other programs how demanding are the programs with respect disk space memory and cpu usage are any the programs known work linux with monochrome the list you mentioned tgif handles everything except rotation and any size text only supports degrees rotation currently supports standard font sizes however allows arbitrary scaling the entire drawing effectively allows any font sizes but you can only have different sizes per drawing tgif takes compiled with option sparcstation was told that compiles under linux but haven tried yet works with both color and monochrome bill cheng ucla computer science department boelter hall los angeles california usa william ucla edu uunet ucbvax ucla edu william
comp.windows.x	xdm xkernel and olwm greetings have network sun workstations running sunos and openwindows these are sun that have modified run seth robertson xkernel image effectively turning them into xterminals use xdm manage the displays when had xkernel machines things worked fine but when installed more last weekend appear have found weakness with clients sparc the sparc window manager eventually getting munged let try precise the user sitting the machine that does all the actual processing for these xterminals having control his keyboard and screen yanked away when this was the department chair was kind cute poked xdm for few days and are satisfied that not fault our current theory that olwm the sun version was not meant for running multiple copies one machine which what happens the console user runs olwm and every xterminal logged has olwm running the xterminal server has anyone had any prior experience with this sort behavior can anyone shoot obvious holes this theory how about obvious gimmes and course any ideas how solve any ideas are greatly appreciated greg owen gowen forte tufts edu gowen jade tufts edu systems programmer and tufts university computer science dept personal info gcs email for explanation interested
comp.windows.x	summary virtual mouse article cas org lwv cas org larry virden writes article frolv awvi andrew cmu edu derrick brashear andrew cmu edu writes got the following today from gary risebrough and worked fine excerpts from mail apr virtual keybo ito aodc gov have openwindows keyboardcommands full openwindows virtualgrabkeys false which seems work where can find man pages about virtualgrabkeys resource doesn show openwindows man pages virtualgrabkeys not resource belongs olvwm mats larsson email mats larsson eua ericsson ellemtel telecom systems labs phone alvsjo sweden fax
comp.windows.x	malloc problem how you solve the problem when the message cannot perform malloc shows for xtcreatemanagedwidget call have the application written running decstation using athena widgets soon added codes remote procedure call the program refused work also have program working using just xlib calls with rpc executable code about and don have any idea how much memory the decstation any help will appreciated thanks man manli edu dept computer science univ houston houston
comp.windows.x	xdm configuration hello want configure our sytem mhz running bsd like unix comming with chooser menu with different machines works then connect them but the only connection works localhost indirect machine works very well the configuration starting the xdm boot time with servers specified xservers starting the server boot time with indirect localhost the chooser menu appears with the machines named xacces bye chooser machine machine broadcast the number users this machines and the load displayed correct selecting other machine than own host the server starts and nothing happens after time out the chooser menu appears again know the xdm bug but all machines running please help lars lars koeller mail uphya odie uni bielefeld universitaet bielefeld germany uphya dave hrz uni bielefeld fakultaet fuer physik phone universitaetsstr fax bielefeld telex
comp.windows.x	efficient clients looking various clients for and looking for some information about the relative efficiency different products are any notably efficient fast are any notably inefficient assume that graphics accelerator makes them significantly faster right now looking ico running xoftware for windows sitting the distinct tcp platform and not surprisingly much slower than ico running the sparc console what are the key ways improving performance for presumably windows clients also what about async solutions yes appreciate that will much slower even with bis the process installing ppp with header compression how does that compare cslip seen product called xremote ncd that promises pretty efficient but are there comparable products out there looking for efficiency for async clients what should looking addition standard ppp compression and xremote any information would greatly appreciated still taking all the information the faq but any tips about the relative efficiency various product offerings would great get the impression that discussions about speed are largely application specific but that not withstanding any comments would appreciated thanks rob rob ryan system constructs inc rryan panix com
comp.windows.x	design choice for color handling question most graphics systems have seen have drawing routines that also specify color for drawing like drawpoint color drawline color fillrectangle color with have something like xsetforeground current color xdrawpoint why split this into two functions why did designers decide not associate the color with the object being drawn and instead associate with the display being drawn joseph sirosh
comp.windows.x	has escaped article apr comp lancs julian comp lancs julian self writes wasn the shareware fee suggestion john then the individual make the choice whether not honour and part with money personally was his position would exactly the same thing john has obviously put lot time and effort into and why shouldn receive some money for just pennies worth keep the good work john the fee suggestion for individual but licensing mandatory for commercial government and institutional users wonder how many users own the system that runs michael salmon include standard disclaimer include witty saying include fancy pseudo graphics ericsson telecom stockholm
comp.windows.x	encapsulated postscript and how view eps files have image color encapsulated postscript and need view screen are there any utilities that will let convert between encapsulated postscript and plain postscript joseph sirosh
comp.windows.x	has escaped sophia inria muller mafalda inria christophe muller writes interesting look the change mind that john has had very interested indeed this against this kind changes that the gnu copyleft protecting anyway simulog will abandon were using mostly for slide shows because its loop feature that display does not have display from the wonderful imagemagick package but think will implement myself even shell script should the job and forget cheers christophe muller simulog are you the police musicians just use xloadimage instead xli ronald van loon theory there difference rvloon ruu between theory and practice dcv group utrecht the netherlands practice however there
comp.windows.x	server scanline padding question figured out the answer lies mit server ddx mfb mfbcustom brian
comp.windows.x	xdm and env vars article haji haji sun fwr fin mil writes using xdm with and xview sun and sparcs running sunos prior using xdm used set path and other environment variables like manpath helppath arch etc login file with xdm the login file doesn get executed and therefore neither the olwm root window nor applications know about these variables one usual suggestion put everything into your every time shell file instead your login only one which fair enough you only have few users who know what they doing you have several hundred users who what the books tell them though then confusing best another have your xterms run login shells but that still leaves the window manager and the things that get started from its menus with the wrong environment our alternative that instead having xdm run the client startup scripts runs the user favourite shell login shell and has then run the rest the startup scripts that way the user usual environment gets set normal and inherited everything you can find almost current copy our scripts and things contrib edinburgh environment tar available from the usual places george ross department computer science university edinburgh kings buildings mayfield road edinburgh scotland mail gdmr dcs voice fax
comp.windows.x	xvertext version released now available xvertext another day another xvertext release summary xvertext provides you with several functions draw strings any angle window previous versions were limited vertical text what new since existing bitmap fonts can magnified give reasonable fonts large sizes bounding boxes can obtained the stipple bitmap honoured font ids can cached when font names are unavailable imakefile present the demos are better including ransom note like the comp sources postscript one where can get comp sources soon export lcs mit edu contrib xvertext shar now alan richardson you don have school maths physical sciences old wise univ sussex brighton england judas priest mppa sussex syma elsewhere mppa syma sussex
comp.windows.x	help badmatch making bit win bit server trying make bit window using xcreatewindow bit pseudocolor server far know this should possible you server supports truecolor directcolor visual using sun ipc with rasterflex card running xdpyinfo gives screen dimensions pixels millimeters resolution dots per inch depths root window depth root window planes number colormaps minimum maximum default colormap number visuals default visual visual visual class pseudocolor depth planes size colormap entries red green blue masks significant bits color specification bits visual visual class truecolor depth planes size colormap entries red green blue masks xff xff xff significant bits color specification bits visual visual class directcolor depth planes size colormap entries red green blue masks xff xff xff significant bits color specification bits code looks like this xio dspptr xopendisplay null null logexit cannot connect server xdisplayname null xio scr defaultscreen xio dspptr use this screen xmatchvisualinfo xio dspptr xio scr directcolor xtern colorinfo memset setwinattrib sizeof xsetwindowattributes xio gswin xcreatewindow xio dspptr rootwindow xio dspptr xio scr inputoutput xtern colorinfo setwinattrib this results badmatch error can anyone please tell why henrik winther nielsen ccccccc basic development cccc cci europe mail hwn cci oester parkvej phone cccc hoejbjerg ccccccc denmark
comp.windows.x	design choice for color handling question article oftinnnfk cascais utexas edu sirosh utexas edu joseph sirosh writes why did designers decide not associate the color with the object being drawn and instead associate with the display being drawn the drawing attributes were bundled into drawing requests that the server drawing model was stateless this caused problems with performance and network traffic the redesign included the graphic context codify the drawing state most application designers who want draw things several different colors create for each color during initialization then pass the each drawing request for more information see scheifler and gettys article the acm transactions graphics
comp.windows.x	perfcomp visualization there any script program thelike already existing which could transform the output perfcomp huge table into nice ish diagram graph producing postscript output from perfcomp input maybe someone has already written such beast brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.windows.x	has escaped article apr ruu rvloon ruu ronald van loon writes sophia inria muller mafalda inria christophe muller writes interesting look the change mind that john has had very interested indeed this against this kind changes that the gnu copyleft protecting anyway simulog will abandon were using mostly for slide shows because its loop feature that display does not have display from the wonderful imagemagick package but think will implement myself even shell script should the job and forget too will have stop using shame really was rather nice still have objection the owner claiming money for legit work put just back the older versions simon
comp.windows.x	has escaped will there chance get the author this really superb program remove the institutional point his license statement least say except educational ones this understand that use this software either commercial governmental users should result donation its creator but the everytime rare money universities schools whatever else institutions should not restricted the situation stays and the author explicitely states that treats universities and schools institutions this context have fallback here maybe our disk capacity will soon dead when every user has copy his home dir brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.windows.x	encapsulated postscript and how view eps files have image color encapsulated postscript and need view screen several ways are available pageview which think came with our system can point ghostview with ghostscript and the new package all recommend the latter two especially you want any conversion are there any utilities that will let convert between encapsulated postscript and plain postscript not sure offhand but will attempt mail you the comp lang postscript faq which has list utilities greg owen gowen forte tufts edu gowen jade tufts edu systems programmer and tufts university computer science dept personal info gcs email for explanation interested
comp.windows.x	encyclopedia directory widgets there such document either the bookstores possible ftp site somewhere nothing really fancy just something that gives listing the available widgets and the resources that are pertinant them and what flavors motif they occur andrew page warrior poet decision and effort the archer and arrow mac consultant the difference between what are macintosh and dsp technology and what want
comp.windows.x	chars big fonts are shown partially all wrote small application which uses pixmaps copied into window show some drawings this works perfectly for all kind objects expect large fonts what happens the screen that the right half the font not shown the way create these things quite simple some aggregated code xfillrectangle disp pixs anycolor width height xdraw line rect string xcopyarea disp pixs win width height using with bos the question this bug the aix server may some ptfs did something wrong within code sorry for the cross posting but really not know what kind error juergen schietke research insitute for discrete mathematics university bonn nassestr bonn germany tel mail schietke uni bonn
comp.windows.x	extension damaged chars big fonts sorry about the garbage code the following used course xsetforeground disp pixgc backgroundcolor xfillrectangle disp pixs pixgc scr width scr height xsetforeground disp pixgc foregroundcolor xdraw line string rectangle disp pixs pixgc xcopyarea disp pixs win pixgc win width win height juergen schietke research insitute for discrete mathematics university bonn nassestr bonn tel mail schietke uni bonn
comp.windows.x	has escaped article bglenden apr colobus nrao edu bglenden colobus nrao edu brian glendenning writes alas too will have stop using brian brian glendenning national radio astronomy observatory bglenden nrao edu charlottesville says the licence that non profit organisations have the rights copy use distribute etc does that not cover nrao sure hope covers please someone let know have buy licence best regards ata mail ata etemadi blackett laboratory space and atmospheric physics group imperial college science technology and medicine prince consort road london england internet arpanet earn bitnet atae spva ata mssl ucl span spva atae msslc atae uucp usenet atae spva nsfnet relay
comp.windows.x	need patches use dev cgtwelve the good news just got two sparc the bad news that dev cgtwelve apparently not supported does anyone know patch and how can obtain either version that will enable use our sparc adthanksvance gina
comp.windows.x	summary virtual mouse regarding summary virtual mouse euamol eua ericsson mats larsson adds virtualgrabkeys not resource belongs olvwm not only that the olvwm version man page says called grabvirtualkeys boolean this resource controls whether the keys below marked involving grabs will active not this resource set false then none the bindings marked below with asterisk will ever active default value true
comp.windows.x	geometry option greetings need some help with the detail geometry specification have program that uses xlib create simple window tried hard code the location xcreatewindow but didn work also tried xsetstandardproperties xsetwmhints with luck could somebody enlighten this subject hans hans dulimarta dulimart cps msu edu pattern recognition image processing laboratory department computer science michigan state university
comp.windows.x	design choice for color handling question article oftinnnfk cascais utexas edu sirosh utexas edu joseph sirosh writes most graphics systems have seen have drawing routines that also specify color for drawing like drawpoint color drawline color fillrectangle color with have something like xsetforeground current color xdrawpoint why split this into two functions why did designers decide not associate the color with the object being drawn and instead associate with the display being drawn for flexibility anyway what you say not really true the color information associated with graphicscontext not with display and the parameter the drawing routines you need fast switch between green dotted lines and blue ones width you can make gcs for those cases and then simply xdrawline dpy win red xdrawline dpy win blue for this effect this eventually more complicated for the programmer but also much more efficient and flexible you would not include all the other parameters like line pattern with cap and joinstyle drawmode and every drawing call why for color btw stay away from xdrawpoint you don really need draw random points for image transfers there are image routines brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.windows.x	encapsulated postscript and eps plain postscript only wrapped some comments and stripped any dubious commands for compatibility you can simply save gsave showpage def include eps file here grestore restore showpage end file and this way show natural page position and size programs may use the boundingbox comment the eps file arbitrary scale rotate and translate include more complicated ways than above brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.windows.x	how can get window draw have the task program application for the first time and have some severe difficulties creating window which can draw something unfortunately some basic books the topic application programming are not available for the moment running with hpux vue and using anbd xaw what did until now initialized the intrinsics cxreating top level widget with xtappinitialize passed application class name commandwidgetclass then set the argument values for window height and width using xtsetarg and passed the toplevel widget with xtsetvalues when call xtrealizewidget get window the specified size but have idea how can draw something can anybody send some help and perhaps some basic information how use the widgets which situation useful use them and which not thanks very much advance soenke soenke voss faculty economics soenke wiwi uni bielefeld university bielefeld germany
comp.windows.x	has escaped article bglenden apr colobus nrao edu bglenden colobus nrao edu brian glendenning writes alas too will have stop using brian where following version and have been very surprise discover that the new version shareware what pitty what found the inthernet was the freeware make myself freeware and spent long time but don plain make paid use think evrybody spent some time make freeware evrybody will paid the use other freeware here will stay with and drop meunier mail meunier inf enst
comp.windows.x	encyclopedia directory widgets the only directory know that lists commercial and non commercial widgets the ics widget data book ics sells the widgets for various prices there are also some public domain widgets the delivery the ics widget databook subscription kind thing where you pay some nominal fee get with the widgets and then you can use the public domain widgets freely and selectively activate widgets which you want purchase the right use from them the nice thing about this that you can purchase whole sets widgets such those used dataviews dont know there pricing schemes but often better buy than redevelop the more complex widgets especially you only one customer distribute this the extent that know about them except that got their databook catalog and looked impressive lots widgets there dont work for ics have any widgets being sold them hope this helps you brian dealy not knowing where dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that important knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where not dylan brian dealy not knowing where dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that important knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where not dylan
comp.windows.x	compiling and xmh sco trying get compiled and then xmh and having some problems got using gcc sco file listed below does anyone have any suggestions what can add get compile bin usr local bin debug off etc usr local lib mail usr mail mailgroup mail mandir usr man manuals gen chown bin chown editor prompter remove bin tcp sendmail available change mts entry sendmail mts sendmail smtp bboards off bbdelivery off bbhome usr spool bboards off pop off options see below gcc ccoptions ansi stdc dsysv dsysv dsco svid curses lcurses ldoptions ldoptlibs lex lex sprintf int sharedlib off slibdir usr local lib oldload off ranlib off define bind only the bsd named tcp used define sockets only the system has bsd sockets tcp options atz bind dumb mhe mhrc more usr bin more options overhead shadow sockets sys sys dir options tzname whatnow jesse asher varco pruden buildings poplar ave suite memphis internet jessea vpbuild com uucp vpbuild jessea
comp.windows.x	has escaped commercial government and institutional users must register their copies for the exceedingly reasonable price just per workstation terminal site licenses are available for those who wish run large number machines contact the author for more details would have appreciated announcement the policy change dartmouth will not able run and probably going have take off line somehow missed the shareware designation the readme and didn realize that were supposed register also debate whether this with the new institutions must pay policy belongs the contrib directory export contrib means contributed strings except copyright attached pat wilson systems manager project northstar paw northstar dartmouth edu
comp.windows.x	multiple heads sparc have sparc with cgsix cards like have the server recognize the second card mknod created dev cgsix device but when brought the server the second device was ignored how setup the second card note borrow cgthree card and put cgthree and cgsix card the same sparc box the server finds the second card then set the display the second card and start second window manager worse case trade cards with someone but maybe someone out there has seen this problem already email preferred post you must thanks advance jim jim brandt hughes lan systems hughes network systems south winchester blvd suite san jose email jbrandt hns com email jbrandt hls com voice fax vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
comp.windows.x	xdm configuration article adru jpf hermes hrz uni bielefeld uphya odie uni bielefeld lars koeller writes hello want configure our sytem mhz running bsd like unix comming with chooser menu with different machines works then connect them but the only connection works localhost indirect machine works very well the configuration starting the xdm boot time with servers specified xservers starting the server boot time with indirect localhost more deleted you need start the server with indirect its name you start with indirect localhost use the loopback adress adress when try contact another host this one try answer its loopback adress not good remember that every machine has the adress the loopback network pierre verpeaux dmt semt lams
comp.windows.x	encyclopedia directory widgets forot mention the free widget foundation which maintains freely available set widgets info this group can gotten from free widgets request kazoo uiuc edu this list maintained volunteers and you may subscribe mailing list which discusses various aspects using and abusing these widgets brian brian dealy not knowing where dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that important knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where not dylan
comp.windows.x	need win popup menu package rather than write own can anyone direct package that will let create cascaded popup menus windows for reasons portability the package should not rely any toolkit other than xlib and the intrinsics something written would nice too thanks
comp.windows.x	cannot create plane window summary got several answers the most complete was from errol crary errolc tek com have just looked the server listings mit server dix window and there are several ways which you can get badmatch error even though reilly book only says borderwidth nonzero for inputonly the third edition june the reilly book vol under xcreatewindow says badmatch any invalid setting window attribute attribute besides win gravity event mask not propogate mask override redirect cursor specified for inputonly window depth non zero for inputonly parent inputoutput inputonly border width non zero for inputonly depth visual invalid for screen width height adrian nye reilly and associates
comp.windows.x	looking for drawing packages article greg greg software mitel com gregory lehman writes path wrdis gatech howland reston ans net usc utexas edu utnut torn nott uotcsi geovision software mitel com greg from greg software mitel com gregory lehman newsgroups comp windows comp windows motif subject looking for drawing packages message greg date apr gmt organization mitel kanata ontario canada lines xref wrdis comp windows comp windows motif greetings developing application that allows user interactively create edit view visual model topology their network and was wondering anyone knew any builder tools that exist simplify this task the past have used visual edge uim product develop other guis familiar with uimss general the topology will support objects and connecting links once the topology created want provide the user with capabilities support grouping zooming etc looking for some form higher abstraction other than drawing routines accomplish this specifically the zooming and grouping aspects may prove difficult and certainly time consuming have roll own suggestions greg greg software mitel com you don mention your platform but digital has custom widget neted which does exactly what you want cost nominal call your local office the widget supported variety platforms and heard rumblings porting sun etc may worth the check charlie gilley digital equipment corp
comp.windows.x	porting athena widgets xview checked the faq this first and luck need convert the tree widget for use with xview the problem the fact that xview uses their own event loop system and was wondering anyone had any tips converted source converting these pups thanks sean wipeout cmu edu
comp.windows.x	xarchie icon problems just installed the new xarchie and all works fine except our grayscale xterm the custom icons compiled into the program don work all but the terminal works fine can set the icon xbm file with twmrc but that doesn give the neat change when busy action other programs with similar actions xmail xbiff work fine the interface author george ferguson suggests might problem with the intrinsics but isn willing hack around fix himself but know zero about programming don think can find does anyone out there know obvious fix for the problem andrew andrew jaffe ajaffe oddjob uchicago edu dep astronomy and astrophysics chicago ellis ave chicago fax
comp.windows.x	xdm and env vars article haji haji sun fwr fin mil writes using xdm with and xview sun and sparcs running sunos prior using xdm used set path and other environment variables like manpath helppath arch etc login file with xdm the login file doesn get executed and therefore neither the olwm root window nor applications know about these variables you should try having xsession script home these things xdm will start your process using the system version usually usr lib xdm xsession which should check whether you have your won and change that you take copy the system one and edit note that this file requires access set gordon lack the contents this message may reflect personal opinion they are not intended reflect those employer anyone else
comp.windows.x	compiling and xmh sco jesse asher jessea com wrote trying get compiled and then xmh and having some problems got using gcc sco file listed below does anyone have any suggestions what can add get compile bin usr local bin gcc ccoptions ansi stdc dsysv dsysv dsco svid think the traditional option gcc would help personally used traditional funroll loops compile sun hope this helps gonzalo gperez dcc uchile
comp.windows.x	how make your own face easy steps will someone who can see the face included this header please reply and tell turned out okay not all too sure about viewing software hand converted this thing from sun rasterfile what pain for folks who haven the slightest went like this how make your own face easy steps scan drivers license into pcx file use wingif trim face out the license reduce half and convert bmp use paintbrush touch manually use wingif reduce half again use paintbrush touch again use wingif reduce half again and convert gif now over the unix side use snapshot convert the gif sun rasterfile use iconedit touch and convert bitmap use yes text editor manually convert the rasterfile into the uncompressed face format lots global commands and the time you done you mirror hex bytewise your sleep now over the linux side use compface convert what you see here dob eeqgbn hiby szf vvxcxsn nvhe hfu lwzygh try viewing whatever means you have available back step but right this time rick miller rick uwm edu ricxjo discus mil ricxjo muelisto send postcard get one back enposxtigu bildkarton kaj ricevos alion rick miller woods muskego wis usa
comp.windows.x	axe available have placed new release axe editor axe tar export lcs mit edu and arjuna ncl the significant change this time and the justification for the hike the major version number undo has been implemented default only the last change can undone but resource provided allow the user specify how many including unlimited levels undo information should kept also undo undo supported there truth the rumour that the next version will emaxe for those who have not encountered axe before here summary what all about axe simple use text editor for that represents significant improvement over xedit also built around the athena text widget features amongst other things multiple windows multiple buffers default menu interface optional button interface with choice and layout buttons under user control minibuffer for expert use and access external filters provision for defining keyboard macro geometry specification and resizing terms characters file selection via browser knowledge line numbers parenthesis matching regular expression searching restricted unlimited undo ability change font easy entry control codes xterm like keymap feature easy runtime setting selected preferences resources both brief and comprehensive line help server mode with cooperating client programs optional extension language using tcl optional xaw widget set compatability collection reusable widgets that embody the functionality axe have personally built and run core axe without the tcl and xaw options the following systems sun sparc sunos mit sun sparc sunos mit encore multimax umax mit dec ultrix mit mit mac iici mit but not all have been subject the same level testing have only tested the tcl and xaw options the first number ifdef sysv isms that have been fed back have been incorporated into the code and possible scandir replacement provided for those systems that not have one although axe will probably build under run time problems have been encountered the past have not bothered try this version under and have not put any effort into solving previously known problems therefore you are you very much take pot luck doesn work the only alternative try the last release version which should still around doesn have many features and uses the widget creation library wcl not only that requires old version wcl version axe was nearing completion when version wcl came out axe never got converted make use axe available anonymous ftp from export lcs mit edu and arjuna ncl initially and probably due course from several other ftp sites check your nearest using xarchie you can ftp try sending email ftpmail decwrl dec com with the word help alone your message body you will receive instructions how ftp via email jim wight newcastle department computing science university newcastle tel newcastle upon tyne united kingdom fax
comp.windows.x	pixmap standard our group interested using pixmap format for multi colored icons buttons etc that easily converted and from other format from resource files using pbmplus can easily move from xpm our other environments windows and were wondering xpm some other format under consideration used standard the consortium for would prefer use whatever will best supported along the same subject line the reason the standard pixmap not used because doesn have associated colormap and other attributes more involved just wondering why there aren editors for pixmaps out there for the original format email replies preferred thanks advance john sigler texas instruments email sigler itg com standard disclaimers here
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comp.windows.x	xcutsel xcb question want something like this date xcb xcutsel get the output the date command put into the xprimary selection unfortunately xcutsel interactive little bugger and there isn command argument tell just and not put its little window there some other command that can use like this there analog xcb that will put stuff xprimary instead cut buffer david schlotzhauer phone sas institute inc mail schlotz unx sas com
comp.windows.x	help with xcleararea could some please tell the errors ways trying update drawable this drawable happens pixmap button the problem that after the xcleararea xtdisplay usr xtwindow usr true this appears work then sprintf tmp str fun xdrawstring xtdisplay usr bmaps tmp str strlen tmp str the problem that the new info drawn but the old info still there even pass xcleararea false and see clear when redraws the new info the old info still there help please thanks randy paries rtparies turq ingr com intergraph huntsville alabama
comp.windows.x	windows extensions for perl using the usersub stuff perl you can incorporate things like curses for use perl was wondering anyone had done this with preferably motif and where could get the source for jesse asher varco pruden buildings poplar ave suite memphis internet jessea vpbuild com uucp vpbuild jessea
comp.windows.x	compiling and xmh sco article apr vpbuild com jessea com jesse asher writes trying get compiled and then xmh and having some problems got using gcc sco file listed below does anyone have any suggestions what can add get compile here the one that used sources exp sco bin usr local bin bboards etc usr local lib mail usr spool mail mailgroup mail ldoptlibs lsocket lcrypt mandir usr man gcc ccoptions traditional manuals none chown bin chown mts sendmail smtp pop debug off sharedlib off signal void sprintf int options attvibug bind dpop dumb rename sockets sys sys dir vsprintf fcntl mhe mhrc mime more usr bin more popservice pop rpaths foldprot msgprot sbackup shadow curses lcurses ltermcap ranlib off you may want use different locking style mailbox mounted over nfs use fcntl style locking also applied the following tweak sbr makedir src public sbr makedir tue dec sbr makedir tue apr include sys types include sys stat endif sys dir defined svr defined ncr include unistd endif include sys types include sys stat endif sys dir defined svr defined ncr defined sys define maxpathlen include unistd endif that took care everything but the man pages which installed hand good luck steve steve alexander lachman technology inc stevea lachman com fax sun ico laidbak stevea
comp.windows.x	desqview over tcp how reliable how implemented three reliable how does send the information from windows app over the protocol does just draw everything graphics into one window does use multiple windows and essentially work more cleverly want run word for example remotely have run separate copy windows remotely and then start word from that can word started remotely its own thanks lot ethan
comp.windows.x	none are adding motif wrapper family data display programs these programs are each written main loop with these steps use semop check semaphore and true access new data otherwise block new data comes quite often use msgop check for messages and true read them otherwise continue messages are user commands and not often update the display according latest data and messages typically have several these running windows plus data producer serving some device and setting the flag everyone blocking makes sure the device server gets run and also have main loop model that must fit into reilly vol discusses adding file watcher and also how add workprocs that are run during idle time can open our existing main loop and call workproc the problem our blocking until new data longer appropriate neither letting the program free run because others are hurt the unix select call lets you block until any several are ready want that for the main loop except not file any suggestions examples most welcome run sgi personal iris and indigo systems morris hirsch aka morris nusc navy mil
comp.windows.x	prereq public patch the file fix there the line that reads the subject line here don see file fix when got few hmmm lines putting fix made wonder has missed off the mark thank you ray stell stellr smyrna edu they call stephen the first martyr hadn lazarus the rawer deal lewis
comp.windows.x	preventing user from hitting ctrl alt bksp exit hello admin for running aix motif and xdt want prevent the user from hitting cntl alt bkspc exit try dontzap usr lib xconfig styx free software association germany great software should free software phone data
comp.windows.x	scrollbar xterm possible get xterm scrollbar come out the right side instead the left ron shenk shonkwiler georgia institute technology atlanta georgia uucp allegra amd hplabs seismo ngp gatech prism arpa prism gatech edu
comp.windows.x	using xterm display output hello writing program which forks number child processes and each the children printing things the screen quite messy one window the xterm sxxd option seems the solution opening slave windows only display output and use the following code open pty taken from stevens and manage open term successfully the problem however how write into this term please help static char pty name int pty master void int pty master void int char ptr struct stat statbuff static char ptychar pqrs static char hexdigit abcdef for ptr ptychar ptr ptr strcpy pty name dev ttyxy pty name ptr pty name stat pty name statbuff break for pty name hexdigit open pty name rdwr return return vinod email vinod wpi edu eye for eye makes the whole world blind mohandas karamchand gandhi
comp.windows.x	keyboard mapping and window placement questions article apr news mentorg com darcym fpddet mentorg com darcy mccallum writes these are two common subjects hope someone has had deal with these specific questions question deleted would like place popup that will the immediate right main window want the same coord and their right left sides touching what need ask for the coord the window manager border for the main window this should ring bell with anyone who has called xtmovewidget immediately checking the after the move and seeing that right and their next callback asking for the and seeing that now offset the border any help would most appreciated darcy darcy mccallum mentorg com have done this before but not sure used the best approach although tried several methods you have run the window heirarchy using xquerytree until you get the root window now this not simple because some window managers slap window over the root window that the same size the root window sure take that into account for further calculations calculate the position and width height offsets for each window using xgetgeometry sure take the border width into consideration remember windows border width the outside window the windows width height must adjusted accordingly all this should give you pretty good numbers for how much space the window manager using now place the new window you have use the same numbers calculate where you want place because the window manager will parent the outside where you place your window remember correctly disclaimer all this from memory and longer have the code but did get working under several window managers correctly feel free call mail for further info mcgary mike mcgary voice intellection fax lbj freeway suite arpa mcgary intellection com dallas texas uucp intellection com mcgary utexas edu
comp.windows.x	server only sun have been using hds terminal and really like what really powerful that can run the server without running window manager one can then run special client program called window manager either run motif openlook from own firmware limiting the network traffic but having home run motif openlook from some home place like sparc vms this powerful especially since can exit one window manager without killing windows and then start another manager some vms tools need special meta mouse combos that work one manager and not the other well the question sparcstation running openlook does anyone know how break apart olwm from the olwm slave program basically want run only the server and somewhere else run the window manager please respond mail well posting because the large volumes window thanks scott moody there are answers just cross references scott shuksan boeing com uunet bcstec shuksan scott
comp.windows.x	desqview over tcp how reliable how implemented article bflb kem columbia edu ethan columbia edu ethan solomita writes three reliable use all day every day maintaining our ftp site and answering mail via support qdeck com and can honestly say that the last few months never had machine down due any sort tcpip network manager instability course crashed machine quite few times purpose during beta testing and that sort thing but the tcpip portion quite stable however keep mind that dvx and the network managers are only going stable the software they sit top your underlying network kernel flakey you can expect dvx terribly stable how does send the information from windows app over the protocol does just draw everything graphics into one window does use multiple windows and essentially work more cleverly just goes window that has graphics drawn into vastly over simplify what goes just take the windows graphics api calls and translate them directly protocol unfortunately windows was not really written network aware sometimes see speed penalty when app does something stupid like sending big white bitmap erase something rather than just drawing white box fortunately that sort thing rare want run word for example remotely have run separate copy windows remotely and then start word from that can word started remotely its own you need run windows which word then runs inside you could run multiple windows programs within the one winx window and windows has ways automagically start winapps when you start windows practice not really major problem have system set that can run winx which automatically starts word full screen for windows never see any part windows but word quarterdeck office systems internet support tom bortels pricing ordering info qdeck com tech questions support qdeck com bbs fax compuserve quarterdeck anonymous ftp qdeck com leave your email address password
comp.windows.x	xdm and env vars article haji haji sun fwr fin mil writes using xdm with and xview sun and sparcs running sunos prior using xdm used set path and other environment variables like manpath helppath arch etc login file with xdm the login file doesn get executed and therefore neither the olwm root window nor applications know about these variables always use the following cshrc login then source home login endif and login setenv login don need set all environment variables cshrc but they get set login via xdm xon xrsh and hope this helps bernward bernward averwald heinrichstr dortmund voice fax mail bernward moepi open rcc think need lear jet
comp.windows.x	help building xview sparc classic can anyone help with this system sparc classic solaris gcc when try build the xview libraries xview patched with the patch from the solaris kit get the following error ndet loop shared ndet loop gcc fpcc struct return build include usr include dsvr dsysv dfuncproto dos has locale dos has mmap ndet loop xstr libxview xstr gcc fpcc struct return fpic build include usr include dsvr dsysv dfuncproto dos has locale dos has mmap shared ndet loop file included from build include xview notify from build include xview private ntfy from usr include sys ucontext parse error before sigset usr include sys ucontext warning semicolon end struct union usr include sys ucontext warning data definition has type storage class usr include sys ucontext parse error before usr include sys ucontext warning data definition has type storage class file included from build include xview private ntfy from build include xview notify parse error before build include xview notify warning data definition has type storage class file included from usr include sys user maxsig undeclared outside functions ndet loop nsig undeclared outside functions ndet loop variable ndet sigvec has initializer but incomplete type ndet loop parse error before ndet loop warning data definition has type storage class ndet loop function ndet fig sig change ndet loop nsig undeclared first use this function ndet loop each undeclared identifier reported only once ndet loop for each function appears ndet loop function ndet signal catcher ndet loop parse error before ucontext ndet loop sigset undeclared first use this function ndet loop parse error before newmask ndet loop newmask undeclared first use this function ndet loop oldmask undeclared first use this function ndet loop parse error before ndet loop warning assignment makes pointer from integer without cast ndet loop parse error before ndet loop function ndet send delayed sigs ndet loop sigset undeclared first use this function ndet loop parse error before newmask ndet loop newmask undeclared first use this function ndet loop oldmask undeclared first use this function ndet loop parse error before ndet loop top level ndet loop parse error before ndet loop storage size ndet sigvec isn known error code make fatal error command failed for target ndet loop ndet loop shared ndet loop gcc fpcc struct return build include usr include dsvr dsysv dfuncproto dos has locale dos has mmap ndet loop xstr libxview xstr gcc fpcc struct return fpic build include usr include dsvr dsysv dfuncproto dos has locale dos has mmap shared ndet loop file included from build include xview notify from build include xview private ntfy from usr include sys ucontext parse error before sigset usr include sys ucontext warning semicolon end struct union usr include sys ucontext warning data definition has type storage class usr include sys ucontext parse error before usr include sys ucontext warning data definition has type storage class file included from build include xview private ntfy from build include xview notify parse error before build include xview notify warning data definition has type storage class file included from usr include sys user maxsig undeclared outside functions ndet loop nsig undeclared outside functions ndet loop variable ndet sigvec has initializer but incomplete type ndet loop parse error before ndet loop warning data definition has type storage class ndet loop function ndet fig sig change ndet loop nsig undeclared first use this function ndet loop each undeclared identifier reported only once ndet loop for each function appears ndet loop function ndet signal catcher ndet loop parse error before ucontext ndet loop sigset undeclared first use this function ndet loop parse error before newmask ndet loop newmask undeclared first use this function ndet loop oldmask undeclared first use this function ndet loop parse error before ndet loop warning assignment makes pointer from integer without cast ndet loop parse error before ndet loop function ndet send delayed sigs ndet loop sigset undeclared first use this function ndet loop parse error before newmask ndet loop newmask undeclared first use this function ndet loop oldmask undeclared first use this function ndet loop parse error before ndet loop top level ndet loop parse error before ndet loop storage size ndet sigvec isn known error code make fatal error command failed for target ndet loop obviously most this due the problem encountered while including sys ucontext tried several approaches but can get past this point any help would greatly appreciated mahalo nui kakou henry stilmack computing systems manager perform random kindnesses netherlands canada joint astronomy centre and senseless acts beauty ohoku place hilo hps jach hawaii edu
comp.windows.x	resolution bitmapped fonts device independence recently corrected the resolution sparcstation changing usr lib xdm xservers from local usr bin dpi local usr bin dpi determined that monitor was dpi measuring the active screen area and dividing resolution however this has caused application fonts behave strangely after some research believe this caused applications requesting fonts family weight slant and pointsize believe that grabbing the first font the path with these characteristics and displaying since have only dpi and dpi fonts path the results are inaccurate have some speedo fonts but not for the family using helvetica think this incorrect the fonts should always provided the resolution the display this never seems happen unless you explicitly request fonts xres and yres this true both the scaleable and bitmapped fonts for instance the command xfd bitstream charter will invoke dpi font despite the fact that this speedo font the command xfd adobe courier will invoke dpi font dpi font depending font path despite the fact that knows display dpi and that can generate dpi font for unless applications specifies resolution appears pick stupid default this bug feature why there anything can get around this problem people have suggested that lie about resolution and specify single font path not both this would least make app consistent but like being able look rulers that appear paint application and say yup thats inch anyone have set dpi bitmapped fonts can use system info sun sparc sunos xdpyinfo version number vendor string mit consortium vendor release number screen dimensions pixels millimeters resolution dots per inch xset font path usr lib fonts misc usr lib fonts speedo usr lib fonts dpi usr lib fonts dpi thanks rbroders oracle com bob brodersen applications architect applications technology group applications division oracle corporation redwood shores
comp.windows.x	help badmatch making bit win bit server article apr cci hwn cci henrik nielsen writes trying make bit window using xcreatewindow bit pseudocolor server far know this should possible you stuff deleted xio gswin xcreatewindow xio dspptr rootwindow xio dspptr xio scr inputoutput xtern colorinfo setwinattrib this results badmatch error can anyone please tell why the colormap element setwinattrib must legitimate truecolor colormap use xcreatecolormap with the proper visual and use setwinattrib and don forget the mask and the inevitable caveat usually use widgets setting the visual and colormap resources rather than direct routines could wrong but think this the general difficulty allen barnett whose wife graciously allowed use her account
comp.windows.x	the andrew view the latest issue the andrew view newsletter the andrew consortium available the simplest way get via ftp from emsworth andrew cmu edu directory newsletters subdirectories ascii and postscript contain the newsletter those formats you have requested the past you will receive email copy you may request placed the mailing list sending your request info andrew request andrew cmu edu fred hansen
comp.windows.x	axe available have placed new release axe editor axe tar export lcs mit edu and arjuna ncl the significant change this time and the justification for the hike the major version number undo has been implemented default only the last change can undone but resource provided allow the user specify how many including unlimited levels undo information should kept also undo undo supported there truth the rumour that the next version will emaxe for those who have not encountered axe before here summary what all about axe simple use text editor for that represents significant improvement over xedit also built around the athena text widget features amongst other things multiple windows multiple buffers default menu interface optional button interface with choice and layout buttons under user control minibuffer for expert use and access external filters provision for defining keyboard macro geometry specification and resizing terms characters file selection via browser knowledge line numbers parenthesis matching regular expression searching restricted unlimited undo ability change font easy entry control codes xterm like keymap feature easy runtime setting selected preferences resources both brief and comprehensive line help server mode with cooperating client programs optional extension language using tcl optional xaw widget set compatability collection reusable widgets that embody the functionality axe have personally built and run core axe without the tcl and xaw options the following systems sun sparc sunos mit sun sparc sunos mit encore multimax umax mit dec ultrix mit mit mac iici mit but not all have been subject the same level testing have only tested the tcl and xaw options the first number ifdef sysv isms that have been fed back have been incorporated into the code and possible scandir replacement provided for those systems that not have one although axe will probably build under run time problems have been encountered the past have not bothered try this version under and have not put any effort into solving previously known problems therefore you are you very much take pot luck doesn work the only alternative try the last release version which should still around doesn have many features and uses the widget creation library wcl not only that requires old version wcl version axe was nearing completion when version wcl came out axe never got converted make use axe available anonymous ftp from export lcs mit edu and arjuna ncl initially and probably due course from several other ftp sites check your nearest using xarchie you can ftp try sending email ftpmail decwrl dec com with the word help alone your message body you will receive instructions how ftp via email jim wight newcastle department computing science university newcastle tel newcastle upon tyne united kingdom fax
comp.windows.x	widget set ported trying compile xftp which uses the widget set and having problems using motif and and seems that version the stuff was only ported are there patches out port this newer port altogether perhaps newer port xftp for use with thanks advance jesse asher varco pruden buildings poplar ave suite memphis internet jessea vpbuild com uucp vpbuild jessea
comp.windows.x	hummingbird software query hello considering buying the hummingbird windows software for windows mhz ethernet board would anyone tell they are using this package similar environment and they are happy with will connecting sun sparcstation running sun thanks very much jim ennis university central florida
comp.windows.x	none ubject subscrive please subscribe mail min stella skku
comp.windows.x	has escaped article cmu edu tgl cmu edu tom lane writes commercial there big difference between polite request for voluntary donation and commercial illegal copy this and sic our lawyers you software there then why does the documentation say commercial government and institutional users must register their copies for the exceedingly reasonable price just per workstation terminal doesn sound like voluntary donation dave system administrator penn state population research institute define enotty not typewriter
comp.windows.x	redirecting stdout stderr program does anyone know how redirect the stdout and stderr program callback function the program does not fork child process guess can use pipes can anyone help thanks deepak
comp.windows.x	wanted rolling demo creator wanted have produce rolling demonstration some window motif software does anybody know there some public domain software record playback window events similar thanks advance paul bamborough bamboroughp logica must protest captain not merry man worf sttng
comp.windows.x	netvis for xfree chad dougherty sucks case western reserve univ know you upset right now boy crd cwru edu pretend you didn say that slayer student cwru edu homer simpson bart
comp.windows.x	choosing window manager while back several months someone posted method for allowing user choose via xmenu and something else window manager interactively startup time could the original poster anyone else please email copy the method have lost the original posting thanks henry stilmack computing systems manager perform random kindnesses netherlands canada joint astronomy centre and senseless acts beauty ohoku place hilo hps jach hawaii edu
comp.windows.x	vitex rasterflex experience going purchasing one these soom for does anyone have any experience with this card positive negative comments welcome please respond immediately thanks joe joe mcguckin joe islandsw com island software oilean joe sgi com
comp.windows.x	planet does any one out there have experience with planet considering buying use sparcstation ipc this way can run mac programs from the sparc would you recommend buying this piece software and what the emulation the sparc like does give window mac does give window just the individual programs any information would greatly appreciated thanks dean institute human genetics university minnesota box umhc all you have hammer harvard street east river road you tend look every minneapolis problem nail voice maslow fax email dean lenti med umn edu
comp.windows.x	animation with xputimage article apr infodev cam dcr mail ast cam derek richardson writes new this group please bear with two years ago wrote sunview application for fast animation raster files with sunview becoming rapidly obselete finally decided rewrite everything from scratch xview put together quick test and found that xputimage considerably slower factor average than the sunview command rop which moves image data from memory pixrects canvas this was sparc ipx seems that the protocol communication slowing things down xputimage inefficient both question what the fastest way dump plane image data window can take advantage the fact that the client running the same machine the server stuck with xputimage which case might well give now all help appreciated thanks derek the fastest way use server with shared memory extension uses shared memory local server hence images don have duplicated and defaults the regular image routines either the shared mem extension not available not the localhost sriram
comp.windows.x	xcomm imakefile files installed many apps and have that many them imakefiles that have lines startingwith xcomm them when xmkmf create the makefile the makefile also has the xcomm comment lines them always have edit out these lines because the make command barfs them was wondering what these lines were for and what might doing wrong that causes the make command dislike them thanks
comp.windows.x	meta file anyone working project that involves storing application rendering display and then playing back again rather than reinvent the wheel like find file format for saving protocol software that saves and replays such session any ideas out there heard that there version xscope that will save and replay sessions willing share much the code develop back the community axel axel com
comp.windows.x	author vacation till may for all those people flaming john bradley the author vacation till may don remember maybe all should slow down and wait hear his side wrt copyrights fees etc amir katz amir matis ingr com ingr matis amir system specialist voice see technologies ltd fax boldly where one has hacked before
comp.windows.x	xview question yet another xview question there easy way detecting when user has resized frame externally way the window manager grabbing and letting the frame resize corners under olwm please let know derek derek richardson tel institute astronomy fax cambridge mail dcr mail ast cam
comp.windows.x	support for xterm there program which support xterm don like all you can copy with other windows thanks
comp.windows.x	support for xterm article changj qucdn queensu changj qucdn queensu writes there program which support xterm don like all you can copy with other windows thanks the export lcs mit edu supposedly does use another that was cleaned brian ward ward math psu edu which adds better color support and cleans lots bugs well cut paste just put export lcs mit edu beta tar dave system administrator penn state population research institute end article what next npq
comp.windows.x	author vacation till may amir matis ingr com writes for all those people flaming john bradley the author vacation till may don remember maybe all should slow down and wait hear his side wrt copyrights fees etc while have respect for john ability and integrity really regret his leaving just after major release more accurately making the release just before leaving several are having problems with and particular have issues with all the fixes that have far been made the imakefiles and without john adjudicate and everybody posting fixes that work for them chaos inevitable let hope temporary john guile skywalker brooks using his dad account
comp.windows.x	source code dear netters could you mail the source code the book advanced window application programming johnson and reichard you need any source code just ask thank you very much sincerely zeng qiyong zeng qiyong suny buffulo
comp.windows.x	has escaped given that all the source code contains explicit permission use modify the code without fee addition the shareware notice would say that the shareware notice unenforceable all you need make minor changes create derivative work which explicitly allowed under the first part the copyright notice course this would circumventing the author wishes the subject but say you not going pay him matter what you relatively safe ground with that approach fact given the internal contradictions the copyright notices guess none could ever enforced but not being lawyer can positive regardless the fees asking are not excessive and would encourage anyone who wants use the program pay them all possible even though unlikely that you have actual legal obligations pay the author would reasonable support his efforts nothing else brad brad daniels money can buy happiness daniels neosoft com guess have rent don work for neosoft and weird yenkovic don speak for employer
comp.windows.x	has escaped article sophia inria muller mafalda inria christophe muller writes anyway simulog will abandon were using mostly for slide shows because its loop feature that display does not have display from the wonderful imagemagick package but think will implement myself even shell script should the job and forget xli and xloadimage have goto flag graeme gill
comp.windows.x	intel based unix frequently asked questions faq archive name intel unix faq last modified mar note this major organization and replacement frequently asked questions about faq list this article includes answers what options have for software intel based unix system free options commercial options what xfree and where get what xfree what oss are supported what video hardware supported what about accelerated boards why doesn xfree support color vga modes what other hardware software requirements are there where can get source for xfree where can get binaries for xfree what general things should know about running xfree installation directories configuration files determining vga dot clocks and monitor modes rebuilding reconfiguring the server from the link kit what specific things should know about running xfree svr svr bsd linux mach what things should know for building xfree from source vii there anything special about building clients with xfree bsd compatibility library ansiccoptions this article does not include answers general questions since these are already covered the faq that regularly posted david lewis faq craft uunet net you have anything add change the faq just let know especially you had problem that someone else was able help you with send changes steve ecf toronto edu please put faq somewhere the subject line that mail filter will put the correct mail folder please not ask questions that are not answered the faq not have time respond these individually instead post your question the net and send the question and answer together when you get frequently asked questions about intel based unix with answers what options have for software intel based unix system free options the best option xfree which enhanced version any other version will have slower performance and will more difficult compile information how obtain xfree listed below the port the server system that was done thomas roell roell sgcs com supports wide variety svga boards there are major free versions based included mit distribution you don need patch into the mit source any more the current commercial offering from sgcs see below commercial options metro link mcnab road pompano beach fax email sales metrolink com summary qnx svr svr sco unixware lynxos desqview venix isc solaris pyramid sunos ega vga svga tiga targa mach fujistu matrox microfield graphics other motif openlook xview xie imaging extension video extension audio drivers multi media sgcs snitily graphics consulting services brookgrove lane cupertino fax email info sgcs com mips zok info summary svr svr ati ultra diamond stealth svga other motif dual headed server consensys corporation pat booker universal city phone fax email info consensys com summary consensys consensys version unix system release server support for vga svga other moolit motif clients the santa cruz operation inc box santa cruz california sco unix fax email info sco com summary odt odt sco unix server support for svga tms xga assorted local bus see sco hardware compatabilty guide for actual card vendors other motif answer software consulting box columbus ohio xlab email sales coher com summary coherent greater works with any vesa compliant video note other commercial vendors including vendors describing bundled software are welcome submit summary information summary information such the above what xfree and where get what xfree xfree enhanced version which was distributed with this release consists many bug fixes speed improvements and other enhancements here are the highlights the enhancements the speedup package from glenn lai integral part xfree selectable run time via the xconfig file some speedups require based svga and others require virtual screen width the speedups suitable the configuration are selected default with high quality board vram this can yield improvement the xstones benchmark over the packages from jim tsillas are included the default operating mode speedup not selected this mode now equivalent performance and approximately faster than support for localconn compile time selectable for server clients both this support for both svr and svr for svr with the advanced compatibility package local connections from sco xsight odt clients are supported drivers for ati and trident tvga and tvga svga chipsets refer the files readme ati and readme trident for details about the ati and trident drivers support for compressed bitmap fonts has been added thomas eberhardt code from the contrib directory export lcs mit edu type font code from mit contrib tape has been included and compile time selectable there are contributed type fonts the contrib directory export lcs mit edu new configuration method which allows the server drivers and font renderers reconfigured from both source and binary distributions integrated support for bsd mach and linux monochrome version the server which will run generic vga cards now included the following key features were added with the release xfree they were not xfree the monochrome server has been enhanced bank switching available svga memory allow virtual screens see the manual page for more information support for the hercules mono card has been added the monochrome server and with the ability support two headed server one vga and one hercules far this has only been tested svr also reported work under linux svr shared libraries tested under isc svr and support for svr there are some special considerations consider due new usl bugs see the readme svr file for more information support for mice and logitech mouseman trackman some versions these devices were not previously compatible new tutorial how develop correct video card and monitor timing data written eric raymond derived from previous documentation and lot experimentation greatly improved support for international keyboards including implementation the compose key functionality found many vendor servers see the keybd manual page for more information the accuracy with which the server detects svga pixel clocks has been improved and the timings are now stored accuracies mhz users may want consider removing existing clocks line from their xconfig file and probing using the new server many enhancements error handling and parsing the xconfig configuration file error messages are much more informative and intuitive and more validation done there are many new options that can enabled the xconfig file see the manual page for more information the format this file plus number other small things refer the changelog file the source distribution for full details also included are tutorial monitor timing eric raymond and the current mode database and sample xdm configuration david wexelblat what oss are supported xfree supports svr consensys svr microport dell esix isc mst consensys uhc svr isc linux mach bsd bsd not supported but should work the most active bsd person greg lehey grog lemis note that esix and sco are not supported yet but anyone should feel free submit patches you are interested tackling this send mail xfree physics what video hardware supported this time xfree supports the following svga chipsets tseng tseng paradise pvga western digital these are supersets the pvga and use its driver genoa gvga trident tvga tvga ati all the above are supported both color and monochrome modes with the exception the ati chipsets which are only supported color mode the monochrome server also supports generic vga cards using video memory single bank and the hercules card the only video memory supported for the monochrome server and the gvga has not been tested with more than appears that some the svga card manufacturers are going non traditional mechanisms for selecting pixel clock frequencies avoid having modify the server accommodate these schemes xfree adds support for using external program select the pixel clock this allows programs written new mechanisms are discovered refer the readme clkprog file for information how these programs work you need write one you develop such program the xfree team would interested including with future xfree releases you are purchasing new hardware for the purpose using xfree suggested that you purchase based board such the orchid prodesigner iis avoid recent diamond boards xfree will not work with them because diamond won provide programming details fact the xfree project actively not supporting new diamond products long such policies remain effect contributions code will not accepted because the potential liabilities you would like see this change tell diamond about some people have asked xfree would work with local bus eisa video cards theoretically the means communication between the cpu and the video card irrelevant xfree compatibility could isa eisa local bus what should matter the chipset the video card unfortunately the developers don have lot access eisa vlb machines this largely untested theory however have yet see any reports things not working one these buses and have several reports xfree working fine them what about accelerated boards this time there support xfree for accelerated boards like the ati ultra tiga etc this support available commercial products from sgcs and metrolink for svr and svr server available for bsd and linux contact hasty netcom com for bsd jon robots for linux beta server available for linux contact martin unc edu jon robots note these servers are not part xfree why doesn xfree support color vga modes the reason that this not supported the way vga implements the color modes color modes each byte frame buffer memory contains pixel but the color modes are implemented bit planes each byte frame buffer memory contains bit from each each pixels and there are four such planes the mit frame buffer code not designed deal with this vga handled color modes packing bit pixels into each byte the mit code could modified support this already may not sure but for the vga way doing things complete new frame buffer implementation required some beta testers are looking into this but nothing yet available from the project what other hardware software requirements are there obviously supported svga board and are required run efficiently memory should considered minimum the various binary releases take disk space depending the whether not supports shared libraries build from sources least free disk space will required although should considered comfortable lower bound where can get source for xfree source patches for the current version based from mit are available via anonymous ftp from export lcs mit edu under contrib xfree ftp physics under xfree ftp win tue under pub xfree for the rest this faq these location will called ftp refer the readme file under the specified directory for information which files you need get build your distribution where can get binaries for xfree binaries are available via anonymous ftp from ftp physics svr binaries under xfree svr ftp win tue svr binaries under pub xfree svr ferkel ucsb edu svr binaries under pub svr xfree stasi bradley edu svr binaries under pub xfree svr blancmange utexas edu svr isc binaries under pub isc ftp prz berlin svr isc binaries under pub isc xfree tsx mit edu linux binaries under pub linux packages agate berkeley edu bsd binaries under pub bsd ports xfree ftp uwm edu mach binaries under ensure that you are getting xfree some these sites may archive older releases well each binary distribution will contain readme file that describes what files you need take from the archive and which compile time option selections were made when building the distribution what general things should know about running xfree installation directories the top level installation directory specified the projectroot usr default variable config site def binaries include files and libraries are installed projectroot bin include lib this can changed when rebuilding from sources and can modified via symbolic links for those oss that support them this directory nonstandard and was chosen this way allow xfree installed alongside commercial vendor supplied implementation configuration files the xfree server reads configuration file xconfig startup the search path contents and syntax for this file are documented the server manpage which should consulted before asking questions determining vga dot clocks and monitor modes david wexelblat dwex mtgzfs att com maintains database known clock settings for vga cards and monitor settings the database installed usr lib etc modedb txt and the source tree under mit server ddx etc this database also available from him for the latest copy and kept export lcs mit edu contrib modedb which updated occasionally obtain copy this database just might have the settings you need you create new settings please send them david for inclusion the database this doesn help you the videomodes doc eric raymond file with xfree contains tutorials how come with these timings may helpful start with settings that almost work and use this description get them right when you send the information david wexelblat for inclusion the database note the old clock exe program not supported any more and completely unnecessary you need determine dot clock values for new board remove the clocks line from your xconfig file present and start the server the server will probe for clocks itself and print them out you can use these values put clocks line into your xconfig file which not necessary but will speed starting the server the future rebuilding reconfiguring the server from the link kit you have installed the server binary link kit possible reconfigure the drivers and font renderers the server this fully explained the readme file that available with the link kit what specific things should know about running xfree first all the server must installed suid root mode svr why won xterm run properly your kernel not built with the consem module you should define consem you environment otherwise xterm won run csh users should use setenv consem the esix console driver patch known cause keymapping problems with xfree recommended that this patch not installed alternatively they keymap can fixed with xmodmap svr make sure you look ftp readme isc that what you are running bsd make sure you look ftp readme bsd also separate bsd faq maintained richard murphey rich rice edu the latest version should available the file xfree bsd faq the following ftp sites agate berkeley edu pub bsd ports xfree wuarchive wustl edu mirrors bsd ports xfree grasp univ lyon pub bsd ports xfree linux you must running linux greater and have the gcc jump libraries installed make sure the binaries mono xload and xterm are setuid root your kernel doesn have tcp support compiled you have run the server the default startup configuration assumes that tcp not available change the two files usr bin startx and usr lib xdm xservers removing the argument make sure dev console either link dev tty has the major number minor number also note that dev console not owned the user running then xconsole and xterm will not permit console output redirection xdm will properly change the owner but startx won when running xdm from local you will need provide with tty for example xdm dev console for more detailed information please read the file readme present with the distribution tsx mit edu mach make sure you look ftp readme mach what things should know for building xfree from source this section has been removed from the faq since fully explained ftp readme and the specific readmes please look those files for information building xfree vii there anything special about building clients with xfree bsd compatibility library lot clients make use bsd functions like bcopy etc the default configuration files are set link with libxbsd which contains emulation for bcopy bzero bcmp ffs random seed better way providing the functions include xfuncs source files that call them xfuncs provides macro definitions for these terms the sysv mem functions you are linking with vendor supplied library which calls some these functions then you should link with libxbsd ansiccoptions this something that was added allow developer get rid the ansi ness defined the default ccoptions without having rewrite the entire ccoptions line for example with stock mit you see something like ccoptions ansi fwritable strings and get rid the ansi ness the developer would have put ccoptions fwritable strings his imakefile with this change you would see default ansiccoptions ansi ccoptions fwritable strings and all the developer would have put the imakefile ansiccoptions get rid the ansi ness many clients will die horrible death with ansi the effect even more dramatic practice because ccoptions actually quite complex the other issue that one must add ansiccoptions ansiccoptions passcdebugflags definition xfree contact information ongoing development planning and support coordinated the xfree core team this time the core team consists the original gang four david dawes dawes physics glenn lai glenn utexas edu jim tsillas jtsilla damon ccs northeastern edu david wexelblat dwex mtgzfs att com those supporting non sysv operating systems robert baron robert baron ernst mach cmu edu mach rich murphey rich rice edu bsd orest zborowski obz kodak com linux mail sent xfree physics will reach all the core team thanks all the people who already sent corrections additions especially david wexelblat one the major contributors updates steve kotsopoulos eng mail steve ecf toronto edu systems analyst bitnet steve ecf utoronto bitnet engineering computing facility uucp uunet utai ecf steve university toronto phone
comp.windows.x	open look gui frequently asked questions frequently asked questions about the open look graphical user interface your question isn here please try least man openwin man xnews man xview and looking the appropriate manuals listed the bibliography below before posting the comp windows open look comp windows alt toolkits xview newsgroups and their corresponding mailing lists special notes have not updated this faq for the recently announced openwindows due ship later this year yes sun moving motif along with all cose but the motif which they move will new motif with some the open look features added yes openwindows will use dps instead news news dead this means tnt dead too xview and olit will supported but probably not enhanced after the next release don know there will source release xview not the cose environment will include least some sun deskset ported motif look for calendar manager and mailtool least yes the new mailtool will mime compliant frequently asked questions for are posted comp windows monthly this version revision last posted version contents and trn you can use control the next topic subject terminology open look openwindows xview olit motif subject window managers olwm olvwm subject openwindows terminals and other displays subject configuration files getting started with openwindows subject key bindings cut and paste subject applications finding out subject deskset calendar manager etc subject trouble shooting strange error messages subject trouble shooting won let type subject trouble shooting not authorized use display subject trouble shooting other common problems subject trouble shooting xview problems subject fonts subject environment variables subject where can get ftp implementations etc subject bibliography books manuals journals papers beer mats subject getting this file revision history recent changes subject terminology open look openwindows xview olit moolit motif what open look open look specification graphical user interface gui gui determines the look and feel system the shape windows buttons and scroll bars how you resize things how you edit files etc the open look gui specified developed and maintained jointly sun microsystems and usl see also bibliography what openwindows openwindows windowing environment that conforms the open look graphical user interface specifications compatible with the window system from mit well currently sun news and sunview you can intermix programs written for any those systems comes from sun and also with system release from certain vendors openwindows sometimes also called openwin xnews after the program used start and the main executable itself respectively should not called windows open look openlook these terms are either wrong apply something else commerical openwindows source licence costs about for the server plus about for deskset and another for tooltalk the current versions openwindows for various platforms are sunos sun solaris sunos sparc solaris sunos sparc see also mixing and openwindows where can get what are olit xview and tnt these are all toolkits for programmers use developing programs that conform the open look specifications see the bibliography for documentation the individual toolkits here brief summary olit was open look intrinsics toolkit for the window system used widget set and was probably the easiest for people who were already programmers learn you could buy the source from although you didn get the same version tht sun ship sun includes the olit library openwindows also often included system release was written the release olit openwindows was olit olit support passed usl then division now owned novell who replaced with moolit note that because the nature subclassing you will probably want need olit source order develop large application anything else that uses subclasses see the proceedings the technical conference xview sun toolkit for written xview similar programmer interface sunview there even shell script help migrate source code from sunview xview xview often said the easiest toolkit learn you are not familiar with windows the xview toolkit included openwindows and full source available anonymous ftp from export lcs mit edu and elsewhere the current version xview from sun despite rumours the contrary some even from within sun the xview toolkit not about dropped sun xview will included the next release openwindows unlike news the other hand the xview toolkit not likely receive much attention from sun the future olit the news toolkit tnt was object oriented programming system based the postscript language and news tnt implements many the open look interface components required build the user interface application currently included openwindows the current version tnt from sun release contains some incompatibilities with tnt and tnt but sun are committed supporting the api least until they stop news support some time later this year and replace with display postscript wail you might ask what committed means this context the answer seems that means absolutely nothing sun currently asserts that committed olit however the user interface toolkit uit consists object oriented class library layered top xview and tool generate code from devguide gil files the uit also includes features that simplify event management and the use postscript and color said compatible with openwindows and and presumably since the release mentions that works solaris uit not official sun supported product but ongoing project various people within sun can found export lcs mit edu the mit contrib directory uitv tar use binary mode where does motif fit doesn motif alternative graphical user interface that being developed osf has look and feel reminiscent microsoft windows and the presentation manager there are non commercial motif toolkits available although the motif source sold reasonably cheaply osf although motif currently available more platforms than openwindows the open look gui almost certainly used many more machines simply because sun and sysvr have such large installed base sun ware volume contains roadmap for improving motif applications converting them olit there are also notes the periodic table olit demo openwinhome demo olittable what moolit moolit version olit from usl that lets users choose between motif and open look feel run time will part system release contact joanne newbauer usl com what about that display postscript thing sun and adobe have agreed that sun will include the dps extension the next release openwindows dps essentially badly designed hack top slow level postscript interpreter intended give very small subset the functionality news whilst simultaneously being harder use understand the only real advantage has over news that the manual much smaller being generally less complete dps also available more kinds machine performance our not suitable for interactive work what will like the sparcstation remains seen note that whereas news fonts are shared both subsystems the dps extension does not make type postscript fonts available ordinary programs not like atm this regard there least one third party version which does make fonts available however subject window managers olwm olvwm what are olwm and olvwm they are window managers window manager the part the window system that responsible for deciding how lay out windows the screen and for managing the user interaction with the windows olwm the standard open look window manager included with all the openwindows implementations and you can also get the source ftp since sun donated olvwm version olwm that manages virtual desktop hence the its name shows little map the screen with the currently displayed area represented little rectangle you can move around dragging the rectangle with the arrow keys this lets you run several clients applications and move the display around from one the other olvwm was derived from the openwindows olwm scott oaks you need have xview compile get olvwm from ftp site such export lcs mit edu the contrib directory there are three patches can use favorite window manager with openwindows instead olwm yes you use twm for example mwm you won able use the pin and unpin feature olwm and you probably won see the footers some windows use display certain messages you use twm you want use the delete function unpin menus and get rid programs that don have quit button when not run under olwm for twm put this your home twmrc lefttitlebutton target delete where target icon from usr include bitmaps alternatively try add menu each window managed twm tvtwm lefttitlebutton menu menu menu menu menu quit delete for mwm you can double click the menu icon the left the title bar dismiss pop window told see the manual page for your window manager twm etc subject openwindows terminals and other displays can use olwm and olvwm without openwindows terminal the openwindows xnews server combines sunview news postscript and this means that can run programs compiled for any those systems unfortunately means that some openwindows programs need either news sunview support and thus won run terminal this includes pageview particular you can use olwm olvwm see above terminal non open windows display and most open look clients olit xview ones will work perfectly well you may find that you get complaints about fonts not being found see the fonts section below you are running the window manager built ncd terminal you may have problems with input focus setting input true the terminal xdefault file usr lib xdm may may not help subject configuration files getting started with openwindows what configuration files need know about xinitrc and xsessionrc the first time you run openwindows xinitrc file will created your login directory home already exists you might have edit somewhat simplest move and any other old files you have another directory and then merge the old and new files your site uses xdm you should use xsession instead xinitrc since xdm doesn look your xinitrc file openwin init openwin menu and openwin sys these are optional files you can create your home directory depending which version olwm olvwm you use look openwinhome lib normally usr openwin lib for these files without the leading and copy any you want change you may need edit your xinitrc get them recognized you are not terminal you will want run console window such cmdtool shelltool xterm chuck musciano contool program that system output will directed there instead writing over your screen note that openwin sys not executed unless you edit xinitrc xdefaults you can put windows resource specifications here particular good idea include least openwindows focuslenience true input true these allow non icccm compliant programs receive input even they forget ask for props the program that runs when you select properties from the default root menu under olwm olvwm writes your choices into xdefaults don put comments xdefaults since props deletes them startup this the news user profile file read openwindows actually xnews startup this documented the news programming manual near the back the most useful thing put here postscript code change the keyboard repeat rate although you must very careful since syntax error the postscript means that xnews will either not start all will get broken strange ways the news manual gives code that both incorrect and insufficient warning things this file rarely work both openwindows and note that the mouse speed best set your xinitrc with xset see the man page for xset man xset and xset help for more information here what home startup should look like you want delay about third second microseconds and repeat rate twenty keys per second microseconds between repeats for openwindows you have experiment bit because the repeattime the delay between keys sent and thus doesn include the time process each key which probably higher than your supersparc gti injection again this for openwindows don want the demos see xxxii news toolkit reference manual includedemos false def userprofile begin keyrepeatthresh timeval storetimeval def keyrepeattime timeval storetimeval def note and differ greatly end you must also have user file the same directory like this news findpackage beginpackage tntcore findpackage beginpackage tnt findpackage beginpackage classrepeatkeys pop force repeat autoload endpackage endpackage endpackage you change these parameters you can test them without restarting the openwindows server like this psh startup welcome news version psh welcome news version classinit classrepeatkeys send now press control you can also either these two files startup and user make the root window retained that postscript drawing the background won erased when you move windows frambuffer retained true put will this note that this may increase the amount memory used the news server xnews dramatically see also trouble shooting won let type trouble shooting there easy way edit xdefaults environment variables how can configure open look for left handed mouse and keyboard you can use xmodmap change the mouse buttons but prepared for one two occasional surprises see also man xview for list keybindings you can change least for xview programs with openwindows you can use defaultsedit set the mouse mappings and then let sunview handle them the status returned svenv should tell you whether your server running under sunview not put this your xinitrc eval svenv env then xmodmap pointer input from defaults else xmodmap pointer how can get the screen blank when the system idle run screenblank from etc local you can boring but effective screen saver see man screenblank under solaris you need copy screenblank from older system not supplied then add new file etc make the system run screenblank automatically subject key bindings cut and paste how cut and paste between xterm and openwindows programs from xterm textedit say select the text you want copy dragging the select mouse button xterm press copy the xterm this key meta the reilly xview manual gets this wrong move the textedit window and press paste meta this doesn work see trouble shooting cut and paste the other way from textedit xterm select the text textedit need use copy move the xterm window and press adjust the middle mouse button you can also use the copy cut and paste buttons copy paste boring what short cuts are available quick copy within textedit mailtool etc click select get text caret where you want the copied text press and hold down the paste cut button select the text you want copy move you see that underlined crossed out appropriate the jed demo goes grey let the paste cut button the text you underlined crossed out appears the insert caret drag and drop move selection select the text you want copy move dragging multiple clicking the select adjust mouse button put the mouse pointer anywhere within the selection press and hold down down the select mouse button and move the mouse pointer little the right you see the cursor changes the first letters the text some other icon still holding select down move the mouse over the point where you want drop the text you may see the mouse pointer change rifle sight target show that drop things here let select and the text moved this works text fields dialogue boxes well text subwindows drag and drop copy selection this the same using drag and drop move selection except that you must hold the control key down well the select mouse button what are the default key bindings textedit and elsewhere see the man page for textedit for some them general the editing moving commands the opposite direction when shifted ctrl deletes word and ctrl deletes the word the right the insert point meta include file meta find selection forward backward ctrl start line ctrl back word ctrl end line ctrl forward word ctrl delete word ctrl delete start end line ctrl return move end start document see the reilly xview reference manual for list some the default keys see also the olwm olvwm manual page what can put ttysrc where documented see the manual page for shelltool subject applications finding out contact sunsoft sun and ask for the catalyst open look guide which lists over pages applications and also the huge catalyst listing products for suns updated six monthly sun free cdware roms each contain demo versions several popular open look applications often you can simply contact the vendor concerned have the license upgraded from demo and receive the full product documentation sunpics produces rom for newsprint users printer pallate which contains newsprint drivers for variety printers and plotters well scaleable fonts that you can license there separate faq posting comp windows open look that lists number free and commercial aplications mail lee com for copy including open look application list the subject for faster reply subject deskset mailtool calendar manager etc there tty based interface calendar manager yes delete insert and lookup these all have manual pages man delete doesn work gives strange messages see under trouble shooting strange error messages below how can arrange have signature included outgoing mail the best way usr lib textswrc chmod textswrc edit textswrc use textedit whatever you prefer add the follwing key right filter cat signature you might need change home now pressing will insert your signature file subject fonts does openwindows support type postscript fonts yes under either solaris not sure which not yet other words you have framemaker there utility import them told the fonts supplied with openwindows are fully hinted though and comparing them the microsoft windows and apple truetype fonts interesting the font format described publication from the sun openfonts group listed the bibliography below documentation the unbundled version typescaler also available from sun openfonts you can buy fonts from sunpics monotype linotype urw and probably other major foundries sunpics newsprint software supports type fonts improving font rendering time although the sun type renderer typescaler pretty fast not fast loading bitmap you can pre generate bitmap fonts for sizes that you use lot and you can also alter and access the font cache parameters you have lot memory you might want increase the font cache size psh welcome news version psh will say this you currentfontmem type this line and here whai server was using kbytes setfontmem just check currentfontmem see the news programmer guide you need say psh that the postscript packages are loaded see the psh man page making bitmap fonts for faster startup mkdir home myfonts home myfonts makeafb openwinhome lib fonts bembo creating bembo afb convertfont bembo afb bembo afb bembo chars parameter greater than number characters supplied bembo afb bembo synonyms list bldfamily bembo bembo encoding latin cat compat list such file directory xset pwd xset rehash you want the server see your new font directory every time add this directory your fontpath environment variable one your start files login profile converting between font formats convertfont etc you can also use folio fonts with server converting them bitmap bdf format first your licence forbids you from using the fonts another machine and unless you have newsprint you shouldn use them for printing having said all that you can use makeafb and convertfont generate bdf files that you can compile with bdftosnf bdftopcf use mftobdf from the seetex distribution convert tex fonts bdf format which you can then use with either oenwindows you can also use der mouse getbdf get bdf fonts from running display server ftp larry mcrcim mcgill edu getbdf xview olit fonts dpi there aren any more precisely the various text fonts such lucida typewriter sans are available dpi and fact are scalable under openwindows the glyph fonts are bitmaps and don scale very well subject trouble shooting strange error messages manual entry for lookup man doesn seem find openwindows commands even though you are running openwindows try setting the manpath environment variable manpath openwinhome share man usr man export manpath setenv manpath openwinhome share man usr man for csh users openwinhome should usr openwin most systems window window creation failed get new window base frame not passed parent window environment cannot create base frame process aborted these messages all come from sunview programs sunview was earlier windowing system for suns and was not networked some the sunview programs are still around usr bin and have names that are the same their openwindows counterparts you almost certainly want run the programs openwinhome instead set your path that openwinhome bin and openwin bin xview for openwindows come before bin usr bin they the same you get the sunview versions mailtool cmdtool shelltool etc memory fault core dumped you get this from the binder binder vanishes suddenly get the following patches binder cetables tooltalk trouble compiling xmu olit programs get wmshellwidgetclass you are using openwindows based contact your local sun office and request the following patches openwindows libxt jumbo patch openwindows undefined symbols when using shared libxmu you can install the patch workaround add get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass the link line alternative add assert nodefinitions cflags your makefile even imake tmpl subject trouble shooting won let type when try type into some programs just get beeps nothing happens good idea include least openwindows focuslenience true input true your xdefaults file these allow non icccm compliant programs receive input even they forget ask for see the next item for editing xdefaults subject trouble shooting cut and paste not working can paste from xterm xview including sun deskset programs under openwindows you need add the following either your home xdefaults file openwinhome lib app defaults xterm instead xterm translations override key select set clipboard key insert selection clipboard you must not move the mouse between ending the selection and pressing the paste key under openwindows this already the app defaults file isn working check that xfilesearchpath set usr openwin lib and isn either set copy merge the above lines from openwinhome lib app defaults xterm into usr lib app defaults xterm see also environment variables this version automatically puts each xterm selection onto the clipboard xterm translations override ctrl meta btn insert selection primary cut buffer ctrl meta btnup select end primary cut buffer clipboard keypress insert selection clipboard note sure that the the very end the line there must following spaces and any signs showing that this faq file was altered must also removed you are using you may find that adding the lines key start extend select end primary clipboard cut buffer keyrelease kill selection before the keypress line will make cut work cut key you alter home xdefaults instead you must use what calls more specific resource name xterm translations will can paste from xview including sun deskset programs xterm you don have the sun keys the left your keyboard you can use meta meta and meta for cut coy and paste respectively you can change the keys adding the following two lines your xdefaults file edited you wish the values shown here are the defaults openwindows keyboardcommand copy meta openwindows keyboardcommand paste meta lists resources are the manual page for xview and also the thinnish blue book companion volume xview reference manual from reilly and also the olwm and olvwm manual pages always get the same piece text when press paste meta remove the file tmp textsw shelf and see that helps see also the next item cut copy and paste don work all openwindows only dear use xuaww grep check that sel svc running and that either you root started depending whether you started openwindows with openwin logging through xdm not start dies check that there tmp sel svc before restarting you may need root remove you can reboot your workstation check that there space tmp use tmp and also see there are lot files there with names like tmp tty txt there are several hundred them cut and paste may take long that times out quit any deskset tools such mailtool filemgr and calendar start terminal emulator and remove and tmp tty txt and tmp text files that are still there simplest quit openwin and start again after doing that cut and paste was broken but starts working again you can just carry note that files tmp not owned you might use another worker comrade don remove those without checking first subject trouble shooting not authorized use display you get error messages that look like xlib connection refused server xlib internal error during connection authorization check error can open display try the machine running openwindows xhost machine where machine the computer which you ran the command that failed you want let other users run programs the same machine you using your display you will have type the bizarre looking xhost hostname xhost happyboy happyboy the name your workstation this lets any user happyboy access your display with openwindows you can also use xauth and the programmer guide describes how this chapter this more secure also check the man page for fbtab stop other users accessing the framebuffer directly also note that there sun patch for openwindows under sunos fix serious security problem available through your local sun answer center well through anonymous ftp from ftp net system sun dist fix patchid filename checksum loadmodule tar terminal there may setup menu that lets you change disable the list hosts that can access the display you start getting this message after you been logged overnight there might cron job that removing the unix sockets tmp that are used communicate with the server when display doesn have hostname before the empty have the system administrator change the cron script skip sockets subject trouble shooting other common problems get console error messages screen and they don away sun refresh makes the messages vanish but new ones come along later you need run xterm from your xinitrc start one the background and then choose save workspace from the workspace utilities menu better still pick contool and run that get from export lcs mit edu the contrib directory will monitor the console and open flash its icon beep when message appears very easy configure refresh from the workspace utilities menu doesn make the messages away sun with frame buffer has two screens you can move the mouse off the right hand default edge the screen and onto whole new but monochrome display called see the man page for openwin have shell script that checks for this and there dev cgfour does openwin dev dev cgfour dev dev bwtwo you are running openwindows you might need add this your xinitrc other startup file eval svenv display unix env olvwm display unix later releases olwm and olvwm this automatically you can also run switcher get rid the messages also see the note about contool above there easy way editing xdefaults use props which appears the default root menu properties this starts props property editor which will write your xdefaults after removing comments then applies any changes keep comments using comment instead for example comment font palatino italic how get the file manager use emacs instead textedit set the default editor exec emacs font lucidasanstypewriter file you can change the font you prefer smaller one how run openwindows inverse video this tends not work under openwindows with opwnwindows there are various ways including using and options you using openwindows sun probably the best you can short upgrading the workstation sparc use xterm instead cmdtool why don flat check boxes work known bug may make guide output dump core you use these workaround edit the guide output only guide output that broken not the actual check box code this applies only versions devguide before devguide you still using ancient devguide you should upgrade soon possible the new one fantastic when leave openwindows screen goes blank mouse cursor stays the screen try running clear colormap this helps put the last line the shell script you use start openwindows openwin when use snapshot the system crashes the server hangs something this was bug related some systems only the only work round was use some other screen dump program such xwd xgrabsc why have some function keys stopped working keys and changed from sunf and sunf sunxk and sunxk respectively openwindows applications must recompiled you might able use xmodmap the public domain xkeycaps program change your keyboard layout back again when type shelltool cmdtool textedit get the sunview version see under trouble shooting strange error messages below see also next item mixing and openwindows see also next item note that openwindows includes the core distribution patch level but not the contrib directory these notes apply openwindows although you could also the same sort thing with openwindows and install the libraries usr lib you can intermix openwindows and they all compatible this respect put the binaries for example usr bin put usr bin last your path that you get openwindows versions programs instead ones where appropriate although this matter preference any event put the openwindows bin directory first see the preceding item for more details that you have bin usr bin they the same directory sunos earlier your path than openwinhome bin xview you get sunview programs instead openwindows ones set library path that usr openwin lib last after the library directory this doesn matter with openwindows but with older versions you get error messages from programs you don this the messages are generally harmless see next item although xdm core dumps this isn right set openwinhome the directory containing openwindows isn usr openwin see also environment variables especially xfilesearchpath get error messages screen about libx not found set library path usr openwin you also use use usr lib usr lib usr openwin lib you put this shell script your profile use openwinhome usr openwin lib instead usr openwin this for bin for csh different launch filemgr and get map heap error dev zero your system needs patched look openwinhome lib ospatches and install the patch why doesn answerbook run for you must running openwindows use answerbook won run under terminal anything else because uses news draw the postscript text and pictures you are using openwindows you need use the openwindows compatible navigator called navigator the answerbook rom all answerbook users are using openwindows you can replace navigator wih navigator altogether rename the old one first satisfy your sense paranoia the navigator binary also ware vol note that the data files are postscript you can look them with postsript viewer why aren there any fish realxfishdb fixed version realxfishdb available ftp from ftp eng auburn edu pub realxfishdb why the properties choice disabled the window menu isn implemented yet many programs respond the properties key though have pop menu with properties file completion the shell broken cmdtool sadly true but use shelltool xterm instead and fine also works you run command tool remote machine fixed openwindows shipped with solaris when run olit programs some the widgets are red release olit added mouseless operation action widgets can selected via the keyboard the currently selected item highlighted red the red stain show that has the input focus disable most places add this your home xdefaults file traversalon off textedit traversalon textfield traversalon you can change the color using for example inputfocuscolor grey input focuscolor green list inputfocuscolor your background color see the man page resources the start the olit widget set reference manual included the openwindows programmer documentation meanwhile contact your distributor and ask for patch the olit cte jumbo patch when run several programs the colors the screen all change when move into different window colormap flashing this becasue most hardware can only display few colors time however you can minimise the effect with the following procedure start all the applications with colors that you wish reserve run cmap compact save create the owcolors file put the line cmap compact init near the start your start file xinitrc exit and then restart the window system cmap compact init will push those colors owcolors the end the colormap and reserves them also note that control locks the colors the current window and control unlocks them this described the olwm manual page pageiew uses the wrong colors makes the colormap flash see above this problem was reported people for some reason running the motif window manager mwm with openwindows try running pageview like this openwinhome bin reservecolors svmono openwinhome bin pageview openwinhome bin reservecolors discard xdm breaks things command tool doesn like being run without unix controlling terminal use etc setsid start your command tools and all will well sunview applications may need run with svenv svenv exec usr bin traffic because xdm won set the necessary environment variables note that the mit xdm starts the server root which security hole for openwindows use the openwindows xdm aware that your users can access files and start unix processes ass root function keys and stopped working openwindows the names keysyms for these keys was changed sunxk and sunxk code which uses them should recompiled you might able get away with xmodmap keysym sunxk sunf subject trouble shooting xview problems this section here only until xview faq appears which has been promised but hasn reached here note that there also usenet newsgroup alt toolkits xview although doesn sem have very wide distribution and has triffic the order one two articles per month you should also look the faq comp windows how set the font individual scrolling list items panel list font takes int row number and opaque font handle panel list fonts take null terminated list opaque font handles there easy way make entire list fixed width font you have make sure that you always specify panel list font when you insert new row into that list write convenience function insert row list row string that hides the nasty bits how keep xview pop window displayed after button pressed the button callback set button panel notify status error null this will keep the window visible you might also need investigate the menu notify status attribute how make xview button look pressed call panel begin preview and panel cancel preview these are documented the xview source openwindows imake doesn work properly here greg earle patch applied openwinhome note that you should edit lib config sun afterwards get osname and osminorversion right minorversion sunos for example have edited the patch little any bugs are mine lee com bin xmkmf orig wed sep bin xmkmf tue aug elif openwinhome then args duseinstalled openwinhome lib config else elif openwinhome then args openwinhome lib config duseinstalled dxcomm else lib config site def orig wed sep lib config site def tue aug define bindir openwinhome bin define libdir openwinhome lib define incroot openwinhome share include define installnonexecfile file dest install file install instdatflags file dest define nullparameter note the patch new but have not marked each line with liam subject environment variables environment variables and plausible values use this list doesn take into account any local changes that you might have made course this list for openwindows differences for openwindows are marked and added some comments for users and too display the name the windows display use the local machine the one actually running xnews some machines for second monochrome screen machine running unix other machines you may need xhost other machine let programs other machines use your display see also under trouble shooting and see the section xauth the openwindows version programmer guide see also console messages under trouble shooting fontpath where xnews searches for fonts usr openwin lib fonts you can also use xset dir add directory the font path but you may have xset rehash afterwards this fine under openwindows but many servers have font problems helppath where xview looks when you press the help key usr openwin lib locale usr openwin lib help sunos with openwindows omit the first entry which for sites using local other than usa library path where look find shared libraries usr lib usr lib usr openwin lib usr arch the usr arch lib entry only needed you use programs openwinhome where openwindows lives usr openwin keyboard mouse serial devices use instead the console don set these for normal use dev kbd and dev mouse path where the shell searches for programs run openwinhome bin openwinhome bin xview usr local bin home bin arch usr ucb usr bin usr bin usr hosts you will certainly want change this example there openwinhome bin xview openwindows xfilesearchpath where programs look for app defaults files usr openwin lib this set automatically openwin openwindows you might want use usr lib perhaps both separated with for example for users xfilesearchpath openwinhome lib usr lib export xfilesearchpath you use you might instead want usr lib usr lib usr lib usr lib usr lib usr lib openwinhome lib put all this one line though with spaces together with the following lib xinitrc xrdb merge end xrdb customization end xrdb xrdb merge end xrdb ifdef color customization color endif end xrdb you automatically get color oclock editres bitmap xcalc and xlogo since they use the customization resource appearing the xfilesearchpath see oclock according rainer sinkwitz sinkwitz ifi unizh subject where can get ftp implementations etc xview available anonymous ftp from export lcs mit edu and elsewhere moolit can bought from source form openwindows can obtained from sun you can get the source from interactive systems inc also included some vendors system release implementations although that not always the latest version the current release openwindows from sun for supported architectures for the sun series frozen openwindows note that sun includes openwindows with sunos and also included the windowing system for solaris there are said sun over ports openwindows either available now progress unfortunately none them seem available from anywhere contact anthony ovi com for more information subject bibliography books manuals journals papers beer mats the open look graphical interface documented two books sun microsystems inc open look graphical user interface application style guidelines addison wesley and sun microsystems inc open look graphical user interface functional specification addison wesley the main documentation for the window system comes from reilly associates about nine ten volumes the most useful for open look users are volume xlib programming manual volume xlib reference manual volume window system user guide open look edition volume should appear later this year volume xview programmer manual dan heller make sure you get the edition for xview companion volume xview reference manual thomas van raalte the companion volume expanded version the attribute summary from the previous edition the xview programming manual together with other reference information that practice you have buy both books reilly also have thinnish orange book the differences between and olit programmers will also want the books volumes and there new big fat green vol updated for journal the resource may also interest reilly associates morris street suita sebastopol the usa and canada only fax email nuts ora com uunet ora nuts for other distributors mail fax call some the reilly examples are available fro ftp from export lcs mit edu the contrib oreilly directory the system release documentation from prentice hall may also include section openwindows david miller describes programming with olit his open look unix press nabajyoti brkakati gives excellent introduction and olit programming well setting and using and openwindows unix desktop guide open look sams isbn you can get the examples from this book export lcs mit edu contrib naba olguide examples tar also about using olit and particular the window system programming and applications with open look edition doug young and john pew prentice hall isbn there are also widgets and motif ugh versions this book the example source code this book can obtained ftp from export lcs mit edu file contrib young pew olit there introduction xview writing applications for sun systems vol guide for macintosh programmers sun microsystems pub addison wesley learn more about the news and postscript languages see the news book springer verlag sadly little out date postscript language reference manual second edition adobe systems inc addison wesley the red book note that openwindows level postscript implementation with certain level features such composite fonts some degree postscript language tutorial and cookbook adobe systems inc addison wesley the blue book there least one book using solaris sunos sun also supplies large amount documentation with openwindows although you may have order separately here what have they are each little over square wider than paper and vary from about about thick they say user guide programmer guide the front the user manuals have red stripe the bottom and the programmer ones have green stripe openwindows version release manual openwindows version installation and start guide openwindows version deskset reference guide openwindows version user guide desktop integration guide also available bookstores programmer guide openwindows version reference manual the man pages the news toolkit reference manual news programming guide olit widget set reference manual xview reference manual converting sunview applications font format specification order separately there are also some other sets documentation including the typescaler documentation from the openfonts group for example there doesn seem complete list anywhere tooltalk setup and administration guide sunsoft tooltalk programmer guide sunsoft there might documentation about the link manager somewhere too includes several large thorny bushes worth paper with olit sun answerbook rom contains lot the above documentation including some the reilly books not the xview volume though volume the reilly series about administration and mentions openwindows although primarily aimed several other books are the works subject getting this file revision history recent changes mail lee com ask for douglas arnold dna math psu edu keeps date copy ftp math psu edu currently the file ftp pub faq open look the net answers archives and servers may may not know about this file since they just changed hands and this file was previously one archive but not the other open look faq lee exp acknowledgements andrei arkhipov andr elvis sovusa com feb binder patch douglas arnold dna math psu edu feb various changes ian darwin ian com christopher davis ckd eff org paul eggert eggert twinsun com feb screenblank solaris stewart ellis elliss frith egr msu edu feb assert nodefinitions jeff fleck jefff meaddata com feb the colormap stuff rick heli rick heli eng sun feb including signature nicholas hounsome cbnewsg att com feb olit workaround larry matthias matthias artos larc nasa gov feb news colormap flashing john melby melby fujitsu fai com feb south paws christian sebeke sebeke frodo lfi uni hannover feb jumbo patch kevin thomas kwthomas nsslsun nssl uoknor edu mar olvwm patches larry virden lvirden cas org mar various comments and many others you get deleted from this list after while liam quin manager contracting softquad inc lee com open look faq metafont list hexsweeper news game text text retrieval
comp.windows.x	list programs with open look user interface open look programs faq lee exp locker lee contents subject applications application builders subject applications graphing tools subject applications utilities subject applications other subject tools terminal emulators subject other commercial applications subject applications toolkit extensions subject openwindows ports subject xview ports subject xview ports subject games free and commercial subject applications application builders commercial devguide contact sunpics lets you use drag and drop create open look application with xview olit uit tnt very easy use free dirt there might olit port this builder commercial exocode contact expert object one the first third party gui builders support open look using the xview toolkit was reviewed sunexpert magazine commercial objectbuilder contact parcplace debra frances debra parcplace com uib user interface builder which supports building applications that support both open look and motif generates code for parcplace toolkit and can make use user created subclasses note can also display osf motif gui runtime free wcl uses resources specify widget hierarchy and actions user defined callbacks uses olit motif commercial xvt contact xvt systems lets you write code common subset open look motif microsoft windows the macintosh gui and even terminals using curses you buy xvt toolkit for each environment subject applications graphing tools free dstool xview based program that plots lorenz attractors and other chaotic things real time also includes mathematical expression interpreter ftp macomb cornell edu free ace graph and analysis program xvgr ftp ftp ccalmr ogi edu xvgr tar ccalmr pub acegr handles scatterplots lineplots bargraphs fft analysis running averages polynomial fits etc free robot scientific graph plotting and data analysis tool contact robin corbet corbet astro psu edu description graph plotting various styles axes data manipulation arithmetic functions smoothing folding sorting fitting data using gaussians polynomials lorentzians and user defined functions annotation graphs log files commands with loops etc colour postscript output ftp astrod astro psu edu pub astrod ftp files robotx tar everything ftp files robotmanual just the documentation ftp files robot sun binary built sparcstation requirements robot xview based user interface portions code are written data manipulation code written fortran hence fortran compiler also required the public domain package alternatively sparc binary available anonymous ftp subject applications utilities free boss description open look the casio boss scheduler free props ftp export lcs mit edu pub untarred contrib lib xview clients props description this the openwindows properties editor that appears when you choose the properties item from the workspace menu free contool ftp from export lcs mit edu description special purpose console window that can filter out take special action specified console messages written chuck musciano requirements xview free faces description displays pictures people who have sent you electronic mail violates the data protection act the subject applications other commercial bimail contact bim pge sunbim address rtt bim horizon geurts patrick notes bimail complete electronic mail system consists user interface which gives access all services with consistent look and feel message transfer agent mta system which can transfer messages over and tcp using rfc gateway smtp mail also available free calentool description day week month year glance calendar and almanac ftp export lcs mit edu contrib calentool tar contact bill randle tektronix inc billr saab cna tek com free emacstool description sunview program that was converted xview and included with the gnu emacs distribution free genix contact ian darwin ian com genealogy program written using guide incomplete jan inquire for details free workman audio player for sun ultrix requirements xview libraries ftp ultrix binary ftp hyperion com workman ftp ftp ucsc edu incoming database over cds contact koreth hyperion com steven grimm free pan postit notes free wais ftp sunsite unc edu description networked distributed text retrieval system olit based front end notes you might need add lce the makefile free xrolo rolodex card index address book free display description xview program for showing text file like more commercial searchit contact sunsoft sunexpress germany france platforms sparc solaris price notes searchit full text search and retrieval application designed improve individual and group productivity makes index files and can later retrieve documents words phrases ranking the results relevance order commercial showme contact sunsoft notes conferencing software that lets multiple connected users share the same drawing screen with bitmap capture and moveable pointer requirements you can only run one showme per computer you have have cpu per conference member free xvman man pages viewer free xvtdl todo list manager ftp export lcs mit edu contrib xvtdl tar contrib xvtdl readme requirements xview libraries contact mike jipping jipping hope edu bitnet jipping hope organisation hope college department computer science free name finder contact richard elling eng auburn edu ftp ftp eng auburn edu pub name finder tar patches pub name finder compile patch requirements openwindows greater recompile description name finder was orginally designed replacement for the name finder missing from the openwindows version mailtool has since grown into tool for several electronic mail related activities including interaction with local listserv robots for handling mail lists requesting full name style mail aliases from your local postmaster and providing mailbox status information ala finger name finder written cfront using gxv version you don have access compiler precompiled sparc executable included the distribution free bibcard interface for bibtex databases requirements xview ftp iamsun unibe bibcard tar ftp includes source and sparc binary for sunos version description gui for mantaining bibliography databases which can used with latex tex and framemaker free moxftp interface ftp ftp ftp chpc utexas edu file packages xftp tar contact bill jones jones chpc utexas edu requirements olit motif athena widgets notes formerly called xftp compiles under least ultrix aix aix convex sunos unicos and irix uses olit bug can also use osf motif and athena widgets free olvwm open look virtual window manager contact scott oaks ftp export lcs mit edu the contrib directory patches there are two patches requirements xview description olvwm version olwm that manages virtual desktop hence the its name shows little map the screen with the currently displayed area represented little rectangle you can move around dragging the rectangle with the arrow keys this lets you run several clients applications and move the display around from one the other olvwm was derived from the openwindows olwm free ftptool open look front end ftp requirements xview ftp export lcs mit edu contrib free hyperlook contact the turing institute requirements openwindows running the xnews server not hypertext package written entirely news runtime from turing com pub ftp net graphics news hyperlook runtime tar maestro ftp from sioux stanford edu multimedia authoring tools including support for sound text video xvnews ftp from export lcs mit edu xview based newsreader for netnews free xvttool ftp dal pub comp archives ftp nuri inria contrib clients ftp lth pub netnews alt sources volume dec xvttool ftp src doc usenet comp archives terminal xvttool description emulator both xview and sunview versions includes buttons for the keys etc subject postscript and graphics viewers commercial pageview postscript previewer contact included openwindows part deskset notes type support only openwindows under solaris antialiasing support with colour openwindows try pageview dpi note that pageview uses the news server interpret the postscript and thus won run terminal other non openwindows server not enough runing open look window manager such olwm commercial xps postscript program editor and previewer contact included with openwindows under demo and share src notes only runs under openwindows commercial psh contact included with openwindows simple interface news and the openwindows server free ralpage ftp export lcs mit edu contrib clients notes crispin goswell postscript interpreter much hacked not open look compliant type font support there are other versions this called xps postscript etc don confuse this xps with the one mentioned above free ghostscript from the free software foundation supports type fonts not open look based subject tools terminal emulators free cmdtool shelltool requirements xview toolkit notes these are included the xview source distribution from export lcs mit edu contrib they also included with sun openwindows commercial switchterm contact micro resources inc columnbus ohio usa notes version xterm with open look print interface ansi colour escape sequences etc commercial isoterm contact the bristol group ltd and germany requirements openwindows other products isotex isofax power base notes olit based terminal emulator couldn get the demo version give shell prompt although did look like was pretty fll emulation with double height characters colour fonts grahics and forth with the union flag the british flag their logo somehow expected english address perhaps bristol subject other commercial applications contact sunsoft sun and ask for the catalyst open look guide which lists over pages applications you can also get the free cdware rom which contains demo versions several popular open look applications once you done this you can often simply contact the vendor concerned have the license upgraded from demo and receive the full product documentation product name author editor sgml based text editor word processor company name softquad inc mail com description word processor text editor that manipulates iso sgml documents interfaces open look xview osf motif mac windows subject applications toolkit extensions product name xtra xwidgets company name graphical software technology mail info gst com phone fax keywords graphics library widgets spreadsheet help interfaces open look motif platforms sparc ibm interactive requirements xol libraries and headers price single user network source support price calls source available yes description the xtra xwidget library contains set widgets that are subclassed from and compatible with either olit motif widgets the library includes widgets that implement the following spreadsheet bar graph stacked bar graph line graph pie chart plot hypertext hypertext based help system and data entry form widgets have been successfully integrated with both teleuse from telesoft and builder xcessory from ics free demo available for any the supported platforms product name xrt graph company name group mail sun com suncan klg info info klg com phone description xrt graph graph object that extends the xview toolkit there are also versions for olit and motif xrt graph supports line plots scatter plots strip charts bar charts stacking bar charts pie charts and filled area charts singly and combination supports real time updates true postscript output and intelligent user feedback comes with builder graph prototyping tool which supports code resource file generation free demo vmgraph available there are free integration kits for uim teleuse and builder xcessory others progress availability xrt graph for xview and olit are only available sparc xrt graph for motif available dozen platforms free slingshot xview extension slingshot provides rectangles like the intrinsics rectobj gadget drag and drop support images icons and text trees lines arrows get ftp from export lcs mit edu contrib slingshot tar remember use binary mode ftp you can also get sending mail archive server gazooch eng sun com with the body each message containing line like send sspkg part part going send sspkg part part send sspkg docpart docpart docpart send sspkg docpart docpart docpart you can ask for one file time reduce the impact intermediate mail sites ask the mail server for help with the subject line help human can reached archive manager gazooch eng sun com add line the message path your mail address you think the normal automatic reply address might not work ada bindings for xview sun ada includes among other things ada source code generator for devguide uses the verdix xview ada bindings does not yet july support gfm the guide file manager bindings for xview qualix uit subject openwindows ports sun sparc sunos sun sparc solaris actually others none far there are said sun two three ports openwindows either available now progress contact anthony flynn open vistas international anthony ovi com for more information originally they said but perhaps they meant openwindows source available commercially costs about for the server including typescaler and the toolkits deskset filemgr etc another tooltalk subject xview ports what xview system apple porter lmj uncompaghre jax org lou jones ftp encyclo jax org notes the libraries and utilities olwm cmdtool etc are available for anonymous ftp from encyclo jax org used gcc compile the sources there enough interest can make the diffs available system concurrent based porter sinan mtesol boeing com sinan karasu system decstation ultrix porter dscott ittc wec com dave scott ftp media lab media mit edu ftp xview ultrix mips tar notes let stress that this not fully tested but seems work pretty well please let know about any problems you find problems already know about large buttons under any non sun server non xnews any standard mit server have the bottom the button chopped off working this one xview also available the dec freeware from decus actually this seems not dave scott port please accept apologies for listing this incorrectly correct entry will appear soon get the necessary information lee system porter ftp tesla ucd pub notes includes build xview patch file xvgr system series porter tjc ecs soton tim chown system series ftp ftp csc liv hpux xview part tar system intel sysvr porter dawes physics david dawes ftp ftp physics suphys physics esix hierarchy notes his patches were for esix but should work dell isc and intel svr with worries the files are readme xview and xview diff see also linux system ibm porter tmcconne sedona intel com tom mcconnell compiler bsdcc ftp export lcs mit edu contrib xview fixes xview unofficial patch notes there still problem with tty support for the for instance the cmdtool will not work still most everything else works for those you who have already installed previous patch have put separate patch for just the shared library problem this file contrib xview fixes xview xview lib patch system linux porter kenneth osterberg lmfken lmf ericsson icompiler gcc libc ftp tsx mit edu pub linux binaries usr bin xview ftp sunsite unc edu notes inlcudes olvwm uit system sgi porter rainer sinkwitz sinkwitz ifi unizh ftp export lcs mit edu contrib xview fixes xview sgi unofficial patch tar notes system solbourne series porter tmcconne sedona intel com tom mcconnell subject xview ports general there point using xview you have xview available good idea look for xview port first moving from xview xview usually simply matter recompiling unless you done dirty tricks used undocumented calls system stellar stardent and stardent porter arvai scripps edu andy arvai ftp perutz scripps edu the pub xview directory notes stardent now kubota pacific kpc system harris nighthawk system unix porter andy harris andy warner status commercial system sgi iris porter ftp wuarchive wustl edu graphics graphics sgi stuff xview xview system vax vms porter tgv inc notes steven fenger svfenge afterlife ncsc mil wrote company called tgv makes product called xview for vms they made xview libraries haven seen them advertising xview libraries yet subject games free and commercial commercial aviator flight simulator for equipped sparcstations contact artificial horizons inc aviator interest ahi com requirements openwindows sunos later sparc gxplus free hexsweeper minesweeper game based hexagons contact lee com include hexsweeper subject requirements openwindows later toolkit tnt free free sidtool pacman game ftp ftp net usenet comp sources games volume sidtool open look pacman surrogate that appears debugger the bad guys are code bugs that move around your screen you the good guy chase them with monitor that eats bugs commercial simcity contact dux software los altos price requirements openwindows uses news doesn run with free spider included openwindows under demo and share src patience style card game with two packs cards and excellent bitmap cards suggest recompiling allow the cards have rounded edges free xblackjack ftp from export lcs edu contrib xblackjack tar motif olit based tool constructed get you ready for the casino liam quin manager contracting softquad inc lee com open look faq metafont list hexsweeper news game text text retrieval
comp.windows.x	comp windows getting more performance out faq archive name faq speedups last modified how maximize the performance monthly posting compiled art mulder art ualberta more ram faster cpu more disk space faster ethernet these are the standard responses you hear when you ask how improve the performance your workstation well more hardware isn always option and wonder more hardware always even necessity this faq list collection suggestions and ideas from different people the net how you can the best possible performance from windows your workstation without purchasing more hardware performance highly subjective issue the individual user must balance speed versus features order come personal decision therefore this document can expected contain many subjective opinions and amongst the objective facts this document specifically concerned with there are course many other factors that can affect the performance workstation however they are outside the scope this document people seriously interested the whole area system performance might want look the reilly nutshell handbook system performance tuning mike loukides imho contains well written comprehensive treatment system performance unaware any other similar books table contents introduction administrivia what about the other faq window managers the server which server locking the server into ram starting your server fonts about the resources file define your display properly clients better clock for better terminal emulator for tuning your client miscellaneous suggestions pretty pictures quicker mouse programming thoughts say what other sources information author notes changed since last issue new since last issue introduction administrivia this document posted each month around the the usenet news groups comp windows news answers and comp answers you are reading copy this faq which more than few months old see the last modified date above you should probably locate the latest edition since the information may outdated you not know how get those newsgroups and your site does not receive them and this article has already expired you can retrieve this faq from archive site there exist several usenet faq archive sites find out more about them and how access them please see the introduction the news answers newsgroup posting news answers the main faq archive rtfm mit edu this document can found there pub usenet news answers faq speedups you not have access anonymous ftp you can retrieve sending mail message mail server rtfm mit edu with the command send usenet news answers faq speedups the message body what about the other faq david lewis faq craft uunet net maintains the informative and well written comp windows frequently asked questions document its focus general information while this faq concentrates performance the comp windows faq does address the issue speed but only with regards the server the gist that topic seems use faster than please see the faq for complete details window managers there are lot window managers out there with lots different features and abilities the choice which use necessity balancing act between performance and useful features this point most respondents have agreed upon twm the best candidate for speedy window manager couple generic tricks you can try soup your window manger turning off unnecessary things like zooming and opaque move also you lay out your windows tiled manner you reduce the amount cpu power spent raising and lowering overlapping windows joe english joe trystero art com found that good font for tiling aka misc fixed medium normal iso the biggest font know that can use sun screen and still get two column terminal windows side side the display with overlap other font suggestions will accepted the server which server make sure that your server proper match for your hardware you have monochrome monitor use monochrome server monochrome sun haven noticed much difference between the xsun colour server and xsunmono however was pointed out that xsunmono about smaller and therefore should contribute less paging thanks jonny farringdon farringdon psychol ucl michael salmon michael salmon eos ericsson how your server was compiled can also make difference jeff law law schirf utah edu advises that sun system should compiled with gcc version with the unbundled sun compiler you can expect get very large speedups the server not using the bundled sunos compiler assume that similar results would occur you used one the other high quality commercial compilers the market locking the server into ram has anyone tried hacking the server that locked into ram and does not get paged via call plock does this help performance all had one inquiry this topic and few pointers the plock function call but hard evidence from someone who tried not position give try thanks eric claeys ecc eperm att com danny backx sunbim juan martin juando cnm starting your server joe english joe trystero art com you start lot clients your xsession whatever sleep for second two after launching each one after changed xclients script this logging actually took less time have heavily loaded system without much core though this sounds crazy but have confirmed that works warner losh imp solbourne com provided with good explanation why this works which have summarized here when you start server takes huge amount time start accepting connections lot initialization done the server when starts this process touches large number pages any other process running the same time would fight the server for use the cpu and more importantly memory you put sleep there you give the server chance get itself sorted out before the clients start similarly there also lot initialization whenever client program starts toolkits registering widgets resources being fetched programs initializing state and databases and forth all this activity typically memory intensive once this initialization done the process has reached steady state the memory usage typically settles down using only few pages using sleeps stagger the launching your clients your xinitrc you avoid them fighting each other for your workstation limited resources this most definitely your mileage may vary situation there are many variables considered available ram local swap space load average number users your system which clients you are starting etc currently xinitrc have situation like sleep exec xclock sleep exec xbiff sleep exec xterm sleep exec xterm experimented with sleep exec xclock sleep exec xbiff sleep exec xterm sleep exec xterm even tried sleep exec start clients script and then start clients script had sleep exec xclock sleep exec xbiff sleep exec xterm sleep exec xterm the idea with this last one was make sure that xinit had completely finished processing xinitrc and had settled down into steady state before the sleep expired and all clients were launched all these yielded fairly comparable results and just stuck with current setup for its simplicity you will probably have experiment bit find setup which suits you fonts loading fonts takes time and ram you minimize the number fonts your applications use you get speed increases load time one simple strategy choose small number fonts one small one large one roman whatever suits you and configure all your clients least all your heavily used clients use only those few fonts client programs should start quicker their font already loaded into the server this will also conserve server resources since fewer fonts will loaded the server farrell mckay fbm ptcburp ptcbu joe english joe trystero art com main xterm font also have twm set use all menus and icons etc twm default font since don normally use eliminated one font from server oliver jones roadrunner pictel com keep fonts local the workstation rather than loading them over nfs you will make extensive use scalable fonts use font server about the resources file keep your xresources xdefaults file small saves ram and saves server startup time joe english joe trystero art com one suggestion your xdefaults xresources file try putting only the minimum number resources that you want have available all your applications for example reversevideo true then separate your resources into individual client specific resource files for example home lib app defaults your login file set the environment variable xuserfilesearchpath setenv xuserfilesearchpath home lib app defaults the comp windows frequently asked questions faq contains excellent explanation how these environment variables work when xterm launches loads its resources from app defaults xterm xdvi finds them app defaults xdvi and and forth note that not all clients follow the same xxxxx resource file naming pattern you can check your system app defaults directory often usr lib app defaults find the proper name and then name your personal resource files with the same name this all documented the specification thanks kevin samborn samborn mtkgc com michael urban urban cobra jpl nasa gov and mike long mikel cornell edu kevin willing mail his setup files inquirers this method organizing your personal resources has the following benefits easier maintain more usable fewer resources are stored the server the resource manager property side benefit your server may start fractionally quicker since doesn have load all your resources applications only process their own resources never have sort through all your resources find the ones that affect them also has drawbacks the application that you are interested has load additional file every time starts this doesn seem make that much performance difference and you might consider this huge boon usability you are modifying application resource database you just need run the application without having xrdb again xrdb will default run your xdefaults file through cpp when your resources are split out into multiple resource files and then loaded the individual client programs they will not watch out for this had style comments xdefaults file which cpp stripped out when switched this method distributed resource files spent several frustrating days trying figure out why clients were not finding their resources did not provide any error message when encountered the style comments the resource files simply silently aborted processing the resource file the loss preprocessing which can very handy ifdef color enough cause some people dismiss this method resource management you may also run into some clients which break the rules for example neither emacs nor xvt will find their resources they are anywhere other than xdefaults when starting client machine that does not share files with the machine where your resources are stored your client will not find its resources loading all your resources into the server will guarantee that all your clients will always find their resources casey leedom casey gauss llnl gov possible compromise suggestion that have and planning trying put resources for all heavily used clients xterm into xdefaults file and use the separate resources files method for clients that seldom use define your display properly client programs are often executed the same machine the server that situation rather than setting your display environment variable hostname where hostname the name your workstation you should set your display variable unix doing this you access optimized routines that know that the server the same machine and use shared memory method transferring requests thanks patrick horgan pjh ras amdahl com see the display names section the man page for further explanation how properly set your display name don think stock mit but least data general and have libraries that are smart enough use local communication even when the display isn set specially rob sartin opensi sartin uunet net jody goldberg jody algorithmics com sent xlib patch change stock use local communication even display not properly set don want get the business distributing trying juggle non mit patches and have elected not include here hopefully mit will apply this minor lines patch themselves the meantime you want try yourself email jody clients you only have few megabytes ram then you should think carefully about the number programs you are running think also about the kind programs you are running for example there smaller clock program than xclock unfortunately haven really noticed that programs advertise how large they are the onus the research and spread the word suggestions better alternatives the some the standard clients xclock xterm xbiff are welcome received some contradictory advice from people the subject client programs some advocate the use programs that are strictly xlib based since xaw and other toolkits are rather large others warn that other applications which you are using may have already loaded one more these shared libraries this case using non for example client program may actually increase the amount ram consumed the upshot all this seems don mix toolkits that try and use just athena clients just xview clients just motif clients etc you use more than one then you dragging more than one toolkit library know your environment and think carefully about which client programs would work best together that environment thanks rob sartin opensi sartin uunet net duncan sinclair sinclair dcs gla sinclair gla dcs better clock for xcuckoo suggested duncan sinclair sinclair dcs gla available export lcs mit edu xcuckoo displays clock the title bar another program saves screen real estate mclock suggested der mouse mouse lightning mcrcim mcgill edu available larry mcrcim mcgill edu mclock shar non based extensively configurable can made look very much like mit oclock mostly like xclock purely changing resources course the ultimate clock one that consumes resources and takes screen real estate the one that hangs your wall better terminal emulator for from the readme file distributed with xterm abandon all hope who enter here this undoubtedly the most ugly program the distribution ugly maybe but site still the most used suspect that xterm one the most used clients many not most sites laziness isn there better terminal emulator available see below you must use xterm you can try reducing the number savelines reduce memory usage oliver jones roadrunner pictel com jonny farringdon farringdon psychol ucl xvt suggested richard hesketh rlh ukc available export lcs mit edu contrib xvt tar you don need all the esoteric features xterm then get hold xvt was written here just save swap space xterm rather hog this was written partial clone xterm you don have rename your resources xvt pretends xterm current version you cannot bind keys you can xterm heard that there are versions xvt with this feature but not found any yet update march recently had few email conversations with brian warkentin brian warkentine eng sun com regarding xvt questions whether xvt really all faster than xterm for instance xvt may initialize slightly faster but compare scrolling speed try this quickie benchmark bin time etc termcap and see which program can scroll faster also while xterm may slightly larger ram requirements don have any hard numbers here does anyone else shared libraries and shared text segments mean that xterm paging requirements are not that major experiment ripped out all the tek stuff from xterm but made little difference since you never use never gets brought into memory here stand with some conflicting reports the validity xvt over xterm summary caveat emptor your mileage may vary you can provide some hard data like see specifically how much ram each occupies how much swap each needs relative speed each mterm suggested der mouse mouse lightning mcrcim mcgill edu available larry mcrcim mcgill edu mterm src mterm ball wax also have own terminal emulator its major lack scrollback but some people like anyway tuning your client suggestions how you can tune your client programs work faster from scott barman scott asd com comes suggestion regarding motif text field widgets noticed that during data entry into motif text field widgets was getting slight lag response some keystrokes particularly the initial one the field examining the what was going with xscope found seems that when the resource xmnblinkrate non zero and the focus text field widget even just text widget the beam cursor will blink every time the cursor appears disappears those widgets the widget code making request the server copyarea the user can stop this setting the resource xmnblinkrate not noticeable mhz sparc but does make little difference slower system this specific suggestion can probably applied general lots areas consider your heavily used clients are there any minor embellishments that can turned off and thereby save server requests miscellaneous suggestions pretty pictures don use large bitmaps gif etc root window backgrounds the more complicated your root window bitmap the slower the server redrawing your screen when you reposition windows redraw etc these take ram and cpu power work sun sparc and conscious performance issues can comprehend when see people with sun running xphoon their root window let someone else figure out how much ram would occupied having full screen root image colour workstation you anything like you need all the screen real estate that you can get for clients and rarely see the root window anyway thanks qiang alex zhao azhao arizona edu for reminding this one quicker mouse using xset you can adjust how fast your pointer moves the screen when you move your mouse use xset xinitrc file which lets send pointer across the screen with just flick the wrist see the xset man page for further ideas and information hint sometimes you may want slow down your mouse tracking for fine work cover options have placed number different mouse setting commands into menu window manager for twm menu mouse settings mouse settings title very fast xset normal fast xset system default accelerated xset default glacial xset programming thoughts joe english joe trystero art com speed applications that you developing there are tons things you can some that stick out for motif programs don set xmfontlist resources for individual buttons labels lists use the defaultfontlist labelfontlist whatever resource the highest level manager widget again stick few fonts possible better yet don use motif all absolute pig don create and destroy widgets the fly try reuse them this will avoid many problems with buggy toolkits too use line width gcs some servers this makes huge difference compress and collapse multiple expose events this can make the difference between fast application and completely unusable one francois staes frans kiwi uia just small remark once heard that using better malloc function would greatly increase performance based applications since they use malloc heavily they suggested trying out the gnuy malloc but didn find the time yet did some tests small programs just doing malloc and free and the differences were indeed very noticeable somewhat times faster any confirmation this from anyone andre beck andre beck irs inf dresden unnecessary noexpose events most people use xcopyarea xcopyplane fastest blit routines but they forget reset graphics exposures the used for the blits this will cause noexpose event every blit that most cases only puts load onto the connection and forces the client run through event loop again and again thousands xchangegc requests this gfx context switching also seen most handcoded apps where only one few gcs are created and then heavily changed again and again uses definitely better mechanism caching and sharing lot gcs with all needed parameters this will remove the load subsequent xchangegc requests from the connection moving toward the client startup phase say what some contributors proposed ideas that seem right off the wall first david lewis day dbl osf org night david craft uunet net how about this swap displays with someone else run all your programs the other machine and display locally the other user runs off your machine onto the other display goal reduce context switches the same operation between client and server not situation where can easily try this but have received the following confirmation michael salmon michael salmon eos ericsson regularly run programs other machines and notice big difference try run machine where will reduce net usage and usually with nice reduce the impact intrusion this helps lot poor little with only was essential when only had casey leedom casey gauss llnl gov the server and the client are competing for the same cpu your server when you run the same machine not really major problem except that the client and the server are absolute synchronicity and are context thrashing timothy panton thp westhawk uucp firstly relies the fact that most cpu are mostly idle cpu usage bursty the chances you and your teammate doing something cpu intensive the same time small they are not then you get twice the cpu memory available for your action the second factor that context switches are expensive using cpu halves them you pay price due the overhead going over the network but this offset most cases the improved buffering network typically for pipe allowing even fewer context switches other sources information volume reilly window system series window system administrator guide book all administrator should read adrian nye adrian ora com lot more tips performance are the paper improving application performance chris peterson and sharon chang issue the resource earlier version this paper appeared the xhibition conference proceedings this paper absolutely essential reading for programmers author notes this list currently maintained art mulder art ualberta suggestions corrections submission for inclusion this list are gladly accepted layout suggestions and comments spelling mistak too are also welcome currently have listed all contributors the various comments and suggestions you not want credited please tell speedup faq copyright arthur mulder you may copy this document whole part long you don try make money off pretend that you wrote art mulder art ualberta not conformed this world department computing science but transformed the renewal university alberta edmonton canada your mind romans
comp.windows.x	resource widget toolkit required for windows applications article sijn werple apana org jamie zikzak jamie scuglia writes does anyone know any public domain toolkits for creating windows applications have used the toolkit but would like create pop windows dialog boxes etc using some sort drawing editor instead trying specify what want sizes positions etc within actual source code basically looking for something similar borland whitewater resource toolkit for windows expect need one for windows instead any help would much appreciated recently found excellent source for windows programs seen quite few windows toolkits there the place export lcs mit edu the contrib directory its full windows programs hope this helps
comp.windows.x	installing xdbx sgi did anyone install xdbx sgi workstation thanks for your answer gildas perrot gildas perrot associe recherche ecole polytechnique institut genie biomedical succ mail perrot grbb polymtl montreal canada tel fax
comp.windows.x	viewing postscript files under windows tgoj inmet camb inmet com gjs corsica camb inmet com george snyder writes article rinnptb polaris isi com kin isi com kin cho writes wonder anybody know window based postscript file viewer that runs under sunos prefered hpux ibm aix you are running sun openwindows you can use pageview this window postscript previewer like ghostview but displays much nicer yes but broken does not handle multiple pages well you don have the proper postscript commands will draw the entire document the same page instead pausing after each page haven tried yet though gordon sasamori csic mcu design email gordons sps mot com nippon motorola ltd voice fax
comp.windows.x	xfig article elroy jpl nasa gov urban sideshow michael urban writes have compiled xfig patchlevel with from augmented the athena and libraries from distribution from iworks ecn uiowa edu compiles nicely although for one file the preprocessor macro definition table size needed increased but when executed nothing happens all except for ever growing memory requirements eventually climaxing core dump the binary the identical program compiled with has problems other programs like xtpanel compile link and run just fine with the same libraries does this sound familiar going have figure this one out own please see the post made yesterday may which fixes the problem this was posted comp windows apps brian smith bvsmith lbl gov lawrence berkeley laboratory don speak for lbl they don pay enough for that
comp.windows.x	aix using have gotten compile aix using but the server will not run simplys starts and couple seconds later exits error are displayed defines for compile are dsysv daixv dsysv wait dmalloc returns null could somewhere share some light maybe the ibm file thanks malcolm strickland martin marietta missile systems chuck strickland orl mmc com mail point phone pobox fax orlando florida
comp.windows.x	uimx motif application generator looking information regarding uimx believe this application front end generator tool for motif among others whould someone given contact need get hold the programmers guide something like paul mahoney act solutions limited smail shipley lane cooden bexhill sea east sussex email ptm xact demon pmahoney cix compulink phone
comp.windows.x	some rookie questions new xlib programming having problem hope someone here can help with create window and want have some background color say red and draw oval further when resize the window want able redraw the image that fills the new window whether larger smaller using aixwindows problem this when resize the window only the original part the window that was part the window creation gets drawn into everything else grey the oval tries redraw itself but gets clipped can see that would the right size could see all but only shows the region that was the original size the window when created for example start out the window width and height resize the only part that has any color drawn into from the origin out the rest grey further the oval only shows that area what doing wrong how can get window resize and redraw scaled image take the full size the window second question could someone tell what xaw and xmu are thanks chris
comp.windows.x	reilly adobe script sun openlook books cheap have some brand new copies the following books for sale some are down rev don know which how much look pages copyright date etc for clues postscript language reference manual adobe sys inc addison wesley copyr printed pages postscript language tutorial and cookbook above pages sell the above two books set for postage paid openlook gui functional specification sun micro addison copyr pages openlook gui application style guidelines pages sell the above two books set for ppd reilly associates definitive guides the window system copyr for version revised and updated for release vol protocol reference manual pages vol xlib programming manual pages vol xlib reference manual pages vol xview programming manual pages sell the above four books set for ppd due the high hassle ratio asking for pre payment check queing cashing packing and shipping prepared wait weeks for your books show you like pick them live san francisco same prices though mail you are interested thanks cornhead
comp.windows.x	printing xbm files does anyone know direct way print image xbm file please reply directly and post summary any opinion presented here own and does not reflect the policy employer nasa the ames research center roger smith sterling software nasa ames research center rsmith proteus arc nasa gov change inevitable predictable beneficial doesn logic demand that you part one man cannot summon the future but one man can change the present kirk and the alternate spock mirror mirror stardate unknown
comp.windows.x	windows mfc motif tools sought looking for info products that can take windows source unix box such sparc and produce motif executable another requirement that mfc should supported already know wind bristol technologies hunter sdk mainwin mainsoft are there any others will post summary wanted daniel dls autodesk com dls netcom com daniel smith autodesk sausalito california disclaimer accuracy statements corrrelates somehow caffeine intake
comp.windows.x	scientific graphing looking for run time library may serval net wsu edu bucky pnl gov pelkey writes article iem hawnews watson ibm com artg watson ibm com art goldberg writes gurus looking for scientific graphing run time library want code open window and plot graph the window the library should manage plotting scaling axes labeling etc can someone recommend library this please respond via mail would also interested this information check into the vopl and vogle libraries beleive that still have them available ftp mols siu edu but not sure haven seen any new announcements for the software but sure still around have used real time data display and analysis well just for producing graphs after the fact works well and supports numerous graphics output formats including tried and liked you may well dan ellison network spec computing affairs siu southern illinois university carbondale fax phone
comp.windows.x	help wanted display stereo images with accelerator friends our sparc workstation now equippied with accelerator want use display stereo images the accelerator has double buffers how can access the buffers and switch between them with which functions can that with functions from xgl phigs xlib xlib extension your help will highly appreciated yonglong uni hannover
comp.windows.x	scaling fonts motif gurus how you handling scaling text while performing zooming operations figures restricting user select scalable fonts too restrictive and absolute any books that have discussion this topic should have really taken more those computer graphics courses but now its too late will summarize response thanks advance subodh smn netcom com
comp.windows.x	remote across tcpip decnet does anyone know the following possible and how about doing want able display remote applications vaxstation off internet node here where the problem comes the vaxstation isn connected directly the internet but connected via decnet node that does have connection the internet does anyone know possible get the display use tcpip from the remote internet node down local internet node and then send via decnet down the vaxstation for the machine that connected the internet what running running vms then you obtain multinet for multinet comes with tcp decnet gateway for patrick mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking person unnecessarily should not considered lazarus long capital crime for first offense that from the notebooks lazarus long
comp.windows.x	looking for windows all this the first time posted the net hope this going the right people looking for software packages that run ibm clone that allows display openlook and motif windows the the idea use the cheap windows terminal for use process engineers work anyone can mail any recommended packages horror stories etc would greatful thanks advance mark wilkinson mark wilkinson mail wilkinson roborough gpsemi com senior software engineer markwilk lincoln gpsemi com gec plessey semiconductors roborough plymouth england
comp.windows.x	xrastool part well thanks largely subscribers this group here xrastool the animation package started just over weeks ago number the solutions provided through discussions here have been incorporated the code have look the full blurb has been posted comp windows announce this post two parts unpack the source code extract the articles into file and file for example use text editor remove leading and trailing text the cut here markers including the markers themselves next type cat file file file then uudecode file and zcat xrastool tar tar xvf read the readme file for instructions how proceed from there enjoy derek the source also available for anon ftp from export lcs mit edu the contrib directory there enough demand static binary will provided for those without the xview libraries include files derek richardson tel institute astronomy fax cambridge mail dcr mail ast cam
comp.windows.x	and motif config file for hello everybody out there trying compile and motif running but seems not very succesful because have only config files for tried standard and was compiled with lot warnings the motif applications are compiled quite well but they won run receive the xkeysymdb error which reported faq but cannot fix the xkeysymdb file the right location and works fine under sunos probably have started the compilation prozess only with wrong config file please help thanx advance markus markus koch universitaet paderborn email raistlin uni paderborn rechnerbetreuung phone warburger str paderborn germany markus koch universitaet paderborn email raistlin uni paderborn warburger str phone paderborn germany
comp.windows.x	public domain low price case for are looking for public domain low price case running aix and solaris and sun for motif and openlook not regular follower these groups would prefer answer this mail thanks advance regards osvaldo osvaldo gervasi centro calcolo universita degli studi perugia piazza universita perugia
comp.windows.x	painting with increasing resolution some people working few cubes over have come with this need and seems that someone out there just might have done already and can point some tools that would help what they like given window that taking long time draw because either the data arriving over slow link the display across slow link they would like first paint low resolution version the picture and then repaint higher resolution thus the picture might first generated resolution with each square pixels being filled with single color next each square would replaced squares finally the version would painted since one the scenarios with the window being the other side slow link the low res version obviously wouldn transmitted bitmap that wouldn help all instead there would have process the far end that receives the low res picture small bitmap and blows each pixel into square sorta like the magnifier programs this brings the question whether the server can help that when window opened there way ask that filter program run process the pixels the only way use something like rsh start remote process permission denied and have open local window seems the most likely scenario library routine that starts such program remotely and then accepts bitmaps compressing each one some amount and sending them the remote program expand but there something that itself can help nice hear about looked several fms but there obviously don know the keywords someone has nifty tool available that packages all might want get copy yes this run some suns part the idea build demos that can show such things this were run across say bps link this how fast the pictures would appear then the customer would get feel for the speed that they need pay for the auto industry were like the computer industry car would now cost would get miles the gallon and random times would explode killing all its passengers
comp.windows.x	and motif config file for may raistlin uni paderborn markus koch said markus nntp posting host samos uni paderborn markus hello everybody out there markus trying compile and motif running markus but seems not very succesful because markus have only config files for markus tried standard and was compiled with lot warnings markus the motif applications are compiled quite well but they won run markus receive the xkeysymdb error which reported faq but markus cannot fix the xkeysymdb file the right location and markus works fine under sunos markus probably have started the compilation prozess only with wrong markus config file markus please help markus markus thanx advance markus markus you installed lib redefining projectroot you will find that during the install recompiles one the files lib that does the search for xkeysmdb and embeds the search path for the file based whatever projectroot was defined confirm this what happened because guessing mit lib and strings xstrkeysym egrep xkeysymdb guy singh ixi internet guy vision park uucp guy ixi uucp cambridge bang uunet ixi guy tel
comp.windows.x	wordwrap hello everybody does anybody know how implement wordwrap with use xdrawimagestring the problem that don know how many characters can drawn region have calculate character for character the width the drawn text thank you advance ooo ooo joerg mainzer internet mainzer darmstadt gmd german nat research center net mainzer ipsi darmstadt gmd dbp for information technology voice dolivostrasse fax darmstadt germany symptom bar moving fault you are being carried out solution find out you are being taken another bar not complain loudly that you are being jacked
comp.windows.x	plane mask xperts where can get good example which xgcvalues plane mask used who can explain how for and how use any hints welcome thanks rainer hochreiter telephone elin energieanwendung gesmbh telefax penzingerstr wien austria europe mail rainer elin
comp.windows.x	viewing postscript files under windows article rinnptb polaris isi com kin isi com kin cho writes wonder anybody know window based postscript file viewer that runs under sunos prefered hpux ibm aix reason looking for this utility that downloaded these large postscript documents and like know how useful and how long they are before commiting them the printer and potentially wasting pages paper and hogging the printer for hour get ghostscript and ghostview ghostview postscript previewer that uses ghostscript from the ghostview readme ghostview user interface for ghostscript ghostview full function user interface for ghostscript brief list features ghostview parses any known version adobe document structuring conventions page size automatically determined from the document structuring comments the user able override the values from the comments window size set the bounding box for encapsulated postscript figures default page size letter and can changed via xresources application defaults file any other valid size for our european friends scrollbars appear when necessary page orientation automatically determined from the document structuring comments the user able override the values from the comments ability view orientations portrait landscape upside down and seascape for those who rotate landscape the other direction ability preview any supported visual can preview gray scale color color monitor ability mark pages for printing saving good for people that printed page document and lost page due printer jam can popup zoom windows printer resolution display dot printer dot the ghostview distribution includes ghostview widget that people are encouraged use other programs ghostview available via anonymous ftp from prep mit edu pub gnu ghostview tar appenzell wisc edu pub ghostview tar from the ghostscript readme this file describes version ghostscript overview ghostscript ghostscript the name set software that provides interpreter for the ghostscript language which very closely resembles the postscript language and set procedures the ghostscript library that implement the graphics capabilities that appear primitive operations the ghostscript language the ghostscript language interpreter and library are written entirely with some assembly language accelerators for dos platforms currently ghostscript known run the following platform families ibm and compatibles with ega vga supervga compatible graphics under dos wide variety unix systems using windows version release and including sun sun sun sun sparcstation generic machines running and decstation and vax running ultrix sequent symmetry convex and tektronix sgi iris indigo sun workstations sun sparc sun running sunview vax vms with gcc and dec compiler dec compiler version later required get ghostscript from the same ftp site you get ghostview tim williams com night vision electronic sensors directorate dsn amsel vispd williams fax belvoir mail williams nvl army mil
comp.windows.x	fax software article snoqoinndh darkstar ucsc edu philb cats ucsc edu philip brown writes like know there any free fax software for xwindows that can use have sun running mit checked the export lcs mit edu list and there didn seem anything there tea noxious brew various oriental leaves containing toxic acids personally rather like paraprhased from who peter davidson philb cats ucsc edu philb soda berkeley edu check prep mit edu called fax tar something that effect and the software for netfax forewarned that requires the moment fairly costly fax modem with certain capabilities use doug hughes system net admin martin marietta aerospace valley forge doug happy com doug land com
comp.windows.x	problem with release unidentified external symbol get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass use lxaw lxmu lxext lxt not this order but proper order wondering there has some changes link libraries should include some more libraries any help this matter will very useful and highly appreciated thanks pramod
comp.windows.x	accented characters how been able configure xterm that can type accented characters using with iso fonts shell tcsh with the following definitions setenv ctype iso stty pass then add the following xdefaults file xterm eightbitinput true xterm eightbitoutput true xterm translations override meta key keymap aigu meta key keymap grave meta key keymap circ meta key keymap ced xterm aigukeymap translations shift key string keymap none key string keymap none shift key string key string xterm gravekeymap translations shift key string keymap none key string keymap none shift key string keymap none key string keymap none shift key string keymap none key string keymap none xterm circkeymap translations shift key string xea keymap none key string xca keymap none shift key string xfb keymap none key string xdb keymap none shift key string xee keymap none key string xce keymap none shift key string keymap none key string keymap none xterm cedkeymap translations shift key string keymap none key string keymap none this makes the meta keys behave dead keys course this only works for xterm for emacs solution install the lucid version gnuemacs and load the compose library hope this helps eric eric dujardin eric dujardin inria inria rocquencourt projet rodin les bons gongs font chesnay cedex les bonzes amis tel gotlib
comp.windows.x	apps for displaying data sets the subject line says all really looking for application which will just handle the displaying data sets images cross section any pointers code which will aid the development such system thanks advance keith marlow keith marlow sys uea norwich phone cyclone bbs arc beeb norwich norfolk files fidonet echoes charts acorn archiboard central support area radio info archiboard voice tried dos once but didn inhale
comp.windows.x	looking for windows article wlij bailgate gpsemi com wilkinson roborough gpsemi com writes all this the first time posted the net hope this going the right people looking for software packages that run ibm clone that allows display openlook and motif windows the the idea use the cheap windows terminal for use process engineers work may humbly suggest desqview course biased desqview multitasker for dos computers that uses standard server display mechanism dos applications and microsoft windows standard mode are converted the fly protocol allowing you display them any compatable program from any machine the net display the local display any other display the net free tools are available for devloping applications for the dvx platform many programs have been ported between dvx and unix with little modifications often you only need create new makefile you interested more details you can check out the usenet group comp msdos desqview just email directly support qdeck com and happy fill you quarterdeck office systems internet support tom bortels pricing ordering info qdeck com tech questions support qdeck com bbs fax compuserve quarterdeck anonymous ftp qdeck com leave your email address password
comp.windows.x	type rasterizer where article sofac zebedee ingres supp ingres com support account writes article thomas tornblom may beck nexus comm thomas tornblom nexus comm thomas tornblom writes trying locate the type rasterizer that ibm donated the consortium found patches but not the original source the contrib tape mike glendinning ingres mikeg ingres yes found there thanks everyone thomas real life thomas rnblom email thomas tornblom nexus comm snail mail communicator nexus phone box fax uppsala sweden
comp.windows.x	looking for windows check out program called xview used before and from what can tell exactly what you looking for last checked you should able find for about copy eric schwarte colostate edu course certain heisenberg schwarte lamar colostate edu hadn single redeeming vice where does bob barker when oscar wilde watch vanna white wasting time important part living
comp.windows.x	looking for windows markw pspmf gpsemi com mark wilkinson ext writes all this the first time posted the net hope this going the right people looking for software packages that run ibm clone that allows display openlook and motif windows the the idea use the cheap windows terminal for use process engineers work you already own all the clone equipment then there are lots such programs see current copy unix world magazine but your performance will suck lemons running xserver clone from experience you would much better off with xterminal this new install the performance will least four times better addition would much easier install and use top that they will cost about the same price clone with ram ethernet card very high performance graphics card good monitor server software tcp for clone software mouse keyboard etc etc etc you spend whole lot can get tektronix terminals for under and the performance over xstones mark davis lake taylor hospital norfolk sys administrator computer services mark taylor mark taylor uucp
comp.windows.x	twm greyscale distributed twm thinks everything with three more colormap cells must colour screen here patch have use the screen visual class twm dist wed may twm wed may scr xorvalue unsigned long scr depth ifdef oldcode displaycells dpy scrnum scr monochrome monochrome else scr monochrome color else xvisualinfo template xvisualinfo visualinfo int nitems template visual defaultvisual dpy scrnum template visualid xvisualidfromvisual template visual template screen scrnum visualinfo xgetvisualinfo dpy visualidmask visualscreenmask template nitems nitems switch visualinfo class case staticcolor case pseudocolor case truecolor case directcolor scr monochrome color break default scr monochrome monochrome break else void fprintf stderr visual match assuming mono nitems scr monochrome monochrome assume endif setup default colors scr firsttime true george ross department computer science university edinburgh kings buildings mayfield road edinburgh scotland mail gdmr dcs voice fax
comp.windows.x	piping tail widget how lord how spent the past week tearing hair out trying get the output piped tail end widget managed make work some ugly ways but either blocks the tail and won allow user input the tail functions like just tail and doesn follow the expansion the file the tail doesn die after closed the pipe and destoryed the widget pclose blocks forever waiting for tail die know this code has exist anybody have general popen case would perfered but this point take anything thanks greg knauss greg quotron com llamas dammit llamas
comp.windows.x	error building xdm there trying build mit core distribution sparcstation running sunos the only thing change the projectroot site def when the make world process goes xdm get the following error undefined symbol error code and the process continues finish does anybody know what wrong thanx for any info lei shao cunixa columbia edu
comp.windows.x	twm hey guys run twm and would like execute some program before leaving twm other words would like run some program before quit possible make menu section which would contain these two parts thanks advance serge serge gluttony astro unc edu
comp.windows.x	looking for windows article wlij bailgate gpsemi com markw pspmf gpsemi com mark wilkinson ext writes all this the first time posted the net hope this going the right people looking for software packages that run ibm clone that allows display openlook and motif windows the the idea use the cheap windows terminal for use process engineers work anyone can mail any recommended packages horror stories etc would greatful thanks advance mark wilkinson mark wilkinson mail wilkinson roborough gpsemi com senior software engineer markwilk lincoln gpsemi com gec plessey semiconductors roborough plymouth england xoftware from age software has proven good runs under windows and relatively stable techsup age com could probably help you out more andy andrew justin caird jobs nuclear engineering student university michigan ring compton camera project dept nuclear engineering parallel computing code work andrew caird umich edu acaird umich edu andrew caird umich edu acaird engin umich edu
comp.windows.x	xwd and color anyone able get xwd dump anything that not black white text not black all get window borders tried the option only because didn know what did still effect any help this matter would greatly appreciated
comp.windows.x	none mail relay people looking for servers for dos windows already seen desqview and xvision but like aware other choices there anything the public domain shareware and the commercial area there anything with aggressive pricing what about incompatibilities window managers any info welcome thanx advance mario valente
comp.windows.x	postscript viewer icons xbackground article rsjf ccu umanitoba roholdr ccu umanitoba ross holder writes ever since started use xwindows which say recently accumulated few questions about applications three examples follow was recently mentioned comp linux that there exists post script viewer interested this and any editor that improvement xedit which find annoying try get axe wonderful based editor and much simpler use than emacs what overkill course emacs editor but religion one point was the proud owner amiga and have since upgraded workbench the point and click interface used info files store the data for icons associated with applications given volume have noticed such architecture anywhere under linux how does xwindows associate icons with applications can one edit icons generate new ones for applications somehow makes difference running twm don call going from amiga ibm upgrade the amiga workbench did the job desktop manager and there really amazing good desktop manager the public domain currently writing one but very early stage xdtm may medium good replacement associates icons with nothing number window managers associate icons with windows way ease window management but this has nothing with icons desktop manager application the tool bitmap there for simple icon drawing noticed some people have somehow discovered way display gif some kind picture files the background either replacing overlapping some the usual grey background employed xwindows heard this was done using some application but don recall what was root max quit whatever image file brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.windows.x	looking for windows long list known servers markw pspmf gpsemi com mark wilkinson ext writes all this the first time posted the net hope this going the right people looking for software packages that run ibm clone that allows display openlook and motif windows the the idea use the cheap windows terminal for use process engineers work here listing that came accross while ago this question seems come often enough that figured this would interest note that the server appeal for dos available demo form the internet via anonymous ftp this one way quickly checking out the feasability using your system server enjoy pete begin enclosure from mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov daniel mccoy newsgroups comp windows news answers subject servers for dos microsoft windows macs amigas atari reply mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov daniel mccoy organization net inc summary this guide list servers that can used nonunix sic networked machines display clients running unix machines archive name xservers nonunix last modified version servers for dos microsoft windows macs amigas atari april volume author daniel mccoy net inc software technology branch information systems directorate nasa johnson space center post mail nasa mail code nasa johnson space center houston texas mail mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov this monthly guide servers that can used non unix networked machines display clients running unix machines use the name unix loosely here know others can run the sources for this information come from many places the faq for comp windows blurbs and info packets from the vendors user manuals for the products themselves conversations with sales representatives personal experience comp windows articles etc please forward any corrections updates the above address this file also available anonymous ftp export lcs mit edu contrib xservers nonunix txt ftp uwp edu pub misc xservers nonunix txt msdos archive umich edu msdos info xservers nonunix txt and msdos info xnonunix zip servers for dos desqview ibm windows micro dos micro lite decwindows motif windows xsight xview sage adapter and windows display server teemtalk vista exceed appeal xinet station xnth xoftware for dos xoftware for tiga dos servers microsoft windows desqview excursion for windows exodus for windows hcl exceed microx multiview xview vista exceed one xoftware xvision servers ibm windows for servers macintosh exodus macx servers amiga unknown window system version release for the amiga computer servers atari tos window server and tos window server color servers servers servers servers servers servers servers dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos desqview vendor melinda quarterdeck office systems inc pico boulevard santa monica tel fax price latest version cpu higher version available memory mbytes operating system dos higher dos higher mouse optional compatible pointing device graphics ega vga super vga color dgis ethernet card network software disk space mbyte hard drive features incorporates into the desqview multi tasking dos environment adds graphical look and feel desqview gives users choice window managers look and feels provides growth path from character mode dos industry standard graphical user interfaces runs most regular dos applications runs dos extended applications gbytes can display dos applications within graphical windows multitasks dos applications and clients either locally remotely provides simple port applications from other systems desqview and vice versa gives developers choice application appearances based toolkit chosen supports toolkits that provide features required developers such push buttons scrollbars pop dialogue boxes etc adobe type manager for scalable fonts and scalable dos windows dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos ibm windows vendor ibm part price latest version cpu memory operating system dos mouse graphics ethernet card network software disk space features dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos micro dos vendor starnet communications corporation lawrence expressway santa clara tel fax micro starnet com prices unit pack greater discount for larger quantities upgrades original price educational discount latest version cpu memory mbytes operating system dos higher mouse button mouse with compatible driver graphics ahead ati everex vga genoa paradise stb trident tseng labs video vga western digital zymos poach vesa and others ethernet card com com etherlink cabletron micom interlan western digital novell national semiconductor boards that have their own packet driver from manufacturer network software included starnet tcp integrated ncsa telnet ftp lpr etc packet drivers clarkson crynwr network software supported beame whiteside tcp ftp software tcp sun nfs disk space mbytes mbytes for all fonts mbyte mbyte needed features intelligent installation program tcp built support motif open look and dec supports clarkson crynwr packet drivers dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos micro lite vendor starnet communications corporation lawrence expressway santa clara tel fax micro starnet com prices latest version cpu memory kbytes operating system dos higher mouse button mouse with compatible driver graphics ahead ati everex vga genoa paradise stb trident tseng labs video vga western digital zymos poach vesa and others ethernet card com com etherlink cabletron micom interlan western digital novell national semiconductor boards that have their own packet driver from manufacturer network software included starnet tcp integrated ncsa telnet ftp lpr packet drivers clarkson crynwr network software supported beame whiteside tcp ftp software tcp sun nfs disk space mbytes mbyte mbyte needed features intelligent installation program tcp built clients screen time fixed font oriented variable fonts available support motif open look and dec supports clarkson crynwr packet drivers dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos decwindows motif vendor dennis giokas decwindows development digital equipment corporation porter littleton price latest version cpu memory mbytes operating system dos mouse any pointing device with mouse later interface graphics ega color and mono mcga vga color and mono enhanced vga color and mono color pseudo color visual ethernet card network software tcp and decnet disk space features release server integrated virtual memory manager standard ibm compatible keyboards and digital session manager client integrated into the server suspend session feature run dos commands font compiler for adobe bitmap distribution files keysym compiler customize the keyboard for default keycode keysym mappings over pre defined keyboard mapping files configuration utility define hardware environment and user preferences supports decnet and tcp available from dec dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos xview vendor network computing devices inc xdivision gemini drive beaverton tel fax there are also ncd technical and sales offices around the united states and other international offices price xview for dos for for annual maintenance for for update for for latest version xview for dos version cpu recommended memory mbyte mbytes recommended operating system dos higher mouse graphics cga ega vga svga xga tiga video standard supported with extended memory japanese graphics mode high resolution graphics boards compac dell nec spectragraphics squeegee and over other dgis based ethernet card over ethernet communications boards supported network software needed tcp decnet disk space mbytes mbytes recommended features unix application support for traditional applications and window managers such motif and open look off loads the graphics processing unix hosts hot key dos access local peripherals and dos utilities easy and well documented installation procedures pop control panel motif compliant local window manager ability run windows pif window hot key between and dos longer have exit tsr dpmi compatibility enhanced protocol tracing support xremote protocol dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos windows vendor intelligent decisions inc weddell suite sunnyvale tel fax price latest version cpu memory mbyte more recommended for res lots pixmaps operating system dos higher mouse compatible mouse graphics vga some svga ethernet card network software ftp software tcp wollongong win tcp disk space mbytes hard disk features port mit server shape extension mit magic cookie xdmcp font compiler fonts supplied motif open look decwindows vms and ultrix demonstrated work with this server interop last year dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos xsight vendor xsight locus computing corporation cienega blvd inglewood tel price latest version cpu memory kbytes base memory with kbytes available kbytes extended memory operating system dos later mouse button mouse and driver button mouse recommend graphics ega vga hercules ethernet card excelan exos com western digital micom acer multitech network software disk space inch high density inch diskette drive mbyte features dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos sage adapter and windows display server vendor sigma designs inc landing parkway fremont tel fax telex price latest version cpu memory operating system dos higher unix system mouse graphics high end multiscanning fixed frequency khz monitors ethernet card network software disk space features menu driven installation and configuration program resolution tiga emulation cga mda hercules vga pass through emulation modes colors displayable simultaneously from palette million dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos teemtalk vendor pericom tel price latest version cpu memory operating system mouse graphics ethernet card network software disk space features for ibm clones allows toggling between and dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos vista exceed vendor control data corporation vista distributing computing largo drive west suite landover tel price vista exceed vista exceed plus vista exceed plus latest version cpu memory kbytes mbyte for dos server mbytes for vista exceed plus and vista exceed plus operating system dos dos higher mouse button compatible mouse graphics ega vga svga color analog monochrome monitor ethernet card any supported tcp transports listed below network software tcp network software for dos ftp software inc nfs sun microsystems inc win tcp for dos the wallongong group inc pathway access for dos the wallongong group inc lan workplace tcp transport system novell excelan open tcp com corporation arpa services hewlett packard corporation net one tcp bns ungermann bass inc bwnfs telnet package beame whiteside software ltd disk space hard disk features can may mbytes available for client processing emulates button mouse with button mouse full interactive support for font names and alias schemes locally modify keyboard mapping dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos appeal vendor giovanni novelli xtreme livorno italy fax xappeal xtreme sublink org before xappeal xtreme after price with quantity discounts off for copies off for copies off for copies additional discount for educational institutions demo copies available through anonymous ftp garbo uwasa demo xap exe zip readme and executables demo xap fon zip local server fonts connect drivers zip packet drivers latest version cpu higher memory mbytes mbytes recommended operating system dos later mouse any pointing device with mouse compatible driver graphics most svga boards color mode ahead ati chips technologies genoa ncr oak technologies oti paradise trident tseng labs western digital ethernet card any model compatible with packet drivers network software tcp included disk space least mbytes features full server implementation including pex and font server support screen painting exceeds xstones resolution colors without support for all color classes staticgray grayscale staticcolor pseudocolor truecolor and directcolor run time resolution switch and panning virtual screen emulates button mouse with button mouse fast cursor tracking full support for european keyboard layouts memory limitation through use virtual memory bit protected mode dos extended application built tcp support using the packet driver for the ethernet board free packet driver collection included interactive configuration utility display manager control protocol support for hosts running xdm authorization mit magic cookie shape extension for non rectangular windows font compiler and rgb database utilities fonts provided including fonts for sun open windows and decwindows unix application support for traditional applications and window managers such motif and open look built rcp rsh server allow file transfers and the execution useful dos functions without leaving the environment dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos xinet station vendor xinetron tel price latest version cpu memory operating system mouse graphics ethernet card network software disk space features clients dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos xnth vendor jerry norman nth graphics ltd tel this server project has been abandoned price cpu memory operating system dos higher mouse graphics ethernet card network software tcp disk space features supports resolution monitors colors out with hardware acceleration for graphics and text operations dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos xoftware for dos vendor age logic inc pacific heights blvd san diego tel fax email sales age com bert shure tel ext email bert age com age bert ucsd edu price with tcp latest version cpu memory mbytes extended operating system dos higher mouse button mouse with compatible driver graphics ega vga svga ethernet card compatible with network software network software com open tcp higher dec pathworks tcp higher ftp tcp higher novell lan workplace higher sun nfs higher wollongong pathway access higher disk space mbytes mbyte mbyte floppy needed features mit compliant with age extensions hotkeys dos and windows passive telnet rsh rexec xdmcp startup modes motif openlook and decwindows support virtual screen support international keyboard support full font library snf format bdf snf font compiler complete documentation support and update service dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos xoftware for tiga dos vendor age logic inc pacific heights blvd san diego tel fax email sales age com bert shure tel ext email bert age com age bert ucsd edu price with tcp latest version cpu memory kbytes operating system dos higher mouse button mouse with compatible driver graphics texas instruments tms based graphics accelerator with tiga higher whith mbyte dram ethernet card compatible with network software network software com open tcp higher dec pathworks tcp higher ftp tcp higher novell lan workplace higher sun nfs higher wollongong pathway access higher disk space mbytes mbyte mbyte floppy needed features mit compliant with age extensions hotkeys dos and windows passive telnet rsh rexec xdmcp startup modes motif openlook and decwindows support virtual screen support international keyboard support full font library snf format bdf snf font compiler complete documentation support and update service optimized for tiga graphics accelerators dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows desqview vendor melinda quarterdeck office systems inc pico boulevard santa monica tel fax price latest version cpu higher version available memory mbytes recommended operating system dos higher dos higher mouse compatible pointing device graphics ega vga super vga color dgis ati tseng tseng genoa pvga some revisions headland vega and headland vga ethernet card network software disk space mbyte hard drive features incorporates into the desqview multi tasking dos environment adds graphical look and feel desqview gives users choice window managers look and feels provides growth path from character mode dos industry standard graphical user interfaces runs most regular dos applications runs dos extended applications gbytes can display dos applications within graphical windows multitasks dos applications and clients either locally remotely provides simple port applications from other systems desqview and vice versa gives developers choice application appearances based toolkit chosen supports toolkits that provide features required developers such push buttons scrollbars pop dialogue boxes etc can run dos text and windows graphics programs locally and remotely adobe type manager for scalable fonts and scalable dos windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows excursion for windows vendor digital equipment corporation maynard massachusetts price latest version cpu memory mbytes operating system dos windows later mouse windows supported mouse graphics windows supported card ethernet card network software decnet with pathworks for dos tcp with pathworks for dos tcp tcp with tcp from ftp software inc tcp with com tcp with demand protocol architecture disk space mbytes hard desk kbyte mbyte floppy drive features seperate application windows for each applicatioon displayed the server excursion setup utility for installing excursion under windows control panes provides easy way start applications and customize environment online help ability cut and paste text graphics between and windows ability compile new fonts ability redefine keys the keyboard personal password security access excursion three button mouse emulation microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows exodus for windows vendor white pine software inc simon street suite nashua tel fax email sdarling wpine com applelink whitepine price latest version cpu memory mbytes mbytes recommended operating system dos windows higher mouse recommended graphics ega vga svga dgis ethernet card most cards network software disk space features color and monochrome screen support including bit truecolor backing store and save under options full xdmcp support access control support online help button mouse emulation text and graphics transfers between windows and macintosh clipboards microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows hcl exceed vendor hummingbird communications ltd john street unit markham ontario canada tel fax price copy copies copies more copies latest version cpu memory mbytes more recommended operating system dos windows version standard and enhanced modes mouse compatible pointing device graphics ega vga vga ethernet card any compatible with the networking product you choose network software disk space features makes full use and other high resolution graphics cards redesigned for windows not implementation mit copy paste between windows and windows interactive configuration utility full interactive support for font naming alias schemes font compiler log file host generated messages backing store and save unders virtual screen support seven start methods full support for european keyboards font host access rgb databases loading protocol trace dissassembly functionality microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows micro win vendor starnet communications lawrence expressway santa clara tel fax micro starnet com prices micro win unit pack greater discount for larger quantities upgrades original price educational discount latest version for release cpu memory mbytes operating system dos higher windows higher mouse button with compatible driver graphics windows supported cards ethernet card com com etherlink cabletron micom interlan western digital novell national semiconductor boards that have their own packet driver from manufacturer network software included lanera tcpopen winsock compatible network software supported ftp software tcp lanera tcpopen sun nfs winsock compatible tcp stacks disk space mbytes mbyte mbyte needed features integrated rsh rexec with displayed results auto start with xdmcp rsh rexec easy additional session start panning supports motif open look and decwindows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows multiview vendor jsb computer systems ltd cheshire house castle street macclesfield cheshire england tel jsb corporation whispering pines drive suite scotts valley california tel fax price latest version cpu memory operating system dos windows mouse graphics ethernet card network software direct connections modem connections atlantix axcess beame whiteside tcp link tcp for dos ftp tcp arpa services for dos ibm aix access for dos users icl oslan int locus pci locus tcp for dos lan manager for unix lan manager for unix ncr token ring novell lan workplace for dos sco xenix net sun nfs ungermann bass net one ungermann bassnet one netci int wollongong pathway access dos wollongong win tcp for dos com open tcp disk space features provides character server for character applications emulation for dec dec dec sco unix xenix console open ansi interactive unix console unix console automatically invokes the server when client selected passive telnet rsh rexec and xdmcp startup modes supported full font library provided standard windows format bdf windows compiler copy and paste text available single iconic desktop microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows xview vendor network computing devices inc xdivision gemini drive beaverton tel fax there are also ncd technical and sales offices around the united states and other international offices price xview for windows for for annual maintenance for for update for for latest version cpu recommended memory mbytes mbytes recommended operating system dos dos higher windows windows mouse recommended but not needed graphics any compatible with windows ethernet card network software needed tcp decnet disk space mbytes mbytes recommended features runs windows applications alongside clients cut and paste between clients and windows applications using the windows clipboard full support features including the shape extension off loads graphics processing from host computers runs both standard and enhanced modes windows manages clients with standard remote window manager with windows full fonts provided including fonts for sun open windows and decwindows windows based compiler that converts bitmap description format bdf fonts windows format fon fonts windows based file transfer program prints files from remote host your local printer built client starter windows based installation and configuration ddl support for network interfaces easy installation procedures display manager control protocol xdmcp support support for multiple tcp network packages comprehensive and well organized user guide graphics cut paste virtual screen support support the xremote protocol developed ncd microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows vista exceed vendor control data corporation vista distributing computing largo drive west suite landover tel price vista exceed latest version cpu memory mbytes for windows server operating system dos higher windows mouse button compatible mouse windows supported mouse graphics ega vga svga any supported windows ethernet card any supported tcp transports listed below network software tcp network software for dos ftp software inc nfs sun microsystems inc win tcp for dos the wallongong group inc pathway access for dos the wallongong group inc lan workplace tcp transport system novell excelan open tcp com corporation arpa services hewlett packard corporation net one tcp bns ungermann bass inc bwnfs telnet package beame whiteside software ltd disk space hard disk features can may mbytes available for client processing emulates button mouse with button mouse full interactive support for font names and alias schemes locally modify keyboard mapping microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows vendor intergrated inference machines inc computer products division east katella avenue anaheim tel and fax price latest version cpu memory kbytes base memory mbytes extended memory operating system dos later windows later mouse graphics any graphics card and that supports windows ega vga resolution better are recommended cga color graphics adapter compaq portable iii portable plasma display ega with high resolution color display ega whith low resolution color display hercules with high resolution monochrome display ibm display olivetti monochrome pvc display olivetti oec display wyse high resolution monochrome moniterm viking monochrome vga video graphics array ethernet card also compatible with excelan com ungermann bass western digital tiara iim pac and others network software either excelan tcp driver set ftp inc tcp driver set not included with disk space least mbytes storage capacity available for software excluding optional fonts use all fonts supplied with total mbytes required features concurrent dos windows operation concurrent windows telnet operation cut paste utility ftp utility font compiler for user developed fonts telnet and ftp utilities included compatible with the following ftp software programs when not operated under windows ftp the file transfer protocol client ftpsev the file transfer protocol server interdrive the network file system nfs ping network test tnvt the telnet virtual terminal client microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows one vendor grafpoint saratoga avenue san jose tel pst fax uunet grafpnt sales price free demo copies latest version cpu memory mbytes operating system dos higher windows mouse button mouse graphics vga super vga tiga vga boards with chip set ethernet card network software grafpoint tcp included disk space features screen setup builtin tcp supports local clients such telnet window setup window rsh window local window manager dos and windows versions one product hot key dos days telephone technical support microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows xvision vendor visionware limited white pine badging xvision cardigan lane exodus for windows leeds simon street suite united kingdom nashua tel tel fax fax sdarling wpine com applelink whitepine vware visionware price users users users users users users users educational discounts available adding user where least are installed xremote support per bundled upgrade full documentation evaluation copy latest version cpu memory mbytes mbytes recommended operating system dos later windows later mouse recommended but not required graphics windows compatible graphics ethernet card network software ftp tcp excelan lan workplace for dos locus tcp for dos ungermann bass net one tcp wollongong win tcp for dos beame whiteside tcp sun nfs lan manager arpa services for dos com open disk space inch high density inch high density features copy and paste between and windows use host window manager allow windows control clients support for all color classes staticgray grayscale staticcolor pseudocolor truecolor and directcolor several user options for performance enhancement release server fonts and server extensions including xdmcp icccm compliant clients may also use windows fonts easy configuration the system via dialog boxes provides the functionality three button mouse support for all international keyboards supported windows host access control network aware setup and line help iconic control panel for configuring xvision dynamic server optimizations xvision runs tests the install time see how best draw the display support for ncd xremote decnet shape extension bit color windows font managers all color classes rsh rexec microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows xoftware vendor age logic inc pacific heights blvd san diego tel fax email sales age com bert shure tel ext email bert age com age bert ucsd edu price with tcp latest version cpu memory mbytes extended operating system dos higher windows higher mouse windows compatible mouse graphics card with windows driver ethernet card network software beame whiteside tcp higher ftp tcp higher dec pathworks higher arpa services higher novell lan workplace higher sun nfs higher ungermann bass net one tcp higher wollongong pathway access higher wollongong win tcp higher com open tcp higher disk space mbytes mbyte mbyte floppy needed features mit compliant with age extensions context sensitive line help system cut and paste between and windows start applications with windows icons single and multiple window modes window manager used with applications virtual screen passive telnet rsh rexec and xdmcp startup modes backing store and save unders motif openlook and decwindows support full font library fon format bdf windows fon font compiler log file optionally saves system messages tutorial the window system microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows ibm windows for vendor ibm solutions center voice ibm call fax price plus for ibm tcp for required latest version version part number windows tcp cpu higher memory mbytes recommended minimum operating system ibm higher mouse compatible pointing device graphics ega vga super vga xga other supported card ethernet card compatible with ndis network software ibm tcp required disk space mbyte hard drive features incorporates into the advanced operating system provides full server font library font compiler client utilities runs another object the workplace shell wps desktop cut and paste between dos and windows applications running under full tcp implementation including ftp telnet lamail ping finger slip rsh remote printing bootp and many more other modules available including nfs programmer toolkit includes kerberos rpc dpi ncs ftp api sockets api resolver api and more macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh exodus vendor white pine software inc simon street suite nashua tel fax email sdarling wpine com applelink whitepine price latest version cpu all macintosh computers exodus runs macintosh computers with processor and floating point processor memory mbytes operating system version later version later you plan use communications toolbox for network connections mouse graphics ethernet card network software tcp mactcp apple computer inc part commsolutions tcp tcport lan workplace novell inc formerly tcport host access decnet tssnet thursby software systems inc special version distributed part commsolutions decnet community mac distributed everex inc decnet decnet for macintosh part pathworks digital equipment corporation adsp pathworks distributed digital equipment corporation appletalk disk space features supports multifinder under clients and server run the macintosh under macintosh operating system clients run another computer conforms the macintosh human interface guidelines user standard macintosh pull down menus functions macintosh program under the macintosh operating system handles macintosh events can use normal macintosh environment macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macx vendor apple computer inc cupertino tel tlx any apple dealer businessland microage etc price macx order macx manual set order macx update product order mac and site license order latest version cpu any macintosh memory mbytes operating system system software later mouse graphics bit and bit graphics ethernet card network software localtalk ethernet disk space least two floppy disks for later mbytes hard disk tor features release server icccm compatible cut and paste text and graphics between the macintosh and shape extension including shaped windows the macintosh desktop optional built icccm compliant window manager built bdf font compiler built standard colormaps built window managers support for system software version support for multiple monitors copy and paste text and graphics macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga unknown vendor price latest version cpu memory operating system mouse graphics ethernet card network software disk space features amiga machines offer server and open look tools and libraries full svr implementation amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga window system version release for the amiga computer vendor gfxbase inc dale luck ellwell drive milpitas tel fax usenet boing dale bix duck amiga boing dale bloom beacon mit edu price yearly maintenance fee latest version cpu amigados computer memory mbyte for server and color display more ram required for local clients operating system amigados operating system later mouse amiga button mouse optical button mouse tablet trackball international keyboard graphics ntsc pal overscan genlock and interlace supported viking super screens scrollable smaller display productivity screen noninterlaced interlaces two colors out palette can selected cursor has two separately controlled colors color server colors from viking gray scales some resolutions restricted gda noninterlaced ameristar noninterlaced ethernet card commodore network software commodore tcp syndesis decnet for ethernet and serial connections sana for local disk space mbytes features contains clients fonts etc amiga xpr uses the standard amiga printer device technology which supports more that different types printers black and white color xamiga monochrome and color servers optional programmer toolkit includes the header files libraries and sample programs optional mwm window manager optional toolkits widgets motif xview amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga atari atari atari atari atari atari atari atari atari atari atari atari atari tos window server and tos window server color vendor software michael gehret tos division marktstrasse groenenbach germany tel fax email xtosinfo xsoft uucp price tos window server for all tos computers tos window server color for all tos computers option for processors only tos window server color option and option pex overseas order handling none european order handling latest version cpu atari mega ste memory mbytes mbytes recommended operating system tos higher mouse atari mouse graphics tos window server monochrome monochrome tos window server color monochrome monochrome color color color color ethernet card atari card mega vme bus riebl wacker mega vme bus end enclosure peter mckinney longs lance colostate edu electrohydrodynamic laboratory fluid mechanics and wind engineering program civil engineering department colorado state university
comp.windows.x	xview sun xgl performance problem written application for sparcstation under openwindows the application uses xview stuff create window and the sun xgl graphics library for rendering into the canvas the application does real time animation but does not update the the display fast enough using notify set itimer xview call periodically kick off update routine and not happening fast enough want update times second only doing about also appears compute bound because run anything else while appplication the update rate slows down even more any ideas thanks
comp.windows.x	dump login screen running with vue and need hardcopy the login window the one asking for login and password include manual have tried xwd display hostname root out login xwd from login remote terminal but doesn work xwd seems wait for the window server but the window server doesn answer any suggestions must use xwd because don have access ftp and can obtain another program grab the screen thanks advance nadia pitacco nadia pitacco siap sistemi via grassi milano italy mail morgaine siap sublink org
comp.windows.x	looking for windows mark taylor uucp mark davis writes markw pspmf gpsemi com mark wilkinson ext writes but your performance will suck lemons running xserver clone from experience you would much better off with xterminal this new install the performance will least four times better addition would much easier install and use top that they will cost about the same price clone with ram ethernet card very high performance graphics card good monitor server software tcp for clone software mouse keyboard etc etc etc you spend whole lot can get tektronix terminals for under and the performance over xstones mark davis lake taylor hospital norfolk sys administrator computer services mark taylor mark taylor uucp think your performance will depend upon the server running linux and xfree mhz with ram swap and runs just fine its lot better than some the crappy old xterminals the labs school anyway you could probably outfit with minimal linux setup for and better off than with xterminal imho scott scott farrow student sysadmin programmer university colorado computing network services boulder colorado usa phone internet farrow spot colorado edu linux users for free
comp.windows.x	xterm fonts article may taylor uucp mark taylor uucp mark davis writes have problem which many you might have run into use lots ascii terminals and use them the max meaning lots attributes line draw etc now what need come with working xterm which will emulate our advanced ascii terminals closely possible this means needing all attributes work including bold and line drawing the only fonts which seem meet these criteria are pairs fonts which one bold and the other normal while both have linedraw fixed spacing and several sizes the only standard fonts which work are the fonts like and under misc they work great except need font one size larger now works well but there bold counterpart make matters worse need the fonts some form can use for tektronix xterminals seems they like pcf format although should able convert bdf format anyone have any suggestions mark davis lake taylor hospital norfolk sys administrator computer services mark taylor mark taylor uucp this would tedious but you have the time you could get the bdf file can email you you don have don have easy access the source and could make your own bold font from this since each glyph just bitmap you could write program convert each glyph bitmap readable file use bitmap make each glyph bold and convert the results back bdf format then use bdftopcf create the pcf file then stick the pcf usr lib fonts misc wherever and include fonts dir and voila you have what you need ernie coskrey ncr corporation mcpd columbia ernie coskrey columbiasc ncr com platt springs road west columbia out there busting buns every night tell your old man drag walton and lanier and down the court for minutes roger murdoch pilot
comp.windows.x	twm article may samba oit unc edu naoumov physics unc edu sergei naoumov writes run twm and would like execute some program before leaving twm other words would like run some program before quit possible make menu section which would contain these two parts your menu definition put quit twm function execute and quit then define function execute and quit some program quit barry margolin system manager thinking machines corp barmar think com uunet harvard think barmar
comp.windows.x	how draw invert mode with color how can draw object specified color over objects varying colors and then erase without having redraw everything else what happening this draw using gxcopy drawn the specified color erase using gxcopy with foreground and background reversed erases whatever overlayed then need redraw all the items crossed yuch draw using gxinvert drawn random color nothing resembling what requested properly restores the color underlying objects erase mode what the solution scott frost uucp osu cis chemabs scott frost same mbox bitnet skf cas inet scott frost cas org personal shrewsbury upper arlington
comp.windows.x	syncronous modal dialog have lots problems using xview libraries release order the following want create modal dialog which block the program flow syncronous dialog ala macintosh the notice panel does but with text item list item and other xview objects the modal dialog also must allows the timer called why notice doesn that the problems are using the window loop functions most xview objects dont work the list item and the timers aren called with the notify dispatch explicit have problem because never attempt direct dispaching from within callback routine say the xview programming manual third edition page uhm know this number but need dispatching just inside callback routine help please thanks advance giovanni please send replay directly address belove haven direct access internet giovanni beani list dei facchini pisa fax email address list applelink apple com beware this address shared many users put the word gbeani the start subject field and follow the real subject thanks
comp.windows.x	looking for windows article may qdeck com support qdeck com technical support writes may humbly suggest desqview course biased have weird oddball one kind video card orchid fahrenheit get run with dvx least don have worry about straining eyes with that super vga stuff
comp.windows.x	sun terminal xkernel available for sun there similar package available this public domain yes where can one obtain copy from yes available ftp ctr columbia edu probably pub xkernel response the earlier gentlemans question you could theoretically recompile xkernel sun the binaries available are for the sun but the author says could used most architectures and does have yourself type distribution use xkernel for about machines here email you have any questions can help you with greg owen gowen forte tufts edu gowen jade tufts edu systems programmer and tufts university computer science dept personal info gcs
comp.windows.x	online help motif widget article may serval net wsu edu bucky pnl gov pelkey writes looking for online help motif widgets public domain otherwise run sun sparc especially interested help widgets that can integrate hypertext help graphics etc anybody know any widgets like this text graphics bristol technologies has help clone mswindows help frame makers framemaker has frameview text only graphical software technology has xtra widgets includes help there are probably others check out ics widget data book actually wrote one for the last company worked for however locked their internal reuse library was good one too imho and totally unbiased view things bill scott bills feeninx metronet com graphics consultant american airlines
comp.windows.x	ics widget data book does anyone know how can obtain information about the ics widget data book only have their email address and they don seem reading replying their mail jan olav eide software engineer systems administrator snail mail email nordic offshore systems olav nordic offshore drilling information services voice ringsveien box ext stabekk fax norway don believe astrology but then capricorn and capricorns don believe astrology jan olav eide software engineer systems administrator snail mail email nordic offshore systems olav nordic offshore
comp.windows.x	geometry font units place pixels planning convert motif app from pixel font units which would all set the app resource file instead hard coded the program however the word here from people who tried this already that for some unknown reason xmform offsets placed the resource file are still interpreted pixel units forcing people code those offset font units into the program can somebody confirm this thanks joe pannon pannon bcsfse boeing com
comp.windows.x	button popup menus with athena widgets being driven batty trying create popup menus button press and menu appears would really like use the standard athena classes achieve this goal but for best attempts cannot get the menus come without using menubutton the parent the widget tree know this should possible with xtpopupspringloaded and little twiddling but something escaping name david koblas domain koblas netcom com affiliation extra mile consulting phone quote time has little with infinity and jelly donuts
comp.windows.x	tool convert gif file xpm pixmap format need the tool described the subject line there such tool available via ftp appreciate someone could mail the location and pathname thanks saad mufti personal library software mail mufti pls com
comp.windows.x	ignorant imake xfig question folks trying compile xfig running sunos and and having little trouble with make imake specifically make bombs when needs use any xaw file this isn surprising since files suns with the standard distribution are various places under usr openwin xaw files are usr openwin share include xaw actually the real problem that know squat about imake and don know how tell imake where the files are can see from the makefile that looking the wrong places but the first line the makefile reads makefile generated imake not edit help there some way can edit the imakefile tell where look have set defines dopenwin bug said the readme file email and post are both fine thanks advance dave
comp.windows.x	solbourne netters having inherited solbourne sun compatible was wondering somebody has ported this beast since solbournce computer inc folded don know where can get the kernel move from since they never joined the mit consortium the regular distribution doesn work any pointers will highly appreciated julian julian anigbogu loria loria
comp.windows.x	screen saver have question which not directly related screen saver what screen saver does blank the screen has been idle for some time don want screen blank but get locked call xlock program there parallel call xsetscreensaver which locks screen call lock program after certain amount idle time there way find out how long the server has been idle thanks vadi vadi csi com
comp.windows.x	looking for windows article wlij bailgate gpsemi com wilkinson roborough gpsemi com writes all this the first time posted the net hope this going the right people looking for software packages that run ibm clone that allows display openlook and motif windows the highly recommend starnet micro they have versions for dos and windows with support for tcp the clarkson packet drivers have used successfully with twm mwm and olwm over both ethernet and slip and their tech support top notch they really impressed kevin kevin jarnot jarnot kin lap upenn edu the monkey boys are evil lead programmer analyst keyboardist lord whorfin supreme univ pennsylvania language analysis center market suite phila vita non jerk
comp.windows.x	uimx motif application generator article may xact demon ptm xact demon paul thomas mahoney writes newsgroups comp windows path linus mitre org linus agate howland reston ans net torn nott bnrgate bnr uknet warwick qmw dcs qmw demon xact demon ptm from ptm xact demon paul thomas mahoney organization act solutions limited newsreader tin date tue may gmt lines looking information regarding uimx believe this application front end generator tool for motif among others whould someone given contact need get hold the programmers guide something like paul mahoney act solutions limited smail shipley lane cooden bexhill sea east sussex email ptm xact demon pmahoney cix compulink phone went the xworld convention and talked the people from bluestone who make uimx they sent huge ring binder info and demo tape let know what you need steve chase schase xodus mitre org
comp.windows.x	looking for windows longs lance colostate edu peter mckinney writes price xview for dos for for ncd just announced new generation xview they changed the name little though and can remember exactly xsomething now supports windows and their press release implies that since still priced the range and feature full why buy anything else disclaimer this not direct quote from the literature but think sums also have never used the product
comp.windows.x	how make window input all caps without caps lock application must use requires upper case input like able simply move cursor into the window where that application running just text window xterm some such and have everything type entered all caps when the cursor any many other windows want automatically return normal functionality have point type set there way this specifically sparcs there way mess with xdefaults make category window this any hints would most appreciated program but not although can pick somthing that not too involved thanks kindly kevin weinrich computer sciences corp kbw helios ath epa gov
comp.windows.x	resource listing for does anyone know source book file etc all the standard resource names small description what the resource would also helpful but not vital any help which direction would greatly appreciated thanks robin kinzy office home brigham young university college engineering technology robin kinzy clyde building provo provo phone phone email rrk bones byu edu bruce owen lee will pay the price brigham young university but will not count the cost college engineering technology email lee bones byu edu rush
comp.windows.x	announce commoninteract development sys commoninteract another user interface development system you would like implement toolkit applications with style like this mini sample application class test public xmwindow void cmd char void quit void public test xmwindow test window void initialize void test initialize xmdropdownmenu menu createdropdownmenu menu addlabel file menu additems entry menu item one test cmd entry menu item two test cmd nullentry menu addseparator menu additem entry xit test quit addsubpane edit myedit edit myedit settext hello world void test cmd char edit myedit settext void test quit void exit void xmapp initialize new test initialize then continue reading contents the current release readme user interface framework for the language built upon and the toolkit designed simple and intuitive programming interface access the functionality commonly used widgets was initially created for the motif widget set now support for the athena widgets was added applications created with run both environments without changes although many nice features are only available when using motif some situations extends the underlying toolkit providing combobox borrowed from windows but never tries replace data user interface objects left the widgets and only duplicated rare cases has nothing common with motif besides the general idea encapsulate motif widgets objects and the name many ideas for the architecture came from digitalk smalltalk version which provides easy use framework for windows mac applications the very first time development used the windows dialog editor and simple parser create similar smalltalk and dialogs top level objects windows systemdialogs and toolboxes which use the automatic layout feature various composite widgets motif and xaw userdialogs which can individually laid out with user interface builder first version such dialog editor included this distribution controls children top level objects statictext staticimage pushbutton checkbox radiobutton edit listbox combobox groupbox panearea drawing toolbar the staticimage and all the button classes can display bitmap format color gif format pictures alternative label text event handling done simple but powerful mechanism which redirects callbacks member functions objects commoninteract built upon the drawing class and provides components for building direct manipulative applications very simplified implementation some features from the commoninteract system research project our institute approach define software achitecture for implementing direct manipulative applications with multiple interaction media sound alternative input devices you are interrested look into the june issue the joop sigs publications journal object oriented programming there should our paper about commoninteract but aware that our state the art from commoninteract still undocumented and included because was used implement the dialog editor currently supports only drawing primitives lines rectangles circles but plan extend support bitmaps and some controls also known problem the drawing class has redrawing strategy always redraws the whole window even after minimal changes like selecting object this looks very ugly slow displays and should fixed about this first release still incomplete and has lot bugs but are using here for smaller applications which are running without problems think can call beta release which can used develop applications for any non critical purposes commoninteract may called pre alpha release development will continued this year because plan use for another research project here besides incompleteness and the redrawing problem seems stable and can used for experimental applications platforms this release was compiled and tested running sun sparc running sunos release running linux caution although the whole stuff was initially developed using standard compiler this release tested only with gnu above the next release will tested with both compilers where get have uploaded export lcs mit edu contrib tar send mail you cannot find there mail addr below where find more information the doc directory contains install how build the libraries and examples readme gnu problems and limitations when using gnu read usersguide txt tutorial how use reference txt first try class reference manual the readme files the samples gives brief description each the seven samples commoninteract free software for any non profit purposes see the file lib copyright for details send any comments bug reports and donations the author bernhard strassl vienna user interface group institute for applied computer science and information systems university vienna lenaugasse wien austria mail xmplus ani univie
comp.windows.x	xterm hello looking for good explanation and example the usefulness the option for xterm slave mode file descriptor xxx sure but xterm does not seem grab what arrives window where misunderstan ding tia fred frederic pierre ensps lsit rue universite strasbourg france tel fax mail fred sobel strasbg hamradio hfd
comp.windows.x	looking for windows article may taylor uucp mark taylor uucp mark davis writes farrow ucsu colorado edu scott farrow writes mark taylor uucp mark davis writes markw pspmf gpsemi com mark wilkinson ext writes but your performance will suck lemons running xserver clone have clone almost with name generating xstones mhz system can get tektronix terminals for under and the performance over xstones running linux and xfree mhz with ram swap and runs just fine its lot better than some the crappy old xterminals the labs school anyway you will not come even close the performance series plus you excuse but with cache isa card running bsd you can get xstones mhz which doubt that your series gets commerical verions servers for cards can get xstones the performance there and additionally since running unix multiple users can use the system which have done home setup maintenance minimal you can read readme files for the servers and for bsd amancio hasty this message brought you the letters and and the number amancio hasty home ftp site depository all work mail hasty netcom com sunvis rtpnc epa gov pub bsd incoming
comp.windows.x	tvtwm icon manager article risky convergent com sxs extol convergent com sridhar writes keywords tvtwm icon manager need help resource bindings for tvtwm here what like see the icon manager say iconify window and this shows the icon list now when pan into another section the virtual desktop and try deiconify the window that iconed earlier like this window deiconify the current region any resources that can use this more important can this rather find painful remember where iconified window back there and deiconify simply pain pan around get deiconified window thanks ssridhar convergent com just opened the distribution
comp.windows.x	any way stop and application from titling quite familiar with variety window title setting methods question there any way via resources etc stop application ability name own name iconname properties who cares not nice the application want control mike mike hoswell hoswell ncar ucar edu never stop toasted bagels climate and global dynamics disclaimer represent myself only ncar box boulder got that going for which nice think clearly
comp.windows.x	help just beginning try using the athena toolkit and having some problems getting started think that some files are missing the system but there the possibility that they are just different directory when try link program can find xtinitailize xtrealizewidget xtmainloop xtcreatemanagedwidget commandwidgetclass included intrinsic and command also had problem compile with xtncallback but replaced that with null order compile and see there were any other problems haven used toolkit before and this simply example got from the manuel can someone tell where might look for these calls that what file not what directory they are supposed under because the system manager doesn believe standard directories and generally does things his own way using unix thank you for your assistance adamsson
comp.windows.x	xdec server and decstation sans decnet has anybody built server that can run personal decstation line with ultrix the only catch that being personal machines did not install decnet onto them which the xdec server gatekeeper requires any replies welcome joe shelby stu jwshelby vax acs jmu edu
comp.windows.x	uimx motif application generator thanks for all the responses made contact with the distributor paul mahoney act solutions limited smail shipley lane cooden bexhill sea east sussex email ptm xact demon pmahoney cix compulink phone
comp.windows.x	blinking cursor xterm article may griffin itc edu michaelw itc edu writes does anyone have any ideas that may implemented help prevent users from losing sight the cursor xterm window under certain circumstances where there are many screen based fields what would like make the cursor flash off but far haven found way doing has anybody else had similar problems fixes make cursor stand out more than the standard type users can find the cursor run xneko turn the cursor into mouse rodent variety your users still can find the cat will greg earle phone fax internet earle isolar tujunga uucp isolar earle elroy jpl nasa gov elroy isolar earle
comp.windows.x	search for decent based text editor article innr dimebox utexas edu spatel utexas edu semir patel writes looking for decent based text editor for the the following reasons hate emacs hate hate xedit coming from based environment having been brought borland excellent turbo pascal environments something with the following properties would fit the bill pull down menus accelerator keys multiple windows mouse aware regular exp support mappable key bindings easy use and most important all free does such beast exist sure sounds like axe michael salmon include standard disclaimer include witty saying include fancy pseudo graphics ericsson telecom stockholm
comp.windows.x	blinking cursor xterm may ims com tonyf ims com antonio freixas writes article may taylor uucp mark taylor uucp mark davis writes boy have wanted this too however believe that the cursor will under the server control could wrong xterminal for example the server was not the one controlling the cursor then trying get the xterm application the blinking would cause needless and yucky network overhead consistantly most people who write cursor blinking code just implement the simple case straight msec off cycle however the cursor will work much better cursor blinking suppressed the cursor made visible any time the cursor moves and for sec thereafter you don this the cursor will hard track when motion you allways could port and use emu from export lcs mit edu contrib emu tar implemented blinking text cursor for the very reasons people mentioned you can even configure the actual size the text cursor horizontal ver tical line cursors smaller block cursors turn and off blinking set the blink rate and you even get blinking text enough advertising haven looked the xterm code this respect but from the memories have when had decide whether start with xterm and make what wanted mostly the blinking text say won easy since xterm hairy mess understandable you follow roots back the actual task get the cursor blink isn that difficult you provide the right hooks antonio mentioned you have show the cursor directly after has moved people will become confused since good idea take the cursor off the screen when you anything screen anyways this isn very complicated you just have start the blink process with the cursor showing directly after mapped for the portability emu and newest version the one export still the same the contrib tape wanted get out new release for over six months now but unfortunately drowning work but since the changes aren affectiong emu behavior much say whoever wants try emu shouldn wait for new version emu won work bsd derived systems suns with anything else than csh there fix this which very short remove one line code put this export today michael michael elbel digital pcs gmbh muenchen germany dude pcs com intelligenz sowieso nur wat fuer doofe mia fermentation fault coors dumped
comp.windows.x	problems with xdm under solaris sunbim danny backx writes yes that bug the port xterm you sometimes get this when you start from xdm have reported this casper but don know whether made into his set patches yet basically mit clients xterm main there test line which checks errno after attempting open dev tty add the errno einval case and you should fine actually bug the solaris kernel could add workaround xterm open should never return einval but does didn have time update the sunos patch lately but non the existing problems seem warrant new set patches since xsession bourne shell script anyway you might well add line etc timezone done etc profile xdm coulda also keep the xdm environment variable should have inherited from the environment casper
comp.windows.x	patch for under solaris cfl buc edu colin linahan writes sorry this faq but could someone please tell where can get the patch for that can compile under solaris export lcs mit edu contrib sunos patch tar get xsun multi screen tar while you casper
comp.windows.x	looking for windows article boutilie graphite boutilie rtsg mot com eric boutilier writes longs lance colostate edu peter mckinney writes price xview for dos for for ncd just announced new generation xview they changed the name little though and can remember exactly xsomething now supports windows and their press release implies that since still priced the range and feature full why buy anything else disclaimer this not direct quote from the literature but think sums also have never used the product called xware based ncd ware their terminal software which imho excellent xware will include remote and optimized for bit machines based will support remote management etc not ncd employee just fan edward gallant iii georgia tech station atlanta georgia mail egallant gatech edu phone
comp.windows.x	and sun works but not the screen hello have problem with sun hope that someone can help with built from the mit sources after applying all patches have got think building was easy after installing everything started but nothing happened but the screen and the keyboard freezed the machine seemed hang loged from another machine found the sun running well told that there server and xterm running and with some experimenting with the mouse and repeatedly pressing blindly hit the xterm endet the session and got prompt back guess device problem but did not find the correct device yet got sun with framebuffer ace rev sunos and rom please help able run clients the sun and send the output other machines but that not what did for thanks advance stefan
comp.windows.x	monitor freq requirment for xfree repost need some advice regarding monitor use with xfree have based graphic card with meg memory know this card supported xfree because friend mine has one these his his monitor colour capable displaying resolution cant afford this kind expensive monitor heard from somewhere that xfree requires multisync monitor with minimum horizontal scan frequency khz this true would only like use xfree resolution colours and was thinking buying cheap svga monitor interlaced cheap svga monitors only have have maximum horizontal scan frequency about khz will this kind monitor work with xfree please reply email thaks advance arshad arshad mahmood tel siemens nixdorf information systems limited fax siemens nixdorf house email arshad sni oldbury bracknell berkshire england
comp.windows.x	color tektronics term emulation does anyone know based terminal emulator which can emulate color tektronics graphics terminal such tek tek etc
comp.windows.x	dos windows posting this request again since the last one had title looking for server software dos windows already seen desqview and xvision but would like aware other solutions namely public domain shareware implementations also like know the commercial case about possible problems incompatibilities available window managers and libraries etc you have any experiences this area please let know mario valente
comp.windows.x	button popup menus with athena widgets being driven batty trying create popup menus button press and menu appears would really like use the standard athena classes achieve this goal but for best attempts cannot get the menus come without using menubutton the parent the widget tree know this should possible with xtpopupspringloaded and little twiddling but something escaping read the documentation for the simplemenu positioning the simplemenu the reference the documentation had not done this before but less than mins knocked the following wcl application that does what you want using command widget even you are not familiar with wcl the example simple should pretty obvious what going the crucial thing the use the xawpositionsimplemenu and menupopup actions ari wcchildren app app wccreate command app wcpopups menu app translations override btn down xawpositionsimplemenu menu menupopup menu menu wccreate simplemenu menu wcchildren one two three one wccreate smebsb two wccreate smebsb three wccreate smebsb jim wight newcastle department computing science university newcastle tel newcastle upon tyne united kingdom fax
comp.windows.x	copyrights there will always zillion lawyers who they get paid well enough will sue your brains out gosh can anyone send them off another planet well maybe would better just send apple microsoft and few others that way would get rid some terrible products well jda nada kth drag drop dead johan danielsson
comp.windows.x	seeking simple article may nenuphar saclay cea basile soleil serma cea basile starynkevitch writes seeking simple window manager icccm compliant with minimal doc don want twm gwm twm whatever happened uwm still available some form been years since used heard anyone talk about paul pmartz dsd com evans sutherland
comp.windows.x	looking for windows hasty netcom com amancio hasty writes but your performance will suck lemons running xserver clone have clone almost with name generating xstones mhz system show the realistic price tag can get tektronix terminals for under and the performance over xstones excuse but with cache isa card running bsd you can get xstones mhz which doubt nice but way over point price performance not just performance mark davis lake taylor hospital norfolk sys administrator computer services mark taylor mark taylor uucp
comp.windows.x	looking for windows article may labtam labtam graeme labtam labtam graeme gill writes article hastyc zgqc fux netcom com hasty netcom com amancio hasty writes but your performance will suck lemons running xserver clone have clone almost with name generating xstones mhz system can get tektronix terminals for under and the performance over xstones you will not come even close the performance series plus you excuse but with cache isa card running bsd you can get xstones mhz which doubt this hardly apples apples try running the benchmark over network the clone and and you still getting xstones then you got good machine terminals aren just server you know graeme gill would further add that mbdisk going cost way more than probably color makes not apples apples too xterminals provide better price performance than pcs you can make much cheaper and perform much worse and you can make perform great and cost more you pay extra for the additional functinality and expandability for home user that extra functionality worth the added cost kelly murray
comp.windows.x	drop 
comp.windows.x	multi line greeting possible have xdm put multi line greeting how specify such thing the xresources file don have much anything for books can look thanks mark van overbeke systems software programmer computing services bitnet mark umnmor bitnet vms university minnesota morris internet mark caa mrs umn edu vms morris mark cda mrs umn edu ultrix success the progressive realization your worthwhile goal dream
comp.windows.x	colors and windows aicons extract from the color readme file for anthony icon library for network discussion color coordination tried start discussion comp windows the start the year about some sort standard color table that icons should follow say colors including colors for small grey scale but one responded all the problem that the colors for icons are just used willy nilly you will soon find that the workstations color table devotes itself solely the window manager icons and other adminstrative tasks instead applications that actually require the colors for proper working color needful applications such picture and graphic displayers animation real time video raytracers etc the following suggested color table for icons and general use icons window managers and general applications should follow this table something like unless the application color needful for each primary color red green blue three colors values and this results colors representing most the standard colors for use icons two extra shades grey vales black and white red other colors probably some primary color provide shading and look buttons and titlebars the window manager this table represents colors and represents large range posibilities for the above administrative services the workstation anthony thyssen sysprog griffith university anthony cit edu gods idea amusement snakes ladders game with greased rungs terry pratchett wyrd sisters
comp.windows.x	automatically configuring display variable ainman css itd umich edu andrew douglas inman writes does anyone out there know way have unix machine automatically set display variable that the xterm you using when not the machine that serving you the best been able come with has been rather convoluted script that extracts your from the whos command and frequently fails not mention that requires having your user name added andrew inman consultant itd consulting and support services ainman umich edu university michigan from own notes this subject methods automatically passwd authorization from one machine another this also includes the problem notifing the remote host the current display that being used use rsh rexec the method the xauth manual set the your rhosts file the home directory the remote machine that password not required remotly execute commands xauth extract display rsh other xauth merge this method also used xrsh pass authorization vampire program also uses variation however wrap part the remote command sequence xauth add auth included this method the use xrlogin and xrsh this job for you these programs usally the newer ones that allow you pass secified list environment variables which includes the display and copy the authorization code required the xon program available enabled sun machines will also pass environment variables well the current directory you will however required store the authority such variable for passing unless you are also have shared home directories warning environment variables and command line arguments are visible listing with the appropiate flags such passing authorization information environment variables arguments not recomended the recommended method given the manual shown above safe from the view other users wrap part the term environment variable this method uses the fact that most remote command executors pass the term environment variable the remote host then matter appropiate script your remote login file extract the information from the term environment variable and set things appropiatly version the xrlogin script available the network which does this basically you change the term environment variable before the actual call rlogin performed include your display and your authorization the remote machine you then extract this information and return the term environment variable normal before you use for reseting stty ing your terminal script for launching rlogin bin bin rlogin with display display then case display display hostname display esac term term display xauth nextract display export term rlogin add your cshrc login term then echo term then echo term cut xauth nmerge setenv display echo term cut setenv term echo term cut endif endif xterm command use xterm hostname bin hostname nfs write file shared nfs partition you have access note that the home directories are nfs mounted then authorization automatically passed hoever you will still have pass your display environment variable via file other means login host echo display host remote host setenv display cat host finger for the info plan file this involves encrypting the information into your plan project and having the remote machine finger for the information this has the disadvantage having the information anyone fingering the user thus requiring encryption method that uniq each individual the method decyrption must not shared known others nor should easy determine improvment use the who fingered technique only give the information only your own remote accounts and not just anyone who asking this last method was developed last year second year here untill explained him the need for the encryption which point gave this method however valid method easer than but less secure anthony thyssen sysprog griffith university anthony cit edu magic real unless declared integer john melvin
comp.windows.x	viewing postscript files under windows the subject ghostscript will also solve the earlier request converting postscript hpgl filter into interleaf david warren internet warren atmos washington edu uucp beaver atmos washington edu warren dept atmospheric sciences university washington decus pubs library committee representative sealug decus vice chair
comp.windows.x	vxt windowing terminal help from dennis hart date may cst hart tel dept ccsg scwa sas internet addressee smtp xpert expo lcs mit edu subject vxt windowing terminal help greetings have several vxt windowing terminals and associated software our network are able open lat terminal window any our workstation nodes but are unable get lat session work have customized the terminal security allow all lat connections trying invoke lat session from the vxt results the following message being displayed the terminal manager window message area host does not support sessions the host vax model and does support sessions opening lat terminal window and logging into the server node setting the display variable follows set display create node lat transport lat and then trying create decterm the vxt follows create term decterm detach fails and gives the following error message dectermport failed find language xopendisplay returned null decw cant open displ can open display the vxt using its system defaults default font language except for the security options allow all connections and options enabling lat protocol have windowing terminals and the above things were enough allow lat sessions vms version running decwindows motif vax model please help dennis hart atlantic research corporation directorate computer sciences eglin afb
comp.windows.x	need help compiling xtmenu having trouble compiling xtmenu running sparc ipc using sunos and openwindows getting undefined references arguments xtsetarg such xttextedit xttextread etc using the wrong version library missing include file any help would greatly appreciated jeff jeff whitmire man the best computer email jwhit wbst xerox com can put aboard spacecraft phone and the only one that snailmail salt road can mass produced with webster unskilled labor wernher von braun
comp.windows.x	seeking simple pmartz dsd com paul martz writes article basile soleil serma cea basile starynkevitch writes seeking simple window manager icccm compliant with minimal doc don want twm gwm twm whatever happened uwm still available some form been years since used heard anyone talk about positive that uwm isn icccm compliant you want the sources are still available export lcs mit edu pub kaleb
comp.windows.x	help with porting screensaver function this question aimed those who have done some server code hacking attempting add working savescreen function new server have been able get the screen blank out properly and through debugging can see that savescreen function being called with which for some arcane reason means blank the screen problem that this function never being called again with even after have moved the mouse and typed some keys question what likely missing that would cause this problem copied the basic design function from the existing versions static bool next savescreen scr screenptr scr bool this was copied from the omron server code the right way screen saver nextsetlasteventtime screen saver save user current setting next save screen brightness nxscreenbrightness eventhandle nxsetscreenbrightness eventhandle blank the screen else unblank the screen nxsetscreenbrightness eventhandle next save screen brightness return true can see the server code where the screensaver called turn the saver but cannot find where wakes the server and unblanks the screen any tips help would appreciated thanks douglas scott center for computer music research and composition university california santa barbara internet nextmail doug foxtrot ccmrc ucsb edu
comp.windows.x	blinking cursor xterm bernward moepi open bernward averwald writes yes don confuse the mouse cursor with the text cursor the xterms the latter only controlled the application back the days did analyse the xterm code the cursor was implemented drawing rectangle around the character doesn seem changed til now but you have the sources you could add blinking cursor via xtappaddtimeout similar app addtimeout doesn work xterm because despite appearances the contrary xterm not really based application other sources like timeouts and inputs are never checked xterm main loop don surprised when you try this and doesn work kaleb
comp.windows.x	ics widget data book article may nordic offshore olav nordic offshore jan olav eide writes does anyone know how can obtain information about the ics widget data book only have their email address and they don seem reading replying their mail ics integrated computer solutions incorporated broadway cambridge vox fax email info ics com circle reader service card mike mcgary mcgary intellection com intellection inc dallas texas vox fax
comp.windows.x	xterm fonts bernward moepi open bernward averwald writes article may taylor uucp mark taylor uucp mark davis writes have problem which many you might have run into use lots ascii terminals and use them the max meaning lots attributes line this means needing all attributes work including bold and line drawing the only fonts which seem meet these criteria are pairs fonts which one bold and the other normal while both have linedraw fixed spacing and several sizes the only standard fonts which work are the fonts like and under misc they work great except need font one size larger now works well but there bold counterpart you don need bold counterpart from man xterm font this option specifies font used when dis playing bold text this font must the same height and width the normal font only one the normal bold fonts specified will used the normal font and the bold font will produced overstriking this font the default overstriking the normal font have tried that with one font your xterm terminfos termcaps are set not remap bold which they are default reverse then nothing happens when bold displayed would appear least than you cannot display bold xterm without specifying two fonts normal and bold wish someone would prove that incorrect mark davis lake taylor hospital norfolk sys administrator computer services mark taylor mark taylor uucp
comp.windows.x	sun openwindows problem static linking and libraries build two executables for the same application let call them papp uses shared libs and spapp statically linked the problem that get problems when trying build the static one but not the dynamic one see the trace below btw the static one runs fine despite the ominous error message can someone clue why the static one bombs link time thanks very much sandiway sandiway fong nec research institute inc independence way princeton fax here the linking stage usr quintus bin sun start bstatic papp usr quintus generic qplib library sun libpl usr quintus generic qplib library sun libplm usr quintus bin sun libqp lsspkg lxpm usr local guide lib lguidexv lxvps lxview lolgx lxext lcps lpixrect spapp undefined xesetcreategc xesetfreefont xesetclosedisplay xeseterror xinitextension xesetfreegc xesetcopygc xesetcreatefont xesetflushgc xeseteventtowire xeseterrorstring xesetwiretoevent error code make fatal error command failed for target spapp ldd spapp spapp statically linked the shared lib version linked exactly the same way save for the omission bstatic ldd papp lsspkg usr local lib libsspkg lxpm usr local lib libxpm lxvps usr openwin lib libxvps lxview usr openwin lib libxview lolgx usr openwin lib libolgx usr openwin lib libx lcps usr openwin lib libcps usr lib libc lpixrect usr lib libpixrect ldl usr lib libdl
comp.windows.x	online help motif widget bucky pnl gov pelkey writes looking for online help motif widgets public domain otherwise run sun sparc especially interested help widgets that can integrate hypertext help graphics etc know that some the gui builders like galaxy come with online help widgets but need check into stand alone help widgets well seeing how have not picked gui tool yet anybody know any widgets like this resource issue thanh tma encore com
comp.windows.x	any way stop and application from titling article may colorado edu hoswell alumni colorado edu mike hoswell writes quite familiar with variety window title setting methods question there any way via resources etc stop application ability name own name iconname properties sorry that feature the icccm specifies how the app should set its title the obliged this bothers you complain the app writer who cares not nice the application want control write your own that doesn support the icccm write program that you give window and title the your program can set the windows title for the app and then the app changes your program switches back again mike mike hoswell hoswell ncar ucar edu never stop toasted bagels climate and global dynamics disclaimer represent myself only ncar box boulder got that going for which nice think clearly carl schmidtmann faultline software group inc karo court cws faultline com apple decwrl gigo cws sunnyvale
comp.windows.x	gui builders for vms looking for gui builders uims which run vms openvms environment interested both motif tools and gui independent tools such xvt client also requires that the tool has been production for least months the vms environment note that have the list tools from the faq but not the info vms availability thanks mark collier southwest research institute senior research analyst automation and data systems division voice data systems department fax software engineering section
comp.windows.x	xnlock xdm using xnlock the screensaver for based server however after interval activity session ends this does not happen when use xscreensaver screensave command fired from xsession like this xautolock time locker xnlock corners cornerdelay hypothesis that xdm use xdmcp start session detects period inactivity from the server then terminates the session however for some reason this does not happen with xscreensaver there workaround prefer responses via mail thanks economics not for those who are atracted real world problems which have simple and clear solutions for these individuals recommend astrology hugo sonnenschein
comp.windows.x	detecting saving geometry changes trying get program monitor resize position events that when the program exits can save the last known geometry some sort preferences file adding event handler for structurenotify the toplevelshell xtaddeventhandler toplevel structurenotifymask false configurecb mydata this works fine and callback called whenever the window resized repositioned using the window manager mwm however when just resizing the window using any resize handle the window manager resize decoration the and are set zero the xevent passed the event handler callback accessing the xconfigure structure like the manual says xev xconfigure xev xconfigure the width and height memebers are correct when reposition the window using the window manager the xevent xconfigure structure contains all the correct width height member settings anybody know why when just resizing the and are being set zero any other way handle detecting and saving geometry changes tried using xtgetvalues the toplevel widget when exiting application before destroying any widgets and all get garbage values for the width height resources thanks bob ross ross loral com plow that the name that name loral instrumentation san diego again plow homer simpson
comp.windows.x	xkernel sun has anyone built xkernel for works great our and would just soon kiss the entire sun architeture goodbye and reclaim bunch disk space email direct post summary mickey boyd systems administrator florida state university mathematics department email boyd math fsu edu office pager
comp.windows.x	dump window screen hong hjhong nctu edu wrote looking for tool dump window screen image any one can help see xwd xpr even better grab xdump from ftp uwm edu makes use these programs well but has much nicer interface and can more you can dump postscript bitmaps etc mickey boyd systems administrator florida state university mathematics department email boyd math fsu edu office pager
comp.windows.x	terminal faq subject what the current state the world terminals jim morton jim applix com posts quarterly comp windows list manufacturers and terminals includes pricing information can somebody send copy this faq thanks alot
comp.windows.x	keycode wrong for xkeyreleasedevent writing based dosemu which requires xkeyreleasedevent found the keycode xkeyreleasedevent wrong run the program linux host xfree with display set the local linux and the sun host the two keycodes from the two xservers are different course the keycode xkeypressedevent can anybody verify this did anything wrong thanks edward der hua liu department national taiwan university taiwan dhliu solar csie ntu edu
comp.windows.x	viewing postscript files under windows article gordons mon gordons mon sps mot com gordon sasamori writes tgoj inmet camb inmet com gjs corsica camb inmet com george snyder writes article rinnptb polaris isi com kin isi com kin cho writes wonder anybody know window based postscript file viewer that runs under sunos prefered hpux ibm aix you are running sun openwindows you can use pageview this window postscript previewer like ghostview but displays much nicer yes but broken does not handle multiple pages well you don have the proper postscript commands will draw the entire document the same page instead pausing after each page haven tried yet though the same but the definition broken relative pageview requires dsc compliant postscript files order stop page breaks don consider that broken say that any program that puts out postscript file that isn dsc compliant broken harvard ucbvax uwvax astroatc ftms brown psi com ftms brown rutgers internet brown extrel com ftms brown astroatc uucp wisc edu
comp.windows.x	imake rules problem under solaris dple lungta infores com david levine writes hey folks attempting use imake manage makefiles for development effort and was curious find out anybody else experiencing problems with any target that has subdirs generated imake solaris platforms for example make makefiles chokes the very first subdirectory target subdirmakefiles not found you don give the precise error message but assume that the making the target fails because make can find the rules seen this happen with sunos make well and aat this point not sure why happens seems happen with large makefiles the entries near the end get lost small changes the makefile will remedy this problem does your example the mit distribution sunos patch this can happen with the target makefiles one the doc directories first thought this was bug with make sun but built and used gnumake with the same results attached you find the first makefiles target rule from the generated makefile this really weird are your really sure that you were using gnu make casper
comp.windows.x	somebody please help hello hope this the right group post this got little problem finally managed get real operating system linux opposed dos and like alot but when try run startx get strange response monitor goes into graphics mode and get this big white rectangle the screen that all nothing else now collected almost every faq the world help but either too confusing must missing something setup about mhz trident svga meg ram plenty space any help appreciated thanx
comp.windows.x	shared libraries and replacing modules them wonderring possible replace single module xkeybind shared library libx suns openwindows tried rtfm but didn get any wiser that way also can the same machine running possible all know how with real libraries trying replace xlookupstring the delivered libraries with another that does few special things per per andersson ppan celsiustech perand stacken kth free time managing networks and occasionally suns but not speaking for celsiustech lla sweden
comp.windows.x	blinking cursor xterm quoted from may moepi open bernward moepi open bernward averwald back the days did analyse the xterm code the cursor was implemented drawing rectangle around the character doesn seem changed til now but you have the sources you could add blinking cursor via xtappaddtimeout similar the server overhead for this mildly ridiculous though see also desqview which does this its dos windows you really want xterm wake every half second and whack the server into doing bitblt brandon
comp.windows.x	outline scalable fonts versus bitmap replicated scalable fonts after looking the scaling code realized the follwing problem with the resolution foints due installation problem that the server font server will rescale the best font can find meet your requirements this means that you server return response like the following adobe helvetica medium normal iso you can ask for the follwogin adobe helvetica medium normal iso and will generate for you you should try always use known pixel sizes bill jones
comp.windows.x	motif gcc silly messages thanks everyone who mailed help unfortunately the end problem was really stupid oversight behalf the code was perfect but might help add control makefile anyway the mangled name was telling could locate the control constructor just want reaffirm what valuable book this one enjoying evry page
comp.windows.x	dos windows article psg com mvalente draco lnec writes posting this request again since the last one had title looking for server software dos windows already seen desqview and xvision but would like aware other solutions namely public domain shareware implementations also like know the commercial case about possible problems incompatibilities available window managers and libraries etc you have any experiences this area please let know mario valente try linux available the internet
comp.windows.x	viewing postscript files under windows ftms uucp brown ftms uucp vidiot writes the same but the definition broken relative pageview requires dsc compliant postscript files order stop page breaks don consider that broken say that any program that puts out postscript file that isn dsc compliant broken well that may true however the man page for pageview for does not mention about dsc compliance any event the point here that you try display some files using pageview you will find out that not practical tool gordon sasamori csic mcu design email gordons sps mot com nippon motorola ltd voice fax
comp.windows.x	including color pixmap xpm files application there portable and convenient way use color picture files the xpm format define pixmap motif application any functions pointers tips etc would most welcome saad mufti personal library software mail mufti pls com
comp.windows.x	mswindows xwindows conversion all heard commercial package named zink that could convert windows source code xwindows source code the only problem the package isn available holland least can find anywhere there another package preferrably free shareware that can the same thing and where can find buy thanks advance arjen
comp.windows.x	drawing networks graphs are there any widgets function librarys for drawing networks graphs etc not tree views freeware shareware comercial like this for instance just giving the associations between the nodes automatic layout generation would nice any node symbols could used maybe even insert widgets nodes using different line styles etc for describing associations any information would appreciated thanks advance jorgen jorgen eriksson eua ericsson
comp.windows.x	compiling ghostview under sun openwindows due seems sun crapulous organisation the libraries and includes most standard gnu and other software won compile out the box well tar file right now trying make ghostview complains can find xaw just linked the files from usr openwin share include and now the ghoddam thing still complains can find them still haven been able compile xdvi not way has anyone ever managed get anything normal compile sun sunos and openwindows what the trick missing even tried hard copying all the relevant files into the right places and every time there some bit missing refuses find peter
comp.windows.x	help needed callbacks actions and events understood that there are two methods connect application code widgets callbacks and actions the problem face now that have quite long piece application code that performs lot drawing into window want connect this widget problem far could use callback function action this processing any events afterwards but because the drawing takes some while want the application code sequence able interrupted events then want handle the events and resume with processing the application code the point was interrupted seems that this isn possible but how can give the user the impression that his inputs are immediately processed has anybody idea please answer via mail thanks advance soenke soenke voss faculty economics soenke wiwi uni bielefeld university bielefeld bielefeld germany the only difference between and madman that not mad salvador dali
comp.windows.x	blinking cursor xterm dndinnmsd senator bedfellow mit edu steve mcmahon launchpad unc edu writes fri may gmt dude pcs com michael elbel said emu won work bsd derived systems suns with anything else than csh there fix this which very short remove one line code put this export today more than that actually the version export one cannot just specify posix tty behaviour the posix config files are incomplete without those some specific platforms like suns and decs looked twice porting emu linux but stopped short becuse the tty part there cleaner version emu that supports posix tty explicitly hmm depends how you define clean jordan implemented the system dependent stuff way that you have basic implementations for call operating system types then you ahead and write include file for your specific machine operating system using the basic implementations since both jordan and haven encountered flavor yet that fully posix haven gotten around really implement and test top level include file specifically for just posix the posix routines are used the sun specific file tty sun for example but here also use some bsd stuff all all still probably better implement include file for each and every operating system than ifdef ing existing ones the type mess that can result from that can clearly seen the xterm sources even quite bit code gets copied almost unchanged couple times this only uses some disk space since only the drivers actually included from the toplevel include file will compiled into emu shouldn hard come with tty linux file that fully relies the posix stuff but unfortunately don have linux system available can the port myself would suggest you read the readme term sysdep and you have any problems questions contact and could try sort this out unfortunately have rely help from the net this part emu since just don have access that many different systems michael michael elbel digital pcs gmbh muenchen germany dude pcs com intelligenz sowieso nur wat fuer doofe mia fermentation fault coors dumped
comp.windows.x	creating your own colormap lookup table hello below have the copy some source using setup user specified color map for attempting create user defined colors terms rgb color ranges the calls xalloccolor prove ineffective variables are defined are follows int lut index color type min image max image color type image pixel value range last image start end jump lut unsigned long pixel double red green blue data structure used color operations typedef struct unsigned long pixel unsigned short red green blue char flags red green blue char pad xcolor xcolor rgbcolor hardwarecolor with color type defined double red double green double blue what need know how set possible the values hardwarecolor work within the call xalloccolor start red int min image red end red int max image red jump red int end red start red start green int min image green end green int max image green jump green int end green start green start blue int min image blue end blue int max image blue jump blue int end blue start blue lut index for for for jump red lut lut index red start red else lut lut index red jump red jump green lut lut index green start green else lut lut index green jump green jump blue lut lut index blue start blue else lut lut index blue jump blue hardwarecolor red short lut lut index red hardwarecolor green short lut lut index green hardwarecolor blue short lut lut index blue hardwarecolor pixel lut index printf pixel lut index hardwarecolor red hardwarecolor green hardwarecolor blue hardwarecolor pixel status xalloccolor dpy colormap hardwarecolor printf pixel lut index hardwarecolor red hardwarecolor green hardwarecolor blue hardwarecolor pixel status xsetforeground dpy hardwarecolor pixel xfillrectangle dpy win maxcolumn maxrow xflush dpy sleep printf lut index lut lut index lut lut index green lut lut index blue hardwarecolor pixel lut index lut index thanks advance anyone who can help with this problem sincerely john duggan john duggan alias genghis khan engineering computer services internet duggan ecs umass edu univ massachusetts amherst bitnet duggan umaecs
comp.windows.x	program display gif files seems silly but while located things like tgif that can edit gif files and various tools convert from gif format haven been able locate program that just opens window and displays gif file looked thru various faq files also avail there one lurking about some archive nothing sophisticated just show the pretty picture alternatively could locate the specs for gif don suppose would too hard write myself but have idea where even start looking for the spec well actually have idea this newsgroup the auto industry were like the computer industry car would now cost would get miles the gallon and random times would explode killing all its passengers
comp.windows.x	svr xclients won work under svr repost when changed from svr svr intel box discovered that some svr xclients such xload etc would longer work they bomb out with the message error can open display unix this because they can find the correct shared libraries they need recompiled have not used the correct options both systems use thanks jack
comp.windows.x	mac and sun openwindows benj ossa nasa gov benjamin jones writes run into bit snag while trying get mac and running and would appreciate any responses from anyone who may have seen this problem local network have number macs suns and sgi machines have installed macx mactcp all the macintoshes and can run xclients the sgi machines all the live long day the problem when try run xclient any sun setup the command macx then execute nothing happens don even get any command output now thought might routing issue but can run remote xclients the suns from sgi machines well vice versa can also run remote xclients sgi machines that are not local net here but the above problem holds true for non local suns well tried send this private mail but mail benj ossa nasa gov was rejected here here extract from the readme file that comes with macx users remote commands with sun machines may find that their remote commands appear nothing and there output from the sun machine this due feature the sun rexecd network daemon which quietly disconnects from requesting machines that are not known the sun network address etc hosts nis hosts database successfully use remote commands with sunos based machine there must entry the network address database for the macintosh which running macx stan kerr computing communications services office illinois urbana phone email stankerr uiuc edu
comp.windows.x	drawing networks graphs article may eua ericsson tvtjet eua ericsson jorgen eriksson writes are there any widgets function librarys for drawing networks graphs etc not tree views freeware shareware comercial like this for instance pretty picture deleted just giving the associations between the nodes automatic layout generation would nice any node symbols could used maybe even insert widgets nodes using different line styles etc for describing associations check out the xmgraph library the following location iworks ecn uiowa edu comp gui classic xmgraph tar skip montanaro crd com
comp.windows.x	internationalization there anybody has some example programs about using the internationalization features such small program just show chinese texts wondows menu bar icons thanks advance michael hung
comp.windows.x	dvi viewers need some help tracking down dvi viewer for have xdvi but have not got the libraries and includes installed there way around this are trying avoid installing the stuff space premium would someone prepared make the binaries available have and thanks for any help michael carley dept mech engineering tcd
comp.windows.x	summary how make window input all caps thanks bruce barnett who recommended xvttool and bernward averwald and liam quin who recommended modifying xdefaults get the desired behavior for class xterms xvttool simply create key file that looks like and specify said key file the command line this will translate any input into any other case case case works great and you get customizable button pad the right left side use xterm solution add your xdefaults capxterm translations override key string capxterm translations override key insert string key insert string and invoke xterm name capxterm thanks loads kevin weinrich computer sciences corp kbw helios ath epa gov
comp.windows.x	program display gif files john chambers minya uucp wrote seems silly but while located things like tgif that can edit gif files and various tools convert from gif format haven been able locate program that just opens window and displays gif file looked thru various faq files also avail there one lurking about some archive nothing sophisticated just show the pretty picture
comp.windows.x	looking for article urgently looking for the following article but can seem find anywhere here the multi threaded server john allen smith the resource issue winter anyone can tell where find will much appreciated sadie departement computer science university stellenbosch south africa mail sadie itu sun
comp.windows.x	none subscribe xpert skji eve kaist
comp.windows.x	faq could someone repost the faqs for this group please thanks ladislas
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comp.windows.x	colors and windows aicons excerpts from netnews comp windows may colors and windows john cwikla morrison wri the problem that need solutions for applications now and although would love have most the things mentioned here somebody has write what like see this scenario each widget view whatever describes colors via palette palettes can shared and they only contain descriptive information they are not directly tied the object that uses them palettes are held the server palette can accomadate the number hardware color cells color descriptors when the input focus particular widget that widget has access all the colors that are described its associated palette all other widgets transiently get the closest approximation that can generated union the colors from the current palette and any free colors that are left over widget specifies color for imaging providing index pixel into its associated palette the bold part above hard and would need done the server
comp.windows.x	xterm slave mode tunning into this newgroup after long time could somebody tell what the slave mode the xterm and what can used for any info where can get more info examples want use bunch xterms and send the input from one application these xterms and get the output the xterms please email any info thanks lourdu
comp.windows.x	motif and compiling xcoral built xcoral system sunos motif and builds fine but when run any child windows that xcoral opens locks the mouse into the window area doesn accept any input from the mouse needless say this pain the ass have find empty terminal login and kill xcoral this problem with openwindows motif there patch bob campbell crayons can take you where system manager starship can hao ncar guinan rsc hao ucar edu sttng disclaimer views are way connected employer closed mouth gathers feet unknown only requires little thought and little work don hicks managing editor amazing computing
comp.windows.x	help needed callbacks actions and events understood that there are two methods connect application code widgets callbacks and actions the problem face now that have quite long piece application code that performs lot drawing into window want connect this widget problem far could use callback function action this processing any events afterwards but because the drawing takes some while want the application code sequence able interrupted events then want handle the events and resume with processing the application code the point was interrupted seems that this isn possible but how can give the user the impression that his inputs are immediately processed use workproc see xtappaddworkproc you should split your drawing routnie into small chunks this the hard part then the callback that starts the drawing you call xtappaddworkproc call your workproc the first time your workproc should function that returns boolean true when you are finished and false when you want keep processing you return false the workproc automatically installed note that this method better that using time out loop since events get processed more precedence oriented manner you are using the same ada bindings however you are hosed and should look into xtappaddtimeout joe hildebrand hildjj fuentez com software engineer fuentez systems concepts standard disclaimers apply
comp.windows.x	any free servers for pcs does anyone know any free servers for pcs preferably that run under windows thanks peter buttuls university alberta edmonton canada mail userpib mts ucs ualberta
comp.windows.x	shared libraries and replacing modules them know nothing about sun but replacing pieces libraries shared not straight forward all releases extract the appropriate pierce with rebind the and replace with see info for details
comp.windows.x	makedepend problem netters have problem with makedepend doesn know how correctly process clause preprocessor statements evaluates everything true matter what the conditionals are for example makedepend chokes one include files distributed sun namely xos defined sunos defined stdc include string define index strchr define rindex strrchr else bsd stdc include strings endif sunos stdc here makedepend evaluates both and corresponding else statements true and tries open the file strings which doesn exist under solaris also have lot statements some our legacy code got and built makedepend off the net didn fix the problem all fairness should noted that makdepend man page sun distribution mentions this problem bugs you not have the source for cpp the berkeley preprocessor then makedepend will compiled such way that all directives will evaluate true regardless their actual value this may cause the wrong include directives evaluated makedepend should simply have its own parser written for expressions has anybody come with some solution fix makdepend other than writeyourownparser and willing share with since often experience delays our newsfeed please reply directly mail address post summary thanks advance michael turok information resources inc mail mlt blues infores com fifth avenue voice ext waltham usa fax
comp.windows.x	key event window there someone you have program for sending key event another window but must appear that window have used xsendevent tar package but does not that for example get program executing bin read something echo something and send the key event keypress keyrelease that window then will get something thanks advance gabriel iban gibanez dcc uchile
comp.windows.x	did microsoft buy xhibition article may vpbuild com jessea com jesse asher writes been getting mail from xhibition about the june conference and was wondering microsoft had bought xhibition the front says conference from microsoft windows developers what the deal thought hibition was for windows jesse asher yes xhibition for the window system the window system conference remains the largest and most complete conference devoted nineteen full and half day tutorials and thirty six technical sessions over three days provide huge amounts information for application developers add vendor exhibits and product presentation track provide information what folks can purchase today and you have complete show focused speakers xhibition include bob schiefler abel mark ackerman paul asente doug blewett donna converse jim fulton oliver jones keith packard ralph swick doug young and many others xhibition growing fortunately for and have added some additional conferences surveys that have given have indicated additional topics interest these include object oriented technologies such the object management group orb and corba applies client server technologies such dce threads databases object oriented and relational and not surprisingly when you look the audience windows with the bulk the xhibition audience and the unix community developing applications for house custom use new bit operating system from player large microsoft needs evaluated with windows many desktops and the price computing power dropping its successor needs evaluated corporations begin look must their developers and suppliers the mission the xhibition technical conferences provide information the application developer and the technology planner the conference xhibition designed just that worked with microsoft provide the only conference this year specifically designed show and unix developers the capabilities windows and you aren sure that has what you need for your application development systems deployment this the place find out ask the folks from microsoft get them show you what you need conference attendees will receive software development kits bang evaluate and generally see for yourself hope this doesn sound like commercial should sound like xhibition commercial just want reiterate that the xhibition audience growing and xhibition growing along with the industry confusing place the moment with unix cose dce corba and all the other acronyms sprouting xhibition can help sort out the confusion aub harden technical program manager harden ics com the conference and trade show for corporate software development broadway cambridge windows distributed computing june san jose xhibit ics com uunet ics com xhibit voice fax presented integrated computer solutions inc
comp.windows.x	blinking cursor xterm back the days did analyse the xterm code the cursor was implemented drawing rectangle around the character doesn seem changed til now but you have the sources you could add blinking cursor via xtappaddtimeout similar the server overhead for this mildly ridiculous though see also desqview which does this its dos windows you really want xterm wake every half second and whack the server into doing bitblt most dos servers are terribly slow use experience and guess performance would pretty bad believe the discussion valid for server decent workstation the eno the trouble with new age janet city music that there eno city evil brian eno city cunyvm cuny edu
comp.windows.x	xdm emul error when attempting connect sgi indigo from clone using commercial windows emulation package the package hangs pre login screen mode the login box won display using the package telnet mode can logon the sgi and run any none graphic type things the get error read error socket raw socket error the sgi xdm errors get termination error when kill the stalled screen the the sgi syslog date time sgi xdm hung xopendisplay remote aborting server open failed for remote giving have all access control disabled believe syslog message confirms this when login the sgi believe have the sgi set properly described the adm book rielly the emul package tech support hasn been able solve the problem what looking for some suggestions where look for problems and possible tests run narrow down the questions thanks webster ucssun sdsu edu
comp.windows.x	did microsoft buy xhibition harden skate ics com aub harden writes article may vpbuild com jessea com jesse asher writes been getting mail from xhibition about the june conference and was wondering microsoft had bought xhibition the front says conference from microsoft windows developers what the deal thought hibition was for windows jesse asher was wondering this myself and not surprisingly when you look the audience windows with the bulk the xhibition audience and the unix community developing applications for house custom use new bit operating system from player large microsoft needs evaluated with windows many desktops and the price computing power dropping its successor needs evaluated corporations begin look must their developers and suppliers what you need conference attendees will receive software development kits bang evaluate and generally see for yourself hope this doesn sound like commercial should sound like xhibition commercial unfortunately does don agree with the logic windows conference perhaps some good will come but the two are dissimilar and the marketing stuff large the xhibition adds that was coming similar conclusion jesse mark davis lake taylor hospital norfolk sys administrator computer services mark taylor mark taylor uucp
comp.windows.x	what client display variable set there easy via shell commands way tell what the display environment variable for any given client process sometimes can get what want typing axe the client was invoked with display argument display one the first few variables defined the environment actually never seen but there illustrate the type thing looking for ultimately wish determine the number displays that are simultaneously running given application system sunos sun thanks for any help posnak harris space systems corporation eposnak core hssc ksc nasa gov
comp.windows.x	multi bytes fonts wondering how change the english fonts existed api some multi bytes fonts such chinese japanese someone told supports some internationalization features but cannot find any examples for need there anybody has done some similar jobs the way all the english fonts should replace chinese japanese fonts that means windows menubar button that will great someone can share what you have done thanks advance hung
comp.windows.x	help sun framebuffer xsun won come color this framebuffer trying use xkernel some these have freshly built statically linkes copy xsun that works just fine type framebuffers but the that have this type frame buffer all get mono cgtwo vme vec cgtwo sun color board fast read here what tried removing all the other dev dev and dev and then selectivly recreating dev cgtwo xsun comes mono recreating dev comes mono tried xsun xsun dev dev cgtwo xnews will come color but not statically linked and the dynamically linked xsun comes mono also pps xsun was compiled gcc system running and the also running thanks advance the highway made out lime jello and honda barbequeued oyster yum henry reynolds hdr ross com hdr nidhog cactus org fone ross technology inc fax hwy west suite austin
comp.windows.x	querying xdm manage remote display how under linux xfree have suns running sunos and openwindows have used xvision setup broadcast query the unix xdm servers and allow user choose unix client which login xdm will then manage that display would like the same thing with xfree running under linux but don know how don want hardwire the unix xdm manage the displays the are not always running linux let alone xfree would like the same setup provided xvision can anybody help thanks roberto togneri phone centre for intelligent information processing systems dept electrical electronic engineering the university western australia fax nedlands australia email robert swanee uwa edu
comp.windows.x	viewing postscript files under windows article rinnptb polaris isi com kin isi com kin cho writes can also live with utility that converts postscript plain text perferably retaining page counts that know how many pages the original document contains well know one hack sort this conversion first get ghostscript and check out the asc file that comes with prints out some information about where each text string goes the page and maintains page counts written little program massage the output dnodisplay asc somewhat that you can get all the ascii strings the document guarantees that won break words sentences though used with varying degrees success anyways try this out may what you want massager filter for use with does crude postscript ascii conversion usage cat file dnodisplay asc massager print ctrl after each new page put the following source into massager and compile include stdio include string main char line while fgets line sizeof line stdin null line printf else line line strrchr line null continue strchr line null continue for putchar putchar return david wagner dawagner princeton edu
comp.windows.x	wanted interactive gui builder for motif there looking for tools that can make programming easy would like have tool that will enable create motif gui interactivly currently working sgi with forms package that enables create gui with coding all but the callbacks any help will appreciated thanks gabi
comp.windows.x	how program about protocols delete window olit all study about delete window atom open look study the book unix desktop guide open look run the example chapter but not the result described book figure dose anyone read the book run the example winprop what the problem curious about delete window programming anyone help thanks advance for any help iop
comp.windows.x	please this discussion viewing files undex seems rather interesting but fail understand the reason not contained most newsgroups subscribed comp text interleaf and could care less about viewing under sure that members this group interested the topic can followup looking other newsgroups could you please remove the comp text interleaf from your distribution just nettish sort courtesy best regards leo irakliotis irakliot longs lance colostate edu electrical engineering irakliotis ieee org colorado state optical computing lab
comp.windows.x	ibm how are you everybody installed our ibm workstation version aix there was problem installation but there was problem invoking xinit when invoke xinit there error message follows giving xinit unable connect server xinit such process errno server error navice don know the reason why get this message please help waiting for your help thanks for reading this mail park jang jhpark kdb snu
comp.windows.x	xfig with open look problem solaris user with classic workstation have compiled xfig version with dopenwin flag use with openwindows but when run the program runs and runs and runs minutes and never ready work with the labels are not completed and can push any button have problem does not run the openwindows but any solution thanks advance and excuse for english pedro antonio acebes bayon mail pacebes cozuelos tid adress admd mensatex prmd iris rediris relay rfc pacebes cozuelos tid
comp.windows.x	multi byte fonts wondering how change the english fonts existed api some multi bytes fonts such chinese japanese someone told supports some internationalization features but cannot find any examples for need there anybody has done some similar jobs the way all the english fonts should replace chinese japanese fonts that means windows menubar button that will great someone can share what you have done thanks advance hung
comp.windows.x	ibm yes have the same problem with xinit the problems seems come from the fact that the xopendisplay fails try our machine named godzilla setenv display godzilla xibm xterm works fine but the following will not work setenv display unix xibm xterm did set configuration option incorrectly thank you for any assistance you can offer herb hasler herb iiasa international institute for applied systems anaylsis iiasa laxemburg austria ext
comp.windows.x	windows dos where the faq need know where can get faq xwindows for dos machines the usual faq just gave name file called xservers nonunix txt which cannot find anywhere need windows programming msdos does anyone know how about doing
comp.windows.x	blinking cursor xterm may wariat org allbery wariat org allbery writes quoted from may moepi open bernward moepi open bernward averwald back the days did analyse the xterm code the cursor was implemented drawing rectangle around the character doesn seem changed til now but you have the sources you could add blinking cursor via xtappaddtimeout similar the server overhead for this mildly ridiculous though see also desqview which does this its dos windows you really want xterm wake every half second and whack the server into doing bitblt what running emu mhz box cannot make out any difference performance whether the cursor set blinking not you think about bit cycle hell lot time for even the slowest since you would course only enable the blinking text cursor when your xterm has the input focus this application active anyway repeat blinking text cursor costs almost nothing performance just needs some thought when designing the xterm software michael michael elbel digital pcs gmbh muenchen germany dude pcs com intelligenz sowieso nur wat fuer doofe mia fermentation fault coors dumped
comp.windows.x	looking for article urgently looking for the following article can cannot find anywhere our local libraries john allen smith the multi threaded server the resource issue winter anyone can tell where can find will much appreciate sadie departement computer science university stellenbosch south africa mail sadie itu sun
comp.windows.x	open look where where can obtain copy the open look widgets obtainable the net somewhere need order copy how thanks for any help please email dave wilson computing centre rhodes university grahamstown south africa
comp.windows.x	mac and sun openwindows article mrd cso uiuc edu kerr cso uiuc edu stan kerr writes benj ossa nasa gov benjamin jones writes run into bit snag while trying get mac and running and would appreciate stuff deleted are not local net here but the above problem holds true for non local suns well tried send this private mail but mail benj ossa nasa gov was rejected here same here here extract from the readme file that comes with macx users remote commands with sun machines may find that their remote commands appear nothing and there output from the sun machine this due feature the sun rexecd network daemon which quietly disconnects from requesting machines that are not known the sun network address etc hosts nis hosts database successfully use remote commands with sunos based machine there must entry the network address database for the macintosh which running macx received similar information advice about what appears the same problem benjamin has and still have nis has all the information about the macs even put explicit entries etc hosts avail monitoring with snoop classic the initial rexec packet sent the the sun which sends something the correct mac but nothing appears the mac rexecd number one suspect but more suble than the readme suggests and haven yet looked into further stan kerr computing communications services office illinois urbana phone email stankerr uiuc edu callum downie brunel faculty technology brunel university uxbridge die meisten saetze und fragen welche ueber philosophische dinge geschrieben worden sind sind nicht falsch sondern unsinnig wovon man nicht sprechen kann darueber muss man schweigen
comp.windows.x	viewing postscript files under windows article gordons mon sps mot com gordons mon sps mot com gordon sasamori writes ftms uucp brown ftms uucp vidiot writes the same but the definition broken relative pageview requires dsc compliant postscript files order stop page breaks don consider that broken say that any program that puts out postscript file that isn dsc compliant broken well that may true however the man page for pageview for does not mention about dsc compliance any event the point here that you try display some files using pageview you will find out that not practical tool true that the man page for pageview does not say that the files need dsc compliant that the fault the left hand not knowing what the right hand doing sun was informed sun employee that the pageview program does require dsc compliant postscript there was the possibility that was going changed that the file wasn dsc compliant that would stop each showpage believe that this method would preclude being able backwards and forwards through the file you could only forward the next showpage this isn pageview but maybe the solaris version any event find pageview extremely useful since all the postscript that produce dsc compliant don have any problems harvard ucbvax uwvax astroatc ftms brown psi com ftms brown rutgers internet brown extrel com ftms brown astroatc uucp wisc edu
comp.windows.x	moving curosr with keyboard xperts how can move the cursor with the keyboard cursor keys mouse available any hints welcome thanks rainer hochreiter telephone elin energieanwendung gesmbh telefax penzingerstr wien austria europe mail rainer elin
comp.windows.x	fitting straight line curve data points article warda land com andrew ward writes looking for graphing program that will fit data straight line any program that estimates closest fit curve gives any statistics would helpful many spreadsheets regression analysis the topic also well covered most undergraduate statistic books cubic splines are usually well covered any undergraduate computer science numerical analysis text sure has well stocked library have never used mathematica but would surprised could not spline edmond meinfelder programmer virtual guy aardvark bigger anon hack for hire
comp.windows.x	blinking cursor xterm dude pcs com michael elbel writes may wariat org allbery wariat org allbery writes quoted from may moepi open bernward moepi open bernward averwald back the days did analyse the xterm code the cursor was implemented drawing rectangle around the character doesn seem changed til now but you have the sources you could add blinking cursor via xtappaddtimeout similar the server overhead for this mildly ridiculous though see also desqview which does this its dos windows you really want xterm wake every half second and whack the server into doing bitblt what running emu mhz box cannot make out any difference performance whether the cursor set blinking not you think about bit cycle hell lot time for even the slowest since you would course only enable the blinking text cursor when your xterm has the input focus this application active anyway repeat blinking text cursor costs almost nothing performance just needs some thought when designing the xterm software you are stuck distributed system feedback loop what you are xterminal running xterm over the net another machine that when the load problems occur you had machine with xterminals attached and they all had blinking cursors xterm this could represent considerable ethernet bandwidth waste not picking you just people keep forgetting that there lot life out there besides distributed singleuser workstations mark davis lake taylor hospital norfolk sys administrator computer services mark taylor mark taylor uucp
comp.windows.x	did microsoft buy xhibition jessea com jesse asher wrote been getting mail from xhibition about the june conference and was wondering microsoft had bought xhibition the front says conference from microsoft windows developers what the deal thought hibition was for windows had exactly the same feeling was depressed you ever programmed windows and you depressed conference touted its tutorials show you how convert from windows api sort like how convert your classes the new improved what happened dan greening software transformation saratoga sunnyvale greening sti com cupertino
comp.windows.x	cga for windows looking for some assistance locating information how run win cga monitor the setup suggests you look the manual but the guy helping part large office and computer assistance must booked advance therefore cant get windows onto his cga system thanx anticipation neil
comp.windows.x	graphics text with are there any graphics texts with examples demos projects directly the last time taught the course used popular graphics text that uses its own graphics package with implementations available for mac the problem was that after the course the students were good programming the artificial package but frustrated that they couldn really use their skill for other work ken mandelberg mathcs emory edu preferred emory university rutgers gatech emory uucp dept math and emory bitnet non domain bitnet atlanta phone voice fax
comp.windows.x	professional organization has anyone ever heard the professional organization anyone member the membership worth the that they charge tim bomgardner
comp.windows.x	whats vendorshellwidgetclass tried compile old motif program with and newer version motif but newer succeed any ideas xtrack new main libxtrack xutils libxutils pmshort libpmshort matrix libmatrix otte lib otte verb lib verb tools newmotif lib libmrm tools newmotif lib libxm tools lib lxaw lxmu lxt lxext cxm lxaw lxmu lxt lxext usr sun tools lib libxaw sharedlib vendorshellwidgetclass multiply defined error code make fatal error command failed for target xtrack thanks fvd fvd markus weber fvd mathematik uni karlsruhe sometimes there nothing feel
comp.windows.x	starting windows soon logged into linux type xinit setting tcp linger protocol not available siocgifconf xfree version window system protocol version revision vendor release configured drivers vga colout svga pvga gvga ati tvga tgva using number mouse type mouse systems device dev mouse baudrate font path set usr lib fonts type usr lib fonts dpi usr lib fonts speedo usr lib fonts bitstream usr lib fonts misc vga mem numclocks vga clocks vga clocks vga too little memory for virtual resolution configured device found but display modes could not resolved fatal server error screens found giving xinit interrupted system call errno unable connect server xinit such process errno server error why getting these messages when type xinit there configuration file for windows like config sys for msdos how start the session from shell subbarao chitturi schit ctp com
comp.windows.x	makedepend problem article cronos metaphor com mlt blues infores com michael turok writes have problem with makedepend doesn know how correctly process clause preprocessor statements evaluates everything true matter what the conditionals are has anybody come with some solution fix makdepend other than writeyourownparser and willing share with rewrite makedepend use gcc gcc which the one prefer since system headers don change that often for generating the actual dependencies you still need write the parts that edit the actual makefile think there program the berkeley distributions called mkdep that will essentially this vivek khera gradual student systems guy department computer science internet khera duke edu box mime mail accepted durham
comp.windows.x	makedepend problem have problem with makedepend doesn know how correctly process most the way through adding grammar for parsing the expressions don know when able get back you welcome what have far haven looked other versions makedepend which may solve the problem more elegantly david lewis temporarily but not speaking for visual inc day dbl visual com evening david craft uunet net
comp.windows.x	did microsoft buy xhibition well glad that there plenty stuff xhibition not because want use instead but because want find out what the chances are that some time the future may not have any choice this news this your peter scott nasa jpl caltech brain news any questions pjs euclid jpl nasa gov
comp.windows.x	cga for windows sat eng tridom com stephen thomas writes article uniwa uwa edu ngolding tartarus uwa edu neil golding writes looking for some assistance locating information how run win cga monitor the cga driver for windows works fine with win they taken over comp windows misc and now they coming for berry berry kercheval kerch parc xerox com
comp.windows.x	xquerytree xgrabserver and robustness article may viewlogic com josh viewlogic com josh marantz writes have application that wants walk the server window hierarchy looking for window with specific property think what happens that xquerytree gives array children but the time get the nth child window has been destroyed then get badwindow error and application exits how can make this robust thought the following set error handler that longjmps back where made the offending call this safe have longjmp can just return badwindow protocol error you write custom error handler which does not exit the error handler will return and let your program carry using xseterrorhandler the way but never mind the longjmp register for destroynotify all the windows returned from xquerytree too hard
comp.windows.x	problems with characters above all read the faq fiddled around but still having problems getting poor old let input display characters above have the following xdefaults xterm font adobe courier bold normal iso believe that have the correct font selected use xterm have not set ctype environment variable because whatever put tells that that locale not supported apparently have additional locales defined least lib locale doesn exist can get some the characters above print out but they are not where expect them for example alt does not produce umlaut this leads believe that the fault lies with the stty settings which are follows speed baud line susp undef dsusp undef intr quit erase kill swtch eof eol min time stop start parenb parodd cstopb hupcl cread clocal loblk crts ignbrk brkint ignpar parmrk inpck istrip inlcr igncr icrnl iuclc ixon ixany ixoff ienqak isig icanon iexten xcase echo echoe echok echonl noflsh opost olcuc onlcr ocrnl onocr onlret ofill ofdel tostop anyway struggled with this off and for couple weeks and any help anyone could offer would greatly appreciated thanks brendan
comp.windows.x	windows motif tools summary posted this may looking for info products that can take windows source unix box such sparc and produce motif executable another requirement that mfc should supported already know wind bristol technologies hunter sdk mainwin mainsoft are there any others will post summary wanted got few requests asking for summary attempt one here here the ones know wind bristol technologies hunter sdk hunter systems mainwin mainsoft libwxm visual solutions hunter the company going through some big changes expect eventually see the hunter sdk pop with new name the moment difficult get phone calls returned and otherwise obtain info hopefully they will post something about themselves once things settle down visual solutions libwxm product that just heard about they don yet support mdi mfc libwxm was used port vissim mathematical modeling package does native motif widgets like wind from bristol contact carrie lemieux for more info she very helpful mainsoft this translates windows source unix executable that can switch off between windows quasi motif look and feel runtime they skip the and motif toolkit levels and straight xlib they don yet support mfc they bristol this company that seems the right track wind uses xlib give real motif app they seem doing the most work trying support things like dde common dialogs and more the horizon contact there knowledgeable responds email and wrote example program for showing how obtain widgets from windows handles they you can email info bristol com dls autodesk com dls netcom com daniel smith autodesk sausalito california disclaimer accuracy statements corrrelates somehow caffeine intake
comp.windows.x	colorizing motif widgets using resource file posted this question about colorizing motif widgets got working fine there was one bug xdefault file should work fine normal case thanks samir spatel tamu edu
comp.windows.x	wanted interactive gui builder for motif there looking for tools that can make programming easy would like have tool that will enable create motif gui interactivly currently working sgi with forms package that enables create gui with coding all but the callbacks any help will appreciated thanks gabi gabi zodik room technion haifa israel interest mapping problem mail gabi techunix technion
comp.windows.x	hpgl anything converter wanted comp windows doug happy com doug hughes writes found hpgl viewer for and converter from hpgl postscript does anybody have anything that allows you convert from anything into hpgl desperately need something like this hpgl does not support raster primitives formatter would have punt most popular image formats this probably explains the lack translators out there what you need plot greg hughes gmh com
comp.windows.x	compiling ghostview under sun openwindows article curia ucc pflynn curia ucc peter flynn writes due seems sun crapulous organisation the libraries and includes most standard gnu and other software won compile out the box well tar file right now trying make ghostview complains can find xaw just linked the files from usr openwin share include and now the ghoddam thing still complains can find them still haven been able compile xdvi not way has anyone ever managed get anything normal compile sun sunos and openwindows what the trick missing even tried hard copying all the relevant files into the right places and every time there some bit missing refuses find sounds like you didn load the support for those libraries when was loaded the xaw support was missing from but added harvard ucbvax uwvax astroatc ftms brown psi com ftms brown rutgers internet brown extrel com ftms brown astroatc uucp wisc edu
comp.windows.x	program display gif files article minya uucp minya uucp john chambers writes seems silly but while located things like tgif that can edit gif files and various tools convert from gif format haven been able locate program that just opens window and displays gif file looked thru various faq files also avail there one lurking about some archive nothing sophisticated just show the pretty picture alternatively could locate the specs for gif don suppose would too hard write myself but have idea where even start looking for the spec well actually have idea this newsgroup get version reads displays manipulates many different formats harvard ucbvax uwvax astroatc ftms brown psi com ftms brown rutgers internet brown extrel com ftms brown astroatc uucp wisc edu
comp.windows.x	problem with release article mcgary may mojo intellection com mcgary intellection com mike mcgary writes article klinnauq news washington edu pramod stein washington edu pramod mahadev writes unidentified external symbol get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass use lxaw lxmu lxext lxt not this order but proper order wondering there has some changes link libraries should include some more libraries any help this matter will very useful and highly appreciated get this too you put bstatic into your options goes away things seem run without must not called very often from the faq subject what this link problem with libxmu sunos sunos sun fixed shared library bug which conflicts with the way builds the shared xmu library causing these symbols notably undefined when building some clients get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass compiling bstatic lxmu bdynamic appears work solve the problem you are using openwindows based please contact your local sun office and request the following patches patch description openwindows libxt jumbo patch openwindows undefined symbols when using shared libxmu greg earle earle sun com source patch for use with the mit libraries was developed conrad kimball cek sdc boeing com retrofits into some fixes made get around this problem the patch export contrib sunos patch version conrad kimball client server tech services boeing computer services cek sdc boeing com box seattle
comp.windows.x	ideas xterm paste irritation article eillihca grizzle stanford edu eillihca drizzle stanford edu achille hui the day dreamer writes read the xterm manual pages for more informations about the avaliable actions xterm read the faq and get good book customizing your applications okay will byte could someone provide more info good book customizing your applicaitons search one which does not expect the reader have the source code memorized even available online larry virden inet lvirden cas org personal falls place reynoldsburg
comp.windows.x	resources and cpp help running ibm aix and sun sunos since run both colour and black white displays need different values for the same resource want use ifdef color application defaults files however cpp only invoked xrdb and not when the resources are loaded demand there proper solution this far the only proper solution come think create different files app defaults say xterm and xterm color and set xfilesearchpath either home home color but that does not always seem work executing remote shell command without reading the cshrc does not set xfilesearchpath furthermore thought using include xterm xterm color however for resources xterm that want override xterm color things are different both machines sun the first found resource used the one from xterm the one while the last found value used the one from xterm color what can about have one last question for the specification xfilesearchpath can use and stands for app defaults for the resource class but what and stand for thanks advance for replying marcel drs marcel wijkstra aio visualization wijkstra fwi uva faculty mathematics and computer science university amsterdam the netherlands life stinks fortunately got cold
comp.windows.x	axe problem been happy with axe under linux now wanted use under too however attempts have ended core dumps this far bus error has anybody else been more successful jim wight install file does say there have been problems with data axe doesn seem matter shared libs thanks advance sakari aaltonen linux ftp able unix clone for sakaria vipunen hut boggles mind does
comp.windows.x	looking for file manager under twm out there every command line shell favourating user close your ears ehm eyes looking for file manager which can driven under twm somebody told last night there one under openwindows and there certainly one under windows but like one you know with icon click and drag directory structures shown graphic layout paper basket etc anybody got idea please reply thso thorsten sommer better known chiquita denn nur chiquita ist banane mail sommer ips transform and roll out bigtruck transformers
comp.windows.x	how xcreateregion works could someone explain what exactly the xlib functions xcreateregion xpolygonregion xpointinregion suggest ftp site where can find programs using these functions the man pages does not explain much thank you leo leonidas nikidis doc imperial college london dept computing
comp.windows.x	did microsoft buy xhibition mark mark davis mark taylor uucp writes article may taylor uucp mark taylor uucp mark davis writes mark are the ones control what use those who mark follow like blind sheep which cause the markets skew sure mark there will enough paid market hipe conferences without mark needing what was once conference for open windowing mark enviroments know that were planning would cancel mark not because have eyes closed but because does not belong mark such conference would however like closed mark environment conference see the product because curious mark doubt however based the objective opinions those trust mark that would impressed why many people believe that xhibition one the paid market hype conferences you put for one going because too curious about the technology think this great chance learn about mainly because will presented home turf believe that the attendees will mostly have backgrounds biases thus expect that the presentations will face tough audience can there person judge for myself whether not what hyped this closely can get evaluating the technology without actually using myself which don have the time turns out vapor technology and get bored there will many other interesting tutorials presentations that won have waste time california just thoughts yoo rrc leis bellcore com
comp.windows.x	mysterious xdm files disclaimer all views are own unless expicitly stated otherwise may csi jpl nasa gov mwette csi jpl nasa gov matt wette writes getting lots files usr lib xdm the form abert running xdm anybody know what these are and better yet how move them what resource can change make them appear somewhere else that are the authorisation files for the server depending what type key your supports they contain magic cookies des based authentication sun des authentication the place defined with the displaymanager authdir other things like the file name can changed well see xdm manual pages peter brouwer digital equipment enterprise net idca tds philips integration industry standard systems phone ext dept systems enginering bld fax ext box apeldoorn the netherlands
comp.windows.x	integration keyboard into sco odt sco odt allows adapt the server any non standard keyboard using the xkeyboard configuration compiler xsconfig sco provides some configuration files usr lib xsconfig kbd for siemens question there anywhere configuration file for the keyboard available especially interested using the specific keys such insertline menu thanks ron
comp.windows.x	how xcreateregion works article ininnl finch doc doc leonidas nikidis writes could someone explain what exactly the xlib functions xcreateregion xpolygonregion xpointinregion suggest ftp site where can find programs using these functions the man pages does not explain much thank you leo leonidas nikidis doc imperial college london dept computing use those routines widget which only redraws exposed areas here small piece code that uses those routines static void redisplay region xtpmanagerwidget xexposeevent region region exposure region xregion xtpmanagerpart plotter exposure region xcreateregion region passed via expose event region null send event synthetic event sent widget wants full redraw exporect core exporect core exporect width core width exporect height core height else exporect exporect exporect width width exporect height height stuff deleted region now contains the exposure region xunionrectwithregion exporect exposure region exposure region else xunionregion region exposure region exposure region stuff deleted need clip expose region for redrawing the grid xsetregion xtdisplayofobject plotarea exposure region stuff deleted check see child exposed xrectinregion plotter exposure region child core child core child core width child core height build region exposures that when service container widget redraw rectobj children only redraw what need redrawn works for hope this helps you brian brian dealy not knowing where dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that important knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where not dylan
comp.windows.x	looking for file manager under twm article may ips sommer ips thorsten sommer writes out there every command line shell favourating user close your ears ehm eyes looking for file manager which can driven under twm somebody told last night there one under openwindows and there certainly one under windows but like one you know with icon click and drag directory structures shown graphic layout paper basket etc anybody got idea recently joined the motif world like similar tool for motif bene used the openwin one the past and miss cheers marc bouron desisco ltd harefield place the drive marc bouron ime mts dec com uxbridge middlesex
comp.windows.x	where can find list toolkit options just started messing with windows under linux and run into this toolkit options thing the man pages number clients where can get list these options this only xview thing would some kind soul show how set under linux rick miller rick uwm edu ricxjo discus mil ricxjo muelisto send postcard get one back enposxtigu bildkarton kaj ricevos alion rick miller woods muskego wis usa
comp.windows.x	blinking cursor xterm barmar think com barry margolin writes article may taylor uucp mark taylor uucp mark davis writes you are stuck distributed system feedback loop what you are xterminal running xterm over the net another machine that when the load problems occur you had machine with xterminals attached and they all had blinking cursors xterm this could represent considerable ethernet bandwidth waste ethernet certainly has enough bandwidth for few blinking cursors lisp machine blinks the cursor twice second and updates the time the status line every second this uses under bytes second about the bandwidth ethernet hundred them single ethernet might problem but couple dozen should fine granted nothing loose sleep over but this ethernet tragic flaw the more activity especially lots tiny activity the more collisions happen and the performance gets exponentially worse just now opposing any kind waste bandwidth under ethernet although polling system would not bad mark davis lake taylor hospital norfolk sys administrator computer services mark taylor mark taylor uucp
comp.windows.x	eventhandlers xmpushbuttons help got applications with series pushbuttons across the top toolbar wanted add eventhandlers these pushbuttons enterwindowmask and leavewindowmask that can put some descriptive text about the function each pushbutton the pointer crosses over done this fine but turned the following problem when the pushbuttons are sensitive get callbacks both the above events but when they are not sensitive only get callbacks leavewindow events this seems odd would expect this all nothing type thing this bug not can someone explain this behavior thanks mark
comp.windows.x	gui builders for vms article trident datasys swri edu mark trident datasys swri edu mark collier writes looking for gui builders uims which run vms openvms environment interested both motif tools and gui independent tools such xvt client also requires that the tool has been production for least months the vms environment note that have the list tools from the faq but not the info vms availability thanks take look teleuse complete uims from alsys formerly telesoft the you can reach them alsys have vms version teleuse for vms higher built using decwindows motif based and motif btw the vms port from the unix version was made company and was released november thomas michanek dial infologics linkoping phone email thomas michanek direct lin infolog fax
comp.windows.x	blinking cursor xterm article tbpi innfp early bird think com barmar think com barry margolin writes article may taylor uucp mark taylor uucp mark davis writes you are stuck distributed system feedback loop what you are xterminal running xterm over the net another machine that when the load problems occur you had machine with xterminals attached and they all had blinking cursors xterm this could represent considerable ethernet bandwidth waste ethernet certainly has enough bandwidth for few blinking cursors lisp machine blinks the cursor twice second and updates the time the status line every second this uses under bytes second about the bandwidth ethernet hundred them single ethernet might problem but couple dozen should fine bandwidth unlikely the problem except over wet string network one major flaws the horrendous number transactions and hence process switches that forces upon host actual measurements hourly average are per second per logged user which can lead more process switches depending whether each event filtered the window manager well the applications and how many processes are needed for each character while blinking cursor needs only the application and the networking process and does not add any transactions will add something like process switches per second per user this significant increase overhead especially the application may have quite large working set you want rapidly blinking cursor there could many you want there wouldn start from here nick maclaren university cambridge computer laboratory new museums site pembroke street cambridge england email nmm cus cam tel fax
comp.windows.x	xdm backgroundpixmap tried get rid off xdm ugly login window giving cool backgroundpixmap ressource login derived from core this should possible anyway setting xlogin backgroundpixmap xpm did not produce any message the form cannot convert string pixmap and explicitely registering such converter lead nothing too any way brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.windows.x	athena tookkit help vck rit edu vidya kayar writes currently programming athena toolkit having problems creating text widget any guidence help will greatly appreciated assume that you are literally trying create widget type textwidgetclass use the asciitext widget instead jim wight newcastle department computing science university newcastle tel newcastle upon tyne united kingdom fax
comp.windows.x	looking for converters for xpm looking for utilities for converting gifs jpegs etc xpm format any information appreciated thanks michael linehan
comp.windows.x	how iconize window have application running one window this application like iconize this window and later deiconize back window how could your help would appreciated tai thou siemens com
comp.windows.x	cool demo now available internet bristol technology announces the availability its hyperhelp and xprinter demo for downloading this demo showcases the two products the form diagram editor called download the demo and see some these exciting features for yourself complete line context sensitive help system printing support for pcl and postscript rotated text support source code for the demo provided the demo available via anonymous ftp from ftp net there are two versions the demo located the vendor bristol directory sun sun demo tar sunos tar you have any questions about the demo send mail support bristol com you want another version the demo etc please send mail info bristol com remember use binary mode what are hyperhelp and xprinter read bristol technology proud announce version its popular hyperhelp product and version xprinter hyperhelp hyperhelp the facto standard for line context sensitive help the unix marketplace through one line function call application developers can access the full features hyperhelp and cut down drastically their development time hyperhelp can use the same rtf project and bitmap files the windows help facility this allows documentation department maintain single set help documents portable between windows motif and open look hyperhelp can also authored framemaker and with hyperhelp bristol introduces its sgml compiler new features hyperhelp include secondary windows character based viewer segmented bitmaps sgml support and improved history window xprinter xprinter allows developers add sophisticated printer support their existing new based applications very easily xprinter uses the xlib api for both the display and printer this lets you use the exact same code for drawing and printing take look the source code for our demo and see xprinter action you are interested adding postscript and pcl support your application xprinter the tool for you earlier this year bristola usl signed agreement that resulted xprinter becoming the standard printing technology for unix svr feel free run the demo and let know what you think about hyperhelp and xprinter you have any questions comments send them info bristol com call happy demoing the staff bristol technology
comp.windows.x	ideas xterm paste irritation deshaw com wolf stanford edu writes moving the mouse out the xterm window before clicking will not abort the paste fact once that middle button pressed down the paste inevitable the obvious questions there some way around this and others feel that moving the mouse out xterm window before release should abort the paste would have thought this would have been common enough problem that someone would have changed xterm now but maybe just michael not just you have been aggravated many times the mouse making hay maladroitness and would ever grateful everyone who would make keyboard alternatives for all mouse actions lsrh
comp.windows.x	setting display working for company which has only one connection the internet this through firewall gateway unix workstation would like able telnet host outside the company and set the display which running terminal emulator exceed the display can set the gateway workstation with problem but when set the variable address get error can open display message this can that hard work around can btw have trouble running clients local workstations the company and having them display curtis wahlgren
comp.windows.x	tcpview doesn read xkeysymdb file howcum any tcpview for sun users out there pulled down the pre compiled executables made for sun for tcpview but getting whole slew the following types error messages when try start warning translation table syntax error unknown keysym name osfactivate warning found while parsing key osfactivate managerparentactivate warning translation table syntax error unknown keysym name osfcancel warning found while parsing key osfcancel managerparentcancel warning translation table syntax error unknown keysym name osfselect warning found while parsing key osfselect managergadgetselect but know have those keysym egrep osfactivate osfcancel osfselect openwinhome lib xkeysymdb yields osfactivate osfselect osfcancel osfselectall and take out the osf lines from said xkeysymdb copy wscrawl another motif compiled for sun program gives the same type complaints listed above any tips mystified kevin weinrich computer sciences corp kbw helios ath epa gov
comp.windows.x	xod does exist hello was wondering anyone knew interface octal dump assume would called xod actually any viewer for core file will looked export mit the index contrib but didn find anything relevant thanks hate bama winter main superman msfc nasa gov
comp.windows.x	program protocols open look toolkit all studying the book unix desktop guide open look there example winprop that demonstrate how program protocols property chapter can run but only show the static text messages notice pop what the problem thanks advance for help iop file winprop shows how set properties window include xatom for definition atom include intrinsic include stringdefs include xol openlook include xol statictext include xol oblongbutt include xol notice this file defines the atoms with prefix the top level and noticeshell widget static widget top level notice shell static widget make notice static char message clients use properties communicate with the window manager this example illustrates how open look application requests notification from the window manager when certain events occur the communication the form clientmessage event that the application processes event handler atoms used for inter client communication atom atom protocols atom delete window atom save yourself static void handle messages static void save and exit static void save yourself static void pop notice static void exit string hold comand line for use responding the save yourself protocol message char saved cmdline void main argc argv int argc char argv widget int save the command line for use responding the save yourself protocol message sprintf saved cmdline argv argc for argc strcat saved cmdline argv strcat saved cmdline create and initialize the top level widget top level olinitialize argv main null argc argv create statictext widget xtvacreatemanagedwidget stext statictextwidgetclass top level xtnstring message xtnwidth null create noticeshell widget for later use make notice top level intern the atoms atom protocols xinternatom xtdisplay protocols false atom delete window xinternatom xtdisplay delete window false atom save yourself xinternatom xtdisplay save yourself false add event handler process clientmessage events sent the window manager xtaddeventhandler top level noeventmask true handle messages null realize the widgets and start processing events xtrealizewidget top level append the properties delete window and save yourself the definition the protocols property this step requires the window the top level widget the window valid only after the widget realized xchangeproperty xtdisplay top level xtwindow top level atom protocols atom propmodeappend atom delete window xchangeproperty xtdisplay top level xtwindow top level atom protocols atom propmodeappend atom save yourself xtmainloop static void handle messages client data event widget xtpointer client data xevent event event type clientmessage event xclient message type atom protocols event xclient data atom delete window save and exit event xclient data atom save yourself save yourself static void save and exit display notice giving the user chance respond pop notice top level notice shell static void save yourself set the command property the saved command line xchangeproperty xtdisplay top level xtwindow top level command string propmodereplace saved cmdline strlen saved cmdline static widget make notice parent widget parent widget text control exit cancel create button and provide callback pop notice xtvacreatemanagedwidget quitbutton oblongbuttonwidgetclass parent xtnlabel exit null xtaddcallback xtnselect pop notice null create the noticeshell widget note that you have use xtvacreatepopupshell instead the usual xtvacreatemanagedwidget notice shell xtvacreatepopupshell quitnotice noticeshellwidgetclass null get the the text and control area widgets the noticeshell xtvagetvalues notice shell xtntextarea text xtncontrolarea control null place message the text area the noticeshell xtvasetvalues text xtnstring please confirm exit from program null add buttons the control area the noticeshell each button has appropriate callback exit xtvacreatemanagedwidget noticeexit oblongbuttonwidgetclass control xtnlabel exit null xtaddcallback exit xtnselect exit null cancel xtvacreatemanagedwidget noticecancel oblongbuttonwidgetclass control xtnlabel cancel xtndefault true null return static void pop notice emanate notice widget emanate notice xtvasetvalues notice xtnemanatewidget emanate null pop the noticeshell widget the noticeshell widget makes sure that the aplication waits until the user selects from one the buttons the noticeshell control area xtpopup notice xtgrabexclusive static void exit call data client data widget xtpointer call data client data xclosedisplay xtdisplay exit
comp.windows.x	motifbc article vtserf edu stellr smyrna edu ray stell writes install with backward compatibility for motif will motif clients work the servers works for run motif and server with motifbc defined daniel mccoy space net inc nasa mail code tel nasa johnson space center our fax houston texas future mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov
comp.windows.x	compiling ghostview under sun openwindows ftms uucp brown ftms uucp vidiot writes article curia ucc pflynn curia ucc peter flynn writes due seems sun crapulous organisation the libraries and includes most standard gnu and other software won compile out the box well tar file right now trying make ghostview complains can find xaw just linked the files from usr openwin share include and now the ghoddam thing still complains can find them still haven been able compile xdvi not way has anyone ever managed get anything normal compile sun sunos and openwindows what the trick missing even tried hard copying all the relevant files into the right places and every time there some bit missing refuses find sounds like you didn load the support for those libraries when was loaded the xaw support was missing from but added harvard ucbvax uwvax astroatc ftms brown psi com ftms brown rutgers internet brown extrel com ftms brown astroatc uucp wisc edu the library might there but not pointed library path michael
misc.forsale	maxtor info needed was unix software for sale article cup portal com thad cup portal com thad floryan writes article colinm cunews colinm max carleton colin mcfadyen writes does anyone know what the jumpers should set the maxtor have that came off that would like use useful info about the maxtor drive deleted since the normally has only one you would jumper betwwwn select the first possible drive address the your second drive the then jumper between however thad you should note that said that would like use not unix also note the strange cross posting probably did not not sure exactly what sort machine intends mount clone then the jumper would the correct choice left the cross posting effect since not sure which newsgroup would really reading this don email dnichols and com uunet ceilidh dnichols dnichols ceilidh beartrack com donald nichols don voice days eves black holes are where god dividing zero
misc.forsale	for sale misc computer parts radar detector have the following computer items for sale item condition price color ega card and monitor working monitor made zenith simms working each simms oki working each simms working each simms motorola working each simms nec working each note all the above simms left over from numerous macintosh upgrade did over the years you have questions which one fits your mac please mail back ast fastram card with working each could upgraded with the dram item dram working each dram oki working each dram hunydai working each compaq classic portable computer working floppy drives amber inch screen ram serial card working each western digital disk controller working wah bit card for floopy and harddisk logitech buttons mechanical working serial mouse full size case with working power supply full size case with working power supply this the original case for ast premium computer could have half height devices three which could floopy drives tape drive etc also including the original motherboard which condition unknown floopy drive working each floopy drive working adaptec scsi adapter brand new wangtek scsi working tape drive height mfm drive working miniscribe height mfm drive working seagate height mfm drive working seagate prodigy start kit for brand new with data fax modem the following items selling all the them are unknown condition either never get work never try hook ega card unknown multi function game clock unknown parallel serial port card monochrome graphics columns unknown graphics card cdc scsi drive unknown miniscribe scsi drive unknown prodigy start kit unknown free ast plus chip unknown seagate mfm drive unknown model bought the radar detector couple years ago for obvious reason and have never been ticketed for the past years and now don drive work anymore would rather sell whristler radar detector working bands you would like buy any the above items please mail jack acs edu also automatic discount will apply your total purchase price more except the two brand new items buyer pay shipping you think the prices listed above unrealistic please mail back and would take your advice into consideration and make the proper adjustments the reason selling this stuff because have decided that had enough with this hobby computing and want move other interests one last thing you know any non profit organization whom might interested equipments please let know because one wants buy them might well donate them and get tax break thanks jack jack acs edu bitnet ccjcc buacca jack chan boston university arpa jack edu internet jack edu
misc.forsale	maxtor info needed was unix software for sale apr and com dnichols and com don nichols writes article cup portal com thad cup portal com thad floryan writes article colinm cunews colinm max carleton colin mcfadyen writes does anyone know what the jumpers should set the maxtor have that came off that would like use useful info about the maxtor drive deleted since the normally has only one you would jumper betwwwn select the first possible drive address the your second drive the then jumper between however thad you should note that said that would like use not unix also note the strange cross posting probably did not not sure exactly what sort machine intends mount clone then the jumper would the correct choice left the cross posting effect since not sure which newsgroup would really reading this sorry for any confusion may have created the disk did come out and would like use ibm clone the reason that posted comp sys was because saw the drive mentioned for slae notice had asked for info before but didn receive any replies thanks once again for the help colin
misc.forsale	sell chemical condensers condensers kimble modern liebig west jacket length all glass straight tubes plastic gasketed end caps exactly like central scientific series condensers being sold american science surplus april catalog for each original old packaging have these each volume discounts buy discount bonus free insurance free shipping and insurance for quality control all have been opened and inspected for damage buyer must pay for shipping insurance unless otherwise noted shipping should about for one two for three four etc insurance should about per tube sugarman umb edu univ home standard disclaimer boston massachusetts usa
misc.forsale	cheap harddisk for your have few the original ibm harddisks for sale they are actually seagate mfm full height has the ibm logo and black face plate each disk checked and formatted with dos can doubled with dblspace stacker you desire have the original ibm foam fitted boxies and anti static bags not sure they were ever used but each drive that sent out will quarenteed good working order each plus shipping cost about you have one those old ibm pcs this for you cheaper than floppy drive
misc.forsale	genesis more games for sale updated and expanded sega genesis games for sale all these games just each galaxy force jordan bird one one shoot outs etc powerball test drive the duel comes box valis iii renovation also for sale sportstalk football starring joe montana all games include manual and case shipping per order day priority john baker
misc.forsale	unix software for sale hello have two for sale one them ram and the other one ram system they are both running the version and have loaded lots software them from the network like gcc emacs tex latex and asking for the and for the model best offer odysseas pentakalos odysseas umbc umbc edu university electrical engineering dept odysseas polaris medinfo umd edu
misc.forsale	quantum lps meg ide forsale netters quantum lps harddisk forsale frame height ide format master slave cyl real megs access time cache the drive asking email jakers uhunix uhcc hawaii edu
misc.forsale	bus tix for sale lehigh philly have two bus tickets for sale from bethlehem lehigh university philadelphia tickets good until august for both obo please email tsai eniac seas upenn edu call joe tsai tsai eniac seas upenn edu the wharton school the school engineering heels back back and applied science the university pennsylvania flowers often bloom night
misc.forsale	irwin tapes for sale well you have irwin here great deal for you genuine irwin accutrak tapes tapes all the avove tapes are new never used and factory preformatted email interested feng the opinions expressed are not necessarily those the university north carolina chapel hill the campus office for information technology the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu
misc.forsale	computer disk drives mouse and software for sale all finally cleaned out the storage room and have the following items for sale computer disk drives mouse all cables lots software mostly games the computer and drives work hooked the test except for sound evidently the sound chip gone when geos was loaded the mouse would not respond assume bad could used for the games for spare parts interested would accept any reasonable offers send replies ihlpl rsbrd call ron byrd
misc.forsale	buing accelerator had deal one but the buyer disappear here again the market for inexpensive accelerator for series lucas frances similair preferred you have something like this please offer address hsneits nyx edu and you propably can reach home too
misc.forsale	for sale kenwood receiver for sale kenwood audio visual surround sound receiver yrs old perfect condition still under year warranty watts front watts rear surround dobly surround video tape phono input full easy touch button control for all functions bass treble balance rear level knobs earphone input digital synthesized tuner with presets full logic remote control with volume mute tuner and other controls has three outlets the back can connect all your equipment and turn them the same time includes manuals cables and original packaging great addition for anyone starting out home theater stereo system originally purchased asking email jburgin ralph haverford edu phone thank you for your time
misc.forsale	sharp wizard for sale sharp wizard electronic organizer ram home and world clocks calendar schedular anniversary and periodic dates telephone directories business card directory calculator outliner memos screen qwerty style keyboard alarms password protection computer interface requires cable software card slot touch screen terminal builitin requires cable and modem also have have external battery pack that uses mail order price sharp battery pak asking for the whole deal unit perfect shape just don use anything but address book duane fields friends don work box let friends use home college station dos email duanef tamu edu
misc.forsale	wanted samplevision driver for smdi peavey dpm there anyone out there with copy the driver for turtle beach samplevision program that allows you use always tech scsi card smdi dumps between your and your peavey dpm this normally only available directly from turtle beach but was just wondering there was someone who got and couldn find use for you have copy let know sad icogsci ucsd edu
misc.forsale	commodore amiga for sale for sale complete amiga computer system best offer amiga ram internal external floppy diskette drive detachable keyboard two button mouse rgb monitor all the above equipment made commodore send mail allen zansiii millersv edu call
misc.forsale	jeff mason auction marvel image valiant etc the following comics are for auction the highest bid takes them new stuff added oooooh the premium comic title minimum current alpha flight jim lee first work marvel aliens app aliens comics prnt may krism three amazing spider man intro new green goblin amazing spider man appearance hobgoblin archer and armstrong frank miller smith layton avengers appearance factor bloodshot chromium cover bwsmith cover poster same once daredevil frank miller art begins dark horse presents app concrete printing detective azrael appears intro cypher harbinger appearance corps matthey sold corps incredible hulk app grey hulk since incredible hulk mcfarlane issue incredible hulk grey hulk series begins incredible hulk dale keown art hulk incredible hulk all new hulk prnt keown marvel comics presents wolverine silver surfer maxx limited ashcan copies exist blue cover brentb three signed advance copy exist new mutants mcfarlane cover app cable cameo new mutants app force new mutants annual liefeld art new mutants omega men appearance lobo omega men full lobo story power man iron fist appearance sabretooth power man iron fist appearance sabretooth simpsons comics and stories polybagged special spectacular spider man app new hobgoblin star trek the next generation feb mini star trek the next generation oct comics trianglehead special limited edition autogrphed web spider man hobgoblin wolverine appear web spider man origin rose hobgoblin appears wolverine before claws battle with sabretooth wolverine sabretooth claims wolverine dad wolverine sabretooth proven not his dad wolverine sabretooth wolverine saga concludes wolverine mini series miller art wonder woman return animal man force signed liefeld bagged force card force signed liefeld bagged shatterstar card force signed liefeld bagged deadpool card force signed liefeld bagged sunspot gideon all comics are near mint mint condition are bagged shiny polypropylene bags and backed with white acid free boards shipping for one book for more than one book free you order large enough amount stuff willing haggle have thousands and thousands other comics please let know what you been looking for and maybe can help some titles have posted here don list every issue have that title tried save space geoffrey mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
misc.forsale	comic book set sale selling the following sets comics listed are the guide prices overstreet comics values monthly wizard couldn find overstreet well price feel free ask about single items from the sets often have extra copies some the items the set all comics are near mint mint unless otherwise noted set titles guide price adventure comics set unless noted animal man set animal man animal man tpb reprint wonder woman intro animal man avengers set avengers avengers annual fish police fish police green arrow green arrow infinity gauntlet infinity gauntlet legion super heroes legion super heroes legion super heroes lone wolf and cub lone wolf and cub omega men omega men omega men annual outcasts outcasts ragman ragman retief retief volume mad dog retief volume adventure retief the silver blade silver blade slash maraud slash maraud sleepwalker sleepwalker star trek star trek marvel star trek next generation mini star trek next generation series strange adventures unless noted strange adventures superman superman superman annual superman the earth stealers superman the man steel trekker trekker trouble with girls apache dick trouble with girls eternity trouble with girls comico for vendetta for vendetta video jack video jack warlock and the infinity watch warlock and the infinity watch warriors warriors terminators terminators guarantee comic grading satisfaction you are not satisfied with the grade assigned the book you can send back and will refund your money minus shipping costs have thousands other comics you are looking for something particular please let know might able help out reserve the right refuse any offer geoffrey mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
misc.forsale	electronic components etc bunch things have too many chips type new pull price desc bit serial converter smt like pcm tms gbl dsp chip make your own mac std piggyback emulator for family nec eprom version dsp chip you gotta really want hitachi bitmapped display lots others including other stuff includes cipher tape drives data device programmer dont apple laserwriter beauty only page mac int drives cheers mike
misc.forsale	reduced sony players sale item sony cdpx condition mint age year old price item sony cdp condition excellent age years old price everything comes with the original packaging and manuals these items have only been played through audiophile system and are excellent shape you are interested need any additional information please mail andrew cmu edu call home thanks pete yes these are for sale again
misc.forsale	klipsch forte spkrs sale item klipsch forte speakers condition mint age months old price pair retail pair these speakers are perfect condition and used only audiophile system they are floor standing and come with all the original packagaing and literature they are also still under warranty you are interested have any questions please feel free mail andrew cmu edu call home thanks jon
misc.forsale	games for sale jordan flight games for sale both games original package and original docs jordan flight test drive obo contact bob rwrona ihlpb att com
misc.forsale	looking for teacher miami sounds little odd but sold amiga hand scanner elementary school teacher south florida miami think but have just recently found that still have the scanner manual the original shipment included the software manual disks packaging etc basically have since lost the name address the person sold and would like get him that person sees this please send email dlneal cbda apgea army mil thanx and sorry for taking net space dennis
misc.forsale	mazda high miles low price mazda best offer nada blue book for mileage mail call ron work home miles all highway used commute miles day speed air conditioning cassette stereo split fold down rear seat liter valve fuel injected engine roomy interior comfy back seats big trunk well maintained oil and filter every other maintanence scheduled except for the timing belt which still looks new did slip and went miles without changing the oil once tires have miles lots life left probably front brake job back brakes are still good engine trans drive train perfect condition everything works nothing needs replacing next tune scheduled body good left tail light cracked trying find used one dealer wants two long scratches and ding the hood vandalism bunch stone chips the front the hood official mazda touch paint included the deal this car extremely reliable even better than the toyota corolla replaced besides the tires brakes and maintanence items the only other parts that have been replaced are the headlight bulbs selling because wife refuses drive car without automatic trans and she wants station wagon with sun roof etc etc ron deblock rdb homxb att com that number rdb not letter bell labs somerset usa
misc.forsale	wanted beach rental seeking north carolina beach rental desire house for two families adults kids for one week late june early july fred masterson fmaster ravel udel edu psychology department fred masterson mvs udel edu university delaware gnm udelvm bitnet newark usa
misc.forsale	sweet macintosh bus card forsale have recently purchased and have more use for rasterops has been great card should have traded with iici but forgot forgetfulness your gain great bit video that supports apple apple portrait silly dos monitor resolution apple has hardware pan zoom and supports virtual desktops the size newspaper pages includes standard apple monitor cable card bnc you choose asking still advertised macworld for completely negotiable can get monitor and sell the pair will accept offers for software powerbook accessory trades make offer kohlhepp novell systems staff kohlhepp cae wisc edu computer aided engineering
misc.forsale	new young seagate hard drive greetings netters have seagate ide drive forsale bought yesterday and have been able come across that going buy but need sell this one guarantee that will work there still transferable warranty believe was only used boot drive not server source drive just want money back out thanks lot and offers appreciated dave kari sage purdue edu
misc.forsale	mac software for sale claris filemaker pro database manager for sale still package best offer call ask for larry not respond this account
misc.forsale	for sale laptop bernoulli drive scanner desktop posting this for friend please not respond this account you are interested any the following ask for rob laptop mhz cpu ram hard drive vga graphics greyscale lcd external vga port high density floppy drive removable key keyboard external keyboard port serial parallel and expansion ports expansion unit available which has full size card slots bernoulli drive dual disk drives cartridges comes with disks external unit scanner logitech scanman desktop mhz cpu ram hard drive math processor super vga graphics key keyboard mouse high density floppy drive high density floppy drive serial parallel ports
misc.forsale	stereo gear for sale cambridge audio integrated amp stereo solid state box list want cambridge audio tuner presets list want cambridge audio preamp list want klipschorns the klipschorns speakers legends there own time list want very big corner loaded will play unbelieveable volumes with very little power arthur noguerola vos stratus com
misc.forsale	for sale pontiac grand prix for sale pontiac grand prix door coupe white white rims gray interior miles mostly highway litre multi port fuel injected engine speed manual transmission one owner options include rear defogger power steering power brakes power windows power locks power mirrors cruise control power glass moonroof with sunshade power seat recliner driver power seat comfort lumbar headrest both front seats trunk pass through for skis cassette stero speakers electronic monitor service system with graphic compass stereo controls duplicated steering wheel remote keyless entry and others asking the car looks and rides like just rolled off the dealers lot has been garaged and pampered gets average mpg highway sometimes better city around mpg depending how driven selling because baby coming soon need door family car will consider trade partial trade with ford taurus mercury sable door pontiac grand similar american car live the boston area contact mike home work michaelq tlaloc stratus com
misc.forsale	scsi friend mine would like sell his scsi drive for full height drive and has been used for about one and half years anyone interested please mail thank you jeffrey berthiaume utexas edu
misc.forsale	wanted books mposting this for emplyer who doesn have net access but you can reply here and get the message him boss looking for two books the group mamas and papas papa john john phillips california dreaming told who wrote but don remember prefer hardcover but paperback will you have these and are willing sell mail here and pass the ssage along thank you scott wilson
misc.forsale	laserjet iii for sale have laserjet iii for sale been printed for less than pages according the self test report asking for interested please mail thanks
misc.forsale	power supplies each shipping two research power supplies series currently wired for vac control lines sense off pwr fail high margin current monitor they both work list price from research qty asking each shipping steve
misc.forsale	furniture sale posted for friend all brand new condition less than years old full size bed mattress box spring frame white night table drawer white dresser drawer plus mirror height white pantry entertainment center natural wood color coffee table glass top and base two white floor lamps each one foldable table four foldable chairs each interested call lourdes soto
misc.forsale	dec keyboard for sale dec keyboard for sale automatically senses machine type and switches between modes same exact key layout dec etc with dec names keys well names standard cable included great for use with vtxxx terminal emulator all the keys are there and the correct place gold etc perfect condition very good feel shipping dec price was around send email you have questions thanks keith keith radio nuwc navy mil
misc.forsale	paintball gun sale tippman special semi auto rifle round feeder inch barrel composite inch barrel composite inch barrel composite tank silencer rounds paint plus whatever else have the box all this for best offer why you take the most gallant sailor the most intrepid airman the most audacious soldier put them table together what you get the sum their fears winston churchill
misc.forsale	arcade video games for sale northern virginia for sale northern virgina arcade video games asteroids omega race both are upright video games excellent condition robert mangum email robert monster apd saic com hertford street work herndon home
misc.forsale	for sale meg esdi drive and meg dram for sale seagate esdi drive meg unformatted without controller friend has tested this his controller and says that works meg dram each please call email thanks veenu
misc.forsale	for sale system commodore disk drive joysticks mouse lotsa software both games and apps rapid fire joystick adapter all necessary cables about year old obo ommon pchang sunysb edu ense state university new york stony brook ngineer
misc.forsale	wanted wwf album looking for copy the first world wrestling federation album record format will pay for good condition record and original album jacket and inserts the album looking for has picture bunch the wrestlers ina recording studio front and back with the good guy wrestlers and the bad guy wrestlers making faces each other songs include land thousand dances something like that please email here hsano ulowell edu same account that appears the header
misc.forsale	borland app frmwrks forsale article apr ryn mro dec com shapiro sofbas enet dec com steve shapiro writes have recently converted microsoft visual longer want borland application frameworks product this version about months old have all the manuals disks etc licensed but will transfer the license the purchaser under the accepted terms the borland license agreement the list price for the product about have seen advertised for low will accept the best offer over plus shipping described above which the list price plus tossing the books listed above which are value sell mine for never used decided just don have the time get into clarke whitehead tscwhitehead weber edu
misc.forsale	color zenith for sale color zenith for sale remote control interested please call mail peng ece ucsd edu must sell apr thank you for you attention
misc.forsale	digital voice processor for sale all have korg dvp for sale for shipping for those who not had the pleasure midi controlled keyboard own rackmountable digital voice processor what can with your voice can pitch shift change the notes you sing can add harmonies your singing parts one time can change your voice into synthesizer voice but leave what you say alone and intelligible this works well for computerized sounding singer robot voice for those you who just thought about that yes you can the voices from robo cop and the old elo lead ins with and yes little red faced say that tried those specifically for input takes both xlr prong mic and cables for output you can have combination the original input only and your choice mix between the original signal and the effect can effect only desired has preset setups which you can edit and save for your own preferences has couple light scratches but does not look bad and works flawlessly even when don use music been good for after hours fun the studio the manual included never got around getting rack ears for but has only gotten studio use from roading not beaten oooooooo steve hitch opinions are own nobody would want oooo take responsibility for them anyway will oooooooooooooooooooooooooo eventually hang for them but happy ooo ooo internet shitch imd sterling com oooooooo ooo ooo uucp uunet sparky shitch
misc.forsale	rock and roll cheap have stack records that are from the early sixtys mid seventys with groups like the beatles cream woodstock triple album etc etc that would like get rid would willing sell one all for whatever resonable offer some albums still have the original wrapper and price tag would like get around for each you can call and make offer the lot could list them all but typing forever call
misc.forsale	anybody remember few weeks back there was post originating from russia advertising large quantities red mercury for sale stirred bit controversy the time then this morning npr relates the news corruption scandal involving the russian defense minister among others selling defense items among which strangely enough was red mercury you don suppose bill batty abekas video systems inc net abekas billb pyramid com
misc.forsale	printer for sale for sale pin printer alps allegra asking price shipped prepaid orders pay shipping features straight paper path won jam paper saving tear off capability need waste sheet get current printout programmable preferences you don even need computer letter quality dpi output epson emulation built card slot for additional memory font upgrades printer ribbons easily found there are three four sources for alps ribbons every computer shopper fast cps output this printer has not even been used the last two years three years old because have laser printer work and use that instead originally even throw two ribbons may need simple reinkings tho adisak pochanayon university avenue apartment madison cut here jeez never fails get the tub and there rub the lamp the genie from aladdin pochanay cae wisc edu eddie adisak pochanayon check out all silverfox software releases your amiga entertainment cut here
misc.forsale	wanted fax machine the sub says all thnx tatsuy
misc.forsale	sale bally jack lallane membership two jack lallane gold memberships are for sale the owners asking for for each membership please contact padma srini for details thanks
misc.forsale	computer stuff for sale pen plotter fujistu meg scsi tape drive sony meg scsi disk drive sticks once while dead maxtor meg esdi drive dead miniscribe meg scsi drive adaptac scsi interface board daughter boards from tape drives qic qic twist terms terms that the head twists for analog rgb color monitor khz works nice with amiga spool with feet conductor ribbon cable all prices are best offer prices not include ups shipping all items working except those stated dead matthew
misc.forsale	volkswagon scirocco for sale from mikefran wed apr edt article csc general newsgroups forsale general general csc general path wam umd edu mikefran from mikefran wam umd edu michael francis subject car for sale message apr wam umd edu keywords volkswagon scirocco sender usenet wam umd edu usenet news system nntp posting host rac wam umd edu organization workstations maryland university maryland college park distribution csc date wed apr gmt volkswagon scirocco gold exterior and interior speed transmission stereo with cassette sunroof engine good condition new tires needs work front left control arm because damage caused pothole runs well asking obo email mikefran wam umd edu
misc.forsale	toyota camry super deluxe article davidkc uucr netcom com davidk netcom com david kiviat write toyota camry top the line vehicle blue book asking miles auto transmission has everything owned meticulous automoble mechanic call ask for bob posted for friend have toyota camry deluxe for sale miles power everything grey years newer than above for all highway miles excellent condition rob fusi rwf lehigh edu new jersey ask for bob fusi
misc.forsale	metallica one have jap import one single contains one breadfan for whom the bell tolls live sanitarium live one demo make offer andy
misc.forsale	house for sale owner house for sale owner selling price owner steve and joyce harvey phone address vancouver washington legal discrition lot bush gardens recorded volume plats page records clark county builder triangle land built leader bancorp mortgage fha loan balance assumable lot size deep wide square footage improved living area and double garage area about taxes real estate taxes utilities water sewer city vancouver electric clark county pud recycle garbage vancouver sanitary insulation clark county pud weatherization completed taseca homes schools evergreen school district access shopping near and vancouver mall home discription bedroom bath ranch with new roof new paint and out new mini blinds sunken living room with vaulted ceiling corner fireplace with wood stove insert kitchen has refinished cabinets new sink new dishwasher drop range and refrigerator has ceiling fans living room and all three bedrooms well lit large double garage has new steel insulated door work bench shelves and space for washer and dryer yard discription nicely landscaped fenced yard with lots trees and shrubs garden storage shed concrete patio and security lighting trees include apple pear cherry plum and walnut
misc.forsale	vouchers for sale must sell items for sale nishika camera takes very good picture never been opended used came with wide angle flesh carring case film and instruction video has four lens and created effect regular film jewelry came with the package additional gift bahama vacation voucher the voucher good for two airfare freeport the users get special hotel rate per person per night meals ground transfer hotel tax not included las vegas reno orlando the voucher provides one airfare and hotel accomodation for days nights meals ground transfer hotel tax not included the voucher good for all locations but you can travel all places once cancun mexico the voucher provides one airfare and hotel accomodation for days nights meals and ground transfer hotel tax not included usual asking for best offer paid for the whole package and too late for get the refund would sell for for the whole package details could provided request wish sell the whole package once you are just looking for the vacation vouchers don care you sell the camera other for higher price you are interested the camera you could treat the vacation vouchers gift some you might receive letter your mail box which says that you are selected part the sweeptake and you have least one out five awards trust you would get the exactly the same package did there only one award which will given away don bother even call them back you are really interested you could get from for cheaper price and you could receive the package within week waited three months get first and final packages also they would ask for your credit card number and you have pay for the interest the credit card company why spend more than you should when you could get them from for cheaper price you are interested please reply soon posible really wish get this over with make offer confortable with your offer would send the package the next day morning more details could given you wish please contact koutd hirama hiram edu douglas kou hiram college mail address koutd hirama hiram edu
misc.forsale	robotics dual standard modem sale article apr samba oit unc edu sean donovan launchpad unc edu sean donovan writes robotics external dual standard latest roms still under warranty bis bis mnp hst compatible well over sells for well over mail order sells for here southern california almost everywhere dave demers demers ucsd edu computer science engineering demers ucsd bitnet san diego ucsd demers jolla fax
misc.forsale	car for sale corrado posting this for friend but you can mail questions gyeh bellcore com however the best way get your questions answered call the phone number listed for sale volkswagon corrado coupe low mileage approx miles speed manual speaker factory blaupunkt stereo system new all weather yokohamas sun roof red speed activated spoiler extra set tires pirelli equipped with factory winter package heated seats mirrors and nozzles alpine security system with remotes all records documentation service pampered car mint condition must sacrifice best offer call
misc.forsale	vhs video for sale this not the same movie that sold mcdonald for new
misc.forsale	drum acc analog synth computer things cheap hitachi player needs spin motor shipped joysticks ibm apple joystick three fire buttons apple joy stick kraft track ball make offers coleco vision items two working consoles working controllers great shape one roller ball controller two super action conrollers one standard joystick games baseball rocky football vic and with powersupplies and modulators make offer vic catridges raid fort knox omega race early epiphone acoustic guitar spruce top mohogany back sides and neck adjustable bridge plays very nice small hole side for jack had pickup one time shipping yamaha analog synthesizer three octave keyboard vco single oscillator range from tone sources saw tooth square noise and external sound vca can modulated vcf cut off resonance lfo mod envelope generator depth pitch bend slider and out trigger and out external tone source the keyboard perfect working order and colored black and white shipping drum stuff north heavy duty hat stand older stand but definately working shape could use little clean comes with clutch and felts etc pearl bass drum pedal with felt beater honer cymbal stand needs some work cymbal stem zildjian ride cymbal main line zildjian older ride cymbal ludwig snare stand okay snare stand not like remo though shipping extra please email you have questions about anything please email stephen jones sdf system administrator smj sdf lonestar org
misc.forsale	ibm mhz adaptec scsi systm would like sell model with its kingston now mhz processor cyrix fasmath coprocessor cpu fpu landmark scores mhz mhz meg meg total ast advantage board wait state original meg hard drive and very fast adaptec scsi controller card worth around new with software control any external internal scsi device including dos and keyboard the vga will drive any multisynching straight vga cheap monitor please email directly with inquiries offers can return phone you via email
misc.forsale	toshiba notebook for sale for sale toshiba notebook computer specs cache mhz ram meg ide hard drive meg floppy lbs nickle hydride battery installed edgelit greyscale vga display mouse port external keyboard port pcmcia port external expansion port external vga port serial parallel ports socket for numeric coprocessor user installable memory expandable meg voted editor choice magazine expansion station available from toshiba axionics also makes one that more economical power conservation options user definable hard drive powerdown period screen dimming auto stepdown cpu speed mhz after definable interval etc comments purchased locally micro center columbus months ago all original packaging receipts and manuals are included under warranty the keyboard this machine the best seen prefer the keyboard most desktop units typically get hours battery life the battery recharges hours full charge the machine quite speedy run beta currently and will leave this operating system installed unless you prefer dos included include padded carrying case also made toshiba price terms semi firm certified check outside columbus will pay for cod shipping please respond with all queries grichard cis ohio state edu call golden richard iii osu dept computer and information sciences grichard cis ohio state edu
misc.forsale	tapes for sale the following cassette tapes are for sale each each for multiple orders shipping included trades can arranged some the cases are somewhat worn with few cracks but the tapes are all good condition and sound fine mail the posting account thanks the who who greatest hits bachman turner overdrive best bto far van halen the doors the best the doors the cars door door the cars greatest hits phil collins face value jacket required tears for fears songs from the big chair thanks dave david hillman nothing measurable matters the university chicago very good god damn dahillma midway uchicago edu cummings
misc.forsale	toyota camry toyota camry deluxe model power windows power door locks power steering power brakes cassette highway miles excellent condition day until after ask for bob fusi rob fusi rwf lehigh edu mail call for more info
misc.forsale	vhs movies must sell because moving article apr hiramb hiram edu koutd hiramb hiram edu dougla kou writes those vhs movies have sold because moving weeks douglas kou how much room can videotapes take the moving van why not just take them with you bsme mba looking for job hiring mail jwg lehigh edu take walk the wild side biffman lehigh university bethlehem usa
misc.forsale	test test
misc.forsale	transformer wanted for dead compacq vga monitor compacq vga monitor dead due the transformer failure you have this part and would like get rid pls let know thanks eric
misc.forsale	sony amplifier and crossover for sale for sale sony car stereo amplifier model rated power into ohms from thd ohm stable short circuit and overload protected this great little amplifier that picked demo model lechmere last spring and never got chance install been tested and works great perfect amplifier for adding speaker power system for powering mids tweets whatever mounted board complete with amp noise filter with all connections made barrier strips for easy screw type contacts lists new crutchfield for asking complete sony electronic crossover model xec freq response ratio wtd high pass over flat octave low pas over octave din size for dash installation many cars this exceptional unit which found extremely useful back the days when had car put stereo two sets rca type inputs and three sets outputs sub each output with seperate level control variable low boost control for extending low bass and seperate high and low pass crossover points make this great unit for anybody who interested building sub satellite type system used with orig box papers both units work flawlessly and are excellent shape cosmtically scratches etc anyone who interested please respond coates wpi wpi edu happy answer any questions you might have yeah you want both sell the amp with over for thanks jeff
misc.forsale	wanted sharp looking but sharp scientific calculator the model discontinued but you know any dealer which may have them around please reply jason does the word duh mean jason adam kahana anything you kahana ils nwu edu northwestern university buffy the vampire slayer the institute for the learning sciences
misc.forsale	moving sale moving sale large table four drawer dresser five shelf book case chair speed bicycle khs brand microwave oven call
misc.forsale	for sale hayes external modem personal modem for mac have for sale hayes personal modem external for the macintosh really nice small think plugs directly into power plug ands has two long cables for the phone and the other your macintosh get back you are interested with offer thanks advance khoh usc edu
misc.forsale	for sale casio boss personal business organizer casio organizer with casiolink hardware software nice personal organizer that excellent shape allows you store phone numbers addresses searches etc business cards info schedules and calender and also provides home work time and calculator also has password protection and alarms nice line lcd screen and mini qwerty keyboard comes with casiolink that lets you interface with your computer mac ibm and transmit receive data all forms have the software for the macintosh that runs nifty tool for people the you are interested please email offer thanks have necessary instruction manuals and all cables thanks khoh usc edu
misc.forsale	for sale direct slot adapter card for the mac iisi for sale direct slot adapter card for the mac iisi with mac coprocessor well this what you are looking for let know email offer well you are interested thanks khoh usc edu
misc.forsale	for sale meg simms for the macintosh for sale have four meg simms for the macintosh you want upgrade that mac iisi iici whatever email your offer thanks khoh usc edu
misc.forsale	for sale silverlining hard disk management software last two copies silverlining from cie for sale this disk management software lets you evalulate test hard drive install and test drivers partition disks supports aux prodos etc nice piece software have around the house you are interested please email your offers first good offer also gets mactree disk organization software free khoh usc edu
misc.forsale	for sale meg simms for the macintosh have for sale two meg simms for the macintosh aka fastones you are interested please email offer khoh usc edu
misc.forsale	for sale practical peripherals external modem nice little really compact cream colored external modem good for the mac ibm will throw cable for extra you are interested email offer khoh usc edu
misc.forsale	amiga and hst for sale cheap for sale amiga megs ram monitor extra external hard drive much sotware games graphics productivity etc usr hst modem not dual standard amiga software usr hst modem price for both rrmorris midway ecn uoknor edu
misc.forsale	for sale cdrom searchdisc uswest phone directory have for sale teh uswest searchdisc cdrom phone directory this has the names phone number address business residence information for all regions covered west states includes oregon washington colorado new mexico arizona idaho wyoming montana utah minnesota nebraska iowa north dakota and south dakota have have two cdrom disks one for june the other for oct you are interested make offer thanks khoh usc edu
misc.forsale	genesis sega games forsale sega genesis sega forsale recently moved with some friends who have genesis player selling whole setup like sell everything together the package come with sega genesis sega joysticks pad sewer shark sol feace sega classics games streets rage revenge shinobi columns golden axe sherlock holmes music graphics sampler john madden cart selling all the above for plus split shipping don want sell things seperately please reply jth bach udel edu thanks jay
misc.forsale	for sale for sale meg ram meg maxtor ide hard disk ami bios stb powergraph svga loop color svga monitor dot pitch diskette drives desktop case turbo reset switches hard drive led keyboard serial parallel game port serial button fully compatible mouse everex bps external modem with mnp dos windows logitech scanman handscanner with all software docs box asking for system call norton the range
misc.forsale	many business books for sale good prices have the following busines books best sellers for sale all excellent order you are interested email offer zapp the lightning empowerment william pyham jeff cox harmony books beware the naked man who offers you his shirt harvey mackay william morrow what they still don reach you harvard mark mccormack bantam books megatrends new directions for the john nisbitt aburdene william morrow phone power george walther putnam books what every supervisor should know liester bittel newstrom mcgraw hill maximarketing new directions advertising stan rapps tom collins mcgraw hill outsmarting the competition john mcgongale sourcebooks professional speaking lilyan wilder simon schuster managing management time william ocken prentice hall getting praised raised and recognized muriel solomon prentice hall getting what you want how reach agreement kare anderson dutton let talk quality philip crosby mcgraw hill frontal attack divide and conquer richard buskirk wiley den thieves james stewart simon schuster vision stanley davis bill davidson fireside simon schuster you are intersted email please khoh usc edu
misc.forsale	items for sale less items for sale price listed best offer kfc svga monitor non interlaced screen still under warranty brand new baud compuadd modem box docs software cga monitor with cga parallel card sco unix unlimited user has the base and extended utilities and uucp turbo turbo the complete reference book serial card serial port joystick three button ide controller with serial parallel and one game port each ask for ralf
misc.forsale	foot switches and guitar got foot switches for sale they appear designed for studio use they very well built diameter cord like but also like sell them make offer also just bought new ibanez guitar need sell one others kramer with passive emg pickups single one double these pickups sound great and are whisper quiet like get for jason settle down raise family join the pta buy some sensible shoes and chevrolet and party till you broke and they drag you away yankovic
misc.forsale	hard drive ide only months old upgrading hard drive selling this drive run great without any problem for and share the shipping eric
misc.forsale	software for sale window works tool dos have the following software for sale prices are neogotiable window gateway with manuals work with manuals tools with all manuals dos all softwares are almost new eric
misc.forsale	wanted calculator hello looking for calculator anyone has one they are getting rid please let know reply jmparkin mtu edu thanks jeremy jeremy parkinson aka slimy give right arm ambitexterous jmparkin mtu edu unknown
misc.forsale	forsale searay hello parents are selling foot searay excellent condition and runs great has mercruiser inboard outboard engine actually chevy from the weekender class has hard top over the driver has table stove water tank sink sleeping for much more good all around fishing boat interested for more info write tojmparkin mtu edu call thanks jeremy jeremy parkinson aka slimy give right arm ambitexterous jmparkin mtu edu unknown
misc.forsale	scsi for sale please reply the seller below formatted scsi hard disk rodime available new drives unused capacity formatted mbytes number data heads number cylinders track density tpi positioning times track track average full stroke max rotational speed rpm avg rotational latency scsi bus transfer rate sec cache guaranteed against doa works with sun mac misc other workstations these are internal drives external drive enclosure included price each including cod insured shipping within the continental please email responses lee lee polarsun rna rockefeller edu
misc.forsale	honda accord for sale honda accord cyl hatchback speed miles with stereo cassette clutch alternator battery carburator rebuilt registration expires feb asking price please call fulvio location stevens creek blv cupertino
misc.forsale	sony camcorder for sale for sale sony camcorder model pro top the line few years ago autofocus with macro capability zoom lux rating pixel ccd chip the best made for camcorder input output jacks all cables included convertor switcher for without input adaptor charger battery neck trap user manual mint condition list price for this model was paid mail order few years ago will sacrifice for best offer reason for sale upgrade model john bell labs naperville usa email uucp att ihlpe jnl internet jnl ihlpe att com
misc.forsale	sony camcorder for sale for sale sony camcorder model pro top the line few years ago autofocus with macro capability zoom lux rating pixel ccd chip the best made for camcorder input output jacks all cables included convertor switcher for without input adaptor charger battery neck trap user manual original box packings etc mint condition list price for this model was paid mail order few years ago will sacrifice for best offer reason for sale upgrade model john bell labs naperville usa email uucp att ihlpe jnl internet jnl ihlpe att com
misc.forsale	claris filemaker for mac claris filemaker pro database manager for macintosh still unpackaged best offer please call not respond this account
misc.forsale	wanted pasadenas cassette very good group came out called the pasadenas bought their cassette single and fell love with tried find their but have had success whatsoever just wondering whether anyone out netland had heard them their song that hit the charts was called tribute thanks jay jhdickerson amh amherst edu jhdicker amhux amherst edu
misc.forsale	sherwood stereo reciever for sale for sale sherwood stereo reciever memory presets think may watts per channel best offer please reply prism gatech edu thomas oates atlanta braves prism gatech edu national league champions prodigy ngdr can stop the chop georgia institute technology
misc.forsale	dos for sale for sale dos upgrade open but unregistered disks best offer please mail replies prism gatech edu thomas oates atlanta braves prism gatech edu national league champions prodigy ngdr can stop the chop georgia institute technology
misc.forsale	tools for sale for sale tools version all original disks and manuals included best offer please send replies prism gatech edu thomas oates atlanta braves prism gatech edu national league champions prodigy ngdr can stop the chop georgia institute technology
misc.forsale	for sale mazda mazda spd cassette cruise tilt steering white burgundy interior excellent condition miles best offer rhonda rhonda gaines systems network administrator internet gaines fibercom com fibercom inc box uucp uunet fibercom gaines roanoke fax phone
misc.forsale	photographic stuff sell photographic spring cleaning following partial list with more come soon for exakta tessar lens plus front cap case meyer oreston lens plus front cap spiratone telxtender model plus orig case piesker berlin extension bellows orig box entire package for plus shipping for pentax other universal screw mount cameras spiratone lens plus caps fujinon lens orig case aetna coligon lens plus caps entire package plus shipping enlarging lenses prinz nikkor rodenstock ysaron busch pressman model with wollensak velostigmat rapax shutter hexacon slr with tessar plus case shutter sluggish but collectible thus rolleicord synchro compur xenar with case orig lens cap some fool got oil the shutter blades shutter sluggish olympus body oil viewfinder appears work fine other wise lens cotact printing frame strips lockdown plate glass cover excellent condition omega developing tank reels nikkor developing tank reels kodak polycontrast filter set prices above exclusive shipping conserve bandwith and don come back with petty offers however will consider trades interesting exakta equipment for toward any the above still digging out leitz reprovit iia minox enlarger busch pressman nikkor reels and tanks some lenses shutters lenses shutters mail interested and thanks for reading this
misc.forsale	mother board sale chip set mother board bios with meg ram reply with reasonable offer you are interested thanks james
misc.forsale	for sale kenwood receiver article ual venus haverford edu jburgin ralph haverford edu joshua marc burgin writes for sale kenwood audio visual surround sound receiver just follow note have sold the receiver don mail call anymore sorry dissapoint anyone joshua
misc.forsale	tools tools all original disk manual registration card included disk size price shipping martin mahdiarwi wmich edu
misc.forsale	scsi disk for sale have new opened box tested drive toshiba disk for sale formatted scsi year warranty thought this would work but need larger drive for system asking this great opportunity let hear from you
misc.forsale	jeff mason auction marvel valiant image etc the following comics are for auction the highest bid takes them title minimum current alpha flight jim lee first work marvel aliens app aliens comics prnt may krism sold amazing spider man intro new green goblin amazing spider man appearance hobgoblin archer and armstrong frank miller smith layton avengers appearance factor bloodshot chromium cover bwsmith cover poster same three cyberrad reintro cyberrad prestige silver edition daredevil frank miller art begins dark horse presents app concrete printing detective azrael appears intro cypher detective azrael appears harbinger appearance corps matthey sold corps incredible hulk app grey hulk since incredible hulk mcfarlane issue incredible hulk grey hulk series begins incredible hulk dale keown art hulk incredible hulk all new hulk prnt keown marvel comics presents wolverine silver surfer marvel presents charleston chew giveaway sam keith maxx limited ashcan copies exist blue cover brentb sold signed advance copy exist new mutants mcfarlane cover app cable cameo new mutants app force new mutants annual liefeld art new mutants omega men appearance lobo omega men full lobo story power man iron fist appearance sabretooth power man iron fist appearance sabretooth simpsons comics and stories polybagged special spectacular spider man app new hobgoblin spider man special unicef giveaway venom star trek the next generation feb mini star trek the next generation oct comics trianglehead special limited edition autographed web spider man hobgoblin wolverine appear web spider man origin rose hobgoblin appears wolverine before claws battle with sabretooth wolverine sabretooth claims wolverine dad wolverine sabretooth proven not his dad wolverine sabretooth wolverine saga concludes wolverine mini series miller art wonder woman return animal man force signed liefeld bagged force card force signed liefeld bagged shatterstar card force signed liefeld bagged deadpool card force signed liefeld bagged sunspot gideon all comics are near mint mint condition are bagged shiny polypropylene bags and backed with white acid free boards shipping for one book for more than one book free you order large enough amount stuff willing haggle have thousands and thousands other comics please let know what you been looking for and maybe can help some titles have posted here don list every issue have that title tried save space geoffrey mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
misc.forsale	metallica for sale addition sorry forgot add its jap import andy
misc.forsale	cameras for sale have the following complete camera kits for sale minolta with three lenses ricoh with zoom lens nikon autofocus nikkor mint mail for more details
misc.forsale	nikkor for sale nikkor for immediate sale excellent condition send mail for details
misc.forsale	slr camera zoom for sale great slr camera ricoh for sale has all the nikon features and also shutter speeds form seconds and down excellent condition with accessories such zoom lens very reasonable price send mail
misc.forsale	vhs broadcast tapes forsale have fresh stock vhs broadcast master tapes album covers forsale all unopened and still plastic will sell the lot for they are worth around discount video warehouse fuji broadcast master send mail
misc.forsale	aircraft for sale leasing our firm position either sell lease the serverses one air cargo transport aircraft with the complete technical repair terms delivery the price the aircraft the price leasing per month with the guarantee flight time more than hours this price includes the price the aircraft the price insurance the aircraft and the pilots the price leasing does not include the fuel price the price technical service taxes airport taxes air navigations expenses the payments hangspace loading unloading and insurance cargo days payments for pilot food and accomodation expenses transport expenses terms are negotiable you are interested please contact your earliest convenients respectedly yours andrey divaev moscow tel fax rusian tools ltd
misc.forsale	one way omaha seattle plane ticket female one way omaha seattle ticket name jessamyn west for travel must picked omaha airport thereabouts continental airlines make offer reply jwest hamp hampshire edu
misc.forsale	supra modem for scale having upgraded supra fax modem supra modem for sale approx years old excellent working condition send email rosen ringer utsa edu call bruce rosen
misc.forsale	ftp tcp ver for sale cheap for sale ftp software inc tcp networking software for dos version with lan driver for cards others you can get from ftp itself serial numbers orignal diskettes tcp telnet ftp ping lpr finger etc copies cheap each
misc.forsale	porcessor cpu fellows still have got bunch intel cpu and intel coprocessors buy set for for shipping individually and interested respond here call fax rtd spectrx saigon com ramesh daryani spectrox systems silicon valley
misc.forsale	pcs fellows have pcs for shipping total interested respond here call fax rtd spectrx saigon com ramesh daryani spectrox systems silicon valley
misc.forsale	nikon camera nikon camera lens and camera case package send mail
misc.forsale	texas instuments calculator texas instruments calculalor excellent scientific calculator best offer
misc.forsale	cds sale please reply the following address hani akhras jhuapl edu the following discs are for sale all discs are postage paid camouflage methods silence ppd revenge one true passion ppd cabaret voltaire technology western works ppd soul soul keep moving ppd soul soul vol new decade ppd lee perry the upsetters all the hits ppd the daou head music ppd bizzare inc energique ppd the following cassettes are for sale minimum living box living box michael jackson thriller olivia newton john physical steel pulse reggae greats please reply the following address hani akhras jhuapl edu
misc.forsale	wanted tandem bicycle looking for tandem bicycle any make any model and any condition would prefer complete bike but just tandem frameset too please email you have one for sale will pay shipping from anywhere canada john ching jching watnow waterloo edu pattern analysis and machine intelligence group department systems design engineering university waterloo canada
misc.forsale	genesis more games for sale updated and expanded selling joe montana sportstalk football for the genesis for bucksm which will include shipping firt come first some
misc.forsale	books for sale cheap someone please buy these books not asking much just make offer and will probably take writing good software fortran graham smith the holt handbook kirszner mandell copyright page writing guide general chemistry principles modern applications petrucci fourth edition big book very good condition solutions manual for chemistry book paperback study guide for chemistry book paperback send your offers via email chopin udel edu sam chopin udel edu
misc.forsale	desert storm cards for sale have some desert storm cards for sale have divided them into two lots will take the highest bid before just drop line with your bid lot desert storm coalition for peace topps cards series topps cards lot desert storm pro set cards sticker card sam chopin udel edu
misc.forsale	math physics gre books forsale most these are books there are also some math and physics books for books marked new the condition perfect all other books are good condition shipping buyer pays per book here the list you hate the prices email offer title author orig price asking price communication networks new walrand computer origanisation and architecture stallings edition and the design expert systems lugar stubberfiled artificial intelligence new patrick henry winston edition operating system concepts silberschaltz peterson galvin book kelley pohl edition teach youself siegal understanding hard disk management new the jonathan kamin math freshmen calculus big hard cover book discrete math with application susanna epp course linear algebra new damiano little schaum outline series linear algebra physics foundations physics new halliday resnick edition also selling gre books both are brand new never used arco gre general test big red book arco computer science gre please send email interested gewong orixa mtholyoke edu box germain wong gewong mhc mtholyoke edu mount holyoke college tel south hadley
misc.forsale	sams comics for sale cheap instead holding auction have decided compute prices for each comic after many suggestions these are the most reasonable prices can give not negotiable you would like purchase comic group simply email with the title and issue you want the price for each issue shown beside each comic first come first served there more bidding meet price and yours can reached this email address chopin udel edu ravel udel edu bach udel edu brahms udel edu more haggling about the price lots comics for look list shipping for comics for more than the price will determined the volume the purchase may have use big heavy box for large orders which costs more mail for all those who have bought comics from thanks all comics are near mint unless otherwise noted books were graded mile high comics and other comic professional collectors not here the list reserved means that have made deal with person and waiting for the check arrive reserved comics are good sold sorry incredible hulk another hulk captain marvel double size issue silver surfer thor coastal avengers reserved thing werewolf night reserved copy punisher punisher war journal ghost rider ghost rider punisher armory original ghost rider rides again reprint ghost rider old series reserved johnny blaze reserved copies origin dream each ghost rider new series print green glow dark cover copy print gold cover glow cover web spiderman copies each hulk copy left spiderhulk copy left deadly foes spiderman copies each amazing spiderman octopus special nacme issue amazing spiderman doom copy left spiderman silver not bagged copies each wolverine copy left enemy ace special new warriors gold cover superman man steel superman new copies each adventures superman annual superman annual armegedon tie action comics avengers west coast hawkeye agent batman robin returns annual armegedon tie captain america hulk hulk armegedon foolkiller infinity gauntlet double dragon deathlok series transformers last issue wonder man flaming carrot ninja turtles the comet legend the shield justice society america official movie mag from turtles movie sealed jelloman comic robin copies poster print copies each guardians the galaxy copies each copies each superman amazing spiderman oversized issue from reserved darkhawk copies each copies each thor juggernaut ghost rider thor loki copies each new thor annual what alpha flight fant new mutants last issue look force print copies each print gold cover flash new annual uncanny men copies each copy left print gold print defenders hulk sub mariner fantastic four copies each wolverine reserved cable copies each silver surfer foil cover only copy left avengers origin rage factor green lantern copies each toxic avenger copies each sleepwalker copies each kool aid man sealed white bag copies each force bagged cable card bagged shatterstar card nfl superpro strange hawkworld annual print armegedon tie hawk dove annual armegedon tie justice league america annual armegedon tie send all comments chopin udel edu thanks sam the comic book collector college electrical engineering university delaware
misc.forsale	sale calculator sharp brand pocket computer model dimensions inches has digit lcd display rubber keys alphabet built basic prog language pin socketed interface for optional cassette drive don have slide over reversable plastic cover sorry owners manual program two still memory asking shipping about thanks pete mwieu cmuvm cmich edu
misc.forsale	blondie card board jig saw puzzle for sale for sale king feature syndicate jaymar specialty company fifth avenue new york cardboard puzzle box pieces worn from use missing pieces size inches inches puzzle pieces puzzle depicts dagwood blondie the kids and dog daisey with her puppies picnic with dagwood and alexander trying get fishing line out tree plus shipping charges can reached email call judy diehl
misc.forsale	games books for sale have the following for sale for each plus shipping body count without cop killer mtv raps volume skid row album bryan adams waking the neighbours temple the dog music factory gonna make you sweat ibm games eye the beholder with cluebook pools darkness jet fighter books ancient egypt social history retail will sell for encyclopedia ancient egypt hardcover pages encyclopedia physics hardcover pages shipping also books and games yes haggle mail offers vormooth athena mit edu
misc.forsale	lynx games for sale trade got the following lynx games for sale trade make offer batman returns pinball jam paperboy gates zendecon brian oplinger crd com include standard disclaimer
misc.forsale	games for sale trade have the following games for sale trade make offer cards type sidearms alien crush neutopia tricky kick ninja spirit somer assault lords the rising sun sherlock holmes brian oplinger crd com include standard disclaimer
misc.forsale	game gear games for sale trade have the following games for sale trade make offer crystal warriors junction revenge drancon psychic world castle illusion starring micky mouse chessmaster brian oplinger crd com include standard disclaimer
misc.forsale	genesis games for sale trade have the following games for sale trade make offer trouble shooter where time carmen sandiego brian oplinger crd com include standard disclaimer
misc.forsale	lds forsale have the following lds for sale for each additional postage class paid project japanese english dominion act japanese english dominion act japanese english far from the madding crowd lbx west side story lbx ben hur the dirty dozen star trek the fabuluos fleischer folio vol tom and jerry classics bugs bunny classics brian oplinger crd com include standard disclaimer
misc.forsale	marx brother vhs forsale have the following marx brothers tapes forsale would like sell them batch possible all except are new carfully stored copies bought now own the laserdisks mgm day the races the circus the big store mca hourse feathers the cocoanuts duck soup animal crackers brian oplinger crd com include standard disclaimer
misc.forsale	scsi for sale ops mgr georgian tigger jvnc net wrote please reply the seller below formatted scsi hard disk rodime available warning have had bad experience with this model and know several others who also have run into difficulties the drives will work just limited period time and after that the disk will report medium error dont ask for details disk just stone dead david david jonsson voice fax box postal giro uppsala internet mail djo tdb sweden
misc.forsale	florida vacation package for sale hello this package the right thing for you you are planning short vacation central florida for you get four nights first class hotels for two adults and three children two nights each orlendo and daytona beach you will pay additional state tax day required law great coupon book for major tourist atractions restaurants etc fully transferable expires can extended for whole year for only more you need make reservation days advance otherwise the availability hotel not ganranteed price negotiable the reason selling because missed the deadline using for last chrismas interested email midway uchicago edu
misc.forsale	for sale toyota supra toyota supra fully loaded automatic maroon color with leather interior alpine stereo system with changer alpine car alarm miles great condition one owner have leave country june asking please call and ask for cary bernard lin departmental research assistant computing and information services columbia business school
misc.forsale	camera olymypus stylus pocket camera olympus stylus pocket camera smallest its class includes time date stamp battery carrying case red eye reduction timer fully automatic rated consumer reports obo jason yow human factors psychology program wright state university dayton mail jyow desire wright edu
misc.forsale	classic rock tapes for sale there again still have few tapes left before they are each postage paid class multiple orders appreciated but not necessary package deals welcome thanks chris bray lewis huey sports contains heart rock and roll heart and soul want new drug walking thin line this and more hooters nervous night contains and danced day day all you zombies nervous night poison look what the cat dragged their tape contains cry tough wont forget you talk dirty and more hall oates big bam boom contains out touch possession obsession and more ratt out the cellar contains wanted man round and round and more quiet riot condition critical contains mama weer all krazy now outfield play deep contains say isn your love all the love the world and more plant robert shaken stirred contains little little plus more journey raised radio contains girl cant help suzanne good yourself ill alright without you why cant this night forever duran duran arena contains there something should know hungry like the wolf new religon wild boys planet earth and more monkees then and now the best the monkees contains all their big hits plus some inxs kick contains mediate new sensation devil inside need you tonight never tear apart mystify and more great tape csb engr uark edu chris bray cbray uafhp uark edu university arkansas fayetteville think someone should have had the decency tell the luncheon was free make someone run out with potato salad his hand pretending like throwing not what call hospitality
misc.forsale	wanted pay per view from paris trying obtain copy guns roses pay per view last summer from paris anyone has copy they would like sell could make copy please mail thanks
misc.forsale	mountain view house for sale three bedrooms one updated bath professionally lanscaped front yard sprinklers utilities attached one car garage recently painted inside convenient commute location schools whisman elementary crittenden high mountain view high for more information contact beverly morgan contempo realty
misc.forsale	machinist tools wanted looking buy machinist tools any kind you have any know any for sale please leave mail and get back you promptly frank
misc.forsale	unleashed have copy the book new not read plus you can pickup the book has over pages and quite heavy feng the opinions expressed are not necessarily those the university north carolina chapel hill the campus office for information technology the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu
misc.forsale	probes and plugs for oscilloscope function generator greetings have sets plugs for your oscilloscope function hooks also have sets probes they have multipliers and there also ref switch all these probes and plugs are excellent conditions interested please make offer will respond your replies wed
misc.forsale	probes plugs for oscilloscope function generator greetings sorry for the typos clipper hooks the plugs are supposed have black and red mini
misc.forsale	for sale scooter for sale red honda scooter need license max speed mph gas mileage mpg max lbs odo reading miles has only been out the factory for years very low mileage original owner all paperwork available very thorough tune ups quarterly year body not scratch garaged and covered always cover and helmets included good for student light commuter for fun best offer mail call evenings susan hodapp live north carolina raleigh and will moving indiana may could drop off somewhere inbetween
misc.forsale	language and other books for sale your price list price memory management techniques len dorfman marc neuberger includes disk borland handbook second edition covers version chris pappas william murray iii converting turbo len dorfman includes disk the art herbert schildt includes disk using turbo herbert schildt the complete reference second edition herbert schildt using version bruce eckel advanced herbert schildt second edition high performance interactive graphics lee adams examples done basic high performance cad graphics lee adams pctools the complete reference second edition versions and bender dvorak inside track dos and performance john dvorak nick anis advanced quick edition version werner feibel wordperfect the complete reference series edition karen acerson using ventura publisher que this book covers the first version but might good for newer versions too using kris jamsa this book for version obviously using generic cadd levels ray freeman iii will pay shipping only the usa ekarabin magnus acs ohio state edu compuserve com ekarabin csi compuserve com
misc.forsale	used cds for sale nova mob last days pompeii ppd overwhelming colorfast overwhelming colorfast ppd teenage fanclub bandwagonesque ppd tin machine tin machine ppd various teriyaki asthma comp ppd rob rob msc cornell edu
misc.forsale	comics for sale marvel some indie small comic collection for sale all issues are unless otherwise noted prices are flexible for large purchases buyer pays shipping means the comic was ordered and bagged with backing upon arrival and has never been read opened numbers parenthesis represent the number multiple copies graded price fantasy masterpieces silver surfer second series firestorm original series the fury firestorm second series human fly human torch indiana jones kazar legion super heroes machine man space oddessy origin micronauts new gods outsiders ragman rom secret origins blue beetle secret wars shade the changing man original series thing thor the mighty thor dbl iss graded price ambush bug stocking stuffer avengers batman the outsiders beauty the beast issues cloak dagger daredevil deadman haney adams deadman helfer lopez issue limited series doctor strange fantastic four firestar iss hercules iss date stamp iron man dbl iss laser eraser and pressbutton eclipse marvel fanfare epic marvel universe moonshadow epic issues nightcrawler iss squadron supreme iss vision the scarlet witch iss vision the scarlet witch iss men alpha flight iss graded price alien legion epic issues alpha flight crisis infinite earths daredevil miller written and drawn elfquest warp third printing hulk both byrne marc spector moon knight new mutants factor men serious inquiries only alpha flight men crossover wolverine appearance daredevil miller plot miller script starts miller teenage mutant ninja turtles second printing comic size first printing magazine size first printing comic size michelangelo original printing fugitoid original printing raphael original printing factor men the new teen titans marvel crossover darkseid rob msc cornell edu
misc.forsale	sale bulk enviro shirts not company thus this not commercial sale purchased shirts last fall for fund raiser that fell through didn have the time sell the shirts have about shirts left and willing sell them you for piece more than dollar discount what you would have paid the supplier for the shirts even bulk that for shirts these shirts are jim morris shirts they are all cotton and most have more than colors they are clean and neatly folded box any happen damaged will refund your money for each damaged shirt replace your option you could sell them for least piece the higher number for the nicer shirts raise money for school event organization realize big investment but could pay off big would willing sell the shirts lots but only shirt will pay shipping but prefer local buyers and will give them more bargaining power please help not have the time sell these shirts and need the money taking big loss selling this cheap will give you jim morris phone number that you can varify the prices all prices are negotiable truman please email andrew cmu edu and tell all the clubs the area about this deal once they gone they gone cause not business
misc.forsale	mac for sale for sale mac with mouse and keyboard functions fine serial hard drive plugs into floppy port and gives make offers sig under construction send suggestions pledge netcom com
misc.forsale	for sale graphic equalizer for sale still audio source model eleven band stereo octave equalizer with specturm analyzer display digital readout left right controls over the spectrum great boost all kinds music signals broadcasts tapes cds makes even the weakest recording sound great purchased year ago asking includes original packaging manuals cables and warranty card email jburgin ralph haverford edu phone
misc.forsale	bps external modem have practical peripherals external modem for sale been used less than year and has lifetime warranty never had problem connecting any site something can say for the noname third tier modems original box and manuals firm includes shipping anywhere the continental ken ken jongsma smiths industries jongsma swdev com grand rapids michigan compuserve com
misc.forsale	marvel comics for sale these are comics want sell that are comic mutant related all prices are least off the overstreet price all are condition bagged and backed you don like these prices make offer title price alpha flight wolverine appears avengers appearance factor daredevil wolverine appears fantastic four art adams art wolverine fantastic four wolverine ghost rider appear fantastic four wolverinr ghost rider appear havok and wolverine meltdown epic comics marvel comics presents wolverine silver surfer wolverine master kungfu wolverine master kungfu wolverine master kungfu wolverine daredevil wolverine hulk wolverine submariner wolverine man thing man thing ant man man thing colossus black panther shanna black panther nomad ron lim art black panther ron lim art black panther rob liefeld art cyclops ron lim art black panther ron lim art black panther ron lim art black panther nth man havok blk panther black panther havok hulk black panther havok black panther havok black panther havok black panther havok erik larsen excalibur rob liefeld wolverine wolverine hulk jackson guice deathlok poison thor scarlet witch mark texiera ghost rider mark texiera ghost rider mark texiera ghost rider mark texiera ghost rider smith weapon smith weapon smith weapon smith weapon smith weapon dracula smith weapon smith weapon smith weapon smith weapon smith weapon keith art and jae lee ghost rider cable wolverine ghost rider wolverine ghost rider marvel fanfare men zar team deathlok app marvel team karma miller byrne men wolverine cover story new mutants intro new warlock magus rob liefeld cable rob liefeld cable rob liefeld sabretooth appears rob liefeld sabretooth appears rob liefeld wolverine cable rob liefeld wolverine cable app deadpool gideon domino app force annual evolutionary war annual liefeld art new mutants annual annual app force summer special art adams art power pack wolverine and sabretooth appear spider man mcfarlane liefeld art force appears thor mutant massacre factor sabretooth app wolverine before claws battle with sabretooth sabretooth claims wolverine dad sabretooth proven not his dad sabretooth wolverine saga concludes wolverine mini series miller art factor sabretooth appears sabretooth appears sabretooth appears tinction agenda jim lee cover whilce portacio art begins whilce portacio art last old team issue annual new warriors force appear force signed liefeld bagged force card signed liefeld bagged shatterstar card signed liefeld bagged deadpool card signed liefeld bagged sunspot gideon bagged cable card men fall the mutants inferno rob liefeld art jim lee art series begins jim lee art last jim lee art new men team printing all comics are near mint mint condition are bagged shiny polypropylene bags and backed with white acid free boards shipping for one book for more than one book free you order large enough amount stuff willing haggle have thousands and thousands other comics please let know what you been looking for and maybe can help some titles have posted here don list every issue have that title tried save space geoffrey mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
misc.forsale	self defense pepper spray for sale have few small cans self defense spray for sale asking for one can about the size pen marker and works pretty good hear thanks noel
misc.forsale	pioneer mulit play player for sale pioneer multi play player with disc magazine full function remote all the standard features including computer allocated program editing and time fade editing excellent shape year old asking hans meyer
misc.forsale	pioneer double cassette deck pioneer double cassette deck auto ble tuning deck syncro recording music search high speed dubbing other standard features less than one year old excellent condition firm hans meyer
misc.forsale	kenwood speakers kenwood watt floor standing speakers for sale less than one year old brand new shape hans meyer
misc.forsale	pioneer audio video receiver pioneer vsx audio video receiver dolby pro logic surround logic studio and simulated surround playback video signal selector simulcast function two way vcr copying and monitoring acoustic memory function custom memory function sleep timer multi room remote jack remote control unit less than one year old excellent shape firm hans meyer
misc.forsale	powerbook forsale posting for brother but please reply this account and will forward the messages the powerbook excellent shape five months old and was purchased abroad haven seen for details send mail asking price best offer conditions immediate sale prepayment
misc.forsale	toyota tercel good condition make offer have blue toyota corolla tercel for sale reason for seeling this great little car new celica car specifications toyota corolla tercel speed miles door blue air conditioning heat stereo well taken care off and maintained clean new battery timing belt and fan belt inspection sticker valid until tough car generally above miles make offer mail reddy ulysses att com phone work home kishore reddy include std disclaimer kishore reddy bell laboratories
misc.forsale	wanted airline certificate voucher willing pay reasonable amount for airline certificate voucher looking for certificate voucher that valid for round trip ticket coast coast anywhere transferrable name please reply mail phone anosh
misc.forsale	panasonic pin printer panasonic pin dot matrix printer cps dot diameter character lcd super quiet mode draft letter quality super letter quality fonts rear bottom front top paper feeding friction tractor color compatible needs optional color kit includes windows panasonic printer drivers disk bought jan and have used very little still has original ribbon cartridge this very nice printer and brand new conditio just dont use often enough and need money take for hans meyer
misc.forsale	aircraft for sale leasing article kerhuz rtools msk slavik rtools msk writes our firm position either sell lease the serverses one air cargo transport aircraft with the complete technical repair terms delivery the price the aircraft the price leasing per month with the guarantee flight time more than hours this price includes the price the aircraft the price insurance the aircraft and the pilots the price leasing does not include the fuel price the price technical service taxes airport taxes air navigations expenses the payments hangspace loading unloading and insurance cargo days payments for pilot food and accomodation expenses transport expenses terms are negotiable you are interested please contact your earliest convenients respectedly yours andrey divaev moscow tel fax rusian tools ltd calling bill gates calling bill gates jason settle down raise family join the pta buy some sensible shoes and chevrolet and party till you broke and they drag you away yankovic
misc.forsale	cpu chip for sale article mcshub dcss mcmaster maccs mcmaster holly writes article qoby utdallas edu goyal utdallas edu mohit goyal writes cpu chip for sale shipping you like pay for the chip you will get immediately otherwise will take the highest offer few days thanks please refer selling for that cpu correct may high now that amd has started selling clones you both dreaming that guy who selling ripping himself off and once those chips are gone while before you see that price again amd not clone still clone you want the genuine article then you pay for just because one guy decides sell ridiculously low price doesn tmean everyone else has kevin heay bud get life the real world you still play with your atari with the paddles geez man open your eyes the technoledgy today have been quoted price from local dealer friend mine that could get motherboard with cache with meg base ram for here some friendly advice your favorite book store walden book and pick computer shoppers guide you think that was good price wait till you see some the other goodies they sell james jeansonne aka the master
misc.forsale	hawaii tickets forsale hallo all girlfriend and will travelling across the this summer won using our tickets return hawaii please buy them the tickets are one way leaving peoria may connects the main route minneapolis paul and from there goes honolulu you honolulu and flying via northwest airlines any offers will considered but please make sure these are serious offers tickets hawaii aren cheap but aiming make two people very happy this summer madkiwi camelot bradley edu
misc.forsale	ftp tcp ver for sale cheap article pct rlg stanford edu pct rlg stanford edu peter tam writes from pct rlg stanford edu peter tam subject ftp tcp ver for sale cheap date sat apr gmt for sale ftp software inc tcp networking software for dos version with lan driver for cards others you can get from ftp itself serial numbers orignal diskettes tcp telnet ftp ping lpr finger etc copies cheap each vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv correction check the diskettes only contains the tcp kernel applications only good for people who needs run their own lan applications that uses ftp tcp kernel calls but mot the extra telnet ftp etc applications
misc.forsale	forsale microbotics hardframe scsi controller forsale one microbotics hardframe scsi controller for the make offer malcolm crosby internet mcrosby bsa kent edu mail emcamiga malcolm redpoll mrfs mail please
misc.forsale	wanted for polaroid palette manual newsgroups misc wanted misc forsale misc forsale computers subject wanted manual polaroid palette distribution world organization clemson university clemson need the polaroid palette model similar model manual willing pay for plus the shipping charge via usps class don need the original one photo copyed manual will just fine for you have the manual please help out thanks advance eric newsgroups misc forsale misc wanted misc forsale computers subject wanted for polaroid palette manual summary distribution world organization clemson university clemson keywords
misc.forsale	cheap harddisks for your faithful have few the original ibm harddisks for sale they are actually seagate mfm full height has the ibm logo and black face plate each disk checked and formatted with dos can doubled with dblspace stacker you desire have the original ibm foam fitted boxies and anti static bags not sure they were ever used but each drive that sent out will quarenteed good working order each plus shipping cost about you have one those old ibm pcs this for you cheaper than floppy drive
misc.forsale	for sale monochrome monitor motherboard disk drive for sale trade some combination for motherboard bis monochrome monitor pretty generic for ibm motherboard mhz built monochrome and color support built serial and parallel ports stick robot use make cheap terminal whatever internal low density disk drive baud external modem practical peripherals make offer suggest trade for whatever you have libertarian atheist semi anarchal techno rat define myself tsa cellar org
misc.forsale	for sale you paid for you fool and you got ripped off
misc.forsale	wanted sega glasses badly need pair sega glasses for cheap setup you have set and want part with can arrange shipping etc and duty necessary leave mail davecru ersys edmonton call ask for dave cruickshank davecru ersys edmonton
misc.forsale	looking for mike damico recently purchased ibm monochrome vga monitor from mike damico the monitor arrived but was missing power cable mike address apparently not proper address because mail can reach anyone knows how contact mike and could help find him would appreciate sure just set aside the power cord was packing the monitor but would lot more useful had the cord well traci collins professor computer education colorado mountain college tcollins bridget newcastle
misc.forsale	psychics look into the future discover what lies ahead love health and finance speak live with psychic your choice extension you must over call calls cost per minute after introduction
misc.forsale	books for sale just make offer someone please buy these books not asking much just make offer and will probably take writing good software fortran graham smith the holt handbook kirszner mandell copyright page writing guide general chemistry principles modern applications petrucci fourth edition big book very good condition solutions manual for chemistry book paperback study guide for chemistry book paperback send your offers via email chopin udel edu sam chopin udel edu
misc.forsale	honda accord for sale honda accord for sale steel grey honda accord miles speed manual gives around mpg brand new clutch installed last month original owner cassette doesn work cruise control runs great reason for selling recently purchased new car call raj ext days evenings email sunil eng sun com
misc.forsale	usrobotics courier hst for sale robotics courier hst modem external volume control led display power switch cps compressed file transfers higher for uncompressed files all manuals and original packaging this modem ussually costs around error control bis data conpression mnp class error free throughput bps special price for you only please inquire with any questions email jmcneill sdcc ucsd edu call voice james mcneill
misc.forsale	time line for windows for sale time line for windows symantec never opened still wrap retails for asking send mail interested jonathan internet cleveland freenet edu jonathan evans commlink wariat org
misc.forsale	stereo system for sale ken
misc.forsale	looking for technics you would like sell your technics receiver know someone who would like sell please contact willing pay any reasonable price thanx davor dmatic athena mit edu
misc.forsale	for sale altos unix machine have altos system unix system for sale actually have two but one for several years ago these well known machines sold for for the base configuration this particular one has much more than the base configuration depending what you want mhz cpu meg ram fifteen serial ports more you want multidrop port for more serial ports ethernet floppy drive qic cartridge tape drive meg esdi hard drive either micropolis cdc both you want unix system installation networking software package tcp development system software package compiler and libraries asking only firm for the system you want another ethernet serial card add additional disks are each can install total three esdi drives would consider trade for scsi dat tape drive this box would make great bbs system terminal server was originally designed service active users and moderately active users this not was designed unix box from the start and very fast and exceptionally reliable dimensions are approximately high tower wide and deep only interested dealing with someone local enough come pick shipping way too much hassle call you wish send email steve scherf home work steve moonsoft com scherf swdc stratus com newsgroups market misc market computers misc forsale misc forsale computers misc forsale computers other subject for sale altos unix machine summary expires references distribution organization moondog software sunnyvale keywords have altos system unix system for sale actually have two but one for several years ago these well known machines sold for for the base configuration this particular one has much more than the base configuration depending what you want mhz cpu meg ram fifteen serial ports more you want multidrop port for more serial ports ethernet floppy drive qic cartridge tape drive meg esdi hard drive either micropolis cdc both you want unix system installation networking software package tcp development system software package compiler and libraries asking only firm for the system you want another ethernet serial card add additional disks are each can install total three esdi drives would consider trade for scsi dat tape drive this box would make great bbs system terminal server was originally designed service active users and moderately active users this not was designed unix box from the start and very fast and exceptionally reliable dimensions are approximately high tower wide and deep only interested dealing with someone local enough come pick shipping way too much hassle call you wish send email steve scherf home work steve moonsoft com scherf swdc stratus com newsgroups market misc market computers misc forsale misc forsale computers misc forsale computers other subject for sale altos unix machine organization moondog software sunnyvale have altos system unix system for sale actually have two but one for several years ago these well known machines sold for for the base configuration this particular one has much more than the base configuration depending what you want mhz cpu meg ram fifteen serial ports more you want multidrop port for more serial ports ethernet floppy drive qic cartridge tape drive meg esdi hard drive either micropolis cdc both you want unix system installation networking software package tcp development system software package compiler and libraries asking only firm for the system you want another ethernet serial card add additional disks are each can install total three esdi drives would consider trade for scsi dat tape drive this box would make great bbs system terminal server was originally designed service active users and moderately active users this not was designed unix box from the start and very fast and exceptionally reliable dimensions are approximately high tower wide and deep only interested dealing with someone local enough come pick shipping way too much hassle call you wish send email steve scherf home work steve moonsoft com scherf swdc stratus com newsgroups market misc market computers misc forsale misc forsale computers misc forsale computers other subject for sale altos unix machine summary expires references sender followup distribution organization moondog software sunnyvale keywords have altos system unix system for sale actually have two but one for several years ago these well known machines sold for for the base configuration this particular one has much more than the base configuration depending what you want mhz cpu meg ram fifteen serial ports more you want multidrop port for more serial ports ethernet floppy drive qic cartridge tape drive meg esdi hard drive either micropolis cdc both you want unix system installation networking software package tcp development system software package compiler and libraries asking only firm for the system you want another ethernet serial card add additional disks are each can install total three esdi drives would consider trade for scsi dat tape drive this box would make great bbs system terminal server was originally designed service active users and moderately active users this not was designed unix box from the start and very fast and exceptionally reliable dimensions are approximately high tower wide and deep only interested dealing with someone local enough come pick shipping way too much hassle call you wish send email steve scherf home work steve moonsoft com scherf swdc stratus com newsgroups market misc market computers misc forsale misc forsale computers misc forsale computers other subject for sale altos unix machine organization moondog software sunnyvale have altos system unix system for sale actually have two but one for several years ago these well known machines sold for for the base configuration this particular one has much more than the base configuration depending what you want mhz cpu meg ram fifteen serial ports more you want multidrop port for more serial ports ethernet floppy drive qic cartridge tape drive meg esdi hard drive either micropolis cdc both you want unix system installation networking software package tcp development system software package compiler and libraries asking only firm for the system you want another ethernet serial card add additional disks are each can install total three esdi drives would consider trade for scsi dat tape drive this box would make great bbs system terminal server was originally designed service active users and moderately active users this not was designed unix box from the start and very fast and exceptionally reliable dimensions are approximately high tower wide and deep only interested dealing with someone local enough come pick shipping way too much hassle call you wish send email steve scherf home work steve moonsoft com scherf swdc stratus com newsgroups market misc market computers misc forsale misc forsale computers misc forsale computers other subject for sale altos unix machine summary expires references sender followup distribution organization moondog software sunnyvale keywords have altos system unix system for sale actually have two but one for several years ago these well known machines sold for for the base configuration this particular one has much more than the base configuration depending what you want mhz cpu meg ram fifteen serial ports more you want multidrop port for more serial ports ethernet floppy drive qic cartridge tape drive meg esdi hard drive either micropolis cdc both you want unix system installation networking software package tcp development system software package compiler and libraries asking only firm for the system you want another ethernet serial card add additional disks are each can install total three esdi drives would consider trade for scsi dat tape drive this box would make great bbs system terminal server was originally designed service active users and moderately active users this not was designed unix box from the start and very fast and exceptionally reliable dimensions are approximately high tower wide and deep only interested dealing with someone local enough come pick shipping way too much hassle call you wish send email steve scherf home work steve moonsoft com scherf swdc stratus com steve scherf ceo moondog software steve zeppelin moonsoft com
misc.forsale	wanted for seagate have seagate hard drive that need some info specific information anyone have the for seagate technology inc they have bbs setup that has all the drive info like maxtor does take that thanks apple forever bucks play lacrosse raging bullwinkle shane zatezalo cis osu net szatezal magnus acs ohio state edu root tap colum fnet org nextmail shane kiwi swhs ohio state edu call futurenet bbs hst megs
misc.forsale	nikkor forsale price reduced asking only
misc.forsale	unix unix unix unix unix unix unix unix forsale esix unix system release new user license system unlimited user license system user license system with dev kit unlimited user license system with dev kit the above systems include all the floppies tapes and instalation manuals they are new and have never been installed before market value for the above systems about you are interested please contact canada remote systems toronto ontario
misc.forsale	physically sound records sale trade barter still have about records left hand all pristine condition except where noted quite few out print and more than few imports the bunch rather than selling the majority for each looking barter packages for stuff that you might selling over usenet also trade for other records very good condition that you replaced with well pre recorded videos beta vhs the past been able make deals based the equivalent list store price movie beta format get around what you might have originally paid can even remember this time looking for set working nicad rechargable batteries you have some lying around and they sound rsvp you curious rsvp for list and you see anything that you like send back proposal for record package and copy your for the stuff you selling thanks gld the imports and out prints are also valued used once got baud external modem for records list anybody got nice unused blender for making frozen margaritas there have been additions since the last posting february the list has only shrunk made few deals since souviens gary dare gld columbia edu winnipeg jets gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
misc.forsale	wanted playboy campus girls issues looking buy the annual playboy magazine issue featuring girls from colleges around the specificly want issues from and one these features girl went high school with curious see how turned out all help appreciated
misc.forsale	panasonic palmcorder would like sell camcorder havent used much and need the money panasonic vhs palmcorder high speed shutter flying erasr head power zoom digital autp tracking audio video dubbing auto tracking digital automatic focus book mark search record review automatic white balance ccd image sensor system includes rechargeable battery battery charger vhs playpak adapter compact video cassettes all original docs cables box etc got new sept and used total about times the battery has been charged less than times this thing brand new condition asking make offer hans meyer
misc.forsale	player floppy floppy car stuff lots please read immediate sale greetings netters have the following items for immediate sale need the money and you need the stuff can work out deal sharp single disk player originally paid oodles but that was couple years ago works well has all the standards remote sensor remote not included track pragrammable memory etc got new one and need sell this one please email offer the standard black component style player meg floppy drive real ibm floppy drive with cable and mounting case paid couple months ago the drive works last time would like get the back for but obo applies floppy drive sure someone out there needs extra works great and nice and quiet again please email offer remote control car time world leader design was just overhauled runs great even though the body not all that pretty has new engine well racing pinion the chassis nicked from hard running but still great car does not include electronics comes with monster truck conversion kit wheel arms already installed virgin truck body and bumper etc car kit obo make offer stuff you name probably have please send email regarding what you want request for sale list hate part with any but needs are needs misc alice chains facelift skid row self titled both obo really box computer printer paper paid for make offer might have meg simms forsale get new motherboard you interested the price piece sold set thanks advance please respond soon conveniently possible dave kari sage purdue edu
misc.forsale	mac modem wanted would like buy cheap modem for mac did mention that would prefer cheap baud preferred but when you looking for cheap and mean cheap beggars can choosers mail seattle you were also that would bonus
misc.forsale	intel cpu shipping forsale intel cpu price must sell immediately andie wei lin awlin eagle wesleyan edu
misc.forsale	repost tape drives for sale article apr dmc com munroe dmc com dick munroe writes acorn software inc has tape drives currently used vms system for sale these are all scsi tape drives and are working condition wangdat wangdat compression exabyte sale pending plus shipping and cod certified checks only please these units are sold and without warrantee contact you interested dick munroe internet munroe dmc com doyle munroe consultants inc uucp uunet thehulk munroe cox office hudson fax get connected send mail info dmc com find out about dmconnection
misc.forsale	chicago suburbs cheap car for sale toyota corolla hatchback runs needs dents smoothed serious brake work and miscellaneous tlc excellent auto shop project obo see algonquin schaumburg email johnson behind every absurdity there lies basic truth johnson wes mot com behind every basic truth there lies absurdity
misc.forsale	for sale hit movies vhs have the following prerecorded vhs tapes for sale all are great shape and are being sold since have replaced all them with laserdiscs star wars the empire strikes back return the jedi batman indiana jones and the temple doom indiana jones and the last crusade you are interested any these titles please mail offer
misc.forsale	last chance playboy magazines roommate left his playboy collection which longer wants offering them the general public that you make offer for the entire collection the current best offer shipping will accept the best offer offer does not include cheapest method shipping from bethlehem february supermodel rachel williams world tour pom tanya beyer may shannon tracy tweed pom carrie jean yazel july tall girls miss bulgaria pom wendy kaye september barbi twins pom samantha dorman november toya jackson pom tonja marie christensen december dian parkinson from the price right pom wendy hamilton july sharon stone marilyn look alike pom jacqueline sheen october girls the big west gladiator marisa pare pom brittany york november teri copley from got made sex cinema pom lorraine olivia stewardess january anniversary issue collector edition february year sex rio grand pom simone eden march toya jackson pom laurie wood august women wall diana lee from license kill pom gianna amore november donna mills sex cinema pom renee tenison august sunshine girls pom helle michaelsen october girls the southwest conference pom shannon long november women washington sex cinema pom pia reyes december playmate review sex stars lysette anthony pom kata karkkainen november jessica hahn sex cinema pom pam stein also special edition playboy presents beautiful women bsme mba looking for job hiring mail jwg lehigh edu take walk the wild side biffman lehigh university bethlehem usa
misc.forsale	forsale wedding dress size for size wedding dress with lots beads inquire mst utah paid asking
misc.forsale	wanted sips wanted sips you have any please tell how much you want includding shipping
misc.forsale	intel chmos design kit have this kit which includes the following chmos clock generator and driver for processors chmos erasable prom low power chmos dynamic ram chmos programmable interrupt controller chmos bus controller fro processors bit chmos microprocessor chmos programmable peripheral interface chmos programmable interval timer chmos dynamic ram controller all these are chips with complete manual box don know whether they still work not and don really know what they are this mainly for those who knows what this and have use probably stuff since this used belong student anyone interested please make offer jonina
misc.forsale	looking for diffraction grating glasses quantity yeah that about sums looking for place that sells diffraction grating goggles quantity thanks
misc.forsale	plotters for sale new plotters straight out the box but docs have all been lost make offer cod shipping mik uky edu
misc.forsale	western digital hard drive for sale wester digital caviar internal hard drive half height ide years old great shape closest offer mike davi saturn rowan edu
misc.forsale	wanted portable color seems the fortunate position desire what many people want sell miniature color require color and input for cable vcr would prefer inch diagonal and tube television not lcd get paid the first make offer email marc
misc.forsale	for sale complete system have the following system for sale mhz dtk motherboard intel microprocessor external cache megs ram meg harddrive ide controller meg floppy drive meg floppy drive serial ports parallel port samsung vga monitor svga graphics card tseng labs meg awesome card key keyboard baud internal modem software dos procomm plus ver norton utilities ver other various utilities upgrading and need sell the system reliable and ready never had any problems with asking you interested please respond either mail phone tae zeus tamu edu thanks andrew
misc.forsale	sony camcorder for sony ccd camcorder originally bought for now only original box all accesories andrew cmu edu
misc.forsale	sun sparkstation laptop sun sparkstation laptop workstation for best offer ram expandable hard drive floppy drive open windows lcd display scsi mouse adaptor manuals carring case posted for friend please contact him directly please call leonid
misc.forsale	for sale article apr leland stanford edu ryner leland stanford edu ryan tamm writes you paid for you fool and you got ripped off please tell where can get the wergo music label for less than foolishly john davison davisonj ecn purdue edu
misc.forsale	meg seagate ide hard drive 
misc.forsale	apple clone for sale plus extras please take this system off hands longer use and taking valuable room they system consists microcom pdos apple clone with board and pdos installed comes with load boards including disk drive board boards board column board couple printer boards including the grappler has height drives and cooling fan attachement the keyboard the extended variety with builting keywords and keypad all for brett maraldo plexus productions unit research alien technology today bmaraldo watserv uwaterloo uunet clyde utai watserv bmaraldo
misc.forsale	triumph spitfire convertible triumph spitfire convertible original miles burgandy color wooden dashboard rust garage kept heater chrome bumpers not the black plastic crap brand new top asking negotiable mechanically the car very good shape and running very very strong you know what mean plenty catalogs and manuals are coming with the car you are interested the car please reply this message not interested willing sell any parts the car very good condition strip george georged astro ocis temple edu
misc.forsale	headphones akg for sale have pair akg nearly new condition for sale they have been used studio for mixdown monitoring have the original box the use both electret element and dynamic element each ear cup with built crossovers they have very smooth frequency response and the electrostatic element gives clearer highs asking for the pair brett maraldo plexus prodcutions unit research alien technology today bmaraldo watserv uwaterloo uunet clyde utai watserv bmaraldo
misc.forsale	record singles for sale selling bunch older records off they are sitting around collecting dust and never use them have used each these records once maybe twice didn record the song wanted correctly the first time these records are perfect condition please email with the records you would want and what you think fair price will probably give deals the more records you buy kinda capatalist isn well give yell pagorm iastate edu with any comments see paul have recieved few questions what are guess should elaborate that old they are just maxi singles wax correct most beat mixers still use this form record this probably the kind person interested this colllect parts any questions call thanks and see artist song soul soul get life back life back life mob put your hands together rhythm from within mon get lovin janet jackson rhythm nation black cat milli vanilli blame the rain girl gonna miss you maxi priest close you know love quincy jones good you inxs suicide blonde body wants tonight babyface kinda girl hammer turn this mutha out ring madonna keep together vogue lisa stansfield this the right time all around the world affection stevie love emotion depeche mode personal jesus dangerous policy truth kaleid enjoy the silence mephisto england neworder world motion snap ooops believe the hype the power kyper tic tac toe rebel street tuff rob base turn out lee get busy monie love grandpa party drive you crazy the time jerk out black box everybody everybody bbd johnny gill rub you the right way roam bushfire redhead kingpin the right thing digital underground humpty dance technotronic this beat technotronic pump the jam tough jane child don wanna fall love world lullabye young come off bust move got more rhymes room wiggle glenn medeiros she ain worth
misc.forsale	wanted summer sublet wanted summer sublet red metro line have own bedroom but can share common areas with others apartment room for less move memorial day weekend through end august smokers email prinaoa yalevm rfp jhuvm
misc.forsale	complete aix software and manuals best offer repost friend mine has complete set aix software and manuals for sale new all meg floppies including base development tools including compiler administration extensions windows motif tcp simulator dos merge etc etc this software requires with processor higher ample disk space and memory can coexist with dos and the same machine and selectively booted startup you are interested email your offer and will pass along keep mind that the manuals and software fill box shipping consideration please include this message for reference alavi ssa unity ncsu edu
misc.forsale	unix sysv software for sale best offer repost here your chance have full unix system small cost have full set unix system for the for sale version the latest far know and includes all the software meg floppies and manuals for base development tools compilers etc dos merge simultask etc beleive the software requires and will not work any other machine also have few and manuals including the system programmers guide anyone interested drop line with your offer you are interested please include this message for reference alavi ssa unity ncsu edu
misc.forsale	wanted roller blades looking for pair inline skates aka roller blades new used for less than including shipping size strider suny buffalo psr acsu buffalo edu lord mayor the hill people mhsk ubvms bitnet son able she said though you scare watch said beloved strider suny buffalo psr acsu buffalo edu lord mayor the hill people mhsk ubvms bitnet son able she said though you scare watch said beloved
misc.forsale	items for sale must sell items for sale this package was bought throught award give away company attempted cancel order before received the package but was too late and the company refused take the package back for refund know the truth which would never get back but wish get money back close possible here the describtion the package nishika camera takes very good picture never been opended used came with wide angle flesh carring case film and instruction video has four lens and created effect regular film jewelry came with the package additional gift bahama vacation voucher the voucher good for two airfare freeport the users get special hotel rate per person per night meals ground transfer hotel tax not included las vegas reno orlando the voucher provides one airfare and hotel accomodation for days nights meals ground transfer hotel tax not included the voucher good for all locations but you can travel all places once cancun mexico the voucher provides one airfare and hotel accomodation for days nights meals and ground transfer hotel tax not included usual paid for the whole package try not cold blooded when you make your offer details would provided request wish sell the whole package once you are just looking for the vacation vouchers don care you sell the camera other for higher pric you are interested the camera you could treat the vacation vouchers gift you receive letter your mail box which says that you are selected part the sweeptake and you have least one out five awards trust you would get the exactly the same package did there only one award which will given away don bother even call them back you are really interested you could get from for cheaper price and you could receive the package within week waited three months get first and final packages also they would ask for your credit card number and you have pay for the interest the credit card company why spend more than you should when you could get them from for cheaper price you are interested please reply soon posible really wish get this over with make offer confortable with your offer would send the package the next day morning more details could given you wish please contact koutd hirama hiram edu douglas kou hiram college mail address koutd hirama hiram edu
misc.forsale	for sale for sale trident meg video card colors dollars best offer mail dcassen mcs umr edu
misc.forsale	repost tape drives for sale acorn software inc has tape drives currently used vms system for sale these are all scsi tape drives and are working condition wangdat wangdat compression sale pending exabyte sale pending plus shipping and cod certified checks only please these units are sold and without warrantee contact you interested dick munroe internet munroe dmc com doyle munroe consultants inc uucp uunet thehulk munroe cox office hudson fax get connected send mail info dmc com find out about dmconnection
misc.forsale	loaded apple system for sale apple system for sale apple enhanced cpu motherboard apple extended column card expands memory total floppy drives apple disk with apple controller card floppy drive apple unidisk with apple controller card apple monochrome monitor apple super serial cards baud external modem original documentation for all the above prodos dos system software talk cheap communications software original docs isys forth original docs fig forth original docs super sunday footbal game original docs tsushima game original docs books systems programming apple graphics and arcade game design apple machine language for beginners all for shipping probably more you have any questions please mail reasonable offers will considered keith frederick happiness our moral purpose you see manchu kill him scalawag carson washington edu reason our only absolute not number free man cis uwid the road cornell
misc.forsale	tandy word processor for sale have tandy wordprocessor for sale has due due ram disk word processing program word spell checker thesaurus thin and weighs lbs takes batteries alkaline cad rechargable uses adapter cluded full size qwerty keyboard with character line lcd screen also has telcom program which allows transfers files ibmpc with null modem cable and shareware transfer program also included has pin serial port parallel printer port and tape recorder file save port the telcom program can also with modem not included access services like compuserve this great unit for high school college student write papers and reports comes with the original manual you get all the above for plus shipping and cod charges send mail inquiries gilbert gall internet guf psuvm psu edu penn state university old botany bldg phone office university park
misc.forsale	sony watchman sony watchman sony inch excellent condition has not been used much all thus why selling gets great reception sells new for asking small enough that you can carry around anywhere please mail jbell eecom gatech edu john bell georgia institute technology school electrical engineering atlanta mail jbell eecom gatech edu
misc.forsale	word perfect offer word perfect for the mac have brand new copy word perfect the latest release has not been used and still shrink wrap student version not upgradable newer version sells for would like get for please mail jbell eecom gatech edu john bell georgia institute technology school electrical engineering atlanta mail jbell eecom gatech edu
misc.forsale	wanted transformers the toys hey collection interested buying any good condition particularly interested any the older exotic models five transformers into one etc looking paying around depending upon the model size and original cost etc will also pay airmail postage and packing also happy buy any old sci related toys robots rocketships micronauts etc there only one catch live new zealand you have willing post the items there hop that someone can help out cheers darren
misc.forsale	house for sale sandwich for sale owners who were also the builders contemporary cape house located sandwich three bedrooms two baths one car oversized garage large eat kitchen cathedral ceiling from back living room deck off kitchen and dining room living space full walk out basement creative financing possibility contact peg moore ron nordstrom
misc.forsale	dayna etherprint adapters have two brand new dayna etherprint adapters baset for sale they convert ethertalk localtalk this useful when wanting hook localtalk network printer ethertalk baset network they sell for each mac warehouse will take each guaranteed email response atg virginia edu todd gibson
misc.forsale	turbo grafx games for sale base unit controller all cables and hookups games kieth courage legenary axe fantasy zone victory run wrestling challenge blazing lasers military madness bloody wolf asking for all the above will ship cod call mike day eve
misc.forsale	coleco unit games for sale selling coleco base unit with controllers atari game adapter play atari games games pac man smurfs etc will ship cod price make offer call cheryl day eve
misc.forsale	electronic components etc said cipher tape drives what silly boy was now have zillions messages like does that include shipping scsi what rom version will work maximegalon gargantuabrain the deal this you live the twin cities email and set time sure you can drop round and grab one for tenner else min order drives shipping guarantees they are good for any purpose all they look newish clean technical negotiations they are model floppytape part revision pin floppy style connector the back else they the bin life too short for extended negotiations over items cheers mike
misc.forsale	airline ticket for sale airline ticket ata cincinnati have friend who has one ticket from atlanta cin one seat economy class delta the ticket the return half round trip currently woman name she does not need fly back need sell the ticket flyer would standby because ticket dated asking posting this for friend please not email responses instead contact rick michael davis smith georgia institute technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism internet prism gatech edu
misc.forsale	computer equipment garage sale computer equipment garage sale finally decided clean out closets and get rid some the stuff that broken not being used put together list and indicated what think each item worth this just estimate and very open any offers including trades currently looking for some roms that will work with mac rom player caddies floppy disks any used macintosh software mhz processor basically anything you have lying around cans soup the neighbor cat etc make offer offer will overlooked really want get rid this stuff here the list meg scsi hard drive conner model bought this from guy swap meet use with macintosh unfortunately can seem get work with the scsi controller computer the guy tested with his and printed out copy the norton disk doctor report which says has bad sectors send you copy was dumb enough not get his phone number can return him the drive has many jumpers which don know how set maybe that the problem was quite disappointed that didn work trying minimize losses meg scsi hard drive conner model same situation above bought both these drives from the same guy despite the different model numbers they are the same exact drive same report from ndd have one for each drive will included meg sony scsi hard drive sony model srd the drive mechanism completely trashed this hard drive was computer mac and had stiction problem well repeated banging the side the computer resulted head crash yes metal scraping metal which was not too pleasant listen still the scsi controller card good working order and can used for parts project meg seagate scsi hard drive model originally bought this drive because had small stiction problem and though that could fix well determined that the drive mechanism was fine and that was controller problem motor controller wasn sending proper signals well after taking the controller off the drive looking and putting back together realized that accidentally severed one the small flat cables that connect the drive the controller tried solder but not that good soldering couldn worked perfectly before messed used temporary drive when the sony above crashed also loaded the drive with about twenty mac applications worth well over claris cad word think excel and many others think all needs resoldering that cable you also get all the software the drive you can accept being pirate only ask that you delete data files from the drive was really angry when broke that connection and then couldn fix just don have time play with any more isdn modem this for use digital phone systems you know what this would like technical information let know have some tech documents supposed the same thing digital phone but without the phone part seems working order passes self test perfectly have idea how this worth let know you interested motorola coprocessor haven tested this one out yet but anyone interested will get tested out make sure that works had trouble using with accelerator board but then spoke the manufacturer the board and found out couldn used without another controller chip when was looking around buy one new the prices were around will guarantee this work cga card half length bit wasn working last time checked although think was using bad monitor floppy drive ibm drive type guaranteed work because when took out the was working floppy drive toshiba model number guaranteed work came out same above floppy drives can guarantee that these will work don even know they are low high density drives don have any method testing them panasonic model number acg there another number panasonic model number agg there also another number toshiba model number virtually identical the one above each drive drive these things are proprietary can test but think works not sure high density low density but suppose someone who looking for one would know model number dfl think these things are expensive replace mfm hard drive controller cards got three these and have way testing them two them are bit cards and one sixteen bit card with floppy controller built for the bits for the bit card floppy interesting cable seems convert from vga plug ega plug that standard nine pin vga pin made hewlett packard part sold stuff like this before and was huge success with many satisfied people trading bartering stuff they didn need anymore usually ship through the postal service haven had any problems yet and the shipping costs will split negotiated well that all folks said before offer will refused you can convince give ocit you instead throwing out try hate throw away stuff wayne wdempsey athena mit edu
misc.forsale	vhs movie for sale article apr cabell vcu edu his rrb cabell vcu edu robert bower writes didn mcdonald sell copies dances with wovies for not too long ago they were also selling babes toyland the scott baio version and something even more forgettable just think video drive thru take mcrib mcchicken and copy debbie does mcdallas you want fries and napkins with that this makes perfect sense you think about cheap food and cheap movies the cheapest format you feel full but the nutritional quality just ain there feast little buy beta bob his rrb caball vcu edu after this post really going start studying really greg beta simply the best beta simply the best consumer videotape format available video magazine nov page manufacturers may have point when they perceive the consumer electronics market unsophisticated videomaker march page
misc.forsale	vhs movies must sell because moving those vhs movies have sold because moving weeks and have idea what happend those people who made the deal with before here trying post another message againt don mean waste your valuable time basic instinct born the forth july backdraft presumed innocent the prince tides dance wolves all the prices are including shipping you get all them for package deals are very welcome make offer douglas kou hiram college koutd hirama hiram edu
misc.forsale	jeff mason auction marvel valiant image etc the following comics are for auction the highest bid takes them new stuff added cyberrad marvel presents spiderman special etc title minimum current alpha flight jim lee first work marvel aliens app aliens comics prnt may krism sold amazing spider man intro new green goblin amazing spider man appearance hobgoblin archer and armstrong frank miller smith layton avengers appearance factor bloodshot chromium cover bwsmith cover poster same twice cyberrad reintro cyberrad prestige silver edition daredevil frank miller art begins dark horse presents app concrete printing detective azrael appears intro cypher detective azrael appears harbinger appearance corps matthey sold corps incredible hulk app grey hulk since incredible hulk mcfarlane issue incredible hulk grey hulk series begins incredible hulk dale keown art hulk incredible hulk all new hulk prnt keown marvel comics presents wolverine silver surfer marvel presents charleston chew giveaway sam keith maxx limited ashcan copies exist blue cover brentb sold signed advance copy exist new mutants mcfarlane cover app cable cameo new mutants app force new mutants annual liefeld art new mutants omega men appearance lobo omega men full lobo story power man iron fist appearance sabretooth power man iron fist appearance sabretooth simpsons comics and stories polybagged special spectacular spider man app new hobgoblin spider man special unicef giveaway venom star trek the next generation feb mini star trek the next generation oct comics trianglehead special limited edition autographed web spider man hobgoblin wolverine appear web spider man origin rose hobgoblin appears wolverine before claws battle with sabretooth wolverine sabretooth claims wolverine dad wolverine sabretooth proven not his dad wolverine sabretooth wolverine saga concludes wolverine mini series miller art wonder woman return animal man force signed liefeld bagged force card force signed liefeld bagged shatterstar card force signed liefeld bagged deadpool card force signed liefeld bagged sunspot gideon all comics are near mint mint condition are bagged shiny polypropylene bags and backed with white acid free boards shipping for one book for more than one book free you order large enough amount stuff willing haggle have thousands and thousands other comics please let know what you been looking for and maybe can help some titles have posted here don list every issue have that title tried save space geoffrey mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
misc.forsale	items forsale items for sale will take offers for the following items reserve the right refuse any offers howard miller clock chimes like grandfather clock painting tiger the snow beautiful painting the tiger looks like can jump off the canvas and get you mens diamond ring size rows diamonds gold call email donald walker
misc.forsale	adaptec scsi controller selling adaptec scsi controller card works with microchannel machines only the data transfer rate very fast get about meg sec with scsi hard drive and that with relatively slow ram card scsi true bus mastering dma device and goes for around bought new including the new scsi software for speedy win performance and easy configuration selling for and pay the cod shipping please email directly and either give your phone with your offer respond with mine hope can both benefit from the sale this microchannel device great product
misc.forsale	min talaris laser printer sale talaris lazer printer min have lazer printer from talaris that suppose printer min have never set use because did not expect any bigger than lazerjet iip but wrong was purshase used when company liquidated will sale for shipping reply interested obo email felicia csd csd uwm edu phone leave message
misc.forsale	and misc books and ultrix manual for sale time clean shelf all price include shipping you don have worry about just pay the amount you see name cover publisher year origin now the ultimate dos heavy programmer manual hard windcrest bit mapped graphics hard windcrest algorithms hard addison wesley file structure hard addison wesley programming with data structure pascal version soft prentice hall digital design hard wiley numerical analysis hard pws kent disk batch files soft mcgraw hill advanced batch disk file programming soft mcgraw hill computer graphics principle and heavy practice hard addison wesley structure and interpreter computer program hard macgraw hill advanced introduction hard bell tele lab building library soft windcrest window system lib and protocol reference soft digital press pascal soft norton differential equation hard pws kent applied discrete structure for computer science hard macmillan programming soft prentice hall using wordperfect soft houghton free with purchase linear algebra hard addison wesley dec station disks dos binders and basic box digital the big gray book the next step with ultrix ultrix sql net user guide database adminstrator guide reference manual error message dictionary operation guide guide diskless management services guide server setup guide remote installation service guide bind hesiod service guide the network file system guide ethernet communication servers introduction networking and distributed system service guide the yellow page service guide backup and restore guide shutdown and startup guide disk maintenance guide kerberos gudie the uucp utility guide ibm terminal emulation for vax processors guide configuration file maintenance guide scamp guide printer clients guide adminstrator security guide the location broker guide system and network setup guide system environment setup guide software licensing guide system exercise guide error logger guide system crash recovery guide the nawk utility security guide for the users kernal message reference manual reference page section special files file formats macro package and conventions asking for obo pretty heavy though please mail you feel interested thank you
misc.forsale	only wanted vectrex game system only title says all after vectrex system you have one and want get rid let know can offer cash possible trades with megadrive and snes games cheers marc the net one can hear you scream email marc comp lancs marc computing lancaster
misc.forsale	wanted technics turntables simple rather get used than new must guarantee
misc.forsale	furniture need nice furnishings for your apartment house have glass topped wood sides and chrome edging coffee and end tables for sale the coffee tables are approximately five feet length and two feet wide the end tables are all the glass clear scratches first takes all thanks for reading art art lekoff internet art icdi compu com lisa turn compu erve compuserve com bensalem bell
misc.forsale	snowboard burton air snowboard multiflex bindings triple strap back binding board bag and leash included recently toned and waxed firm albnyvms bitnet
misc.forsale	meg simms for sale hello have simms for sale they are megabyte each and are the chip variety these are very high quality simms and are nearly brand new best all they are nanoseconds the fastest available please make offer prefer sell all four simms the same person lessen shipping costs but you just want one two please make offer anyway thanks lot bitzm columbia dsu edu mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet sdnet bitnet
misc.forsale	for sale article apr ecn purdue edu davisonj ecn purdue edu john davison writes article apr leland stanford edu ryner leland stanford edu ryan tamm writes you paid for you fool and you got ripped off please tell where can get the wergo music label for less than foolishly john davison davisonj ecn purdue edu what special about this label that their discs are going for upwards more than most retail outlets average prices for cds mark
misc.forsale	nintendo system super mario shipping obo 
misc.forsale	jet ski forsale for sale kawasaki tandum seating color white with blue and red jet ski runs great and looks good ziemans trailer with locking utility box color black ziemans trailer less than year old both have been garaged kept and well maintained for both sold set only interested call leave message will return your call asap thanks tim ryan standard disclaimer applies
misc.forsale	tenor saxophone for sale selmer mark vii tenor saxophone used for college jazz band performances will include copy the new real book whick collection jazz classics and various other standards paid for other extras included asking can discuss shipping and cod charges send some mail call home school davis longs lance colostate edu
misc.forsale	harsh environments was nikonos etc etc article apr leland stanford edu brett glass glass leland stanford edu writes this posting reminded about long standing question had does pay consider underwater camera for pictures taken land but harsh environments rain snow heat cold mud dust are the lenses etc all tuned for the refractive index water have had nikon since unfortunately longer made sealed resist water depth feet not really underwater camera but has been great wet and dusty conditions takes batteries hooray has the solid heavy feel old style nikons and has taken all the abuse have been able give this includes lot water rain river and sea desert and beach sand well being used weapon against mugger shouting and swinging the camera the strap didn scare the mugger away hitting him with the flying camera did this never without camera camera the current water resistant sport touch think the name model nothing like solid well sealed don mackie his opinions
misc.forsale	video tapes for sale adult have the following playboy videos for sale email interested all are original tapes course original boxes video playmate calendar wet wild sexy lingerie sexy lingerie iii prices are each for for all for also have bunch magazines playboy penthouse hustler chic club and more email interested those too willing sell all part collection cheaply justin jslauson magnus acs ohio state edu builders built buildings like write programs then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization
misc.forsale	mac software for sale have the following macintosh software for sale email interested for complete descriptions all prices are negotiable but first offer asking price gets prices include first class day shipping outside extra oids expert color paint robosport harpoon stratego accolade version authorized milton bradley one one bird original version machines only macfoxes adult game strip poker blackjack adult game justin jslauson magnus acs ohio state edu builders built buildings like write programs then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization
misc.forsale	ski supplies have the following ski equipment for sale poles white salomon boots size ladies womens size shoe two unused soles included what left ski set bought new hardly used excellent condition asking for the entire package you pay shipping and cod charges send some mail will provide further discriptions upon request davis longs lance colostate edu
misc.forsale	new mitsumi mice for sale have these mice which are just taking space office please buy them the price only and will only cost you ship usps you prepay here all know about them mice button high resolution cpi the mice are acutally quite comfortable much like the new ergo mouse snugs the hand scott harris sharris chopin udel edu
misc.forsale	turbo graphx games forsale revised list have the following turbo graphx games for sale all have the cases and instructions asking piece for the games and for you pay the for the first game only please email replies jth bach udel edu alien crush world class baseball takin the hoop psychosis sidearms keith courage legendary axe legendary axe splatterhouse ninja spirit tiger road power golf world sports competition space harrier silent debugers cyber core final lap twin devil crush keith courage galaga aline crush victory run blazing lazers have the following rom games forsale asking each and for the first game book final zone valis iii iii wanderers from dragon slayer rom cosmic fantasy
misc.forsale	united nations souvenir folders cheap official united nations souvenir folders each contains all the stamps issued for that year along with descriptive information regarding each issue the stamps are mint never hinged the retail not catalog prices listed are from the leading united nations dealer mike armus the stamps were issued for use the offices new york and geneva switzerland price take the current retail price for any folder take more folders take off the total take all folders take off the total many cases these folders are priced below the face value the stamps particularly the geneva ones year new york geneva shipping add cents per folder cover actual first class shipping cost foreign orders will charge the actual shipping cost airmail let know how many folders you want thanks
misc.forsale	snes games forsale have the following snes games forsale the ones with have instructions and the other ones have instructions romance the three kingdoms populous legend zelda link the past soul blazer please reply mail jth bach udel edu ask for for for one game you buy more than one still only need thanks jay
misc.forsale	laser discs forsale have the following laser discs forsale all are original covers they are all excellent condition watched them many times and can see myself watching them again asking per disc terminator road warrior hook ghost robo cop repo man romancing the stone lost boys dark man robinhoood prince thieves total recall ask for for the first laser disc you buy more than one the will cover them all
misc.forsale	radar detector forsale have uniden visor clip sized radar detector with and band forsale has city highway and audio mute options and comes with cigarette lighter attachment asking please mail replies jth bach udel edu thanks jay
misc.forsale	hot shots adult cards for sale recently got case hot shots cards unfortunately had not planned keeping all them sort got stuck with the case not going mention any names though trying sell off most all minus set for myself you have any interest set box any singles please let know the set has cards each card features great looking woman various stages dress some nude semi nude lingerie dressed percent are gorgeous feel there are subsets girl girl girls through promo cards through also numbered through emperor all stars through stripping empress through also supposed getting some holograms soon well and lastly have very few error cards and few cards that were originally intended used card but the company changed their mind none these cards are easy get anyway you have some interest any these cards please drop line most eager sell bunch off and you are interested also have set hot shots left and about sets california dreaming cards well and lastly have promo cards for all the cards have mentioned and holograms well not lot though john heiden cleveland freenet edu john heiden freenet cleveland edu
misc.forsale	sharp for sale have like sell now that finished with taing don have nearly many appoints miss and like put the money toward laptop asking bought last christmas great shape and includes added bonus nice padded leather carrying case blair macintyre columbia edu department columbia university you drive you kill from the movie roadkill
misc.forsale	ibm hardware forsale have the following ibm hardware forsale ati vgawonderxl this great card supports colors colors and million colors found that also speed windows considerably asking for this card also have baud modems have docs for both but don have the original boxes both work fine and like get each for both please mail all replies jth bach udel edu thanks jay
misc.forsale	emu sampler for sale emu emax rackmount sampler bit stereo sampling stereo inputs outs internal sequencer voice polyphony meg internal stock ram meg think perfect condition months old obo
misc.forsale	sample for sale got sets sample for sale set one geared towards house techno pop and rap the all drum loops and drum sounds over them the second contains analog synths basses bass loops wavestations vox loops and much much more the second set variety different sounds from new age rock etc kind sampler pardon the pun both have never been used and can supply list categories for the sounds someone seriously interested like for all three they were ish new michael mail for more info
misc.forsale	mhz motherboard for sale 
misc.forsale	lotus forsale have extra copy lotus ver for dos like get for please reply mail jth bach udel edu thanks jay
misc.forsale	mhz motherboard for sale hate when posts that mhz meg ram make offer michael
misc.forsale	sale furniture keywords all items were bought august they are undamaged and like new you are interested the following please send mail the main frame car gandalf queen size box spring and mattress queen size pine headboard sofa slate blue three pillows foot seating area drawer chest drawer chest small kitchen table and four chairs thanks car
misc.forsale	syquest drive and cartridges lower price will take for the whole package original post follows article misc forsale newsgroups misc forsale misc forsale computers from wgs isis msstate edu walter seefeld subject syquest internal drive with cartridges sale trade summary will trade for ide sell for organization mississippi state university distribution date tue apr gmt this drive less than one year old the cartridges have all been bought since then all excellent condition and still under warranty due change system use now need large contiguous drive offer includes sydos internal drive scsi adapter card and cables all original documentation software all original packaging cartridges totalling over bad sectors defects the installation was breeze clone will trade for something near ide sell for will also consider trading for pin simms walter seefeld the dawn early light jackson all know right starkville going reap what have sown qxr jackson brown walter seefeld the dawn early light jackson all know right starkville going reap what have sown qxr jackson brown
misc.forsale	games forsale have the following games forsale cyber empire vga disks prophecy the shadow vga prince persia vga gunship vga global conquest ega kings quest vga kings quest vga ancient art war sea ega mech warrior vga champions krynn ega test drive iii vga balance power ega leisure suit larry the land the lounge lizards vga sentinel world ega the bard tale ega skyfox ega bard tale ega modem wars vga hillsfar ega stunt track racer ega all the games have original boxes and all instructions manuals and copy protection devices please respond mail jth bach udel edu thanks jay
misc.forsale	borland app frmwrks forsale howdy all have recently converted microsoft visual longer want borland application frameworks product this version about months old have all the manuals disks etc licensed but will transfer the license the purchaser under the accepted terms the borland license agreement also have copy the books developing windows applications with borland james mccord sams using borland mark lee atkinson que like sell all the highest bidder under the conditions listed below ship anywhere the via the shipper your choice provided they are local and will pay the cod charges you just pay for the shipping the list price for the product about have seen advertised for low will accept the best offer over plus shipping described above which the list price plus tossing the books listed above which are value will hold the bidding open through the weekend and close sometime the evening please reply via email only serious offers please apply will not consider anything for trade nor any offers less then consider fair price regards steve steve shapiro all views and opinions expressed sks computer consulting inc are own and are offered steve shapiro fidonet org bbs
misc.forsale	for sale have the following for sale each for more except where special price noted melissa etheridge never enough sinead connor not want chicago peter cetera one more story eric clapton layla from unplugged single beverly craven beverly craven bobby mcferrin simple pleasures lynyrd skynyrd gold and platinum double set electric light orchestra greatest hits linda ronstadt greatest hits buster movie soundtrack pretty woman movie soundtrack candy dulfer saxuality yanni dare dream chuck mangione feels good bobby mcferrrin and chick corea play tangerine dream stratosfear ormandy and phil orch beethoven ninth mehta and phil wagner the ring highlights mata and dallas symph ravel bolero albordado rapsodie espagnole mason williams and mannhein steamroller classical gas levi and atlanta symph hindemith symphonic metamorphosis wilhelm kempff beethoven piano sonatas all are excellent condition email for details songlists walter seefeld the dawn early light jackson all know right starkville going reap what have sown qxr jackson brown
misc.forsale	wanted large dog cage need large dog cage the kind you use housebreak dog when you are not around have been adopted month old non housetrained huskey the pittsburgh area number
misc.forsale	human alpha fetoprothein for sale dear sirs commercial firm lithuania polius interested for new partners and establishing business contacts present may offer you the following have human alpha fetoprothein liquit leofil dried state with purity not less than price per every month deliveries quantity for more information please contact mail internet viktor olesov aiva fax phone viktor olesov mail internet viktor olesov aiva vilnius lithuania tel
misc.forsale	electronic organizer model sorry posted this the wrong place wasn sure where this should model memory storage for telephone numbers addresses memos schedule calendar calculator password protection line display full keyboard characters per line search through all data storage areas for keywords transmit receive entries via ibm compatible computers with optional interface kit uses aaa batteries and lithium battery for backup also has world time sound still has year service merchandise warranty left with manual sells new for asking shipping included mail andrew cmu edu
misc.forsale	slc notebook deal have forsale slc notebook very small includes the following cyrix mhz proc fast midwest micro elite series meg hard drive stacker inch drive serial parallel megs ram upgradable megs shades grey vga built trackball very fast machine loaded with windows stacker dos carrying case and power supply bought just months ago for and realized don need this much power notebook was asking now the first person with takes maine maine edu erik sette
misc.forsale	for sale snes star fox home alone snes games for sale home alone star fox will trade for good condition copy must have box docs one the following snes only prince persia gods batman returns super turrican cybernator all prices include shipping all games are excellent condition unless otherwise stated buyers only please all games will shipped inside box with packing priority usps all games include all original materials including box manual etc the first responder offering asking price guarenteed get the game those just asking questions get priority until they offer buy the game lower offers may considered assuming other offers asking price are made sam bauer hewlett packard network test division smb col com colorado springs
misc.forsale	camera bags for sale new list dimensions this reposting cause two the bags are out the door and took dimensions and important camcorder users large padded cordura bag maker unknown orange exterior black straps and interior five outside pockets plus lid compartment lid overlaps internal dividers can repositioned held whole bronica system metz flash etc main chamber not incl lid and pockets very strong bag good for medium format users videographers small nikon shoulder bag sorry sold shipped small nikon belt pouch khaki like similar design army ammo pouch belt clips etc holds flash small zoom fixed lens lens cleaner etc domke belt pouch black sorry sold shipped coast camera bag tan with brown strap main and front pocket can hold slr with small zoom plus flash film etc plus front pouch looks like gore tex but don think really terms payment advance money order bank check cash buyer pays shipping should ups for the others send adequate self addressed mailing envelope padded recommended with enough postage please contact email interested everyone entitled opinion goldberg oasys navy mil imagination more important than knowledge albert einstein everyone entitled opinion goldberg oasys navy mil imagination more important than knowledge albert einstein
misc.forsale	turbo grafx turbo forsale have turbo grafx game system with the add rom system forsale want sell the turbo grafx turbo turbo pad and book and for split the charges please reply mail jth bach udel edu thanks jay
misc.forsale	tapes and serial cables basement cleaning time this stuff has got have two boxes track tapes around tapes box they are free anyone who wants come and pick them they seen very little use anyone wants these bad enough ship they yours for the cost shipping the cod charge and nusiance fee have lot serial cables have all kinds ribbon shielded long short whatever you want most appear work well with serial ports but will not gaurantee that tell what you want and the best can match shipping included cods under you want pay cod charge for cable buy the cable your local computer store instead cheaper believe these cables were removed from service computer center they appear good condition and the ones have used have worked well also have kva exide ups with batteries that needs minor repair probably logic board weighs about pounds and inches high think they used run prime system off best offer over but you need come pick use this run your house from your solar panels will consider reasonable offers any this stuff paul amaranth manager user services office also voicemail internet amaranth vela acs oakland edu this space bitnet amaranth oakland temporarily uucp uunet umich vela amaranth empty
misc.forsale	wanted old record looking for old album cassette tape the group sanford townsend the name the album smoke from distant fire think this album came out somewhere around and believe was the first album produced kenny loggins after and jim messina broke you happen have this album and are willing part with great you don want part with but are willing copy onto cassette love that too thanks kaufmanj ucs orst edu
misc.forsale	exchange your segacd for software anyone would like get rid their segacd for software please get touch ive got loads snes and genesis megadrive software like trade for segacd even partially ill also pay some let know you are interested cheers jonathan onathan phone address department computing fax lancaster university mail jonathan comp lancs lancaster lancs
misc.forsale	more slide projectors for sale have some more slide projectors for sale regardless for first post all with new light bulb lens remote controller all inperfect working condition kodak carousel non kodak carousel autofocus singer caramate built lens casette player non singer caramate built lens casette player non yuesea
misc.forsale	two america west tickets for sale america west airline tickets for sale two vouchers america west airlines which can used toward the purchase tickets wherever that airline goes there are restrictions and blackout times they legally transferable and can used anytime before july asking each please respond with email voice cheryl mathworks com the person selling the tickets spencer world std com the person posting this article call cheryl
misc.forsale	forsale mag innovision mag innovision fantastic multiscan monitor that can display noninterlaced with dot pitch you are looking for large crystal clear super vga monitor then this for you call scott email scotts math orst edu
misc.forsale	high end car amplifiers for sale posted for friend please reply him car amplifiers for sale have high end car amplifiers for sale old style rockford fosgate these are great amps and never had minute trouble with either them been running them high end for quite some time front rear and have been very pleased with them that setup but also run them low end before and they perform quite well that situation well trying sell them because considering upgrading rockford already own power and always liked the way the combo worked cars asking piece and list them when bought them was you interested both them willing come down the price little bit precision power this great utility amplifier rated and looks brand new the shroud unscratched and works great this great low end amp because high power rating into channels however also had running front back high end before where did very well asking for this amp but feel free make offer please direct questions replies hacker krusty gtri gatech edu chase hacker fortune presents gifts not chase gatech edu according the book dcd prism gatech edu hacker krusty gtri gatech edu mike goldsman tech station atlanta georgia pgp key available upon request just say brainwashing
misc.forsale	for sale have the following that like sell gross misconduct metal giants early metal compilation including aerosmith mountain blue oyster cult judus priest etc metal church blessings disguise excellent slayer hell awaits anthrax among the living whiplash power and pain dream theater images and words pull under exodus fabulous disaster heavy death angel the ultra violence hard find all are excellent condition scratches skips after checking several similar articles seems the going rate hence are postage paid please mail you are interested rarely read these groups ship asap after receiving cash check money order mail for snail mail address tlod uhura rochester edu rochester
misc.forsale	vesa looking for vesa local bus card control ide drives floppies game port parallel port and most all serial ports the serial ports must have sockets for the uarts and non this intergraded chipset that generic boards have them message was posted outlan ersys edmonton hst and bis try you like
misc.forsale	put any printed book disk yes put any book disk for you fast and accurate can also put any typewritten printed articles thesis term papers etc disk for you interested reply for details
misc.forsale	bronica sqa more have bronica sqa medium format camera for sale includes lenses film back and view finder firm contact via mail for info live ride ride live jsh suned nswses navy mil any statements made here are mine alone and not the navy far they know
misc.forsale	books for sale cheap someone please buy these books not asking much just make offer and will probably take writing good software fortran graham smith the holt handbook kirszner mandell copyright page writing guide general chemistry principles modern applications petrucci fourth edition big book very good condition solutions manual for chemistry book paperback study guide for chemistry book paperback send your offers via email chopin udel edu sam chopin udel edu
misc.forsale	sams auctionless comic sale instead holding auction have decided compute prices for each comic after many suggestions these are the most reasonable prices can give not negotiable you would like purchase comic group simply email with the title and issue you want the price for each issue shown beside each comic first come first served there more bidding meet price and yours can reached this email address chopin udel edu ravel udel edu bach udel edu brahms udel edu more haggling about the price lots comics for look list shipping for comics for more than the price will determined the volume the purchase may have use big heavy box for large orders which costs more mail for all those who have bought comics from thanks all comics are near mint unless otherwise noted books were graded mile high comics and other comic professional collectors not here the list reserved means that have made deal with person and waiting for the check arrive reserved comics are good sold sorry incredible hulk another hulk captain marvel double size issue silver surfer thor coastal avengers reserved thing werewolf night reserved copy punisher punisher war journal ghost rider ghost rider punisher armory original ghost rider rides again reprint ghost rider old series reserved johnny blaze reserved copies origin dream each ghost rider new series print green glow dark cover copy print gold cover glow cover web spiderman copies each hulk copy left spiderhulk copy left deadly foes spiderman copies each amazing spiderman octopus special nacme issue amazing spiderman doom copy left spiderman silver not bagged copies each wolverine copy left enemy ace special new warriors gold cover superman man steel superman new copies each adventures superman annual superman annual armegedon tie action comics avengers west coast hawkeye agent batman robin returns annual armegedon tie captain america hulk hulk armegedon foolkiller infinity gauntlet double dragon deathlok series transformers last issue wonder man flaming carrot ninja turtles the comet legend the shield justice society america official movie mag from turtles movie sealed jelloman comic robin copies poster print copies each guardians the galaxy copies each copies each superman amazing spiderman oversized issue from reserved darkhawk copies each copies each thor juggernaut ghost rider thor loki copies each new thor annual what alpha flight fant new mutants last issue look force print copies each print gold cover flash new annual uncanny men copies each copy left print gold print defenders hulk sub mariner fantastic four copies each wolverine reserved cable copies each silver surfer foil cover only copy left avengers origin rage factor green lantern copies each toxic avenger copies each sleepwalker copies each kool aid man sealed white bag copies each force bagged cable card bagged shatterstar card nfl superpro strange hawkworld annual print armegedon tie hawk dove annual armegedon tie justice league america annual armegedon tie send all comments chopin udel edu thanks sam the comic book collector college electrical engineering university delaware
misc.forsale	very cheap motherboard novell motherboard with cpu megs memory and ports for shipping firm let know you are interested ailin
misc.forsale	microwave convection oven forsale art cdin compu com art lekoff writes first grabs sears kenmore watt unit fyi art this unit has been sold thank you for your replies there another oven available for those still interested mother decided sell her spare same price the first taker her strictly microwave convection and equally good condition same size our approximately cubic feet let know art art lekoff internet art icdi compu com lisa turn compu erve compuserve com bensalem bell
misc.forsale	forsale fast star pin printer with extras the title says would like sell star pin printer its narrow colum dot matrix supports both parallel and serial interfacing prints characters per second has buffer and very dependable drop some mail your interested plus shipping get the printer and extra srink wraped ribbons parallel connection cable power cord manual and one sheet paper smile roy
misc.forsale	cordless phone all uniden cordless phone model perfect working condition but base station missing its antenna the antenna mount intact shipping included prepaid not reply dino fiabane pics com your mail will bounce sent that address instead please reply only via private mail pics dino fiabane twwells com since home bbs can only handle personal messages through mail for the time being any further replies from you will also arrive via mail instead way regular newsgroup dino fiabane weston drive cherry hill phone slmr reply pics dino fiabane twwells com via mail pics online multiuser system hst massive file collection over files online newsgroups
misc.forsale	internal modem all gvc technologies bps modem bps operation with automatic speed selection ccitt bis full duplex operation asynchronous operation auto answer auto dial automatically switch between data and voice transmission supports com port and irq analog digital remote digital loopback test modes communication crosstalk software and manual included modem manual warranty registration card included optional ccitt bis mnp module providing error correction and data compression increase throughput bps available directly from the manufacturer mint condition not reply dino fiabane pics com your mail will bounce sent that address instead please reply only via private mail pics dino fiabane twwells com since home bbs can only handle personal messages through mail for the time being any further replies from you will also arrive via mail instead way regular newsgroup dino fiabane weston drive cherry hill phone slmr reply pics dino fiabane twwells com via mail pics online multiuser system hst massive file collection over files online newsgroups
misc.forsale	wanted ibm clone better friend mine the market for system should have ram svga monitor and card you have one for sale then email and will forward him thanks jonathan johnw unixhub slac stanford edu
misc.forsale	for new opened softwares games have following softwares for sale new items never opened lucid three dimensional spreadsheet with pull down menus line help pages notes behind every cell for dynamic detail capability compatible with lotus etc including shipping manual disks turbo pascal express with ready run assembly language routines that make turbo pascal faster more powerful and easier use book and disks including shipping halo iii much more than icon driven paint program complete page composition and presentation graphics package automatic aspect ratio correction for wysiwyg printing true color grey scale output and partial screen prints disks and manual including shipping key form designer plus software for making professional business forms disks and manual plus shipping obo like new items package opened but not registered jetfighter advanced tactical fighter well and disks and manuals plus shipping obo nighthwak stealth fighter the definitive simulation america radar elusive jet sensational sound nine world hot spots cuba north korea the kuwaiti theatre operations central europe the north cape libya the persian gul vietnam and the middle east awesome missions challenge you disks and manual plus shipping obo grammatik plus shipping quattro pro make offer gem chart graphics word publisher make offer all items above are for ibm compatible systems
misc.forsale	dos for sale cheap for sale dos with original manuals box and either disks full version not oem including all shipping charges please respond bitzm columbia dsu edu mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet sdnet bitnet
misc.forsale	all kinds computer items for sale for sale cga card road track grand prix disks dos packard bell dot pitch vga color monitor the max vga card please make offers for the above merchandise what you have lose ahead make offer thanks email bitzm columbia dsu edu mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet sdnet bitnet
misc.forsale	forsale thule silca pump blaupunkt radar selling assortment goods they all excellent shape the amp and detector were rarely used thule rack with locks for gti jetta yrs silca floor bike pump pink uniden radar detector and bands orig blaupunkt car amp orig shipping included all prices interested please respond email whsld login sldenton cbnewsj att com phone office thanks sandy
misc.forsale	datsun car for sale have datsun hatchbak forsale blue datsun two doors three since hatchback miles automatic very good condition hate sell but phila insurance outrageous also don need car right now asking call ron email perrault chem upenn edu
misc.forsale	sega glasses wanted does anyone have pair sega glasses they willing part with know anywhere acquire pair they don have them around here thanks inspiration comes baden sys bison those who baden inqmind bison seek the baden bari unknown
misc.forsale	stering silver necklace for sale have few italian made stering silver necklace for sale size are have low shipping less than cents rope design necklace weight around grams for rope desgin necklace weight around gram for only have few left please respond asap thnx tatsuya
misc.forsale	ensoniq cross wave synthesizer for sale ensoniq cross wave synthesizer have for sale the powerful performance oriented synth with limited board sequencer bought because has very large timbral repertoire seems meaty analog synth sounds well sounds that are considerably more digital below are list features extracted from the owner manual eight voice polyphonic poly timbral synthesizer capable playing eight different sounds once with dynamic stereo panning for each voice voice section employing cross wave synthesis combine different attack and sustain wave segments create complex dynamic sounds sampled waves includes drumset serve the sound source dynamic voice allocation each sequencer track midi channel has access all eight voices full featured midi controller keyboard capable sending eight midi program and volume changes once keyboard velocity sensitive and transmits receives velocity and polyphonic aftertouch powerful matrix modulation scheme allows very wide range modulation sources and routings floppy disk drive which writes reads ordinary disks allows fast and reliable storage sequences and sound patches single floppy disk also has ram cart slot for patches that compatible with esq ram carts does sysex dumps its floppy disk for any sysex capable midi device character fluorescent display and user friendly page driven programming scheme provides fairly humane user interface stereo line outs and stereo headphone jack for private listening sound programs and sequences are upwardly compatible with the esq that sounds and sequences created for the esq can played the this has been the main midi controller studio for quite while now has performed ably that role and has also been heavily used sound source the same time the seems have been designed with this role mind and works very well with software sequencer wincake its multitimbral mode from synthesis point view this machine hybrid uses looped short samples there are them sources then these waves are processed with sophisticated dcf dca arrangement the capable great things because its pole analog lowpass filter simply put makes fabulous analog synth sounds but unlike most good analog synths has very thorough midi implementation that works very well with midi sequencer what really like most about this thing that capable making very wide range sounds this about years old mfg date does have track sequencer but like most board sequencers pain use have avoided reason for sale selling because recently joined forces with another individual here boston and have more keyboards than space put them recommend for someone who getting started sequencing and needs powerful but economical master keyboard pricing and terms paid for this synth few years ago willing accept average asking price will include bunch patches floppy disks for the buyer this synth well the original ensoniq owner manual price asking everything shipping split shipping ups surface cod anywhere the lower states craig vanderborgh verbex voice systems mail craigv rad verbex com russell street phone littleton
misc.forsale	for sale interseted buing some those student please reply saying how contact you
misc.forsale	exabyte exb tape drive for sale please reply the seller below for sale exabyte exb tape drive writes per data grade tape uncompressed latest eeprom revs fully compatible with sun machines black faceplate seen very little use due the fact that have tapes decided that money more valuable than quick and convenient backups list catalog specials your price shipping extra please email responses lee thx polarsun rna rockefeller edu
misc.forsale	terminal mono forsale for sale graphon terminal monitor adjustable between landscape and portrait orientation landscape resolution portrait resolution diagonal screen with very small footprint support thin and thick ethernet connectors and emulation additional software for sun machines provided price shipping extra heavy lbs send email offers flames lee thx polarsun rna rockefeller edu
misc.forsale	maxtor scsi maxtor scsi drive access time years old external casing andrew cmu edu
misc.forsale	cdtv acessories monitor subject cdtv accessories monitor because the questionable bids being placed for the set including some guideline prices this repost negotiable course anticipation the arrival new computer system selling cdtv and accessories rush sell this you don have the money now but may able get few weeks make bid and let know now willing sell the pieces separately but will wait sell until they are all accounted for least cdtv and keyboard kit will sell the monitor separately cdtv months old mint condition comes with all documentation packaging receipt etc all mint condition demo disc will start bidding for this cdtv keyboard package keyboard mouse drive comes with all documention packaging receipt etc months old mint turns your cdtv into full fledged amiga computer will start bidding for this monitor couple years old very good condition comes with all documentation packaging and receipt can find will start bdding for this software various titles games demos etc note have cdtv discs all software disc based free with package deal please send your best bid maine call ask for zero batzell you can leave message not zero batzell cdtv owner come peace shoot kill iguana owner ncc heart gold university maine video hobbyist live long and don panic student with star trek tng fan mostly harmless douglas adams fan major life the universe transfer mind orson scott card fan and everything the enterprise not ship for freeloading degenerate hitchhikers
misc.forsale	camera bag sale two left all are gone except and ahead make offer can refuse large padded cordura bag sorry sold awaiting check small nikon shoulder bag sorry gone small nikon belt pouch khaki similar army ammo pouch belt clips etc holds flash small zoom lens cleaner etc great for your extra lens when you don want tote shoulder bag think can hold small walkman and some tapes postage domke belt pouch sorry gone coast camera bag tan brown strap trim main and front pocket and respectively can hold slr with small zoom plus flash even compact vhs video camcorder material looks like gore tex but don think think can also hold your portable player with bunch discs headphones etc postage terms payment advance money order bank check cash everyone entitled opinion goldberg oasys navy mil imagination more important than knowledge albert einstein everyone entitled opinion goldberg oasys navy mil imagination more important than knowledge albert einstein
misc.forsale	dana weick still out there crook don deal with him please help looking for dana weick month ago made deal with him over the net was sell him some memory exchang for and cpu thought the deal was great went with sent him the memory cod for was then suppose send the cpu receive his cod payment send message the sent the cpu out has been two weeks and didn receive the cpu send him numerous message asking for confirmation that the cpu was ship what address send make sure didn get lost the mail never reply mail finally resorted calling him arizona the first call didn get throught got answering machine left him number didn reply call again the next day and pick the phone asked him had send out the cpu said yes but doesn know what address sent said that you would check his record home and call back the next day suprise never called then send him some more email messages never reply again strang when the deal was being made reply every message now that got memory won even reply now still calling him but won pick the phone also still emailing him but won reply mail any one know this dana weick please contact him can reach dana weick las palmaritas phoenix the day time this his business number the evenings this his home number his email address weick master lds loral com this our deal from weick master lds loral com wed mar pin simms aren hot sellers pick them the upgrade market for quite often best can the and you got deal trade you pins simms for intel and need you address for shippment will ship via cod and pay shipping handling when the simms arrive there will charge your part you can send the cpu via cod possible address the way the cpu under warranty great you can send the simms dana weick las palmaritas phoenix days evenings would prefer mail day priority only costs the cpu brand new install correctly meaning don plug backwards bend any pins and warranty for months thanks send him and said that got the cod payment and asked the cpu sent out yet the cpu sent out yet replied glad the cod payment got you the cpu has been sent keep your eyes out for very careful when you install careful static discharge bending pins during insertion and above all make absolutely certain you plug the chip the proper orientation the chip was checked out prior shipping and you cook plugging backwards won real sympathetic you don know how tell what orientation the chip should installed don guess dana weick update call him sunday his wife debbie picked the phone she said that was busy with his kids and would call back minuets half house went weick didn called called him again and his phone was discon nected since this post have numberous people who mail saying that this dana weick have ripped them off got something about this guy has appearrently been doing this for few years now and getting away with minh pham mail minh wpi wpi edu worcester polytechnical institute
misc.forsale	wanted chip megabyte simms the market for megabyte simms these must the chip variety and also must nanoseconds email bitzm columbia dsu edu thanks mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet sdnet bitnet
misc.forsale	snes ranma ranma professionally converted play snes asking willing trade for snes simearth dragonball bill opferman thoughts not employer email opferman jupiter fnbc com leave them out fax thanks enjoy the buffet
misc.forsale	vhs movies must sell because moving subject vhs movies must sell because moving from koutd hiramb hiram edu newsgroups misc forsale rec video subject vhs movies must sell because moving message apr hiramb hiram edu from koutd hiramb hiram edu douglas kou date apr organization hiram college those vhs movies have sold because moving weeks and have idea what happend those people who made the deal with before here trying post another message againt don mean waste your valuable time basic instinct born the forth july backdraft presumed innocent the prince tides dance wolves all the prices are including shipping you get all them for package deals are very welcome make offer douglas kou hiram college koutd hirama hiram edu douglas like purchase basic instinct for all other notes you have been returned don know why keeps saying address unknown please let know this movie still available thank you jordan mcauley atlanta dita info blackwlf mese com slmr hopper bbs ehbbs com berkeley lake atlanta georgia usr hst bis home uupcb usenet for board
misc.forsale	movie plan from outer space wanted looking for copy bela lugosi last film anyone has copy this stinker please mail also anyone knows better place post this please tell eric jaron stieglitz ejs cunixb columbia edu school you ate the only thing ever loved home seymour lsoh
misc.forsale	unix books the following books are for sale all are good excellent condition make offers rob phavl uucp uunet phavl rob robert ransbottom general supply metals inc voice index miscellany unix operating system intel processor dos miscellany algorithms sedgewick hardbound list programmers work lammers list software reliability musa iannino okumoto hardbound list the users guide small computers jerry pournelle list out the inner circle bill landreth list elementary pascal ledgard singer list language object oriented program design with examples mark mullin list language variations schustack list programs and data structures ammeraal list turbo programmer library jamsa list advanced turbo hebert schildt list understanding bruce hunter list database development stevens list programmer library purdum leslie stegemotter list dobbs toolbook dobb journal list with excellence programing proverbs henry ledgard list the pocket reference herbert schildt list programming guide jack purdum some wear list programmer toolkit disk jack purdum list step step waite prata list unix and operating system the unix system environment bourne list unix papers michael waite editor list unix for dos programmers steven mikes list the business guide the unix system yates emerson list unix programming the alan deikman list unix the complete reference stephen collin list unix primer plus waite martin prata list unix for programmers introduction daniel farkas list unix for super users foxley list unix communications henderson list microport system made easy learning the unix reilly list understanding and using coff gintaras reilly assoc list operating system design the xinu approach comer foosum hard list microcomputer operating systems dahmke list intel processor dos inside the ibm disk peter norton list using turbo prolog robinson list using assembly language wyatt ibm orientation list compute quick easy guide learning lotus doug wolf list advanced programming techniques james turley list intel system software writer guide intel corp list performance programming under dos michael young list programmer problem solver for the ibm jourdain list rob robert ransbottom extremely important maintain correct attributions anonymous
misc.forsale	wanted sim city for hello there looking for sim city for new used please make your offer cchu udel edu thanks chu
misc.forsale	singles for sale here list mostly european singles have for sale all are brand new and some are still shrink wrapped please mail interested crowded house weather with you remixes peter gabriel blood eden digipak booklet remix mercy street genesis never time dreaming while you sleep live turn again live tonight tonight tonight full version live brian may too much love will kill you too much love will kill you guitar version more radio song live from green world tour shiny happy people secong song losing religion live acoustic version near wild heaven tom diner low endgame live man the moon non tracks fruity organ new orleans instrumental arms love the sidewinder sleeps tonite non tracks the lions sleeps tonight fretless the sidewinder sleeps tonite non tracks organ song star kitten demo version everybody hurts edit new orleans instrumental long version mandolin strum everybody hurts edit non tracks chance dub dark globe sting ever lose faith you songs from mtv unplugged all this time mad about you every breath you take sting ever lose faith you same above but digipak form sunday bloody sunday remixes two hearts beat one new year day the unforgettable fire the three sunrises sort homecoming love comes tumbling bass trap who gonna ride your wild horses paint black salome zooromancer remix can help falling love triple peaks remix neil young harvest moon single edit deep forbidden lake campaigner winterlong
misc.forsale	wanted searching for music videos currently searching for old video tapes music groups the early the late first requested vhs formats but now accepting either vhs beta the type format interested are the type that most nite clubs trendy clothing stores play you have any these tapes just send reply with few groups listed reply back the groups listed are the type searching for gladly pay you what they are worth trade for other movie music videos thanks tom you are now leaving the state southern california please buckle thank you for visiting the earthquake state inet tsmith cerritos edu
misc.forsale	supra fax ext stand alone modem forsale supra fax modem bis external stand alone forsale external with digital status display fax speed send receive compat with class group data rate bis bis mnp hayes compatible command with external cable your serial port works with mac amiga
misc.forsale	tapes for sale each ppd there again still have few tapes left before they are each postage paid best offer multiple orders appreciated but not necessary package deals welcome thanks chris bray lewis huey sports contains heart rock and roll heart and soul want new drug walking thin line this and more hooters nervous night contains and danced day day all you zombies nervous night poison look what the cat dragged their tape contains cry tough wont forget you talk dirty and more hall oates big bam boom contains out touch possession obsession and more ratt out the cellar contains wanted man round and round and more quiet riot condition critical contains mama weer all krazy now outfield play deep contains say isn your love all the love the world and more plant robert shaken stirred contains little little journey raised radio contains girl cant help suzanne good yourself ill alright without you why cant this night forever monkees then and now the best the monkees contains all their big hits plus some inxs kick contains mediate new sensation devil inside need you tonight never tear apart mystify and more great tape csb engr uark edu chris bray cbray uafhp uark edu university arkansas fayetteville you know some white coral painted brown and attached the skull with some common wood screws can make child look like deer
misc.forsale	ibm hardware fosale lowered prices have the following ibm hardware forsale ati vgawonderxl this great card supports colors colors and million colors found that also speed windows considerably asking for this card also have internal baud modems have docs for both but don have the original boxes both work fine and like get each for both backups backup power supply that allows cpu and monitor continue operate minutes event power failure asking please mail all replies jth bach udel edu thanks jay
misc.forsale	genesis sega software forsale sega genesis sega forsale recently moved with some friends who have genesis player selling whole setup like sell everything together the package come with sega genesis sega joysticks pad sewer shark sol feace sega classics games streets rage revenge shinobi columns golden axe sherlock holmes music graphics sampler john madden cart all the games have cases and instructions and everything great condition would really like get for all this stuff the sega alone worth please email responses jth bach udel edu dropping the price can get that much then won sell thanks jay
misc.forsale	lotus ver forsale new price have extra copy lotus ver for dos this package was originally like get for please reply mail jth bach udel edu thanks jay
misc.forsale	for sale lifecall system for sale one complete set lifecall equipment including the base unit portable transmitter and pendant plus days free monitering service description item convenient and secure anyone whose home being broken into whose parents live alone who has children elderly parents who suffers heart attack stroke who temporarily permanently disabled and more superior features allows you talk the monitering center using the transmitter help will sent you soon possible allows for personal freedom and independence deal item worth open market asking for best offer interested please email kmgoh leland stanford edu call will send the certificate delivery and relevant documents you goh kwang meng arroyo wilbur box stanford
misc.forsale	for sale air tix bahamas have certificate for round trip airfares the bahamas expiration date one year from now the maximum value depending time and location estimated asking for best offer for more information call goh send mail kmgoh leland stanford edu goh kwang meng arroyo wilbur box stanford
misc.forsale	for sale air tix orlando vegas and reno have certificate for one round trip airfares either orlando las vegas and reno lake tahoe expiration date one year from now the maximum retail value depending time and location estimated for all three locations including accommodation for days and nights leading hotel asking for best offer purchase tickets for single location possible for more information call goh send mail kmgoh leland stanford edu goh kwang meng arroyo wilbur box stanford
misc.forsale	for sale air tix acapulco cancun have certificate for one round trip airfares either acapulco cancun mexico expiration date one year from now the maximum retail value depending time and location estimated including accommodation for days and nights leading hotel asking for best offer for more information call goh send mail kmgoh leland stanford edu goh kwang meng arroyo wilbur box stanford
misc.forsale	cheap harddisks for your ibm have few the original ibm harddisks for sale they are actually seagate mfm full height has the ibm logo and black face plate each disk checked and formatted with dos can doubled with dblspace stacker you desire have the original ibm foam fitted boxies and anti static bags not sure they were ever used but each drive that sent out will quarenteed good working order each plus shipping cost about you have one those old ibm pcs this for you cheaper than floppy drive
misc.forsale	composite monochrome monitor for sale have few composite monochrome monitors for sale magnovax computer monitor model number rca type input for video only audio power brightness and contrast dials front and hold and position controls the back nice little monitor that can used for pcs amigas your vcr security monitor excellent condition asking for plus shipping and cod not exceed applicable
misc.forsale	stereo records for sale 
misc.forsale	sony color watchman sale sony color watchman model fdl vhf uhf pixels inch diag screen dimensions bright vibrant colors and very sharp unlike the casio pocket tvs power adapter paid asking obo
misc.forsale	wanted mhz floating point proc say the subject line about covers need floating point processor for sun system please reply via email you got one these thingies that you like sell thanks paul moreau storage concepts inc diagnostics eng deere ave email paulm storcon com irvine uucp storcon paulm fax
misc.forsale	speakers forsale home speakers nht now hear this inc model floor tower speaker system the model pair way design with tweeter mid range and two woofer for low bass impedance ohms minimum ohms the cross over points are and khz frequency response rated khz rated efficiency power rating between watts per channel black finish magnetic shielded perfect for surround sound front speakers hifi audio speakers retail macys asking obo year old rarely used excellent just like new condition bose book shelf speakers black perfect condition like new paid asking firm bang olufsen beovox satellite speakers white brand new box paid obo yamaha center center paid asking firm just like new yamaha rear channel speakers for doby surround sound paid asking just like new car speakers boston acoustic seperates car audio speakers woofers with seperate tweeters and crossovers brand new box never been installed good guys asking firm mtx free air woofers new box never been installed paid each good guys asking firm
misc.forsale	kenwood audiophile cassette tape deck sale kenwood audiophile cassette tape deck asking obo shipping original price paid excellent condition well maintained rarely used model kenwood audiophile series kenwood highend stereo component programmable playback with memory system used program the playback order selection program stored ram random access memory system with digital display the song being played counter memory index when this mode selected count the tape counter can stored memory this function useful when necessary stop restart the tape during fast forward rewind search mode searching for selection skipping selection repeating selection can preformed touch time stand switch this used along with audio timer when unattended timer recording timer playback performed dolby with mpx filter bias adjustment used obtain optimum bias that matches the type type played tape selector switch cro fecr normal metal rec mute key when recording press this key delete undesired portions between programs such announcements and commercials when this key pressed the tape runs forwards for seconds make unrecorded section then the pause function automatically stops the tape restart recording press pause key once flurescent peak program meters rec level controls phone jack mic jacks input selector switch specs type front loading stereo cassette deck dolby system track system track channel stereo mono recording playback heads record and playback head amorphous alloy erase head double gap ferrite motor motors frequency response normol tape hzm cro tape hzm fecr tape hzm metal tape hzm signal noise ratio dolby metal tape dolby off metal tape harmonic distortion less that wow flutter dimensions
misc.forsale	sale localbus cpu weitek video ide etc cad setup for sale plb local bus motherboard can use simms expansion slots bit slots bit slot weitek processor socket mhz intel cpu mhz weitek math processor host local bus video card based tseng labs chip design supports resolutions interlaced non interlaced uses ramdac allow colors colors register level compatible with cga ega vga mda software drivers available for symphony autocad autoshade windows wordperfect vesa and emulation also contained the card local bus ide controller floppy disk controller two fully configuarable serial ports parallel port game port used this setup run autocad and studio the combination local bus and the weitek processor made for very fast cad and modeling work the weitek coprocessor can cut studio render times half and sometimes more also increases redraws and regens when modeling both studio and autocad everything less than year old asking shipping for the whole package please respond via email thanks jason tobias jtobias photon tamu edu
misc.forsale	electronic typewriter needed wanted word processing typewriter friend looking for wordproccing electronic typewriter preferably with char display and spelling correction send info the addresses below thanks steve you know think should put some mountains here otherwise what are all the characters going fall off laurie anderson stephen crume scrume magnus acs ohio state edu scrume magnus acs ohio state edu ohstmvsa bitnet
misc.forsale	test article bigboote wpi edu coates bigwpi wpi edu jeffery david coates writes from coates bigwpi wpi edu jeffery david coates subject test date apr gmt organization worcester polytechnic institute test failed
misc.forsale	misc car audio forsale denon dcr high power pull out cassette deck with changer control features theft prevention chassis pull out station presets denon optimum reception system circuitry auto high blend and pulse noise cancellor dolby key off head release flexible fader internal front amp rear amp and internal front amp internal rear amp auto reverse cassette mechanism down manual seek tuning music sensor stereo mono local switches metal tape switch din with easy installation lock sleeve night illumination with dash light dimmer lead preset scan changer control random play all tracks disc automatic manual search excellent condition with manual asking shipping yamaha ypa power amplifier car audio features selectable mode power output all extremely low distortion thd low rfi circuit effectively eliminates radio frequency interference which might arise from conversion full protection circuitry protects amplifier from potential damaged caused overload short circuiting leakage excessive heat mis wiring input level adjustment allows you complement your system with any audio component gold plated rca jack ensures durable optimum contact even under rugged road conditions remote power links the entire system off with the cassette receiver tuner power switch screw terminals allow simple wiring connections power fuse replacement simple one step operation alternater noise reduction circuitry effectively suppressed during driving specifications continuous power output per channel ohms channels driven with thd khz with thd khz per channel ohms channels driven with thd khz btl with thd khz btl speaker impedance ohms frequency response ohms khz signals noise ratio total harmonic distortion khz ohms khz lpf dimensions weight lbs list price this one the nicest cleanest amp that have even owned using two these car this just extra one that don really need you are the bay area and like listen first let know asking firm shipping brand new box never been installed boston acoustic seperates car audio speakers woofers with seperate tweeters and crossovers brand new box never been installed good guys asking firm mtx free air woofers new box never been installed paid each good guys asking firm ungo box top the line auto alarm with twin buttons remote patented electronic motion shock sensor parking light flasher ignition kill panic mode power door lock unlocking control led flashing status light arms all doors hood and trunk etc news box firm
misc.forsale	playboy magazines roommate left his playboy collection which longer wants offering them the general public that you make offer for the entire collection will accept the best offer offer does not include cheapest method shipping from bethlehem february supermodel rachel williams world tour pom tanya beyer may shannon tracy tweed pom carrie jean yazel july tall girls miss bulgaria pom wendy kaye september barbi twins pom samantha dorman november toya jackson pom tonja marie christensen december dian parkinson from the price right pom wendy hamilton july sharon stone marilyn look alike pom jacqueline sheen october girls the big west gladiator marisa pare pom brittany york november teri copley from got made sex cinema pom lorraine olivia stewardess january anniversary issue collector edition february year sex rio grand pom simone eden march toya jackson pom laurie wood august women wall diana lee from license kill pom gianna amore november donna mills sex cinema pom renee tenison august sunshine girls pom helle michaelsen october girls the southwest conference pom shannon long november women washington sex cinema pom pia reyes december playmate review sex stars lysette anthony pom kata karkkainen november jessica hahn sex cinema pom pam stein also special edition playboy presents beautiful women bsme mba looking for job hiring mail jwg lehigh edu take walk the wild side biffman lehigh university bethlehem usa
misc.forsale	not all deals are bad thomas arneberg dev toma baritone wrote article apr iscsvax uni edu harter iscsvax uni edu writes just wanted let you know that there are few honest and good people out there even outside iowa sorry anyone thinks that wasting space but thought you might want some relief from the and thief posts not that think shouldn hear about the bad deals but would nice hear some good news once while this was nice kevin post this but just one misled the vast majority usenetters are honest and good people fact the latest study all net deals went off smoothly without hitch just that the few bad ones are what get all the publicity agreed have yet run into problem deals over the net and have bought things from cds plenty full computer the only small problem that have had was with ups rather than the seller besides complaints are always what get the publicity when something goes wrong people complain rarely have seen posts stating how well deal went through guess kevin practically first rather swimming samuel pedroza ibm austin awsd mail pedroza mccloud austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com speaking only for myself not ibm
misc.forsale	for sale pocket ethernet adapter xircom pocket ethernet adapter connects any with parallel port the network make offer sig under construction send suggestions pledge netcom com
misc.forsale	stereo equipment speakers for sale keywords polk sansui akai stereo for sale polk rta speakers sansui watt akai csm best offer friend asked post this for him you are interested want more information call him not reply thanks call carl leave message not there
misc.forsale	mfm seagate ibm they all are mfm type and good working condition buyers pay shipping ailin
misc.forsale	cheap hard drives for your have few the original ibm harddisks for sale they are actually seagate mfm full height has the ibm logo and black face plate each disk checked and formatted with dos can doubled with dblspace stacker you desire have the original ibm foam fitted boxies and anti static bags not sure they were ever used but each drive that sent out will quarenteed good working order each plus shipping cost about you have one those old ibm pcs this for you cheaper than floppy drive
misc.forsale	keyboard only the title says all not ibm brand eric
misc.forsale	deskjet and accessories forsale have for sale the following hewlett packard deskjet additional deskjet ink cartridges parallel printer cable the printer approx years old months use and then year storage during relocation from illinois columbus and excellent condition all original manuals and boxes are included the selling price for the entire package unwilling break because what good would cartridges without printer interested call either you can also respond via mail ricardo rollins mail rollins cblph att com bell laboratories voice broad disclaimer opinions expressed are not mine columbus unless they morally ethically and politically correct
misc.forsale	counterpoint tube power amp counterpoint watts per channel very very warm tube sound great for warming cds excellent shape asking thanks tom nezwek
misc.forsale	nice telecope for sale tasco used once looks like new worth sell only buyers pay shipping ailin
misc.forsale	mazda glc for sale mazda glc miles charcoal grey automatic transmission stereo system with way speaker rear window defrost cruise control new water pump front tires headlight heat shield year old battery and transmission well maintained with all records purchase and service inspection done feb good condition reason for selling moving out austin negotiable must see appreciate call leave message answering machine email che utexas edu sulagna chatterjee department chemical engineering che utexas edu university texas austin chcu bongo utexas edu
misc.forsale	mac lcii for sale have mac lcii purchased last august just the cpu and mouse monitor keyboard obo peter white csc albany edu pwhite mac archive umich edu
misc.forsale	wanted channel multitrack recorder cassette preferred would like buy channel multitrack recorder would prefer cassette machine such those made fostex tascam yamaha etc but would consider reel reel well write you know anything thanks craig scratchley internet scratch sce carleton dept systems and computer engineering phone dept carleton university home ottawa canada fax dept craig scratchley internet scratch sce carleton dept systems and computer engineering phone dept carleton university home ottawa canada fax dept
misc.forsale	meg western digital ide hard drive for sale selling western digital meg ide the caviar model the access time and has built cache brand new still the original static bag asking obo
misc.forsale	split scanner ram toaster tbc svhs vcr scope sorry for the frequency the posting time crunch selling toys can afford house amiga mhz built fpu mmu megs ram megs video ram expandable gigabytes scsi controller fujitsu scsi drive years warranty year site service remaining obo epson full page dpi bit color scanner sware and adpro loader software standalone and adpro loader docs cable supra faxmodem bis latest roms scsi rom drive internal mitsubishi diamondscan aum multisync khz analog rgb ttl video inputs all the above obo less than original amiga toaster system amiga zeus mhz fpu and mmu built year warranty megs ram meg video memory quantum prodrive scsi drive personal tbc time base correctors video and composite docs sware video toaster with lots fonts and objects and toastervision toastervision arexx sequencing toaster croutons framestore compress instructional video scsi rom drive sony slvr svhs vcr new warranty color rgb composite monitors pioneer video disc player cld out composite out rock solid sync generator multi format video disc players obo will parcel this stuff out necessary please send offers meade newtonian reflector telescope aperture very heavy duty mount clock drive dual axis corrector with joystick and drive fiberglassed tube for bit more strength finder scopes finder scope finder scope with diagonal holder and eyepiece barrel for eyepieces includes adapter for eyepieces eyepiece eyepiece take your pick both for more manuals needs collimated but otherwise superb condition really prefer sell locally due its size maxtor meg formatted sun shoebox all software listed below for the amiga comes with boxes diskettes manuals and many cases are unopened containing registration cards mean golf greg norman shark attack superstar ice hockey jack nicklaus microbot design disk pga tour golf renegade balance power world trophy soccer waterloo omni play basketball all above software cadence treadmill used for about month manual lcd panel built computer must sell locally due size bought for asking this posted for friend please email him mqk umich edu amiga megs ram scsi drive scsi controller monitor obo thanks ralph please call after send email best way reach rps arbortext com gilgalad dip eecs umich edu ralph seguin glencoe hills ann arbor
misc.forsale	for sale karmann ghia karmann ghia this car excellent running condition new engine new tires aug new clutch new carb original radio upholstery great shape burgundy exterior black interior this car has been well maintained with regular tune ups unfortunately the car previous owner had minor front end collision the right front nose dented and patched with bondo have the hard find part needed repair this damage besides that damage the car excellent condition courtney email cst blueoak berkeley edu phone after weekdays
misc.forsale	for sale custom couch and piano location corona del mar orange county for sale contemporary custom couch long cushions solid black raw silk like material rolled armrests clean design excellent condition left behind parents when moved out state best offer for sale wurlitzer console piano bench cherry wood great condition best offer contact dell louise williams
misc.forsale	john bell any luck catching him yet was one the unfortunate people run into this guy sent him cash stupid know for cds that was the last heard him know there were some other people ripped off this guy has there been any advances tracking him down tom
misc.forsale	wanted tickets cleveland phantom the opera show need tickets the cleveland showing phantom the opera will pay face value for tickets the dollar and lower range preferably matinee show but any middle late may will bought please leave mail
misc.forsale	bps modem all gvc technologies bps modem bps operation with automatic speed selection ccitt bis full duplex operation asynchronous operation auto answer auto dial automatically switch between data and voice transmission supports com port and irq analog digital remote digital loopback test modes communication crosstalk software and manual included modem manual warranty registration card included optional ccitt bis mnp module providing error correction and data compression increase throughput bps available directly from the manufacturer mint condition not reply dino fiabane pics com your mail will bounce sent that address instead please reply only via private mail pics dino fiabane twwells com since home bbs can only handle personal messages through mail for the time being any further replies from you will also arrive via mail instead way regular newsgroup dino fiabane weston drive cherry hill phone slmr reply pics dino fiabane twwells com via mail pics online multiuser system hst massive file collection over files online newsgroups
misc.forsale	informix wingz dos for sale for sale informix wingz graphic spreadsheet with hyperscript version runs under windows network ready distribution brand new unopened shipping not included email queries responses flames lee lee polarsun rna rockefeller edu
misc.forsale	sun scsi host adapter for sale please reply the seller below for sale sun scsi host adapter assembly brand new unopened mylar sun part pin dsub external connector compatible with sun machines available march originally purchased for eighteen months ago please email offers lee lee polarsun rna rockefeller edu
misc.forsale	comic book sale hello name john and have the following comic books for sale please feel free make bid you like add one dollar for shipping usa remember mail your replies oeth iscsvax uni edu not regular this group thank you marvel silver surfer current series copies factor copies excalibur the first square bound the punisher copies comics watchmen one copy each the omega men the first lobo appearance green arrow the longbow hunters copies all autographed mike grell copies only one copy alternate comic companies get this teenage mutant ninja turtles not reprints auto graphed kevin eastman and michaelangelo donatello aliens darkhorse press copies whitman comics star trek autographed james doohan you know scotty thank you again for your time john oeth iscsvax uni edu
misc.forsale	minolta master series vhs camcorder forsale for sale minolta master series vhs camcorder forsale multidimensional autofocus system power zoom charge coupled device dual area autoexposure system for backlit subjects high speed digital shutter sec dual mode self timer date time insert linear tape counter power focus advanced auto white balance system mic jack out remote connector earphone minijack excellent condition used several times two years original box and packing adapter charger vac one standard vbp min one extra vbp min cassette adapter for full size vhs viewing bunch miscellaneous extras adapter cords etc available immediately price firm shipping extra please email responses lee lee polarsun rna rockefeller edu
misc.forsale	for sale pocket ethernet adapter article pledgec mue netcom com pledge netcom com alan mclachlan writes xircom pocket ethernet adapter connects any with parallel port the network make offer note the device has never been used still plastic and baset sig under construction send suggestions pledge netcom com
misc.forsale	gateway telepath fax modem for sale gateway fax modem send receive fax baud send receive baud more never been used comes with software crosstalk winfax new from gateway only sold gateway customer will fit into your bus asking for obo
misc.forsale	mini vacation package for sale have following acapulco cancun mini vacation voucher for sale voucher entitles the holder one roundtrip airfare and three days two nights lodging for one two adults acapulco cancun your choice mexico you have months use the voucher all reservations must made days advance holiday and peak periods are excluded flights generally depart mid week usually tuesdays from more than major airports additional air transportation for additional person will made available fully refundable deposit required should sent along with the voucher casablanca express june after that you will get the reservation request form which you have one year travel this package doesn include meals hotel taxes and gratuities the voucher offered casablanca express balboa blvd ste encino approximate retail value the voucher cited the voucher fully transferable best offer takes greg landsberg sbhep phy sunysb edu
misc.forsale	bmx bike obo apple iie computer extras obo please not reply this account posting for friend bmx bike chrome frame blue alloy parts rims mint condition asking obo apple iie floppy drive monitor okidata microline printer modem and disks stuff asking obo call ariel and leave message not there again not reply this account posting for friend
misc.forsale	hard drive for sale brand new seagate scsi hard drive access time full height size only leave mail interested
misc.forsale	decservers for sale have the following items that have further use for and will accept best offers either both brand new decserver decserver you are interested send your best offers thanks
misc.forsale	stereo lps for sale updated list 
misc.forsale	lps for sale 
misc.forsale	don deal with this man dana weick minh anh pham writes ripping people don deal with him please help looking for dana weick month ago made deal with him over the net was sell him some memory exchang for and cpu thought the deal was great went with dana weick las palmaritas phoenix the day time the evenings his email address weick master lds loral com update friends with now have not delt with him but did try call him and there answer his phone the call was made midnight est god knows what time that arizona try again later anybody want saturate his mail box michael sidman mike snowhite eeap cwru edu electrical engineering and applied physics case western reserve university cleveland not hell cleveland ohio but damn good simulation
misc.forsale	cordless telephone answering machine for sale have few just bought new phone answering machine combo really don need present setup both items are great condition prices not include shipping you have any questions contact mail call darryl toshiba cordless phone rubber antenna number memory answering machine remote operation message retrieval reset ogm change toll saving feature single tape operation
misc.forsale	pool table for sale article apr magnus acs ohio state edu kwmiller magnus acs ohio state edu kenneth miller writes ken well tell about your pool table andy andy belville taken long time but belvilad dunx ocs drexel edu fallen love with beautiful woman
misc.forsale	waterbed for sale article apr magnus acs ohio state edu kwmiller magnus acs ohio state edu kenneth miller writes ken again tell about ken andy andy belville taken long time but belvilad dunx ocs drexel edu fallen love with beautiful woman
misc.forsale	receiver amp have sherwood stereo receiver which received gift and would like sell already own system the sherwood model brand new still factory sealed this high quality surround sound amp watts watts dynamic headroom power very highly rated consumer reports march has audio inputs and pre amp and main amp connection jacks for added flexibility includes year factory warranty comes with remote asking reply subject receiver thanks pwr phys physics ucf edu
misc.forsale	laserjet iii for sale article innsm aludra usc edu yuanchie aludra usc edu roger hsu writes have laserjet iii for sale been printed for less than pages according the self test report asking for interested please mail thanks you can get new newer model for cheaper price thru mail order believed reincarnation former life
misc.forsale	don deal with this man dana weick well not going quote the message but anyhow mail fraud federal offence punnishable time and big what you can contact the local authorities arizona where this scammer resides inform them the situation you have proof the transaction that would also help and they should able take from there yeah this guy can get heavily penalized for this don think that just because you have never met cannot prosecuted take him hope not being too foreward inspiration comes baden sys bison those who baden inqmind bison seek the baden bari unknown
misc.forsale	notebook computer wanted have powerbook that over year old with warranty but perfect condition with original apple fax modem that would consider selling you for around get back with what you think would equitable arrangements have all manuals and system disks some software boxes and loaded but threw out the mac packaging origin nemesis jeff lombardi via swashnet node uucp scicom nemsis jeff lombardi internet jeff lombardi nemsis
misc.forsale	jeff mason auction the following comics are for auction the highest bid takes them all are near mint mint condition title minimum current alpha flight jim lee first work marvel aliens app aliens comics prnt may krism sold amazing spider man intro new green goblin amazing spider man appearance hobgoblin archer and armstrong frank miller smith layton avengers appearance factor bloodshot chromium cover bwsmith cover poster same sold cyberrad reintro cyberrad prestige silver edition daredevil frank miller art begins dark horse presents app concrete printing detective azrael appears intro cypher detective azrael appears harbinger appearance corps matthey sold corps incredible hulk app grey hulk since incredible hulk mcfarlane issue incredible hulk grey hulk series begins incredible hulk dale keown art hulk incredible hulk all new hulk prnt keown marvel comics presents wolverine silver surfer marvel presents charleston chew giveaway sam keith maxx limited ashcan copies exist blue cover signed advance copy exist new mutants mcfarlane cover app cable cameo new mutants app force new mutants annual liefeld art new mutants omega men appearance lobo omega men full lobo story power man iron fist appearance sabretooth power man iron fist appearance sabretooth simpsons comics and stories polybagged special spectacular spider man app new hobgoblin spider man special unicef giveaway venom star trek the next generation feb mini star trek the next generation oct comics trianglehead special limited edition autographed web spider man hobgoblin wolverine appear web spider man origin rose hobgoblin appears wolverine before claws battle with sabretooth wolverine sabretooth claims wolverine dad wolverine sabretooth proven not his dad wolverine sabretooth wolverine saga concludes wolverine mini series miller art wonder woman return animal man force signed liefeld bagged force card force signed liefeld bagged shatterstar card force signed liefeld bagged deadpool card force signed liefeld bagged sunspot gideon all comics are near mint mint condition are bagged shiny polypropylene bags and backed with white acid free boards shipping for one book for more than one book free you order large enough amount stuff willing haggle have thousands and thousands other comics please let know what you been looking for and maybe can help geoffrey mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
misc.forsale	looking for audio video computer furniture items unless otherwise noted mainly interested used items you have any the following for sale please contact email mbeck vtssi edu phone usmail michael beck progress street blacksburg virginia please give much info possible brand age condition etc wanted computer equip cheap tape drive pretty much any kind for ibm used memory expansion card for model memory for model new used high density disk drive external non computer equip bigger stereo vcr heads stereo receiver watts more dolby prologic surround sound capability bed full queen sized local offers only please desk local offers only please due shipping constraints
misc.forsale	zenith mhz hard disk zcm have the following machine for sale zenith mhz machine hard disk inch floppy drive floppy drive ram vga card zcm ftm flat tension mask vga color monitor flat screen non glare key keyboard serial ports parallel port original manuals that came with excellent condition best reasonable offer arkady altman aya csg rtsg mot com
misc.forsale	wanted lcd overhead mon wanted lcd overhead monitor for school cga looking for one fairly good shape but the school doesn have alot money spend you have one know one for sale please mail thanks jonathan jonathan evans commlink wariat org cleveland freenet edu
misc.forsale	trailer for sale trailer for sale hooper auto transport trailer flatbed ton gross weight capacity tandem axle suspension nylon tires comes with spare tire electric brakes stop lights turn signals loading ramps tilt for towing removable front steel fence removable stake sides for attaching sideboards tiedowns etc rigged for hauling automobile tractor equipment etc less than miles since new serialized with title and registration papers for sale original owner big hook end chain and web ratchet tiedown negotiable greg hering senior software analyst phone aeronautical systems msd fax intergraph corporation internet glhering ingr com huntsville mailstop
misc.forsale	bladerunner line skates for sale need sell two pairs bladerunner line skates don use them one size and one size they are less than year old and were used very little generally the corridor they are very good condition they sell lechmere for still have the boxes you want them and like get obo for them please respond mail michele matthews
misc.forsale	electronic music software winsong for windows like new just received music software winsong for windows and found that needs midi sound card sound blaster pro preferred have its fantastic features show don have the plan add sound card now putting here for sale listed april issue windows magazine and paid the total asking around with shipping included winsong for windows composer sequencer tape deck and juke box all one word processor for music you can write and edit cut paste move and copy etc notes and symbols play and print your composition graphical user interface works like multi track tape recorder musical tracks can arranged for play record rewind fast forward and stop plays music any midi compatible instrument piano guitar drum set saxophone clarinet organ and many you not need musician use this software the line manual handy for musicians great writing music not tedious and stifling aspect almost new one week old unregistered including shipping obo please reasonable
misc.forsale	wanted channel multitrack recorder cassette preferred scratch sce carleton writes would like buy channel multitrack recorder would prefer cassette machine such those made fostex tascam yamaha etc but would consider reel reel well write you know anything try used sound preston near gladstone and songbird music gladstone near bank street both have used multi tracks they are listed the phone book also see the yellow pages under musical equipment used
misc.forsale	wanted center channel pref infinity polk interested center channel for home theater have one and would interested selling one please let know thanks prefer ably infinity polk audio
misc.forsale	price slashed comics overstreet price guide updated april most comics here are priced below the overstreet price guide all comics are near mint mint condition title price alpha flight wolverine appears double size jim lee first work marvel amazing spider man peter david script human torch origin spiderman hobgoblin hobgoblin appears punisher hobgoblin appear kraven appears kraven appears todd mcfarlane hobgoblin green goblin venom appears todd mcfarlane art todd mcfarlane art silver sable paladin america sabretooth appears red skull captain america hulk appears last mcfarlane punisher appears punisher appears hobgoblin appears intro cletus kassady carnage venom appears venom appears pages punisher appears punisher appears punisher appears punisher appears app spider man holo annual annual solo venom story annual new warriors venom archer and armstrong frank miller smith layton avengers alpha flight appears pages new team alpha flight appears new team annual annual annual batman legends the dark knight blue cover batman shadow the bat still polybag batman versus predator prestige edition predator prestige edition batman batman year one trade paperback printing bloodshot chromium cover bwsmith cover poster daredevil origin bullseye ghost rider death head early app frank miller art begins deathstalker appears frank miller art elektra appearance bullseye bullseye kingpin appear punnisher appears frank miller art punnisher appears frank miller art punnisher appears frank miller art wolverine appears darkhawk spider man and hobgoblin appear dark horse presents app concrete printing concrete appears annual aliens appear dazzler men appear beast appears deathlok deathstroke the terminator printing defenders intro new defenders double size factor appears demon lobo appears lobo appears lobo appears eternal warrior miller cover fantastic four hulk the thing simonson art begins simonson art simonsom art simonson art simonson art art adams cover art wolverine ghost rider wolverine appear ghost rider wolverine appear pages simonson art simonson art simonson art fantastic four new warriors page anniversary issue annual flash superman flash race ghost rider may origin double size glow the dark cover print spider man hobgoblin cover and story spider man hobgoblin cover and story ghost rider and cable sam keith cover ghost rider and captain america fear guardians the galaxy prism foil cover harbinger appearance corps corps havok and wolvreine meltdown incredible hulk app grey hulk since mcfarlane issue grey hulk series begins keown art grey green hulk all new hulk prnt keown keown keown keown keown keown green foil stamped cover keown infinity gauntlet perez painted cover thanos thanos thanos justice league america justice league quarterly justice society america april kamandi origin kamandi kirby art kirby art kirby art kirby art last generation magnus robot fighter new direction logo begins marc spector moon knight ghost rider appears marvel comics presents wolverine silver surfer wolverine master kungfu wolverine master kungfu wolverine master kungfu wolverine daredevil wolverine hulk wolverine submariner wolverine man thing man thing ant man man thing colossus black panther shanna black panther nomad ron lim art black panther ron lim art black panther rob liefeld art cyclops ron lim art black panther ron lim art black panther ron lim art black panther nth man havok blk panther black panther havok hulk black panther havok black panther havok black panther havok black panther havok erik larsen excalibur wolverine rob liefeld wolverine wolverine hulk jackson guice deathlok poison thor scarlet witch mark texiera ghost rider mark texiera ghost rider mark texiera ghost rider mark texiera ghost rider smith weapon smith weapon smith weapon smith weapon smith weapon dracula smith weapon smith weapon smith weapon smith weapon smith weapon keith art and jae lee keith wolverine beast ghost rider cable wolverine ghost rider wolverine ghost rider maxx sam keith metropol ted mckeever mighty mouse moon knight nam frank castle punisher new mutants intro new warlock magus rob liefeld cable rob liefeld cable rob liefeld sabretooth appears rob liefeld sabretooth appears rob liefeld wolverine cable rob liefeld wolverine cable app deadpool gideon domino app force annual evolutionary war annual liefeld art new mutants annual annual app force summer special art adams art olympians mcfarlane omega men appearance lobo full lobo story annual power man iron fist appearance sabretooth appearance sabretooth power pack wolverine and sabretooth appear predator big game contains trading cards punisher wilce portacio punisher and captain america blood and glory punisher starlin script wrightson art starlin script wrightson art starlin script wrightson art punisher war journal jim lee art ghost rider appears ghost rider appears punisher war zone die cut cover ragman pat broderick origin ragman rocketeer special edition dave stevens art shadowman simpsons comics and stories polybagged special solar man the atom spectacular spider man punisher appears answer appears cloak and dagger appear cloak and dagger appear spot appears sabretooth appears sabretooth appears sabretooth appears octopus appears hobgoblin appears kraven appears kraven appears punisher appears punisher appears punisher appears app new hobgoblin origin lobo bros punisher spider man gets new powers cosmic spider man appears hologram hobgoblin annual mcfarlane story spider man gold edition direct sale regular edition green unbagged lizard calypso appear mcfarlane hobgoblin ghost rider appear hobgoblin ghost rider appear black costume returns black costume morbius appear sinister six hulk appear hulk deathlok appear origin retold hologram cover star trek the next generation feb mini star trek the next generation oct comics strange adventures dozens but varying high grades ask swamp thing john constantine appears annual tales the teen titans deathstroke app orogin terminator dark horse terminator secondary objectives terminator judgement day thor mutant massacre factor sabretooth app ghost rider appears ghost rider appears warlock and the infinity watch starlin scripts gamora thanos web spider man thunder appears magma appears origin rose hobgoblin appears hobgoblin appears green goblin super hero green goblin super hero rose hobgoblin story rose hobgoblin story rose hobgoblin story rose hobgoblin story hologram cover polybagged annual werewolf night appearance moon knight moon knight appears wolverine before claws battle with sabretooth sabretooth claims wolverine dad sabretooth proven not his dad sabretooth wolverine saga concludes wolverine mini series miller art wonder woman return animal man annual factor sabretooth appears sabretooth appears sabretooth appears tinction agenda jim lee cover whilce portacio art begins whilce portacio art last old team issue annual new warriors force appear force signed liefeld bagged force card signed liefeld bagged shatterstar card signed liefeld bagged deadpool card signed liefeld bagged sunspot gideon bagged cable card manowar all comics are near mint mint condition are bagged shiny polypropylene bags and backed with white acid free boards shipping for one book for more than one book free you order large enough amount stuff willing haggle have thousands and thousands other comics please let know what you been looking for and maybe can help some titles have posted here don list every issue have that title tried save space willing trade for other comics computer equipment video equipment audio equipment etc let know what you want trade geoffrey mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
misc.forsale	comics jeff strange comics dozens new titles tuesday april update this latest updated list strange bizzare odd independent comics that have for sale always most are cover price but some will actually look the guide see how much worth this week special youngspud spoof comics oldblood bragade spoof comics spoofs your favorite image comics both these comics for which includes shipping featuring tank girl adventurers aricel and adventure series the adventures luther arkwright after apocalypse alias blastpoint alien nation angryman animal man trade paperback issues anything but monday apache dick ape nation arion the immortal atlantis chronicles avengers annual avengers west coast back the future cartoon adaption badaxe bade biker orson batman shadow the bat polybag batman predator batman year one bats cats cadillacs beer nutz bizarre zone blackhawk book black scorpion blackthorne publishing flip book blood sword dynasty bob favorite comics boof caliber boris the bear boris the bear slaughters the teenage radioactive black belt big numbers blackhawk breathtaker butt biscuit cadillacs dinosaurs cage cap quick foozle cosmic odyssey crossroads cyberpunk dark horse presents desert storm send hussein hell dragon chiang dungeoneers elflord vol elftrek enchanter eclipse eye mogambo felix the cat fire team fish police flash gordon fly french ice full throttle gajit gang gambit gatekeeper get lost ghost rider captain america fear give liberty godzilla the greatest flash stories ever told green arrow ann greenhaven green hornet green lantern grey grimjack grimjack casefiles guardians the galaxy hammer god hamster vice harley rider haunt fear hercules unbound hollywood superstars saw legend icarus icon idol illuminatus country nam interface epic intruder tsr comics module invaders from home invaders from mars eternity jademan kung special jaguar jason monarch jeremiah birds prey john byrne next men judge dredd justice machine justy kicker inc kid cannibal eternity kobra labor force blackthorne last american epic last generation last the viking heroes legend the shield legend killer legend kamui lensman lethargic comics weakly light and darkness war living stone mountain loner lords the ultra realms lucifer fleetway secret weapon master maxwell mouse follies maze merlin meta first metal bikini eternity metropol miami mice marke bode midnite the rebel skunk mister monster true crime tree renagade tree tree quarterly mummy mummy curse aricel myth conceptions nathaniel dusk nathan impaler monster hunter night realm nemesis the warlock quality new beginning new frontier newstralia new triumph featuring northguard new york year zero night life caliber night zero fleetway ninja elite adventure nosferatu official buz sawyer official prince valiant olympians one open season open space oracle original black cat cow war pandora pill panorama pathways fantasy patrick rabbit penguin paris personality comics presents musics comics tour the beatles personality comics presents rolling stones pineapple army planet the apes portia prinz the glamazons psycho killers comic zone richard ramirez punisher and captain america blood and glory question red heat retief rhudiprrt the prince fur rivit blackthorne robocop the terminator rock and roll comics david bowie rockin rollin miner ants fate roger rabbit toontown runners rip off press sable first same slade robohunter samurai son death scarlet kiss scavengers quality scorched earth scout war shaman screen monsters sensational she hulk marvel graphic novel shatterpoint eternity shuriken shuriken cold steel silverfawn sinbad adventure book the four trials sisterhood steel skreemer slaine slash maraud song the cid caliber sonic disrupters space ark spellbinders quality spider spider man special venom unicef giveaway spider man and power pack giveaway spoof spawn spoof george stalkers epic stark future aricel starriors steed mrs peel straw men all american street wolf super shark humanoids survivors swords shar pei syphons tales from the aniverse tales ordinary madness tales the green hornet tales the jackalope thundersaur tomb dracula torrid affairs toxic avenger transmutation ike garuda trekker trouble with tigers antarctic twilight man first showcase ufo alien contact comic zone ultra klutz unicorn isle valkyrie anne rice interview with vampire anne rice vampire companion anne rice vampire lestat venus wars video jack violent cases wacky squirrel summer fun special wanderers war warheads warlock aricel wasteland web weird wizards the last resort world without end terminators zell sworddancer zorro most comics are near mint mint condition are bagged shiny polypropylene bags and backed with white acid free boards shipping for one book for more than one book free you order large enough amount stuff willing haggle have thousands and thousands other comics please let know what you been looking for and maybe can help will trade for other comics well computer equipment video equipment etc let know what you want trade geoffrey mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
misc.forsale	radius radius accelerated graphics adaptor supports multiple resolutions and allows the fly changing resolution bit depth msrp street price your price best offer over scott
misc.forsale	microcom microporte pocket modem for sale hpcc comp dcom modems bourman hpcc corp com bob bourman apr hpcc comp dcom modems bourman hpcc corp com bob bourman apr for sale kbps microcom microporte pocket modem new list price rechargeable battery pack modem auto logon password security uucp and kermit support remote access dtla cellular connection mnp mnp error correction mnp bis data compression bell bis microcom turbo mode dte bps dce speed pin adapter cable power transformer make offer bob bourman mail bourman corp com
rec.autos	auto air conditioning without freon article hvx news cso uiuc edu tspila uxa cso uiuc edu tim spila romulan writes article apr ntuix ntu mgqlu ntuix ntu max writes are working gas solid adsorption air con system for auto applications this kind system the energy for regenerating the adsorbent from the exhaust gas anyone interested this mail email follow this thread may have discussion prospects this technology bite how this supposed work tim better still years ago they demonstrated cold air system which only used air was called rovax the unit worked very well the short coming was the seal technology where today
rec.autos	auto air conditioning without freon rovax tobias convex com allen tobias writes better still years ago they demonstrated cold air system which only used air was called rovax the unit worked very well the short coming was the seal technology where today recall from reading posts here while back rovax rovacs died because was larger and noisier than the competing cheap systems day probably case bad timing think the system would have better chance today now that systems are death row but investors may hard come second time jon hacker get the march beta rom caltech pasadena for call ibm hacker tumbler ridge caltech edu read about comp beta
rec.autos	auto air conditioning without freon actually simple principle porous adsorbents like zeolite and activated carbon can adsorb gases evaporated from the adsorbate water methanol etc giving the cooling effect upon being heated the gas saturated adsorbent bed will give off the gases which are then condensed this forms the adsorption refrigeration cycle the only problem that the cop very low max max phd internet mgqlu ntu division thermal enginerring bitnet mgqlu ntuvax bitnet school mpe nanyang technological university phone nanyang avenue singapore fax
rec.autos	dealer cheated with wrong odometer reading need help don know about where you are but here california false representation odometer readings criminal felony you can substantiate this you need report that dealer the local authorities you should consult with lawyer tell you what civil action you can take well keep mind that you will have prove that the dealer was aware the change the dashboard brian donnell
rec.autos	questions about insurance companies esp geico article apr julian uwo wlsmith valve heart rri uwo wayne smith writes article mimsy umd edu davew umd edu david wonnacott writes considering switching geico insurance but have heard that they not assign specific agent for each policy claim was worried that this might real pain when you make claim have also heard that they try get rid you you have accident read this group that geico has funded the purchasing radar guns police depts not sure where geico has purchased radar guns several states know they have done here have also heard horror stories about people that have been insured geico for years and then had accident and were immediately dropped and once you been dropped any insruance company you become labled high risk and end forking out times what you should for insurance suggestion stay where you are shop around but stay away from geico jeff
rec.autos	new talon would also interested finding out about the talon and suspect that many other people would interested too let get some responses the net the question again does anyone have any info the eagle talon mitsubishi eclipse plymouth laser know that the old talon was based the mitsubishi galant and that japan twin turbo galant has been released anyway any info the talon would appreciated steve hui
rec.autos	dirty diesels article nataraja opal nataraja rtsg mot com kumaravel natarajan writes heard the diesels are considered cleaner burning than gas engines because the emit less carbon monoxide hydrocarbons and oxides nitrogen nox but they can put out lot particulate matter heard something about legislation being discussed clean diesel emissions there anything the works install scrubbers for diesels how about the feasibility installing them trucks and cars would any different than catylitic converter assume easier since removing particulate matter instead converting gasses let hear people opinions vel natarajan nataraja rtsg mot com motorola cellular arlington hts this really bugs the emissions diesels are the cleanest any vechicle but they are considered polluting that they are banned passenger cars california what bunch crap diesel the fuel choice for enviromental benefit europe while here illegal for the same reason the particulates are nothing but carbon they are just annoyance worst nothing beats the diesel cycle for efficiency and emissions torque engine durability also cheaper horace dediu gte laboratories sylvan road internet hdediu gte com waltham
rec.autos	said nissan altima best seller spiros triantafyllopoulos kocrsv delcoelect com wrote but waiiiiiit isn nissan officially registering the car far government paperwork goes nissan stanza altima avoid costly and lengthy paperwork read this the net while ago and someone actually may have said there little stanza logo the altima somewhere just bought altima and like very much and yes there little stanza logo ever discretely placed the trunk the altima emblazoned big silver letters but the itsy bitsy stanza shunted the far left the trunk lid you can only see you get close the car and know where look very inconspicuous fact first clue that this was stanza was that the owners manual called the car nissan stanza altima anybody know why nissan did this way mark goldsworthy
rec.autos	 article uwoj usenet ucs indiana edu mliggett silver ucs indiana edu matthew liggett writes apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes curious about knowing which commericial cars today have engines don know any legend lexus infiniti dozens others including common cars like the toyota camry option don know any mustang camaros firebirds some mercedes lexus acura legend infiniti lincoln mark viii some cadillacs and other luxury autos dodge viper jaguar xjs please add the list thanks ssave ole cdac com mliggett silver ucs indiana edu mliggett iugold bitnet junk collector toys kid antiauthoritarian and fan frogs iguanas and other herps cut here for signature balaji ramanathan institute transportation studies don believe luck university california irvine rely
rec.autos	domestic content japan joint ventures does anyone know what the domestic content any these geo prizm eagle talon ford probe all are made the but have been told they contain mostly foreign parts please follow directly post the findings the net there interest thanks tim newman newman cps msu edu
rec.autos	noisy engine eliot right about liter engine the second and last generation but the original guy did not indicate the year his first generation car like has liter engine perhaps same engine with supercharger the sound describes common any older toyota engine ever heard don know the relevance his observations about oil changes simply makes noise not all that annoying mind you but you hear well when the engine right behind your left ear mike sorry bout that mine model non turbo with abs and revised suspension whatever revised means australia always seem get the versions without extras which the europeans and americans get standard query why does the noise get noticeably louder about months after oil change just find bit wierd that this happens the oil using mobil the engine the version model gets noiser the older the oil only guessing its not annoyingly distressing anything but just slightly puzzling puzzled
rec.autos	wife wants convertible previous article twetzel ucs indiana edu tom wetzel says article tth usenet ins cwru edu andrew spencer aas cwru edu writes well actually didn but pretend the real author this query has his name tacked here wife has informed that she wants convertible for her next car was about recommend you consider targa top over convertible but drew made the point very well when wife and were our did the convertible thing with triumphs now our mid still appreciate the open air but prefer targa types there much less wind noise objects papers blowing around foreign objects getting into the car and one still has almost all the advantages the convertible tom while being mentioned personally prefer the moonroof sunroof top targa thing well simply don like cloth tops nor the extra insurance nor the color matching alot companies chose convertible mazda just like the way they look have black with color matched black top they look good cabriolet they suberb job matching colors too also last year for them collector item mustang droptop they look too know this doesn help but thought anyway good luck your wife and you drew
rec.autos	manual shift bigots previous article dwjz bnr doug zolmer says article apr rtsg mot com kissane black berkeley edu john kissane writes matter interest does anyone know why autos are popular the while here europe they are rare just wondering many our cities there are traffic signals every feet unsynchronised course well here ottawa anyway and the roads are congested that shifting manually real pain the left foot also most canadians are too stupid learn how shift manually gee gotta ordinate two feet the clutch brake and accelerator and gotta steer shift and operate the signals optional and radio with two hands duh agree wholeheartedly can done also most north american made cars come with the automatic standard equipment why bother with manual when the car can shift for you for addition money not sure about there but here the manuals are quite often the standard equipment course finding car with one might hard but you read the sticker the window there usally additional tacked for that lousy tranny you actually are paying more just that sometimes hard find one that equipped standard this applies most cars but not the luxoyachts caddilac licolns etc drew
rec.autos	 article apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes curious about knowing which commericial cars today have engines don know any kidding right corvette several mbz and bmw mustang etc etc there lot them you from european site kenny kenny crudup att kenny mvuts att com
rec.autos	opel owners article news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes newsgroups rec autos path llpost mit edu mit edu uhog mit edu wupost howland reston ans net cso uiuc edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu cka from cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc subject opel owners date tue apr gmt message news cso uiuc edu references gibbonsa sfu sxi news cso uiuc edu apr cactus org sender usenet news cso uiuc edu net noise owner organization university illinois urbana lines boyle cactus org craig boyle writes article sxi news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu darren gibbons writes looking for information opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth not entirely sure but two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking friend has one sitting his yard really nice condition body wise but transmission has seized him hasn run for while does anyone have any info these cars the engine compartment looks really tight work but fine shape and quite interested thanks darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu this would the manta would not sold through buick dealers the mid the price leader sounds lot more like opel guess that this the same chassis the kadett rather than the bigger manta but could easily wrong think the later kadett were sold here buick opels craig think the manta the european name for the pretty sure that the only kadett sold here were are the pontiac lemans think the just early mid manta chintan amin the university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area the was based the kadette chassis was built model years the manta came out the model year and was seat coupe matthew singer mit lincoln laboratory wood street singer mit edu lexington
rec.autos	opel owners article apr convex com maynard convex com mark maynard writes newsgroups rec autos path llpost mit edu mit edu ames agate howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech swrinde dptspd tamsun tamu edu news utdallas edu convex convex maynard from maynard convex com mark maynard subject opel owners message apr convex com sender mark maynard nntp posting host trojan convex com organization convex computer corporation richardson usa references gibbonsa sfu sxi news cso uiuc edu distribution rec autos date tue apr gmt disclaimer this message was written user convex computer corp the opinions expressed are those the user and not necessarily those convex lines article sxi news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu darren gibbons writes looking for information opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth not entirely sure but two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking gibbonsa sfu this would the manta would not sold through buick dealers the mid the price leader chintan amin sounds more like opel neat cars fun drive sold through buick from through remember correctly believe was that there were some engine mods made such that parts were not interchangeable with the older models parts are thus much harder come for the later models parts general are not too difficult find one time whitney carried some stuff including brand new not remfg long block either kharman ghia hmm that spelling looks hosed will next project mark they lowered the engine compression that would run regular gas not mention the addition emission controls the also added pop out rear quarter windows alot parts are available for the from small cars and used from bill daley opel parts matthew singer mit lincoln laboratory wood street singer mit edu lexington
rec.autos	questions about insurance companies esp geico article mimsy umd edu davew umd edu david wonnacott writes considering switching geico insurance but have heard that they not assign specific agent for each policy claim was worried that this might real pain when you make claim have also heard that they try get rid you you have accident read this group that geico has funded the purchasing radar guns police depts not sure where
rec.autos	 previous article marshatt feserve purdue edu zauberer says article apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes curious about knowing which commericial cars today have engines don know any legend don know any are you serious try the deep breath mustang camaro optional nearly every truck ever built corvettes caprices bmw caddie eldorado fleetwood seville infiniti jeep grand cherokee lexus lexus lincon mark viii town car sel and the mercury grand marquis name few jaguar xjs how about viper must one somewhere believe bugatti coming has out one something like turbos and mucho macho one cool price too heard any rate the point pretty sure there indeed one production tho rather limited drew
rec.autos	nissan nomenclature was manual shift bigots wanted previous article jkjec westminster shazad barlas says the best auto shifters the street and not the track are those from porsche they wont change you floor the gas during turn few years back was auto you guys call without turbo and was going round corner floored and next thing know was pointing backwards the other drivers seemed quite amused shaz you are sure that what you call call just curious also have nissan predacessor the called which came turbo and nonturbo but don think ever had turbo just curious btw the that matters drew
rec.autos	opel owners mliggett silver ucs indiana edu matthew liggett writes news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes boyle cactus org craig boyle writes article sxi news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu darren gibbons writes looking for information opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth not entirely sure but two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking friend has one sitting his yard really nice condition body wise but transmission has seized him hasn run for while does anyone have any info these cars the engine compartment looks really tight work but fine shape and quite interested thanks darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu this would the manta would not sold through buick dealers the mid the price leader sounds lot more like opel guess that this the same chassis the kadett rather than the bigger manta but could easily wrong think the later kadett were sold here buick opels craig think the manta the european name for the pretty sure that the only kadett sold here were are the pontiac lemans think the just early mid manta chintan amin the university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area bzzt the manta was two door sedan the had engine was sometimes referred opel manta are also hot and fun cars too mliggett silver ucs indiana edu mliggett iugold bitnet junk collector toys kid antiauthoritarian and fan frogs iguanas and other herps funny the manta over europe look surprisingly like the opel alluded the original poster chintan amin the university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	opel owners matmcinn nuscc nus matthew macintyre the national university senegal writes the way what people think about the opel calibra want one and don want move europe buy one please make the next pontiac car course have wait till buy chintan amin the university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	alternative fuel vehicles here press release from the department energy energy secretary hails president plan for alternative fuel vehicles national desk environment and energy reporters contact larry hart the department energy washington april secretary energy hazel leary today said president clinton executive order alternative fuels will make the federal government driving force behind efforts increase the availability both alternative fuel vehicles and fuel supplies president clinton signed the order today which calls for federal purchases alternative fuel vehicles numbers over the next three years least percent higher than those called for the energy policy act president clinton also announced that texas land commissioner gary mauro will head the federal fleet conversion task force advise leary implementation the executive order delighted that will working with gary mauro make this happen leary said land commissioner gary mauro has helped make texas national leader converting the state fleet alternative fuels and has been tireless proponent natural gas vehicles speeches across the country the task force issue report within days recommending plan and schedule implementation the department energy and all government must lead example the option alternative fuels going become practical affordable choice for fleet owners across the country leary said increased use domestically produced alternative fuels means reducing pollution while creating jobs believe that energy efficiency protecting the environment and healthy economy are complimentary goals leary said that plans call for the department energy coordinate the agencies five year purchase plans help with funding for extra purchase conversion costs and work with gsa encourage development the fuel infrastructure needed make fleet conversions practical under the order the department energy will also working with states local governments and industry coordinate vehicle purchases and encourage manufacturers and fuel suppliers make alternative fuel vehicles and alternative fuels more widely available canada remote systems toronto ontario
rec.autos	hyundai sonata opinions info wanted like hear stories experiences with the hyundai sonata know consumer reports has trashed them but the people know that have them swear them they also haven had the problems with them that consumer reports claims haven driven one yet have driven hyundai elantra which consumer reports also trashed and was very impressed with the local hyundai dealership haggle policy offering elantra gls power moonroof for they also have sonata base sunroof for know preference for sonata gls sunroof and spd automatic decide which engine prefer after test driving both the cyl and the the sonata also offering rebate hmmm that another question the following scenario the appropriate manner handle negotiation make offer subtract rebate from offer talk trade subtract trade from offer get final price rhonda gaines systems network administrator internet gaines fibercom com fibercom inc box uucp uunet fibercom gaines roanoke fax phone
rec.autos	nissan nomenclature was manual shift bigots wanted aas cwru edu andrew spencer writes you are sure that what you call call just curious also have nissan predacessor the called which came turbo and nonturbo but don think ever had turbo just curious btw the that matters drew what currently know the known elsewhere graham thomas blah blah blah blah blah georgia institute technology blah blah blah blah blah internet grahamt oit gatech edu blah blah blah blah blah
rec.autos	noisy engine article usenet ins cwru edu aas cwru edu andrew spencer writes nice theory too bad the never came with four cylinder over liters more like did they were the nonturbo some such foot mouth again drew the first generation were which were very smooth real surprised the original poster was talking about generation car the second generation cars were for the non turbo and for the turbo drove the non turbo and calling unpleasant kind also understand that anyone using balancing shafts four cylinders must pay saab royalty for using their patented design like porsche wrong and wrong mitsubishi owns the patent which has since expired which why everybody with shred integrity putting balance shafts into their big the notable exception nissan and only for the market suckers guess need write and start telling them publish graphs for engine vibration over rpm then you see usenet discussions the form engine has peak vibrations less than engine therefore engine better than engine eliot
rec.autos	car saftey important course car safety important for one used think that these guys are going way ott with their airtbags sorry del button dont work and side impact bars and crash zones and the list goes just tpo make the car heavbier and all its penalties bur recently had little accident bike and not bad john but after the accident made realizer should have worn helmet mom always insistede should was more concerned about hair style few days agi read report which the old rea rea shit renault had accident and its roof caved inwards and crushed the occupents heads
rec.autos	questions about insurance companies esp geico article unfy dove nist gov keys starchild ncsl nist gov lawrence keys writes article murdoch acc virginia edu jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister writes article apr julian uwo wlsmith valve heart rri uwo wayne smith writes article mimsy umd edu davew umd edu david wonnacott writes considering switching geico insurance but have heard that they not assign specific agent for each policy claim was worried that this might real pain when you make claim have also heard that they try get rid you you have accident don worry about this they drop you like hot potato after you make claim they just make filing the claim pain but will end when they leave you the lurch read this group that geico has funded the purchasing radar guns police depts not sure where more than that geico funded the company that developed lidar when locals showed reluctance buy the units geico started giving them away know they given units the florida highway patrol county sheriff and some local governments the real question why this the hook geico and other ins can tell which drivers represent risk this determination they can make after you receive speeding ticket from one geico lidar units most drivers not represent increased risk even after ticket two but this gives them the opportunity raise rates for equal risk called extra profits they also know how silly the nsl and how almost universally ignored driving excess the nsl gets you ticket increase your rates points your license but doesn make you riskier driver insure like the sound this like the people who thought the scheme geico unless you have some driving history problems you usually better with one the major companies and stay there you get long term customer discounts your premiums now about the your premium that paid commission that another story for another day
rec.autos	questions about insurance companies esp geico bob excellent the point and correct spread the word
rec.autos	lexus and infiniti first off the correct spelling nissan luxury automobile division infiniti not infinity would also like clear the question what kind engines power lexus and infiniti automobiles since person had remarked earlier posts that most lexus and infiniti models had engines while the same time saying that several each manufacturer used engines lexus infiniti inline must admit that cannot remeber for sure here hope this helps bsb
rec.autos	borgward question husband used own borgwards haven seen any for long time they were really good cars does ayone out there know anything about them now heard they were being made mexico but course they wouldn the original german that even true when been mexico haven seen any loved ours even tho they were ugly they had names one was humphrey borgward
rec.autos	the mustang article xtp mtb murdoch acc virginia edu jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister writes article apr virginia edu jmm virginia edu the blade runner writes just have got remind all you that this yes that right somtime this fall ford the granddaddy cars will introducing all new mega cool way too fast for accord drivers mustang supposed streamlined looking similar the mach iii concept car ford came out with around january can wait anyone out there hear anything about recently everything read correct ford doing nothing but skinning the existing mustang with minor suspension modifications and the pictures seen indicate they didn very good job the new mustang nothing but cycle year old car jeff gee already yes will still the fox program chasis anything that will different the new car far mechanical unknown the suspension will most likely changed well the drive drain from what has been printed there clear idea what will done some say will have the modular and others the current small block just have wait and see also far styling goes from what seen good return tradition scoop the sides and roof line much like fastback
rec.autos	likelihood radio being stolen the question not whether your radio will stolen the question when your radio will stolen tommy reingold bell labs holmdel tommy boole att com att boole tommy
rec.autos	service rip off went place called american car care centers check car for leak after checking was told that there leak the compressor seal the end addition the labor for the check was charged dollars for pound freon although they evacuated afterwards because the leak first fair for him charge for pound freon plus tax second what can about this this unfair albert
rec.autos	rush was too fast article apr csa lbl gov jtchew csa lbl gov absurdum per aspera writes wharf wrat rites they were designed for speeds upwards forget the exact spec but for military vehicles that dodge powerwagon not ford taurus ever once while you still see reference the super slab system interstate and defense highways but whether the military has much anything that goes the road another matter few their most whomped diesel trucks maybe load permitting the military surplus stuff driven jeep classic willys kaiser amc pre independent suspension and power wagons slant crew cab pickup actually heard that some abrams tank commanders take the governers off their turbine engines and can acheive mph paved road never seen myself but believe weren exactly congenial highway speeds and wouldn swear any them would except bedload semi stuff deleted joe just another personal opinion from the people republic berkeley mustang bob pitas ush bpita ctp com ned epping cambridge geddy lee yyz disclaimer these opinions are mine obviously since they end with sig
rec.autos	warning please read article agate berkeley edu anarres berkeley edu brian harvey writes rfelix netcom com robbie felix writes how about the thousands kind teenagers who volunteer local agencies help children seniors the homeless hear hear thanks robbie you also don read that much about violence against teenagers such george bush burying alive tens thousands unarmed iraqi year olds who were trying surrender with bulldozers the other hand think true without singling out teenagers for blame that violence more socially acceptable than used those who like discourage violence have plenty work with people all ages well this isn the right group for this but have say that don think violence any more socially acceptable now any means how can you say that when used have pistol toting gunslingers heros even gangland thugs being considered romantic you think our great grandparent got yelled their parents for playing cowboys and indians don think that behavior was somewhat encouraged back then fact think the only difference between now and then that nowadays when some teenager kills another one classroom california here about the same day back the old days they never hear about something like that period sorry about posting rec autos but this where came mustang bob pitas ush bpita ctp com ned epping cambridge geddy lee yyz disclaimer these opinions are mine obviously since they end with sig
rec.autos	 article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes the subarus all use degree vees their engines degree gotta love eliot
rec.autos	locking lugnuts tire rebalance rec autos mas skcla monsanto com writes xif you put locking lugnut your tires you need have your xtires rebalanced xjohn mas mail address mas skcla monsanto com since the wheel tire balanced off the car the lugnuts are not normally involved how would they that would think that since the lugs are close the center rotation any slight difference weight between normal lugnut and locking one would not have any noticable effect the balance could wrong friday afternoon mack costello mcostell oasys navy mil code formerly david taylor model basin carderock division nswc bethesda phone
rec.autos	 article nataraja geode nataraja rtsg mot com kumaravel natarajan writes mliggett silver ucs indiana edu matthew liggett writes apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes curious about knowing which commericial cars today have engines don know any ditto seems that heard that some early saabs were cycle then again who could possibly care legend what most any the don know any mustang camaros firebirds some mercedes lexus infinity jaguar xjs some mercedes bmw lamborghini countach lamborghini diablo please add the list vel natarajan nataraja rtsg mot com motorola cellular arlington hts
rec.autos	information needed this first time post this news group now days have stucked certain problem have mazda non turbo fuel injection there engine warning signal the dash board while driving this signal turns but not always what does this mean the manual they say authorized mazda dealer really good idea don you think wanna know how the engine warning signal comes anybody out there who can give same advice authorized mazda dealer can give youjip won yjwon umn edu
rec.autos	lexus and infiniti article apr msus msus edu tigger stcloud msus edu writes first off the correct spelling nissan luxury automobile division infiniti not infinity who cares about typos these meaningless synthetic names the cars were named after person honda more respectful lexus wrong the and use straight sixes while the uses only giant like toyota can afford have both and inline its lineup but that won last for long eliot
rec.autos	help with buick regal article wykp ulowell ulowell edu gvahe ulowell edu gerry vahe writes hhheeelllppp going crazy have buick regal with over miles just recently when over bump any size the rear drivers side car feels like there something hitting the floor board the noise ampli fied when going around corner when there less weight above the tire hit bump had the whole brake drum off today checked under the car see muffler was hitting something and cant seem find anything all eve rything seems tight any ideas could bee shock absorber there any way can tell anything will help and greatly appreciated gerry check out the shocks where they mount both ends you have the type that have loop from lack better term and bolt like piece sticking through there should rubber bushing between the loop and the bolt there crushed and allowing metal metal contact hope you can make some sense this good luck
rec.autos	the mustang article gjg bgsu edu gjg andy bgsu edu greg gantzer writes article apr virginia edu jmm virginia edu the blade runner wrote just have got remind all you that this yes that right somtime this fall ford the granddaddy cars will introducing all new mega cool way too fast for accord drivers mustang supposed streamlined looking similar the mach iii concept car ford came out with around january can wait anyone out there hear anything about recently yeah looks like shit nothing like the mach iii check out the latest issue popular mechanics they have picture one looks like cross between dodge daytona and eagle talon only much uglier this car looks like should have been produced not pick that and have look maybe the picture there not the actual car but prototype saw the mach iii and was not all that impressed looked way too japanese for the tear drop headlights reminded nissan glad didn hold out for the and bought maybe they work the design little bit listen consumers and come out with nice looking always takes while work out the kinks new design the body camaro firebirds btw the new camaros look like shit too keath milligan software engineer videotelecom corporation austin texas jkm vtel com reaper wixer bga com try real time communications telnet wixer bga com
rec.autos	improvements automatic transmissions article weqe news rich bnr herling crchh nosubdomain nodomain brent herling writes article apr westminster jkjec westminster shazad barlas writes just wanted know wheelspin auto you keep the gear gas then stick the gear never tried this but sure works but does this screw the autobox having bit debate about here yes the neutral slam know that tested the old and shifting from reverse forward gears repeatedly while holding the engine high rpms the units hold incredibly well this also the recommended technique rock stuck vehicle out the mud think the hydraulics are the task but the mechanicals the driveline may object breaking something ericy agree about the durability the old trannies from while never intentionally slamed firebird conv into gear would leave the trannie low read grab hold hit the pedal and once the tires grabbed take off when reached about mph the turbo auto would shift read super and leave about foot double stripped rubber the ground most everyone knew the time was quite impressed with peeling out mph the trannie held just fine motor mounts would last about year until tied the motor down with large chains yea fyi pontiac bored over large valve heads holley spread bore crain blazer cam don remember the specs positrac hooker headers dual exhaust get this conv leather seats power windows power top cruise etc yea also pulled the cocktail shakers weights from the front and removed the lead pellet from the accelerator pedal damn regulations how miss that car under sec and about mpg well don miss the mpg front wheels off the ground with three quick jabs the pedal bent pushrods stripped rocker studs every months really wonder what kind rev was turning tach improvements automatic transmissions anyone seen one these lately buy back sec open top brent the only one that smells little caca del toro here
rec.autos	vascar know this the wrong place post this but couldn find any relevant newsgroups area for those you who are from where vascar where the cops measure your speed from the time takes you cross the distance between two white lines the road right most commonly used especially interested the pittsburgh area specific locations prior experiences possible for those and non they use vascar your state most common rural city highway areas etc what interested mainly where can speed with the least risk being caught you can always detect radar but there way fight vascar unless you know where all the white lines are thanks lot arun jayakumar
rec.autos	honda crx honda crx white blue int original owner miles mostly highway recent tune new battery oil changed every miles kenwood high power cassette receiver spkrs best reasonable offer interested please mail goose ftp com call after ask for kevin
rec.autos	best radar detector valentine had valentine for about months now and agree that the best det ector available the point here trust and reliability been able ust the valentine more than any other detector owend the valentine that there moderate strong radar source front then than likely speed trap with other detectors gotten many falses that begun ignore someo the warnings because didn want drive like had one foot the brake and one the gas pedal that directional indicator really really helps plus more info almost alwa better than less info matter how smart radar detectors get the human ain usually smarter going make decisio based information hand want all the info can get plus you divide the overall streng the radar signal the number bogeys reported you find that each bogey pretty weak and therefore not radar threat with other detectors just get one strong warning logic may faulty this but think works okay although must admit that haven really noticed the reflection problem one radar souce thomas
rec.autos	saturn extended warranty agree with gaia even though the saturn has proved very reliable car far little money spent now worth the peace mind opinion getting the powertrain warranty enough case that cause anything that needed repairing the interior sunroof windows doors etc could myself just didn want mess with the engine and such plus think the extra years hour roadside assistance must worthe meting opted for the year plan for thomas
rec.autos	toyota camry toyota camry sedan power windows and locks miles asking pls call send mail this account
rec.autos	rush was too fast boyle cactus org craig boyle wrote marshatt feserve purdue edu zauberer writes wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes remember roads america are not designed for speeds above meaning they would safe roads like the autobahn are smoother straiter wider and slightly banked well that news before the speed limit texas highways was the speed limit the new jersey turnpike was there were speed limits nevada montana guess wasn clear enough here said the roads were designed for speeds and still safe the current will add saftey margin actually the roads were designated safe when they were built the taking into account the kinds cars then available the number would much higher today because the cars tires and just about everything else has imprivoved lot except the drivers tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet like herd performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult redirect awe inspiring entertaining and source mind boggling amounts excrement when you least expect gene spafford
rec.autos	lexus and infiniti article apr msus msus edu tigger stcloud msus edu writes first off the correct spelling nissan luxury automobile division infiniti not infinity would also like clear the question what kind engines power lexus and infiniti automobiles since person had remarked earlier posts that most lexus and infiniti models had engines while the same time saying that several each manufacturer used engines lexus the and have inline infiniti inline must admit that cannot remeber for sure here inline correct hope this helps bsb keith
rec.autos	val bel sti was best radar detector article apr convex com tobias convex com allen tobias wrote live the backyard the folks who make the stalker radar system the valentine has saved many many many times from the stealth revenue enhancement traps the local area have had all the major brand detectors and imho nothing else even comes close the hadn heard the valentine before car driver and other auto magazines recommend bel detectors was considering their latest the sti which picks super wideband and laser well also avoids radar detector detectors although really don care about this since doubt driving virginia anytime soon have any other states also made detectors iilegal how does the valentine compare with the bel products brian donnell
rec.autos	engines pwe slipknot mit edu pwe slipknot mit edu paul emery writes the subject the ford the used engines exstensively their ford transit vans this brings back memory from the seventies played band the time and for something like pounds four bought tranny cart the gear around was terrible shape cosmetically because last owner was pig farmer spent days cleaning and putting partition and more seating but til the day died everytime you turned the fan the defroster dried pig shit came flying out the vents back the engine remember right was and that thing could haul could fill with equipment and people and went like bat out hell course there were pollution controls the engine and the gas was leaded and higher octane than get now when the mechanical fuel pump quit put electric one from morris minor that worked great fond memories saab sonnet iii too believe pwe slipknot mit edu like own squadron tanks paul emery ron nasty the rutles magnet lab cambridge mass costellobeatlesspinaltapfawltytowersmuttsavengersstartrek tngenglandrutles mliggett silver ucs indiana edu mliggett iugold bitnet junk collector toys kid antiauthoritarian and fan frogs iguanas and other herps
rec.autos	thanks nova advice want thank all the people that responded post few weeks ago about buying chev nova with over decided buy the car and have had for about month replaced the front brake pads and changed the oil far problems have surfaced received many suggestions and encouragement this purchase and figured late thank you was better than none thanks all jim
rec.autos	 apr tulane edu finnegan nrlssc navy mil writes article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes the subarus all use degree vees their engines eliot wouldn that make them would they really henceforth referred underscore horizontally opposed boxer great idea actually smooth running low center gravity also used some honda gullwings corvairs porsches others kenneth finnegan nrlssc navy mil mliggett silver ucs indiana edu mliggett iugold bitnet junk collector toys kid antiauthoritarian and fan frogs iguanas and other herps
rec.autos	wife wants convertible article unfj usenet ucs indiana edu tom wetzel twetzel ucs indiana edu writes article tth usenet ins cwru edu andrew spencer aas cwru edu writes wife has informed that she wants convertible for her next car was about recommend you consider targa top over convertible but drew made the point very well when wife and were our did the convertible thing with triumphs now our mid still appreciate the open air but prefer targa types there much less wind noise objects papers blowing around foreign objects getting into the car and one still has almost all the advantages the convertible last car had tops big tops current car convertible imho you after that convertible feel tops open top sunroofs moonroofs whatever just don cut there substitute for convertible you not after that sun beating down you the wind your hair and teeth the flopsum and jetsum getting the car and the noises associated with the whooshing the wind you not after that convertible feel with something with least hole above the driver but don call convertible and wonder how those targa tops would compare against roll bar rollover situation course rather not test car too early convertible accept substitute tonya rather sailing flynn sunrise blvd lauderdale let just punch through that uucp uunet gould tflynn sand bar crew natty dread internet tflynn encore com
rec.autos	wife wants convertible and here two cents the best convertible for the money imo the miata yes small but you buying second car hope you don need the cargo room big car got enough power for fun rwd like sports car ought gonna regret that and the top while manual operates like dream seconds and one hand lower and not much longer raise the targa type cars are nice but they not real convertibles ken warren the secrets good life are early nights good food excercise and clean living mail kenw netaxs com but the secrets happy life are late nights wild parties kinky sex and junk food
rec.autos	mercury villager minivan good buy came across this interesting information local public library while researching minivans the dealer price and the retail price for minivan thinking about purchasing someone told that the number for base price was slightly lower than the current price but this should still give you some idea about pricing and how much you can negotiate mercury villager dealer retail base price air conditioning rear defroster calif emissions passenger seating radio cassette std std automatic transmission std std anti lock brakes std std destination the total dealer cost the total retail price nissan quest dealer retail base price air conditioning std std rear defroster std std calif emissions passenger seating std std cassette std std automatic transmission std std anti lock brakes destination the total dealer cost the total retail price
rec.autos	improvements automatic transmissions shazad barlas jkjec westminster wrote wheelspin auto you keep the gear gas then stick the gear never tried this but sure works but does this screw the autobox having bit debate about here known more people leave their rear ends pieces doing this especially they have reasonable power transmit and good traction the road surface you better off powerbraking wes fujii real motor oldsmobile rocket hurst this not the new generation olds wes banzai fujii olds boise idaho wesf hpdmd boi com
rec.autos	locking lugnuts tire rebalance article apr skcla monsanto com mas skcla monsanto com writes you put locking lugnut your tires you need have your tires rebalanced john mas mail address mas skcla monsanto com well depends what kind locking lugnuts you have previous car had locking lugnuts that weighed about more than the others the locking lugnuts were factory equipment and according the factory service manual after tire balancing the technician mechanic was supposed put counterweight the rim opposite the locking nut always had vibration problems with those stupid lugnuts since one ever did the service correctly eventually got rid the locking lugnuts and replaced them with the standard lugnuts unfortunately found out about the counterweighting technique months after got rid the locking nuts present car saturn has locking lugnuts that bought the dealer and are made specifically for the saturn they have been made exactly the same weight the non locking lugnuts said the package and verified myself haven had any vibration problems with the tires all due the nuts ownership did have some other vibration problems but was due poor job tire balancing tom
rec.autos	the mustang article xtp mtb murdoch acc virginia edu jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister writes article apr virginia edu jmm virginia edu the blade runner writes just have got remind all you that this yes that right somtime this fall ford the granddaddy cars will introducing all new mega cool way too fast for accord drivers mustang supposed streamlined looking similar the mach iii concept car ford came out with around january can wait anyone out there hear anything about recently everything read correct ford doing nothing but skinning the existing mustang with minor suspension modifications and the pictures seen indicate they didn very good job the new mustang nothing but cycle year old car jeff what heard there was new engine slated for the mustang something like was from one their other lines eric alter
rec.autos	some taurus misc maint are there any fairly cheap ways increase the performance this car unfortunately taurus not exactly muscle car looking for ways increase the performance there company florida that sells computer chips that supposedly get few and torque out the don have the address but saw the hot rod and some other car magazines also you could open the exhaust get exhaust with larger hope this helps you find anything else let know got taurus george howell george howell goucher ffv ampr org
rec.autos	rfi art clutchless shifting article apr com lusky ccwf utexas edu jonathan lusky writes shifting without the clutch transmission with syncros can and will cause transmission damage the only question being how long takesto grenade something for the trans pulsar was about miles but had weak tranny the first place please explain the why this have over miles usage clutchless shift and problems krispy
rec.autos	mercury villager minivan good buy the villager quest seem like the best the cravan voyager copies come along since the mazda mpv agree about villager but not mpv small that class suv with extra seat shoehorned get any rear cargo space you shove the back seat against the middle seat eliminating all leg room back the villager only the price controversial and the use attack belts instead point belts that killed for andrew klossner andrew frip tek com
rec.autos	shifting without clutch while take the car out gear without using the clutch while the car turned off thanks advance please reply mail eric
rec.autos	dirty diesels article ceylon gte com hhd harvey gte com horace dediu writes article nataraja opal nataraja rtsg mot com kumaravel natarajan writes heard the diesels are considered cleaner burning than gas engines because the emit less carbon monoxide hydrocarbons and oxides nitrogen nox but they can put out lot particulate matter heard something about legislation being discussed clean diesel emissions there anything the works install scrubbers for diesels how about the feasibility installing them trucks and cars would any different than catylitic converter assume easier since removing particulate matter instead converting gasses let hear people opinions this really bugs the emissions diesels are the cleanest any vechicle but they are considered polluting that they are banned passenger cars california what bunch crap diesel the fuel choice for enviromental benefit europe while here illegal for the same reason the particulates are nothing but carbon they are just annoyance worst nothing beats the diesel cycle for efficiency and emissions torque engine durability also cheaper diesels fall into the same emissions mythology alcohol fuels the main reason they are considered cleaner because they are better the emissions actually measure and regulate but they also contribute additional emissions which have long been determined harmful but suitable control limits have been defined current evidence pointing most visible smog actually being diesel emissions and suspended particles and less photo chemical reaction diesel particulates are now becoming major concern decreased lung capacity and alcohols emit signifcantly more aldehydes known carcinigen than gasoline the evidence mounting that while have been beating the gasoline engine death may have been ignoring the effects the alternatives and anyone who thinks diesels are great should and spend few hours rush hour traffic some cities europe there the stench the diesels awful and can even burn the eyes diesels being clean only relative our current standards mark
rec.autos	choice gauges you had free reign design your own instrument cluster which gauges would you choose have beyond the basic set consider the basic set tach coolant temp cylinder head temp for air cooled engines oil pressure amps speedo fuel others that are nice have volts maybe this should the basic set vacuum boost can think few others but what are your ideas and why dave
rec.autos	 article ufk usenet ins cwru edu aas cwru edu andrew spencer writes previous article finnegan nrlssc navy mil says article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes the subarus all use degree vees their engines eliot wouldn that make them would they really henceforth referred underscore think that technicaly known degree vee configuration could wrong this how seen them referred drew always heard them referred horizontally opposed joe joseph staudt telxon corp joes telxon com box usenet like tetris for people who still akron remember how read heller
rec.autos	rfi art clutchless shifting not familiar with the trannies used winston cup but the trans cars played with the transmissions were the racing variety with dog clutches instead sychros transmission with dog clutches the gears are always engaged with each other and moving the dog clutches engages the gears the shafts motorcycle transmissions are the same way shifting without the clutch transmission with syncros can and will cause transmission damage the only question being how long takesto grenade something for the trans pulsar was about miles but had weak tranny the first place just out curiosity how this dog clutch any different from synchro transmission what you described sounds the same fact what little studied trannies the instructor referred the synchros dogs and said they were synonymous the gears are always meshed synchronized gearbox and you slip the synchro gears back and forth shifting least that what was taught explain por favour motorcycle transmissions don have synchros the engagment dogs are very corse and sloppy there are maybe teeth dogs the side the gears that engage the next gear over the forks slide the gears back and forth shift start apply pressure the same time the clutch pulled the clutch hand lever and shift quickly you try slow lazy shift will grind you just have pop into the next gear before has chance grind there isn neutral between gears obviously there but you can select with the shifter double clutching not possibility speed shifting which what have always heard clutchless shifting called works pretty well for upshifts with some practice but usually use the clutch especially for the lower gears think auto automobile trannys are similar except that the engagment dogs are very fine with slop and the addition syncho rings the gear teeth are always engaged auto transmissions that are synchronized but may not non synchro gears reverse and sometimes first frank ball frankb sad com work hewlett packard fax home valley house drive seca rohnert park wug law ama dod the nra
rec.autos	mercury villager minivan good buy article uckinncmf gap caltech edu wen king caltech edu wen king writes path eclipse yktnews watson ibm com hawnews watson ibm com newsgate watson ibm com news ans net europa eng gtefsd com howland reston ans net usc elroy jpl nasa gov nntp server caltech edu wen king from wen king caltech edu wen king newsgroups rec autos date apr gmt organization california institute technology lines references ejinnk gap caltech edu innvar sumax seattleu edu nntp posting host neptune caltech edu keywords mercury villager minivan van cars jittlov article innvar sumax seattleu edu smorris sumax seattleu edu steven morris writes the villager quest seem like the best the cravan voyager copies come along since the mazda mpv the nissan maxima engine paired with the maxima speed auto trans should excellent drive train and the rest the vehicle seems well engineered only the price controversial hmm the last time checked villager quest does not have maxima engine and very much under powered for its weight same engine different state tune less and maybe more torque friend work regularly takes people his and seems haul around just fine jeff goss
rec.autos	questions about insurance companies esp geico article mimsy umd edu davew umd edu david wonnacott writes considering switching geico insurance got numerous complaints about geico and several helpful pointers other good insurance companies have decided with the erie insurance exchange which seems combine high ratings from the net and consumer reports with low rates least for thanks for all the responses
rec.autos	mercury villager minivan good buy have tested both vehicles identically equipped both for week long periods curiously and consider these are test vehicles found the mercury higher build quality than the nissan either choice good but beware that did not experience reasonable mileage with the average city driving was mpg with about avg the highway both were optioned the hilt the nissan had leather the villager was the range and the nissan was over bob
rec.autos	changing oil self article apr dsd com bmoss grinch sim com brent woody moss writes article apr magnus acs ohio state edu sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu steven orlin writes article apr cbnewsj att com rdb cbnewsj att com ronald deblock writes you can avoid these problems entirely installing oil drain valve place the bolt have one both cars there have been leaks miles combined miles both cars yes but then someone would have problem draining your oil parking lot all they have reach underneath turn valve and forget the trip home but there less likelyhood they have wrench with them personally recommend installing special locking drain plug keep vandals away steve was worried about someone stealing oil once also finally decided just have drain plug welded shut works great figure that when add three four quarts when the oil light comes every month that just good better than the old wives tale changing the oil and filter every miles works for must say either just fallen for this you guys are really paranoid you actually worried about somebody stealing your oil mon you think vandal that that absolutely ridiculous besides how hard get under the car change the oil can say from experience the cars that driven and changed the oil mazda pretty much pain but once you done once you don forget how and gets easier can imagine any other cars are much worse than mine andy infante you can listen what everybody says but the fact remains bmw that you got get out there and the thing yourself dod joan sutherland opinions dammit have nothing with anyone else
rec.autos	for sale toyota camry toyota camry for sale deluxe package speed grey power windows power door locks cassette power steering power brakes highway miles excellent condition rob fusi rwf lehigh edu after mail for more info day until ask for bob fusi
rec.autos	questions about insurance companies esp geico article buck granite buck granite bull com ken buck writes unless you live area that gets frequent damaging hail storms nahhh only about once week march through may and sometimes the fall
rec.autos	slick any good mad fermi clas virginia edu michael davis writes chances are that this has been discussed death already and could someone who has kept the discussion mail direct archive site basically just wondering slick really does all says that does and also there any data support the claim thanks for any info mike davis don have any written data but know what have experienced use everything including lawnmowers car smoothed the idle and reduced the operating temp degrees havent used long enough test for wear but some people know have farmer that lives near used have overhaul his big deisel tractors least every other year not every year since has been using has went years without overhaul also friend machine shop has the past rebuilt engines with miles them because the coustomer thought was time these coustomers had ran since almost new was found when measuring the internals the engine that they showed only about the amount wear that would expected miles not opinion works beware the cat the prowel disclamer hey student cat hungry hell don need one detomaso pantera efi twin turbo david doddek with liscence fly flies uofi pantera uxa cso uiuc edu
rec.autos	warning please read article apr ctp com bpita ctp com bob pitas writes article agate berkeley edu anarres berkeley edu brian harvey writes rfelix netcom com robbie felix writes how about the thousands kind teenagers who volunteer local agencies help children seniors the homeless hear hear thanks robbie you also don read that much about violence against teenagers such george bush burying alive tens thousands unarmed iraqi year olds who were trying surrender with bulldozers the other hand think true without singling out teenagers for blame that violence more socially acceptable than used those who like discourage violence have plenty work with people all ages well this isn the right group for this but have say that don think violence any more socially acceptable now any means how can you say that when used have pistol toting gunslingers heros even gangland thugs being considered romantic you think our great grandparent got yelled their parents for playing cowboys and indians don think that behavior was somewhat encouraged back then fact think the only difference between now and then that nowadays when some teenager kills another one classroom california here about the same day back the old days they never hear about something like that period yeah people act really shocked about violence though were new our species what about the holocaust the crusades the salem witch trials the religious persecutions the middle ages what about violent acts carried out the name religion all over the world what about the early christians put death the romans the jews persecuted christians there are lot more humans today than there have ever been not know the stats but there are far more people the planet than there were hundred years ago the per capita acts violence are probably not significantly different than they were hundred thousand years ago there nothing new about violence
rec.autos	 article wphp megatest com alung megatest com aaron lung writes and man can you imagine doing valve adjustment one that has multiple non hydraulic valves each cylinder aaron was the indianapolis motor speedway museum the other day and one their very early winners was valves per cylinder and either front wheel drive all wheel drive think front wheel drive and that was spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos kocrsv delcoelect com software technology delco electronics hughes electronics kokomo post therefore armm
rec.autos	val bel sti was best radar detector article brian hotspare arc nasa gov brian gothamcity jsc nasa gov brian donnell writes article apr convex com tobias convex com allen tobias wrote live the backyard the folks who make the stalker radar system the valentine has saved many many many times from the stealth revenue enhancement traps the local area have had all the major brand detectors and imho nothing else even comes close the hadn heard the valentine before car driver and other auto magazines recommend bel detectors was considering their latest the sti which picks super wideband and laser well also avoids radar detector detectors although really don care about this since doubt driving virginia anytime soon have any other states also made detectors iilegal how does the valentine compare with the bel products brian donnell comparison the bel just hooped wideband escort like detector directional indicators bogey counter radar signature analysis remote display option not sensitive not well built had sent back
rec.autos	saturn extended warranty article innie shelley washington edu gaia carson washington edu are gaia writes article bqginn roundup crhc uiuc edu vivek crhc uiuc edu vivek chickermane writes advice saturn extended warranty placed order for saturn and expected next week the saturn retailer gave some pamphlets about the extended warranty plan and have been thinking about being first time new car buyer seeking advice from veterans esp those who have bought saturns lately fyi have listed some the features the saturn extended warranty plan the car comes with years mile bumper bumper warranty plan extended powertrain coverage covers the cost repairs engine transaxle front wheel drive hour roadside assistance program coverage term years miles deductible say extended warranties are ripoff high profit item for dealers but what really want point out here that you are not buying you get free what you are buying keep that mind when you look the cost coverage another point that many car companies routinely fix car problems that are out warranty why design manufacturing defects that the company owns keeping customer happy etc
rec.autos	changing oil self article hnbak cmuvm csv cmich edu john foster hnbak cmuvm csv cmich edu writes find this method much better myself too although really hate when the bolt finally comes loose and the wrench and hand both come crashing into face after coming which about minutes later change clothes because this time all the oil has drained and ice entire face and suck down about tylenol ease the pain later the day then proceed with refilling the engine oil just crazy how try and change the oil cars one weekend through about bottles tylenol and bags ice that not bad every time try change the oil forget shut off the engine first the hot oil comes out and scalds blinds then the engine starts overheat and while screaming agony and trying crawl out from under the car grab the red hot exhaust pipe and get third degree burns hands screams intensify finally emerge from under the car and struggle feet front the car whereupon the radiator hose ruptures and sprays with super heated coolant then the engine seizes but not before the cylinder head explodes piercing flesh with fragments red hot iron this happens every time starting think should pay the mechanic instead paying the hospital and the dealer for new car this gets costly when you change the oil every miles toadface
rec.autos	info opinions wanted cars this article article nodak edu bell plains nodak edu robert bell writes article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john nielsen writes article fibercom com rrg rtp fibercom com rhonda gaines writes the market for new car currently own mazda which has served just fine however like get door car since don relish the thought moving carseat around door car criteria are door cassette quick acceleration cruise control decent rear seat legroom husband footer must also under preferably closer the range which will probably rule out the accord the cars that have caught eye are toyota corolla toyata camry mazda pontiac grand pontiac grand prix honda accord and civic roomy enough and still comes door model hyundai sonata and maybe even small oldsmobile although not the achieva all opinions benchmarks recommendations etc are welcome the civic does still come door model wife and looked quite seriously the prizm corolla and civic well some other cars our impressions all three seemed well built and had the features wanted these are similar the features you want except for cruise control and want manual transmission and are considering anti lock brakes also hate automatic seatbelts and both think having airbag plus general comfort and performance were both significant some specific and are listed below mazda very comfortable and roomy can theoretically get abs model though practice this hard find base price for base model includes numerous little things like tach variable speed wipers rear defroster split folding rear seat more expensive than many other cars listed below honda civic gets significantly better mileage than other cars listed here comfortable front seat adjustable seat belt mounting abs without model includes other things like sunroof geo prizm toyota corolla seats not very comfortable your mileage may vary adjustable seat belt mounting can get abs without lots other extras saturn was quite comfortable though less motorized attack belts dodge spirit real outstanding but seemed generally rear seat does not fold down chevy corsica comes with abs standard lower would you buy that car again and safety ratings consumer reports than first cars above suspension didn feel stiff the others this would for some the honda accord and toyota camry were both more expensive than the and our minds not significantly better probably gave disproportionately low consideration the big due wife family general dislike chrysler products some unimpressive products owned parents and housemate mine the taurus comes with automatic transmission find the seat the tempo very uncomfortable and the escort has attack belts and air bag probably end with saw with and cassette advertised for just under washington post april think and local dealer says they can match that price will probably get the maybe tomorrow the main question mind whether not will have factory order preference order get one with abs and whether not the dealership will run the price lot
rec.autos	saturn extended warranty article uicvm uic edu uicvm uic edu writes agree with gaia even though the saturn has proved very reliable car far little money spent now worth the peace mind this interesting point some people are not really buying the coverage they are buying peace mind marketing folks love selling that suggest that people choose not engage their minds peaceless worry rather than buying that peace mind opinion getting the powertrain warranty enough case that cause anything that needed repairing the interior sunroof windows doors etc could myself just didn want mess with the engine and such you surprised how much the little knick knack stuff can cost what your goes out steering rack don get wrong against all extended warranties they are ripoff plus think the extra years hour roadside assistance must worthe meting opted for the year plan for extra yrs you realize the first free warranty that comes with the car thomas
rec.autos	 eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes the subarus all use degree vees their engines eliot are degree flat six engines chintan amin the university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	 aas cwru edu andrew spencer writes previous article finnegan nrlssc navy mil says article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes the subarus all use degree vees their engines eliot wouldn that make them would they really henceforth referred underscore think that technicaly known degree vee configuration could wrong this how seen them referred drew then what flat engine chintan amin the university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	production hold firebird camaro speed after tip from gary crum crum fcom utah edu got the phone with pontiac systems pontaic customer service whatever and inquired about rumoured production hold the formula firebird and trans btw talking with the dealer bought the car from got nowhere after being routed firebird specialist was able confirm that this fact the case first there was some problem with the performance axle ratio she wouldn into any details don know there were some shipped that had problems production was held because they simply didn have the proper parts from the supplier say she was pretty vague that anyone else knows anything about this feel free respond supposedly this problem now solved second there definate shortage parts that somehow related the six speed manual transmission this posting there production hold these cars she claimed part the delay was not wanting use inferior quality parts for the car and therefore having wait for the right high quality parts not positive that this applies the camaro well but guessing would can anyone else shed some light this chris chris silvester any man capable getting himself elected president chriss sam amgen com should means allowed the job chriss netcom com douglas adams the hitchhiker guide the galaxy
rec.autos	lexus and infiniti kchong mothra nts uci edu keith chong writes article apr msus msus edu tigger stcloud msus edu writes first off the correct spelling nissan luxury automobile division infiniti not infinity would also like clear the question what kind engines power lexus and infiniti automobiles since person had remarked earlier posts that most lexus and infiniti models had engines while the same time saying that several each manufacturer used engines lexus the and have inline infiniti inline must admit that cannot remeber for sure here inline correct hope this helps bsb keith this off the subject but don the numbers the car names above refair the engine size liters litre engine liter sport coupe and liter similar kinda bmw and nameing deal issa
rec.autos	buy back were dealership today looking buying car and the salesman was showing something was calling buy back that car that was fleeted and then given back for the new model the next year that how many miles good number have and are these types cars generally good buy thanks ellen
rec.autos	borgward question article innnb shelley washington edu monet carson washington edu diana smith writes husband used own borgwards even tho they were ugly they had names one was humphrey borgward that pretty good friend had audi that named murphy mark
rec.autos	changing oil self article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante write you actually worried about somebody stealing your oil ahhh yes andrew meet again not stealing the oil just draining leave stranded mon you think vandal that let guess you from hudson ohio that absolutely ridiculous get out and see the world were the vandal and really hated someone maybe someone who knew something about cars course would look for any types valves could undo especially special oil drain plugs and radiator petcocks well putting bad things the gas while would never vandalize someone car were would probably the time bomb approach and sure not the only one who thinks that way steve
rec.autos	what the deal with blue book value auto article dex news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes newton convex com vicki newton writes the process buying new auto haven decided yet whether should sell current car myself trade part the new auto purchase know that the blue book value for the car acquaintence has offered give blue book value for the car just wondering this standard measure for negotiating resale price can hope get more money from someone else what exactly blue book value based know that for its year car has low mileage excellent working condition but does have few dings the exterior nothing major any these facts alter the fair selling rice the car not looking rip anyone off just naturally want get the best price for the car thanks million veek think the blue book the nada handbook for used car prices the blue book value given the retail wholesale value the blue book value isn set stone though low milage extra addons and stuff like that there can increase the resale price the car you may want head over the local library borrow your friends blue book and read that sort stuff paid under retail for civic and was perfect condition and had only miles the guy was desparate sell new kid the way etc but was good price remeber both you and the buyer has any sort brains all are using the blue book you should pick fair price chintan amin llama uiuc edu chintan amin the university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area mileage chart should available the book usually goes the class car you own and year usually you will end adding few hundred dollars the retail price subtracting consumer reports also has number you can call and get quote for your area friend mine used and was quite happy with the service believe cost about joe
rec.autos	help with mitsubishi galant transmission article linnac phakt usc edu rmakarem usc edu total stranger writes need your help with problem have with mitsubishi galant transmission the car has speed manual tranmission since the car was bought new while shifting from unless slowly and carefully makes popping hitting sound the dealer and mitsubishi customer service reached say this normal for the car and about year ago kmiles the stick shift handle got stuck while attempting put reverse the shifter would not budge the clutch had effect the front tires would not budge even when the clutch fully depressed the clutch released the engine would die assuming that some gear was engaged while the shifter was stuck could not make the car move acted were neutral except for dying when clutch released finally was able release the shifter having someone rock the car back and forth less than inch while depressed the clutch and jiggled the shifter the shifter acted normally after that when this happened took the dealer they checked the clutch was they checked the transmission was had the exact problem couple months ago and again last week the dealer says there nothing they can because mitsubishi the says they have never heard the problem and the dealer could not reproduce the problem while they had the car all three occurances the car was parked head first garage and since the front wheels were stuck the car could not towed the dealer before releasing the shifter hence temporarily solving the problem and the dealer and mitsubishi refused send someone check the car while was stuck know there smething wrong with the transmission shifting from and getting stuck random but can get the dealer fix need your help with the mechanical problems and with how handle mitsubishi all hints and suggestions are greatly appreciated and sorry bore you with the long post thanks rabih try another dealer sometimes the sophistication equipment etc better one dealer than another you may also find another dealer willing help you with the problem joe
rec.autos	manual shift bigots article apr ericsson etxmst sta ericsson writes but why not turn the question around why are automatics common the because some people like them and some people actually need them guess that when they tried couple manuals the torque rich the sixties the clutches turned out real killers you had use both feet depress and that this has just lived yeah right real muscle cars had manual transmission and their clutches aren that heavy shelby american used plenty high powered high torque engines and carroll only put autos his cars because people wanted them blasphemers heretics burn them burn them for defiling shelby with auto real cobras and they were the ultimate sports car the time had big block fords which turned out prodigious amounts power and torque and none them had automatics and also automatic with engine can real fun drive yeah you call gear shift the middle curve fun personally would love have galaxie liter coupe with fire breathing and four onna floor along side galaxie pillarless hardtop with fire breathing with three onna tree love the sound dual exhaust the morning there comparison between real american muscle car and car with big engine and automatic imho james james callison microcomputer coordinator oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not engineer but play one work the forecast calls for thunder bird hell thing killing man you take away all has and all ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	warning please read article drutx att com klf druwa att com franklinkl writes article srib constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes normally have unloaded colt delta glove box with loaded magazine handy which perfectly legal oklahoma for those times that travelling inter state keep unloaded magnum revolver the glove box with speed loader pocket which legal everywhere under federal law illinois state police hanged carrying pistol loaded unloaded the glove compartment considered carrying concealed weapon colorado and illegal without concealed weapons permit unless the law has been changed recently carrying weapon openly legal colorado but concealing illegal read newspaper account last year where police stopped car traffic infraction and observed magnum revolver sitting the seat the driver could not cited for possessing carrying the weapon because was not concealed the article stated that the gun had been discovered the glove box would have been considered crime carrying the glove box not covered not sure what was thinking there legal oklahoma inter state travel long legal for you own your point origination and destination the gun carried locked compartment box glove box specifically excluded separate from the ammo legal under title chapter section forget and copy the regs home the code this unfortunately has not prevented the theft state troopers certain state which shall remain nameless protect the hopelessly stupid under that state law gee and thought federal law overrode state law james james callison microcomputer coordinator oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not engineer but play one work the forecast calls for thunder bird hell thing killing man you take away all has and all ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	lexus and infiniti don the numbers the car names above refair the engine size liters litre engine liter sport coupe and liter similar kinda bmw and nameing deal note bmw doesnt always follow this convention for example had liter engine the had liter
rec.autos	honda mailing list there honda mailing list and how subscribe
rec.autos	rush was too fast article tcora gator pica army mil tcora pica army mil tom coradeschi writes useless road design speed rate discussion deleted actually the roads were designated safe when they were built the taking into account the kinds cars then available the number would much higher today because the cars tires and just about everything else has imprivoved lot except the drivers thank you travis disclamer the ideas expressed above are fact the same employer since have none mail flame marshatt feserve purdue edu
rec.autos	cellular antannas need get some info cellular antennas who are the biggest companies this market now how much their antenna cost what are the specs the antennas gain directivity who the contact person thank you email erini enterprise ifp uiuc edu
rec.autos	locking lugnuts tire rebalance article apr skcla monsanto com mas skcla monsanto com writes you put locking lugnut your tires you need have your tires rebalanced john mas mail address mas skcla monsanto com bought set are few months back and decided add locks that could keep new rims haven had balance problem yet assume that might just particular your type stock nuts rims were balanced with new bfg speed shop the finest setting their bal machine that helps too zauberer aka travis
rec.autos	trucking industry which are them main trucking companeies and their locations you have the name contact person thanks email erini enterprise ifp uiuc edu
rec.autos	where can get new york taxi wharfie wrat unisql uucp wrote article srgenprp com almanb com bob alman writes hose dork really here what you posted earlier another thread before you thrash others for making simple mistakes flaunt your wonderful skill think about how you make them feel well how you look you spelled right for years you have assaulted others with offensive language etc from the content many your posts you appear have lot useful information share with people but gets overshadowed when you come across abusive smart ass wharfie wrat unisql uucp wrote article lobl ddw mentor purdue edu marshatt feserve purdue edu auberer writes remember roads america are not designed for speeds above meaning they would safe roads like the autobahn are smoother straiter wider and slightly banked well that news before the speed limit texas highways was the speed limit the new jersey turnpike was there were speed limits nevada montana east becoming hidden trees after about and continued the left strait north wanted turn north checked the south lane rolled straight
rec.autos	choice gauges article ybo vcd com dmunroe vcd com dave gauge writes you had free reign design your own instrument cluster which gauges would you choose have beyond the basic set consider the basic set tach must have coolant temp cylinder head temp for air cooled engines must oil pressure must amps seen amps and volts would for the volts speedo must you ask fuel would like know how much gas have course the gauge have now dosen tell could see not having one favor warning light say others that are nice have volts maybe this should the basic set vacuum boost oooooohhhhh how would looove have vacuum gauge dash travis disclamer the ideas expressed above are fact the same employer since have none mail flame marshatt feserve purdue edu
rec.autos	comparing saabs bmw edwards world std com jonathan edwards writes bmw suck the snow have aggressive snows plus hundred pounds sand the back and still try avoid driving the snow happily took the saab through blizzard conditions without worry would say this the single design flaw the bmw for reasonable sum you can get bmw with traction control torque sensing limited slip rear differential since fwd car including the saab has this kind front differential since would exacerbate torque steer bmw with traction control should have the theoretical advantage snow course weight distribution and skinny tires could affect this
rec.autos	bfgoodrich radial touring tires looking for tires would like hear your experience the goodrich radial tires and the touring especially for size for radial how they snow and wet weather are they quiet tires for touring how many miles can they last believe they are every way equal better than radial right chan
rec.autos	choice gauges going drive public road then need speedometer and odometer helps for navigation chevy has bare minimum engine temp and oil press warning lights and fuel gauge has tach water temp voltmeter and oil temp gauges had turbo car want vacuum manifold boost gauge oil pressure gauge nice reassuring gauge look car was air cooled then would substitute cyl head temp gauge for the water temp gauge few years ago looked the audi quattro coupe that bobby unser used win the pikes peak hill climb the gauge layout from left right top bottom was speedometer fuel tranny press temp differential water temp temp big orange tach oil press warning light oil temp boost oil press alex amiller almaden ibm com
rec.autos	comparing saabs bmw article lth oninn exodus eng sun com tut cairo eng sun com bill bill tuthill writes for reasonable sum you can get bmw with traction control torque sensing limited slip rear differential traction control far the optional feature that one buys with cars not the same thing all torque sensing differential torque sensing differential type lsd but not all lsd are torque sensing viscous coupled differentials opposed viscous couplings are rotational sensing not torque sensing for that matter are traction control systems that use abs sensors and pulse braking then there are the older posi tracs and whatever which not familiar with the workings eliot
rec.autos	what car this article ericsson etxmst sta ericsson markus strobl writes article innk ctron news ctron com smith ctron com lawrence smith writes article apr reed edu rseymour reed edu robert seymour writes article apr wam umd edu lerxst wam umd edu where thing writes was called bricklin bricklins were manufactured the with engines from ford waitaminnit didn the bricklin have pugeot six cylinder confusing with the delorean was sure the delorean had the delorean had the yucky prv engine joint venture between peugout note spelling renault and volvo prv this engine mighty boring markus markus what that are noting about the spelling that you aren good that peugeot out america what does this mean roland intrigued peugeot admirer
rec.autos	dirty diesels wouldn want anyone make kindling out front living room wall and then drive their diesel powered tank into shooting super hot soot all over curtains and that freshly made kindling other words please don flame yup have answer for this one
rec.autos	manual xmission advice needed have manual transmission speed difficult engage gear does xmission oil change improve this situation what you think about the most favorable xmission oil change period youjip
rec.autos	choice gauges dmunroe vcd com dave gauge writes can think few others but what are your ideas and why dave well bmw like the little light that turns when you are running out gas big help you got turbo that gauge must could just like all the gauges possible car but can have everything can
rec.autos	 article apr telxon mis telxon com joes telxon mis telxon com joe staudt writes newsgroups rec autos path eclipse yktnews watson ibm com newsgate watson ibm com news ans net howland reston ans net newsserver jvnc net louie udel news intercon com psinntp telxon mis telxon com joes from joes telxon mis telxon com joe staudt organization telxon corporation references apr engr washington edu apr tulane edu ufk usenet ins cwru edu date fri apr gmt lines article ufk usenet ins cwru edu aas cwru edu andrew spencer writes previous article finnegan nrlssc navy mil says article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes the subarus all use degree vees their engines eliot wouldn that make them would they really henceforth referred underscore think that technicaly known degree vee configuration could wrong this how seen them referred drew always heard them referred horizontally opposed joe kinda dull always liked boxer subarus can use this does porche and bmw twins that motorcycle for you with too many wheels jeff goss
rec.autos	wife wants convertible aas cwru edu andrew spencer writes nuet pts mot com keith nuetzman writes help wife has informed that she wants convertible for her next car vllyoak resun com jeff perry writes fyi just last week the pbs show motor week gave the results what they thought were the best cars for the convertible category the snip snip does porsche have patent the targa name mean convertible means top down which the del sol certainly does not has the center that lifts out this what would term targa unless porsches was gonna sue for doing that know the rear window rolls down but still can hardly consider this car convertible drew here course porsche doesn have patent the targa name that were the case what would fiat suppose that technically del sol not convertible the literal sense but certainly classifies open topped car addition the rear section behind the removable top what makes car infinately safer than convertible flame retardant diane dspalme mke com
rec.autos	information needed yjwon deca umn edu youjip won writes this first time post this news group now days have stu there engine warning signal the dash board while driving this wanna know how the engine warning signal comes anybody out there who low oil pressure usually could your oil pump checked your oil lately mchase oneb almanac mark chase the old frog almanac home the almanac unix users group public access usenet vancouver island british columbia waffle xenix
rec.autos	service indicator bmw save youself the cash take from bmw mechanic idiot lights are for just that buy yourself ballpoint pen and write down yourself change your oil every and you will just fine follow the regular service intervals you book also
rec.autos	mercury villager minivan good buy from article uckinncmf gap caltech edu wen king caltech edu wen king article innvar sumax seattleu edu smorris sumax seattleu edu steven morris writes the villager quest seem like the best the cravan voyager copies come along since the mazda mpv the nissan maxima engine paired with the maxima speed auto trans should excellent drive train and the rest the vehicle seems well engineered only the price controversial hmm the last time checked villager quest does not have maxima engine and very much under powered for its weight yes does come with the maxima gxe engine mated the maxima transmission and has decent power for minivan also check again aamir qazi aamir qazi qazi csd csd uwm edu why should care rather watch drying paint
rec.autos	dealer cheated with wrong odometer reading need help article qvrnpinnnid shelley washington edu yongje hardy washington edu yong lim writes here story bought car about two weeks ago finally can get hold the previous owner the car and got all maintanence history the car between and the instrument pannel the car has been replaced and the odometer also has been reset zero therefore the true meter reading the reading before replacement plus current mileage that shows mile difference comparing the mileage the odometer disclosure from the dealer never told anything about that important story hope that can return the car with full refund think this possible does anyone have similar experiences any comments will appreciated thanks this tricky situation the previous owner didn inform the dealer the odometer change then the previous owner committed fraud and may liable the dealer may also liable the previous owner notified the dealer the previous owner had the dash replaced dealer the previous owner had the dash changed legally any records search the car should turn the fact that the odometer had been altered dealer changes the speedometer has report goes into the car service record with the manufacturer and the title remember correctly the dealer told that the old mileage etc were sent ford when bird speedo was replaced the odometer can set the old mileage must can electrically driven odometers then the mileage the old odometer must written permanent sticker which affixed the door frame the vehicle either way the change had been done legally then records search which the dealer almost certainly did should have turned call your state department transportation public safety motor vehicles your tag agent find out for certain what your rights are your state attorney general will know for certain james james callison microcomputer coordinator oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not engineer but play one work the forecast calls for thunder bird hell thing killing man you take away all has and all ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	noisy engine previous article aas cwru edu andrew spencer says previous article eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot says article vofinn usenet dec com tomacj opco enet dec com thunderbirds are writes nice theory too bad the never came with four cylinder over liters more like did they were the nonturbo some such let clarify think they both are litres also understand that anyone using balancing shafts four cylinders must pay saab royalty for using their patented design like porsche was already corrected this and believe may have been errror that actually mistubishi apologies for butting into the thread drew
rec.autos	opinions pontiac bonneville the market buy used car particularly interested the pontiac bonneville budget between thousand would able afford what engines were available this time know they didn redesign until the model year how the reliability past models would appreciate any advice information neil gandler
rec.autos	changing oil self article hnbak cmuvm csv cmich edu john foster hnbak cmuvm csv cmich edu writes date wednesday apr edt from john foster hnbak cmuvm csv cmich edu subject changing oil self from drew kinglear colorado edu drew eckhardt article pod sour pod sour paul donnell wri qgi einnhs skeena ucs ubc yiklam unixg ubc yik chong lam writes hello find this method much better myself too although really hate when the bolt finally comes loose and the wrench and hand both come crashing into face after coming which about minutes later change clothes because this time all the oil has drained and ice entire face and suck down about tylenol ease the pain later the day then proceed with refilling the engine oil just crazy how try and change the oil cars one weekend through about bottles tylenol and bags ice john not everyone should trusted with tools ron stafford texas instruments incorporated box stafford lobby com dallas texas
rec.autos	car saftey important previous article jimf centerline com jim frost says jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john nielsen writes article armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes tcorkum bnr trevor corkum writes figure that mph collisions into brick walls aren common enough for spend that much extra money for protection but there are lots low speed collisions that worry get into mph accident and you may reconsider been one and really scarey life something value more than car looks handeling consider insurance may not happen often but when does you sure glad you got safe car granted the tests aren perfect but much rather car that did well the test than car that did horribly you raise valid point but again tradeoff how much money you want spend for that kind protection you could buy volvo saab benz and get really good crash protection and other luxuries but you pay significantly more for case out the question because all those cars are beyond budget been two major auto accidents both were multiple car the worst was head three car collision intersection and one person ran stop sign both cases was stopped and had place and saw coming both times even high speed head collisions the most beneficial item you can have good old point seatbelt nowadays least the you get airbag you get point belt presumably you get added safety benefit there well that something certainly look for and which can had inexpensive cars you really want add safety any car simply add cage the car they are available and cheap about the usa add that four five six point belts and you will walk away from collisions that were otherwise not survivable but instead people spending little extra money get legislation that says the gov must mandate minimal level protection for everyone one other significant factor improving one own safety get some training this will improve your safety more than any other single investment will drive ride defensively and that does not mean you have doddering old stick the mud people here tend enthuse about autos more than the average probably the top percentile driving ability but still sometimes overlook the obvious been two driving schools and three riding schools for motorcycle very worthwhile investment and besides was lot fun too safety what you make just because carmaker doesn provide you with adequate level protection doesn mean you have leave that bowers dod alfa ducati hobie kottke blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes don you know that girls can play guitar mary chapin carpenter
rec.autos	dirty diesels yeah but hate follow them with the exhaust ground level not all diesels are well maintained either seems they run for long that people keep them going long after the top end worn out
rec.autos	service indicator bmw does anyone know how reset the service indicator bmw after changing the oil yourself also have about miles and far only one the five yellow service indicators went out that means don need oil service until reach approximatly miles which doesn make sense any idea cause did first oil change miles derek
rec.autos	bimmer beamer article andrei namao andrei namao uucp andrei chichak writes back when was building round tail light they were bimmers was only when the red suspendered reganomics generated quiche eating yuppies got into the market that they became beamers and the hood ornaments started disappering yep that when noticed too stopped replacing the hood badge after the second third one each drivers used flash their headlight each other greeting try flashing your headlights driver and see what kind look you get they usually check their radar detector they think you alerting them cop mark
rec.autos	old corvettes low insurance article rjnc sxmg jqh netcom com richard newton rjn netcom com writes related note does this seem sane price for convertible corvette good condition how does one determine these things used car magazine doesn list corvettes any net wisdom what look for what avoid thanks advance rich first all you might want join the vettenet vettes chiller compaq com during your search acquisition the sounds about right for wrong engine condition car this means that the car may not have significant investment value but could excellent driver and hobby car you will also want get copy the corvette black book immediately don leave home look vettes without since you are contemplating spending you might want invest few hours reading the corvette buyer guide and purchase noland adams tape how buy corvette the tape shows you how check for damage etc there are many many factors that will affect the value road worthiness and repair expense your proposed the list much too long into here join the vettenet where there are over current corvette owners many with vintage vettes that are available help you the pubs mentioned above are available from mid america designs and several other corvette parts sources good luck tom cruiser
rec.autos	manual shift bigots article apr rtsg mot com kissane black berkeley edu john kissane writes matter interest does anyone know why autos are popular the while here europe they are rare just wondering many our cities there are traffic signals every feet unsynchronised course well here ottawa anyway and the roads are congested that shifting manually real pain the left foot also most canadians are too stupid learn how shift manually gee gotta ordinate two feet the clutch brake and accelerator and gotta steer shift and operate the signals optional and radio with two hands duh can done also most north american made cars come with the automatic standard equipment why bother with manual when the car can shift for you for addition money john kissane motorola ireland ltd uucp uunet motcid glas kissanej mahon industrial estate internet kissanej glas rtsg mot com blackrock cork ireland doug zolmer internet dwjz bnr disclaimer opinions only bell northern research ltd ottawa ontario canada dept service control point routing services design
rec.autos	any info merc cheek
rec.autos	the mustang petebre elof iit edu brenta peterson writes jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister writes jmm virginia edu the bald runner writes just have got remind all you that this yes that right somtime this fall ford the granddaddy cars will introducing all new mega cool way too fast for accord drivers mustang supposed streamlined looking similar the mach iii concept car ford came out with around january can wait anyone out there hear anything about recently everything read correct ford doing nothing but skinning the existing mustang with minor suspension modifications and the pictures seen indicate they didn very good job the new mustang nothing but cycle year old car gee already yes will still the fox program chasis anything that will differe the new car far mechanical unknown the suspension will most likely changed well the drive drain from what has been printed there clear idea what will done some say will have the modular and others the current small block just have wait and see also far styling goes from what seen good return tradition scoop the sides and roof line much like fastback you know ford fan must say looking forward the next mustang have faith that will fine product more desireable than the camaro now you know that mho the differences these days between ford and are not much the quality just the philosophy used quality and philosophy barely catching but they have more room for improvement that can only made time stss still come off the assembly line with screwed paint stripes and poor trunk door hood panel alignments those year old plants and the latest products still come with the standard equipment rattledash but like said they getting better and making the move the right direction they beat ford the market with the camaro firebird but really only words production these vehicles will limited until the end the year keeping selling prices above msrp for the most part since there are many twitching camaro fans out there wouldn press ford hurry the mustang since the final wait could worth besides bow tie fanatic gonna buy the mustang anyway not put much stock the mag rags inside information even ford rep quotes the taurus was pretty much surprise when was finally disclosed entirety inside information had the taurus with and rear wheel drive one point wouldn look for simple paneled mustang folks you may cheating yourself you there lot potential ford hasn released new car without wheel years the mustang project has been brewing for least right wheel could happen those modular are out there too the interest cafe and competition don rule those out either your ignorant you and there are many spy shots and artist renderings out there who really knows what look like the mach iii doubt highly the next mustang will ford highest profile car attracts way more attention than the camaro firebird because heritage more embedded the general public don lie yourself and believe ford will forfeit that submit that the mustang will success enough elicit defensive remarks from some heavy camaro fans here you know intelligent critical spews like the mustang bites man some you are already beginning predict that the mustang and camaro will comparable performers usual predict that the differences will subjective areas like looks and feel usual the camaro still huge automobile the mustang will retain its cab rearward styling and short pony car wheelbase the camaro still reaches out the fighter pilot while the mustang will appeal the driver the camaro will still sell the muscle car set while the mustang will continue sell the college degreed muscle car set both will more refined think the camaro there will clear winner unless the ford gets the romeo you don seriously believe that was designed for the mark viii only you regards brian bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu the engineer can choose department engineering mechanics ohio state university columbus
rec.autos	 cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes aas cwru edu andrew spencer writes think that technicaly known degree vee configuration could wrong this how seen them referred then what flat engine flat deg horizonatlly opposed usually also equals boxer however think the term traditionally reserved for and and firing order matters this was talked about here many months back can remember the consensus examples ferrari flat boxer porsche flat subaru impreza flat regards brian bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu the engineer can choose department engineering mechanics ohio state university columbus
rec.autos	changing oil self sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu steven orlin writes infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes you actually worried about somebody stealing your oil ahhh yes andrew meet again not stealing the oil just draining leave stranded mon you think vandal that let guess you from hudson ohio hey what this hudson crap actually the only place car has ever been broken into was hudson laws their driveway took vuarnets and some change damn kids regards brian bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu the engineer can choose department engineering mechanics ohio state university columbus
rec.autos	honda mailing list excerpts from netnews rec autos apr honda mailing list james atkins prism there honda mailing list and how subscribe you look their magazine ads they may have phone number call and you can ask for catalog the list etc
rec.autos	looking for tips for driving cross country goldstein rdg world std com sez the subject says moving from mass calif and will driving mostly interstate any advice from folks who have done before plan your gas stops major city areas avoid the cent per gallon only gas station for miles and you out towner surcharge prepare your car don forget things like your fuel air filters you loading your car consider putting your spare top your stuff just case flat country trip tire disintegrated the california desert took minutes unload all stuff get the tire you have hatchback cover all your stuff with white bedsheet help keep the stuff and your car cool well possibly avoiding theft mcdonalds have good clean bathrooms invest magnetic roof antenna may help you stranded and you can always ask people for places stop for food etc many times police like hang out the miles after you enter new state catch all the speeders who have escaped the previous state same above when you enter mph city zone after hours and hours mph rural interstate dave davetorok torok nynexst com fax juggle nynex science technology westchester ave white plains
rec.autos	weird problem with banger transmission having interesting problem with girlfriend car before delve into its innards thought check net wisdom the subject buick skyhawk know know efi banger auto miles when drive tha car long enough get hot especially highways speeds the transmission has this nasty habit getting stuck gear result when you stop for light the motor stalls putting the car park and waiting for seconds before restarting sometimes allows the transmission reset and back into otherwise just stalls when put drive thoughts either the gear band binding and getting stuck when gets hot not likely perhaps the lock converter not disengaging properly seems likely the least likely keeping fingers crossed that some critical vacuum hose has broken cracked and this behaviour due lack vaccuum somewhere used happen with old modulator valves background that father owns service station and worked there and off from years age please feel free technical you want appreciate hearing any tips suggestions offers free beer grin skoal chris
rec.autos	auto air conditioning without freon article apr convex com tobias convex com allen tobias writes better still years ago they demonstrated cold air system which only used air was called rovax the unit worked very well the short coming was the seal technology where today actually the company and the product was rovac which stood for rotary air conditioning used rotary compressor with what was effectively air air heat exchanger and worked pretty well the negatives were mostly that was about less efficient than using freon and noise problems from the high velocity pressure air all which were solved the time the company went bankrupt still legal entity florida but believe completely dead and there heck opurtunity buy patents and restart the operation alan peterman work qiclab scn rain com odd how get older the days are longer but the years are shorter
rec.autos	dirty diesels from nataraja rtsg mot com kumaravel natarajan but they can put out lot particulate matter heard something about legislation being discussed clean diesel emissions there anything the works install scrubbers for diesels how about the feasibility installing them trucks and cars would any different than catylitic converter assume easier since removing particulate matter instead converting gasses let hear people opinions the technology cummins applying diesels comply with the newer emissions laws involves three things know all compliant diesels are turbocharged all use aftercooler which cools the air which was heated compression the turbocharger about psi gismo the injector pump which senses the pressurized air intake and limits full delivery fuel while the pressure low scrubbers catalytic converters etc are used the path from the turbocharger the exhaust outlet kept very free interestingly except for the low pressure fuel limitation power output and mileage are enhanced these measures one can buy aftermarket turbos and aftercoolers which generate more power lots more power and these are approved the carb dan hepner
rec.autos	honda clutch chatter article hpindda cup com jimb hpindda cup com james bruder writes from jimb hpindda cup com james bruder date fri apr gmt organization information networks cupertino path eclipse yktnews watson ibm com newsgate watson ibm com news ans net howland reston ans net usc sdd com hpscit com hplextra hpcss hpindda jimb newsgroups rec autos references hpindda cup com lines nice know that not alone out there when comes clutch etc problems late model hondas get few more supportive responses will take them local honda dealer maybe send them the regional rep southern calif for their input the problem maybe some group pressure from honda owners can placed honda find solution such retrofit the clutch maybe just sell the blasted vehicle and back driving year old pick which was now fixed having clutch problems and caused look for what thought would trouble free solution sure not put down honda anything the accord has performed flawlessly all other areas for its miles said out all this something will develop later folks not alone all old accord now the hands sibling has much better engagement the clutch even the old civic keep beater feels better this aspect note that these are cars with kms and kms respectively prelude blows both them away every respect except smooth clutch engagement course the kawasaki the best the bunch but need more than wheels most the time the prelude has had dud clutch from day and after three years and kms better best luck and feel free add this your collection jeff goss
rec.autos	changing brake fluid necessary article apr gmuvax gmu edu lcarr gmuvax gmu edu writes been seeing all these articles about changing brake fluid and wondering this really necessary have toyota corolla with and the only you want stop seriously though every years you should have this done brake fluid absorbs water over time the water becomes steam when the fluid gets hot and steam compresses you also have better luck with the longevity master cylinder calipers and brake lines jeff goss
rec.autos	mbenz bmw question when the new benz class cars come out the new nomenclature that has adopted will only apply the class cars will also apply the current class cars does any one know what will replace the current class since the class will smaller and more line with the current another question bmw realising new body style the current series and series they seem bit dated
rec.autos	horizontally opposed boxer engines was article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian queiser writes there are two crank configurations for the flat the most common one probably the crank that very similar the crank which flat engines have style cranks comparing those two engines the and the flat have first order shaking forces rocking moments the has second order shaking force while the flat has second order rocking moment the significant thing about the flat second order moment that can easily balanced out adding mass the ends the crank the however requires counter rotating shaft with mass balance out the second order forces sure that subaru and porsche use the boxer configuration and not the inline crank that you analyzed and compared would you care evaluate the other case flat four think that this configuration perfectly balanced far primary secondary forces and couples are concerned have article front that says bottom line the biggest difference between the engines would probably their intended use the flat easier fit under low hoods and rear compartments for mid rear mounting the can mounted transversely reduce hood length read cab forward other than that there isn much fanfare the differences between them matter what subaru ads say technology shared with porsche indeed the flat four also shorter than inline even mounted longitudinally will not take lots length and longitudinal placement easier for wheel drive drivetrain think that subaru ads hold water practice their flat fours are noticeably smoother than inline and completely buzz free though some may not like its peculiar note but alfa has shown boxer four can produce spine tingling scream that only the likes recent hondas can approach eliot
rec.autos	manual shift bigots article pebi zephyr aem umn edu pebi aem umn edu peter bidian writes there another advantage with manuals you can start the car pushing and shifting into second gear this doesn work with automatic peter just for the record read your owner manual before attempting push start most manufacturers today not recommend this think the catalytic converter the primary reason unburned gas goes down and may ignite when the converter gets into its operating range the best reason for manual because you like drive one find that its much easier develop lazy habits auto trans car remember pay attention out there stupidity behind the wheel has still taken more people the morgue than drunk driving the problem that don revoke peoples license for stupidity jeff goss
rec.autos	 article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian queiser writes flat deg horizonatlly opposed usually also equals boxer however think the term traditionally reserved for and and firing order matters this was talked about here many months back can remember the consensus examples ferrari flat boxer porsche flat subaru impreza flat regards brian bmws boxer twin two wheelers here been around since think the other examples are johnny come latelies may wrong flames please jeff goss
rec.autos	 article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian queiser writes examples ferrari flat boxer porsche flat subaru impreza flat think you got the other way round the ferrari flat degree and not true boxer while the subaru and porsche are true boxers don know about the bug though but suspect that also true boxer eliot
rec.autos	pennsylvania insurance limited tort option hey all looking buying new car but confused about the insurance coverage this also applies existing car insurance policy does anyone understand what the limited tort option means will lower rates opt have will more expensive opt have what does for layman terms please good deal should ignore not the type sue anyone drop the hat nor the type report every little ding the insurance company vandalism claim please help thanks advance george
rec.autos	seeking recommendations for new car purchase folks going purchasing new vehicle the next few months trying hold out until the fall since have heard that can better negotiating position purchase right when the are coming out need something that can comfortably carry adults kids car seats and pound dogs can probably afford something the range interested the suv but not sure there are any that are decent which can afford think the ford explorer got good reviews from consumer reports but above range the isuzu rodeo probably price range but think consumer reports gave big thumbs down can anyone offer any suggestions hoping for something little more hip than the traditional wagon and the suvs look like fun lot camping too veek
rec.autos	for sale evanston one car for sale oldsmobile omega four door gray power windows power steering power brakes remote trunk release starts reliably and runs well but needs some work obo for details email michael atkinson there try there only dew asbestos nwu edu libertarian and nra member
rec.autos	questions about insurance companies esp geico radar radio association defending airwave rights says that geico insurance not only buy radar for police but also actively lobbies states promote making radar detectors illegal think the buying part misuse money but the radar detector part shows how little they know about the issue study aware has ever concluded that detectors have negative impact safety that users have higher average speed incompetence geico think troy wecker troy sequent com sequent computer systems beaverton article apr julian uwo wlsmith valve heart rri uwo wayne smith writes article mimsy umd edu davew umd edu david wonnacott writes considering switching geico insurance but have heard that they not assign specific agent for each policy claim was worried that this might real pain when you make claim have also heard that they try get rid you you have accident read this group that geico has funded the purchasing radar guns police depts not sure where
rec.autos	noisy engine article apr engr washington edu eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot writes article vofinn usenet dec com tomacj opco enet dec com thunderbirds are writes are there any owners motor head gurus out there that know why engine sounds noisy the engine noisy the best times but not even nice nose one those very ugly noises assuming yours non turbo the gruffness characteristic large inline that doesn have balance shafts guess toyota didn care about little details like that when they can brag about the mid engine configuration and the flashy styling myself automatically cross out any car from consideration recommendation which has inline larger than liters and balance shafts good rule thumb keep mind you ever want halfway decent engine the noise really bugs you there nothing else that you can except sell and get eliot eliot right about liter engine the second and last generation but the original guy did not indicate the year his first generation car like has liter engine perhaps same engine with supercharger the sound describes common any older toyota engine ever heard don know the relevance his observations about oil changes simply makes noise not all that annoying mind you but you hear well when the engine right behind your left ear mike
rec.autos	opinions pontiac bonneville article ullq acsu buffalo edu ubvmsb buffalo edu neil gandler writes the market buy used car particularly interested the pontiac bonneville budget between thousand would able afford what engines were available this time know they didn redesign until the model year how the reliability past models would appreciate any advice information neil gandler word yes bonnevilles prices avg retail sedan sedan sedan sse
rec.autos	the mustang article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian queiser writes the subject the upcoming new mustang not put much stock the mag rags inside information even ford rep quotes the taurus was pretty much surprise when was finally disclosed entirety inside information had the taurus with and rear wheel drive one point wouldn look for simple paneled mustang folks you may cheating yourself you there lot potential ford hasn released new car without wheel years the mustang project has been brewing for least right wheel could happen those modular are out there too the interest cafe and competition don rule those out either your ignorant you and there are many spy shots and artist renderings out there who really knows what look like the mach iii doubt highly the next mustang will ford highest profile car attracts way more attention than the camaro firebird because heritage more embedded the general public don lie yourself and believe ford will forfeit that the car magazines have printed lot information about the new mustang and the consensus about what believe car circle that the suspension pieces and tuning will almost identical the current cobra but stiffer body structure which will improve its behavior after the thunderbird cost and weight debacle ford decided independent rear suspension with rear wheel drive won tried again volume car the current will soldier for about two years version the valve modular the mark viii could offered then ford spending big money tooling for and engines which will power most their cars the immediate future and therefore probably not consider volume production engines priority undisguised the car looks but not nearly exciting the new camaro firebird imo suspect ford will produce their car with higher quality than will achieve with the camaro firebird the way loses money the temptation just get them out the door for the sake positive cash flow will great once demand really takes off tim gardner
rec.autos	the mustang jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister writes article apr virginia edu jmm virginia edu the blad just have got remind all you that this yes that right somtime this fall ford the granddaddy cars will introducing all new mega cool way too fast for accord drivers mustang supposed streamlined looking similar the mach iii concept car ford came out with around january can wait anyone out there hear anything about recently everything read correct ford doing nothing but skinning the existing mustang with minor suspension modifications and the pictures seen indicate they didn very good job the new mustang nothing but cycle year old car just saw picture the mustang popular mechanics what disappointment after being bombarded with pictures the mach iii
rec.autos	michelin trx tires info needed all have available set metric wheels came off mustang bird which are wearing nearly bald michelin trx tires the only place have found these tires the tire rack mailorder place for pop there cheaper source another manufacturer this size tire thanks for any info please mail responses and will post summary there any interest jas jim struglia mizzou missouri edu mizzou bitnet
rec.autos	what car this innk ctron news ctron com smith ctron com lawrence smith writes article apr reed edu rseymour reed edu robert seymour writes article apr wam umd edu lerxst wam umd edu where thing writes was called bricklin bricklins were manufactured the with engines from ford waitaminnit didn the bricklin have pugeot six cylinder confusing with the delorean was sure the delorean had the delorean used the peugot renault volvo rear engine configuration the bricklin use some merkin iron front engine rear drive configuration steve valin steve sgi com just had brain washed and can thing with
rec.autos	questions about insurance companies esp geico article murdoch acc virginia edu jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister writes article apr julian uwo wlsmith valve heart rri uwo wayne smith writes article mimsy umd edu davew umd edu david wonnacott writes considering switching geico insurance but have heard that they not assign specific agent for each policy claim was worried that this might real pain when you make claim have also heard that they try get rid you you have accident read this group that geico has funded the purchasing radar guns police depts not sure where geico has purchased radar guns several states know they have done here have also heard horror stories about people that have been insured geico for years and then had accident and were immediately dropped and once you been dropped any insruance company you become labled high risk and end forking out times what you should for insurance this must vary from state state because our old company kemper wanted drop keeping wife tripple our premium because had ticket only points for mph over speed limit well called geico and they insured both wife and for less then were previously paying kemper generally hate the whole insurance game realize that necessary but the way that person can get dicked around doesn make any sense one good thing about geico that everything can handled over the phone suggestion stay where you are shop around but stay away from geico jeff larry keys csmes ncsl nist gov fahrvergnugen forever the fact that need explain you indicates that you probably wouldn understand anyway
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all time article apr jpl devvax jpl nasa gov nancy hayduke nancy feagans writes ashtrays and cigarette lighters these should option nancy feagans jet propulsion lab nancy jpl devvax jpl nasa gov not shred evidence exists favor the idea that life serious you forget that the cigarette lighter plug essential for plugging radar detectors and lights the ashtrays are also essential because they are great places keep change and tokens
rec.autos	 curious about knowing which commericial cars today have engines don know any legend don know any jaguar xjs please add the list thanks ssave ole cdac com
rec.autos	are ford shop manuals good planning buying repair manual for ford taurus the ford shop manual comprehensive enough covering repairs all aspects the car how about the haynes manual for tarus please email replies possible thanks advance jerry
rec.autos	car saftey important article conradie firga sun conradie firga sun gerrit conradie writes much discussion about economics safety deleted safety important criterium for when buying car won buy small car like civic whatever great safety handling speed for seems that you would more dead small car than large car after accident this very simplistic view safety assuming that you are collision less likely with more agile smaller car then the important factor how well does the car sacrifice itself save you this why thousand pound car can hit wall and the driver walks out and why everybody dies when suburban hits wall recall for the last generation suburban hic numbers aside just what the point airbag seems that seatbelts with pretensioners audi good tight point belt will prevent you every moving far enough hit the airbag you might saved from some flyign glass airbag just lowest common denominator safety device that some use head collision when you are wearing seat belt craig gerrit
rec.autos	need info bonneville little confused all the models the bonnevilles have heard the lse sse ssei could someone tell the differences are far features performance also curious know what the book value for prefereably the model and how much less than book value can you usually get them for other words how much are they demand this time year have heard that the mid spring early summer the best time buy neil gandler
rec.autos	camrys eating clutch master cyls have both and camry each with manual speed transmissions the has about miles and the about miles about year ago found that the master cylinder the clutch the was leaking fluid around the piston seal leading air the system and fluid back into the passenger compartment the car pulled the plunger and got rebuild kit new plunger seal etc and thought had the problem licked much surprise the same problem developed several months later this time looked carefully the master cylinder make sure there were scratches burrs other obvious causes the problem didn find any ever since have been periodically feeding the clutch hydraulins additional fluid and bleeding air from the system knew would selling the car and didn want all the way solving the problem should add that the clutch original and that had adjust the pedal allow maximum extension the piston into the master cylinder order actuate the clutch hypothesis that this means that when fully depressing the clutch pedal the angle the piston rod attached the pedal off the axix the cylinder thus cocking the piston and seal and perhaps deforming what you think that explanation can you suggest possible fix short replacing the master cylinder and getting new clutch put now the same problem except that the above diagnosis doesn explain why all the fluid leaked out way the master cylinder into the passenger compartment while was vacation for days during which the clutch pedal was not depressed otherwise caused distort what can you suggest here many thanks let hope don end going click and clack this bill christens barry cerulean access digex com
rec.autos	auto wax having recently purchased probe with clear coat paint would like give good wax job what the best type wax use for this type finish paste liquid better would waxing hand and buffing hand guess using cheesecloth buff anything better you would suggest heard comments here before about things like turtle wax and raindance not being very good wondering what recommended for quality finish thanks advance bill bill heiser heiser acs edu heiser world std com boston university boston
rec.autos	noisy engine article apr ultb isc rit edu adn ritvax isc rit edu writes the sound describes common any older toyota engine ever heard don know the relevance his observations about oil changes simply makes noise not all that annoying mind you but you hear well when the engine right behind your left ear think those with would describe the engine sweet little loud those with can imagine any unbiased person paying any compliments sounded like dormmate rusty chevy chevette with the would want redline just for the music with the would short shift that would shut the new camry features balance shafts guess since the getting the axe too late for them anything about this mystery that the turbo only liters the engineers had enough integrity prevent any further abuses also europe the non turbo was also only liters usual the undiscriminating american market japanese must good gets the dogs fair also got the turbo which the europeans did not eliot
rec.autos	ford probe opinions centered around the article apr ncsu edu chuck eos ncsu edu chuck kesler writes jeremy mereness zonker cmu edu says can anyone offer any opinions the ford probe ala how they the long run repair records reliability mileage etc some other owners the ford probe world std com mailing list have commented about this problem but haven seen happen month old probe think this may something that ford has corrected since the initial batch cars also someone said that ford has issued service bulletin inform dealers about how correct this problem you may able get your dealer fix have had probe looked twice local dealer where purchased the car the first time they made this problem worse the second time after advising them the service bulletin mentioned ford probe mailing list they said they didn know the bulletin they adjusted the window and made much better however now makes scritch scritch noise rough roads and still squeals when open close the window wet weather anyone elses this ford only gives key with the car mon ford spend extra few pennies got two keys with car but only one remote entry push button thingie but then bought with miles and think may have been repossession not surprised something was missing horn buttons behind air bag spokes and not center personal preference seriously considering following the advice the owners manual where describes the procedure follow you discover something your ford that could cause serious injury threaten lives etc something about notifying the national traffic safety group well ford those little you got position the fingers perfectly make beep buttons are terrible the latter probably because the air bag pretty much takes all the space where you expect find the horn speaking the horn was surprised find that the probe comes with one those nice merican sounding horns instead the japanese sounding kind the previous probes had japanese horns well guess that good way but way bad when someone hears that kind horn they expect see big american car they may not associate the sound with small jap car style car like the probe tires fling dirt mud onto side car yeah not very badly but enough annoying sometimes the mudflaps help lot transmission the speed must have always been speed guy almost every car ever owned has been speed because got good deal this car with the miles knowingly overlooked the fact that has automatic but pretty high tech automatic fully electronicaly controlled speed with torque converter lockup even with the automatic getting mpg the highway driving but course driving illegal probably made that sentence around town the mileage has been around not bad for automatic course doesn have the control speed but since lot city driving turns out very convenient nice able drink cup coffee and drive the same time although that too illegal here like control your life massachusetts shake rattle noises when going over bumps potholes still shakes and rattles has been main gripe gotten them fix the worst them but fear that with the rather harsh ride the car will virtual potpouri rattles when gets older tires goodyear eagles left hoping for probe got about out the original goodyears and had driven the replacement tires bridgestone miles when tradeed the car the firestones probe look like they designed for performance rather wide shallow tread etc they probably won last long but the car handles very very very well sticks the road like glue even rough surface interior very very nice too very pleasing the eye and ergonomically sound definitely ford mazda did very very nice job this one the car has much more expensive than actually look and feel yes this car stiff suspension isn for everyone personally like but you find little harsh but otherwise like the car strongly suggest looking into the having driven probe for years find the suspension interesting the car actually drives much better than the very firm ride and you definitely know about each and every bump the road yet the car remains very civilized even the bumpiest roads you hear and feel the bumps yet the car retains its posture very well you have passengers all means bring them along too they find that they have room the back and you find that the car rides differently that better you well wouldn encourage passenger carrying the probe unless the person the front seat likes sit with his knees the dash mentioned the consumer reports write ups consider the back seat parcel shelf biggie though had been not have bought the car but definitely not family car also there lot glass around you which wasn expecting the temperature inside the car gets pretty hot the summer must any probe from the particular sends out real blast cool air when the max that lots glass you mentioned what gives the car the very good visibility reports you see all the write ups most sports sporty cars don have that good visibility heard that the exhaust system has trouble but mine works fine haven heard about this one know that some the very early probes and maybe had problems with prematurely rusting mufflers which the complaints heard exhaust system have been the course being different engine that differeent exhaust system was one those with who qualified for the free replacement since had already replaced the muffler when received the notice was due refund from ford applied february and still waiting gave free rental car for the day and half that was without car was quite happy with the way they handled especially considering that was expecting the worst from them yes was pretty amazed when had car for some touch adjustments this past week and they had keep overnight too busy for them get and they offered pay for rental they did make pay for taxes and insurance though from what heard sounds like ford mazda had some problems with the probe and probably when they first went into production but think these problems have mostly been corrected this point that almost always expected with completely new car like this though have agree that they seem have some problesm but seriously feel the car design sound and expect very well bill heiser heiser acs edu heiser world std com boston university boston
rec.autos	water trunk probe article apr news arc nasa gov chung pioneer arc nasa gov sum chung acf writes tommy szeto writes water gradually builds the trunk friend ford probe every once while would have remove the spare and scoop out the water under the plywood carpet cover the trunk would guess this usually noticed this probe also when recently cleaning out the back think the water coming through some rubber stoppered holes beneath the spare mine looked slightly worn and there was water water damage have the same problem with probe the water definitely not comming from the rubber stoppered hole beneath the spare have remove the rubber stopper drain the water seems like common problem with probe there known problem with the seals the taillights probes complain loudly your dealer and get them install new seals known problem present most not all pre probes you shouldn have pay them fix case they fixed extended warranty just had pay deductable the work was valued something like with labor and parts having removed the tail lamps myself other occasions think their estimate was fair bill heiser heiser acs edu heiser world std com boston university boston
rec.autos	rush was too fast article apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes article mentor purdue edu marshatt feserve purdue edu zauberer writes article unisql uucp wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes remember roads america are not designed for speeds above meaning they would safe roads like the autobahn are smoother straiter wider and slightly banked well that news before the speed limit texas highways was the speed limit the new jersey turnpike was there were speed limits nevada montana guess wasn clear enough here said the roads were designed for speeds and still safe the current will add saftey margin actually the roads were designated safe when they were built the taking into account the kinds cars then available the number would much higher today because the cars tires and just about everything else has imprivoved lot believe the interstates were origionally funded part national defense plan etc the requirements were move heavy army trucks mph still its amazing germany you can have cars traveling mph and mph the same lane road around washington they can keep traffic flowing dirk
rec.autos	old corvettes low insurance and corvette prices article rjnc sxmg jqh netcom com rjn netcom com richard newton writes article apr lehigh edu swr lehigh edu scott warren rosander writes article csux news cso uiuc edu gdhg uxa cso uiuc edu george hei writes after too many years school finally graduating and getting real job course trying make plans how spend all this extra money right now have accord good car but not real sporty was thinking selling about two years and dropping around sports car some kind after thinking about may have better idea keep the accord until drops and buy the car always wanted corvette stingray reasoning that accord corvette less than what would spend anyway basically thinking late early for around question what are good years consider for reliability looks horsepower that order believe not horsepower not main concern want fast get motorcycle and what are good prices vettes had the same basic chassis add aluminum weaker rear axle housing all these years used same brakes similar springs etc late was bad year for reliability catastrophic converter was added cheapest corvette low end about tops out about except for those morooons that think there indy aniversity vette special these guys have been known ask don think they get best buy convertables got for needs body work but willing parts for all are readily avail swap meets and mail order etc reliability looks independant suspension wheel disk and all under and they thought miata was good deal also what would insurance look like male single might wait until get the car lower insurance would the fact that mainly drive the other car lower there some type classic car rarely driven insurance class for driving under miles per year dad has vette and its what you say classic insurance basically what that means that has restricted amount driving time which basically means cant used every day car and would probably suit your needs for limited mileage origional inquires insurance agent can drive convertable for miles less per year must keep locked garage and will cost the stated value per year does this sound right also been looking vettes recently and found convertible that like dealer currently own ford escort which insured through state farm called and asked about the rates sell the escort the vette insurance per months keep the escort the vette insurance per months the escort insurance goes down approx per months male and have good driver discount another variable would where you live best bet just call some insurance brokers and get quote state farm says they base the price the fair market value the car which determined outside apprasier they look the newspaper and call dealers find out what the going rate and adjust for the condition the car get the values above they went the selling price the car the dealer asking price need research find out this reasonable any case told state farm the value was get appraiser look the car will check serial numbers and look for origional equipe depending what mods have been done the car could worth only problems like wrong engine trans wrong paint type vetts used lacquer modification would reduce tthe value but your looking for car drive right this sounds like ball park price for small block manual air car would put closer get appraised for insurance purposes also
rec.autos	geico glad this forum came been pricing insurance lately and had considered geico but more any company with practices like theirs can stay with liberty mutual steve nicholas wells computer center georgia state university oprsfnx gsusgi gsu edu risk not risk until taken
rec.autos	 probably the most famous the one cadillac made from about they had scale down then because the great depression really put the crimp luxury cars had cubic inches with over two hundred horse power they don make them like they used there were others though packard had one until about whe down sized their legendary twin six their mainstay for the next twenty years lincoln and pierce arrow might have also had one but not two sure most luxury and semi luxury cars this era least experimented with they did not actually produce them there was actually cylinder war among the big three see who could produce the biggest engine big standard disclaimer applies because can think anything wittier
rec.autos	review ford taurus sho review ford taurus sho gene kim background last week bought ford taurus sho moving from driving toyota celica and oldsmobile cutlass have been interested buying sho for about five months and have been combing the classifieds denver and chicago every week bought remarkably clean maroon red sho with miles for far can tell this about under blue book and still have another miles before the extended service plan runs out one should with any pre shos made sure that the car was already refit with the upgraded clutch and pressure plate well having been recalled for upgraded rotors and seatbelt attachments however sho does not have the newer rod shifter understand can get this for from any ford service center addition the car received the full tune miles receiving new platinum plugs and valve adjustment for car with miles the car was virtually immaculate the clearcoat paint job was devoid any large chips dents although the front air dam molding was covered with lots small scratches not surprising since most the miles were spent the highway having driven smaller two door coupe for long was bit concerned about whether could get used driving larger car surprise the size the car doesn bother all seems just nimble celica comparisons with oldsmobile visibility from the driver seat excellent helped mostly the small the quarter windows aft the back seat door windows and front the pillar and rear window parallel parking bit more difficult but other than that love the size fact starting appreciate the large trunk pack for hour drive washington for the summer more the ride later this review engine with anyone even slightly interested shos was very interested the valve yamaha shogun engine was not disappointed base performance the engine under rpms good you can even reasonable launches from second gear although don make practice this the engine revs smoothly and eagerly tooling around town does not require many shifts this good since the shifter definitely one the weakest points the car more this later while the performance the engine under rpms may unremarkable undergoes jekyll hyde transformation once you hit higher revs rpms butterfly valve opens and you can literally hear and feel the geometry the engine changing twelve more valves open the engine soars its rpm redline and you are treated opinion the sweetest sounding around the engine inexplicably sounds overjoyed rpm noticed that when drive around town constantly watch the tach see how far below rpm from rpm you may have punch the accelerator while torque more than adequate doesn come fully online until those other valves are used transmission when car and driver first reviewed the car they marvelled how ford had put such wimpy clutch and balky shifter into the car remember driving friend parent sho and remember thinking about whether had the leg strength drive the car traffic the clutch was that stiff that was back then the entire clutch assembly sho has been replaced under ford recall the clutch the sho feels stiffer than the one toyota celica fact the friction point seems bit larger and more forgiving when playing with the shifter with the car parked the shifter felt very reasonable the and gates were where you expect and the shifting action was smooth the road much the same but you have shift slowly make mistake clumsy shifter when hurrying shifts like when was initially trying impress friends consistently miss the shift often grope clumsily for the shift and sometimes even muff the shift find this pretty amazing car like this also took several days realize that you get the smoothest shifts when you take your time seems obvious but compared toyota and friend honda this seems atrocious and clumsy someone rec autos noted that crxs should blow shos off the line because the incredibly clumsy shifter now shift much more sedately and the shifter seems more reasonable when you play within these bounds the shifter works smoothly with surprises don know whether the rod shifter upgrade would help all along these same lines initially had trouble shifting gears smoothly again slowing down the shifts and taking more care match revs when letting out the clutch helped immensely this took several days for get the hang think some problems were because never had car with enough power balk bad shifts higher gears occasionally have trouble shifting into reverse the shifter refuses enter the gate and often grind the synchros trying get into gear watching this carefully the next couple months quirk when upshift and the engine drops back rpm hear whirring and then grinding noise coming from the the engine compartment not terribly loud but the passenger can definitely hear asked about when was looking the car all passengers apparently this definitely sho sound and the gearbox apparently called gear rollover replies queries rec autos are the end this review exterior mentioned before astounded how well the body this sho has stood paint chipping the front bumper and grille are virtually non existent looking how older tauri sometimes don age gracefully wonder what the guys ford did differently the sho bodies the body opinion extremely attractive with matching color body moldings than the stock tauri for some odd reason the sho seems different enough from vanilla tauri get stares stoplights course this could overactive imagination shos get fog lights more open grille completely monochromatic exterior and deeper ground skirt the back with sho stenciled relief seen couple shos whose owners have colored these with florescent colors black yuck don think the car flashy like that way feel almost anonymous with all those tauri out there but different and distinctive enough those who care interior the interior what really makes feel like don deserve the car the seats are grey leather the steering wheel and shifter are covered with black leather and the entire instrument panel done black grey metallic scheme the instrumentation stock taurus except for the mph speedo and rpm tach you get center console with two cupholders large compartment under the radio great for player armrest that contains yet another compartment three appropriately sized coin holders for tollways think and compartment for holding cassette tapes there map holders the doors and oddly small glove compartment spilled whole can coke the cupholder and was delighted find that the entire rubber holder can removed and washed sink hey really impressed with the ergonomics and thoughtfulness that went into its design and before the interior was upgraded the backseat bigger than any car had why they need much space smart ass comments please the driver and passenger seat have lumbar and side bolsters from what hear not uncommon for the side bolsters show wear mine exception the left side bolster the driver has cracked and not convinced the right bolster inflating all the way big surprise for forgot that shos don have normal hand parking brake instead they have the regular parking brake that you press with your left foot too bad again getting used but seems bit anachronistic ride the suspension nice and stiff too stiff stiffer than any car had friend new toyota celica seems tauter and still able soak bumps better the sho seems stiffer with less ability soak bumps driving over railroad tracks noisy and jarring affair the other hand taking turns feels wonderful because the body rigid and doesn flex all listened for that before bought the car the highway the ride great when drove the car from chicago back purdue had trouble keeping under mph let alone from trying see what mph really feels like relatively quiet ride but the sunroof rattles tried find out what exactly makes all the noise there but seems the window that rests the rails easy way get rid think over the past three days oscillated between thinking the suspension wonderful and perfect and thinking that the ride way too rough not for mind you but wonder whether would advise dad buy one for himself but discovered with the shifter you take your time with shifts you have reason complain let explain the ride worst when turning and applying lots power the wheels feel the wheels scrabbling for traction and torque steer making the car skitter left and right after understood this avoid the limits traction and happy camper again not body rigidity but the composure the car matching the suspension the steering feel quite heavy first impression driving sho was how hard you had turn the wheel highway speeds tracks straight arrow but when driving around parking lot the high effort steering didn seem useful however reasonable but doesn communicate the road the driver well ford probe imho much better than the steering celica wonder how bad this car during winter miscellaneous notes gripes the rattles from the sunroof intermittent some days rattles loudly other days look wondering where all the noise went activating the sunroof sometimes very noisy loud squealing retracts its rails wonder there quick fix for this again other days completely disappears function humidity once made the connection between the sometimes awful feeling suspension and torque steer never complained about ride wish the seats had more support under the thighs also wish the side bolsters would close more tightly hear that tires for this car can get really expensive currently have goodyear that cost the previous owner for four used hate the ford stereo systems whose idea was use volume paddle now amazement don really mind and sometimes think okay idea pretty ridiculous though getting rpm sometimes seems chore but this big deal there more than enough torque down low often goof the shifting when driving with friends took couple days before could really shift smoothly from gear hard believe isn car has almost miles parents noted that almost impossible find low mileage sho astute observation imho wonder how long can make sho last just bought book titled drive forever for tips this department the goofy parking brake pedal still throws for loop once parked the car gear and then accidentally let out the clutch after started the car jolted forward and bounced off the car front paint damage all but starting the car whole new ritual for with that fangled pedal also began wonder how strong that brake really today backed out parking spot today and started drive away before noticed the glowing brake light oops the driver power window creaks when closed all the way the same thing happens parents mercury sable oddly all the other windows work smoothly likes liking the interior amenities more and more each day the cupholders are great didn expect use the keyless entry buttons much but really handy you can lock all the doors pressing the and buttons together neat and you can never lock yourself out the car really feel like don deserve this car really can believe that could afford got this car ten years ahead schedule love this car much that been telling parents look into buying one love this car much that wrote this file meant write couple lines and ended with this there were powers survey for used car owners would have opportunity express incredible satisfaction owning this car don like thinking about getting another car but this point time sure buy another sho for under you can beat next time with airbag and abs though insurance wise this car also big win pay the same premiums toyota celica despite that has nearly twice the horsepower other odds and ends much amazement there sho mailing list anywhere maybe because the sho registry publication has filled this void haven joined yet but noticed that queries about shos still appear rec autos about once month owners shos are always quick respond and are very vocal fans the cars maybe some the most vocal rec autos put together the responses questions about the cars well other posts with useful information these cars posting this the form faq soon anyone interested starting mailing list please speak don know have the resources here purdue start one but maybe someone out there does gene kim genek mentor purdue edu
rec.autos	 article apr telxon mis telxon com joes telxon mis telxon com joe staudt writes legend honda prelude nope cylinder don know any you didn try very hard lexus infinty several each wasn aware that there was another infiniti with besides the bmw one model series several the liter and liter mercedes one two models one two there least one for every platform except the compact class sel sel and roadster acura one model can remember the name right now acura doesn have any cars the moment jaguar xjs bmw mercedes xxxsl and sel the other sls and are and inline six
rec.autos	last the interceptors does anyone know what kind car mad max used road warrior they called the last the interceptors couldnt tell what was was chopped thanks
rec.autos	water trunk probe article binnfja tamsun tamu edu jlong emcnext tamu edu james long writes article crn transfer stratus com tszeto sneezy stratus com tommy szeto writes water gradually builds the trunk friend ford probe every once while would have remove the spare and scoop out the water under the plywood carpet cover the trunk would guess this usually happens after good thunder storm few this common problem where are the drain holes located for the hatch noticed this probe also when recently cleaning out the back think the water coming through some rubber stoppered holes beneath the spare mine looked slightly worn and there was water water damage above the level the spare area have the same problem with probe the water definitely not comming from the rubber stoppered hole beneath the spare have remove the rubber stopper drain the water seems like common problem with probe sum chung email chung ames arc nasa gov
rec.autos	car saftey important article apr bnr tcorkum bnr trevor corkum writes was recently thumbing through the lemon aid new car guide what found was car would given recommended under the picture while few sentences later noting how driver and passenger were virtually guaranteed killed front end collision the most highly recommended small car the civic has the worst crash rating all the small cars listed there were many such cases great vehicles where you wouldn survive accident only safety not one the most important factors when buying car imho the best way reduce risk when operating vehicle being able avoid hazards and for that reason preferred vehicle motorcycle when use four wheeler primary reasons are will keep dry will keep warm will carry more cargo the four wheeler has much collision protection the average motorcycle then has enough form how you define safe one definition safe without risk chas dod how can you two places once when you not anywhere all firesign theatre
rec.autos	the mustang the current will soldier for about two years version the valve modular the mark viii could offered then how unfortunate for anyone who loves the simplicity with which and fords and and chevys can built still will provide needed punch for the ford stay with the new firebird camaros wouldn surprise ford called the engine litre the mustang all know that the current really litres anyway undisguised the car looks but not nearly exciting the new camaro firebird imo must agree don think seen anything impressive looking the new firebird since friend back home sold his formula firebird for paltry without even telling the bastard george howell george howell goucher ffv ampr org
rec.autos	broncos does anybody have any information the second generation broncos not talking about bronco referring the broncos that began production based the chassis believe need know what look for can the tops removed from all models how easily can that done also what kind price range should looking what blue book college right now and would like jeep unfortunately got bit ride school and need carry lot junk and from the dormitory the spring fall think that the bronco with the removable fiberglass would better read bigger choice than even better anybody the maryland virginia area interested selling one george howell george howell goucher ffv ampr org
rec.autos	noisy engine yeah seems toyota has always had problem with those and sound know the celicas with were pretty noisey and the were exception now about large displacement with bad noise have grand quad and sounds really good almost like larger now toyota coming out with all new celica next year and the well who knows later chris
rec.autos	impala going into production apr ucsu colorado edu dunnjj ucsu colorado edu dunn jonathan james writes uznerk mcl ucsb edu andrew krenz writes personally like the looks the impala the caprice was definately weird looking until this year when they made the rear wheel openings look more like normal car but the impala impresses can exactly shove the everything they make you know only the bigger stuff like see next series pickup that would hot setup what about full size blazer well would this engine have the gobs torque necessary for off roading this would even better than the syclone well blazer wouldn come close gmc typhoon speed think its too heavy right now the normal engine has plenty power for full size blazer course not saying shouldn put the seems like they have real winner with that engine why spend much more money into getting valve dohc when you can take even seems get pretty good gas mpg for that talking about impala will this the door caprice body just curious chevy trying resurrect their door muscle cars compete with the european super sedans yeah flat black lowered door caprice riding aluminum rims and eagle tires the rest the car basically caprice ltz read plush police package with horsepower heard that chevy resurrecting the monte carlo but that going get their dohc and not the jon dunn andrew krenz uznerk mcl ucsb edu krenz engrhub ucsb edu
rec.autos	legal car buying problems article sydn megatest com jao megatest com john oswalt writes however you agree some terms and then when about sign the dealer slips you contract with different terms and leads you believe that embodies the terms you verbally agreed that fraud there day limit restitution for fraud you may have sue and win get out this you will almost certainly have threaten sue the other hand remember the old adage that verbal agreement isn worth the paper printed once you sign you are going have one hell time proving fraud based comparison what you thought you were going sign being the right one thing proving another brian gordon briang sun com briang netcom com gordon genie compuserve bgordon aol
rec.autos	jetta gli help considering the purchse jetta gli with miles recently found out that there are two versions the gli and know three differences between the two cars that both carry the same name the version has more horsepower wheel discs and standard sunroof oops that the difference between the gli and the regular addition the engine what other differences exist between the two models the jetta gli more importantly how can tell which version this one there are badges that said inclined think that the version assuming this one the one looked the version there valid reason buy instead comparably equipped which would cost less course would love get the version but money talks please email any responses thank you peter volpe albnyvms bitnet
rec.autos	question nissan owners gurus esp models purchased used nissan non turbo last year had question gear rpm ratios right now mph rpms mph about rpms this about the norm auto neophyte just wondering these are the proper ranges somehow the rpm figures seem high friend mine just told can hit mph his chevy beretta also anyone know the top speed attainable redline for this model not that would try but would interesting factoid thanx derek fire and love the two extremes wojciech ossek nrl navy mil that live between fire and love there more life than surfing snowboarding the eye can see guardian ridin the wave
rec.autos	the mustang they beat ford the market with the camaro firebird but really only words production these vehicles will limited until the end the year keeping selling prices above msrp for the most part since there are many twitching camaro fans out there drivel received delivery trans weeks after ordered promised weeks and paid over dealer invoice which discount off msrp only have about miles but far problems and seems very well put together the way first year production will about cars dealers would like you think there shortage but considering they only sold about bodies last year and the new model was introduced mid year that not going create shortage planning ramping about bodies next year according wsj article several people have mentioned seeing photo the mustang popular mechanics saw photo motor trend january issue direct side view although they described seriously handsome car with broad shoulders thought looked pretty boring that view roofline reminded toyota celica yuch description mechanicals same has been reported from the article terry quinn germantown hills tquinn heartland bradley edu from compuserve internet tquinn heartland bradley edu
rec.autos	what car this you guys are correct the bricklin was produced canada the national museum science and technology here ottawa has one and sometimes they put display most the time stays storage because the museum doesn have much room big deal for car canadian and that why they have anybody fan they also have nice green riviera that looks like just came out the showroom mike harker ottawa ontario canada voice
rec.autos	questions about insurance companies esp geico wlsmith valve heart rri uwo wayne smith writes article mimsy umd edu davew umd edu david wonnacott writes considering switching geico insurance but have heard that they not assign specific agent for each policy claim was worried that this might real pain when you make claim have also heard that they try get rid you you have accident read this group that geico has funded the purchasing radar guns police depts not sure where maryland and other states the original poster read the last issues car and driver about this interesting and should illegal chintan amin the university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	geico goldberg oasys navy mil mark goldberg writes rec autos jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister writes suggestion stay where you are shop around but stay away from geico strongly agree with jeff here horror story many years back switched geico from state farm save some have relatively new sports car for which covered with liability collision and comprehensive with this make car new models came out january not september like other makes the car was purchased august that year also had much older clunker for which only wanted liability low and behold vandal slashed the roof the sports car and put claim this was october still the current model year for the car new top with installation was had deductible should have gotten you had geico local office have adjuster see the car unlike state farm that sent the adjusters the shop your place said since the car now one year old depreciate the top you get the claim this will also count accident against you your rate may increase the hassle continued then got letter from geico saying claim denied your policy this car doesn cover this then learned that their records had the full coverage collision etc our old clunker and only had liability for this new car they mixed our cars their records fixed the top myself with some carpet thread and dropped claim they still charged with accident cancelled policy and switched another company the coup gras came when they sent bill for additional balance due for the difference collision comprehensive cost between sports car and clunker returned the bill unpaid with nastygram plus explicity directions perform recto cranial insertion haven heard from them since everyone entitled opinion goldberg oasys navy mil imagination more important than knowledge albert einstein good for you convinced that someone should start boycott against geico any takers chintan amin the university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	looking for low lease rate toyota previa what the best lease quote that anyone has seen toyota previa all trac for two year lease you know where can get better rate than month please contact with the name and phone the dealership will estes internet westes netcom com
rec.autos	toyota coralla for sale toyota corolla radio nothing else low mileage ride bike work dark blue good condition only leaving the country for year and must sell this great city car call renee fecteau leave message not email this account
rec.autos	bmw looked that bimmer yesterday has about kmi according owner odometer stopped working kmi drivess well sounds good body wants liked the car despite auto tranny but wife will primary driver this one and she wants auto the radio does not work untill the car warms and you honk the horn the seems have leak the sunroof sticky but operational odometer does not work mentioned before idle bit bouncy going from rpm rpm wipers are slow that teh gripes the owner says that changed radiator alternator rotors and calipers exhaust the biggest problem that the owner shifty sob telling strange stories hate that would never buy from persom like that except how often you see descent for that amount money also said that although could bring mechanicin wouldn let check the car taking garage suspicious and who knows what milage let know what check for given there practically rust know there was article few years back anybody remembers what issue mike
rec.autos	compilation problems chevy caprice caprice classic with miles has finally reached the threshold total number mechanical problems that forced post anyone out there who might able give some pointers one more the below please mail post when making turns especially when accelerating there usually loud thunk from the rear the car sounds like could the differential what could cause this the differential going bad recently had the differential fluid changed and did have tiny metal bits and the sound not something rolling around the trunk starting the car get blue oil smoke from the exhaust for seconds exhaust valves going bad worn rings anyone know whether the valves the tbi engine can lapped brakes more pedal travel than feel comfortable with but master cylinder full and fluid relatively clear pedal does not slowly sink the floor when held down pedal does not feel spongey but suppose that bleeding the brakes might help could anything else cause this tranny tranny problems seem slowly getting worse takes almost seconds downshift from heavy throttle application and more recently reluctant shift from fluid checked with car running with tranny put through all the gears and then back park per haynes manual red and clear and full mark springs all around are just about shot have new shocks but car still skips out bumps turns moderate high speed how hard are they change can they reconditioned interested hearing from any full size rwd owners out there with stories tell and advice here philly these cars are apparently stolen quite often and converted into taxis apparently the cab conversion shops will get junk title for the car switch vins with car about junked about philly cabs are caprice with most the rest being crown vic with few old new yorkers and impalas broughams andrew white awhite mcneil sas upenn edu
rec.autos	market access article apr eecs nwu edu andrew eecs nwu edu andrew sung hyun kim writes what about the rice import issue course not closed like shell but how open compared japan much more open than korea yes pontiac grand suffers factor increase price when exported japan however dodge vehicle the one that congressman gephardt mentioned suffers factor increase price when exported korea ford taurus suffers the same problem honda accord costs not making this korea just how many people would want buy honda accord for solution all ships carrying korean made vehicles should returned seoul pronto until such time korea decides that wants abide the rules free and fair trade with the usa and japan sayoonara ooo ooo jinsei imi nan desu imi nai umarete kurou shite yatto shinde shimau semete shinde kara itsu made anshin dekiru kami sama ima irasshaimasen
rec.autos	 ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes curious about knowing which commericial cars today have engines don know any legend don know any jaguar xjs please add the list thanks ssave ole cdac com the viper isn inline flat pretty sure its also the cizeta but may not yet more than dream chintan amin the university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	sport utility vehical comparisons any opinions from article minn cronkite cisco com kmac cisco com karl elvis macrae just read articals this road and track and car and driver that one mag two and was wondering people out there have any opinions that differed from what these mags have say looking the following three suv anyone who driven all three have any strong opinions ford explorer toyota runner nissan pathfinder currently leaning toward the toyota cause had big success with toyota trucks the past and cause think the best looking the three but thought see anyone has any strong opinions thanks karl agree that the toyota the best looking just didn fit plus the highest cost all the ones you mentioned have good friends who have all three the trucks you talked about the ones with kids all went the ford because the room required carry couple kids and all the junk you need the single ones went for the toyota and the nissan every one has been happy with what they bought although one into serious four wheel off road driving karl elvis macrae software release support cisco systems kmac cisco com batman cisco com dod shovels and rakes and implements destruction arlo guthrie bentz puryear ncsc bep tsc maplewood ave englewood colorado powder skiing the path salvation
rec.autos	market access article apr leland stanford edu underdog leland stanford edu dwight joe writes article apr eecs nwu edu andrew eecs nwu edu andrew sung hyun kim writes what about the rice import issue course not closed like shell but how open compared japan much more open than korea yes pontiac grand suffers factor increase price when exported japan however dodge vehicle the one that congressman gephardt mentioned suffers factor increase price when exported korea ford taurus suffers the same problem honda accord costs not making this korea just how many people would want buy honda accord for solution all ships carrying korean made vehicles should returned seoul pronto until such time korea decides that wants abide the rules free and fair trade with the usa and japan now now before get too carried away here keep mind that owning any car korea luxury that only the ruling class can afford every government agency worth its salt finds some reason levy tax car ownership last heard there were seven different fees pay own car believe this the sort petty bureaucratic inefficiency that new president kim young sam wants eradicate basically think the rules came into place bureaucrats from plebian backgrounds wanted wreak revenge the ruling class exchange zaibatsu like hyundai screwed over smaller companies perpetuating vicious cycle have faith that korean people can potentially build cars well anyone else but for now hyundai cars seem reflect the tensions within society screwy components that won work together stubborn like mule the car either won forward won stop all
rec.autos	emergency brake nissan maxima just quick simple question really how many wheels are affected the emergency brake nissan maxima heard that all four are affected but this would seem unusual thought the emergency brake most cars only affected the rear wheels also how powerful the emergency brake usually enough lock wheels mph hmmmm just have wonder about some the things hear outatime
rec.autos	thoughts the corrado was curious what people thought the corrado that about outatime
rec.autos	market access article acf agate berkeley edu robohen ocf berkeley edu henry robertson writes now now before get too carried away here keep mind that owning any car korea luxury that only the ruling class can afford every government agency worth its salt finds some reason levy tax car ownership last heard there were seven different fees pay own car believe this the sort petty bureaucratic inefficiency that new president kim young sam wants eradicate basically think the rules came into place bureaucrats from plebian backgrounds wanted wreak revenge the ruling class exchange zaibatsu like hyundai screwed over smaller companies perpetuating vicious cycle have faith that korean people can potentially build cars well anyone else but for now hyundai cars seem reflect the tensions within society screwy components that won work together stubborn like mule the car either won forward won stop all hahahahahaha gasp pant not sure whether the above was just silly remark serious remark but case there are some misconceptions think henry robertson hasn updated his data file korea since mid owning car korea longer luxury most middle class people korea can afford car and have least one car the problem korea especially seoul that there are just many privately owned cars well taxis and buses the rush hour has become hour phenomenon and that there place park last time heard back january the kim administration wanted legislate law requireing potential car owner provide his her own parking area just like they japan also henry would glad know that hyundai isn the only car manufacturer korea daewoo has always manufactured cars and believe kia back business well imported cars such mercury sable are becoming quite popular well though they are still quite expensive finally please ignore henry posting about korean politics and bureaucracy quite uninformed brian chung happiness this sig was brought jfe alchemy cornell edu tea earl grey hot you frungy the jfe cornella bitnet lake apt sport kings cesr thc ithaca
rec.autos	honda clutch chatter anyone else experiencing similar problem this concerns the clutch honda accord speed when the clutch first used the morning about the first miles shifting there significant amount clutch chatter until things warm then the clutch shifts smoothly this chatter started when moved the san francisco bay area from low humidity environment the dealer stated that this known happen since honda changed from asbestos non asbestos clutch material remedy seems that moisture clutch surface causes slipping until the moisture evaporates any comments out there
rec.autos	honda civic saturn info needed anyone with experience about honda civic saturn would interested knowing how reliable these cars are how expensive they are own and operate parts maintenance gas insurance the dealers are good and they actually live their economy image another question what would expect pay for civic coupe with automatic air and radio mail the address below post this group thanks rob bell plains nodak edu
rec.autos	houston auto insurance hello moving houston rice university for graduate school will living the corner mian and university blvd was wondering what kind liability rates expect here the relevent info sex male age status single commute none walking car ford crown victoria door anyone can check the above info similar situation please mail the rates they find out pay thanks for your help advance colello delphi com colello cheshire oxy edu
rec.autos	buying used car have few questions about the tax used car purchase live new york state and going buy used car know that will have pay tax when register the car but would like know tax payed the book value the car the purchase price also what tax rate used the owner lives albany tax and will living saratoga with tax pay albany tax saratoga tax the difference whole one more thing how much does cost for the usual year registration did leave anything out what else might have know purchase and register used car never done this before thank you peter volpe
rec.autos	noisy engine article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes article apr ultb isc rit edu adn ritvax isc rit edu writes the sound describes common any older toyota engine ever heard don know the relevance his observations about oil changes simply makes noise not all that annoying mind you but you hear well when the engine right behind your left ear think those with would describe the engine sweet little loud those with can imagine any unbiased person paying any compliments sounded like dormmate rusty chevy chevette with the would want redline just for the music with the would short shift that would shut the new camry features balance shafts guess since the getting the axe too late for them anything about this mystery that the turbo only liters the engineers had enough integrity prevent any further abuses also europe the non turbo was also only liters usual the undiscriminating american market japanese must good gets the dogs fair also got the turbo which the europeans well the music ears often turn stereo off and just run towards red line nice twisty roads but toyota engines idle have strange bells and whisstles the bottom matal can sound can describe any better just like all the older benzes have very characteristic clattering sound idle you know what referring mike
rec.autos	opel owners article usenet ucs indiana edu mliggett silver ucs indiana edu matthew liggett writes manta are also hot and fun cars too hahahahahahahahahahaha thanks for that haven laughed much ages kevinh hasler ascom
rec.autos	questions about insurance companies esp geico article mimsy umd edu davew umd edu david wonnacott writes considering switching geico insurance but have heard that they not assign specific agent for each policy claim was worried that this might real pain when you make claim have also heard that they try get rid you you have accident interestend determining whether not these things are true has anyone out there with geico made claim interested hearing whether not you were satisfied with the service and whether you then had trouble renewing your policy also interested any good bad stories about liberty mutual state farm geico supports reads gives police laser radars they have been known very picky sports cars radar detectors although maryland insurance board over rules this consistantly turbos basically seems you need use your insurance ever they don want you they once told they wouldn insure perfect record because corvette even though would insured another specialty insurance must insure all the cars think this rep didn know what she was talking about geico cheap but you ever file claim prepared dropped think most areas two tickets will geico will never see dime from can help state farm slighty higher than most but very good response not picky geico
rec.autos	opel are the any opel out there wondering there are enough starting mail list matthew singer mit lincoln laboratory wood street singer mit edu lexington
rec.autos	keyless entry now how bruce james writes without the key though the steering column lock would have sacrificed not necessarily maybe some sort servo lock something along those lines could used acheive the same effect maybe solenoid type thing too george howell ooo ppp aaa rrr ppp aaaaa rrr ooo ford better living through american horsepower george howell george howell goucher ffv ampr org
rec.autos	impala going into has always screwed the rest the divisions favor the corvette the current platform exception the detuned camaro and firebird load crap keep people from realizing that they can buy one these instead corvette and save about like the idea impala but they really wanted impress they would throw big phat imagine the cops their taurus police package and litres they stare your taillights george howell ooo ppp aaa rrr ppp aaaaa rrr ooo ford better living through american horsepower george howell george howell goucher ffv ampr org
rec.autos	mercury villager minivan good buy article ydwp ncube com bob ncube com bob kehoe says either choice good but beware that did not experience reasonable mileage with the average city driving was mpg with about avg the highway nissan quest has been doing mpg city though its first few tanks were more like mpg the and are remarkably smooth johnny stephens sig file upgrade backorder will distance learning technology here any day now arizona state university opinions expressed are mine
rec.autos	 article apr lehigh edu lehigh edu danny phornprapha writes getting car the near future narrow down and which might better choice having driven both and having owned for months now all can say depends they both great cars fact wife and are saving our pennies can get her the convertible year the handles like dream while the rides like dream fit and finish both are excellent but the lexus gets the nod customer satisfaction they both very attractive and hideously expensive the resale value the better than the the isn available with traction control which makes handful slippery surfaces jim battan sequent computer systems beaverton battan sequent com uunet sequent battan
rec.autos	geeko waz geico annoyance article noose ecn purdue edu rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu robert wade writes you want annoy geico call them give fake name but real car specs get quote and then tell them they are more expensive than your current state farm allstate insurance they will still send you quote etc then you can tear their quote and stuff the prepaid return envelope and mail back them actually they were more than current state farm rates actually had bad habit stuffing whole bunch other garbage junk mail along with whatever else into anybody prepaid envelopes until they almost burst believe they pay postage weight heh heh heh anyways don tear the quotes just yet sometimes use their quotes other insurance quotations leverage haggle for lower rate elsewhere usually works your advantage they are lower aaron
rec.autos	what car this article innk ctron news ctron com smith ctron com lawrence smith writes article apr reed edu rseymour reed edu robert seymour writes article apr wam umd edu lerxst wam umd edu where thing writes was called bricklin bricklins were manufactured the with engines from ford waitaminnit didn the bricklin have pugeot six cylinder confusing with the delorean was sure the delorean had the delorean had the yucky prv engine joint venture between peugout note spelling renault and volvo prv this engine mighty boring piece junk with approx doesn like revs all you look the delorean the movie back the future you will note that they changed the engine sound big real delorean doesn sounds half good you will also note that every time they have spin the tires the movie the ground all wet this because delorean can make burnout dry road the weak engine thats mounted over the rear axle makes almost impossible markus larry smith smith ctron com don speak for cabletron need you ask liberty not the freedom whatever want the freedom whatever are able
rec.autos	manual shift bigots kissane black berkeley edu john kissane writes matter interest does anyone know why autos are popular the while here europe they are rare just wondering many cars sold here finland are small and cheap cars least when compared other cars note that have over car tax and you couldn expect good auto mated engine most the bigger cars are however sold with autos
rec.autos	mgb questions son considering the purchase mgb which has been substantially restored the odometer has rolled over but can sure the actual mileage the engine and drive train apparently weren touched the restoration except for new carb and few hoses plans vacuum and compression checks see what they might tell about the engine the body and undercarriage have visible rust the interior new are tires front brakes not sure about the back battery bumpers and other misc parts the paint checked few places and scuffed here and there allegedly wind blown car cover seemed handle except for soft front shocks questions are there problem areas common mgbs should check out the brakes seem soft and rather ineffective what should expect the way braking action seemed doggy when accelerating from stop what should expect given the cylinder engine the top place but will not reach number the snaps the weather was cold should the vinyl stretch and fit when warms forever shrunk normal for the wire wheels painted are they usually chromed given this rather limited description what would reasonable price gee this turned out little long sorry while brother once owned jag what car obviously not into sports cars any help with these questions suggestions other things investigate would surely appreciated phil truesdale truesdal david wheaton edu
rec.autos	states that charges sales tax after trade which western states have laws that charge sales tax the difference between new car price and the trade value know california charges you the full value the new vehicle regardless trade you are california resident legal buy car state other than california without also paying california sales tax how does california enforce any law that requires you also pay california sales tax top the out state tax will estes internet westes netcom com
rec.autos	warning please read article apr voodoo boeing com tomm hank boeing com tom mackey writes you have the power steve you can why don you why don you shoot some kids who are tossing rocks onto cars make sure you good job though don miss cause like they have big rocks and take from those kids are mean that absolutely correct they have streak meanness that runs much deeper and stronger than anything ever experienced even during the height the racial struggles absolutely convinced that there are kids out there today that have concept right and wrong but have the human intelligence which turning them into the greatest predators that have ever walked the earth they will prevail unless the rest humanity decides that their best interest stand against these feral humans and for individuals start taking some responsibility for their own protection state which the individuals turn the authorities and police for protection the police and government soon composed the very feral humans that they originally sought protection from and thought the nutters were the ones throwing the bricks from the bridge gee guess you touched hot button better cool off somewhere institution tom mackey tomm voodoo boeing com boeing computer services uunet bcstec voodoo tomm box seattle kevinh hasler asco
rec.autos	said nissan altima best seller article uflh srgenprp com markg com mark goldsworthy writes just bought altima and like very much and yes there little stanza logo ever discretely placed the trunk the altima emblazoned big silver letters but the itsy bitsy stanza shunted the far left the trunk lid you can only see you get close the car and know where look very inconspicuous fact first clue that this was stanza was that the owners manual called the car nissan stanza altima anybody know why nissan did this way avoid paperwork associated with certification brand new car etc for purposes brand new nameplate for paperwork still stanza spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos kocrsv delcoelect com software technology delco electronics hughes electronics kokomo post therefore armm
rec.autos	pennsylvania insurance limited tort option article oasys navy mil glouie oasys navy mil george louie writes coverage this also applies existing car insurance policy does anyone understand what the limited tort option means will lower rates opt have will more expensive opt have what does for layman terms please good deal should ignore not the type sue anyone drop the hat nor the type report every little ding limited tort option will lower your rates you choose you can sue others for pain suffering but you still can sue for economic loss you can sue for your wrecked car and for medical bills but you can sue for for pain and suffering least that how understand michal
rec.autos	manual shift bigots article dxp lut jahonen lut jarmo ahonen writes kissane black berkeley edu john kissane writes matter interest does anyone know why autos are popular the while here europe they are rare just wondering many cars sold here finland are small and cheap cars least when compared other cars note that have over car tax and you couldn expect good auto mated engine most the bigger cars are however sold with autos would guess the high price gas europe compared the has always favoured cylinder manuals small engines with autos are real bore but why not turn the question around why are automatics common the guess that when they tried couple manuals the torque rich the sixties the clutches turned out real killers you had use both feet depress and that this has just lived and also automatic with engine can real fun drive markus chevy camaro peugout speed don ask what your car can for you ask what you can for your car
rec.autos	questions about insurance companies esp geico would gladly spend twice the money for insurance rather than using geico not only they supply radar guns the police they also want make radar detectors illegal they also ask you have detector probably put you high risk group just refuse insure you know few people who were droped geico due accident that was not their fault rob gallant oasys navy mil
rec.autos	compilation problems caprice classic with miles has finally reached the threshold total number mechanical problems that forced post anyone out there who might able give some pointers one more the below please mail post when making turns especially when accelerating there usually loud thunk from the rear the car sounds like could the differential wheel bearing ujoint starting the car get blue oil smoke from the exhaust for seconds exhaust valves bad valve stem seals brakes more pedal travel than feel comfortable with but master cylinder full and fluid worn pads rear brakes not adjusted tight worn out drums low pedal complaints usually are from rear brake problem tranny tranny problems seem slowly getting worse takes almost seconds downshift from heavy throttle application and more recently reluctant shift from fluid checked with car running with tranny put through all the gears and then back park per haynes manual red and clear and full mark possible modulator valve equipped with one also could the kickdoen cable springs all around are just about shot have new shocks but car still skips out bumps turns moderate high speed how hard are they change can they reconditioned difficult front easy rear they are not expensive about for front and less than for the rear its also kind dangerous work the front springs without the proper equipment don slmr put spot remover dog spots gone olde bailey bbs bis bis houston texas yob sccsi com home alt cosuard
rec.autos	extensions was wondering what the country extension are sometimes just don have clue from where some people are writing these are the extensions know switzerland sweden finland com edu are both com and edu france please feel free add this list markus chevy camaro peugout speed don ask what your car can for you ask what you can for your car
rec.autos	review audi quattro been while since reviewed car but today paid visit old friend whose love for audis has been overwhelming that makes not too sucessful living selling them without further delay will get the audi servotronic steering for those who are not familiar with what servotronic the name for the speed variable power steering manufactured and used audis and bmws have been outspoken damming servotronic over the past couple months and this was based magazine reviews and drives the audi quattro and the audi fwd quite happy report now that the the servotronic inoffensive suppose that due the fat gumball tires the servotronic has been loaded more and this far has been the best implementation that have tried far from perfect mind you and much happier was option that could refuse but the longer consider this bad enough where feel the entire car ruined the steering still tad too light but accurate and suppose the stiffly sprung chassis sends back much information that some makes through the driver hands there feel and there accuracy the steering but there also room for improvement consider the steering better than the japanese competition primarily because the japanese not believe feel and engineer out completely engine wheee what pressure cooker with just miles the clock did not expect the producing anywhere close what will putting out miles later but still the car packs terrific punch for turbocharged machine very unusual that encourages lazy driving low revs high gear supremely flexible that one could hardly believe that there only liters displacement move this pound car around such fashion with maximum torque available rpm and rpm redline the car can pretty much left third all day which translates speed range something like mph chracteristic that one normally associates with large capacity the technical achievement breadthtaking throttle response right there with good atmospheric engine fact would even put peaky multivalve engines shame downshifts are almost unnecessary more fun use the overboost feature than rev the engine for those not familiar the engine features seconds additional turbo boost for passing sort like lighting the after burners jet fighter one could with the right foot only third gear blast the car from just few moments simply flooring the gas far the numbers maximum torque available overboost mode shoots about incredible for liter takes few moments for develop overboost but well worth waiting for since this quite heavy car one body parts are not flung around like say the corrado the acceleration smooth and strong somewhat similar riding jetliner accelerates down the runway takeoff also one treated very distinctive and entertaining whistle from the turbo the only entertaining sound come out very refined but bland sounding banger yes audi has refined the the point where rpm sounds serene does the smoothness outstanding but not quite the standards very good valve bmw say that terms refinement willingness rev smoothness lack harshness under full acceleration better than many however lost the refinement process the characteristic cylinder bark that made the older engines characterful not terribly refined the valve turbo sounds pretty bland except for the whistle under full boost subjectively rate the engine being far more musical than the turbo also audi own also far more musical with rorty race car growl when pressed though none these can match its grunt the only hint the engine true capacity occurs when one taking off from rest after the turbo has come near stop with the extra inertia from the permanently engaged system one has somewhat delicate feeding the clutch prevent embarassing stall alternately one could use more revs both cases very small price pay for such fantastic engine think that audi america should offer automatic option for this car just they offer though extremely small numbers speed for the much peakier the characteristics the engine are perfect for automatic ironically europe slush available but none offered for the land the slush marketing twits rearing their ugly heads again chassis noticed that audis tend have very wide wheels and relatively modest tire widths the car comes with firestones size which not uncommon all however the very attractive spoke wheels are less than inches wide there sidewall bulge whatsoever combined with the flared wheel arches the has mouth watering macho yet subdued look rough concrete becomes immediately clear that the new body style has made significant advances structural rigidity well road noise suppression suppose the two are inter related but digress use cliche the body feels like has been carved out stone flex totally undetectable even when going over rough roads with super rigid body like this stiff springs and stiff dampers not cause excessive harshness and while the ride quality will never worry lexus will also not draw comparisons trucks pony cars the servotronic steering has already been mentioned consider inoffensive because did not inhibit spirited cornering was able test the car cornering powers without too much trepidation think new concept work this car with its fat gumball tires talking about understeer oversteer practically meaningless banked highway ramp went slow and started applying power went around could feel the forces build the point where the skin face was being tugged sideways yet the car was totally and completely obedient throttle and steering inputs felt that the limits were not even close being approached the forces were thrilling but the entire affair going around curve strangely uninvolving you tell the car what you want and does end story think that starting relate more and more those reviewers who were highly impressed the honda nsx clinical efficiency but were unable fall love with the car the brakes have very good firmness them and stop the car pretty well too though read that they are prone fade not too surprised since the does not have uprated brakes over the base audi fwd harder pads would help but that turn would lead more wooden response when cold starting see trend among the luxury sports sedan makers where extra weight not being offset additional braking capacity the fade performance nothing brag about neither the the legend brake fade these days seem forgotten virtue when everybody attention focused anti lock capability comfort for car with such sporty abilities its comfort levels are also excellent the cabin beautifully appointed with carbon fiber panel inserts place the wood trim the all the expected gizmos are there heated seats power seats seat memory power this and that the glaring ommision was the trip computer which was removed because audi hasn gotten work reliably yet that means that the car has boost gauge real disappointment taking into account how much the turbo dominates its performance unusual for the germans the comes with honda style moonroof well the very intelligent dial sunroof position rotary switch noise levels including engine and tire noise low that wouldn consider the lexus advantage this area significant enough sway potential buyer conclusion even though few will able afford audi its sticker price the car bargain one takes into account what has offer over the competition the valve turbo real gem even doesn produce ferrari sounds other luxury sports sedan maker offers the utter security quattro all wheel drive which some worth the extra money all itself the safety features are also top notch side impact standard compliant the very elegant automatic seat belt tensioners and the dual airbags the series audis have been outstanding government crash tests gets thumbs for being overwhelmingly capable rather than being all out exciting and intoxicating eliot
rec.autos	houston auto insurance article apr cheshire oxy edu colello cheshire oxy edu robert colello writes hello moving houston rice university for graduate school will living the corner mian and university blvd was wondering what kind liability rates expect here the relevent info sex male age status single commute none walking car ford crown victoria door anyone can check the above info similar situation please mail the rates they find out pay thanks for your help advance colello delphi com colello cheshire oxy edu suggestion look your current insurance card there will name accross the top telling you which insurance company you are insured call information houston and get the number branch office the houston area call the insurance company your rates will vary depending the amount coverage you want you want carry comp and collision probably not what your driving record you mentioned none these things your posting how can anyone give you accurate information like said pick the phone and make few calls won kill you jeff
rec.autos	service indicator bmw derek there tool available reset the service indicator bmws but the lights will come back after weeks the tool fact illegal europe atleast often the case that the unsuspecting punter trots off buy used bmw and few weeks later all the lights come other than that know other tool anyone else about changing oil every miles thats newer audis they only require after every miles talking about oil change just query you drive your car very very carefully like sudden acceleration etc yeah then the oil change seems quite reasonable but you drive kinda fast get bit tight abot that thingy point note just because the first light came doesn mean all the others will come every too shaz
rec.autos	noisy engine just quick note the nwe shape the when they first came out here there were models the base model had auto box and engine from the camry well recentyl found out that this model longer profitable for toyota and have since scraped also noticed that auto have depreciated lot more than the next model surprise surprise huh you lucky americans have the turbo such luck over here shaz
rec.autos	rfi art clutchless shifting used drive truck few years back once rode with old codger that had been driving for about yrs the only time would use the clutch was get the truck moving could shift that speed lightning quick down without the slightest rake gear was smooth silk was the most amazing shifting demonstration ever seen having said all that still don know why anyone would want shift synchronized tranny without clutch why
rec.autos	service rip off article apr chpc utexas edu ivab chpc utexas edu albert writes went place called american car care centers check car for leak after checking was told that there leak the compressor seal the end addition the labor for the check was charged dollars for pound freon although they evacuated afterwards because the leak first fair for him charge for pound freon plus tax second what can about this this unfair albert for the information those not lucky enough live the city austin auto system checked and found have leaks must repaired that time evacuated this ordinance unique think the city austin freon subject increasing taxes but about cost here recovered freon not required purchased from the car withdrawn from matter practice some shops here are charging recycling fee that less than the cost the freon removed reintroduced the system just another quality service from enviornmentally conscious city rick kirchhof austin texas experience what you domain rick posms aus get when you don bang path cfi org posms rick get what you want
rec.autos	warped brake discs taurus article apr advtech uswest com joe advtech uswest com joe thielen writes xref sun rec autos misc consumers newsgroups rec autos misc consumers path sun actcnews psinntp psinntp uunet wupost zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu csn cherokee joe from joe advtech uswest com joe thielen subject warped brake discs taurus message apr advtech uswest com sender news advtech uswest com radio free boulder nntp posting host absoraka advtech uswest com organization west advanced technologies references apr bcrka bnr dmerrill apr ryn mro dec com date wed apr gmt lines article apr ryn mro dec com balsamo stargl enet dec com antonio balsamo save the wails writes from dmerrill bnr dana merrill subject warped brake discs taurus anyone else had the same problem well have taurus apparently they still haven fixed the problem with the rotors got miles the clock and getting the rotors and pads replaces tonight expense course tony owned ford mustang that had endless brake problems the bad thing was that had all other kinds problems too spent months the shop the first years owned bought new got rid and will more than likely not buy ford product the future the thing that really ticked off was how ford treated they were such jerks was unbelievable joe the past few years have owned mustang gts and now own bird they all have had this problem there was recall the bird for the brake problem the ford dealer replaced the rotors and pads but the rotors warp after about miles between this problem and the fit and finish problems the bird never buy ford again bruce winters bsw utrc utc com united technologies research center hartford usa
rec.autos	manual shift bigots jahonen lut jarmo ahonen writes kissane black berkeley edu john kissane writes matter interest does anyone know why autos are popular the while here europe they are rare just wondering many cars sold here finland are small and cheap cars least when compared other cars note that have over car tax and you couldn expect good auto mated engine most the bigger cars are however sold with autos here australia most cars are manual privately owned anyway why not sure think has something with the fact that our car industry the past was more closely aligned with europe than the the past now aligned with asia scott scott fisher scott psy uwa aus perth local department psychology university western australia perth nedlands perth joy jaguar with flat battery blown oil seal and unsympathetic wife outside small remote town cold wet winters morning
rec.autos	honda clutch chatter article hpindda cup com jimb hpindda cup com james bruder writes from jimb hpindda cup com james bruder date wed apr gmt organization information networks cupertino path eclipse yktnews watson ibm com hawnews watson ibm com newsgate watson ibm com news ans net howland reston ans net usc sdd com hpscit com hplextra hpcss hpindda jimb newsgroups rec autos lines anyone else experiencing similar problem this concerns the clutch honda accord speed when the clutch first used the morning about the first miles shifting there significant amount clutch chatter until things warm then the clutch shifts smoothly this chatter started when moved the san francisco bay area from low humidity environment the dealer stated that this known happen since honda changed from asbestos non asbestos clutch material remedy seems that moisture clutch surface causes slipping until the moisture evaporates any comments out there have been having problems with slightly different clutch problem prelude see rec autos tech for more detail problem false engagement point below the actual one also seems affected weather most noticeable and annoying damp cold days dealer says can reproduce the problem think just sell the car jeff goss
rec.autos	nissan nomenclature was manual shift bigots wanted rec autos grahamt phantom gatech edu graham thomas writes what currently know the known elsewhere graham thomas blah blah blah blah blah this kind interesting always assumed that the was named because the liter engine which uses likewise for the which uses liter engine isn this true george
rec.autos	pennsylvania insurance limited tort option opinion the limited tort option the best thing casey has ever done basically limited tort means that you give your right sue for pain and suffering unless one the following conditions met your medical bills resulting from the accident exceed where some number like not sure the exact number the accident was caused drunk driver mean the other driver was drunk you get good lawyer and have good case basically you can appeal regain your right sue but there almost chance this ever happening you are only giving your right sue for pain and suffering you can still sue for medical costs actual damages etc agreeing limited tort you are essentially giving your right asshole who treats every accident entry into the litigation lottery exchange you get substantial reduction your rates save year unfortunately the insurance companies have managed scare and confuse people much that only about pennsylvanians for limited tort guess that more people opted for the insurance companies would pushing harder for repeal
rec.autos	what car this the bricklin was car manufactured company started malcolm bricklin who believe was canadian was the first one import subarus and later was responsible for importing yugos believe anyway had this idea that what would really sell would sports car but one incorporating bunch innovative safety features the bricklin was built that queerest beasts the safety sports car any you remember the early movement among car makers design experimental safety cars you will recognize the general appearance the bricklin big bumpers etc anyone recall other safety features the engine was american ford think right personally kinda like the way they look and remember from the old magazine articles the performance was only half bad the choice colors though tended towards the lime green yech but highly visible suppose the delorean the other hand was dog nice looking imo but motor all dan andrew cmu edu carnegie mellon university applied history have standards you don like them have others groucho
rec.autos	honda clutch chatter article hpindda cup com jimb hpindda cup com james bruder writes anyone else experiencing similar problem this concerns the clutch honda accord speed when the clutch first used the morning about the first miles shifting there significant amount clutch chatter until things warm then the clutch shifts smoothly this chatter started when moved the san francisco bay area from low humidity environment the dealer stated that this known happen since honda changed from asbestos non asbestos clutch material remedy seems that moisture clutch surface causes slipping until the moisture evaporates any comments out there the clutch honda civic the does this too annoying now that think about worse when the humidity high the dealer also claims there nothing they can since the clutch self adjusting hydraulic design yeah right doug zolmer internet dwjz bnr disclaimer opinions only bell northern research ltd ottawa ontario canada dept service control point routing services design conform moooo
rec.autos	what the deal with blue book value auto newton convex com vicki newton writes the process buying new auto haven decided yet whether should sell current car myself trade part the new auto purchase know that the blue book value for the car acquaintence has offered give blue book value for the car just wondering this standard measure for negotiating resale price can hope get more money from someone else what exactly blue book value based know that for its year car has low mileage excellent working condition but does have few dings the exterior nothing major any these facts alter the fair selling rice the car not looking rip anyone off just naturally want get the best price for the car thanks million veek think the blue book the nada handbook for used car prices the blue book value given the retail wholesale value the blue book value isn set stone though low milage extra addons and stuff like that there can increase the resale price the car you may want head over the local library borrow your friends blue book and read that sort stuff paid under retail for civic and was perfect condition and had only miles the guy was desparate sell new kid the way etc but was good price remeber both you and the buyer has any sort brains all are using the blue book you should pick fair price chintan amin llama uiuc edu chintan amin the university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	what the deal with blue book value auto article apr news eng convex com newton convex com vicki newton writes the process buying new auto haven decided yet whether should sell current car myself trade part the new auto purchase know that the blue book value for the car acquaintence has offered give blue book value for the car just wondering this standard measure for negotiating resale price can hope get more money from someone else what exactly blue book value based know that for its year car has low mileage excellent working condition but does have few dings the exterior nothing major any these facts alter the fair selling rice the car not looking rip anyone off just naturally want get the best price for the car thanks million veek dealer will make money off you three ways you let him new car markup over his cost remember his hold back arranging financing through the dealership and screwing you the trade keep the deal with the dealer simple eliminating buying car dealer cost meaningless makes the trade and gets kickback from the bank blue book you need know you talking average wholesale average retail good guide value for car you are selling yourself try get average retail and chances are you have done careful selling acquaintances you ever want them become friends fowler gtri esml chris fowler gtri gatech edu
rec.autos	pontiac option codes wanted does anyone have listing pontiac three letter option codes and what they mean thanks oliver oliver scholz nem graduate student computer sciences the university erlangen germany you killing peg shut like care
rec.autos	thoughts the corrado article apr galileo rochester edu uhura rochester edu outatime writes was curious what people thought the corrado that about outatime hauls butt handles nice but junk drove brand new one for day loaner the key was already rusting seems they stamp their keys out pot metal all the controls seemed really junk clutch was heavy door locks power buttons sunroof controls etc seemed really cheap way would pay for this baby airbag either also drove svx for day stickered but going out the door for much better buy imo although more sports touring coupe roomy etc the corrado more small sports car the ergonomics and leather the svx was twice nice the corrado both had smooth strong engines
rec.autos	marten problems everybody well don know this known problem you the big state but over here europe some places just happened and payed lot get new honda civic repaired marten choose car stay one night and this damn little animal damaged almost everything which was plastic rubber never thought that these little could that much damage all you car owners out there there good known method gettin rid this animal except for waiting all night long beneath car with gun help any form would appreciated very very much mail scheer faw uni ulm thanxxxx all
rec.autos	geico annoyance you want annoy geico call them give fake name but real car specs get quote and then tell them they are more expensive than your current state farm allstate insurance they will still send you quote etc then you can tear their quote and stuff the prepaid return envelope and mail back them actually they were more than current state farm rates
rec.autos	best radar detector valentine from article apr sequent com troy sequent com troy wecker earlier commented the valentine and jimf centerline com replied about the value the units bogey counter didn really into why called this feature gimmick here more explanation thanks jim for the good comments and opinion from what understand the valentine can only tell these microwaves are coming from the front rear both there are only two antennas they are coming from both this interpreted side bogey bogey counts are determined sources their relative strength one another even they are reflections the same source sounds like your analysis based hypothesis and not actually using the valentine like give some feedback based real life experince keep the valentine advanced logic mode and rarely lights christmas tree the only time does when the middle major shopping area and then makes sense that does since there are sources coming from many different directions have found the valentine consistent its reporting bogeys regardless any moving cars the area have found the directional indication very useful one case there was two radar traps set within one mile each other passed the first radar trap the direction indication changed then the detector was set off again pointing the forward direction with other radar detectors would have assumed that this was due reflection but with the valentine knew there was high probability that there was another trap and there was other occasions the directional helped discern false alarm from true alarm for example pass source the direction indicator changes the directional also allows focus attention where the signal might coming from instead having look all over the place when car approaching from the rear with detector that leaks can tell that the signal coming from the rear and the car passes can verify the source with other detectors would have been unable this and would have had assume that there was radar trap when there was none had the valentine for several months now and find its added features useful and not gimmicks barry barry frishberg blf apollo com chelmsford expert center chelmsford
rec.autos	rush was too fast still its amazing germany you can have cars traveling mph and mph the same lane road around washington they can keep traffic flowing germans are just more organised you can blitz all europe matter what months unless you pretty organised tried that there just whole bunch tanks backed the border waiting for some jerk the right lane trying get over make left turn this course caused germany invade belgium one the important lessons history that anything including late afternoon thundershowers will cause germany invade belgium dave barry happy motoring jmr blue green the most inventive asshole ever met really puts lot energy into
rec.autos	help with mitsubishi galant transmission need your help with problem have with mitsubishi galant transmission the car has speed manual tranmission since the car was bought new while shifting from unless slowly and carefully makes popping hitting sound the dealer and mitsubishi customer service reached say this normal for the car and about year ago kmiles the stick shift handle got stuck while attempting put reverse the shifter would not budge the clutch had effect the front tires would not budge even when the clutch fully depressed the clutch released the engine would die assuming that some gear was engaged while the shifter was stuck could not make the car move acted were neutral except for dying when clutch released finally was able release the shifter having someone rock the car back and forth less than inch while depressed the clutch and jiggled the shifter the shifter acted normally after that when this happened took the dealer they checked the clutch was they checked the transmission was had the exact problem couple months ago and again last week the dealer says there nothing they can because mitsubishi the says they have never heard the problem and the dealer could not reproduce the problem while they had the car all three occurances the car was parked head first garage and since the front wheels were stuck the car could not towed the dealer before releasing the shifter hence temporarily solving the problem and the dealer and mitsubishi refused send someone check the car while was stuck know there smething wrong with the transmission shifting from and getting stuck random but can get the dealer fix need your help with the mechanical problems and with how handle mitsubishi all hints and suggestions are greatly appreciated and sorry bore you with the long post thanks rabih
rec.autos	choice gauges article ybo vcd com dmunroe vcd com dave gauge writes you had free reign design your own instrument cluster which gauges would you choose have beyond the basic set turbo boost necessary turboed car fuel reserve warning coolant level warning would also nice have gauge that would cycle across the different sensors the system such sensor altitude air flow love get tranny and diff brake temp would great and big ass tach sean from the labs balderrama mitchell reifschneider and wahlstedt inc sean reifschneider ruler the realm jafo accum com
rec.autos	drag coefficients could someone explain how make sense drag coefficients mentioned magazines understand that lower numbers signify better aerodynamics but what does this mean the real world there way calculate new top speeds assuming the car not rev limited top speed mileage benefits identical car had the reduced from thanx
rec.autos	alarm systems are they worthwhile talking about car alarms there are certain cars this country that are only insurable they are fitted with vecta alarm talking coswoths and porsches and stuff just before they the insurance companies decided make this move they insisted that the car fitted with scorpion alarm now they changed the vecta everyone who spent fitting the scorpion alarm have founbd themselves having upgrade the vecta system sad huh shaz
rec.autos	comparing saabs bmw dont know about saabs but whenever there long temr tset magazine they always say that tehy are little annoying niggles which keep occuring every often wouldn expect that from such quality car why doesn anything like this ever happen bmws maybe coz they quality cars shrugs repentently shaz
rec.autos	lexus and infiniti yeah and bmw has litres btw can someone out there please tell how put someone else file and then reply that the other person file and own reply the newgroups together just mail personally thanx advance
rec.autos	warning please read enough already let take this discussion some other newsgroup that more appropriate most are tired and would like get back old cars imho chuck lampman chuck lampman gstrf gatech edu
rec.autos	autos dealer article apr porthos bellcore com tvl prefect bellcore com lam thanh writes got price quote for camry abs from toyota dealer eatontown came back that dealer two weeks sign purchase agreement then was told that the salesperson made error pricing walked out that dealer wonder this kind practice common with toyota dealers the price quote written the salesperson business card binding would appricate any comments had similar experience had written quote which had been mailed from the salesman one these haggle toyota dealers for camry xle abs leather etc the price seemed fair but when went take them their offer they discovered that certain extra cost items hadn been included their original written quote would have totaled extra and spite the fact that had written quote they said there was nothing they could bottom line quotes from salemen are worthless and appears that the toyota dealers think they got such superior auto that they don have deal walked went out and bought new car eagle vision tsi and don regret one bit thad mcculloch mcculloc mail lds loral com
rec.autos	toyota land cruiser worth tvervaek col com tom vervaeke writes wife and looked and drove one last fall this was model was wayyyyyyyyy underpowered could not imagine driving the mountains here colorado anything approaching highway speeds have read that the new models have newer improved engine quite serious that laughed the salesman face when said once broken will feel more powerful had been used driving jeep engine believe the land cruisers land yachts were the sames the runner which also underpowered own personal opinion they are big cars very roomy but nothing spectacular tom vervaeke email tvervaek itc com hewlett packard phone love animals they taste delicious the land cruiser has engine which has and torgue when drove here california power more than enough the high price the only reason did not buy
rec.autos	dirty diesels hhd harvey gte com horace dediu writes article nataraja opal nataraja rtsg mot com kumaravel natarajan writes heard the diesels are considered cleaner burning than gas engines because the emit less carbon monoxide hydrocarbons and oxides nitrogen nox but they can put out lot particulate matter heard something about legislation being discussed clean diesel emissions there anything the works install scrubbers for diesels how about the feasibility installing them trucks and cars would any different than catylitic converter assume easier since removing particulate matter instead converting gasses let hear people opinions this really bugs the emissions diesels are the cleanest any vechicle but they are considered polluting that they are banned passenger cars california what bunch crap diesel the fuel choice for enviromental benefit europe while here illegal for the same reason the particulates are nothing but carbon they are just annoyance worst nothing beats the diesel cycle for efficiency and emissions torque engine durability also cheaper just clear things why posted the question that way was debating with worker about diesels claimed they were cleaner burning than gas engines said the extra junk put out them was offset the savings greenhouse gasses made all the same claims you did but one question his was what about the carbon said was harmless but wanted know how get rid suggested scrubbers figured would harder more expensive install than cats does there exist any designs for scrubber like know just answer his final question convinced him that diesels are cleaner otherwise btw named subject dirty diesels because knew would get reaction out people who knew they were cleaner than gas engines and that they read vel natarajan nataraja rtsg mot com motorola cellular arlington hts
rec.autos	 remove legend from the list steve morris internet smorris sumax seattleu edu addiction studies pgm uucp beaver uunet gtenmc dataio sumax smorris seattle university phone dept direct seattle
rec.autos	diatribe sold opels was opel owners gibbonsa fraser sfu darren gibbons writes looking for information opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth not entirely sure but two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking friend has one sitting his yard really nice condition body wise but transmission has seized him hasn run for while does anyone have any info these cars the engine compartment looks really tight work but fine shape and quite interested that would the opel sold this country from originally had engine which was later replaced the was based the old kadett drive train and suspension with leaf springs the rear and single transverse leaf spring the front looked good but was limited performer there has also been some discussion this thread about the manta and other models opel introduced new line models the series that were also known model numbers etc these cars had the newer engine and were available two and four door coupes station wagon and sport coupe known europe the manta the same time there were two series cars which sold very few numbers that also had the engine but the kadett suspension the sport coupe model was also available the rallye with blacked out hood tach and fog lights but was mechanically the same except for numerically higher rear end ratio the sport coupe was also named the manta the was the last year for the any country both because the bumper height regulations and the fact that fiat exercised option the factory that opel was leasing build the gts the series continued with minor body differences the manta sedan also called the ascona and the wagon were available with bosch electronic fuel injection these cars also had larger brakes and wider wheels these cars were starting compete with the buick century low price leader the time and were the last opels imported into the from cars that sported buick opel badges were still sold the buick dealers but were rebadged isuzu marks the idea was call them opels instead changing the dealers neon signs various models the series cars dominated the showroom stock racing the their class and were known serious competition parts are still available from number sources still have manta and two sedans and all the trick parts could collect years john kennedy uunet opel johnk second source inc johnk secondsource com annapolis
rec.autos	honda headrest stuck advice please aquaintence has accord the driver side headrest was accidentally put backwards and has jammed according the dealer the only way get out spend several hours disassembling the seat this the second time have heard this happening and wonder whether there easier way get the headrest back out has anyone else ever dealt with this problem your advice would appreciated please email and will summarize there interest dan dyndata com dan everhart uunet camco fluke dyndata dan fax dynamic data electronics edmonds usa rhe rone rike rhe rone rike rhorane astro sings cocaine
rec.autos	mbenz series passat jcorry erasure emory edu jeremy corry writes new series mercedes benz wagon particularly would like hear about power manual only any comparisons between the saab line and the mercedes would helpful manual transmission must have then the not the running you cannot get manual transmission that car north america seems that buyers here maybe more accurately the distributors are not interested manual trannies the line comes with engine all earlier years are have with mere and auto tranny and find that has sufficient power for any normal driving situation more always nice but can complain test drove saab cse last fall here are impressions awesome power especially over rpm when the turbo really comes you get the power really hard tight corner the front wheel drive causes understeer heavily and then viciously hook into the corner not desirable handling trait but common powerful front drive cars the cse mercedes rear drive does not have this problem huge interior and cargo space the most rubbery shifter have ever encountered drove spd was absolutely numb you might able get used don know also didn like its location which was too far down and too far right from the shifter position got the impression that saab really designed the car for automatic was rather noisy engine buzz rattles and creaks mercedes does not exhibit these characteristics you should also check out the new bmw touring this wagon version the fits into the class with the and saabs michael chmilar chmilar apple com
rec.autos	what the deal with blue book value auto mail bounced article apr news eng convex com you write the process buying new auto haven decided yet whether should sell current car myself trade part the new auto purchase traditional wisdom says you are almost certainly better off selling yourself you don mind that extra hassle having trade purchase just makes getting the best price from dealership more confusing know that the blue book value for the car assume this retail bluebook there are two bluebook prices one for retail and one for wholesale you really want the retail price you can get the blue books also have adjustments you can make for low mileage and extras your particular car you should look all this stuff yourself also keep mind that the blue book prices are averages over the country that may not apply your area for example blue book prices are low for california better way finding out how much your car might worth call around and see what selling for any used lots have one looking local papers for similar cars and checking out the prices might more time efficient take small loss rather than hold out for months for the best price acquaintence has offered give blue book value for the car don know what you mean acquaintance but would make darn sure that was paid that cashier check full before delivery there real temptation when selling pseudo friend more accomodating than you should make sure you get the money and they hedge about paying full the start with cashier check cash then would elsewhere rememeber that you can probably sell your car used car lot wholesaler and get wholesale bluebook that probably safer approach than selling private party alan mountain dew and doughnuts ames elroy alan because breakfast the most important meal alan elroy jpl nasa gov the day
rec.autos	questions about insurance companies esp geico article mimsy umd edu davew umd edu david wonnacott writes considering switching geico insurance but have heard that they not assign specific agent for each policy claim was worried that this might real pain when you make claim have also heard that they try get rid you you have accident interestend determining whether not these things are true has anyone out there with geico made claim interested hearing whether not you were satisfied with the service and whether you then had trouble renewing your policy also interested any good bad stories about liberty mutual state farm stay away from geico recent car driver issue has article about geico giving free laser guns police departments increase they speed limit enforcement the article also said that you get speeding ticket your premium will increase dramatically based how much over the limit you were remember correctly more than over you get something like increase you have radar detector you will denied coverage dropped immediately one accident claim and you will dropped after many years with geico father who had tickets and had made claims had accident and filed claim was dropped immediately since then has been with state farm for years with complaints have been with state farm for about years complaints travis
rec.autos	mercury villager minivan good buy article ydwp ncube com bob ncube com bob kehoe writes curiously and consider these are test vehicles found the mercury higher build quality than the nissan this very curious being that they are both built mercury the very same factory steve stephen yavorski internet yavo ivy paramax com nexrad integration phone paramax systems corporation ivyland pennsylvania
rec.autos	drag coefficients article apr wdl loral com gwm spl spl loral com gary mahan writes could someone explain how make sense drag coefficients mentioned magazines understand that lower numbers signify better aerodynamics but what does this mean the real world there way calculate new top speeds assuming the car not rev limited top speed mileage benefits identical car had the reduced from don remember the formula off hand has been awhile since took aerodynamics and haven used the stuff since the related the drag force which what effects top speed and fuel consumption when the drag force the car aircraft greater than what the vehicle engine can overcome has reached its top speed autos course also have overcome rolling resistance since drag opposes the vehicle motion the engine must make for that burning more fuel anyway since the geometery auto rather complex the drag pressure coeffiecent etc either found experimentaly using numerical method anyway for flow around cylinder the drag coeff where the drag force the flow velocity and the radius the clyinder get rough very rough estimate you can set the car width the car speed and knowing the find the drag force that the car would need overcome
rec.autos	what the deal with blue book value auto toll for insurance companies and auto dealers rip you off case accident trade charlie ellis chellis nyx edu charlie ellis chellis nyx edu
rec.autos	review ford taurus sho occasionally have trouble shifting into reverse the shifter refuses enter the gate and often grind the synchros trying get into gear watching this carefully the next couple months enter wait seconds and then into reverse they use the same synchros and you never least haven ground fit when using this technique the cutting edge bbs cutting hou pcboard system houston texas usa running uupcb
rec.autos	review ford taurus sho hear that tires for this car can get really expensive currently have goodyear that cost the previous owner for four try eagle gas wear better cost less lose little handling and are quieter going switch next set with new rims fitti twists can afford the time gas wear out whole new ritual for with that fangled pedal also began wonder how strong that brake really today backed out parking spot today and started drive away before noticed the glowing brake light oops mine strong enough not let the car move when even you giving enough gas normally move you might need brake adjustment the driver power window creaks when closed all the way the same thing happens parents mercury sable oddly all the other windows work smoothly watch closely the glass actually flexes from the torque the motor seems stronger the drivers window then the others liking the interior amenities more and more each day the cupholders are great found the location under the armrest between the seats pain but like having them they moved into the dash pop out the model year much better really feel like don deserve this car really can believe that could afford got this car ten years ahead schedule did the same thing got black with miles for july put together the responses questions about the cars well other posts with useful information these cars posting this the form faq soon grabbed and archived thanks anyone interested starting mailing list please speak don know have the resources here purdue start one but maybe someone out there does starting one this summer one way the other current software use dosen support mailing lists but the rsn list not going upgrade another package that does have that nobody else beats will make announcement here when goes the cutting edge bbs cutting hou pcboard system houston texas usa running uupcb
rec.autos	toyota land cruiser worth article iftccu boeing com hovnania iftccu boeing com paul hovnanian wrote based experience with the hard top jeep style model would definitely give new model consideration were the market the older models are very well built unless toyota lost its mind would assume until proven otherwise that the newer models have inherited some not all the qualities their ancestors two major differences the running gear that aware need study has solid front axle housing whereas the newer models have independant front suspension the solid axle theoretically stronger and the new cruisers not have independent suspension the front they still run straight axle but with coils the runner the one with independent front the cruisers have incredible wheel travel with this system more reliable than the newer model but only experience will tell the independant front suspension doubt compromise made satisfy the typical user who will never need real utility vehicle the second difference the type transfer case used the newer models not sure but think tioyota went full time all wheel drive system the older landcruisers have lock type both have their advantages and disadvantages the cruiser does have full time but the center diff locks low range brother has and incredibly sturdy vehicle which has done all the trails moab without tow the and later even better with the bigger engine and locking diffs jim chott toyota pickup rzaa email sps mot com lemans sport convertible tempe arizona
rec.autos	toyota land cruiser worth article sbbinn col col com tvervaek col com tom vervaeke wrote wife and looked and drove one last fall this was model was wayyyyyyyyy underpowered could not imagine driving the mountains here colorado anything approaching highway speeds have read that the new models have newer improved engine quite serious that laughed the salesman face when said once broken will feel more powerful had been used driving jeep engine believe the land cruisers land yachts were the sames the runner which also underpowered the and cruisers run the straight which only has about and torque plenty off highway marginal the highway the has much improved straight with and torque they are big cars very roomy but nothing spectacular you take them rough trails you see the difference the cruiser order magnitude better off highway ability jim chott toyota pickup rzaa email sps mot com lemans sport convertible tempe arizona
rec.autos	any opinions early toronado having had car die engine fire insurance agent said was probably totaled the market for another vehicle saw toronado that was within expected price range and was wondering anybody could relate their experiences with namely does have accceptable power has does its being front wheel drive make maintenance difficult one power window and the power seat not work are these expensive items replace the work myself how long the engines usually last now any other experiences good bad and opinions thanks ryan kinter kinter scf usc edu
rec.autos	too fast dcd houston geoquest slb com dan day writes article armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes the mustang and sho platform were designed for mph would come with better seatbelts more supportive seats stronger passenger compartment cage better brakes stiffer suspension different tires and body design that takes advantage aero effects keep the car the ground other words yeah and then pay with mustang most bang for your buck
rec.autos	grand national does anyone have one these that would care share some information concerned about the turbo how reliable how the gas milage please responde not here thank you roger
rec.autos	honda clutch chatter article apr bnr dwjz bnr doug zolmer writes article hpindda cup com jimb hpindda cup com james bruder writes anyone else experiencing similar problem this concerns the clutch honda accord speed when the clutch first used the morning about the first miles shifting there significant amount clutch chatter until things warm then the clutch shifts smoothly this chatter started when moved the san francisco bay area from low humidity environment the dealer stated that this known happen since honda changed from asbestos non asbestos clutch material remedy seems that moisture clutch surface causes slipping until the moisture evaporates any comments out there the clutch honda civic the does this too annoying now that think about worse when the humidity high the dealer also claims there nothing they can since the clutch self adjusting hydraulic design yeah right one the reasons sold civic was the chattery grabby clutch although din notice being any worse humid weather perhaps because its always humid around here was told honda that has with changing from asbestos non asbestos linings which began around someone could make some good money selling the old fashion variety legal manufacture them these days feeling that since many other car makers not have this problem that poor design engineering problem the part honda three things look out for all honda products clutch chatter bad brake rotors and rusty exhaust systems
rec.autos	warning please read article apr morgan com sergei morgan com sergei poliakoff writes from sergei morgan com sergei poliakoff subject warning please read keywords brick truck danger date thu apr gmt article apr voodoo boeing com tomm hank boeing com tom mackey writes article joit bcstec boeing com neil bcstec boeing com neil williams writes reformatory for juviniles few blocks away they caught the year old that did they put cover over the overpass what else could they execute the juvi the grounds the reformatory required attendendence the rest the inmates soon possible after the incident and quick sure trial quite serious cause and effect nothing else will ever make dent this will not work hitler youth newark teenager car stealing epidemics student riots and other similar cases show that death not behaviour shaping even intimidating factor for teenagers teens defy death strong deterent the teens that are executed they won that again this policy cuts way down repeat offenders please not flame don agree with capital punishment for teen far rock throwing concerned well very sad and tragic most these incidents stem from the fact that these kids are dumb even smarter ones completely lack deductive thinking and can foresee the consequences their actions beyond immediate ones unfortunately dumbness and cars whizzing mph make explosive mix they are also unsupervised with proper supervision they would not throwing rocks parents cannot provide the minimal supervision needed stop this activity they should not allowed have children notice the smiley however hardly believe there was intent kill most these cases rather desire see the shattering glass admit was mercilessly attacking moscow busses with slingshot tender years akin child breaking toys witnessed several even more endeavouring projects like stacking bricks railroad track technical details such venture completely dominate the possibility human tradegy heck when you are you have vague concept human tradegy mind youngster quite sure that technical challenge matching and predicting speed thrown stone that gets the car smack the windshield completely occupies the teen not leaving much room for other considerations sergei ron stafford texas instruments incorporated box stafford lobby com dallas texas
rec.autos	 previous article smith ctron com lawrence smith says article kyp usenet ucs indiana edu mliggett silver ucs indiana edu matthew liggett writes must one somewhere believe bugatti coming has out one something like turbos and mucho macho one cool price too heard any rate the point pretty sure there indeed one production tho rather limited this bugatti labeled bugatti but has nothing with the bugatti yore from what understand just some ppl wanting build silly supercar and use that name sell drew may thinking the cizeta morodor but that hasn reached production least not yet for the bugatti well have agree with matt ain the top dog ain sexy and svelt looking and ain real bugatti fact looks like tight competition with the consulier for the most butt ugly car the decade award isn that bad least the bugatti has compound curves compared the slab sides the consulier and the bugatti has quad turbo thing three cylinder turbo engines tied together also ettore bugatti nephew the board directors and had hand the development that about much bugatti you are likely get today world much like enzo ferrari illegitamate son being allowed take over part ferrari well don know any cars with but there are number motorcycles with them but couldn tell you which ones all motorcycles look alike that funny have motorcylclist friends who say the same about cages most motorcycles are and the line hondas were all from the through the including the race bike and the present vfr should noted that lancia built recent history the fulvia very pretty italian coupe bowers dod alfa ducati hobie kottke blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes don you know that girls can play guitar mary chapin carpenter
rec.autos	dirty diesels nataraja rtsg mot com writes heard the diesels are considered cleaner burning than gas engines because the emit less carbon monoxide hydrocarbons and oxides nitrogen nox but they can put out lot particulate matter heard something about legislation being discussed clean diesel emissions there anything the works install scrubbers for diesels how about the feasibility installing them trucks and cars would any different than catylitic converter assume easier since removing particulate matter instead converting gasses let hear people opinions and mercedes have tinkered with particulate traps also uses kind turbocharger their jetta ecodiesel that helps reduce particulates well although don know the mechanics many diesel cars busses and trucks europe are now being equipped with catalysts and traps effort clean diesel emissions already well below legal limits anyway shame had soil the diesel reputation passenger cars and prevent further resource devotion research into making this outstandingly efficient engine even further ahead gas engines emissions erik
rec.autos	mercury villager minivan good buy icjps asuacad bitnet icjps asuacad bitnet writes nissan quest has been doing mpg city though its first few tanks were more like mpg the and are remarkably smooth agreed own mercury villager and very impressed with the and the the past been biased towards manual standard transmissions owned aerostar with speed was awesome but settled with the the villager and have been pleasantly surprised with performance btw consumers report their report the villager alluded some funny noises from the been listening for them but haven noticed anything unusual chris christopher born born ralvms vnet ibm com
rec.autos	drag coefficientsvx previous article gwm spl spl loral com gary mahan says could someone explain how make sense drag coefficients mentioned magazines understand that lower numbers signify better aerodynamics but what does this mean the real world there way calculate new top speeds assuming the car not rev limited top speed mileage benefits identical car had the reduced from pretty complex and isn the whole story either for cars usually calculated based the frontal area the car large car with good could get the same drag force smaller car with poorer calculate drag use this formula rho where the drag force lbs rho the local air density slugs the velocity and the frontal area note that the pieces called rho are sometimes called qbar dynamic pressure fancy aero term for air pressure force note that power where power lbf the force drag this case lbf and velocity note that you put the whole equation into one substituting for force you get velocity cubed term that why huge increases power result little increases speed ditto for decreases you have mph car and reduce from your new top speed sound trumpet fanfare mph sorry dissappoint bowers dod alfa ducati hobie kottke blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes don you know that girls can play guitar mary chapin carpenter
rec.autos	ree mgb questions the whire wheels aren chromed they were painted silver grey the accelerating from stop shouldn doggy because the light weight the car don pull the topto make reach the snaps pulled couple out the top doing that replacing the spanps usually doesn work let sit sun open the car for couple hours the try gently continually blew the connecting rod bearing sure your not buring too much oil don expect too much smooth ride the lever arm shocks hold the road and your bladder the are ultra expensive supposedly the can rebuilt whitney sell shock replacement kit the uses standard shocks had rebuid boththe brake and clutch master cylinder addition the clutch slave this work made world changes sure the carb the original type replacement had dual stomberg oil dampenned side draft carbs ask the clutch has ever been replaced replace the engine and tranny have pulled unit you need more had mine all through hiogh school lots maintenance use every day
rec.autos	service indicator bmw article apr westminster jkjec westminster shazad barlas writes derek there tool available reset the service indicator bmws but the lights will come back after weeks the tool fact illegal europe atleast often the case that the unsuspecting punter trots off buy used bmw and few weeks later all the lights come other than that know other tool anyone else about changing oil every miles thats newer audis they only require after every miles talking about oil change just query you drive your car very very carefully like sudden acceleration etc yeah then the oil change seems quite reasonable but you drive kinda fast get bit tight abot that thingy point note just because the first light came doesn mean all the others will come every too shaz shaz hmm but the service indicators that have works this way there are green yellow red indicators initially all green indicators will for few minutes when you start your car the computer will actually sense how you drive your car and time goes the green indicators will start off one one and then the yellow indicator will turn and then the red indicator will and you should get service when the time green indicators are off after service the mechanic you will reset the service indicators and the computer starts counting again expect have tool procedure reset the green lights will come and the yellow and red lights will off wonder how people can oil change themself without knowing how reset the indicator the first european car have and changing oil miles surprise and big plus but wonder how that could happen since the oil lose its lubrication ability over time thought the oil and not the vehicle that determines how often should change oil any bmw owner the net response welcomed initial question how you seset the service indicator bmw derek
rec.autos	improvements automatic transmissions article apr westminster jkjec westminster shazad barlas writes just wanted know wheelspin auto you keep the gear gas then stick the gear never tried this but sure works but does this screw the autobox having bit debate about here yes the neutral slam know that tested the old and shifting from reverse forward gears repeatedly while holding the engine high rpms the units hold incredibly well this also the recommended technique rock stuck vehicle out the mud think the hydraulics are the task but the mechanicals the driveline may object breaking something ericy agree about the durability the old trannies from while never intentionally slamed firebird conv into gear would leave the trannie low read grab hold hit the pedal and once the tires grabbed take off when reached about mph the turbo auto would shift read super and leave about foot double stripped rubber the ground most everyone knew the time was quite impressed with peeling out mph the trannie held just fine motor mounts would last about year until tied the motor down with large chains yea fyi pontiac bored over large valve heads holley spread bore crain blazer cam don remember the specs positrac hooker headers dual exhaust get this conv leather seats power windows power top cruise etc yea also pulled the cocktail shakers weights from the front and removed the lead pellet from the accelerator pedal damn regulations how miss that car under sec and about mpg well don miss the mpg front wheels off the ground with three quick jabs the pedal bent pushrods stripped rocker studs every months really wonder what kind rev was turning tach improvements automatic transmissions anyone seen one these lately buy back sec open top brent
rec.autos	extensions article apr ericsson etxmst sta ericsson writes was wondering what the country extension are sometimes just don have clue from where some people are writing these are the extensions know switzerland sweden finland com edu are both com and edu france please feel free add this list markus new zealand australia japan korea woobin lee image computing system lab woobin washington edu
rec.autos	new anti carjacking campaign article apr freenet carleton freenet carleton nigel allen writes here press release from the national crime prevention council the campaign urges drivers remember lock roll and look around lock car doors immediately after entering leaving the car roll windows far possible and look around and alert avoid situations that are suspicious that reminds blurb the police blotter school paper along the lines police were called because and reported there were suspicious people hangning around the business building turns out was two black men leaving the building after doing homework late one night
rec.autos	 the devil reincarnate ssave ole cdac com wrote curious about knowing which commericial cars today have engines don know any legend don know any jaguar xjs please add the list thanks ssave ole cdac com
rec.autos	replacement custom seats where get article apr colorado edu jerry bowman bowmanj csn org writes what car are talking about its camaro chevelle gto nova etc there are bunch places get them corvette but don want put corvette seats the original seats are exc shape but they are uncomfortable hell going store those and find set drive have all the vette catalogs but looking for more generic type seat can modify the brackets but cushion height and overall width are concern looked through some local boneyards without success would just like find pair cheapo use this summer tom
rec.autos	the mustang you know ford fan must say looking forward the next mustang have faith that will fine product more desireable than the camaro now you know that mho true thats your opinion they beat ford the market with the camaro firebird but really only words production these vehicles will limited until the end the year keeping selling prices above msrp for the most part since there are many twitching camaro fans out there wouldn press ford hurry the mustang since the final wait could worth besides bow tie fanatic gonna buy the mustang anyway true again wouldn take free mustang honest the next mustang will ford highest profile car attracts way more attention than the camaro firebird because heritage more embedded the general public don lie yourself and believe ford will forfeit that fyi they already did too bad that the current mustang can even compete with the new camaro without using active imagination right now few cars can compare with the camaro think about for car that will out perform all but few exotics you are now swearing look the stats they don lie there are comparable cars class certinaly not for its price you know intelligent critical spews like the mustang bites man some you are already beginning predict that the mustang and camaro will comparable performers usual also agree this subject one that will never setteled except maybe the track unless the ford gets the romeo you don seriously believe that was designed for the mark viii only you hey can you imagine the potential modified folks few years will surpass the levels performance achieved the late thats scary you ford chevy people must live the planet detroit droid like they say the airforce with enough horsepower anything will fly can put valve with twin garret yugo and get sec thats useless its still yugo that will loose any race track the street have you detroit beings compared the ultra long throw stick shifts the with the turbo buy mos the torsen differential the compared the differential the that sounds every hairpin turn and bythe way and camaro both have drums the rear breaks hello this the vlasis theodore software engineer just say signatures
rec.autos	changing brake fluid necessary article apr gmuvax gmu edu lcarr gmuvax gmu edu wrote been seeing all these articles about changing brake fluid and wondering this really necessary have toyota corolla with and the process doing preventative maintenance and was wondering this was something that should add list things any information would greatly appreciated really love this car and would like keep for long possible thanx lisa sign only manual will amplifying jeff goss answer the absorbed water will rust your brakelines and master cylinder and calipers and you could suddenly lose all your brake fluid
rec.autos	dirty diesels article apr virginia edu ejv virginia edu erik velapoldi writes nataraja rtsg mot com writes heard the diesels are considered cleaner burning than gas engines because the emit less carbon monoxide hydrocarbons and oxides nitrogen nox but they can put out lot particulate matter heard something about legislation being discussed clean diesel emissions there anything the works install scrubbers for diesels how about the feasibility installing them trucks and cars would any different than catylitic converter assume easier since removing particulate matter instead converting gasses let hear people opinions and mercedes have tinkered with particulate traps also uses kind turbocharger their jetta ecodiesel that helps reduce particulates well although don know the mechanics many diesel cars busses and trucks europe are now being equipped with catalysts and traps effort clean diesel emissions already well below legal limits anyway shame had soil the diesel reputation passenger cars and prevent further resource devotion research into making this outstandingly efficient engine even further ahead gas engines emissions erik sure don know what and how they measure regards diesel motors cars trucks and busses but think they are probably measuring the wrong pollutants the wrong time both certainly find offensive drive behind diesel bus diesel truck and some diesel cars they stink and always roll the windows panic time when one comes ducks front when driving with family don think the combustion mixture kept under very good control diesel engines and that why they stink the invisible unsmellable pollutants are reduced diesels yeah well what someone forgot about the visible stinky kind and far concerned those kind are just bad all for stinking the diesel vehicles keep the traffic signs cleaner too fred bach operations group internet music erich triumf triumf tri university meson facility voice loc wesbrook mall ubc campus fax university british columbia vancouver canada these are opinions which should only make you read think and question they not necessarily reflect the views employer fellow workers
rec.autos	mbenz series passat with the mercedes you can afford think the wagon starts around although could there comparison with any the other cars listed horace dediu gte laboratories sylvan road internet hdediu gte com waltham
rec.autos	viper car alarms article cdo uiuc edu uiuc edu ronald garnett writes hello auto enthusiasts recently had more car mangled broken into and decided get alarm installed viper and has shock sensor sensors for each door ignition cutoff and automatic door locks have this same alarm installed syclone works great the shock sensor very sensitive but much more practical than the motion sensor have other car doesn trigger the car rocked gently the wind but any kind shock sets off even kicking the tire sets off works great what worries the hood and hatch someone could pry them gently enough then they could bypass the alarm the shock sensor adjustable and there are two cycles you can adjust sensitive enough that there way you could open the hood without setting off the alarm although know that you cannot pop the hood the syclone without setting off alarm now and yet have had zero none false alarms with this system the alarm tells you when you disarm whether has been activated your absence have been able trace every alarm cause and was not false alarm also wondering how easy would for thief crawl underneath the car and cut the battery cable disable the alarm guess would possible depending the vehicle syclone tight the engine compartment that would tough this there are supplemental power supplies you can put with this viper alarm but don have one really think that someone wants car that bad the alarm won keep them from even with supplemental power supply viper also sells some fancy field disturbance sensor that supposedly detects people approcahing the car this primarily for convertibles have convertible and have looked this feature detail alpine actually makes better radar unit you want get one these has zones that can shut down independently that one side your car has pedestrian traffic something else that would trigger alarm shuts down the zone rather pulls tighter don see the real benefit these unless you have convertible that you leave the top down avoid the voice alarm that can added the radar package talks people they walk saw one installed lotus esprit the kids would taunt seeing how close they could get before warned them get back the owner finally disabled which defeats the purpose mind interested the opinions you netters about these problems and about the viper general real happy with viper one other feature really like you can tune your preferences you can have arm passively not you can disable the chirp for arming disarming you can have lock unlock the doors when the alarm armed disarmed like these features hate the chirp when the alarm arms disarms mine flashes the lights only like the door lock feature although have careful take keys with because doesn know you have left your keys the car when passively arms and locks the doors but you are meticulous about taking your keys with you takes care the rest the car ford probe that used great shape ron garnett looked seriously the alpine system too real nice system but more money and has motion sensor standard instead the shock sensor the shock sensor better and the viper shock sensor better cycle than the optional alpine one imho think the viper gives you lot good value for the money but isn absolutely tamperproof system except maybe the one that james bond had his lotus for your eyes only anyone know where can get one those installed maybe that was what they had the van the world trade center huh merrill
rec.autos	autofom fomblin tried the autofom stuff saturn and was disappointed with that returned for refund polished the car for hours and couldn remove the swirl marks thin film that was all over the finish also attracted more dirt than without the stuff
rec.autos	car alarms which one before get into another discussion the relative merits car alarm let the assumption that one desired the question then remains which one owned hornet and was satisfied but not enough get another for new car the alpine has been highly recommended but what about clifford and vse derringer any others want all the standard stuff door lock interface starter kill light flash led valet mode passive active shock motion sensor etc thanks for the advice
rec.autos	funny car taxes was market access article acf agate berkeley edu robohen ocf berkeley edu henry robertson writes keep mind that owning any car korea luxury that only the ruling class can afford every government agency worth its salt finds some reason levy tax car ownership last heard there were seven different fees pay own car used have tax greece named after the queen mother the queen left monarchy was abolished but the tax stuck similar single purpose taxes have stuck help the victims the earthquake build the metro obmoralconclusion next time someone proposes car tax gasoline tax promising temporary ain spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos kocrsv delcoelect com software technology delco electronics hughes electronics kokomo post therefore armm
rec.autos	changing oil maxima hello again another question just got hands quarts readline gear oil quart now need know how throw into car own nissan maxima any ideas can mix the oil there with this stuff should drain first then only use this stuff you know where there one the drain plug the manual transmission the maxima would really appreciate any comments also have any you maxima owners thied this stuff your cars thanks adv sammy
rec.autos	 article apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes curious about knowing which commericial cars today have engines don know any don know any and flat are abundant legend whole tload minivans pickups just about any car above the subcompact compact range and below the full size range with few exceptions are much more rare now the only one personally know that still production the venerable ford cid the series pickups think that jeep big are also straight sixes but not big jeep person don know any where are you not know there are mustangs cadillacs lincolns camaros corvettes thunderbirds all real full size pickups crown vics chevy moby hcaprice and even few japanese and european vee hickles with dodge viper dodge promises truck with jaguar xjs don ferarri and lamborghini both use extensively james james callison microcomputer coordinator oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not engineer but play one work the forecast calls for thunder bird hell thing killing man you take away all has and all ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	 article apr telxon mis telxon com joes telxon mis telxon com joe staudt writes article apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes curious about knowing which commericial cars today have engines don know any because there such thing friend had ford taunus era early that did have lost bet find hard believe there are recent cars with them any recent ones spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos kocrsv delcoelect com software technology delco electronics hughes electronics kokomo post therefore armm
rec.autos	manual shift bigots article apr rtsg mot com kissane black john kissane writes matter interest does anyone know why autos are popular the while here europe they are rare just wondering primarily milage gas much more expensive people are very concerned about taking few more liters per kilometer this along with narrow old cities also results smaller cars with smaller engines these engines usually don have the torque mesh well with automatic having engines that don work well with autos and great concern for milage the usual euro car has manual note that not many big benzes come with manuals you got the money for the car you got the money for the gas and the engine drive through the slushbox automatics become more efficient the bigotry probably reduced still everyone knows how drive manual and cars are cheaper with one and saves little expensive fuel there aren compelling reasons automatic
rec.autos	too fast this whole discussion just religous war rather have than the mustang for times the price that how you explain porsches selling some folks would rather have the stang shrug sean test signature
rec.autos	 anyone anyone heard cizata its mainly sold the middle east where they dont have strict legislation the usa and
rec.autos	nissan nomenclature was manual shift bigots wanted thanx craig addition craigs coments and clear any further confusion the usa was reffered silvia turbo the performance figures are vmax mph shaz one more you know that new prelude vtec well there auto version the usa heard them japan but not also you guys get auto miatas
rec.autos	emergency brake opel was nissan maxima since the subject brakes does anyone know why vauxhall opel disengages drive the rear wheels when the brakes are applied vauxhall boast about how the car more stable fwd mode during braking than mode how this shaz
rec.autos	dirty diesels yeah diesels are cleaner than petrol powered cars they even have catalysts fitted disels now and citroen have even launched the first sports diesel car the world which probably true you assume its for production purposes merc benz had prototype which runs diesel back around did and read this mph shaz
rec.autos	thoughts the corrado the the corrado rated best handling car this side goes just read article autocar motor comparing the ford probe later launched the the more powerful even more coz its instead the and more fun drive etc etc but the probe has slightly smoother engine thanx mazda they sum both cars are fast the bit more exhilirating drive but only you prepared work harder shaz
rec.autos	extensions article omsinnnbk ctron news ctron com smith ctron com writes article gfpftjw vwyv andrew cmu edu daniel holbrook andrew cmu edu writes these are the extensions know switzerland sweden finland com edu are both com and edu france denmark norway com and edu are both united states one refers commercial institutions the other mental mean educational institutions gov also pretty much refers government institutions internet was built the aarp backbone defense contractor network that used the extension think you mean arpa aarp the american association retired persons and seriously doubt that they want young whippersnappers building anything their backbones what with calcification and all identify the type organisation internet extended the convention for other countries but the retained the old conventions the general convention that doesn have country tag site that includes com commercial edu educational mil military sites gov gov non military sites nasa sites org anyone who none the above there are sites with such tags that are non sites but they will have the country extension xxxx edu extension saw today sites can also use the extension but smith pointed out the internet was built the arpanet backbone and they default sites there country code would suggest that anyone who didn know this wants know more about non system administrative level check out the book the whole internet user guide and catalog krol catalog and user guide can never remember and copy desk home very good not necessarily technical guide the internet and the various utilities that lurk including usenet don think part the nutshell series but published reilly and associates this should one the news newsgroups but damned can figure out which one james james callison microcomputer coordinator oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not engineer but play one work the forecast calls for thunder bird hell thing killing man you take away all has and all ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	radar detectors the did youy guys know that legal own radar detector but illegal use isn that bit like owning gun but not being allowed use mate just switches his off whenever the cops are around
rec.autos	comparing saabs bmw article biz ecs umass edu suri ganzer ecs umass edu writes would someone like post comparative analysis quantitative measures etc and more the qualitative feel how they compare for the driving feel handling noise responsiveness etc for the saab and the bmw series any comments just comparing the with the handling take that the saabs and bmw are comparable for reliability and all that would nice flaming wars could avoided and folks just post their experiences had saab turbo and now have bmw there comparison for handling reliability overall quality engineering the bmw wins hands down after years was sick and tired the all the little problems and entropic decay the saab the year old bmw still sweet was new but see you are posting from western bmw suck the snow have aggressive snows plus hundred pounds sand the back and still try avoid driving the snow happily took the saab through blizzard conditions without worry would say this the single design flaw the bmw jonathan edwards edwards intranet com intranet inc
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all time article apr lehigh edu amh lehigh edu alois himsl writes article apr jpl devvax jpl nasa gov nancy hayduke nancy feagans writes ashtrays and cigarette lighters these should option you forget that the cigarette lighter plug essential for plugging radar detectors and lights the ashtrays are also essential because they are great places keep change and tokens wouldn you rather have some type standard electrical plug instead that fire hazard waiting happen adaptor know would and would also prefer have sensibly placed cup holders instead ashtray car came with coin holders already built ron
rec.autos	bmw article apr westminster jkjec westminster shazad barlas writes article apr ultb isc rit edu adn ritvax isc rit edu writes the radio does not work untill the car warms and you honk the horn hahaa hahahah hahahahahahaaaaa cant stop its killing hahah was dead serious when posted actually have attempt explanation this phenomenon but keep you guessing still want responces which got exactly mike
rec.autos	 cbh windsurf scd ucar edu cris hannu writes article apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes curious about knowing which commericial cars today have engines don know any legend don know any yeah right the bmw are can remember which the auto show was while ago the from the there jaguar xjs please add the list thanks ssave ole cdac com cris hannu windsurfing the high country cray research inc ncar boulder cbh windsurf scd ucar edu chintan amin the university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	rush was too fast article apr stdvax oaddab stdvax dirk broer writes still its amazing germany you can have cars traveling mph and mph the same lane road around washington they can keep traffic flowing actually that mph and mph the legal speed limit for trucks two lanes each direction hell rush when those trucks fly was that flying them who cares the rush really something else and the draft ron
rec.autos	the mustang vlasis cybernet cse fau edu vlasis theodore writes have you detroit beings compared the ultra long throw stick shifts the with the turbo buy mos the torsen differential the compared the differential the that sounds every hairpin turn the price tag the mustang part the definition mustang that should affordable the masses course ford knows youre argument they own big piece mazda take good look mach iii now hhhmmmmm and bythe way and camaro both have drums the rear breaks hello this the that tragedy but don think new camaros the new mustangs will steve alan kulwicki winston cup champion
rec.autos	seats for sale article apr noao edu groves noao edu lee groves writes from article apr ultb isc rit edu adn ritvax isc rit edu have pair sport seats from for sale blue black the owner and having several friends who own them very uncomfortable when see like this have known several people who have lost the seats from their the middle the night support the celica retro fit trade and the insurance companies have been very miserable deal with all cases when these seats are seen for sale they are most often stolen would nice see statement saying where they came from that would least help soothe the reflexive fear that someone making buck someone elses expense give this seller the benefit the doubt but people should aware the the vast majority seats the market especially those that are celicas are stolen lee btw they are incredible seats legit for the original owner the seats and the original poster take very serious offence your statement see lot computers advertized the net and friend just had been releived his machine all the net computer ads are for stolen computers where did you learn logic for the seats they were replaced much harder literally celica gts seats due back problem that why had reuse the brackets and that why the seats sell are attached celica brackets please the future think before you make allegations like the above hurts mike
rec.autos	super mega automobile sighting exotics together article qinnk phantom gatech edu grahamt phantom gatech edu graham thomas writes jmm virginia edu the blade runner writes gotta top favorite cars all time list where this place was the car for sale come need details not anyways just had say wow the sighting such fine beast but remember the mustang will forever the true king the road the place was what used small town now suburb north atlanta don know the car was for sale not you wouldn put price the window this type car anyway damn straight far heard unless the owner very hard the are not for sale any price that mere mortals could afford and maybe the mustang will forever king the road the isn road legal think the actually street legal although that particular question moot see the price figures below this car was right hand drive weren they all like that how much does for how many were made wish could find shelby american guide included the registry there were precious few them made fifty the number that springs mind they made just enough qualify for the manufacturer cup whichever series was that shelby broke ferarri year winning streak and they are all accounted for the last price saw estimated was little bit over yes that right one million dollars was second only some worthless piece ferrari that would blow the doors off don recall off hand what the drive configuration was although certain some must have been lhd they had sold qualify for racing the drivertrain was the ford riser think and side oiler coupled various speed transmissions they also used speed manuals they had lots problems with the original trannys breaking under the load the layout was rear engine rear drive with the bundle snakes exhaust headers can remeber other bits and pieces info but can remember whether they applied the the shelby cobra daytona coupe try and find that reference james james callison microcomputer coordinator oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not engineer but play one work the forecast calls for thunder bird hell thing killing man you take away all has and all ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	series for sale with frame restoration early local show winner driven very little and stored inside since then mostly collected dirt dust needs attention brake cylinders like all but otherwise ready run chrome paint not fancy but mechanically excellent the engine was completely overhauled machine shop priced good shape but hasn been run since needs engine work but rust and everything with including top side curtains and carpet that were new and haven seen the outdoors since the basket case call parts car but too good for that everything seems there except the tach would make good project car parts car you insist apparent rust but the upholstery disaster stored inside since the the top was new but now soso this one has wire wheels looking for all three cars will sold they stand with hassles haggles time has passed and time part company prices are negotiable reply via matthews oswego oswego edu mail box oswego harry matthews aou wrvo wrvn wrvj internet matthews oswego oswego edu learning resources satellite bitnet matthews snyoswva college cable voice mail oswego alloy ntnx mho are mine not oswego
rec.autos	horizontally opposed boxer engines was article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian queiser writes none the configurations are perfectly inherently balanced which what was talking about balance shafts and mass either ends the cranks can eliminate these forces moments which something also pointed out and didn you also say that was easier add masses than add balance shafts the sad truth that some makers don bother put balance shafts their big shaky the three cranks refer even firing deg zcos flat even firing deg crank spacing zcos flat even firing deg azcost how about this ridiculous kindly explain why been more than years since studied this stuff flat and both have the potential nearly vibration free because subaru does that has nothing with general porsche think subaru somehow connecting themselves porsche absurdity and not porsche fan big wing dings these configurations overhead cams etc etc etc have been around for nearly years the point that they are trying make that while everybody settles for the orthodox inline they are using horizontally opposed which unique that market segment and porsche also uses flat six their what the problem don see any claim that their engine good porsche they are simply pointing out that they use the same configuration porsche you want nitpick campaigns think there are far more blatant excesses than this eliot
rec.autos	service indicator bmw thanks for all the recommendations have decide ignore the service indicators and oil change myself every miles thanks again for all the responses derek
rec.autos	new mercedes diesels fellow auto enthusiasts does anyone have any info the new valve per cylinder diesels mercedes working any specs outputs engine size will they direct indirect injection etc would welcome from what hear these should out late this year next year thank you advance for your replies harjeet hsk microplex com
rec.autos	replacement custom seats where get article uqs usenet ucs indiana edu tom wetzel twetzel ucs indiana edu writes article apr colorado edu jerry bowman bowmanj csn org writes what car are talking about its camaro chevelle gto nova etc there are bunch places get them corvette but don want put corvette seats the original seats are exc shape but they are uncomfortable hell going store those and find set drive have all the vette catalogs but looking for more generic type seat can modify the brackets but cushion height and overall width are concern looked through some local boneyards without success would just like find pair cheapo use this summer tom call around some wrecking yards your area and they have any look fiero seats they are right down the floor like vette and not too wide you can find any let know and call around here for you sure these yards ship stuff all the time
rec.autos	ultimate awd vehicles article bcd ecs umass edu sylveste ecs umass edu writes before the became the was called the turbo quattro this model did come wagon very quick wagon very rare also mike sylvester umass being satisfied audi owner turbo quattro audi get the free vag magazine the latest issue presented new avant wagon with litre like one these btw this second quattro and third turbo and must say that even the summer with dry roads the quattros give much extra road holding and balance that hope can afford them always thomas real life thomas rnblom email thomas tornblom nexus comm snail mail communicator nexus phone box fax uppsala sweden
rec.autos	after market sunroofs power moonroof big type who makes the best hello all know that after market sunroofs may have left bad taste some your mouths but really interested finding good brand one exists please let know you have heard any makers with good reputation few failures leaks that sort thing and whether not you have had first hand experience with that manufacturer who generally regarded the industry the best price object maker power sunroofs steve steve bonsib reply sbonsib cac stratus com stratus computer marlboro
rec.autos	wanted toyota previa all trac low miles looking buy toyota previa all trac with low miles you are selling one want someone buy out existing lease please contact mail will estes internet westes netcom com
rec.autos	centreforce clutch any one with experience having centreforce clutch any other his her car considering replace old stock clutch crx what fair price martin
rec.autos	chevy gmc fullsize pickups opinions dick grady grady world std com wrote considering buying chevy gmc full size pickup with the extended cab any opinions about these vehicles have there been any significant problems dick grady salem usa grady world std com many newsgroups little time bought brand new chevrolet extended cab last may has had many many problems see earler post that describes the situation went bbb arbitration and they ruled that chevrolet must buy back from you get one stay away from the speed manual with the deep low first gear they have put three them truck far after about miles overdrive either starts rattling hissing loudly there way fix them chevrolet says that the noise characteristic the transmission also you are planning use your truck tow the gear ratios that tranny suck steep hill you get about mph second gear rpm yellow line you shift third the rpm drop only and you begin loose speed should point out that the they put the gvw trucks detuned motor compared the one they put the light duty ones they dropped the compression ratio supposedly for engine longevity reasons the light duty may pull better than truck does other things that have gone wrong include the ventilation fan times far paint had specs rust embedded the paint from being shipped rail with covering and suspension parts link between stabilizer and control arm fell off any company can make bad individual car chevrolet included what really bothered was the way they reacted they made attempt deal with except tell take back the dealer for them attempt fix one more time bought brand new ford super cab with and automatic will never buy another chevrolet jackw hpdmd boi com
rec.autos	high mileage audi question question for any high mileage audi owners out there interested buying audi for cdn the reason the car selling for little that has just under the car owner claims the car good condition question how reliable are audi with mileage that high would worthwhile for buy the car any problem areas that should look out for any help would greatly appreciated post responses and mail thanks steve hui
rec.autos	 article apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes curious about knowing which commericial cars today have engines don know any legend golf passat inline very narrow angle deg one head audi don know any audi some mbs some bmws jaguar xjs bmw please add the list thanks ssave ole cdac com real life thomas rnblom email thomas tornblom nexus comm snail mail communicator nexus phone box fax uppsala sweden
rec.autos	 article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes the subarus all use degree vees their engines eliot wouldn that make them would they really henceforth referred underscore kenneth finnegan nrlssc navy mil
rec.autos	impala going into previous article george howell goucher ffv ampr org george howell says has always screwed the rest the divisions favor the corvette the current platform exception the detuned camaro and firebird load crap keep people from realizing that they can buy one these instead corvette and save about like the idea impala but they really wanted impress they would throw big phat imagine the cops their taurus police package and litres they stare your taillights gimme break you know chevy screw that just like that almost great truck with the big phat have you ever seen the mufflers that thing amazing moves which isn say not good idea but quite sure chevy screw the same way drew george howell ooo ppp aaa rrr ppp aaaaa rrr ooo ford better living through american horsepower george howell george howell goucher ffv ampr org
rec.autos	questions about insurance companies esp geico wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes car was recently destroyed hail storm fully expected get jerked around the insurance company wasn the only one who had hail damage state farm opened its claim centers evenings and weekends and flew down additional adjusters from dallas have experience with state farm but think important differentiate your experience from typical accident hail damage clearly not the fault the owner and also tends well publicized the media the ins benefit respond promptly and helpfully damage like this doesn imply anything about the likelihood future claims unless you live area that gets frequent damaging hail storms there reason for them stop covering you that lot different from fault accidents theft related claims which may more indicative claim patterns
rec.autos	warped brake discs taurus from bsw utrc utc com bruce winters subject warped brake discs taurus the past few years have owned mustang gts and now own bird they all have had this problem there was recall the bird for the brake problem the ford dealer replaced the rotors and pads but the rotors warp after about miles between this problem and the fit and finish problems the bird never buy ford again just had rotors taurus changed less than miles ago and you guessed noticing slight warpage the left rotor had mechanic friend mine look and said that there high spot the rotor that causing the problem this brand new rotor bought from ford dealership can they even produce brand new rotor that not warped currently negotiating with them swap out for new rotor this first american build car and not overly impressed tony name antonio balsamo company digital equipment corp shrewsbury mass work mail balsamo stargl enet dec com
rec.autos	engines the subject the ford the used engines exstensively their ford transit vans this brings back memory from the seventies played band the time and for something like pounds four bought tranny cart the gear around was terrible shape cosmetically because last owner was pig farmer spent days cleaning and putting partition and more seating but til the day died everytime you turned the fan the defroster dried pig shit came flying out the vents back the engine remember right was and that thing could haul could fill with equipment and people and went like bat out hell course there were pollution controls the engine and the gas was leaded and higher octane than get now when the mechanical fuel pump quit put electric one from morris minor that worked great fond memories pwe slipknot mit edu like own squadron tanks paul emery ron nasty the rutles magnet lab cambridge mass costellobeatlesspinaltapfawltytowersmuttsavengersstartrek tngenglandrutles
rec.autos	lemon law does anyone know the law kchupp kchupp kevin chupp writes father have lots problems with year old van what the lemon law what should qualifies talk philip greenspun took ford court recently and despite much manouvering and trickery ford part won well actually think ford settled out court the provision shut his mouth and stopped causing them trouble love when the little guy wins don have philip address anymore but philip where are you call may bring him out hiding cheers paul paul heuer phone avionics technology dsto pzh aeg dsto gov fax box salisbury south australia
rec.autos	seats for sale article apr ultb isc rit edu adn ritvax isc rit edu writes article apr noao edu groves noao edu lee groves writes the owner and having several friends who own them very uncomfortable when see like this when these seats are seen for sale they are most often stolen would nice see statement saying where they came from give this seller the benefit the doubt but people should aware the the vast majority seats the market especially those that are celicas are stolen the original owner the seats and the original poster take very serious offence your statement thinks thee dost protest too much please the future think before you make allegations like the above made allegations and specifically gave the seller the benefit the doubt simply made the net aware the fact that many these seats are stolen watch out and ask questions when buying that good advice follow when buying anything from third party the net elsewhere hurts touchy touchy mike alex ridgway
rec.autos	the mustang article apr virginia edu jmm virginia edu the blade runner writes just have got remind all you that this yes that right somtime this fall ford the granddaddy cars will introducing all new mega cool way too fast for accord drivers mustang supposed streamlined looking similar the mach iii concept car ford came out with around january can wait anyone out there hear anything about recently everything read correct ford doing nothing but skinning the existing mustang with minor suspension modifications and the pictures seen indicate they didn very good job the new mustang nothing but cycle year old car jeff
rec.autos	service indicator bmw dchan cisco com derek chan writes article apr westminster jkjec westminster shazad barlas writes derek there tool available reset the service indicator bmws but the lights will come back after weeks the tool fact illegal europe atleast often the case that the unsuspecting punter trots off buy used bmw and few weeks later all the lights come other than that know other tool anyone else shaz hmm but the service indicators that have works this way there are green yellow red indicators initially all green indicators will for few minutes when you start your car the computer will actually sense how you drive your car and time goes the green indicators will start off one one and then the yellow indicator will turn and then the red indicator will and you should get service when the time green indicators are off after service the mechanic you will reset the service indicators and the computer starts counting again expect have tool procedure reset the green lights will come and the yellow and red lights will off wonder how people can oil change themself without knowing how reset the indicator the first european car have and changing oil miles surprise and big plus but wonder how that could happen since the oil lose its lubrication ability over time thought the oil and not the vehicle that determines how often should change oil any bmw owner the net response welcomed initial question how you seset the service indicator bmw derek there perfectly legal tool available reset the bimmer service lights will cost you from mailorder and buying one far outweighs the possible consequences destroying all the electronics you try yourself you wonder how people oil change without knowing how reset why reseting important the only reason for doing stop the annoyance red light staring you forget this european cars you only need change the oil every crap anyone serious about keeping their engine good shape and extending its life will change every inc filter don wait for the servive lights come before servicing the car bought bmw about months ago had green lights have changed the oil every completly flushed brake fliud changed all filters oil air and fuel changed transmission and drive oils and done almost all the other things req for service and service after nearly miles still green lights after winter burlington and snowing today that not bad good luck blair blair robertson new zealander vermont university vermont posting his own ideas medical research facilty smooth muscle ion channel group colchester vermont email blair northpole med uvm edu telephone
rec.autos	how good car wash wax question what your experience with car wash wax this the liquid type wax bottles that you pour water sponge you car hose off and dry with cloth many people have used very easy work with and gives seeminly the same visual results that paste type wax but does last long does have any negative effects car paint can you forward your reply directly email thanks james
rec.autos	review ford taurus sho article uupcb cutting hou david bonds cutting hou david bonds writes occasionally have trouble shifting into reverse the shifter refuses enter the gate and often grind the synchros trying get into gear watching this carefully the next couple months enter wait seconds and then into reverse they use the same synchros and you never least haven ground fit when using this technique like the manual says and put first then you can quickly into reverse waiting mark mark rice mark rice columbiasc ncr com views
rec.autos	broncos does anybody have any information the second generation broncos not talking about bronco referring the broncos that began production based the chassis believe ahh broncos well personally have the blue book just hair over grand bought for and then bought new tires front end rebuild carb rebuild then did the unthinkable and blew the engine not bronco specific unmaintained engine with more bucks there now nice condition well after new seats out bird radio amps speakers alarm well the radio and amps were free and bought the speakers used for bucks and the other speakers took out old jeep sell jeep for bronco you might ask but was wagoneer its lovely specimen solid front and rear axels ford and dana front watch the rear axel wrap busted off bolts once added traction shocks after that and haven had problem since also the bottom the doors tend rot bottom the tailgates likes rust right the new ones that might your budget the post broncos have that sickly ttb front end and little stamped and folded steel radius arms were the have nice big cast iron longer radius arms more prspective wheel travel the only rust have doors and few dings the sheet metal don know when the removeable tops were discontinued but they are fun just ordered full convertable top for for mine credit card don ever break the window you have the double laminated bronzed privacy glass your cap over bucks replace bronco also does pretty good offroad haven bottomed out suspension yet and have crossed over foot deep water with problems handles rocks like charm too one problem wide and you sometimes can follow toyota between two rocks trees and your grandmother will have hard time getting into bob
rec.autos	rfi art clutchless shifting article apr magnus acs ohio state edu sjcostan magnus acs ohio state edu scott costanzo writes was smooth silk was the most amazing shifting demonstration ever seen having said all that still don know why anyone would want shift synchronized tranny without clutch why ego trip mark walker old man always said mwalker chama eece unm edu too much just right home guess that applies preferences albuquerque performance cars
rec.autos	rfi art clutchless shifting article lrr psuvm psu edu lrr psuvm psu edu writes have they showed the foot cam and telemetry for rusty wallace shifting lanta last year and never touched the clutch except very slightly when down shifting pretty powerful doubt his trans uses standard syncros there are several mechanisms for coupling gear with the transmission output shaft some which are fine for racing and unsuitable for street use mark walker old man always said mwalker chama eece unm edu too much just right home guess that applies preferences albuquerque performance cars
rec.autos	lexus and infiniti article afqzkhs yiss andrew cmu edu joseph mazza mazz andrew cmu edu writes btw just saw the new this weekend the big changes grille has been added looks nice too and some wood for the interior otherwise looked largely unchanged they changed the lights and slope the hood along with the new grille otherwise unchanged interestingly their lack wood and lack grille was big design statement they tried defy conventional wisdom and carve their own niche unfortunately sales were only half those the lexus and hence they now join the pack still wonder much the problem wasn the slow start from the initial campaign personally like the without the grille steve morris internet smorris sumax seattleu edu addiction studies pgm uucp beaver uunet gtenmc dataio sumax smorris seattle university phone dept direct seattle
rec.autos	info about audi used thinking buying used audi auto these cars look good and audi have good rep for these cars europe where from was just wondering there anything about these cars that should know parms
rec.autos	question about integra auto box new this group and this may have been discussed already which case apologies but have integra with auto box according the manual the car has lock torque converter something similar what what does and how does work excuse ignorance does anybody know parms sig yet
rec.autos	new integra for heard unconfirmed rumours that there new integra being released for does anybody have any info this the local sales people know much can throw them parms still sig
rec.autos	driver seat best cars the year tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes the golf also won ajac automobile journalists association canada car the year award and unless mistaken screwed borrowed vcr and got the first minutes the corrado slc was awarded ajac sports sporty car the year mattias tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo ont stick your index fingers into both corners your mouth now pull that how the corrado makes you feel car january mattias hembruch views not necessarily reflect those the tse mail mhembruc tse com
rec.autos	rfi art clutchless shifting previous article lusky ccwf utexas edu jonathan lusky says article lrr psuvm psu edu lrr psuvm psu edu writes not familiar with the trannies used winston cup but the trans cars played with the transmissions were the racing variety with dog clutches instead sychros transmission with dog clutches the gears are always engaged with each other and moving the dog clutches engages the gears the shafts motorcycle transmissions are the same way shifting without the clutch transmission with syncros can and will cause transmission damage the only question being how long takesto grenade something for the trans pulsar was about miles but had weak tranny the first place just out curiosity how this dog clutch any different from synchro transmission what you described sounds the same fact what little studied trannies the instructor referred the synchros dogs and said they were synonymous the gears are always meshed synchronized gearbox and you slip the synchro gears back and forth shifting least that what was taught explain por favour thanx drew email fine this inappropriate for here the only bonhead who doesn know the diff
rec.autos	 previous article finnegan nrlssc navy mil says article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes the subarus all use degree vees their engines eliot wouldn that make them would they really henceforth referred underscore think that technicaly known degree vee configuration could wrong this how seen them referred drew
rec.autos	which radar detector should buy just entered the market for radar detector and looking for any all advice recommendations warnings etc from anyone this group email preferred thanks
rec.autos	viper car alarms uiuc edu ronald garnett writes ron viper also sells some fancy field disturbance sensor that ron supposedly detects people approcahing the car ron your viper system were tuned like neighbor you wouldn get any sleep because the damn thing waking every one the neighborhood all used try ignore the alarm but have now made pact bombard the house with night time visits and phone calls when ever are awakened because some thunder storm passed over the next county stray dog looked the car car alarms are serious pain the ass real men don have car radios since the exhaust too loud hear anyway grin sturrock anthropology georgia state university ksturroc gsu edu
rec.autos	gts headlight covers have eagle talon and wanted pair gts headlight covers actually they are turning signal covers since the talons that year had pop lights went auto shop and bought the tail light blackouts for but they did not have the turning signal covers stock asked how much would and told would cost another thought this was bit high for two small pieces plastic can anyone find cheaper pair even used one jay cadiz cadiz marble rtsg mot com motorola inc arlington heights
rec.autos	 previous article thomas tornblom nexus comm thomas tornblom says article apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes curious about knowing which commericial cars today have engines don know any legend golf passat inline very narrow angle deg one head audi don know any audi some mbs some bmws jaguar xjs bmw please add the list thanks ssave ole cdac com real life thomas rnblom email thomas tornblom nexus comm snail mail communicator nexus phone box fax uppsala sweden drew
rec.autos	manual xmission advice needed don think that transmission fluid change will solve your problem unless you are extremely cold climate and using very heavy weight fluid follow the manufacturer recommended oil weight some the cars have had all standard transmissions speeds recommend changing the transmission fluid miles under normal driving conditions gone without changing the transmission oil and had replace the transmission bearings older cars used weight oil whereas honda uses motor oil maybe weight
rec.autos	changing brake fluid necessary agree with jeff reply never changed the brake fluid except when having brake job which usually around miles alot freeway driving however will start this preventative maintenance new car also there are brake system flushing agents that can used but the problem that any the agent left the system can cause problems been recommended not use them unless you are certain that you can remove all the flushing agent just for your info was quoted price labor and fluid for flushing the brake system this conjunction with break job don know was more without the brake job this the bay area
rec.autos	vibration when brakes are applied javier how are things corp old stomping ground was level vibration when applying the brakes can caused disc brakes least warped rotors when the brakes are applied there results uneven pressure the rotor turning the rotors brake shop will remedy this problem long there enough rotor width left for turning within spec there could some possible front end suspension problem but brake shop should able confirm warped rotors visual inspection which free
rec.autos	mercury villager minivan good buy article innvar sumax seattleu edu smorris sumax seattleu edu steven morris writes the villager quest seem like the best the cravan voyager copies come along since the mazda mpv the nissan maxima engine paired with the maxima speed auto trans should excellent drive train and the rest the vehicle seems well engineered only the price controversial hmm the last time checked villager quest does not have maxima engine and very much under powered for its weight
rec.autos	engines article apr mit edu singer mit edu matthew singer writes didn the saab sonnett have recall someone telling that was something like ford not only the sonett correct spelling but the wagon and sedan used from ford germany this particular motor had degree vee angle balance shaft and siamesed exhaust ports this motor was later stretched into the commonly seen the capri the could make pretty reasonable power for its size but the saab made too much torque for the transmission which had been designed for cylinder stroke chuck fry former sonett iii owner chuck fry chucko freud arc nasa gov this space for rent alone bear responsibility for the claptrap above
rec.autos	ford explorer question and suv review ongoing search for sport utility here the latest toyota runner small small small small the interior this vehical impossible for large person too bad would have been the winner otherwise nissan pathfinder very low ceiling head hit the roof fun bumps also has cheap looking interior isuzu trooper class act this really really nice vehical very comfortable handled has really cool grab handles everywhere but huge and the engine bit too small for bulk also the manual shift weird and kind awkward buy this were cheaper shorter but this size and for this price kept picturing trying park san francisco thanks chevy blazer cheap looking small not small the toyota and nissan but still too small ford explorer this sports car and certainly not for the serious off roader but big enough comfortable without being huge and heavy the trooper engine has plenty power for everyday driving though would nice had bit more the automatic tranny pretty nice head and shoulders above mazda mpv the steering not tight like but acceptable the two door has easy enter back seats easier get into fact than the driver seat the runner and with shorter wheelbase and the easier availability manual tranny yes manual shift biggot admit the one thinking buying that said there anyone out there who has one these and hates anyone had any major problems heard any horror stories also any reason buy the ford over the mazda navajo both being essentially the same vehical thanks karl karl elvis macrae software release support cisco systems kmac cisco com batman cisco com dod shovels and rakes and implements destruction arlo guthrie
rec.autos	corvette car cover for sale not sure this made out try again have ecklar corvette car cover for sale the cover canvas the outside and felt the inside weather proof and great condition asking and pay shipping originally october carl mercer cci com evening day
rec.autos	new integra for article ypt tsegw tse com pbhandar tsegw tse com parminder bhandari writes heard unconfirmed rumours that there new integra being released for does anybody have any info this the local sales people know much can throw them parms still sig here again now these are just rumors dont quote new integra supposedly wedge shaped again and all wheel drive top models then variant called the comes later roadster think gets unveiled end summer nothing about airbag was mentioned but sure have one along with nice hefty increase sticker
rec.autos	car buying story was christ another dealer service scam article apr newsgate sps mot com rapw email sps mot com writes before you find out the invoice prices the car add reasonable profit for the dealer offer them that price and stick whoa watch your terminology dealer invoice not dealer cost you hear lots ads screaming two dollars over dealer invoice sounds like real deal huh you know what the dealer invoice also called factory invoice piece paper with numbers that the factory sends the dealer what the numbers signify absolutely nothing marketing gimmick that the salesman can wave your face impress you note that nowhere the invoice does claim the real price the car and most ads which mention dealer invoice will end with very fast low voice saying something like invoice may not reflect actual dealer cost actually guarantee does not reflect actual dealer cost also the reasonable profit for dealer usually around three percent adjust according the dealer cost the car and any options that you want haggle like hell with the salesman over the cost dealer prep and protection package few squirts paint and fabric protectant while you ask the salesman toss thing two that doesn cost him any cash wife and got joyride twin turbo mitsubishi when bought our mitsubishi mini van
rec.autos	ford probe import car the year okay okay know the ford probe made the fact made michigan mazda plant question are most the parts from american japanese sources have been told that most the assembly plants for japanese automakers import almost all the parts used the vehicles any information anyone has this will appreciated tim newman newman cps msu edu
rec.autos	best radar detector article apr westminster jkjec westminster shazad barlas writes now that have these gatso photo speed traps here was wondering anyone knows radar detectors are capable detecting photo cameras not are there any other devices which will yup radar detectors that detect band will pick photo radar reflected from some poor slob ahead you that just got nailed btw many photo radar installations the southern became targets for high powered rifles had their lenses decorated with cow flop etc not that advocating destruction public property but you get the picture later chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nec com baby bike disclaimer now why would nec needs name agree with any this anyway was raised pack wild corn dogs
rec.autos	plug wires they really need replacement article rgvv haven umd edu vadik umd edu vadim maslov wrote netters went all tune and lube for routine maintenance and they said need change plug wires because they are original ones and you driven miles them had strong suspicion that they just wanted make money wires had visible defects and repair manual doesn recommend any scheduled maintenance for them plain vanilla rip off there can some backing behind their suggestion replace wires have ford taurus vadim maslov once had sparking problem with mustang and simply changing the spark plug wires fixed philip bush national champion motorola inc schaumburg sho convention show email cpb email mot com place concours phone judged
rec.autos	ford probe opinions centered around the article heiser acs edu bill heiser writes article chuck eos ncsu edu chuck kesler writes jeremy mereness zonker cmu edu says can anyone offer any opinions the ford probe ala how they the long run repair records reliability mileage etc found mine probe quite well window problem deleted artical has been trimmed have had probe looked twice local dealer where purchased the car the first time they made this problem worse the second time after advising them the service bulletin mentioned ford probe mailing list they said they didn know the bulletin they adjusted the window and made much better however now makes scritch scritch noise rough roads and still squeals when open close the window wet weather anyone elses this not had any the air leakage problems that have been reported but get the squeal that bill describes live seattle the wet weather may factor ford only gives key with the car mon ford spend extra few pennies recall correctly got two keys horn buttons behind air bag spokes and not center personal preference you got position the fingers perfectly make beep buttons are terrible this true wondering this may safety concern people pound the place where the airbag lives speaking the horn was surprised find that the probe comes with one those nice merican sounding horns instead the japanese sounding kind the previous probes had japanese horns opinion transmission the speed must have always been speed guy almost every car ever owned has been speed because got good deal this car with the miles knowingly overlooked the fact that has automatic but pretty high tech automatic fully electronicaly controlled speed with the speed much more fun opted for the automatic for number reasons but still fun and some ways more practical shake rattle noises when going over bumps potholes still ditto shakes and rattles has been main gripe gotten them fix the worst them but fear that with the rather harsh ride the car will virtual potpouri rattles when gets older too would suspect that this may true tires goodyear eagles left hoping for very very very well sticks the road like glue even rough surface yes interior very very nice too very pleasing the eye and ergonomically sound definitely ford mazda did very very nice job this one the car has much more expensive than actually look and feel ditto yes this car stiff suspension isn for everyone personally like but you find little harsh but otherwise like the car strongly suggest looking into the agree check out don mind but would say that was much stiffer might problem how about the for suspension well wouldn encourage passenger carrying the probe unless the person the front seat likes sit with his knees the dash mentioned the consumer reports write ups consider the back seat parcel shelf biggie though had been not have bought the car but definitely not family car true heard that the exhaust system has trouble but mine works fine haven heard about this one know that some the very early probes and maybe had problems with prematurely rusting mufflers which had this problem and read about least assume the one had was the one read about any case what happened was the weld between the muffler and the pipe feeding not mechanic broke case the dealer welded ordered replacement parts and put them when they got them suspect this some sort design flaw production flaw any case have earlier model and would expect worked out newer ones any case warrantee repair they get the keys back from what heard sounds like ford mazda had some problems with the probe and probably when they first went into production but think these problems have mostly been corrected this point that almost always expected with completely new car like this though have agree that they seem have some problesm but seriously feel the car design sound and expect very well second this there seems some things that slipped through but the car seems very sound while not perfection what you get awful lot for your money bill heiser heiser acs edu heiser world std com boston university boston btw bill has probe mailing list you might want subscribe you are interested more detail try request ford probe world std com did get that right never can remember the request goes the front the back john navitsky johnn eskimo com exercise right today
rec.autos	review ford taurus sho excerpts from rec autos apr review ford tauru mark rice mozart colu article uupcb cutting hou david bonds cutting hou dav bonds writes occasionally have trouble shifting into reverse the shifter refuses enter the gate and often grind the synchros trying get into gear watching this carefully the next couple months enter wait seconds and then into reverse they use the same synchros and you never least haven ground fit when using this technique like the manual says and put first then you can quickly into reverse waiting one more way which works manual trans cars driven and personal favorite the other suggestions above are great but try this one too while pushing the shifter gently towards reverse let the clutch out slowly right the friction point and the shifter will pulled into position you right the car won jump backward nor will the gears grind you will just glide back sam
rec.autos	viper car alarms mcrosbie batman bmd trw com writes article cdo uiuc edu uiuc edu ronald garnett writes hello auto enthusiasts stuff deleted viper also sells some fancy field disturbance sensor that supposedly detects people approcahing the car this primarily for convertibles have convertible and have looked this feature detail alpine actually makes better radar unit you want get one these has zones that can shut down independently that one side your car has pedestrian traffic something else that would trigger alarm shuts down the zone rather pulls tighter don see the real benefit these unless you have convertible that you leave the top down avoid the voice alarm that can added the radar package talks people they walk saw one installed lotus esprit the kids would taunt seeing how close they could get before warned them get back the owner finally disabled which defeats the purpose mind stuff deleted ron garnett more stuff deleted merrill neighbor runs viper distributorship and installs them all saturns sold area anne arundel county has with the viper voice alarm installed the alarm does everything turn the car the radio the heater roll down windows unlock the doors the alarm goes off more frequently hot days when person walks gets sensitive about feet degree heat isn bad convetional siren alarms because doesn continue wail just says protected viper please stand back and shuts mainly because the person walks away befuddled chintan amin the university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	best radar detector valentine article apr sequent com troy sequent com troy wecker writes let explain why feel the bogey counter feature gimmick radar waves bounce off objects especially metal that how radar speed measurement works high frequency microwave band approx ghz and approx ghz sent out and reflected back the antenna off automobile other objects object moving doppler shift about per mph band occurs measured and converted miles per hour these waves bounce all over the place and they can reflect many times and many directions from what understand the valentine can only tell these microwaves are coming from the front rear both there are only two antennas they are coming from both this interpreted side bogey bogey counts are determined sources their relative strength one another even they are reflections the same source certainly engineer and really have scientific basis which make this argument but don you answer your own question the reflected signal shifted all from the act being reflected wouldn then easy for the detector discriminate between reflections and direct sources here the problem since the microwaves reflect how does the unit tell source reflection take valentine and drive the local grocery store that uses band radar door opener you can tell the small black box above the door pointed down about degree angle and your detector going off when gets near the valentine will count bogeys from all directions front rear and sides doesn say which side the count changes cars drive and reflections change there sources not the store drive around with standard detector can only find one source and that the door opener for the front door troy wecker troy sequent com sequent computer systems beaverton david hwang david ganglion ann arbor
rec.autos	best radar detector valentine article apr convex com tobias convex com allen tobias writes article apr sequent com troy sequent com troy wecker writes each valentine hand tuned maximum performance all the radar bands coverage this course adds the labor cost and turn the cost the unit live the backyard the folks who make the stalker radar system the valentine has saved many many many times from the stealth revenue enhancement traps the local area have had all the major brand detectors and imho nothing else even comes close the don work for valentine just satisfied user their unit you really want the nitty gritty details all this call the nice folks valentine research they will more than happy explain their perspective radar detection and analysis methods the calls free seems that there are more and more bands available for police radar each month have recently purchased within the last months the bel stw while not perfect detector any means does the job fairly well now however pick car magazine the airport and read about this super wideband which superset the wideband that this latest generation detectors was touted covering now bel has new series detectors out that cover all the usual bands photo wideband well the new super wideband just there comes point diminishing returns when chasing increased computing power with faster and faster cpus for the average home consumer least seems that there now the same concern with radar detectors does make sense upgrade just months after purchasing new detector valentine upgrading their equipment might worth for upgrade the valentine was the market for valentine when purchased the bel but the month waiting time was just too much for since had inadequate protection with passport life was much simpler when there was just and band and escort has the best equipment the market and there was need continuously shop for new detector hope that the flood new radar bands ceases with this new super wideband business allen tobias technical email convex computer corp marketing tobias convex com waterview parkway richardson one cares how much you know until they know how much you care david hwang david ganglion ann arbor
rec.autos	car tinting hello again anyone here done any tinting work what are the best brands out there how about applications heard there was water based brand that you can move around till just right and you then let dry like that also would consider having professionally done how much around wisconsin chcago area that does decent job fairly cheap college kid thanks for all the info what the maximum legal tint limit homi csd csd uwm edu
rec.autos	choice gauges article ybo vcd com dmunroe vcd com dave gauge writes you had free reign design your own instrument cluster which gauges would you choose have beyond the basic set oil pressure oil temperature coolant temperature manifold vacuum ammeter voltmeter fuel pressure maybe problematic since you either need electronic sensor gauge pair you have mount the damn thing outside the car addition nice have big red idiot light check guages connected oil pressure oil temp coolant temp ammeter voltmeter with heaps guages hard look them all all the time the case oil pressure for example you want know right away your oil pump goes bad unlike coolant temperature minute two oil pressure would very bad thing adam adam adamg microware com uunet mcrware adamg the above not construed any way the official unofficial statements microware any microware employees
rec.autos	super mega automobile sighting exotics together article kjb constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes article qinnk phantom gatech edu grahamt phantom gatech edu graham thomas writes jmm virginia edu the blade runner writes sighting such fine beast but remember the mustang will forever the true king the road especially the shelby american king the road named steal planned camaro king the road thunder and maybe the mustang will forever king the road the isn road legal think the actually street legal although that particular question moot see the price figures below some are street legal some aren this car was right hand drive weren they all like that how much does for how many were made found shelby american guide there were grand total built coupes road cars iiis roadsters mirages ivs total additional uncompleted iiis twelve these cars were prototypes racing coupes road coupes eight coupes lhd iiis and rhd iiis the other breakdowns follow the above list were ivs the lhd rhd breakdown only given the iiis the prices for those which can bought are around the million mark last heard with projection some million thereabouts was second only some penny ante ferarri shelby won the fia world manufacturer cup with his cobras that was also the year that retired them from the shelby american racing team favor the ford program the next year that victory broke year ferarri winning streak well there lotsa info could spout but refrain much this information comes from hot rod magazine shelby american cobra mustang guide which has more info the shelby american fords than you could ever want know james james callison microcomputer coordinator oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not engineer but play one work the forecast calls for thunder bird hell thing killing man you take away all has and all ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	new integra for article ypt tsegw tse com pbhandar tsegw tse com parminder bhandari writes heard unconfirmed rumours that there new integra being released for well you can just about set your watch honda releasing new models every years and upgrade half way through the cars life the local acura dealership tells that the new integra will out very soon may june its hard find specific details the integra has been deleted from most the rest the world have seen them canada and australia well the but was discontinued after the first generation europe normally you can see new japanese models appear europe japan first and extrapolate from there reported that the engine would carryover think craig does anybody have any info this the local sales people know much can throw them parms still sig
rec.autos	the mustang article zzd mentor purdue edu marshatt feserve purdue edu zauberer writes disclamer this not flame you anger easily please petebre elof iit edu brenta peterson writes the next mustang will ford highest profile car attracts way more attention than the camaro firebird because heritage more embedded the general public don lie yourself and believe ford will forfeit that fyi they already did really when too bad that the current mustang can even compete with the new camaro without using active imagination the mustang cobra can check out right now few cars can compare with the camaro think about for car that will out perform all but few exotics you are now swearing look the stats they don lie there are comparable cars class certinaly not for its price ehhhh maybe the mustang cobra does good job for lower price and just taste what ahead the anniversary the original pony car unless the ford gets the romeo you don seriously believe that was designed for the mark viii only you hey can you imagine the potential modified folks few years will surpass the levels performance achieved the late thats scary just think corvettes are almost the performance levels cobra wow few years they might the performance levels ford wow man just think about james james callison microcomputer coordinator oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not engineer but play one work the forecast calls for thunder bird hell thing killing man you take away all has and all ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	bmw article apr ultb isc rit edu adn ritvax isc rit edu writes looked that bimmer yesterday has about kmi according owner odometer stopped working kmi drivess well sounds good body wants liked the car despite auto tranny but wife will primary driver this one and she wants auto the radio does not work untill the car warms and you honk the horn the seems have leak the sunroof sticky but operational odometer does not work mentioned before idle bit bouncy going from rpm rpm wipers are slow that teh gripes the owner says that changed radiator alternator rotors and calipers exhaust the biggest problem that the owner shifty sob telling strange stories hate that would never buy from persom like that except how often you see descent for that amount money also said that although could bring mechanicin wouldn let check the car taking garage suspicious and who knows what milage let know what check for given there practically rust know there was article few years back anybody remembers what issue mike don buy all the things you mentioned will just give you headaches later also sounds like the car needs lot work and you probably know bmw are not cheap fix either the owner sounds like shady character just trying take advantage someone sure sounds good but you should calculate how much the repairs will sounds like you would have sink least get everything fixed not more also never trust anyone far mileage concerned who knows how many miles are and how was driven sure people tell you bmw hold but you have consider any car subject wear and tear for all you know could have miles the thing you have remember that this isn the last around either just wait and keep shopping for around you can probably find one that better needs less repair and has legitimate mileage unlike the one you are considering take from guy who has been taken couple times good luck himsl
rec.autos	the mustang article otnm cybernet cse fau edu vlasis cybernet cse fau edu vlasis theodore writes can put valve with twin garret yugo and get sec thats useless its still yugo that will loose any race track the street yugo that will seconds will not lose the street that just too damn quick might wrapped around telephone pole the end that quarter mile but will there alone have you detroit beings compared the ultra long throw stick shifts the with the turbo buy mos you could replace the stock shifter with hurst short throw shifter available from ford motorsport any number other after market products boost the performance mustang camaro can you that with verily with any with the detroit aftermarket you can build mustang camaro which superior either car you mention for less than the sticker price either the torsen differential the compared the differential the that sounds every hairpin turn well gee works and doesn break transmits power the drive wheels and essentially zero maintenance and there aftermarket parts for ford and chevy rear ends too and bythe way and camaro both have drums the rear breaks hello this the well the mustang cobra which from all reports uses the same running gear mustang has wheel disks can speak for the new camaro but think does too also stop and think about the markets here the mustang and always has been mass market sporty car that where the pony car class came from with performance model that why has the econo box running gear that was also factored into the design the mustang from the day lee iacocca conceived his baby was designed wide market car sporty yet accessible with room for performance tweaking the cars you listed are designed for specific market niche and they both fit those niches very well the mustang least does well multiple markets can speak for the camaro james james callison microcomputer coordinator oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not engineer but play one work the forecast calls for thunder bird hell thing killing man you take away all has and all ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	last the interceptors mad max tony believe first all that max car austrailian built car don think its chopped unit may called kangaroo roo something similar not sure but recall reading that austrailian cars used ford engines the ford interceptor think cop car motor whatever the case that small car with screaming big block ford would probably smoke the tires for miles kilometers hope someone out there can elaborate the subject smoke hard smoke fast later david hertrich lincoln continental
rec.autos	what car this deloreans never had factory they were considering production with turbo twin turbo forget version the standard who produced you got jonathan jdrout scott skidmore edu
rec.autos	the mustang article mux bpr constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes article zzd mentor purdue edu marshatt feserve purdue edu zauberer writes disclamer this not flame you anger easily please petebre elof iit edu brenta peterson writes the next mustang will ford highest profile car attracts way more attention than the camaro firebird because heritage more embedded the general public don lie yourself and believe ford will forfeit that fyi they already did really when too bad that the current mustang can even compete with the new camaro without using active imagination the mustang cobra can check out you think mustang cobra can match the performance new interesting belief craig who neither owns nor wants own any ford product craig
rec.autos	 article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian queiser writes cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes aas cwru edu andrew spencer writes think that technicaly known degree vee configuration could wrong this how seen them referred then what flat engine flat deg horizonatlly opposed usually also equals boxer however think the term traditionally reserved for and and firing order matters this was talked about here many months back can remember the consensus examples ferrari flat boxer porsche flat subaru impreza flat regards not inject non automotive note this thread but the bmw opposed twin used motorcycles for long time and always has been known boxer ken franklin they say there heaven for people who wait ama and some say better but say ain gwrra rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints dod the sinners are lots more fun know only the good die young
rec.autos	last the interceptors mad max asdch acad alaska edu writes tony believe first all that max car austrailian built car don think its chopped unit the last mad max based holden australia holden linked with vauxhall and they quite unlikely use ford parts chris crh regent technik muenchen
rec.autos	 article apr engr washington edu eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot writes article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian queiser writes examples ferrari flat boxer porsche flat subaru impreza flat think you got the other way round the ferrari flat degree and not true boxer while the subaru and porsche are true boxers don know about the bug though but suspect that also true boxer eliot are you serious the auto that had lot with bringing the term boxer the popular forefront was the ferrari berlinetta boxer the had liter opposed cylinder engine ken franklin they say there heaven for people who wait ama and some say better but say ain gwrra rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints dod the sinners are lots more fun know only the good die young
rec.autos	nissan nomenclature was manual shift bigots wanted the european version called and have liter engine with turbo and have more power than the version goes from sec and have top speed miles just purchased one new and looking for repair book could not find one france and germany does anybody knows where find one there one the probabaly use look the the have here different motor very pleased with the car and have problem with but like have good technical documentation about the car own regards
rec.autos	 ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes curious about knowing which commericial cars today have engines don know any legend don know any jaguar xjs please add the list thanks ssave ole cdac com this joke geof evans domain rxkgre minyos rmit they really wanna know tell that god was drunk
rec.autos	does car wash hurt the cars finish can taking the car car wash hurt the car finish and better hand wash about once month just take the car wash anyway are detailing places worth the money good careful job washing and waxing detail place going worth reply email address pfk crux cit cornell edu views reflect cornell sue them dry
rec.autos	tires comparison eve looking buy new tires don have much spend but would like tire that will last does anyone have any experience with the following brands riken falken bfg general there are others but these can find here for under like said mostly interested threadwear then speed since hardly get drive them over mph also true that noone will give you warranty such tires according tire dealer finally tires last longer than tires threadwear again that strictly speed factor thanks for any replies whatever doesn kill makes stronger internet vpopesc calstatela edu bitnet vpopesc csla bitnet
rec.autos	lexus and infiniti article issa cwis issa cwis unomaha edu issa hazin writes don the numbers the car names above refair the engine size liters litre engine liter sport coupe and liter similar kinda bmw and nameing deal issa funny thought the numbering scheme for both lexus and infiniti was related sticker price more than anything else infiniti around around lexus rip around lexus around etc there conspiracy theory there spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos kocrsv delcoelect com software technology delco electronics hughes electronics kokomo post therefore armm
rec.autos	engines article apr kronos arc nasa gov chucko freud arc nasa gov chuck fry writes article apr mit edu singer mit edu matthew singer writes didn the saab sonnett have recall someone telling that was something like ford not only the sonett correct spelling but the wagon and sedan used from ford germany this particular motor had degree vee angle balance shaft and siamesed exhaust ports this motor was later stretched into the commonly seen the capri think was the reverse the being the the could make pretty reasonable power for its size but the saab made too much torque for the transmission which had been designed for cylinder stroke was also the worst engine that ford europe have ever made bloody awful reputation most successful application being the transit van saab gave with this motor and then made the triumph half stag under license believe but with litre capacity and perhaps different arrangement for the cylinder head studs before developing their own straight four from the triumph kevinh hasler ascom
rec.autos	impala going into still can understand all the hype about the impalla still has the ugly caprice body orca wheels the caprice was the worst new body style come out detroit ever now just because the engine and few suspension tweeks are being added its still ugly its still barge answer everything throw and someone will buy add some plastic ground affects and few stickers and call gtz and someone will buy imho needs scrap the caprice body completely and start over with blank sheet paper minor modification wheel well treatments tail amp modification nose design even the engine will help the existing caprice jeff
rec.autos	best radar detector valentine extended bands recently bought band detector you guys must all think nuts right well did little research into usage this area and found out that not currently being used this state well surrounding states here how found out cop friend who did spend time nailing speeders doesn even know what heard which what they use here and explained that used for photo radar etc then said yeah stands for automatic duuhh then went say that plans were being made for getting laser guns far going high tech were concerned but didn know too much year old band whistler was consistently going off speed traps even the real sneaky ones when called the escort shop they confirmed that not used here surrounding states they did claim that laser was being used lot here which was quite skeptical the end instead spending lot money and waiting months for state the art detector got low priced high performance band escort incidentally its performance equal their top the line model and band detection know that escort has been surpassed other brands lately but never fully relied detector and was convinced that the escorts would least quite good which was good enough for and wallet eliot
rec.autos	car buying story was christ another dealer service scam article apr slcs slb com dcd houston geoquest slb com dan day writes article apr newsgate sps mot com rapw email sps mot com writes before you find out the invoice prices the car add reasonable profit for the dealer offer them that price and stick whoa watch your terminology dealer invoice not dealer cost that probably true but the closest that you going get the actual dealer cost depends lot things and even the dealer probably doesn know exactly what will until all the factory kick backs incentives etc are paid and that often depends his volume the end the month quarter whatever might funny munber but all you have start with except the sticker and anyone who pays sticker price really being ripped off mark
rec.autos	 have seen lots discussion automobile engine configuration let ask similar question from the aviation field you must have seen images prop planes with all cylinders exposed have seen cylinders positioned radially circular fashion with the prop the center the circle this arrangement always brings geometric dilemma how can one crankshaft throw accomodate rods are the pistons displaced but not visible from the outside bijan
rec.autos	review ford taurus sho article kfr ewc wtt andrew cmu edu sam swett ssbc andrew cmu edu writes one more way which works manual trans cars driven and personal favorite the other suggestions above are great but try this one too while pushing the shifter gently towards reverse let the clutch out slowly right the friction point and the shifter will pulled into position you right the car won jump backward nor will the gears grind you will just glide back sam can vouch for this method sho this the only sure way putting the reverse without any problem every time vikas sontakke digital equipment corporation maynard internet sontakke helix enet dec com uucp decvax ucbvax allegra decwrl helix enet sontakke sontakke helix enet decwrl dec com
rec.autos	license plates article anl ollie solbourne com guerra solbourne com edi guerra writes would like know anyone still has copy the list license plates that were posted some time ago regarding special names and sayings thxs edig too markus
rec.autos	bmw parts greetings automobile enthusiasts can anyone tell there mail order company that sells bmw parts discounted cheaper than the dealerships sorry faq email replies very much appreciated thanks jeff strait strait uicsl csl uiuc edu university illinois phone you ladies leave this island you survive basic recruit training you will weapon minister death praying for war
rec.autos	honda clutch chatter also experience this kinda problem bmw during cold start ups the clutch seems sticky and everytime drive out for about the clutch seems stick onto somewhere that depress the clutch the whole chassis moves along but after preheating becomes smooth again think that your suggestion being some humudity right but there should some remedy also found out that clutch already thin but still alright for couple grand more
rec.autos	those nasty insurance people hello everyone have insurance question allstate insurance situation person wrecks car car drivable dealer person reports accident other cars involved driver estimates damage cost exceedes cost car insurance people claim car totalled because exceeding repair costs person says wwhhhaatttt but drove the car here and takes another place other place estimates damage less than the dealer one more hitch the car registered florida but the accident occurred pennsyvania question should the insurance recognize and pay for the damages this now fixable car even though they prematurly declared totalled please respond via mail you think you know anything about this sort thing chris camp wpic pitt edu thanks
rec.autos	ford probe import car the year jfl msuinfo msu edu newman cps msu edu timothy newman writes okay okay know the ford probe made the fact made michigan mazda plant question are most the parts from american japanese sources have been told that most the assembly plants for japanese automakers import almost all the parts used the vehicles any information anyone has this will appreciated ford aimed for content when they designed the new probe actual practice came out content any example the that imported may the engine and brakes least the had missybitchy brakes tim newman newman cps msu edu bob
rec.autos	saturn extended warranty article rrw austin ibm com login austin ibm com writes owned saturn for and year and half and didn have the extended warranty but just traded for for reasons that won mention unless someone wants know opted for the year mile extended with deductible sorta like buying health insurance you could say that you not sick now and haven been sick for while but you can guarantee that you won sick tomorrow little money invested today better than being sick tomorrow and now being able pay for having pay lot more tomorrow than you can today justify all you want extended warranties are ripoff high profit item for the dealer and you didn buy you get free what you bought and you still have pay every time you use this great warranty better put your money the bank and use for repairs when you need considering that your last car was only years old are you sure you will even keep this new one past free warranty period btw typical profit extended warranties around that right only the money needs into the collective pot pay for any future repairs that the group extended warranty people collect
rec.autos	the mustang and bythe way and camaro both have drums the rear breaks hello this the vlasis theodore good point you would think now that most car companies would just make wheel disc standard and done with can really cost that much more for disc especially when you think the economies scale they would gain just making them all wheel disc seperate parts numbers and orders etc btw the and trans and formula have wheel disc but the bottom line models have the rear drums
rec.autos	car saftey important safety important criterium for when buying car won buy small car like civic whatever great safety handling speed for evengreater safety handling speed for the rich merc sel
rec.autos	changing oil yourself idiots article apr tulane edu mark luke cray com mark dean says quit whining the net about changing your oil yourselves you can handle such simple procedure changing your oil then get somebody else and get the hell off the network cool off these people have much right here you btw this the kind friendly helpful service should expect from cray
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all time article bense oasys navy mil bense oasys navy mil ron bense writes article apr lehigh edu amh lehigh edu alois himsl writes article apr jpl devvax jpl nasa gov nancy hayduke nancy feagans writes ashtrays and cigarette lighters these should option you forget that the cigarette lighter plug essential for plugging radar detectors and lights the ashtrays are also essential because they are great places keep change and tokens wouldn you rather have some type standard electrical plug instead that fire hazard waiting happen adaptor know would and would also prefer have sensibly placed cup holders instead ashtray car came with coin holders already built ron exactly you took the words right out mouth ron nancy feagans jet propulsion lab nancy jpl devvax jpl nasa gov not shred evidence exists favor the idea that life serious
rec.autos	corolla spd there maybe you can help have corolla with speed the subject line says the gearbox seems excessivly clunky used have corolla and was also somewhat clunky but had more miles and wasn nearly bad this car there fluid the speed case there could just low need change recall only the autos have fluid just mistaken please flames for owning import also have old dodge but not very good shape these days thanks derek
rec.autos	datsun nissan cars well the opel deal fell through now looking datsun for sale our local buy sell any previous owners have any experience with these cars besides looking for rust good compression low miles and all the other usual car things one looks for there anything special about these cars that should watch out for how about things like handling performance mileage etc these cars look hot eyes least and bear more than passing resemblance the aston martin zagato which has one the most beatiful cars ever made what the difference between the rather unappealing imho but the other cars are decent thanks again darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu
rec.autos	waxes polishes article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bbarnard magnus acs ohio state edu bret barnard writes with spring upon time start waxing again was wondering anyone had any suggestions about waxes and polishes know carnuba wax often recommended the net but was wondering about the colored waxes cover some minor scratches the colored waxes give overall good quality shine are they good for the paint clear coat what about liquid glass clear polish which dries clear thus filling scratches good for the paint clear coat please post with both good and bad experiences and hey let name names brands here all gimmicks stick with plain carnauba wax that non abrasive eagle meguiars turtle wax and few others are good examples the colored waxes just color the scratches they not apparent the better approach buff minor scratches completely off with cleaner mild abrasive never tried liquid glass although still have this sample they sent few years back aaron
rec.motorcycles	your opinion and what means some real stupid remarks you and the beav should lighten esp the beav agree that lots serious dribble for real reason hey don really care but when someone sends email telling fuck off get rather pissed posted the net could really care less but sending mail just childish infant just that infant give him few more years grow and maybe learn some network etiquette you can stand the flames and you don have the brains stay out the newsgroup kind catchy est pas the beav mike beavington dod sabre mbeaving bnr employer has idea what talking about
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies article wrs wslack uucp wrs wslack uucp bill slack wrote folks the shaft doesn have diddleysquatpoop with can get the front wheel off the ground ferchrissake the statement above true the spirit the list because false statement misinformation that the spirit bill will wheelies because chain drive model john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	need advice for riding with someone pillion one point not yet mentioned hands the driver shoulders are definite feels good for the passenger stretch her arms and shoulder massage feels good too but the shoulders are connected the arms and the arms the handlebars should you hit the brakes the pressure the shoulders can make steering interesting bundle her cold make sure she has good gear say again pat her thigh let her know all great good luck mike
rec.motorcycles	mail order response time article oasys navy mil sturges oasys navy mil richard sturges writes have ordered many times from competition accesories and ussually get day delivery once they had backorder something but they sent card say would two weeks came days ordered fork seals and guide bushings from for fzr two weeks later get fork seals and guide bushing call and ask for remaining guide bushing and order slide bushings explain the phone which bushings are which the guy seemed understand two weeks later get guide bushings sigh how much you wanna bet that once get all the parts and take the fork apart that some parts won fit axel
rec.motorcycles	exhaust coating since least one other person was interested this fzr black exhaust pipes are rusty and researched getting them repaired yesterday bought can vht degree black header paint and spent hour sanding two the header pipes hand sprayed paint thought about how clean was able get the metal with sanding and determined that wouldn all suprised the paint wore chipped off month soooo call couple places minneapolis and discover that powder coating while extremely durable will not handle over degree temperatures the place talked said they were experimenting with some new powder that supposed handle degrees but that wouldn available for months least they directed another shop that specializes header coating the other shop said they have coatings available one aluminized that can degrees and comparable powder coating for durability the other silicon think based and can degrees but thinner and not durable both coatings have textured finish not super smooth and should cleaned with hot water and brush price for foot header pipes and foot collector was planning take the parts friday and get them back ups next week maybe wednesday sounds like this kind coating stuff should way better than paint considering how much abuse the pipes get from road crap rocks axel
rec.motorcycles	was little hasty article apr megatek com randy megatek com writes perhaps dwi lousiana confined liquor everything louisiana related liquor eating sleeping walking talking church state life death and everything between plus the food good too ray shea they wound like very effective method unisql inc leah unisql ray utexas edu some days miss boon real bad dod team twinkie hawk
rec.motorcycles	question article apr research nec com behanna syl nec com chris behanna writes article ldinn frigate cis ohio state edu fields cis ohio state edu jonathan david fields writes this probably stupid question but new the motorcycle scene don really know anything about what dod this has setup lookit same site arnie skurow probably just want see how many faq they get well here goes
rec.motorcycles	countersteering sans hands article gbnvgw quantum qnx com dagibbs quantum qnx com david gibbs writes yes even when steering hands you something quite similar countersteering basically turn left you quick wiggle the bike the right first causing counteracting lean occur the left this sounds suspiciously like black magic quick wiggle the right you mean that the handlebars turn toward the right before turning the left what the input the steering mechanism that makes this happen the absence the old shove shove david karr karr cornell edu bmw dod also bmwmoa nra aclu
rec.motorcycles	battery charger article netnews upenn edu sanjay kin lap upenn edu sanjay sinha writes just noticed that halogen table lamp runs off volts the big thinngy that plugs into the wall says volts the question can trickle charge the battery with you could but would considerably cheaper spend trickle charger from mart venture target then would replace the halogen lamp power supply after you fuse trying pump current into the battery while charging the charger should putting out around volts well jonathan quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf gleep naperville there nothing quite like the pitter patter little feet followed the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	dual sport recomendations looking buying dual sport type motorcycle this first cycle well interested any experiences people have with the following motorcycles good bad honda suzuki suzuki yamaha most xxx yyy articles have seen magazines pit the honda against another cycle and the always comes out shining safe assume that the would equal quality thanks joe
rec.motorcycles	good reasons wave each other article apr hydro jlevine hydro jody levine writes article mavenry altcit eskimo com maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes waving other bikers makes more sense than just hey how going nice meet you the road have good ride keeps you the habit watching really carefully for bikes when you cage this good thing has anyone while driving cage ever waved bikers get the urge but never actually done had people cages wave give the thumbs occassion always return the wave thumbs that never happened until started riding harleys that may have something with why not try waving what bad could happen russian roulette fun times out paul blumstein paulb harley tti com dod abate ama hog doh laa marc arrl platypus qrp arpci naswa lwca rcma cala transaction technology inc santa monica
rec.motorcycles	type spesifications vfr etc article lnr agate berkeley edu robinson cogsci berkeley edu michael robinson writes article apr adobe com cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes article srgenprp com frankb sad com frank ball writes honda designates engine street bike for for twin how about honda hawk twin but not called new technology yeah and what about honda also twin but the other direction cycle experimental got this from mechanic lamb honda cbr allen tobias technical email convex computer corp marketing tobias convex com waterview parkway richardson this bike awesome and fearless let jay gleason
rec.motorcycles	krypto cables was cobra locks article csundh ursa csundh ursa calvin edu charles sundheim writes follow had bad experience krypto lock too last year bought krypto cable long something like that that all standards seemed like decent piece until used anyway short the cables seems pretty useless would guess the larger cable seems much better unit got the larger cable about inch diameter actually think its larger about feet long which coils into inch coil with the tubular key lock like the locks has worked fine for for two years now and seems anyway that very secure doesn have the weaknesses that the locks have other than the liquid nitrogen trick supposedly much easier store tankbag than lock and more versatile got mine from one the mail order houses motorcycle accessory warehouse beleive for combination with ignition disable and couple other deterrents all usually worry about vandalism randy davis email randy megatek com pilot uunet ucsd megatek randy dod but this one goes eleven nigel tufnel spinal tap
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies article stafford stafford winona msus edu stafford vax winona msus edu john stafford writes article wrs wslack uucp wrs wslack uucp bill slack wrote folks the shaft doesn have diddleysquatpoop with can get the front wheel off the ground ferchrissake the statement above true the spirit the list because false statement misinformation that the spirit bill will wheelies because chain drive model john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply knew when posted that was going get into trouble now suppose have give wheelie demos the spring fling something but you right john chain drive model think goes around the camshaft and over the rocker arms something stolen from early spagthorpe design according urban legend bill wrs gozer com bill slack dod but her tears were shed vain and her every word was lost the rumble his engine and the smoke from his exhaust
rec.motorcycles	wanted bmw insu tips now the market for buying bmw the ideal would but interested here any for sale age not problem more interested good example without massive amount miles and one which has been well maintained intend keep well and for some time would also like know anyone has any sound advice regards insurance old licence for years accidents claims convictions old enough get bmw owners club insurance yet will have wait until next year ian future beemer owner
rec.motorcycles	need advice for riding with someone pillion article dsc well rwert well bob wert writes need some advice having someone ride pillion with ninja this will the the first time taken anyone for extended ride read farther than around the block riding some twisty fairly bumpy roads the mines road hamilton loop for you bay areans extended ride passenger ninja owww well hate wet sock but well was passenger many bikes for the longest time before started riding myelf and grew hate long rides sport bikes the passenger seats are not designed for long rides the passenger positions aren even usually designed for short rides ended torturing knees and back taking long rides passenger sport bikes one the reasons originally liked current guythingy much was becase had bmw suggest shorter extended ride first short turn the mountains some such then see how much pain she and proceed from there the best advice give beginning passenger don get the bike until the rider says its and work out some sort signal for the rider tell you when its get off after get the bike squeeze riders hips tell that ready and the stop nods his head show its for get off keep your feet the pegs all times don wiggle unless your rider asks you the best passengers are those which are unobtrusive echo the movements and lean your rider look over the shoulder thats most comfortable but during turns look over the shoulder the inside the turn get used your rider shifting style riders use reasonably consistent shifting style avoid helmet bonk helmet bonk when your rider revs the bike and then shifts and the sudden change foreward acceleration causes your helmet bonk his hers gets old real fast when pulling stop put hand both hands the tank keep your weight from pushing your rider onto the tank putting your hands the tank also good way stretch your back you pain but told gets harder steer turns you leave them there switch your hands the guardrail stretch your shoulders but sure and squeeze your thighs while you doing your rider knows you still there the guard rail isn safe holding onto your rider don afraid ask for frequent stops you pain losing feeling your feet passenger seats are not generally designed for comfort work out some sort pull over signal beforehand laura lemay lemay netcom com writer trifles shadows and blood
rec.motorcycles	new motorcycles article mdennie beryllium mdennie xerox com matt dennie writes netnews upenn edu sanjay kin lap upenn edu sanjay sinha writes article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes curtis jackson pens msf course shyah the one here only costs izzat deal what they are free philadelphia who pays for these cheapie msf deals are your states subsidizing them here they are for erc and for msf and the state doesn subsidize ours all for every motorcycle endorsed license laz
rec.motorcycles	need advice for riding with someone pillion article zowie apr daedalus stanford edu zowie daedalus stanford edu craig powderkeg deforest writes turn dynamics sit that you feel like you sitting upright good advice please sudden moves lady taps the shoulder let know she uncomfortable turn prepared for her move about the back the bike trust essential had bad crash nail rear tire left hand sweeper crest hill pavement pea gravel road and her actions helped lessen the severity were crashing she stayed upright the saddle with her feet the pegs and her hands about waist was able get the bike slowed down mph before were high sided she got off with fair case road rash and had have the doc remove lot rocks from knee had she panicked would have probably crashed greater speed causing greater injury btw soon the tire went flat went into violent tank slappers this what she rode out normal riding posture dod technician speed not student stolen taglines god real unless declared integer came saw deleted all your files black holes are where god dividing zero the world will end minutes please log out earth full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	good reasons wave each other article apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes waved guy riding mower this morning does that count btw live the country everyone waves out here dod technician speed not student stolen taglines god real unless declared integer came saw deleted all your files black holes are where god dividing zero the world will end minutes please log out earth full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies previous article xlyx vax cit cornell edu says possible wheelie motorcycle with shaft drive absolutely early were very good this mike terry virago don try your virago unless you already are purty good like the smell exploded clutch fast take chances mike
rec.motorcycles	wanted advice for new cylist article apr hsh com binger hsh com writes article apr hydro jlevine hydro jody levine writes the question have how dangerous riding might only add two things stupid road design poor least and here louisiana the state sign caution sub standard roadway dod technician speed not student stolen taglines god real unless declared integer came saw deleted all your files black holes are where god dividing zero the world will end minutes please log out earth full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	what squid was riceburner respect dana myers the tue apr gmt wibbled article qqxp cbmvax cbm commodore com hartzler cbmvax cbm commodore com jerry hartzler cats writes article apr icomsim com mmanning icomsim com michael manning writes duck squids don wave return waves ever even each excuse for being ignoramus but what are these squids are everybody but and you chris behanna especially squid dana myers bmw squid two arms are longer too nick the biker dod concise oxford longer arms lud nick pettefar contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated bnr npet bnr bmw kay maidenhead the united kingdom pres pbwasoh
rec.motorcycles	paint jobs the lisa rowlands the wed apr wibbled can anyone recommend good place for reasonably priced bike paint jobs preferably but not essentially the london area thanks lisa rowlands alex technologies ltd house uxbridge road tel ealing fax london email lisa alex com lisa try pip she does wonderful things with paint seen her work and good best luck nick the well connected biker dod concise oxford boring paint job lud nick pettefar contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated bnr npet bnr bmw kay maidenhead the united kingdom pres pbwasoh
rec.motorcycles	happy easter dave edmondson the wed apr gmt wibbled nick pettefar npet bnr wrote kevinh the tue apr gmt wibbled jonathan quist bemoaned yes minor blasphemy that companies would the likes jaguar sob lotus outright sacrilege for have non british ownership fundamental thing lotus looks set for management buyout weren happy that the elan was late and too pricey they can write off the elan development costs the may able sell them for sensible price think there legal clause the name regardless who owns must british company owner can sell the company but not the name kevinh hasler ascom don believe that have anything with seperate company from the aero engine company vickers who own rolls royce cars and yes kevin posts morgan use sliding pillar front suspension bike long bleeding last when will that pettefar bloke get mail address can bung him the ogri list dave david edmondson davide dcs qmw queen mary westfield college dod guzzi mans this means the end the horse drawn zeppelin what you mean like the one bleedin signature hello nick the connected biker dod concise oxford mail address lud nick pettefar contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated bnr npet bnr bmw kay maidenhead the united kingdom pres pbwasoh
rec.motorcycles	insurance discount article apr organpipe uug arizona edu asphaug lpl arizona edu erik asphaug writes the way moving the bay area insuring the bikes there and registering them ease the shock can somebody guesstimate the cost insuring and here tucson they only cost full and liability only for the two per annum agent daniel sui and done quite good job for you might check with him located san francisco and specializes bike insurance daniel sui insurance balboa street san francisco michael michael nelson cbr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod
rec.motorcycles	looking for movies bikes article apr isc com jeq lachman com jonathan quist writes freebie and the bean great chase scene trials bike dod technician speed not student stolen taglines god real unless declared integer came saw deleted all your files black holes are where god dividing zero the world will end minutes please log out earth full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	max handling request article tcora gator pica army mil tcora pica army mil tom coradeschi writes jearls tekig pen tek com jeffrey david earls wrote ntuvax ntu writes hello there can anyone who has handson experience riding the yamaha max pls kindly comment its handling some guy came the omrra race school last weekend with number plates his max didn get more than practice laps before pushed the frame too hard and drove him into the guard rail the back straight btw the rider was conscious and semi coherent when the ambulance carted him off that all know hate pick someone who may have been seriously injured let hope not but semi coherent sounds like good description someone who shows the track vmax the first place what does that make for showing with old interceptor with worse brakes and handling due bent frame than vmax and didn even well was more than semi coherent when the ambulance nevermind axel
rec.motorcycles	need parts info for maicoletta scooter article uea slack sim com pashdown slack sim com pete ashdown writes also looking for brakes info relining existing shoes vintage brakes bluefield ave newbury park they reline all types obsolete motorcycle brake shoes with ferodo material also any other maicoletta owners anywhere have contact with place try deutsches motorrad register grover place shreveport club for all types two wheeled german equipment including scooters periodically see ads for maico scooter stuff their newsletter dave tharp dod you can wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra indian scout indian chief ahrma its brother the chief ama they built like rocks velorex nsu max take the knocks bmw compulsive the harleys that employer has idea joiner give you grief
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies article apr vax cit cornell edu xlyx vax cit cornell edu writes possible wheelie motorcycle with shaft drive only the front wheel use the lever the right handlebar accomplish this michael michael nelson cbr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod
rec.motorcycles	need maintenance tips article riwa world std com cgkarras world std com christopher karras writes after reading the service manual for bike suzuki have couple questions hope you can answer when checking the oil level with the dip stick built into the oil fill cap does one check with the cap screwed not most bikes seen that use dipstick rather than sight glass are designed check without screwing the manual for cbr they specifically state should done this way michael michael nelson cbr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod
rec.motorcycles	exhaust coating article coburnn spot colorado edu coburnn spot colorado edu nicholas coburn writes essbaum rchland vnet ibm com alexander essbaum writes fzr black exhaust pipes are rusty and researched getting them repaired yesterday bought can vht degree black header paint and spent hour sanding two the header pipes hand sprayed paint thought about how clean was able get the metal with sanding and determined that wouldn all suprised the paint wore chipped off month parts deleted axel axel why not just purchase one the fyex exhaust bras for about they look great and are cheaper than powder coating had the same dilemma and opted for these quite pleased what exhaust bra guessing not fabric thing that straps the pipes does over the chin fairing lowers some way usually don ride with the lower plastic axel
rec.motorcycles	kinder gentler bmw mailing list know there already bmw mailing list but since bike only list and limited the bikes well believe decided give this and see how much interest there please read all this post you plan subscribing the list there only one restriction for the discussion this list that about bmw don care which bmw any and all are welcome will probably post articles that appear the local bmw club newsletter and would incourage other club members the same especially tech articles subscribe the list send message the list address bmw rider cactus org with the word subscribe caps the subject the message having the word subscribe the subject the only way subscribe you put the keyword the message body your message will out everyone the list and you will ridiculed beyond belief your from line must have valid return address the list will use the address your from line you would like use return address other than what contained your from line not send mail the list send note directly joe rider cactus org and take care manually the list will hack the outgoing message from line that your original full name preserved but the return address replaced with the mailing list address bmw rider cactus org this allows you simply reply message keep the list depending your mail interface natch use elm that what wrote for keep this mind when you reply message and question the authors parentage remove your name from the list send message the list address with the word unsubscribe caps the subject the message having the word unsubscribe the subject the only way remove your name from the list you put the keyword the message body your message will out everyone the list and you will ridiculed beyond belief the list run from home system poor little box running very old version something that smells somewhat like unix the mta isn the smartest around but managed hack enough make decent list mta additions and removals are handled automatically scripts that intercept messages based the subject see below and may occassionally goof the will send response message back when you subscribe you not receive response within reasonable amount time link via uucp and sometimes runs spurts send message joe rider cactus org and look into the list turns out too popular and the mta groks over the number addresses have freeze the list recipients until can come with better mta good luck joe senner joe rider cactus org joe mpd tandem com bmw mailing list bmw rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org
rec.motorcycles	personal michael moscoso michael you sent your inquiry the bmw mailing list but the replaces your return addr with the list addr can reply manually add you please see post the list contact directly joe senner joe rider cactus org bmw mailing list bmw rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org
rec.motorcycles	never needs valve adjustments bought yamaha with miles over the last years put commute miles onnit valve adjustment intervals are suppossed every well every checked the pad clearences and they never change anything the clearances seem getting little smaller which makes sense with the pad system the pads should wear until the clearances are too great right know that threaded adjusters can tighten but didn think these kind could bottom lines that haven touched valves for this bike and they are still nice and quiet and anything the clearances are tighter what the deal any other yam triple owners notice extremely long valve adjustment intervals
rec.motorcycles	good reasons wave each other article mdennie beryllium mdennie xerox com matt dennie writes apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes article apr ttinews tti com paulb harley tti com paul blumstein writes had people cages wave give the thumbs occassion always return the wave thumbs that never happened until started riding harleys that may have something with ever notice little kid wave more than other bikers the reactions little boys seems the most enthusiastic wave and also good see always wave when see kid that has least noticed bike figure helps the future the sport yeah impossible tough biker when year old starts waving you the beav mike beavington dod sabre mbeaving bnr employer has idea what talking about
rec.motorcycles	test ride gts article finnqsp spim mti sgi com timl zulu mti sgi com tim layman writes after signing the will buy the bike wreck and will not sue you matter what papers they just pointed the bike and said have fun was little nervous well lot nervous mainly because very expensive bike and would hate have buy new one let alone wrecked one are you sure harley disclaimer says you crash take care the bike you take care you you were really responsible for the bike did your insurance cover green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker green east sun com and showed him picture you said dod get know her you like her the grateful dead seemed like the least could
rec.motorcycles	good reasons wave each other article beryllium mdennie xerox com matt dennie writes genetic thing with little boys what even three and four year old boys seem magnetically attracted motorcycles virtaully any sort often the dismay thier mothers think you just answered your own question green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker green east sun com and showed him picture you said dod get know her you like her the grateful dead seemed like the least could
rec.motorcycles	wanted bmw insu tips benham the wed apr gmt wibbled now the market for buying bmw the ideal would but interested here any for sale age not problem more interested good example without massive amount miles and one which has been well maintained intend keep well and for some time would also like know anyone has any sound advice regards insurance old licence for years accidents claims convictions old enough get bmw owners club insurance yet will have wait until next year ian future beemer owner best advice would contact local dealer see the yellow pages under motorcycle dealers and ask for the address the local section bmw owners club the local bmw dealer will give you details the bmw insurance terms and the club will help you with all details getting bike from the dealer the best bet you can afford the warranty fairly handy bits are made from solid gold apart from the parts made from ruby and platinum apparently nick the perpetually broke bmw biker dod concise oxford loot lud nick pettefar contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated bnr npet bnr bmw kay maidenhead the united kingdom pres pbwasoh
rec.motorcycles	first bike honda ascot nbetz csi compuserve com nathan betz writes going buying first bike and considering honda ascot with less than miles does this sound like reasonable choice there anything special need know ascot was first bike recommend anyone interested mine for sale currently with bum starter and around miles like couple hundred for rich
rec.motorcycles	new motorcycles lmsc lmsc lockheed com writes thread degenerated comparative costs msf courses deleted hey even the highest price mentioned the course glassboro new jersey bargain worth every penny and there are lots things you get related your bike that won feel that way about patricia phj remus rutgers edu
rec.motorcycles	bmw heated grips article world std com artc world std com art campbell writes bergman panix com mark bergman writes those you who have the bmw heated handgrips what are they like during the summer yes you wiseguy mean while they are off are they comfortable they hard rubber like compound always wear some kind glove fingerless the hottest days given those two factors they but certainly not cushy when needed heated grips made them from pieces old bicycle inner tube and cheap electric heating pad from the drugstore top foam grips soft and warm cheaper about factor too david karr karr cornell edu
rec.motorcycles	death stroke why did die zebee wattle itd adelaide edu zebee johnstone writes loads horrendous engine problems deleted any ideas folks yeah buy four stroke
rec.motorcycles	with flames out the exhaust article ebt cmptrc lonestar org neal cmptrc lonestar org neal howard wrote hey the lone biker the apocalypse see raising arizona had flames coming out both his exhaust pipes love toggle the kill switch sportster produce flaming backfires especially underneath overpasses night loud and lights the whole underpass does keep people off ass they really back away when they see canon fire rolling out the back harley yea raises hell with the baffles john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	posted gif bmw article apr news columbia edu scs cunixb columbia edu sebastian sears wrote went and played columbia scanner and scanned bunch pictures new bmw they are however not color but greyscale gifs mind posting those the euro archive have directory specifically for bmws ftp vax winona msus edu user euro pass spooge bmw get and put you please john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	drinking and riding hartzler cbmvax cbm commodore com jerry hartzler cats writes article apr aber azw aber andy woodward writes generally find that after two three decent hits nitrous riding improves enormously drinking silly your breath smells costs lots money and the pigs can detect with their machines works for try and its free just sit behind old car jam and breathe deeply only there dentist the car otherwise you get out the back thinks you gots your gases confused what comes out cars carbon monoxide what comes out whippits nitrous oxide
rec.motorcycles	back breaker near hit about year and half ago when first started riding took msf course have taken those lessons heart over the past year have had only few near collisions with traffic morons four wheels yesterday got add another the list but with this one felt the most helpless sitting light about car lengths behind car wise decsion suddenly hear screeching tires dart eyes mirrors and realize the moroon flying right behind panic pop clutch and stall the bike luckily the guy stops foot behind rear wheel understand why you theoretically stop far behind car but can you really actuality avoid such incident suggestions
rec.motorcycles	need your advice new rider article apr bsu ucs cjmelching leo bsuvc bsu edu writes the tachometer has sticker right that says for the first miles not over rpm and for the next miles don over referred the break period you didn know well were that would never going over mph even gear question will hurt new cycle take the rpm range that can least the speed limit but you already can the speed limit rpm all you need find road with mph speed limit this isn quite silly sounds you take nice day trip over back roads not highways full people trying seriously get from here there then you might able hold mph comfortably you could easily miles over three different weekends you might even get enjoy some the scenery yes know this probably not why you bought called ninja david karr karr cornell edu bmw dod also bmwmoa nra aclu
rec.motorcycles	please tell they not permenant scratches mjs sys uea mike sixsmith writes bobm brimstone bob morley writes article sfppisk hpo andrew cmu edu catherine barbara saum andrew cmu edu writes while passngering fiance bandit hip pack rubbed against the tail and left nasty dull finish and teeny scratches there way get rid these buff them out wax them out help mcguyers makes full line polishing compounds and waxes read the lables and pick the one that matches the marks that you see the paint then both you and your fiance favor putting nice thick coat the carnuba wax the bike after that those little scratches will just buff out concours sophisticated lady tom dietrich sportster sport for sale dod spike the garage rat ama queued for fssnoc two jousts and gather big fun kspt bell cool rule but sometimes mail txd able mkt com com lewis disclaimer com takes responsibility for opinions preceding this
rec.motorcycles	how buy first bike etc article inform dev inform michael seales writes article apr galaxy gov bclarke galaxy gov writes there have been lot posts lately about wanna buy first bike gsxr cbr fzr good bike learn etc sure they are here can buy gsxr gsxr cbr cbr fzr fzr zxr what the problem small agile learner bikes well the problem just might that you can buy any these bikes north america except the gsxr bandit bruce clarke environment mail bclarke galaxy gov
rec.motorcycles	none thinking going motorcycle tour new zealand the november january timeframe there are few tour companies doing this notably beach tours can anyone who has done this let know their experiences both good and bad thanks bruce clarke environment mail bclarke galaxy gov
rec.motorcycles	well blow down yuk yuk yuk article apr news columbia edu rdc cunixf columbia edu robert castro writes when how you decide that too windy ride too easy when you are dragging your pegs while driving straight line actually driven mph side winds with just little difficulty the beav mike beavington dod sabre mbeaving bnr employer has idea what talking about
rec.motorcycles	contemplating ottawa san francisco ottawa trip article lbpvs quantum qnx com david gibbs dagibbs quantum qnx com writes greetings rec motorcyclists coming labour day weekend this year worldcon world science fiction convention will held san francisco california planning attend and have been speculating doing trip there motorcycle instead plane was initial thought live and would departing from ottawa ontario canada had planned take two weeks for this trip giving days travel time either side the weekend this looks like distance about miles your distance calc correct for the road distance and not the crow flies this day for days you spend the entire time interstates which would total waste time that least hours the road every day not including eating peeing sight seeing etc was contemplating similar trip but from ottawa maybe ottawa austin figured wanna trip this magnitude and enjoy have get ass off the major interstates and spend lots time enjoying the country around stopping with camera meeting towns people going few bars sense spending weeks looking out helmet with the closest human contact found the gas pump estimated need least weeks make the trip worthwhile looking for input opinions comments snarky remarks sanity question suggested routes note getting there important and schedule doesn leave lot room for side trips circuitous routes try and stay off the interstates anybody who wants join this trip for even part the distance depending your route and plans may heading that way far least detroit anything that comes mind and that you think might relevant call the whithorse pess they book distributer catering motorcyclists they have large number books highlighting the best roads for motorcyclists along the general route you looking they carry listings bed and breakfasts all through the states which accept motorcyclists order their free catalog and within you probably find books covering absolutely all you needs for this trip their the motorcyclist and cycle world classifieds thanks for any input david gibbs dagibbs qnx com kawasaki concours dod dave true they say that money talks when mine spoke said buy drink
rec.motorcycles	well blow down yuk yuk yuk article news columbia edu rdc cunixf columbia edu robert castro writes when how you decide that too windy ride when too windy stand when you the road high winds stay alert even more alert than your alert cause you motorcycle and they out kill you kind alert aware the terrain and how may funnel wind sudden gusts well not gusts somebody standing there but gusty cause you ride through you are riding steady crosswind aware hill that will block the wind and adjust your lean angle aware passing trucks your windward side your lean angle will change dramatically both you enter and you leave their turbulance cone reducing your profile may help lean the gas tank and kiss the triple clamp keep nimble hand the steering ready countersteer into and out sudden wind bursts keep larger than usual buffer zone both ahead and behind and the side you can easily blown half lane over before you can react countersteering keep close eye traffic your mirror someone coming wanting pass get out their way early stop often for short brakes extensive riding high winds both mentally and physically fatiguing green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker green east sun com and showed him picture you said dod get know her you like her the grateful dead seemed like the least could
rec.motorcycles	any xxxx mean police officers read this stuff bgardner pebbles com blaine gardner writes and introducing new polysyllabic word strabismic for example polysyllabic polysyllabic too
rec.motorcycles	starting trouble cbr article rpi edu chungy aix rpi edu yau felix chung writes having trouble starting keeping running cbr have had problems with since last year but seemed have subsided now back again problem persists regardless choke usage pattern gasoline type brand octane and pretty much anything else can imagine change the dealer stumped still under warranty start the bike runs great for while seconds then the engine starts slow down decreasing the idle setting will increase the engine speed increasing the choke increases the engine speed regardless the engine will eventually slow down and stop once stopped will not restart even after flooded engine drill let sit minutes starts beautifully and runs great for ever out ride hard for miles and bring back ride easy for few miles let cool down and put away next day thru the same drill get going any ideas has anyone seen this before another rider had similiar problems and this the mail sent him hope this helps resolve you problem allen tobias writes check the vent tube the tank sometimes the tube clogged constricted this prevents gas from flowing into the carbs because the vacuum created the displacement the gasoline this the small tube the bottom the tank the large tube the overflow you will have remove the left side tail section get access this area good luck but was clogged wouldn this interfere with engine operation all the time when runs runs well good point did not catch this the original post the only other things which come mind since this gravity feed fuel system this the fuel petcock valve vacuum controlled from the carburator let suppose there small hole bad seal either the hose itself the vacuum valve the fuel petcock when cold the hole open enough open the valve just enough allow gas the carbs with the choke since the choke creates more low pressure the carbs when draw gas and the engine and surrounding area warm the hole seals one way check fuel flow through the valve would pull the side panels off and remove the fuel hose the carbs connect tube the correct size preferably clear tubing observe fuel flow the output side the fuel petcock remove the control hose from carburator make sure the tank full place the valve the position and apply vacuum the control hose preferably with vacuum device with gauge check for air leaks with vacuum applied fuel should flow freely see there vent problem this with the fuel filler cap open and closed flows lot faster with the filler cap open then there may something the vent airway which changes position and depending the position may clog partially clog the vent have heard some fuel tanks being replaced fix this problem the things which might defective are the control hose from carb the petcock valve and possibly the fuel tank vent now all the above shows problem fuel flow when cold then there something the carbs screwed but there are many things check would typing all day list them all here are few with everything back together apply vacuum the petcock valve and open the drain holes the carbs one one check fuel flow open the airbox and check for foreign debris clogged airways the carbs there are quite few each carb hope something flushed out with all this trouble shooting american honda does not resolve this get mad hell and report them the bbb and call the honda customer service hotline number but don recall off the top head called just about tires for and few days later customer satisfaction inquiry card arrived home asking how liked the support received here would your chance tell them what you think buy the service manual the invaluable source information for working your bike and might add trouble shooting
rec.motorcycles	bikes jlevine hydro jody levine writes bike like jody levine dod got you can you jody levine hydro ride toronto ontario canada you know what syd meant when wrote that line damn the wrong newsgroup again wrong newsgroup what did syd mean when wrote that line erc the always curious dod
rec.motorcycles	maxima chain wax article wqsr myrddin imat com nelson seahunt imat com michael nelson writes article apr acs ucalgary parr acs ucalgary charles parr writes chain lubed wheel clean after careful was similarly impressed with first but recently have started finding rust spots the chain went back least the sucker never rusted when was using the bluegoo spray the chain wax onto the rollers and sideplates occassionally and rust will not problem later chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nec com baby bike disclaimer now why would nec needs name agree with any this anyway was raised pack wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	never needs valve adjustments smead hpstc rose com steve smead writes bought yamaha with miles over the last years put commute miles onnit valve adjustment intervals are suppossed every well every checked the pad clearences and they never change anything the clearances seem getting little smaller which makes sense with the pad system the pads should wear until the clearances are too great right know that threaded adjusters can tighten but didn think these kind could bottom lines that haven touched valves for this bike and they are still nice and quiet and anything the clearances are tighter what the deal any other yam triple owners notice extremely long valve adjustment intervals yeah had that was the same the valve seats tend wear very slowly and anything that might get taken off the pad which shouldn really wear will tend compensate sort self compensating system
rec.motorcycles	dogs bikes article rmccu cunyvm bitnet rmccu cunyvm bitnet robert chambers writes article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante says you can you obviously waited too long are not putting much effort into dog not always used fart all the time making her notice course the smell doesn bother her and thence kicking her outside somewhat literally she came realize that she shoudln least not around and now two years later she still doesn how big this dog now about the size cow ready burst what that supposed mean she lbs understand english she let wind break cause fed her cheap food and not the same thing every time she had adjust each different brand for while andy infante you can listen what everybody says but the fact remains bmw that you got get out there and the thing yourself dod joan sutherland opinions dammit have nothing with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	its still cold but pli hoc agate berkeley edu robinson cogsci berkeley edu michael robinson writes article apr aber azw aber andy woodward writes why just the other day large group where lamenting how much admire and wish could just like those macho british studs all grown idolizing well and thought all yanks were parochial ostriches some you can least aspire better things andy when are you ever going get straight all yanks are self satisfied gits the canadians that are parochial ostriches the yanks are are are midway through our insipid invasion florida and they aren even aware yet jorg klinger gsxr you only new who arch eng services lost horizons think umanitoba man the embalmer anonymous squidonk
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies article apr asl nec com drinckes tssc wlg nec writes course the only people who seem acting smug now probably have chain final drive which all know less efficient and has higher maintenance and probably didn know the answer the start the thread when did you out and change the laws physics according some numbers used see bandied around shaft drive the order efficient while chain drive closer seems that this makes chain drive more efficient hmmmmm and granted shaft has lot less maintenance which fine you don mind less performance randy davis email randy megatek com pilot uunet ucsd megatek randy dod but this one goes eleven nigel tufnel spinal tap
rec.motorcycles	your opinion and what means article wduw nmrdc nmrdc nnmc navy mil dsc jfs nmrdc nmrdc nnmc navy mil jim small writes article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes since the occurance paid many dollars renumerance taken the drunk class and yes listened all the self righteous assholes like yourself that think your above the rest the world because you never had your own little suaree some aren that fucking stupid you cock sucking asshole that why haven had our own little suaree soo impressed that you had spend your own precious little dollars make for your own stupid act now fuck off friends killed drunk driving assholes like andress infante children friends orphaned drunk driving assholes like infante now who the self righteous asshole you weak willed fuck head think you are small feeble minded bunghole yeah was one stupid little act when are people like you gonna get through they thick excuses for skull their pea sized piece shit they call brain that was once why don you back under the rock that the navy has provided for you and your homophobic racist sexist asshole friends that who give you daily rim jobs and place your opinion where belongs your ass alternatively blow you closeted wannabe andy infante you can listen what everybody says but the fact remains bmw that you got get out there and the thing yourself dod joan sutherland opinions dammit have nothing with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	need your advice new rider article apr bsu ucs cjmelching leo bsuvc bsu edu writes well were that would never going over mph even gear question will hurt new cycle take the rpm range that can least the speed limit had the same inconvenience when bought only could least mph during the initial break despite the high quality motor oils and motorcycle engines these days would follow the instructions and just keep city street riding for the first miles heck those miles fast and worth know you haven possibly screwed your engine the same time this has all the makings week long thread debating the whole break topic alan
rec.motorcycles	need your advice new rider article apr bsu ucs cjmelching leo bsuvc bsu edu writes have very important question that haven been able find answer asked mechanics and others about this but one can really give answer that satisfies just bought brand new kawasaki ninja first time buyer well first time rider and this bike seemed satisfy all needs this may the reason don know the answer this question the tachometer has sticker right that says for the first miles not over rpm and for the next miles don over referred the break period you didn know well were that would never going over mph even gear question will hurt new cycle take the rpm range that can least the speed limit any information that any you could give would greatly appreciated just send the reply account you like back the net thank you very much for taking the time read reply this chris melching the speed limit long your not the salt flats you arn gonna frag yer ride wouldn ride the dod minimum until had miles but hell that good weekend dod technician speed not student stolen taglines hey where did they you don think naahh
rec.motorcycles	dogs speedy mercer speedy engr latech edu wrote let fido have yer left arm bites bring your right forearm down hard the back his neck while bushing back and with the left arm fido mouth this will followed dull crack and one limp dog total cost you couple holes your left arm you arn wearing leather how does aerostitch hold with this procedure ordering mine monday may and happy about too mike mike mitten gnome org emory org gnome ama dod irony the spice life bianchi backstreet suzuki the revolution will not televised
rec.motorcycles	countersteering sans hands how steer when hands aren the bars open budweiser david gibbs replies just case the original poster was looking for serious answer supply one yes even when steering hands you something quite similar countersteering basically turn left you quick wiggle the bike the right first causing counteracting lean guess was semi serious without using hands lean and the bike turns when leaning torque applied deg angle the front wheel axle just countersteering however this torque also about deg from the axis the steering head instead making the bike lean gyroscopic effect makes the bars turn but don remember which way rick yeah tried this the driveway the centestand suggested somewhere else but doesn seem work the same rick clarke clarke bdrc com ama something something
rec.motorcycles	any xxxx mean police officers read this stuff article apr dsd com bgardner pebbles com blaine gardner writes flaming tutorial for the novice another thing consider that like mexican food lot folks mistake heat for quality subtle references various personal qualities habits ancestry possesions generally earn more points than four letter words the caps lock key and introducing new polysyllabic word strabismic for example likely insure that some small part your flame will become immortal zounds there blast from the past indeed nearly forgotten about the strategic significance strabismic lore really good see proudly displayed again although sure now that its carbs are spooge rama from long disuse gosh tingling all over chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	low powered bikes scooters does anybody share opinion that big city traffic bike can low powered that for example cant accelerate out trouble when necessary the screwed down versions bikes sold the german market with the different classes liscence seems make lot middle aged men putt putt around maschines that are constantle getting the way real traffic does anybody else have opinions this topic snuffy email snuffy zelator berlin ronald bartle ron looking for new work berlin voice but rent rooms again fax
rec.motorcycles	back breaker near hit article menudo edu inde rosie edu writes understand why you theoretically stop far behind car but can you really actuality avoid such incident suggestions even better strategy leave less buffer between you and the car front but enough manuver around keep the bike gear with the clutch handle squeezed how that for engaged disengaged until there are two cars stopped behind you when the next bdi cager comes screaching simply ride along side the car front you you don need panic and you will pop the clutch and stall the engine smoothly just rapidly the cage front you will provide much better protection than anything else particularly empty road green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker green east sun com and showed him picture you said dod get know her you like her the grateful dead seemed like the least could
rec.motorcycles	boom dog attack what worked for was lean towards the dog modulated throttle keep ankle just ahead his teeth after few seconds warm pipe firmly wedged his shoulder turned his face sideways see what was warm and got his mouth nose muzzle burned the pipes one yip and veered away never chase again neil kirby dod nak archie cbusa att com bell labs columbus usa you think speak for you might have more lawyers than sense
rec.motorcycles	why wanted police officers answer posting article shaman tek com robd orca tek com writes article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes you really expect cop answer these honestly first you gotta expect cop honest that another story yeah everybody knows cops always lie and the people they deal with day and day out always tell the truth sir occifer sir wazznut drinking tonight was just playing around back there sir wasn speeding was realy only going xxmph was that guy next didn see him come stereotyping cops better than those that stereo type what say try show the same open mind those around would ask for ourselves know its stretch but its worth try reason for saying that was cause were cop wouldn out way tell people how break the law would you the part about honesty was joke sorta obviously people have had bad experiences with cops lying obviously nobody perfect and nobody always tells the truth about everything are you god andy infante you can listen what everybody says but the fact remains bmw that you got get out there and the thing yourself dod joan sutherland opinions dammit have nothing with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	daytona rtaraz apr bigwpi wpi edu rtaraz bigwpi wpi edu ramin taraz writes well watched the daytona race tnn boy for the people who saw was the yamaha lot faster than the kawi what the last stretch the yami took and left the kawi the dust kawi rider and totaly disappointed the kawi lawson was the yamaha not taking anything away from russel but well jorg klinger gsxr you only new who arch eng services lost horizons think umanitoba man the embalmer anonymous squidonk
rec.motorcycles	its still cold but article ccu umanitoba klinger ccu umanitoba jorg klinger writes pli hoc agate berkeley edu robinson cogsci berkeley edu michael robinson writes andy when are you ever going get straight all yanks are self satisfied gits the canadians that are parochial ostriches the yanks are are are midway through our insipid invasion florida and they aren even aware yet typical their first attempt foriegn policy adventurism and one even notices canadians they can even make balkanization boring michael robinson uucp ucbvax cogsci robinson internet robinson cogsci berkeley edu
rec.motorcycles	locks and security was yamaha locks this maybe not pet peeve but definitely playmate peeve article uxrp news cis umn edu wfk lynx spa umn edu bill ketzeback writes any lock including the kyptonite utypes are easy break into the person has the proper supplies and motivation minutes and your bike gone would glad explain but dont want contribute any unlawful activities does this make anyone skeptic alarm off offense bill don mean say that you not being straight but wonder how you know about this have you actually every used your secret method break all the different kinds bike locks are you taking someone word for the fact unlikely that someone reading anything here going into successful bike stealing business because they read anything rec motorcycles please tell what you are talking about can even protect against assault discuss methods you don come out with see have heard the ones about the pipes and the liquid nitrogen and the cordless dremel tools and bunch other ones the most plausable method not bike thief really don know for certain just put rod through each wheel and use four guys just lift the bike into truck this works because most people don lock their bikes anything since that method childishly easy figure nice visible chain cable locking the bike something likely make lazy thief the next bike hey finally advantage the weight and high the concours especially since have bike that would hate see ripped off such trival tactic warning lock alone safe deterent against theft the thief doesnt need locksmith lock picker walk away with your property personally think motion alarms combination lock this type the way fact you are that concerned what tactic are you referring don know what you are talking about can very well guard against can for money literally rely combination motion detector alarm with pager when out earshot the bike questionable area insurance and try park obvious visible areas with lots people about see someone just plays with the bike without intention stealing least some eyes are and they get too rambunctious they set off the alarm that for nice bike for ratbike the trick always keep its actual value well below blue book that looks crappy nobody would want steal and even they were stupid enough you would make profit the deal seriously for instance need business trip for week and sadly have leave the bikes sitting they both get shitty looking but useable cover locked and both bikes locked each other and curb bumper the parking lot under the light usually rig the cable locks use aircraft cable that anyone pulls either bike the cable joining them the concours alarm goes off and have friend come buy every day have look and make sure they still there the only thing have ever had stolen was cover and that was over winter storage with the battery out the bike and thus alarm put your own eyelets into the cover for the locks pass through and place them that they have absolutely destroy the cover get off that the best that can think most the locks see people put bikes look well not too mechanically sound like abus since have personally removed master locks from lockers with boot dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com getting tired concours mmmmmmmmmm beating you dave ring ding woops you never learn ama dod cog chicago beth bruiser dixon
rec.motorcycles	back breaker near hit article menudo edu inde rosie edu wrote bdc driver nearly rams back innocent biker understand why you theoretically stop far behind car but can you really actuality avoid such incident suggestions glad hear that the bozo managed stop only been riding for about two years but here are rules for traffic light survival try never stop just over hill behind car have stop such location pull almost completely next the car front the only one car front turn the bike somewhat sideways across the lane increase visibility any oncoming vehicle make sure keep your taillight visible traffic though note bike bright white turning sideways black bike might not beneficial flat road stop with bit room ahead usually about two three bike lengths this will hopefully give room pull forward and the side car approaches you are the last line vehicles watch your mirrors constantly you see vehicle approaching and can see any evidence indicate that she slowing down get out the way now flicker your brake light the last vehicle line will pull and release the brake car approaches from behind noticed the car watching mirrors course vary the speed the flicker hoping make the cager notice that there something the lane ahead him now with all that said the situation where you are first line that feel most defenseless you first line your forward escape route seriously limited you can only move forward the extent that you don enter the intersection leave some room behind the stop line although around here the light activators are always right next the stop line and watch the mirrors think decided that hopping off the bike might the best way out this situation any other ideas for being first line with traffic directly behind you rob rob griffiths erasure shonalaing wildswans judybats rem smiths robg apple com faa certified cloud basher wanna drive the zamboni
rec.motorcycles	good reasons wave each other while bike wave anyone who looks sort like the small town wide open spaces type thing that someone from louisiana mentioned like when arkansas helena kids are especially fun both genders watch cliff the cage usually wave bikers they usually don wave back wife thinks strange but don care jim bessette james bessette att com
rec.motorcycles	boom dog attack article cbnews att com nak cbnews att com neil kirby wrote what worked for was lean towards the dog modulated throttle keep ankle just ahead his teeth after few seconds warm pipe firmly wedged his shoulder turned his face sideways see what was warm and got his mouth nose muzzle burned the pipes one yip and veered away never chase again nice ridin tex use the california dmv recommended technique slow you aproach said dog and wick you pass often contemplated putting the boot said dog muzzle open the throttle but have never tried that figgure the impact would unballance and dump the bike bicycling technique employed was use frame mounted tire pump fend off dog attacks one occasion was attacked pack four dogs once while peddaling steep hill lost right sock but blood complained the local animal control department after complaining the owner the dogs affect about the dogs more dogs more attacks the telephone worked much better than the tire pump eric bong dod fzr vfr
rec.motorcycles	well blow down yuk yuk yuk article apr news columbia edu rob castro writes when how you decide that too windy ride isn that one those self evident things like how you decide that you out gas have never experienced wind severe physically precluded operation motorcycle more matter deciding whether the aggravation more trouble than worth this course depends entirely your own particular circumstances and personal disposition michael robinson uucp ucbvax cogsci robinson internet robinson cogsci berkeley edu
rec.motorcycles	any xxxx mean police officers read this stuff article apr dsd com bgardner pebbles com blaine gardner writes article ltdv ainn earth utexas edu mcguire utexas edu tommy marcus mcguire writes article oav vtserf edu ranck joesbar edu ranck writes and course you will get moderate amount flamage just for expressing opinion matter what the opinion somebody will flame you for hey what the hell you mean that you suck have god given right express opinions carry gun and not wear helmet goddamn everything you stand for stupid give scale while not mentioning hitler koresh weighs your favor you also neglected mention mph tennis balls little girls and countersteering another thing consider centerstands weasel squeezers later chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nec com baby bike disclaimer now why would nec needs name agree with any this anyway was raised pack wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	boom dog attack article bong kfp slac mac slac stanford edu bong slac stanford edu eric bong writes nice ridin tex use the california dmv recommended technique slow you aproach said dog and wick you pass often this must the standard strategy that taught cuz that what they told illinois msf class works well only you don get the satisfaction kicking the shit out some rabid hell beast alan
rec.motorcycles	kawi partial engine disassembly kawasaki has millimetres play the gearchange pedal axle other words can move the axle sideways and down for few millimetres each direction this doesn bother when riding but guess fixing wouldn hurt last summer took the bike shop have the valves adjusted and the mechanic mentioned that should easy job all would have remove the front sprocket cover and replace bushing seal that would find there well upon closer inspection discovered that the gearchange axle doesn even run through the sprocket cover seems that addition removing the cover would have least remove the sprocket and then the cover that behind the sprocket question would removing this small cover from the left side the engine enable lay hands that bushing seal don know the exact term english sorry question has anybody done this disassembly job for this some other purpose does the oil for example stay inside the engine thanks teppo nieminen dod zoo helsinki finland
rec.motorcycles	what with old gasoline help have which stopped riding about years ago upgraded sabre parked the corner parking lot and planned draining the gas spraying oil the tank etc get ready store well after lot procrastination all ended doing was throwing tarp well now have move and want clean the tried starting with someone else battery and had luck first guess that the gas and plan draining and replacing with new gas can only pray that didn trash the carbeurators the question what with this old gas not going run sabre and think that there enough that don want burn campus police don think too kindly about bonfires dumping isn great idea thanks for any ideas george heinz win the question what does this code fair compiling int main for for time for printf
rec.motorcycles	need advice for riding with someone pillion rwert well bob wert writes are there traditional signals for slow down faster hafta pee etc experience when they pound their fists your back means slow down seriously concentrate being very smooth and you will make her experience much more enjoyable even normal upshift causes your passenger bob ease off the throttle before pulling the clutch eliminate this more work but your passenger will appreciate also found that using more rear brake than normal helps keep the bike from diving much during routine stops which makes much easier for the passenger hang you going sport riding have the passenger reach around you and brace themselves against the tank you don have bear both your weights with your arms again your bike will dive less too paul thompson apple computer
rec.motorcycles	why wanted police officers answer posting viking iastate edu dan sorenson writes and copped heh attitude when was stopped speaking guy who recieved verbal warning for mph just have laugh hey dan some potentially cool story stuff here share the details never get break probably most don either please enlighten and enliven and let live vicariously waitin for that story erc grandrapids usa vfr dod
rec.motorcycles	dod confessional article apr bnr mbeaving bnr writes hate pre motorcycles first thought was phase though would get used them didn happen tried gazing and customs thats pretty hard since customs weren introduced until you find pre one hold onto will worth big bucks some day what everytime read sig containing some spoked wheel wonder shudder and feel pity that the poor soul has suffered enough mine has comstar wheels methinks you need your homework better employer has idea what talking about and obviously neither you keith schauer texas instruments plain texas custom dod insane society the sane man must appear insane ama company disavows any knowledge actions
rec.motorcycles	was little hasty article speedy engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes article unisql uucp ray unisql uucp ray shea writes everything louisiana related liquor eating sleeping walking talking church state life death and everything between how dare you make such accusation accusation thought was recommendation mean did grow there oughta know wern busy unloading the beer truck for the week end might just come that and have talk wit you bring the truck and about pounds crawfish and talk ray shea unisql inc unisql ray utexas edu dod team twinkie hawk
rec.motorcycles	any xxxx mean police officers read this stuff article oav vtserf edu ranck joesbar edu ranck writes and course you will get moderate amount flamage just for expressing opinion matter what the opinion somebody will flame you for bill you are full shit that the stupidest thing ever heard obmoto happened miss the discussion deltabox frames there was one because actually needed get some work done last week anybody would care repeat what got said since was the guy who asked and still ignorant could you email thanks ray shea unisql inc unisql ray utexas edu dod team twinkie hawk
rec.motorcycles	any xxxx mean police officers read this stuff article apr dsd com bgardner pebbles com blaine gardner writes article ltdv ainn earth utexas edu mcguire utexas edu tommy marcus mcguire writes hey what the hell you mean that you suck have god given right express opinions carry gun and not wear helmet goddamn everything you stand for stupid give scale while not mentioning hitler koresh weighs your favor you also neglected mention mph tennis balls little girls and countersteering another thing consider that like mexican food lot folks mistake heat for quality subtle references various personal qualities habits ancestry possesions generally earn more points than four letter words the caps lock key and introducing new polysyllabic word strabismic for example likely insure that some small part your flame will become immortal blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd com mon the serious overreaction ought worth couple points not mention the bit condemning everthing the flamee might ever say the non sequitur about guns and helmets just the proper flourish personally the opinion that there are two types good flames the first does trade quality the sense you mention for heat this has certain surprise value and done correctly which contend was done above reasonably entertaining while true that the flame posted does not mention anyone habitual velocity friends dinner entertainment says what needs with the appropriate flair and short the weakness this type flame actually that can easily taken too far which point becomes trite and boring witness the infante thread recently the other type flame which you seem glorifying above has few weaknesses well the first place can get verbose and tedious the extreme particularly the reader does not already strongly identify with one side the other the second discussing someone personal qualities habits and forth can quickly become libelous that slanderous can never remember the difference this leads proliferation lawyers which widely regarded bad thing finally introducing polysyllabic words problematic can haul big dic around bike and would bad form use word which actually turned out have meaning especially one which ran counter use and flamage general summary blaine your score for that flame incorrect while may the wunder flame the weaknesses you point out are not necessarily weaknesses and your suggested corrections are not always useful nor applicable you also probably couldn outrun tennis ball with flatulent dog stapled your posterior and bet you and your motorcycle lean the outside while turning the same goes for anyone who looks like you too tommy mcguire mcguire utexas edu mcguire austin ibm com will append appropriate disclaimer outgoing public information identifying personal and independent ibm
rec.motorcycles	are other riders welcome join group when riding group generally speaking most people mind when another rider tags along had the distinct feeling may not have been welcome when tagged along with group last weekend jon faults are like car headlights those others seem more glaring than our own
rec.motorcycles	dogs article apr acs ucalgary parr acs ucalgary charles parr writes article sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes article adobe com cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes article apr acs ucalgary parr acs ucalgary charles parr writes sheesh even trained attack dog match for human have all the advantages agree with this too for chihuahua the police and the military don train dobermans and shephards and use them weapons because they are easy for the average joe defeat barehanded you may have opposing thumbs but the dog has teeth effective some yours are named for him has vision better hearing and better smell than you and most likely faster reflexes you motorcycle paws roll and blow him off doesn even have net access bull pucky they use dogs because many people are scared shitless them and because the nose and the vision and hearing without their cop partner attendance the dog much meat the hands any human with bad attitude and ittle training violent force horse puckey without their cop partner attendance they are less likely controllable without the use force which would kill the dog those teeth aren very much good with arm shoved into the back the animals throat and held there and the neck not you disabled the dog mouth and given use your arm how bout them front and read paws and the fact that plug that mouth you given the dog the advantage balance espcially strong neither are the leg joints which can easily snapped the skull easily crushed even the largest dogs have you ever tried snap leg crush the skull dog without use hardened instruments such baseball bat without the use both arms and full cooperation the beastie involved not that easy but wait you got your arm shoved the dogs mouth you lose your advice correct but dog still match for trained human fight now you qualify you earlier statement saying trained human sheesh even trained attack dog match for human have all the advantages most people here have not been trained deal with dog that wants maul you get clue regards charles within the span the last few weeks have heard elements separate threads which that they have been conjoined time struck together form new chord within hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person steve mansfield was told theres miracle for each day that try was smm uunet net told there new love that born for each one that has died suzuki was told there one call when feel alone dod and afraid was told you dream the next world you find yourself swimming lake fire dream theater metropolis part the miracle and the sleeper
rec.motorcycles	need advice for riding with someone pillion article mellon apr pepper ncd com mellon ncd com ted lemon writes long ride with girlfriend nancy would notice her drifting off every often swore off taking passengers over ten years ago but recall sturgis getting some strange looks because passenger was reading book she was engrossed that she didn even notice when hit roadkill make the hit the day with the riders behind john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	first bike honda ascot article csi compuserve com nbetz csi compuserve com nathan betz writes folks going buying first bike and considering honda ascot with less than miles does this sound like reasonable choice there anything special need know thanks nathan nice litle bike loved riding brother law dod technician speed not student stolen taglines god real unless declared integer came saw deleted all your files black holes are where god dividing zero the world will end minutes please log out earth full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	krypto cables was cobra locks follow had bad experience krypto lock too last year bought krypto cable long something like that that all standards seemed like decent piece until used anyway before ever used for security purposes used for entertainment minds out the gutter please which say that sat fiddling while watching the night got after three minutes mindless fiddling course was mindless remember was watching the entire tumbler mechanism came out the key not unlike that old georgie porgie nursery rhyme this left very empty cylinder and very non secure read swingin the breeze cable lock kinda makes wonder about any flat key style lock one yank slide hammer and viola making insurance claim anyone else have similar experience the kryptos not bike theft erc
rec.motorcycles	paint jobs the lisa alex com lisa rowlands writes can anyone recommend good place for reasonably priced bike paint jobs preferably but not essentially the london area thanks lisa rowlands try dream machine seen few examples their work and looks pretty good they the midlands though
rec.motorcycles	cager antics the football field there was article one the dailies this week about soccer goalkeeper who had carried off the field after collision with ford sierra cage seems the cage driver wanted turn around but needed drive onto the pitch this waited till the ball and most the players were the other end unfortunately soon started his manouvre someone booted the ball back down the pitch the goalkeeper ran backwards towards his goal straight into the cage
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies article bethdc netcom com bethd netcom com beth dixon writes beth the one true beth dixon bethd netcom com yamaha excitable girl dod yamaha spike the garage rat fssnoc ducati ama ducati monza restoration project kqspt can keep handle anything just this side deranged top now just wait one cotton picking minute here dod rule section paragraph clearly indicates that multiple people can lay claim bike obvious ploy artificially increase the size their stable the question the day spike owned lady true class and breeding definition any woman who rides tom the harely head also note that you lay claim connie sport like said obviously lady discriminating taste bored minds wanta know bradw newbridge com sig plan clue dod
rec.motorcycles	need advice for riding with someone pillion don find out she has pee scaring out her don armorall the seat just before her first ride even you think you will need its urine proofing qualities henry prange biker renal physiologist physiology sch med blgtn dod bmwmoa gsi ride conv cage explorer cage the four tenets all major religions right you are wrong hence you deserve punished
rec.motorcycles	what squid was riceburner respect article apr locus com dana lando locus com dana myers writes article qqxp cbmvax cbm commodore com hartzler cbmvax cbm commodore com jerry hartzler cats writes article apr icomsim com mmanning icomsim com michael manning writes duck squids don wave return waves ever even each excuse for being ignoramus but what are these squids are everybody but and you chris behanna especially squid squid the guy saw back december cool degree morning way work was wearing knee length pants light jacket gloves though was going considerably slower than dod nominal poser squid was the guy saw yesterday way home similar attire above sans jacket april texas know but riding down the freeway left hand his side kinda robinhoodlike with his body turned slightly left brings whole new meaning the term poser
rec.motorcycles	need advice for riding with someone pillion few random thoughts riding with passenger there substitute for bike with sufficient power having taken passengers very occasionally the small etc bikes used ride the was hard now riding and that great even moving from freinds gsx was riding recently this may due part the fact that neither nor regular passengers are particularly slimline always tell passengers stay line with the bike corners that makes their movements predictable regular passengers both tend hold either the rack nothing all don really like having passenger hold onto except for short periods again that may biased the fact that had couple new passengers friend recently for her first time bike who hold real tight making any kind maneuvering difficult also discovered that longer trips prefer passenger who moves and shifts their weight bit recently took work collegue meeting about hour ride and sat totally still the whole way which left also sitting very still and getting sore back have code system for turns stop and for need shift position chris seabrook fujitsu open systems solutions inc phone hollis street emeryville usa fax dod per saltire gules and sun counterchanged
rec.motorcycles	hawk new seat review unable stand the pain anymore wife bought the corbin gunfighter and lady with passenger backrest for hawk came with instructions but came weeks earlier than they said would installation would have been very easy but the seat fastening hardware was apparently always the wrong sides with the stock seat never was easy put once figured that out the new seat went the first try the passenger backrest though does not fit thought might the supplied screw set the backrest angle does not fit and have not yet found suitable hard sae grade perhaps bolt that fits there soft bolt there now just don lean back the driver section the seat bit wider seems comfortable enough but then again put about miles the stock seat without thought the passenger section has about times the volume foam that the stock seat has and from short test seems much more comfortable the backrest helps bit but not has enough time really test the backrest also comes with small pocket its now more difficult swing leg over the taller seat the three notch ride soon dixville pinkham smugglers give more complete report but general seems like improvement frank evan perdicaro xyvision color systems legalize guns drugs and cash today edgewater drive inhouse frank marvin wakefield outhouse frank contex com
rec.motorcycles	maxima chain wax article apr acs ucalgary parr acs ucalgary charles parr writes bought tried truly the miracle spooge chain lubed wheel clean after try the vfr but goddamn competition accessories hasn mailed order yet hell only been two weeks and was ordering some pretty bizzare stuff like clear face sheild and can chain wax bastards dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington bedford kotnml kotb the road shepherd and shall not stop vfr sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited
rec.motorcycles	good reasons wave each other article arturo infmx arturo informix com arturo vega writes has anyone else ever caught themselves waving oncoming motorcycle riders while car caught myself doing while bicycle does that count dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington bedford kotnml kotb the road shepherd and shall not stop vfr sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited
rec.motorcycles	dogs charles parr parr acs ucalgary wrote bull pucky they use dogs because many people are scared shitless them and because the nose and the vision and hearing without their cop partner attendance the dog much meat the hands any human with bad attitude and ittle training violent force one the things that police dogs are used for take the bullet instead the human police officer charles said many people are scared dogs and will panic when one goes attack they will then turn their weapon the dog and this allows the police officer take control your advice correct but dog still match for trained human fight single person single dog face face confrontation should really contest the dog match for human willing fight multiple dogs different story bill ranck bill ranck edu computing center virginia polytchnic inst state univ blacksburg
rec.motorcycles	dod pins not there kids and kidlets your pal the kotpm keeper the pin money got good new and bad news good news got laid the pins will coming use the computer software phrase real soon now bad news right after placed our order the company upped its minimum order for manufacturing got under the wire with order pins but result the low number pins were relegated the get between other runs bin result seems that may another weeks until your beloved geeky guiding you along the blacktop and thought madonnas the dashboard were foolish hmmm now that were madonna sitting dashboard that could dangerous hell tough please continue patient soon they arrive post the grand announcement and rush our messiah his way directly your abode the meantime you need revised versions the holy word geeky please send cash money order cod ranch apocalyp ashram geeky cyberspace place off msf class hope not too boring wife made with her michael menard
rec.motorcycles	story lynn pacesetter com lynn hall writes lynn pacesetter com lynn hall writes allowed yes there god open containers the street was the signs the bars yeah right the cops hand for the couple thousand bikers block main street were not citing anyone the street was filled with empty cans least feet deep the gutter the crowd was raisin hell tittie shows everywhere can you say party and still wonder why they stereotype erc whacha mean ifin they whom ever they are want stereotype one that likes drink beer and watch lovely ladies display their beautiful bodies like that stereotype you were refering stereotype infer negative you noticed didn rape pillage burn down the town also left mucho bucks money with the town thinks the town likes least they said lynn hall nos bros they bein themfolk who tend compose fair piece the population bein the ones that regard bikers loud irresponsible irreverent reprobate rabble sure you didn rape and pillage relief know that you were such gentlemen but because you were not completely out hand you justify your lesser indescretions some pretty distorted thinking should say sorry just noticed that you left mucho bucks money nevermind criticism was out line forgot that when one leaves mucho bucks money their behavior permissable perhaps even justified keep mind that themfolks are the ones that could give when biker gets killed when their elected officials institute further draconian legislation helmet laws gun controls etc the ones that don respect our rights the roads because not respect theirs all the rest the time need continue continue wear your stigma badge but the next time you are whining about them and the effect their values yours remember that was probably the behavior self righteous wusses like myself that kept them bay for this long enjoy erc dod
rec.motorcycles	bmw heated grips mark bergman bergman panix com wrote those you who have the bmw heated handgrips what are they like during the summer yes you wiseguy mean while they are off are they comfortable they transmit lot vibration how they compare the stock grips foam grips they really make difference during the winter just got and had the heated grips installed far can tell the grips look and feel the same the standard grips they are not soft last weekend did mile round trip and got point where was the and raining those heated grips were great only had the bike month and the heated grips are already one favorite features the bike bill ranck bill ranck edu computing center virginia polytchnic inst state univ blacksburg
rec.motorcycles	good reasons wave each other arturo informix com arturo vega wrote maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes keeps you the habit watching really carefully for bikes when you cage this good thing has anyone else ever caught themselves waving oncoming motorcycle riders while car sure has caused wife conclude that totally insane not just partially usually just lift the left hand off the wheel and wave thru the windshield damn near the same motion the bike tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet like herd performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult redirect awe inspiring entertaining and source mind boggling amounts excrement when you least expect gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	tracing license plates bdi cagers jeq lachman com jonathan quist wrote article qmgg sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes traffic citation accusation having committed crime that why they have through the motions having trial you want one you are still innocent until proven guilty cops are not the only ones who can accuse people committing crimes anyone who witnesses crime can the highway patrol and explain the situation give them description the car and the license number and tell them the specific violation the law which you witnessed and wish prosecute search the vehicle code and have the section number handy fill out the ticket and sign will through the same system any ticket cop writes goes through contested you will have appear court prosecute your word will not carry the same weight cop and indeed the advice got from police officer when had close call was that without additional impartial witnesses would word the other driver and that was decide whether the time and inconvenience was worth the time and inconvenience the other driver and also whether any positive effect would result beyond making feel better worth did this once bdi ladycager town car passed the right two lane road memorized her license plate this the days before carried pen and paper tankbag and went the local police station cops filled out the ticket signed she paid tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet like herd performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult redirect awe inspiring entertaining and source mind boggling amounts excrement when you least expect gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	owners tankbag suggestions wanted bgardner pebbles com blaine gardner writes article apr ncsu edu martenm chess ncsu edu mar marten writes looking for new tank bag now and wondered you follow owners could make some suggestions what has and has not worked for you there already file this apologize for asking and will gladly accept any flames that are blown way with the large flat gas tank imagine that almost anything would work personally quite happy with eclipse standard tank bag think the only thing watch for the number attachment straps most come with and some with have bagman strap tankbag and because the rear the tank narrow the fit not optimal mark castle rock
rec.motorcycles	dogs howland noc arc nasa gov curt howland writes article mrc ikkoku kan panda com mrc ikkoku kan panda com mark crispin writes biker and dog lover wonder bikers have such horrid reputation dog thrust
rec.motorcycles	any xxxx mean police officers read this stuff jrlaf sgi msd lmsc lockheed com laferriere wrote was just wondering there were any law officers that read this have several questions would like ask pertaining motorcycles and cops and please don say get vehicle code your local station obvious things like that questions would not found those places nor answered face face with real live the flesh cop your brother had friend who had cousin whos father was cop etc don bother writing thanks would you mind telling what state municipality you live there are different laws different places you know tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet like herd performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult redirect awe inspiring entertaining and source mind boggling amounts excrement when you least expect gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	hawk new seat review too put corbin seat hawk got the solo seat which could carry passenger for short distance and better than the stock seat longer does voice squeak after the ride work rich sturges nswc carderock division speak for one else and listen the same
rec.motorcycles	wanted advice for new cylist article apr hydro jlevine hydro jody levine writes the question have how dangerous riding exactly dangerous looks you hard see and have little protection keeping out trouble means knowing your limits keeping your machine good shape and being able predict and make for every stupid move that drivers make out there deal with because fun but staying alive takes conscious effort bike like jody levine dod got you can you jody levine hydro ride toronto ontario canada thanks jody can say ever seen summed succinctly before might only add two things stupid road design poor least and deal with for the fun and brotherhood share with others who take their lives their hads feel the wind their hair imho binger binger binger hsh com there really such thing welcome the attitude express corporate opinion maybe now get out boss will let express
rec.motorcycles	dogs article apr acs ucalgary parr acs ucalgary charles parr writes newsgroups rec motorcycles path usenet ins cwru edu lerc nasa gov lerc nasa gov news uakron edu malgudi oar net zaphod mps ohio state edu sol ctr columbia edu destroyer ubc unixg ubc kakwa ucs ualberta acs ucalgary parr from parr acs ucalgary charles parr subject dogs message apr acs ucalgary date tue apr gmt references mrc ikkoku kan panda com pntm cbnewsj att com nntp posting host acs acs ucalgary organization the university calgary alberta lines article pntm cbnewsj att com car cbnewsj att com charles rogers writes what dog weighs maybe max you can handle you have presume thumbs grapple with and tear head off sheesh even trained attack dog match for human have all the advantages this was recent discussion rec martial arts humans definitely don have all the advantages dogs are deceptively strong and often bred for fighting one sort another dod
rec.motorcycles	newbie yes matt dear newbie best advice read here foe few days this your best source info kinda makes glad that discovered well after got into riding could have possibly sounded like that otherwise eesh btw matt despite the insults you are destined face great move taking the msf course will save your butt good luck erc dod
rec.motorcycles	krypto cables was cobra locks not sure what the other guy can track down his post for his name was talking about when made the claim that cobralinks are not adjustable they are there space between each link where the teeth the locking head notch thus each link possible locking point also and this not applicable hard core thieves who cart around liquid nitrogen and oxy acetylene torches the cobralinks look lot more effective than kryptonite cable locks imho and think the initial appearance effect more relevant bored joyriders nominally adept cracking unsecured bike deterrence long the lock nominally functional finally notice that when ride with leathers harness boots and the cobralinks slung across like bandolier btw crashed the rain dressed like this and the lock didn pulverize any vertebrae cagers give much wider berth don hassle and tend avoid any potentially inflammatory action stoplights love cobralinks almost much love pre honda dinosaur think have pavlovian drool reflex put the lock body and can feel the bike already shaking away first post what did wrong sang dod any other owners out there please mail got questions about the weird handling bike the opinions expressed are not necessarily those the university north carolina chapel hill the campus office for information technology the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu
rec.motorcycles	riceburner respect article apr microsoft com chrispi microsoft com chris pirih writes generic bike riders actually seem raise the hand entirely off the handlebar and wave around easy tell when they waving and doders are easily recognized their own special wave pay attention and tell you how hold your left hand out front you fingers straight but apart like vase you may also use your right hand you have throttle lock are stopped bring your fingertips and thumb together touch and open back the starting position while you are doing this move your hand slowly the left gracefully and with waving motion you are now imitating squid propelling itself about underwater probably search food drink squids the appropriate sexual orientation other squids riding with lissa shoun netcom com
rec.motorcycles	need advice for riding with someone pillion because riding passenger doesn really depend the type bike the things you want passenger not the same ergo asking advice reasoned doesn have much practice period you say does fine still wouldn take the uninitiated road that all switch backs and reverse center uncrowned roadway not mention the bdcs and squids who will also that particular road asked for advice and even though wasn what meant still consider some the best read lee
rec.motorcycles	well blow down yuk yuk yuk ivan reid the apr pst wibbled article apr news columbia edu rob castro writes when how you decide that too windy ride when even the seagulls are walking ivan reid paul scherrer institute ivan cvax psi gsx you porsche pass dod when you can make headway into the wind when you hear dull booming noise after going down hill with the wind behind you and you wfo very careful during the above all the controls will have the opposite effect nick the mach biker dod concise oxford lud nick pettefar contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated bnr npet bnr bmw kay maidenhead the united kingdom pres pbwasoh
rec.motorcycles	how act front traffic jerks apr gillian runcie writes being mere female have often found can really take the big offensive line with asshole car drivers found more subtle and nastly ooops mean nasty way get back them somebody cuts you just wait till they have pulled out past you and then gently lean over and bend their aerial every time have done that has eventually snapped off near the base which tends undetected for while and bummer replace gillian dear gillian that such wickedly cool idea why didn think however here canada the aerials antenna are usually near the driver passenger areas and would surely seen but give try anyway thanks for the first truely useable piece information have heard long time and you are means mere female this way getting back takes real guts mike maser dod squid rating pinetree sidney can hopalonga twinfart yuka yuka excess wish list tridump mucho guzler burley home thumpison bimotamoeba work mmaser sirius uvic joke the month what did the gay say the university victoria indian chief news rec motorcycles answer can bum couple bucks
rec.motorcycles	dogs car cbnewsj att com charles rogers writes what dog weighs maybe max you can handle you have presume thumbs grapple with and tear head off sheesh even trained attack dog match for human have all the advantages this was recent discussion rec martial arts humans definitely don have all the advantages dogs are deceptively strong and often bred for fighting one sort another dod being related former trainers have come know that humans have all the advantages well least one anyway little known fact that dog will involuntarily regurgitate and release object that too large swallow was told that were ever attacked dog should ball hand fist and force down the dog throat the dog would naturally gag and release and become momentarily disoriented this commonly happens humans when doctor and have our throats examined proof positive the time during the dog disorientation the next move would wrap arm about the dog throat choke hold manner and constrict with all your might until the dog lapses into unconsciousness from lack oxygen and halting blood flow finally run like the wind get away from the local area should the dog get again and really pissed ooooooopsssss for second there thought was rec beatthelivingcrapoutofadog and not rec motorcycles till next time mike maser dod squid rating pinetree sidney can hopalonga twinfart yuka yuka excess wish list tridump mucho guzler burley home thumpison bimotamoeba work mmaser sirius uvic joke the month what did the gay say the university victoria indian chief news rec motorcycles answer can bum couple bucks
rec.motorcycles	where put your helmet response jerry lotto post about not putting your helmet your mirror else risk damaging the padding from the inside one the major causes mirror breakage impact with the pavement laws mandating that all mirrors protected helmets might order but seriously one place put helmet preferably clean footpeg hanging from the chin guard away from any hot pipes dod
rec.motorcycles	paint jobs the article mjs zen sys uea mjs sys uea writes lisa alex com lisa rowlands writes can anyone recommend good place for reasonably priced bike paint jobs preferably but not essentially the london area thanks lisa rowlands try dream machine seen few examples their work and looks pretty good they the midlands though can you say expensive tony kidson pgp key request voice morgan towers the cat has had move now mail order morgan road had take the top tony morgan demon bromley off the machine tny cix compulink england honda dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	how buy first bike etc article inform dev inform michael seales writes article apr galaxy gov bclarke galaxy gov writes there have been lot posts lately about wanna buy first bike gsxr cbr fzr good bike learn etc sure they are here can buy gsxr cbr fzr the prob that you wrong newbie here just got off the phone with salesman that showed newbieness remember what said correctly gsxr such thing cbr its fzr such thing most sport bikes don have versions
rec.motorcycles	volvo attack was privelged enough experience first volvo attack this weekend was last line traffic that was about vehicles long riding down groton the side the road sitting off the shoulder was the killer volvo question brake lights turn signal nothing were doing about mph and was following the cage front about sec back well said cage passes the volvo the brain dead idiot behind the wheel decides that she doesn need wait for pass also and turns out perpendicular across both lanes traffic that she can turn around get the brakes effort not bone and the horn effort wake the bdi she finishes the turn she looks with completely blank uncomprehending stare where can get rocket launchers for the vfr dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington bedford kotnml kotb the road shepherd and shall not stop vfr sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited
rec.motorcycles	countersteering sans hands article clarke bdrc com clarke bdrc com richard clarke writes how steer when hands aren the bars open budweiser left hand camel cigarette the right feet allowed lean and the bike turns countersteering countersteering like benchracing only with taller seat your feet aren the floor rick now while wouldn recommend doing this while moving maybe mike beaverton can complain you awhile you might not want countersteer you just sitting the driveway sounds rick falling off bike muttering damn coulda sworn that how they told the msf course andy infante you can listen what everybody says but the fact remains bmw that you got get out there and the thing yourself dod joan sutherland opinions dammit have nothing with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	bike for sale usa article apr news columbia edu scs cunixb columbia edu sebastian sears writes article apr zorro tyngsboro zorro tyngsboro jeff derienzo writes recently become father twins don think can afford keep bikes and babies both babies are staying the harleys going xlhd hey was wife bike well that was pretty uncalled for smile our harley manhood feeling challenged jeff derienzo you sell your bike and let her ride around while you have stay home with the kids geez that tough choice andy infante you can listen what everybody says but the fact remains bmw that you got get out there and the thing yourself dod joan sutherland opinions dammit have nothing with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	two beemer questions hello folks very happy with new range miles gallons that mpg surprisingly the bike real cruiser was expecting something rough she sweet backroad honey and can pretty much anyplace take mountain bike far shaft effect more torque effect from the crankshaft opinion rev sitting still when the driveshaft not moving and the bike twists bit maybe don ride her fast enough get shaft effect but opinion little buffeting wind far greater consequence okay here are questions any recommendations for home made fairing like keep the wind off chest and perhaps helmet for comfort highway speeds mph yet don want screw the stability block vision too much for trail riding anybody have luck with two piece detachible fairings like make myself out plexiglas run two lights the standard headlamp plus sidelamp mounted the crash bar the illumination excellent that way with full beam coming out from the level the motor left side the lamp beam linear that you get bright streak illumination from left right and really picks the periphery deer lurking etc combined with the headlamp high you can see like day but heard that bmw alternators don crank out too much need shut down the sidelamp when puttering around the dirt low rpm this embarassing having trouble starting the bike first thing the morning invariably flood the carbs then and read section the paper and then she starts right this zen thing the hayne manual says not under any circumstances use gasoline with alcohol additives yeah right what you folks due keep the engine and carbs from being eaten ethanol and methanol any particular brands gas that are best additives thanks dod asphaug hindmost lpl arizona edu kawi zephyr erik asphaug bmw
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies bradw newbridge com brad warkentin writes article bethdc netcom com bethd netcom com beth dixon writes beth the one true beth dixon bethd netcom com yamaha excitable girl dod yamaha spike the garage rat fssnoc ducati ama ducati monza restoration project kqspt can keep handle anything just this side deranged top now just wait one cotton picking minute here dod rule section paragraph clearly indicates that multiple people can lay claim bike obvious ploy artificially increase the size their stable silly boy you read the rest that jibberish back and read rule the question the day spike owned lady true class and breeding definition any woman who rides tom the harely head for the record spike jointly owned the registration says uhhh what does the title say beth beth brought the attention been half heartedly lusting after for years had successfully avioded buying rationalizing that didn need spend the then beth piped with pay for half was beaten also note that you lay claim connie sport like said obviously lady discriminating taste watch buddy both those are fine rides beth loves riding pillion the connie true the sport isn her cup tea she can get off the side stand but she agrees that very fine ride bored minds wanta know bradw newbridge com sig plan clue dod buy that even loan you quarter buy clue concours sophisticated lady tom dietrich sportster sport for sale dod spike the garage rat ama queued for fssnoc two jousts and gather big fun kspt bell cool rule but sometimes mail txd able mkt com com lewis disclaimer com takes responsibility for opinions preceding this
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies article apr vax cit cornell edu xlyx vax cit cornell edu writes possible wheelie motorcycle with shaft drive mike terry virago yep did one yesterday shaftie vision should mention that had pillon that helped rotate the bike over the wheelie was the result necessarily agressive acceleration manouver through intersection damn san antonio cagers tend really bad drivers however have done one myself just takes lot pre clutch dump rev action just passing comment johnny ennex eng utsa edu
rec.motorcycles	boom dog attack article bong kfp slac mac slac stanford edu bong slac stanford edu eric bong writes article cbnews att com nak cbnews att com neil kirby wrote what worked for was lean towards the dog modulated throttle keep ankle just ahead his teeth after few seconds warm pipe firmly wedged his shoulder turned his face sideways see what was warm and got his mouth nose muzzle burned the pipes bicycling technique employed was use frame mounted tire pump fend off dog attacks one brothers had spent lot time practicing bizzare tricks his megabuck micromass bike said once repelled dog attack picking the rear the bike and smacking the dog the side the head with the rear wheel the dog had idea what hit him and fled quite rapidly then again could jump garbage cans without ramp don think care try this one motorcycle the telephone worked much better than the tire pump that almost unfair never seen dog that could use phone blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd com
rec.motorcycles	dogs apr egreen east sun com green pixel cruncher writes article adobe com cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes writes sheesh even trained attack dog match for human have all the advantages agree with this too for chihuahua the police and the military don train dobermans and shephards and use them weapons because they are easy for the average joe defeat barehanded you may have opposing thumbs but the dog has teeth effective some yours are named for him has vision better hearing and better smell than you and most likely faster reflexes you motorcycle paws roll and blow him off doesn even have net access green mon all things have their weak areas what idiot response dogs have more rods cones not sure which than humans and this allows their eyes collect more light lower light conditions consequently their colour vision almost non existant mean dogs had built infra red vision the armed forces would strapping them missiles instead paying quarter million for guidance capabilities dog has net access mike maser dod squid rating pinetree sidney can hopalonga twinfart yuka yuka excess wish list tridump mucho guzler burley home thumpison bimotamoeba work mmaser sirius uvic joke the month what did the gay say the university victoria indian chief news rec motorcycles answer can bum couple bucks
rec.motorcycles	good reasons wave each other article mdennie beryllium mdennie xerox com matt dennie writes apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes ever notice little kid wave more than other bikers the reactions little boys seems the most enthusiastic wave and also good see always wave when see kid that has least noticed bike figure helps the future the sport don forget little girls not quite year old daughter now excitedly points and says motorcycle every time she sees one past done work course helps that one her books shows sir topham hatt chaffeured side car rig have admit that usually try without the parental figure noticing afraid that the kid will get yelled for associatign with anti societal types like can you think better way convince the kid that someday ride one those things genetic thing with little boys what even three and four year old boys seem magnetically attracted motorcycles virtaully any sort often the dismay thier mothers genetic thing with little humans just don let them touch hot pipes jonathan quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf gleep naperville there nothing quite like the pitter patter little feet followed the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	any xxxx mean police officers read this stuff article ltgnt innfpq earth utexas edu mcguire utexas edu tommy marcus mcguire writes article apr dsd com bgardner pebbles com blaine gardner writes article ltdv ainn earth utexas edu mcguire utexas edu tommy marcus mcguire writes hey what the hell you mean that you suck have god given right express opinions carry gun and not wear helmet goddamn everything you stand for stupid give scale analysis and hints deleted mon the serious overreaction ought worth couple points not mention the bit condemning everthing the flamee might ever say the non sequitur about guns and helmets just the proper flourish nope flames should interesting around here guns helmets are the wallpaper personally the opinion that there are two types good flames the first does trade quality the sense you mention for heat this has certain surprise value and done correctly which contend was done above reasonably entertaining not everyone rec motoland easily amused blaine elder has seen the superflamers their peaks depths you prefer with that sort incendiary backdrop awarding your faltering bic was the purest act charity while true that the flame posted does not mention anyone habitual velocity friends dinner entertainment says what needs with the appropriate flair and short the weakness this type flame actually that can easily taken too far which point becomes trite and boring unless course your audience has only seen several thousand similarly uninspiring attempts this arena that case the trite boring threshold tends drift away from where you first set yours will eventually not the other type flame which you seem glorifying above blah blah blah summary blaine your score for that flame incorrect while may the wunder flame the weaknesses you point out are not necessarily weaknesses and your suggested corrections are not always useful nor applicable until you can yank the flame out blaine internet port before can close you are position lecture him grasshopper you also probably couldn outrun tennis ball with flatulent dog stapled your posterior and bet you and your motorcycle lean the outside while turning the same goes for anyone who looks like you too please yawn you slipping further down the scale with each successive attempt embarrassing watch say you not from waco are you chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	kinder gentler bmw mailing list joe rider cactus org joe senner writes know there already bmw mailing list but since bike only list and limited the bikes well believe the list chartered geared toward riders emphasizing the off road bikes but there are numerous people the list with other bmw twins well well the usual contingent aspirants most all boxer talk welcome the main list has about subscribers there also digest version which has about run about messges day mostly technical with little chatter and flames subscriptions can had via mail the text message send the command subscribe bmw request halfdome for the main list and bmw digest request haldfome for the digest version your from address will used determine where you will receive the mail would shame split boxer riders between different lists unless course the existing list failed meet the readers needs bob pasker rbp netcom com
rec.motorcycles	der whassa deltabox news dtc com jjb dtc com jim brewer writes article kxal izc ccu umanitoba klinger ccu umanitoba jorg klinger writes beleive called the dentabox frame nothing some putty and paint won fix this from someone riding gsxr gutsy was referring their propensity dent during spill prespill they are course work art jorg klinger gsxr you only new who arch eng services lost horizons think umanitoba man the embalmer anonymous squidonk
rec.motorcycles	ride frank marvin contex com frank perdicaro writes well was wrong sat the both feet down all could think was big then put one foot heavy came mind very quickly with cindy the back was she the back hard tell with seat three times large hawk seat the bike seemed nearly out control just idling the side the road heavy the mid dry that the one major drawback the rpm second gear all the weight seemed dissappear even can you say tourque monster the test drive sold the bike lot bite anywhere above any gear bike with miles the odometer slippery new tires and pads that did you trythe abs tcs version cindy has difficulty with speed gear gear purring along top gear this thing has less low rpm grunt that hawk lane changes were new experience big heft required move this thing responds well though wallowing complaint behind the fairing was fairly quiet but the helmet buffeting was after market fairing windshield for raises the bubble inches above most heads but hurts the looks the bike non trivial top gear car passing mph was nearly effortless smooth smooth smooth not sure what the sound reminds but pleasant this the essence the bike move the throttle and itr accelerates any gear anywhere anytime frequently find myself the dod min during casual passing maneuver the jump caused less than impressed with the brakes its down hill reversing camber twice reversing radius decreasing radius turn real squeeze needed the front binder this function the weight you have aggresive with the brake squeze actually tested cycle world and expert rider the stopped faster then the comparable models from bmw and yamaha even with the extra weight and gas the section were was tight but too urban the works this section but shows its weight went the clam shack you must countersteer the for every turn and movement short the classic pothole wiggle just forget ever leaning into turn again must countersteered into every turn and then responds nicely about half way through the onramp yanked cindy wrist our singal for hold tight head check left time find redline second gear gives good shove third too fourth sees dod speed with short shift into top the way saw cops and very light traffic did not cross into dod zone because the bike was too new well now had miles was tried some high effort lane changes some wide sweeping turns time wick went until the buffeting was threating pull off the seat and stayed there when was comfortable with the wind and the steering looked down find indicated mph not bad for touring faster then ever gone hate buy this bike after your short break period thread the through the cars the edge the concrete pad out front heavy took way too much effort for cindy and put the thing the center stand sure that used the side stand the would have been its side within minute not true the side stand well designed for the weight and will hold the bike nicely dirt able easily get the bike the center stand just step down the stand instead pulling the bike demo opinion heavy put diet smooth comfortable hardly notices the dod speed buy for about less than list just like too much for the bike keep looking the left overs available are going for love mine and haven found better value then the for remember you get years unlimited mileage warranty
rec.motorcycles	any xxxx mean police officers read this stuff article athena uga edu ahatcher athena uga edu allan hatcher writes well here goes after lurking for long time announce myself yes the enemy the enemy that also happens ride arrest red vfr have feeling that you are not the enemy there are without doubt dickhead cops but there are least many dickhead bikers even here you know who you are will certainly give you the same benefit the doubt any other biker here welcome think can speak for the entire dod this hey guys free ride georgia dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com getting tired concours mmmmmmmmmm beating you dave ring ding woops you never learn ama dod cog chicago beth bruiser dixon
rec.motorcycles	countersteering sans hands article apr cornell edu karr cornell edu david karr writes article gbnvgw quantum qnx com dagibbs quantum qnx com david gibbs writes yes even when steering hands you something quite similar countersteering basically turn left you quick wiggle the bike the right first causing counteracting lean occur the left this sounds suspiciously like black magic quick wiggle the right you mean that the handlebars turn toward the right before turning the left what the input the steering mechanism that makes this happen the absence the old shove shove well many bored bike tourer can tell you the way steer sans hans push your body off the side you want lean say you want turn left you push your body off the left this you have push against something and the only thing push against the ground through the bike well the apple guy wozniak was that churchill says that the ground will push you right back you pushed yourself off the left pushing the ground the right and the ground pushed back toward the left well that push both wheels the rear wheel doesn care unless you have serious bearing problems except course the spagthorpe dragonfly which had the revolutionary countersteering contra shaft drive rear end but the front wheel has trail the ground pushes the front wheel toward the left the contact patch the trail will cause the wheel turn the right hey there are hands counter steering dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com getting tired concours mmmmmmmmmm beating you dave ring ding woops you never learn ama dod cog chicago beth bruiser dixon
rec.motorcycles	kinder gentler bmw mailing list sorry had take out motorcycles because news server rejected hesh bob pasker rbp netcom com wrote would shame split boxer riders between different lists unless course the existing list failed meet the readers needs you presumed you needed split out list implication your split plain bmw list wouldn meet the riders needs for the sake not forcing the split issue how about changing the charter and renaming your list from bmw just bmw would that make everybody happy think you get better participation this way and joe wouldn have burden his hesh
rec.motorcycles	squids and dealers kevin stell kstell cbnewsl att com wrote squids felt embarassed this point motorcyclist felt the eyes those cages witnessing this display then glancing over the dealers lot and damning all those two wheels needless say friend felt little uncomfortable and left did you express your embarrassment the owner don blame you for being embarrassed but would have let feeling known that the behaviour their sales staff and apparent enjoyment such behaviour just cost them sale and all further sales will now turn off frustration and ride peacefully clear anger only hope that the cop who following home has open mind and doesn associate with them sound good enjoy btw can afford new bike who can merf
rec.motorcycles	death stroke why did die zebee johnstone zebee wattle itd adelaide edu wrote now for those who have read this far why did rev idle like that water the fuel acceptable reaason were they having sound like the pilot circuit was say lean clogged don think water would cause problem like this but apparently the oil pump doing its job and there was plenty oil why did seize see above were you chance coasting when stuck two stroke you only have substantial lubrication when you are giving the bike gas was lean the pilot that why stuck btw the motor had been rebuilt just before left adelaide had done about miles when blew was rebuilt because had been seized some time before got and looked like that seizure had happened low mileage because there were still hone marks the bore the rebuild did consisted total tear down new piston rings small end bearing and new gearbox bearings big end and rod judged any ideas folks you mentioned aftermarket carb deleted the text looks like that where your problem zebee johnstone dod you don own italian motorcycle merfman
rec.motorcycles	well blow down yuk yuk yuk have never experienced wind severe physically precluded operation motorcycle more matter deciding whether the aggravation more trouble than worth this course depends entirely your own particular circumstances and personal disposition and skill you haven done before can dangerous takes some getting used read list brad thone systems consultant systems service enterprises louis wuvmd wustl edu wuvmd bitnet
rec.motorcycles	was little hasty speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer wrote randy megatek com randy davis writes speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes jnmoyne lbl gov jean noel moyne writes what does dwi stand for thought was dui for driving under influence here what does stand for driving while intoxicated actually beleive dwi normally means driving while impaired rather than intoxicated least does the states lived this was changed here louisiana when girl went court and won her case claiming stoned pot not intoxicated liquor one can imparied without necessarily being impaired liquor drugs not enough sleep being total moron all can impair someone etc surprised this got her off the hook perhaps dwi lousiana confined liquor lets just say dui here now varies from state state has with operating vehicle while there greater than given percentage alcohol your bloodstream can drop this now and get back asking green getabike tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet like herd performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult redirect awe inspiring entertaining and source mind boggling amounts excrement when you least expect gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	traffic morons ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau wrote nmm from nielsmm imv aau niels mikkel michelsen nmm subject how act front traffic jerks nmm the other day was raining cats and dogs therefor was going only nmm the speed limit nothing more bike this guy his bmw was nmm driving meters behind for meters and the next red light nmm calmly put the bike its leg walked back this car rolled down the nmm window and told him was total idiot and the reason why nmm did the right thing nmm yours truly nmm niels mikkel well sounds great when have real bdi cager tailgating found that effective strategy flash brake light pumping the pedal you will obviously need bit free play your brake pedal this seems that even the most brain dead idiot can usually discern that flashing red light directly front him her may mean that something wrong sometimes yes sometimes bdi cagers usually move back then hyperagressive assholes just move closer something about testosterone stimulated behavior think kinda like waving red flag bull all all you can move over and let the jerk better than nothing tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet like herd performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult redirect awe inspiring entertaining and source mind boggling amounts excrement when you least expect gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	type spesifications vfr etc lets not forget sports touring honda
rec.motorcycles	windy days robert castro rdc cunixf columbia edu writes when how you decide that too windy ride you get blown over riding your bike down your drive home then too windy ride check nearby trees for wind strength and see how badly they are being affected the wind alan alan duncan dept computer science ducati edinburgh university scotland
rec.motorcycles	moa members another letter read light the last letter posted from jeff brody concering the crap that going the moa which some folks took not dissemination information that received but own bad mouthing thought that would post this one which came yesterday this from board member robert higdon moa pres chich morse this not words guys april cecil king nominating statement dear chick have very serious problem with the election for president the moa this year cecil king nominating statement appeared the owners news words nearly twice many that permitted the laws pertinent part the rules state each candidate biography and position statement shall limited combined total more than words the nominating committe shall cut afafter the word any biography and position statement exceeding this length obviously the nominationg committe was not the task had cecil statement been cut required would have concluded approximately with the word undertiding sic the second paragraph after the commencement his position statement result cecil has obtained what view grossly unfair advantage over the other candidates for president this does not just taint the election for that office makes mockery the process would appreciate your advising the board immediately what steps you intend take rectify this caricature fair election parenthetically your private correspondence with others would most appreciative that when tou call asshole you remind the letter recipient that the publication such comment almost guaranteed have woeful consequences with kind regards remain robert higdon moa ers you read think for yourself trust you know who cecil king and that was editor befor don douglass and pres candidate let you draw your own conclusions regards craig vechorik bmw moa ambassador bmw vintage bulletin tech editor dod real bmw have two wheels politically correct statement
rec.motorcycles	insuring cbr hey now having the roughest time getting company cover new bike here are some details about her and single riding with clean record homeowner new rider accoring most companies not member msf ama yet she cbr got miles got temp plates still one screamin bitch ride can you get some ideas can take them private email lower the noise the net mrr cwru edu good mail address need hear something soon can keep her the road thanks advance mark well weathered leather hot metal and oil the scented country air sunlight chrome the blur the landscape every nerve aware red barchetta straining the limits machine and man
rec.motorcycles	maxima chain wax and mail order article apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes article apr acs ucalgary parr acs ucalgary charles parr writes bought tried truly the miracle spooge chain lubed wheel clean after try the vfr but goddamn competition accessories hasn mailed order yet hell only been two weeks and was ordering some pretty bizzare stuff like clear face sheild and can chain wax bastards for what worth got can three days from chaparral that ups ground from ymmv the stuff seems work and doesn attract grundge like blue does gave the acid test full day worth breaking the quadracer new paddle tires down the sand dunes there anything wet stickey will coated with sand the end the day but the chain looked pretty clean far mail order goes chaparral has stock and they can tell you stock about how long will take back order not usually get three days competition accessories always seems take week two deliver motorcycle accessory warehouse also takes week two and after trying buy some boots from them last week don think they actually stock anything maw was about cheaper than chaparral alpinestars tech boots but monday was hoping get them the end the week asked maw completely unreasonable question you have them stock the conversation went something like this need know you have some boots stock you want pay with visa mastercard want know you have them stock well the computer doesn show anything have call the distributer find out have them you have them not don you understand what saying have call our distributer find out have them stock not right can you yea call back hour and ask for phil hour later phil isn there but mike says check and call him back half hour half hour later mike isn there either but left note that says they have them the end the month weeks away screw the bucks isn worth the hassle called chaparral and asked they had them stock ooh alpinestars probably not they are hard keep stock but check what size size let see yes size blue white gray white black take the blacks this was about noon monday they arrived thursday morning once again three days via ups ground like chaparral not completely down maw they often have lower prices but prepared wait and anyone the market for sand tires and other atv stuff scorcher seems like good outfit friendly fast had the tires wanted stock and were cheaper than chaparral too blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd com
rec.motorcycles	your opinion and what means article apr bnr mbeaving bnr writes take you own advice and wuit you whining about flames brains and can spell either edu hope you not student duke you would wasting your tuition the beav mike beavington dod sabre mbeaving bnr employer has idea what talking about ooooooh complaining about spelling hurt not student alumnus and employee can get money back from these grubs bnr huh hope you not permanent they wasting benefits you pthptptphhph andy infante you can listen what everybody says but the fact remains bmw that you got get out there and the thing yourself dod joan sutherland opinions dammit have nothing with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	daytona article rtaraz apr bigwpi wpi edu rtaraz bigwpi wpi edu ramin taraz writes well watched the daytona race tnn boy for the people who saw was the yamaha lot faster than the kawi what the last stretch the yami took and left the kawi the dust kawi rider and totaly disappointed the kawi wasn that the lawson owo was faster you watch the tape again russell had major backmarker problems before getting onto the banking doesn matter what bike you have you lose your drive your hosed the two bikes are almost identically fast check out the qualifying times
rec.motorcycles	need advice for riding with someone pillion article mjs zen sys uea mjs sys uea mike sixsmith writes riding would far sooner have the pillion hanging the bike rather than because find that their weight can cause move and that can upset the balance the bike most the pillions see over here hold the grabrail the really good ones don hang anything unless violent acceleration taking place hmmmmn don you ride with your sweetheart tuba irwin honk therefore computrac richardson irwin cmptrc lonestar org dod
rec.motorcycles	two beemer questions article apr organpipe uug arizona edu asphaug lpl arizona edu erik asphaug writes hello folks very happy with new range miles gallons that mpg surprisingly the bike real cruiser was expecting something rough she sweet backroad honey and can pretty much anyplace take mountain bike far shaft effect more torque effect from the crankshaft opinion rev sitting still when the driveshaft not moving and the bike twists bit maybe don ride her fast enough get shaft effect but opinion not start another shaft effect discussion but the twist you feel when revving sitting still due the larger fly wheels that the bmw bikes maybe too dunno use you whack the throttle stop lights really rock the bike over the right snip snip run two lights the standard headlamp plus sidelamp mounted the crash bar the illumination excellent that way with full beam coming out from the level the motor left side the lamp beam linear that you get bright streak illumination from left right and really picks the periphery deer lurking etc combined with the headlamp high you can see like day but heard that bmw alternators don crank out too much need shut down the sidelamp when puttering around the dirt low rpm please post you come any conclusion this thinking putting light each cylinder guard and was wondering whether was going have switch lights off every time was under rpm kawi zephyr erik asphaug this where wanna sit and buy you drink someday temple the dog sea bass sears scs cunixb columbia edu dod stanley yamaha bmw toyota runner nyc
rec.motorcycles	maxima chain wax article itu news ysu edu yfn ysu edu writes previous article txd esd com com tom dietrich says parr acs ucalgary charles parr writes bought tried truly the miracle spooge chain lubed wheel clean after too have seen the miracle maxima chain wax not only does lube and stay where supposed but swear can ride faster now yes not only does lube your chain makes you better rider and more attractive members the opposing sex and smarter and works really well bike too tony tony kidson pgp key request voice morgan towers the cat has had move now mail order morgan road had take the top tony morgan demon bromley off the machine tny cix compulink england honda dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	boom dog attack article apr dsd com bgardner bambam com blaine gardner writes article bong kfp slac mac slac stanford edu bong slac stanford edu eric bong writes article cbnews att com nak cbnews att com neil kirby wrote bicycling technique employed was use frame mounted tire pump fend off dog attacks have bayonet the factory scabbard from swedish mouser mounted the handlebars zuki that blade and long arms quite well thank you dod technician speed not student stolen taglines hey where did they you don think naahh
rec.motorcycles	why wanted police officers answer posting article csundh ursa csundh ursa calvin edu charles sundheim writes viking iastate edu dan sorenson writes and copped heh attitude when was stopped speaking guy who recieved verbal warning for mph just have laugh shreveport back when was riding the purple water buffalo jumped intersection front cop who was waiting for the light the side the street was was hidden buy building the corner and didn see him till was airborne the middle the intersection was parked had helment off and liscence out before turned the corner chewed ass out and let will the first admit was very squidly thing jumping the intersection like that the cop should have nailed find that you are polite respectfull and honest they will normaly let you get away with lot stuff the shock mounts folded the next day guess deserved that dod technician speed not student stolen taglines hey where did they you don think naahh
rec.motorcycles	are other riders welcome join group article apr pacbell com jscosta srv pacbell com jon costa writes when riding group generally speaking most people mind when another rider tags along had the distinct feeling may not have been welcome when tagged along with group last weekend yer welcome ride with and friends any time just introduce your self the earliest opportunity and say mind rid with you guys dod technician speed not student stolen taglines hey where did they you don think naahh
rec.motorcycles	bmw heated grips bergman panix com mark bergman writes those you who have the bmw heated handgrips are they comfortable they transmit lot vibration how they compare the stock grips foam grips don have the grips but have looked into getting them understanding that the grips themselves are the standard european style grips now coming standard the bikes etc also understanding that the heater resides inside the bar itself anything would suspect would reduce vibration providing more bar end mass don see why they wouldn work with the old style foam grips aside from the fact that might cause the foam deteriorate something hard belive considering they fine the degree texas summers course don actually have them you can save your flames joe senner joe rider cactus org bmw mailing list bmw rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org
rec.motorcycles	windy days article xuqm dxu dcs amd dcs alan duncan writes robert castro rdc cunixf columbia edu writes when how you decide that too windy ride handlebar mounted windshields windy days are fun all has been windy hell down here for week and plays hell with the steering still ride just bitch lot about dod technician speed not student stolen taglines hey where did they you don think naahh
rec.motorcycles	ain for article speedy engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes confused like that surprise someone asked for copy the faq via mail not the kotfaq was wondering what the proper responce you should post his her email request with proper attributes course the newsgroup the request then becomes matter rec moto public record and warrants the ceremonial gang faqing glad help ride safe cliff weston dod seca tem this bike excellent condition done all the work myself glen crash stone
rec.motorcycles	mail order response time have ordered many times from competition accesories and ussually get day delivery once they had backorder something but they sent card say would two weeks came days always satisfied with and life rich sturges nswc carderock division speak for one else and listen the same
rec.motorcycles	bmw heated grips article rider uucp joe rider cactus org joe senner writes bergman panix com mark bergman writes those you who have the bmw heated handgrips are they comfortable they transmit lot vibration how they compare the stock grips foam grips don have the grips but have looked into getting them understanding that the grips themselves are the standard european style grips now coming standard the bikes etc also understanding that the heater resides inside the bar itself anything would suspect would reduce vibration providing more bar end mass don see why they wouldn work with the old style foam grips aside from the fact that might cause the foam deteriorate something hard belive considering they fine the degree texas summers someone once sold heated motorcycle grips via mail order the were aftermarket replacement grips that had the heating elements mlded into the grip itself wires ran outside the bars from the grips switch and finaly the battery cycle magazine tested them years ago and liked them dunno they are still made might check with the snowmobile racers dod technician speed not student umop apisdn
rec.motorcycles	well blow down yuk yuk yuk long time back months think similar question was asked suggestion addition list was put your windward knee out away from the bike tried and seems help actually brad thone systems consultant systems service enterprises louis wuvmd wustl edu wuvmd bitnet
rec.motorcycles	the best times the worst times article nujinncti gap caltech edu ridgway cco caltech edu alex ridgway writes paulb harley tti com paul blumstein writes problem turned out screw unscrewed inside mikuni carb keep hearing that one should keep all the screws tight bike but never thought that had that the screws inside carb least was roadside fixable and was way hardly any time gee always figured that was the loose screws the rider that were most likely cause any problems did you check for that the same time that very true however screws have been loose this rider for quite some time they had been taken into account russian roulette fun out times paul blumstein paulb harley tti com dod abate ama hog doh laa marc arrl platypus qrp arpci naswa lwca rcma cala transaction technology inc santa monica
rec.motorcycles	help adjust tappits article jcn lactose rice edu jcn rice edu writes and speaking shims why would the clearance the valves get smaller need the use thinner shim valve seat wear tony tony kidson pgp key request voice morgan towers the cat has had move now mail order morgan road had take the top tony morgan demon bromley off the machine tny cix compulink england honda dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	owners tankbag suggestions wanted article apr mnemosyne edu mwallace nyx edu mark wallace writes bgardner pebbles com blaine gardner writes article apr ncsu edu martenm chess ncsu edu mar marten writes looking for new tank bag now and wondered you follow owners could make some suggestions what has and has with the large flat gas tank imagine that almost anything would work personally quite happy with eclipse standard tank bag think the only thing watch for the number attachment straps most come with and some with have bagman strap tankbag and because the rear the tank narrow the fit not optimal good point overlooked that the eclipse has point mount the rear and the front and very stable the have seen some with harnesses that mount the sides the tank and that would real problem the blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd com
rec.motorcycles	need advice for riding with someone pillion article mjs zen sys uea mjs sys uea mike sixsmith writes lemay netcom com laura lemay writes lotsa stuff deleted switch your hands the guardrail stretch your shoulders but sure and squeeze your thighs while you doing your rider knows you still there the guard rail isn safe holding onto your rider hmmmm why does everyone that side the pond seem want pillions hang the rider rather than the grabrail because guy and most pillions are female also the other reasons like having idea where you passengers weight being more comfortable position for the passenger and being more stable configuration all come into well holding the grab rail great idea only for braking when you don want the pillion slide forward into you otherwise don find works well david dagibbs qnx com
rec.motorcycles	story respect article apr pacesetter com lynn pacesetter com lynn hall writes just got back from the annual southern california harley dealers association run the colorado river city lauglin nevada why that some people can enjoy themselves without being assholes you want treated with respect you need treat others their property and their towns with respect several years ago was the annual fly the experimental aircraft association eaa near oshkosh wisconsin although approximately people were attendance there was not piece litter anywhere everyone was considerate enough place their trash where belonged there problem having fun raising hell etc but consideration and respect for others critical need work with each other not against nudity fine loud noise fine party all night fine but the right place and time please let not trample over other rights and then bitch because they don treat like gods michael menard you know wasn even going respond this typical anti party attitude message trash was everywhere reason not enough dipsy dumpsters for the massive crowd oatman wasn prepared for the vast number people that showed btw michael oatman the right place time called run maybe you didn read comment that they loved and talking about the merchants and townspeople the merchants that didn want their shops were closed maybe should have mentioned that when left the trash was being picked aluminum sells crew assigned the task think the bottom line here they want back they this action that went oatman typical predominatly harley run innocent fun since enjoy typical harley fun runs your eyes that makes asshole already admitted asshole many times the net all friends are assholes too lyrics new song you want dime call someone that cares appears have difference opinion maybe you should look the big picture before you pass judgement others annual that should tell you something lynn hall nos bros
rec.motorcycles	dogs article apr acs ucalgary parr acs ucalgary charles parr writes article pntm cbnewsj att com car cbnewsj att com charles rogers writes this tactic depends for its effectiveness the dog conformance psychological norm that may not actually apply particular dog tried with some success before but won work charlie manson dog one that really really stupid large irish setter taught this yard apparently his territory one day sure was playing game with the game was probably kill the very angry neighbor before can dispense the terrible punishment what dog weighs maybe max you can handle you have presume thumbs grapple with and tear head off sheesh even trained attack dog match for human have all the advantages look you are worried about being attacked dog just carry some spot remover with you russian roulette fun out times paul blumstein paulb harley tti com dod abate ama hog doh laa marc arrl platypus qrp arpci naswa lwca rcma cala transaction technology inc santa monica
rec.motorcycles	your opinion and what means article apr rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda writes view drunk driving should carry mandatory prison sentence one the traffic offenses which not public funds issue but genuine safety issue you bring the subject rec moto admitting having been caught dwi and looking for sympathy over the consequences don expect people respond with warm wishes dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com getting tired concours mmmmmmmmmm beating you dave ring ding woops you never learn ama dod cog chicago beth bruiser dixon not being able drive for year was close enough jail and btw where the hell did ask for sympathy asked what about insurance not about life fwiw everyone was honest this group others besides that read this have had dwi too andy infante you can listen what everybody says but the fact remains bmw that you got get out there and the thing yourself dod joan sutherland opinions dammit have nothing with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	kinder gentler bmw mailing list rbp netcom com bob pasker writes would shame split boxer riders between different lists unless course the existing list failed meet the readers needs nowhere did see you mention bikes which being made bmw are welcome list fact you out your way say most all boxer talk welcome your list appears cater boxers that great list caters bmw without any restrictions like you have considering that the subscription count went within hours initial post about the list which was made around just before went bed say that there need for bmw list opposed just boxer list motivation for setting the bmw list came from earlier post yours announcing your boxer list didn fit needs pissed each other list let get back the regular net noise and read our respective lists joe senner joe rider cactus org bmw mailing list bmw rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org
rec.motorcycles	bonding with caged cop akelley oracle uucp alyn kelley writes waving policeman happy policeman nice policeman has anyone else experienced this phenomenon somehow the only one have been blessed with cop good mood insert mild sarcasm alyn dod seca well not however wouldn trade all the times close friend has been pulled over cussed and shouted and finally let off with verbal warning exchange for few waves smiles you like but serious later art yes sir sir sorry sir thank you sir arturo informix com
rec.motorcycles	moa members another letter read has anyone noticed that all this happened since chris perez was gifted with membership anyone for rec motorcycles beemer club whiner know this might get confused with whiners but maybe there connection blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd com
rec.motorcycles	kinder gentler bmw mailing list hesh cup com chris steinbroner writes sorry had take out motorcycles because news server rejected hesh bob pasker rbp netcom com wrote would shame split boxer riders between different lists unless course the existing list failed meet the readers needs you presumed you needed split out list implication your split plain bmw list wouldn meet the riders needs good point the list actually started out extension shootout list which why got that name since inception however other boxer interested folks have joined and the conversation has not always been geared specific topics for the sake not forcing the split issue how about changing the charter and renaming your list from bmw just bmw would that make everybody happy when raised the expand not expand that the question question the list itself there were mixed feelings the list has always been open anyone with non bouncing from line and there has been general agreement that only boxer related stuff appropriate almost all the subscribers own bikes although some and owners are also this point main interest for the list preserve the peace and comraderie while the same time providing wide access possible the list fairly technical with how this what kind that should get kinds questions there has yet any non bmw bashing bike bashing any bmw mfg after piece shit bashing such posts are consent the governed proscribed the simple name change would make significant difference the net boxer owners then not going stand the way progress hesh let turn the question around have you has anyone else not joined the list because you felt your boxer was excluded bob pasker rbp netcom com
rec.motorcycles	dogs bikes article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes article ccu umanitoba klinger ccu umanitoba jorg klinger writes have large farting dog and have made real effort trying train him but still just flatulates will don feed much seriously first would like break him this and then worry about his chasing things you can you obviously waited too long are not putting much effort into dog not always used fart all the time making her notice course the smell doesn bother her and thence kicking her outside somewhat literally she came realize that she shoudln least not around sort like that scene the minister study when the secretary lets one fly and the startled dog runs from the room the minister explains every time mrs soandso breaks wind beat the dog jonathan quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf gleep naperville there nothing quite like the pitter patter little feet followed the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	looking for movies bikes article apr virginia edu cds virginia edu christopher douglas saady writes there also billy jack the wild one smokey and the bandit where jerry reed runs his truck over motorcycle gangs bikes and video tape documentary the hell angels found rental store once don forget robert blake electra glide blue where else you get see full dress harley playing with dirt bikes and you going count smokey and the bandit then you darn well better include pee wee big adventure jonathan quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf gleep naperville there nothing quite like the pitter patter little feet followed the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	maxima chain wax previous article txd esd com com tom dietrich says parr acs ucalgary charles parr writes bought tried truly the miracle spooge chain lubed wheel clean after too have seen the miracle maxima chain wax not only does lube and stay where supposed but swear can ride faster now yes not only does lube your chain makes you better rider and more attractive members the opposing sex and smarter and dod darkman the significant problems face cannot solved the same level thinking were when created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	what squid was riceburner respect previous article serafin epcot spdc com mike serafin says poser squid was the guy saw yesterday way home similar attire above sans jacket april texas know but riding down the amazing and thought only california got april dod darkman the significant problems face cannot solved the same level thinking were when created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies possible wheelie motorcycle with shaft drive the owner sabre shaftie can answer from personal experience aieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee chuck smythe dod
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies article apr newbridge com bradw newbridge com brad warkentin writes article bethdc netcom com bethd netcom com beth dixon writes beth the one true beth dixon bethd netcom com yamaha spike the garage rat fssnoc now just wait one cotton picking minute here dod rule section paragraph clearly indicates that multiple people can lay claim bike obvious ploy artificially increase the size their stable the question the day spike owned lady true class and breeding definition any woman who rides tom the harely head spike owned both tom and went the purchase price and have split costs needed parts registration etc both names are the pink slip also note that you lay claim connie sport like said obviously lady discriminating taste covered insurance ride the harley give could work the clutch can barely get the clutch lever move using both hands while standing next the bike sport very distinctive bike the concours favorite mine pillioned easy miles that bike the last year unfortunately feet are good off the ground once her way could take her for ride pilot rather than pillion could fit concours buy one imho the best sport tourer made not too upset had settle for the ducati touring bike though bored minds wanta know now you know beth beth the one true beth dixon bethd netcom com yamaha excitable girl dod yamaha spike the garage rat fssnoc ducati ama ducati monza restoration project kqspt can keep handle anything just this side deranged top
rec.motorcycles	back breaker near hit article menudo edu inde rosie edu writes another the list but with this one felt the most helpless sitting light about car lengths behind car wise decsion suddenly hear screeching tires dart eyes mirrors and realize the moroon flying right behind panic pop clutch and stall the bike luckily the guy stops foot behind rear wheel understand why you theoretically stop far behind car but can you really actuality avoid such incident suggestions only ever done automatic was sitting olds the winter light when heard screeching behind managed dart into the left turn lane before the sliding jetta wound half where was and half the parked car beside where was never had occasion bike but imagine that would even easier because you could slip beside the car front giving gander the mirrors while light will give you time get the clutch out smoothly when you notice trouble instead waiting for the screeching bike like jody levine dod got you can you jody levine hydro ride toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	was little hasty rec motorcycles egreen east sun com green pixel cruncher writes driving while impared allows for prosecution drivers under the influence variety drugs like non sudafed cold medicines jeff deeney dod nctr shamu jld hpfcla com ama cohvco llamaha the sound fresh rain run off splashing from the roof reminded the sound urine splashing into filthy texaco latrine jack handey
rec.motorcycles	well blow down yuk yuk yuk rec motorcycles rdc cunixf columbia edu robert castro writes when how you decide that too windy ride when the bugs are splatting the side helmet instead the faceshield when semis are their side the downwind ditch when can see the road for all the tumbleweeds rolling past when the airborne sand gravel sandblasting paint job when all the above happening once the middle wonderful wyldoming well was gusting mph cheers vlj
rec.motorcycles	back breaker near hit article menudo edu inde rosie edu writes understand why you theoretically stop far behind car but can you really actuality avoid such incident suggestions you had been looking your mirror you would have seen the guy coming before you heard the screeching tires when you stopped light stop that you got space front you and quick easy escape route between lanes into crosswalk driveway somewhere someone decides they want plow into you keep the bike first with the clutch until least couple cars are stopped behind you you don have waste second you don have trying get gear you need move watch your mirrors that situation most the hazards you are trying avoid are coming from behind you sipde msf geek speak isn just for when you moving and you less likely panic and stall the bike you got time prepare before the guy tires lock behind you you still get the bejeezus scared out you but more feeling quickly rising dread than sudden jolt ray shea unisql inc unisql ray utexas edu dod team twinkie hawk
rec.motorcycles	bmw heated grips orating with wild abandon prange nickel ucs indiana edu henry prange offers the grips are wonderful thing the winter and problem the summer vibration bmw don vibrate everyone knows that agree with henry the grips are really nice have winter and aren noticably different from normal grips summer only complaint that the low setting might well off this has been complained about every reviewer official and unofficial that ever talked about these grips the high setting often too high for use with lightweight summer gloves when things just get bit nippy but since low doesn produce noticable effect end turning the grips and off keep the temperature about right this generally isn problem when wearing thicker winter gloves when asked the dealer they could fix received consoling pat the back and their sincere apologies for the poor design actually was told they worked just like they were suppose vibration what that ride bmw twin you can barely tell the engine fired not most the time smoother than silk sheets ken wallich wallich ncd com ken wallich com kmw org decwrl vixie amber ken
rec.motorcycles	where put your helmet article uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes another good place for your helmet your mirror kid you not you own typical standard other bike with fairly average mirrors that screw into your handlebars your helmet should fit over your mirror and fairly stable careful that you not have any weight the helmet resting the mirror will depress the foam liner the helmet that not the kind foam that bounces back like foam rubber its purpose life absorb energy impact compressed your noggin your mirror compresses there that much less energy absorbing capacity left cushon your noggin crash found the right handlebar good spot the sidestand hang with the chinbar facing balanced across the grip and brake lever such that the weight the helmet doesn compress any the chinbar foam this more challanging with open face helmet green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker green east sun com and showed him picture you said dod get know her you like her the grateful dead seemed like the least could
rec.motorcycles	point for helmet law point for article prcrs prc com terry prcrs prc com terry cunningham writes know law either the books proposed that bans motorcycles from any place that want you really see problem with banning them from places which you don want have not heard discussed with non motorcycling persons read any popular movement either the country whole any the states that out get motorcycles talk somebody the insurance industry particularly after few drinks then talk mom booze required one more thing the public misinformed and misunderstands you state what are you and the others posting this doing correct the situation ever heard the dod ever since hit teens have found that there were terrible wrongs right attitudes adust blah blah blah fortunately grew nah you just became complacent that long your little quarter acre safe you get your little tax deduction and act the government intrudes too direct and obvious way into your little day day life you just don give shit green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker green east sun com and showed him picture you said dod get know her you like her the grateful dead seemed like the least could
rec.motorcycles	live free but quietly die article agate berkeley edu robinson cogsci berkeley edu michael robinson writes article quaq sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes article cbnewsm att com shz mare att com keeper the tude writes don you mean former motorcyclist green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker sure there perfectly reasonable explanation yep green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker green east sun com and showed him picture you said dod get know her you like her the grateful dead seemed like the least could
rec.motorcycles	countersteering faq please post article deh synoptics com noemi synoptics com noemi berry writes guess how you turn horse look where you want and plan your turns and jumps the best riders give refined smooth inputs the beast lots maintenance leather looks cool sound familiar black ones look better none are truely indiginous america although some the finest are produced here gear expensive and you never seem have enough volvos hit them only idiots intentionally rear the front half off the ground just look cool posers don ride them the rain they are dangerous ice loud ones are annoying and too much chrome looks dumb yep sounds familiar green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker green east sun com and showed him picture you said dod get know her you like her the grateful dead seemed like the least could
rec.motorcycles	countersteering faq please post article zen sys uea mjs sys uea mike sixsmith writes all that argue about gyroscopes etc throughly understand the technique countersteering including all the ones who think that they countersteer all the way through corner well all the way through decreasing radius corner anyway this really the only thing disagree maybe should agree disagree but right the official line here though have doubts about that the front brake applied first followed the rear brake the idea being that you avoid locking the rear after weight transfer takes place that the official line taught those rider education classes you were refering that also don teach countersteering have question the quality the classes the official line msf curricula described maximum braking achieved applying both brakes equally when the weight distribution nominally even and both tires have equal normal forces and easing off the rear prevent locking and increasing braking the front more traction available the front due increased normal force due weight shift the official line you have been taught seems ineffective the face applying the rear brake after the front not taking advantage all the traction available the rear time and halving the available braking power using only the front time saying brake until the tire just begins slide next useless advice newbie has out and slide the tire find out where that also gives him zero information from which develop braking technique that changes the braking and corresponding weight shift develop you don slide the tyre you have way knowing whether you achieved maximum braking not not suggesting that you should always aim brake hard you possibly can but you want find the limits the machine you have beyond them not necessarily true chirping the tire indicates impending lockup most surfaces and serves good guide newbies indicate maximum braking agree that totally locking the front occasionally makes one better rider but manuver best saved for experienced rider unless you have one those outrigger bikes like code used use any case for maximum braking suggested you aim keep both wheels just the point sliding then you doing exactly you suggest true but from the point view how best teach riding skills which how this discussion started keep both wheels just the point sliding nearly useless information you need teach technique least strategy achieve this green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker green east sun com and showed him picture you said dod get know her you like her the grateful dead seemed like the least could
rec.motorcycles	countersteering sans hands article bdrc com clarke bdrc com richard clarke writes how steer when hands aren the bars open budweiser left hand camel cigarette the right feet allowed lean and the bike turns countersteering countersteering method for leaning the bike another method leaning once leaned the bike turns all itself green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker green east sun com and showed him picture you said dod get know her you like her the grateful dead seemed like the least could
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies article wrs wslack uucp wrs wslack uucp bill slack writes various posts about shafties can wheelies mike imposible due the shaft effect the centripital effects the rotating shaft counteract any tendency for the front wheel lift off the ground good point john buddy mine told that same thing when had bmw dumped the clutch rpm hey ito nly revved and you know what was right folks the shaft doesn have diddleysquatpoop with can get the front wheel off the ground ferchrissake you may have been able bounce the front but not actually wheelie see the shaft effect unloads the rear susspension and effectivly loads the front this why shaft bike should accelerate starts scraping corner laz
rec.motorcycles	was little hasty article moustic lbl gov jnmoyne lbl gov jean noel moyne writes what does dwi stand for thought was dui for driving under influence here what does stand for driving while impared allows for prosecution drivers under the influence variety drugs green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker green east sun com and showed him picture you said dod get know her you like her the grateful dead seemed like the least could
rec.motorcycles	was little hasty article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes also recently last few years decided that due the fact there are constantly people the road drunk driving they will raise their awareness making stricter laws and such now believe has the toughest laws for dwi while not necessarily increasing any amount awareness kills the highways meaning only made difference sentencing automatic revocation your license for year not sure the toughtest law around but has absolutely sense humor with respect driving laws anyway think they put you jail and sell your first child into slavery for passing school bus bill breezed through the house lower the intoxification level from faces stiff opposition the senate recently the highway patrol took few the opposition senators out and gave them some shots and when they hit put them course dodging cones they failed and will probably change their votes result for some bizarre reason the only state where the governer has veto power over legislation coming out the state congress his opinion the matter moot green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker green east sun com and showed him picture you said dod get know her you like her the grateful dead seemed like the least could
rec.motorcycles	story article apr pacesetter com lynn pacesetter com lynn hall writes just got back from the annual southern california harley dealers association run the colorado river city lauglin nevada aka the lauglin run went there too all can say too much trash hate the the can bite
rec.motorcycles	need advice for riding with someone pillion never ridden pillion very much but recently had excellent experience passengering with dave edmondson pilot while london found that upset the bike much less rode with the pilot that looked over his shoulder and anticipated when should hold hard for braking acceleration tried always look over the inside shoulder corners and move little possible leaving dave manage and the bike normally would the bike and luggage hard acceleration can quite unnerving the feeling being spit off the back hard fight similarly held the grab handles tightly when dave needed brake not mash him pulp lot bigger than reaching around him and pushing off the tank seemed like would very awkward and make even harder for him manage the rare occasions when carry passenger myself absolutely refuse carry anyone who not properly accoutered for riding that helmet jacket gloves stout pants and shoes boots minimum not responsibility provide this gear but responsibility require they want ride and agree with earlier poster you not had much experience carrying particular passenger and especially you not carried many passengers before take few gentler rides some duration before you head off difficult road like mines hamilton that nasty place find yourself trouble godfrey digiorgi ramarren apple com dod ama rule never sell ducati the street finds its own rule always obey rule uses for things ducati cinelli toyota krups nikon sony apple telebit
rec.motorcycles	type spesifications vfr etc article srgenprp com frankb sad com frank ball writes vidar olaf solberg vidaros dhhalden wrote can somebody tell what all the letter spesifications motorcycle models really mean street bike with parallel twin inline cylinder engine frank ball frankb sad com work hmmm first bike was single
rec.motorcycles	squids and dealers article vxh auv cbnewsl att com kstell cbnewsl att com kevin stell writes stuff chopped here the part that concerned the and those shop personel that were not busy with customers went back out where said members fired their rides and did the obligatory reving those beasts this point one decided see how much rubber katana could deposit the drive squids thought myself but was appalled that the salesdroids manager not only condoned this behavior but encourged the point were they were betting how long could keep and egged him pull wheely rode off onto busy street around rush hour the girl that was riding pillion another bike seemed rather hormonal about this display and urged her pilot quickly catch the others followed making sure there kerkers could heard well felt you gotta understand these salesdroids you call them they look this way burn lotsa tire make lotsa money sure knew how stupid the was would you seriously stop them from burning off seasons worth tire the squids probably would buy metzelers some good low profile tire anyhow yep them droids sure sneaky bastards regards ted university toronto computer engineering powerusersgroupchairman fzr taking ride with best friend dod
rec.motorcycles	good reasons wave each other jlevine hydro jody levine writes has anyone while driving cage ever waved bikers get the urge but never actually done yeah all the time nice spring summer day roll down the window and drive around looking for bikes when bike motors the opposite direction stick arm out and arm feels like million bucks when doing this the same thing with cyclists the only problem with ing cyclist their always the right hand lane hafta roll down the other window and them the back well think they appreciate the thought regards ted university toronto computer engineering powerusersgroupchairman fzr taking ride with best friend dod
rec.motorcycles	first bike honda ascot article contex contex com frank marvin contex com frank perdicaro says the fun wanted buy one but waited years bought hawk instead friends owners the former cycle shop andover bought one new but several years old cost him you should not pay too much for one hear they can fitted with the front end interceptor and thus have great brakes sounds like fun some dude this forum has one thats all tricked out second hand bike warns that they are fine until miles the good beginner bike with reasonable seating position enough power get you and around but not much scare the bejeebers out you tips over well and easy pick don ask simple maintenance had mine for four years and haven had any serious problems with bought used for with about miles just last week someone the neighborhood stopped ask about whether thought was good beginner bike comfortable and powerful enough blah blah blah seems found one used for with about miles the reall trick mod heard was take the front end from hurricane and slide this was from guy who campaigns two ascots sos racing says they pretty well too once you strip off the starter lights and other assorted street paraphernalia its pretty fast and light bike andrew coll esv psuvm bitnet esv psuvm psu edu
rec.motorcycles	need advice for riding with someone pillion irwin cmptrc lonestar org irwin arnstein writes article mjs zen sys uea mjs sys uea mike sixsmith writes riding would far sooner have the pillion hanging the bike rather than because find that their weight can cause move and that can upset the balance the bike most the pillions see over here hold the grabrail the really good ones don hang anything unless violent acceleration taking place hmmmmn don you ride with your sweetheart only dreams
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies hey nick got bounce from postmaster bnr seems that they never heard user npet you should sort these guys out tony tony kidson pgp key request voice morgan towers the cat has had move now mail order morgan road had take the top tony morgan demon bromley off the machine tny cix compulink england honda dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies article apr megatek com randy megatek com writes when did you out and change the laws physics according some numbers used see bandied around shaft drive the order efficient while chain drive closer seems that this makes chain drive more efficient hmmmmm well maintained chains running oil without those little rubber rings cause frictional losses might reach efficiency the average open the dust ring motorcycle chain probably has difficult job making efficient tony tony kidson pgp key request voice morgan towers the cat has had move now mail order morgan road had take the top tony morgan demon bromley off the machine tny cix compulink england honda dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	back breaker near hit article menudo edu inde rosie edu writes bike luckily the guy stops foot behind rear wheel understand why you theoretically stop far behind car but can you really actuality avoid such incident suggestions anybody who drove into somebody like that this country would hopefully lose their licence however the avoidance simple don stop behind the cage stop beside better still front that acts buffer tony tony kidson pgp key request voice morgan towers the cat has had move now mail order morgan road had take the top tony morgan demon bromley off the machine tny cix compulink england honda dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	back breaker near hit why you let such brain dead idiots drive the tony tony kidson pgp key request voice morgan towers the cat has had move now mail order morgan road had take the top tony morgan demon bromley off the machine tny cix compulink england honda dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	please tell they not permenant scratches there way wax out dull finish minor scrathes while passngering fiance bandit hip pack rubbed against the tail and left nasty dull finish and teeny scratches there way get rid these buff them out wax them out help thanks advance cathy cathy saum andrew cmu edu negley ave yamaha seca pgh custom wooden tank studio mustang dod supercalifragilisticexpealidotious
rec.motorcycles	kinder gentler bmw mailing list joe sorry you felt was pissing your list disparagement was intended and would most interested know what said that made you feel that way not suggesting that your list superflous nor that will not serve need just would like not see the boxer contingent split but there certainly enough net for more than one list bob pasker rbp netcom com
rec.motorcycles	was little hasty jnmoyne moustic lbl gov jnmoyne lbl gov jean noel moyne writes hold second and clarify something for what does dwi stand for thought was dui for driving under influence here what does stand for jnm here iowa has been owi operating under the influence and omvi operating motor vehicle under the influence they gov changed omvi that people motor boats could also charged with drunk driving eerik villberg people for the eerik iastate edu eating harris street tasty ames animals
rec.motorcycles	back breaker near hit article apr hydro jlevine hydro jody levine writes article menudo edu inde rosie edu writes another the list but with this one felt the most helpless sitting light about car lengths behind car wise decsion suddenly hear screeching tires dart eyes mirrors and realize the moroon flying right behind panic pop clutch and stall the bike luckily the guy stops foot behind rear wheel understand why you theoretically stop far behind car but can you really actuality avoid such incident suggestions another tip make sure you keep well one side the lane this gives you quicker escape route jeff goss
rec.motorcycles	looking for movies bikes article dpd dcs qmw davide dcs qmw dave edmondson writes charles sundheim csundh ursa calvin edu wrote folks assembling info for film criticism class final project how bout big faus and little halsey with robert redford and that little guy that was bonnie clyde good flick imho michael michael nelson cbr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod
rec.motorcycles	max handling request jearls tekig pen tek com jeffrey david earls wrote ntuvax ntu writes hello there can anyone who has handson experience riding the yamaha max pls kindly comment its handling some guy came the omrra race school last weekend with number plates his max didn get more than practice laps before pushed the frame too hard and drove him into the guard rail the back straight portland international raceway now for max max handling ferget btw the rider was conscious and semi coherent when the ambulance carted him off that all know hate pick someone who may have been seriously injured let hope not but semi coherent sounds like good description someone who shows the track vmax the first place tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet like herd performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult redirect awe inspiring entertaining and source mind boggling amounts excrement when you least expect gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	live free but quietly die egreen east sun com green pixel cruncher wrote shz mare att com keeper the tude writes egreen east sun com green pixel cruncher writes know sounds ludicrous for biker advocate restrictions biking biking forum don you mean former motorcyclist hmmmmmmmmm can read this one two ways gotabike motorcyclist like alcoholic once you alcoholic you always alcoholic least that what friends position know tell tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet like herd performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult redirect awe inspiring entertaining and source mind boggling amounts excrement when you least expect gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	bmw boxer karr cornell edu david karr wrote mjs sys uea mike sixsmith writes did anyone see the for the new bmw boxer television the weekend not since have reception and cable not likely see any ads and did they most likely have been taped the anyway yeh tough pick telly your situation signs type ads the states yet but don watch much not real position comment but got invite the dealer introduction the deck out back rsvp the way tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet like herd performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult redirect awe inspiring entertaining and source mind boggling amounts excrement when you least expect gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	yamaha locks was cobra lock has anyone any experience with the new yamaha cyclelok looks like uses the same hardened steel kryptonite lock but unlike lock hinged places and opens out large rectangle longer length than any lock have seen plus folds down real small you could lock the rear tire steel post for example was curious how well the jointed sections would stand attack tony tony jones ant cray com uunet cray ant cmcs codegeneration group software division cray research inc lone oak drive eagan
rec.motorcycles	maxima chain wax and mail order article apr dsd com bgardner pebbles com blaine gardner writes article apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes article apr acs ucalgary parr acs ucalgary charles parr writes bought tried truly the miracle spooge chain lubed wheel clean after try the vfr but goddamn competition accessories hasn mailed order yet hell only been two weeks and was ordering some pretty bizzare stuff like clear face sheild and can chain wax bastards for what worth got can three days from chaparral that ups ground from ymmv the stuff seems work and doesn attract grundge like blue does gave the acid test full day worth breaking the quadracer new paddle tires down the sand dunes there anything wet stickey will coated with sand the end the day but the chain looked pretty clean third the recommendation miracle spooge don the dealer get what happened might happen you you put deposit new bike sigh chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nec com baby bike disclaimer now why would nec needs name agree with any this anyway was raised pack wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	cobra locks article apr hemlock cray com ant palm cray com tony jones writes steve bunis southwest chicago doc webrider central sun com wrote was posting alt locksmithing about the best methods for securing motorcycle got several responses referring the cobra lock described below has anyone come across store carrying this lock the chicago area any other feedback from someone who has used this what about the new yamaha cyclelok far from new been around almost long dirt from the photo motorcyclist looks the same hardened steel kryptonite lock except folds five places seems extend out far enough lock the rear tire the tube parking sign similar anyone had any experience with them how easy attack the lock the jointed sections had one for one old bikes worked fine sure being rigid and nonflexible that the cyclelok would yield instantly the freeze and break routine but then for what want later chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nec com baby bike disclaimer now why would nec needs name agree with any this anyway was raised pack wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	help adjust tappits well just got all the parts replaced that needed replced sprokets chain and notice that engine still taps like did before all our local experts say the tappits that need some adjusting soon attempt that would like any advice anyone had not have shop manual but have read about the procedure chiltons and few other places there anything need particularaly carful any problems anyone else has encountered ride yamaha exciter stop laughing tiny but shiny matthew sheppard clarkson university sheppamj sun soe clarkson edu rather have bottle front than frontal lobotomy anon don want pickle dod tep ride free etcetera
rec.motorcycles	why wanted police officers answer posting just one little thing last year mid december cop pulled over was about centigrade and just started snowing you are right live canada the cop checked license insurance ownership looked frozen nose and fingers told watch the speed limit more closely and entering his cruiser told was doing instead didn ticket and really slowed down after that already mentioned started snow safe riding stefan stefan ruhl german exchange student come out honda you can get running
rec.motorcycles	touring the southwest kim fatcity cts com kim sharpe writes few are touring sothwest utah mid june see the canyons any you have some helpful hints where stay things see avoid plans are see bryce zion arches the grand close that point additional trip required any help would nice thank you for your support spring break went through the four corners area and back the most beautiful stop made was utah the needles overlook though this bit further east than where you appear going highly recommend imho far more beautiful than the grand canyon was not well marked but was one few paved roads off was heading north from monticello order get the right place should clarify that the needles overlook and not the recreation area heading north from monticello the second turnoff and may have been marked the anticline overlook anticline overlook about dirt this matters you miles past the needles overlook the road out the overlook paved and reasonably maintained ran about mph looking out from the overlook was like being god and looking down the world isn too far out your way you should see dan martin can stand this proliferation paperwork martind spot its useless fight the forms you got kill the people producing them colorado edu vladimir kabaidze soviet plant manager
rec.motorcycles	how buy first bike etc bclarke galaxy gov writes there have been lot posts lately about wanna buy first bike gsxr cbr fzr good bike learn etc think going put together faq buying new bike ravi used one all the time bruce clarke environment mail bclarke galaxy gov make that buying first bike new bike not generally good first bike dean woodward you want step into world dean fringe rain com socio psychotic state bliss virago guns roses world dod
rec.motorcycles	kinder gentler bmw mailing list rbp netcom com bob pasker writes joe sorry you felt was pissing your list disparagement was intended and would most interested know what said that made you feel that way you didn meant pissing like boxer owners piss bike owners and bike owners piss boxer owners and forth the end nothing more than owner ribbing disparagement was received returned intentionally sorry bout the lack joe senner joe rider cactus org bmw mailing list bmw rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org
rec.motorcycles	back breaker near hit article snz morgan demon tony morgan demon writes why you let such brain dead idiots drive the because unlike the passing the average driving test over here usually only requires pulse single digit every state controls their own licensing requirements possible that there test out there that actually requires some driving skills but doubt blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd com
rec.motorcycles	maxima chain wax and mail order article apr dsd com bgardner pebbles com blaine gardner writes article apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes try the vfr but goddamn competition accessories hasn mailed order yet hell only been two weeks and was ordering some pretty bizzare stuff like clear face sheild and can chain wax bastards for what worth got can three days from chaparral that ups ground from ymmv the stuff seems work and doesn just called them and they said the order went out the they putting ups tracer watch waiting for home tonight dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington bedford kotnml kotb the road shepherd and shall not stop vfr sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited
rec.motorcycles	was little hasty article pbu sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes driving while impared allows for prosecution drivers under the influence variety drugs shame there law against driving while stupid after little while would prevent all kinds accidents dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington bedford kotnml kotb the road shepherd and shall not stop vfr sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited
rec.motorcycles	touring the southwest article fatcity cts com kim fatcity cts com kim sharpe writes few are touring sothwest utah mid june see the canyons any you have some helpful hints where stay things see avoid plans are see bryce zion arches the grand close that point additional trip required well closer bryce than bryce arches spend lot time studying the maps there lot you can get there from here that area you might want hit the grand canyon the way from california loop around canyonlands moab arches and then back down towards bryce zion the way home make sure you ride between capitol reef and bryce been number top roads lists nice booklet detailing lot interesting paved byways and unpaved backways roads can ordered from the utah travel council think you can also get state map from them just for asking utah byways and backways utah travel council council hall capitol hill salt lake city blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd com
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies article snz morgan demon tony morgan demon writes article apr megatek com randy megatek com writes when did you out and change the laws physics according some numbers used see bandied around shaft drive the order efficient while chain drive closer seems that this makes chain drive more efficient hmmmmm well maintained chains running oil without those little rubber rings cause frictional losses might reach efficiency the average open the dust ring motorcycle chain probably has difficult job making efficient how about some sources for all these numbers this more stuff that everybody knows blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd com
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies stafford stafford winona msus edu stafford vax winona msus edu john stafford writes apr gmt xlyx vax cit cornell edu said possible wheelie motorcycle with shaft drive yes but the rear wheel comes off the ground not the front see just hops into the air figure know the roads there minnesota are pretty bad but doubt that they are that bad never realy tried watch back tyre but maxim will pull the front wheel off the ground pop the clutch admittedly easier with someone back maybe that what keeps the rear tyre down john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply eerik villberg people for the eerik iastate edu eating harris street tasty ames animals
rec.motorcycles	max handling request article tcora gator pica army mil tcora pica army mil tom coradeschi writes jearls tekig pen tek com jeffrey david earls wrote ntuvax ntu writes hello there can anyone who has handson experience riding the yamaha max pls kindly comment its handling vmax racing horror story deleted portland international raceway now for max max handling ferget actually wera racer william lumsden considered running vmax superstock took out talladega gpr for practice day and really annoyed the riders they usually got caught behind sideways vmax the corners and they passed him going blow down the straight usually wobbling needless say since was seconds faster decided against the vmax too bad ray hixon wera expert single minded guy
rec.motorcycles	help adjust tappits sheppamj sun soe clarkson edu matthew sheppard writes all our local experts say the tappits that need some adjusting soon attempt that would like any advice anyone had this the same adjusting the shims between cam and valve have the same question you buy full set shims before starting the adjustment process you calculate the shims you need and then run off the dealer the cage see the right shims are stock obviously the latter would cheaper what shims cost but are measurements the shim need reliable enough buy only the indicated shims chris christopher karras internet cgkarras world std com
rec.motorcycles	dod confessional article apr bnr mbeaving bnr writes can help myself tried rational look the other way but everytime happens its uncontrollable hate pre motorcycles hah newbie bait everyone knows the first motorcycle wasn built until there were pre motorcycles first thought was phase though would get used them didn happen tried gazing and customs but each time sadistically pictured them being hurled off large precipice also picture swarm german tourists cheering and taking holiday snaps but can figure that part out you been watching too much northern exposure what everytime read sig containing some spoked wheel wonder shudder and feel pity that the poor soul has suffered enough why because our wheels are repairable imagine the owner scrapping out his her living discarded maytag refridgerator box tucked next their humph obviously more bait everyone knows you don discard maytag boxes even after they become uninhabitable they make great poor boy mechanic creeper whazzat hoping for some deliverance okay let hear you squeal like pig had the past loathed the milwaukee machine but can actually begin understand some the preaching there must hope beware fanatical preaching lest the residents waco texas set huge salad bar your honor jonathan quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf gleep naperville there nothing quite like the pitter patter little feet followed the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	moa members another letter read article apr msstate edu vech msstate edu craig vechorik writes moa ers you read think for yourself trust you know who cecil king and that was editor befor don douglass and pres candidate let you draw your own conclusions don know who either but think see your problem you got cecil king and don douglass what you need don king and cecil adams maybe rodney king and beanie cecil jonathan quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf gleep naperville there nothing quite like the pitter patter little feet followed the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	black reflector tape few months ago one the the motorcycle mags there was article that mentioned reflector tape that was supposed available thru bmw the idea was that the tape would look black sunlight and reflect other colors night headlights sounded like nice way add nighttime visibility without turning the bike into carnival attraction talked the local bmw dealer about this was told that the only thing had heard about this kind reflector was being used coming line bmw clothing rainsuits wasn aware anything regarding self applied tape has anyone come across this from bmw any other source thanks steve bunis sun microsystems dod itasca ama
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies xlyx vax cit cornell edu writes possible wheelie motorcycle with shaft drive yes erik astrup afm dod cbr cbr concours ninja this one goes eleven nigel tufnel lead guitar spinal tap
rec.motorcycles	maxima chain wax article drutx att com pms torreys att com paul smith writes article rmugele apr oasun oracle com rmugele oracle com robert mugele writes tried unsuccessfully locate place that sells maxima chain wax the dallas area does anyone know retail outlet for this area mail order purveyor anywhere the dallas area just bought can for best friend bike xlh mines got belt hahahahaha for with tax bates discount cycle parts the southbound service road farmers branch just couple miles north the interchange they have about dozen cans left neal howard xlh dod computrac inc richardson doh neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer opinions are mine not computrac let learn dream gentlemen and then perhaps shall learn the truth august kekule
rec.motorcycles	why wanted police officers answer posting article apr iscnvx lmsc lockheed com jrlaf sgi msd lmsc lockheed com laferriere writes stuff deleted questions ask typical cop regards pulling over someone minor moving violation rolling stop unsignaled lane change ish mph over speed limit etc minor you put unsignalled lane change minor category now know who these guys are jeff goss
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies article snz morgan demon tony morgan demon tony kidson writes well maintained chains running oil without those little rubber rings cause frictional losses might reach efficiency the average open the dust ring motorcycle chain probably has difficult job making efficient the produced engine watts kilowatts being dumped into leetle tiny rings that watts per ring seems little hot doncha think chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	need advice for riding with someone pillion one the reasons originally liked current guythingy much was becase had bmw sigh that music ears after all the complaining lois did about the seat bmw the best passengers are those which are unobtrusive echo the movements and lean your rider look over the shoulder thats most comfortable but during turns look over the shoulder the inside the turn found that the phrase sack potatoes works pretty well describing passenger how should act switch your hands the guardrail stretch your shoulders but sure and squeeze your thighs while you doing your rider knows you still there the guard rail isn safe holding onto your rider long ride with girlfriend nancy would notice her drifting off every often were droning down highway probably wouldn have been aware this she hadn been the habit squeezing butt with her knees hold good advice mellon mellon ncd com uunet lupine mellon member the league for programming freedom find out how software patents may cost you your right program contact lpf uunet net
rec.motorcycles	yamaha locks was cobra lock article apr hemlock cray com ant palm cray com tony jones writes has anyone any experience with the new yamaha cyclelok oooo hope nothing like had seca turbo had locked the back wheel and forgot about when took off heard clunk but just drove away leaving the lock broken the ground real security action the beav mike beavington dod sabre mbeaving bnr employer has idea what talking about
rec.motorcycles	help adjust tappits christopher karras cgkarras world std com wrote this the same adjusting the shims between cam and valve have the same question you buy full set shims before starting the adjustment process you calculate the shims you need and then run off the dealer the cage see the right shims are stock obviously the latter would cheaper what shims cost but are measurements the shim need reliable enough buy only the indicated shims only buy what you need would cost lot buy full set and you won ever use most them have had good luck with the calculation method have never had change more than one size increment time never needed change larger than the next size down usually down they cost few each for yamaha frank ball frankb sad com work hewlett packard fax home valley house drive seca rohnert park wug law ama dod the nra
rec.motorcycles	good reasons wave each other article mavenry altcit eskimo com maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes waving other bikers makes more sense than just hey how going nice meet you the road have good ride keeps you the habit watching really carefully for bikes when you cage this good thing has anyone while driving cage ever waved bikers get the urge but never actually done bike like jody levine dod got you can you jody levine hydro ride toronto ontario canada let see how many posts takes for someone selectively quote this article
rec.motorcycles	good reasons wave each other article arturo infmx arturo informix com arturo vega writes has anyone else ever caught themselves waving oncoming motorcycle riders while car not bike because its broken and walkin really the way should kyle cassidy cassidy rowan edu fire all your guns once dod
rec.motorcycles	looking for movies bikes article csundh ursa csundh ursa calvin edu charles sundheim writes assembling info for film criticism class final project man every time this thread comes start jumping and down screaming easy wheels easy wheels but date seems like the only one who ever seen this absolutely hysterical basic plot this reporter searching for ring babysnatchers blow off the road very hot gang babe bikers leather rescued from his wrecked car the desert xtian gospal biker band lead viet nam vet with steel plate his head that gives him visions from time time they soon discover that the gang babes kidnapping children raised wolves the reasoning behind this complex and they set out stop them and restore justice and order the world one the funniest movies have ever seen life kyle cassidy cassidy rowan edu fire all your guns once dod
rec.motorcycles	female looking for riding buddy previous article deb ccc amdahl com david ben jamin says single white female looking for man with motorcycle share fun trips from days more have honda magna and riding life but hard find people ride with this son account please respond this address for more info phone number etc thanks don need sig you don mention your riding area you the eastern part ontario canada may able help love day runs and more more info needed lloyd stallion dod carr freenet carleton munster mail carr uranus dgrc doc ontario ham fhc osq eon
rec.motorcycles	maxima chain wax article apr research nec com behanna syl nec com chris behanna writes spray the chain wax onto the rollers and sideplates occassionally and rust will not problem did regularly and was michael michael nelson cbr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod
rec.motorcycles	need your advice new rider any information that any you could give would greatly appreciated just send the reply account you like back the net chris melching cjmelching leo bsuvc bsu edu vivid imagination sez this almost close enuff mail cjmelching leo bsuvc bsu edu users neal dod faq dod but naw neal howard xlh dod computrac inc richardson doh neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer opinions are mine not computrac let learn dream gentlemen and then perhaps shall learn the truth august kekule
rec.motorcycles	your opinion and what means article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes article wduw nmrdc nmrdc nnmc navy mil dsc jfs nmrdc nmrdc nnmc navy mil jim small writes article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes stuff deleted real honest goodness flamewar fired here and even has some relevance motorcycling amazing neal howard xlh dod computrac inc richardson doh neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer opinions are mine not computrac let learn dream gentlemen and then perhaps shall learn the truth august kekule
rec.motorcycles	looking for movies bikes what about grease arun cool rider noe there look your eyes like black holes the sky shine you crazy diamonds
rec.motorcycles	yamaha locks was cobra lock any lock including the kyptonite utypes are easy break into the person has the proper supplies and motivation minutes and your bike gone would glad explain but dont want contribute any unlawful activities especially since have bike that would hate see ripped off such trival tactic warning lock alone safe deterent against theft the thief doesnt need locksmith lock picker walk away with your property personally think motion alarms combination lock this type the way fact you are that concerned bill
rec.motorcycles	good reasons wave each other mbeaving bnr michael beavington writes the down side that when cage have numerous occasions slammed hand into the rolled window effort wave passing biker shouldn this the dwi thread
rec.motorcycles	dogs heathman ncsa uiuc edu michael heathman writes professionals who train guard dogs when polled gave themselves chance survival tackling trained dog unarmed trained guard dog not trifled with untrained mutt may another story course they say that they trying sell their services
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies article apr colorado edu laszlo eclipse colorado edu laszlo nemeth writes article wrs wslack uucp wrs wslack uucp bill slack writes various posts about shafties can wheelies mike imposible due the shaft effect the centripital effects the rotating shaft counteract any tendency for the front wheel lift off the ground good point john buddy mine told that same thing when had bmw dumped the clutch rpm hey ito nly revved and you know what was right folks the shaft doesn have diddleysquatpoop with can get the front wheel off the ground ferchrissake you may have been able bounce the front but not actually wheelie see the shaft effect unloads the rear susspension and effectivly loads the front this why shaft bike should accelerate starts scraping corner laz sorry contradictory but had nighthawk degress with the horizon and wasn banked over turn the hard part getting the front off the ground rev about drop the clutch even harder keeping from coming far use the back brake well the throttle once its wheelie just like any other bike ethan ethan bowerman dod nighthawk hey who cuts yer hair man nothing clears the mind quite cheech and chong like maxed out tach and closed mouth contains feet buried speedometer unknown
rec.motorcycles	was little hasty article jnmoyne moustic lbl gov jnmoyne lbl gov jean noel moyne writes what does dwi stand for dancing with idjits ray shea they wound like very effective method unisql inc leah unisql ray utexas edu some days miss boon real bad dod team twinkie hawk
rec.motorcycles	point for helmet law point for article prcrs prc com terry prcrs prc com terry cunningham writes article apr rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda writes banning motorcycles not actually reasonable only reasonable the eyes misinformed and misunderstanding public conversely your attitude could seem blind and apathetic know law either the books proposed that bans motorcycles from any place that want motorcycles are not allowed mile drive pebble beach jolly roger
rec.motorcycles	cagers who thunk article apr cua edu wendel cua edu writes who gets credit for the perfectly descriptive name cagers also does anybody know when the term was first used thanks yesterday seriously countess ada lovelace gets the credit she first used the late her bike the spokeless wonder jack waters dod don fear the thief the night its the one that comes the afternoon when still asleep that worry about
rec.motorcycles	assorted ranting grr hate the bastard who picked the weather for today went visit friend overnight about minute ride rode after work only minor drizzing for the last minutes the ride rest the ride was very zen got this morning needed home and get some disks stuff work her computers with rainy all hell soaked and cold the time got home since didn have another set thermals which were dry said heck with and drove cage back and behold those funny blue clouds were the sky and this warm yellow thing haven seen quite awhile showed when was minutes into the trip and cage joy happily right hand mirror finally showed the dealer dropped the bike when first got put emgo replacement mirror hated the entire time that thing was bike because couldn see damned thing through plus flat instead convex like the stock mirrors you get narrow angle wobbly blur and got replacement windshield for fairing dropped the original and chipped the front edge cosmetic but annoying spent half hour happily unscrewing things and replacing them this afternoon bout the only thing still hate about the bike the damned cell flashlight headlight has anyone seen good source for watt halogen passing lights since the charging system the can handle continuous use halogen headlight was thinking about putting couple passing lights that would give lighting for the rare night riding but wouldn drain the battery during normal use chiefly day trips and commuting work and back
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies xlyx vax cit cornell edu mike terry asks possible wheelie motorcycle with shaft drive yfn ysu edu john daker replies mike imposible due the shaft effect the centripital effects the rotating shaft counteract any tendency for the front wheel lift off the ground ugh who gave you guys your login names blech john obviously never saw ride buddy known torque monster could pull the most beautiful skyshots with that bike unfortunately the owner saw one once never get ride again bill bill leavitt cbx white lightning suzibago leavitt umd edu little honda lone star sick leave dod ama icoa nia impala convertible the incredible hulk others hmmm thought bore and stroke was the technique michael bain
rec.motorcycles	where put your helmet article apr hydro jlevine hydro jody levine writes article uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes another good place for your helmet your mirror this dents and dings the liner sometimes quite bit bike like jody levine dod got you can you jody levine hydro ride toronto ontario canada also works great put under your kickstand those really hot days when the tar gets really soft jim rags rye senior technical support analyst harley davidson rye crayamid cray com cray research inc mpls you going something tonight that you sorry for tomorrow morning sleep late henny youngman opinions are mine and only mine but for small fee you may rent them
rec.motorcycles	your opinion and what means mon you guys motorcycles booze don mix nuff said bruce clarke environment mail bclarke galaxy gov
rec.motorcycles	why wanted police officers answer posting csundh ursa calvin edu charles sundheim writes some potentially cool story stuff here share the details how get verbal warning for simple first has the first really nice riding day spring the bike back together again and are you grab all your gear put and fill the tank with octane premium better head out ames there road that leads the little town gilbert gilbert has one stop light that tells you something having just gotten the bike back together thought take for short ride and check things out heading out town went into the twisties slow pace just under the speed limit and started leaning around the pace quickened everything felt just right finally the road straightened and was ready for bit speed grab third gear open her roughly mph grab fourth gear look much the bike you can and fail notice state trooper following quarter mile behind twist the throttle like fool grab fifth gear and see just how well she been put back together according radar noticed the front fender was flexing bit thus slowed pulled off the road removed helmet and gloves unslung the took kit was carrying fanny pack and was just starting tighten that fender when the trooper pulled all hot and flustered have you any idea how fast you were going not precisely was paying attention the bike and road not the instruments just got her back together last night and just out here testing her out before ride traffic radar says you were over mph care tell why shouldn give you ticket because was testing the motorcycle away from population and traffic strait and flat road while wearing all the protective gear that safety demands note wasn quite that eloquent say what kind bike that anyway was eloquent cafe racer replica honda rat bike yeah haven had bike out the garage years compare riding stories pack toolkit having tightened that fender why were you out here figure every other idiot the road going look right through the bike fails somehow mph zone dead holds out here then know will work right traffic this evvery year when rebuild her not any more you find better place than highway those speeds ever catch you speeding highway again going nail you for everything possibly can now get out sight before write you ticket yes officer and kid keep your eyes open out there drives off and that nut shell how get warning for don guarantee that will work for you but worked for dan sorenson dod dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what read not what say don blame them usenet post exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies course the only people who seem acting smug now probably have chain final drive which all know less efficient and has higher maintenance and probably didn know the answer the start the thread anyway have laz solemn assurance that she was serious with the only paralevers can pull true wheelies assertion whatever the hell that means doug rinckes drinckes tssc wlg nec new zealand tssc ltd bmw bmw indian doug don know what school thought your from but chain drive are much more efficient than shafties end story period but will give you that shafties are much less maintenance intensive ethan ethan bowerman dod nighthawk hey who cuts yer hair man nothing clears the mind quite cheech and chong like maxed out tach and closed mouth contains feet buried speedometer unknown
rec.motorcycles	countersteering sans hands article apr cornell edu karr cornell edu david karr writes article clarke bdrc com clarke bdrc com richard clarke writes how steer when hands aren the bars open budweiser left hand camel cigarette the right feet allowed lean and the bike turns countersteering the bars would turn only toward the direction turn hands steering just case the original poster was looking for serious answer supply one yes even when steering hands you something quite similar countersteering basically turn left you quick wiggle the bike the right first causing counteracting lean occur the left lot more difficult motorcycle than bicycle though because the extra weight motorcycle heavy maybe yous isn david
rec.motorcycles	need advice for riding with someone pillion article dsc well rwert well wrote need some advice having someone ride pillion with ninja this will the the first time taken anyone for extended ride read farther than around the block riding some twisty fairly bumpy roads the mines road hamilton loop for you bay areans this person lbs and fairly small don see weight too much problem but what sort advice should give her before fiancee and quite bit sporty riding tell you what found and the systems worked out starts accelerate much slower than usual tough for the rider judge how scary fast acceleration because holding onto something and leaning forward remember this turns have her lean forward and the same angle you normally this means she isn leaning all very disconcerting leaned over and have your passenger leaning that they sitting straight much balance lost and this can dangerous slowing and stopping much slower than usual again tough for the rider judge how scary fast deceleration because holding onto something and leaning forward however you figure out fast because braking too fast will shove the passenger forward into you which shoves you into the tank inopportune location generally have the passenger keep her knees against you and the bike not out wide this helps balance and gives her somegrip when you passenger fear she will squeeze her knees against you normally this means slow down and now turning she leans with but what else are there traditional signals for slow down faster hafta pee etc only have couple signals slow down her either tapping the back slapping helmet with all her might depends the urgency the matter turn here done her pointing the direction exit this also the sign for cool look that hafta pee the same sign turn here hungry the same sign faster usually done her jumping and down her pegs glee usually see slow down more often than faster really want this positive experience for both mainly that she want with again any help will appreciated the best thing before the ride talk riding buddy and pillion his her bike incredibly frustrating because you almost control now multiply that feeling times ten because you rider know what your bike will and your passenger will likely feel you about scrape hard parts all the time lock the brakes any moment careening off the edge volcanic mountain etc pillioning yourself good training take somebody your pillion pad also remember that much more draining and tiring ride than yourself because you concentrating much more and the zen the moment less remember this pat loughery patlo microsoft com seattle dod ama vme dioc ksi vfr nighthawk seca turbo for sale
rec.motorcycles	need advice for riding with someone pillion article dsc well rwert well bob wert writes need some advice having someone ride pillion with ninja this will the the first time taken anyone for extended ride read farther than around the block riding some twisty fairly bumpy roads the mines road hamilton loop for you bay areans unless she really adventurous not take her this route for her first extended ride that kinda like taking someone show way speed star competition their first skydive this person lbs and fairly small don see weight too much problem but what sort advice should give her before want her hold onto rather than the grab rail out back and heard that she should look over shoulder the direction turning she leans with but what else are there traditional the ninja has adjustable suspension adjust stiffer setting you don bottom out bumpy curves tell her the cardinal rules are never ever ever ever put her feet down not when you stop stop sign not when she thinks you gonna crash never keep them the pegs until you tell her get off the bike she hold onto your waist she should hold tightly enough that she won slide off the bike you twist the throttle bit and added bonus for you here she should keep close your butt possible quick stops don make her slide into you and knock your balls onto the gas tank you decide how best word this just stay perpendicular the bike straight the seat don lean your body into curves just with the bike and stay perpendicular don look over your shoulder remember all times that you have passenger the back that means don pop the clutch and try corner and stop smoother than usual aware that you jump the brake you going have the equivalent dead weight crashing into you from behind prepared for that make sure she pisses before the ride even she says she doesn have anti women stuff here have tiny bladder myself remind her look around while you riding point things interest makes the ride more enjoyable her she won get focused just looking the back your helmet and gives her ample excuse squeeze you show she saw what you pointed wife and tried the msf recommended look over the rider shoulder curves bit and just didn work the timing her weight shift was unpredictable especially the maxim because unlike the ninja the upright riding position really restricts the pillion view the road ahead next time had her just remain perpendicular the bike and could hardly tell there was someone else the bike curves and she weighs substantially over lbs curtis jackson cjackson adobe com hawk maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there justification for taking away individuals freedom the guise public safety thomas jefferson
rec.motorcycles	bonding with caged cop akelley oracle uucp alyn kelley writes but drove past actually turned all the way around his car seat see had noticed nodded him and smiled can for the life figure out why was friendly the dod license plate frame cops really like either that mistook you for one his friends possibly off duty cop dave need your clothes your boots and your motorcycle arnold schwarzenegger
rec.motorcycles	looking for movies bikes knight riders has got one the silliest movies ever seen curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov sabre meddle not the afairs wizards for makes them soggy and hard light
rec.motorcycles	good reasons wave each other article apr hydro jlevine hydro jody levine writes has anyone while driving cage ever waved bikers get the urge but never actually done did once with biker girlfriend the car and she told that was stupid the rider wouldn know why was waving she long gone let see how many posts takes for someone selectively quote this article one curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov sabre meddle not the afairs wizards for makes them soggy and hard light
rec.motorcycles	what octane jnmoyne lbl gov jean noel moyne writes how you know what kind gas buy depending the compression ratio your engine heard but what kind gas goes for what kind compression asking this because used put hawk and the other day changed because wanted see there was difference and don know being subjective what but seems like the bike runs better run your bike the lowest octane that will run smoothly higher octane fuel not better than lower octane gas pick the last american roadracing magazine there short article there about octane and the misconceptions many people make about the subject look your owners manual believe states just fine erik astrup afm dod cbr cbr concours ninja this one goes eleven nigel tufnel lead guitar spinal tap
rec.motorcycles	bra bra brazing was for johs dhhalden old nick the little devil wibbles tsk tsk tsk another newbie bites the dust they learn newbie slap yer credentials the table pete that show him terribly sorry and you damned well should young whipper snapper wet kippers ten paces there any repeat this sort thing now keeping with the grand tradition wreck moto let mutate take your partners the hand tuesday morning spent couple hours when should have been working with torch brazing bits scrap metal over the biggest holes yamadog exhaust pipes mazin what you can with couple cells and three volt bulb stuck some gun gum into the smaller holes and bunged the pipes back onto the bike last night the way home when bloody behold the sodding thing starts blowing again check out and the gas escaping from around the clamp holding the number two pipe into the port far can see being somewhat hole calcutta the time the nuts are still there stop that bloody sniggering you the back but the pipe bit loose this morning out the bike and pull out the socket set tighten nuts somebody give that spotty kid the back good slap round the back the head and bloody behold bloody gen find that the outer skin the pipe has separated from the inner sleeve right the clamp mating bevel stuff bit baked beanz can and bit more holts very best gun gum and come work late again that can ask the oracle will brazed joint hold that close the exhaust port anybody tried and anybody can tell what the differences are between and brazing rod made gaz yup the camping folks surprised the marmalade outa too that place just off the isle wight eternally grateful twenty sodding quid for two rods and don even know what buying bloody kanji john little gaijin japan sun com sun microsystems atsugi japan
rec.motorcycles	owners tankbag suggestions wanted article apr hydro jlevine hydro jody levine writes the nelson rigg bag has and the side ones can used not depending the load using just the three super convenient and the extra two are great for carrying beer concentrate bricks reports written overpaid consultants quit keeping suspense who sells this remarkable bag later chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nec com baby bike disclaimer now why would nec needs name agree with any this anyway was raised pack wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	yamaha maxim for sale denver area message posted for roomate bike good condition black has miles mag wheels front disk rear drum good front tire new back tire ring chain new battery new starter and has that laid back look bike runs real strong with all four carbs giving their best buyer gets cover all weather lockable heatproof tank bag non magnetic can take disks along otherwise cargo net manual bike has origional tool kit matching yamaha lock asking best offer would like sell this soon please call voice ack with any questions john silvia area home work
rec.motorcycles	type spesifications vfr etc rec motorcycles cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes article srgenprp com frankb sad com frank ball writes honda designates engine street bike for for twin how about honda hawk twin but not called that because they took the old engine and stepped make the plant for the hawk new twin does that only fly for microsoft new technology been this too long today cheers victor dances with hawks johnson
rec.motorcycles	first bike and wheelies rec motorcycles speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes buy old dirt bike find vacant field get owners permission and learn the basics when your done sell trash the bike and move the street speedy you got this all wrong when you done buy better dirt bike body armor decent boots and forget about the weenie street riding jeff deeney dod nctr shamu jld hpfcla com ama cohvco llamaha dirt bike riding perfectly safe have the scars prove
rec.motorcycles	power loss under load honda have honda which for most purposes runs well however expereince severe power drop cruising speeds under load that mild upgrade mph lucky can hold speed try add throttle much past rpm power drops drastically put simply under load the engine won rev past rpm the top third half the throttle range dead standing still the engine runs fine red line other phenomenology about the point that power loss kicks the engine becomes little wavery that steady throttle the engine speed goes and down slightly the bike has about miles and good tune least until starts balk would appreciate any suggestions what ailing the poor beast thoughts run toward clogged jets and improper spark advance hoping not something more drastic since the bike not really worth the hassle any major engine work thanks britt park britt iris stanford edu
rec.motorcycles	help adjust tappits article snz morgan demon tony morgan demon tony kidson wrote article jcn lactose rice edu jcn rice edu writes and speaking shims why would the clearance the valves get smaller need the use thinner shim valve seat wear okay okay forgot about that sheeesh jeff nichols rice university
rec.motorcycles	any xxxx mean police officers read this stuff article apr iscnvx lmsc lockheed com jrlaf sgi msd lmsc lockheed com laferriere writes was just wondering there were any law officers that read this have several questions would like ask pertaining motorcycles and cops and please don say get vehicle code your local station obvious things like that questions would not found those places nor answered face face with real live the flesh cop your brother had friend who had cousin whos father was cop etc don bother writing thanks well here goes after lurking for long time announce myself yes the enemy the enemy that also happens ride arrest red vfr bike history this endears the dod honda high school kawasaki klr honda sabre cornering committee honda hawk proctologists designed this bike vfr entertain questions but answers will reflect georgia law and may not apply your state anyone got nomex suit for sale
rec.motorcycles	traffic morons article stafford stafford winona msus edu stafford vax winona msus edu john stafford writes article shd athena uga edu ahatcher athena uga edu allan hatcher wrote you can make citizens arrest anything but felony not sure that true let rephrase you can file complaint which will bring the person into court understand citizens arrest does not have the physical detention the person think just found the difference between citizens arrest physical detention suspect and report warrant better now john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	test ignore ignore
rec.motorcycles	the best times the worst times article txd able mkt com com txd esd com com tom dietrich writes mtrost convex com matthew trost writes apr ttinews tti com paulb harley tti com paul blumstein writes turned out screw unscrewed inside mikuni you better check all the screws that carb before you suck one into jug and munge piston valve seen happen before what mikuni going through the exploded view the flatslide the sport the round slide spike and the monster old norton mind and can for the life see screw any them that came loose could get into jug when they explode all the screws fly away chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	back breaker near hit article menudo edu inde rosie edu writes understand why you theoretically stop far behind car but can you really actuality avoid such incident suggestions possible split lanes even you don get all the way the head the line least you won rear ended always worry more when the lane the front the line and one behind then you have keep eye your mirrors also get ready pull hard right just case mike disclaimer these opiini damn exit quitbye ctrlaltdel logout save quit quit zzzzzz man help helpquit man help help exit quit ctrlshftdel hey what does stop
rec.motorcycles	vfr owners get hidden feature article world std com daved world std com dave dorfman writes well the actual ergonomics the switch make appear position switch but sure enough deam expected when you balance the toggle switch the center position both the high and low beams this provides very nice light coverage the road hmmmm noticed sometime ago that could the same virago and since don read many schematics didn really think aobut too much yes does provide excellent coverage but figured would probably draw little too much current also figured that was overlapped just prevent blank spot headlight are you saying that these switches are designed for the combination jay hamillton with more chrome than harley hamiltoj handel colostate edu time change the oil again dod and kotcm
rec.motorcycles	zipper repairs was tankbag article carlp frigg carlp frigg isc com carl paukstis writes bgardner pebbles com blaine gardner writes yep works like charm had the same problem after about years constant use and was thinking seeing how much eclipse would want install new zipper but someone think was chuck karish suggested try that trick took couple tries get the right amount squish but been fine for about years since squished should work for any the nylon coil type zippers otoh tried this concord jacket thursday night really just made tiny adjustment type squeeze really was your zipper the nylon coil type the kind with molded plastic teeth only tried the coiled nylon type and doesn take much squish fix the problem found was overdoing broken parts but the zipper was too hard pull after spreading the zipper pull jaws again tried with vice grips not the usual grip death technique adjusted the closed vice grips they were snug the zipper jaws then released them and tightened the adjusting screw bit couple iterations and had just the right amount zipper squish result now know that noplace spokane will even consider trying repair broken zipper closer thingy which must part which needs tool install had two zipper pulls fail aerostich suit actually the accessory ellipse and they sent few replacement pulls free charge don know what brand zippers uses but parts are available for ykk plastic zippers replacement was pretty simple just break and remove the plastic knob the top the zipper that keeps the pull from coming off the top end slide the new zipper pull then crimp vice grips again replacement zipper stop you might try fabric stores such and see they sell replacement parts for what worth the coil type zippers the eclipse tankbag are also ykk blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd com
rec.motorcycles	dogs article apr acs ucalgary parr acs ucalgary charles parr writes article pntm cbnewsj att com car cbnewsj att com charles rogers writes this tactic depends for its effectiveness the dog conformance psychological norm that may not actually apply particular dog tried with some success before but won work charlie manson dog one that really really stupid large irish setter taught this yard apparently his territory one day sure was playing game with the game was probably kill the very angry neighbor before can dispense the terrible punishment what dog weighs maybe max you can handle were having problem with instability the universal gravitational constant that day the closer got those exposed fangs still dripping doubt with the viscera the last foolhardy experimenter cum canine psychology the bigger and heavier the dog appeared become also recall that the distribution the one five pound jaw teeth operated two muscles driven ounce brain possessing instinctual heuristic composed equal parts bloodlust and ravening hunger the other course dog poop but that varies all over the place the dog deposits regularly the painstakingly manicured and tended lawns the dog owner neighbors whilst continuously replenishing its inexhaustible supply doubt consuming the likes folks like you have presume thumbs grapple with and tear head off very thought the time but looked down these once formidable instruments mayhem realized they had become weak and atrophied too many sedentary hours tapping away ergonomically correct crt keyboard there was only one option left reached down the toolbox near car and grasped craftsman torque wrench surely the bludgeon dire necessity ever there was one amazement and confusion the setter started shaking and rolling the grass then leapt its feet and vanished down the street still quivering and occasionally looking back seven one blow exclaimed flexing new found biceps and brandishing terrible weapon invincibility stalked the now secure environs domicile was only later that found out what the dog apparently knew all along the wrench was defective would longer measure torque accurately and sears wouldn fix replace what had interpreted fear and subservience were fact unmitigated hilarity and contempt sheesh even trained attack dog match for human have all the advantages exactly nobody can look quite silly can chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	countersteering know not know what the question article mjs zen sys uea mjs sys uea mike sixsmith writes lotto husc harvard edu jerry lotto writes the understanding and ability swerve was essentially absent among the accident involved riders the hurt study the average rider does not identify that countersteering alone provides the primary input effect motorcycle lean themselves even after many years practice would agree entirely with these three paragraphs but did the hurt study make any distinction between ability swerve and failure swerve most the accidents and near accidents that seen riders will almost always stand the brakes hard they dare simply because the instinct brake the face danger strong that over rides everything else hard braking and swerving tend mutually exclusive manouvres did hurt draw any conclusions which one generally preferable apparently the instinct brake the face danger isn strong the instinct freeze and nothing the face danger hurt found that surprising number accident involved motorcyclists hadn used their brakes all prior impact think the only way you ever use countersteering reliably and correctly crisis make the only conscious method directional control you ever use and practice constantly even when you have need any turning you follow down long straight and seem wiggling back and forth randomly suddenly without obvious need because practicing countersteering and avoiding imaginary obstacles directly path all this practice may indeed futile but have even milliseconds react the most familiar tactic available and hopefully the most automatic will countersteering the same logic applies braking with the front brake course chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	owners tankbag suggestions wanted bgardner pebbles com blaine gardner writes article apr ncsu edu martenm chess ncsu edu mar marten writes looking for new tank bag now and wondered you follow owners could make some suggestions what has and has not worked for you with the large flat gas tank imagine that almost anything would work personally quite happy with eclipse standard tank bag too even after bought the piece krauser set now and then puts them sale for bux clear out inventory but they never seem away they are the volkswagens tank bags guess btw the late paul neill showed trick with pair pliers that will extend their life considerably when the zipper starts separate behind the pull because age and wear squash the pull body with the pliers just bit tighten back would have tossed bag three years ago but this fixed and kept secure and reliable chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	fortune guzzler barred from bars article apr bnr npet bnr nick pettefar writes charles parr the tue apr gmt wibbled article apr bnr npet bnr nick pettefar writes satan rode bike would you stop help him only was true motorcyclist with the real riding attitude you probably are aware there sure fire rec moto test for this attribute god would ride vincent white lightning with rightous injection wear one piece leather suit with matching boots helmet and gloves why you think worried about road rash chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies article wrs wslack uucp wrs wslack uucp bill slack writes various posts about shafties can wheelies mike imposible due the shaft effect the centripital effects the rotating shaft counteract any tendency for the front wheel lift off the ground good point john buddy mine told that same thing when had bmw dumped the clutch rpm hey ito nly revved and you know what was right folks the shaft doesn have diddleysquatpoop with can get the front wheel off the ground ferchrissake well just when you think nothing will strike bmw key fob ostrich feather dipped silly putty and varnished solid lure somebody comes along and inhales right the lead swivel there dog going pretty difficult better worsen trolling scheme this low though chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	story article csundh ursa csundh ursa calvin edu charles sundheim writes lynn pacesetter com lynn hall writes lynn pacesetter com lynn hall writes description pretty rowdy sounding party and still wonder why they stereotype erc whacha mean ifin they whom ever they are want stereotype one that likes drink beer and watch lovely ladies display their beautiful bodies like that stereotype you were refering stereotype infer negative you noticed didn rape pillage burn down the town also left mucho bucks money with the town thinks the town likes least they said lynn hall nos bros they bein themfolk who tend compose fair piece the population bein the ones that regard bikers loud irresponsible irreverent reprobate rabble doesn sound like they attended though does fact riders need friends sounds lot like might have whole townfull from lynn description especially the same crowd gets invited back party some more year after year sure you didn rape and pillage relief know that you were such gentlemen but because you were not completely out hand you justify your lesser indescretions some pretty distorted thinking should say you seem one very few bent out shape over these lesser indiscretions the towns people aren ruffled the indiscretions and the partyers aren either maybe the indiscretions don amount anything more threatening damaging than harmless good natured rowdiness among consenting adults the only thing that really bothered about the description was the knee deep empty beer cans the street but maybe the town had plan deal with that since they helped set the party the first place lived there and the bikers previous visits had established record mutual cooperation and good intentions certainly rather they stick around and party than riding off into the night impaired and maybe get hurt killed sorry just noticed that you left mucho bucks money nevermind criticism was out line forgot that when one leaves mucho bucks money their behavior permissable perhaps even justified doesn hurt anyone and all the parties the party benefit and consider the entire activity benign and harmless then who needs permit justify you why you need that keep mind that themfolks are the ones that could give when biker gets killed when their elected officials institute further draconian legislation helmet laws gun controls etc the ones that don respect our rights the roads because not respect theirs all the rest the time ironically these particular townsfolk probably are the minority that don happen fit the stereotype you describe they developed friendly long term mutually beneficial relationship with group motorcyclists and aren burdened with ignorance the general population because need continue such need exists surely must come from within continue wear your stigma badge but the next time you are whining about them and the effect their values yours remember that was probably the behavior self righteous wusses like myself that kept them bay for this long well you got the self righteous wusses part right anyway chuck rogers car torreys att com you might have heard run with dangerous crowd ain too pretty ain too proud might laughin bit too loud but that never hurt one you know that only the good die young
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies article wayne orwig worwig atlantaga ncr com wayne orwig atlantaga ncr com wayne orwig writes possible wheelie motorcycle with shaft drive mike imposible due the shaft effect the centripital effects the rotating shaft counteract any tendency for the front wheel lift off the ground well last two motorcycles have been shaft driven and they will wheelie the rear gear does climb the ring gear and lift the rear which gives odd feel but still wheelies feeding frenzy tis april rec moto and the newbies are bitin catch all you want make more chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	paint jobs the article zen sys uea mjs sys uea mike sixsmith writes lisa alex com lisa rowlands writes can anyone recommend good place for reasonably priced bike paint jobs preferably but not essentially the london area try dream machine seen few examples their work and looks pretty good they the midlands though dream machine quality ain what used kinetic art did some great paint jobs bimotas don know they are still around roger collier sun com sun microsystems coventry england dod gsxr keeper the gsxr list
rec.motorcycles	please tell they not permenant scratches catherine barbara saum andrew cmu edu writes there way wax out dull finish minor scrathes while passngering fiance bandit hip pack rubbed against the tail and left nasty dull finish and teeny scratches there way get rid these buff them out wax them out help car accessory shops here sell stuff called cut which very fine cutting paste for paint and this will remove the dull finish and minor acratches will also remove all the traffic film and stuff that you probably don realise there and give your paintwork its original lustre and shine can sometimes react badly with metallic paint though try out carefully before going town with the stuff afterwards apply wax polish and all will well again btw don confuse cut with the cutting paste used for grinding valves the principle the same but the coarseness vastly different mike
rec.motorcycles	bmw frame set for sale for sale trade bmw frame and misc converted earles fork the package includes frame swingarm and earles fork final drive rear fender front fender large tank steel wheels laced spokes one new rim one used rim all brackets brake hdware footrests etc the colour scheme used the original bmw optional bristol grey items not painted are earles rigid section needs straightening this rigid section was bent when received not from being mounted the frame earles swingarm and the headlight shell have the paintthat was used and can finish the non painted items desired the striping was done holt design not included engine gearbox electrics seat this clean and tidy project the project was terminated due lack time and the engine that was used was transferred another project would prefer sell the package whole negotiable what can included the package will not separate any the painted items willing take spares trade mail any inquiries thanx carl
rec.motorcycles	buying suzuki advice wanted awhite ssc sas upenn edu andrew white writes hello net readers looking for little net advice got eye suzuki local dealer the bike got miles and looks mint condition dealer asking bit less than good price don have access blue book and too lazy the library dealer letting test ride this week blue book says wholesale retail sounds like you are getting pretty fair price assuming nice condition andrew white univ pennsylvania edu breath awhite mcneil sas upenn edu dod honda sabre nick coburn dod ama cbr cbr coburnn spot colorado edu
rec.motorcycles	touring the southwest bgardner pebbles com blaine gardner writes kim fatcity cts com kim sharpe writes few are touring sothwest utah mid june see the canyons any you have some helpful hints where stay things see avoid plans are see bryce zion arches the grand close that point additional trip required well closer bryce than bryce arches spend lot time studying the maps there lot you can get there from here that area you might want hit the grand canyon the way from california loop around canyonlands moab arches and then back down towards bryce zion the way home make sure you ride between capitol reef and bryce been number top roads lists highway great road sure stop the anasazi village museum near boulder creek interesting lifestyle the views dixie national forest are stunning karen black
rec.motorcycles	countersteering know not know what the question lotto laura harvard edu jerry lotto writes yes was specifically the ability understanding the technique which was absent how did hurt measure the ability riders swerve
rec.motorcycles	any police ossifers read this stuff article athena uga edu ahatcher athena uga edu allan hatcher writes well here goes after lurking for long time announce myself yes the enemy sorry allan but unless you happen the guy who watches while driving white toyota route between atsugi and hiratsuka you not even close being the enemy john little gaijin japan sun com sun microsystems atsugi japan
rec.motorcycles	black reflector tape got sample black reflector material maybe from conspicuity black but reflects silver the angle incidence shallow whoever was got from sold sells kits that fit bmw and other brands luggage and fenders don know what did with the sample the kits seemed too expensive recall henry prange biker reflectionologist physiology sch med blgtn dod bmwmoa gsi ride conv cage explorer cage all lie cheat and steal mostly little sometimes lot relax
rec.motorcycles	daytona article ytzo news dtc com jjb dtc com jim brewer writes russell had major backmarker problems before getting onto the banking and the backmarker was chuck graves believe
rec.motorcycles	why wanted police officers answer posting article viking ponderous iastate edu viking iastate edu dan sorenson writes how get verbal warning for poppy cock this story obviously complete fabrication and show you why ames there road that leads the little town this establishes that the story takes place iowa gilbert gilbert has one stop light that tells you something having just gotten the bike back together thought take for short ride and check things out heading out town went into the twisties slow pace just under the speed limit iowa come now dan how dumb you think are you could have least thrown llama tennis ball reference hell you didn even get the speed right dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington bedford kotnml kotb the road shepherd and shall not stop vfr sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited
rec.motorcycles	dod pins not article apr skcla monsanto com mpmena skcla monsanto com writes bad news right after placed our order the company upped its minimum order for manufacturing got under the wire with order pins but result the low number pins were relegated the get between other runs bin result seems that may another weeks how about the name and number the pin place would think that people calling bitch about why orders placed after ours are getting done first might speed things along dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington bedford kotnml kotb the road shepherd and shall not stop vfr sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited
rec.motorcycles	vfr owners get hidden feature article world std com daved world std com dave dorfman writes was enjoying lunch this saturday foodies milford with assortment other nedod folks when dean cookson yes has not left the country yet mentioned that the wiring diagram the vfr shows that the light switch three position switch does too the switch continuity section the wiring diagram looks something like this low high dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington bedford kotnml kotb the road shepherd and shall not stop vfr sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited
rec.motorcycles	wanted bmw insurance tips article apr infodev cam idb cus cam benham writes now the market for buying bmw the ideal would but interested here any for sale age not problem more interested good example without massive amount miles and one which has been well maintained intend keep well and for some time would also like know anyone has any sound advice regards insurance old licence for years accidents claims convictions old enough get bmw owners club insurance yet will have wait until next year ian future beemer owner article repeated due large amount other articles since sent
rec.motorcycles	maxima chain wax article itu myrddin imat com nelson seahunt imat com michael nelson writes article apr research nec com behanna syl nec com chris behanna writes spray the chain wax onto the rollers and sideplates occassionally and rust will not problem did regularly and was michael maybe you had accidentally sealed some water cleaned chain thoroughly took short ride dry off and heat bit and the paraffin sank deep into the rollers and formed good seal the outside rust but then again live tucson dod asphaug hindmost lpl arizona edu kawi zephyr erik asphaug bmw
rec.motorcycles	changing oil virago was yamaha honda opinions freenet carleton lloyd carr writes previous article phj remus rutgers edu says nuet pts mot com keith nuetzman writes the brake pedal pretty much decided never get this particular model unless someone else wants change the oil filter for compared the minute change was used for his honda this just design flaw oversight eyes sure don know what bike was being worked but sure wasn virago owned both the and and you can the filter change about mins and nothing has removed well watching several denizen dismantle laurie virago attempt change the oil the ride feed few years back was pretty funny site surely with the combined wisdom all these folks they weren doing things the hard way were they paul thompson apple computer
rec.motorcycles	back breaker near hit inde rosie edu writes hear screeching tires dart eyes mirrors and realize the moroon flying right behind panic pop clutch and stall the bike luckily the guy stops foot behind rear wheel understand why you theoretically stop far behind car but can you really actuality avoid such incident suggestions the experience you describe why don like sit with bike gear figure there chance that startled some way and stall bike and figure this more likely than the chance that unable escape some situation because the extra time needed put the bike gear concentrate avoiding situations rather than making split second evasive manuvers split lanes not the end the line unfortunately this not legal most the country can split perhaps there isn room then will stop near one side the lane have easy escape and leave bike gear until the next car has stopped watch mirrors the mean time make sure will whether really would have time move should car fail stop haven had find out yet some cars have annoying habbit racing behind you before braking heavilly can hard tell they are planning brake not summary position yourself for easy exit and then watch your mirrors until all clear paul thompson apple computer
rec.motorcycles	electricty article mimsy umd edu leavitt umd edu bill writes maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes trying figure out way put halogen beam are there any easy ways this slip bulb replacement the honda employed sealed beam which was not interchangeable with anything else far could ever tell owned two over the years and that was always one biggest nits not sure how far standardisation went but two bikes the and think the was able pop cibie insert directly into the original housing held those roughly shaped springs the inserts used halogen bulbs and were great although bill later indicates that this may too much drain your charging system ivan reid paul scherrer institute ivan cvax psi gsx you porsche pass dod
rec.motorcycles	first bike rec motorcycles james leo belliveau jbc andrew cmu edu writes serious motorcycle enthusiast without motorcycle and put bluntly sucks really would like some advice what would good starter bike for know one thing however need make first bike good one because buying second any time soon out the question specifically interested racing bikes cbr gsx know that this may sound kind crazy considering that never had bike before but responsible fast learner and love responsible and love believe that contradiction terms unless you really brave read reckless sport bike will way faster than you dare for least your first year riding getting more than that really overkill you never even want use the following bikes can bought and repaired cheaply are easy for novice manage and are plenty high performance kawasaki honda interceptor suzuki the mph time the full throttle way sooner than you ready for with something small you probably wishing for more power pretty quickly unless tzr rgv now not saying that you certain kill yourself immediately with gsxr plenty people have started riding those bikes and done just fine what saying that waste money and waste perfectly good plastic when you drop the thing learning how balance while stopping you never get the throttle more than half open anyway why spend the extra bucks chris
rec.motorcycles	for johs dhhalden last pky fmg pete young writes nick pettefar npet bnr wrote tsk tsk tsk another newbie bites the dust they learn newbie sorry disappoint you but far the internet goes was baghdad while you were still your dads bag based your previous postings apparently devoid humour sarcasm wit the apparent capacity walk and chew gum the same time assumed you were serious mea culpa you cannot serious personally think nick postings are the best thing wreck moto
rec.motorcycles	good reasons wave each other jlevine hydro the angel levine writes has anyone while driving cage ever waved bikers get the urge but never actually done but driven cage the bike park thinking was riding the bike
rec.motorcycles	maxima chain wax article itu myrddin imat com nelson seahunt imat com michael nelson writes article apr research nec com behanna syl nec com chris behanna writes spray the chain wax onto the rollers and sideplates occassionally and rust will not problem did regularly and was interesting all can say that haven seen any wear the miles used the stuff the ninja and the bike stays soooo clean check back again few thousand more miles while the subject whereinthehell can find endless chain other than the dealer rivet type master links are not acceptable later chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nec com baby bike disclaimer now why would nec needs name agree with any this anyway was raised pack wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	please tell they not permenant scratches article sfppisk hpo andrew cmu edu catherine barbara saum andrew cmu edu writes while passngering fiance bandit hip pack rubbed against the tail and left nasty dull finish and teeny scratches there way get rid these buff them out wax them out help has realised yet are you hoping fix before does you planning use cut careful sunlight fades paint and cut removes the surface layer its older bike very sunny where you live then the colour the cut panel wont match the rest the bike bob bob morley pipex public exchange dod cambridge science park ogrite milton road cbr cambridge ely district mcc england
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies article megatek com randy megatek com randy davis writes article apr asl nec com drinckes tssc wlg nec writes course the only people who seem acting smug now probably have chain final drive which all know less efficient and has higher maintenance and probably didn know the answer the start the thread when did you out and change the laws physics according some numbers used see bandied around shaft drive the order efficient while chain drive closer seems that this makes chain drive more efficient hmmmmm and granted shaft has lot less maintenance which fine you don mind less performance randy davis email randy megatek com pilot uunet ucsd megatek randy and you regularly ride your bike within maximum capability note any idiot can flat out bike most them anyway efficient what shaft drive much more efficient solid erect lump metal than floppy flaccid unsatisfying chain doug rinckes drinckes tssc wlg nec new zealand tssc ltd bmw bmw indian
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies article unbvm csd unb unb writes article hpcc corp com gharriso hpcc corp com graeme harrison writes hpcc rec motorcycles xlyx vax cit cornell edu apr possible wheelie motorcycle with shaft drive mike terry virago seen but the real question can one wheelie lead wing how high would the front wheel off the ground wheelies lead wings are possible but they ain easy hhmmm what the relation great uncle several times removed tells for how high how high you want modulation isn exactly the easiest thing the world says guy years old well apparently once you get past about inches all the luggage shifts back the panniers the passenger slides back and the dog ends hanging onto the top rack and they all the way over until flat ass with the front wheel straight the sky impressive but hard the tail lights doug rinckes drinckes tssc wlg nec new zealand tssc ltd bmw bmw indian
rec.motorcycles	happy easter article dcs qmw davide dcs qmw dave edmondson writes lotus looks set for management buyout weren happy that the elan was late and too pricey they can write off the elan development costs the may able sell them for sensible price read that wants keep the design part lotus but lose the car production and seem remember that the main problem with the elan was caused insistence that the elan designed significantly for the market which caused major design production headaches think there legal clause the name regardless who owns must british company owner can sell the company but not the name kevinh hasler ascom don believe that have anything with seperate company from the aero engine company vickers who own rolls royce cars quite true brain fade part david edmondson davide dcs qmw kevinh hasler ascom
rec.motorcycles	want borrow rent bike boston this summer this summer july wife michelle and will boston attending brother wedding after the wedding are planning motor bar harbor maine visit some relatives for few days our summer would made could find bike bikes borrow rent ride bar harbor and back here some important details been riding for years own bikes for the past years michelle has been riding for the past years her own bikes only been involved one accident which was caused cage driver running stop sign currently own bmw michelle owns yamaha virago prefer cruising over racing toured fair amount both licensed and insured and nice people anyone has bike bikes but the second one would have virago something else with equally low seat that they would willing loan for days july michelle and would eternally grateful addition our friendship you would also have the use our bikes should you ever pass through minneapolis exchange would happy take you and guest out for dinner and evening wild bike stories might even willing cough some money for improvements the bike like new tires something also any information about bike rentals the boston area would greatly appreciated thanks scott brandt
rec.motorcycles	your opinion and what means dsc jfs nmrdc nmrdc nnmc navy mil jim small writes article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes since the occurance paid many dollars renumerance taken the drunk class and yes listened all the self righteous assholes like yourself that think your above the rest the world because you never had your own little suaree some aren that fucking stupid you cock sucking asshole that why haven had our own little suaree soo impressed that you had spend your own precious little dollars make for your own stupid act now fuck off friends killed drunk driving assholes like andress infante children friends orphaned drunk driving assholes like infante now who the self righteous asshole you weak willed fuck head hate the the can bite jim hope you never drive ride when you have been drinking you have been taking prescription drugs you didn get enough sleep the night before you are upset with your girlfriend you just didn feel like your brain was talking your body you think you are laguna seca and want break the lap record any the above situations have the potential for harm read death people make mistakesif you have never endangered someone else driving vehicle unsafe manner then right ahead and bitch about infante misuse motor vehicle otherwise think about your own driving responsibilities sorry about the loss your friends but could just well been the idiot who bought volvo because has problems falling asleep the wheel eric simmon eeel nist gov
rec.motorcycles	squids and dealers yesterday friend had asked accompany him local motorcycle dealer has been while since last rode years and myself have never bought new bike from dealer what follows experience that visit and observation squildly behavior other customers and sales personel background ride with group friends who mainly are into cruiser type bikes friend was hell bent getting intruder and had seen few used ones wanted see what the new ones were going for happened upon dealer that sold both suzuki and yamaha the place was fairly busy browsed bit happened upon few intruders most which had sold signs friend had been bitten well the salesdroid appeared and friend started chewing the fat moseid outside the next thing know see sport bikes pull could stereo type the type riders backward ball hat oakley but won well they went inside didn think much figured each his own went back see the salesdroid had his fangs firmly implanted into friends back when noticed the hormone gang talking other salesdroids managers lot laughter jokes etc big deal here the part that concerned the and those shop personel that were not busy with customers went back out where said members fired their rides and did the obligatory reving those beasts this point one decided see how much rubber katana could deposit the drive squids thought myself but was appalled that the salesdroids manager not only condoned this behavior but encourged the point were they were betting how long could keep and egged him pull wheely rode off onto busy street around rush hour the girl that was riding pillion another bike seemed rather hormonal about this display and urged her pilot quickly catch the others followed making sure there kerkers could heard well felt felt embarassed this point motorcyclist felt the eyes those cages witnessing this display then glancing over the dealers lot and damning all those two wheels needless say friend felt little uncomfortable and left will now turn off frustration and ride peacefully clear anger only hope that the cop who following home has open mind and doesn associate with them btw can afford new bike
rec.motorcycles	bike vacation the states this summer going use vacation drivin riding through the states and have some questions that would like post here since from norway was wondering how much does cost rent bike the states probarly going the san fransisco san jose area the ride around think you might have noticed still haven made any plans you know about places ought visit please mail khool wanna dod hangarond bih karstein holen since hurt pendulum life all erratic parrot who was cordinal now transmitting static the carpet died palm collapsed the cat keeps doing poo the only thing that keeps sane talking shoe shoe
rec.motorcycles	was little hasty article unisql uucp ray unisql uucp ray shea writes article apr megatek com randy megatek com writes perhaps dwi lousiana confined liquor everything louisiana related liquor eating sleeping walking talking church state life death and everything between how dare you make such accusation there are many sober non drinkers this state wern busy unloading the beer truck for the week end might just come that and have talk wit you dod technician speed not student stolen taglines hey where did they you don think naahh
rec.motorcycles	wing ding wing ding will take place louisville kentucky from june june for more info register contact gwwra box phoenix tel duncan sterling buffalo wam umd edu university maryland yeeehaaa slim pickens strangelove college park strokes are quicker than anonymous
rec.motorcycles	help adjust tappits rec motorcycles sheppamj sun soe clarkson edu matthew sheppard writes all our local experts say the tappits that need some adjusting soon attempt that would like any advice anyone had not have shop manual but have read about the procedure chiltons and few other places there anything need particularaly carful any problems anyone else has encountered would stongly recommend factory service manual and you are not experienced machanic then get chiltons haynes also make sure the bike has cooled least hours since being run read the books and you have more questions you could mail also very careful when tightening valve cover bolts they take very little torque and breaking one disaster rich sturges falls church
rec.motorcycles	jetting what jetting you recommend for with standard mufflers instead the standard one idle main cheers manuel arrevola velasco mail manolo taf fundesco fundesco calle alcala madrid dod tel don waste your time express
rec.motorcycles	borderline article apr sue uregina franks hercules uregina derek franks writes was wondering anyone the net knows where when the wing ding would you please mail post the info never been one and have some free time this summer and considering attending anyone else vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv vvvvvvvvvv this first post dod aspencade one getting close there rob castro email rdc cunixf columbia edu live for today ltd phone for today you live dod nyc new york new york usa
rec.motorcycles	law order dod anyone catch the show law order last night least here nyc they the law enforcement people needed catch member dod department doom for inflicting computer virus hospital mainframe which ended killing two people because wrong amounts medication were given them anyhow department doom the list rob castro email rdc cunixf columbia edu live for today ltd phone for today you live dod nyc new york new york usa
rec.motorcycles	looking for movies bikes article cassidy elan rowan edu cassidy elan rowan edu kyle cassidy writes article csundh ursa csundh ursa calvin edu charles sundheim writes assembling info for film criticism class final project man every time this thread comes start jumping and down screaming easy wheels easy wheels but date seems like the only one who ever seen this absolutely hysterical basic plot this reporter searching for ring babysnatchers blow off the road very hot gang babe bikers leather rescued from his wrecked car the desert xtian gospal biker band lead viet nam vet with steel plate his head that gives him visions from time time they soon discover that the gang babes kidnapping children raised wolves the reasoning behind this complex and they set out stop them and restore justice and order the world one the funniest movies have ever seen life kyle cassidy cassidy rowan edu fire all your guns once dod actually saw this movie about three months ago but wasn called easy wheels was something else that escapes the moment but did rent from blockbuster video and was hoot the same class plan from outer space jim groh groh sig fsu edu dod hog new improved xlh fxr xlh xlh smaller sig
rec.motorcycles	good reasons wave each other jlevine hydro jody levine writes has anyone while driving cage ever waved bikers get the urge but never actually done yup whenever the cage which not often its riding weather snow find arm out and down and kinda finger wave works best for sport bikes and arm out works best for harleys similar how wave when the bike let see how many posts takes for someone selectively quote this article yah mean like get the urge but never actually done done what why jody would never ever even dream assuming that young lady such refined breeding and taste would even consider such things mean some matters not even have discussed civilized beings but confidence just between the two not even once perhaps got excited thinking about know that bradw newbridge com sig plan clue dod
rec.motorcycles	kaw owners tankbag stuff was just wondering what kind brand name etc would best this bike thanks for your advice jbourgui ucs indiana edu
rec.motorcycles	maxima chain wax article apr research nec com behanna syl nec com chris behanna writes interesting all can say that haven seen any wear the miles used the stuff the ninja and the bike stays soooo clean related note since ups lost chain wax and still using goo found some great stuff clean chain spooge wheels called goo gone and cleaned the spooge off rear wheel faster than the simple green cleaned the bug guts off headlight wonderful stuff recommend that officially delcare dod wonder spooge product dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington bedford kotnml kotb the road shepherd and shall not stop vfr sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited
rec.motorcycles	help adjust tappits jeff nichols jcn rice edu wrote and speaking shims why would the clearance the valves get smaller need the use thinner shim because the valves recede into the cylinder head faster than the shims cams wear down frank ball frankb sad com work hewlett packard fax home valley house drive seca rohnert park wug law ama dod the nra
rec.motorcycles	maxima chain wax article apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes found some great stuff clean chain spooge wheels called goo gone and cleaned the spooge off rear wheel faster than the simple green cleaned the bug guts off headlight wonderful stuff recommend that officially delcare dod wonder spooge product think you can get that most head shops not kidding although seems more appropriate for them selling simple green bmwr erik asphaug
rec.motorcycles	countersteering faq please post egreen east sun com green pixel cruncher writes article zen sys uea mjs sys uea mike sixsmith writes all that argue about gyroscopes etc throughly understand the technique countersteering including all the ones who think that they countersteer all the way through corner well all the way through decreasing radius corner anyway maybe they are riding around ever decreasing circle lies which eventually leads the truth the official line here though have doubts about that the front brake applied first followed the rear brake the idea being that you avoid locking the rear after weight transfer takes place that the official line taught those rider education classes you were refering that also don teach countersteering have question the quality the classes too though unfortunately the official line the one that you have adhere you want get full licence the examiner guidelines are laid down the government and the basic rider education courses have choice but follow them surprises that none the rider groups here either mag the bmf make much noise about the fact that the riding test requires you ride three feet from the kerb all the time order pass that the front brake must applied before the rear that you have keep looking over your shoulder all the time instead just when justified there probably few more too which can think for the moment the riding test could rejigged bit include more the real world survival skills and less the woefully simplistic crap that contains now then the accident figures would imho reduce still further don think should include countersteering knowledge our test though
rec.motorcycles	vfr owners get hidden feature cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes article world std com daved world std com dave dorfman writes was enjoying lunch this saturday foodies milford with assortment other nedod folks when dean cookson yes has not left the country yet mentioned that the wiring diagram the vfr shows that the light switch three position switch does too the switch continuity section the wiring diagram looks something like this low high and too first thought was the wiring diagram that didn fit machine dean
rec.motorcycles	maxima chain wax wheelies article apr acs ucalgary parr acs ucalgary charles parr writes bought tried truly the miracle spooge chain lubed wheel clean after would like offocially nominate maxima chain wax another official dod product choice dod darkman the significant problems face cannot solved the same level thinking were when created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	posted gif bmw any would care see any more close ups different angles can post others also would happy submit one cerritos someone wants write and tell how would prefer picture with you since most motorcycles don post and are rather similar looking all are more alike than they are different the people that are ultimately more interesting from archive policy txt you already have picture some machine readable format gif preferred you can ftp cerritos edu account anonymous password incoming binary mode and notify mail mail uuencoded tanner cerritos edu please include one two line description for inclusion aaareadme txt btw have charlie smith pictures available sea bass sears scs cunixb columbia edu dod stanley interestingly been stanley motorcycle nice little town nice road getting there bruce bruce tanner tanner cerritos edu cerritos college norwalk dod nomad
rec.motorcycles	help law please greetings all can anyone let know status law about riding motorcycles used ride one about years ago and never took dot test one whole list things wished had done when was young but have passed car driving test now travel from littlehampton brighton every day and getting pissed off with the traffic road works thinking about getting bike don laugh just get streetwise and take test then get bigger one now have been told don have the cbt but what will have get full licence thanks advanced leigh leigh dodd engineering and applied science eaps university sussex brighton phone ext fax janet leighd susx eaps internet leighd eaps susx
rec.motorcycles	personal problems was any police ossifers read article ltgnt innfpq earth utexas edu mcguire utexas edu tommy marcus mcguire writes can haul big dic around bike boast john little gaijin japan sun com sun microsystems atsugi japan
rec.motorcycles	touring the southwest article apr dsd com bgardner pebbles com blaine gardner writes make sure you ride between capitol reef and bryce been number top roads lists did they ever put any gas stations rode through there skipped fillup bryce canyon and rode miles before seeing gas station torrey awesome road recall riding narrow ridge above feet bruce bruce tanner tanner cerritos edu cerritos college norwalk dod nomad
rec.motorcycles	please tell they not permenant scratches previous article mjs sys uea mike sixsmith says catherine barbara saum andrew cmu edu writes there way wax out dull finish minor scrathes while passngering fiance bandit hip pack rubbed against the tail and left nasty dull finish and teeny scratches there way get rid these buff them out wax them out help okay here what get drill and sanding disk use say disk and very low rpm you don have drill try coarse steel wool and brake fluid dot has uncanny knack for removing any paint imperfections not responsible for misuse miapplication either these techniques dod darkman the significant problems face cannot solved the same level thinking were when created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	well blow down yuk yuk yuk article wuvmd wustl edu brad thone wuvmd writes you haven done before can dangerous takes some getting used read list yep list over degrees the wind too strong ride ivan reid paul scherrer institute ivan cvax psi gsx american degrees not european dod
rec.motorcycles	black reflector tape article rckk inngub cronkite central sun com doc webrider central sun com writes few months ago one the the motorcycle mags there was article that mentioned reflector tape that was supposed available thru bmw the idea was that the tape would look black sunlight and reflect other colors night has anyone come across this from bmw any other source terry mccandlish president local bmw club buckeye beemers sells this type tape comes strip approximately and can cut sizes needed you can call terry columbus ohio arnie
rec.motorcycles	your opinion and what means article catnip berkeley bandy catnip berkeley andrew scott beals sss writes infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes since the occurance paid many dollars renumerance taken the drunk class and yes listened all the self righteous assholes like yourself that think your above the rest the world because you never had your own little suaree the devil made yeah found beelzebub inside worm yeah that actually was vodka gordon remember correctly didn even buy course that probably the reason drank much that night never again andy infante you can listen what everybody says but the fact remains bmw that you got get out there and the thing yourself dod joan sutherland opinions dammit have nothing with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	was little hasty article jnmoyne moustic lbl gov jnmoyne lbl gov jean noel moyne writes article qeb sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com green pixel cruncher wrote bill breezed through the house lower the intoxification level from faces stiff opposition the senate recently the highway patrol took few the opposition senators out and gave them some shots and when they hit put them course dodging cones they failed and will probably change their votes result did they try the course before having few drinks don see senator that has fat but driven around limo being good driver mater how many drinks has had before jnm yeah really shit like that jerk loch faircloth that couldn win election democrat switches republican the year before this past election and takes terry sanford out with his bitch and moan campaigning typical senate house gubner races swear kick jesse helms the head ever got the chance maybe then get fucking clue how the rest the world lives andy infante you can listen what everybody says but the fact remains bmw that you got get out there and the thing yourself dod joan sutherland opinions dammit have nothing with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	why wanted police officers answer posting you really expect cop answer these honestly first you gotta expect cop honest that another story andy infante you can listen what everybody says but the fact remains bmw that you got get out there and the thing yourself dod joan sutherland opinions dammit have nothing with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies article stafford stafford winona msus edu stafford vax winona msus edu john stafford writes article wrs wslack uucp wrs wslack uucp bill slack wrote folks the shaft doesn have diddleysquatpoop with can get the front wheel off the ground ferchrissake the statement above true the spirit the list because false statement misinformation that the spirit bill will wheelies because chain drive model wow that custom made wish could get chain drive for slashfive too can wheelies and real squiddly andy infante you can listen what everybody says but the fact remains bmw that you got get out there and the thing yourself dod joan sutherland opinions dammit have nothing with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	new motorcycles apparently the only place take the msf course around here community college that woudl preclude some sort state subsidation then andy infante you can listen what everybody says but the fact remains bmw that you got get out there and the thing yourself dod joan sutherland opinions dammit have nothing with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	vfr owners get hidden feature article world std com daved world std com dave dorfman writes was enjoying lunch this saturday foodies milford with assortment other nedod folks when dean cookson yes has not left the country yet mentioned that the wiring diagram the vfr shows that the light switch three position switch high beam low beam both beams well the actual ergonomics the switch make appear position switch but sure enough deam expected when you balance the toggle switch the center position both the high and low beams this provides very nice light coverage the road this true for the and the vfr and would expect for any other late model honda with the standard two position light switch thanks dean for reading the schematics try you like bit careful doing this used balance the switch avec cibie insert that both beams were eventually fried the main ignition switch wasn designed pass that sort current ivan reid paul scherrer institute ivan cvax psi gsx you porsche pass dod
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies article apr siemens mxcrew gud siemens the crew wrote sorry for stupid question but what you americans mean with shaft drives dictionary knows only strange meanings like schaft stiel pfeil strahl welle deichsel schacht shaft bamboozle beat beguile burn flame deceive hoax hoodwink drive campaign crusade push shaft drive may campaign decieve crusade beguile efforts where are true the spirit this list wheel revolution swing crusaders beguile are innefective revolutions and they cannot swing either therefore shaft drives cannot wheelies john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies article cbnewsj att com car cbnewsj att com charles rogers writes the produced engine watts kilowatts being dumped into leetle tiny rings that watts per ring seems little hot doncha think chuck rogers car torreys att com hey like does this work the other way was like you know strap generator fzjrr krx and route its output the chain could increase the horsepower meters sec pretty nice and all but still like able blow away goldwing without going nitro dod big maroon audace don blame voted libertarian
rec.motorcycles	yamaha honda opinions nuet pts mot com keith nuetzman writes hte market for new bike been without for few years the two main bikes looking seriously are the yamaha virago and the honda shadow vlx leaning towards the yamaha for its shaft drive the honda chain insurance fla more costly than thought staying this power range thanks advance for any opinions and experiences friend mine who probably reading this right now just bought new yamaha virago after spending hours very late one chilly evening watching him struggle with the bolts had remove the right peg loosen the brake pedal pretty much decided never get this particular model unless someone else wants change the oil filter for compared the minute change was used for his honda this just design flaw oversight eyes patricia phj remus rutgers edu
rec.motorcycles	help which bikes are short bean cgd ucar edu gregory bean writes help got friend shopping for her first motorcycle this great unfortunately she needs most seat this not great far the only thing found was old and unhappy looking have been checking out bikes hoping for lowish seats for few weeks honda twinstar fit well honda hawk did not the kawasaki can remember looked like would fit well but the price tag was way too large seem remember thread with point similar this passing through several months ago did anybody keep that list please post this list mail one too patricia phj remus rutgers edu
rec.motorcycles	maxima chain wax wheelies yfn ysu edu john daker writes would like offocially nominate maxima chain wax another official dod product choice there official dod products choice list would the appropriate party please post erc its the faq keep them yourself got plenty maybe recheck them now just sure
rec.motorcycles	good reasons wave each other article bbnv quantum qnx com dagibbs quantum qnx com david gibbs writes but similar note for while drove wesfalia this their camper van conversion found that other drivers this same model would wave and waved back maybe its because were all driving funny looking vehicle more because van drivers need little support for driving such underpowered pathetic and truly utilitarian vehicles and used wave and waved all across the country between and now that live cal though find you have damn near wave your arm off keep with all the van drivers this truly vee dub heaven peace taffe mike taffe disclaim this mtaffe ucsd edu
rec.motorcycles	looking for movies bikes article dpd dcs qmw davide dcs qmw dave edmondson writes eat the peach two guys build wall death alleviate boredom get mixed with the ira the process excellent movie not essentially about motorcycles but very poignant look life rural ireland dave tharp dod you can wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra indian scout indian chief ahrma its brother the chief ama they built like rocks velorex nsu max take the knocks bmw compulsive the harleys that employer has idea joiner give you grief
rec.motorcycles	volvo attack article apr uucp fluent dartmouth edu writes cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes where can get rocket launchers for the vfr batf having fire sale waco try there you might try the rec models rockets newsgroup interesting stuff some should probably classified artillery dave tharp dod you can wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra indian scout indian chief ahrma its brother the chief ama they built like rocks velorex nsu max take the knocks bmw compulsive the harleys that employer has idea joiner give you grief
rec.motorcycles	looking for movies bikes silver dream racer frustrated brit club racer buddy dies leaving him built garage revolutionary experimental bike brit club racer uses machine beat bad american bad japanese factory bike british filmed silverstone believe pretty bad dave tharp dod you can wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra indian scout indian chief ahrma its brother the chief ama they built like rocks velorex nsu max take the knocks bmw compulsive the harleys that employer has idea joiner give you grief
rec.motorcycles	magnetic tank bags what about disks won erase them you carrying them the bag cathy cathy saum andrew cmu edu negley ave yamaha seca pgh custom wooden tank studio mustang dod supercalifragilisticexpealidotious what see what know but what feel who are what feel what nobody can ever take away mcnally until your heart stops
rec.motorcycles	any used gsx for sale recently sold nighthawk order upgrade zippy little sport bike however partial the bigger zippy bikes like the gsx there only one town for sale and not sure whether wants part with not please send email you would like sell yours know one for sale could just offer details the performance yours even you wouldn sell appreciate any help the hypeman pontiac mercury topaz looking for bike baby booom mrs baby booom gsx under modification under construction cbr she likes his hers vfr
rec.motorcycles	help need help getting behave managed get the front suspension very happy but the rear sucks can anything with make feel the bike very stable through the corners think because have the front just right but when the straights get bumpy the rear torturous feels like actually amplifies the bumps and the damping doesn seem anything real life although you can tell the difference when the bike isn moving tried sag from completeley unloaded but don know which way has anyone gotten the rear this bike comfortable and what kind settings esp what sag did you use like corner but also would like kidneys remain intact this thing makes the new feel comfy rbarnes sdcc ucsd edu
rec.motorcycles	your opinion and what means article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes since the occurance paid many dollars renumerance taken the drunk class and yes listened all the self righteous assholes like yourself that think your above the rest the world because you never had your own little suaree some aren that fucking stupid you cock sucking asshole that why haven had our own little suaree soo impressed that you had spend your own precious little dollars make for your own stupid act now fuck off friends killed drunk driving assholes like andress infante children friends orphaned drunk driving assholes like infante now who the self righteous asshole you weak willed fuck head hate the the can bite
rec.motorcycles	battery storage why not charge and store dry quite right your batteries should perfectly alright and retain most their charge drained and dried well but throw out the electrolyte and buy some more when you need and before anyone says wrong remember that new batteries almost always come ready charged and dry and they are perfectly even after several years storage the shop mark fox
rec.motorcycles	any xxxx mean police officers read this stuff allan hatcher ahatcher athena uga edu wrote well here goes after lurking for long time announce myself yes the enemy the enemy that also happens ride arrest red vfr don generally consider police officers the enemy hope you don think bikers general have that attitude stereotypes suck either way entertain questions but answers will reflect georgia law and may not apply your state anyone got nomex suit for sale you shouldn get flamed for being cop can promise you won because there are jerks this newsgroup same any other but you been lurking for while you already know that you might get lots flames you try convince people that you know more than them just because you have badge and course you will get moderate amount flamage just for expressing opinion matter what the opinion somebody will flame you for have you ordered any official dod paraphenalia yet wristwatch bandana patches tell your boss your going undercover with real badass biker gang bill ranck bill ranck edu computing center virginia polytchnic inst state univ blacksburg
rec.motorcycles	dyna crane article qpzo hdq cbnewsm att com shz mare att com keeper the tude writes plan switch single fire ignition about month and was curious anyone has experience with the supposedly new crane single fire that competes with the dyna the club wrench not the wench has done dyna modules for several friends and get one also unless bunch folks say the crane better one guy just installed the power arc ignition but has not yet reported the results was not simple bolt replacement new mounting holes had drilled recognize more fun discuss why chris needed change brands penis enhancer but how bout some comments single fire ignitions for while just installed power arc and seems run great also used coils and neither the ignition module the coils required any new mounting holes drilled fxstc little soldering and all was fine static timing was real easy set too the other side the coin local wrench whose opinion invariably seek but don always adopt thinks power arc piece shit and says all them jap chips are gonna fail you one day needless say doesn like any electronic ignition modules and recommends the dyna system think that the one with the hall effect timing sensor correct russ hughes fxstc dod the chrome and steel she rides collidin with the very air she breathes young
rec.motorcycles	with flames out the exhaust article apr research nec com behanna syl nec com chris behanna writes article apr bnr dave dal farra gpz bnr writes reminds great editorial bruce reeve couple months ago cycle canada was pissed off with cops pulling over speeders dangerous spots and often blind corners that one day decided get revenge cruising factory loaner zzr test bike noticed cop had pulled over motorist off ramp with almost shoulder being bright lad hit his bike kill switch just before passing the cop who happened bending towards the offending motorist there exposing his glutes the passing world with his ignition system now dead pumped his throtle two three times fill his exhaust canister with volatile raw fuel all took was stab the kill switch light the ignition and send flame sargeant swell direction wonder any cycle cops read cycle canada although agree with the spirit the action hope that the rider ponied the takes replace the exhaust system just destroyed the owner manual explicitly warns against such behavior for exactly that reason you can destroy your muflers that way one more good reason for straight pipes megaphones regards charles dod does anyone know opti oils sells direct the case load loacl dealership charging for jug injector oil and breaking within the span the last few weeks have heard elements separate threads which that they have been conjoined time struck together form new chord within hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante wrote will wheelies because chain drive model wow that custom made the stock setup someone really ought put end the confusion regarding bmw chain drive boxers didn someone post the faq this some time ago essence describes the problem bmw having with their decision settle down shaft drive standard they vacilate and persist reintroducing the chain drive various models gosh well with the crusade john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	zeno countersteering paradox unveiled article apr acfcluster nyu edu mullignj acfcluster nyu edu wrote therefore there point time when even though front wheel turned the right must going straight ahead the point when from the right turn the left what you are trying describe that transition point where the front wheel actually reverses direction turns backwards john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	two beemer questions article apr organpipe uug arizona edu asphaug lpl arizona edu erik asphaug writes hello folks very happy with new range miles gallons that mpg surprisingly the bike real cruiser was expecting something rough she sweet backroad honey and can pretty much anyplace take mountain bike far shaft effect more torque effect from the crankshaft opinion rev sitting still when the driveshaft not moving and the bike twists bit maybe the clutch then large chunk counter rotating mass not rotating hence light reving makes twist shaft effect the rear end rising under power the real problem getting lower the road when the throttle snapped shut say when you are cornering and the heads are real close the road new bikes with the paralever shaft have almost shaft effect don ride her fast enough get shaft effect but opinion little buffeting wind far greater consequence okay here are questions any recommendations for home made fairing like keep the wind off chest and perhaps helmet for comfort highway speeds mph yet don want screw the stability block vision too much for trail riding anybody have luck with two piece detachible fairings like make myself out plexiglas run two lights the standard headlamp plus sidelamp mounted the crash bar the illumination excellent that way with full beam coming out from the level the motor left side the lamp beam linear that you get bright streak illumination from left right and really picks the periphery deer lurking etc combined with the headlamp high you can see like day but heard that bmw alternators don crank out too much need shut down the sidelamp when puttering around the dirt low rpm question how long you spend low rpm and how much you need the extra light low rpm and under they don charge all that much all the alternators put out sufficient wattage just that you need rpm get this embarassing having trouble starting the bike first thing the morning invariably flood the carbs then and read section the paper and then she starts right this zen thing full choke open the gas taps hit the starter and ever slightly blip the throttle should fire cranking should done with minimal throttle likes the throttles raised just bit off idle experience thing like zen hard describe can hard learn you aren paying atttention the differences between success and failure especially you get really pissed off and flatten the battery while trying get run bike has been sitting for few weeks give short while start doesn turn off and wait few minutes for things vaporize the fuel system and then lights right off got dual plugs which make easier start the hayne manual says not under any circumstances use gasoline with alcohol additives yeah right what you folks due keep the engine and carbs from being eaten ethanol and methanol any particular brands gas that are best additives the big fix the bing carb upgrade kit good for few mpg and the parts are alcohol proof the parts replaces aren alcohol proof long the bike isn going sit for long periods time gasohol nice since helps keep ping away your bike doesn ping cheap gas you ought raise the compression half smiley the bmw twins the and beyond have lowered compression keep the epa happy dual plugs and higher compression give back big chunk the lost perfomance neil kirby dod nak archie cbusa att com bell labs columbus usa you think speak for you might have more lawyers than sense
rec.motorcycles	good reasons wave each other article hydro jlevine hydro jody levine writes has anyone while driving cage ever waved bikers get the urge but never actually done neigh every day most don notice let see how many posts takes for someone selectively quote this article article hydro jlevine hydro jody levine writes has anyone ever done what win green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker green east sun com and showed him picture you said dod get know her you like her the grateful dead seemed like the least could
rec.motorcycles	point for helmet law point for article agate berkeley edu manish uclink berkeley edu manish vij writes motorcycles are not allowed mile drive pebble beach what are there posted signs what they cite you for they don closed access road you pay get you don have resident sticker and they simply don open the gates you bike green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker green east sun com and showed him picture you said dod get know her you like her the grateful dead seemed like the least could
rec.motorcycles	was little hasty article moustic lbl gov jnmoyne lbl gov jean noel moyne writes recently the highway patrol took few the opposition senators out and gave them some shots and when they hit put them course dodging cones they failed and will probably change their votes result did they try the course before having few drinks dunno the newpaper article read didn say was wondering the same thing rather doubt green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker green east sun com and showed him picture you said dod get know her you like her the grateful dead seemed like the least could
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies article snz morgan demon tony morgan demon tony kidson wrote well maintained chains running oil without those little rubber rings cause frictional losses might reach efficiency the average open the dust ring motorcycle chain probably has difficult job making efficient how about some citations this just impressionistic speculation your part for years been laboring under the delusion that chain drives were more efficient that shaft drives chain drives are also stronger ever seen successful shaftie dragster flames please got both kinds drives john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	ignition problem snark bmerh bnr eric nelson writes nighthawk has two related problems with the ignition system won start when cold mornings always need give gas when starting even when using the clutch this all still happens after tune and new battery any ideas what could wrong with the bike think you have the choke starter jet blocked and even the idle one manuel arrevola velasco mail manolo taf fundesco fundesco calle alcala madrid dod tel don waste your time express
rec.motorcycles	time biker iso advice just starting out with motorcycles read the subject bit talked many friends who own ride bikes and encourage the same but when ask about what kind bike should looking get varied answers about large athletic build suppose that would help determine the size bike want want something that going fast and powerful enough satisfy certain cravings once used also want something that not going like bronc first time out any ideas bill replys are prefered through mail thanks advance
rec.motorcycles	vfr owners get hidden feature warning warning may cause unpleasantness article world std com daved world std com dave dorfman writes was enjoying lunch this saturday foodies milford with assortment other nedod folks when dean cookson yes has not left the country yet mentioned that the wiring diagram the vfr shows that the light switch three position switch high beam low beam both beams well the actual ergonomics the switch make appear position switch but sure enough deam expected when you balance the toggle switch the center position both the high and low beams this provides very nice light coverage the road this true for the and the vfr and would expect for any other late model honda with the standard two position light switch make before break type switch not required ought for high low beams there might wee problem with this you use both filaments the same time the bulb tossing out great deal more heat than normal possibly enough shorten life span honda crx cage cage that really wanted bike had wimpy stock lights used run around with both beams made mucho big difference until both low beam filaments died nearly simultaneously this was two weeks after finding out how nice was use both beams replaced the lights with quartz halogen lights and that ended the problem neil kirby dod nak archie cbusa att com bell labs columbus usa you think speak for you might have more lawyers than sense
rec.motorcycles	suzuki for sale article crossposted from sdnet forsale rec motocycle author was michael james posted apr gmt must sell motorcycle tempter has miles and runs well includes cover and tank bag asking for all mail you want take look michael james james mintaka sdsu edu michael james james mintaka sdsu edu still neat sig well
rec.motorcycles	what octane what about ethanol available here corn country and its octane rated and costs the same normal octane eerik villberg people for the eerik iastate edu eating harris street tasty ames animals
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies hpcc corp com gharriso hpcc corp com graeme harrison writes hpcc rec motorcycles xlyx vax cit cornell edu apr possible wheelie motorcycle with shaft drive mike terry virago seen but the real question can one wheelie lead wing how high would the front wheel off the ground graeme harrison there was guy around here who would them early pre fairing wing with hannigan would get right and ride ways pretty intimidating sight was real good had guess you wouldn get away with chopping the throttle more than once jorg klinger gsxr you only new who arch eng services lost horizons think umanitoba man the embalmer anonymous squidonk
rec.motorcycles	type spesifications vfr etc victor johnson the thu apr gmt wibbled rec motorcycles cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes article srgenprp com frankb sad com frank ball writes honda designates engine street bike for for twin how about honda hawk twin but not called that because they took the old engine and stepped make the plant for the hawk new twin does that only fly for microsoft new technology been this too long today cheers victor dances with hawks johnson also the bmw stuff kraut really slow suppose that how much you have spend each week keep the damn thing the road nick the pissed off with his bike again biker dod concise oxford lud nick pettefar contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated bnr npet bnr bmw kay maidenhead the united kingdom pres pbwasoh
rec.motorcycles	dogs bikes first encounter with dog chasing after bike was first poker run big german shepard ran out into the pack bikes was riding with and tried bite the right leg the guy riding front kicked the dog couple times were all only going about mph and just made the dog angrier and got away applying wfo and outrunning the dog who then started after yours truly the time had open drag pipes obnoxiously loud hell and soon the dog was about feet away from the right side bike pulled the clutch and revved the motor about rpm and the roar the pipes frightened the dog away probably made the dog ears hurt like hell and didn come back for the rest the bikers behind either second encounter was with already deceased road kill dog wasn paying very close attention the pavement when the car front straddled the carcass looked down just time see what was about run over just held onto the handlebars and freaked out both wheels went squarely over the dog belly with thump thump just like running over piece lumber the bike didn lose any stability all and kept going after got destination found bits fur meat and blood stuck the bottom motor and frame gross neal howard xlh dod computrac inc richardson doh neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer opinions are mine not computrac let learn dream gentlemen and then perhaps shall learn the truth august kekule
rec.motorcycles	dod confessional article apr bnr mbeaving bnr writes can help myself tried rational look the other way but everytime happens its uncontrollable hate pre motorcycles crud deleted the beav mike beavington dod sabre mbeaving bnr employer has idea what talking about you are missing out lot neat old rides tuba irwin honk therefore computrac richardson irwin cmptrc lonestar org dod
rec.motorcycles	where put your helmet article uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes another good place for your helmet your mirror kid you not you own typical standard other bike with fairly average mirrors that screw into your handlebars your helmet should fit over your mirror and fairly stable butt butt then able the car neak behind and whhheeeeelllleeeee tchum and the chick dig seriously though putting helmet mirror inadvisable because you are then resting the weight the helmet the fragile foam liner that expected cushion your noggin and once crushed that foam never pops back variation mirror hanging thing what with the bike the sidestand hey the centerstand for maintenance turn the wheel the stop left and can hang the helmet the chin bar the right grip there crushable foam the chin bar and pretty secure there long the forks are locked have leave the helmet with the parked bike and the bags aren full that about the most stable place dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com getting tired concours mmmmmmmmmm beating you dave ring ding woops you never learn ama dod cog chicago beth bruiser dixon
rec.motorcycles	with flames out the exhaust hey the lone biker the apocalypse see raising arizona had flames coming out both his exhaust pipes love toggle the kill switch sportster produce flaming backfires especially underneath overpasses night loud and lights the whole underpass neal howard xlh dod computrac inc richardson doh neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer opinions are mine not computrac let learn dream gentlemen and then perhaps shall learn the truth august kekule
rec.motorcycles	funny thing happened the way the hon article elan rowan edu cassidy elan rowan edu kyle cassidy writes and see that for the past miles been riding with side stand down oops and who was that insisted sidestand cutout switches were right there with tachometers something like curse from god green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker green east sun com and showed him picture you said dod get know her you like her the grateful dead seemed like the least could
rec.motorcycles	riceburner respect article qiwz djm cbnewsm att com shz mare att com keeper the tude writes the only consolation was that she had trouble scraping together the while not quite one week beer money for roid well know know how you can afford harley keith schauer texas instruments plain texas custom dod insane society the sane man must appear insane ama company disavows any knowledge actions
rec.motorcycles	which the better bike looking the honda shadow and the intruder what have you heard about these bikes also plan doing long time riding are these twin cruisers the best bikes get dont want something massive like the goldwings
rec.motorcycles	wing ding wed apr gmt franks hercules uregina derek franks said franks this first post dod would you like know what dod you feel free ask fill your rtaraz wpi wpi edu today tank and good day for ride dod taurus die
rec.motorcycles	any xxxx mean police officers read this stuff article oav vtserf edu ranck joesbar edu ranck writes and course you will get moderate amount flamage just for expressing opinion matter what the opinion somebody will flame you for bill ranck bill ranck edu hey what the hell you mean that you suck have god given right express opinions carry gun and not wear helmet goddamn everything you stand for stupid you know alan really like this one tommy mcguire mcguire utexas edu mcguire austin ibm com will append appropriate disclaimer outgoing public information identifying personal and independent ibm
rec.motorcycles	countersteering sans hands article rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda writes well many bored bike tourer can tell you the way steer sans hans push your body off the side you want lean also known leaning say you want turn left severely confused rambling about the ground pushing but the front wheel has trail the ground pushes the front wheel toward the left the contact patch the trail will cause the wheel turn the right hey there are hands counter steering contersteering refers pushing the inside handlebar effect lean hands countersteering oxymoron green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker green east sun com and showed him picture you said dod get know her you like her the grateful dead seemed like the least could
rec.motorcycles	bub pipes live free with variable loudness after failing state new hampshire noise gestapo test with slash cut pipes installed new bubs which had been planning anyway went different spection station and passed with problem about two points first don think the first dude did the noise test correctly holding the meter close his body probably caused high reading and doing inside the garage with the door closed undoubtedly enhanced the level any other riders need get this done make sure the inspection done outdoors with the meter held well away from the body second these bub pipes are bloody terrific low revs cruising through town they quiet the stock pipes but have sound thats more throaty purring rumble when you open her rpm they emit wonderfully satisfying rumbling roar best both worlds russ hughes fxstc dod the chrome and steel she rides collidin with the very air she breathes young
rec.motorcycles	need advice for riding with someone pillion article apr microsoft com patlo microsoft com pat loughery writes also remember that much more draining and tiring ride than yourself because you concentrating much more and the zen the moment less remember this the first few times pillioned someone whose safety was great concern opposed brothers etc almost got both killed several occasions was surprised discover that much safer just drive than distract yourself trying unusually cautious and concerned abruptly adopting novel set thought patterns and riding strategies while piloting bike just asking for trouble michael robinson uucp ucbvax cogsci robinson internet robinson cogsci berkeley edu
rec.motorcycles	yamaha honda opinions previous article phj remus rutgers edu says nuet pts mot com keith nuetzman writes friend mine who probably reading this right now just bought new yamaha virago after spending hours very late one chilly evening watching him struggle with the bolts had remove the right peg loosen the brake pedal pretty much decided never get this particular model unless someone else wants change the oil filter for compared the minute change was used for his honda this just design flaw oversight eyes patricia phj remus rutgers edu sure don know what bike was being worked but sure wasn virago owned both the and and you can the filter change about mins and nothing has removed obviously the new bike was modified the stock machine simple work watching for imitators lloyd freenet carleton carr carr uranus dgrc doc dod fhc osq amrp org eon can
rec.motorcycles	battery storage why not charge and store dry article apr mnemosyne edu mfox nyx edu mark fox says quite right your batteries should perfectly alright and retain most their charge drained and dried well but throw out the electrolyte and buy some more when you need and before anyone says wrong remember that new batteries almost always come ready charged and dry and they are perfectly even after several years storage the shop mark fox makes sense after all when steel manufactured and stored they put oil won rust logicaly when you store your bike you must strip the paint and put oil the metal prevent rus
rec.motorcycles	dogs ooooooopsssss for second there thought was rec beatthelivingcrapoutofadog not hell was wondering why there was all the pointless woffle about motorcycles how find rec beatthelivingcrapoutofadog dont think our system takes
rec.motorcycles	advantages slip ons article apr kronos arc nasa gov dschlot pioneer arc nasa gov dave schlotthauer writes quick question what are the advantages slip versus your stock exhaust versus aftermarket exhaust systems don see many people using slip but they are heavily advertised and half expensive thanks dave cost lower than oem replacements and they weigh less also most instances you not have rejet the carburetors get little more performance replaced oem canister with ontario systems slip the mid range performance better but also notice slight stumble rpm after talking kaz yoshima the developer and manufacturer the slip thinks might need larger pilot idle jets was not suppose but maybe where live makes difference altitude barometric pressure anyway besides that minor glitch like the slip performance and the sound which louder than stock but not loud enough annoy folks the ontario slip use some sort sound baffling technique reduce the sound full throttle just remember every bike tuned system when you change the intake exhaust characteristics beyond the allowable delta the manufacturer you may have change other areas compensate like complete change the exhaust system header and muffler changes the exhaust characteristic the point which jetting required compensate for the new engine breathing pumping profile talk with the folks who make the slip you intend use and ask them they have used your particular bike check with people who have the system also see what they think about there slip also last data point sport rider first issue did review group header and exhaust systems for the cbr they also included side bar the ontario slip the dyno showed increase from stock bhp the rear wheel verses buyer beware outrageous claimed increases horse power may have been true the past but not today cbr allen tobias technical email convex computer corp marketing tobias convex com waterview parkway richardson this bike awesome and fearless let jay gleason
rec.motorcycles	advantages slip ons article rigoj isl apple com paul thompson thompson apple com writes sure would nice someone would start making replacements for oem exhausts that were would cheaper but not louder read about supertrapp system called that was supposed quiet enough pass some european standards apparently not the market yet yoshimura makes few systems that are supposed kind quiet they are also really light planning getting one these systems soon and will post the results mark mark burnham markb novell com ama dod alfa romeo gtv ninja
rec.motorcycles	funny thing happened the dmv the other day saw this posted and brings interesting event mind article mdennie beryllium mdennie xerox com matt dennie writes the reactions little boys seems the most enthusiastic wave and also good see always wave when see kid that has least noticed bike figure helps the future the sport have admit that usually try without the parental figure noticing afraid that the kid will get yelled for associatign with anti societal types like few weeks ago was the dmv with ken was standing mile long line waiting for some really bored looking person fleece bunch people from some dough ken was sitting chair next our helmets wondering why everybody there looked about the social calibur people you would find laundromat when some young woman walked who required our conferring attentions came over and stood line with while watched her fill out some forms and then noticed little kid about years old reach over the bench and touch our helmets one time didn particularly mind and neither did ken that the kid was touching our helmets that but the helmets weren the most stable platforms ken scooted over there resettle them and soon touched the helmets mother said child started shrieking her kid you stay away from those you shit and whopped the tyke brutally about the head and shoulders suppose was our scary sex drugs and unix shirts that sent such bouts terror through her body
rec.motorcycles	story respect article apr pacesetter com lynn pacesetter com lynn hall writes nudity fine loud noise fine party all night fine but the right place and time please let not trample over other rights and then bitch because they don treat like gods michael menard you know wasn even going respond this typical anti party attitude message trash was everywhere reason not enough dipsy dumpsters for the massive crowd oatman wasn prepared for the vast number people that showed don think michael response was anti party but rather pro environmental agree that you gotta let hogs out roam every once awhile let hope that next year oatman will better prepared and that all pick after ourselves asshole already admitted asshole many times the net all friends are assholes too lyrics new song you want dime call someone that cares well for one thought you told good story even you say you are hole need more biker experiances written news unfortunate that you got flamed for telling but all know this controversial group any rate keep the good work and continue post stories jerry fxdl
rec.motorcycles	touring the southwest article fatcity cts com kim fatcity cts com kim sharpe writes few are touring sothwest utah mid june see the canyons any you have some helpful hints where stay things see avoid plans are see bryce zion arches the grand close that point additional trip required any help would nice thank you for your support the grand canyon not too far away short side trips kolob between cedar city and hurricane and pipe springs the way from hurricane the grand canyon may interesting they are right off the highway pipe springs small fort gives you real insight into just how the pioneers lived you have missed one major must see attraction cedar breaks the mountains above cedar city take lots film they have reason for calling this kodachrome country natural bridges the four corners area also very scenic but may too far off your route monument valley spectacular but again may too far away rich tweedie
rec.motorcycles	inner tube tyre safe speedy mercer speedy engr latech edu wrote article apr csdvax csd unsw edu exb csdvax csd unsw edu writes hello dod ers need some advice inner tubes tubeless tyres barry manor dod spend the bucks and get new tire dod technician speed not student second the commend from speed get new tire like your brakes something you don want take chances with waited too long take care front tire once and went flat doing mph going down the grapevine towards bakersfield that instance would given any amount money for new tire lucky here jerry
rec.sport.baseball	braves giants tmiller cimmeria gatech edu thomas miller writes does anyone else think that this weekend four game series was really strange one yes was the strangest series have ever watched and the ending fit perfectly kurt atlanta hoyt gatech edu kwh salestech com compuserve com politics from the greek poli many tics ugly blood sucking parasites
rec.sport.baseball	mlb nba rvesterm vma edu writes article mssc qrrz netcom com mss netcom com mark singer says article rvesterm vma edu rvesterm vma edu writes you want decrease players salaries you want increase owners salaries the two are equivalent bob vesterman only you insist that the ticket prices cannot adjusted downward the taxes for the revenues build the ballparks the parking charges the concession costs etc why would owners decrease ticket prices when they obviously get lots people pay the price they asking even assuming that you have some strange power make the owners decrease ticket prices that does not decrease the contract bob vesterman what will happen when the contract runs out considering networks have been losing money either ticket prices will someones salary will cut perhaps the local community merchindise could make the difference baseball probably facing dramatic drop income very soon and someone will suffer probably the fans from higher ticket prices but definitely someone
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris hey guys who this jack morris fella only joking but try lighten will the season only just started and everyone apoplectic all you statheads out there are trying justify how morris doing the moment just remember that talking about very small sample size there helluva long way sit back and enjoy the ride tony
rec.sport.baseball	braves giants article hpspdla spd com garyr hpspdla spd com gary rosen writes thomas miller apr does anyone else think that this weekend four game series was really strange one yeah was real strange you think the braves should awarded the west title without actually having play the games gary rosen didn say that did you say that wow can believe that anyone would think that the braves any other team for that matter should get the title for free what dolt that person would that was what they thought incredible thomas miller tmiller cimmeria gatech edu systems support specialist georgia tech network services and looked and behold pale horse and his name that sat him was death and hell followed with him
rec.sport.baseball	hunter klesko steph pegasus uiuc edu dale stephenson writes news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes touter braves prospects all can say that imo someone the braves roster about become pipped may not even hunter but think they have problem getting klesko out the lineup once well this may good news klesko hits look for bream traded possible released since bream also lefthander hope klesko hits according the atlanta paper bream will the full time first baseman with klesko used late inning defensive replacement bream lifted for pinch runner have hit homer his first win the game some other amazing thing rewarded with start could even attempt push hunter bream out the lineup kurt atlanta hoyt gatech edu kwh salestech com compuserve com politics from the greek poli many tics ugly blood sucking parasites
rec.sport.baseball	game length was braves update nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes however what with this policy trying speed the games you are the first person non mediot have seen endorse this policy have problem with the length games all and tired the espn crowd and other announcers bitching about have never been ballpark filled with people looking their watches and shouting hurry cough big bucks for ticket don mind game that last more than really don understand agree with nick what the big deal about long games you want watch baseball there that much more baseball watch and yes baseball includes the space between plays well the plays themselves suspect that lot the complaining about long games especially when coming from people has something with advertising probably time wasted the middle inning say batter stepping out the box fiddle with his gloves pitcher walking around behind the mound trying collect his thoughts could otherwise sold advertising time heather hhenderson vax clarku edu
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris article apr ramsey laurentian maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes not all talking about morris winning with toronto last year you are about launch into fantasy about the red jays and how toronto would have done with viola their team viola didn play for toronto last year morris did the problem with your nihilistic approach roger that takes all the sense out the game your line reasoning guy hits into double play with one out and the bases loaded there point saying that that was bad thing his team won anyway speculating what might have happened things had gone otherwise the double play merely event that happened the course game that was eventually won lost for unknown reasons after all any speculation involves constructing fantasy about what would have happened but didn roger you ever worry that the next pencil you drop will fall the ceiling instead are you willing consider empirical evidence teams the post season when they win more games than anybody else their division they don make the post season they don win the series will you agree that winning division useful intermediate goal ring collecting you must agree that winning games useful intermediate goal towards winning the division and our disagreements come when consider how win games your viewpoint expressed winning games happens for reasons that cannot analyzed while many are thinking things like base runners are good outs are bad and therefore walks are better than double plays with the bases loaded you are thinking things like team game perhaps the double play will cause some mysterious team dynamics that will cause the team win today the result that becomes impossible say anything about individual players perhaps atlanta would have won the series with playing left field after all perhaps some way knowledge and personality would have helped the team more than complete lack skill would have hurt therefore could extremely valuable player did dave winfield have anything with the jays victory probably but how you know you replace him with andres galarraga perhaps the jays would have won perhaps they would have lost perhaps they would have defected alpha centauri bearing mind that the flying saucers would not have landed mid season had winfield been dhing for toronto was babe ruth good player played some winning teams but did have anything with their success generally accepted that ernie banks was good baseball player and jarvis brown and dan schatzeder weren seems that anybody who would deny this needs provide the proof now have observed things about baseball over the years both empirically and looking the rulebook necessary score more runs than one opponent win the game would seem important score runs and prevent one opponent from scoring runs are scored while team batting and inning ends after the third out would seem that making outs bad while hitting home runs good players have tendencies hit pitch certain levels and these are usually somewhat consistent from year year use these statistics predict winners and you make some flat predictions barry bonds will have higher obp slg than gene larkin this year the braves will finish ahead the rockies the standings the tigers will score more runs than the royals but will also give more would astonished any these turned out false and suspect would you matter fact pretty sure can predict all the division winners this year given guesses per division and this certainly better than random chance and almost statistically significant you will admit that the rockies and mariners are unlikely meet the world series you must admit that there some sort way measure likelihoods however fuzzy impossible for all other things equal your fantasy totally meaningless how about real life person robs service station with two people using automatic pistol gets and convicted and sentenced for three years person with similar criminal record robs service station with two people using revolver gets and convicted since they used two different types handgun are comparisons totally meaningless say you drop pencil see the gravity still works cats are always testing this they don trust pay the gravity bill time you have never dropped pencil that exact time the century before all previous evidence meaningless would you surprised flew out the window instead hitting the desk david thornley who has replica world series rings but does have tickets the world series the metrodome
rec.sport.baseball	game length was braves update article apr vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes however what with this policy trying speed the games agree with nick what the big deal about long games you want watch baseball there that much more baseball watch and yes baseball includes the space between plays well the plays themselves hesitate make assumptions about other people when they write but neither you two sound though you have kids and you may not have spouses either consider night game starting est was last year but cleveland showed what thought was good sense pushing back and into until minimum extra innings could put well past midnight even without extra innings the score beyond can see family that night all the next day workday may have bag that well further the later the game goes the colder gets the shore lake erie all that stuff enters into consideration even going game you say you don care about whether the game sped impo you are saying you don care where the time goes and that the game for people who don have families and don have get for work the next day can play better than anyone there only one barry bonds playing himself two movies
rec.sport.baseball	bob knepper was damn right article aginn shelley washington edu tannerg hardy washington edu glenn tanner writes fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes article apr leland stanford edu dkeisen leland stanford edu dave eisen writes why did get sucked into this article apr news yale edu austin jacobs writes don you guys think mean mon what the heck are women doing even thinking getting into baseball they cause many problems just assuming you serious guess you surprised hear that guys don think would guess that tiny fraction the folks reading your post agree with kind doubt that even you agree with sheesh agree with you here dave anyone for starting rec sports idiots for guys like austin but for starting rec sports idiots for people who respond obvious flamebait nah let reserve rec sports idiots for people who post obvious flamebait like yourself someone posts something controversial not mention idiotic what austin posted widely accessed newsgroup someone should challenge the statement there school thought that suggests that silence consent whereas this idea may not apply everything life certainly should apply forum public discussion which you been reading lately you find that even elementary school children have had access our postings alibet edited form making think little more carefully about some the things post conclusion someone like austin wants post his drivel some obscure newsgroup that don read fine got the right rant rave and drool all wants the name free speech but drools newsgroup that read then will support the right anyone provide rebuttal his drooling now course you don have read any this and you want cut down flames then don post flamebait you don have respond flames either saves cyberspace sheesh eric
rec.sport.baseball	mlb standings and scores for tue apr note saturday april scores should sent out this coming friday mlb standings and scores for tuesday april including yesterday games national west won lost pct last streak home road san francisco giants won houston astros won atlanta braves lost los angeles dodgers won san diego padres won colorado rockies lost cincinnati reds won national east philadelphia phillies won pittsburgh pirates lost louis cardinals lost new york mets lost chicago cubs lost montreal expos won florida marlins lost american west won lost pct last streak home road texas rangers won california angels lost minnesota twins lost chicago white sox lost seattle mariners won oakland athletics lost kansas city royals won american east boston red sox won detroit tigers lost toronto blue jays won new york yankees lost milwaukee brewers won cleveland indians lost baltimore orioles won yesterday scores idle teams listed alphabetical order national league american league houston astros ppd chicago white sox chicago cubs rain boston red sox atlanta braves idle toronto blue jays cincinnati reds idle cleveland indians colorado rockies idle seattle mariners florida marlins idle detroit tigers los angeles dodgers idle baltimore orioles idle montreal expos idle california angels idle new york mets idle kansas city royals idle philadelphia philliesidle milwaukee brewers idle pittsburgh pirates idle minnesota twins idle louis cardinals idle new york yankees idle san francisco giants idle oakland athletics idle san diego padres idle texas rangers idle joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
rec.sport.baseball	mlb scores correction there correction the note posted for today update this how read note saturday april scores should sent out this coming friday course last saturday was april people who requested those scores should receive them friday the thanks joe hernandez joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
rec.sport.baseball	devon white why not playing article fir helios physics utoronto wyllie helios physics utoronto andrew wyllie writes article apr bmerh bnr hsslee bnr writes devon white has not been the blue jays line lately does anybody know why not playing during one the games last week wednesday both white and sprauge were not playing because they had the flu guess white probably still sick hope white gets back the lineup soon watching darrin jackson play center painful andrew heard had strained abdominal muscle something like that dan brekke
rec.sport.baseball	hbp big cat kubey sgi com ken kubey said suppose foul ball machine like brett butler pretty valuable but rather watch and root for the lower obp guys who can actually hit the ball now this legitimate point baseball entertainment and have quarrel with people who find certain styles play more entertaining than others regardless their win value personally huge fan the slug bunt doubt high percentage play but get big kick out willing live with the bad consequences exchange for the fun course this not the same claiming some that galarraga inability defer gratification isn hurting his team because isn paid walk rbi guy whatever and finally like point out that many high obp guys draw their walks more because pitchers are afraid throw strike them than because they have great eye not sure used think this was true but more and more becoming convinced that the other way around among players with the physical ability hit the ball real hard the patient ones are the ones who get the chance lot let break down the four basic categories hitter according whether they are power threats and whether they walk lot power power patient frank thomas brett butler barry bonds ozzie smith mark mcgwire craig grebeck babe ruth miller huggins ted williams billy hamilton rickey henderson eddie joost joe morgan mike hargrove impatient ernie banks ozzie guillen dave kingman shawon dunston joe carter andres thomas george bell jose lind kirby puckett devon white etc far can tell all the categories are full really looks like the two are independent nobody could possibly afraid craig grebeck the plate and yet walks quite lot part that undoubtedly being small stature but surely major league pitchers can hit that sort target least times out randy milligan even better example only shown noticeable power for one partial season but walks all over the place despite his huge strike zone david tate dtate pitt edu greetings sir with bat not quick member iie orsa tims sabr hands not soft eye not discerning and denver they call you slugger the big catullus galarraga and compare you own mattingly
rec.sport.baseball	predicted runs from lineup some time back this newsgroup seem recall thread about predicting the runs given lineup batters could expected score given the appropriate statistical alphabet soup for these hitters obp slg avg bat length hat size day the week weather conditions etc anyway was dreaming there some such animal apologies this has been covered recently probably get read the articles posted here time many thanks advance scotty scott walsh scottwa pogo tek com tektronix inc graphics printing imaging products ibd
rec.sport.baseball	braves update article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes that been thrown out and gant had legitimate beef about the pitch that was called strike reasonable umpire would not have tried force gant back into the box that situation reasonable umpire would been instructed this season get the batters back the box sooner try cut down the ridiculous length games for one glad see this happen and hope more umpires will hirschbeck did instructing the pitcher pitch the batter won get back the box what the previous strike call was bogus the past can changed get back there and deal with the next pitch sorry sherri but can agree with this particular incident while all for cutting down the number chain rattles and other examples rampant hargroving there was difference here since time immemorial batters have complained about calls have pitchers and catchers usually nothing happens unless the league notified teams this year about not allowing complaints hirschbeck was acting against expectations not gant was hirschbeck face gant said something about the call stepped out the box and turned away from hirschbeck hitter alibet little consequence but with decent eye whenever receiving the short end the stick questionable call want moment two out the box for other reason than rethink the strike zone based the experience the last pitch and was really angry the ump rather turn away and catch breath than turn him and say something that might get tossed especially key moment the game when gant turned away hirschbeck immediately motioned for gant step into the box imo this point time hirschbeck was determined show gant exactly who was charge this game gant wasn dawdling hadn had chance dawdle and hirschbeck was simply exercising power play gant resisted many might what thought was unreasonable request and hirschbeck called for the pitch that point cox came out the field the pitch was thrown and many other braves left the dugout cox was tossed protecting his player was pleasantly surprised that gant kept his cool enough stay the game small sample size but based what saw that game mark hirschbeck has hair trigger temper and need play god the field not good qualities for umpire will keep eyes open for future appearances hirschbeck the future order improve sample size imo any game where you remember the name the umpire was bad game for the umpire eric roush
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris article apr ramsey laurentian maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes cannot isolate the total contribution that any player any position makes his team victory and since cannot make that measure with complete confidence objectivity and since there absolutely necessary reason make that kind subjective measurement submit you that pointless trying put together winning team might consider era might consider attitude might consider past performance key situations but what looking for not the player that considers the best the looking for the player thinks can help his team win cannot isolate completely roger but can make pretty good estimate won claim split hairs and say that can really measure who was better robby alomar carlos baerga last year the difference too close call but larkin and lee clemens and morris the differences are too great there your measure the game why should team that has just won all ever replace single player since they are now clearly best how can they better yet every team can always find someplace where they beleive they can improve the team they can always find player little better than one they already have btw definitions the best player the one who does the most things help his team win will allow that this could vary depending who else the team having aptitudes one team needs more than others baseball team game but made individual talents absurd judge the success failure individual the success failure his teammates whom did not choose least most cases morris won last year because played team with joe carter robby alomar tom henke juan guzman john olerud clemens lost because was surrounded such lesser performers herm winninham luis rivera and jeff reardon define the quality the team sum its components albeit imperfectly lesser error than defining the quality individual the mean quality the team reading your arguments suggests you clay
rec.sport.baseball	let play the name game article apr newshub ariel yorku ariel yorku shawn luddington writes how about changing team names post your choices here start how about the baltimore baseblazers san francisco quakes pittsburgh sellouts shawn rangers
rec.sport.baseball	phils spot espn few weeks ago posted about the phillies team personalities did anyone see the espn feature the phils monday night john kruk had great line was talking about people the team always playing and not sitting out because minor injury said they they know kick their ass the time saw was the afternoon and was not bleeped when saw they bleeped ass mitch williams talked about the team being bunch throwaways from other teams and that why they are close kruk said that they all get along this year last year said they hated the pitchers assume was joking but always keeps straight face when talks what team rob koffler you live day day and rkoffler cso uiuc edu dream about tomorrow don henley
rec.sport.baseball	ottawa lynx info wanted cchb musict mcgill cchb writes the current roster the lynx someone the minor league mailing list probably does home game schedule the lynx but don have time type the whole thing don mind looking specific date ranges individual games when can but there are limits besides this stuff easy find baseball america puts out book called the directory has every team data and schedule were type the whole scheudle just spending lot time infringing their copyright folks who are interested the minors should check out minor league list see the signature and folks who are tracking down team schedules should chec out the directory you can order from find indispenable chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd
rec.sport.baseball	braves giants fls keynes econ duke edu forrest smith writes the situation with the giants bleachers case point for the need for commissioner okay curious why are you expectin the commissioner fly and stand the pitchers mound yell the fans sit down what chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd
rec.sport.baseball	right right was bob knepper was damn right article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes article aginn shelley washington edu tannerg hardy washington edu glenn tanner writes but for starting rec sports idiots for people who respond obvious flamebait nah let reserve rec sports idiots for people who post obvious flamebait like yourself funny didn realize tanner brought bob knepper pam postema the first place thought was someone named jacobs someone posts something controversial not mention idiotic what austin posted widely accessed newsgroup someone should challenge the statement why statement truly idiotic and universally thought the challenge waste panting further challenges that have nothing yes nothing with baseball are wasting others time you got problem with what bob knepper thinks let hear some sort categorical manner actually question whether either knepper postema aren old news this point although what have read postema book interesting there school thought that suggests that silence consent agree this far whereas this idea may not apply everything life certainly should apply forum public discussion sez you you been reading lately you find that even elementary school children have had access our postings albeit edited form making think little more carefully about some the things post that does not come out what you say down the road here conclusion someone like austin wants post his drivel some obscure newsgroup that don read fine got the right rant rave and drool all wants the name free speech but drools newsgroup that read then will support the right anyone provide rebuttal his drooling even elementary school children have had access our postings albeit edited form you want them hear you talk like this don you want people who come this group talk baseball think you like the same you want them think you some politically correct demagogue who sensitive hum plus you here limiting free speech some obscure newsgroup that don read what you got problem with what jacobs says what knepper thinks all you have defeat with better ideas more and better speech yours the easy way out for knepper ever notice how sometimes these guys will say just about any darn thing that pops their heads when mike shoved front them you know that often the best copy for the news the one that isn pre prepared they know knepper has controversial ideas about women they pop some question about postema interesting related question would whether the two ever appeared the same game off the top head guess guess right knepper popped off about something that had nothing with him and postema gets book for and doesn now course you don have read any this and you want cut down flames then don post flamebait you don have respond flames either saves cyberspace now why didn think that can play better than anyone there only one barry bonds playing himself two movies
rec.sport.baseball	bonilla thf kimbark uchicago edu ted frank writes article mjones fenway mjones donald aix kingston ibm com writes fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes quick name light hitting black outfielder who lasted years the bigs bet you can name two dozen white ones otis nixon stole bases still light hitting but baseball managers don think they think like omar moreno before him perfect leadoff man awesome defense well yeah the other hand for the first few years his career looked like herb washington dan gladden doesn seem suck defensively either darnell coles still around because his when hit yeah and how many the white guys played one year into long career actually not uncommon phenomenon and how long guy hangs around based one good year seems like reasonable question explore racial basis billy hatcher see still around for his tenth year hey plays for lou gorman doesn eight years admit taking quick browse through the major league handbook but only after the first and there the all time light hitting black outfielder lou brock look and curt flood cesar geronimo cesar cedeno brock suffered from otis nixon disease but wasn perceived light hitting neither was curt flood cesar cedeno was not light hitting good point cedeno otoh haven seen that extensive list year dan gladdens either there really aren that many players altogether who hang around for years even they reasonably good mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com may you live interesting times chinese curse
rec.sport.baseball	braves update article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes reasonable umpire would been instructed this season get the batters back the box sooner try cut down the ridiculous length games for one glad see this happen and hope more umpires will hirschbeck did instructing the pitcher pitch the batter won get back the box reasonable umpire would have recognized that ron gant was disturbed with the call reasonable umpire would have realized that there was run game progress with two outs the ninth what ron gant did was try regain his composure what normal baseball player would have done would have been get into heated argument with the umpire and since you can argue balls and strikes would have been ejected from the game ron gant trying avoid such conflict was penalized for showing some restraint incidentally reasonable home plate umpire would not have been resistant seeking the appeal the first base umpire gant requested the home plate umpire had appealed first the first base umpire could have wrung the strike and gant would not have been upset the call had been ball and the catcher had requested the appeal likely the home plate umpire would have asked for the help finally the entire game was pretty much mockery the called efforts speed the game the game was played very quickly was just hours when the stuff happened the ninth and the only delays the entire game had been the result actions the umpires other than deion having clean garbage off the field econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke correspondents email has been changed new address fls econ duke edu mail bounces try fls raphael acpub duke edu
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris sfve murdoch acc virginia edu drw delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker writes cannot isolate completely roger but can make pretty good estimate won claim split hairs and say that can really measure who was better robby alomar carlos baerga last year the difference too close call but larkin and lee clemens and morris the differences are too great there your measure the game why should team that has just won all ever replace single player since they are now clearly best how can they better yet every team can always find someplace where they beleive they can improve the team they can always find player little better than one they already have btw definitions the best player the one who does the most things help his team win will allow that this could vary depending who else the team having aptitudes one team needs more than others well then given your definition best not conceivable that alfredo griffin could bring something team that that team needs win while larkin might not have that something the team needs would griffin then better than larkin baseball team game but made individual talents absurd judge the success failure individual the success failure his teammates whom did not choose least most cases morris won last year because played team with joe carter robby alomar tom henke juan guzman john olerud clemens lost because was surrounded such lesser performers herm winninham luis rivera and jeff reardon define the quality the team sum its components albeit imperfectly lesser error than defining the quality individual the mean quality the team reading your arguments suggests you not trying define the quality individual least not for the purpose ranking them toronto won with olerud they might have won with fielder they might not have won with thomas detroit might have won with thomas chicago might have won with fielder you can rank these individuals you can only look who might contribute more the team effort which winning the thomas could not have contributed that goal any more than olerud cannot say that olerud less player cordially always maynard ramsey laurentian many morons and little time
rec.sport.baseball	how speed games marginally realistic you want speed ballgames enforce the two minutes between innings many fields are allowing three minutes between them fifteen seconds before commercials are gone thirty before action begins upon the return the game two minutes last out first pitch ball called don grant time batters just because they want they may get pissed first but they get line once anything the pitcher throws while they adjusting their wristbands strike mandate rule permitting only seconds between pitches the current rule too lenient and then enforce fifteen seconds more than enough time the pitch isn released call ball and restart the clock baseball games take about the and just shade under hours the that just too damn long don like play hour games much less watch game for that long butt falls asleep and watching channel surf between pitches catching colorized versions leave beaver and those wacky nieporents nick nite gary huckabay you think that loud enough hole movie rights well you having trouble hearing sir available thru happy turn for you didn ted frank know that many people your age liked king
rec.sport.baseball	braves giants article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes just refresher the baseballs came the field during sunday slugfest when giant patron refused throw atlanta back the garbage started hitting the field well before the sunday game started thursday friday can recall which games didn watch tbs deion was getting pelted with trash the whole time seemed the announcers talked about the change the seating the bleachers and how that made easier for the events that transpired actually thought the start the sunday slugfest that since was sunday daygame the crowd would little different more refined surprise econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke correspondents email has been changed new address fls econ duke edu mail bounces try fls raphael acpub duke edu
rec.sport.baseball	game length was braves update nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes stuff about ron gant incident deleted reasonable umpire would been instructed this season get the batters back the box sooner try cut down the ridiculous length games for one glad see this happen agree that hirschbeck was just doing what was instructed and also that gant should have listened him however what with this policy trying speed the games you are the first person non mediot have seen endorse this policy have problem with the length games all and tired the espn crowd and other announcers bitching about have never been ballpark filled with people looking their watches and shouting hurry cough big bucks for ticket don mind game that last more than really don understand games are longer now for several reasons stuff deleted maybe just well with nothing better but would like hear reasons why the longer games upset you well don want shorter games per but would like for them stop wasting much time during games the gant incident perfect example when guy comes the plate should there hit not show off show the umpire which clearly what gant was doing feel like writing fan letter hirschbeck mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com for purposes action nothing more useful than narrowness thought combined with energy will henri frederick amile
rec.sport.baseball	bonilla article apr midway uchicago edu thf midway uchicago edu writes gary varsho halfway there and unlikely make the way there wait minute could swear that varsho white sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	usa mcweekly stats article apr mnemosyne edu gspira nyx edu greg spira writes bill james doesn sell statistics sells books with statistics but not the business providing stats like elias stats howe baseball workshop etc are bill james however very closely tied stats sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	braves update article news duke edu fls keynes econ duke edu forrest smith writes argument over reasonable players and umpires deleted incidentally reasonable home plate umpire would not have been resistant seeking the appeal the first base umpire gant requested the home plate umpire had appealed first the first base umpire could have wrung the strike and gant would not have been upset the call had been ball and the catcher had requested the appeal likely the home plate umpire would have asked for the help yes but the baseball rules say you can only appeal ball and not strike there was decision made the umpire regarding appeal once called strike the call could not changed thought that the umpire did the right thing pablo iglesias ruth ece jhu edu
rec.sport.baseball	game length was braves update article apr wvnvms wvnet edu nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes however what with this policy trying speed the games you are the first person non mediot have seen endorse this policy have problem with the length games all and tired the espn crowd and other announcers bitching about have never been ballpark filled with people looking their watches and shouting hurry cough big bucks for ticket don mind game that last more than really don understand major league baseball trying expand its appeal people with shorter attention spans the football crowd invariably all the arguments from people who don like watch baseball say the same thing the games are too long and too boring baseball trying find way shorten the games for wider appeal you look though baseball games last around the same amount time football games the difference that there more action that duration football games perhaps there were more action baseball games you would get more those fans tune anyway coming with solution make baseball more appealing bigger crowd going difficult soapbox yet another reason get commisioner now since obvious that ruling baseball comittee works about fast snail race nebraska off soapbox steve steve conroy conroy terminus saic com gone man solid gone science applications baloo international corporation
rec.sport.baseball	how speed games marginally realistic article she lkf ucdavis edu chip ucdavis edu gary built like villanueva huckabay writes you want speed ballgames enforce the two minutes between innings many fields are allowing three minutes between them fifteen seconds before commercials are gone thirty before action begins upon the return the game two minutes last out first pitch ball called don grant time batters just because they want they may get pissed first but they get line once anything the pitcher throws while they adjusting their wristbands strike mandate rule permitting only seconds between pitches the current rule too lenient and then enforce fifteen seconds more than enough time the pitch isn released call ball and restart the clock only ever seen this called once back around think that steve carlton was pitching the other hand not sure how much effect this would have seems that most the time lost when there are runners base and the rule does not cover this have wondered why pitcher given pitches when enters the game let serious the relief pitcher has normally been throwing out the bullpen for few minutes does really need more pitches pablo iglesias ruth ece jhu edu
rec.sport.baseball	game length was braves update ecaxron ariel lerc nasa gov ron graham writes hesitate make assumptions about other people when they write but neither you two sound though you have kids and you may not have spouses either wonder why you say that don see why having spouse and kids would have anything with might you brought your kids the game and wanted them get home time get bed reasonable hour which case probably decide take kids games weekends many people else prepared leave the game early but from what you say later you don bring your kids your spouse the game happens have husband but kids and husband usually attends games with extra innings could put well past midnight even without extra innings the score beyond can see family that night all the next day workday may have bag that well can see problem you don bring your wife the ballgame but that problem even the game goes trim hours far bagging work the next day don really understand why that necessary unless going game also means that you consume vast quantities beer note that this the case for many guys you don think you can get work after long evening out then don have long evenings out during the week all that stuff enters into consideration even going game you say you don care about whether the game sped impo you are saying you don care where the time goes and that the game for people who don have families and don have get for work the next day look pay between and apiece for tickets plus for parking plus spending time and energy driving and from boston plus spending additional money concessions etc the ballpark then see going game considerable investment time and money can afford lot games hence going game big deal like going play opera maybe you have more money than and can games all year long not such big deal for you but not interested having games sped any more than want have die walkure cut down convenient weeknight version two hours felt that going night game during the week would interfere with family life work life then choose weekend game impo heather hhenderson vax clarku edu
rec.sport.baseball	game length was braves update article apr wvnvms wvnet edu nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes agree that hirschbeck was just doing what was instructed and also that gant should have listened him however what with this policy trying speed the games you are the first person non mediot have seen endorse this policy wholeheartedly endorse have problem with the length games all and tired the espn crowd and other announcers bitching about have never been ballpark filled with people looking their watches and shouting hurry cough big bucks for ticket don mind game that last more than really don understand haven been many games have you seriously don mind baseball game that lasts long time lasts long time because there good baseball being played however don like games that take hours because there lot dead time going that game don find anything exciting about watching batter pitcher wander around between pitches watching the catcher make slow walk the mound watching lots pitcher changes for good reason whitey herzog used the master this the game could way out reach and still making switches for platoon advantage want see the game not people standing around don really enjoy watching nfl football games person for example because there much dead time you don really notice how much dead time there you watch television because they busy showing you replays don like that college basketball games have many time outs the end the game the ncaa has made some moves try alleviate this problem for next year they going stop the clock after made baskets late games next year and they going second clock there also difference how tolerant long games watching them the tube and going there person for going game has become major commitment time one that not willing make that often the length their games costing the revenue from sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	braves update article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes since time immemorial batters have complained about calls have pitchers and catchers however batters didn use for strolls after bad calls the degree they now unless the league notified teams this year about not allowing complaints hirschbeck was acting against expectations everyone was told the new emphasis speeding games the rule that hirschbeck invoked has been the books long time not gant was hirschbeck face nobody including hirschbeck ever said was when gant turned away hirschbeck immediately motioned for gant step into the box imo this point time hirschbeck was determined show gant exactly who was charge this game gant wasn dawdling hadn had chance dawdle and hirschbeck was simply exercising power play that your perhaps colored your partisanship the braves perception hirschbeck view was that gant was heading off for long walk and accordance with his instructions concerning speeding games directed him into the batter box gant resisted many might what thought was unreasonable request and hirschbeck called for the pitch the point based the rulebook and the umpires instructions was not unreasonable request the braves were already upset imo any game where you remember the name the umpire was bad game for the umpire had gant done instructed you wouldn have remembered the name the umpire sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris article apr ramsey laurentian maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes btw definitions the best player the one who does the most things help his team win will allow that this could vary depending who else the team having aptitudes one team needs more than others well then given your definition best not conceivable that alfredo griffin could bring something team that that team needs win while larkin might not have that something the team needs not find this conceivable also cannot conceive the possibility that there any hypothetical team which morris would help more than clemens would griffin then better than larkin given your premise yes but you are alone your ability conceive that premise valentine
rec.sport.baseball	modest request finding the volume stuff rec sport baseball overwhelming posts day effect this that backlog builds and many posts get dumped from system could probably fix that but don have the time read them all any event guess that mine common problem have some ideas that would help each person generally post more than one article day limit the extent which previous posts are reproduced posts don post mindless woofs anti woofs the jays are best the jays suck don respond mindless posts jack morris better pitcher than frank viola because won world series know that you can use the key get these posts but they bump interesting posts from disk use the goddamn shift key etc makes your posts easier read name jim rising mail dept zoology univ toronto toronto ontario canada uucp uunet attcan utzoo rising bitnet rising zoo utoronto
rec.sport.baseball	the mystery ron gant any you experts want analyze ron gant his early season slump because still swinging his bat the way was last year trying hit all fields etc has changed his swing back the old gant and just small early season slump his spot int lineup even secure especially the way has been hitting msilverm nyx edu cubs one likes believe the freedom baseball geddy lee
rec.sport.baseball	ray lankford question does anybody know what going with lankford know was out for few games with slight injury but since has beenback and before the injury for that matter has been really struggling the plate and the basepaths whereis the ray lankford saw last year msilverm nyx edu cubs one likes believe the freedom baseball geddy lee
rec.sport.baseball	relative value players article lww world std com jle world std com joe leonard writes always thought that reasonable means measuring value between players was attempt determine team would trade one for another the major problem with this analysis that ignores age even morris were performing well clemens right now and were likely this season nobody would trade clemens for morris straight because clemens has more his career left sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	best first basemen don mattingly the best first baseman the history baseball always has been always will
rec.sport.baseball	braves giants case study their weaknesses article apr bnlux bnl gov kyee bnlux bnl gov kenton yee writes sunday game exposed the weaknesses both teams quite clearly and that the braves are vulnerable braves weaknesses weak defense couple bond doubles and bloop clayton would been caught better outfield weak bullpen their closers are bedrosian and howell not astute observation this straw bullpen the lefties stanton mercker are strong and wohlers down learning new pitch the bullpen fine probably superior over reliance pendleton pendleton slump becomes team slump also false gant nixon justice hunter blauser present decent enough offense everyone slumping except blauser not just pendleton btw what the story with brian hunter the dog house paul collacchi
rec.sport.baseball	texas rangers roster please help need little help from texas rangers expert was yankee stadium sunday texas rout with kids wandered out the outfield during rangers batting practice and caught ball tossed into the stands actually wrestled some guy bit might add the rangers who looked like bullpen assistant type youngish think was not the roster listed the yankee scorecard any ideas please mail haven been reading regularly thanks bob name bob dorin company kendall square research email dorin ksr com ksr dorin
rec.sport.baseball	how speed games marginally realistic pablo iglesias pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu wrote have wondered why pitcher given pitches when enters the game let serious the relief pitcher has normally been throwing out the bullpen for few minutes does really need more pitches the relief pitcher didn get pitches there wouldn enough time play hit the road jack the iron city relief pitcher commercial the announcers detail exactly what drove the previous one from the game detailed biography both personal and statistical the new guy throwing his pitches get really cool super slo pictures for diamond vision put said pitchers name and stats caleb
rec.sport.baseball	jewish broadcasters was jewish baseball players let not forget michaels you believe miracles fame jim
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris qvag innsvo lynx unm edu kbos carina unm edu mitchell bose writes article apr ramsey laurentian maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes manuel lee better than jeff blauser again you had lee your team last year you would wearing ring this year yes manny lee was your team last year your team would have been the toronto blue jays team the albuquerque leftturns manny lee were team would not wearing ring nor would however were manny lee team again manny lee was your team last year your team would not have been the albuquerque leftturns would have been the toronto blue jays the toronto blue jays might well wearing ring not that that such big deal everybody got ring from the jays win that the whole point isn clemens didn get ring but morris did the same way the blue jays did not win because jack morris was the team jack morris won because was the blue jays was team effort not individual one exactly and morris was part the team would the jays have won with clemens will never know but know that the jays won with morris how could you possibly say that clemens had better year pitcher baseball could have had better year than morris had last year cordially always maynard ramsey laurentian many morons and little time
rec.sport.baseball	the real way speed ballgames the real way speed ballgames for each home park owner offer the following schedule bonuses players both teams for all players who participated the game offer for each minutes less than hours the game took the game only took hours each player gets bonus for all pitchers throwing more full innings the game extrapolate the number pitches attempted pickoffs the number they would have thrown full innings and offer for each number less than the pitcher throws complete game with pitches and throws first would get suspect you could finance this the same way presidential campaigns are paid for offer each fan checkoff his her ticket that says want the price this ticket towards fast game bonuses domain tahorsley csd harris com usmail tom horsley uucp uunet hcx tahorsley kingbird circle delray beach censorship the only form obscenity wait forgot government tobacco subsidies
rec.sport.baseball	let play the name game chicago wait til next years new york bunch egos with chemistrys philedelphia overacheivers until mitch williams blows games pittsburg cheapskates montreal canadiens love that name louis cardinals how boring miami marlins try telling tampa stpete that the marlins are florida san diego she going down men and children firsters los angeles disables listers san francisco get past number five and you are fines cincinatti underacheivers atlanta bills colorado pitching baseballers houston astonomicals new york steinbrenners boston wow firsters cleveland good hit pitchers detroit lions hey they score every game also toronto god does jack morris stinkers baltimore have great park and bankrupt owners milwaukee don drink the water drink the beer insteaders kansas city god not againers oakland gezz did the eck blow saves texas bashers california won win but sure hell tryers seattle griffeys chicago find way lose agains minnesota marshmallow domers msilverm nyx edu cubs one likes believe the freedom baseball geddy lee
rec.sport.baseball	jays darrin jackson nightmare article apr node hub org shadow node hub org jay chu writes jackson bum and thought the jays were smart get rid gruber now get equally bad frustrated pat gillick over rated sure did some good moves the past but releasing wells although his temper sucks but better than morris stewart dayley the jays were dumping salaries keep mill jackson dayley should the one before wells course they dumped dayley but too late since dayley salary was guarenteed with wells the jays were only the hook for give jackson break lost about pounds with that flu had when was traded wells was already claimed the tigers era with wins also the jimmy key and winfield situations pissed the hell outta would you see championship club wanting repeat badly wanted have such would rather have molitor than winfield winfield was just hogging all the credit and was trying soak the jays for year guarenteed contract great turnover way look the pittsburg penguins they got some aging players but didn make stupid trades dump them cuz the fans love those players and they are still the core the team anyways just want say that the jays below this season won surprised not jumping off the bandwagon just talking smart baseball matter what still going see most the jays games even though damn frustrated the jays pitching can only get better molitor and alomar haven hit anything yet and the jays are still over gerald
rec.sport.baseball	let play the name game how about changing team names post your choices here start how about the baltimore baseblazers san francisco quakes shawn rangers
rec.sport.baseball	red sox mailing list query article sfoixme qbulsk andrew cmu edu robert ward andrew cmu edu writes friend england looking for red sox mailing list you know such list could you please send mail with some info thank you bosox request world std com mail the list bosox world std com steve
rec.sport.baseball	yankee thoughts yes everyone seems agreement that the yankees are finally moving the right direction they should finish over this year and maybe even the pennent race august however would take back few moves the jim abbott trade think abbott not only inspirational person but great pitcher also could win the young this year but won because the right side the yanks infield isn good enough why was this not good trade snow how many rookies have been able step and immediately have the impact that has had far the angels know early but you seen this kid hit field talk you can just tell that going tremendous player the yanks should have kept him what about mattingly you ask well great that the yanks have taken care him and remained loyal but years older than snow and just doesn have the same bat speed before his back injury shame but yankee fan who wants see the best yankee team take snow over mattingly first the yanks also gave two promising propects with snow for abbott besides with domingo jean brien taylor wickman militello and sterling hitchcock they are just loaded with propects know abbotts only but this was too much give believe george forced this trade because believes and right that abbott will big hit however like see the yankees build baseball team not amusement show wade boggs live boston and like wade lot but his career winding down and would rather see the yanks start develop long term solution hensley muelins russ davis velarde besides wade just doesn have any range what shame about charlie hayes huh spike owen see wade boggs much rather see them develop dave silvestri whoever wade and spike next each other the infield going raise the yankee staff era point and these guys are the down sides their careers danny tartabull yes put some tremendous numbers and nice think about what could were ever healthy all year but never should expect games max out him meanwhile gerald williams playing columbus and paul neil playing left field believe neil led outfielders assists last year and tartabull poor defensive outfielder what basically getting the yanks are moving the right direction but are not ready win pennent this year they should the level planning for world series this means getting the younger players experience the majors now they will ready year two afraid that all this stuff wreaks george steinbrenner certainly the boggs deal was all george looks like george planning the right mix veterans and young players win world series now the veterans are always available and can added any time like boston did this year develop the young players first then add the one two veterans the yankees case just keep them let all yankee fans hope that george doesn dismantle the terrific job stick and company have done building the yankee organization back into one respect really afraid that will trade whoever takes patch holes today relief pitching for example george must realize that the yankees rebuilding process still one two years away have patience george and will all enjoy the future fire bucky and trade the kids and baseball hell for all loyal yankee fans for long time sam not militello millitello mandelbaum
rec.sport.baseball	mlb nba article rvesterm vma edu rvesterm vma edu writes article mssc qrrz netcom com mss netcom com mark singer says why would owners decrease ticket prices when they obviously get lots people pay the price they asking don think that obvious that lots people are willing pay the price sure someone out there net land has some facts about trends attendance regarding percentage capacity sold but even the trends are relatively flat you have consider what happening team team basis when the money dries franchises will seeking supplant the lost revenues from alternative sources one the best sources may ticket sales example the dodgers the dodgers can count strong base season ticket sales and probably believe that they have the ability raise prices without hindering revenues certainly think that true example the padres they will lucky average fans game this year they raise prices less they want increase their overall revenue base the best thing they can put winning team the field but given that won happen won they can probably make more money lowering ticket prices and running frequent promotions will they that have idea but they won increase prices because won work for them even assuming that you have some strange power make the owners decrease ticket prices that does not decrease the contract the only strange powers work here are the forces the market place each team market somewhat different and each owner going faced with unique set circumstances about how deal with those market forces buiness manager would never want lower prices but sometimes that strategy necessary and sometimes works you have consider everything you want continued success the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	game length was braves update article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes haven been many games have you there also difference how tolerant long games watching them the tube and going there person for going game has become major commitment time one that not willing make that often the length their games costing the revenue from stopped going games some years ago while still lived inthe bay area for exactly this reason believe the length their games has been institutionalized larussa duncan they encourage their pitchers overly deliberate throw first often study the catchers signals and and almost every hitter takes step out the box after every pitch this not imo coincidence this planned and hate for the gant situation did not see the game the replays but wonder what gant had requested time out would hirschbeck have been required give him could have denied the requst for all the ump knew gant could have had dirt his eye mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	moe berg npr this morning had interview with linda mccarthy name possibly garbled official historian for the cia she has won emmy for research moe berg for documentary which know from nothing but which sounds good she said that among other things berg was the principal spy for the oss cia wwii precursor spying axis atomic programs because his physics background and language skills she said that during the war met with heisenberg switzerland and had instructions shoot heisenberg the germans were close bomb research concluded they were two years behind and didn shoot him have heard elsewhere that heisenberg deliberately misled the nazi bomb program but don know how reliable this unfortunately npr didn mention any kind book she writing certainly buy case you wondering about baseball relevance berg was longtime mlb backup catcher was member mlb all star team that toured japan presumably not because his baseball prowess but because was one the few americans much less mlb players who spoke japanese photos took tokyo that trip were later used plan bombing raids according mccarthy dave
rec.sport.baseball	game length was braves update article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes stuff about ron gant incident deleted reasonable umpire would been instructed this season get the batters back the box sooner try cut down the ridiculous length games for one glad see this happen agree that hirschbeck was just doing what was instructed and also that gant should have listened him however what with this policy trying speed the games you are the first person non mediot have seen endorse this policy have problem with the length games all and tired the espn crowd and other announcers bitching about have never been ballpark filled with people looking their watches and shouting hurry cough big bucks for ticket don mind game that last more than really don understand games are longer now for several reasons more pitching changes more basestealing and throws first etc think very small factor the increased time takes jose canseco deion sanders insert fancy showboat ballplayer here arrange their jewelry prior stepping the batter box impression that sportcasters and writers have made this issue because they like shorter games they get head back hotel bar eat steaks get drunk tell stupid jokes with their pals and chase stewardesses around the bar sure they want the game over with print journalists have slightly more legitimate reason for wanting faster games they have deadlines the espn guys baseball tonight drive crazy they constantly harp this primarily because they often have work late when the game goes longer than maybe just well with nothing better but would like hear reasons why the longer games upset you parenthetical note seems the league any case fighting losing battle this year the increased offense thus far will certainly spoil any hopes getting the games over with more quickly nick flynn
rec.sport.baseball	dopson pitches first shutout red sox win cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes jmann vineland pubs stratus com jim mann writes john dopson pitched his first major league shutout the red sox beat the white sox all sox runs came the inning which featured big hits from among others vaughan and greenwell the sox are now and the first team the majors win games yes never last but god good while here someone told this game started cdt this true who their right mind would game monday well there holiday massachusetts called patriots day three things happen patriots day almost all businesses are closed the sox play morning game and they run the boston marathon mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com there nothing deadly not hold people the opportunity great and wonderful things wish stimulate them active way harold urey nobel laureate chemistry
rec.sport.baseball	hbp big cat kubey sgi com ken kubey writes and finally like point out that many high obp guys draw their walks more because pitchers are afraid throw strike them than because they have great eye this comes periodically and just don get take for example mark mcgwire walked times that not potential great example what you talking about then don know what now let look what happens when mcgwire doesn walk the time made out the time hit single the time hit double the time hit homer now you pitching against mcgwire would you trade walks for homers double singles and outs would why give him the base when you can get him out times out then there are guys like alex cole who has career obp even though never had batting average over did hit hit single home run yep that right never hit homer through the end who afraid throw strike him mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com never been prejudiced sex entertained yes but never prejudiced justice dan snow walter matthau
rec.sport.baseball	mvp revisited tim shippert recently posted summaries last year defensive average stats terms the linear weights estimated run value defensive performances compared league average combined those with position adjusted mlv numbers come with first approximation total run values for players last year can use these springboard for reconsideration the mvp award major caveats these numbers include defensive park adjustment san diego really just question odd scoring gopher holes the infield that will cause some inaccuracies the offensive numbers are position adjusted but not park adjusted have deflate some and inflate others fair finally still don know what about catchers and have idea how evaluate the defensive contributions tony phillips and bip roberts having said that there are still some surprises let look national league first all numbers total runs contributed over the season player offense defense total sandberg bonds walker justice daulton larkin grace see these are the legitimate mvp candidates from last season you deflate sandberg offense wee bit for playing wrigley you get essentially dead heat had bonds been his usual defensive self wouldn have been close but that apparently wasn the case darren daulton needs more defensive runs make the offensive difference and couldn tell you whether that easy impossible good case could made for any sandberg bonds daulton top dude personal vote bonds sandberg daulton walker justice the american league player offense defense total ventura martinez anderson thomas henderson raines tettleton let see show hands how many you picked robin ventura top player the last year certainly didn but have hard time arguing against him this point yes know these numbers are only approximate but that big gap between him and the guy also those you who thought rickey henderson stank last year are out your minds once again there catcher the ointment calling game important might runs easy make give away take guess folks don think can any better than that personal vote excluding pitchers ventura tettleton anderson martinez henderson big frank thomas fan but have admit bias favor balanced offensive defensive contribution which should have higher leverage record than equal shift that lots offense with negative defense for the record carlos baerga roberto alomar forget wash let also take this opportunity admit that was grossly wrong regarding don mattingly defense this past season don recovered brilliantly from his weak and end with mattingly runs which clearly above average first baseman however still runs behind mark mcgwire runs behind frank thomas and runs behind john olerud the other hand ahead rafael palmeiro cecil fielder and every other first baseman not yet mentioned david tate dtate pitt edu greetings sir with bat not quick member iie orsa tims sabr hands not soft eye not discerning and denver they call you slugger the big catullus galarraga and compare you own mattingly
rec.sport.baseball	red sox choke contest encourage the great tradition red sox negativism having contest predict the magnitude the sox fall from their current heights you must decide first whether the sox will again any time during this year then you must predict either their record the first time they they are their final record they stay above the rest the year valentine earlier prediction would resend you were serious val espn pointed out last night that the last sox start better than this was when they finished sixth place email your guess either barring washington edu directly replying this post entries close pdt wed apr dave
rec.sport.baseball	game length was braves update article apr vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes however what with this policy trying speed the games you are the first person non mediot have seen endorse this policy have problem with the length games all and tired the espn crowd and other announcers bitching about have never been ballpark filled with people looking their watches and shouting hurry cough big bucks for ticket don mind game that last more than really don understand agree with nick what the big deal about long games you want watch baseball there that much more baseball watch and yes baseball includes the space between plays well the plays themselves first longer game way suggests more baseball watch unless you include watching the grass grow baseball the lengthier games are because batters stepping out the box pitchers taking longer between pitches and excessive trips the mound managers and pitching coaches and while true that the gaps between plays can interesting this only true when they don become extra long quickly pitched games can grab and hold your attention much better bring back the two hour baseball game and the three and half hour golf game with michael zimmers voice softhelp suppliers software developers data
rec.sport.baseball	lame dumb and useless question article rvesterm vma edu rvesterm vma edu writes there are three balls this batter the pitcher proceeds bean the batter that walk hit pitch bob vesterman hbp but reminds favorite apochryphal don drysdale story when ordered intentionally walk batter who had hot dogged him two previous bats drysdale reared back with the first pitch and drilled him right the ribs his manager came storming out the dugout and yelled what did you that for drysdale growled back what are you complaining for saved you three pitches incidentally this true love know the other people involved ted kury one man stands and the wall cracks and the wall suny buffalo cracks and the wall cracks and the wall comes dept economics crumbling down anthrax
rec.sport.baseball	how speed games marginally realistic chip ucdavis edu gary built like villanova huckabay said baseball games take about the and just shade under hours the that just too damn long don like play hour games much less watch game for that long butt falls asleep and watching channel surf between pitches catching colorized versions leave beaver and those wacky nieporents nick nite but gary for certain sofa tubers like myself this advantage can watch the pirates kbl the mets wwor the braves tbs and the mediots espn the same time without missing anything something impressive happens catch the replay see essentially games hours instead game hours what deal insert smileys desired david tate dtate pitt edu greetings sir with bat not quick member iie orsa tims sabr hands not soft eye not discerning and denver they call you slugger the big catullus galarraga and compare you own mattingly
rec.sport.baseball	relative value players article lww world std com jle world std com joe leonard writes before folks jump let ask the net would the jays have won the with good pitcher from aaa place morris given his run support how about average pitcher can believe that morris performance the playoffs and series had large positive impact the jays performance know very trendy nowadays dump morris but let give credit where credit due doubtful that the blue jays would have won the east without morris last year when the team went for the month august and all the other starters were being shelled and milwaukee was making charge morris went with pretty good era can remember exactly also let not underestimate the importance his innings save the bullpen every fifth day didn help win the east forget about the pennent and the world series his run support was high runs but was stottlemyer runs and won only games remember morris winning inordinate number and ballgames but this his credit pitched only good needed when was ballgame just put cruise control and threw the ball there and let the batters get themseleves out hate this expression inexperienced pitcher would wear himself out trying make perfect pitches keep his era down but morris being veteran pitcher knows that winning the only thing that really matters baseball saving himself was able reach back for that little extra hate this too when the game was the line yes morris crapping out big time this year but let not change history suit the present btw think should put the bullpen would embarrassing veteran pitcher which cito would never but his era how much more can embarrassed from where sit let others have the excellent players settle for good enough and the ring ditto joe leonard jle world std com eddie
rec.sport.baseball	jays darrin jackson nightmare give jackson break lost about pounds with that flu had when was traded was popular player san diego derek bell was not faring well the clubhouse toronto matter how bad looks now still think was steal for the jays just from the perspective team chemistry statistic can describe sorry statheads and since there are many new faces the clubhouse think the jays are still trying find insert the same comment into the jack morris clemens ring string yet first was sad see derek still anticipating all the talent they raved about the beginning last season glad see him faring well for the padres though eric
rec.sport.baseball	braves giants case study their weaknesses article pyramid pyramid com pcollac pyrnova mis pyramid com paul collacchi writes btw what the story with brian hunter the dog house paul collacchi brian hurt his hand think started saturday game but was taken out far too early populate the dog house although bedrock was seen with milkbone read that memory and process russell earnest georgia institute technology atlanta georgia uucp allegra amd hplabs seismo ngp gatech prism arpa russell earnest housing gatech edu
rec.sport.baseball	moe berg barring washington edu david barrington writes npr this morning had interview with linda mccarthy name possibly garbled official historian for the cia she has won emmy for research moe berg for documentary which know from nothing but which sounds good she said that among other things berg was the principal spy for the oss cia wwii precursor spying axis atomic programs because his physics background and language skills she said that during the war met with heisenberg switzerland and had instructions shoot heisenberg the germans were close bomb research concluded they were two years behind and didn shoot him have heard elsewhere that heisenberg deliberately misled the nazi bomb program but don know how reliable this unfortunately npr didn mention any kind book she writing certainly buy dave there great book out called they also served which about the ballplayers during wwii there some info berg there also has info pete gray one armed outfielder and other players the era because the draft many players during the war were those who were exempt from the draft for medical reasons there are some very interesting stories the book very well written and would suggest reading anyone with interest baseball rob koffler you live day day and rkoffler cso uiuc edu dream about tomorrow don henley
rec.sport.baseball	seeking all star game info first apologies for perhaps being untimely with this subject material and perhaps overly optimistic request but here goes anyhow very interested finding out how might able get two tickets for the all star game baltimore this year very aged folks live about miles away and know would great thing for them attend the game went with them and grandfather who got into baseball small child the all star game many years ago although now the bay area love able treat folks this game absolutely the last chance they ever have attend this ame locally any info would greatly appreciated mary cole mcole informix com
rec.sport.baseball	how speed games marginally realistic article she lkf ucdavis edu chip ucdavis edu gary built like villanueva huckabay writes you want speed ballgames mandate rule permitting only seconds between pitches the current rule too lenient and then enforce fifteen seconds more than enough time the pitch isn released call ball and restart the clock remember post from last year indicating that pitch clock was tried one the minor leagues some time back and did not work don remember why they said that did not work anyone remember this jody mcdonnel wip phil has been saying that pitch clock was inevitable how would pitch clock work throws first another pair suggestions remove the balk rule the runners responsibility stay safe matter what the pitcher does pitcher throws occupied base more than time without successfully picking off the runner the runner advances base walked the balk seems give the pitcher the advantage the base walk allows the runner challenge pitcher throw over the base baseball games take about the and just shade under hours the that just too damn long don like play hour games much less watch game for that long butt falls asleep and watching channel surf between pitches catching colorized versions leave beaver and those wacky nieporents nick nite too find myself surfing when know that will enough time between each pitch allow the batter adjust his jewlery gary huckabay you think that loud enough hole movie rights well you having trouble hearing sir available thru happy turn for you didn ted frank know that many people your age liked king david madden
rec.sport.baseball	cardinals mailing list article poe husc harvard edu poe husc harvard edu leslie poe writes likewise would love know about cardinals mailing list please mail you have any information thanks lot les poe poe husc harvard edu this the fifth request find out about cardinals mailing list looks like one does not exist anyone has the initiative creating list might worthwhile activity sam passer
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris article apr ramsey laurentian maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes sfve murdoch acc virginia edu drw delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker writes some comments deleted for bandwidth god knows need baseball team game but made individual talents absurd judge the success failure individual the success failure his teammates whom did not choose least most cases morris won last year because played team with joe carter robby alomar tom henke juan guzman john olerud clemens lost because was surrounded such lesser performers herm winninham luis rivera and jeff reardon define the quality the team sum its components albeit imperfectly lesser error than defining the quality individual the mean quality the team reading your arguments suggests you not trying define the quality individual least not for the purpose ranking them toronto won with olerud they might have won with fielder they might not have won with thomas detroit might have won with thomas chicago might have won with fielder you can rank these individuals you can only look who might contribute more the team effort which winning the thomas could not have contributed that goal any more than olerud cannot say that olerud less player roger here question for you say you are running expansion team you don have team the moment but the draft coming who are you going pick guys who have won the most rings guys who could contribute the most your team say the reds were dumb enough not protect larkin and the jays didn protect alfredo who would you pick can believe getting involved this john cordially always maynard ramsey laurentian many morons and little time
rec.sport.baseball	the real way speed ballgames article tom apr amber ssd csd harris com tom ssd csd harris com tom horsley writes the real way speed ballgames for each home park owner offer the following schedule bonuses players both teams details deleted suspect you could finance this the same way presidential campaigns are paid for offer each fan checkoff his her ticket that says want the price this ticket towards fast game bonuses great fans can subsidize the cost speeding the games that don want see sped terrific forgot checking off that box finance presidential campaigns doesn cost taxpayers anything you believe the tooth fairy too the beastmaster sorry hate sarcastic such beautiful day mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	mlb nba article kbanaian bernard pitzer claremont edu kbanaian bernard pitzer claremont edu king banaian writes there absolutely positively quite verifiably causation that runs from salaries ticket prices the two are separable decisions the owners not raise ticket prices recoup costs they raise ticket prices because demand for seats has risen wish had bold type for that for more evidence please come intro econ course somewhere around lecture four sunk costs opportunity costs marginal costs right ticket prices are set maximize revenue period for excellent discussion how this works see gerald scully book couple years back titled think the business baseball will stretch farm animal beyond its natural length paula koufax com paul andresen hewlett packard home mckinley corvallis sabr member since
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris apr stsci edu sandoval stsci edu writes roger here question for you say you are running expansion team you don have team the moment but the draft coming who are you going pick guys who have won the most rings guys who could contribute the most your team say the reds were dumb enough not protect larkin and the jays didn protect alfredo who would you pick for expansion team pretty sure would with the rings long their salaries and ages weren too high would want the fans able identify the players would like championship attitude the clubhouse for larkin and griffin salaries aside would have consider which player likeliest contribute victory past performance age and attitude would all integral decision certainly wouldn just haul out copy gillete and pick larkin many others would and unlike many others who post this group hardly consider myself quali fied make those kinds decisions can believe getting involved this have never been able believe about myself tell you the truth like banging your head against stone wall cordially always maynard ramsey laurentian many morons and little time
rec.sport.baseball	usa today ftp site article qgld dut swarthmore edu rbrooks swarthmore edu robert brooks writes wiawkph dutrun tudelft hart writes sometime ago someone mentioned ftp site run usa today that should give scores for last night games can some kind soul mail that address please thanks anyone knows such site could they please send also thanks dan acsddc umassd edu
rec.sport.baseball	red sox mailing list query article sfoixme qbulsk andrew cmu edu robert ward andrew cmu edu writes friend england looking for red sox mailing list you know such list could you please send mail with some info thank you would veru interested also there one could someone please send some info dan acsddc umassd edu
rec.sport.baseball	jays darrin jackson nightmare article smzy bde nrl navy mil klinker itd nrl navy mil eric klinker says was popular player san diego derek bell was not faring well the clubhouse toronto matter how bad looks now still think was steal for the jays just from the perspective team chemistry statistic can describe sorry statheads and since there are many new faces the clubhouse think the jays are still trying find insert the same comment into the jack morris clemens ring string laugh you now and will laugh you again equally publicly when the jays finish third due the severe depletion their talent think bill james put best about sparky anderson abstract there are million guys this country with great attitudes but there are only about five hundred who can play major league brand baseball which are you going take tom hyer
rec.sport.baseball	braves update article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes since time immemorial batters have complained about calls have pitchers and catchers however batters didn use for strolls after bad calls the degree they now really think that this the key point when saw the incident baseball tonight sunday couldn believe how far away from the plate gant went then casually leaned against his bat don blame the umpire all for telling the pitcher pitch the worst part the whole incident was the braves coming out onto the field what were they going attack the umpire the only people who should been out there were cox and maybe the coaches but players agree with the person who posted before that cox should suspended for having control over his team john
rec.sport.baseball	braves update apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes that been thrown out and gant had legitimate beef about the pitch that was called strike reasonable umpire would not have tried force gant back into the box that situation reasonable umpire would been instructed this season get the batters back the box sooner try cut down the ridiculous length games for one glad see this happen and hope more umpires will hirschbeck did instructing the pitcher pitch the batter won get back the box while can see why they want cut down the time spent walking around gant wasn ordered back the box sooner was ordered back immediately soon stepped out hirschbeck told him get back the box now gant doesn take lot walks between pitches the only reason did then because was very bothered the call expect his concentration wasn there yet and crucial situation imagine best calm possible contributing factors would gant bad day the plate bad year the plate and the braves long scoring drought now pretty stupid ahead and talk the walk when the umpire telling you get there you know the umpire going something call for strike throw you out etc gant was wrong but hirschbeck was more wrong biased view aside from the major chip seemed have his shoulder what was the problem gant had reason want some time disputed strike call gant hadn been wasting time all game the game had been cruising along and was just over two hours old the score was with outs the ninth and runner scoring position there any reason hirschbeck couldn and shouldn cut gant little slack for discernible constructive reason hirschbeck disrupted the game caused five minute delay and materially hurt the batter key situation did have date get and still wonder why terry was tossed earlier the game dale stephenson steph uiuc edu baseball fanatic considered good look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	skydome tix plan being the toronto area sometime this summer late june early july and would like attend blue jay game would appreciate anyone could give information how obtain tickets for blue jay games would prefer get good seats and assume this would require going through some ticket broker and paying ticket broker info for the toronto area and ticket info directly through the blue jays would appreciated bring oxygen need schedule flexible any games are candidates though prefer see texas thanks advance tony
rec.sport.baseball	fenway does anybody know the for ticket info for fenway thanks eugene rhim dartmouth edu
rec.sport.baseball	harry caray article oasys navy mil odell oasys navy mil bernard dell writes being old time cardinal fan now relocated the nva area can recall that harry was not all popular with old man busch who understand fired him and kicked him out louis not quite sure the reasons but the old man was certainly not enraptured ole harry bern dell grew listening harry carey call the cardinals games and really liked him then but recall was fired because was too critical read honest when was announcing dared point out the cards miscues and such least this what remember from when was kid kay jones
rec.sport.baseball	harry caray article oasys navy mil odell oasys navy mil bernard farmer the dell writes being old time cardinal fan now relocated the nva area can recall that harry was not all popular with old man busch who understand fired him and kicked him out louis not quite sure the reasons but the old man was certainly not enraptured ole harry but maybe his wife was don claim know whether true not but couple different people totally unrelated have said harry was relieved his duties because had more than platonic relations with augie busch wife judgement left the individual cuz sure don claim impeachable source this case dave hung like jim acker slider kirsch blue jays again kirsch staff umn edu new quotes out context not beat dead horse but been couple weeks this disappoints punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence
rec.sport.baseball	defensive runs from comments article qvdrninnd gap caltech edu shippert cco caltech edu tim shippert writes the reason bothered doing this stuff was see could determine the answer the age old question jeff blauser more valuable than rafael belliard well looks like just doug trumped tim beating him the net with his defensive analyses tim has gotten ahead the way was doing was little different being course used equivalent averages work out how many runs player was worth and calculated both rate performance fielding equivalent average and total performance fielding equivalent runs but compared not the average player but the replacement player and here why because the positional adjustment comes built the system the the average runs above replacement rar may quibble with the exact numbers but the order looks substantially right the equivalent average have always set league average had decided hitting that the replacement level batter has eqa the name that replacement level hitter often not billy ripken decided let the replacement level fielder the same distance from but the opposite direction have set that makes for eqa yes can add runs are proportional eqa squared the difference between squared and squared equals the difference squared and rounded off for simplicity all replacement fielding team would have randy milligan first willie randolph second leo gomez third walt weiss short kevin bass left hojo center and eric anthony right ugh the total number rar for player the sum his batting and fielding rar can rate them total rar rar per some number batting outs like average player has total rar about batting fielding total rar bat field bonds ventura sandberg thomas van slyke anderson grace raines lankford puckett pendleton alomar finley martinez bagwell mack butler mcgwire sheffield griffey larkin devereaux grissom henderson walker listach justice lofton clark baerga kruk white smith palmeiro gwynn sierra hollins carter bell gonzalez notable entries per batting out rating top are bonds sandberg van slyke grace larkin justice sheffield one each position measured mcgriff despite batting rar fifth league finishes out the top due fielding last position galarraga stillwell hansen belliard blauser gad league may dascenzo anthony the much maligned rickey henderson was worth second only frank thomas ventura edges edgar third grebeck rates potent griffey edges puckett top listach nudges out lofton among rookies and alomar clearly outpoints baerga last position segui sojo palmer lewis polonia cuyler hayes all for now clay
rec.sport.baseball	hbp big cat article mjones fenway mjones donald aix kingston ibm com writes kubey sgi com ken kubey writes and finally like point out that many high obp guys draw their walks more because pitchers are afraid throw strike them than because they have great eye this comes periodically and just don get take for example mark mcgwire walked times that not potential great example what you talking about then don know what now let look what happens when mcgwire doesn walk the time made out the time hit single the time hit double the time hit homer now you pitching against mcgwire would you trade walks for homers double singles and outs would why give him the base when you can get him out times out didn say that pitcher fear throwing strikes guys like mcgwire bonds and frank thomas was rational just said that exists then there are guys like alex cole who has career obp even though never had batting average over did hit hit single home run yep that right never hit homer through the end who afraid throw strike him don know alex cole batting style all some questions how tall does into crouch like rickey hederson pete rose does foul off lot pitches like brett butler does take strikes each bat could the cole has good batting eye look above said that many high obp guys draw their walks because pitchers are afraid throw strike them not all high obp guys ken kubey kubey wpd sgi com
rec.sport.baseball	yankee fears how can anyone pick the worst yankee pitcher the past years there have been many does the name steve you mean should try and throw the ball the catcher trout jonathan alboum uva
rec.sport.baseball	babe pitching can anyone out there tell babe ruth complete pitching stats know was pitcher for the yankees but what were his numbers when was with the red sox thanks advance kris schafer hey sixers lottery pick lottery pick lottery pick phillies give beer give death lets pillage bundy shoe salesman women can live with them pass the beernuts norm barfly
rec.sport.baseball	let play the name game somebody wrote how about changing team names post your choices here start how about the baltimore baseblazers san francisco quakes shawn rangers baltimore baseblazers where the hell did you come with that the orioles are not base stealing team except for anderson besides would never call them anything but the baltimore orioles why the ballpark has all these orthologically spelling error correct baltimore orioles all over the place bet you thought the bird just oriole not the bird was named after lord baltimore when maryland was founded they called baltimore orioles but the post just joke why care what non fan thinks but still wonder where baseblazers came from san diego padres now there name that needs changed how padre being used father priest father parents admiral steve liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu world champions baltimore orioles why not series the yards stanley cup champions washington capitals the bangles are the greatest female rock group that ever existed this sig has been brought you frungy the sport kings god man drilling holes through his head not the answer mccoy
rec.sport.baseball	usa today ftp site there usa today ftp site could someone please post the newsgroup everyone will stop posting the send too articles sure many people woulds like know why not just post the net rather than mailing hundreds people just thought thanks ryan robin robinr prism orst edu
rec.sport.baseball	hbp big cat article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david tate writes kubey sgi com ken kubey said and finally like point out that many high obp guys draw their walks more because pitchers are afraid throw strike them than because they have great eye not sure used think this was true but more and more becoming convinced that the other way around among players with the physical ability hit the ball real hard the patient ones are the ones who get the chance lot let break down the four basic categories hitter according whether they are power threats and whether they walk lot power power patient frank thomas brett butler barry bonds ozzie smith mark mcgwire craig grebeck babe ruth miller huggins ted williams billy hamilton rickey henderson eddie joost joe morgan mike hargrove impatient ernie banks ozzie guillen dave kingman shawon dunston joe carter andres thomas george bell jose lind kirby puckett devon white okay think all agree that singles hitters should take strike two and try get base any way they can the power impatient guys have excuse the power patient guys are doing the right thing now the impatient power guys how could you leave out the big cat would these guys have better slugging percentage they took more pitches perhaps but doubt you tell joe carter there and take few pitches will draw more walks but also won hit many frozen ropes into the bleachers because more likely hold back pitch that used drive the patient power guys joe morgan had small strike zone and rickey henderson has strike zone the size hitler heart they get their walks based the small zone look the other guys thomas bonds mcgwire ruth and williams wow lot pitchers would rather nibble the corners and maybe walk these guys that throw clear strike them the pitchers would better opinion just coming after them with good fastball for strike the first pitch but pitchers would rather nibble and then get hurt ken kubey kubey wpd sgi com
rec.sport.baseball	rule book trivia article maine maine edu ryan robbins maine maine edu writes were the manager argue that the runner was out the base line since was the left the first base line the umps don budge which they won they nev admit when they are wrong file protest with the league rule states interference batter runner when running the last half the distance from home base first base runs outside the three foot line inside the left the foul line and the umpire judgment interferes with the field taking the throw first base the key word the rule and runner isn out just for running out the baseline out for interfering with the fielding the ball throw fielding the throw first because the catcher opted throw the ball over the batter runner head there inter ference what your definition interfering with the fielder taking the throw the rule book certainly doesn have definiton clarification possible interpret the rule saying that the catcher has alter his throw avoid hitting the batter runner then again have interference you know seems that there way apply this rule justly the catcher the pitcher say rob dibble for example throws toward first and hits the runner running inside the baseline the fielder takes the chance being ejected therefore probably would throw around the runner your scenario above him you should note that our american legion league which uses mlb rules interpret the rule say this very circumstance there interference per rule rstimets
rec.sport.baseball	game length was braves update umpires are not required call time out just because player asks for time only extreme cases like dust the pitcher hitter eyes should umpire call time the batter has seconds get situated the box and receive pitch against putting giant clock any size clock for that matter count down seconds between pitches and the minute for warm ups but think umpires should tell hitters hell they step out get the sign whatever and instruct the pitcher pitch the same goes for pitchers umps should tell them pitch feint within seconds ball will called that the way should ryan robbins penobscot hall university maine maine maine edu
rec.sport.baseball	lame dumb and useless question depends the judgment the umpire the batter made attempt avoid getting hit the batter awarded first for base balls the umpire rules did try get out the way awarded first because hit batsman ryan robbins penobscot hall university maine maine maine edu
rec.sport.baseball	how speed games marginally realistic pitchers are required pitch feint attempt pick off within seconds after receiving the ball not pitchers are required pitch their warm throws within one minute time frame beginning after each half inning ends not two minutes and the reason why reliever should allowed warm ups simple different mound different catcher ryan robbins penobscot hall university maine maine maine edu
rec.sport.baseball	relative value players kime mongoose torolab ibm com edward kim writes article lww world std com jle world std com joe leonard writes before folks jump let ask the net would the jays have won the with good pitcher from aaa place morris given his run support how about average pitcher can believe that morris performance the playoffs and series had large positive impact the jays performance know very trendy nowadays dump morris but let give credit where credit due doubtful that the blue jays would have won the east without morris last year when the team went for the month august and all the other starters were being shelled and milwaukee was making charge morris went with pretty good era can remember exactly also let not underestimate the importance his innings save the bullpen every fifth day didn help win the east forget about the pennent and the world series guy who threw innings with about run lower era would have saved the bullpen even more say somebody like frank viola innings his run support was high runs but was stottlemyer runs and won only games remember morris winning inordinate number and ballgames but this his credit pitched only good needed when was ballgame just put cruise control and threw the ball there and let the batters get themseleves out hate this expression inexperienced pitcher would wear himself out trying make perfect pitches keep his era down but morris being veteran pitcher knows that winning the only thing that really matters baseball saving himself was able reach back for that little extra hate this too when the game was the line nice audition tape send baseball tonight attn ray knight espn bristol have you chance taken look the boxscores from last year determine the accuracy your account seem recall morris getting least wins last year when the jays came back from behind after they had decided pull morris the end inning mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com dictionaries are merely checkpoint records linguistic history truly donovan
rec.sport.baseball	rooky question about the era thomas theiner thein damabus informatik rwth aachen wrote there german and have been into this mlb stuff since almost one year now there are many problems occuring for one them the era statistic for pitchers what does say era indicates the average number earned runs attributed pitcher per nine inning game thus pitcher pitched innings and gave earned run his inning equivelent perfomance would earned runs thus his era compute the era you simply take the number earned runs divided the innings pitched and then multiple the result era earned run run that given the pitcher that not attributed fielding error more specifically error occurs that represented the third out all runs scored after the error are considered unearned runs earned runs are also runs scored result players who were left base when the pitcher exited the game here are some examples there are two outs inning and there are men base error occurs that represents the third out all the runs after this error and not counted earned runs pitcher issues some base balls walks and leaves the game before the inning completed responsible for the people who were left base the those runners who were left base score and the score was not result error those eraned runs are attributed the pitcher who left the game hope this explains things for you joe
rec.sport.baseball	how speed games marginally realistic davidm gvls vfl paramax com david madden writes article she lkf ucdavis edu chip ucdavis edu gary built like villanueva huckabay writes you want speed ballgames mandate rule permitting only seconds between pitches the current rule too lenient and then enforce fifteen seconds more please pardon ignorance this well known but what the current rule than enough time the pitch isn released call ball and restart the clock remember post from last year indicating that pitch clock was tried one the minor leagues some time back and did not work don remember why they said that did not work anyone remember this jody mcdonnel wip phil has been saying that pitch clock was inevitable how would pitch clock work throws first maybe could limit the number throws first that the pitcher can make and award balk exceeds have another question who would operate the pitch clock one the umpires add another one the crew another pair suggestions remove the balk rule the runners responsibility stay safe matter what the pitcher does not sure like this idea think would severely diminish the number stolen bases and limit the availability such neat strategic ploys the hit and run and the squeeze play one personal favorites pitcher throws occupied base more than time without successfully picking off the runner the runner advances base walked ahhh suppose should read the whole article before hit the key obviously from what wrote above like this idea the balk seems give the pitcher the advantage the base walk allows the runner challenge pitcher throw over the base may also increase the number wild throws the bag since the pitcher knows doesn have very many chances pick off the runner may hurry too much rather see runs scored the result sound hitting and sound baseball strategy rather than the sloppiness that could result from this kind rule suppose there are some disadvantages that idea too baseball games take about the and just shade under hours the that just too damn long don like play hour games much less watch game for that long butt falls asleep and watching channel surf between pitches catching colorized versions leave beaver and those wacky nieporents nick nite too find myself surfing when know that will enough time between each pitch allow the batter adjust his jewlery remember little league when bat stepped out the batter box even for moment were automatically out that may little harsh for the majors but seriously how about putting limit the batters being able step out take several dozen practice swings pound their shoes scratch their balls etc maybe forcing them stay the batter box wouldn such bad idea that could save few minutes randy
rec.sport.baseball	mlb nba mss netcom com mark singer writes article rvesterm vma edu rvesterm vma edu writes article mssc qrrz netcom com mss netcom com mark singer says why would owners decrease ticket prices when they obviously get lots people pay the price they asking don think that obvious that lots people are willing pay the price sure someone out there net land has some facts about trends attendance regarding percentage capacity sold but even the trends are relatively flat you have consider what happening team team basis attendance was down from all time record people terms attendance was down from two franchises the dodgers and mets were down from had either them not been entirely awful mlb would have set another attendance record mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com fortran the infantile disorder now nearly years old hopelessly inadequate for whatever computer application you have mind today now too clumsy too risky and too expensive use edsger dijkstra selected writings computing
rec.sport.baseball	harry caray dave almost cursed the jays kirsch kirsch staff umn edu wrote article oasys navy mil odell oasys navy mil bernard farmer the dell writes not quite sure the reasons but the old man was certainly not enraptured ole harry but maybe his wife was don claim know whether true not but couple different people totally unrelated have said harry was relieved his duties because had more than platonic relations with augie busch wife judgement left the individual cuz sure don claim impeachable source this case among those who have said well not quite said but certainly alluded bing devine redbird some other administrator the time heard bing speak about last year sabr national btw have had show hands about who will attending this year sabr national san diego there neal traven pitt edu you only young once but you can traven vms cis pitt edu immature forever larry andersen
rec.sport.baseball	ron gant stalling and hirschbeck dale seer stephenson writes while can see why they want cut down the time spent walking around gant wasn ordered back the box sooner was ordered back immediately soon stepped out hirschbeck told him get back the box now gant doesn take lot walks between pitches the only reason did then because was very bothered the call expect his concentration wasn there yet and crucial situation imagine best calm possible contributing factors would gant bad day the plate bad year the plate and the braves long scoring drought and not hirschbeck job help gant with any these difficulties gant can gather his concentration for whatever reason that just makes him all the more meat the batter box the umpire job maintain flow play gant not entitled time regather his faculties nor anyone else now pretty stupid ahead and talk the walk when the umpire telling you get there you know the umpire going something call for strike throw you out etc gant was wrong absolutely think more accurate say gant was foolish but hirschbeck was more wrong biased view aside from the major chip seemed have his shoulder what was the problem gant had reason want some time disputed strike call disputed strike call ample reason for timeout games would last about nine fifteen weeks jack morris dave whiner stieb were pitching disputed strike call not sufficient for time out suck get back the box and never badmouth the blue they not going change their mind and you just going come across pinhead which won help you with the borderline calls ftr never speak umpires when don know them personally nor glance them react calls result think get more than fair share borderline calls the plate because have rep having good eye actually there are lot negative connotations that with that rep including copious questions about masculinity party affiliation and sexual preference gant hadn been wasting time all game the game had been cruising along and was just over two hours old irrelevant was wasting time then the score was with outs the ninth and runner scoring position there any reason hirschbeck couldn and shouldn cut gant little slack because not his job because setting the precedent cutting slack there can easily extend those hour games kind like the phantom for discernible constructive reason hirschbeck disrupted the game caused five minute delay and materially hurt the batter key situation did have date get gant hurt himself and the braves disrupted the game your biases are exposed and sitting here defending umpires and the giants which like phyllis schlafly defending gary segura jack kevorkian and the swedish abortion team and still wonder why terry was tossed earlier the game believe terry said the magic word there are some truly quick ways get tossed from ballgame for primer email good ways get tossed from game ask ken kaiser got his money back from nutri system kiss rich garcia the lips and say honey home goose eric gregg ask bruce froemming his parents had any children that lived get naked source the greg spira book diamond ettiquette told peter gammons collier press gary huckabay outside that was right down the bleedin pipe balder than any kenny realize don have great control but dave the net mon gary that was styrofoam cup the really plate foot your right throw the ball
rec.sport.baseball	hbp big cat article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david tate writes course this not the same claiming some that galarraga inability defer gratification isn hurting his team because isn paid walk rbi guy whatever alright that enough suffered with all kinds insults typical for the net but give break galarraga currently batting over and you guys are complaining that isn drawing enough walks what would have please you guys bat you can hardly claim that hurting his team happens that the pitchers start throwing him fewer good pitches and starts making lots outs someone speculated might happen then would agree with you that isn taking enough pitches comment that isn paid walk doesn mean that should have license swing bad pitches and make outs more along the lines batting and leading the league rbi what bloody difference does make isn drawing lot walks sheesh greg
rec.sport.baseball	best first basemen article apr tesla njit edu drm tesla njit edu wrote don mattingly the best first baseman the history baseball always has been always will actually keith hernandez the best sean behind the bag vin scully
rec.sport.baseball	geronimo pena article apr eagle wesleyan edu dhart eagle wesleyan edu writes hey noticed that luis alicea starting for the cardinals instead geronimo pena pena hurt was just benched for poor performance anyone know after quick start pena has been stuck rut torre gave alicea the start try get pena out whatever funk has worked the past bob bob netherton missouri pacific sun microsystems dallas
rec.sport.baseball	bob knepper was not right article apr news stolaf edu eblom mari acc admin stolaf edu the woodman writes article apr news yale edu austin jacobs writes don you guys think mean mon what the heck are women doing even thinking getting into baseball don know maybe because they love the game they cause many problems just look lisa olson remember that feisty reporter that entered the new england patriots locker room she started crying like little girl people deal with unfair treatment differently suppose you would have more respect she punched out some people like stereotypical macho man would have done just don think women belong man sport before you smart guys flame for this know the given example was about football who cares still applies other male sports male sports are only that way because they won let women involved there divine providence segregating sports the decision the men who run men almost liberal thinking you how can have women umpires ummm insisting they pass accredited umpire course then hiring them jeez look pam postema just because she woman everybody the face the earth thinks great that she getting opportunity ump you even watched the games and had greater than that roast beef you see that she not nearly good most aaa umpires besides she probably more worried about cracking fingernail with foul tip off wade boggs bat jose oquendo bat listen status quo know pam postema seen her work she without question the toughest person ever met she doesn give damn about her fingernails but does care about working the game she not there find man take care her but the best job any umpire can your bullshit comments are obviously tailored show off the red you neck not your grasp society there nothing wrong with red neck why some hicks even listen cultured music and such can you say the same aside from that you shouldn try shit this guy insulting where you think comes from where from milk cows drive trucks and yes even like baseball screw anyone that doesn like yeah learn the difference between and too city boy see below thom unnumbered wanna member the bob knepper fan club bkfc either way there are too many complications nobody said life was easy pam aware that bad that she has judged people like you who can look past anatomy qaustin jacobs bob knepper fan club member were you ever organized baseball owner the political system before women could vote you seem feel threatened ttfn woody smileys here either none
rec.sport.baseball	lame dumb and useless question article rvesterm vma edu rvesterm vma edu writes there are three balls this batter the pitcher proceeds bean the batter that walk hit pitch bob vesterman gotta hbp doug roberts watching chris nabholz pitch reminds quote bart simpson come snipers where are you expos
rec.sport.baseball	bonilla fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes all these divisions based race religion etc make sick they should isn nice that mlb finally waking their existence isn shame that hiring practices and off the field have been discriminatory for long quick name light hitting black outfielder who lasted years the bigs bet you can name two dozen white ones otis nixon darnell coles henry cotto manny mota billy hatcher herm winningham lonnie smith not light hitting but horror the field gary redus dion james daryl boston vince coleman yeah finally started have decent obp cecil espy willie wilson gary pettis milt thompson gary varsho admit taking quick browse through the major league handbook but only after the first and there the all time light hitting black outfielder lou brock look and curt flood cesar geronimo cesar cedeno note these guys may not have reached years yet but they got close likewise for list and prediction milt cuyler mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com you know the great thing about something important happens anywhere all the world matter what time the day night you can always change the channel jim ignatowski
rec.sport.baseball	ray lankford question article apr mnemosyne edu msilverm nyx edu mike silverman writes does anybody know what going with lankford know was out for few games with slight injury but since has beenback and before the injury for that matter has been really struggling the plate and the basepaths his performance the plate may well from the shoulder injury received when ran into the wall making catch the cincy series may also him pressing little for the baserunning does not appear just lankford dent made the bad call sending lankford the sunday night game against cincy but everyone had bad time against the dodger catcher whereis the ray lankford saw last year good question least doesn appear that are seeing the same zeile bob netherton missouri pacific sun microsystems dallas
rec.sport.baseball	best first basemen sean garrison writes article apr tesla njit edu drm tesla njit edu wrote don mattingly the best first baseman the history baseball always has been always will actually keith hernandez the best sean behind the bag vin scully with mark grace and years frank thomas chintan amin the university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.sport.baseball	braves update and then cosper seq uncwil edu kit cosper quoth comment made one the braves announcers attributed anonymous player after friday night game sorry didn tie wanted see some more umpiring just about sums sure like ron gant wasn completely out line were hirschbeck would have ejected order ron gant every single last brave who came onto the field and possibly bobby cox depending the language used since cox was the only brave rung suspect would have thrown him out too you simply cannot show umpire like ron gant did disrespectful not only the home plate umpire but the dignity the game jason lee jplee oboe calpoly edu jlee cash busfac calpoly edu giants the most beautiful equation mathematics magic for all sad words tongue and pen the saddest are these number might have been john greenleaf whittier
rec.sport.baseball	western insane article qucdn queensu qucdn queensu writes why are continuously putting down other universities queen not great makes itself out this place has only got good rep because been here long someone would take the time look around and see how dissatisfied people are with the disorganization and the constant misuse the bell curve they could see that queen needs some major improvements would personally start with hiring professors who can actually teach not people who are here with the attitude that this place would okay wasn for all the students running around when did george bell blue jay learn throw curve
rec.sport.baseball	braves update sysg kad odin corp sgi com luigi sgi com randy palermo writes article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes when gant turned away hirschbeck immediately motioned for gant step into the box imo this point time hirschbeck was determined show gant exactly who was charge this game gant wasn dawdling hadn had chance dawdle and hirschbeck was simply exercising power play gant resisted many might what thought was unreasonable request and hirschbeck called for the pitch that point cox came out the field the pitch was thrown and many other braves left the dugout cox was tossed protecting his player was pleasantly surprised that gant kept his cool enough stay the game did you see the same game saw gant most reasonable argued horrible call which hirschbeck correctly did nothing about gant then proceeded walk halfway base lean his bat and glare hirschbeck while don necessasarily subscribe the theory showing people this was obvious attempt gant hirschbeck left hirschbeck choice but take control the situation the bottom line gant started dangerous power struggle with hirschbeck when his team needed him most and lost the events saw were called strike hirschbeck shocked looking gant asks for appeal first appeal first gant steps out batters box hirschbeck immediately orders gant back bad move gant ignores hirschbeck and walks off bad move hirschbeck yells gant gant silent hirschbeck calls for the pitch pitch called strike cox argues couldn see when came the field cox ejected players everywhere play finally resumes gant shouldn have ignored hirschbeck not returning made the strike call fairly likely although suspect argument might have gotten gant tossed altogether but hirschbeck had let gant step out the whole incident probably would have been avoided dale stephenson steph uiuc edu baseball fanatic considered good look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	game length was braves update article mzimmersc sllk netcom com mzimmers netcom com michael zimmers writes article apr vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes agree with nick what the big deal about long games you want watch baseball there that much more baseball watch and yes baseball includes the space between plays well the plays themselves first longer game way suggests more baseball watch unless you include watching the grass grow baseball the lengthier games are because batters stepping out the box pitchers taking longer between pitches and excessive trips the mound managers and pitching coaches until six seven years ago was enthusiastic fan nfl football last year hardly watched game what turned off were the incessant interruptions the continuity the game team scores minutes commercials kickoff minutes commercials three downs and punt minutes commercials aaaaarrrrgh earlier this thread commented larussa and the whom believe institutionalize slow play don mind the cat and mouse game with rickey first fact rather enjoy similarly would enjoy the battle with listach lofton polonia first what object when such games are played with karkovice first when the game blowout don mind when the pitcher steps off the mound gather his thoughts crucial situation when hitter steps out the box regain his concentration what object when hitters and pitchers take such breaks every opportunity when game exciting these little delays serve tension builders and for enhance the value the experience the game when the delays happen with regularity they become nuisances just like the commercial breaks football understand the nfl imposed number rule changes speed the games basically putting onus the officiating staff move the markers and the ball the spots faster that did not address the problem the continuity the game may have appeased the sponsors and the networks but would amazed did anything enhance the experience the fans similary while some hour baseball games bore tears those are the ones where there continuity and the players are taking exasperatingly long periods get ready for each pitch doubt anyone watching the braves giants game cared about gant stepping out doubt anyone watching that game would have found that pause anything but opportunity have their complete attention claimed the drama that was present would totally opposed any effort that would eliminate that aspect baseball the other hand wish baseball had commissioner that was powerful enough sit down with alderson larussa duncan and explain that they are actually hurting the product baseball dragging their games out the way that they sure wouldn mind little arm twisting there the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	autographs was will clark jerk article apr cornell edu tedward cornell edu edward ted fischer writes article apr island com fester island com mike fester writes out curiousity why haven you pointed this same thing out neiporent who seems making the unsubstantiated accusation against will clark for taking the word those two leonard has repeatedly said had problems with will and mitchell refused comment mike you again prove your utter inability read plain english ironic that any post that criticizes langauge ability the critic invariably makes mistake himself english generally written english find somebody who literate and have them explain full post you not saying will clark racist not saying will clark not racist saying that not know and you not know saying that not care and consider the giants concern oddly not see that have contested any that perhaps you with assuredly greater english ability can explain tiny words that might grasp their meaning precisely where infer that you have said any those things david nieporent understood post and replied private mail you should perhaps take reading lessons from him fisher you should place the burden proof the one who makes the allegation the first place you not perhaps you might explain why that for the email route fisher you might have tried that yourself mike
rec.sport.baseball	hits stolen centerfield disclaimer this for fun computerized baseball game keep track category called stolen hits defined play made that average fielder would not make with average effort using the defensive averages posted sherri nichols thanks sherri figured out some defensive stats for the centerfielders hits stolen have been redefined plays juan gonzalez would not have made realize that unfair juan probably the victim pitching staff fluke shots and monster park factor but let put this way replaced every centerfielder the league with someone with kevin out making ability how many extra hits would try and correlate reality little more calculated net hits stolen based the number outs made compared what league average fielder would make the same method calculated net extra bases doubles and triples let finally throw all this into formula call defensive contribution dcon basically represents the defensive contribution player add this number ops get dops defense onbase plus slug which should represent the player total contribution the team don take too seriously the formula for dcon appears the end this article the short version definition terms hits stolen extra outs compared kurt stillwell nhs net hits stolen extra outs compared average fielder ndp net double plays extra double plays turned compared avg fielder neb net extra bases extra bases prevented compared avg fielder dcon defensive contribution bases and hits prevented rate dops dcon ops quick dirty measure player total contribution national league name nhs neb dcon dops nixon grissom jackson lewis dykstra dascenzo finley lankford martinez vanslyke sanders butler johnson ordered dops vanslyke lankford grissom dykstra nixon finley sanders jackson average butler martinez dascenzo lewis johnson american league name nhs neb dcon dops lofton wilson white felix devereaux mcrae yount kelly johnson griffey puckett cuyler gonzalez order dops lofton griffey devereaux white puckett wilson gonzalez yount felix average kelly johnson mcrae cuyler more discussion dcon formula nhs ndp nhs ndp neb why such bizzare formula basically designed added into the ops with the idea that run prevented important run scored the extra outs are factored into obp while the extra bases removed are factored into slg that why used and the divisors for more discussion see the post hits stolen first base dale stephenson steph uiuc edu baseball fanatic considered good look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	hits stolen left field disclaimer this for fun computerized baseball game keep track category called stolen hits defined play made that average fielder would not make with average effort using the defensive averages posted sherri nichols thanks sherri figured out some defensive stats for the leftfielders hits stolen have been redefined plays kevin bass would not have made realize that unfair kevin probably the victim pitching staff fluke shots and monster park factor but let put this way replaced every leftfielder the league with someone with kevin out making ability how many extra hits would try and correlate reality little more calculated net hits stolen based the number outs made compared what league average fielder would make the same method calculated net extra bases doubles and triples let finally throw all this into formula call defensive contribution dcon basically represents the defensive contribution player add this number ops get dops defense onbase plus slug which should represent the player total contribution the team don take too seriously the formula for dcon appears the end this article the short version definition terms hits stolen extra outs compared kurt stillwell nhs net hits stolen extra outs compared average fielder ndp net double plays extra double plays turned compared avg fielder neb net extra bases extra bases prevented compared avg fielder dcon defensive contribution bases and hits prevented rate dops dcon ops quick dirty measure player total contribution national league name nhs neb dcon dops gonzalez gilkey clark alou bonds may gant bass ordered dops bonds gilkey gonzalez alou clark average gant may bass american league name nhs neb dcon dops raines anderson henderson vaughn gladden hall mack polonia mcreynolds maldanado reimer order dops henderson anderson raines mack vaughn hall average maldanado mcreynolds gladden reimer polonia more discussion dcon formula nhs ndp nhs ndp neb why such bizzare formula basically designed added into the ops with the idea that run prevented important run scored the extra outs are factored into obp while the extra bases removed are factored into slg that why used and the divisors for more discussion see the post hits stolen first base dale stephenson steph uiuc edu baseball fanatic considered good look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris tedward cornell edu edward ted fischer writes valentine not going cordial roger maynard complete and total dickhead send mail you insist details fact complete and total dickhead least newsgroups this one and rec sport hockey since hockey season almost over back being dickhead john franjione department chemical engineering university colorado boulder franjion spot colorado edu
rec.sport.baseball	yankee thoughts apr clam com sam steamer clam com sam mandelbaum writes wade boggs live boston and like wade lot but his career winding down and would rather see the yanks start develop long term solution hensley muelins russ davis velarde besides wade just doesn have any range what shame about charlie hayes huh actually according the information posted sherri boggs superior defensively have here their defensive averages for the last five years compared average boggs hayes hayes defensive standout third done good job disguising put another way compared average third baseman last year boggs converted more grounders into outs turned more double plays and prevented doubles hayes let more grounders for hits turned more double plays and prevented doubles dale stephenson steph uiuc edu baseball fanatic considered good look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	relative value players kime mongoose torolab ibm com edward kim writes doubtful that the blue jays would have won the east without morris last year when the team went for the month august and all the other starters were being shelled and milwaukee was making charge morris went with pretty good era can remember exactly also let not underestimate the importance his innings save the bullpen every fifth day didn help win the east forget about the pennent and the world series his run support was high runs but was stottlemyer runs and won only games remember morris winning inordinate number and ballgames but this his credit pitched only good needed when was ballgame just put cruise control and threw the ball there and let the batters get themseleves out hate this expression inexperienced pitcher would wear himself out trying make perfect pitches keep his era down but morris being veteran pitcher knows that winning the only thing that really matters baseball saving himself was able reach back for that little extra hate this too when the game was the line don buy this all think things are colored very large degree preconceived notions who the players involved are try this exercise xxx pitching today his team scores the first inning and the fourth xxx gives the through the fifth gives runs the gives more the score now with xxx team still top contend that xxx were jack morris the assessment would gutty veteran who pitches only well has win xxx were mike trmbley the assessment would inexperienced rookie who doesn know how pitch needs more seasoning send him aaa the spice rack john franjione department chemical engineering university colorado boulder franjion spot colorado edu
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris article apr sni dave snitor sni dave till writes don think was that obvious the time that viola was better morris and viola had comparable ratios viola was coming off injury whereas morris was healthy the time didn really want the sox sign either was more than little worried about viola elbow but you surely remember shout relief when after week rumors that morris was coming the red sox they ended with viola instead now even happier viola seems have rebounded nicely also morris was willing sign for only two years the jays don like sign pitchers long term contracts which think sensible policy how long did viola sign for three years generally agree with their policy avoiding long term contracts for pitchers but think they enforce rather too strictly these days the premier pitchers all sign three four year deals which leaves the jays with morris and stewart the jays want compete for top free agent pitchers they will have accept greater risks any idea what the option year deal for morris are there any automatic activation clauses what the buyout amount cheers valentine
rec.sport.baseball	harry caray article blue cis pitt edu traven pitt edu neal traven writes dave almost cursed the jays kirsch kirsch staff umn edu wrote article oasys navy mil odell oasys navy mil bernard farmer newsgroups rec sport baseball the dell writes not quite sure the reasons but the old man was certainly not enraptured ole harry but maybe his wife was don claim know whether true not but couple different people totally unrelated have said harry was relieved his duties because had more than platonic relations with augie busch wife judgement left the individual cuz sure don claim impeachable source this case among those who have said well not quite said but certainly alluded bing devine redbird some other administrator the time heard bing speak about last year sabr national btw have had show hands about who will attending this year sabr national san diego there neal traven pitt edu you only young once but you can traven vms cis pitt edu immature forever larry andersen harry talks about this incident his autobiography holy cow unfortunately can not clarify this since read the book couple years ago and not have book with anyway pretty interesting book you are harry cubs fan rob
rec.sport.baseball	bitmaps team logos heard they were posted somewhere but can not find them please mail location thanks jody jody hagins hagins avlin com data general corporation linthicum rock river tree mastodon
rec.sport.baseball	two sport star trivia here few two sport star trivia questions admit they not too difficult but bit challenging nevertheless mail your answers please post them which pitcher played for the harlem globetrotters which major leaguer briefly tried professional golf which does dieon sanders have more professionally career touchdowns triples has there been any player both pro hockey and baseball name him and the years played each you have any other two sport star tidbits feel free include them mike
rec.sport.baseball	how speed games marginally realistic article apr vfl paramax com davidm gvls vfl paramax com david madden writes another pair suggestions remove the balk rule the runners responsibility stay safe matter what the pitcher does pitcher throws occupied base more than time without successfully picking off the runner the runner advances base walked this last suggestion will probably increase the number stolen bases considerably suppose the pitcher uses his pick off attempts the runner can probably stretch his lead off the base given that there will extra pressure the pitcher get right this time would this suggestion apply pick off attempts per pitch per batter per base runner the same base edward baranoski mit lincoln laboratory got the going box not the getting there that good lexington harry chapin from greyhound
rec.sport.baseball	hbp big cat article apr ncar ucar edu woods ncar ucar edu greg woods writes alright that enough suffered with all kinds insults typical for the net but give break galarraga currently batting over and you guys are complaining that isn drawing enough walks what would have please you guys bat you can hardly claim that hurting his team fine are you willing bet that will bat the rest the way the point that has hurt the rockies far that will hurt them eventually just much hurt the expos and the cardinals the past couple seasons happens that the pitchers start throwing him fewer good pitches and starts making lots outs someone speculated might happen then would agree with you that isn taking enough pitches comment has happened for the past seasons where have you been that isn paid walk doesn mean that should have license swing bad pitches and make outs more along the lines batting and leading the league rbi what bloody difference does make isn drawing lot walks sheesh see come september have outstanding bet with someone that galarraga obp will less than june california angels nelson claudius leland stanford edu
rec.sport.baseball	neon deon sanders braves giants article apr bnlux bnl gov kyee bnlux bnl gov kenton yee writes phisto gatech edu tmiller cimmeria gatech edu thomas miller writes does anyone else think that this weekend four game series was really strange one yup was wondering the whole time why the braves most talented outfielder neon deon was not starting here whoa aren you forgetting couple guys named gant and justice guy who can hit hrs lead off and steal can lead off probably steal might hit never hit homers think you went for this one bases and they start guys like nixon and bream ahead him can really see that advantage nixon over deon except that nixon better defensive outfielder you said all right there does anyone else out there not like deon think all hype his season last year was good but not convinced that can again reminds sorry the year when tim wallach hit homers and had rbi never even came close happening again course maybe just prefer guys who about their business and don play for the attention just doug roberts larry walker god delino deshields thinks john bratt you out there send some email system can find your site
rec.sport.baseball	torre the worst manager prism gatech edu michael andre mule writes article hydra gatech edu prism gatech edu brian landmann writes later the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs puts lankford hitter with power pinch runner and uses luis alicea hitter with power pinch hitter what the helll thinking memory serves well alicea hit and damn near tied the game torre obviously knows his players better than you not mention that lankford had been hurt two nights before running into the outfield wall this being the reason was available pinch anything his ribs were the problem could run but not hit torre white rat but give him credit for what pretty darn good manager with the exception the felix fiasco but not sure who brainchild that was bil cardinals mailing list anyone anyone please
rec.sport.baseball	usa mcweekly stats rvesterm vma edu writes some discussion about whether elias money grubbing deleted funny seems that the stats major league and minor league handbooks which are nothing but collections statistics are authored bill james and stats inc and howe for the minor league handbook and not sure how the bill james player ratings book qualifies book with statistics while the elias analyst statistics book the analyst contains more stats sure but also contains more dialogue finally the point was not about the word statistics was about money grubbing don see how anyone who has looked the bill james player ratings book cannot consider him money grubbing bob vesterman some thoughts and facts bill james partial owner stats inc however has almost nothing with the day day operations the company although does have significant input into the design the books that bear his name the handbook but not the scoreboard the best knowledge the only things that bill actually writes for stats are the predictions section the handbook and the bill james fantasy baseball rulebook the debate over elias goes way back bill james early stuff was hampered the fact that elias would not give access their stats any price project scoresheet and later stats were founded fill this void you can call stats and ask them for report just about anything their database and they will provide for price course you could just log into their online system and look the data yourself having attempted pry numbers from elias the past football not baseball they just don that stats eyes the high ground comes from making the information available all that being said pretty dissapointed bill book this year too given understant that was mostly response the publishers desire have the book come out sooner than april hope this makes things just little bit clearer bias alert former part time employee stats noel rappin noel chaos brandeis edu
rec.sport.baseball	box score abbrev woes scott asd com scott barman writes article apr scott skidmore edu jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff writes can anybody figure out why some box score abbreviations make absolutely sense least the local gannett rag that finds its way door must have stared cleman the mets box for good seconds this morning wondering who the hell was wouldn make more sense use colemn seen colmn also blame the associated press after the official scorer balances the official score card they copy and give several diffent people one those person from whose job type using template laptop and transmit the offices new york rockefeller center via the telephone the box scores are not checked and just rebroadcasted over news delivery services there are corrections those are issued later the person sitting front laptop shea whereever whose fault that note the puts out boxscores three different formats with the one you see most newspapers being the first one not totally true for the past year two the has been getting box scores from stats inc the representative the press box actually stats reporter dollars game but free parking and anybody can the box downloaded stats chicago some quick error checking done and then stats sends the not sure where the appreveiations come hear don think stats may just space correction the sports editor that day while mentioning stats reporters they are always looking for new people especially you live cleveland pittsburgh you road getting into the press box may real short for more info call stats and ask about the reporter network fun way get paid for watching baseball games end public service announcement last week they were denver maybe the person denver did this remember they just started with mlb out there check tomorrow paper and see the person who doing from shea does the same thing noel rappin noel chaos brandeis edu
rec.sport.baseball	jays darrin jackson nightmare article svp fja nrl navy mil klinker itd nrl navy mil eric klinker writes article ior slacvm slac stanford edu thomas hyer ior slacvm slac stanford edu writes article smzy bde nrl navy mil klinker itd nrl navy mil eric klinker says was popular player san diego derek bell was not faring well the clubhouse toronto matter how bad looks now still think was steal for the jays just from the perspective team chemistry laugh you now and will laugh you again equally publicly when the jays finish third due the severe depletion their talent the jays will finish third because the depletion their pitching staff not because derek bell was traded for darrin jakson couldn agree more the jays have lot power their line far pitching has been the biggest problem maybe can get acker back but anyway the point post you missed was that derek bell was traded because was basically the doghouse with cito and the rest the team one incident that sticks out mind was when derek bell ran back out the feild after the jays had won the division and all the players were back the clubhouse bell ran around the field with his arms the air waving big towel over his head looked like big jerk especially when you consider did not contribute much the team over the whole season the next day winfield and carter somehow got the keys bell jeep and brought out the feild before the game started the stadium announcer said that there was going draw later the game for bell jeep bell really freaked out don think bell was popular after that think that jackson might trying little too hard right now known for being great outfielder and not the only blue jay who has been booting balls and playing generally awful andrew andrew wyllie wyllie physics utoronto mrcs university toronto
rec.sport.baseball	you could look article apr alchemy chem utoronto mark writes yes could look but prefer post this question the net read somewhere long forgotten article that the handsignals used major league umps were originally used help deaf ball player the name dummy urban myth true gots know dummy hoy late century baseball player was deaf order for him able find out whether the pitch was ball strike the umpires developed hand signals this also helped relieve the stress umpires vocal cords they didn have shout strike ball times game heard about this one from the only worthwhile baseball book john thorn has ever authored century baseball lore mark mbrownel alchemy chem utoronto jason miller some doctor guy frank tanana win
rec.sport.baseball	fenway does anybody know the for ticket info for fenway less than people more steve
rec.sport.baseball	ugliest stance don know think phil plantier has the ugliest stance looks like sitting the toilet brian tbo rosen
rec.sport.baseball	best homeruns mike schmidt not only milestone but also inning game winner john
rec.sport.baseball	phils east not weak article kingoz camelot kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth says you may posting this way too early and eating your words mid season mon the phillies haven proved anything yet atlanta was similar the phils years ago they sucked they started having the phillies finished third years ago the braves really are their record can you imagine the phils record they were batting hahahaha and atlanta hitting will improve dramatically the phillies opponents haven hit much better eat our words not forgive the true fans philly have been through lot john
rec.sport.baseball	hbp big cat article mjones fenway mjones donald aix kingston ibm com writes would help his obp were higher than his batting average yes the april usa today lists grand chapeau having batting average and obp okay bite how can obp lower than batting average sac flies something ken kubey kubey wpd sgi com
rec.sport.baseball	ray lankford question article apr mnemosyne edu msilverm nyx edu mike silverman says does anybody know what going with lankford know was out for few games with slight injury but since has beenback and before the injury for that matter has been really struggling the plate and the basepaths whereis the ray lankford saw last year patient has sore shoulder from crashing into the wall the cards will give him all the time needs come around their full time centerfielder will not however steal often this year hitting clean mark kornbluh
rec.sport.baseball	why barry bonds not batting the heading indicates impossible for fathom why barry not batting for the giants behind will clark barry such awesome and consistent hitter definitely the best the national league imho have williams streaky hitter and not really clutch hitter batting ahead bonds simply injustice the giants and fans the giants
rec.sport.baseball	and america team but why article kingoz camelot kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes well officially the braves least until they started winning was are they still officially why and how did they receive this label unoffically but without doubt america team the cubs why well guess because america loves underdogs every year matter the cubs talent the predictions they never close never possible win anything over the years the losing has mounted america has fallen love with these perennial losers the cubs have more fans chicago then some teams worldwide the cubs have more fans worldwide than most the teams their division combined aura excitement surrounds the cubs the beginning the season like one else including the champs must that eternal hope this the year they got the talent they off good start they got the pitching hitting whatever their strong point the time that inevitability that the cubs will eventually win the again when only god knows since been long could come any time could another years but until they finally win and start winning consistently the cubs will remain america lovable underdogs the cubs are america team orin bradley really jester disguise you are absolutely correct braves fans are nothing but bunch bandwagoners correct wrong but years ago you couldnt give away ticket see the braves play would bet next paycheck that the called braves fans living outside georgia the present time can not name more than players from their season the other hand ask any cubs fan living anywhere the united states name players from any given year and them probably could granted the fact that team wins brings people the ball park but that does not mean they diserve the title america team the only reason they are considered america team because ted turner and his little station which broadcasts across the nation consider toronto america team before the braves reds chris babbitt cgbabbitt leo bsuvc bsu edu all want life woman love and woman care for kids hopefully the two will never meet
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris aardvark cygnus locus com warren usui writes alfredo griffin better than barry larkin rings what you judging then don see your point since barry has one yes but alfredo has least two dodgers and blue jays not only that has won world series rings for more different teams than babe ruth and lou gehrig combined how know that the yankee dynasty was not due lazarri being third warren agree with your premise but the babe won two teams that right was part the red sox dynasty the and everyone knows that the yankee dynsaty wouldn have happened without thier famous bullpen catcher whose name escapes the moment cuz
rec.sport.baseball	belcher terrific tomlin not reds win redreport tim belcher pitched dandy three hit shut out tonight cincinnati won their second straight pittsburgh lefty randy tomlin was hit early and often the heavily right unbalanced reds line which managed some recently rare power with their bats belcher was solid throughout and fact seemed get stronger the game progressed early had several three ball counts but even those were few and far between later allowed only one base balls while striking out nine post game interview said his change was working for him should say all nine his strikeouts were apparently breaking balls tomlin the other hand was trouble early giving second pitch double lead off batter bip roberts bobby kelly followed with single and barry larkin scored roberts with sharp single right the big guys mitchell sabo milligan were unable get anything after that fact they all struck out but kelly managed score anyway due double steal and tomlin wild pitch fact appeared that tomlin was going recover nicely from his shaky start retired the next batters get the fourth behind only randy milligan though had different ideas his line shot was poorly played orlando merced and turned into triple milligan would later score reggie sanders sacrifice fly giving cinci the lead after the fifth inning spelled loss for tomlin when roberts led off with his second double the game and one batter later larkin smacked double down the left field line chasing tomlin barry later would score the final run tom prince two base passed ball the pirates managed their only threat the day the bottom half the fifth when merced and kevin young hit back back singles the second being the bunt variety but carlos garcia struck out prince fit foul fly and pinch hitter lonnie smith end any pittsburgh hope pittsburgh pitchers backed tomlin well though relievers blas minor moeller and nagel gave only two hits their four plus innings work barry larkin left the game the seventh when the grounder mis played bruised his right thumb was taken the hospital for precautionary rays let hope cincinnati now still the worst record the majors but with the two wins they may looking moving out the cellar pittsburgh now reds fans you would like receive this report semi daily basis often write send your mail address and put you the list someone has reds mailing list please forward and put everyone the list cincinnati reds roberts kelly larkin branson mitchell hernandez sabo milligan sanders oliver belcher totals milligan off tomlin leading off fourth scored roberts off tomlin leading off first scored roberts off tomlin leading off fifth scored larkin off tomlin fifth one out runner second rbi scored sanders rbi larkin sanders kelly larkin gdp sabo pittsburgh pirates martin bell van slyke king merced young garcia prince tomlin minor smith moeller waynor nagel gdp merced cincinnati pittsburgh pitching cincinnati belcher line the day larkin pittsburgh tomlin minor moeller nagel tomlin prince umps rippley hallion quick crawford att coming the reds play two more pitts then chicago for weekend series the weather doesn look good though don surprised one more games get rained out tomorrow jose rijo steve cook then smiley wakefield thursday rstimets
rec.sport.baseball	jewish broadcasters was jewish baseball players apr galileo rochester edu kahn troi rochester edu writes let not forget michaels you believe miracles fame jim course you can forget mel allen michael
rec.sport.baseball	best homeruns how about brooks robinson last homerun ever came memorial stadium with one out and two the bottom the inning larry harlow was due but brooks pinch hit pitch from dave laroche into the left field bleachers for win brian klaff
rec.sport.baseball	game length was braves update article apr vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes agree with nick what the big deal about long games you want watch baseball there that much more baseball watch and yes baseball includes the space between plays well the plays themselves don really mind the length games either they want speed the games sensible ways that fine with too however what object the assertion baseball people whitey herzog buck rodgers are who heard say this that games are too long because hitters are taking too many pitches and that the strike zone needs expanded john franjione department chemical engineering university colorado boulder franjion spot colorado edu
rec.sport.baseball	braves update article steph pegasus uiuc edu steph pegasus uiuc edu dale stephenson says the events saw were called strike hirschbeck shocked looking gant asks for appeal first appeal first gant steps out batters box hirschbeck immediately orders gant back bad move even noticed that gant demeanor was not one batter attempting regain his concentration gant was stalking off wonder gant said something the ump gant ignores hirschbeck and walks off bad move actually there was small hand wave gant say don bother gant may have said something here too hirschbeck yells gant gant silent hirschbeck calls for the pitch pitch called strike cox argues couldn see when came the field cox was already halfway the ump when the strike was called cox ejected players everywhere play finally resumes gant shouldn have ignored hirschbeck not returning made the strike call fairly likely although suspect argument might have gotten gant tossed altogether but hirschbeck had let gant step out the whole incident probably would have been avoided impression was that gant was not stepping out was making protest about the lack appeal first has been pointed out earlier there appeal first strike can understand gant feeling little pressure two out risp game ninth inning let get him the ump also overreacted gant was stalking off but doubt would have been gone long hirschbeck should have let him have moment compose himself before telling him come bat imho umpires should more flexible than what hirschbeck showed gant was disturbed the point was pretty likely would not get hit very bad finish pretty good game dale stephenson steph uiuc edu baseball fanatic considered good look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball wayne barber data support specialist university maine system internet barber maine maine edu
rec.sport.baseball	why barry bonds not batting elroy edu edward hui writes article apr leland stanford edu punjabi leland stanford edu sanjeev punjabi writes the heading indicates impossible for fathom why barry not batting for the giants behind will clark barry such awesome and consistent hitter definitely the best the national league imho have williams streaky hitter and not really clutch hitter batting ahead bonds simply injustice the giants and fans the giants simple reasons having bonds batting behind williams means that matt will get more good pitches hit this important since struggles much with breaking balls opposing pitchers don want walk williams get bonds don understand this all matt williams has demonstrated throughout his career that will not wait for good pitches hit won take walks rather swing the opposing pitcher why would groove fastball williams and have him hit well when know that williams will swing and miss least not hit very well low and away curve john franjione department chemical engineering university colorado boulder franjion spot colorado edu
rec.sport.baseball	best first basemen article apr tesla njit edu drm tesla njit edu says don mattingly the best first baseman the history baseball always has been always will always has been even before was even conceived that neat trick always will leave lot room for error don hopefully missed earlier post that this was with regard otherwise well leave that the individual fill but will say what about gehrig shortened and not capitalized for the ease the reader mike
rec.sport.baseball	candlestick hey folks saw the giants play ball the stick saturday april was the game where pendelton broke the scoreless tie the ninth with two out two run homer right win wasn the game where the fans threw the give away fotoballs onto the field response the homer too bad huh well the stick still cold the saturday game ended and was cold then can imagine night games april the stick the wind kicked little too and got this idea most games there pile hot dog wrappers and cups and trash the field lot the time propose kid clean corps composed mainly year old kids who would love nothing better than run out the field the fifth inning when the guy the toro smooths the infield and grab the trash might not glamorous but that age probably would have given anything the field with the ballplayers everybody wins here whaddaya think sean
rec.sport.baseball	why barry bonds not batting consistent hitter definitely the best the national league imho have williams streaky hitter and not really clutch hitter batting ahead bonds simply injustice the giants and fans the giants having bonds batting behind williams means that matt will get more good pitches hit this important since struggles much with breaking balls opposing pitchers don want walk williams get bonds you definitely correct that williams absolutely has sandwiched between clark and bonds must and mean must get fastballs hit otherwise becomes little more than sixto lezcano disguise what would suggest perhaps batting bonds williams and clark the reason being that feel bonds potential basestealing abilities are wasted when stuck behind two slow runners think the chance getting extra stolen bases with bonds the spot would more than offset any drop run production having clark the spot matt
rec.sport.baseball	you could look article apr alchemy chem utoronto mark writes yes could look but prefer post this question the net read somewhere long forgotten article that the handsignals used major league umps were originally used help deaf ball player the name dummy urban myth true gots know true william dummy hoy was baseball first deaf player played the bigs from through for several teams including the white sox and reds brian curran mead data central brian meaddata com never had coach life when find one who can beat then listen lee trevino professional golfer
rec.sport.baseball	relative value players kime apr mongoose torolab ibm com kime mongoose torolab ibm com edward kim writes article lww world std com jle world std com joe leonard writes before folks jump let ask the net would the jays have won the with good pitcher from aaa place morris given his run support how about average pitcher can believe that morris performance the playoffs and series had large positive impact the jays performance know very trendy nowadays dump morris but let give credit where credit due doubtful that the blue jays would have won the east without morris well when you say without morris you have mention assumed replacement the alternative morris was letting cito gaston soft toss the ball underhand the opposition every days then course the blue jays wouldn have won without morris the alternative was replacement level then think would been very close and yes morris might made the difference the alternative was frank viola the blue jays probably would have won more easily with viola last year when the team went for the month august and all the other starters were being shelled and milwaukee was making charge morris went with pretty good era can remember exactly yes you can make the argument that the his presence prevented the team from collapsing august also let not underestimate the importance his innings save the bullpen every fifth day didn help win the east forget about the pennent and the world series those innings were probably helpful his run support was high runs but was stottlemyer runs and won only games remember morris winning inordinate number and ballgames but this his credit pitched only good needed when was ballgame just put cruise control and threw the ball there and let the batters get themseleves out hate this expression inexperienced pitcher would wear himself out trying make perfect pitches keep his era down but morris being veteran pitcher knows that winning the only thing that really matters baseball saving himself was able reach back for that little extra hate this too when the game was the line well think complete what happened most the time that morris fell behind and the team came back and rescued him mostly this because lousy inning pitcher and much better the rest the way that the team can climb out holes consistently and win them not morris credit the team credit furthermore while morris did exceed the percentage that would projected from his runs allowed and run support hasn done this previous years fact his record lot worse than what projects with run support and runs allowed you think just came with this ability look the postseason games pitched decently typical morris games morris gets behind team rescues him not responsible for that rescue and both those games the team just didn rescue him enough jack morris pitched well did during much the season those games the offense just didn earn him victory btw think should put the bullpen would embarrassing veteran pitcher which cito would never but his era how much more can embarrassed morris one those guys who will reture when can start anymore too bad first inning pitcher serve the bullpen greg
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris did anyone happen see peter gammons espn last night addressed this exact issue and dismissed rather quickly according gammons advanced scouts are reporting that morris fastball and slider still have the same zip and that his problems this year are due his sudden inability keep the ball hidden during his release guzman and stottlemyre have gone through similar stretches that have been cleared succinctly little work with the pitching coach gammons looks see morris back top form within the month the other hand still have doubts morris era last year was rather high for pitcher who won games his showing the series was not surprising although not convinced that washed have doubts whether not can ever regain the form had for the twins brian klaff
rec.sport.baseball	game length was braves update mzimmers netcom com michael zimmers writes first longer game way suggests more baseball watch unless you include watching the grass grow baseball definitely that why don like going see games played artificial turf the lengthier games are because batters stepping out the box pitchers taking longer between pitches and excessive trips the mound managers and pitching coaches and while true that the gaps between plays can interesting this only true when they don become extra long well your idea interesting differs from mine think batting practice interesting for example and make special effort get the game very early order see think the delaying tactics batters pitchers catchers and managers are interesting because they attempts gain advantage through control the flow and timing the game course the umpires can and should intervene when these tactics get out hand ryan robbins has pointed out there are rules that cover this one the more fascinating things about baseball think its open endedness with regard time you never know the game going zip right and over less than two hours going until four the morning likewise some games are action packed and some games are slow and lazy that fine those folks who want constant action should watch the games they can channel surf and cater their short attention spans heather hhenderson vax clarku edu
rec.sport.baseball	bob vesterman plan generate fan interest rvesterm vma edu writes let face sex and violence are the only things that sell america here how can implement them the game bob sex already all over baseball you think those uniforms can get any tighter todd hundley could suppose seems favor the carlton fisk baggy pants style very unfortunate todd word the wise got flaunt heather hhenderson vax clarku edu
rec.sport.baseball	yanks royals box score need the box score from the april game believe the score was anyone can provide for would appreciate joseph guastella long distance mkt rep dewitt san pedro suite san antonio san antonio jguastel lonestar utsa edu ext
rec.sport.baseball	ray lankford question does anybody know what going with lankford know was out for few games with slight injury but since has beenback and before the injury for that matter has been really struggling the plate and the basepaths whereis the ray lankford saw last year beg differ had couple hit games after came back did get caught stealing though also missed sunday game did play tonight not worried team too patrick
rec.sport.baseball	cub fever kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes cub fever hitting again beginning think they have chance this year what the heck thinking sorry just moment incompetence really orin bradley you sure this maybe chronic syndrome persists may have banish you the cub crazy sanatarium north chicago rob
rec.sport.baseball	pecota braves could someone out there send pecota stats for the last few years something give some sort feel for what kind player mind has handle him all bothers pecota the braves that pretty meaningful that can even come with his first name think ken yousten first you don succeed try again blacksburg then quit use being damn fool about yousten atlantis csos orst edu fields
rec.sport.baseball	best first basemen article apr tesla njit edu drm tesla njit edu writes don mattingly the best first baseman the history baseball always has been always will not what kind happy grass you are smoking maybe you should share some with first all lou gehrig the greatest first baseman ever jimmie foxx clearly the next best first baseman ever could the greatest first baseman the yankees the modern era put him this best the history baseball quite humorous very silly and totally off the line tony
rec.sport.baseball	why barry bonds not batting article mek hlq menudo edu elroy edu writes article apr leland stanford edu punjabi leland stanford edu sanjeev punjabi writes the heading indicates impossible for fathom why barry not batting for the giants behind will clark barry such awesome and consistent hitter definitely the best the national league imho have williams streaky hitter and not really clutch hitter batting ahead bonds simply injustice the giants and fans the giants simple reasons batting williams ahead bonds will create left clark right williams left bonds situation the middle the batting order this makes tougher for opposing manager change pitchers having bonds batting behind williams means that matt will get more good pitches hit this important since struggles much with breaking balls opposing pitchers don want walk williams get bonds both your reasons are not good ones joe morgan thinks that bonds clark williams should the hitters while believes that clark bonds williams fine definitely the opinion that bonds should hit ahead williams inclined agree with him your first reason not valid because bonds can hit both lefties and righties very well hits lefties righties better than any other giant williams still getting breaking balls although not much last season but the bottom line bonds far more disciplined and more productive hitter than williams and prefer take chances with bonds driving the hitters who are expected have high obps than with williams williams would get more fastballs with bonds first and second base open because the threat bonds stealing
rec.sport.baseball	why barry bonds not batting article apr leland stanford edu bohnert leland stanford edu matthew bohnert writes consistent hitter definitely the best the national league imho have williams streaky hitter and not really clutch hitter batting ahead bonds simply injustice the giants and fans the giants having bonds batting behind williams means that matt will get more good pitches hit this important since struggles much with breaking balls opposing pitchers don want walk williams get bonds you definitely correct that williams absolutely has sandwiched between clark and bonds must and mean must get fastballs hit otherwise becomes little more than sixto lezcano disguise what would suggest perhaps batting bonds williams and clark the reason being that feel bonds potential basestealing abilities are wasted when stuck behind two slow runners think the chance getting extra stolen bases with bonds the spot would more than offset any drop run production having clark the spot matt williams does not like hitting cleanup secondly bonds and clark that order are lot more productive with runners scoring position than matt streaky free swinger williams sanjeev
rec.sport.baseball	ugliest swing ugliest swing not sure think the ugliset stance jolio franco the ranger wonder how that bat comes around time hit the ball looks bad but hey get the job done tac
rec.sport.baseball	jewish ballplayers your list jewish ballplayers includes levi samuel meyerle son jacob and margaret meyerle although that sounds like jewish name meyerle surviving relatives say wasn jewish according nineteenth century stars published sabr incidentally long levi was foot batted the first season the national association the first pro league needless say hasn been topped yet course the not considered major league officialdom over five seasons meyerle hit the also played for the first three seasons the hitting phil brown aka csc albany edu
rec.sport.baseball	and america team but why apr bsu ucs cgbabbitt leo bsuvc bsu edu writes you are absolutely correct braves fans are nothing but bunch bandwagoners correct wrong but years ago you couldnt give away ticket see the braves play would bet next paycheck that the called braves fans living outside georgia the present time can not name more than players from their season the other hand ask any cubs fan living anywhere the united states name players from any given year and them probably could you could right then again you could wrong this claim completely unverifiable and untestable wager most the braves fans the net could name more than players from their season you could give away tickets braves games however dad and were able get great seats from scalper for face value which isn exactly the sign hot ticket granted the fact that team wins brings people the ball park but that does not mean they diserve the title america team the only reason they are considered america team because ted turner and his little station which broadcasts across the nation this precisely why they were considered america team even especially when they were bad you could see most the braves games cable you could that for the cubs well but the braves had better camerawork better announcers what would you rather listen harry discuss the game skip and pete discuss motoball and teams that weren too much worse because tbs the braves had lot fans outside georgia home kentucky even though were much closer cincinnati there was many braves fans reds fans even you could actually watch the braves play you had cincinnati watch the reds can anywhere america and watch the braves consider toronto america team before the braves why guess that braves fans are more widely distributed than toronto fans dale stephenson steph uiuc edu baseball fanatic considered good look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	neon deon sanders braves giants zippy telcom arizona edu joplin biosci arizona edu doug roberts writes does anyone else out there not like deon think all hype his season last year was good but not convinced that can again reminds sorry the year when tim wallach hit homers and had rbi never even came close happening again course maybe just prefer guys who about their business and don play for the attention just tim wallach can explained with the rabbitball deion can explained learning how play the game not betting that deion will able play well last year but think the odds deion playing well better than did last year are better than the odds otis nixon doing the same thing when you factor defense otis was more valuable last year but not convinced more valuable this year and especially next year dale stephenson steph uiuc edu baseball fanatic considered good look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	rbi question there any judgement call the part the scorer for sac fly rbi this the situation that brought the question the red sox were the bottom the score the mariners had the bases loaded with out the batter hits fly center which the fielder catches the runner third tags and scores without throw now without judgement call and don think there one this rbi for the batter seems that better name for this would defensive indifference since doesn really matter whether the guy third scores that point know can think several the mariners stole third and second which opening the base would allow and then the batter hit grounder which the third baseman gets deep the hole between himself and third wouldn have play home third second for the out and maybe therefore can make the throw first get the last out etc scenarios too but does really matter this guy scores this way when you down the tying run going score the guy third the point that the batter imo shouldn get credit rbi for utterly failing his job which this point get hit walk not trade out for one run what you guys think regards burke charles homan choman wpi wpi edu red sox rocket
rec.sport.baseball	opinions eli denny show that what happened denny mclain sad for those you who are interested another baseball pariah pete rose has weekday radio show the sports and entertainment national radio network think locally the east coast and actually his air monologues about the baseball business sounds lot more reasonable and articulate than what hear from the ray knights the world greg mockingbird franklin interracial mixing encompasses lot lot more ccit arizona edu than mingling between races robohen stodgy things argument inept speaker ignorant sermonizing drinking bout without hors oeuvres dried sword sheath held together threads questioning boy favorite about one other affairs inumakura the dog pillow
rec.sport.baseball	why barry bonds not batting article apr leland stanford edu punjabi leland stanford edu sanjeev punjabi writes the heading indicates impossible for fathom why barry not batting for the giants behind will clark barry such awesome and consistent hitter definitely the best the national league imho have williams streaky hitter and not really clutch hitter batting ahead bonds simply injustice the giants and fans the giants simple reasons batting williams ahead bonds will create left clark right williams left bonds situation the middle the batting order this makes tougher for opposing manager change pitchers having bonds batting behind williams means that matt will get more good pitches hit this important since struggles much with breaking balls opposing pitchers don want walk williams get bonds edward hui
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris all roger maynard drivel deleted cordially always maynard ramsey laurentian many morons and little time can just stick this guy the faq and stop responding him guys the last several flame wars with him have been pretty much identical could someone just collect all the articles from this one and simply post the entire block whenever tries start one simpler roger apparently one those embarassing specimens who enjoys flames why give him what wants roger you dull very dull you should get new act tom
rec.sport.baseball	and america team but why article apr bsu ucs cgbabbitt leo bsuvc bsu edu writes you are absolutely correct braves fans are nothing but bunch bandwagoners correct wrong but years ago you couldnt give away ticket see the braves play would bet next paycheck that the called braves fans living outside georgia the present time can not name more than players from their season john smoltz tom glavine german jiminez dale murphy bruce sutter pete smith rick mahler jim acker jim break through morrison ron gant andres thomas gerald perry ozzie the aeneid virgil lonnie smith jerry royster how doing far note not braves fun the other hand ask any cubs fan living anywhere the united states name players from any given year and them probably could the other hand like the braves much more than the cubs and all can name ron santo ernie banks and don kessinger from favorite cubbie season granted the fact that team wins brings people the ball park but that does not mean they diserve the title america team the only reason they are considered america team because ted turner and his little station which broadcasts across the nation right watched enough braves games know great deal their players like many their players the only cubs games get see while living new york are those against the mets and they put sleep because face watching guys like rick sutcliffe and luis salazar doesn put the edge chair consider toronto america team before the braves actually notice lot anti toronto sentiment here the states partly because some that post series arrogance thanks part upside down flag dork posts partly because roberto alomar about exciting swiss cheese and partly because living baltimore during the winters become fond fans especially those who call rex barney radio show that have side against their most hated rivals reds sorry but mets spelled with and jason miller some doctor guy frank banananna win
rec.sport.baseball	mvp revisited total baseball which also tries evaluate player total offensive and defensive contributions gives barry bonds total player rating for only one other player since ruth attained that mark cal ripken for his season rounding out the top five offensive players the last season sheffield sandberg van slyke and larkin the top offensive players the were martinez ventura anderson henderson and thomas short total baseball says bonds enjoyed one the best seasons ever the game history better than any year had mantle mays williams etc you disagree don flame flame the writers total baseball also martinez and ventura are neck and neck given the shortcomings any statistical analysis which one had the better year can considered toss thus total baseball supports your choices bonds and ventura the mvps phil brown aka csc albany edu
rec.sport.baseball	phils winning the hard way the phillies have won two games back back extra innings last night game was hard fought the game chicago should have been blow out all all these two games show different phillies team past seasons they tended always the short end run games don know how many times saw them losing only run they were able win most those they might have been more contending team they are far extra innings and course they are
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris article apr ramsey laurentian maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes say that one player better than another able say solutely that player team would have played better with player their lineup sheer speculation impossible ascertain there are very few disciplines where certainty necessary state something fact baseball not one them therefore can say that know clemens was better than morris last year and larkin was better than griffin can ascertain this can prove but not required and since you obviously feel that such threads are meaningless why don you simply stay out them valentine not going cordial roger maynard complete and total dickhead send mail you insist details
rec.sport.baseball	infield fly rule you can call time when there play progress ryan robbins penobscot hall university maine maine maine edu
rec.sport.baseball	white and black racism was about the phillies article psilink com dennis parslow psilink com writes from dan campbell dan jhunix hcf jhu edu article apr ulkyvx louisville edu pjtier ulkyvx louisville edu writes article apr pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net bob gajarsky hobokenite writes here the hard working black players none here the lazy white players mcreynolds now that time has passed what would the posts like rickey were driving his boat drunk killing himself and one his teammates what would people say bonds drunk out his skull smashed his car into tree disabling himself say willie mcgee for the season can tell you they would considered spoiled lazy say niggers this awfully presumptious you assume you can read our minds and predict the future what makes you sure would thinking these things what makes you think that there not lot people out there don think crews god anyone who dead because mistake deserves sympathy crews olin bonds mcgee rickey you why does bother you much that two dead white men are getting little sympathy would make you feel better only mourned dead black baseball players beat dead horse seem remember fair amount sympathy for some black fringe player named roberto clemente and for roy campanella and for thurman munson and for just about anyone else who may not even have liked players but mourned for dying too young wiggins alan but that besides the point sure people would feel slightly sympathetic for rickey were killed but they would also criticizing him lot more for his actions example how about jose canseco gets couple speeding tickets and all the sudden his attitude awful what the hell speeding tickets have with clubhouse influence anyway why sportswriters talk about all the time brian hunter and keith mitchell both whom had dwi problems towards the end last year two years ago was cited sign their immaturity etc meanwhile dykstra almost killed both himself and daulton and didn read any sportswriter complaining about that they may have talked about how bad was for the phillies but never read anywhere criticism dykstra character daulton intelligence for that matter based this incident david nieporent only one thing wrong with theory niepornt phoenix stupid stupidest theory ever heard princeton edu baltimore orioles who the dangerous cult the bds the batf
rec.sport.baseball	bonilla article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes article apr princeton edu roger crux princeton edu roger lustig writes article steph pegasus uiuc edu steph pegasus uiuc edu dale stephenson writes apr princeton edu roger crux princeton edu roger lustig writes black players can survive being mediocre worse how can mcrae and chamberlain explained nobody saying hard and fast rule point that white players are likely stick around longer they mediocre went through iii and made list year and who were negative both adjusted batting runs and total player rating tpr has some problems but generally not too far off for career imho all players who played most their career after were considered here are through haven done the rest yet armas bailor balboni bannister beauchamp beniquez bergman berry biittner blair bochte bonnell bosley bradford brown buckner cabell castillo cater cimoli cline clines coles collins davalillo dernier dilone gaston geiger geronimo gosger heep iorg few black players there lot white and hispanic hmmm one question how you differentiate hispanic and black after all some people fall into both categories rafael ramiriez comes mind and fit into this grouping also oops not although light hitting utility player sorry about that but miguel dilone would qualify remember correctly when say black mean born black people for the purposes this discussion hispanic players were baseball before and one team the signed lots hispanics because they went over better with the local audience than blacks did and why would more hispanics stick around than blacks don know but remember this the country that had special racial laws for one group and one group only blacks our national history includes huge long term global tensions regarding the black minority the hispanic minority while often discriminated against has never been the object national obsession might also worth your while subdivide the data into careers starting year intervals would think that your prediction would most true for careers starting the and least true for careers starting the course you also have compare total racial percentages for the era question absolutely said before expect that this effect disappearing but certainly did exist and all out talk twg and all that not without some small reason the opinion that your point less valid today than was years ago but would curious see the data well there the list for cull some more names expect you right btw roger
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris article apr ramsey laurentian maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes apr cornell edu tedward cornell edu edward ted fischer writes the contrary statistically impaired opinionated little assholes like yourself who while springing all over the continent like some dirty virus are diligently working destroying the glory sport cordially always maynard ramsey laurentian many morons and little time heheheheh sorry roger wronged you you not boring all the time this one classic cordially always hehehehehhe are you jerk people hate you are you fun parties well come the roger maynard school cordiality can teach you cordial with the best them use such time honored cordiality techniques calling people assholes comparing them viruses for advanced students comparing them dirty viruses what dirty virus and how can you tell from clean one know and here the roger maynard school cordiality can teach you know too heheheh thanks roger this made evening tom
rec.sport.baseball	why barry bonds not batting like the clark williams bonds order pitchers can only walk clark with outs unlike last year williams getting better pitches hit with bonds looming the deck circle since matt has terrible batting eye this helps the giants lot when bonds gets base all himself can try steal and then driven with single thompson manwaring clayton you bat bonds before the other sluggers then you don want him run because caught stealing could take you out big inning also bonds less need protection behind him because such good base stealer walk potential double the only draw back when clark and williams are clogging the bases infront bonds and think that problem the giants will glad see especially robby thompson gets hot ken kubey kubey wpd sgi com
rec.sport.baseball	usa mcweekly stats rvesterm vma edu writes article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione says also have the impression from reading this group and bill james that elias bunch money grubbing jerks whose mission charge much they can for baseball statistical info and bill james not yeah sure you own the bill james players rating book bill james doesn sell statistics sells books with statistics but not the business providing stats like elias stats howe baseball workshop etc are greg
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris cmeyer bloch stanford edu craig meyer writes michael chen mike cunixf columbia edu wrote any case think viola would have made better signing why viola younger and left handed how many left handed starters does toronto have well agree that viola better signing however why does everyone say that you want lefthanded starters understand lefthanded spot relievers even though they usually face more righthanded batters than lefthanded batters just don understand why people insist lefthanded starters unless there park effect yankee stadium the answer they stupid seriously think you right the money never understood the preoccupation with making sure rotation has left handed starters the only time makes sense when you have unbalanced schedule and your main rival loaded with lefthanded hitters other than that think you completely right greg
rec.sport.baseball	bonilla article mjones fenway mjones donald aix kingston ibm com writes fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes all these divisions based race religion etc make sick they should isn nice that mlb finally waking their existence isn shame that hiring practices and off the field have been discriminatory for long quick name light hitting black outfielder who lasted years the bigs bet you can name two dozen white ones otis nixon darnell coles henry cotto manny mota dominican not all that light hitting lifetime when did most his playing professional pinch hitter after that yes that also gives you jerry hairston billy hatcher beginning year now herm winningham good one lonnie smith not light hitting but horror the field not the same thing lots people are bad ofs gary redus not all that light either ops dion james not year daryl boston year this year vince coleman yeah finally started have decent obp not year cecil espy not year willie wilson yup gary pettis milt thompson year this year gary varsho six year this year admit taking quick browse through the major league handbook but only after the first and there the all time light hitting black outfielder lou brock look and curt flood cesar geronimo brock coleman and wilson were hot dog basestealers also lonnie smith that seems special class cfs like pettis and wilson also get more break especially they actually field well and brock wasn all that bad hitter either not until the end there when spoiled his ifetime and again suspect thatthe problem lessening over time but you look the history the last three decades there seems clear race based pattern which utility players and platoon players and lesser talents stayed the far longer they were white cesar cedeno light hitting lifetime ops mainly with houston also latin btw note these guys may not have reached years yet but they got close likewise for list and prediction milt cuyler come back and party talk roger
rec.sport.baseball	bonilla article mjones fenway mjones donald aix kingston ibm com writes fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes quick name light hitting black outfielder who lasted years the bigs bet you can name two dozen white ones otis nixon stole bases still light hitting but baseball managers don think they think like omar moreno before him perfect leadoff man awesome defense darnell coles still around because his when hit henry cotto hasn played years the bigs wasn full time major leaguer until manny mota consistent hitter billy hatcher see still around for his tenth year herm winningham same goes for herm lonnie smith not light hitting but horror the field doesn count then gary redus redus hardly light hitting plus stole bases close ops career against lhp dion james see still around qualify daryl boston slugged for three straight years one the worst hitters parks the going one colorado better players this year plus make ten you have count all the time spent denver and buffalo and hawaii while with the white sox vince coleman yeah finally started have decent obp coleman assuming makes was never perceived being weak offensively though course was led his first six years the majors cecil espy see still around willie wilson wilson has always been overrated but hit five times six year stretch and led the league triples five times but can count him still playing though because otis nixon deluxe with slightly worse defense gary pettis okay the league this year can count though also the majors because otis nixon syndrome milt thompson not spectacular but neither light hitting nor ten year man gary varsho halfway there and unlikely make the way there admit taking quick browse through the major league handbook but only after the first and there the all time light hitting black outfielder lou brock look and curt flood cesar geronimo cesar cedeno brock suffered from otis nixon disease but wasn perceived light hitting neither was curt flood cesar cedeno was not light hitting note these guys may not have reached years yet but they got close likewise for list and prediction milt cuyler have steal lot more bases ted frank thf kimbark uchicago edu sorry the card says moops the law school standard disclaimers
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris bwalker bnr barry walker writes article apr ramsey laurentian maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes apr newshub ariel yorku ariel yorku shawn luddington writes hey valentine don see boston with any world series rings their fingers damn morris now has three and probably the hall fame his future therefore would have say toronto easily made the best signing and don tell boston will win this year they won even the top the division more like spite what all the stat heads say jack morris played large role the jays winning the world series last year don care his era was played leadership role and did win games his era may have been high but did pitch many outstanding ball games and pitched many not outstanding ballgames too jack essentially pitched lot ball last year this certainly isn irrelevant and iif you replace morris with replacement level quality the blue jays might not win leadership don see the leadership effect there for starting pitcher you would expect see its primary effect the pitching staff you would expect see the rest the staff improve instead the rest the staff declined you can make reasonable argument for winfield providing leadership the offense picked considerably from its effectiveness the previous year not saying buy that but least that argument makes internal sense greg barry walker bnr ottawa canada opinions
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris father huge tiger fan and loyal blue jay fan who endured the collapse the heartbreak don have the stat book let throw them out first all morris his heyday clemens present how many youngs does morris have how many youngs does clemens have ballparks and such fenway average pitchers park detroit hugh hitters paradise morris great team pitcher sort the doug drabek mold morris team needs well pitched game minn morris snaps the ball and throw for otherwise just tries get people out for clemens the elias stat book believe that clemens has the best lifetime record for his team compared when doesn pitch how bad would the red sox have been last year without him can you say phillies believe clemens the better pitcher because more power and hsi great tenacity morris among the guttiest pitchers ever seen but clemens class with seaver carlton etc paul sparks
rec.sport.baseball	royals final run total mitchell bose kbos carina unm edu wrote the toronto blue jays scored fine ignore that one coming from and all that teach not qualify statements the oakland scored thundering runs bleah something shoot for the royals will score runs less this season although they just decided get mcrae out the leadoff spot course valentine will throw this one back face when the royals even manage outscore another team sean sean sweda sweda css itd umich edu css itd consultant gammons idiotic quote the week manager motor city marauders there better home run park internet baseball league baseball than tiger stadium
rec.sport.baseball	baseball spanish recently heard the red sox wrol spanish speaking radio station thought was unreal the red sox spanish anyway want find out how widespread this being native know the scmets are spanish but not the yankmes wuold think that texas and fla are spanish are there any spanish speaking networks this local
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes have way knowing because cannot separate morris contribu tion from the rest the team there only one way determin ing best baseball and that looking the scoreboard the end the game each game determines which team the best that day the end the season the team that was the best the most often the best the division the playoffs determine the best the best but the point that the only decision making pro cess used determine the best the score the game and lates the teams not the individual players there method inherent baseball comparing individual performances and that how should because after all baseball team game and you know what there such method inherent real life either would assume you would endorse the notion that cannot state with any level objectivity that mother theresa has accomplished more good this world than joseph stalin after all life earth team effort you want select group statistics and claim that clemens has done better with those statistics criteria then fine but you have able prove that those statistics measure the individual contribution winning the because that the only measure best that has any meaning the context base ball until you can prove that clemens contributes cham pionship more than morris your evaluation clemens totally sub jective and mere opinion have yet see that any you can predict winner with any greater accuracy than jeanne dixon have you tried glasses find them quite useful after all there must some reason you choose ignore the mounds evidence present too bad you feel necessary close your mind and eyes knowledge you live poorer life result that choice heck wager that you could predict winner with greater accuracy than jeanne dixon and you know why because have full confidence that despite your protestations the contrary you are quite capable using the knowledge can come with through statistical methods boost your knowledge level you don have rude have you tried calling kettle black for you say that means that you have either missed the entire point argument you yourself have committed fallacy ignoratio elenchi not saying that morris better than clemens because has more rings although have tongue cheek claimed that the past saying that impossible isolate individual performance from that his team for the purpose comparing that individual performance with another individual per formance other words your world you cannot objectively state that jack morris was more important the blue jays than leiter last year your world that may indeed true fortunately the world the rest occupy not hope you never serve jury roger think the rest the jury would have kill you there way can objectively judge the defendant innocent guilty you see there are billion other people this planet have way knowing whether the defendant would have committed the crime wasn for all the other people the planet have way knowing how the defendant would have acted had been different planet because living this planet team effort and individual committs crime totally isolated from his society part that society that being case anything have say his culpability would absolute subjectivity refuse vote greg
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes qvag innsvo lynx unm edu kbos carina unm edu mitchell bose writes article apr ramsey laurentian maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes again you had lee your team last year you would wearing ring this year yes manny lee was your team last year your team would have been the toronto blue jays team the albuquerque leftturns manny lee were team would not wearing ring nor would however were manny lee team again manny lee was your team last year your team would not have been the albuquerque leftturns would have been the toronto blue jays how that possible was the albuquerque leftturns last year how could you possibly know what team would manny lee was his team last year after all manny lee wasn his team last year complete unfounded speculation state that was the same team manny lee last year would have been the team the toronto blue jays since and lee weren the same team you cannot possibly objectively state what team they would have been they had both been the same team greg
rec.sport.baseball	let play the name game article apr newshub ariel yorku ariel yorku shawn luddington writes how about changing team names post your choices minnesota lumberjacks thought bunyons paul not sore feet babes big blue seattle rainiers think this was considered the new ownership harkening back aaa glory days and placating least one local brewer kent dietz twins mariners sometime this century
rec.sport.baseball	wounded redbirds article apr bme ccf org tknuth bio ccf org writes article acad drake edu sbp acad drake edu writes does anyone know the status jeffries arocha arocha broke his finger trying field ground ball was put the after the game and may require surgery the injury his fielding hand which good unfortunately may have some ligament damage and may require surgery which would lay him for while don know about jefferies apparently just strain some sort hasn been put the probably just day day aaron
rec.sport.baseball	bob dylan baseball abstract never heard the bob dylan baseball abstract but curious could someone clue phil brown aka csc albany edu
rec.sport.baseball	why barry bonds not batting article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione writes whether does him any good have bonds behind him the net stat mavens will probably tell you there reason that should but thinks will might self fulfilling prophecy don understand williams lack ability which you say above and agree with which causes him swing bad pitches how will thinking that bonds hitting behind him will help him stop chasing bad pitches didn mean that would necessarily help him improve that specific deficiency meant that having bonds bat behind him gives williams possibly unfounded confidence that might translate into more hitting productivity but you right williams biggest problem more physical than mental that less likely make difference michael zimmers voice softhelp suppliers software developers data
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris since roger canadian who probably knows nothing about baseball gonna try explain him terms hockey according his logic can say that since bob errey better than wayne gretzky hey errey contributed cups while good old wayne has won nothing think the kings should trade gretzky for errey what you think roger ziyun
rec.sport.baseball	hits stolen centerfield article steph pegasus uiuc edu dale stephenson writes nhs net hits stolen extra outs compared average fielder neb net extra bases extra bases prevented compared avg fielder national league name nhs neb dcon dops lankford martinez butler american league name nhs neb dcon dops wilson felix suspect that splits such these are the result positioning outfielder who fast and gets good jump would expected catch lot balls preventing both singles and doubles and also cut off more uncatchable balls turinging doubles into singles however fielder who plays shallow will catch more short flies and fewer long flies this means that will allow fewer singles but more doubles has anyone seen these players positioning butler and felix play deep and lankford martinez and wilson shallow this park effect thought butler liked play shallow david grabiner grabiner zariski harvard edu are sorry but the number you have dialed imaginary please rotate your phone degrees and try again disclaimer speak for one and one speaks for
rec.sport.baseball	stats and standings forgot mention that the stats are for games through doug
rec.sport.baseball	braves update article apr zeus calpoly edu jplee cymbal calpoly edu jason lee writes you simply cannot show umpire like ron gant did disrespectful not only the home plate umpire but the dignity the game but course expected that umpires will show players don get wrong understand the nature the game but just believe that little ego ectomy for the umpires would make the game much better ted social nags and body bags make you dead what drag drag drag saigon kick body bags the lizard krueger gas uug arizona edu
rec.sport.baseball	bosox win again against seattle article jxu black clarku edu jxu black clarku edu dark wing duck writes last night boston red sox win its games games beating seattle roger clemson pitch not dominate walked least man first inns but valetin and greenwell hit homeruns and red sox prevail clemens struggled with his control but was also the beneficiary some pretty shoddy umpiring but fair most the walks were early the game and adjusted was also helped dare say some pretty good defense the sox including rivera playing second not his normal position actually clemens pretty lucky that got the win considering the sox almost gave the lead the bottom the error catching throw over think that game must win for red sox seattle considering darwin will faced seattle ace randy johnson tonight must win april they already won more games far than anyone thought they would this point the season hope people aren getting too caught this streak been fun but teams have streaks all the time and only when they are the start the season that they get much attention charles
rec.sport.baseball	wounded redbirds article acad drake edu sbp acad drake edu writes does anyone know the status jeffries arocha arocha broke his finger trying field ground ball was put the after the game and may require surgery don know about jefferies
rec.sport.baseball	the mystery ron gant article news duke edu fls keynes econ duke edu forrest smith writes article apr mnemosyne edu msilverm nyx edu mike silverman writes any you experts want analyze ron gant omeone sure needs analyze him gant head case his what six seven years the majors put together combined total maybe one good season lacks self confidence but worse doesn really understand baseball curiously seems perform best when his job threatened sit him down for game and might get hit the next night but let him play and what thinking about getting hits driving runs worried going get that stolen bases that career home run appears have learning curve never figured out how play third base what fiasco still plays the outfield with his legs lucky fast because enables him outrun his mistakes but suggested earlier the season looks like slowing down little bit else every groundskeeper watering the infield dirt little extra gant has had way too much chance already may get hot again for couple months but always revert his true level gant record age this season year obp slg base expt year the majors for parts seasons total playing time approx seasons just looking his hitting record had seasons ops greater than which pretty good for his season pretty decent for rookie the move third base explains lot his when returned began hitting again and course last year slumped but learning curve has obviously improved his batting eye over the years well his ratio his fielding was infielder when was drafted bman came through the braves system and then the braves put him through position changes the space year adequate although not great and least some your perception his fielding colored watching him learn play the the level know you another long term braves fan about playing imo that the most difficult position field after catcher you need more range and speed but you got have quick reflexes and have gun for arm there are second chances even when playing sandlot softball granted still put best overall infielder but that because gets more chances not because the job harder still amazes that many teams have tried convert other position players but maybe that because the supply natural scarce finally gant player who puts pressure himself perform well and works hard improve you don get those amazingly huge arms that relatively small body without lot weight work now whether been overdoing these days may valid question the question whether tries too hard make something happen during each bat but frankly player going not live potential much rather they fail trying too hard than not trying hard enough you might able teach relaxation adult but that age don believe you can teach hustle all that said don think sign gant another long term contract now and think free agent eligible years when given his career curve and limitations wouldn expect him last much past ballplayer might surprise here but atlanta got some talent the farm and rather take chances down the road with nieves eric
rec.sport.baseball	hbp big cat woods ncar ucar edu greg woods writes article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david tate writes course this not the same claiming some that galarraga inability defer gratification isn hurting his team because isn paid walk rbi guy whatever alright that enough suffered with all kinds insults typical for the net but give break galarraga currently batting over and you guys are complaining that isn drawing enough walks what would have please you guys bat you can hardly claim that hurting his team would help his obp were higher than his batting average yes the april usa today lists grand chapeau having batting average and obp that for hitting with zip nil nada walks the reason lot are down galarraga that has long history showing that this nowhere near his real level ability except for drawing walks hit for say even convinced that there was real change his ability did with obp avg not only amazed but make bet that that would unique feat the history the game but what prove look some the other fluke players this point the season player avg blauser grace milligan conine lansing slaught are any these guys really that good well word how significant galarraga average the level hit worth about had one those hits called error and one taken away good defensive play the range goes for his next game all the way down one game come back june let talk then happens that the pitchers start throwing him fewer good pitches and starts making lots outs someone speculated might happen then would agree with you that isn taking enough pitches comment that isn paid walk doesn mean that should have license swing bad pitches and make outs more along the lines batting and leading the league rbi what bloody difference does make isn drawing lot walks sheesh history greg andres history that doesn walk much because swings bad pitches his average isn very good doesn mean awful lot compared history couple thousand especially when there ample evidence that his basic hitting approach hasn changed yeah might suddenly have turned into hitter who never walks but don bet the rent money mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com from historical basis middle east conflicts not last long time dan quayle nightline october
rec.sport.baseball	candlestick original article newsgroups rec sport baseball path butch netcomsv netcom com csus edu wupost uwm edu zaphod mps ohio state from scunning louven berkeley edu sean cunningham subject candlestick message apr pasteur berkeley edu sender nntp pasteur berkeley edu nntp poster nntp posting host louven berkeley edu organization university california berkeley date wed apr gmt lines hey folks saw the giants play ball the stick saturday april was the game where pendelton broke the scoreless tie the ninth with two out two run homer right win wasn the game where the fans threw the give away fotoballs onto the field response the homer too bad huh well the stick still cold the saturday game ended and was cold then can imagine night games april the stick the wind kicked little too and got this idea most games there pile hot dog wrappers and cups and trash the field lot the time propose kid clean corps composed mainly year old kids who would love nothing better than run out the field the fifth inning when the guy the toro smooths the infield and grab the trash might not glamorous but that age probably would have given anything the field with the ballplayers everybody wins here whaddaya think sean was opening day the stadium and new owners were great pick candlesti anytime over the giants playing out state only wish the buttheads san jose had enough balls vote for stadium here
rec.sport.baseball	baseball logos available via anonymous ftp article apr dal arishem dal writes well thanks matthew wall the major league baseball logos which been posting over the past number weeks now have home the internet baseball archive get them ftp eucalyptus swarthmore edu login anonymously per usual and the baseball misc graphics directory both the gif files and the uuencoded versions are available darren darren reiniger reiniger dal arishem dal centre for marine geology dalhousie university halifax canada people who wonder where this generation going should remind themselves where came from the first place have successfully copied all the uuencoded versions these logos local directory but when tried the gif files said permission denied could you explain why and also how execute the uuencoded files thanks ken ken cruz nfl champs dallas cowboys johns hopkins university mlb champs baltimore orioles baltimore maryland all star game oriole park camden yards
rec.sport.baseball	you could look yes could look but prefer post this question the net read somewhere long forgotten article that the handsignals used major league umps were originally used help deaf ball player the name dummy urban myth true gots know mark mbrownel alchemy chem utoronto
rec.sport.baseball	hbp big cat article srg cpt odin corp sgi com kubey sgi com ken kubey writes didn say that pitcher fear throwing strikes guys like mcgwire bonds and frank thomas was rational just said that exists but why mcgwire and not carter can see some justification for bonds thomas because they tend have higher batting averages but the major difference see between mcgwire and carter that carter doesn draw walks why aren pitchers afraid throw strikes carter sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	harry caray article blue cis pitt edu traven pitt edu neal traven writes btw have had show hands about who will attending this year sabr national san diego there will and the ultimate lurker sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	stats trying find site that has updated daily stats more the national league take both leagues but really interested the national league how about them philadelphia sillies
rec.sport.baseball	bases loaded walk gives reds win article mssc netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes article apr pts mot com pts mot com writes article netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes during spring training made similarly innoncent looking comment about clutch hitting this and the flames were flying such thing clutch hitting they the sdcn all screamed assumed they also meant there was such thing any kind clutch performance given their comments still licking the wounds but have rebuttal planned gotta homework they say some deletions rather they showed quite convincingly that past clutch performance has never been able predict future clutch performance sure you are convinced dave apparently tony perez however not believe the time the sabo plate appearance that juan samuel was the bench available for pinch hit duty over the past four seasons non clutch clutch sabo samuel not claim that this complete statistical analysis that proves the existence clutch hitting compelling testimony that samuel would have gotten base hit sure there something wrong with the sample size that the basic assumption that clutch performance random invalidates any conclusions from this limited application something other don pretend understand statistical analysis well agree the last part one the basic things you need have statistic able predict player performance the future for there correlation from year year player batting average correlated fairly well from year year player ability walk infielder defensive average are correlated better that say given their past performance those statistics can have pretty good handle how they next year put some simple information about aging and you can even better one the basic problems with something like clutch batting average overall batting average that the correlation from year year almost zero adding the sample size doesn seem help much counterexample what you showed consider the following two players from non clutch clutch maldonado lemon you had had these two players your logic those clutch situations you bat maldonado for lemon blink eye well maldonado hit non clutch and clutch while lemon hit non clutch and clutch before you accuse completely cooking the data there were players who had clutch bats every year from according elias simple measure clutchness let just look clutch non clutch you use predict for those players you find that the were below league average that measure both and were above league average both periods and the other were above one and below the other you were just flipping coins you expect get above below both and that switched the difference between the observed results and the coin flip experiment not statisically significant btw correlating players overall batting average from with gives correlation coefficient which significant something better than the confidence level correlating their clutch non clutch for the same period gives correlation significant level any interest everyone would agree hope that grand slam the bottom the ninth when your team down three very clutch hit there just way predict who more likely get the clutch hit based past performance hitting clutch situations you say dave way actually technically incorrect say that can predict future clutch performance more correct say that can predict future clutch performance with any skill harold harold brooks hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu national severe storms laboratory norman used work for brewery too but didn drink the job bavasi dal maxvill view that florida can win the east
rec.sport.baseball	mlb standings and scores for fri apr mlb standings and scores for friday april including yesterday games national west won lost pct last streak home road san francisco giants won houston astros won atlanta braves lost san diego padres won los angeles dodgers lost colorado rockies lost cincinnati reds lost national east philadelphia phillies lost montreal expos won louis cardinals won pittsburgh pirates won chicago cubs lost new york mets lost florida marlins won american west won lost pct last streak home road california angels won texas rangers lost minnesota twins won chicago white sox won seattle mariners won oakland athletics lost kansas city royals lost american east boston red sox lost detroit tigers won new york yankees won toronto blue jays won milwaukee brewers lost cleveland indians lost baltimore orioles lost yesterday scores idle teams listed alphabetical order national league american league san diego padres boston red sox philadelphia phillies seattle mariners los angeles dodgers chicago white sox montreal expos baltimore orioles cincinnati reds milwaukee brewers pittsburgh pirates minnesota twins atlanta braves toronto blue jays florida marlins kansas city royals colorado rockies cleveland indians louis cardinals california angels san francisco giants new york yankees new york mets oakland athletics chicago cubs idle detroit tigers idle houston astros idle texas rangers idle joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
rec.sport.baseball	juggling dodgers mssc netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes this true note that don think lasorda should fired for least two reasons publicly humiliating his players knuckling under his players wishes there fine line between getting players input and knuckling under players demands manager much like military officer needs have his her players complete obedience and respect during game after the game big deal but when there time more than react players must trust the manager the team often falls apart see boston red sox strawberry demeanor represented the media often sounds like demands suspect that comment like enjoy hitting fourth used would get pretty brutally misinterpreted the media came from strawberry russ porter quoted strawberry saying feel more comfortable hitting cleanup and think perform best that role paraphrased memory and bias that seems like fairly non petulant answer what was almost certainly question like how you feel about being moved the third spot the order more media sensitive player might answer the manager knows what doing thinks that batting third will help the team then all for ignore that answer brown stuff seems little bit overreaction brand darryl response petulant personally think his argument nonsense and that really doesn matter much which order the players the order are batted except for personal stats were darryl probably answer that question the number four spot gets few more rbi opportunities and get paid for rbis think best for bat fourth but willing hit third tommy thinks will benefit the team something like that would helpful salary time rbis were down because was hitting third and make him sound like team player since strawberry will not likely through arbitration but use the free agent market for his next contract maybe that argument useless but would help his image with the media without appearing totally content free remember the media the belief that one best rbi man should hit fourth the argument sensible regardless whether not true jeff
rec.sport.baseball	box boston seattle boston seattle riles felder quintana cotto greenwell sasser dawson griffey vaughn buhner calderon boone cooper martinez john valentin blowers pena valle vizquel totals totals boston seattle greenwell boston seattle lob boston seattle boone off hesketh felder blowers boston hesketh quantrill fossas harris ryan seattle bosio hesketh pitched two batters the fourth bos dawson vaughn john valentin cooper sea buhner griffey blowers boone bos riles quintana sea felder buhner martinez umpires voltaggio kaiser johnson mckean
rec.sport.baseball	chicago visit planning weekend chicago next month for first live and person cubs game would appreciate any advice from locals used locals where stay what see where dine etc mail replies are fine thanks advance teresa teresa hagerman ohio state university
rec.sport.baseball	sex uniforms and good taste article apr news brandeis edu pip brandeis edu writes article network ucsd edu king cogsci ucsd edu jonathan king writes which reminds yet again bucs cards game whitey herzog last year cards manager karen and were watching the game and for some barely explicable reason the camera kept dwelling the white rhino himself his uniform filling worst truly horrible you remember game the nlcs after the dodgers defeated the mets and ugh dugh foo boo fat stomach tom lasorda came running out the field celebration yuck undulated his arms flew and down keeping time with his rolling set stomachs which flew all around the cozy confines chavez ravine oozed like white gastropod ran was disgusting sight not only couldn watch mets the series had watch fat stomach lasorda roll around dodger blargh but what made memorable was what karen eventually said about this which was would rather sleep with jar bill landrum spit under pillow than look whitey herzog one those uniforms you like short fat men who grunt curse and spit lot whitey certainly your man former wfan host pete franklin the white rat but true this emphasis the appearance ballplayers tight uniforms only works the player actually has extraodinary physique looking charlie hough scrawny torso through those tight white shirts just sort makes decide hmmm don want eat lunch today tomorrow anytime soon when harazin first became mets was asked intended help redesign the mets uniforms and change their image particular they asked him about the orange and blue racing stripe that runs down the sides the uniforms said that very much favor keeping them because they sleek and they sexy sid fernandez tight fitting uniform with sleek racing stripe denote speed and potencty mmmmmmmm lard kevin mcreynolds diving after fly ball mmmmmmmm man war baby pat howell well never mind nothing could tight him they don make uniform sizes that small adam wishes contribute something more interesting levin jason miller some doctor guy frank tanana
rec.sport.baseball	greg maddux run support know you all were saying the braves score few runs for maddux that shut that guy but think just keep track bit longer last outing runs total date runs games braves record maddux starts see next time dennis dennis parslow that better korean good troy luck symbol remo williams psilink com
rec.sport.baseball	yakult swallows japanese pro baseball team tuesday game beloved yakult swallows jingu hanshin tigers beloved yakult ito nakagomi yakult arai central league standing pct hiroshima carp chunichi dragons hanshin tigers hated giants beloved swallows yokohama baystars hiroshi yajima mail yajima nttcom ntt ntt network information systems laboratories midori cho chome musashino shi tokyo japan tel fax
rec.sport.baseball	obp hurt sac flies was hbp big cat article apr rigel econ uga edu scottm helena stat uga edu scott mclure writes sorry gotta disagree here last time played ball went several occasions intending hit fly ball deep enough score the runner from third advance runner third relatively easy actually you swing under the path the ball you normally would hit good line drive with fastballs very easy much more difficult with good breaking balls good hitter with excellent bat control can voluntarily hit fly balls the outfield least the time maybe more there blurb the stats scoreboard about this and though don have the book with here memory that the best hitting sac flies were far below this number sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	football baseball was game length article apr almserv uucp ucja fnma com chris allen writes article ast saic com sac asdi saic com steve conroy writes major league baseball trying expand its appeal people with shorter attention spans the football crowd invariably all the arguments from people who don like watch baseball say the same thing the games are too long and too boring baseball trying find way shorten the games for wider appeal you look though baseball games last around the same amount time football games the difference that there more action that duration football games perhaps there were more action baseball games you would get more those fans tune anyway coming with solution make baseball more appealing bigger crowd going difficult soapbox yet another reason get commisioner now since obvious that ruling baseball comittee works about fast snail race nebraska off soapbox how can you say there more action football then baseball football game consists approximately plays and the average duration play around seconds this means that game that lasts approximately hours you have about minute action baseball game you have upwards two hundred pitches there are very few field strategy field stratgy sessions huddles and you always have chance win until the last out made but the illusion football that there always lots action and sense urgency because the game clock not all the time but happens when there less than minutes quite often this sense creates drama even when there may not necessarily any and that holds viewer attention baseball only players are involved the action for about here comes wild guess the time and they just playing sophisticated game catch hold the ball step out the box adjust chains touch self interesting locations there lot dead time with the players warming between innings the manager visiting the pitcher the mound the manager removing the pitcher and bringing relief pitcher who then takes pitches helen dell playing the organ dodger fans will appreciate that one the non baseball junkie this boring any rate not putting baseball down for this been avid fan since can remember just that watching baseball game home can tedious for the non baseball junkie that what major league baseball and the networks are trying address when they talk shortening the game because not because football has more action than baseball steve conroy conroy terminus saic com gone man solid gone science applications baloo international corporation
rec.sport.baseball	why barry bonds not batting punjabi leland stanford edu sanjeev punjabi writes some evidence that not working take look the standings real easy get focussed minutinae and forget that the giants happen first place working you don screw changing things just because you think ought different some folks like argue about theoretical details prefer watch teams win when the giants slip third then can talk about how arrange the batting order until then think stupid focus what wrong for the simple fact that working does the mailing list maintainer think that will clark the best first baseman the majors and that matt williams better power hitter than any other ballplayer the majors don follow won comment majors the had choice any the league for team clark and hit him third fantasy team has both grace and murray because never been able get clark take any the three without hesitation real life but think clark williams not even close much prefer his defense but when isn headcasing matt has good solid swing and some real punch drops then wanders out cleanup but according the latest baseball weekly hitting and the last week hitting that not exactly chopped liver mostly though the giants are winning and frankly long that continues rather silly second guess their strategy but evidently some folks would rather right than first chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd
rec.sport.baseball	obp hurt sac flies was hbp big cat scottm helena stat uga edu scott mclure writes article apr mnemosyne edu gspira nyx edu greg spira writes paladin leland stanford edu jason gische writes article apr cornell edu tedward cornell edu edward ted fischer writes think sac flies are the only way obp can below does this seem dumb anyone else the fact not the comment why should batter obp hurt sac fly especially sac bunts don have the same effect since they the same thing but sac flies usually score run while bunts just advance base but both these situations involve the batter giving for the benefit the team sacrifice why should hurt their stats the sac bunt purposeful act ordered the manager the batter does not trying get sac fly and the evidence available indicates that there such ability players can will themselves hit sac flies they fly out the same place just often when there nobody third greg sorry gotta disagree here last time played ball went several occasions intending hit fly ball deep enough score the runner from third advance runner third relatively easy actually you swing under the path the ball you normally would hit good line drive with fastballs very easy much more difficult with good breaking balls good hitter with excellent bat control can voluntarily hit fly balls the outfield least the time you haven been facing major league pitching maybe more you have good the plate and most those guys are just likely opt for getting the base hit and helping their average getting the sacrifice the best example know jerry willard the series against minnesota all had was put one the and the game was over swung waaaaaay past parallel and accomplished barely getting the run safely stats did little study the scoreboard book entitled can you hit sacrifice flies purpose summary the findings over the year period sac fly type fly balls were produced percent the time situations where sac fly was useful and percent the time when sac fly wasn useful they looked the leaders sac flies and found that the leaders sac flies other words the guys you would expect good hit sac fly type fly balls only more often when they needed difference way too small the result skill essentially the players who hit lot sac flies seem because they hit hit sac fly type flies often with and without runner third stats concludes appears conclusive that hitters cannot hit sacrifice flies purpose even they practice the batting cage greg
rec.sport.baseball	how does pitcher get save the subject line says all what the rule that qualifies pitcher making save
rec.sport.baseball	looking for strategic boardgame for baseball last year nine year old son fell love with baseball and now likes play and follow the professionals would like buy him board game can catch glimpse and practise little the managerial stragegy not looking for computer game any type game where manual dexterity determines the winner after something that and his friends can spread out over table rainy day and spend some thoughtful time over would appreciate the names any recommended games don follow this newsgroup mail responses would ideal michael mgoddard ehd hwc michael goddard fax environmental health centre tunney pasture ottawa canada mgoddard ehd hwc michael goddard fax environmental health centre tunney pasture ottawa canada
rec.sport.baseball	twins update twins update posted april the twins defeated the milwaukee brewers today conclude three game homestand with the brew crew the twins took two three games the series with scores follows tuesday april mil winning pitcher banks wednesday april mil hartley thursday april mil deshaies aguilera highlight low lights the series jim deshaies continues the surprise not only the twins but the american league well going into today game deshaies was with era deshaies allowed earned runs innings meaning his era will climb slightly deshaies who came via trade with philadelphia which sent david west there continues make andy macphail look like true genius willie banks has put together two solid starts for the twins going innings monday while coasting solid twins hitting deshaies and banks now combine for the twins eight victories while tapani mahomes erickson are wednesday game marked the first opposing left handed starting pitcher for the twins this year rickey bones the twins teed off against both him and subsequent relief including grand slam kent hrbek which pushed the lead the twins pitching staff could not hold the lead though allowing walks the inning which scored and coming with bases loaded tapani gave one walk before being relieved guthrie two walks and mike hartley one walk before the inning was over this tied the game and the brew crew rocked mike hartley for runs the top the tenth win aguilera continues shaky against the brew crew career blown saves have come against the brew crew and today game was shaky well coming into the ninth with lead aguilera gave solo vaughn then hits darryl hamilton and dickie thon before finally retiring the side once again the tying run made second base aggie weak hearted twins fans are advised not watch aggie the ninth general news pedro munoz continues improve outfielder playing left field tuesday game continues bat weakly against right handed pitching though which has limited his playing time gene larkin and bruett former gopher have been playing right field both can bat left handed the twins begin three game series with the detroit tigers tomorrow starting pitching tentatively scheduled erickson mahomes banks the detroit tigers have had two run games the last ten days and should provide quite challenge the young pitching staff the twins have this year three each from puckett hrbek and winfield the third fourth and fifth batters respectively brian harper pegged the first baserunners attempting steal second this year and shows much improvement this category jim deshaies has three pick offs and one balk this year some say has the best base move baseball this move has enabled him pitch out some tight early jams and has certainly contributed his start watch see umpiring crews began calling the balk more tightly response opposing team complaints about his leg kicking behind the rubber the pick off move current mlb west standings from joesph hernandez jtchern ocb berkeley edu american west won lost pct last streak home road california angels won texas rangers lost minnesota twins lost chicago white sox won seattle mariners won oakland athletics lost kansas city royals won
rec.sport.baseball	want allstar tickets want all star tickets does anyone know how can get some are they for public sale are they sold out you just have work for company with some anyway any answers would appreciated please mail thanks andrew
rec.sport.baseball	hits stolen first base pinnh gap caltech edu jeff smoggy caltech edu jeff goldsmith writes steph pegasus uiuc edu steph pegasus uiuc edu dale stephenson writes finally throw all this into formula call defensive contribution dcon you did mean defcon didn you well although admit that more exciting than rat killer dale stephenson steph uiuc edu baseball fanatic considered good look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	why barry bonds not batting article apr hpcvaac com paula koufax com paul andresen writes article apr leland stanford edu punjabi leland stanford edu sanjeev punjabi writes having bonds batting behind williams means that matt will get more good pitches hit this important since struggles much with breaking balls opposing pitchers don want walk williams get bonds have wonder this good hitter behind you argument really valid has anyone done study this paula koufax com paul andresen hewlett packard you want study look matt williams the year after mitchell was gone look further not scientific study but show the truth for matt besides bonds wants bat tim you want actual analysis batting order look analysis baseball batting order monte carlo simulation freeze journal the operations research scoiety america
rec.sport.baseball	warning homeowners low flying aircraft and astronomers oakland california sunday april pdt jose mesa storm davis you have been warned gary huckabay outside that was right down the bleedin pipe balder than any kenny realize don have great control but dave the net mon gary that was styrofoam cup the really plate foot your right throw the ball
rec.sport.baseball	why barry bonds not batting article car apple com chuq apple com chuq von rospach writes some folks like argue about theoretical details prefer watch teams win when the giants slip third then can talk about how arrange the batting order until then think stupid focus what wrong for the simple fact that working this fine strategy you expect run away with the division but the giants are going need every break they can get they want too hold that lead don think they can afford lackadaisical and say well has worked pretty well far and while might able improve the results don think worth the risk mostly though the giants are winning and frankly long that continues rather silly second guess their strategy but evidently some folks would rather right than first the two tend hand hand cheers valentine
rec.sport.baseball	mets trivia question article apr big mko dec com francus big mko dec com yoseff francus writes article news duke edu simon hercules acpub duke edu writes name three met pitchers that have lost every team the majors except colorado and florida which two also defeated every team the majors dan nolan ryan qualifies both counts would guess that viola the other one who has beaten and also lost every team the majors viola has only played the with the mets not possible for him have defeated lost every team ditto for tanana who was mentioned previous post the pitcher lose every team probably tom seaver but could koosman don remember seaver managed get win against the white sox his brief sojourn with boston say the other pitcher defeat every team either mike torrez bounced around enough for long enough period time koosman mentioned would also guess that one these two did not manage beat every team did manage lose every team tom thomas talavage purdue university electrical engineering grad student grad school the greatest time one life where they pay you what you have spent the last years becoming good
rec.sport.baseball	john wetteland derek lilliquist info please with all the recent problems the indians have been having with their pitching staff have heard numerous names thrown around about who could solve their problem one name have not heard mike soper far know soper has had pretty good minor league stats why not give the kid chance anyone know anything about this guy russell peterson everyone believes something rbp stratus com believe have another beer
rec.sport.baseball	twins update article apr sctc com macomber sctc com chuck macomber writes wednesday game marked the first opposing left handed starting pitcher for the twins this year rickey bones nice post chuck but you made just one mistake bones right handed pitcher however hrbek grand slam came off graehme lloyd lefty salty
rec.sport.baseball	southpaw can anyone out there tell why they call left handed pitchers southpaw also the story how the term originated thanks cubs prediction they will finish over this year without winning the east
rec.sport.baseball	baseball spanish dateline tue apr antonio pera icop csa edu wrote all recently heard the red sox wrol spanish speaking radio station thought was unreal the red sox spanish anyway want find out how widespread this being native know the scmets are spanish but not the yankmes wuold think that texas and fla are spanish are there any spanish speaking networks this local for the last couple years the braves have been fostering program reach the latin american audience this has included licensing spanish fan magazines encouraging spanish broadcasts and marketing programs directed the latin american community one the biggest heros the latin american audience has been francisco cabrerra fact which was slightly embarrassed one funny story that during spring training the braves played game mexico this game was broadcast back atlanta spanish took the broadcasters few innings get rythm going because they had keep changing their location seems took while find place where they could get clear signal their cellular phones through which they were calling the game david deitch gis atlanta fidonet uucp uucp wittsend gisatl deitch gateway faq internet deitch gisatl fidonet org david deitch galaxy information system administrator gis atlanta user david deitch fido via fidonet node
rec.sport.baseball	yankee thoughts scott asd com scott barman writes article apr clam com sam steamer clam com sam mandelbaum writes wade boggs live boston and like wade lot but his career winding down and would rather see the yanks start develop long term solution hensley muelins russ davis velarde besides wade just doesn have any range what shame about charlie hayes huh who would you have playing wade boggs charlie hayes choice boggs contest will give them time develop younger talent area the yankee farm system seems deficient hem two words russell davis playing the cavern albany last year down the alleys and center davis went with homers there aren any small parks the road the eastern league either and his mle was have fielding statistics but from seeing him number times last year say that not brooks robinson but neither howard johnson unless they think they can win the pennant this year which seems possible and need boggs think they making the same sort mistake with davis that boston made with boggs leaving him the minors for two three years after shown that was good hitter spike owen see wade boggs much rather see them develop dave silvestri whoever wade and spike next each other the infield going raise the yankee staff era point and these guys are the down sides their careers too bad they gave randy valarde too many trips the columbus shuttle hrm they still have him the roster through the first two weeks they just never figured out what with him suspect that hits enough especially lefties reasonable shortstop one rumor running around during spring training was that they wanted convert silvestri catcher because his body type was wrong for shortstop you think that somebody the same division who plays baltimore about dozen times year would know better mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com one our guys went down just doubled confusion there didn require rhodes scholar two teammates went down four yours would had protect guys don drysdale
rec.sport.baseball	apology for article article eskimo com steven thornton writes article apr tesla njit edu drm tesla njit edu writes just watch mattingly below average fielder before you start yes have proof there are really only two adequate ways measure fielding prowess the first which has the advantage being applicable older players since uses raw data available for almost all mlb history the total chances per game method favored the total baseball people among others basically says that you measure fielder how many balls gets but subject all kinds bias and almost completely useless for first basemen from the raw stats there way tell which first baseman putouts were made throws from other fielders and which were made his own plays likewise you can tell whether double play was fielding runs thus gives first baseman credit for putouts double plays only for assists and errors thus favors first basemen who play deep reaching lot balls but forcing the pitcher cover first more frequently also hurts first baseman who play behind left handed pitching staffs and thus face few left handed batters better method but newer and based ondata that has only been collected over the last few years measures the percentage balls hit into the part the field the guy responsible for this better course still isn all first baseman defense some references mattingly defensive rating stats method from mike gimbel baseball player and team ratings defensive average which uses larger and probably better zones has mattingly tied for second the league the other hand has contributed runs his batting actions pretty healthy number while batting runs good mostly the past the runs produced don say much about his value david grabiner grabiner zariski harvard edu are sorry but the number you have dialed imaginary please rotate your phone degrees and try again disclaimer speak for one and one speaks for
rec.sport.baseball	bases loaded walk gives reds win redreport article mssc netcom com mark singer writes article vhlh idz usenet ucs indiana edu rstimets silver ucs indiana edu robert and stimets writes game that saw little everything incredible defense some power clutch pitching and little wildness the reds managed overcome their trademark lack timely hitting crucial situations during spring training made similarly innoncent looking comment about clutch hitting this and the flames were flying such thing clutch hitting they the sdcn all screamed assumed they also meant there was such thing any kind clutch performance given their comments this certainly not the case there significant ability toi perform the clutch but clutch performance certainly happens every time there game winning hit the clutch pitching quoted above something which happened not claim that any particular player should expected clutch pitcher over the past four seasons sabo has had hits abs defined clutch situations the scouting report for average over that same period had another abs with hits for average according the rest the sdcn any differential such this completely and totally random and cannot used for any reasonable inference such perhaps perez should have used pinch hitter that situation simple statistics tell that there chance average clutch hitter would have this large split the average decrease points standard deviation about there will such hitters any league just there will hitters who hit poorly tuesdays and there only very weak correlation best study between clutch hitting the last four years and clutch hitting this year probably because most the clutch data determinaed luck rather than any ability based only this data don see any reason pinch hit for sabo any other player who had been poor clutch hitter the past but there are many other factors involved decision pinch hit does the pinch hitter give you platoon advantage any portion sabo clutch split that results from his platoon split certainly real ability even has nothing with clutch hitting you have singles hitter the plate when you need home run you have curveball pitcher facing batter who has trouble with curves david grabiner grabiner zariski harvard edu are sorry but the number you have dialed imaginary please rotate your phone degrees and try again disclaimer speak for one and one speaks for
rec.sport.baseball	mvp revisited article innc gap caltech edu tim shippert writes ideally dhs should the strongest offensive players because any schmoe can play can hit that would take care position corrected anomolies such frank since that not the case and why not always this way then are going have trouble finding the true value dhs using the same models that for position players there are several reasons for this difference the main reason that good hitters their prime such frank thomas and danny tartabull are rarely regular even they can field more commonly place put aging veterans another use the slot help player come back from injury slowly getting his bat the lineup without forcing him play the field would expect such players hit worse than they did during the rest the season third factor that most player who split time between and first the outfield don hit well for some reason reggie jackson was good example five years for the angels hit like the old reggie when was right the second and third factors will lost players are considered their primary position only player who plays games right and will count only the right fielders averages logical starting place would look defensive replacement value you can find for something can assume that forced play defense they would play true zero value even though doubt this actually true for players like winfield and molitor this would let discount the time they spend playing because that forces the team find another real fielder play this makes sense you might also look another way although the average offensive performance may lower than for left fielder the replacement level offensive performance certainly lower you are left fielder but can hit well enough keep job anywhere then you certainly can hit well enough keep job david grabiner grabiner zariski harvard edu are sorry but the number you have dialed imaginary please rotate your phone degrees and try again disclaimer speak for one and one speaks for
rec.sport.baseball	bases loaded walk gives reds win article apr cornell edu tedward cornell edu edward ted fischer writes article mssc netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes sigh here again actually several scdn stated that there were definable skills that would make hitter more likely perform better clutch situations non clutch situations however one might choose define clutch right can you define such skill must were say that batting average predictor that can used judge which two hitters more likely get hit particular plate appearance that only valid can define the skill hitting baseball that all said except used the smaller sample batting average clutch situations and elsewhere this thread sherri nichols repeats her position that batting average clutch situations meaningless statistic for predicting the future has been entirely meaningless least has meaning don know how find did not say could predict the future suggested that the statistic not necessarily meaningless here the data for this situation non clutch clutch sabo samuel you were have been the reds manager that time assume you would have had some basis for letting sabo hit rather than pinch hitting samuel sure some that basis would have utilized prior performance you just wouldn have used this particular aspect prior performance this not correct try avoid being insulting but difficult when you cavalierly dismiss hundreds hours work with don pretend understand but nobody denying that there are people who have hit well the clutch the past but challenge you find method predict who will hit well the clutch the future which after all what you are claiming you can since one more time did not claim able predict the future said that accept the above data indication that samuel would have had better chance for success that situation than sabo and not dismissing your work stating opinion you are saying that your work renders any opinion the contrary invalid that the retention that opinion some kind insult your work fine have plenty data obviously our preconceived biases must coloring our work since you know clutch hitting well defined and consistent skill all our failures not withstanding challenge you prove guarantee you that you can prove the existance some form clutch ability you will have plenty happy sdcns dancing around you did not say that clutch hitting well defined said that the data significant did not say that consistent skill have said that indicator performance under certain set circumstances but you aren going win any support merely stating position and claiming they are stupid must right and big sigh have not not not not not not not ever called you anyone else stupid nice however see that you will consider the possibility that you actually could have some preconceived biases yeah hindsight always doesn that make you bright this stupid argument and you know knew could get the name calling and there that word you like much suggestion take data from and attempt come with some method that predicts who hit well the clutch that works can then attempt apply and beyond wait minute thought first had define clutch hitting don you have made strong statements now back them proven total idiot made two statements post not convinced your conclusions regarding clutch hitting would have hit for sabo for many make number written statements through this media about what think will happen baseball not shy about make the statement again believe that season end that chris sabo batting average clutch situations will significantly lower than his batting average non clutch situations can prove that will happen guess just have wait and see here another one for you joe carter batting average clutch situations was significantly below his batting average non clutch situations each year presume you think this random non clutch clutch what could expect from carter well his composite through was through was through was think have pretty good idea what kind batting average can produce hit not surprising huh also non clutch clutch this doesn prove any overall statistical trend that can used predict future performance across the breadth major league ballplayers just makes think that joe carter batting average the clutch not going high his non clutch situations for above have plenty company john dewan stats inc the editor the scouting report wherein the statistics regarding clutch hitting are compiled reported and referenced the text bill james makes numerous references player ability hit well the clutch not saying that can predict the future any more than they are you and others are saying that your work renders their statements and mine meaningless don accept that which your words proves that total idiot stupid total idiot such hostility the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	mea culpa bosio like clinton and reno accept full responsibility for this senseless disaster wife and picked this game and thus caused the return the pre season projected sox offense like all bosio was good lucky hard grounder vaughn off martinez glove but straight boone who threw bosio first and backed good defense many non trivial groundouts the game was amazingly fast the sox tended down quickly and hesketh was also working fast the sox relief pitching was the runs off quantrill were two ridiculous bloops and hard line single which greenwell let get past him trying for catch greenwell mental stability serious concern guess has always been but his quirks were amusing back when was mvp candidate wednesday got huff with johnson after striking out bad inside pitch apparently johnson made got stay focused gesture which iron mike interpreted taunting and struck out heavy booing the next two times valentine noted last night came the first after riles and quintana had walked open the game can you say take the first pitch not mike who dribbled into the quoted bosio that this was batting practice fastball next time also hit the first pitch hard liner straight kgjr center also made the pathetic error and failed catch boone which looked comparable the ball lance johnson caught the highlight reel that night riles suppsoed good defensively couldn tell from the field angle but his range looked bad and coughed that cost run two why was leadoff hope fletcher gets well soon also lineups pinella put bret boone fifth for reasons beyond seemed work was with and some good defense wag behind said sure don want back calgary there theory that you put leadoff type fifth because they likely lead off the second boone did well now face the hot angels and another power pitcher langston reminder that contest entries are open through next wednesday expect surge pessimism the way ties will broken earliest entry one entry per person pseudonym please and easy the pseudonyms dave
rec.sport.baseball	mlb article cvbnetprime com cvalcour ptex prime com sorry missed the posting wrote could some kind soul please email copy mlb thanks chris cvalcour ptex prime com mlb archived the internet baseball archive anoymous ftp eucalyptus swarthmore edu you must use your full email username password baseball schedules filed mlb schedule program for clarity schedules pre generated for east coast times are there text files well and couple teams schedules please send more info you have other teams matt matt wall wall swarthmore edu hey gotta job here april boston red sox seize first place
rec.sport.baseball	nicknaming frank bolick article hydra gatech edu prism gatech edu michael andre mule wrote article inn lynx unm edu kbos carina unm edu mitchell bose writes article zippy telcom arizona edu joplin biosci arizona edu doug roberts writes doug roberts willing trade frank bolick for bag used baseballs let expos one fun note from the rockies home opener think frank bolick nickname should sarge because whenever saw his name denver for the expo series there was big next the spirit chris berman how about frank cerial bolick how about frank jacksonsuck bolick frank cake icing bolick frank not cow but bolick frank how you get ribbon stay birthday present bolick frank burns bolick frank lee bad player bolick frank suck not bolick and matt wall wall swarthmore edu hey gotta job here april boston red sox seize first place
rec.sport.baseball	southpaw article news cso uiuc edu rap uxa cso uiuc edu underdog writes can anyone out there tell why they call left handed pitchers dont know about the story but comes from the fact that most stadiums the batter faces northeast and when pitcher the mound his left arm the south hence the term southpaw also the story how the term originated thanks cubs prediction they will finish over this year without winning the east
rec.sport.baseball	sbs hrs dans fore csd sgi com dan steinman writes last night the giants mets radio broadcast hank and ted were discussing the fact that there were only players who had ever hit homeruns and stolen bases their career while hojo was batting anyone have list not easy sounds come with all them couldn mays mantle aaron henderson morgan bonds dad frank robinson molitor yount guessing now interested see the whole list first please watch your line lengths not everyone has autowrap second franklin the rescue here the list player aaron mays frobinson rjackson winfield dawson baylor bobonds wynn strawberry morgan pinson yount kgibson sandberg players marked with are still active numbers through that only the probably rickey henderson who was listed george brett listed the surprises probably reggie bayor and wynn for steals maybe morgan lot people for homers was kind surprised realize that sandberg has that many steals though wasn surprised that the number was mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com dreams are real while they last can say more life havelock ellis
rec.sport.baseball	winfield spot the all time greats team article wewd kto murdoch acc virginia edu drw delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker writes article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david tate writes winfield can touch frank robinson mel ott far can tell you also have hard time convincing rate him better than equal clemente two sets numbers career equivalent average and equivalent runs ruth aaron ott robinson clemente winfield ruth class himself for both rate eqa and total eqr performance aaron runs over everybody the total category ott and robinson who lead winfield both categories could safely put ahead ahead him reggie too although barely ahead these numbers are normalized for league and park clemente held down some really anemic offensive production his earliest years and was still productive when died reasonably safe assume had runs more could have gotten still jackson waner clemente and winfield form pretty tight knot yes but were talking about peak level not career averages and clemente was the best fielding all time far anyone can tell did quick scan last night looking for players with peak comparable better than winfield quick dirty subjective judgement you could make good cases for ruth aaron ott robinson clemente kaline maris klein jackson waner and probably few others this not knock winfield but comment his consistency all those other players had awesome stretches and very good stretches while winfield has been more uniformly excellent hall fame absolutely top peak not sure top total career value yes almost certainly david tate free agent says will one but mine dtate pitt edu not even should steinbrenner himself try seduce him prof story probs says but what player says owner the big catullus write the wind swift running water
rec.sport.baseball	bosio hitter watched the final inning bosio hitter with several people work after vizquel made that barehanded grab the chopper the middle someone remarked that had fielded with his glove wouldn have had time throw riles out yet the throw beat riles about two steps wonder how many others who watched the final out think vizquel had choice but make the play with his bare hand does anybody think vizquel was wrong field the ball barehanded and failed field cleanly would should have been error hit judging from bosio grimace when the ball bounced past him must have thought would through for hit whether vizquel was right wrong certainly made one hell play phil brown aka csc albany edu
rec.sport.baseball	apology for article article grabiner apr germain harvard edu writes but subject all kinds bias and almost completely useless for first basemen from the raw stats there way tell which first baseman putouts were made throws from other fielders and which were made his own plays likewise you can tell whether double play was fielding runs thus gives first baseman credit for putouts double plays only for assists and errors but ingnoring putouts biased yet another way range not the only thing that makes good firstbaseman the ability field all sorts balls thrown him digging some out the dirt stretching for others and forth important thus putouts provide some information maybe what need comparision how many balls were thrown the area the first baseman how many actually got jim mann stratus computer jmann vineland pubs stratus com
rec.sport.baseball	houston mailing list can anyone mail the address houston mailing list thanks advance scott smithers smithers dcseq uscga edu
rec.sport.baseball	bosox down smoke seattle yea and chris bosio pitched hitter one over the minimum two bases ball the first inning one runner left pitches listened the game radio and listening dave niehaus call the game was real treat long they keep ron fairly quite doubt anyone better than niehaus but that fairly guy really annoying but guess clemens viola had been pitching would have been different story two shutouts two nights against the hottest best hitting team major league baseball pretty impressive any league man johnson bosio and hanson keep going the mariners could really interesting team follow this year also john cummings rookie has had three solid outings with support fleming comes back this may the best starting staff the american league this year relief another story though grimace too cool the first hitter that have been able follow from start end and again think niehaus will win some kind award for the way called the game the guy truly joy listen deserves pennant race kent dietz twins mariners only they were team follow
rec.sport.baseball	giants tickets for sale season ticket holder and have pair giants tickets available for every game except opening day they located lower reserved section row they two rows about feet behind the mvp lower box seats that for apiece selling tickets for pair here the schedule for the next weeks mail you interested note all times are pacific daylight savings time apr new york apr new york apr montreal may montreal may montreal may philadelphia may philadelphia may los angeles may los angeles may los angeles may houston may houston may houston may cincinnati may cincinnati may cincinnati may cincinnati june pittsburgh june pittsburgh june pittsburgh june pittsburgh june louis june louis june chicago june chicago june chicago june san diego june san diego june san diego june colorado june colorado june colorado june colorado craig eid mail address craige hpsad sad com
rec.sport.baseball	professional sports radio curious known there are any professional sports teams whose games are regularly broadcast station the only one aware wysp philadelphia who carries the eagles games you respond will summarize for the list bruce slutsky slutsky tesla njit edu
rec.sport.baseball	are the orioles phillies home mem day wkend subject sez wondering either team are town that weekend can probably get phillies tix the vet can hold bunch and hope they still but late may and camden yards problem there any way getting the park sro ticket any advice there home joe leonard jle world std com please reply directly keep the net down dull roar
rec.sport.baseball	john franco what with john franco the mets are hardly using him heard was completely recovered but now not sure there anybody out there with information about franco would appreciate you could drop line jason lee jplee oboe calpoly edu jlee cash busfac calpoly edu giants the most beautiful equation mathematics magic for all sad words tongue and pen the saddest are these number might have been john greenleaf whittier
rec.sport.baseball	braves offense article apr news acns nwu edu rsavage casbah acns nwu edu michael bornhorst writes been braves fan for long been watching baseball almost years now say that just preface what about post this braves team made slow starters people are amazed that the braves aren hitting don they weren hitting last year this time nor were they the year before they had slow aprils and mays the and seasons and yet they still managed the series those years well this team different why should suprised their slow start they started that way for the past two years and they that way until the richmond club makes the majors judge their offense june july when things start average out just happy that the reds have gotten off such poor start the giants always well the early part the season but they out the race july just like the last few years unless bond developes knuckelball their staff will get rocked mid june wow you really know how hurt guy guess shouldn bother watching any more games already been decided luigi randy palermo luigi csd sgi com fax silicon graphics computer systems shoreline blvd view play accordion jail that the law
rec.sport.baseball	bases loaded walk gives reds win article xwai news cso uiuc edu hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu harold brooks writes article mssc netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes don pretend understand statistical analysis well agree the last part cool and thank you for intelligent response devoid the silly name calling others one the basic things you need have statistic able predict player performance the future for there correlation from year year player batting average correlated fairly well from year year the basic problems with something like clutch batting average overall batting average that the correlation from year year almost zero adding the sample size doesn seem help much actually think the large scale sample size part the problem seems that were plot all the players baseball regard clutch deviation would get some kind bell curve the axis being the deviation clutch hitting non clutch the axis being the number players certainly there would some players the extreme ends the bell supposition that were find the same players consistently year after year one end the bell the other then might able make some reasonable conclusions about those players opposed all baseball players counterexample what you showed consider the following two players from non clutch clutch maldonado lemon you had had these two players your logic those clutch situations you bat maldonado for lemon blink eye well maldonado hit non clutch and clutch while lemon hit non clutch and clutch before you accuse completely cooking the data you won hear those kind accusations from interesting that you selected maldonado because someone whom have also looked has been very inconsistent hitter terms hitting admittedly has been traded between leagues well clubs his clutch hitting record equally inconsistent for purposes would not draw any conclusions about his ability hit the clutch based his prior performance don know how would have felt but you may indeed right when looked sabo found more consistent record hitting and more consistent pattern his clutch hitting being proportionately below his non clutch ditto for joe carter this probably brings the heart the disagreement having with others this topic must any conclusion based statistical history able applied broadly throughout data base before has any validity impossible irrational apply statistical analysis selected components the data base btw correlating players overall batting average from with gives correlation coefficient which significant something better than the confidence level correlating their clutch non clutch for the same period gives correlation significant level any interest completely accept that reasoning again what were find the same individuals each end the spectrum consistent basis actually technically incorrect say that can predict future clutch performance more correct say that can predict future clutch performance with any skill amen the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	professional sports radio article apr tesla njit edu slutsky tesla njit edu writes curious known there are any professional sports teams whose games are regularly broadcast station the only one aware wysp philadelphia who carries the eagles games you respond will summarize for the list wip the real home the eagles merril reese and the birds radio what joke classic rock station that whats the sports world coming when think good signature will right about here until then this stupid message will have phillies
rec.sport.baseball	bases loaded walk gives reds win article mssc netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes article apr cornell edu tedward cornell edu edward ted fischer writes sigh here again you started for predicting the future has been entirely meaningless least has meaning don know how find did not say could predict the future you most certainly did non clutch clutch sabo samuel sabo clearly better hitter than samuel yet you would pinch hit samuel because you predict that samuel will clutch hitter and sabo will choke hitter right call that predicting the future you were have been the reds manager that time assume you would have had some basis for letting sabo hit rather than pinch hitting samuel sure some that basis would have utilized prior performance you just wouldn have used this particular aspect prior performance this not correct right would have used aspects prior performance which have been shown consistent the past overall performance splits even matching hitting pitching styles all these will give some advantage used properly even all else were equal there would advantage gained looking past clutch performance and this case everything else pointed sabo one more time did not claim able predict the future said that accept the above data indication that samuel would have had better chance for success that situation than sabo that comes down the same thing when perez left sabo was predicting the future the next was predicting that sabo was more likely get hit than samuel supporting the swap you are predicting the opposite and not dismissing your work stating opinion you are saying that your work renders any opinion the contrary invalid that the retention that opinion some kind insult your work well yes you are aware its existance you claim incapable understanding though suspect you are simply unwilling yet you rather forcefully state the opposite you don seem think the work worth reading yet you obviously feel the topic important say this insulting did not say that consistent skill have said that indicator performance under certain set circumstances right this the beef has not proven indicator future performance under any circumstances least none that been able come with you know some where indicator future performance please let your secret nice however see that you will consider the possibility that you actually could have some preconceived biases most certainly have repeatedly stated you can come with study which even hints consistent clutch ability would love however the straightforward attempts such study have all failed miserably yeah hindsight always doesn that make you bright this stupid argument and you know knew could get the name calling and there that word you like much well was stupid argument are you honestly debating that sure know sabo didn get hit have idea whether samuel would have done any better not one most certainly doesn prove anything believe that season end that chris sabo batting average clutch situations will significantly lower than his batting average non clutch situations can prove that will happen guess just have wait and see this simply prediction for chris sabo for this year this prediction for all batters who have over the past few years hit xxx amount worse the clutch than overall you mean the first then you say just have wait and see but the second much stronger statement fact suggests rule can then test this rule past data see worked for recent years think you will agree that the rule didn work last year the year before that unlikely any better this year right here another one for you joe carter batting average clutch situations was significantly below his batting average non clutch situations each year presume you think this random not going get into case analysis sure you can find somebody who hit poorly from and then hit poorly well you can also find those who hit poorly from and then hit well this doesn prove any overall statistical trend that can used predict future performance across the breadth major league ballplayers just makes think that joe carter batting average the clutch not going high his non clutch situations gambler fallacy unless there reason expect consistency run proves nothing can you give reason expect clutch correlate from one year the next seen detailed study why shouldn expect correlate stupid total idiot such hostility the stupid was reference statement which was stupid and don see how you can deny for total idiot yes you prove yourself unwilling even consider evidence that might suggest that you are wrong would say the term fits nicely tell does the term fit you have open mind valentine
rec.sport.baseball	seattle was stats and standings article rctinn senator bedfellow mit edu cmk athena mit edu charles kozierok writes article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione writes griffey well most are intentional walks are you sure about this say pitching around him more likely yeah maybe that more likely but from the mariners tigers series seems like every time there are base runners the pitchers seem purposely pitch around him give him free pass the funny thing was that griffey was struggling until the last game the four game series remember correctly chung yang cheers charles
rec.sport.baseball	good hands was apology for article article eskimo com stevet eskimo com steven thornton writes stuff deleted mattingly scores badly both counts doesn get very many balls and lets lot balls through the fact that looks smooth has great hands and makes few errors means nothing this traditional brainless reliance observations that can easily misled like lot bad fielders mattingly actually makes himself look better not having any range nowhere near bad steve garvey but that not much compliment agree with the flavor this post but disagree with one specific argument that has great hands means nothing seems that first baseman defensive value not entirely even primarily from his ability field grounders catch popups how many such chances does get during game many fewer than gets chances catch throws from and mean the total these much higher than grounder popup totals this implies that there value catching these throws well even they are high the line the dirt good hands are needed for such plays and thus have value don have any numbers for the relative number occurences these plays but guess that the values these abilities are similar just like you don judge catcher defense primarily how they field bunts and popups but not marked suppose michael
rec.sport.baseball	yanks over george speaks how about matt nokes run single against ron darling was that hit what while watching the game yesterday they flashed something regarding the boss talking about mark connor bullpen coach said something like mark connor fault that the bullpen horrible here again george sticking his non baseball nose the baseball business shut george just spend the money get the players and leave buck and the coaches and players alone
rec.sport.baseball	john wetteland derek lilliquist info please was wondering anyone knew john wetteland was put the again after his first day period was read the usa today sports section that for surgery repair broken toe and was wondering that was new thought was just letting heal today usa today john wetteland should come off the tonight and possibly pitch the series this weekend forget who they play another question derek lilliquist the main closer for the indians now that olin gone need know cause need find reliever replace wetteland and far lilliquist doing any information either the players would greatly appreciated thank you for your time derek lilliquist probably going the main closer but will kind bullpen committee also charles james you don care where you going lehigh university then you ain lost cej lehigh edu anonymous person csc
rec.sport.baseball	old predictions laugh article wilbanks spot colorado edu wilbanks spot colorado edu kokopeli writes prediction the red sox cubs series and vikings broncos superbore will occur the end the world which one will officially the end the world can see the end the now well folks here bottom the ninth bases loaded full count sandberg this game clemens winds heres the pitch swung and line drive center zupcic moves his left there and zot joec godot cyprs rain com warning elvis impersonating can hazardous joec ursula pdx edu your health sure won help your reputation bike therefore red sox celtics seahawks sonics
rec.sport.baseball	kevin mitchell does again what seems classic mitchell move drops fly ball and injures his hamstring the same play haven heard anything how serious the leg paul who bitter about mitchell performance seattle nah will stretch farm animal beyond its natural length paula koufax com paul andresen hewlett packard home mckinley corvallis sabr member since
rec.sport.baseball	professional sports radio article gpw news udel edu philly ravel udel edu robert hite writes article apr tesla njit edu slutsky tesla njit edu writes curious known there are any professional sports teams whose games are regularly broadcast station the only one aware wysp philadelphia who carries the eagles games you respond will summarize for the list wip the real home the eagles merril reese and the birds radio what joke least can hear the joke more than yards outside city limits now will wip ever strngthen their signal ken
rec.sport.baseball	skydome tix schedule flexible any games are candidates though prefer see texas tony think that might able help you out the rangers are here toronto thursday july through sunday july and tickets should not hard find you order them far enough advance although don have ticket broker telephone number off hand you give couple days will able get hold couple the blue jays ticket info you want order credit card call you let know when you want the tickets can save you possible long distance call all else fails might able pull few strings and get you pair let know whats happening drew carley toronto canada deluxe away shall taunt you second time canada remote systems toronto ontario
rec.sport.baseball	the braves will come around all the braves doubters don worry the bats will come alive and the braves will come around the pitching solid and long the braves don have serious injuries the starting rotation they continue pitch well heck with the five starters the braves rotation they could even sustain injury one the five hope this doesn happen though the bats are there pendleton will certainly bat over justice catching fire bream nixon sanders gant well there too much offense there kept quiet for much longer right now the cleveland indians have players batting over but certainly wouldn their seven for our respective seven though wouldn the braves something right now with their pitching and players batting over the bullpen well suspect but when the bats come alive the guys the bullpen will less concern anyway believe the braves will tough beat this season not saying the braves have automatically won the division but optim istic about their season though awful painful watch them times right now braves dean
rec.sport.baseball	game length was braves update sent version this post out while ago but was swallowed the void apologies anyone ends receiving sherri nichols writes article apr vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes just don happen think that the minutes added the length games over the last years has added anything interesting how would you quantify that suppose easy way would look attendance figures anyone got the numbers attendance figures aren going quantify anything about personal opinion which the above clearly stated add the end sentence you confused about what meant wasn confused understood that was your personal opinion but thought were discussing the need shorten games the arguments which declare this need seem hinge the assertion that long games bore people and otherwise discourage them from going the ballpark like see the increased length games has negatively affected attendance has then there problem and something should done about hasn then there isn problem and there need monkey with things they are heather hhenderson vax clarku edu
rec.sport.baseball	reason for giants june swoon giants off fast start article apr bnlux bnl gov kyee bnlux bnl gov kenton yee writes article nxm psuvm psu edu nxm psuvm psu edu writes the giants have won their last games behind some solid pitching excluding that win against atlanta they can stay around first place after say the first games think they got legitimate chance winning the pennant and maybe even more than that don you remember that the giants were place late june last year then their pitching collapsed their problem they have optimistically only good starting pitchers swift brantly and the bowler can remember his name the other starters are extremely unreliable and often get blasted before innings that means the already shallow bullpen gets over worked this means after few months the bullpen collapses and their post all star record tends much worst than their pre all star record the bowler john burkett who went last night bargain pickup roto team got him minimum just thought does someone have the won lost pre post allstar records for the giants the last few seasons bet their records tends worst and worst the season goes this not really true excluding last season the giants has been better half team they had hot august pull within few games the braves and dodgers before fading september the giants may back earth but not fast last season for two reasons barry bonds roger craig longer the manager dusty can manage his pitching staffs much better than craig edward hui
rec.sport.baseball	bases loaded walk gives reds win article mssc netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes actually think the large scale sample size part the problem seems that were plot all the players baseball regard clutch deviation would get some kind bell curve the axis being the deviation clutch hitting non clutch the axis being the number players certainly there would some players the extreme ends the bell right most definitely supposition that were find the same players consistently year after year one end the bell the other then might able make some reasonable conclusions about those players opposed all baseball players this may the root the confusion please consider the following hypothetical with open mind note that not yet saying that has anything with the question hand suppose have simplified lotto game you pick number from and win that number drawn suppose have large population people who play this game every week the first year the game approximately the population will win more times the second year the game those time winners will again time winners the third year the game those who won more times each the first two years will win again suppose started with people population after three years have people who have consistently each the last three years won more the number times expected expect them big winners the fourth year the game because know there skill involved nothing about these consistent winners can influence their chances winning but suppose don know whether not there chance that skill might involved perhaps some the people our population are psychic something how would test this hypothesis can look for correlations the population now most the population will show zero correlation but our psychics should show high positive correlation even they aren very good psychics they should still manage win more times most years net result small positive correlation over the entire population this probably brings the heart the disagreement having with others this topic must any conclusion based statistical history able applied broadly throughout data base before has any validity impossible irrational apply statistical analysis selected components the data base well zero correlation zero correlation you mention that sabo has hit poorly the clutch over the last years but look the past find that clutch patterns are just likely reverse they are remain consistent the length the streak doesn seem make difference the probability that the player will clutch choke the next year there any reason expect this streak different from past streaks now were true that all three year streaks remained true form then might have something useful but then wouldn have zero correlation instead have all three year streaks remain true form and all three year streaks reverse you look those numbers and say three year choke streak implies more likely choke this year but would equally valid look those numbers and say three year choke streak implies more likely clutch this year since the probabilities are split each way completely accept that reasoning again what were find the same individuals each end the spectrum consistent basis then would have something useful and would also have positive correlation but for every individual that exhibits such pattern and holds true there another who exhibits such pattern and then reverses cheers valentine
rec.sport.baseball	teams organisms stats stats was jack morris note not posting this part argument with roger meynard but independent sort thread actually quote some things that roger meynard wrote but might better think this sampling his post the hip hop sense because fits with what want say maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes but the point that the only decision making pro cess used determine the best the score the game and lates the teams not the individual players there method inherent baseball comparing individual performances and that how should because after all baseball team game there interesting parallel between this way viewing baseball team and some people conception biological organism the biology context would very likely read fitness for the score the game and organisms for teams how interpret players trickier but either organs genes might seem reasonable choices depending what point were trying make genes interpretation actually might really interesting this case but that would different and probably longer post however take the organ view then our knowledge biology should make pause before start saying things like species more fit than species because better organ given what know about the interdependence organs would often suspicious such claims but note that this type argument quite often made when you map species onto humans and organ onto brain the other hand some statements this kind seem more reasonable than others far can test them brain above might more reasonable than pancreas assuming gross pathology particularly species primate even when you make such statements you should concerned with the functioning the whole organism and the possibility that one organ might more crucial for one species and second organ another not mention the possibility that organ particularly crucial some third species however are non vitalists with any kind reductionsit streak will want say that organism not some completely magical unanalyzable whole but intriguing process made various subprocesses that interact ways that are potentially observable some these processes might localized particular organs while others may distributed across multiple organs way this just like baseball team except that think pretty clear that the processes and interactions involved baseball are much simpler and less numerous than most organisms say that one player better than another able say solutely that player team would have played better with player their lineup sheer speculation impossible ascertain one thing that quite difficult about baseball that perfectly controlled experiments are sometimes very tough but course this has never stopped researchers from doing the best they can and sometimes deriving very powerful conclusions even the absence certainty most this goes far beyond sheer speculation but even sheer speculation can motivate further interesting research you want select group statistics and claim that clemens has done better than another pitcher with those statistics criteria then fine this cases seeing the word statistics means summary observed events where the events themselves can viewed the output some process and possibly inputs for other processes thus have any valid notion how the processes are put together into the functioning organism data the form statistics might give basis test particular hypotheses but you have able prove that those statistics measure the individual contribution winning the because that the only measure best that has any meaning the context baseball this statement brings back the concept fitness again fitness defined terms both organism and its environment you might fit one situation and not another moving baseball clear that each team spends the entire season environment including all the other teams the league least nominal sense the division winners are the fittest teams the league that they average had better fitness scores than any their competing opponennts but real sense there fairly large random component the performance each team that difficult not impossible account for terms factors intrinsic interesting for baseball the same true biology but here also direct biological equivalent the world series basebal the world series the random component may greatly magnified the small number games that are played and both teams suddenly experience huge changes from the environement where they were originally successful might fun watch but unclear what all really means now just one more related point have yet see that any you can predict winner with any greater accuracy than jeanne dixon the other hand you have seen some who can predict the outcome the divisional races better than random assignment teams finishes and maybe some who can this better than the other participants this forum regular basis but this probably only due the fact that game schedule gives you little hope that bad hops aren the only difference between the winners and the losers moreover you had the opportunity see some analysis the world series situation that makes the strong claim that nobody can predict the winner with reliably greater accuracy than coin biased only reflect the well known home road effect winning percentage the stats are nice hobby and that about there new knowledge being produced since stats are summaries events true that you know the events you can derive the stats but somebody trying understand the process behind the stats then the stats produce new knowledge and some this might even reliable repeatable and useful speaking which should get back producing knowledge different field that course can produce knowledge even though relying stats jking
rec.sport.baseball	twins update article apr sctc com macomber sctc com chuck macomber writes twins update posted april jim deshaies continues the surprise not only the twins but the american league well going into today game deshaies was with era deshaies allowed earned runs innings meaning his era will climb slightly deshaies who came via trade with philadelphia which sent david west there continues make andy macphail look like true genius minor correction hartley came the west trade phily deshaies signed free agent over years pitched for san diego last year regards maynard brandt cray research inc
rec.sport.baseball	bosio hitter csc albany edu brown philip writes watched the final inning bosio hitter with several people work after vizquel made that barehanded grab the chopper the middle someone remarked that had fielded with his glove wouldn have had time throw riles out yet the throw beat riles about two steps wonder how many others who watched the final out think vizquel had choice but make the play with his bare hand this morning paper was the radio vizquel was quoted saying that could have fielded the ball with his glove and still easily thrown out riles that barehanded instead make the final play more memorable seems litle cocky but made work entitled doug dudgeon dept chemical engineering dudgeon opus cheme washington edu university washington seattle this space available
rec.sport.baseball	bases loaded walk gives reds win redreport article grabiner apr germain harvard edu grabiner math harvard edu david grabiner writes article mssc netcom com mark singer writes based only this data don see any reason pinch hit for sabo any other player who had been poor clutch hitter the past but there are many other factors involved decision pinch hit does the pinch hitter give you platoon advantage any portion sabo clutch split that results from his platoon split certainly real ability even has nothing with clutch hitting you have singles hitter the plate when you need home run you have curveball pitcher facing batter who has trouble with curves hey what this agree platoon advantage sabo samuel both players have reputation being excellent fastball hitters and both have reputation being fooled too often with slow curves and change ups sabo has more power and little bit better batting eye samuel noted agressive free swinger sabo has more homerun power both players started the game hitting below there may have been some game considerations that might have prompted perez want reserve samuel for use later but the game was the line and samuel never did get given all this don see lot suggest pinch hitting nor see anything suggest pinch hitting there course the clutch hitting information but that useless then again not david grabiner grabiner zariski harvard edu are sorry but the number you have dialed imaginary please rotate your phone degrees and try again disclaimer speak for one and one speaks for mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	some baseball trivia who holds the record for most career strikeouts while playing for one team who holds the record for most career strikeouts for the rangers hint nolan ryan isn either what two pitchers have over career saves for two different teams who the only player hit more career home runs and steal more career bases for the same team fair peeking your baseball stats phil allen texdude bradley edu
rec.sport.baseball	yankee thoughts article mjones fenway mjones fenway aix kingston ibm com mike jones writes scott asd com scott barman writes article apr clam com sam steamer clam com sam mandelbaum writes wade boggs live boston and like wade lot but his career winding down and would rather see the yanks start develop long term solution hensley muelins russ davis velarde besides wade just doesn have any range what shame about charlie hayes huh who would you have playing wade boggs charlie hayes choice boggs contest will give them time develop younger talent area the yankee farm system seems deficient hem two words russell davis playing the cavern albany last year down the alleys and center davis went with homers there aren any small parks the road the eastern league either and his mle was have fielding statistics but from seeing him number times last year say that not brooks robinson but neither howard johnson unless they think they can win the pennant this year which seems possible and need boggs think they making the same sort mistake with davis that boston made with boggs leaving him the minors for two three years after shown that was good hitter spike owen see wade boggs much rather see them develop dave silvestri whoever wade and spike next each other the infield going raise the yankee staff era point and these guys are the down sides their careers too bad they gave randy valarde too many trips the columbus shuttle hrm they still have him the roster through the first two weeks they just never figured out what with him suspect that hits enough especially lefties reasonable shortstop one rumor running around during spring training was that they wanted convert silvestri catcher because his body type was wrong for shortstop you think that somebody the same division who plays baltimore about dozen times year would know better mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com one our guys went down just doubled confusion there didn require rhodes scholar two teammates went down four yours would had protect guys don drysdale regard boggs relate story about yankee fan fenway last year for opening day was there see them face baltimore and couldn help but listen the boston fans talk about various players the team one guy was totally obliterating boggs how sucks etc told him was yankee fan and take him second and who would want trade back said pile know boggs had some personal problems while playing for boston but come future hall famer who really adds needed dimension the yanks solid hitter decent fielder and more importantly teacher ask pat kelly think got few good years left his bat and may key contributor down the stretch they win the american league east this year boston fans have class they probably boo him like crazy his first time back pinstripes and hope goes for and shuts them
rec.sport.baseball	bosox down smoke seattle dietz parody data com kent dietz writes yea and chris bosio pitched hitter one over the minimum two have there ever been any other hitters mariner history john franjione department chemical engineering university colorado boulder franjion spot colorado edu
rec.sport.baseball	juggling dodgers article coinnhg gap caltech edu jeff smoggy caltech edu jeff goldsmith writes mssc netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes this true note that don think lasorda should fired for least two reasons publicly humiliating his players knuckling under his players wishes did not write that fact those statements were rebuttal earlier posting that made and this was culled from strong rebuttal those statements please slander shame there fine line between getting players input and knuckling under players demands manager much like military officer needs have his her players complete obedience and respect during game after the game big deal but when there time more than react players must trust the manager the team often falls apart see boston red sox after the game big deal after the employees leave the workplace doesn matter what they say about the boss the company puhlease strawberry demeanor represented the media often sounds like demands suspect that comment like enjoy hitting fourth used would get pretty brutally misinterpreted the media came from strawberry russ porter quoted strawberry saying feel more comfortable hitting cleanup and think perform best that role paraphrased memory and bias that seems like fairly non petulant answer what was almost certainly question like how you feel about being moved the third spot the order first ross porter second really tired seeing the kind response that indicates that all parrot what some media person says writes have brain choose characterize something certain fashion because that what believe accurate not just because some unnamed mediot made the characterization more media sensitive player might answer the manager knows what doing thinks that batting third will help the team then all for ignore that answer brown stuff seems little bit overreaction brand darryl response petulant did not brand darryl response petulant because never heard any response from darryl did call him name referred him primadonna someone else concluded that did that because hate him don hate him think primadonna you disagree fine but stop putting words mouth the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	strike zone width was jose canseco article atlas nafb trw com mspede atlas nafb trw com writes well just studying tape frame frame that all the biggest thing that you notice however how bastardized the strike zone has become death the umpires union the plate across not call the high strikes strikes and quit calling pitches outside strikes they balls speaking this wide strike zone sure like see cameras placed each major league park such that overview shot home plate available cbs had this during the did just dream then again players managers must not too upset with the current wide strike zone mark pede wait minute read the rules right stike any portion the ball over any portion the plate given that the ball diameter this sez that the zone width while this still less than the number given can forgive any ump for misjudging object moving miles per hour many times not straight line think the umpires union has great grasp the rules david edwards
rec.sport.baseball	bases loaded walk gives reds win article mssc netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes article xwai news cso uiuc edu hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu harold brooks writes article mssc netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes actually think the large scale sample size part the problem seems that were plot all the players baseball regard clutch deviation would get some kind bell curve the axis being the deviation clutch hitting non clutch the axis being the number players certainly there would some players the extreme ends the bell supposition that were find the same players consistently year after year one end the bell the other then might able make some reasonable conclusions about those players opposed all baseball players let careful here players performance was completely random clutch clutch then you would still expect some players good the clutch every year and some not good every year with two years worth data you have the players good each year bad each year and would have one good and one bad year have players for years just flipping coin you expect players good all years and bad every year this what actually get good years clutch performers coin flip random essentially the distribution clutch performers number years good performance the same what you would get the process leading deviations from non clutch performance was completely random there was anything clutch hitting least this definition that had any predictive capability you expect see the number players the ends much larger than that predicted flipping coin further you limit yourself players who were lot above below average clutch situations say standard deviation from the mean more than one year the random explanation still looks good the four years that looked the data from elias there were players with minimum bats clutch situations that were sigma from the mean two different years those players them changed sign between the two years other words they were great clutch hitters one year and really horrible the other year was just random process you expect those numbers everything that been measured about clutch hitting over period years that could used predict any ability with any proposed definition has looked like random process with the caveat that there may something related platoon advantage that could dragged out the data john lowenstein probably never had clutch against left handed pitcher but might well have had some blowouts that there would bias since his clutch abs would more geared his platoon advantage this not subject that has been glanced casually lot people have put lot effort into studying and every one them with the exception the elias study has been unable find anything that would allow you predict how someone will clutch situations better than flipping coin self serving plug follows some the flaws the elias study are discussed paper the forth coming sabr book the perfect game taylor publishing the authors are supposed get slice the advance bug your local bookstores now and maybe can get enough take wife dinner once harold harold brooks hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu national severe storms laboratory norman used work for brewery too but didn drink the job bavasi dal maxvill view that florida can win the east
rec.sport.baseball	camden yards article apr uvm edu luh med uvm edu eddy luh writes anyone know how can get some tickets see the birds camden yards more specifically anyone have confidence any particular ticket agencies the new england new york area that will fair about prices tickets are very hard get even the box office camden yards you really want see game here school baltimore price should not issue tickets but you should willing high you really want come men crazy andrew kamholz something dark and sticky congregations but all the time getting strong they only get better sting way dealing with this feeling one one peter gabriel can like this too long
rec.sport.baseball	why barry bonds not batting timothy cree timothy lamar colostate edu wrote article apr hpcvaac com paula koufax com paul andresen writes article apr leland stanford edu punjabi leland stanford edu sanjeev punjabi writes having bonds batting behind williams means that matt will get more good pitches hit this important since struggles much with breaking balls opposing pitchers don want walk williams get bonds have wonder this good hitter behind you argument really valid has anyone done study this you want study look matt williams the year after mitchell was gone look further not scientific study but show the truth for matt besides bonds wants bat had thought that williams batted after mitchell wouldn that show that williams does better rather than the point moot though becase clark pretty much demands and like you point out bonds does like bat the only person left bat williams mike west west esd nec com
rec.sport.baseball	how does pitcher get save article apr newshub ariel yorku ariel yorku geoffrey dias writes the subject line says all what the rule that qualifies pitcher making save imho this the most untrustworthy silly stat today rules all baseball understanding qualify save pitcher cannot pitch more than three innings and the potential tying run must least appear the deck circle also the lead pitcher enters with cannot excede three runs believe that the official scorers must assert more their authority determining winners savers etc for instance pitcher can come the ninth with lead blow the lead fall behind have his team come back the next half inning and earn the win has this pitcher earned win way guy could pitch five strong innings middle relief and see his teammates rally tie the score assume came start the fourth and left after the eighth his teammate holds the opposition scoreless the ninth and they score run the bottom the ninth win the third pitcher earns the win and the middle reliever gets stat satisfaction mike bleed the blue dodgers and even like lasorda spaghetti sauce
rec.sport.baseball	white and black racism was about the phillies article apr princeton edu niepornt phoenix princeton edu david marc nieporent writes article psilink com dennis parslow psilink com writes beat dead horse seem remember fair amount sympathy for some black fringe player named roberto clemente and for roy campanella and for thurman munson and for just about anyone else who may not even have liked players but mourned for dying too young wiggins alan believe was well out baseball the time died but that besides the point sure people would feel slightly sympathetic for rickey were killed but they would also criticizing him lot more for his actions example how about jose canseco gets couple speeding tickets and all the sudden his attitude awful what the hell speeding tickets have with clubhouse influence anyway why sportswriters talk about all the time also has been charged with chasing his wife car and smashing into tree well carrying loaded firearm his car and the speeding reported was over mph reckless driving brian hunter and keith mitchell both whom had dwi problems towards the end last year two years ago was cited sign their immaturity etc actually hadn heard about this thanks meanwhile dykstra almost killed both himself and daulton and didn read any sportswriter complaining about that they may have talked about how bad was for the phillies but never read anywhere criticism dykstra character daulton intelligence for that matter based this incident don know what you were reading watching but sure saw lot about that and about dykstra poker games most the writing was along the lines how incredibly stupid and selfish was and how hurt the team wracking himself and the catcher etc espn raised questions about his judgement etc the print media here the area questioned why disciplinary action wouldn taken against dykstra and one article pointed out that lenny wanted kill himself there were ways that wouldn endanger other people lives then there was dykstra himself being quoted how stupid was etc mike disclaimer these opiini damn exit quitbye ctrlaltdel logout save quit quit zzzzzz man help helpquit man help help exit quit ctrlshftdel hey what does stop
rec.sport.baseball	bosio hits red soxs swhitfield gallua gallaudet edu writes chris bosio seattle pitcher just hit the red sox this the second hitter seattle history randy johnson got the first also this was bosio first career hitter this mlb first hitter this year trivia time all know that dave batting average down the valle caught chris bosio hitter last night and batting over btw here the question who caught randy johnson hitter june hint not dave valle the mad kobold douglas todd norris henson wwu edu depeche mode they might giants inxs the police exercise your basic rights could build building site from the bricks shame built the hope depeche mode you want van canucks sea supersonics sea mariners sea seahawks rnd congratulations chris bosio mariners his hitter boston
rec.sport.baseball	bonilla article apr princeton edu roger astro princeton edu roger lustig writes when say black mean born black people for the purposes this discussion hispanic players were baseball before and one team the signed lots hispanics because they went over better with the local audience than blacks did what about black hispanics and why would more hispanics stick around than blacks don know but remember this the country that had special racial laws for one group and one group only blacks our national history man you had better some serious reading really really doubt that you meant say this mike disclaimer these opiini damn exit quitbye ctrlaltdel logout save quit quit zzzzzz man help helpquit man help help exit quit ctrlshftdel hey what does stop
rec.sport.baseball	info snow sure all you have heard the extraordiary start rookie snow the california angeles other than the fact that his father was star receiver with the rams and now radio personality los angeles and came from the yankees organization don know much about anyone has info and background the young fenom please post the way for those you not following his exploits has hit four home runs three days two last night has also delivered the winning hit couple times for the angeles this young season thanks michael from usc
rec.sport.baseball	how speed games marginally realistic article zola esd sgi com archer elysium esd sgi com archer bad cop surly writes nll ahc udcps cps udayton edu mbohler udcps cps udayton edu michael bohler writes really speed the game umps need start calling strikes the way they used talking about making the strike zone start the knees and the top the letters forget this the strike zone the general area the groin lot less and counts and quicker game they tried that the and people stopped coming the ballparks droves offense suffered immensely they lowered the mound first before the season the shrinkage the strike zone didn start until the mid scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let mets
rec.sport.baseball	winfield spot the all time greats team article wewd kto murdoch acc virginia edu drw delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker writes thanks for the numbers they portray true image many ways accept them the first ones and the second winfield really only around
rec.sport.baseball	all time best players article apr tesla njit edu drm tesla njit edu writes overall career don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly wanna game sometime jesus christ boy have you not heard the real all time best steve balboni now that yankee pride
rec.sport.baseball	the all time greats team article apr iscsvax uni edu reed iscsvax uni edu writes article apr alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes article apr iscsvax uni edu reed iscsvax uni edu writes uhhhhh winfield has carrer slugging average career peak during winfield peak his slugging average was average points above the league average mel ott hank aaron and frank robinson their worst years their peak they are still better than winfield his best peak year winfield best above the average ott worst above the average and robinson worst above the league average career slugging big deal many right fielders including darryl strawberry and andre dawson can easliy surpass this for career slugging average unless there are some real stats that make winfield worthy the team won even allowed water boy eddie gaedel the water boy and his career base percentage tons better than winfield check your facts andre dawson career slugging pct the winny would like see your facts winny has probably done better than points above with carrer slg check more important stats defense and heart batting average rbi peak and career especially career winny ranks the top outfielders all time you are using make your standings and would like know where you are getting your numbers from
rec.sport.baseball	all time peak players article apr princeton edu roger crux princeton edu roger lustig writes article apr alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes article dln oqm transfer stratus com jmann vineland pubs stratus com jim mann writes article apr alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes very interesting gehrig below bonds and schmidt ricky henderson could steal bases but his hitting stats are not even close dimmagio uhhhh where winfield henderson stat are probably closer dimaggio than you think then give numbers man winfield could whip henderson butt what basestealing not henderson all time leader and good for about runs worth lifetime winfield about behind and has net runs base average winfield best year was nine points below henderson lifetime oba lifetime the diff points slugging winfield points they both good ofs though winfield looks better with his huge bod winfield best year henderson iii gives henderson total player rating winfield they have rickey much better fielder which don buy but henderson simply the best leadoff hitter all time and winfield isn the best anything all time henderson the best leadoff hitter all time arguably winfield has meant more his team than henderson unlike daryll henderson tries hard amazing centerfielder rickey very good maybe better than winfield was angry the dissing winfield though winfield has been better than henderson lately check the numbers winfield may surprise you will have basehits and should have homeruns when retires wishful thiniking plays
rec.sport.baseball	best first basemen article apr lehigh edu lehigh edu chris hartzell writes article apr tesla njit edu drm tesla njit edu writes don mattingly the best first baseman the history baseball always has been always will don good but was keith hernandez just heard don talk about how learned how good fielder talking and watching keith play snow
rec.sport.baseball	all time peak players article jpk ucdavis edu dale ucdavis edu gary built like villanueva huckabay writes michael lurie the liberalizer writes henderson stat are probably closer dimaggio than you think then give numbers man winfield could whip henderson butt well you absolutely completely dead wrong but thanks for playing soon get office happy post rickey and dave career lines both are very fine players but henderson has consistently been better for rickey slacking due his contract problems this year any comments considering basically picked the entire team and put them his back think deserves little slack and think deserves year extension per year quickly was upset people dissing winfield henderson the better player winfield can come close though lets see what rickey does for the rest his career people forget how good winny was the and also how great rickey was
rec.sport.baseball	sbs hrs article hqc odin corp sgi com dans fore csd sgi com dan steinman writes last night the giants mets radio broadcast hank and ted were discussing the fact that there were only players who had ever hit homeruns and stolen bases their career while hojo was batting anyone have list not easy sounds come with all them couldn mays mantle aaron henderson morgan bonds dad frank robinson molitor yount guessing now interested see the whole list thanks dan think winfield
rec.sport.baseball	triva question bosio hitter don actually have the answer this one bosio after walking the first two batters retired straight for back end perfect game how many other games including extra inning games have seen pitcher retire straight excluding official perfect games the only other instance this know about for sure the famous ernie shore game which counts perfect one according those goons cooperstown shore came into the game when boston pitcher babe ruth got thrown out for arguing over the first batter walk shore picked him off and retired straight after that matt wall wall swarthmore edu hey gotta job here april boston red sox seize first place
rec.sport.baseball	mattingly just add this vein consider that range first baseman not the only important thing imo the best fielder bad throws from the other infielders have seen him scoop balls out the dirt catch balls off large bounce take down balls over his head wide etc infinitum and gets the out much the time some the things does save his infielders errors are amazing you have give mattingly credit for being able all that while keeping his foot near the bag yes sure gets few calls because mattingly keith keller let rangers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs this corner let quakers weighing almost every weight imaginable life and all that surrounds blues traveler
rec.sport.baseball	bob vesterman plan generate fan interest article interlan com tonyf interlan com tony fernandez writes the marlins tried something like this and was complete failure opening day instead having inning stretch with the singing take out the ballgame they had some young women the field lead the crowd into doing aerobics while the was playing gloria estefan get your feet the fans actually booed and started singing take out their own actually kind felt sorry for the girls are you kidding stuck with the toronto skydome where their idea inning stretch that blue jays song where everyone gets yell okay okay blue jays blue jays let play ball wow what genius did take compose that one outshine the old classic and there are women the field lead the crowd then again this the same crowd who more entertained the grounds crew and the word ground used loosely than the outstanding plays the opponents fielders
rec.sport.baseball	yakult swallows japanese pro baseball team anyone have any idea how get japanese league stats regularly the matt wall swarthmore edu article moqf lab ntt yajima nttcom ntt yajima hiroshi wrote tuesday game beloved yakult swallows jingu hanshin tigers beloved yakult ito nakagomi yakult arai central league standing pct hiroshima carp chunichi dragons hanshin tigers hated giants beloved swallows yokohama baystars hiroshi yajima mail yajima nttcom ntt ntt network information systems laboratories midori cho chome musashino shi tokyo japan tel fax matt wall wall swarthmore edu hey gotta job here april boston red sox seize first place
rec.sport.baseball	rules line well finally about key the official rules for the archives but before will ask again does anybody have the official mlb rules electronic format just trying save myself ton work they don scan well because the ridiculous format they printed thanks matt matt wall wall swarthmore edu hey gotta job here april boston red sox seize first place
rec.sport.baseball	indians pitching article apr ariel lerc nasa gov ecaxron ariel lerc nasa gov ron graham wrote article apr bme ccf org tknuth bio ccf org writes wow the tribe gave more runs last night their era and opponents are hitting against them the front office excited about calling matt young next week join the rotation well excited doesn exactly mean happy this case means our contract says have bring him release him and need find somebody someplace something until some the injured pitchers recover and some the young pitchers get ready best get move not the primary definition sue lakewood pain allpaper all lerc statistical baseball league lakewood pain allpaper tomorrow heroes league little worried about this pitching thing scarry even for the first games the season mesa seems settling down pitched well against the red soxs but the rocket matched him got chance watch them play against california wednesday and pitched well also then the dam broke wickander came and promptly was run homer snow heard the guys espn say that the tribe top prospects are pitchers anyone out there like post who these guys are and where they are the tribe espn again tonight against oakland john cogar always expect the worst cogar mac nswc navy mil join the cleveland sports fan society
rec.sport.baseball	why barry bonds not batting article car apple com chuq apple com chuq von rospach writes punjabi leland stanford edu sanjeev punjabi writes some evidence that not working take look the standings real easy get focussed minutinae and forget that the giants happen first place working you don screw changing things just because you think ought different that the reason why the toronto blue jays should keep alfredo griffin just because worked team winning doesn mean that everything that doing right team not winning doesn mean that everything that doing wrong otherwise borrow the sharks situation you would say that george kingston should fired some folks like argue about theoretical details prefer watch teams win when the giants slip third then can talk about how arrange the batting order until then think stupid focus what wrong for the simple fact that working then too late the problem with not fixing something while working that then there may not anything left fix mostly though the giants are winning and frankly long that continues rather silly second guess their strategy but evidently some folks would rather right than first the blue jays were simply perfect last year there was nothing that they could have done have improved that team not california angels nelson claudius leland stanford edu
rec.sport.baseball	john franco jason lee asks what with john franco the mets are hardly using him heard was completely recovered but now not sure you must have heard wrong his arm still sore hasn gone the but may managmenet treating him day day situation his doctors thought that was ready and they had him throw colorado but his arm wasn the strain throwing every day but just not quite ready pitch full strength yet this based interview that gave wfan radio thursday jon lyons jon lyons att com bell laboratories att jon lyons
rec.sport.baseball	hbp big cat the original poster wanted know how the big cat looked was also the saturday game montreal apr that rockies won haven paid much attention gallarraga since left the expos but his stance seemed much different stands more erect and very open with his left foot pointing base wondering this recent change stance for him andres had one glaring weakness hitter could always fooled curve ball low and away this indeed new stance for him maybe not being fooled easily for his patience dennis martinez definitely did not have his good stuff was grooving pitches andres you can hardly fault him for drilling them which did does andres generally start hot cold does take until may for most pitchers have confidence that curve ball low and away roger healey
rec.sport.baseball	cards mailing list update just wanted let all the people who mailed about possible cardinals mailing list that wasn able get the host the list here someone else will have many thanks bob netherton for his helpful info dick detweiler
rec.sport.baseball	bases loaded walk gives reds win article apr cornell edu tedward cornell edu edward ted fischer writes article mssc netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes quoted for future reference shown consistent the past overall performance splits even matching hitting pitching styles all these will give some advantage used properly was predicting the future the next was predicting that sabo was more likely get hit than samuel believed one two things sabo was more likely than samuel get hit that more good would done the long run leaving sabo regardless the expectation the actual outcome fact you don know what perez had mind when left sabo supporting the swap you are predicting the opposite fact don think anyone claiming that they can predict the future any particular future event but can believe that certain trends are due cause whether not have identified the cause and therefore will continue and not dismissing your work stating opinion you are saying that your work renders any opinion the contrary invalid that the retention that opinion some kind insult your work well yes you are aware its existance you claim incapable understanding though suspect you are simply unwilling yet you rather forcefully state the opposite you don seem think the work worth reading yet you obviously feel the topic important say this insulting think seeing insults other people opinions kind silly after all mark didn call you total idiot call your work stupid simply stated that didn change his opinion the subject did not say that consistent skill have said that indicator performance under certain set circumstances right this the beef has not proven indicator future performance under any circumstances least none that been able come with you know some where indicator future performance please let your secret player hits better tuesdays and always has and mark believes that might indication that will hit tuesday better next season well would you respond the same way some point you might admit that all variable might not known you who knows what this guy does every monday night maybe sees his sports shrink tuesday mornings has his vitamin shots monday nights but this something that true one guy only doesn mean that there will meaningful correlation for the entire league days the week nor that there should but doesn mean can make predictions based that for that particular player believe that season end that chris sabo batting average clutch situations will significantly lower than his batting average non clutch situations can prove that will happen guess just have wait and see this simply prediction for chris sabo for this year this prediction for all batters who have over the past few years hit xxx amount worse the clutch than overall only see prediction for one player here don see anything about all batters here another one for you joe carter batting average clutch situations was significantly below his batting average non clutch situations each year presume you think this random not going get into case analysis sure you can find somebody who hit poorly from and then hit poorly well you can also find those who hit poorly from and then hit well that exactly what mark trying though find hitters that have these correlation and ask whether can make predictions for these hitters based their past performance major league ballplayers just makes think that joe carter batting average the clutch not going high his non clutch situations gambler fallacy unless there reason expect consistency huh what does gambler fallacy have with anything whether you can know the reason for correlation not you can deny that has existent you can only make argument that you don think likely continue exist because you can see reason for exist run proves nothing can you give reason expect clutch correlate from one year the next seen detailed study someone posted recently why negative clutch would correlate the argument along the lines star player with splits will always see adverse condition late innings close game opposing manager will always bring pitcher face him where his manager will not pull him for don see how you can deny for total idiot yes you prove yourself unwilling even consider evidence that might suggest that you are wrong would say the term fits nicely tell does the term fit you have open mind what about you the shoe fits will you wear with open mind rudy
rec.sport.baseball	twins update paul csd csd uwm edu paul krueger writes article apr sctc com macomber sctc com chuck macomber writes wednesday game marked the first opposing left handed starting pitcher for the twins this year rickey bones nice post chuck but you made just one mistake bones right handed pitcher however hrbek grand slam came off graehme lloyd lefty salty mistake chuck
rec.sport.baseball	winfield spot the all time greats team article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david tate writes article wewd kto murdoch acc virginia edu drw delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker writes article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david tate writes ielding all time far anyone can tell did quick scan last night looking for players with peak comparable better than winfield quick dirty subjective judgement you could make good cases for ruth aaron ott robinson clemente kaline maris klein jackson waner and probably few others this not knock winfield but comment his consistency all those other players had awesome stretches and very good stretches while winfield has been more uniformly excellent hall fame absolutely top peak not sure top total career value yes almost certainly point taken when was winfield peak years anyway probably around
rec.sport.baseball	winfield has sbs hrs article mjones fenway mjones fenway aix kingston ibm com mike jones writes dans fore csd sgi com dan steinman writes last night the giants mets radio broadcast hank and ted were discussing the fact that there were only players who had ever hit homeruns and stolen bases their career while hojo was batting anyone have list not easy sounds come with all them couldn mays mantle aaron henderson morgan bonds dad frank robinson molitor yount guessing now interested see the whole list first please watch your line lengths not everyone has autowrap second franklin the rescue here the list player aaron mays frobinson rjackson winfield dawson baylor bobonds wynn strawberry morgan pinson yount kgibson sandberg players marked with are still active numbers through that only the probably rickey henderson who was listed george brett listed the surprises probably reggie bayor and wynn for steals maybe morgan lot people for homers was kind surprised realize that sandberg has that many steals though wasn surprised that the number was mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com dreams are real while they last can say more life havelock ellis
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris franjion spot colorado edu john franjione writes valentine not going cordial roger maynard complete and total dickhead send mail you insist details fact complete and total dickhead least newsgroups this one and rec sport hockey since hockey season almost over back being dickhead was fact going suggest that roger take his way discussion over football pro there this kind hormone only reasoning the standard being canadian and hockey what would have suggested that would work too important thread that everyone involved use the same body part produce post brain being the organ choice here bonvicini bonvicin cernvm cern
rec.sport.baseball	babe pitching babe ruth lifetime pitching stats selected era sho rat best year bos era led league bos era steve thornton stevet eskimo com
rec.sport.baseball	relative value players kime apr mongoose torolab ibm com mjones fenway organization eskimo north eskimo com yeah morris just knows how win that why lost for detroit funny how wins lot games when pitches good teams but loses lot when pitches bad ones and rings was the only criteria for success then teams would always tend repeat and eventually you have the same team win the every bleepin year sort like the yanks the morris decent pitcher the downside good not great career toronto will finish this year with morris and all those rings because their pitching staff was destroyed over the off season steve thornton stevet eskimo com
rec.sport.baseball	all time peak players article apr alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes very interesting gehrig below bonds and schmidt ricky henderson could steal bases but his hitting stats are not even close dimmagio uhhhh where winfield henderson stat are probably closer dimaggio than you think jim mann stratus computer jmann vineland pubs stratus com
rec.sport.baseball	box score abbrev woes article apr scott skidmore edu jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff writes can anybody figure out why some box score abbreviations make absolutely sense least the local gannett rag that finds its way door must have stared cleman the mets box for good seconds this morning wondering who the hell was wouldn make more sense use colemn seen colmn also blame the associated press after the official scorer balances the official score card they copy and give several diffent people one those person from whose job type using template laptop and transmit the offices new york rockefeller center via the telephone the box scores are not checked and just rebroadcasted over news delivery services there are corrections those are issued later the person sitting front laptop shea whereever whose fault that note the puts out boxscores three different formats with the one you see most newspapers being the first one last week they were denver maybe the person denver did this remember they just started with mlb out there check tomorrow paper and see the person who doing from shea does the same thing scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let mets
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players article apr blurt oswego edu ind blurt oswego edu writes believe that rusty staub was also jewish ball player rust staub not jewish fact think his father was minister scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let mets
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players article apr princeton edu roger astro princeton edu roger lustig writes article psm jwt oau org bbs comarow jwt oau org writes dave kingman jewish sez who sez dave kingman when used take off for rosh hashanna and yom kippur days they coincided with the season scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let mets
rec.sport.baseball	new home for the bosox article apr scott skidmore edu jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff writes while the multipurpose subject let not forget shea which was designed accommodate both the mets jets was the first stadium think have the box seats rollers they could oriented right angles for baseball parallel for football minor point shea stadium was designed multi purpose stadium but not with the jets mind the tennant the new york football giants had moved yankee stadium from the polo grounds and was having problem with stadium management the city did not own yankee stadium until the idea was get the giants move into shea when deal was worked out between the giants and the yankees the new afl franchise the new york titans approached the city about using the new stadium the titans were playing downing stadium where the cosmos played soccer the because shea stadium was tied into the world fair anyway the city thought would novel idea promote the new franchise and the world fair like they were doing with the mets the deal was worked out course with the jets gone jersey and truly good football stadium the mets are saddled with multipurpose stadium where because circular the seats are almost always too far from the action the mets announcers kiner murphy particular have always hyped beautiful shea stadium tipoff how unbeautiful truly under the impression that when murph says means regular goer shea not bad place since they cleaned and renovated the place remember this its year scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let mets
rec.sport.baseball	darrrrrrrrryl article mssc kcru netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes that exuberance disappeared immediately however when strawberry went into tirade the man all reports indicate used lot profanity and accused the man interference and therefore costing the dodgers game shortly afterwards other fans hurled food and beverages toward the man who made the catch dodger stadium officials started remove him from the park but then relented and just relocated him another area interview after the game lasorda blamed the fan for the loss strawberry also went into tirade about how the fans are stupid and they don care about winning times columnists similarly blasted the man who made the catch sounds like darryl being darryl tommy spending too much time slim fast and needs pasta fix and the media being their usual charming selves sounds like new york like story saw the replay and wondering what the big deal didn realize the folks were making big about think stawberry lasorda and the various media types should sit and watch the replay then apologize the fan others have questioned why darryl should concerned with what the fan did when has grand total rbi through the first nine games darryl has not gotten off good start has blame someone but guess the big debate continues what are the responsibilities the fan long the fan doesn interfere with the play see problems scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let mets
rec.sport.baseball	tigers win pitching duel yes true cold damp night last night tiger stadium dave wells david haas bob macdonald and mike henneman combined for victory over the texas rangers here are the highlights texas detroit wells gets the win now with era just under and henneman gets his third save three chances ken rogers started for the rangers and gets the loss was relieved burns the the rangers got their only run solo home run dean palmer the the tigers opened the scoring with rbi single fryman the then took the lead for good the bottom the seventh when whitaker greeted reliever burns with rbi double which scored tettleton whitaker turn crossed the plate rbi single phillips who has been red hot for the third tiger run this afternoon another battle southpaws bill krueger for the tigers craig lefferts for the rangers randy toronto blue jay fans thanks for wells and macdonald those guys have really been big help the tigers pitching staff
rec.sport.baseball	geronimo pena article avinnb cronkite central sun com bobn hawkwind central sun com bob netherton writes article apr eagle wesleyan edu dhart eagle wesleyan edu writes hey noticed that luis alicea starting for the cardinals instead geronimo pena pena hurt was just benched for poor performance anyone know after quick start pena has been stuck rut torre gave alicea the start try get pena out whatever funk has worked the past and has worked again pena went for last night against colorado dave spencer mead data central miamisburg ohio ggggg oooo daves meaddata com ggggg oooo ttt rrr iii bbb eee rrr bbb eee iii bbb eee
rec.sport.baseball	how speed games marginally realistic article mit edu ejb mit edu baranoski writes article apr vfl paramax com davidm gvls vfl paramax com david madden writes another pair suggestions remove the balk rule the runners responsibility stay safe matter what the pitcher does quite honestly this one ridiculous consider the following scenario runner third the pitcher starts throw home the runner takes off for home and the batter squares around bunt for the suicide squeeze the pitcher seeing this does not throw home but stops mid action and puts the runner run down the balk rule that prevents this from happening believe not this actually happened once oba ontario baseball association game milton ontario was the batter and amazement the umpire missed the years that played ball this was worst piece umpiring ever saw pablo iglesias ruth ece jhu edu
rec.sport.baseball	bosox win again against seattle last night boston red sox win its games games beating seattle roger clemson pitch not dominate walked least man first inns but valetin and greenwell hit homeruns and red sox prevail think that game must win for red sox seattle considering darwin will faced seattle ace randy johnson tonight
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris article apr newshub ariel yorku ariel yorku shawn luddington writes where did acker get ring from would have say that they are about even believe acker got ring from his wife when they were married the blue jays had such strong offense don tell that morris has this magical ability cause the offensive players score more runs don know why you guys keep bickering about morris the stats show mediocre pitcher best this year another case just happened win games saw many his games last year did pitch some good games but this crap about being clutch pitcher nonsense was constantly giving ahead runs the innings the clutch innings and the jays would somehow scrape win for him another major factor his wins that cito dont realize have bullpen gaston would leave morris for ever therefore giving him many more chances win games believe this the major reason won games last year barry walker bnr ottawa canada opinions
rec.sport.baseball	rusty religion recall from kieth hernandez auto biography rusty devout roman catholic kieth and rusty would carpool shea everyday but sunday when rusty would mass
rec.sport.baseball	best homeruns the best one saw last year was willie mcgee off matthews think phillie fierce line drive that was still rising when hit the second deck facade the vet willie mcgee had one homerun last year eric
rec.sport.baseball	baseball spanish article edu icop csa edu antonio pera writes recently heard the red sox wrol spanish speaking radio station thought was unreal the red sox spanish anyway want find out how widespread this being native know the scmets are spanish but not the yankmes wuold think that texas and fla are spanish are there any spanish speaking networks this local the braves day games are broadcast spanish station called favorita the station has daytime liscence only minardi michael georgia institute technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism internet prism gatech edu
rec.sport.baseball	bosox win again against seattle article jxu black clarku edu jxu black clarku edu dark wing duck writes last night boston red sox win its games games beating seattle roger clemson pitch not dominate walked least man first inns fair did walk batters also allowed only three hits none for extra bases only one run pretty good outing all told think that game must win for red sox seattle considering darwin will faced seattle ace randy johnson tonight there such thing must win game this early the season and can always hope that darwin pitches well cheers valentine
rec.sport.baseball	todd worrell update according article the times todd worrell will not ready come off the list friday sounds like has had another set back his come back present has stopped throwing the ball supposedly had velocity doesn sound like there any particular time table this point for when will back dodger
rec.sport.baseball	hbp big cat stevet eskimo com steven thornton writes the official mlb formula for obp hits plus walks plus hit pitch divided bats plus walks plus hit pitch plus sacrifice flies sac bunts and errors have effect source total baseball and they sure they might error recorded for example ground ball the batter would otherwise out officially hitless bat some other type error greenwell lets single doesn effect the obp but most errors are counted cuz
rec.sport.baseball	wounded redbirds does anyone know the status jeffries arocha
rec.sport.baseball	what does jeff king suck was second guessing the pirates ken ziolkowski transarc com writes still hoping for season from the bucs but really wished they would have coughed the keep doug around actually was hoping for barry bonds well jeff king still sucks check this out from the latest mcweekly slg obp rbi jeff king jose lind first off jeff has had like hits the last two games and walked yet again sorry ken but jeff king does have some power which means his slg won below and his walks are way that increase real jeff king will above average third baseman jose lind the other hand still doesn walk and clearly isn hitter bet that won getting any extra bases either once everybody starts pulling the lind shift were seeing the any predictions when sent buffalo released outright although since the lavalliere weirdness nothing would really surprise jeff king currently the top the league walks something jking
rec.sport.baseball	geronimo pena article ejr meaddata meaddata com daves meaddata com dave spencer writes article avinnb cronkite central sun com bobn hawkwind central sun com bob netherton writes article apr eagle wesleyan edu dhart eagle wesleyan edu writes hey noticed that luis alicea starting for the cardinals instead geronimo pena pena hurt was just benched for poor performance anyone know after quick start pena has been stuck rut torre gave alicea the start try get pena out whatever funk has worked the past and has worked again pena went for last night against colorado without opening this for sabermetric flame war would like question the notion that sitting rested player down has any real effect his long term performance sure man tired and needs real rest then taking break might constructive act perhaps man mentally strained then sitting him down might help the extent that that helps him relax but would like suggest that the long run players slump and benching probably irrelevant paul collacchi
rec.sport.baseball	hbp big cat article rec sport baseball healey qucdn queensu roger healey wrote the original poster wanted know how the big cat looked was also the saturday game montreal apr that rockies won haven paid much attention gallarraga since left the expos but his stance seemed much different stands more erect and very open with his left foot pointing base wondering this recent change stance for him andres had one glaring weakness hitter could always fooled curve ball low and away this indeed new stance for him maybe not being fooled easily yes the stance new don baylor was his batting coach louis last year and now his manager continuing work with him maybe andres has weak left eye and the open stance gives him better look the ball maybe simply improving his mechanics dunno but the change seems have enabled him hit the ball well years ago his selectivity has not changed gregg baseball ncar ucar edu colorado rockies
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris article apr ramsey laurentian maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard says say that one player better than another able say solutely that player team would have played better with player their lineup sheer speculation impossible ascertain take this its logical conclusion impossible ascertain whether not better hitter than roberto alomar better pitcher than juan guzman better center fielder than devon white after all were the blue jays can you really prove that they wouldn have won the world series both and while thank you mister maynard for your faith atheletic prowess can assure you that your faith misplaced bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	usa mcweekly stats article apr mnemosyne edu gspira nyx edu greg spira says rvesterm vma edu writes article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione says also have the impression from reading this group and bill james that elias bunch money grubbing jerks whose mission charge much they can for baseball statistical info and bill james not yeah sure you own the bill james players rating book bill james doesn sell statistics sells books with statistics but not the business providing stats like elias stats howe baseball workshop etc are greg funny seems that the stats major league and minor league handbooks which are nothing but collections statistics are authored bill james and stats inc and howe for the minor league handbook and not sure how the bill james player ratings book qualifies book with statistics while the elias analyst statistics book the analyst contains more stats sure but also contains more dialogue finally the point was not about the word statistics was about money grubbing don see how anyone who has looked the bill james player ratings book cannot consider him money grubbing bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	bob vesterman plan generate fan interest the owners are whining about baseball not being popular among large enough portion the population and have suggested various remedies such shortening the game trying convince that smoke embake emdominatebysheerintimidation accurate description what essentially laid back game forget those lame ideas here new and exciting two point plan generate interest baseball among the masses point one sex point two violence let face sex and violence are the only things that sell america here how can implement them the game sex cheerleaders cheerleaders and more cheerleaders dancing top the dugouts bringing hot dogs the umps during the seventh inning stretch running and down the stands the south bend white sox actually this violence baseball players are such utter wuss boys the pitcher beans the batter and both benches empty what called bench clearing brawl everybody just stands there and looks each other stand stand stand look look look hum then the bullpens come running when they reach the fight they just stand there too anybody coming off the bench who does not throw least one punch should suspended and fined further the bullpens should fight out the outfield not waste time and energy running the infield football sex violence basketball sex violence hockey violence baseball pastime nayshun yawn bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	yankee thoughts article apr clam com sam steamer clam com sam mandelbaum says yes everyone seems agreement that the yankees are finally moving the right direction they should finish over this year and maybe even the pennent race august however would take back few moves the jim abbott trade bleagh this was terrific trade snow will certainly better than mattingly the future but that they about the same now defensible opinion abbott one the few truly great pitchers the game today wade boggs not sure about this one think that good that pre boggs kicks hayes meulens whoevers ass and that boggs still isn all that shabby bad though that the yankees expect pre boggs and will probably get boggs however still play boggs over hayes bam bam spike owen you have full agreement here not all that much better than velarde and silvestri just about lock better than him however enjoy the fact that spike not nickname not that this helps the yankees danny tartabull strongly disagree much much rather have hundred games tartabull and sixty games dion james than games james bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	best first basemen article apr tesla njit edu drm tesla njit edu says don mattingly the best first baseman the history baseball always has been always will why bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	how does pitcher get save mikef bvc edu writes article apr newshub ariel yorku ariel yorku geoffrey dias writes the subject line says all what the rule that qualifies pitcher making save imho this the most untrustworthy silly stat today rules all baseball understanding qualify save pitcher cannot pitch more than three innings and the potential tying run must least appear the deck circle also the lead pitcher enters with cannot excede three runs this phenomenon known around work ready fire aim astounded the number times people post strong opinions about things they not only don understand but publicly admit not understanding fact there plausible argument that saves are more rational stat than wins for the record there are two ways that reliever can get save must finish the game and either have entered the game with the tying run base bat deck have pitched least three innings effectively pitcher may not get win and save the same game believe that the official scorers must assert more their authority determining winners savers etc for instance pitcher can come the ninth with lead blow the lead fall behind have his team come back the next half inning and earn the win has this pitcher earned win way but this argument that wins dumb stat not saves guy could pitch five strong innings middle relief and see his teammates rally tie the score assume came start the fourth and left after the eighth his teammate holds the opposition scoreless the ninth and they score run the bottom the ninth win the third pitcher earns the win and the middle reliever gets stat satisfaction this again doesn support your claim about saves the beginning your post mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com conceptual integrity the most important consideration system design frederick brooks the mythical man month
rec.sport.baseball	how does pitcher get save article apr newshub ariel yorku ariel yorku geoffrey dias writes the subject line says all what the rule that qualifies pitcher making save far know save opportunity when inning beyond and the batter deck can either tie win the ball game for example the bottom the inning and clemens pithching the red sox are leading and clemens has just givin hit there man first the batter and the batter deck could tie the game with homer jeff russel came the red sox reliever and finished the game without allowing the tieing losing run score would get the save and clemens would get the win thats how beleive works hope could help the cowboy
rec.sport.baseball	dennis martinez what know there been lot talk about jack morris horrible start but what about dennis martinez last checked with era the ageless wonder finally showing his age does usually start off the season slowly know plans start tonight hope comes around would appreciate any feedback concerning outlook rest dennis martinez season thanks advance mike
rec.sport.baseball	ugliest stance was ugliest swing article thz world std com tac world std com tackey chan writes ugliest swing not sure think the ugliset stance jolio franco the ranger wonder how that bat comes around time hit the ball looks bad but hey get the job done tac ugliest stance all time has oscar gamble the man would practically kneel front home plate order have small strike zone just lucky that strike zone size isn determined how big your afro outta here like vladimir alan
rec.sport.baseball	winfield article apr alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes you have better mail address lurie afraid can get the short version work any case winfield yes his career mere didn beat this until his sixth year the majors and has only topped once since his peak was the early and included some rather impressive seasons but then also had other scattered great performances like and definitely not smooth career curve cheers valentine
rec.sport.baseball	bosox down smoke seattle article apr galileo rochester edu uhura rochester edu wizard writes jxu black clarku edu jxu black clarku edu dark wing duck writes just had respond the bosox boasts bosox win again see red sox fans can never anything right your mind huh get excited about the sox winning you tell going over soon worry that over soon you say that are not true fans sox fan and think after what ive been through being sox fan that sox fans are true fans excited what they are doing greenwell was horrible against johnson who cares the sox are with all non darwin starts what are the mariners think the sox have the best record baseball still they lost one darn johnson quality pitcher and not the only quality mariner pitcher logged expecting see least one congratulatory note for chris bosio hitter but nary peep take this opportunity note that the red feet are now and slinking out town without having scored run the last two games even hit last night gem not that fans can compare our suffering those the followers new england long running tragedy but only one winning season history something burden bear take our joys when can get the mariners now have two hit pitchers the staff and not coincidentally those pitchers beat the red sox back back games jsh steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc com one thing about data sure does cut uucp uunet isc thor steveh the bulls hofferbert bell
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players article apr asd com scott asd com scott barman writes article apr princeton edu roger astro princeton edu roger lustig writes article psm jwt oau org bbs comarow jwt oau org writes dave kingman jewish sez who sez dave kingman when used take off for rosh hashanna and yom kippur days they coincided with the season the only problem dave kingman was always taking off rosh hashana yom kippur easter the day elvis died the entire spring training month ramadan purim the july both games that day birthday during the world series never had play there memorial day both games that day guys help out here run fresh out holidays that coincide with the baseball season and trying catalogue all the days his career that dave kingman least his bat went awol complete religious calendar detailing every holiday every extant religion the western hemisphere would appreciated only then can truly certain that dave kingman observed every holiday ever conceived course not scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let mets jason miller some doctor guy frank tanana win
rec.sport.baseball	juan gonzalez title not real come back ten years from now and look the careers juan gonzalez mark mcguire and then tell how bogus the juanderful one title was say that juan will preparing his hof acceptance speech while the voters will saying mark mcwho ken melcher typing real slow because mail kmelcher arco com know you can read very fast
rec.sport.baseball	ugliest stance was ugliest swing alan all all just another sepinwall writes ugliest stance all time has oscar gamble the man would practically kneel front home plate order have small strike zone just lucky that strike zone size isn determined how big your afro agree however have object growing the early and playing years mario mendoza esque little league was told that since hitting well sucked would best either walk take one the face for the team did both and yankee fan father would say bat like oscar gamble did and career obp was about not only was oscar fun guy watch but had some pretty cool baseball cards and helped become one the best little league players history outta here like vladimir alan jason miller some doctor guy frank tanana win
rec.sport.baseball	mlb standings and scores for wed apr mlb standings and scores for wednesday april including yesterday games national west won lost pct last streak home road san francisco giants won houston astros lost atlanta braves won los angeles dodgers lost san diego padres lost colorado rockies lost cincinnati reds won national east philadelphia phillies won louis cardinals won chicago cubs won montreal expos won pittsburgh pirates lost new york mets lost florida marlins lost american west won lost pct last streak home road texas rangers lost california angels won minnesota twins won chicago white sox won oakland athletics won seattle mariners lost kansas city royals won american east boston red sox won detroit tigers won toronto blue jays lost new york yankees lost milwaukee brewers lost cleveland indians lost baltimore orioles lost yesterday scores idle teams listed alphabetical order national league american league houston astros chicago white sox chicago cubs baltimore orioles los angeles dodgers texas rangers montreal expos detroit tigers cincinnati reds milwaukee brewers pittsburgh pirates minnesota twins atlanta braves toronto blue jays florida marlins kansas city royals san diego padres cleveland indians philadelphia phillies california angels san francisco giants new york yankees new york mets oakland athletics colorado rockies boston red sox louis cardinals seattle mariners joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
rec.sport.baseball	john franco article apr zeus calpoly edu jplee cymbal calpoly edu jason lee writes what with john franco the mets are hardly using him don worry this perfectly normal state affairs had they actually been using him you should worried heard was completely recovered but now not sure recovered totally from his injury that why not pitching can rest his arm enough that can get injured again pitching days rest and then have fun dining the diamond club shea stadium while struggles every day out there there anybody out there with information about franco would appreciate you could drop line quite happy drop john franco just the same bring back randy myers better make that bring back neil allen jason lee jplee oboe calpoly edu jlee cash busfac calpoly edu giants the most beautiful equation mathematics magic for all sad words tongue and pen the saddest are these number might have been john greenleaf whittier jason miller some doctor guy tanana
rec.sport.baseball	bases loaded walk gives reds win article apr cornell edu tedward cornell edu edward ted fischer writes article mssc netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes article apr cornell edu tedward cornell edu edward ted fischer writes for predicting the future has been entirely meaningless least has meaning don know how find did not say could predict the future you most certainly did really don want get into didso didnot debate with you but this somewhat the heart our disagreement did not say nor did imply that could predict the future you have inferred that comments meant this and you have based your rebuttal comments the fact that statistical studies have demonstrated that there reasonable basis for predicting future performance regard clutch hitting sabo samuel sabo clearly better hitter than samuel yet you would pinch hit samuel because you predict that samuel will clutch hitter and sabo will choke hitter right call that predicting the future that your opinion that sabo clearly better hitter than samuel the above data for year period ending last season last season samuel batted while sabo hit not park adjusted this season they are both hitting below albeit sabo with more bats will agree that over his career sabo has been better hitter than samuel but will also remind you that samuel has been better hitter certain situations than sabo did not predict that sabo would choke nor that samuel would get hit expressed opinion that had been the reds manager even reds fan that would prefer have samuel hit that situation than sabo you were have been the reds manager that time assume you would have had some basis for letting sabo hit rather than pinch hitting samuel sure some that basis would have utilized prior performance you just wouldn have used this particular aspect prior performance this not correct right would have used aspects prior performance which have been shown consistent the past overall performance splits even matching hitting pitching styles all these will give some advantage used properly properly yes see even all else were equal there would advantage gained looking past clutch performance and this case everything else pointed sabo please help what exactly everything else that pointed sabo well yes you are aware its existance you claim incapable understanding though suspect you are simply unwilling yet you rather forcefully state the opposite you don seem think the work worth reading yet you obviously feel the topic important say this insulting must say was not aware the publication can you email the information regarding its availability and guess must apologize all those who have done extensive study say supply side economics didn mean insult you but never did believe you were the right path sorry for contrary opinion position also regret that don have the ability prove that you are wrong but you are believe that season end that chris sabo batting average clutch situations will significantly lower than his batting average non clutch situations can prove that will happen guess just have wait and see this simply prediction for chris sabo for this year this prediction for all batters who have over the past few years hit xxx amount worse the clutch than overall what says you mean the first then you say just have wait and see but the second much stronger statement fact suggests rule can then test this rule past data see worked for recent years think you will agree that the rule didn work last year the year before that unlikely any better this year right the second your statement not mine not going get into case analysis sure you can find somebody who hit poorly from and then hit poorly well you can also find those who hit poorly from and then hit well well actually haven yet but not finished looking that haven yet found someone who hit significantly below his overall batting average clutch situations for the years and then reversed that relationship gambler fallacy unless there reason expect consistency run proves nothing can you give reason expect clutch correlate from one year the next seen detailed study why shouldn expect correlate nope sorry but you were interested reason why expect chris sabo ability hit the clutch correlate from one year the next think could you were interested reason why expect joe carter ability hit the clutch correlate from one year the next think could but you not interested that because you think that those conclusions could only valid they could extrapolated over the entire baseball population and they can the stupid was reference statement which was stupid and don see how you can deny for total idiot yes you prove yourself unwilling even consider evidence that might suggest that you are wrong would say the term fits nicely the problem here that believe you accept your work believe that trying predict future clutch performance based prior clutch history meaningless better than coin toss actually accept your work happens also have opinion that certain situations for certain players history superior inferior ability hit the clutch might suggest reason what such history could valid projecting future player performance for that player and chris sabo one such player tell does the term fit you have open mind well since defer your statistical wisdom think must have open mind now have pose the same question you the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	bases loaded walk gives reds win article apr cornell edu tedward cornell edu edward ted fischer writes article mssc netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes supposition that were find the same players consistently year after year one end the bell the other then might able make some reasonable conclusions about those players opposed all baseball players this may the root the confusion please consider the following hypothetical with open mind note that not yet saying that has anything with the question hand suppose have simplified lotto game detailed explanation deleted indeed you have struck right the heart our disagreement rebut opinion you have made analogy with game chance your hypothesis assumes that the lotto players have impact the selection the numbers and hence their ability win well that certainly true lotto but has absolutely nothing with the sport baseball when you start down the wrong path you finish down the wrong path repeat not think that statistical analysis prior clutch hitting performance accurate predictor future clutch hitting performance however think that analysis prior clutch hitting performance may for some players indicate deficiency their game that indeed will provide basis for projecting their particular future performance and think chris sabo such player the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	some baseball trivia article texdude bradley edu texdude bradley edu philip allen writes who holds the record for most career strikeouts while playing for one team who holds the record for most career strikeouts for the rangers hint nolan ryan isn either what two pitchers have over career saves for two different teams who the only player hit more career home runs and steal more career bases for the same team fair peeking your baseball stats phil allen texdude bradley edu post guesses some these and other trivia questions posted for most career with one team not ryan perhaps steve carlton with the rangers hough was there for long time the saves department maybe lee smith should have least hundred with the cubbies maybe enough with either the rsox cards then maybe gossage nyy and fingers mil oak don know about the homers steals dept some other article mets trivia could tim leary least the losing all teams maybe beating all too probably seaver and koosman fit too and randy johnson hitter think was scott bradley the other half the old mariner catching platoon who was behind the plate that night david plurad
rec.sport.baseball	white and black racism was about the phillies article quonm network ucsd edu king cogsci ucsd edu jonathan king writes there too many here for taste now which means reached maximum depth this thread cut out some things below but nothing that should affect the sense the discussion agree delete more well fester island com mike fester writes king cogsci ucsd edu jonathan king writes perhaps you can give more recent citation any player mentioned malingerer thanks guess don understand your question was trying imply that the accusations glenn davis malingering were certainly not played very much still the whispers reached san francisco certainly possible they were stronger elsewhere also was teammates making the aspersions any event know other player maligned the last couple years but any case believe mike lavalliere has been accused poor work habits and general sloth recently probably not malingering just was being released interesting that nobody heard much about these problems before they were important have heard sanders called many things well have not heard him called lazy given the sport phenomenon would difficult label him such exactly which means his media detractors have had say other things about him believe general phenomenon that writers don like you they find label that will stick matter who you are find myself more interested the selection labels than why writers feel they need act this way not that this fascinates that much either the original author point was that black and white players were por trayed differently the media and towards this gave highly selected list prove his case sanders name showed eventually dispute that sanders has ever been called lazy the media hmm big ego possible club house disturbance etc that good press but isn the total extent the press received pittsburgh where was called all kinds things including lazy and spoiled the local columnists again the actual words used may shift around with time and expediency but lazy tends higher the list for non white players least subjective opinion aside might interesting for somebody archival study player descriptions before and after the color barrier was broken and teams like the red sox which have been traditionally white nowadays most people think carl yastrzemski one those blue collar hard working guys but the early was often portrayed lazy bum really hmm never heard anyone accuse canseco being lazy nor sierra heard accusations that canseco was bad fielder but could great one put his mind ignoring whether not actually dave stewart was one the most vocal about this any event that not lazy least one poster the last week has fired off major screed the canseco lazy issue think your point best quibble and probably weaker than that that poster specifically stated allow the first not quibble then state that the media did not portray canseco being lazy the other person chooses accuse him after post that does not make quibble and fact the media around here tend play his time the wieght room hardly lazy and hardly quibble have you ever seen any mediot portray canseco lazy unconcerned with his fielding yes lazy bad fielder think this still interesting for that matter think canseco colorful off field antics get lots more national attention than those say roger clemens well had few more them least more that you heard about think one the questions here surrounds selective reporting having said that have say that the selective reporting hypothesis has the potential unfalsifiable least those who aren reporters police private investigators well canseco has been involved several felonies including his high speed record carrying concealed fire arms and course the domestic violence clemens had run bar canseco had that well and both cases the coverage was relatively minimal puckett stewart jackson said over represent non whites three anecdotal data points don make interesting counter argument btw which jackson are talking about here reggie darrin danny the only evidence offered anecdotal how can objected that the counter also anecdotal and seems like everybody who has ever won batting title among others has been accused some time caring more for his own stats than for the good the team also seems that you kirby puckett have never heard this accusation made puckett have heard boggs actually believe him but that another matter not living minnesota can say whether not this line has ever been used against kirby there far boggs goes not sure why you bring him since one the obvious prototypes for the line quoted along with ted williams rod carew and many others yes and agree with your assesment boggs rather specifically however you did say everybody who has ever won batting title has been accused selfishness have not ever anywhere heard this said puckett pendleton either similarly brett williams and others how about daryl strawberry and think the plus minus refers more the born again types butler and gaetti again you seem making argument from anecdotes the other hand argument the because jon says variety have other data have admit have problems generating lists non white players who became famous for their religious political beliefs while names like butler gaetti dravecky knepper hersheiser come rolling out there are others perhaps they are simply not outspoken except the case the born again types mention mike
rec.sport.baseball	all time best players career don mattingly
rec.sport.baseball	the babe the pride the yankees the babe and the pride the yankees offer very different renditions the sotry about ruth and gherig hitting home runs for the boy the hospital can some historian out there explain history version the story wouldn put past either both the movies season the truth with little extra spice any other comments inaccuracies these two movies eric behrens behrens swarthmore edu walk through hell gasoline suit keep playing baseball pete rose
rec.sport.baseball	some baseball trivia article binnt gap caltech edu daplurad ugcs caltech edu david plurad writes article texdude bradley edu texdude bradley edu philip allen writes who holds the record for most career strikeouts while playing for one team who holds the record for most career strikeouts for the rangers hint nolan ryan isn either what two pitchers have over career saves for two different teams who the only player hit more career home runs and steal more career bases for the same team fair peeking your baseball stats phil allen texdude bradley edu post guesses some these and other trivia questions posted for most career with one team not ryan perhaps steve carlton way gotta walter johnson all were with washington carlton spent too long louis collect less than there with the rangers hough was there for long time also guess hough due his length tenure though suspect bobby witt wasn far behind maybe even jenkins snuck close the saves department maybe lee smith should have least hundred with the cubbies maybe enough with either the rsox cards then maybe gossage nyy and fingers mil oak fingers had have achieved with either mil with yes with that guess otherwise was thinking that reardon has better chance having with min along with would think easily reaching with mon don know about the homers steals dept gotta willie mays fairly sure had over steals his career some other article mets trivia could tim leary least the losing all teams maybe beating all too probably seaver and koosman fit too hmmm leary really good point forgotten about him well nothing else there are plenty met pitchers the category could have lost all teams koosman leary torrez ryan seaver guess the best three guesses would leary ryan and either seaver koosman thomas talavage purdue university electrical engineering grad student grad school the greatest time one life where they pay you what you have spent the last years becoming good
rec.sport.baseball	how does pitcher get save article mjones fenway mjones donald aix kingston ibm com writes mikef bvc edu writes for the record there are two ways that reliever can get save must finish the game and either have entered the game with the tying run base bat deck have pitched least three innings effectively pitcher may not get win and save the same game close but there number also have entered the game with more than run lead and pitched least one inning pitcher finishes game which his team has won does not get the win and satisfies least one the three requirements gets save rusty russell peltz peltz russell yale edu box new haven
rec.sport.baseball	bob vesterman plan generate fan interest article rvesterm vma edu rvesterm vma edu writes the owners are whining about baseball not being popular among large enough portion the population and have suggested various remedies such shortening the game trying convince that smoke embake emdominatebysheerintimidation accurate description what essentially laid back game forget those lame ideas here new and exciting two point plan generate interest baseball among the masses point one sex point two violence let face sex and violence are the only things that sell america here how can implement them the game sex cheerleaders cheerleaders and more cheerleaders dancing top the dugouts bringing hot dogs the umps during the seventh inning stretch running and down the stands the south bend white sox actually this violence baseball players are such utter wuss boys the pitcher beans the batter and both benches empty what called bench clearing brawl everybody just stands there and looks each other stand stand stand look look look hum then the bullpens come running when they reach the fight they just stand there too anybody coming off the bench who does not throw least one punch should suspended and fined further the bullpens should fight out the outfield not waste time and energy running the infield think what bob describing here game which mad magazine called basebrawl have idea what issue but sure did cover the violence issue paul football sex violence basketball sex violence hockey violence baseball pastime nayshun yawn bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	how speed games marginally realistic article atlas nafb trw com mspede atlas nafb trw com writes article huvinniju jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo iglesias writes batter and amazement the umpire missed the years that played ball this was worst piece umpiring ever saw now this sounds like fun topic slo pitch softball game had the first base dugout one our players hit shot down the first base line with the bases loaded the only question was fair foul ball hits ground chalk flies umpire calls foul give him the standard didn you see chalk line his response was hit the foul half the line all started laughing mark pede not bad had similar situation slowpitch softball bases loaded weakest hitter the plate hits line drive over the third baseman head that hooked and hooked and finally landed ten feet foul ground almost hitting the fence down that side the field but the umpire called fair ball was coaching third yelling evrybody move base the ump position was still fair when passed third base why the other team didn immediately protest never know certainly weren going argue about since every body did manage advance one base safely there was also the time when batted ball ricocheted off runner from second base leg fielded the steps second force the runner from first and throw first time for what the umpire called triple play protest removed when won the game anyway clay
rec.sport.baseball	let play the name game san francisco quakes the way quakes the nickname for the padres affiliate the california league the rancho cucamunga quakes
rec.sport.baseball	rockies name pos rbi avg galarraga sheaffer boston cole hayes bichette young tatum murphy clark girardi castilla benavides pitchers young totals name era aldred ashby wayne neid parrett smith blair ruffin henry reed holmes totals
rec.sport.baseball	yakult swallows japanese pro baseball team wednesday game beloved yakult swallows jingu hanshin tigers beloved swallows kasai ito central league standing pct hiroshima carp chunichi dragons hanshin tigers hated giants beloved swallows yokohama baystars hiroshi yajima mail yajima nttcom ntt ntt network information systems laboratories midori cho chome musashino shi tokyo japan tel fax
rec.sport.baseball	braves update article steph pegasus uiuc edu steph pegasus uiuc edu dale stephenson writes sysg kad odin corp sgi com luigi sgi com randy palermo writes article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes did you see the same game saw gant most reasonable argued horrible call which hirschbeck correctly did nothing about gant then proceeded walk halfway base lean his bat and glare hirschbeck while don necessasarily subscribe the theory showing people this was obvious attempt gant hirschbeck left hirschbeck choice but take control the situation the bottom line gant started dangerous power struggle with hirschbeck when his team needed him most and lost the events saw were called strike hirschbeck was just did look like hirschbeck pointed the umpire before calling that strike thought that why gant was asking for the appeal the base umpire thought hirschbeck had gotten checked swing help from the wrong umpire shocked looking gant asks for appeal first appeal first gant steps out batters box hirschbeck immediately orders gant back bad move gant ignores hirschbeck and walks off bad move hirschbeck yells gant gant silent hirschbeck calls for the pitch after hirschbeck called for the pitch but before the pitch was thrown cox came onto the field was obvious that was trying get time called before the pitch but one was watching pitch called strike cox argues couldn see when came the field cox ejected players everywhere play finally resumes gant shouldn have ignored hirschbeck not returning made the strike call fairly likely although suspect argument might have gotten gant tossed altogether but hirschbeck had let gant step out the whole incident probably would have been avoided your listing pretty much agreed with what saw with the aforementioned addendums perhaps appeared differently the ballpark personally was amazed that gant didn get ejected but that why cox did called protecting your players and those people who would have thrown everyone out the game all can say that you making baseball history even the worst baseball brawls usually only the major instigators are ejected not everyone who comes onto the field and have say that those brawls are considerably more threatening the game than what the braves did fri night anyhow that last two cents the subject barring outrageous postings will try keep eyes open for more incidents involving hirschbeck think there will some with other teams well hope not eric
rec.sport.baseball	bosio hitter article hbsinnavr shelley washington edu dudgeon opus cheme washington edu writes csc albany edu brown philip writes watched the final inning bosio hitter with several people work after vizquel made that barehanded grab the chopper the middle someone remarked that had fielded with his glove wouldn have had time throw riles out yet the throw beat riles about two steps wonder how many others who watched the final out think vizquel had choice but make the play with his bare hand this morning paper was the radio vizquel was quoted saying that could have fielded the ball with his glove and still easily thrown out riles that barehanded instead make the final play more memorable seems litle cocky but made work entitled guess still that kind stupid move imo singing different tune had booted and the next guy had hit bloop single stranger things have happened hey used big dave stieb fan and unfortunately there such thing unearned hit cheers charles
rec.sport.baseball	how speed games marginally realistic article mit edu ejb mit edu baranoski writes article apr vfl paramax com davidm gvls vfl paramax com david madden writes pitcher throws occupied base more than time without successfully picking off the runner the runner advances base walked this last suggestion will probably increase the number stolen bases considerably suppose the pitcher uses his pick off attempts the runner can probably stretch his lead off the base given that there will extra pressure the pitcher get right this time encouraged the runner stretch his lead would probably also result ina greater number pickoffs think would workable rule but would probably best experiment another league before trying the bigs clay
rec.sport.baseball	bosox down smoke seattle article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione writes dietz parody data com kent dietz writes yea and chris bosio pitched hitter one over the minimum two have there ever been any other hitters mariner history randy johnson june against the tigers charles
rec.sport.baseball	yanks over george speaks apr eagle wesleyan edu kwolfer eagle wesleyan edu writes how about matt nokes run single against ron darling was that hit what while watching the game yesterday they flashed something regarding the boss talking about mark connor bullpen coach said something like mark connor fault that the bullpen horrible here again george sticking his non baseball nose the baseball business shut george just spend the money get the players and leave buck and the coaches and players alone saw that quote flashed the screen yesterday also and what enraged more than anything was not that george was speaking agai and complaining the media instead the proper people was that the idiot reporter provided george with outlet and opportunity create trouble this supreme example how the media can truly control situations the local beat reporters should know better and should stop trying one each other with quotes from the boss they just ignored him really simply away and problems would avoided what that reporter did was potentially open the floodgates again asshole
rec.sport.baseball	triva question bosio hitter wall swarthmore edu matthew wall writes don actually have the answer this one bosio after walking the first two batters retired straight for back end perfect game well there were outs row with hits walks between but really only retired batters row the first out the game was the front end double play still counts back end perfect game book though congrats chris bosio too bad the brewers couldn hold him jon hamkins hamkins uiuc edu university illionois
rec.sport.baseball	yankees schedule can someone this net post yankee schedule need this right away thank you
rec.sport.baseball	yankee thoughts velarde etc article netnews upenn edu kkeller mail sas upenn edu keith keller writes real long but good post yankee trades omitted disagree one point velarde yes maybe the yanks should have let him develop but rode the columbus shuttle way too many times probably the fault george but matter now his usefulness done will not able develop into good player this deep his career least don think his fielding horrendous maybe good short can his the curve all and think all his trips from new york columbus and back have demoralized him the point that just doesn care get rid him say the sooner the better for both the yanks and velarde keith keller let rangers velarde hasn been columbus recall for about three years granted hasn been full time player but when does play always thought had good bat might demoralized about not playing full time but hasn been shuttled around think been new york ever since had hits back believe don think gold glove calibre but doesn boot around either think velarde given chance could become extremely productive don have any stats back this and don know his defense would cost any games but think could help and has this year has already same goes for jim leyrtiz has big mouth but does get the job done when concentrates think the situation with leyritz that believes potential super star and gets pissed about not playing think might have realized something when the marlins rockies didn select him the yanks need worry about the bullpen right now kamieniecki and wickman militello the bullpen ouch praying that the will return last year form chris what listening giant wam umd edu anything that guitar god yankees dann huff plays
rec.sport.baseball	rule book trivia article maine maine edu ryan robbins maine maine edu writes rule states interference batter runner when running the last half the distance from home base first base runs outside the three foot line inside the left the foul line and the umpire judgment interferes with the field taking the throw first base the key word the rule and runner isn out just for running out the baseline out for interfering with the fielding the ball throw fielding the throw first because the catcher opted throw the ball over the batter runner head there inter ference sorry still don buy you certainly right that the runner not out merely for running out the baseline must interfere with the play but the argument here over what constitutes interference you certainly cannot infer from what you quoted that the batter runner must hit the ball guilty interference you haven posted definition interference all imo this calls for one the approved ruling that small print the rulebook something like approved ruling the judgement the umpire the runner running the left the allowed path caused the fielder make bad throw blocks the vision the fielder receiving the throw otherwise impedes the defensive team making play him the batter runner shall judeged guilty interference approved ruling the runner cannot judged guilty interference the unless makes contact with fielder hit the thrown ball the absence such approved ruling claim that this poor rules trivia question since cannot authoritatively answered len reed holos software inc voice ext domain lbr holos atl usa uucp lbr holos uucp
rec.sport.baseball	jose canseco swing waugaman nac enet dec com glenn waugaman writes gary list the ten slowest bats baseball andre dawson what peter gammons andre tremendous bat speed dawson bat speed great that dawson has trouble hitting the ball the right side the left field line without counting before swinging bat speed never before seen from year old man much less from any red sox player precede him yes that him was not specific enough just because someone consistently pulls the ball does not mean that they have quick bat dawson release slow and after all may swing early and rotate his hips that hits the ball the left side all the time but swings slowly for disagreeing with peter gammons whoa that never happened before next thing you know probably believe dave campbell the biggest imbecile even come near mic and that ray knight has the drained crankcase oil gary huckabay outside that was right down the bleedin pipe balder than any kenny realize don have great control but dave the net mon gary that was styrofoam cup the really plate foot your right throw the ball
rec.sport.baseball	john wetteland derek lilliquist info please there was wondering anyone knew john wetteland was put the again after his first day period was read the usa today sports section that for surgery repair broken toe and was wondering that was new thought was just letting heal another question derek lilliquist the main closer for the indians now that olin gone need know cause need find reliever replace wetteland and far lilliquist doing any information either the players would greatly appreciated thank you for your time ryan robin texas rangers jose canseco for mvp ryan robin weatherford hall corvallis robinr prism orst edu
rec.sport.baseball	john franco date fri apr gmt from tackey chan tac world std com wall swarthmore edu matthew wall writes anybody know what with john franco are the mets just starting him off gingerly because the small amount spring training work what the mets are really starting him off slow mike maddax and young can the job closing torborg has said that franco his closer but will give him rest and not rush him since there need does not want franco get hurt his return have this guy know what like see him pitch inns that lat weeks tac well they just said that franco will probably the tomorrow they mentioned career minor leaguer the warm body who would along forget also when answering questions about the rotation coleman broadcaster said that hurst gone about month month and half which when should finish hab later dennis dennis parslow that better korean good troy luck symbol remo williams psilink com
rec.sport.baseball	best homeruns article tqinnmnf senator bedfellow mit edu cmk athena mit edu charles kozierok writes article apr osf org dswartz osf org dan swartzendruber writes the best home run have ever seen came off believe not roger clemens sorry val couple years ago threw ball incaviglia which was literally inky neck and absolutely hammered the crap out after the swing clemens nonchalantly motioned for new ball didn even turn around look even get upset the ball hit the lights the left field standard some feet about the green monster over feet above the ground total truly amazing shot was that game behind home plate next scout who was manning the radar gun the season was winding down and roger didn have his best fastball topping out contrast frank tanana who went low with one lollipop the process striking out phil plantier five times the night inky shot would have gone further than any ever seen hadn crashed into the lights not the lightstand you say over feet high roy hobbs like and bounced back onto the field that had have been footer unobstructed edging out jackson drive off oil can boyd the top the centerfield bleacher back wall for the best seen personally was sitting under that one glenn waugaman digital equipment corporation littleton waugaman nac enet dec com
rec.sport.baseball	mike greenwell and vaughn stat help dear anybody rochester where people can look rangers penguins playoff game and say joke heard hey whats this its not even the ahl its just the nhl think because this get red wings orioles aaa stats and updates but stats specifically looking for red sox stats far like all them but could handle just greenwell and vaughn can anybody please help wizard uhura rochester edu
rec.sport.baseball	all time best players article apr woods ulowell edu poiriera woods ulowell edu writes this chatting about the best player all time pointless you can compare players from different era course you can you just have careful about what conclusions you draw you will notice the best pitchers stat wise were the and and the best all around hitters probably came from the huh the and were the worst decades for great pitching grove vance dean and not whole lot else for the best all around hitters stat wise ruth gehrig foxx greenberg hornsby cobb etc all played before the stat wise the were graveyard for hitters now have great number great pitchers and equally great number great hitters and fielders also how you know which ones you consider great about fielding the gloves were much smaller than they are now the early years baseball maybe hitter like sheffield with the and rbi even though was probably fluke year can compared mantle because the pitching sheffield faces faster and not mention better the sheffield also has better shoes more time between pitches you can run the comparison but there are lots things take into account same could said for frank thomas who said the best hitter since ted williams although frank defense does suck well can compare them can all saying that you can compare players from different era you want best player try choosing best players from different era that why can compare players the standard their era and can keep mind era era differences without throwing our hands despair way there reasonable basis for comparison you haven shown what reasonable about the mantle sheffield comparison that you yourself did roger
rec.sport.baseball	speeding games article rudyc wcsg netcom com rudy netcom com rudy wade writes feel that talking about speeding baseball games like trying keep signal noise ratio high rec sports baseball matter how much you talk about how reasonable your arguments there will always people who quote entire article with signatures make one line comment reply woof whether through their stupidity denseness excitement and overeagerness bless with their insight matter what said they will always keep doing same with ballgames matter how much might benefit the game for the umpires enforce the rules and for the players managers coaches stop wasting our time just ain gonna happen rudy agree
rec.sport.baseball	all time best players drm tesla njit edu writes career don mattingly lou gehrig ironman steve novak ban the bomb ban the pope steven advtech uswest com
rec.sport.baseball	cubbies there chicago cubs mailing list like join any help appreciated
rec.sport.baseball	time game article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes the reason unhappy with the length games today summed above for extra minutes game average the and extra minutes average the seeing fewer runs score now what think seeing more pitches more strikeouts over game the over game more the more walks game more yep and the don have denote slow game either last night sid fernandez was mowing the giants hitters down innings yet the first innings the game were quite brisk also threw pitches leading believe isn just the number pitches that determines the length game but the behavior between pitches michael zimmers voice softhelp suppliers software developers data
rec.sport.baseball	cub fever article kingoz camelot kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes cub fever hitting again beginning think they have chance this year what the heck thinking sorry just moment incompetence really orin bradley really jester disguise hear then again must remember that are indeed cub fans and that the cubs will eventually blow after all the cubs are the easiest team the national league root for pressure you know they will lose eventually well suppose must have faith after all they look pretty good and they don even have sandberg back yet cubs cha
rec.sport.baseball	why barry bonds not batting article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione writes don understand this all matt williams has demonstrated throughout his career that will not wait for good pitches hit won take walks rather swing the opposing pitcher why would groove fastball williams and have him hit well when know that williams will swing and miss least not hit very well low and away curve matt problem really more ability than attitude isn that got his mind that wants swing away but rather that still total sucker for the curve ball looked for while that was getting better but still his weak point whether does him any good have bonds behind him the net stat mavens will probably tell you there reason that should but thinks will might self fulfilling prophecy whether the giants lineup optimal who knows batting bonds the team best hitter fifth does seem odd but the and hitters aren exactly messrs oba they aren giving much there and although clark isn the overall offensive force that bonds seems better suited the spot assuming course that starts hitting one these days michael zimmers voice softhelp suppliers software developers data
rec.sport.baseball	game length was braves update ecaxron ariel lerc nasa gov ron graham writes think that everything else being equal not too much ask that weeknight game can shortened half hour cutting out warmup pitches dawdling outside the batter box commerical time outs and that sort thing not asking for too much how you know they can shortened half hour has anybody done study determine how much time actually wasted say these games heather hhenderson vax clarku edu
rec.sport.baseball	new yankees mailing list all got tired waiting for mailing list going make one just send your complete mail address your message and send you confirmation and the yankee mailing list address john yankees
rec.sport.baseball	ron gant stalling and hirschbeck apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes article steph pegasus uiuc edu steph pegasus uiuc edu dale stephenson writes but the past disputed strike call has been enough reason step out the batters box may not good idea may even irritate the umpire but seen lot and seen tolerated just not this time the key words here are the past everybody was warned before the season began that the umpires had been instructed enforce the rule the interest speeding the game when see this happening other players post public apology hirschbeck until then think this was case selective enforcement dale stephenson steph uiuc edu baseball fanatic considered good look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	how start cardinals mailing list would shame for cards fans the net through the championship season without mailing list talk would willing look starting one except there one little problem don know the first thing about how what requires terms resources time some kind soul could mail the particulars getting starting and managing mail list see would feasible for start cards mailing list thanks advance dick detweiler rdetweil hpdmd boi com
rec.sport.baseball	rooky question about the era whitty com joe whitty writes thomas theiner thein damabus informatik rwth aachen wrote there german and have been into this mlb stuff since almost one year now there are many problems occuring for one them the era statistic for pitchers what does say era indicates the average number earned runs attributed pitcher per nine inning game thus pitcher pitched innings and gave earned run his inning equivelent perfomance would earned runs thus his era compute the era you simply take the number earned runs divided the innings pitched and then multiple the result era think there another formula for era heard something about last year not sure what but gonna give stab allows for pitcher pitch more than innings time and not benefit cuz uses outs recorded instead innings pitched era outs recorded like said not sure this exactly but pretty sure they changed something the sort earned run run that given the pitcher that not attributed fielding error more specifically error occurs that represented the third out all runs scored after the error are considered unearned runs earned runs are also runs scored result players who were left base when the pitcher exited the game here are some examples there are two outs inning and there are men base error occurs that represents the third out all the runs after this error and not counted earned runs pitcher issues some base balls walks and leaves the game before the inning completed responsible for the people who were left base the those runners who were left base score and the score was not result error those eraned runs are attributed the pitcher who left the game hope this explains things for you joe
rec.sport.baseball	game length was braves update article apr vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes ecaxron ariel lerc nasa gov ron graham writes think that everything else being equal not too much ask that weeknight game can shortened half hour cutting out warmup pitches dawdling outside the batter box commercial time outs and that sort thing not asking for too much how you know they can shortened half hour has anybody done study determine how much time actually wasted say these games probably nichols has given the average game times and average runs scored for and very nice piece information nichols who knows she may listening and not have her kill file after all those numbers indicate somewhere the neighborhood half run less being scored per game and the games taking minutes longer something being done now that wasn done ten years ago which extending the games minutes nichols thinks more pitches given the increasing specialization pitchers wouldn surprise not simply more pitches though don think unreasonable think that something can done get ten those minutes back then get couple more from shortening the warmup time for relief pitcher after comes and couple more still from enforcing existing rules which have been stated other posts this thread and other related ones the problem who decides whether that time wasted you don seem think all right now think although have heard one case favoring giving the reliever all the warmups thinks needs the difference mounds between the field and pen but who knows the rules get changed maybe something didn foresee will happen change mind but you can bet lot minds would fail foresee the same thing else nothing will changed can play better than anyone there only one barry bonds playing himself two movies
rec.sport.baseball	all time best players overall career don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly don mattingly
rec.sport.baseball	bonilla article apr island com fester island com mike fester writes article apr princeton edu roger astro princeton edu roger lustig writes when say black mean born black people for the purposes this discussion hispanic players were baseball before and one team the signed lots hispanics because they went over better with the local audience than blacks did what about black hispanics good question impression not backed evidence that general south the borderness seems exempt one from the hiring firing effect was talking about back the there were some attempts hire black cuban ballplayers they were rejected the commissioner and others and why would more hispanics stick around than blacks don know but remember this the country that had special racial laws for one group and one group only blacks our national history man you had better some serious reading really really doubt that you meant say this well what did mean say aside from some short lived exceptions such japanese internment only blacks were affected laws regarding slavery jim crow miscegenation military service etc claim exclusivity not airtight that you can come with this that exception fine have cookie but compared this list other racial group put with legal onslaught worth discussing length roger
rec.sport.baseball	winfield spot the all time greats team article apr alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david tate writes article wewd kto murdoch acc virginia edu drw delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker writes article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david tate writes ielding all time far anyone can tell did quick scan last night looking for players with peak comparable better than winfield quick dirty subjective judgement you could make good cases for ruth aaron ott robinson clemente kaline maris klein jackson waner and probably few others this not knock winfield but comment his consistency all those other players had awesome stretches and very good stretches while winfield has been more uniformly excellent hall fame absolutely top peak not sure top total career value yes almost certainly point taken when was winfield peak years anyway probably around that the trouble what peak years wavers between excellent and very good with real bell shaped pattern there was fine year and were merely really good with the yankees think was the best that was the one with the course wasn bad either been the bigs since with one year intermission for surgery though doesn have the mix skills that pete rose did like pete rose one way not natural hitter winfield swing used the ugliest thing new york and that includes the gulf western building but his sheer athletic prowess and physical size made for lot fascinating player watch even now not obviously great any one way but able quite few things surprising ways and surprising levels roger
rec.sport.baseball	rule book trivia article maine maine edu ryan robbins maine maine edu writes this week play took three days get but try anyway naturally haven seen the answer with runners first and second and one out the batter hits easy pop fly the third baseman the umpires declare the infield fly rule and the third baseman lets the ball drop the runner second heads for third and the third baseman flips the ball the short stop who tags the bag before the runner safe the correct call infield fly batter out fair runners may advance own risk gotta tag caught etc not force and the pop was not caught regardless whether the tags wasn clear above hasn got the runner out the umpires don declare the infield fly rule and the third baseman allows the ball drop and throws the short stop who tags the runner from second while the runner between second and third out see rule approved ruling below this case the umpire has decided for whatever reason that the infield fly rule doesn apply sounds like bad call here but that not the point the batter not out force situation created therefore the runner out unless rule the ball dead and the batter safe then guess the runners would advance unmolested can really tell from that the ball dead this situation what the call and pertinent rules definition infield fly when infield fly called runners may advance their own risk infield fly rule the infielder intentionally drops fair ball the ball remains play despite the provisions rule the infield fly rule takes precedence batter out when infielder intentionally drops fair fly ball line drive with first first and second first and thrid first second and third base occupied before two are out the ball dead and the runners runners shall return their original base bases approved ruling this situation the batter not out the infielder permits the ball the drop untouched the ground except when the infield fly rule applies jim dean internet jimdean bnr national capital baseball league mild mannered computer scientist phone president pitcher knuckler bell northern research ottawa ont booth not too legit hit phone fax phone
rec.sport.baseball	how speed games marginally realistic really speed the game umps need start calling strikes the way they used talking about making the strike zone start the knees and the top the letters forget this the strike zone the general area the groin lot less and counts and quicker game
rec.sport.baseball	advertised commercialized death during the local rockies broadcast the other day don baylor went out bring relief pitcher and graphic came the screen that was the and sponsored pitching change saw another game where the pinch hitter was sponsored other times during the game rockies announcer duane kuiper was setting the strategy that the defense might use with the expectation that charlie jones would jump and discuss the situation but what does charlie read beer advertisement and leaves duane hanging duane strategy proved prophetic these examples happen over and over radio and braodcasts making them sometimes very boring listen guess just matter time before player sells his name budweiser nike etc don think will long until hear nike budweiser drills deep left field chevrolet goes back back gone the apple macintoshes formerly the boston red sox are the world champions back work anthony jivoin national center for atmospheric research rsf atd box boulder rockies fans have the brooms ready for the marlins this weekend
rec.sport.baseball	apology for article again apologize everyone out there whom might have pissed off with that one article about don mattingly when said was the best first basemam history meant fielding first baseman which one can argue with that
rec.sport.baseball	strike zone width was jose canseco swing article atlas nafb trw com mspede atlas nafb trw com writes huckabay counting frames for bat speed discussion ommited well just studying tape frame frame that all the biggest thing that you notice however how bastardized the strike zone has become death the umpires union the plate across not call the high strikes strikes and quit calling pitches outside strikes they balls speaking this wide strike zone sure like see cameras placed each major league park such that overview shot home plate available cbs had this during the did just dream these pictures would feedback device for the umpires that they can see just how terrible not there calls were tapes could sent the league evidence bad ball strike umpiring tapes are available evidence bad out safe calls the bases guess that nobody noticed that the calls during the world series and fact all year have been pretty much consistently correct remember the rule says strike any part the ball passes through the strike zone would certainly agree that high strikes are not called who could argue this point but all all think and out called pretty well rstimets
rec.sport.baseball	hey red sox fans paula koufax com paul andresen writes woof gawd how hate myself for doing this but sometimes you get those urges that are too powerful overcome quote sportscenter bosiooo ooo ooo hey bosio threw what the hell red sox fan going say that heck remeber matt young last year ick tac
rec.sport.baseball	stats question just wondering whether the official mlb stats includes intentional walks the category not wenhsiang lin
rec.sport.baseball	tickets for sale brother purchased baseball tickets for texas rangers toronto bluejays july but was unable get vacation days get there anyone interested purchasing the following arlington stadium arlington texas texas rangers toronto bluejays thursday july friday july tickets section helmet night each tickets section each you want them all the total please contact over mail directly brother randy hollister rosemont lane streator brother would eternally grateful for someone purchase these tickets thank you broocks knossos washington edu
rec.sport.baseball	the babe the pride the yankees behrens swarthmore edu eric behrens writes the babe and the pride the yankees offer very different renditions the sotry about ruth and gherig hitting home runs for the boy the hospital can some historian out there explain history version the story wouldn put past either both the movies season the truth with little extra spice any other comments inaccuracies these two movies good question kind wondered about this myself just one thought had the babe himself was pride the yankees which made think that version may closer the truth and the babe must have been pretty good gut the movie even though some the scenes didn make him look completely flattering chris roney mail chris roney sfu
rec.sport.baseball	highlights article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes might suggest that more appropriate forum for game game highlights particular team mailing list rather than rec sport baseball looked might see why you selected that particular word and discovered the line express permission liberty probability possibility also said something about being polite alternative may the presence probability possibility can certainly used partially explain your word selection say all extents and purposes yes you might fact you did not that you were asking specifically the next question why would mailing list more appropriate don all get mailing lists surely don all get mailing lists about the teams about which are most enthused seems baseball appropriate place look for information about teams one doesn necessarily follow day day this not intended flamage but rather attempted answer you posed your post question bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait anyone for lemur sooshi that sushi learn spell you pathetic winker
rec.sport.hockey	don cherry help out here article apr alchemy chem utoronto golchowy alchemy chem utoronto gerald olchowy writes article mfpirbo wbli ispc andrew cmu edu william willis andrew cmu edu writes person who has rarely even seen don cherry and doesn know anything about him don know whether just this area pittsburgh the usa that deprived his broadcasts whether canadian thing altogether seriously what all about know was coach one time and from the volume posts about him someone surely getting steady diet him somehow but question what the deal with him secondly are the comments his that read about the net merely flame bait people actually take him seriously gotta tell you from what see really sounds like ass let know maybe missing something for those you who complain about don cherry and wonder why popular the reply dick vitale and john madden and bobby knight and joe garagiola and howard cosell john madden picks gary clark the redskins for his all madden team lot over much better receivers for much the same reasons cherry sings the praises doug gilmour little guy with heart yet one doesn see string american posts saying that john madden has lost his marbles dick vitale always promoting this kid from this high school that college with outrageous statements why should americans expect that canada would not have such characters relation our greatest passion which hockey canadians are very similar americans culturally our sports are just hockey and curling whereas with americans football basketball baseball and bowling gerald like add that think canadian hockey fans like don because his kind hockey the hockey promotes his appearances the kind that they think used get played the old team nhl there kind nostagia for the old days before expansion the soviet series gretzky and even bobby orr when guys weren afraid take hit nobody floated and defensemen played defence who cares that that probably never really existed the myth still around canada and all the european fluence the game has diminished some people eyes personally like add before get flamed love the fast paced european game and think don cherry bit idiot have say that missed him when was living the states though entertaining even you end throwing your popcorn the screen when stand all the misstatements that made vice president dan quayle sam donaldson too nick duncan duncan mprgate mpr
rec.sport.hockey	espn yours article news udel edu tmavor earthview cms udel edu writes various justifiable rantings espn coverage several deleted the only way change espn thinking even possible complain them directly anyone know there telephone bristol heh try the rec autos sport faq they are always calling espn complain sure you could find the number for abc there too many west coast viewers were compaining about how something boring hockey cut into the long beach find hard believe that espn doesn think viewers will simply change the channel from boring game know did and then when they didn show the nyi wash overtime was livid wanted watch baseball could have turned the phillies padres extra inning game instead went bed angry boycotted espn morning sportscenter today was still incensed were you and several the other people here seems asleep the day contracts were explained aspn has piece paper saying must show that baseball game happens many businesses payedd money have their commercials run during baseball game this business not your own personal video servant wife says shouldn bed angry but last nite grrrrrrr maybe you should put that anger into something positive for example saw ads for the new dodge both the espn and kbl broadcasts why not write dodge saying that thanks the ads run during the stanley cup playoffs you will now concider their products the future they love hear stuff like that and the future will more willing buy commercial time for hockey games giving espn and other networks more incentive carry games just one example come people great think hockey does not leapfrog the big three overight tim mavor known many names college marine studies some call tim univ delaware newark you know much that hidden tim tmavor pandora cms udel edu monty python and the holy grail
rec.sport.hockey	you were pat burns mark whitten nfet cmuvm csv cmich edu writes were pat burns throw the towel the wings dominated every aspect the game trying mix the lines dead end the rangers found out last year playoffs too late try line juggling this point gld souviens gary dare gld columbia edu winnipeg jets gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	sabres are playing well but have agree boston good team but streaky they put together great streak capture first place the adams but for what they have lost the home ice advantage for least the first round and might not make out would love see the sabres win the first round even though bet the bruins pack well perhaps should start betting against the sabres more often ciao jason bittle bittle canisius edu pillsbury dough boy quote compute therefore
rec.sport.hockey	 article bigboote wpi edu ching bigwpi wpi edu the logistician writes need all the players wearing the nhl know now only one ray borque for the bruins any help would greatly appreciated believe that phil esposito was the first wear when played with the rangers the this was the season that they put the rangers crest and modern style numbers the jerseys instead the new york rangers block letters and two colour numbers took because the rangers already had hockey night canada made big thing out saying was the biggest uniform style change long time this was before pittsburgh and vancouver changed their colours dwarf jim jordan don mean tell you how live dwarf gate bnr internet your life that what the for work for bnr not speak for but didn believe jesus going hell peter heath
rec.sport.hockey	nhl draft san jose will then get kariya know that kind funny cause seen kariya campus with sharks hat pat ellis bruins umaine black bears number hockey east regulars season champions hockey east tournament champions paul kariya hobey baker award winner ncaa div hockey tournament champions ggggooooooo bbbllluueeee
rec.sport.hockey	german audience lunatic article apr ousrvr oulu golf phoenix oulu jouko kylmaoja wrote watched the game germany czechs today and was astonished about the behaviour the german audience the german team got few penalties the last period and the crowd went grazy they threw coins extra pucks and other trash into the rink that stupid what guess the canadian referee one the isostar bros gave the german team penalty for that but didn help much guess the germans just are proud over their nazi kill all everyone but germans sucks attitude they just seem have that kind attitude every possible sport remember the european champs stockholm soccer really pisses off not mean that every single german has this attitude that sucks but most them seem can understand your anger about the german audience mean was the finnish team they played and they were taking advantage the ridiculous penalties the canadien ref called the last period the germans got match penalty and minutes misconduct for practically nothing and seconds after that the german goalie got two minutes for delay game for shot that was deflected and went into the crowd the resulting skating advantage lead the deciding goal point when the germans were starting come strong also sick the nationalism that going german sports events you watch for example tennis davis cup match the players are often not able play for minutes because the crowd obnoxious but have admit that this kind nationalism strong even stronger most other countries you should the and watch the way they present the olympics television the soccer crowds england the finnish spectators nordic skiing events mean makes sick see all this nationalism all over the world and would rather see the best team player win and get cheared not mind favorite team looses somebody that better plays more attractive and have admit that most sports the german national site not favorite team watch the german soccer team boring watch for example but reading the above posting think that you are the same level these crowds you are criticizing easy talk nearly all germans nazis and nationalists thats the kind propaganda that all ultraconservative people use against germany true that there great danger arising nationalism germany but from experience most the people least the people that know also regard this big threat and are trying demonstrate this attitude now why can just look people human beeings and not try put them into drawers corresponding their nationality all russians are communists all americans are capitalists all germans are nazis all fins are hanging around beeing drunk ferries opinion your comment shows the narrowness your mind and that you don seem different from the nazis you are talking about thomas there time hate barely time wait jerry garcia robert hunter
rec.sport.hockey	espn yours actually was angry when they went away from the pens game being pens fan central virginia kinda tough only get see them espn and when they play the caps cause close enough get all the caps games when espn switched the caps aaaggghhh matt
rec.sport.hockey	flyers with without eric article apr btree uucp terry btree uucp terry whalen writes path netnews upenn edu newsserver jvnc net howland reston ans net usc news ervice uci edu network ucsd edu btree terry from terry btree uucp terry whalen newsgroups rec sport hockey subject flyers with without eric message apr btree uucp date apr gmt references apr lehigh edu organization brooktree corporation lines article apr lehigh edu ksc lehigh edu kevin carragher writes the philadelphia inquirer posted the following stats with lindros goals against average goals scored average without lindros goals against average goals scored average think the difference obvious dominant player skip yes will become major franchise player and bring the flyers the cup years will they name lindros captain next year recchi geoff
rec.sport.hockey	goodbye good riddance get lost stars first off anyone accepted into the western business school not dork second just because one person out country million doesn think before she posts article does not mean that she embarrasing canada this network for expressing what you feel are your thoughts just because someone doesn agree with you this does not give you the right call them assholes anyways the north stars are shit mon leafs whoa there lighten andrew when was referring you dorks the western business school was specifically referring those assholes writing obnoxious comments insulting the state and people minnesota for apparent reason being canadian and one who has friends who attended uwo personally don want associated with the idiots who wrote those messages one more thing andrew until this season the leafs have sucked pretty badly over the last umpteen years have they won the cup during our lifetime the north stars haven been the only shit team the norris kea
rec.sport.hockey	selfish hockey fans tuesday when was raining chicago espn provided bonus hockey coverage now seems though some fans are ticked off that the wash was replaced with the angels game people must realize that there are more baseball fans instead hockey fans the the baseball game was scheduled air and advertisers money was paid they can skip the baseball game why don you people chill out and enjoy whatever coverage you can get geoff filinuk
rec.sport.hockey	habs late quebec dominated habs for first periods and only roy kept this one from being rout although did blow goal canadians showed third but nords were playing dump pull back most the time hextall made some good saves but really this one was lost first period when nords scored could have had plus another canadians are dead meat they may take one but this one over tee jacques next time you might rest players forget about place welcome the adams division dennis
rec.sport.hockey	upcoming schedule article qve hsdndev harvard edu nhmas gauss med harvard edu mark shneyder writes hey guess what coming espn for change playoff which doesn involve the pens not that there anything wrong with that espn games thursday game pens devils gary thorne and bill clement saturday game caps isles tom mees and john davidson abc game sunday game pens devils gary thorne and bill clement only you are the eastern time zone pacific will get the kings calgary espn named its broadcast team tuesday paired tom mees play play with john davidson analyst ppv mark nancy spera imt division didn know for fact that chevron petroleum technology elvis was working donut shop box habra beaver falls swear was tel njs chevron com driving this truck scotty baldwin
rec.sport.hockey	results april etxonss ufsa ericsson staffan axelsson writes forwards richard zemlicka the season playing for ehc freiburg germany benny benny reif email reif sun ruf uni freiburg disclaimer this text reflects opinion
rec.sport.hockey	red wings goespel unb patrick walker writes detroit going beat toronto less granted gilmour should get the hart trophy not lemieux just look what gilmour did for toronto when you think toronto who comes mind gilmour andreychuk potvin did mentio gilmour when you think the nhl who comes mind gilmour gretzky mario did mention mario you said gretzky you haven really been following along have you you said gilmour you are true maynard don even think the selection the hart deserves serious discussion this group brainer dvb
rec.sport.hockey	nhl team captains article uupcb freddy ersys edmonton steven kipling freddy ersys edmonton steven kipling writes quoting cire trehguad all cyt michael collingridge writes and while are the subject has captain ever been traded resigned been striped his title during the season any other team captain trivia would appreciated kelly kisio was the captain the rangers when left for san jose ali ali procrastination lemer but not real green conjunction junction columbia university nyc dress that cruel what your function phoenix ctr columbia edu barenaked ladies schoolhouse rock kind animals hug hockey player
rec.sport.hockey	habs late article apr mcgill ccdb ccdb musica mcgill writes quebec dominated habs for first periods and only roy kept this one from being rout although did blow goal canadians showed third but nords were playing dump pull back most the time you notice that nobody the team willing take charge dominant defenceman would nice too bad schneider got hurt reminds chris chelios sometimes speaking chelios wonder serge savard feels like moron for making that trade also wish still had corson rob ramage the ice less useful than gatorade bottle the bench vincent damphousse has decided take vacation apparently have idea why demers playing denis savard the checking line with carbonneau savard skating well and one the only dangerous canadiens quebec zone with the puck too bad nobody front most the time you also notice that the defensive zone not single nordique gets knocked down disgusting also have lebeau getting pasted centre ice wolaninn with reply from the team except yell for penalty dammit denis savard threw the best only montreal hit the night when knocked sundin off balance when denis savard your team enforcer there big trouble someplace hextall made some good saves but really this one was lost first period when nords scored could have had plus another aside from that second goal roy did stand his head the third period least provided something look forward habs won the period imo and guess somebody finally came along smack them couple times the second intermission remind them that game had started hopefully they play that way home roy made the saves ignore that second goal now the team dchhabra stpl ists all those grant fuhr doubters buffalo boston nuff said and did somebody say dale hunter was playoff choker rethink that position
rec.sport.hockey	bruins come boston where the hell are you seven wins row and what choke much rather see the bruins the wales conference finals pitt than buffalo quebec only because would more interesting not that buffalo quebec can put good fight but much more enjoy pasteing the bruins than the devils you have feel for terrerri well maybe the devils will pull out maybe the pens will lose the second round but not hope the bruins are there meet them
rec.sport.hockey	buffalo boston defense article apr alchemy chem utoronto golchowy alchemy chem utoronto gerald olchowy writes article apr ncsu edu delarocq eos ncsu edu derrell emery larocque writes tonight boston the buffalo sabres blanked the boston bruins tonight boston looks like boston can hang this season because buffalo home record awesome this great buffalo fans might get see revenge for last year glad grant fuhr will never over confident after two wins you are takes four wins defeat opponent each tougher obtain than the previous one buffalo off good start fuhr proving the fuhr bashers wrong but boston awfully good team gerald awesome home record not you need remember the game last year the aud like see some playoff games since stuck buffalo but think boston isn giving easy bungle
rec.sport.hockey	whl playoff results monday april kamloops spokane kamloops wins western final matchup kamloops portland tuesday april games necessary wednesday april games necessary thursday april games scheduled friday april regina swift current series kamloops portland series saturday april kamloops portland series sunday april swift current regina series whl playoff scoring leaders april player pts jamie black tacoma andy schneider swift current valeri bure spokane allan egeland tacoma dean mcammond swift current jason krywulak swift current cam danyluk medicine hat todd holt swift current tyler wright swift current mike mathers kamloops jeff friesen regina rick girard swift current whl playoff leading goaltenders april minimum minutes player gaa scott langkow portland milan hnilicka swift current trevor robins brandon steve passmore kamloops mark dawkins red deer randy coulman aries laboratory research assistant department computational science university saskatchewan coulman usask saskatoon
rec.sport.hockey	final regular season individual goalie stats would appreciate someone could volunteer verify the shots goal and save percentage numbers for can put these stats the archive site contact mail you want volunteer here are the individual goalie stats wed apr cst these stats include games and including the sunday previous the date listed above they have been verified against what printed newspaper every tuesday they don print shots and save percentage numbers those are not verified these stats are available mail every weekday and sometimes weekends town and can get late game results just send note you would like receive these stats mail you have any questions comments suggestions let know randy minutes played goals against shutouts gaa goals against average wins losses ties sog shots goal save percentage gaa sog player was byron dafoe har corrie alessio mtl frederick chabot bos mike bales tor felix potvin chi belfour bos john blue chi jim waite pit tom barrasso stl curtis joseph van kay whitmore buf dominik hasek bos andy moog cal jeff reese mtl patrick roy har mike lenarduzzi det vincent riendeau tor daren puppa det tim cheveldae cal mike vernon nyi glenn healy buf grant fuhr nyr john vanbiesbrouck was don beaupre min jon casey van kirk mclean chris terreri mtl andre racicot que stephane fiset phi tommy soderstrom pit ken wregget bos reggie lemelin que ron hextall nyi mark fitzpatrick win bob essensa win jim hrivnak min darcy wakaluk wendell young bergeron craig billington stl guy hebert was rick tabaracci buf tom draper nyr corey hirsch phi dominic roussel nyr mike richter nyi danny lorenz edm bill ranford robb stauber kelly hrudey que jacques cloutier har mario gosselin rick knickle pat jablonski arturs irbe har sean burke edm ron tugnutt ott daniel berthiaume phi stephane beauregard ott peter sidorkiewicz cal andrei trefilov har frank pietrangelo win mike neill wade flaherty jeff hackett brian hayward tor rick wamsley was olaf kolzig ott darrin madeley ott steve weeks david goverde david littman randy coulman aries laboratory research assistant department computational science university saskatchewan coulman usask saskatoon
rec.sport.hockey	final regular season team goalie stats would appreciate someone could volunteer verify the shots goal and save percentage numbers for can put these stats the archive site contact mail you want volunteer here are the team goalie stats wed apr cst these stats include games and including the sunday previous the date listed above they have been verified against what printed newspaper every tuesday they don print shots and save percentage numbers those are not verified you have any questions comments suggestions let know randy minutes played goals against shutouts gaa goals against average wins losses ties sog shots goal save percentage gaa sog player chi belfour chi jim waite chi tor daren puppa tor felix potvin tor grant fuhr tor rick wamsley tor bos mike bales bos john blue bos andy moog bos reggie lemelin bos pit tom barrasso pit ken wregget pit stl curtis joseph stl guy hebert stl van kay whitmore van kirk mclean van det vincent riendeau det tim cheveldae det mtl frederick chabot mtl patrick roy mtl andre racicot mtl cal jeff reese cal mike vernon cal andrei trefilov cal was byron dafoe was rick tabaracci was don beaupre was jim hrivnak was olaf kolzig was min jon casey min darcy wakaluk min buf dominik hasek buf grant fuhr buf daren puppa buf tom draper buf nyi glenn healy nyi mark fitzpatrick nyi danny lorenz nyi que stephane fiset que ron hextall que jacques cloutier que chris terreri craig billington nyr john vanbiesbrouck nyr corey hirsch nyr mike richter nyr phi tommy soderstrom phi dominic roussel phi stephane beauregard phi win bob essensa win jim hrivnak win rick tabaracci win mike neill win wendell young bergeron pat jablonski david littman edm bill ranford edm ron tugnutt edm robb stauber kelly hrudey rick knickle david goverde har corrie alessio har mike lenarduzzi har mario gosselin har sean burke har frank pietrangelo har ott daniel berthiaume ott peter sidorkiewicz ott darrin madeley ott steve weeks ott arturs irbe wade flaherty jeff hackett brian hayward randy coulman aries laboratory research assistant department computational science university saskatchewan coulman usask saskatoon
rec.sport.hockey	don cherry help out here lmarsha cms wayne edu laurie marshall writes don got his nickname grapes but not sure don use coach the boston bruins don know exactly when that was could someone fill this info think that the name grapes came because coach for the bruins the minors used chew grapes keep from getting dehydrated during the games his dog blue may have been named cause liked labatts beer anyone know about that
rec.sport.hockey	grant fuhr leads sabres apr newshub ists dchhabra stpl ists deepak chhabra writes article apr wuecl wustl edu jca cec wustl edu joseph charles achkar writes buffalo the series with boston and the reason grant fuhr fuhr playoff hungry and proving once again why they call him money goaltender fuhr might not one the best goaltenders the league anymore statistically least but proving that can make the big save the right time the leafs should have kept fuhr and probably would have had chance against powerhouse detroit but again where was andreychoke game applauded the sabres for making the deal get fuhr specifically because thought would help them win least one playoff series however don think the leafs can faulted either there nothing say that felix won winning playoff series himself years come agree with joseph felix potvin great goalie besides thought that the leafs could only protect goalie the coming expansion draft then better get rid one good goalie and get good forward return
rec.sport.hockey	radio stations messge mon apr greanias texas mitre org steve greanias wrote not have cable and the nights the caps don play would like tune other games does anyone have list the radio stations which broadcast the games for the nhl teams here are the ones can remember offhand kdka pittsburgh penguins wabc new jersey devils wbbm chicago blackhawks wjm detroit redwings kmox louis blues are the flyers that all can think ted benjamin cards cavs tedb tyrell msfc nasa gov blues vols browns line sig can cramp one art
rec.sport.hockey	 article bigboote wpi edu ching bigwpi wpi edu the logistician writes need all the players wearing the nhl know now only one ray borque for the bruins any help would greatly appreciated thanx pierre turgeon formely the sabres and now the isles wears least did buffalo tom gwitt gwittt alleg edu
rec.sport.hockey	let buffalo article afpiknm wbli isj andrew cmu edu william willis andrew cmu edu says you know never really appreciated them before looks like bob errey ring really sparkles that locker room and everyone else wants one too correct wrong though just through the net not through mail don need mail but wasn boston down buffalo last year boston lost and home and won and buffalo whoever wins game will advance simple that robbie pgh penguins what comes naturally patrick division semi all time record you see now wait for the penguins devils season win streak possibility don you see penguins lead playoff win streak strong resemblance
rec.sport.hockey	pwter forsberg can some give some stats forsrg the world championships sao mail freenet victoria tom moffat victoria canada
rec.sport.hockey	trivia question while watching the penguins devils game last night saw the slash that barrasso took the neck this brought mind the goaltender who had his jugular vein cut skate think was sabre but not positive does anyone remember know his name what has happened him since what about the player whose skate cut the goalie name info has this ever happened before hockey game thanks carol pens
rec.sport.hockey	buffalo sabres article msuinfo msu edu vergolin euler lbs msu edu david vergolini writes buffalo fans red wings fan but amazed how the sabres are beating the bruins there any reason for this grant fuhr mogilny and lafontaine would like hear from you since not know much about the sabres two words grant fuhr tom gwitt gwittt alleg edu
rec.sport.hockey	trivia question article apr sei cmu edu caj sei cmu edu carol jarosz writes while watching the penguins devils game last night saw the slash that barrasso took the neck this brought mind the goaltender who had his jugular vein cut skate think was sabre but not positive does anyone remember know his name what has happened him since what about the player whose skate cut the goalie name info that was clint malarchuk that was very dangerous accident could died right there the ice however has played since but don know where now think still playing but not positive was sabre the time don know who skated into him though has this ever happened before hockey game remember couple seasons before the malarchuk incident borje salming toronto fell down the crease and someone skated into his face that took lot stiches fix thanks carol pens liam toronto they better start going soon
rec.sport.hockey	octopus detroit just side note squid octopi made their way the ice buffalo still don understand why buffalo but maybe lucky btw they shovel them from the ice here using the shovel used scoop the snow the zamboni leaves leaves the ice although blue did give some technical directions its removal motioning with his stick valerie hammerl john would lift pat over the boards grab hammerl acsu buffalo edu his hand and start running around the outside pwpz ubvms buffalo edu faster and faster wanted learn how get that feeling and the only way was learn how skate lafontaine
rec.sport.hockey	let buffalo article ltdi pinn appserv eng sun com mre teal eng sun com mike eisler writes article rap psuvm psu edu robbie rap psuvm psu edu writes article afpiknm wbli isj andrew cmu edu william willis andrew cmu edu says you know never really appreciated them before looks like bob errey ring really sparkles that locker room and everyone else wants one too correct wrong though just through fuhr rings out sparkle errey and doesn bob have rings regardless they have sparkle from the pressbox errey been out couple games with hip injury valerie hammerl john would lift pat over the boards grab hammerl acsu buffalo edu his hand and start running around the outside pwpz ubvms buffalo edu faster and faster wanted learn how get that feeling and the only way was learn how skate lafontaine
rec.sport.hockey	stats does anyone have the player stats for games played until april mauro
rec.sport.hockey	espn don know anyone has posted message like this yet but getting really sick espn showing the last minute hockey game which the score was just tied and then cutting out and saying sorry can show you this have show baseball tonight not even game friggin highlight show gee sure would have been nice see the isles caps overtime live pittsburgh yes pens fan where hockey gets lot coverage can only imagine how caps fan residing texas must feel
rec.sport.hockey	leafs crushed again blues win flames back article apr wuecl wustl edu jca cec wustl edu joseph charles achkar writes article vzhivov cunews vzhivov alfred carleton vladimir zhivov writes the blues led the best goalie the nhl this season curtis joseph shut out the hawks the blues are playing like they did clutch grab shoot the puck out incredibly boring watch but works finally non blues fan agrees that joseph great goalie think should win the vezina this year least share with barrasso who also has been shadowed mario amazing performance too think that joseph has had great year and should considered for the vezina think barrasso and joseph should the two strongest candidates this year don believe all the hype that roy belfour and now potvin receive for their goaltending think that they are great the nets but would rather have curtis tommy fuhr the nets during this years playoffs the big name tenders always seem have strong defense front them and the goaltenders get the most credit would rather face shots game than have rely joseph saving but the goalie going face shots would rather have joseph barrasso facing them jay quebec and know that mclean and several others should mentioned candidates for this years vezina but partial joseph and barrasso this season john huber aka jay penguins stanley cup champions software engineering institute pirates east champions sei mastercraft the only boat for skiing
rec.sport.hockey	espn tell about geoff filinuk filinuk staff dccs upenn edu wrote this comes indirectly from morgani who works the studio for espn hockey some text deleted espn under contractual obligation show baseball and could not broadcast the the hockey game next year espn will introduced baseball fans can watch baseball and hockey fans can watch hockey hadn heard about this new espn when this new network supposed start sounds great long cable offers tom huot huot cray com
rec.sport.hockey	trivia question article apr sei cmu edu caj sei cmu edu carol jarosz writes while watching the penguins devils game last night saw the slash that barrasso took the neck this brought mind the goaltender who had his jugular vein cut skate think was sabre but not positive does anyone remember know his name what has happened him since what about the player whose skate cut the goalie name info has this ever happened before hockey game was clint malarchuk neck cut uwe krupp skate know happened buffalo but can tell you against whom krupp was defending opposing attacker charging the net malarchuk became the fourth goalie behind hasek puppa and draper after suffering from obsessive compulsive disorder been playing san diego for former sabre coach rick dudley krupp now playing for the islanders after the lafontaine turgeon trade what win patrick ferrel qldp ubvms buffalo edu always said there was state university new york buffalo something fundamentally wrong with the universe aka jay walker wwivnet arthur dent
rec.sport.hockey	sabres bruins notes was unlikely improbable for the bruins was the stuff nightmares for the sabres was taste heaven for the first time since the sabres have won the first three games series last time was three games none victory best five against the canadiens takes little more work this time the sabres seem ready put the extra work the heels shutout one that took away boston home ice advantage the sabres came back with four three overtime win wasn easy wasn always pretty still worked john blue got the nod for boston supplanting andy moog starting goaltender moog was pulled midway through game tuesday buffalo started with goal mogilny his fourth the playoffs the powerplay with boston don sweeney and gord roberts the box lafontaine and hawerchuk had the assists goal number two was khmylev first the playoffs pretty goal scored when the sabres stole the puck and passed open and waiting khmylev smehlik and hannan assisted determined not shut out boston tallied shot ray bourque the powerplay with colin patterson and bob sweeney both the box period two was scoreless split penalties between the two clubs the third saw boston smolinski get his first courtesy oates buffalo resecured the lead two minutes later from former bruin bob sweeney khmylev and carney neely tied the game the way through the third sending into overtime last year overtime meant bruin win last night spelled sweet revenge buffalo scored with ray bourque the penalty box tip khmylev hawerchuk and lafontaine minute into overtime both teams finished with shots power play conversions boston buffalo referee rob shick comments shick pocketed the whistle the third allowing lot clutching and grabbing buffalo penalty killing unit was fantastic again mogilny was checking granted missed once and instead flung his body into the boards but checking like this novel idea mogilny the crowd was unbelievable don think ever heard crowd that loud the aud for sabres game remember was only five when they played for the cup don remember and one took the games doug bodger postgame interview noted that tried say something hawerchuk but the crowd was too loud even though was shouting didn seem matter most the sabres and even muckler said was great yuri khmylev didn seem realize that was the game third star and didn skate out when his name was called sweeney and fuhr each were out before yuri made his appearance sans jersey when asked interview later whether knew how big goal that was responed yes was through interpreter and said more than that even more than the interpreter said but digress the interviewer seemed think just because doesn speak english must not understand playoffs huh valerie hammerl john would lift pat over the boards grab hammerl acsu buffalo edu his hand and start running around the outside pwpz ubvms buffalo edu faster and faster wanted learn how get that feeling and the only way was learn how skate lafontaine
rec.sport.hockey	montreal versue quebec article msuinfo msu edu vergolin euler lbs msu edu david vergolini writes did anyone see the montreal quebec game yesterday was tight right down the last second the third period the overtime roy and hextall played like they were gods montreal won they deserved after getting their first goal overtime waved off because the puck was hit with high stick their second goal overtime was also replayed but could not tell was the montreal player who kicked the puck definitely was not directed stick anyways montreal back into the series dave vergolini michigan state university vergolin euler lbs msu edu the replay clearly showed that the winning goal for montreal went off the skate the quebec defenceman who was checking kirk muller front hextall
rec.sport.hockey	sharks jack feirerra was sharks kingston fired gak wrs com richard stueven writes the other hand hard pressed think any other real mistakes fereirra made imagine indeed but then again have the benefit hindsight well the jettison for youth fast strategy was his also hindsight didn work all that well but think was more because left the sharks tightrope without net not that was inherently flawed was the injuries that caused fall let say that the view the sharks upper management the attempt trade kisio was major factor the decision fire feirerra from all indications wasn the major factor but the last straw there were personality conflicts among shark management and disagreements over how personnel were going handled not just who was being traded kept but who was being sent what ferriera did rumors are right was not always what the folks behind the bench wanted needed inclined take exactly the opposite view they should have kept him obviously the luckiest man hockey think they kept ferriera they would have lost some their other management staff depending which sources you trust might have lost grillo and lombardi and murdoch over the summer frankly want keep those three may well ahve also lost kingston which course now moot point the sharks have been building organizational staff that highly consensual and cooperative ferriera wanted run things his way there were conflicts ferriera lost that says nothing about his skills accomplishments that level lot personality and politics think did some good things for the sharks but that never fit shark person hope succeeds beyond his wildest dreams down anaheim too because good for hockey but want the ducks doormats for couple years the sharks succeeed first chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd
rec.sport.hockey	leafs wings agree rob shick sucks big time did the same thing last night game between boston buffalo
rec.sport.hockey	potvin his stick nothing wrong with what felix did the only problem was that didn dino hard enough next time felix aim for the ankles leafs
rec.sport.hockey	buffalo sabres quoting bill gregory all hey saw that game thought the sabres looked better that you described boston that looked weak and unsure themselves even big they bruins win the third game what that going prove they lucky well now the sabres are games and its bad that boston isn putting more fight that could have been the best series the playoffs think boston will come out smoking the next two games and that buffalo will end the series game six back buffalo and say how about those islanders they are the capitals and will probably win the series only clobbered the penguins who should eliminate the devils the next game cannot see sad say anyone beating the penguins this year again and they will take cup afraid well talk later steve find out girl faults praise her her girl friends blue wave qwk
rec.sport.hockey	buffalo boston defense article tgh lfi hsdndev harvard edu nhmas gauss med harvard edu mark shneyder writes harry and his buttkisser milbury will never admit that they screwed major way when they brought one the dumbest people the business brian sutter sutter playoff record the head coach louis speaks for itself the blues really have chance advance the second round this year grant fuhr has done this lot better coaches than brian sutter gerald
rec.sport.hockey	hockey guest spots article apr mcgill jbe jbe musicb mcgill writes manon rheaume was with letterman sept her english was terrible that letterman took cheap shots her although the shots were funny they were uncalled for well the contrary thought dave was rather taken with her and her accent ockey passion gerald
rec.sport.hockey	wjr boston john girash writes for all those red wings fans boston thought letcha know that being desperate for news the game tried get wjr walkman and succeeded was night about reception got better got you can get wjr long way away the problem that because those well known and beloved contractual obligations wjr will doing tiger baseball instead the wings playoff games for probably half the games the wings could play for this series know tonight game and believe games and necessay will bumped ron and one major goals leave the next president new set things worry about getting bored reading the same problems the paper decade after decade want people have deal with new problems president bill clinton
rec.sport.hockey	sabre fans yes yes can see now all those sabre fans finally taking their sabre sweaters out the moth balls and proudly wearing them after years playoff frustration and being games nil guess pretty good bet but there has not been team that has come back from deficit since could this the year don throw out the moth balls yet roy
rec.sport.hockey	wings news and playoff thoughts wrote feel the jury still out tim cheveldae playoff goalie was average his first playoffs last year had horrible start but played great the last ten games after was benched his gaa even with the horrible start was last year this year think going play very well has detroit going win the cup wasn sharp game but didn have thought looked pretty good yesterday charles hubbert writes great write the wings toronto series thus far agree with just about everything that you said but chevy shouldn have let the shot from the right point first goal mikorov think other than that the wings are looking good and chevy holding his own not great but maybe chevy has let soft goals far but they all didn matter however his recent history has been inconsistant play but comes big when counts the score was think when the goal you mentioned was scored the third period when looked like toronto was coming back chevy was exceptional can see him barraso style playoff goalie inconsistant when there nothing the line but comes big when really needed guess both find out ron and one major goals leave the next president new set things worry about getting bored reading the same problems the paper decade after decade want people have deal with new problems president bill clinton
rec.sport.hockey	hockey guest spots article rec sport hockey sclark epas utoronto susan clark asks guys looking answe bit trivia what hockeplayers have appeared major talk shows letterman carson leno arsenio etc shows national nature include canadian equivalents you can think any this can include nhl olympic and world champion ship players pretty sure seen gretzky and lemieux but was wondering there were any others not sure about the celebrated players the game but tod hartje who played for harvard college and then went play the ahl initially for moncton and currently for providence thanks daryl turner for the update appeared david letterman show about two years ago now tod has the distinction being the first american born player and play the former soviet union this was arranged jets mike smith while tod was playing moncton about the time all those european players were coming over north america play the nhl tod spent year playing russia and played with against some the russian players who have just entered the nhl the last two years wrote book his experiences called behind the red line check out and appeared the letterman show talk about them mike note hope have facts straight has been year since read tod book wanted dig the book out double check but realized lent friend and hasn returned the book yet just wait til get hold him
rec.sport.hockey	montreal versue quebec article msuinfo msu edu vergolin euler lbs msu edu david vergolini wrote did anyone see the montreal quebec game yesterday was tight right down the last second the third period the overtime roy and hextall played like they were gods montreal won they deserved after getting their first goal overtime waved off because the puck was hit with high stick their second goal overtime was also replayed but could not tell was the montreal player who kicked the puck definitely was not directed stick anyways montreal back into the series the overhead replay pretty clearly showed that was the quebec defender who deflected the puck the play officials did not take nearly much time make this call they did for the first non goal seemed pretty non controversial agree that was great game good see roy and damphousse back into form hopefully the sign good things come paul valin tel bell northern research ltd email pavalin bnr box station ottawa ontario canada only opinions
rec.sport.hockey	bowman needs credit during the first three games the pens devils series have been impressed time and time again the pure talent the pens jagr maceachern and barrasso have been especially fun watch but one element this team which goes unnoticed seems scotty bowman despite brooks lunatic comments and despite the devils line changing adantage last night game bowman has been able keep his cool and keep the devils the dark granted the hell dwellers had the pens bottled for while last night but bowman was eventually able configure his line get the job done his ability throw out new looks and strategies moments notice incredible bowman seems have terrific ability reading his players individual basis last night for instance realized that the speed jagr straka and maceachern was throwing the devils off balance result straka received many more shifts than average jagr played almost the entire game was always the puck and maceachern scored goal while complementing jagr many times throughout the night his ability commit one player crucial situations commendable especially when coach such talented team might simply rely the overall talent dominate and bring about success while one can replace the genius and optimism badger bob johnson bowman his own way has made himself permanent though not clearly seen mark pittsburgh
rec.sport.hockey	where roger really feel the need for knowledgable hockey observer explain this year playoffs mean the obviously superior toronto team with the best center and the best goalie the league keeps losing what gives stand all the misstatements that made vice president dan quayle sam donaldson too nick duncan duncan mprgate mpr
rec.sport.hockey	nhl playoff results for games played nhl playoff results for conference semi finals best seven patrick adams norris smythe buf leads stl leads win pit leads bos chi van leads nyi leads mon tor tied was que leads det leads cal quebec nordiques leads series montreal canadiens period que sundin gusarov period mon muller damphousse bellows period none overtime mon damphousse bellows desjardins powerplay opportunities nordiques canadiens shots goal nordiques canadiens quebec nordiques hextall shots saves montreal canadiens roy shots saves att pittsburgh penguins leads series new jersey devils period njd guerin pit mceachern straka period njd holik stevens period pit lemieux murphy ramsey pit taglianetti loney tippett pit murphy francis tocchet njd semak zelepukin powerplay opportunities penguins devils shots goal penguins devils pittsburgh penguins barrasso shots saves new jersey devils billington shots saves att boston bruins buffalo sabres leads series period buf mogilny lafontaine hawerchuk buf khmylev smehlik hannan bos bourque oates donato period none period bos smolinski oates buf sweeney khmylev carney bos neely oates shaw overtime buf khmylev hawerchuk lafontaine powerplay opportunities bruins sabres shots goal bruins sabres boston bruins blue shots saves buffalo sabres fuhr shots saves att washington capitals new york islanders leads series period nyi thomas was burridge may cavallini period was carpenter ridley bondra period was elynuik carpenter ridley nyi thomas turgeon king nyi turgeon thomas hogue overtime nyi ferraro hogue flatley powerplay opportunities capitals islanders shots goal capitals islanders washington capitals tabaracci shots saves new york islanders healy shots saves att spike
rec.sport.hockey	potvin and his stick article sscl uwo sscl uwo writes dino getting shots front the net should expect this playoff hockey where anything goes you lose one game the regular season and not bad you lose game the playoffs and difficult thing overcome watched hockey and played too for number years and haven seen one post season game where the forward front the net has not finished without any bruises the back his leg the leafs are not doing good job clearing the net and potvin has been forced take matters into his own hands remember when cicarelli used play for the london knights ohl always was nuisance front the net and the goalies took exception this also complained this morning paper about what happened last night but lot bellyaching his team and complains about being whacked wonder what would happen tried the same thing front billy smith younger ron hextall seems dino would need two artifical legs dino should take part the game and thank his lucky stars that the playoffs and has good chance the finals well agree that you going stand front the net that you should expect get hit and hacked general you should expect finish the game with some bruises however there fine line between hacking guy causing some pain and discomfort and blatantly attempting injure another player felix potvin imo crossed that line wednesday that two hander ciccarelli was way out line lost lot respect for potvin because that showed immaturity did not slash ciccarelli simply try remove him from the slot area legal position for dino instead slashed attempt injure was out shear frustration leaf supporter just supporter not leaf fan really was very disappointed you right mentioning billy smith and ron hextall least his philly days they both crossed that same line times and for that reason many fans and players disliked them that why their names always comes examples when talk about these issues let hope that felix doesn that again hate see anyone even dino although admit don like him very much get seriously hurt from such careless but intentional use the stick gary
rec.sport.hockey	trivia question article bqn acsu buffalo edu qldp ubvmsd buffalo edu real kneebiter writes article apr sei cmu edu caj sei cmu edu carol jarosz writes while watching the penguins devils game last night saw the slash that barrasso took the neck this brought mind the goaltender who had his jugular vein cut skate think was sabre but not positive does anyone remember know his name what has happened him since what about the player whose skate cut the goalie name info has this ever happened before hockey game was clint malarchuk neck cut uwe krupp skate know happened buffalo but can tell you against whom krupp was defending opposing attacker charging the net was not krupp skate krupp was defending against steve tuttle the blues they both sort tripped and fell toward malarchuk and tuttle skate came perilously close cutting but actually just missed the jugular malarchuk immediately fell the ice hands his neck blood the ice malarchuk became the fourth goalie behind hasek puppa and draper after suffering from obsessive compulsive disorder been playing san diego for former sabre coach rick dudley been suffering from for over decade just wasn diagnosed for until didn sleep for ten days and decided have some alcohol help him sleep unfortunately just been put ulcer medicine few days earlier amazing lasted long did ocd sufferers stop distinguishing the line between reality and imagination fail accept that something they checked now for example ocd sufferrer can wash his hands over and over and still think they dirty might check the oven ten times sure turned off might see movie about something and automatically assume the situation the same for his own life malarchuk has dramatically decreased the medicine takes but still needs went off this past winter and had bad ocd episode and think was the hospital for couple days felt slowed his reflexes tried without any event alive and well and living san diego while playing with the gulls ihl krupp now playing for the islanders after the lafontaine turgeon trade and tuttle longer with the blues but don know where possibly the ihl but you best ask blues fan valerie hammerl john would lift pat over the boards grab hammerl acsu buffalo edu his hand and start running around the outside pwpz ubvms buffalo edu faster and faster wanted learn how get that feeling and the only way was learn how skate lafontaine
rec.sport.hockey	oilers for sale here one from the mill the oilers might move hamilton where porklington can get free deal given what labour relations and puck has been like would sigh relief this way can can both elements dave shariff yadallee econ math alberta yadalle amisk ualberta god save the queen god bless all remember jesus saves lives from eternal damnation newfoundland keep good old clyde vote liberal
rec.sport.hockey	trivia question article apr sei cmu edu caj sei cmu edu carol jarosz writes while watching the penguins devils game last night saw the slash that barrasso took the neck this brought mind the goaltender who had his jugular vein cut skate think was sabre but not positive does anyone remember know his name what has happened him since what about the player whose skate cut the goalie name info has this ever happened before hockey game thanks carol pens that would clint malarchuck was speculated the time that the injury was serious that had been playing the other end the rink the time was playing the same end the ambulence parked never would have survived ditto were playing anything other than league with ambulance standby you seen video tape the incident amazing how much blood there was was literally spurting out all over the ice clint grabbed his neck and watched the puddle horror amazingly enough made full recovery and played again the nhl was getting years the time the incident anyway and didn play for too long afterward some people speculated that just couldn get himself back together after the incident and think had bunch other personal problems dogging him afterward did eventually get back form and played another year after that and then believe retired anyone else carol boudreau the terminator boudreau athena mit edu flames rock the kings
rec.sport.hockey	way ferraro the isles picked one hell time get their first win all year after being down after periods the caps seemed have the game hand playing steady defense and getting great goaltending from tabaracci the isles power play philosophy continues dump and chase which except for boardaholics like flatley doesn work against the caps hope realizes this they have too many talented finesse players why not carry the puck and set last night game any omen the isles could their way that ole championship form coming from behind late game advice the caps pounce those healy rebounds flatley showed alot heart playing the last period and overtime despite almost swollen shut left eye injury suffered the hands dale hunter ray ferraro has arrived just time for the playoffs showing the fiesty hustle that islander fans remember from italian from the past john tonelli was tonelli who won similar game against the pens game the playoffs the isles scored two late third period goals send the game into tied tonelli scored the game winner send the isles the next round the isles have lacked this tenacity for years but perhaps its back was good see the coliseum packed just like the ole days good luck the isles the rest the way john scialdone scialdone nssdca gsfc nasa gov and the home the brave jerry garcia bob weir vince welnick april opening day candlestick park
rec.sport.hockey	wings will win article vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy graca writes gballent vancouver uvic greg ballentine writes lots debate about the virtues bryan murray pat quinn deleted randy graca seems think murray the best the league think quinn one several who are better plus his team quinn has improved much greater amount than detroit since took over with them how you figure both vancouver and detroit did the same thing last year they both won their division they had close the same number points they both went down the first round the playoffs before finally escaping games and they both got knocked out the second round teams they should have been able beat with less talent specifically remember correctly third place teams how does this make vancouver more improved further not mistaken the wings had more points than vancouver the end this season albeit not many when quinn took over vancouver several years ago not last year they regularily missed the playoffs can recall they missed the playoffs the year before his hiring but they probably did quinn has improved the team from non playoff calibre serious contender when murray took over detroit the were about team that was contender win the norris division and possibly even stanley cup contender quinn has improved his team more than murray has since taking over quinn one example better than murray gregmeister
rec.sport.hockey	habs win habs win article apr mcgill jbe jbe musicb mcgill writes yahooooooooooooooooooooo what game finally beat those diques and the habs dominated this game and especially they finally started going the net see what happens when you create some traffic muller deserves full marks what player and damphousse finally started skating roy thankyouthankyouthankyou was excellent did you see that third period save young and the defense was taking out quebec players the zone anybody else wonder hextall will feel like dweeb when finds out that the winning goal went off his own man skate whatta suck although playing really well life doesn get better than this sure does sunday when the are golfing and the habs are tied you see what mean nick dchhabra stpl ists
rec.sport.hockey	bowman needs credit article vru wbna andrew cmu edu matthew keating andrew cmu edu writes during the first three games the pens devils series have been impressed time and time again the pure talent the pens jagr maceachern and barrasso have been especially fun watch but one element this team which goes unnoticed seems scotty bowman bowman the hockey hall fame coach already and unlike gil stein didn get their stacking the board directors while one can replace the genius and optimism badger bob johnson bowman his own way has made himself permanent though not clearly seen mark pittsburgh bowman the genius johnson isn bowman great coach johnson very good one however bowman really not modern coach and patrick solution having him only run the team game days and delegate most the day day responsibity the assistants shrewd managerial decision patrick part gerald
rec.sport.hockey	where are all the bruins fans article rap psuvm psu edu rap psuvm psu edu robbie writes just wondering where all the bruins fans are mean they woofed with about posts during the regular season saying that their fave team was going kick everyone the playoffs and win the stanley really seem remember this year woofers consisting mainly yourself and roger boston fans were relatively quiet cup while see nothing wrong with little ranting and raving just curious why all the boston faithful have stopped posting mean haven even see just one little boston fan post cept for the bruins fans that aren cocky guess the concept fan who not cocky something you couldn possible understand but don know sure like see where all those bruins fans are robbie streakers what comes naturally patrick division semi pgh penguins you see now wait for the penguins devils stanley possibility don you see penguins lead cup champions strong resemblance nah doubt you really would you just being provocative sob usual with large stick your but course mean that the nicest way and just how much bragging did you wobbie after umass beat your quakers btw congratulations should the sabres they are playing more diciplined and with more will win they deserve dan dan vicorp com
rec.sport.hockey	leafs crushed again blues win flames back jca cec wustl edu joseph charles achkar writes article vzhivov cunews vzhivov alfred carleton vladimir zhivov writes joseph shut out the hawks the blues are playing like they did clutch grab shoot the puck out incredibly boring watch but works road agree very boring you not blues fan but the blues played two perfect road games not boring right more likely cause have stroke had listen game two the blackhawk station and don think could take another call and joseph makes spectacular saaaaaave now blues fan but don want them play like they played game two sure the result was fine but the blues match very well with the hawks they really don need treat them like the flames don need monday night miracle have chance beat chicago the blues can talent least over the hawks rich blues joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	espn tell about previous article huot cray com tom huot says geoff filinuk filinuk staff dccs upenn edu wrote this comes indirectly from morgani who works the studio for espn hockey some text deleted espn under contractual obligation show baseball and could not broadcast the the hockey game next year espn will introduced baseball fans can watch baseball and hockey fans can watch hockey hadn heard about this new espn when this new network supposed start sounds great long cable offers the usa today says late this year the question will hockey moved espn permenantly will where they have game the week espn and have bunch other games espn mike cornell there are great many people the country today who mac cwru edu through fault their own are sane monty python let flyers stanley cup brain hurts gumby
rec.sport.hockey	pens fans reactions article apr sei cmu edu sad sei cmu edu susan dart writes amongst penguins fans there seems inner calm that never experienced before this year with the pens the players and the fans have much confidence the team this year savoring every game and saving our energy for the stanley cup that not inner calm boredom and being spoiled the arena been quiet church many nights this year too many just take winning for granted been seemingly forever since the team lost and forgotten what like feel real excitement and surprise victory while glad have the pens doing well some ways was better high back when the pens beat the bruins two years ago and the rangers last year too much good thing not always good for you rick
rec.sport.hockey	lemieux getting the hart jeez hope not article apr unbvm csd unb unb patrick walker writes much mindless drivel deleted sorry ramble you can see hate mario pat walker unb question you canadian folk this university new brunswick branch campus the western business school seems like the same sort rectal appendage belongs both them rick
rec.sport.hockey	oilers for sale article yadalle cab yadalle ualberta yadallee dave writes here one from the mill the oilers might move hamilton where porklington can get free deal the probability that the oilers are not going anywhere pocklington has chosen this moment make his last stand because the moment maximum advantage the provincial government months away from provincial election the moment when has maximum power convince northlands give him better arena deal better purchase price and before the nhl new collective agreement with the players which might involve some enhanced revenue sharing pocklington many things stupid not one them can dictate terms because other cities will pay his price edmonton doesn edmonton has already fucked its international airport and surrendered supremacy calgary and over the next few years edmonton going take hard hit from government cutbacks will screw itself beyond recogniton manages find way lose its hockey team too because northlands wants continue use the oilers subsidize horse racing however this case about the long term financial viability the oilers the fact that pocklington basically right regardless who owns the team and right provoke the crisis now before the team accumulates millions dollars losses becomes habitually uncompetitive because lack money sather has done his job the oilers are poised competitive again very soon strachan one the most knowledgeble hockey writers canada post mortem the oilers season the globe and mail recently agrees with gerald
rec.sport.hockey	nhl alltime scoring leaders all time nhl leading goal scorers denotes active player gordie howe det hfd wayne gretzky edm wonder how many more years will take gretz beat this one mike
rec.sport.hockey	espn espn pisses you off call them they respond calls last night called when they said they were cutting baseball and couldn see the sudden death overtime for the buffalo game apparently they received enough calls they waited for the overtime finish before cutting away their phone number susan dart
rec.sport.hockey	wings news and playoff thoughts article prv msuinfo msu edu twork egr msu edu michael twork writes roots detroit would valuable asset the wings and perhaps the rangers could get zombo return wake and smell the norris rick zombo was traded the blues for vince riendo last season mike sorry mike what defensemen would the wings willing give for beezer
rec.sport.hockey	sabres bruins article lte tcinn appserv eng sun com mre teal eng sun com mike eisler writes not buffalo fan but could get their bandwagon they win welcome aboard and since haven seen this yet this year but all preceding years let say not
rec.sport.hockey	trivia question article apr sei cmu edu caj sei cmu edu carol jarosz writes while watching the penguins devils game last night saw the slash that barrasso took the neck this brought mind the goaltender who had his jugular vein cut skate think was sabre but not positive does anyone remember know his name clint malarchuk what has happened him since assigned san diego gulls the being the season believe what about the player whose skate cut the goalie name info was uwe krupp and blues player though uwe skate beleive cut clint has since traded the isles the lafontaine deal has this ever happened before hockey game this the only time know tom gwitt gwittt alleg edu sabres
rec.sport.hockey	wings will win gballent hudson uvic greg ballentine writes article vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy graca writes gballent vancouver uvic greg ballentine writes stuff deleted when quinn took over vancouver several years ago not last year they regularily missed the playoffs can recall they missed the playoffs the year before his hiring but they probably did quinn has improved the team from non playoff calibre serious contender when murray took over detroit the were about team that was contender win the norris division and possibly even stanley cup contender the last year before bryan murray took over the wings did not make the playoffs while they had been considered possible contender when jacques demers first arrived his last two years they were respectively embarrassed the first round chicago and then failed make the playoffs time might add when there were only five teams the norris true that vancouver did not make the playoffs for many year before quinn came but those years the smythe division was lot mean lot tougher division than the norris also known the snorris division vancouver had play edmonton and calgary both very legitimate stanley cup contenders eight times year while detroit got play such powerhouses toronto and minnesota now edmonton hardly even force the league and the smythe even has the mighty san jose sharks while over this same period time which vancouver was improving was everybody the norris except louis detroit had improve just keep with the competition their division they had improve lot get better than their competition the norris bryan murray inherited team with very little talent for really good players they had yzerman burr and probert and that was about and doubt some will dispute whether burr and probert were that good the rest were either very green rookies washed veterans the only reason they got far they did the years before murray came was due the coaching demers who least first got every last ounce effort possible out his team then even his coaching began degrade quinn has improved his team more than murray has since taking over quinn one example better than murray there are number reasons why detroit wasn bad shape standings wise when murray took over vanc was when quinn took over some which outlined above but murray did not have any better personnel work with the outset than did quinn with the exception yzerman and one player cannot alone make team into stanley cup contender sure everyone reading this will agree able see better which team really the most improved when they face each other the conference final assuming they don get knocked out like last year gregmeister randy
rec.sport.hockey	sports broadcasting curious known there are any professional sports teams whose games are regularly broadcast station the only one aware wysp philadelphia who carries the eagles games you respond will summarize for the list bruce slutsky slutsky tesla njit edu
rec.sport.hockey	coverage nhl blame the coverage the playoffs fucking ridicules overtime time games that are not shown what the hell kind shit this that would have happened the flyers they were the damn playoffs begin with while was watching would have gone throught the roof however everybody getting pissed off espn but they are not the ones blame they have prior contracts that they just can simply break whenever they want the blame when they signed the deal with espn they had know this they had know shit like this would happen since they wouldn have complete priority the should feeling the heat that being thrown espn how can the this its fans how dare they are the ones that make the damn league exist and they can even televise complete playoff games for watch they more write about this the more pissed off get must let the know that expect little better than this anybody out there knows how about doing this let and everybody else know well had get that off chest and while mario the michael jordan hockey all that fucker has fall the ice and the closet guy him gets least last night the game between and pitt was being pushed while skating across the front the goal while trying get shot off the guy him was doing good job got off weak shot but then decided fall the ice then the fucking ref van helloamend called the guy for holding they replayed the play and roomate who clueless about hockey wanted know what the guy did get call because was fucking obvious the player had both hands his stick and did not trip him simple mario gets touched falls the ice automatic but the thing that really pissed off pitt scored the goal don remember the resulting and eventually won his diving calls makes huge difference the outcome game they gotta stop the damn holding and interference that fucking obvious that not hockey allows inferior players bring down the level the better players and allows inferior teams beat better ones this has pissed off for many years now and has improved somewhat however during the playoffs and periods the damn refs must misplace their balls because they sure don make any calls that show that they got any all agreeing disagreeing replies are welcomed steve
rec.sport.hockey	div and conf names article apr ramsey laurentian maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes there are several problems with the way the game being presented the fans feel that geographical names would enhance regional loyalties more than names honouring personages think compromise would work namely honouring personages conference names and using geographical references the divisional names although still not think the move will draw fans the game imo cosmetic change that bettman and the owners hope will have effect and doesn say much for the mentality anybody works either another thing that bothers the points system percentages used the other major sports are clearly more informative when look the nhl standings the first thing have make quick calculation account for games hand which almost always the case some will object percentages claiming perhaps that americanization the sport surprise agree totally the points system fine everybody all times has played the same number games since this almost never the case winning percentage the way don particularly care american thing either works dchhabra stpl ists
rec.sport.hockey	bleep bruins lose bleep bleep bleep the bruins lost again can stand aside from frustrated ravings must give buffalo credit they are making good most their scoring opportunities and are playing great defense boston players can seem get control the puck anywhere near the buffalo net except for rare occasions the buffalo defense also doing excellent job clearing away rebounds fuhr playing great when the big save needed but also getting plenty help boston has been playing rather well better than would indicated the series score but lacking that extra drive the earlier part the game result boston keeps leaving the ice the end the period goals down this must stop boston have any hope winning single game the outlook for the bruin advancement the second round are quite bleak imho the bruins need score first they can that they have excellent chance winning since they have outplayed the sabres the and periods the scary thing that going grad school buffalo next year never cheer for the sabres you can convert mtm mike mosscrop die hard bruins fan dept chemistry umass lowell mosscropm woods ulowell edu
rec.sport.hockey	oilers for sale article yadalle cab yadalle ualberta yadallee dave writes here one from the mill the oilers might move hamilton where porklington can get free deal given what labour relations and puck has been like would sigh relief heard yesterday that pocklington was talking with folks copps that afternoon yesterday valerie hammerl john would lift pat over the boards grab hammerl acsu buffalo edu his hand and start running around the outside pwpz ubvms buffalo edu faster and faster wanted learn how get that feeling and the only way was learn how skate lafontaine
rec.sport.hockey	sharks kingston fired apr iscnvx lmsc lockheed com spiegel sgi msd lmsc lockheed com mark spiegel writes article apr csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu nelson writes mcgill hammond johan garpenlov would you really rather have those two instead johan your logic then you enjoy having falloon and ozolinsh injured reserve falloon was hurt clean check just fell poorly same with wilson don know about ozolinsh judo coach would more for the sharks injury situation than bob probert actually judo jitsu coach could help add really interesting wrinkle anyone game archer
rec.sport.hockey	buffalo boston defense article tgh lfi hsdndev harvard edu nhmas gauss med harvard edu mark shneyder says the fat lady about hit the first note okay how about deficits the chances for comeback are now less that based game playoff format actually that based the nhl history games the statstical odds winning one straight game two straight games three straight games straight games the odds the penguins winning straight games the playoffs was course this doesn include weighted average but the pens beating the devils straight weaker team along with beating the rangers straight much stronger team has made the act balanced out that about right for boston the odds winning are probably closer with weighted average since buffalo record isn good and boston has stronger team enough about qba probabilities though just goes prove anything possible you integrate that debbie gibson who you think gets the start game three hope going blue the team can rally around him maybe moog can too moog gets about out for his performance from give blue starts fuhr has been too tough buffalo caught hot goaltender just time mean after all buffalo wins losses their last harry sinden appearance outside dressing room after game was pathetic site said something really retarded cover sutter behind this game not about winning losing harry check the very frustrating lose and you gotta say something actually not about winning losing how you play the game but when the competition magnified this level the people only care about who wins loses schedule your team the playoffs and about long summer vacation sunday morning think buffalo will win not like boston getting blown away they lost games with different bounce they could easily harry and his buttkisser milbury will never admit that they screwed major way when they brought one the dumbest people the business brian sutter sutter playoff record the head coach louis speaks for itself the blues really have chance advance the second round this year good point here chicago deep trouble tonight the hawks have bad past history winning the division and losing early when they don finish they okay robbie streakers what comes naturally patrick division semi pgh penguins you see now wait for the penguins devils stanley possibility don you see penguins lead cup champions strong resemblance
rec.sport.hockey	where are all the bruins fans article apr vicorp com dan vicorp com dan gauthier says even see just one little boston fan post cept for the bruins fans that aren cocky guess the concept fan who not cocky something you couldn possible understand sig has nothing with cockiness what you put your sig has nothing with your article learned back the fall the hard way nah doubt you really would you just being provocative sob usual with large stick your but course mean that the you mean butt don you not but nicest way sure you what and just how much bragging did you wobbie after umass beat your quakers two points one what does have with hockey secondly umass beat quakers hello earth here are you responding not the atlantic whatever you wanna call the big now the was too weak for lady lions they had more challenging conference didn pay off the big east showed them thing too but still posted regular basis and tracked all the women scores with reviews throughout the tournament wasn reason stop posting btw congratulations should the sabres they are playing more not over yet anyone has chance come back games think boston can but still see buffalo winning diciplined and with more will win they deserve agreed they playing tremendous hockey right now congatualtions three straight buffalo could very easily boston but buffalo has come tough and little luck you never see penalty that doesn have both sides involved playoff game never never never robbie streakers what comes naturally patrick division semi pgh penguins you see now wait for the penguins devils stanley possibility don you see penguins lead cup champions strong resemblance
rec.sport.hockey	espn article apr sei cmu edu sad sei cmu edu susan dart writes espn pisses you off call them they respond calls last night called when they said they were cutting baseball and couldn see the sudden death overtime for the buffalo game apparently they received enough calls they waited for the overtime finish before cutting away their phone number susan dart well think whenever espn covers the game they wonderful job but what don understand that they cut the just show some stupid baseball news which not important all then waited for the scores comeon sportscenter but they talk about baseball basketball and football then they showed penguine highlight and went back stupid basketball finally they showed highlight the goal but that was like sec think they should give more attention nhl during the playoffs then talking about boring basketball games guess nhl fault too for leaving espn hope things improve next season cobra
rec.sport.hockey	ghost from sweeney past wow this guy seems out prove something his old team boston which sweeney you ask well course bob sweeney the one that boston let buffalo get hold they still have sweeneys which makes things slightly confusing game winner game and another big goal seconds after fuhr made point blank saves this why grant has rings put buffalo ahead the yes neely countered minute later but hadn this course buffalo going ahead after being tied and shutting down another few great scoring opportunities think boston would have notched their first win the series well the sabres haven made the end this series yet but certainly feel they got boston right were they want them actually they got them position that neither buffalo nor boston felt that would come about one more astronomical game fuhr few more heroics the rest the team this team sport afterall and think borque neely jouneau and company are gonna swinging new stick weather perfect for golf season real soon not gonna waiger anything this because seen some really strange things happen both pro and college hockey talking about golf was that hockey swing golf swing baseball swing that hawerchuck used the last shot the game that khmylev deflected for the big one the whole all minute was tesiment buffalo ability really persistent and grind out the end something they weren necessarily the regular season the sabres pushed hard and forced borque blatently take down bodger the opening seconds don normally like penalties being called such ultra critical points but this was blatent finally the sabres won faceoff they weren that hot this dept the rest the game when lafontaine scooped the puck times when hawerchuck took his shot quite boomer but blue stopped this one took few steps over get his own rebound and slapped again without setting didn realize went until the announcer started screaming they score they score the best was seeing lafontaine jumping and down skating little bit jumping some more and then skating over brad may who jumped doug mckee mckee buffalo edu
rec.sport.hockey	don cherry new pens annoucer article wiuy cmu edu lli cmu edu lori iannamico writes don cherry announcing penguins games yeah and quote pgh goofy mayor the queen sheba well your majesty couldn you just picture cherry starts doing his first post game interview with barrasso tommy gives him that little look like somebody crapped his shoe and then proceeds give don tonsilectomy with his sher wood now that you could put pay per view hope you had good laugh george george pandelios internet gjp sei cmu edu software engineering institute usenet sei gjp fifth avenue voice pittsburgh fax disclaimer these opinions are own and not reflect those the software engineering institute its sponsors customers clients affiliates carnegie mellon university fact any resemblence these opinions any individual living dead fictional real purely coincidental there
rec.sport.hockey	goalie masks article sqz acsu buffalo edu hammerl acsu buffalo edu valerie hammerl writes and give fuhr new one honourable mention although haven seen closely yet looked good from distance this the new buffalo one the second since been with the sabres recall price tag over just for the paint job that mask and total price almost ouch yeah the second one and believe that price too been trying get good look the bruin sabre telecasts and wow does ever look good whoever did that paint job knew what they were doing and given fuhr play since got bet the bruins are wishing didn have
rec.sport.hockey	trivia question caj sei cmu edu carol jarosz writes while watching the penguins devils game last night saw the slash that barrasso took the neck this brought mind the goaltender who had his jugular vein cut skate think was sabre but not positive does anyone remember know his name what has happened him since what about the player whose skate cut the goalie name info has this ever happened before hockey game thanks carol pens remember reading article reader digest many moons ago about similar incident during minor leaque game player neck was cut when the opponent was back checking tripped and his skakes flew this case the victim mask proved hinderance since his face was protected and didn bother with the usually instinctive reaction protect his face neck quick thinking coach saved his life applying direct pressure and using snow contract the blood vessels from what can remember bill scott wscott physics ubc jets down but not out
rec.sport.hockey	hockey guest spots guys looking answe bit trivia what hockeplayers have appeared major talk shows letterman carson leno arsenio etc shows national nature include canadian equivalents you can think any this can include nhl olympic and world champion ship players pretty sure seen gretzky and lemieux but was wondering there were any others saw messier and leetch shooting camera letterman could have been any show though since watch none those late night shows very regularly john santore philadelphia flyers break the surface tension with our wild kinetic dreams rush grand designs philadelphia flyers john santore jsbh andrew cmu edu rush yes king crimson emerson lake and palmer marillion genesis gabriel
rec.sport.hockey	where roger duncan nicholas duncan writes really feel the need for knowledgable hockey observer explain this year playoffs mean the obviously superior toronto team with the best center and the best goalie the league keeps losing what gives unfortunately roger now over baseball spewing his expertise being dickhead guess afraid posting anything here because knows what expect john franjione department chemical engineering university colorado boulder franjion spot colorado edu
rec.sport.hockey	don cherry color man for pens next year isn the guy who took shots jagr and ulf recent sports illustrated not familiar with cherry work and maybe known for sarcasm but have wonder about him doing commentary for the pens bart
rec.sport.hockey	trivia question article dox acsu buffalo edu hammerl acsu buffalo edu valerie hammerl writes and tuttle longer with the blues but don know where possibly the ihl but you best ask blues fan steve tuttle was traded from the blues the before the start this season along with pat jablonski for future considerations played for milwaukee the ihl then got traded from que along with michel mongeau currently playing with halifax the ahl joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	ulf crushes valeri zelepukin that more less says flicked the penguins game briefly and saw ulf cross check valeri the face wondering don cherry going off this all coach corner billc bill clare eastman kodak company internet clare bissun kodak com elmgrove road phone rochester new york any opinions expressed herein belong and not employer
rec.sport.hockey	espn lack coverage article apr philabs philips com jpc philabs philips com john curcio writes the worst thing that this exactly what did last year had the rangers msg and the two different games scny and sca the same time yes rather have cover just for the amount coverage this year you had game scny game sca game espn and the rangers hadn crashed and burned you would have had game msg what are you complaining about seem recall last year everyone complaining about coverage even remember orioles games being shown the area instead hockey and what about when failed show the conclusion other games because its feature game was over sound familiar this year getting twice the coverage can see all the caps games plus the games espn shows think great that hockey back espn imho they doing great job especially considering the baseball contract they have work around peter kester pkester mitre org
rec.sport.hockey	potvin and his stick article sscl uwo sscl uwo writes article fhc msuinfo msu edu hallg yangtze egr msu edu the terminator writes from hallg yangtze egr msu edu the terminator felix potvin deserves have the kicked out him there anyone that should hitting with his stick its his pussy defensemen who can seem move big dino ciccerelli lbs out from front the net obviously toronto has realized that they are overmatched the wings and must rely trying antagonize the superior red wings with cheap shots prefer watch hockey than seeing shots felix potvin slashing and spearing dino ciccerelli standing front the net has every right stand front the net just not the crease yes does but the goalie sure hell doesn want him there when played roller hockey boy miss those days goalie would scream defense clear guys out the slot don care the crease not get him the hell away from can see the ball yes roller hockey remember and there was nobody around clear the slot then myself pushing the offending player hard hate people way when the goalie and sure felix does too should say that didn see the incident potvin really swung the stick big time then that not right but can move people out the way player the ice too you know keith keller let rangers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs this corner let quakers weighing almost every weight imaginable life and all that surrounds blues traveler
rec.sport.hockey	where the knowledgeable observer franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione writes duncan nicholas duncan writes really feel the need for knowledgable hockey observer explain this year playoffs mean the obviously superior toronto team with the best center and the best goalie the league keeps losing what gives unfortunately roger now over baseball spewing his expertise being dickhead guess afraid posting anything here because knows what expect indeed nice have fans that are concerned about the dearth disputatious dissertation linked hiatus have simply been too damned busy lately keep you lads and lassies entertained you can sure however that will somehow manage find time woof the leafs give just cause and let all try keep people names especially mine out the subject headers for one neither seek nor enjoy such cheap form notoriety one thing you can assured however this the leafs are the best all the teams the league that have allowed goals games cordially always maynard ramsey laurentian many morons and little time
rec.sport.hockey	pens fans reactions richard coyle gomer pitt edu wrote that not inner calm boredom and being spoiled the arena been quiet church many nights this year too many just take winning for granted been seemingly forever since the team lost and forgotten what like feel real excitement and surprise victory least last night there was some excitement the pens didn have wrapped before the game was half over like the previous two games not sure just rose and played better the penguins just started play down somewhat probably was somewhere between new jersey seemed much more aggressive last night the pens end they did much more swarming around which least kept element suspense the game question that billington helped make more interesting also claude lemieux didn help the cause any though with his ejection early the game who going start the devils goal for the final game sunday sorry couldn help myself tom huot huot cray com
rec.sport.hockey	bowman needs credit gerald olchowy golchowy alchemy chem utoronto wrote bowman the genius johnson isn bowman great coach johnson very good one however bowman really not modern coach and patrick solution having him only run the team game days and delegate most the day day responsibity the assistants shrewd managerial decision patrick part imho bowman the perfect coach for this group players this time johnson was the perfect coach two years ago for his group players would say have been very lucky here pittsburgh that the order these coaches came was this one excluding the unfortunate circumstances which brought about the change with the immense talent the penguins roster this year tougher bowman keeps the egos check johnson the other hand was able inspire the younger inexperienced players new heights both coaches have had different strengths both which came exactly the right time another person also mentioned that bowman the perfect coach for this time since nobody can argue with his decisions how can you argue with the coach with the best record hockey anyway playing for great coach like that demands respect which also keeps the egos check just couple ideas tom huot huot cray com
rec.sport.hockey	stats hello could someone tell and where could find faceoff stats for the season and later the think its early get now thanks lot
rec.sport.hockey	trivia question article apr sei cmu edu caj sei cmu edu carol jarosz writes while watching the penguins devils game last night saw the slash that barrasso took the neck this brought mind the goaltender who had his jugular vein cut skate think was sabre but not positive does anyone remember know his name what has happened him since what about the player whose skate cut the goalie name info has this ever happened before hockey game thanks carol pens was clint malarchuk whatever happened him anyway barfly sigh leafs cry
rec.sport.hockey	goalie mask poll update now here this anyone voting for john blue for best goalie mask poll will shot site questions asked but mon black mask with yellow paint along the opening how totally plain vanilla eeuu heh someone mentioned tommy soderstrom flyers for the besk mask poll too the mentioned below part all has plain white helmet with big cage found this pretty amusing john santore philadelphia flyers break the surface tension with our wild kinetic dreams rush grand designs philadelphia flyers john santore jsbh andrew cmu edu rush yes king crimson emerson lake and palmer marillion genesis gabriel
rec.sport.hockey	hockey equip recommendations hey man having spent the past season learning skate and having played couple sessions mock hockey ready invest hockey equipment particularly since will taking summer hockey lessons however completely and profoundly ignorant when comes hockey equipment checked out local stores and looked catalogs but was hoping solicit opinions suggestions before actually plunking down any money having played football high school and college least have that equipment basis for comparison but for example what are the advantages disadvantages different kinds shoulder pads and pants girdles are there any notoriously bad unsafe brands styles etc any suggestions comments would greatly appreciated tom menner when you swimming the creek software engineering institute and eel bites your cheek carnegie mellon university that moray pittsburgh fabulous furry freak bros
rec.sport.hockey	espn lack coverage pkester hooville mitre org peter kester writes jpc philabs philips com john curcio writes the worst thing that this exactly what did last year yes rather have cover just for the amount coverage this year you had game scny game sca game espn and the rangers hadn crashed and burned you would have had game msg what are you complaining about the problem that fault espn ongoing games are not covered til the final horn sounds with two channels scny and sca late finishing games pacific time and overtimes elsewhere will kick the end local coverage scny blocked the mets there still some hockey sca scny plus with espn the current situation would alleviated gld souviens gary dare gld columbia edu winnipeg jets gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	sharks kingston fired article apr csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu nelson writes article apr iscnvx lmsc lockheed com spiegel sgi msd lmsc lockheed com mark spiegel writes article apr csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu nelson writes said gund will have open his checkbook didn say give any draft picks promising talent could have gotten murphy for the great but agree the sharks shouldn give young talent early round draft picks listed chelios only indicate the type player think the sharks need pick the rules signing free agents less than years old puts big restriction what the sharks can pick however believer they need pick some players who will add toughness the team but you have remember that you unlikely get any real quality free agents who not require compensation the sharks tried with makarov who was probably the top the class among non compensation free agents but even probably wouldn have helped too much don expect get top quality just some toughness don view makarov player who would add toughness size hopefully won much worry next year alexander cherbayev and michal sykora have agreed multi year contracts and appears that mike rathje will also sign soon all three are pretty big size alone isn enough all know how much fear kolstad struck the eyes opponents not well rathje and sykora are both highly touted prospects unlike kolstad and cherbayev was initially supposed play for the russian team anybody know what happened there that means that likely good enough nelson you confusing skill and toughness mcgill hammond johan garpenlov would you really rather have those two instead johan your logic then you enjoy having falloon and ozolinsh injured reserve your logic then you think that the sharks had kept mcgill and hammond that you can guarantee that falloon and ozolinsh wouldn have gotten hurt think again there was chance that mcgill would have caused ozolinsh get stuck and you know hammond worthless and mcgill almost worthless well wilson maybe but don think falloon and ozolinsh were really injured cheapshots who said they were they weren then don see any justification that having mcgill and hammond around would prevent their injuries the injuries falloon and ozolinsh were purely accidental then what could mcgill and hammond have done prevent them hey get off the mcgill hammond thing fan either point that last year the sharks had toughness that was missing this year this year had more skill all for that but your skill players keep getting beat and injured they can you much good whether cheap shot not you can let the other teams push you around the sharks simply got pushed around much other teams knew this they knew they could aggressively check the sharks and not pay for adding some players the off season who will add some toughness the team will help insure that next season other teams will more hesistant vigorously check our skill players take cheap shots doesn guarantee injuries nothing does but something the sharks can reduce the number injuries mark just say mark spiegel spiegel lmsc lockheed com cow palace epicenter
rec.sport.hockey	hockey guest spots two years ago mark messier appeared david letterman the summer signed wit the rangers remember and mike gartner taking slapshots the camera one finally was bullseye and the screen went blank was funny you saw guess
rec.sport.hockey	lemieux getting the hart jeez hope not article apr unbvm csd unb unb patrick walker writes who should get the hart mario jesus bad enough for just utter the word without being extremely sick and pissed off they guy luber ten minutes now give king break with this mario the best player ever what did gretzky die wish bobby clarke not that condone violence but make exception for mario but mario going complain about being hit someone should give him and scotty something real complain about sorry ramble you can see hate mario pat walker unb why don you kill him beav well dunnow eddie might get trouble here gun beav shoot him beav well eddie blam blam wally you trouble now beave
rec.sport.hockey	ranger fans article apr eagle wesleyan edu kwolfer eagle wesleyan edu writes far the stanley cup goes think there only one team that can test pittsburgh and that detroit this would the most entertaining and hard fought series mario amazing kurt that mario makes pat walker sounds like the type that would bring game and take pot shots mario stand still dam sunavbich hmff joseph stiehm
rec.sport.hockey	espn article vic andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu chad nicholas hunter writes live pittsburgh yes pens fan where hockey gets lot coverage can only imagine how caps fan residing texas must feel caps fan residing atlanta where they dont even tell the cking playoff scores the news skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite braves effect you mike patton faith more hornets capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	potvin and his stick potvin can pound dino what happens when dino pounds him dino gets his legs slashed can slash potvin return this year lssu hockey game player was called for slash when hit the goalie glove with his stick that slashing while hitting someone ankles isn how the refs know what call the goalies get more liberties than other players brad
rec.sport.hockey	hockey guest spots sclark epas utoronto susan clark writes looking answer bit trivia what hockeplayers have appeared major talk shows examples deleted pretty sure seen gretzky and lemieux but was wondering there were any others michael fox was letterman about year ago two during the playoffs celebrity hockey player for the bruins while not exactly nhler did mention that the bruins wanted break ulfie legs something like that response the neely incident was quite amusing one the few letterman viewers who actually knew what was talking about anybody know who the pens celebrity hockey player michael douglas aka michael keaton joseph stiehm
rec.sport.hockey	trivia question what sadist brought this vein about malarchuk when saw what happened wanted throw and the same time was devastated since thought that malarchuk wouldn survive btw believe picked alcohol problem after before the incident radically change the subject the caps must having nightmares about the isles overtime the playoffs have they ever beaten the islanders playoff game this lunacy the caps are such sorry team the playoffs they consistently choke against opponents who they should beating losing two games row not coincidence evidence the choke factor keith keller let rangers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs this corner let quakers weighing almost every weight imaginable life and all that surrounds blues traveler
rec.sport.hockey	where roger article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione writes unfortunately roger now over baseball spewing his expertise being dickhead guess afraid posting anything here because knows what expect john franjione department chemical engineering university colorado boulder franjion spot colorado edu hey could start new game the net called where roger similiar where waldo but instead finding waldo picture people try find roger newsgroup the net predict that basketball pro next laurie marshall wayne state university detroit michigan wings
rec.sport.hockey	coverage nhl blame article apr lehigh edu sjg lehigh edu steven jay gibble writes mario the michael jordan hockey all that fucker has fall the ice and the closet guy him gets least last night the game between and pitt was being pushed while skating across the front the goal while trying get shot off the guy him was doing good job got off weak shot but then decided fall the ice then the fucking ref van helloamend called the guy for holding they replayed the play and roomate who clueless about hockey wanted know what the guy did get call because was fucking obvious the player had both hands his stick and did not trip him simple mario gets touched falls the ice automatic but the thing that really pissed off pitt scored the goal don remember the resulting and eventually won his diving calls makes huge difference the outcome game all agreeing disagreeing replies are welcomed steve must have been watching two different games the devil had one hand mario elbow and pulling the elbow caused mario fall the call was appropriate using clueless people substantiate your claims doesn give lot confidence your call either next time consider getting second opinion from clueful observer maybe all those available disagreed joseph stiehm
rec.sport.hockey	ranger fans article apr eagle wesleyan edu kwolfer eagle wesleyan edu writes for one happy about the ranger hiring keenan too bad that they agree that keenan excellent choice did you see mike lupica column sunday news sentiments exactly think just may the one instill some hunger and fire into their hearts next season either that going kicking alot butt reading through most these hockey news don see many ranger fans writing here but new this group and have been keeping fairly quiet you know doing the lurking thing don have sense how many rangers fans there are the list either die hard ranger fan guess have sat the garden throughout the penguins led mario goals decimation them but sick the abundance talent that has been totally untapped and the lack heart displayed this season have some final questions about the way the team was handled that last dreadful stretch knowing they needed offensive help from the blueline why didn see mike hurlbut who played pretty well when was called when leetch first went down hurlbut was injured for quite while not sure but think may have recovered time for the playoff run and like you question why wasn used why joe kocur playing every night not bob probert who tough but also can play believe kocur was used many instances for his intimidation factor granted seemed get awful lot ice time for that reason alone but you have realize that when team not doing any real physical intimidation like have nickel for every time said they got take the body more you got least have some illusions how come paul broten relegated street clothes for the end the season least plays with some heart and character draws penalties and plays when the ice was the doghouse for some reason agree and don know joe cirella enough said sorry don agree with you here think joey did good job filling when was asked can imagine that easy going from near ice time being full timer don seem remember him turning the puck over the blue line too much failing clear the zone worked hard and least didn make any rookie mistakes said himself interview can only give what has and did ranger fans may suffering but some the most loyal unlike islander fans who only show when the team wins absolutely think attendance the garden was better the last day the season than any average night for the islanders fought series mario amazing the man awesome way enjoying the playoffs more now that the rangers aren them can really appreciate all the glory mario getting without hating him because the opposing team deserves all far concerned mary mary blumenstock mblumens itsmail hamilton edu hamilton college clinton rangers next year
rec.sport.hockey	coverage nhl blame sjg lehigh edu steven jay gibble writes the coverage the playoffs fucking ridicules overtime time games that are not shown what the hell kind shit this that would have happened the flyers they were the damn playoffs begin with while was watching would have gone throught the roof for those you who read guide there article next week sportsview concerning the nhl and major network broadcasting pretty interesting jennifer
rec.sport.hockey	where the knowledgeable observer maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes one thing you can assured however this the leafs are the best all the teams the league that have allowed goals games cordially always maynard ramsey laurentian many morons and little time roger you should check your facts before posting the kings have conceded goals games jon
rec.sport.hockey	ulf and all drozinst erau edu drozinski tim writes aluminum stick being taken ulf head gonna solve the problem with violence the sport hockey how the hell can you say the guy goon and justify with your back assward mentality saying that hurting player will solve anyone problems asinine new rules and new referee system need instituted right now too many the real goons get away with too much because the ref watching the play supposed seen koharski and van hellemond name few with their heads their asses few calls rather than keeping eye the goofballs behind the play even the linesmen were able call all penalties would improvement unfortunately that the way the league heading you can fight the only way retaliate against someone with cheap shot when the ref isn looking ulf has brought this high level players stuck the past like neely who prefer fights cheap shots are disadvantage the new system lets face cheap shot like high sticking very effective method easier hide from the refs has better chance causing injury and you can draw people into fights that way don like but that the way the league going the way there was rather good hit ulf the last penguin devil game managed hit the player the face with stick must have been legal hit after all ulf clean player and allowed things like that
rec.sport.hockey	oiler rumour team moving press conference next week heard story the local sports news broadcast edmonton oiler owner peter pocklington will holding press conference next week while the exact details are not known believed concern the oiler future rumour has that pocklington signed tentative lease arrangement with copps collesium hamilton during the press conference pocklington may announce the deal quite possible that the deal may simply way force edmonton northlands renegotiate the oiler lease the stadium northlands has offered buy the oilers for million earlier but the offer was rejected immediately pocklington for opinion divided edmonton has been fairly supportive the oilers even though they small market team they had many sellouts the even with the problems that the team had this year they still brought more fans than many teams larger cities did the other hand the team does move there place more deserving than hamilton course how would that affect the grand realignment scheme bettman
rec.sport.hockey	nhl summary parse results for games played tue april islanders washington first period islanders turgeon king thomas second period washington hunter johansson miller islanders turgeon thomas vaske washington hunter johansson carpenter third period islanders hogue unassisted washington khristich cavallini bondra islanders ferraro flatley hogue washington hunter johansson khristich first overtime scoring second overtime islanders mullen ferraro flatley islanders power play scorer pts ferraro flatley hogue king mullen thomas turgeon vaske washington power play scorer pts bondra carpenter cavallini hunter johansson khristich miller montreal quebec first period quebec leschyshyn kamensky sakic quebec young lapointe quebec young lapointe duchesne second period scoring third period montreal bellows odelein quebec lapointe ricci quebec power play special goals total scorer pts duchesne kamensky lapointe leschyshyn ricci sakic young montreal power play scorer pts bellows odelein new jersey pittsburgh first period pittsburgh mceachern francis taglianetti pittsburgh lemieux samuelsson barrasso second period pittsburgh tocchet stevens samuelsson pittsburgh jagr francis ramsey pittsburgh stevens francis murphy pittsburgh mceachern daniels mullen third period pittsburgh mullen francis barrasso pittsburgh power play special goals total scorer pts barrasso daniels francis jagr lemieux mceachern mullen murphy ramsey samuelsson stevens taglianetti tocchet new jersey power play scoring buffalo boston first period buffalo presley unassisted buffalo wood moller sweeney second period buffalo mogilny lafontaine third period buffalo hawerchuk carney smehlik buffalo power play special goals total scorer pts carney hawerchuk lafontaine mogilny moller presley smehlik sweeney wood boston power play scoring
rec.sport.hockey	results april article apr ericsson etxonss ufsa ericsson staffan axelsson writes here try the czech republic goaltenders petr briza finland somewhere right lukko finland look the colors his mask defense leo gudas jypht finland now germany excellent defenseman drahomir kadlec hifk finland jiri kucera tappara finland tomas kapusta hpk finland otakar janecky finland jokerit finland radek toupal hpk finland jiri dolezal jypht finland new contract jypht owns his player rights all these czechs kadlec dolezal not anymore are very good hockey players big surprise that hlinka selected dolezal dole had bad season jypht and that why they didn make new contract the other czech had jiri jonak got fired also there are lots czechs playing finland darius rusnak igor liba sejba svoboda
rec.sport.hockey	german audience lunatic watched the game germany czechs today and was astonished about the behaviour the german audience the german team got few penalties the last period and the crowd went grazy they threw coins extra pucks and other trash into the rink that stupid what guess the canadian referee one the isostar bros gave the german team penalty for that but didn help much guess the germans just are proud over their nazi kill all everyone but germans sucks attitude they just seem have that kind attitude every possible sport remember the european champs stockholm soccer really pisses off not mean that every single german has this attitude that sucks but most them seem jokke kylmaoja golf phoenix oulu
rec.sport.hockey	few words advice the stars hater have some advice for you and some thoughts about your hatred the minnesota north stars real team like toronto would not moved you are right just eliminated from the playoffs first round why stay minnesota when you can college western ontario and actually take classes map reading and the artistry bsing specifically set for just you why should anyone love the stars when hating the leafs much better sorry well maybe you can understand big words next time limit vocabulary words like get real team now and not waste our time respond this article love laugh your humor even though unintentional got big kick out leafs where home think delarocq eos ncsu edu afc east division champions and afc conference champions squished the fish monday night football november squished the trash talking fish afc championship january you are buffalo bills fan email delarocq eos ncsu edu can talk all about the games insight etc you are packers fan let know interested any news out green bay
rec.sport.hockey	bruins could anyone post the game summary for the sabres bruins game
rec.sport.hockey	espn yours article apr wkuvx bitnet kozloce wkuvx bitnet writes jesus christ the score now the pens are beating the shit out the devils who gave the middle the period espn does something smart the announcer states well folks this game getting out hand lets the islander capitals game celebrate was actually making progress homework because was bored the scheduled game tear down and throw jersey hunter scores ape shit cause this the first caps game been able watch all season and what does espn they back the blowout that hasn chance hell winning the period ends and the sportscaster capitols just tied yes oops excuse goes into his penguin worship mode dont freak pens fans they are worthy this glad wont have play them much next year and here comes the period what its the blowout again they were just waiting for the cap isles get out intermission good they put close game back wait whats this shit they showing the blowout again aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaauuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugggggggggggggggg guess what the score now penguins switch games you holy shit they changing games its about goddamned time lets see they stay later think this proves point the caps game goes into overtime but due contractual obligations they have switch the fucking baseball sorry for language but pissed what the hell were they going their scheduled game went into overtime espn get your head out your ass now know there are lot first all think when espn covers the game they wonderful job but last night felt the same way really hate watching devils pens game everyone knows that devils are going get their ass kicked why even bother showing them was bored and these espn people don seem have any brain after the sundays and last night games they are still going show devils pens thu and sun what the hell are they thinking about think they keep like this nhl will never get major network contract rather see caps isls game which more exciting now just hope all baseball games are rained out espn atleast can get diffrent hockey games experience what makes person make new mistakes instead old one mail cobra chopin udel edu
rec.sport.hockey	 article bigboote wpi edu ching bigwpi wpi edu the logistician writes need all the players wearing the nhl know now only one ray borque for the bruins any help would greatly appreciated thanx the logistician reigns supreme blue tigers pistons lions red wings ching wpi wpi edu pierre turgeon the islanders mike
rec.sport.hockey	abc coverage article edu icop csa edu antonio pera writes loved the abc coverage the production was excellent the appearance antonio you weren alone abc ratings were very good was schocked hear that abc telecast was the fifth most watched sporting event over the weekend national rating came out very respectable top nielsen markets were boston the game scored lower but had some competion from local sports teams quite frankly expected abc ratings under but happy proven wrong well well sometimes pays off clicking away your cable remote control and you happen hockey fan you could just stumble upon playoff hockey game espn picked detroit toronto game monday night because the only night game mlb was being rained out chicago you have give espn credit for switching detroit fox coverage and having bill clement pittsburgh station wate for intermission analysis maybe espn people were giddy over perliminary over night abc ratings for sunday telecast and thought was good idea feature the norris division showdown rather than monster truck competion good move espn ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	espn yours various justifiable rantings espn coverage several deleted the only way change espn thinking even possible complain them directly anyone know there telephone bristol find hard believe that espn doesn think viewers will simply change the channel from boring game know did and then when they didn show the nyi wash overtime was livid wanted watch baseball could have turned the phillies padres extra inning game instead went bed angry boycotted espn morning sportscenter today was still incensed wife says shouldn bed angry but last nite grrrrrrr tim mavor known many names college marine studies some call tim univ delaware newark you know much that hidden tim tmavor pandora cms udel edu monty python and the holy grail
rec.sport.hockey	info world hockey championships does anyone have any information about the world hockey championships and specifically about the team game summaries and stats would greatly appreciated usa today reported that the beat the czech republic but that was the limit the story thanks laura
rec.sport.hockey	abc coverage article blue cis pitt edu shah pitt edu ravindra shah writes exactly that biggest complaint about the coverage far follow that damn puck espn abc going stick with one sided pens devils series and looks like they will continue with thursday night rather watch pretty women the stands than non action the ice where slow aging team being taken out lunch dynamic pens squad ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	espn sucks baseball guess which article aty ccu umanitoba umturne ccu umanitoba daryl turner writes showing meaningless relatively baseball game over the overtime game that was tied with less than seconds left the clock gimme break where does espn get these brilliant decisions from called contractual obligations with major league baseball would liked see the the isles caps game but understand where espn coming from espn committed single telecast night and everything after that bonus ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	trivia the habs article news cso uiuc edu caine uxa cso uiuc edu lord vader writes sure that this has been asked times before but have wondered since heard where the hell did the nickname the habs come from for the montreal canadiens thanks advance caine schneider the answer the faq for this group nough said laurie marshall wayne state university detroit michigan wings
rec.sport.hockey	schedule article inn appserv eng sun com mre teal eng sun com mike eisler writes but only philadelphia and chicago everywhere else the only reason sportschannel was available was for local baseball broadcasts and local baseball pre empted the nhl playoffs thus far into this good point not only baseball but local nba basketball games took precedence over any sca nhl playoff coverage ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	red wings goespel article apr wuecl wustl edu mvs cec wustl edu michael virata writes don forget paul ysebaert devil good team player and dino ciccarelli and ray sheppard and and laurie marshall wayne state university detroit michigan wings
rec.sport.hockey	wings will win article ragraca vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy graca writes true that vancouver did not make the playoffs for many year before quinn came but those years the smythe division was lot mean lot tougher division than the norris also known the snorris division vancouver had play edmonton and calgary both very legitimate stanley cup contenders eight times year while detroit got play such powerhouses toronto and minnesota now edmonton hardly even force the league and the smythe even has the mighty san jose sharks while them thar fighting words hardly force geez miss the playoffs once years and even after making the final four times the last five years and everyone thinks its doomsville over this same period time which vancouver was improving was everybody the norris except louis detroit had improve just keep with the competition their division they had improve lot get better than their competition the norris bryan murray inherited team with very little talent for really good players they had yzerman burr and probert and that was about and doubt some will dispute whether burr and probert were that good the rest were either very green rookies washed veterans the only reason they got far they did the years before murray came was due the coaching demers who least first got every last ounce effort possible out his team then even his coaching began degrade fedorov primeau kozlov lidstrom sillinger konstantinov drake kennedy racine and cheveldae were already the pipeline due devellano murray inherited these guys addition yzerman probert carson chiasson etc there are number reasons why detroit wasn bad shape standings wise when murray took over vanc was when quinn took over some which outlined above but murray did not have any better personnel work with the outset than did quinn with the exception yzerman and one player cannot alone make team into stanley cup contender sure everyone reading this will agree quinn had far less murray took over detroit time take advantage all devellano good drafting devellano had not given demers request make the oates trade might still gerald
rec.sport.hockey	bruins april mckee buffalo edu douglas mckee wrote were doomed the division still not convinced the sabres will win this series lived buffalo all life and these last years have been playoff hell but just sitting back crossing fingers and hoping the offense can keep scoring have fear doug the bruins are toast statistically only teams all the stanley cup series ever played have come back win and couldn have happened nicer team with all the crowing from boston fans had endure over the last month take heart bruins fans least you finished first the adams sinister chuckle jack laugh and the world thinks you idiot rosereader entered rose rosemail rosenet usenet gateway rose media
rec.sport.hockey	bruins april wuziyun suned yale edu you wanna know wrote see the providence bruins lost the first two games home and came back tie the series the road there may hope for the bruins yet toast they toast and know how much you want eat these words but ain gonna happen are the golf courses the boston area playable condition yet jack acid consumes times its weight life rosereader entered rose rosemail rosenet usenet gateway rose media
rec.sport.hockey	habs win habs win april jbe jbe musicb mcgill wrote yahooooooooooooooooooooo what game finally beat those diques and the habs dominated this game and especially you realize that dominated game also and should ahead this series glorieux were plagued bad luck the puck wouldn bounce their way but they got their lucky break the winning goal went off gusarov skate thank you lord and about time hit posts this overtime and post game overtime let hope that start getting some luck for change played well this game but roy inconsistency still makes nervous otherwise say going win this series sweat all patrick roy provide consistent goaltending and those damn bruins lost their down congratulations buffalo life doesn get better than this agreed jack tagline bad missing carrier rosereader entered rose rosemail rosenet usenet gateway rose media
rec.sport.hockey	hockeytipset avgjort hockey tipset ren vinnare hockey tipset per bengtson grattis slutst llning per bengtson lars andersson anders engwall staffan axelsson patrik sander hannu hietanen ingvar khan noran tut jan stein roger wennstr lars thore aarhus fredrik nissen marek repinski lars wiklund lennart hedenstr vinnare och lycklig gare fbk mugg allts per bengtson kometen som ledde hockeytipset vid halvtid men som sedan fick vika anders engwall slutspurten tre rsta lyckades pricka den viktiga guld till bryn kanske var det att tippa slutspelet ocks men man ser att den mna finalen mellan lule och bryn ist llet hade slutat till lule rdel hade det varit samma vinnare alla fall ljer korrekta svaren siffran inom parentes anger hur nga som hade tippat detta anger per bengtsons vinnande rad elitserien tippa den slutgiltiga tabellen ster bryn malm rjestad modo lule leksand djurg rden gle vilka kvartsfinalisterna vidare till semifinal djurg rden lule bryn malm vilka lag final lule bryn vilka blir svenska stare bryn allsvenskan stra lunda huddinge rkl ven aik team vle boden staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson contact for swedish hockey
rec.sport.hockey	buffalo boston defense article apr ncsu edu delarocq eos ncsu edu derrell emery larocque writes tonight boston the buffalo sabres blanked the boston bruins tonight boston looks like boston can hang this season because buffalo home record awesome this great buffalo fans might get see revenge for last year glad grant fuhr will never over confident after two wins you are takes four wins defeat opponent each tougher obtain than the previous one buffalo off good start fuhr proving the fuhr bashers wrong but boston awfully good team gerald
rec.sport.hockey	bruins article apr exu ericsson lmcmasc noah ericsson writes could anyone post the game summary for the sabres bruins game grant fuhr rules gerald
rec.sport.hockey	sharks jack feirerra was sharks kingston fired article apr csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu nelson writes article lte kinn appserv eng sun com mre teal eng sun com mike eisler writes don think trading kisio was intrinsically mistake however trading him for round pick would should have been worth lot more than round pick for playoff team fact would intimate that the offers the sharks got this year for kisio were way greater than just round pick hindsight nobody expected kisio have his best career year besides without kisio the sharks would have tanked even earlier the season and gund might have gotten little more serious about getting joe murphy guy who definitely would around years from now when the sharks make the playoffs what else could done the gunds offered million for murphy but the oilers wanted prospect which the sharks declined give which think correct didn mean imply that gund offer wasn enough gund offer was the right but too late the season offered november lets sather buy replacement for murphy this season and make the playoffs this year march doesn help sather with his immediate objectives doesn help with long term objectives only prospect draft pick does and way should the sharks that however getting back what games had kisio been traded chicago last year then the sharks for october and maybe gund panicks sooner november and here another what twist chicago would have had kisio this season they never after murphy the first place because kelly having his best season bigger guys chicago gund has competition ferriera sather and keenan all look like geniuses broken fax machine and ferriera keenan and maybe kingston and maybe even green lose their jobs kind makes you shiver doesn bottomline for every black scenario any you can concoct for kisio leaving can concoct equally bright one the kisio fiasco was the cause ferierra down fall hope wasn because tried trade kisio but because screwed nonetheless sorry ferierra and kingston are gone and wish gund would follow and what have the gunds done exactly that caused you wish that they were gone are you serious let ferierra fire kingston these last two basically mean that sharks are starting over again terms the timetable capture the cup stated frequently out expansion teams had the same from inception through cup season broadcast more home games than away games broadcast very few road pacific and mountain time games jack ticket prices from two years not that going pay bucks for seats probably next the virtual folks not tell priority not let sell priority order for get the free jacket force order tickets for next season before get select section not let park the new arena after paying for their privileged parking lot which was sometimes full when got there for straight years been loyal ticket holder since day literally spring when the team was announced and not getting that loyalty returned wirtz treats his fans far better comparison and pocklington with his cheap tix the best owner all edmonton oilers for playoffs next year stay edmonton know one isn suppose make negative comments signatures but what did oiler fans you deserve the stay edmonton part never wish the kings leave metro too much fun watching the shark beat them mike eisler mre eng sun com not only are they leafs the best team but their fans are even more intelligent and insightful than pittsburgh their players are mighty bright too mean really was going get his wallet back right jan brittenson leaf pen woofers rec sport hockey
rec.sport.hockey	don cherry help out here article mfpirbo wbli ispc andrew cmu edu william willis andrew cmu edu writes person who has rarely even seen don cherry and doesn know anything about him don know whether just this area pittsburgh the usa that deprived his broadcasts whether canadian thing altogether seriously what all about know was coach one time and from the volume posts about him someone surely getting steady diet him somehow but question what the deal with him secondly are the comments his that read about the net merely flame bait people actually take him seriously gotta tell you from what see really sounds like ass let know maybe missing something well here detroit get see and hear don cherry quite regularly the detroit area picks hockey night canada from cbc windsor where see don cherry coaches corner between periods also get see don cherry grapevine just before the game the grapevine hockey talk show where don talks player coach about what else hockey actually pretty good show and don isn annoying coaches corner think this were don got his nickname grapes but not sure don use coach the boston bruins don know exactly when that was could someone fill this info local radio station here detroit wllz talks don every tuesday morning personally had fill donny really pisses off sometimes during the detroit toronto game monday night cbc don gave high praise doug gilmour saying was two way player and not just designated goal scorer and that probably the best player the game because that that fine and agree that gilmour good two way player but said the exact same thing about yzerman about month ago local radio talk show what gives seems like just has set speech that changes when goes from city city don cherry think insert star player name for city that the best two way player the league today there have been other times can remember exactly what said that basically changed his opinions match the audience was talking someone here the net said something about how don criticized mario lemieux but when the time comes for don broadcast the cup playoffs from the civic center yes think the pens will make out the wales conference don will apologize left and right for his remarks about lemieux opinion ass and won change opinion different city sorry this didn answer your question better but just had get this off chest laurie marshall wayne state university detroit michigan wings
rec.sport.hockey	oilers for sale yadalle ualberta yadallee dave writes here one from the mill the oilers might move hamilton where porklington can get free deal given what labour relations and puck has been like would sigh relief this way can can both elements well dave would have disagree with you there satan himself could own the team and happy long the oilers stayed edmonton selfish but true don want see the oilers move matter who their owner bart bart splunge uucp barto nait
rec.sport.hockey	atlanta abc affiliate sucks knew despite the lack full game telecast last week was still too much hockey for atlanta atlanta abc has declined pick any playoff games till may and even when they show the games may and may they will continue skip the first half hour the telecast know this still better situation compared rest georgia alabama etc but still pretty annoying least pittsburgh had network preemptionchannel which showed all netwoork shows prempted the local affiliate asked them what their problem was told them that local rating was not that bad considering was the first nhl game shown after long time without much promotion besides their syndicated programming the afternoon usually low rated what did they have lose showing nhl playoffs she told that they had contractual obligations asked her golf was shown oin abc would contractual obligations come the way and how come contractual obligations didn come the way last week telecast she then couldn give coherent answer also added that atlanta had one the highest neutral site game attendances and that the demographics were good think abc and other networks should begin tie their high rated programs like roseanne with thier sports programming hope that everyone atlanta who reads this bboard calls wsb and complain bitterlyt about this tell them you will stop watching their news telecasts since they seem very unprofessional handling this situation the lady did not seem settle single reason sometimes the reason low ratings then another time she says contractual obligations
rec.sport.hockey	trivia question article apr sei cmu edu caj sei cmu edu carol jarosz writes while watching the penguins devils game last night saw the slash that barrasso took the neck this brought mind the goaltender who had his jugular vein cut skate think was sabre but not positive does anyone remember know his name what has happened him since what about the player whose skate cut the goalie name info has this ever happened before hockey game thanks carol pens his name clint malarchuk not sure what does now but heard extra slasher films brian
rec.sport.hockey	atlanta sportsbars know look pretty desperate this bboard think have posted messages already the issue nhl telecats over the last few weeks but hey pretty desperate what interested not just sportsbar with multiple screens thast can watch the game one those silent screens are there any hockey oriented bars this area does some patrick division adams division fan have satellite dish don mind paying admission fee necessary
rec.sport.hockey	don cherry help out here article mfpirbo wbli ispc andrew cmu edu william willis andrew cmu edu writes person who has rarely even seen don cherry and doesn know anything about him don know whether just this area pittsburgh the usa that deprived his broadcasts whether canadian thing altogether seriously what all about know was coach one time and from the volume posts about him someone surely getting steady diet him somehow but question what the deal with him secondly are the comments his that read about the net merely flame bait people actually take him seriously gotta tell you from what see really sounds like ass let know maybe missing something for those you who complain about don cherry and wonder why popular the reply dick vitale and john madden and bobby knight and joe garagiola and howard cosell john madden picks gary clark the redskins for his all madden team lot over much better receivers for much the same reasons cherry sings the praises doug gilmour little guy with heart yet one doesn see string american posts saying that john madden has lost his marbles dick vitale always promoting this kid from this high school that college with outrageous statements why should americans expect that canada would not have such characters relation our greatest passion which hockey canadians are very similar americans culturally our sports are just hockey and curling whereas with americans football basketball baseball and bowling gerald
rec.sport.hockey	bowman needs credit however bowman really not modern coach and patrick solution having him only run the team game days and delegate most the day day responsibity the assistants shrewd managerial decision patrick part would argue gerald that bowman the first modern coach bowman canadiens were the first nhl team have weight room the the first coach have seen that manipulates the press into spreading false game plan rumours during important games listen the pre game interview will bowman and compare that what the ice agree bowman master the lineups remember last year the when benched jagr only set him free when jagr banged the winning goal thought this was trademark bowman and also sign modern coach left asking what modern coach not bowman jake
rec.sport.hockey	nords habs was robbed article apr jarvis csri toronto edu yaska eecg toronto edu yaska sankar writes paul stewart the worst and most biased ref presently the nhl was robbed patrick roy the reason the game was lost and ron hextall the reason quebec won don buy this all roy was the reason the game was tied and that would not have been the case had dionne kept his cool roy stood his head for the first minutes the game when the nords were rushing from end end kamensky mini break after the tying goal and the first shot young were both excellent chances stopped roy roy outplayed hextall for most the game but roy becomes the villain and hextall the hero because roy team didn make full use their opportunities whoa what you are effectively doing implying that player plays really well stores mistakes that can used later time ths not roy the villain you succinctly put because allowed very cheap goal you think roy outplayed hextall perhaps you should get tape the game and watch the first minutes the third period nhl goaltenders make some great saves they did not they would not the nhl the first place not expect any particular goalie able make the great saves all the time even though they are occasionally required however when comes routine shot like sakic especially such crucial time game don think there are any legitimate excuses hextall the other hand had lot lucky bounces description lucky bounces hextall wasn particularly brilliant those plays not arguing that hextall was brilliant arguing that relatively weak wrist shot from the outside the circle shold not result goal but was just the goal the timing stank but against explosive team like quebec they gave them opportunity too many with powerplay that was totally unnecessary one goal game with less than minute there such thing just the goal have not defended dionne for taking the penalty either fact think was boneheaded move but led one goal only and montreal had two goal lead main concern the second goal this most certainly was team loss leclair missed his opportunities did bellows and brunet dionne took bad penalty damphousse and lebeau were silent carbonneau and savard were step behind all night roy gave the bad goal roy means can singled out for this loss what you say about the skaters absolutely true but realize that the game was effectively won you could watch any hockey game fact you could watch any sporting event period and spend hours discussing the what missed opportunities they are not important when the final result decided get the time soon watch the game again and email you list lucky montreal bounces and list quebec offensive screwups montreal was leading with minute the goalie the last line defence and will grant that extra attention focussed him sometimes without justification but roy gave lousy goal and team cannot afford such goal roy looked like player industrial league sakic shot and hextall didn dionne goal please who cares what value justify one lousy play with totally unrelated lousy play could hextall critique you like but you going assess his performance keep mind that made the key saves the key times roy paid big money because that his value compared other goalies and still the top for the record did not say that roy was not one the top goaltenders the league fact agree that the montreal media the quickest heap praise and then hurl derogatory comments against the habs they are better than uninformed fans assume you are referring however have pointed out that think the loss can blamed roy have not said sucks nor think made any other derogatory comments you regard objective and informed fyi observations derogatory really can help you dchhabra stpl ists
rec.sport.hockey	buffalo sabres article msuinfo msu edu vergolin euler lbs msu edu david vergolini writes buffalo fans red wings fan but amazed how the sabres are beating the bruins there any reason for this grant fuhr mogilny and lafontaine would like hear from you since not know much about the sabres dave vergolini michigan state university vergolin euler lbs msu edu pure and simple grant fuhr money has been awesome the playoffs especially last night but mogilny has been scoring well and his russian friend kymlev has also done well but fuhr the biggest reason they are winning and the difference between this year team and previous years bill perry
rec.sport.hockey	ulf and all allan sullivan allan ualberta wrote unfortunately that the way the league heading you can fight the only way retaliate against someone with cheap shot when the ref isn looking ulf has brought this high level players stuck the past like neely who prefer fights cheap shots are disadvantage the new system lets face cheap shot like high sticking very effective method easier hide from the refs has better chance causing injury and you can draw people into fights that way don like but that the way the league going the way there was rather good hit ulf the last penguin devil game managed hit the player the face with stick must have been legal hit after all ulf clean player and allowed things like that are there any nhl hockey players out there who might care comment this and end this ridiculously long discussion tom huot huot cray com
rec.sport.hockey	ulf crushes valeri zelepukin bill clare clare ssd kodak com wrote that more less says flicked the penguins game briefly and saw ulf cross check valeri the face wondering don cherry going off this all coach corner and that was the only infraction this type the game come wake geez not the only player who does this sort thing think were kind lucky the game was not really all that chippy considering the state about now tom huot huot cray com
rec.sport.hockey	coverage nhl blame sjg lehigh edu steven jay gibble writes whole lot completely ignorant stuff about pitt give this guy drug test and some ridalin whale you are dvb
rec.sport.hockey	wash isl game article apr staff dccs upenn edu filinuk staff dccs upenn edu geoff filinuk writes get off espn back and stop posting articles this subject there have been many complainers about this game that making sick generally agree with you however last night espn cut away baseball tonite which looks like sportscenter tailored baseball and they cut away pacific that quite contract they have there espn couldn deliver they should have had transistion plan let sportschannel pick the slack nonetheless ultimately the fault the american public that regular season baseball has precedence over playoff hockey the support your team support your game somebody had excellent idea that should write chrysler thank them for supporting hockey with their ads and that would consider their products here equally excellent idea watch baseball for minutes know asking lot but that what spew bags are for write down who advertising and write them letters complaining that they are supporting baseball your displeasure and that you won consider buying their products because mike eisler mre eng sun com not only are they leafs the best team but their fans are even more intelligent and insightful than pittsburgh their players are mighty bright too mean really was going get his wallet back right jan brittenson leaf pen woofers rec sport hockey
rec.sport.hockey	trivia question the goalie whom you refer clint malarchuk was that time playing with the sabres his team immediately prior that was the washington capitals while did recover and continue play not know his present whereabouts
rec.sport.hockey	bernie nicholls what man just some thoughts don usually like post simply make fun player but this time couldn resist during the pens devils game last night second period think kevin stevens was the penalty box nicholls punched kjell samuellson the face then raised his stick like two handed sword defend himself all kjell could and pounds was laugh and speaking swedish penguins defensemen ulf getting little out hand lately his cheap shots are getting more frequent and more violent everybody the meadowlands except for the officials could see last night rammed the butt his stick down one the devil throat always supported the argument does his job being irritating but starting push over the edge imho course holik chop barrasso neck wasn too sportsmanlike either seems that was following the the only way beat the penguins injure them philosophy modern drama professor pointed out the other day jagr was stoned pretty well tuesday night and last night well although the seconds danced around the devils end was pretty exciting matt uva
rec.sport.hockey	espn tell about article apr walter cray com huot cray com tom huot writes hadn heard about this new espn when this new network supposed start sounds great long cable offers hopefully epsn will use the lesson given the master ted turner the season ted introduced tnt many cable refused put saying that gee get enough old movies miniseries etc tbs usa amc wgn wor why need another one this was the fall come spring ted fixed their little red wagons good the previous spring nba playoffs wore tbs now they were tnt and still are and everyone gets tnt now espn should put nfl football and baseball espn and leave hockey espn and cable play games and drop espn favor espn espn should alternate baseball and football between channels every week but the espn guys collectively have the gonads the turner guy mike eisler mre eng sun com not only are they leafs the best team but their fans are even more intelligent and insightful than pittsburgh their players are mighty bright too mean really was going get his wallet back right jan brittenson leaf pen woofers rec sport hockey
rec.sport.hockey	list tee times metropolitan toronto golf courses for monday article apr julian uwo lee gaul csd uwo steve lee writes article spec euc noose ecn purdue edu stamber rainbow ecn purdue edu kevin stamber writes kevin stamber purdue university and phil kirzyc the kielbasa kid will roam the arena for interviews woops this rec sport hockey not rec sport golf hope you check the newsgroup header next time before posting steve the leaf play like they did game one they going need these watching that game really hurt cheers ingo sunee uwaterloo the more violent the body iwweigel descartes uwaterloo contact the sports you ingo electrical watstar uwaterloo watch the lower your class iwweigele electrical watstar uwaterloo paul fussell the university waterloo had opinion this probably wouldn
rec.sport.hockey	espn cares less about hockey espn pathetic have been watching everybody complain about espn coverage and agree with all you might suggest that are getting all worked over nothing all knew that espn coverage was going suck mean have you ever watched during the regular season sportscenter coverage hockey sucks mean really sucks espn does not know hockey shot them the ass was really pissed about last night coverage school ohio know the indians suck why show them were bill clement would shoot myself anyway after calmed down after realized that they were not going show overtime the caps isles game thought myself knew that this was going happen fact remerbed myself praying that least they would keep even the boring devils game overall think espn does not care they show hockey not and firmly belive that they have know respect for the fans because contract obligations screw you espn praise all hockey fans who put with this shit hawks
rec.sport.hockey	montreal canadiens are there any montreal canadiens fans out there who can let the radio station which are playing the playoff series including short wave radio frequencies lewisburg home bucknell university definitely not hockey town please send responses malinich bucknell edu thanks
rec.sport.hockey	wjr boston the boston area you can hear the rangers wfan and the devils wabc the whalers wtic and the red wings wjr this course addition the bruins who are currently weei but may move whdh because the fools weei are owned the celtics and thus will show them over the bruins every time there conflict you can also get wbal baltimore but don think they have hockey btw once got station from indiana that had fort wayne comets games
rec.sport.hockey	espn sucks baseball guess which article aty ccu umanitoba umturne ccu umanitoba writes showing meaningless relatively baseball game over the overtime game that was tied with less than seconds left the clock what actually happened after the pens game turned espn and the game was nearly the end regular then the phone rang turened off the later when turned back the indians were then little later the hockey games was again then the baseball game what was actually not that matters any more but some hockey was deed
rec.sport.hockey	peter forsberg article cvincent poolman ucs mun cvincent morgan ucs mun carl vincent writes article apr spang camosun freenet victoria tom moffat says can some give some stats forsrg the world championships sao mail freenet victoria tom moffat victoria canada here are the top point getters the world hockey championships forsberg swe sooo glad have both these guys naslund swe rotisserrie team but then again mario vyborny cze slo bure gretzky neely turgeon damphousse sundstrom swe lebeau and juneau dunno how much time lehtinen fin they get
rec.sport.hockey	octopus detroit valerie hammerl hammerl acsu buffalo edu wrote article apr news clarkson edu farenebt logic camp clarkson edu droopy writes fact the tradition has been passed down their affiliate adirondack last finals legged creature was hurled onto the frozen pond and landed right the feet ref lance roberts may have been passed toronto but even seen octopus the aud last year bruins sabres game knew all about the detroit version but seeing the aud was bit puzzling don think puzzling bit called unoriginality not bitter bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac and boston bruins contact for rec sport hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey division state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	nhl playoffs results for games played nhl playoff results for conference semi finals best seven patrick adams norris smythe buf leads stl leads win pit leads bos chi van leads nyi tied mon tor leads was que leads det leads cal new jersey devils pittsburgh penguins leads series period pit mceachern francis taglianetti pit lemieux samuelsson barrasso period pit tocchet stevens samuelsson pit jagr francis ramsey pit stevens francis murphy pit mceachern daniels mullen period pit mullen francis barrasso powerplay opportunities devils penguins shots goal devils penguins new jersey devils terreri shots saves billington third shots saves pittsburgh penguins barrasso shots saves att new york islanders series tied washington capitals period nyi turgeon king thomas period was hunter johansson miller nyi turgeon thomas vaske was hunter johansson carpenter period nyi hogue was khristich cavallini bondra nyi ferraro flatley hogue was hunter johansson khristich overtime none overtime nyi mullen ferraro flatley powerplay opportunities islanders capitals shots goal islanders capitals new york islanders healy shots saves washington capitals tabaracci shots saves att montreal canadiens quebec nordiques leads series period que leschyshyn kamensky sakic que young lapointe que young lapointe duchesne period none period mon bellows odelein que lapointe ricci powerplay opportunities canadiens nordiques shots goal canadiens nordiques montreal canadiens roy shots saves quebec nordiques hextall shots saves att buffalo sabres leads series boston bruins period buf presley buf wood houlder sweeney period buf mogilny lafontaine period buf hawerchuk carney smehlik powerplay opportunities sabres bruins shots goal sabres bruins buffalo sabres fuhr shots saves boston bruins moog shots saves blue second shots saves att spike
rec.sport.hockey	espn cares less about hockey jbrown vax cns muskingum edu writes espn pathetic have been watching everybody complain about espn coverage and agree with all you might suggest that are getting all worked over nothing all knew that espn coverage was going suck mean have you ever watched during the regular season sportscenter coverage hockey sucks mean really sucks espn does not know hockey shot them the ass was really pissed about last night coverage school ohio know the indians suck why show them were bill clement would shoot myself hope this makes you feel better but the overtime between the isles and the caps was great hang there
rec.sport.hockey	sharks kingston fired nlu xenon stanford edu nelson writes and cherbayev was initially supposed play for the russian team anybody know what happened there yeah they finally came agreement contract soon the ink was dry suddenly decided kansas city was neat place ergo the want play for the national team was bargaining chip chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd
rec.sport.hockey	area code for edmonton alberta canada believe not have phone books but the current information does not include area code for edmonton alberta would not hostile towards others for asking simple questions would rather appear stupid than open moutha remove all doubt mark twain you assult someone you get years hockey minutes this great sport what kevin frank kfrank magnus acs ohio state edu
rec.sport.hockey	buffalo sabres can the sabres win two more games against the bruins think game three buffalo will the most important the series the sabres lose that game the party will over will hello next year the key for the remaining games the series will whether fuhr can keep his brillliant goaltending and mogilny can continue skate the bruins has shown demonstrated excellent speed finally the sabres appear have shown for the post season sabres bills fan
rec.sport.hockey	you were pat burns were pat burns throw the towel the wings dominated every aspect the game trying mix the lines dead end murray has too many combinations counter with prediction wings mark let wings
rec.sport.hockey	grant fuhr leads sabres buffalo the series with boston and the reason grant fuhr fuhr playoff hungry and proving once again why they call him money goaltender fuhr might not one the best goaltenders the league anymore statistically least but proving that can make the big save the right time the leafs should have kept fuhr and probably would have had chance against powerhouse detroit but again where was andreychoke game can see the huge smile gerald face after fuhr performance joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	goodbye good riddance get lost stars article apr julian uwo kirk gaul csd uwo andrew kirk writes back hockey the north stars should moved because for the past few years they have just been shit real team like toronto would never moved well shit means going the stanley cup finals couple years ago rather shit than leaf fan skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite braves effect you mike patton faith more hornets capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	don cherry help out here article mfpirbo wbli ispc andrew cmu edu william willis andrew cmu edu writes person who has rarely even seen don cherry and doesn know anything about him don know whether just this area pittsburgh the usa that deprived his broadcasts whether canadian thing altogether seriously what all about know was coach one time and from the volume posts about him someone surely getting steady diet him somehow but question what the deal with him secondly are the comments his that read about the net merely flame bait people actually take him seriously gotta tell you from what see really sounds like ass let know maybe missing something asked him and don cherry denies being roger maynard and denies any knowledge usenet did concede that roger the best two way poster the net today his defense good his offence
rec.sport.hockey	area code for edmonton alberta canada article apr magnus acs ohio state edu kfrank magnus acs ohio state edu kevin frank writes trying get ahold the directory assistance operator edmonton but need the area code you know please mail directly have little time scan through all the posts much appreciated geez didn realize things were bad ohio state that they can afford phone books even operators this probably clinton fault isn paul badertscher uwovax uwo
rec.sport.hockey	cbc canadian for espn hooray hear tsn that the jets have won game selanne getting hat trick course here god country read ontario couldn see that game nor any other the van wpg series far because our beloved cbc figures one out here cares about this series which has looked pretty competitve far monday and wednesday nights cbc could have shown the toronto detroit game done the news then picked winnipeg vancouver they didn tonight you guessed toronto detroit the news not the end the jets game then calgary hockey night canada why can this ontarian see one the two series with two canadian teams this too much ask paul badertscher uwovax uwo
rec.sport.hockey	jets canucks jets hold win teemu selanne had goals keith tkachuk had one and luciano borsato scored rare jets shorthanded goal the jets held beat the canucks and close the series trevor linden and pavel bure had two goals each for the canucks losing cause selanne came out two game goal scoring slump scoring two powerplay goals and one nice breakaway pass from darrin shannon hard work paid off tonight for the jets and the jets continue exhibit this strong work effort they can make series woofed last year when were ain going that again have quietly happy with solid performance daryl turner contact for the winnipeg jets internet umturne ccu umanitoba fidonet please route through tkachuk over zhamnov sel nne shoots scores the jets win the cup the jets win the cup essensa for vezina housley for norris sel nne for calder
rec.sport.hockey	sharks jack feirerra was sharks kingston fired broadcast more home games than away games broadcast very few road pacific and mountain time games jack ticket prices from two years not that going pay bucks for seats probably next the virtual folks not tell priority not let sell priority order for get the free jacket force order tickets for next season before get select section not let park the new arena after paying for their grrrr let start whole nother topic show bad the sharks are doing these things swear that all partial plan games were televised know exaggerating but order the new ticket prices suck wait till people try park games next year public transit yeah right love take caltrain for hours see hour game shelling out hundreds dollars for partial season plans for two years doesnt mean anything the sharks get pick seats after the dead rise from their graves claim their seats frank frank giraffe fgiraffe well apple pacbell ucbvax well fgiraffe the noose narco militarism tightens round our necks worry about burning flags and pee jars work keep our jobs jello biafra
rec.sport.hockey	don cherry help out here article mfpirbo wbli ispc andrew cmu edu william willis andrew cmu edu writes person who has rarely even seen don cherry and doesn know anything about him don know whether just this area pittsburgh the usa that deprived his broadcasts whether canadian thing altogether seriously what all about canadian thing former coach the boston bruins and colorado rockies from the summaries that get posted gather that his ongoing beef this year has been the conventional wisdom that canadian hockey doomed second third rate behind the perceived emergence the and european programs know was coach one time and from the volume posts about him someone surely getting steady diet him somehow but question what the deal with him secondly are the comments his that after left the rockies got job with cbc hockey night canada and hasn looked back since actually did work for cbc least playoff season after the rockies were eliminated read about the net merely flame bait people actually take him seriously gotta tell you from what see really sounds like say combination flame bait and serious journalism the closest thing you find cherry the stan fischler self described hockey maven the similarities are that they both say things that get people upset the difference that cherry knows the game and fischler doesn ass let know maybe missing something don character were completely rational and noncontroversial wouldn have job some definitions could called ass but then some people feel the same about mike lang another character that wish would get wider exposure only one national telecast last year mike eisler mre eng sun com not only are they leafs the best team but their fans are even more intelligent and insightful than pittsburgh their players are mighty bright too mean really was going get his wallet back right jan brittenson leaf pen woofers rec sport hockey
rec.sport.hockey	goalie mask poll update current votes for favorite goalie masks pts pts player team pts votes belfour chicago andy moog boston curtis joseph louis brian hayward san jose ron hextall quebec gerry cheevers boston retired john vanbeisbrouck rangers grant fuhr buffalo mike richter rangers manon rheaume atlanta ihl don beaupre washington ken dryden montreal retired others receiving less than pts mike vernon cal clint malarchuk buf ihl tommy soderstrom phil ray leblanc usa artus irbe tim cheveldae det sean burke rick wamsley tor ret jon casey minn bob essensa win glenn healy nyi toy espo gilles gratton rod stauber gump worsley pat jablonski grant fuhr tor felix potvin tor stephane beauregard win mark fitzpatrick nyi chico resch nyi can someone please tell which teams the play for thanks skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite braves effect you mike patton faith more hornets capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	nhl team captains for more captain trivia the next edmonton catain was lee fogilin who was later traded the buffalo sabres after him was wayne gretzky who traded then came kevin low who nly this year was traded the rangers wasn mark messier captain the oilers before kevin lowe but course was traded well your point every oilers captain being traded still true stephen legge slegge kean ucs mun
rec.sport.hockey	espn really sucks big time all hockey automobile racing fans all know exactly where stand espn delays the martinsville race day for the nfl draft espn shows baseball instead the overtime nhl playoff game gimme break guys does anyone know why this race tape delay especially until monday this the weekend for the nfl draft postponing the race for day real slap the face for racing fans afraid you right usual recall they been doing this ever since they started covering the draft live wish they could work out some kind deal with somebody else such tnn get the race live but guess espn isn much into sharing also clarifies where auto racing stands their priority list didn already know charlie shub cdash colorado edu leave the university iowa cdash uiowa edu
rec.sport.hockey	goodbye good riddance get lost stars article apr julian uwo kirk gaul csd uwo andrew kirk writes losers like you are the fucking moron who has never heard the western business school the university western ontario for that matter why don you pull your head out your asshole and smell something other than shit for once you can look map see where uwo back hockey the north stars should moved because for the past few years they have just been shit real team like toronto would never moved not only have not heard the western business school the university western ontario never even wondered there was western ontario and judging the quality the posts coming from there still not sure that the place exists perhaps should impressed though since appears that grade school children that area have access the internet rick
rec.sport.hockey	don cherry help out here william willis andrew cmu edu writes person who has rarely even seen don cherry and doesn know anything about him don know whether just this area pittsburgh the usa that deprived his broadcasts whether canadian thing altogether seriously what all about know was coach one time and from the volume posts about him someone surely getting steady diet him somehow but question what the deal with him secondly are the comments his that read about the net merely flame bait people actually take him seriously gotta tell you from what see really sounds like ass let know maybe missing something from his topps rookie year coach card for the past couple seasons don has been the highly successful coach the rochester americans the ahl but getting his first shot nhl job with the bruins named coach the year the ahl the last two years and aims make the bruins rough team again they were couple years back although played seasons professional hockey don never played regular season nhl game did appear one playoff game for boston don brother dick played two seasons the nhl with boston and philadelphia mark mckinzie listen they going buy lunch boxes mckinzie math wisc edu they might well buy david cassidy lunch boxes dept mathematics madison david cassidy
rec.sport.hockey	usenet hockey draft final standings here are the final stadings for the usenet hockey draft congratulations this year winner dave wessels victoria who parlayed his initial points into points thanks all teams for entering the biggest usenet hockey draft ever hope hear from you all again this september for the annual draft has been pleasure running the draft and hope you all had fun andrew usenet hockey draft standings week posn team total pts cash last posn dave wessels gilles carmel bob hill seppo kemppainen the awesome oilers hillside raiders mak the knife paranjape jan stein this years model tapio repo rangers destiny the underachievers frank big fish flames thin ice mopar muscle men littlest giants lindros losers die penguin bandwaggoners samuel lau calgary alberta boomer boys delaware wombats general accounting office migods menschen wellsy buttheads dec fife flyers rocky mountain high dave snell fluide glacial gerald olchowy gaoler smegheads neural netters the young and the skateless sam his dogs artic storm youngbucs soft swedes simmonac milton keynes kings jeff horvath legion hoth fleur lys yan the man loke kuehn crushers hamster from hoboken streaks brian bergman the finnish force grant marven ice legion goaldingers overachievers randy coulman bozrah bruins skriko wolves buffalo soldiers houdini magicians steven and mark dream team real bad toe jam rec sport hockey choices bemybaby lamp lighters lippe phil and kev karma dudes doug bowles bloom county all stars tom indianapolis bennies bruins smithw aik exiles iowa hockeyes frank worthless the great pumpkin non shooting seamen invisible inc brad gibson cougarmania john zupancic david wong garryola gary bergman fan club staffan axelsson kortelaisen kovat chocolate rockets plp fools the kamucks chubby checkers kodiaks derrill dastardly dozen ken decruyenaere fisher dirtbags neil younger bsc oranienburg namers arsenal maple leafs the campi machine mombasa mosquitos bjoern leaguen ellis islanders zachmans wingers king suke larry votenooct bloodgamers het schot hard hurricane andrew dirty white socks wormtown woosbags bruce rented mules oklahoma stormchasers teem kanada edelweiss frank follies pond slime spuds psv dartmouth kokudo keikaku bunnies blue talon stanford ice hawks timo ojala mark sanders aye carumba dirty rotten puckers garys team cluster buster haral apricot fuzzfaces gary bill pens dynasty seattle pftb nesbitt the lost poots groupe arctic circles late night with david letterman wembley lostweekenders wild hearted sons dree hobbs closet boy boys scott glenn bruins andy wong book danno bushbabies mckees rocks rockers boutch team gold goddess fermentation convex stars flying kiwis einstein rock band joel fleishman tim rogers team tap sundogs buttered waffles habs princeton canucks hubert hockey homeboys satan choice bob blues les nordiques pierre mailhot furleys furies slap shot marco hunters collectors the dreamers san jose mahi mahi jeff nimeroff east city jokers the leafs rule darse billings flowers daryl turner lana inc riding the pine spinal tap stimpy adg zeta chappel chumps big bad bruins enforcers mike mac cormack sydney can jimparker bulldogs yellow plague jeff bachovchin absolut lehigh voyageurs republican dirty tricksters ninja turtles and the henry bar bunch misfits robyns team cobra killers cherry bombers kuta papercuts great expectations acadien darman dragons team melville killer apes kaufbeuren icebreakers jayson kinky pucks roger smith firebirds ikea wholesale umpire life those few weeks hurt outlaws hurricane frack attack believe dont todd turkeys thundering herd knee injuries the club fred mckim crazy euros creeping death ryan renegades pig vomit ice strykers dayton bomber cdn stuck alabama fighting geordies cafall and crew ship way zipper heads chris death banko beer rangers swillbellies laubsters ninja bunnies great scott joliet inmates flames sandy sabres widefield white wolves florida tech burgh team the ice holes south carolina tiger paws daves team mudville kings redliners roadrunners for xtc leos blue chips new jersey rob pat phillips stewart clamen demon spawn sunnyvale storm allez les blues for sale hockey club petes picks rinaco brenz revenge dinamo riga andrew scott andrew idacom com idacom telecom operation ext during the roman era was considered old
rec.sport.hockey	usenet hockey draft final point totals here are the final point totals for players chosen the usenet hockey draft note that only players scored more than points the minimum cost although different players were chosen andrew points team player pit mario lemieux buf pat lafontaine bos adam oates det steve yzerman wpg teemu selanne nyi pierre turgeon buf alexander mogilny tor doug gilmour luc robitaille phi mark recchi que mats sundin pit kevin stevens van pavel bure pit rick tocchet chi jeremy roenick stl craig janney que joe sakic bos joe juneau stl brett hull cgy theoren fleury pit ron francis tor dave andreychuk mtl vincent damphousse det dino ciccarelli wpg phil housley buf dale hawerchuk stl brendan shanahan mtl kirk muller pit jaromir jagr min mike modano nyr mark messier hfd geoff sanderson mtl brian bellows cgy robert reichel jari kurri nyi steve thomas det sergei fedorov det paul coffey brian bradley phi rod brind amour wsh peter bondra pit larry murphy hfd andrew cassels van cliff ronning wsh mike ridley tony granato que steve duchesne hfd pat verbeek bos ray bourque cgy gary suter claude lemieux mtl stephan lebeau alexander semak wsh kevin hatcher min russ courtnall wsh dale hunter que mike ricci kelly kisio stl jeff brown que owen nolan van murray craven van geoff courtnall nyr tony amonte nyi derek king min dave gagner phi eric lindros cgy joe nieuwendyk nyi benoit hogue tor nikolai borschevsky wsh michal pivonka min ulf dahlen jimmy carson stephane richer chi chris chelios stl nelson emerson wpg alexei zhamnov bos dmitri kvartalnov van trevor linden wpg thomas steen van petr nedved pit joe mullen chi steve larmer mike donnelly que andrei kovalenko nyr mike gartner wsh dmitri khristich wsh iafrate det ray sheppard johan garpenlov tor glenn anderson hfd zarley zalapski wayne gretzky nyr adam graves valeri zelepukin ott norm maciver phi kevin dineen det steve chiasson det paul ysebaert phi garry galley pit shawn mceachern mtl mike keane wpg darrin shannon nyi pat flatley bernie nicholls que scott young rob blake phi brent fedyk chi steve smith wsh pat elynuik scott stevens cgy sergei makarov wpg fredrik olausson van greg adams john tucker chi christian ruuttu chi brent sutter cgy macinnis nyr sergei nemchinov hfd terry yake nyr darren turcotte nyi vladimir malakhov van dixon ward tomas sandstrom bos stephen leach hfd patrick poulin wpg keith tkachuk nyi jeff norton mtl denis savard tor john cullen wsh sylvain cote nyr olczyk stl kevin miller bos dave poulin van anatoli semenov phi pelle eklund wpg evgeny davydov mtl gilbert dionne john maclean que martin rucinsky alexei zhitnik edm petr klima edm doug weight edm shayne corson edm craig simpson wsh kelly miller edm dave manson chi michel goulet mtl mathieu schneider det bob probert cgy paul ranheim ott sylvain turgeon min mark tinordi ott bob kudelski det niklas lidstrom ott brad shaw edm todd elik bos vladimir ruzicka min mike mcphee nyr esa tikkanen tor dave ellett peter stastny corey millen bobby holik buf yuri khmylev adam creighton tor wendel clark van sergio momesso nyr alexei kovalev tor rob pearson que valery kamensky chi dirk graham nyr brian leetch edm zdeno ciger tor peter zezel bos ted donato min neal broten hfd mikael nylander phi josef beranek chi stephane matteau edm scott mellanby det keith primeau buf wayne presley nyi brian mullen phi dmitri yushkevich mtl gary leeman buf richard smehlik bos steve heinze tor dmitri mironov chi brian noonan wsh bob carpenter pat falloon stl igor korolev mikael andersson nyi ray ferraro buf petr svoboda ott mark lamb nyr james patrick mtl benoit brunet nyi scott lachance tor bill berg edm martin gelinas wpg sergei bautin edm kevin todd nyi david volek nyi darius kasparaitis roman hamrlik min brent gilchrist nyr phil bourque det jim hiller phi andrei lomakin hfd yvon corriveau buf donald audette bos cam neely chi joe murphy mark pederson pit martin straka nyr peter andersson janne ojanen ott tomas jelinek min bobby smith steve kasper ray whitney hfd robert petrovicky buf viktor gordijuk tor joe sacco que mikhail tatarinov peter ahola chi rob brown bos glen murray min brian propp hfd tim kerr wsh reggie savage robert lang stl vitali prokhorov det viacheslav kozlov edm shaun van allen bos jozef stumpel min dan quinn pit bryan fogarty mtl olav petrov stan drulia claude vilgrain wsh jason woolley que peter forsberg wsh brian sakic wsh randy burridge mtl patrick kjellberg ott alexei yashin edm dean mcammond cgy cory stillman brent gretzky buf jason dawe van igor larionov chi sergei krivokrasov andrew scott andrew idacom com idacom telecom operation ext during the roman era was considered old
rec.sport.hockey	german audience lunatic article apr ousrvr oulu golf phoenix oulu jouko kylmaoja writes watched the game germany czechs today and was astonished about the behaviour the german audience the german team got few penalties the last period and the crowd went was not just those penalties most all was the penalty the referee didn call the czechs right before their first goal grazy they threw coins extra pucks and other trash into the rink that stupid what guess the canadian referee one the isostar bros gave the german team penalty for that but didn help much guess the germans just are proud over their nazi kill all everyone don you think quite silly call nazi attitude when some people throw coins the ice hey don approve the behavior these guys especially not game but can see any reason for using the word nazi this connection but germans sucks attitude they just seem have that kind attitude every possible sport remember the european champs stockholm soccer soccer hooligans are not just german problem remember the world cup italy again there big difference between throwing coins and smashing shop windows fighting with other called fans who come just see the dutch the english the germans are the best bruisers which other sports are you talking about don think soccer every possible sport really pisses off not mean that every single german has this attitude that sucks but most them seem how many germans you know you think out most them you hear about some white policemen beating black man the what you think about the americans most them like beating blacks jokke kylmaoja golf phoenix oulu robert
rec.sport.hockey	buffalo boston defense article acsu buffalo edu nnc ubvmsd buffalo edu bungle writes like see some playoff games since stuck buffalo but think boston isn giving easy boston probably won down easy but the sabres hadn won game one buffalo would have been out four and what problem are you having with playoff games here buffalo there the sabres bruins quebec montreal and whatever espn and abc show and opposite nights there toronto detroit and whatever espn abc shows more hockey than good chunk north america either side the border wonderful and there are thousands folks who kill your shoes coverage wise valerie hammerl john would lift pat over the boards grab hammerl acsu buffalo edu his hand and start running around the outside pwpz ubvms buffalo edu faster and faster wanted learn how get that feeling and the only way was learn how skate lafontaine
rec.sport.hockey	final regular season individual goalie stats what about including points probably goals least against opponents but there have been several assists given ian neath there are four kinds people this world neath psych purdue edu cretins fools morons and lunatics eco
rec.sport.hockey	canucks score help stuck here computer new jersey and have access radio could someone kindly post the score the canucks jets game thanks advance mark
rec.sport.hockey	camera work televised games just the camera work some these games really sad can remember how many times during the penguins devils game they showed some guy without the puck being checked the corner while the puck was being fired goal fact think they even missed one goal completely because they were showing two guys holding each other the corner now the last time watched football game they didn show the lineman going while the running back turned the corner for touchdown just greg
rec.sport.hockey	sharks review part left wings article apple com chuq apple com chuq von rospach writes nlu xenon stanford edu nelson writes dody wood season acquired round pick entry draft grade although perhaps shouldn give grade all have been accused knocking wood too much you nah was seriously unimpressive even tough guy his rep however few games had season that was that point meaningless hate judge the talent too quickly butn dody case tempted make exception but won wood played most his junior career seattle was one the leading scorers mediocre team when was traded away rarely lost fight and was one the toughest players the whl however was extremely surprised when was drafted especially the third round certainly didn look like nhl material paul brownlow visualize data corp redmond whirled paul data com peas
rec.sport.hockey	nhl draft article apr newshub ariel yorku ariel yorku shawn luddington writes tampa bay will either for russian kozlov think that defenseman rob niedemeyer probably spelt the last name wrong rob niedermayer forward center think with the whl medicine hat tigers his brother scott defenseman now with the devils paul brownlow visualize data corp redmond whirled paul data com peas
rec.sport.hockey	espn okay here some gripe ing griping whatever live santa barbara for reference think okay abc showed the kings flames fine yawn espn through fortunate rainout baseball game showed the red wings toronto game cool but swear that the advertisements all week long had said that espn would show pitt tuesday and bos buff thursday raced home from work early pacific catch the game but alas was the boston buffalo game and then they promised that they would show the pitt game thursday overnight they changed their mind didn mind that much watched the game hockey much better than hockey during the game their were video highlights from the patrick division what the hell was going least they should show video highlights the other games especially the nyi caps game that was close father lives bowling green kentucky bumbf egypt got watch the pens game espn just don get the biggest problem that buffalo boston fans who didn want see the pittsburgh new jersey game will turn their tvs thursday and see the pittsburgh new jersey game instead the buffalo boston game least case just had wait more days see game were big boston buffalo fan and missed the game tuesday due false advertising the part espn mad hell well hopefully get better coverage next year something matt coohill the announcers for the buffalo boston were the worst that have ever heard far emotion goes they had the enthusiasm droopy dog hope for better thursday
rec.sport.hockey	oilers for sale bart splunge uucp barton oleksy writes yadalle ualberta yadallee dave writes here one from the mill the oilers might move hamilton where porklington can get free deal given what labour relations and puck has been like would sigh relief this way can can both elements well dave would have disagree with you there satan himself could own the team and happy long the oilers stayed edmonton selfish but true don want see the oilers move matter who their owner bart bart splunge uucp barto nait too the same sentiment bart but realistically this town doesn want pay for quality player and hence are loosing these people left right and center labour also responsible for their boycott pocklington movement would like the oilers stay but realistically given this situation bye bye oilers dave shariff yadallee econ math alberta yadalle amisk ualberta god save the queen god bless all remember jesus saves lives from eternal damnation newfoundland keep good old clyde vote liberal
rec.sport.hockey	ulf crushes valeri zelepukin article newsserver pixel kodak com clare ssd kodak com bill clare writes that more less says flicked the penguins game briefly and saw ulf cross check valeri the face wondering don cherry going off this all coach corner nah cherry will only spew ulf was nailing good canadian boy what idiot this the heart and soul canadian patriotism then someone needs new hobby the devils advocate drinkin women guns don mix ubvms buffalo edu awkorbut acsu buffalo edu mark arm
rec.sport.hockey	nhl playoff results for games played april nhl playoff results for games played april conference semi finals best seven patrick adams norris smythe buf leads stl leads win pit leads bos chi van leads nyi leads mon tor was que leads det leads cal tied detroit red wings lead series toronto maple leafs dave andreychuk scored his first two playoff goals for toronto and felix potvin stopped red wing shots the maple leafs won their first win the series first period toronto andreychuk foligno gilmour toronto andreychuk gilmour second period detroit fedorov coffey sheppard third period toronto clark gilmour mironov toronto pearson clark cullen detroit chiasson konstantinov fedorov shots goal detroit toronto power play opportunities detroit toronto goalies detroit cheveldae shots saves toronto potvin referee mark faucette linesmen kevin collins brian murphy chicago blackhawks louis blues lead series curtis joseph blanked the blackhawks for the second straight game and brett hull scored goal and added assist lead the blues series lead chicago hasn scored play since brian noonan hat trick goal game first period louis janney hull brown second period louis hull miller third period louis emerson felsner shanahan shots goal chicago louis power play opportunities chicago louis goalies chicago belfour shots saves louis joseph referee dan marouelli linesmen randy mitton shane heyer vancouver canucks lead series winnipeg jets teemu selanne broke out his mini slump with hat trick including the game winner lead the jets victory trevor linden and pavel bure each scored twice for the losing canucks first period winnipeg tkachuk housley winnipeg selanne housley shannon vancouver bure winnipeg selanne shannon housley second period vancouver linden ronning lumme vancouver linden adams slegr third period winnipeg borsato steen winnipeg selanne shannon vancouver bure babych lidster shots goal vancouver winnipeg power play opportunities vancouver winnipeg goalies vancouver mclean shots saves winnipeg essensa referee kerry fraser linesmen gord broseker dan schachte calgary flames lead series los angeles kings boxscore tomorrow saturday april washington islanders islanders lead series est boston buffalo buffalo leads series est quebec montreal quebec leads series est sunday april pittsburgh new jersey pittsburgh leads series est chicago louis louis leads series est calgary los angeles calgary leads series est detroit toronto detroit leads series est vancouver winnipeg vancouver leads series est jpc john curcio bruins philips laboratories jpc philabs philips com scarborough road briarcliff manor
rec.sport.hockey	thumbs espn article apr wuecl wustl edu jca cec wustl edu joseph charles achkar says was nice see espn show game between the wings and leafs since the cubs and astros got rained out instead showing another baseball game they decided the stanley cup playoffs classy move espn was classy move but looks like espn going devote most the coverage the pens tuesday night they continued broadcast the pen devil game even though pittsburgh had the game well control granted they did show some bonus coverage the caps and isles but they cut away from the close game which went into double update the fifth goal the rout thursday was good game even was the second straight game between the pens and devils imho they should program some variety into the telecasts yes know the game shown saturday between the and sabres probably throwing bone bruin fans and what about the cambell conference like see game the norris smythe why not have back back nights national hockey night just thought ryan
rec.sport.hockey	nhl playoff leaders with penalty mins april player team pts pim lemieux pit francis pit oates bos yzerman det coffey det hunter was mogilny buf thomas nyi lapointe que johansson was carson brown stl fleury cal courtnall van flatley nyi macinnis cal ferraro nyi mceachern pit neely bos turgeon nyi bellows mon jagr pit khmylev buf khristich was hawerchuk buf hogue nyi juneau bos stevens pit murphy pit lafontaine buf ramsey pit smehlik buf noonan chi gilmour tor hull stl otto cal reichel cal bure van drake det linden van nieuwendyk cal roberts cal young que sweeney buf stevens tocchet pit carpenter was mullen pit ronning van suter cal yawney cal adams van chiasson det craven van cullen tor dahlquist cal king win racine det rychel shanahan stl sheppard det sydor barnes win emerson stl gill tor granato gretzky housley win janney stl king nyi kozlov det sandstrom shuchuk vaske nyi damphousse mon elynuik was guerin hannan buf holik muller mon sakic que semak sundin que taglianetti pit tipett pit barasso pit bondra was carney buf cavallini was desjardins mon duchesne que niedermayer ricci que ridley was samuelsson pit blake borschevsky tor zelepukin mullen nyi burr det domi win fedorov det felsner stl howe det huddy kurri lefebvre tor lidstrom det lowry stl mcsorley millen mironov tor numminen win paslawski cal steen win ysebaert det anderson tor berube cal chelios chi ciccarelli det clark tor dahl cal dipietro mon donnelly ellett tor gallant det brown chi kennedy det larmer chi matteau chi mclean van mcrae stl murzyn van musil cal pearson tor primeau det probert det ranheim cal robitaille roenick chi selanne win shannon win skrudland cal sutter chi taylor zhitnik barr bourque bos burridge was dionne mon heinze bos leschyshyn que presley buf rucinsky que smolinski bos wood buf brunet mon daniels pit donato bos driver gusarov que houlder buf samuelsson pit kamensky que krygier was loney pit may was miller was odelein mon pivonka was shaw bos straka pit belanger mon chorske druce win eagles win errey buf ewen mon foligno tor goulet chi grimson chi hughes bos kovalenko que leeman mon mcllwain tor osbourne tor richer roberge mon schneider mon watters weimer bos andreychuk tor ashton cal babych van baron stl bassen stl baumgartner tor bautin win belfour chi berg tor billington blue bos borsato win bozon stl butcher stl cheveldae det conacher corkum buf diduck van dirk van erickson win essensa win gilbert chi graham chi hardy hedican stl hrudey lemieux chi johansson cal joseph stl kasatonov kennedy win konstantinov det krushelnyski tor lidster van lumme van macoun tor marchment chi miller stl momesso van moog bos muni chi murphy chi murray chi nedved van olausson win pearson que potvin tor quintal stl ramage mon sutter stl rouse tor russell chi ruuttu chi richer bos smith chi sandlak van semenov van stern cal hunter van sweeney bos terreri tkachuk win ulanov win valk van vernon cal wilson stl zezel tor zhamnov win zombo stl albelin anderson was audette buf bodger buf brisebois mon lemieux carbonneau mon cavallini que cote was sweeney bos daigneault mon dalgarno nyi daneyko douris bos fetisov finn que fitzgerald nyi foote que fuhr buf roberts bos haller mon hatcher was healy nyi hextall que hough que iafrate was jennings pit jones was kasparaitis nyi keane mon kimble bos krupp nyi kvartalnov bos leclair mon leach bos lebeau mon ledyard buf loiselle nyi maclean malakov nyi may buf mckay nicholls nolan que norton nyi patterson buf pilon nyi poulin bos roy mon savard mon simon que stapleton pit stastny sutton buf green nyi tabaracci was vukota nyi wesley bos wolanin que maurice richard
rec.sport.hockey	sharks jack feirerra was sharks kingston fired mre teal eng sun com mike eisler writes been loyal ticket holder since day literally spring when the team was announced and not getting that loyalty returned well are and see completely different than you guess matter perspective chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd
rec.sport.hockey	blues shutout hawks again lead series blues shutout hawks again lead series was great atmosphere last night the louis arena joseph and the blues shutout the hawks for the second consecutive game people were cheering the blues long before face off time and they kept going for the entire game friends and went out celebrating until the early morning hours with some the players here game summary from the louis post disptach enjoy dave luecking the post dispatch staff friday night the arena crowd paid homage blues goalie curtis joseph the fans began bowing their arms extended taking the the lead from fan who held sign that read only god saves more than joseph was fitting tribute joseph who has brought the blues the verge surprising sweep joseph recorded his second successive shutout friday blanking the blackhawks game the norris division semifinals and giving the blues lead the best seven series the blackhawks haven scored against joseph since the mark the second period game joseph has shut out the blackhawks for minutes seconds blues record jacques plante held the previous record set the first round the playoffs against the philadelphia flyers one only two series the blues have sweeped their history the blues can wrap their first sweep since with victory game nationally televised game that begins noon sunday the blues have had only two sweeps franchise history both when they swept philadelphia and los angeles route the stanley cup finals the shutout friday was easier than wednesday game when joseph had make saves this time the blues held the shots down and the blackhawks couldn touch joseph well they touched joseph numerous times shoving him and pushing him every opportunity try get him off his game but joseph and the blues were unfazed dishing out their own punishment along the way the blues grinders bob bassen rich sutter kevin miller and dave lowry wore down the blackhawks taking the visitors from chicago off their game the grinders set the stage for the glamour boys the gifted playmakers and scorers who made the most their opportunities craig janney brett hull and nelson emerson scored getting one goal each period hull assisted janney first period power play goal after two unwise chicago penalties checker miller set hull goal the second period and rookie denny felsner assisted for emerson who scored the final period blues fans jumped their feet celebration that goal and began yelling sweep sweep sweep they also taunted chicago goalie belfour bell four bell four they also chanted hey hey good bye such talk tad premature there still one game left but the blues are roll they have the blackhawks their heels the blues set the tone early friday with two crunching hits the first minute play rich sutter leveled bryan marchment and brendan shanahan dumped steve smith center ice chicago tried retaliate but troy murray decision run into joseph backfired referee dan marouelli gave him roughing penalty the blues didn get shot goal the power play and they survived scare after chicago killed the penalty when rick zombo gave the puck away steve larmer joseph stopped larmer shot and everything else chicago threw him the first period the hawks ignored the scouting report joseph about shooting high and continued shoot low where joseph butterfly style deadly rookie bret hedican picked three consecutive penalties midway through the period two for hooking and one for holding but chicago got only two shots goal many miller the blues penalty killer twice stole the puck and just missed good scoring chances against belfour marouelli began calling penalties the blackhawks even things caught brent sutter hooking shanahan four seconds after hedican third penalty called marchment for elbowing janney along the boards and gave the blues two man advantage later when christian ruuttu slashed shanahan the blues worked around the puck the ensuing power play and hull got where likes the high slot hull shot hit belfour right shoulder and the puck bounced precariously close the goal line belfour dived back cover but the puck squirted loose janney who poked into the net for his first goal the playoffs the blues continued their relentless hitting the period ended and the blackhawks lost their composure joe murphy tripped ron wilson with two seconds remaining the period and after time had expired smith upset the blues shooting the puck into the blues bench chris chelios made move toward joseph the teams left the ice and marouelli slapped him with minute misconduct chicago survived the blues power play but the loss chelios hurt didn return until the midway point the period and within three minutes his return hull had increased the blues lead deflecting miller crisp pass try they might the blackhawks couldn get joseph who stopped everything they could throw him stopped shots the second period and more the third chicago also hit the goalpost twice emerson goal put the game away went hard the net and redirected felsner pass joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	espn tell about article usenet ins cwru edu mac cwru edu michael cornell writes the usa today says late this year the question will hockey moved espn permenantly will where they have game the week espn and have bunch other games espn yes and espn will launched early september cap cities are currently working with cable companies ensure good start base needed for launch for any brand new cable service the problem espn faces the tci cablevision connection the merger their prime and sportschannel networks prime sportschannel will try wrestle away nhl from espn the off season also tci and cablevision have control large number cable systems around the country with total million subscribers tci cablevision will their best that espn never gets off the ground successfully and the nhl value will suddenly skyrocket this cable war between prime and espn nhl more vital the survival regionalized prime sportschannel since they virtually have national major league sports contracts and only cover local nhl nba mlb sports teams ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	nhl team captains article apr mtroyal writes and while are the subject has captain ever been traded resigned been striped his title during the season any other team captain trivia would appreciated brad mccrimmon was the captain the flames when was traded detroit following the season this was during the off season though there countless examples captains being traded sure yeah think that the flames and the flyers traded captains once mel bridgeman for brad marsh craig
rec.sport.hockey	espn tell about nhmas gauss med harvard edu mark shneyder writes the problem espn faces the tci cablevision connection the merger their prime and sportschannel networks prime sportschannel will try wrestle away nhl from espn the off season also tci and cablevision have control large number cable systems around the country with total million subscribers tci cablevision will their best that espn never gets off the ground successfully and the nhl value will suddenly skyrocket this cable war between prime and espn nhl more vital the survival regionalized prime sportschannel since they virtually have national major league sports contracts and only cover local nhl nba mlb sports teams note that this ominous prospect fueled the fact that various and prime outlets are wholly partly owned local nhl owners when cablevision chuck dolan purchase the islanders goes through the islanders will back solidly the scny fold their original owners were and they remained due lucrative contract the flyer snyders own the philadelphia well the prism pay channel there are six teams affiliated with regional another half dozen affiliated with prime outlets and other locals like hts and nesn who have barter arrangements with all this cross ownership was surprised that espn got the deal this season gld souviens gary dare gld columbia edu winnipeg jets gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	leafs revenge tonight will see the toronto maple leafs some have guessed come out hitting the buds will grind detroit into the ground and walk away with home ice advantage for the remainder the series which given shift toronto will not last long keep mind this only predicition wendall will have get into the game however otherwise probert will dominate the physical front
rec.sport.hockey	nhl playoff results for games played april article apr philabs philips com jpc philabs philips com john curcio writes nhl playoff results for games played april conference semi finals best seven patrick adams norris smythe nyi leads mon tor was que leads det leads cal tied people not tied meant leads shoot you must jpc john curcio bruins philips laboratories jpc philabs philips com scarborough road briarcliff manor
rec.sport.hockey	college hockey all star game roster someone asked about the rosters for the college hockey senior all star shrine game held orono maine earlier this month west derek plante minn duluth west mvp the game greg johnson dakota bryan smolinski mich fred knipscheer cloud state chris campbell wisconsin superior glenn lang superior chris bergeron miami joe cook miami jamie erb bemidiji brett harkins bowling green david roberts michigan todd trettier stevens point john young mich tech brett hauer minn duluth pat neaton michigan barry richter wisconsin mike smith lssu chris valicevic mary shaun gravistin anchorage goalie tom newman minnesota bryan schoen denver ron mason mich coach steve nelson superior jim knapp minn duluth east jack duffy yale chris foy eastern scott meehan mass lowell aaron miller vermont kevin sullivan chris potter connecticut ray alcindor middlebury greg carvel lawrence bob cowan providence steve dubinksy clarkson dan gravelle merrimack ryan hughes cornell mark kauffman yale matt mallgrave harvard chris mcgee babson scott mcnair rit jim montgomery maine david sacco chris rogles clarkson goalie east mvp the game garth snow maine grant wood hamilton brian durocher brown coach shawn walsh maine bruce marshalll connecticut these are the original rosters there may have been few changes for the actual game guys not being able participate whatever bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac and boston bruins contact for rec sport hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey division state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	ahl playoff results thurs fri ahl playoff scores first round home team caps games played thurs rochester utica games played fri binghamton baltimore moncton john springfield providence series stati plural status adirondack defeated cdi springfield leads providence binghamton leads baltimore rochester leads utica john leads moncton cape breton leads fredericton bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac and boston bruins contact for rec sport hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey division state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	oiler rumour team moving press conference next week allan ualberta allan sullivan writes heard story the local sports news broadcast edmonton oiler owner peter pocklington will holding press conference next week while the exact details are not known believed concern the oiler future rumour has that pocklington signed tentative lease arrangement with copps collesium hamilton during the press conference pocklington may announce the deal quite possible that the deal may simply way force edmonton northlands renegotiate the oiler lease the stadium northlands has offered buy the oilers for million earlier but the offer was rejected immediately pocklington for opinion divided edmonton has been fairly supportive the oilers even though they small market team they had many sellouts the even with the problems that the team had this year they still brought more fans than many teams larger cities did the other hand the team does move there place more deserving than hamilton course how would that affect the grand realignment scheme bettman following this the provincial government has been asked the opposition block any deal that pocklington offering hamilton the government said that pock going nowhere why don believe the government wasn pocklington who wanted tory leader years ago dave shariff yadallee econ math alberta yadallee ersys edmonton god save the queen god bless all remember jesus saves lives from eternal damnation newfoundland keep good old clyde vote liberal
rec.sport.hockey	calder cup schedule full calder cup playoff schedule and results home team caps necesary first round springfield indians providence bruins springfield providence springfield providence providence springfield providence springfield springfield providence providence springfield springfield providence islanders adirondack red wings adirondack cdi adirondack cdi adirondack cdi adirondack cdi adirondack wins series baltimore skipjacks binghamton rangers baltimore binghamton binghamton baltimore binghamton baltimore binghamton baltimore baltimore binghamton binghmaton baltimore baltimore binghamton utica devils rochester americans utica rochester rochester utica rochester utica rochester utica utica rochester rochester utica utica rochester moncton hawks john maple leafs john moncton halifax john moncton halifax john moncton moncton john moncton john halifax john moncton moncton john halifax cape breton oilers fredericton canadiens fredericton cape breton cape breton fredericton cape breton fredericton cape breton fredericton cape breton fredericton fredericton cape breton cape breton fredericton note about this series the reports that has won this series but the original schedule game wasn supposed until tonight and only have the oilers being bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac and boston bruins contact for rec sport hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey division state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	potvin and his stick article netnews upenn edu kkeller mail sas upenn edu keith keller writes prefer watch hockey than seeing shots felix potvin slashing and spearing dino ciccerelli standing front the net has every right stand front the net just not the crease yes does but the goalie sure hell doesn want him there when played roller hockey boy miss those days goalie would scream defense clear guys out the slot don care the crease not get him the hell away from can see the ball yes roller hockey remember and there was nobody around clear the slot then myself pushing the offending player hard hate people way when the goalie and sure felix does too should say that didn see the incident potvin really swung the stick big time then that not right but can move people out the way player the ice too you know keith keller let rangers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs this corner let quakers weighing almost every weight imaginable life and all that surrounds blues traveler have agree wholeheartedly with this view don like see stickwork but you have clear players away from front personal favorite move goalie too give the offeding player good whack the back their skates when the ref isn looking makes down like ton bricks but doesn cause injuries unless they don know how fall talking about hitting the blades here not the foot also makes the player you hit and anyone who sees really mad and apt take stupid retaliation penalty unfortunately also leaves your blocker out position for short time don this shot likely the short side hmm maybe should mail potvin this method french and with helpful diagrams course sure would nice see ciccerelli who have great deal respect for btw not big guy but plays huge fall his back few times barfly
rec.sport.hockey	they real and they spectacular they real and they spectacular the blues shutout the blackhawks consecutive playoff games the blues sweep the hawks sunday will launch broom onto the ice the last seconds the game not that there anything wrong with that curtis joseph has been the master his own domain and the hawks have been shooting the puck like bunch chuckers not even superman could play any better goal joseph must have been eating his cereal like sauna here said spectator about the hot atmosphere and the wild crowd the arena was very refreshing see the blues double dip the hawks the hawks goons tried pick hull janney and joseph but the blues checking line nipped those hawks real well the fat yoyoma will sing sunday and the hawks will head the beach the hawks trip back chicago will feel like long journey from milan minsk enjoy sunday game with some junior mints and wash them down with snapple just little fun joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	stan fischler article apr news columbia edu gld cunixb columbia edu gary dare writes roger neilson not property among other rumours now the candidate coach the flyers and will bring along colin campbell his assistant this would dumb move the nineties lindros big and strong but why give him ball and chain one leg and anchor the other drag along compuware actively scouting phoenix for new team hey nick and jimmy buy the devils and fix them here please gld not pocklington gets there first actually pocklington doesn get better deal would probably hamilton taking the team out canada would get the whole country mad him taking the team hamilton wouldn get anybody mad him that isn mad him already and would make him lot friends southern ontario many that the whining the stupid politicians edmonton and the fickle spoiled fans wouldn noticed all edmonton would wallow anonymnity gerald
rec.sport.hockey	don nickname grapes was don cherry help out here georgeh gjhsun george writes lmarsha cms wayne edu laurie marshall writes don got his nickname grapes but not sure don use coach the boston bruins don know exactly when that was could someone fill this info think that the name grapes came because coach for the bruins the minors used chew grapes keep from getting dehydrated during the games his dog blue may have been named cause liked labatts beer anyone know about that according quotations from chairman cherry don was playing springfield and another player had pay some fines the other player had his paid off but not don didn want don called the other player teacher pet and the other player replied that just sour grapes don know how accurate that but that what printed
rec.sport.hockey	leafs win thank you potvin about time the boys got together they were outworked and outplayed the wings the first two games but burns must have kicked their behinds cause they sure came out full gear that high gear game except for minute stretch the period they outskated and outworked the wings please don flame this statement cos you know true have admit that goaltending was the key potvin kept the leafs ahead during the sleepy stretch the leafs went through the also kept the rebounds minimum something that cost cheveldae goals clark even looked like had stopped moping first star although still don know why was flat games and the leafs play the same style and can keep the pace they had game they may actually have chance winning this series slim chance but chance where anyways haha barfly
rec.sport.hockey	ahl leafs back home apparently the public workers strike john newfoundland over the strike has since mid january forced the john maple leafs hockey team play their home games other cities such toronto cornwall and charlottetown they have been playing their playoff home games halifax nova scotia leafs management said that they could return john for the second round bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac and boston bruins contact for rec sport hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey division state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	interview guests have you ever noticed that after hockey player has been interviewed between periods game that they usually get goal assist can you explain this that they usually talk stars more than regular players which explains the hight percentage results after just wondering how everybody else thinks about this they dont care about this trivial nonsense ttyl tom tom moffat victoria canada
rec.sport.hockey	sabres bruins buffalo fans some people the discussion group well commentator espn believe that game critical for the sabres helloooo the sabres are ahead games not behind life long sabres fan well aware their ability choke but let not exaggerate that long the sabres win one the next games game game they are still good shape ahead games with game played buffalo they lose games three and four then start worrying game critical for boston not buffalo rob andolina randolin polisci umn edu
rec.sport.hockey	buffalo boston defense article apr alchemy chem utoronto golchowy alchemy chem utoronto gerald olchowy writes fuhr proving the fuhr bashers wrong but boston awfully good team yeh but biran sutter playoff record the head coach wasn very impressive his blues teams were eliminated very early the playoffs doesn look like this trend will change with the bruins bruins have never come back win after falling behind their entire year history doesn look like buffalo will just lose their next two games the aud with the way fuhr has been standing his head basically the bruins will the golf course next weekend also seems like the whole boston area has gone baseball crazy after incredibly great start the red sox best record their major leagues now would say that the callers the bruins flagship station sportsradio are talking about the red sox about are yapping about the patriots upcoming draft are the celtics and about are the bruins somehow one around here really schocked the way bruins are folding early ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	upcoming schedule hey guess what coming espn for change playoff which doesn involve the pens not that there anything wrong with that espn games thursday game pens devils gary thorne and bill clement saturday game caps isles tom mees and john davidson abc game sunday game pens devils gary thorne and bill clement espn named its broadcast team tuesday paired tom mees play play with john davidson analyst ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	some play offs thoughts well almost halfway through the first round and far things are good general the teams that hate most chicago and basten are down zip even though there possibility either can still win their series yet this ego thrashing and arrogance smashing the underdogs louis and buffalo rewarding montreal this stage team life where they are not good enough all the way yet too good able get some really good draft picks just does anyone out there also think that this year the cup final should played between teams from the wales just because they playing montreal that find the diques arrogant are they really smythe what really getting sick seeing douggie and wendel night and night out should see some canucks jets flames action don cherry alright but hey are our politicians obleafsjoke what you get when you cross maple leaf and groundhog six more weeks crummy hockey dudes habs gooooooooooooooooooo jon shaib carleton freenet
rec.sport.hockey	nhl draft article apr newshub ariel yorku ariel yorku shawn luddington writes article maine maine edu jon carr maine maine edu writes when the draft this year and will there any coverage know the upcomming nfl draft espn anyone got the details paul kariya pick perhaps won last long don know the exact coverage the states canada covered tsn maybe espn will grab their coverage don know for the picks ottawa picks which means almost that alexander daigle will either stay traded montreal quebec imo would take kariya should alot leadership the ncaa and far the world championships daigle didn show this for his junior team san jose will then get kariya tampa bay will either for russian kozlov think that defenseman rob niedemeyer probably spelt the last name wrong the sharks appear leaning toward picking rob niedermayer center his brother scott defenseman picked couple years ago they brought him for physical tryout week ago from what have read niedermayer the best skater the draft plays both offense and defense and isn afraid physical play defensively the sharks are looking pretty good terms defense prospects rathje sykora ragnarsson and our centers kisio are getting old with all the small players the sharks have justs can see them picking yet another small player like kariya just get bashed the oppposition and get separated shoulder mark
rec.sport.hockey	espn article randolin polisci umn edu randolin polisci umn edu robert andolina writes the thing that confuses most about espn that they decided show the penguins and devils again thursday night being that both the first two games were dominated pitt you would think that they would show different game this addition the fact that they should show other games just for the sake fair exposure espn must have some very poor marketing people they are only concerned with featuring players mario than featuring good competitive hockey also some you should know that far can tell espn not going show campbell conference games regularly the first two rounds believe that they are only going show campbell games the first two rounds those series wear games perhaps games heard that this because most their market east coast and hence would prefer the wales stuff also don expect canadian teams espn summary you want see network that provides good hockey coverage watch cbc from canada they may biased toward canadian teams but they don treat the viewers like idiots they provide nice updates and don cherry will always provide few laughs
rec.sport.hockey	espn cares less about hockey article apr vax cns muskingum edu jbrown vax cns muskingum edu writes espn pathetic have been watching everybody complain about espn coverage and agree with all you might suggest that are getting all worked over nothing all knew that espn coverage was going suck mean have you ever watched during the regular season sportscenter coverage hockey sucks mean really sucks espn does not know hockey shot them the ass was really pissed about last night coverage school ohio know the indians suck why show them were bill clement would shoot myself anyway after calmed down after realized that they were not going show overtime the caps isles game thought myself knew that this was going happen fact remerbed myself praying that least they would keep even the boring devils game overall think espn does not care they show hockey not and firmly belive that they have know respect for the fans because contract obligations screw you espn praise all hockey fans who put with this shit hawks this the price hockey fans have pay for the mistake leaving espn years ago will take time correct for that mistake but returning espn was the correct decision last year next time may have the potential for sportschannel and espn really compete offer better coverage and forced deliver gerald
rec.sport.hockey	what rochester here are with the sabres the bruins and the sabres farm team the rochester amerks their way the calder cup urp and what kind hockey coverage are getting the same penguins devils every other day crap that everyone else gets what worse the sportschannel coverage the islanders appears blocked out since got cba basketball last night you can believe assume the sabres are demanding the blackout not espn since are unbelievably usually considered part the islanders territory msg coverage the rangers blacked out here this despite being solid seven hours plus from long island does anyone know what grc doing besides putting their satellite dish their ass and screwing reception channels and did empire demand fortune for the games what about the games fox whatever number there buffalo has anyone phoned complain besides george george ferguson arpa ferguson rochester edu dept computer science uucp rutgers rochester ferguson university rochester vox rochester fax
rec.sport.hockey	grant fuhr leads sabres article apr wuecl wustl edu jca cec wustl edu joseph charles achkar writes buffalo the series with boston and the reason grant fuhr fuhr playoff hungry and proving once again why they call him money goaltender fuhr might not one the best goaltenders the league anymore statistically least but proving that can make the big save the right time the leafs should have kept fuhr and probably would have had chance against powerhouse detroit but again where was andreychoke game applauded the sabres for making the deal get fuhr specifically because thought would help them win least one playoff series however don think the leafs can faulted either there nothing say that felix won winning playoff series himself years come anyway does anybody else find ironic that fuhr against moog least was until guy named alex showed
rec.sport.hockey	radio stations cleveland freenet edu theodore benjamin writes messge mon apr greanias texas mitre org steve greanias wrote not have cable and the nights the caps don play would like tune other games does anyone have list the radio stations which broadcast the games for the nhl teams here are the ones can remember offhand kdka pittsburgh penguins lori the regular penguins poster here rec sport hockey indicated via mail that the nights that pirates baseball and penguins playoff games coincide the pens will covered wdve wabc new jersey devils wbbm chicago blackhawks wjm detroit redwings this wjr detroit and however neglected mention earlier response this thread the nights when the tigers baseball games coincide with the wings playoff games the wings will carried wllz
rec.sport.hockey	espn thumbs your article apr wkuvx bitnet kozloce wkuvx bitnet writes aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaauuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugggggggggggggggg guess what the score now penguins switch games you and guess which game espn showing area thursday yep pens devils there are many other interesting series who cares about mario mike
rec.sport.hockey	you were pat burns borchevsky and gilmour think gilmour slightly outweighs borchevsky andreychuk also about think susan teeheehee oops
rec.sport.hockey	espn article wavefront wti com matthew wavefront wti com matt coohill writes espn through fortunate rainout baseball game showed the red wings toronto game cool but swear that the advertisements all week long had said that espn would show pitt tuesday and bos buff thursday raced home from work early pacific catch the game but alas was the boston buffalo game and then they promised that they would show the pitt game thursday overnight they changed their mind what the hell are talking about espn showed pens devils game advertised but the morons espn should know that pens will kick devils ass and the game will boring rather see boston buffalo game which seems exciting series since noone had expected buffalo get past the first round well let hope they change their mind thu game and show some other game the pens series really getting boring want see some exciting game matter who wins nhl wants major network contract then they better put some brains espn people experience what makes person make new mistakes instead old one mail cobra chopin udel edu
rec.sport.hockey	don cherry coach corner summary april here summary don cherry coach corner from april the game being broadcast region was and calgary although think was filmed during the toronto detroit game that night warning anti fighting people may want skip this post topics don tie grant fuhr penalties wings leafs fighting dale hunter episode summary this episode began with the camera zoomed don tie don was pointing out the characters the tie bugs bunny foghorn leghorn and yosemite sam who don called lanny macdonald ron maclean began mentioning that don was almost evicted from hotel where was watching the previous night games because all the yelling and cheering was doing over the play hunter and fuhr don began praise fuhr calling him the greatest goalie and said that winning the series against boston all himself then showed clips from earlier episodes nov jan when fuhr was still with the leafs and don advised don trade fuhr don went predict that buffalo gets boston would fuhr who wins the series muckler took lot heat for the trade but don feels muckler been vindicated the next topic involved how playoff games are being ruined too many penalty calls showed clip from winnipeg vancouver game where domi hit vancouver player and was given min penalty ron said that was called penalty because his stick was involved but don stuck with the opinion that was good hit with domi hitting the vancouver player with his shoulder don its sad what they doing for hockey minute penalty for nosebleed next they went the playoff series between detroit and toronto people detroit were calling wendel clarke wendy for not fighting however don pointed out that probert was not fighting either this lead don into tirad about fighting and stickwork and how banning fighting leads more high sticking like college hockey the little wee guy with the visor brave anybody that why you seeing much stickwork because they know you won drop your gloves and give them shot the rules are made people who don know what going hockey the final topic don discussed was dale hunter don pointed out that was leading the league goals and showed clip hunter from previous game when was younger hunter was taught play win which differs from today idea just letting kids have fun then end the episode they showed clip from coach corner with the tape fast forward that don sounded like one the chipmunks rating typical anti fighting posturing not too much humour but some good quotes give out allan sullivan allan ualberta department computing science university alberta edmonton alberta canada opinions are mine and mine alone amazing how much can accomplished one cares who gets the credit golden bears hockey motto drake
rec.sport.hockey	don cherry coach corner summary april here summary don cherry coach corner from april was taken from tape delay vancouver winnipeg game but was filmed during the toronto detroit game that night think was also shown during the calgary game warning anti fighting people may want skip this post topics don tie doug gilmour wings leafs quebec montreal boston buffalo wendel clark fighting and stickwork episode summary once again the episode started with shot don tie this was different tie than last time don pointed out some the characters the tie but gave them different names felix the cat sylverster maclean daffy duck etc ron maclean asked don what thought the current wings leafs game don thought was good burns told the leaf players they won their building going win ours don then began praise gilmour again don pointed out that gilmour has never got less than points goal any game since got points game against louis don also claims that gave lot encouragement gilmour which was partly responsible for his good play several clips were then shown gilmour from the series hit constantinov and pass andrewchuk resulting goal the game itself the wings were taking lot penalties the first period the wings have enough talent score short handed however and when the leafs get power play coach burns tells the leaf players don let them score you ron brought the previous quebec montreal game note montreal won that game overtime despite having possible game winner disqualified because was batted with high stick don thought the high stick was obvious even without the use instant replay the buffalo boston series note buffalo currently winning the series don gave full credit goaltender grant fuhr fuhr should getting the team playoff checks for his play wendel clarke has recently been criticized for his performance during the detroit toronto series don defended him saying that can play the way should because the league new rules this used rough and tough league now its all hack and slash don lays the blame gil stien for the problems don opinions fighting and stickwork are shared wings and coach bryan murray clip from news conference murray was shown which murray made statements claiming the elimination fighting increases stickwork don also read newspaper article which murray makes the following statements players don fight because they afraid getting thrown out the game instigator instead they settle grudges getting their sticks and slicing each other this what the fans want see guarantee there wouldn many slashes fighting were kept the game don warned league commisioner gary bettman smarten with fighting hockey went say that before there used one guy cut with high stick series now with fights someone gets cut every period rating typical anti fighting posturing but here don opinion supported murray give out
rec.sport.hockey	espn article randolin polisci umn edu randolin polisci umn edu robert andolina writes the thing that confuses most about espn that they decided show the penguins and devils again thursday night being that both the first two games were dominated pitt you would think that they would show different game this addition the fact that they should show other games just for the sake fair exposure also some you should know that far can tell espn not going show campbell conference games regularly the first two rounds believe that they are only going show campbell games the first two rounds those series wear games perhaps games also does anyone have info abc coverage for this sunday espn had advertise for pens devils game don know what the hell they are trying especially against nfl draft well guess there goes the nhl ratings for sundays game robert andolina randolin polisci umn edu
rec.sport.hockey	sharks kingston fired snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes article klh morrow stanford edu steve sep stanford edu steve cole writes think the three headed guiding principle was keep veterans favor youngsters only they offered significant advantage doesn sound like bad strategy and fact that was ferreira original strategy which the troika proceeded simply continue implement there wasn exactly radical shift policy when was ousted something people seem forget the only real question whether they did well ferreira could have stayed whether the basic strategy was flawed since ferreira has been quoated saying going something different anaheim with the ducks guess that wasn good practice was paper and tweaking bit second time around one also has wonder whether the strategy would have been lot better hadn had those injuries and whether complaining about the weather because earthquake collapsed the root cellar course ferreira had also traded number veterans with marginal contributions before was fired not clear that this would have been different besides they were marginal contributors let also not forget that ferreira came this close trading kelly kisio which the rumors heard are true was over the strong objections other aspects shark management and probably had lot with both his ouster and the three headed consensus oriented imagine for second where the sharks would today that fax machine hadn jammed with without mullen they weren going playoff team what good does them hang onto player who rather elsewhere especially unhappy player that isn playing well because not that accuse mullen tanking but his motivation simply wasn there and that kind thing can affect the team example from this season skriko was brought trial basis but not kept because his age thought was decent contributor worth keeping around the youth movement has its advantages look gaudreau who might still more veterans had been kept around but you have find the right balance right balance for what that the issue exactly the time they let skriko hadn yet had the major injury bugs that killed later much rather have skriko around than someone like dean kolstad but that point that wasn the choice and since the choice was more one skriko someone like john carter think the right choice was made for that time period chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd
rec.sport.hockey	nhl draft believe the nhl draft the june weekend
rec.sport.hockey	goalie stats article smf access usask coulman usask randy coulman writes path ctron news ctron com noc near net uunet utcsri newsflash concordia izar umanitoba access usask usask coulman from coulman usask randy coulman newsgroups rec sport hockey subject final regular season individual goalie stats date wed apr edt organization university saskatchewan lines distribution world message smf access usask reply coulman usask nntp posting host skorpio usask would appreciate someone could volunteer verify the shots goal and save percentage numbers for can put these stats the archive site contact mail you want volunteer here are the individual goalie stats wed apr cst these stats include games and including the sunday previous the date listed above they have been verified against what printed newspaper every tuesday they don print shots and save percentage numbers those are not verified these stats are available mail every weekday and sometimes weekends town and can get late game results just send note you would like receive these stats mail you have any questions comments suggestions let know randy minutes played goals against shutouts gaa goals against average wins losses ties sog shots goal save percentage gaa sog player was byron dafoe har corrie alessio mtl frederick chabot bos mike bales tor felix potvin chi belfour bos john blue chi jim waite pit tom barrasso stl curtis joseph van kay whitmore buf dominik hasek bos andy moog cal jeff reese mtl patrick roy har mike lenarduzzi det vincent riendeau tor daren puppa det tim cheveldae cal mike vernon nyi glenn healy buf grant fuhr nyr john vanbiesbrouck was don beaupre min jon casey van kirk mclean chris terreri mtl andre racicot que stephane fiset phi tommy soderstrom pit ken wregget bos reggie lemelin que ron hextall nyi mark fitzpatrick win bob essensa win jim hrivnak min darcy wakaluk wendell young bergeron craig billington stl guy hebert was rick tabaracci buf tom draper nyr corey hirsch phi dominic roussel nyr mike richter nyi danny lorenz edm bill ranford robb stauber kelly hrudey que jacques cloutier har mario gosselin rick knickle pat jablonski arturs irbe har sean burke edm ron tugnutt ott daniel berthiaume phi stephane beauregard ott peter sidorkiewicz cal andrei trefilov har frank pietrangelo win mike neill wade flaherty jeff hackett brian hayward tor rick wamsley was olaf kolzig ott darrin madeley ott steve weeks david goverde david littman randy coulman aries laboratory research assistant department computational science university saskatchewan coulman usask saskatoon mike machnik machnik blue ctron com nin merrimack edu cabletron systems inc hmn
rec.sport.hockey	espn bashing agree thouroughly screw the damn contractual agreements show the exciting hockey game they will lose fans espn which have been one for quite while quickly with decisions like this just chuck espn this time atwood atwoodc csugrad edu virginia tech computer science department
rec.sport.hockey	schedule article apr news columbia edu gld cunixb columbia edu gary dare writes mre teal eng sun com mike eisler writes gld cunixb columbia edu gary dare writes can believe that espn making sportschannel america look good but only philadelphia and chicago everywhere else the only reason sportschannel was available was for local baseball broadcasts yes point well taken however even areas that finally got some games there something nagging the back your skull when the network that has the national rights its pocket says its sports news there awesome overtime going quebec city and try get you update through the show when you know that satellite feedhorn somewhere there listen guys you can talk about this the whole playoffs here small town southern illinois school from canada and know that cbc and tsn have games every night all you have bar with satellite have watched both games between mon que and toronto and detroit not mention van winn and with cbc they show all goals from every game that evening haven missed goal all playoffs well have boy leafs are ciao roger guagliano eastern illinois university
rec.sport.hockey	ulf and all jpc philabs philips com john curcio writes article qmpfa qna alpha erau edu drozinst erau edu drozinski tim writes ulf and pgh fan and what pisses off about the whole adam graves ulf samuesson debate that ulf plays hard hitting hockey nothing wrong with that while graves does what does when the only way win game intentionally hurt someone which bites jeesus never thought see the day when defended ranger you obviously don watch much hockey you think that graves goon one the hardest working rangers check that the hardest working ranger had goals this year not bad for checking type player and showed for every single game this season unlike that stiff messier fearless and throws clean checks will also stand someone after hits them not like that pussy oaf exactly point you watch games more closely you see lot goons going after him ulf one the main reasons why less physical players for pgh are left alone ulf plays rough hockey but only when other players are putting the rush mario jagr you want say anyone the penguins cheap shot goon say jennings caufield don tslander good defenseman because your favorite players can beat the pens even when they take dives like gartner try for the cheap penalties for his slash lemieux fine was cheap shot the exception not the rule bet you think mike gartner goon because the time that slashed the hell out oaf arm last year right after all did get suspension for hey that fine player does something stupid should penalized including ulf mario you not likely see that happen anyone else for that matter pointless say any one person cheap shot goon because you see everyone take cheap shot now and then especially you resomeone who shadowed much ulf jpc john curcio bruins philips laboratories jpc philabs philips com scarborough road briarcliff manor tim drozinski drozinst erau edu chew electric death snarling cur spaceman spiff
rec.sport.hockey	ulf and all william willis andrew cmu edu writes richard wernick writes stuff deleted the bruins get meet pittsburgh the near future you can bet neely will have his day the sight watching ulf turtle like the coward worth almost much stanley cup stuff deleted how much you watch and follow hockey the pens and bruins will the same division next season which will give neeley plenty opportunity whine about ulf all can say glad that you are satisfied with seeing ulf turtle substitute for the stanley cup because that close the bruins are going come the stanley cup for while tim drozinski drozinst erau edu chew electric death snarling cur spaceman spiff
rec.sport.hockey	selfish hockey fans article apr staff dccs upenn edu filinuk staff dccs upenn edu geoff filinuk writes tuesday when was raining chicago espn provided bonus hockey coverage now seems though some fans are ticked off that the wash was replaced with the angels game people must realize that there are more baseball fans instead hockey fans the the baseball game was scheduled air and advertisers money was paid they can skip the baseball game why don you people chill out and enjoy whatever coverage you can get well partly because ardent fan both sports would rather see game the nhl playoffs than game the mlb season even the game involves the red sox espn may have had contractual obligations understand that part but bit inaccurate call selfish just because want watch the watch the game love baseball fan selfish when get pissed cbs for showing approximately one game per month don think while espn may have contractual obligations their consumers have right voice our displeasure with how they are serving there certainly nothing wrong with that bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac and boston bruins contact for rec sport hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey division state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	ulf and all joe pitt edu joseph stiehm writes the way does does not belong the nhl there have been cheap shot artists through the history the game but lot them have been talanted players bobby clarke kenny linsemen pie mckenzie chris chelios etc but nobody has been out right dirty cheapshot coward ulf violence hockey has got curbed and players like should have been women samuelson don belong when players like ulf who main purpose injure the better players the league allowed continue and the league won stop the players should christian pro aluminum stick directed his ugly head should the trick nicely the bruins get chance meet pittsburgh the near future you can bet neely will have his day the sight watching ulf turtle like the coward worth almost much stanely cup this wimp player almost ruined the career one the best right wingers the game you are remove ulf samuelson from the lineup the penguins would not even notice gone eyesore the game hockey rich rich pull your head out your ass joseph stiehm aluminum stick being taken ulf head gonna solve the problem with violence the sport hockey how the hell can you say the guy goon and justify with your back assward mentality saying that hurting player will solve anyone problems asinine new rules and new referee system need instituted right now too many the real goons get away with too much because the ref watching the play supposed seen koharski and van hellemond name few with their heads their asses few calls rather than keeping eye the goofballs behind the play even the linesmen were able call all penalties would improvement tim drozinski drozinst erau edu chew electric death snarling cur spaceman spiff
rec.sport.hockey	espn thumbs your article apr wkuvx bitnet kozloce wkuvx bitnet wrote think this proves point the caps game goes into overtime but due contractual obligations they have switch the fucking baseball sorry for language but pissed what the hell were they going their scheduled game went into overtime espn get your head out your ass now know there are lot hey american hockey fans hockey fan can sympathize with thefrustration that you feel the problem that other americans don give shit about hockey they view bunch canadians with bad accents and missing teeth beating the shit out each other patch ice when too warm now two thirds the see the stuff naturally the other hand baseball the gasp swoon sigh national pasttime baseball romanticized the that you are supposed forget that other sport exist after april and before november feel that since espn shows baseball games week they should able show hockey game instead the opening innings baseball game hell the game going last hrs mins what you miss the first hrs and indians fan show the end what you started then switch but then hockey fan what know baseball the all mighty sport jason jae andy bgsu edu whalers pick well
rec.sport.hockey	usenet hockey draft final standings article idacom com andrew idacom com andrew scott writes here are the final stadings for the usenet hockey draft congratulations this year winner dave wessels victoria who parlayed his initial points into points thanks all teams for entering the biggest usenet hockey draft ever hope hear from you all again this september for the annual draft usenet hockey draft standings week posn team total pts cash last posn dave wessels brad gibson dinamo riga interesting note have absolutely recollection who was team picked all players about weeks before the start the season and then never touched the roster again got wrapped own money pool and decided not get involved all with the usenet pool sorry andrew btw the only thing remember about team that had joe sacco and maybe john maclean maybe francis and kevin stevens well out curiousity checked the final standings today only find amazement that with absolutely input the initial team still managed finsh not sure what that implies for those who finished below ciao brad gibson brad gibson internet gibson geop ubc dept geophysics astronomy main mall phone university british columbia fax vancouver british columbia canada
rec.sport.hockey	octopus article lmarsha cms wayne edu lmarsha cms wayne edu laurie marshall says article ssl ebs spk com filipows spk com dennis filipowski writes door attendants the joe louis arena have been checking fans for octopuses they are not allow the arena want know where these people are hiding these octopuses everytime been the joe they checked purse and that the only place can think putting one any other wings fans out there know ways sneak these octopuses into the joe you mean they don strip search you and cavity checks the fools
rec.sport.hockey	pilon bites the isles have another defenseman insert into the line besides pilon once again last night stupid penalty put the isles hole for the remainder regulation and minutes into overtime even though the isles nearly survived pilon blunder regulation was the most inopportune time for minute major penalty instead confronting cote came across the blueline pilon backed and swiped cote nose with his stick arbour can serious think pilon the guy have out there with the game the line heard scott lachance out till later the series but there must someone else bring back the bammer dave langevin lets islanders john scialdone scialdone nssdca gsfc nasa gov been gambling hereabouts for good solid years
rec.sport.hockey	team pool standings only one series done but need post something the way the islanders just scored rank team name points final roland behunin cal que que milton keynes kings det pit pit barfly tor bos tor dean det pit pit lak bos lak garry tor bos bos brian bergman det pit det mopar muscle men chi pit pit last place picks chi pit pit dave wessels van pit pit sam his dogs det pit pit ding det pit pit tampere stars chi pit pit the mighty hedgehogs myllyp chi bos bos homesick hawaiian van pit pit killer kings chi was chi puggy greybeards det pit pit ottawa bearcats tor pit tor andrew kirk tor pit pit muller walker det pit pit excalibur det pit pit rednecks from hockey hell det bos bos the rangers chi pit pit jeff phelps det pit pit arctic circles det pit pit sludge det pit det the logistician det pit det hillside raiders chi bos bos danielle chi que que stanias stars chi bos bos bloodhook det pit pit gilles carmel chi pit pit pasi nti lak pit pit evan pritchard van pit pit skriko wolves det pit pit rangers blow cal pit pit sean det pit pit schott shooters chi pit pit gary shiff tor pit pit mike burger det pit det darse det pit pit mike burger canada includes quebec ontario mmb lamar colostate edu the maritimes the prairies and florida beginning computing stud four months year over students served royal canadian air farce university michigan colorado state university
rec.sport.hockey	habs tie series yahooooooooo the habs tied this sucker and the teams now head for quebec city play game btw final score was habs nords the score might bit misleading the habs dominated the game from the mark the first and then the score should have been weren for some miraculous save from ron hextall bastard the reason the score was close habs winning goal was scored benoit brunet the roy had game made the first save one way another and the defense was there clear any rebounds this just espn radio reports that the bruins lost yahooooooooooo those suckers got what they deserved life just great now finals would just well nick take off town crier hat now the czar mainframe computing bgk musicb mcgill mcgill university
rec.sport.hockey	jets canucks jets hold win article lsp news cso uiuc edu epritcha psych uiuc edu evan pritchard writes will also happy will good performance played vancouver but much better last night the big guys were going for the jets yep though reasons for being relatively quiet are simple last year woofed when went the canucks and look where got the way did domi play last night didn notice him the ice domi got tossed the with high sticking major had been playing with kris king and stu barnes and was this line that was arguably the best the first two games very glad have found some places champaign illinois that have satillite dishes pick the cbc vancouver feed and also glad have found some other hockey fans some jets and some canucks fans watch the game with definitely good thing every little cheer helps evan good thing the net doesn need voice operate won have one sunday night when get home hope white noise here come one thing will say though vancouver can keep steve armitage and john garrett broadcast team those two are bad especially when you are spoiled don wittman least four five times steve called barnes selanne whoops daryl turner contact for the winnipeg jets internet umturne ccu umanitoba fidonet please route through tkachuk over zhamnov sel nne shoots scores the jets win the cup the jets win the cup essensa for vezina housley for norris sel nne for calder
rec.sport.hockey	sabres sweep over the sabres came back beat the bruins tonight sweep the series beautiful goal brad may lafontaine set him while lying down the ice ended fuhr left the game game with injured shoulder and lafontaine was banged well however the sabres will get week rest injuries should not problem montreal edged quebec square their series which seems headed for game the habs dominated the first two periods and were unlucky only have tie after minutes however early goal brunet the won the islanders won their game the series goal ray ferraro the caps simply collapsed after taking lead the the isles all time playoff record now vlad the impaler
rec.sport.hockey	and you think espn shafted you like many others too was watching the caps isles game when the went the baseball game too was pissed how could they interupt such important game understand about contracts but you would think they would have clause the contract concerning important games anyway blues and hawks fans got shafted worse while everyone the and watched the game abc however those who live the central illinois area were subjected watching the arthritus telethon the area that was most affected the telecast did not get see the game except through hawk vision this game had been televised would have been the first home hawks game shown the area since this television bull has got stop are not only being deprived seeing games due skyrocketing ticket prices but are also being deprived watching them peace hammer
rec.sport.hockey	pierre turgeon stud being blues fan don get see much else from around the league with the exception hockey night espn can get the blues games where school thus don get see whole lot other teams play except for the hawks but last night got catch glimpse the caps isles game occurred that turgeon stud skates his moves are quick and brilliant you fans should proud who won the game caps isles peace hammer
rec.sport.hockey	great comeback for sabres despit changing goalie bufflo sabres has just finished their great four wins over boston all sabres players contribute those great wins but those talent players including mogily fuhr kemhlev and lafontin impressed most their skills showed the art sport not like the garbage speech from the coach corner make hocky popular make hocky more exciting but less violent
rec.sport.hockey	ranger fans kkeller mail sas upenn edu keith keller writes kwolfer eagle wesleyan edu writes reading through most these hockey news don see many ranger fans writing here talking about hockey don away like some team fans when the rangers bite the big one yeah think used now even some change our sigs root for our second favorite teams new this system and big hockey fan and long suffering ranger fan but remember suffering builds character don care want cking stanley cup before die aargh happy they win before get out school the way going may here saying piled higher and deeper before long ranger fans may suffering but some the most loyal unlike islander fans who only show when the team wins this has been observed many times true definitely have feeling that alot people out there may not like this statement but far the worst band wagon fans are the pit fans least the present case point know guy who just came hockey hell from pitt him how bout the pens the ing awesome yeah but beating the devils doesn mean alot wait until they meet boston and detroit the playoffs start him when the playoffs start uhhhh they started week ago not saying that this true all the waddlers fans but there seems alot them floating around who really know nothing about hockey except that they newly beloved waddlers are the best team the game right now and when they not the best team those fans will disappear into the woodwork john flames dev null serious comments welcomed eat the rich far the stanley cup goes think there only one team that can test pittsburgh and that detroit this would the most entertaining and hard fought series mario amazing keith keller let rangers let quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs cow not vegetarian dish keith keller hockey hell jwodzia eng clemson edu john wodziak the real black and gold memorium alan kulwicki space will triumph over those who polish yankee mechanical engineer for are pretenders the crown winston cup champion great person rent
rec.sport.hockey	where are all the bruins fans robbie rap psuvm psu edu writes just wondering where all the bruins fans are mean they woofed with about posts during the regular season saying that their fave team was going kick everyone the playoffs and win the stanley cup while see nothing wrong with little ranting and raving just curious why all the boston faithful have stopped posting mean haven even see just one little boston fan post cept for the bruins fans that aren cocky well maybe they all out the golf course something but don know sure like see where all those bruins fans are still here just doing little sobbing our beer busy post seriously think caught sig curse from nelson first the rangers and now the hmmm how bout dem whalers offense steveg others hockey hell jwodzia eng clemson edu john wodziak the real black and gold memorium alan kulwicki space will triumph over those who polish yankee mechanical engineer for are pretenders the crown winston cup champion great person rent
rec.sport.hockey	espn yours article apr virginia edu mjr virginia edu matthew rush writes actually was angry when they went away from the pens game being pens fan central virginia kinda tough only get see them espn and when they play the caps cause close enough get all the caps games when espn switched the caps aaaggghhh matt not nearly angry was have set the vcr yesterday only get home find the bruins buffalo that what get for reading the section and not the sports section for what game will aired nancy spera imt division didn know for fact that chevron petroleum technology elvis was working donut shop box habra beaver falls swear was tel njs chevron com driving this truck scotty baldwin
rec.sport.hockey	radio stations add boston weei the bruins flagship station you probably won pick anywhere outside boston since only watt station the bruins also have network stations all new england states this could the bruins last year eei which also happens all sports radio station the problem that the bruins are not too happy being moved over different station wmex whenever there the same night conflict with the nba boston celtics this happened times during the course the regular season the celtics own financially troubled weei the bruins might resurface whdh next year stay tuned ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	 quoting the logistician all need all the players wearing the nhl know now only one ray borque for the bruins any help would greatly appreciated thanx there logistician not paul coffey wearing for the detroit red wings that the only other one besides borque that can think hope helps steve warning removal this tagline prohibited law blue wave qwk
rec.sport.hockey	espn broadcastsssss quoting cire trehguad all cyt hey iowa and not mind espn showing the pitt njd games cyt least get see the devils even they are gettin there ass cyt kicked perhaps they will score and even win game two cyt devils sorry tell you this but don think the devils will win game against pittsburg the penguins have many scoring threats that you shut down one and another will kill you too bad but must conclude that the penguins will win their third stanley cup row hope someone will beat them but just cannot see happening backup not found bort etry anic blue wave qwk
rec.sport.hockey	hey what about teh quoting greg rogers all all due living the bay area unable see vancouver victory over the jets last night know the score but that rarely describes the game could someone please post brief sonapsis waht happened how well did each team play were the cannucks deserving the victory also could some kind soul please email the end season individual player stats greg vancouver for the cup virtual reality sorry tell you this greg but all reality cannot see vancouver winning the cup they have rrally good chance come out the smythe division and chance make the finals but one capable this year beating the penguins they have too many scoring threats would love proven wrong but must conclude that the pens will win cup this year steve mondays are rotten way spend your life blue wave qwk
rec.sport.hockey	test please ignore quoting ohandley betsy gsfc nasa all from ohandley betsy gsfc nasa gov newsgroups rec sport hockey subject test please ignore message apr betsy gsfc nasa gov date wed apr gmt reply ohandley betsy gsfc nasa gov this test please ignore will ignore this message since only test wow montreal just scored game their series sorry was supposed ignore this message wasn bye for now steve dont you dare read this tagline blue wave qwk
rec.sport.hockey	espn really sucks big time cdash moet colorado edu charles shub writes all hockey automobile racing fans all know exactly where stand espn delays the martinsville race day for the nfl draft espn shows baseball instead the overtime nhl playoff game gimme break guys what really irritated was that they kept switching back and forth between baseball and hockey after they stated that they couldn show the overtime period turned back espn around and was hockey great pulled chair and watched then the first overtime period ended and they went back baseball before coming back hockey something like minutes later are they trying alienate both hockey and baseball viewers the same time for martinsville wonder why they even bothered sign for when they was secret that coincided with the draft why not let tnn broadcast george charlie shub cdash colorado edu
rec.sport.hockey	sharks review part left wings paul fugu data com paul brownlow writes wood played most his junior career seattle was one the leading scorers mediocre team when was traded away rarely lost fight and was one the toughest players the whl wood fairly small for enforcer type mean fleury does pretty good job and isn that large but dody fleury having been witness three four his fights closeup simply isn ready fight nhl level assuming that his role which all really showed his few games from can pass shoot skate never saw much all has right fist which isn bad but the nhl level the other players are smart enough grab the thing before can land anything significant once you control that hand fish flopping the beach and the other player can just about anything wants him his entire strategy seemed keep the hand out reach until found opening and never once saw him find opening worth talking about got neutralized quickly and stomped couple times unless shows some new tricks camp career minor leaguer list since this was his first taste the nhl expect the sharks gave him know what have work off season needs get stronger needs get more speed and needs show some versatility something else than simply goond because wasn particularly good goon chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd
rec.sport.hockey	islanders win third don know who scored but the isles franchise record playoff games took game four score for their third consecutive win over the capitals tonight uniondale you know please post who scored for isles fan living atlanta hockey hell lord stan uniondale man isles jsm
rec.sport.hockey	finland disaster finland was beaten czech finland will pool and will most certainly meet canada the quarter final wednesday lack scoring skills has been the major problem team finland throughout the tournament briza goalie was the mvp the czech team and tikkanen was the mvp the finnish team jarkko
rec.sport.hockey	finland ketolain messi uku jarkko ketolainen writes disaster finland was beaten czech finland will pool and will most certainly meet canada the quarter final wednesday lack scoring skills has been the major problem team finland throughout the tournament briza goalie was the mvp the czech team and tikkanen was the mvp the finnish team four the five games finns have played the goalie has been chosen the best player the opposing team the fifth the finnish goalie ketterer was elected the best finn has this with the goalies having good days these games are the finnish players just lousy scorers anyway quite few goals have been scored these games generally the exception course being canada italy looks like the goalies are getting too good this due their equipment getting bigger they cover more their gloves seem much bigger now than they were some years ago anybody know the rules goalie equipment has changed this way mikko wihervaara jarkko nyt nen testi sigun kai piti olla muutamarivinen nyt viel pari
rec.sport.hockey	stan fischler apr alchemy chem utoronto golchowy alchemy chem utoronto gerald olchowy writes wayne made his own bed choosing mcnall over sather and hockey destiny should sleep instead whining ego got absolute nonsense the decision that was made was pocklington chose mill over gretzky gretzky wasn upset about not being able win cup then submit that wasn worth the mill the best him thought the supporting cast edmonton didn matter that was the show himself how you know what thinks thought the only thought that can see that you have revealed your own you don like gretzky big deal now only complaint about lemieux that dives too much but last year patrick convinced him twice accept bowman and hockey destiny rather than his ego the real purpose diving not merely attempt draw penalty what the player trying make the checkers keep their distance the ref won fooled can imagine why anyone would expect someone like lemieux change his game why don you pick dimensional over rated type like hull and salami cordially always maynard ramsey laurentian many morons and little time
rec.sport.hockey	ahl playoff results ahl playoff scores first round home team caps games played tues rochester utica fredericton cape breton series stati plural status adirondack leads cdi providence tied springfield binghamton tied baltimore rochester leads utica john leads moncton cape breton tied fredericton bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac and boston bruins contact for rec sport hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey division state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	caps isles fans caps isles fans anyone interested catching the games from nassau coliseum hopefully there will another can catch the game north carolina original sports bar chapel hill pretty sure they carry hts well they had all three games the same time last night this the only place know catch all the stanley cup action frank salvatore fmsalvat eos ncsu edu
rec.sport.hockey	pens fans reactions sure some bashers pens fans are pretty confused about the lack any kind posts about the recent pens massacre the devils actually bit puzzled too and bit relieved however going put end non pittsburghers relief with bit praise for the pens man they are killing those devils worse than thought jagr just showed you why much better than his regular season stats also lot fun watch the playoffs bowman should let jagr have lot fun the next couple games since the pens are going beat the pulp out jersey anyway was very disappointed not see the islanders lose the final regular season game pens rule
rec.sport.hockey	usenet playoff pool game standings here are the standings after game each the divisional semi final series andrew usenet hockey playoff draft standings posn team pts rem last posn sneddon scorers arctic circles northern lights threepeat fighting amish team elvis chris roney myers marauders the dead ducks les poteux sludge paige faults sam his dogs the borg hurricane andrew lewey lakers einstien punk band homesick hawaiian test department samuel lau calgary alberta mopar muscle men jerky boys flyers neural netters give you money monday bill mcgreer fugazi detroit homeboy bloom county all stars dehradun maawalis great expectations purdue ricks pens frank little wankers jan stein allez les blues goaldingers suds weenies bury bruce rented mules mind sweepers mike burger flames garryola the mulberry maulers lippe flamming senators big bay bombers milton keynes kings seppo kemppainen freddy beach rockets the campi machine rock sock ems sean forbes tapio repo zachmans wingers zipper heads canadian gladiators teem kanada new zealand leafs tiger chung lees rangers destiny make beliefs dave wessels norway killerwhales force trevor triumph commitments skate die dog hog delaware destroyers craig team rangers blow debbie bowles mak paranjape comfortably numb loaded weapons rob del mundo robarts research rebels fuzzfaces galore houdini magicians coupe stainless cluster buster lets pandas tequila shooters steves superstars reksa fans oulu habs playing golf chris stevens thin ice oakville brothers jason team smithw anson mak skriko wolves all the kane men danielle leblanc team awesome weasels alf all stars zippety doodah kramer george and jerry rev rebels yan loke lamp lighters littlest giants creosote oceanweavers great scott bobby schmautz fan club icemachine hat trick mike the promise land daves knee jerk picks doug bowles holsteins sfb lemon pepper grizzly bears flying pigs les raisins reneb gilles carmel boops bets timo ojala rednecks from hockey hell gee man frack attack triple ulfie brothers buffalo soldiers shigella ottawa bearcats whiters monica loke lance hill the boston bruins mann mariners new jersey rob frasses faceplants doug mraz muller walker high stickers legzryx beer makes expert gail hiebert dean martin marcs maulers brians bloodletters van isle colonists charlie cook bjorkloven schott shooters bjoern leaguen the eradicators lord stanley favourites but wait theres more stacey ross heikki salmi the ice kickers chapman chaps the rangers the underwriters beam team dave hiebert canuck force evan pritchard controversy warriors jfz dream team san jose mahi mahi gagit goddess fermentation bure blur louisiana psycho killers east city jokers tampere salami joe crak head grant marven mark and steve dreaming again pens dynasty chip dale cherry bombers brian bergman the goobmeister arm hammer gax goons daryl turner bosse myllypuro hedgehogs chapman sticks hillside raiders knights power play eldoret elephants sparky select sluggo hosers butt ends lisa luggers stanias stars ken cruyenaere gary shiff jukurit montys nords jane world rolaids required martin gag equipe jour arsenal maple leafs the alarmers killer kings andrew scott andrew idacom com idacom telecom operation ext during the roman era was considered old
rec.sport.hockey	goalie mask poll update curtis joseph and ray leblanc have made some big moves the poll recently hextall has shown some strong movement well kirk mclean and tom barrasso can see why have been added the list recently keep sending those votes current votes for favorite goalie masks pts pts player team pts votes belfour chicago curtis joseph louis andy moog boston brian hayward san jose ron hextall quebec grant fuhr buffalo gerry cheevers boston retired john vanbeisbrouck rangers ray leblanc usa olympic mike richter rangers manon rheaume atlanta ihl don beaupre washington ken dryden montreal retired others receiving less than pts mike vernon cal clint malarchuk buf ihl tommy soderstrom phil tom barrasso pit artus irbe tim cheveldae det sean burke rick wamsley tor ret jon casey minn bob essensa win glenn healy nyi tony espo chi gilles gratton bos rod stauber gump worsley mtl nyr pat jablonski grant fuhr tor felix potvin tor stephane beauregard win mark fitzpatrick nyi chico resch nyi kirk mclean van skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite braves effect you mike patton faith more hornets capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	scores and standings april world championships germany group standings munich group standings dortmund canada czech republic sweden germany russia usa switzerland finland italy norway austria france april italy russia norway germany sweden austria usa czech republic april canada switzerland russia austria finland france april sweden canada czech republic germany switzerland italy finland usa april germany france italy sweden czech republic norway april switzerland russia usa france austria canada norway finland april switzerland austria germany finland april russia sweden czech republic france canada italy usa norway april sweden switzerland finland czech republic russia canada germany usa april austria italy france norway playoffs april quarterfinals sweden usa russia germany april quarterfinals canada finland italy switzerland czech republic april relegation april semifinals may relegation bronze medal game may final staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson contact for swedish hockey
rec.sport.hockey	lemieux getting the hart jeez hope not article apr unbvm csd unb patrick walker unb writes the way canadian play little and watched hockey night canada never missed show well that really great pat guess since you played little you thereby qualify expert especially since you watch all the games all that qualifies you armchair quarterback coach potato not that condone violence but make exception for mario pat walker again just further evidence what kind expert you are truly stupid statement mario definately one the best players play the game not saying the best ever play the game but should come mind when that question asked let face just returns from radiation therapy with around dozen games left overtakes lafontaine for the scoring lead and then buries him guess just got lucky speaking lafontaine now there guy who should considered for the hart trophy well certainly one the better players the league this year
rec.sport.hockey	playoffs stats through sunday stanley cup playoff stats through games played sunday april top point scorers rnk pts pim cty player can bos adam oates usa stl brett hull rus buf alexander mogilny can pit mario lemieux can cal theoren fleury can tor doug gilmour can det paul coffey usa buf pat lafontaine can nyi ray ferraro rus van pavel bure rus buf yuri khmylev can van trevor linden can buf dale hawerchuk usa stl craig janney can bos joe juneau can cal joe nieuwendyk can stl jeff brown can pit ron francis top goal scorers rnk pts pim cty player rus buf alexander mogilny usa stl brett hull can was dale hunter can pit mario lemieux can nyi ray ferraro can tor dave andreychuk can bos cam neely usa jimmy carson usa que scott young top assist scorers rnk pts pim cty player can bos adam oates can det paul coffey usa buf pat lafontaine can tor doug gilmour can stl jeff brown can pit ron francis usa win phil housley swe was calle johansson can cal macinnis top power play goal scorers rnk pts pim cty player usa stl brett hull can was dale hunter can cal theoren fleury rus buf alexander mogilny can bos joe juneau can stl brendan shanahan usa jimmy carson tch cal robert reichel fin win teemu selanne can mon vincent damphousse all the short handed goal scorers rnk pts pim cty player can cal theoren fleury can pit mario lemieux usa cal joel otto usa cal gary suter rus det sergei fedorov can bos dave poulin can win luciano borsato can det shawn burr can stl dave lowry usa buf wayne presley top game winning goal scorers rnk pts pim cty player usa stl brett hull can nyi ray ferraro usa stl craig janney usa que scott young rus van pavel bure can pit ron francis rus buf yuri khmylev can van trevor linden can tor dave andreychuk can was dale hunter top point scoring defensemen rnk pts pim cty player can det paul coffey can stl jeff brown usa win phil housley swe was calle johansson can cal macinnis top rookie point scorers rnk pts pim cty player can bos joe juneau usa pit shawn mceachern fin win teemu selanne tch buf richard smehlik top penalty minute leaders rnk pts pim cty player can det keith primeau rus det sergei fedorov can nyi richard pilon can tor rob pearson can win tie domi joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	minnesota shame hockey fan from way back and maintain interest best can here the hockey hinterlands oklahoma hoping can get reading from some you about the move the north stars dallas been under the impression that minnesota was one possibly the hockey state the why the team moving city texas that the owner greedy self serving profiteer were the stars really not making profit was the city whoever owned the arena doing some price gouging much like see the nhl only hour drive from can help but feel for the people minnesota unless they truly didn support the team opinions please steve hunter national weather service nexrad radar group norman
rec.sport.hockey	blues playoff stats through first round blues playoff scoring through end norris semifinals name pts pim brett hull craig janney jeff brown brendan shanahan nelson emerson denny felsner dave lowry basil mcrae kevin miller rich sutter bob bassen philippe bozon ron wilson garth butcher stephane quintal bret hedican murray baron rick zombo curtis joseph doug crossman ron sutter igor korolev kelly chase curt giles guy hebert rookie goaltending min avg save curtis joseph guy hebert team totals shutouts shots against goals period period period overtime power play goals short handed goals empty net goals shots joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	results april world championships germany group results sweden switzerland swi manuele celio swi patrick howald swi patrick howald sven leuenberger swe peter andersson michael nylander swi roman waeger martin rauch sven leuenberger swe jonas bergqvist markus naslund swe jan larsson patrik juhlin swe mikael renberg thomas rundqvist peter andersson swi roman waeger swi felix hollenstein sven leuenberger thomas vrabec shots goal penalties attendance referee sweden min rob hearn usa switzerland min switzerland beat sweden for the first time since and the swiss now have small chance reaching the quarterfinals austria beats italy tonight the swiss took the lead after hakan ahlund made incredibly stupid drop pass his own blue line and celio came alone with soderstrom and beat tommy the stick side the swedes continued make mistakes howald was allowed skate between the swedish and put the puck past tommy make was nice one howald entered the swedish zone slammed the breaks and his shot went tommy far post one the lousiest periods seen sweden play this year second period saw new swedish team and the swiss had ice the puck many times nylander skated from the boards pavoni made the initial save but peter andersson scored the rebound then power play goal from the swiss slap shot from the blue line hit two players the way the goal and past soderstrom also jonas bergqvist made after nice pass from naslund behind the goal jan larsson reduced the lead just before the end period skated unattacked front the goal and put the puck through pavoni hole third period sweden equalized slap shot from renberg that trickled through pavoni hole then another defensive mistake the swedes waeger was allowed skate around the swedish goal unattacked and from close range could make hollenstein then scored break away and put top shelf with chance for soderstrom switzerland goaltender reto pavoni renatio tosio defense rick tschumi martin steinegger sven leuenberger martin rauch sandro bertaggia patrick sutter samuel balmer forwards alfred luthi felix hollenstein roman waeger gil montandon roberto triulzi patrick howald christian weber andreas ton joerg eberle bruno erni thomas vrabec manuele celio russia canada can kevin dineen garry galley can paul kariya eric lindros can eric lindros paul kariya shayne corson rus valeri karpov penalties rus min min can min referee anton danko czech republic attendance russia probably made their best game the tourney but yet there wasn enough win against the effective canadians galley took slap shot that found dineen the far post and dineen just deflected the puck past trefilov the russian goal then power play goal after couple deflections eric lindros found kariya alone the far post and kariya put the puck high over sliding trefilov russia won the shots the first period and they had the most the scoring opportunities but they just couldn score second period saw lindros scoring his goal the kariya entered the russian zone slammed the break get past his defenseman then made nice pass corson who just got the stick the puck deflect lindros who one timed the puck the russians then finally got their goal karpov broke from the side and made slap shot tugnutt top right hand corner player the game canada was voted paul kariya and for russia valeri karpov agree the difference this game was lindros and kariya and part also tugnutt kariya had far better game now than the swedes and was very impressive kariya got the place the line with lindros after mike gartner went out with rib injury early the first period lindros btw lead the point scoring with pts before this game pts ahead the next player double much the next player among those kariya with amazing group results finland czech republic cze petr hrbek fin mika alatalo cze jiri dolezal cze martin hostak penalties fin min cze min referee vincent moreno switzerland attendance germany usa ger raimond hilger ger gerd truntschka ger ernst kopf ger michael rumrich ger benoit doucet usa derek plante ger dieter hegen usa craig johnson usa rob gaudreau penalties ger min usa min referee valeri bokarev russia attendance staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson contact for swedish hockey
rec.sport.hockey	nhl playoff results for games played nhl playoff results for conference semi finals best seven patrick adams norris smythe buf leads stl leads win pit leads bos chi van leads nyi tied mon tor tied was que leads det leads cal toronto maple leafs detroit red wings leads series period det lidstrom yzerman coffey period det fedorov det yzerman coffey chiasson det yzerman coffey sheppard tor mironov gill gilmour period tor gilmour anderson det ysebaert kozlov det drake kozlov kennedy powerplay opportunities maple leafs red wings shots goal maple leafs red wings toronto maple leafs potvin shots saves detroit red wings cheveldae shots saves att louis blues leads series chicago blackhawks period stl hull brown janney stl lowry period none period none powerplay opportunities blues blackhawks shots goal blues blackhawks louis blues joseph shots saves chicago blackhawks belfour shots saves att los angeles kings series tied calgary flames period lak carson period cal otto roberts macinnis cal yawney dahlquist ranheim cal reichel fleury cal nieuwendyk roberts musil cal otto dahl period lak carson granato shuchuk cal reichel fleury macinnis cal paslawski roberts nieuwendyk cal fleury macinnis nieuwendyk lak rychel blake lak kurri gretzky zhitnik cal suter skrudland berube powerplay opportunities kings flames shots goal kings flames los angeles kings hrudey shots saves calgary flames vernon shots saves att winnipeg jets vancouver canucks leads series period van ronning courtnall linden period van courtnall win domi king barnes period win numminen housley selanne van bure adams craven powerplay opportunities jets canucks shots goal jets canucks winnipeg jets essensa shots saves vancouver canucks mclean shots saves att spike
rec.sport.hockey	question goalie equipment have the rules for goalies equipment changed seems that glove has become bigger and bigger all the time and pads too and the goalies are wearing over size jerseys dreaming you watch old photos films let say about ten years back think the difference quite obvious who expert this please let know have the goalies become bigger jarkko trouble scoring
rec.sport.hockey	kings even series stauer shines article rfbldinn abyss west sun com dvb ick david van beveren writes vzhivov superior carleton vladimir zhivov writes game report deleted bad ref ing won affect this series which should only two more games all things being equal wrong the kings just put exibition hustle team play and consistent pounding and took back calgary with the series tied games each the final score was with the third goal empty netter the third conacher this not official game report just observations from the stands melrose made wise decision and put stauber back goal robb had something prove and did stopping while facing fierce calgary attack there were numerous highlight film saves kings third and fourth lines rose the occasion playing rough while avoiding bad penalties warren rychel scored the game winner early the second period rookie defenseman alexi zhitnik scored the first from the blue line late the first dave taylor awesome suffered broken nose partway through the second pariod checked from behind into the boards roberts who got and game came back late the third and was the ice when conacher scored the empty netter actually was the third period his return did bring spark the crowd and the players who played awesome defense the third the kings guys still are not producing goals from kurri granato sandstrom robitaille who have total points between them you forgot about gretzky any these guys start scoring the kings will unstoppable they continue the great defensive work well mccreary sucks called mcsorely for high sticking someone who was already the ice and sandstrom for high sticking when himself was already the ice missed many flagrant stick penalties including one from flame goalie jeff reese who followed granato out almost the blue line where cross checked him called the game very inconsistently with series ticky tack penalties the first and almost none the third can the nhl supply decent officiating was sitting directly across the ice from ron and nancy reagan when the empty netter was scored nancy leapt out her seat with both fists high the air way nancy this series still too close call tuesday game may the deciding one expect king might put vernon back even though reese had two good games reese has historically been good this was only the second time lost there this move would good for the kings since vernon such sieve sure that stauber will get the call for the kings stauber will net tuesday hopefully will provide another stellar performance and earn the name robb stopper stauber the firswt two lines the kings have wake while great see you cannot depend pat conacher and warren rychel for all your offense expect sandstrom granato and gretzky might put back together line like they were early the season this would leave kurri carson and luc the second paper these two lines look powerful let see they can make real believe this how they are know gretzky and sandstrom but has been putting number people left also the carson robataille kurri line once ignited will light the fire the other lines hopefully kings dvb evident that the scoring drought getting luc after his slight breakaway the third think was steamed the bench this emotion might help him break his streak also have noticed blake has had few really good chances score but has fanned shot wide the injury still affecting him the stompkin tuba calpoly edu
rec.sport.hockey	ettans nya indelning article apr eua ericsson euaaen eua ericsson anders engwall writes jag rst saken norra kiruna boden pite skellefte crif husum stersund antj sundsvall timr stra mora vle avesta uppsala ping arvika grums rebro lag stra kvalserien vilka stra arlanda sby vallentuna ster ker danderyd aik hammarby dert lje lje huddinge nyk ping roma dra vita sten lndal bor stervik hanhals troja ljungby rrum pantern lag dra kvalserien det rsta det principiellt fel att man har ndrat premisserna uppflyttning efterhand det andra kan man undra varf just stersund och stervik skall fri fallet stersund det solklart fix ovan mnda problem med norrgruppen men stervik det nne att nyk ping skall slippa spela der vilket klagat ver vad tror man ger exempelvis tierp som kom stra kvalet kommentarer att man skulle bli tvyngen att ndra premisserna kunde man inte lista rhand huvudsak att man inte flyttar ner fel lag stersund var solklar fix som sagt men stervik att det beror nyk ping tror jag inte man kunde lika rna flytta ner roma till dra iaf man efter bredgraderna mest ttvist vore att tierp och stervik upp men skulle roma nyk pinks vara eller inte vara stra ocks avg ras vad skulle det det rsta felet med rets indelning exakt samma som rra ret fast rre det inte tvist indelat sportligt sett vallentuna var match att upp till allsvenskan rra ret ist llet gick vle upp tror dem lyckas lika bra aik hif ssk och hik ska platser man hadde placerat dessa var sin division skulle vara lvklara favoriter till plats allsvenskan men ste vika var finns ttvisan det jag har att hik har mnat protest till rbundet ang ende indelningen stra mitt rslag vore att orna varje division kvalspela platser allsvenskan och efter jul skulle man kunna ihop fyra divisionerna till der och norr bestraffas inte ett lag som kommer trakt det finns nga bra lag kul grej som jag nskar att man inf rde att vinnaren allsvenskan spela slutspelet det skulle bli extra krydda till division ett ishockeyn lagen nde att var inom ckh till bucklan det skulle kanske sikt ocks kunna minska skillnaderna mellan lag elitserien och division ett vad anders engwall email anders engwall eua ericsson ellemtel utvecklings voice lvsj sweden fax dom som brygger puns ock ger pyanlektionor toll marek marek repinski eos ericsson man skall inte anv nda mmande ericsson telecom ord man har adekvat inhemsk system design division vokabul disponibel sweden gunnar emanuel str gur pbbxvr jnf fjrqvfu jbag uryc jvgu ebg
rec.sport.hockey	nhl letter quite long article apr ramsey laurentian maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes apr sol ctr columbia edu phoenix startide ctr columbia edu ali lemer writes not even going bother reply your ranting post the letter addressed gary bettman not you can reply wishes not your post addressed all quote she said the letter addressed bettman the post which though having pretty much the same content entirely different entity was addressed all when she puts the letter the mail doubt will say all figure she wanted let people here see what was since topic that interests lot folks here that entirely different purpose than sending the letter bettman unfortunately and guess let you know didn you not represent large body hockey fans any standard you care use define large people constitutes nothing more than tiny group fanatics and way representative large body hockey fans the internet let alone one the largest computer networks the world the largest computer networks the world phrase definition the internet not group whole that she claims represent for the business whether not large large compared say the number folks who are sending letter thank him for changing the names least this point and just for own curiosity thought look the official definition large the dictionary reads large having more than usual power capacity scope exceeding most other things like kind quantity size now have idea how many letters bettman may have gotten the issue how many people may have signed them people may there thereby validating definition would also wager that the geographical range signatures quite large which would give large scope might impressed the size the list names why would impressed with this unless were large course assuming that you actually agree with what you are writing and are not simply trying pain about the whole issue hear yourself speak personally don know whether not agree with the letter have very mixed emotions about like the names they are and don think they make that difficult learn the game but there might shred validity the change paul francisco the shadow angel cries catcher netcom com front line assembly
rec.sport.hockey	nhl letter roger response again assume this not just flame bait roger but actually truly held opinion article apr ramsey laurentian maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes would say that the letter clearly implies representation the views group that belong and don share those views and don believe that the majority posters hockey share those views and have intention allowing them simply ahead without making feelings the subject clear thanks for speaking for all those who didn feel was important enough say something themselves wouldn say that the letter clearly implies representation the views group that you belong represents subset that you don belong larger group which you only because this isn moderated group look there are several ways state opposing viewpoint three that come mind are follows say subtly result may not clear say directly yet politely result probably will spark some interesting conversation say directly and obnoxiously result validity goes right out the window would agree that unwarranted use said term entirely immature you realize that anything you say can and most certainly will used against you paul francisco the shadow angel cries catcher netcom com front line assembly
rec.sport.hockey	wings ogrodnick article qfpfqak vot bpedd andrew cmu edu mike molloy mmaq andrew cmu edu writes haven seen any mention ogrodnick yet the box scores does anyone know playing mike been out but isn injured played well when was put into the lineup the end the season murray has sit somebody out though the red wings hadn played well they did the first game may have been the second why should murray juggle players when the wings are dominating toronto like they are
rec.sport.hockey	sharks review part left wings article jsk apple com chuq apple com chuq von rospach writes paul fugu data com paul brownlow writes wood played most his junior career seattle was one the leading scorers mediocre team when was traded away rarely lost fight and was one the toughest players the whl wood fairly small for enforcer type mean fleury does pretty good job and isn that large but dody fleury and fleury enforcer agitator for sure but fleury never has and never will have fight which seems what you saying wood the closest fleury ever came fighting was game two years ago against los angeles there was scrum and mcsorley pinched fleury head under his arm fleury dropped his gloves and gave mcsorley weak shot the side the head mcsorely knowing good thing when saw one popped fleury one right between the eyes end fight fleury got ten stitches for his trouble the only player can ever see theo fighting cliff ronning and even then giving two inches and pounds alan
rec.sport.hockey	don cherry help out here article apr alchemy chem utoronto golchowy alchemy chem utoronto gerald olchowy writes article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes article apr alchemy chem utoronto golchowy alchemy chem utoronto gerald olchowy writes john madden picks gary clark the redskins for his all madden team lot over much better receivers for much the same reasons cherry sings the praises doug gilmour little guy with heart yet one doesn see string american posts saying that john madden has lost his marbles maybe because john madden doesn pretend that his all madden team the team the best players maybe because john madden doesn feel the need denigrate players doesn choose for his all madden team maybe because madden actually demonstrates some knowledge about football when broadcasts game don cherry doesn denigrate players except those who dive showboat wield their sticks weapons while hiding behind visors deliberating attempt injure aggravate the injuries others not always true fact the case doug gilmour actually praises them europeans that those things are scum cherry opinion canadian kids that them are tough just like real canadian ulf samuelsson cheap shots mark messier ribs and don wants ulf head doug gilmour breaks tomas sandstrom arm and don says sandstrom had coming methinks don either very confused just bigot most likely the latter used like don cherry thought was great but starting see his true colors redneck and the more see them the more think just asshole alan
rec.sport.hockey	makarov article apr csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu nelson writes don think the sharks should dig into the free agent market most the good free agents will require quite bit compensation and set the sharks back far player development goes remember the sharks were unwilling give player addition the million they offered for joe murphy and think that good approach they tried sign sergei makarov before this season because makarov wouldn have required compensation matching the makarov offer was the only real mistake dave king has made this year have wonder about the intelligence signing year old who obviously the downside his career year million contract risebrough matched the offer king request and makarov has spent the last quarter the season the press box because his work ethic just plain stinks not mention that lost step and can longer get himself into position make the nifty passes think makarov will available for free this offseason anybody who agrees pay his contract ineffective calgary but might able help team like san jose with their shortage talent there takers and makarov doesn show improvement training camp think the flames will just bite the bullet and buy out makarov contract and release him with his current attitude detriment the team alan
rec.sport.hockey	more hart trophy stuff article bkvinn abyss west sun com dvb ick david van beveren writes when you think the nhl who comes mind gilmour gretzky mario did mention mario you said gretzky you haven really been following along have you you said gilmour you are true maynard don even think the selection the hart deserves serious discussion this group brainer while agree that lemieux deserves the hart far from brainer the hart trophy goes the player most valuable his team not the best player the league your above arguement really worthless the pens without mario are still damn good hockey team the leafs without gilmour would have been fighting tampa bay for the pick like said mario deserves imho but very close race and gilmour victory would not surprise dislike doug gilmour with passion but must concede that extremely valuable the leafs alan
rec.sport.hockey	ranger fans article apr eagle wesleyan edu writes for one happy about the ranger hiring keenan too bad that they didn hire him when smith fired nielsen maybe could staightened out the babies this team and made the playoffs what this team needs little fire under their butts reading through most these hockey news don see many ranger fans writing new this system and big hockey fan and long suffering ranger fan but remember suffering builds character have some final questions about the way the team was handled that last dreadful stretch knowing they needed offensive help from the blueline why didn see mike hurlbut who played pretty well when was called when leetch first went down why joe kocur playing every night not bob probert who tough but also can play how come paul broten relegated street clothes for the end the season least plays with some heart and character draws penalties and plays when the ice was the doghouse for some reason joe cirella enough said ranger fans may suffering but some the most loyal unlike islander fans who only show when the team wins far the stanley cup goes think there only one team that can test pittsburgh and that detroit this would the most entertaining and hard fought series mario amazing kurt think joe kocus should play every night big physical guy and gets the fans into the game with some big hits both checks and fists its big advantage get the crowd going plus helps protect the other players notice there are very few fights when kocur the ice unless have seen people start after essa tikkanen only slinking away when kocur steps think big asset but should third line and special situation only play
rec.sport.hockey	sharks review part the trades nlu xenon stanford edu nelson writes acquired marcus thuresson from islanders for brian mullen grade not known yet what the impact overall this trade would thuresson not yet under contract the sharks and does not appear ready become anytime soon mullen meanwhile has had productive somewhat season with the islanders thuresson however does not appear big scorer all memory right had just points just games the swedish elite league this season didn notice his name frequently all staffan reports and didn make the national team either does not appear good sign marcus thuresson had goals assists points and pim games this season for leksand the swedish elite league this was only point scoring for leksand marcus born may relatively young might still start producing but think the sharks may have done bad trade here staffan staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson contact for swedish hockey
rec.sport.hockey	and you think espn shafted you article rrhammer cmp ilstu edu rrhammer cmp ilstu edu writes like many others too was watching the caps isles game when the went the baseball game too was pissed how could they interupt such important game understand about contracts but you would think they would have clause the contract concerning important games anyway blues and hawks fans got shafted worse while everyone the and watched the game abc however those who live the central illinois area were subjected watching the arthritus telethon the area that was most affected the telecast did not get see the game except through hawk vision this game had been televised would have been the first home hawks game shown the area since this television bull has got stop are not only being deprived seeing games due skyrocketing ticket prices but are also being deprived watching them peace hammer familiar with the telethon situation individual compuserve was also victimized and was equally pissed that was local television station contract which could not broken for that item strongly suggest you call that affiliate and vent your anger them supposedly one station had told friend that they have received hundreds angry calls which will translate into far less incentive pre empt hockey telecasts future the contract was written when the pathetic wlaf was that time slot tom galvin galvint taurus nps navy mil
rec.sport.hockey	espn article wavefront wti com matthew wavefront wti com matt coohill writes okay here some gripe ing griping whatever live santa barbara for reference think okay abc showed the kings flames fine yawn espn through fortunate rainout baseball game showed the red wings toronto game cool but swear that the advertisements all week long had said that espn would show pitt tuesday and bos buff thursday raced home from work early pacific catch the game but alas was the boston buffalo game and then they promised that they would show the pitt game thursday overnight they changed their mind rest deleted espn never committed and never saw advertised particular thursday game they had originally scheduled bos buf and that was somehow leaked this net but knowledge espn never publicly released schedule until monday when they announced pitt thursday and boston buffalo saturday tom galvin galvint taurus nps navy mil
rec.sport.hockey	espn article randolin polisci umn edu randolin polisci umn edu robert andolina writes the thing that confuses most about espn that they decided show the penguins and devils again thursday night being that both the first two games were dominated pitt you would think that they would show different game this addition the fact that they should show other games just for the sake fair exposure nesn owns the rights bruin telecasts suspect that nesn was only going sell one telecast espn remember espn only owns exclusive rights the finals not the entire playoffs since espn bought the sca contract there are less wrangles untie with showing the devils and penguins also some you should know that far can tell espn not going show campbell conference games regularly the first two rounds believe that they are only going show campbell games the first two rounds those series wear games perhaps games think the same broadcast rights factor comes into plus they have way fitting western game times into their current schedule unless the nhl was willing make western club move their game think the nhl got much could when shuffled the deck for abc also does anyone have info abc coverage for this sunday same exact coverage last week pit game the east chi stl the central cgy the mountains and west robert andolina randolin polisci umn edu tom galvin galvint taurus nps navy mil
rec.sport.hockey	habs late article apr newshub ists dchhabra stpl ists deepak chhabra writes vincent damphousse has decided take vacation apparently have respect for the power the hockey gods preventing from commenting the above and for commenting whether the guy damphousse was traded for vacation not perhaps roger demonstrably contempt the hockey gods and paying for dares comment two mike eisler mre eng sun com not only are they leafs the best team but their fans are even more intelligent and insightful than pittsburgh their players are mighty bright too mean really was going get his wallet back right jan brittenson leaf pen woofers rec sport hockey
rec.sport.hockey	let buffalo article rap psuvm psu edu robbie rap psuvm psu edu writes article afpiknm wbli isj andrew cmu edu william willis andrew cmu edu says you know never really appreciated them before looks like bob errey ring really sparkles that locker room and everyone else wants one too correct wrong though just through fuhr rings out sparkle errey and doesn bob have rings mike eisler mre eng sun com not only are they leafs the best team but their fans are even more intelligent and insightful than pittsburgh their players are mighty bright too mean really was going get his wallet back right jan brittenson leaf pen woofers rec sport hockey
rec.sport.hockey	buffalo boston defense article hsdndev harvard edu nhmas gauss med harvard edu mark shneyder writes bruins have never come back win after falling behind their entire year history which doesn mean much since the statistics are mostly based the game playoff format but yes looks dark for the what disappointment still think the problem mental they needed the saves blue came with perhaps can offer something mentally rally around who you think gets the start game three hope going blue the team can rally around him maybe moog can too jan brittenson bson gnu mit edu
rec.sport.hockey	pens fans reactions really impressed with bowman coaching tactics had answer for every move that brooks has thrown the pens susan dart such jake
rec.sport.hockey	flames final kings destroyed vzhivov superior carleton vladimir zhivov writes flames final score calgary things are back where they belong gretzky didn play kelly hrudey his old self again let hope the flames put the old timers away asap vlad the impaler yes these last couple months the kinngs have failed show about one game five presumably last night was that one game five jon
rec.sport.hockey	sharks jack feirerra was sharks kingston fired article jgl apple com chuq apple com chuq von rospach writes snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes course ferreira had also traded number veterans with marginal contributions before was fired not clear that this would have been different besides they were marginal contributors let also not forget that ferreira came this close trading kelly kisio which the rumors heard are true was over the strong objections other aspects shark management and probably had lot with both his ouster and the three headed consensus oriented imagine for second where the sharks would today that fax machine hadn jammed the other hand hard pressed think any other real mistakes fereirra made imagine indeed but then again have the benefit hindsight let say that the view the sharks upper management the attempt trade kisio was major factor the decision fire feirerra inclined take exactly the opposite view they should have kept him obviously the luckiest man hockey wonder what sacrifice made the muse fax his job guess have fun gak richard stueven aha has erected multitude new internet gak wrs com offices and sent hither swarms attmail attmail gakhaus gak sharx officers harass our people cow palace and eat out their substance
rec.sport.hockey	lemieux getting the hart jeez hope not article apr unbvm csd unb patrick walker unb wrote who should get the hart gretzky not million years least not this year hasn played all year yzerman though would nice don think get consistent but not well known thought should mario jesus bad enough for just utter the word without being extremely sick and pissed off they guy luber think should become stuntman after retires jeez enough expericene falling down oope stick didn come anywhe near gotta fall got get penalty against the other team the annual whine thon with today host jerry lewis the way canadian play little and watched hockey night canada never missed show not one these well home team the finals and was hockey fan for ten minutes now give king break with this mario the best player ever what did gretzky die wish bobby clarke and the broadstreet bullies were still around they know what with whouse like mario they bounce him around like the puck not that condone violence but make exception for mario but mario going complain about being hit someone should give him and scotty something real complain about sorry ramble you can see hate mario pat walker unb you along with mario lemieux must from another planet the only difference that lemieux comes from the one with geo washington abe lincoln and many other great men and women this world whereas you come from the one with david koresh yeah mario good drawing penalties but wouldn you try something you claim play give your team advantage don remember lemieux getting any diving penalties this year whereas many others did finally mario has never complained about being hit knows part the game gets back dishing out even bigger hit the same guy just scoring few goals setting them don you have any compassion for man who has gone through much his life george
rec.sport.hockey	 article bigboote wpi edu ching bigwpi wpi edu the logistician writes need all the players wearing the nhl know now only one ray borque for the bruins any help would greatly appreciated thanx the logistician reigns supreme blue tigers pistons lions red wings ching wpi wpi edu pierre turgeon nyi and paul coffey detorit are both hope this help anson
rec.sport.hockey	pens fans reactions terence rokop writes richard coyle writes that not inner calm boredom and being spoiled the arena been quiet church many nights this year too many just take winning for granted been seemingly forever since the team lost and forgotten what like feel real excitement and surprise victory don really agree with this but entirely different high any rate the first cup the pens won didn think about anything else just watched mario and all skate the thing around the ice now seems more question whether not thirty years from now young hockey fans may there millions will still ask what was like watch this team that what they are playing for now but was still nervous ever when the devils were blasting shots barrasso the final seconds game three the fun far from over yet not bored either most people know say that winning the second cup was better than the first but nothing will ever top that first one but every bit excited this year and experiencing that inner calm which susan originally referred inner calm not boredom far the arena general being boring well richard got that right been that way all season attribute lot new fans who just don have the same spirit and knowledge long time fans last tuesday game overheard man express surprise that goaltender can get assist anyone who follows sports with regularity knows that anything can happen any time confident the pens but also not stupid enough think for one minute that impossible for new jersey blow them out this series doubt that will happen but possible bored spoiled not the least forgot what excitement like living through that amazing streak wasn exciting don take darned thing for granted god look chicago and see problem with quietly savoring all this anyway isn gonna last forever and intend enjoy while can mom
rec.sport.hockey	nhl alltime scoring leaders here are the nhl alltime leaders goals and points the end the season again much thanks joseph achkar carl notes active player player that has scored least one point the past season the points leaders follow the goal leaders you find any mistakes please send email all time nhl leading goal scorers denotes active player gordie howe det hfd wayne gretzky edm marcel dionne det nyr phil esposito chi bos nyr bobby hull chi wpg hfd mike gartner wsh min nyr mike bossy nyi guy lafleur mtl nyr que johnny bucyk det bos maurice richard mtl stan mikita chi frank mahovlich tor det mtl michel goulet que chi jari kurri edm bryan trottier nyi pit gilbert perreault buf jean beliveau mtl lanny mcdonald tor col cgy jean ratelle nyr bos norm ullman det tor dino ciccarelli min wsh det darryl sittler tor phi det mario lemieux pit glenn anderson edm tor alex delvecchio det mark messier edm nyr dale hawerchuk wpg buf rick middleton nyr bos steve yzerman det peter stastny que rick vaive van tor chi buf joe mullen stl cgy pit yvan cournoyer mtl dave taylor steve shutt mtl denis savard chi mtl bill barber phi brian propp phi bos min gary unger tor det stl atl edm rod gilbert nyr steve larmer chi john ogrodnick det que nyr other active players bernie nicholls nyr edm pat lafontaine nyi buf brian bellows min mtl dave andreychuk buf tor tim kerr phi nyr hfd bobby smith min mtl brett hull cgy stl luc robitaille mike foligno det buf tor dave christian wpg wsh bos stl chi paul coffey edm pit det brent sutter nyi chi pat verbeek hfd ron francis hfd pit cam neely van bos ray bourque bos bob carpenter wsh nyr bos tor brent ashton van col min que det wpg bos cgy doug gilmour stl cgy tor rick tocchet phi pit kevin dineen hfd phi tomas sandstrom nyr dale hunter que wsh ryan walter wsh mtl van brian mullen wpg nyr nyi olczyk chi tor wpg nyr kirk muller mtl joe nieuwendyk cgy jimmy carson edm det all time nhl scoring leaders denotes active player wayne gretzky edm gordie howe det hfd marcel dionne det nyr phil esposito chi bos nyr stan mikita chi bryan trottier nyi pit johnny bucyk det bos guy lafleur mtl nyr que gilbert perreault buf alex delvecchio det jean ratelle nyr bos mark messier edm nyr norm ullman det tor peter stastny que jean beliveau mtl dale hawerchuk wpg buf bobby clarke phi paul coffey edm pit det denis savard chi mtl jari kurri edm mario lemieux pit bobby hull chi wpg hfd bernie federko stl mike bossy nyi michel goulet que chi darryl sittler tor phi det mike gartner wsh min nyr frank mahovlich tor det mtl ray bourque bos dave taylor denis potvin nyi henri richard mtl steve yzerman det bobby smith min mtl rod gilbert nyr glenn anderson edm tor lanny mcdonald tor col cgy rick middleton nyr bos dave keon tor hfd ron francis hfd pit bernie nicholls nyr edm brian propp phi bos min andy bathgate nyr tor det pit maurice richard mtl larry robinson mtl dino ciccarelli min wsh det steve larmer chi joe mullen stl cgy pit bobby orr bos chi brad park nyr bos det butch goring nyi bos bill barber phi dennis maruk cal cle wsh min ivan boldirev bos cal chi atl van det yvan cournoyer mtl dean prentice nyr bos det pit min ted lindsay det chi tom lysiak atl chi dale hunter que wsh john tonelli nyi cgy chi que jacques lemaire mtl larry murphy wsh min pit john ogrodnick det que nyr doug wilson chi doug gilmour stl cgy tor red kelly det tor pierre larouche pit mtl hfd nyr bernie geoffrion mtl nyr steve shutt mtl phil housley buf wpg wilf paiment col tor que nyr buf pit peter mcnab buf bos van brian bellows min mtl dave andreychuk buf tor pit martin det bos chi van pat lafontaine nyi buf ken linesman phi edm bos gary unger tor det stl atl edm ken hodge chi bos nyr neal broten min wayne cashman bos rick vaive van tor chi buf borje salming tor det jean pronovost pit atl wsh peter mahovlich det mtl pit dave christian wpg wsh bos stl chi rick kehoe tor pit rick macleish phi hfd pit det thomas steen wpg other active players macinnis cgy luc robitaille mike foligno det buf tor brent sutter nyi chi mark howe hfd phi det kirk muller mtl tim kerr phi nyr hfd adam oates det stl bos randy carlyle tor pit wpg ryan walter wsh mtl van pat verbeek hfd brent ashton van col min que det wpg bos cgy bob carpenter wsh nyr bos tor brian mullen wpg nyr nyi olczyk chi tor wpg nyr kelly kisio det nyr brett hull cgy stl rick tocchet phi pit dan quinn cgy pit van stl phi min scott stevens wsh stl tomas sandstrom nyr tom fergus bos tor van dave babych wpg hfd van mike ridley nyr wsh laurie boschman tor edm wpg ott keith acton mtl min edm phi murray craven det phi hfd kevin dineen hfd phi rob ramage col stl cgy tor min mike krushelnyski bos edm tor gary suter cgy pierre turgeon buf nyi troy murray chi wpg cam neely van bos geoff courtnall bos edm wsh stl van vincent damphousse tor edm mtl jimmy carson edm det peter zezel phi stl wsh tor guy carbonneau mtl mark osborne det nyr tor wpg chris chelios mtl chi dave poulin phi bos ray ferraro hfd nyi russ courtnall tor mtl min joe nieuwendyk cgy john maclean
rec.sport.hockey	now espn wanted show good game they could put quebec montreal game talk bout areivalry opps rivalry roland roland
rec.sport.hockey	nhl draft ariel yorku shawn luddington writes for the picks ottawa picks which means almost that alexander daigle will either stay traded montreal quebec dunno about hat have friends there genie who are now saying that ottawa gone soft daigle and thinking hard about pronger daigle has shown attitude the latter part this season many folks havne liked and after coming back from his second multi game suspension for being stupid really tanked his performance his stock dropping like rock also remember that lot teh draft stuff comes from the assumption traded quebec for lots prospects not clear that quebec would really willing pay lot for him given his current status still first round but don consider him first pick lock any means this point also possible that the senators are posturing try bring down his signing price since daigle has been taking some lindros lessons during thos suspensions imo would take kariya should alot leadership the ncaa and far the world championships daigle didn show this for his junior team san jose will then get kariya kariya won the first three for very simple reason not leaving college and don believe any the expansion teams are going use first for someone who won around for another year two not when there equally good almost good stuff available that can make immediate impact san jose seems leaning heavily towards niedermayer for that reason kariya could unless team can convince him leave school early which doubt cut things they stand today draft order ottawa daigle not pronger san jose niedermayer unless ottawa skips daigle then open depends the sharks can get deal for him don believe they draft him keep him tampa bay whoever ottawa doesn take maybe koslov chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd
rec.sport.hockey	sharks kingston fired spiegel sgi msd lmsc lockheed com mark spiegel writes gaetz may may not back next year but either event the sharks have pick others gaetz won back there been rumors was officially released right the end the season when his contract expired but haven seen confirmation was clear from talks with the sharks doctors that wasn going make for while and the sharks would have sign him contract which given his problems competing the ihl level this spring doesn make sense chuq imho von rospach esd support training dal aux chuq apple com member sfwa editor otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com san jose giants san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com the stick not san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com new seat tbd
rec.sport.hockey	bruins joe pitt edu joseph stiehm writes come boston where the hell are you seven wins row and what choke well another brian sutter team ground into the dirt with intensity during the regular season and then burned out playoff time yah fuhr has been awesome far but really you think sutter would have learned his lesson about pushing his team too far during the regular season stuart esrock bowling green state how bout them blues
rec.sport.hockey	camera work televised games article apr vax cit cornell edu yecx vax cit cornell edu writes just the camera work some these games really sad can remember how many times during the penguins devils game they showed some guy without the puck being checked the corner while the puck was being fired goal fact think they even missed one goal completely because they were showing two guys holding each other the corner now the last time watched football game they didn show the lineman going while the running back turned the corner for touchdown just greg espn has been trying various things get away from the follow the puck concept televising hockey games one the main problems with hockey that very difficult show everything that going more happens away from the puck than any other sport except maybe football and they can iso football players shown between plays the problem course that sometimes you get something worthwhile other times you get burned tom galvin galvint taurus nps navy mil
rec.sport.hockey	joseph and blues shut down warthawks blues cleveland freenet edu jim schenk writes one last point darryl sutter getting badly out coached bob berry the madder darryl gets the more reminds brian the hawks are quickly loosing thier focus don think the blues will win but you never know not sutter bash anything since idolized them players you sure would think the sutters would learn something about burning out their teams the regular season just too much intensity during the regular season earlier posted note about brian and got thinking after read this item gee both sutters won their divisions and now both have lost home ice advantage and are getting smoked their opening series the playoffs kind makes you wonder bottom line man great smoking the warthawks agreed jim this has been damn sweet far about the only thing that comes close this shutting all the maple laugh fans detroit has completely kicked their asses far but will stick with the blues for providing the best playoff tonic far stuart esrock bowling green state you blues
rec.sport.hockey	playoff consecutive loss record with the recent demise the chicago blawkhawks much delight noticed their game playoff losing streak the pens last year and now the blues and wondering what the nhl record for consecutive losses there even one pretty sure that the hawks have least game losing streak since they had have lost series since their last championship whenever that was basically need something else rag hawks fan friend with mike the insomniaced yes rush marillion emerson lake and palmer genesis dream theater mike weintraub aka jvi irc sig quote jour mweintr american edu life like scissors paper jedi wave cerf net stone game none the answers the american university always right but sometimes washington each one neil peart rush philadelphia phillies and vancouver canucks down
rec.sport.hockey	lemieux getting the hart jeez hope not article apr unbvm csd unb patrick walker unb writes who should get the hart gretzky not million years least not this year hasn played all year yzerman though would nice don think get consistent but not well known thought should mario jesus bad enough for just utter the word without being extremely sick and pissed off they guy luber ramble you can see hate mario pat walker unb not going bother reprinting your pathetic excuse for post mario fan not you have respect what can with blade for the hart trophy guess winning the scoring title after being out twenty four days with cancer then leading his team the presidents trophy and breaking the win streak record the process shouldn even qualify him for the award maybe next year tend few games when barrasso needs rest realistic mario has earned every one his accolades and deserves all the attention that gets lose the jealous attitude and you may start enjoying hockey its finest maze
rec.sport.hockey	belfour and roenick playoff houdinis have belfour and roenick done another disappearing act chips are down time when saw them looked like the blackhawks defense might carry them along way the playoffs well they held louis shots game and lost looks like maybe keenan had has some insight
rec.sport.hockey	ranger fans article apr alleg edu ballb reis alleg edu brett ball writes article apr eagle wesleyan edu writes for one happy about the ranger hiring keenan too bad that they didn hire him when smith fired nielsen maybe could staightened out the babies this team and made the playoffs what this team needs little fire under their butts reading through most these hockey news don see many ranger fans writing new this system and big hockey fan and long suffering ranger fan but remember suffering builds character have some final questions about the way the team was handled that last dreadful stretch knowing they needed offensive help from the blueline why didn see mike hurlbut who played pretty well when was called when leetch first went down why joe kocur playing every night not bob probert who tough but also can play how come paul broten relegated street clothes for the end the season least plays with some heart and character draws penalties and plays when the ice was the doghouse for some reason joe cirella enough said ranger fans may suffering but some the most loyal unlike islander fans who only show when the team wins far the stanley cup goes think there only one team that can test pittsburgh and that detroit this would the most entertaining and hard fought series mario amazing kurt think joe kocus should play every night big physical guy and gets the fans into the game with some big hits both checks and fists its big advantage get the crowd going plus helps protect the other players notice there are very few fights when kocur the ice unless have seen people start after essa tikkanen only slinking away when kocur steps think big asset but should third line and special situation only play this fast becoming game without the goons admit kocur may get the fans into the game but surely they would rather see broten taking pass from kovalev and scoring breakaway goal put the rangers magic goals the third period rather than seeing kocur take another stupid penalty and the rangers giving another powerplay goal the rangers need another top flight center who can take the pressure off messier and the first line nemchinov perfect third line center who goes beezer richter kurt
rec.sport.hockey	binghampton rangers playoff games does anyone know msg will televise any the binghampton rangers playoff games even taped replays would nice
rec.sport.hockey	pens broadcasters article mfqk awn sskqm andrew cmu edu nathan robert peters andrew cmu edu writes rumor has here pittsburgh that there going penguins broadcasting change before next season according the rumor the kbl leadership the company the broadcasts the pen games wants limit loved broadcaster mike lange radio only and hire don cherry his broadcast partner this would mean paul stiegerwald would fired good riddance does anyone know anything about this lange fun broadcaster listen and pens games wouldn the same without him also hear cherry doesn have high opinions lemieux ulf sammuelsson jaromir jagr how supposed broadcast their games believe that the large number digits his paycheck and would not binary would help don fan ulf jaro and mario nate peters lifetime penguins fan even from before they were the best kevin stamber purdue university top reasons the pittsburgh penguins won the patrick division strong desire get the cup back your neighborhood eat park where there always something special cooking
rec.sport.hockey	buffalo boston defense personally expecting moog blue played fairly decent alright spectacular times his game but moog has the experience what did blue have going for him nothing what would happen tie game the prssure then the goal tender insure that you keep the puck out the very least until your team scores blue didn face that kind pressure tuesday the bruins will come out storming that for sure really think that this series buffalo boston except for two bad passes game one really hasn played that bad believer statistics you know that your going get the puck fuhr sooner later just keep shooting there game plan sound but they need take the lead first and control the tempo imho pat ellis bruins umaine black bears number hockey east regulars season champions hockey east tournament champions paul kariya hobey baker award winner ncaa div hockey tournament champions ggggooooooo bbbllluueeee
rec.sport.hockey	oilers for sale golchowy alchemy chem utoronto gerald olchowy writes the probability that the oilers are not going anywhere gerald look what happened the stars they are off dallas pocklington has chosen this moment make his last stand because the moment maximum advantage the provincial government months away from provincial election the moment when has maximum power convince northlands give him better arena deal better purchase price and before the nhl new collective agreement with the players which might involve some enhanced revenue sharing gerald the alberta election slated fou june unless something ally goes wrong this time pocklington could end being the embarassment klein goes ahead with his ultimatum pocklington many things stupid not one them gerald people still have axe grind with this guy cannot see him staying for long can dictate terms because other cities will pay his price edmonton doesn but the people edmonton won budge trust this one edmonton has already its international airport and surrendered supremacy calgary and over the next few years edmonton going take hard hit from government cutbacks will screw itself beyond recogniton manages find way lose its hockey team too because northlands wants continue use the oilers subsidize horse racing northlands won budge ccording one the board members bruce campbell however this case about the long term financial viability the oilers the fact that pocklington basically right regardless who owns the team and right provoke the crisis now before the team accumulates millions dollars losses becomes habitually uncompetitive because lack money haven heard anything but attendance the coliseum was the lowest this year hint hint remeber what said about personal vendetta sather has done his job the oilers are poised competitive again very soon strachan one the most knowledgeble hockey writers canada post mortem the oilers season the globe and mail recently agrees with gerald don blame sather this battle between the peole and pocklington started and got worst when pocklington sold gretzky there were days when you can shake the hand pocklington when was respectalbe use season but those days are goe gerald btw when following please delete name posting writer dave shariff yadallee econ math alberta yadalle amisk ualberta god save the queen god bless all remember jesus saves lives from eternal damnation newfoundland keep good old clyde vote liberal
rec.sport.hockey	leafs now favoured article apr ramsey laurentian maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes once again the leafs overcame the red wings what was possibly the most exciting game played yet this playoff year potvin was solid and wendel completely dominated probert gilmour usual was the best player the ice and those who claim that andreychuk fades the playoffs please take note andreychuk averaging goal game stars andreychuk goals wendel all over probert probert all over everyone else todd gill also played excellent game can say enough about doug gilmour when right all well gilmour brings mind davey keon from the previous leaf dynasty predictions far track nyi over buffalo and leafs over kings leafs over nyi the final can let this pass the islanders get past pitts assuming the isles beat the caps god willing them sorry the isles will crush the leafs flame shields course one asked always interject opinions matters have concern over islanders down jets for cordially always maynard ramsey laurentian many morons and little time
rec.sport.hockey	bernie nicholls what man from matthew rush but starting push over the edge imho course holik chop barrasso neck wasn too sportsmanlike either seems that was following the the only way beat the penguins injure them philosophy pretty obvious that holik hitting barrasso was accident was even apologizing for immediately before the penguins all jumped him ralph
rec.sport.hockey	hawks article netnews upenn edu ldecock mail sas upenn edu luke decock wrote the only player the hawks have lost because they screwed peluso the hapless blues lost stevens and gave away oates okay the blues won this you must kidding right losing stevens the blues got shanahan and kept joseph then they traded oates for janney hawks fan you have got respect those hapless names lets see who scored the game winning overtime goal the game luke decock ldecock mail sas upenn david howarth howarth sbctri sbc com southwestern bell technology resources inc advanced technology laboratory pine louis
rec.sport.hockey	fuhr deserves credit was sabres sweep fuhr role article revcrinneij shelley washington edu lzuo byron washington edu joseph writes article randolin polisci umn edu randolin polisci umn edu robert andolina writes many people have suggested that fuhr play the only reason that the sabres beat the bruins while fuhr was critical factor would not overlook the fact that the sabres finally got some scoring from people other than mogilny and lafontaine khmylev sweeney hawerchuck etc indeed lafontaine played hurt and didn score many goals also the team played better defense although not great than the regular season fuhr deserves lot credit but not all robert agree with this also think fuhr contribution for sabres win just the same many palyers the team mogilny had six goals four games including two goals for the great comeback the final win after fuhr had left the key for sabres win over boston whole team strong commitment underdog and all their talent players including mogilny and fuhr think that grant fuhr deserves more credit than that while true that the entire sabres team played very well still believe that wasn for grant fuhr the series would now tied virtually stole games and for the sabres both these games fuhr stood his head give the sabres the chance win especially game fuhr made series huge stops the third period when the score was tied even game when the sabres won the score seemed indicate that the sabres dominated however hadn been for fuhr the sabres wouldn have been think was through the period and the bruins wouldn have had open the game thereby allowing mogilny score the third goal breakaway salt away the game there doubt mind that fuhr was the critical factor the victory opinion neely oates and juneau played well lafontaine mogilny and hawerchuk the sabres did get extraordinary efforts from hannan sweeney wood and khmylev compared that the bruins checkers however the bruins defense imo played better than the sabres defense the sabres have ken sutton playing regular shift afterall the difference the series was fuhr who outplayed andy moog gary sabres
rec.sport.hockey	minnesota shame article xpu constellation ecn uoknor edu hunter nsslsun nssl uoknor edu steve hunter writes hockey fan from way back and maintain interest best can here the hockey hinterlands oklahoma hoping can get reading from some you about the move the north stars dallas been under the impression that minnesota was one possibly the hockey state the why the team moving city texas that the owner greedy self serving profiteer were the stars really not making profit was the city whoever owned the arena doing some price gouging opinions please well hockey fan think terrible one thing say hey let give hockey team cities that don have one that fine entirely another say okay let take team from thriving hockey town and move course none will ever know the real inside story but from what know group minneapolis businessmen told green repeatedly that they would purchase the remaining season tickets get the level that green wanted yet refused every time pretty obvious that was determined get out minneapolis any cost and use the season tickets thing excuse was fortunate enough get the penultimate game and the fans were great people were tailgating and playing roller hockey the parking lot before the game the attendance was full have sro and the whole atmosphere the centre was terrific minnesota hockey usa how the nhl can blithely let the major league team from there move away beyond only hope they get new team soon just ali ali procrastination lemer gave nhl commissioner gary bettman puck columbia university nyc once spent the rest the day trying phoenix ctr columbia edu open pat williams orlando magic kind animals hug hockey player
rec.sport.hockey	nhl letter quite long article apr sol ctr columbia edu phoenix startide ctr columbia edu ali lemer writes hey everyone didja hear that fanatics now cool can get our own acre compound replete with weapon and ammo caches who wants barbeque ali can believe like this gets any attention this group during the playoffs ali you blabbering moron least you could waited till the end the playoffs start your dumb letter campaign ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	ahl playoff results concrete well got the scores for sat games ahl playoff scores first round home team caps games played sat baltimore binghamton rochester utica springfield providence series stati plural status adirondack defeated cdi springfield defeated providence binghamton tied baltimore rochester defeated utica john leads moncton cape breton defeated fredericton bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac and boston bruins contact for rec sport hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey division state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	calder cup playoff schedule full calder cup playoff schedule and results home team caps necesary first round springfield indians providence bruins springfield providence springfield providence providence springfield providence springfield springfield providence springfield providence springfield wins series islanders adirondack red wings adirondack cdi adirondack cdi adirondack cdi adirondack cdi adirondack wins series baltimore skipjacks binghamton rangers baltimore binghamton binghamton baltimore binghamton baltimore baltimore binghamton baltimore binghamton binghmaton baltimore baltimore binghamton utica devils rochester americans utica rochester rochester utica rochester utica rochester utica rochester utica rochester wins series moncton hawks john maple leafs john moncton halifax john moncton halifax john moncton moncton john moncton john halifax john moncton moncton john halifax cape breton oilers fredericton canadiens fredericton cape breton cape breton fredericton cape breton fredericton cape breton fredericton cape breton won bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac and boston bruins contact for rec sport hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey division state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	scores and standings april world championships germany group standings munich group standings dortmund canada czech republic russia finland sweden usa italy germany switzerland france austria norway april italy russia norway germany sweden austria usa czech republic april canada switzerland russia austria finland france april sweden canada czech republic germany switzerland italy finland usa april germany france italy sweden czech republic norway april switzerland russia usa france austria canada norway finland april switzerland austria germany finland april russia sweden czech republic france canada italy usa norway april sweden switzerland finland czech republic russia canada germany usa april austria italy france norway playoffs april quarterfinals april quarterfinals april relegation april semifinals may relegation bronze medal game may final staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson contact for swedish hockey
rec.sport.hockey	results april world championships germany group results russia switzerland rus alexei yashin rus alexei yashin rus ilia biakin rus andrei khomutov rus ilia biakin rus sergei sorokin penalties rus min min game penalty swi min referee rob hearn usa attendance canada austria can shayne corson can rod brind amour can paul kariya can gerry galley can eric lindros can rod brind amour can eric lindros can eric lindros can brian savage can brian benning can geoff sanderson penalties can min aut min attendance usa france fra antoine richer usa adam burt usa rob gaudreau usa jeff lazaro usa adam burt usa shjon podein usa rob gaudreau penalties usa min fra min referee darren loraas canada attendance finland norway fin juha riihijarvi fin kari harila penalties fin min nor min referee sven erik sold sweden attendance the best goal scorers eric lindros can rod brind amour can dieter hegen ger andrei khomutov rus geoff sanderson can ilia biakin rus adam burt usa viacheslav bykov rus jiri dolezal cze mike gartner can rob gaudreau usa patrik juhlin swe frank pajonkowski fra bernd truntschka ger jarkko varvio fin alexei yashin rus some stats fastest goal game after first face off seconds steve larmer canada game sweden ended boris michailov ussr most consecutive games without loss ussr ussr canada ussr canada staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson contact for swedish hockey
rec.sport.hockey	oilers hamilton article apr spang camosun freenet victoria tom moffat writes the oilers move hamilton what division will they play tom moffat victoria canada guess hamilton would put into the midwest with either winnipeg dallas moving the pacific bill hart macsch com
rec.sport.hockey	minnesota shame been under the impression that minnesota was one possibly the hockey state the why the team moving city texas that the owner greedy self serving profiteer were the stars really not making profit was the city whoever owned the arena doing some price gouging norman green claims that has lost money over the last three years that has owned the team when bought the team seemed kind obvious that was going have deal with few years the red before the team started making profit again gave the impression that was willing claimed two years ago that the team needed average only fans per game order pull profit but this season the team averaged fans despite increasd ticket prices think the team attendence and play was clearly upward trend which leaves dumbfounded how could ignore that deciding move was even offered the many concessions rudely demanded such guaranteed season ticket sales cheap rent the other two arenas town etc well guess the bottom line green wanted immediate huge returns dallas and wasn willing wait another year dallas gave green pretty stellar deal play there although feel minnesota was quite reasonable and also has some cronies down there well all this means that minnesota without nhl team for year two too bad for the nhl kea
rec.sport.hockey	winnipeg vancouver article unixhub slac stanford edu grogers ravel slac stanford edu greg rogers writes mkr stud hsn morten kristiansen writes read this all you canucks fan out there winnipeg are going kick vancouvers butts badly they are not going able sit down for weeks and this not joke prediction before the fourth game winnipeg winnipeg vancouver selanne steen score couple goals each winnipeg win stanley cup playoffs all you jets fanatics normal jets fans was pretty good fourth game more physical play than seen the first three games these moronic posts that have continued throughout the year about how the jets will cremeate the canucks and selanne will smash bure into the boards full why don you take cue fromm daryl and just wait till its over before you make more fool yourself not going predict anything about the canucks they are and are coming back home but not going swing any around until the series wrapped tony bravo tony too sick all the mindless fanatical blind faith jets fans who could prpbably predict the end the world more accurately than the coutcome playoff series now will admit that mindless fanatica blind faith canucks fan but unlike those from winterpeg not need vent spleen upon the world how great team know have confidence them and that enough granted the jets finished the season hot and the canucks were having trouble but vancouver has built themselves reputation for being playoff team just ask any flames fan they may not win every series but they alway fight the end admit that last year was not great but they combine the work ethic the past with the new tallent the present they will tough beat note did not say they would pummel every team they meet and destroy the greatest player playing today now like any canucks fan would love see them take the cup feel they have good chance make out the smythe and shot detroit can see them losing louis pittsburgh makes the cup have put money them yes even they facing the canucks buffalo montreal quebec beat pittsburgh choose the winner vancuover and detroit take the cup and one parting note for the jets fans just how many times has winnepeg made the finals canucks greg devorski unfortunately helped taint otherwise brilliant display maclean the canucks tied the jets tightly that thought that they were mailing them btw greg next time don fall asleep geography class pretty sad when fellow norway can spell winnipeg properly and guy north america can one more thing how long has vancouver been the nhl how many championships they have yeah and can the arena and see not one not two but six championship banners hanging from the rafters stanley cup banners and avco cup banners nhl guide says that vancouver has won the cup once many times the rockin town kenora has won daryl turner contact for the winnipeg jets internet umturne ccu umanitoba fidonet please route through tkachuk over zhamnov sel nne shoots scores the jets win the cup the jets win the cup essensa for vezina housley for norris sel nne for calder
rec.sport.hockey	caps postseason fortunes okay the caps again are about break out the golf clubs but before they does anyone have the history the washington capitals futility record the playoffs remember that terry first year was the first year that the caps finally made the third round but before under brian noticed that every other year the caps got the second round and the years between they didn make past the first round this trend continuning the admiral hopeless caps fan still remember that loss the islanders aurggghhhhhhhhh admiral steve liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu world champions baltimore orioles why not series the yards stanley cup champions washington capitals the bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed this sig has been brought you frungy the sport kings god man drilling holes through his head not the answer mccoy
rec.sport.hockey	faq for this group could someone please tell how can access the faq for this group relatively new and would like read but although seen mentioned yet see posted archived somewhere does someone post the group regular basis distributed demand appreciate any help anyone can give thanks advance mary please respond via email the articles expire within hours mail system and don always get chance read everything thanks mary blumenstock mblumens itsmail hamilton edu rangers next year course
rec.sport.hockey	leafs wings article hydra gatech edu gtd prism gatech edu hrivnak writes article apr mks com chuck mks com chuck lownie writes potvin the way has played very well kept toronto the game last night during those penalties the first period making great saves but they did end getting him the second the guy has gaa the playoffs and played very well hahahahahaa what joke did you watch the games
rec.sport.hockey	leafs wings article lmarsha cms wayne edu lmarsha cms wayne edu laurie marshall writes article apr mks com chuck mks com chuck lownie writes last nights game toronto received five penalties detroit none which game were you watching didn you see the third period when the wings had penalties called them and then delayed penalty the leafs had man advantage for about minute and man advantage for another minute two and the leafs still couldn score and wonder how the leafs scored powerplay goal according you they never had powerplay the detroit paper today said there were penalties called last night game and you saying detroit had none those penalties guessing you only watched the first period have admitt the leafs did get alot penalties that period where the wings didn get many any all haven looked the box scores yet but the ref more than made for the third period laurie marshall wayne state university detroit michigan wings apologies for the typo meant the wings had power plays the first period and the leafs none well point isn that the refs were biased just that they were calling lot penalties which works the benefit the wings having the ref call whole bunch penalties against one team then calling bunch against the other make for takes lot away from what could have been great game
rec.sport.hockey	switzerland what did happen the swiss team last year they reached the semi final and now after matches points and even goals after the against italy seems they lost any hope and were overrun the russian team now seems that they have work hard not relegated the level does anybody know this the qualification tournement for the olympic games lillehammer are some teams already qualified for them hopp schwiiz daniel
rec.sport.hockey	cbc canadian for espn article apr uwovax uwo uwovax uwo writes hooray hear tsn that the jets have won game selanne getting hat trick course here god country read ontario couldn see that game nor any other the van wpg series far because our beloved cbc figures one out here cares about this series which has looked pretty competitve far monday and wednesday nights cbc could have shown the toronto detroit game done the news then picked winnipeg vancouver they didn tonight you guessed toronto detroit the news not the end the jets game then calgary hockey night canada why can this ontarian see one the two series with two canadian teams this too much ask paul badertscher uwovax uwo like echo these sentiments this the worst coverage can ever remember seeing cbc soon the game ends can count and that time they signed off the air post game interviews updating late scores nothin tsn really putting cbc shame only hope the later round coverage improves mean who really wants see cbc primetime news instead hockey darren darren reiniger reiniger dal arishem dal centre for marine geology dalhousie university halifax canada people who wonder where this generation going should remind themselves where came from the first place
rec.sport.hockey	stewart homered the wings article andy bgsu edu bgsu edu andy bgsu edu ryan writes roger maynard wrote once again the leafs overcame the red wings what was possibly the most exciting game played yet this playoff year perhaps was the most exciting game played yet that you have seen for most who watch teams around the league with interest and objectivity was nowhere near the most exciting game paul stewart called the single worst game seen this year federov major was obvious and don dispute however chaisson penalty shouldn even have been penalty let alone major and game misconduct the minute game misc call for high sticking only there blood penalty just because chaisson barely touched the poor sap and hit the dasher and bled profusely doesn mean penalty unfortunately the instant replay not used hits first immediately thought and game because the hit looked much more severe from intent injure perspective than was after seeing the replay say deserved minutes for boarding was careless any way you slice stewart had replay not think chaisson would have gotten and the game the second period behind potvin probert had the puck and was going get out front and was tackled couldn believe the call this call was bullshit agree admire stewart for letting them but probert looked saying where the hell the penalty never seen probert whine either doesn need now probie decides put wendel through the boards probably gone right don remember who the leafs touched the puck racine shot towards the end the game seconds left but stewart called out play last touched detroit everybody the garden including the linesmen knew yzerman protested but stewart just laughed and really homered the wings this was also bullshit but once again replay was rouse btw really pissed that the linesmen didn correct the call either when the officials refuse admit they made mistake but when all comes down wings played like shit yes the calls you describe should not have the difference detroit loss picked the leafs win game emotion and adrenalin but the wings have excuses for game they should the superior team the call that pissed off the most was anderson getting for putting his stick somebody eye that was the most dangerous stick infraction have seen long time and everybody the damn league knows asshole when comes stickwork four lousy minutes bullshit call murray should send the tape wing should hammer the living shit out him dchhabra stpl ists
rec.sport.hockey	canada after preliminary round world champioships team canada defeated russia finish the priliminary round unbeaten scoring for the canadians were kevin dineen the flyers eric lindros also the flyers and paul cariya the maine black bears cariya has put quite show the worlds sure drafted the top this summer the nhl entry draft canada defeated italy and austria before meeting the russians sunday the canadians now face finland the quarter finals tuesday kevin white white hollandc holland college town pei canada
rec.sport.hockey	leafs what happened how did the leafs turn around couldn get the leaf games the weekend did the leaf defense wise overnight did the leafs get the slot was just fluke goals goalie duel did the wings turn off the jets muscle what gives here caught game satellite figured leafs were washed this major turnaround very few predicted this how how how did happen wing and leaf perspectives welcomed jake
rec.sport.hockey	caps moving berger chaos brandeis edu berger chaos brandeis edu writes heard rumors recently from reliable sources that abe polin the moron who owns the washington capitals looking move the team after this season next milwaukee was mentioned the team potential destination the person who told this strongly affiliated with the nhl and has been extremely accurate the past with news this sort does anyone know this has heard anything the sort with baltimore ahl team gone that would leave the area with only echl franchise baltimore not good thanks david why baltimore one the top media markets the only thing the nhl seems care about these days they been doing far better than the nba bullets the gate for the last five years the team has been perennial contender and fan support has been good excellent why should pollin move city that five times smaller but has many teams other pro sports don get david marcu
rec.sport.hockey	finland norway finns had their best last night when they played against norway world champs after two periods the score was still this game was quite much similar the first game finland played against france the norwegian goalie was very good and bit lucky too the third period juha riihij rvi scored from rebound the time was around mins the second goal was scored kari harila who shot straight from faceoff behind the nowwegian goalie saku koivu the year old center got his first point this tournament saku koivu played very well througout the game and was awarded the best player the game prize despite the fact that quite small size handles the puck very well and fast skater think that will hear from this guy the future
rec.sport.hockey	nhl letter quite long catcherc netcom com catcher netcom com paul francisco writes she said the letter addressed bettman the post which though having pretty much the same content entirely different entity was addressed all when she puts the letter the mail doubt will say all figure she wanted let people here see what was since topic that interests lot folks here that entirely different purpose than sending the letter bettman and damn good thing that she did post since she claims represent people rec sport hockey unfortunately the largest computer networks the world phrase definition the internet not group whole that she claims represent her sole purpose mentioning the net steve gallichio has already pointed out lend weight her points through association with the internet there other reason mention the internet this misrepresentation and the internet was private corporation alison would leaving herself wide open all kinds civil suits for the business whether not large large compared say the number folks who are sending letter thank him for changing the names least this point and just for this not letter petition claiming represent large proportion rec sport hockey users and implication significant number internet users names can way considered large proportion rec sport hockey which while have way counting actual readership accessible hundreds thousands people persons more than fly fart windstorm own curiosity thought look the official definition large the dictionary reads large having more than usual power capacity scope exceeding most other things like kind quantity size gee you looked large the dictionary what next two syllable words now have idea how many letters bettman may have gotten the issue how many people may have signed them people may there thereby validating definition would also wager that the geographical range signatures quite large which would give large scope let suggest that the only place you are likely envy the magnitude when you are looking for ways beef your scores might impressed the size the list names why would impressed with this unless were large said might impressed the size the list names but would have considerably larger but even this definition does not account for the original context from which you lifted this sentence personally don know whether not agree with the letter have very mixed emotions about like the names they are and don think they make that difficult learn the game but there might shred validity the change well then what the hell your point you don really know you have opinion about the hockey issue but you know that you don like that cordially always maynard ramsey laurentian many morons and little time
rec.sport.hockey	pens fans reactions susan dart writes amongst penguins fans there seems inner calm that never experienced before this year with the pens the players and the fans have much confidence the team this year savoring every game and saving our energy for the stanley cup that good way put quiet confidence don feel like have defend this team anymore the devils are puzzle they have long been one the few teams always dreaded playing their isn quite what used but they still usually play pretty tough just can figure out least last night they mounted attack watching some the devils players being interviewed could see their faces and eyes that they really don have any confidence they are left speechless when asked what more they can beat the pens they act though they know hopeless task bernie nichols was interviewed after game the late news was shaking his head disbelief over barrasso saying that tommy like another defenseman out there and how difficult playing against him then got this far away look his face his voice started trailing off and said just isn right just isn fair and tried muster smile really impressed with bowman coaching tactics had answer for every move that brooks has thrown the pens far coaching goes pens islanders match should pretty good one guy feel sorry for all this far chris terreri sure tom barrasso knows how feels for long tommy would look and not have teammate sight terreri teammates really left him out the cold the first two games mom
rec.sport.hockey	flames final stats and playoff news news for the first time all season the flames are now injury free the only player remaining the limp center carey wilson who even when healthy not major part the team trent yawney did not score goal all season until the last regular season game against san jose potted his first the year that game and has also scored goals both game and game against los angeles thoughts game the flames played horribly dropping the first game their series with los angeles sunday afternoon they seemed more interested throwing big hits than scoring goals they physically dominated the kings but that was the only area they dominated the game plan was rush the net and try and take advantage young inexperienced defence and the shaky kings goaltending but those plans fell the wayside while the flames conducted steady march the penalty box particularily stupid was theoren fleury taking five minute major and game misconduct for slamming warren rychel face into the dasher while rychel was his knees goaltender mike vernon played well and could not really faulted for the loss despite his well publicized poor record afternoon games got very little support from his defence clearing the front the net and sweeping away rebounds fact marty mcsorley goal actually went off chris dahlquist skate front the net thoughts game the flames came back strong the second game evidently aware the potentially fatal consequences losing both the first two games home ice the first period was fairly even with the edge going the kings but calgary came out strong the second period and simply dominated the kings scoring five goals take lead they never relinquished route win the deciding factors this game were faceoffs and special teams calgary dominated faceoffs they did game but they were able make better use the won faceoffs this game than they did the first one calgary also went for the powerplay while only went for and gave shorthanded goal joel otto powerplay goal also came late the game with the outcome already decided the kings powerplay failed them when they needed most the and periods the flames lost greg paslawski with suspected shoulder injury when was leveled alexei zhitnik right after scoring calgary goal charlie huddy left the game for the kings with groin injury the game was marred stupidity the last minute first craig berube calgary took five minute major for fighting plus game misconduct for instigating when went after tony granato for apparent reason granato drew minor for some strange reason turtling perhaps this was followed seconds later warren rychel drawing major minor and game misconduct for hitting frank musil the face with his stick and then instigating fight musil got fighting major for some similarily strange reason hardy and yawney went toe toe and both got double minors gregson thought that musil turtling amounted fighting but that yawney and hardy throwing punches each other was just roughing where this guy from upcoming games friday april sunday april tuesday april home thursday april necessary saturday may home necessary injuries carey wilson indefinite with recurring knee injuries dec calgary flames final regular season statistics pos name pts pim theoren fleury robert reichel gary suter gary roberts joe nieuwendyk sergei makarov macinnis joel otto paul ranheim greg paslawski ron stern brent ashton chris lindberg roger johansson trent yawney frank musil brian skrudland craig berube michel petit kevin dahl carey wilson chris dahlquist alexander godynyuk todd harkins paul kruse jeff reese greg smyth mike vernon thomas forslund shawn heaphy patrick lebeau andrei trefilov name min gaa save mike vernon jeff reese andrei trefilov team totals
rec.sport.hockey	oiler rumour team moving press conference next week apr alchemy chem utoronto golchowy alchemy chem utoronto gerald olchowy writes what stopping pocklington from going bank and borrowing million dollars pay off his treasury branch loans was reading according the recent tsn report peter puck not paying any interest the treasury branch loans that lot green somewhere than pocklington business have gross revenues about million per year don think would have much problem borrowing from his visa pay off his mastercard wanted again according tsn virtually everything that peter puck has already has liens against course can really sure this pocklington the point maximum advantage right now and basically right that northlands which creature the city edmonton must give him better deal the era escalating salaries northlands and the city benefitted much did during the eighties from the oilers and wealth generated the oilers success was shared but the finanical viability small market teams has radically changed the space couple years and for the oilers remain viable and competitive they need much more the revenue stream from concessions parking and building advertising most every other professional sports franchise north america has what was once fair agreement that shared the wealth now northlands sucking the blood out the oilers franchise the oiler rationale regarding the renegotiation player contracts that deal deal sather has spouted this repeatedly pocklinton has contract with northlands until deal deal perhaps included the income has received from his sale assets players such gretzky and the income has received expansion fees with his revenues wouldn losing money has admitted pulling this money out the oiler franchise put into his other businesses the oilers have paid several times over what the coliseum cost build and bring edmonton prestige and recognition throughout the world that essentially priceless nickel and dime the oilers just northlands can use revenue sucked out the oilers subsidize their horse racing operations insanity think that pocklington has received ample provincial subsidization can really blame him for going after municipal subsidization but certainly not entitled pocklington has sucked revenue out the oilers order prop his failing business interests pocklington not trusted doubt very much that any oiler team will ever again make the playoffs under pocklington stewardship soon player shows himself competent nhl and expects paid accordingly shipped off for younger players and draft picks cordially always maynard ramsey laurentian many morons and little time
rec.sport.hockey	another travesty the joe louis detroit april most knowledgable observers once again watched shock the detroit red wings again beat the best goaltender the world six times route another easy victory over the best team the nhl for the best goaltender the world felix potvin six was bad number surrendered six goals and collected six minutes penalties reponse the goon tactics employed the inferior red wings team alan told you this would happen roger didn love
rec.sport.hockey	nords habs was robbed article apr mcgill jbe jbe musicb mcgill writes aargh paul stewart the worst and most biased ref presently the nhl called total penalties the habs and one the nordiques the nords penalty came stewart being nordique himself was looking call penalties the habs while letting the nords get away with murder was robbed powerplay was bad montreal thanking stewart for calling few penalties possible quebec powerplay lethal and their advantage have penalty filled game where they can clean with their superior powerplay montreal really lost that game and game because patrick roy well his way having another one his trademark awful playoffs the man truly overrated quebec has scored six goals roy and four perhaps five were quite stoppable alan
rec.sport.hockey	results april article access digex net steveg cadkey com steve gallichio writes what the policy regarding players and the minor league playoffs versus know that the rangers are holding back kovalev zubov and andersson for binghamton but also know that the whalers wanted michael nylander play for springfield while nylander wanted play for sweden the whalers allowed the nhl decide and the nhl chose the wcs how does this differ from the rangers and oilers did the whalers have through the league could they have forced nylander play springfield long player under contract organization obligated play only where that organization tells him play gives him permission play the rangers are certainly within their rights force zubov and andersson report binghampton certainly does reflect lack class the part the ranger organization however having binghampton win the calder cup really more important them than keeping their players happy alan
rec.sport.hockey	nhl team captains and while are the subject has captain ever been traded resigned been striped his title during the season any other team captain trivia would appreciated brad mccrimmon was the captain the flames when was traded detroit following the season this was during the off season though there countless examples captains being traded sure alan
rec.sport.hockey	nhl letter roger response apr sol ctr columbia edu phoenix startide ctr columbia edu ali lemer writes gee what coincidence doesn share views perhaps that why his name not the list accompany the letter maybe should write disclaimer the end bettman nota bene roger maynard does not agree with this letter know worried otherwise you wouldn have put name the bottom you simply appended standard disclaimer that the opinions expressed your petition way claim represent the views either rec sport hockey the internet whole you have surely seen these disclaimers appended the postings many who work for companies and post the net the disclaimers clever though some them may are there for reason cordially always maynard ramsey laurentian many morons and little time
rec.sport.hockey	where roger speaking roger and ilk whatever happened good gln had him kill file since last year playoffs and now that moved new news reader which doesn have kill files find that gone must admit however that unlike gln roger seems know something about the game long the subject doesn touch the leafs ray skirsky rskirsky qualcomm com
rec.sport.hockey	nhl letter roger response catcherc netcom com catcher netcom com paul francisco writes wouldn say that the letter clearly implies representation the views group that you belong represents subset that you don belong larger group which you only because this isn moderated group and you can bet that wouldn the only one not belonging the moderated group was moderated anally retentive little dullard like yourself look there are several ways state opposing viewpoint three that come mind are follows hardly need you presume lecture how communicate points view this posting that you have made the second the subject the nhl letter and you have yet communicate your opinion the matter instead you content yourself with flaming say directly and obnoxiously result result moronic little busy bodies like yourself take advantage perceived opportunity post rules for others live you realize that anything you say can and most certainly will used against you well using against means you are going post something significance then all means ahead insist otherwise why don you just back sleep whatever that you when you are all yourself cordially always maynard ramsey laurentian many morons and little time
rec.sport.hockey	why blues pulverized chicago weeniehawks sesrock andy bgsu edu stuart esrock writes hitting hawks tried outmuscle blues but could not instead blues matched hawks hit for hit and crunched the shit out them game scud line shanahan butcher and zombo particularly took turns bashing favorite targets like chelios skating when the hawks tried outskate blues they could not that either nelson emerson finally showed and skated circles around flat footed chicago defense hedican felsner ron wilson and others also proved that with old cement skaters like goulet and keith brown blues could lap chicago relay race agree with but you are wrong about fact the only point where the hawks any way matched the blues was when they quit trying outmuscle and instead tried outskate the blues they scored and took the lead too bad was game and they then took some stupid penalties when the hawks skated they outskated the blues and took control ian neath there are four kinds people this world neath psych purdue edu cretins fools morons and lunatics eco
rec.sport.hockey	caps postseason fortunes article rhddoinn jhunix hcf jhu edu admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu steve liu writes okay the caps again are about break out the golf clubs but before they does anyone have the history the washington capitals futility record the playoffs remember that terry first year was the first year that the caps finally made the third round but before under brian noticed that every other year the caps got the second round and the years between they didn make past the first round this trend continuning this not trend the caps were done goneso five games and saves caps fans lot pain mean would more painful the caps were watching them tumbled when they need one more win clinch the series how many times have they done that their history five game series against the isles lost straight against the isles lost straight against the pens lost straight other words when they were about clinch with games they were pitiful the lone wins being sweep philly the win against the rangers the patrick finals the only time they managed get out the division actually saturday blown lead wasn anything new all know the caps are famous lead blowers crucial playoff games examples game against the isles led after two lead series gave goals the period including the game winning goal the last minute after that goal bobby carpenter botched penalty shot series tied lost game few days later game against the rangers led series led the period blew lost game and three consecutive games game against pittsurgh led series led period blew and the series game against isles series tied led after blew game against isles trailed series led period blew again when they were leading game said myself they blew this lead the series over they have lost all the momemtum the islanders believe they can come back matter what the score still waiting for cap goalie who can carry the team who can completely shut down the opposition when they are hanging their dear lives crucial game the admiral hopeless caps fan still remember that loss the islanders aurggghhhhhhhhh well some teams such have and some teams just don when the caps were frustrated year year out the islanders was thinking wait until potvin bossy trottier smith retire well they retired even though trottier was still able haunt the caps pens uniform yet another generation islanders were still doing the same thing well guess has nothing with the players edward lor lor cbnewsk att com
rec.sport.hockey	winnipeg vancouver article unixhub slac stanford edu grogers ravel slac stanford edu greg rogers wrote feel they have good chance make out the smythe and shot detroit can see them losing louis gee they lost louis twice this year maybe you should have your eyes checked canucks greg blues the rodney dangerfield team they get respect except chicago mabee david howarth howarth sbctri sbc com southwestern bell technology resources inc advanced technology laboratory pine louis
rec.sport.hockey	maybe next year hawks article apr vax cns muskingum edu jbrown vax cns muskingum edu wrote belfour played well but hardly saw any offense from any hawk what want know where was roenick far can tell was right next bassen don you guys love when people like come out the woodwork david howarth howarth sbctri sbc com southwestern bell technology resources inc advanced technology laboratory pine louis
rec.sport.hockey	regular season pool nhl hockey pool denis papp and chris stoochnoff rules pick players goalies you may pick any players from any team points for players are follows point per goal point per assist point per pim points for goalies are follows points per win point per tie point per assist point per pim points per shutout points per goal entries entries can sent mail ascii text file chris stoochnoff denis papp hard wired bbs due date for entries the first day regular season play after that more entries will accepted unless just slightly late that the case there will small penalty applied the team internet users can send email dpapp muskwa ucs ualberta prizes prizes have not yet been considered they could range from nothing free time hard wired bbs even something else you have any suggestions please feel free put your two cents worth one idea get whoever willing submit equal amount money and that will the prize money the prize money will the top team who has submitted the prize pool list all people who submit money will posted well those who didnt done this way cost the cost absolutely nothing there absolutely fee for this pool note you have any questions please feel free send them denis papp myself chris stoochnoff the players positions brett hull right wing will decided the year book will using you not know certain players position you are not completely sure what position plays then ask and tell you and for great time call the hard wired bbs this will the location where the pool standings will displayed internet users contact denis papp just email dpapp muskwa ucs ualberta standings will distributed email well
rec.sport.hockey	leafs what happened guys what happened potvin didn let six goals wendel and andreychuk woke home ice and lots yelling the gardens gave the leafs the emotional edge refs calls especially last night tended favour leafs couple comments gilmour just because the guy isn one the three stars doesn mean was not leading the team someone posted the playoff point total and something like fifth sixth place plus walked away with the molson cup given for accumulating points from the three star selection during the regular season the officiating heard gripes from both ends this one emotions are very high this series the rivalry one the stronger ones know have agree that the officiating last night was pro leaf general except for whoever missed that slash gilmour hand general still think detroit has one the better chances pittsburgh though think the leafs would better against the blues but not well they made out the division problem like both these teams though supporting the leafs the underdog principle the way gilmour tiring out lot like bob probert not playing aggressive hockey the way not any sort expert nor claim just like watching good matchup tee hee hee ooops susan
rec.sport.hockey	more hart trophy stuff apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes article apr mtroyal caldwell mtroyal writes the hart trophy goes the player most valuable his team not the best player the league your above arguement really worthless personally always thought that most valuable his team was silly why should the best player the league penalized because plays team with other good players why should lesser player picked solely because the best player weak team wouldn the weaker team helped even more the best player the league doesn the presence the best player the league make the other players the team look better too the hart trophy was orginally awarded time where people did not think terms who was the best player rather terms who was the most valuable the team and valuable his team was not and should not considered synonymous with best are talking about time when honour and attitude not measurable skills were the most important assets player brought his team his league and his sport this was before the onslaught professionalism which has clearly denigrated what was formerly the foremost peacetime pursuit glory the hart trophy not prize honour cordially always maynard ramsey laurentian many morons and little time
rec.sport.hockey	blues sweep hawks while will first congratulate the blues for their victory think must realized that the primary reason the blues were able win was curtis joseph when goalkeeper gets hot there little opposing team can joseph should given the entire city louis because otherwise there would probably game scheduled for the game sunday the blues caught few breaks without doubt one was the referee constantly watching the blackhawks looking for reasons give them penalties second the blues first goal resulted because the puck hit the linesman the blackhawks attempted clear linesman shot for brett can redirect anything hull redirect another louis goals belfour was tripped from behind went make the save someone who didn belong the crease which means was louis player finally the overtime goal was caused because someone kept belfour from getting back the crease goalie way stop the shot congratulate louis for beating the hawks will shame see bryan murray finally advance the campbell conference finals because joseph won able stop the powerful red wing attack the world reknown jason boskey mail bosk uiuc edu known throughout the world the bosk christ you know ain easy all rights reserved all lefts enhanced you know how hard can the way things are goin here they come spinning out the turn they gonna crucify
rec.sport.hockey	team pool standings standings reflecting completed series round participant points final roland behunin cal que que dave wessels van pit pit barfly tor bos tor dean det pit pit lak bos lak garry tor bos bos brian bergman det pit det mopar muscle men chi pit pit last place picks chi pit pit milton keynes kings det pit pit sam his dogs det pit pit ding det pit pit tampere stars chi pit pit the mighty hedgehogs myllyp chi bos bos homesick hawaiian van pit pit killer kings chi was chi puggy greybeards det pit pit ottawa bearcats tor pit tor andrew kirk tor pit pit muller walker det pit pit excalibur det pit pit rednecks from hockey hell det bos bos the rangers chi pit pit jeff phelps det pit pit arctic circles det pit pit sludge det pit det the logistician det pit det hillside raiders chi bos bos danielle chi que que stanias stars chi bos bos bloodhook det pit pit gilles carmel chi pit pit pasi nti lak pit pit evan pritchard van pit pit skriko wolves det pit pit rangers blow cal pit pit sean det pit pit schott shooters chi pit pit gary shiff tor pit pit mike burger det pit det darse det pit pit mike burger canada includes quebec ontario mmb lamar colostate edu the maritimes the prairies and florida beginning computing stud four months year over students served royal canadian air farce university michigan colorado state university
rec.sport.hockey	finland apr math ucla edu dstein oak math ucla edu david stein writes jarkko ketolainen writes disaster finland was beaten czech finland will pool and will most certainly meet canada the quarter final wednesday look the situation positively the finns can now kick canada out they did last world cup and eventually lost sweden the final peter
rec.sport.hockey	wings news and playoff thoughts article apr mtu edu kcsmith mtu edu smith writes don think shown that good enough carry detroit the cup the team may good enough reach the finals but cheveldae their achilles heel you must have goaltending the playoffs and cheveldae looks like overmatched stringer which probably guess don know too many string goalies that could post over wins season chevy has done that the past two seasons playing behind defense that not exactly the best the league his wins this year were not all against toronto and for those who look vincent rien stats and think should starting take look the teams played against teams like san jose ottawa and any nhl goalie could post decent record playing teams like that night and night out look for detroit management remedy the situation the offseason really don see this happening they didn think cheveldae could the job they would traded for somebody this year after all why wait until next year when there were goalies available this year hey may wrong but after watching him kick rebound after rebound into the high slot don think can carry them the tough games those not against toronto better kick out rebounds than let goals louis gets past chicago watch for joseph carry the blues past otherwise vastly superior red wings club joseph hot but are the wings they have scored six goals both their games far with toronto supposively one the leagues best defenses guess they end playing for the norris title see what happens the devils advocate drinkin women guns don mix ubvms buffalo edu awkorbut acsu buffalo edu mark arm kcs wings hopefully far cheveldae concerned decent goalie the most logical trade the offseason would between detroit and rangers sure beezer would traded would enjoy the opportunity back his roots detroit would valuable asset the wings and perhaps the rangers could get zombo return beezer got few good years him and the opportunity get fresh start would energize his play
rec.sport.hockey	hawks lose yawn april maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard wrote look for the leafs led healthy doug gilmour and confidence restored felix potvin the blues the leafs will have more games with the wings and that should give joseph few extra days pass those horshoes roger the dodger back the bandwagon that jack please tell you don get this message rosereader entered rose rosemail rosenet usenet gateway rose media
rec.sport.hockey	montreal versue quebec did anyone see the montreal quebec game yesterday was tight right down the last second the third period the overtime roy and hextall played like they were gods montreal won they deserved after getting their first goal overtime waved off because the puck was hit with high stick their second goal overtime was also replayed but could not tell was the montreal player who kicked the puck definitely was not directed stick anyways montreal back into the series dave vergolini michigan state university vergolin euler lbs msu edu
rec.sport.hockey	where are all the bruins fans article rap psuvm psu edu robbie rap psuvm psu edu writes just wondering where all the bruins fans are mean they woofed with about posts during the regular season saying that their fave team was going kick everyone the playoffs and win the stanley cup while see nothing wrong with little ranting and raving just curious why all the boston faithful have stopped posting mean haven even see just one little boston fan post cept for the bruins fans that aren cocky well maybe they all out the golf course something but don know sure like see where all those bruins fans are robbie streakers what comes naturally patrick division semi pgh penguins you see now wait for the penguins devils stanley possibility don you see penguins lead cup champions strong resemblance here the middle connecticut there are plenty bruin fans many who have let know uncertain terms that the rangers choked down the stretch think the bruins are doing the same exact thing the rangers did they playing too tight who responsibility check mogilny has gotten off number quality shots goal which there are many rebounds which are not being cleared the defense too bad the might not get the opportunity play pittsburgh again would really enjoy seeing ulfie get beat neely all hate ulfie but would love him are team
rec.sport.hockey	usenet hockey draft winning team regular season was asked post the team log this year winning team the regular season draft here tis begin dave wessels reading team dave wessels from database log all team log name team points value bought week sold week trevor linden van pre cliff ronning van pre robert reichel cgy pre pat verbeek hfd pre pat falloon pre john maclean pre eric lindros phi pre rick tocchet pit pre greg adams van pre mike ricci que pre joe juneau bos pre kevin hatcher wsh pre teemu selanne wpg pre pavel bure van pre dixon ward van pre russ courtnall min darren turcotte nyr christian ruuttu chi petr nedved van petr klima edm tony granato steve duchesne que alexander mogilny buf ray sheppard det steve larmer chi vincent damphousse mtl tony amonte nyr brendan shanahan stl corey millen johan garpenlov kelly kisio pat elynuik wsh benoit hogue nyi pat flatley nyi rod brind amour phi michal pivonka wsh joe mullen pit john cullen tor stephane richer jeff norton nyi glenn anderson tor ray bourque bos bernie nicholls andrew cassels hfd dmitri kvartalnov bos tomas sandstrom joe sakic que rob blake derek king nyi michel goulet chi mike modano min dmitri khristich wsh alexander semak nikolai borschevsky tor mike donnelly jeff brown stl thomas steen wpg kevin dineen phi mario lemieux pit wayne gretzky you have cash points week your team placed teams andrew scott andrew idacom com idacom telecom operation ext during the roman era was considered old
rec.sport.hockey	blues sweep blackhawks article rap psuvm psu edu robbie rap psuvm psu edu says michael virata says michael mvs cec wustl edu devils consultant and how bout those devils over the penguins hahahahahahah attention all penguins fans the pens win game show some laughter that mail box address listed above thanks attention penguins fans once again apparently you understand that this was just joke hence the next but one idiot here doesn got pissed and sent two hate mails telling that this wrong have intentions sending mail anyone should the pens win tonight and really not expect not intend lead any you send this poster mail either was not serious request you didn know that which you probably did then don thanks robbie streakers what comes naturally patrick division semi pgh penguins you see now wait for the devils penguins stanley possibility don you see penguins lead cup champions strong resemblance
rec.sport.hockey	caps postseason fortunes article rhddoinn jhunix hcf jhu edu admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu steve liu says okay the caps again are about break out the golf clubs but before they does anyone have the history the washington capitals futility record the playoffs remember that terry first year was the first don give soon lot burgh fans didn give last year you gotta believe hard that may seem with the caps with the power play the playoffs and penalty killing according mike lange all the caps have make sure doesn that was boston and chicago demise can curse
rec.sport.hockey	where are all the bruins fans good point there haven even been any recent posts about ulf secretly convinced that responsible for the being down buffalo somehow
rec.sport.hockey	buffalo sabres buffalo fans red wings fan but amazed how the sabres are beating the bruins there any reason for this grant fuhr mogilny and lafontaine would like hear from you since not know much about the sabres dave vergolini michigan state university vergolin euler lbs msu edu
rec.sport.hockey	cbc canadian for espn article tef dal reiniger dal darren reiniger says like echo these sentiments this the worst coverage can ever remember seeing cbc soon the game ends can count and that time they signed off the air post game interviews updating late scores nothin tsn really putting cbc shame only hope the later round coverage improves mean who really wants see cbc primetime news instead hockey darren this was concession mansbridge and cbc news they argued that you going play havoc with the schedule you should least make sure that prime time aired soon possible news got commitment that the post game show would scrapped and that the network would ptn within one minute the game ending for the earlier comments about cbc being ontariocentric frankly the doubleheader decison goes both ways people the west cant see the leafs and people central canada can see the jets game the reason for the decision was cbc feeling they couldn sell advertising for six hours hockey one night for who wants see news over hockey lot people cbc always gets plenty complaints about juggling the news schedule darren reiniger reiniger dal arishem dal centre for marine geology dalhousie university halifax canada people who wonder where this generation going should remind themselves where came from the first place
rec.sport.hockey	real fans there was discussion about how real fans were ones who respect their teams matter bad they are that bullshit anyone who would follow the pens the pirates parts the early eighties devoted basis are losers follow and concerned about your home team but give them respect even when clear the management and the players suck should not required true fan true fan would follow the team troubled times the extent that they could discuss how improve the team when visit pittsburgh refuse pirates game since think the management has given pittsburgh team which could have been much better even they couldn sign barry bonds lert say the pens start doing their own team what the oilers have done this year and what the whalers have done recent years would hard pressed show much enthusiasm for the team still follow and bitch about but won waste money mediocre teams ravin ratnam
rec.sport.hockey	winnipeg vancouver david downie dave downie commerce ubc wrote speaking paddock what doing slagging sandlak sandlak puts his mind can physical presence and waking him might real mistake isn sandbag out with injury now anyways perhaps paddock meant say that momesso was the cheap short artist after all that would make more sense wpg umward ccu umanitoba computer science manitoba
rec.sport.hockey	nhl letter you wanted send your own letter the nhl where would you send brett ball
rec.sport.hockey	winnipeg vancouver article ccu umanitoba umturne ccu umanitoba daryl turner writes yeah and can the arena and see not one not two but six championship banners hanging from the rafters stanley cup banners and avco cup banners nhl guide says that vancouver has won the cup once many times the rockin town kenora has won don let this confuse anybody the winnipeg jets have never won the stanley cup even come that close these stanley cup championships back long way about the turn the century the winnipeg victorias won one more these cups the jets didn win any them can you think anything more irrelevant argue about playoff series going today than who won more stanley cups around the turn the century lets face facts the canucks are leading the series the canucks dominated the jets their season series the canucks did better the regular season than winnipeg who the better team think that the facts show that vancouver better than winnipeg gregmeister
rec.sport.hockey	the amazin isles watch out pitsburgh here come the isles they said wouldn make the playoffs and came third they said the caps would beat and they not going they say that pitsburgh has ratio winning the cup but prove them wrong bring back home
rec.sport.hockey	don cherry new pens annoucer lli cmu edu lori iannamico writes article published this morning pittsburgh post gazette kbl the pgh cable sports channel president bill craig has confirmed that has had preliminary talks with the mouth the north don cherry craig said interested hiring cherry color commentator and for post game duties others being considered for the open broadcasting jobs are current pens announcers mike lange and paul steigerwald craig spoke both yesterday kbl stan savaran and guy junker espn mike emrick broadcaster doug mccloud and tsn jim hughson kbl and the penguins have just inked new deal giving kbl all and radio rights pens games plans are that kbl would like have entire night hockey starting with pre game show and running post game show that would sign off about depending upon length the game don cherry announcing penguins games yeah and quote pgh goofy mayor the queen sheba considering how often and how badly has slammed the pens coach corner hockey night canada would surprise well but then people will anything for money won they lori contact for the penguins lli cmu edu randy
rec.sport.hockey	wings will win gballent vancouver uvic greg ballentine writes article orasis vis toronto edu bdown vis toronto edu brian down writes stuff deleted for example look pat quinn the canucks not saying that the best merely better one than murray and one very familiar with traded garth butcher good player and dan quinn not the nhl anymore louis for cliff ronning geoff courtnall sergio mommesso and robert dirk too good true right think this goes along with comment you made earlier post namely quinn taking advantage major league bonehead for louis this trade was absolutely stupid trade for louis and was not the only stupid trade that this guy made can give quinn credit for being opportunist here stuff about other trades deleted plus his team has improved much greater amount than detroit since took over with them how you figure both vancouver and detroit did the same thing last year they both won their division they had close the same number points they both went down the first round the playoffs before finally escaping games and they both got knocked out the second round teams they should have been able beat with less talent specifically remember correctly third place teams how does this make vancouver more improved further not mistaken the wings had more points than vancouver the end this season albeit not many gregmeister randy
rec.sport.hockey	oilers hamilton article apr spang camosun freenet victoria tom moffat says the oilers move hamilton what division will they play and won they have change their name the steelers something the only significant deposits oil around hamilton are those caused the tire fire few years back then again the nba can have the utah jazz the lakers think about what lakes are then guess the nhl can have the hamilton oilers
rec.sport.hockey	senators sign top draft picks reports ottawa today say that the senators have come verbal agreement with last seasons first pick and overall choice alexei yashin year deal well the senators have signed their second round pick chad penney who currently playing for the sault ste marie greyhounds the ontario junior league playoffs mike amico bnr ottawa ontario
rec.sport.hockey	stewart homered the wings andy bgsu edu bgsu edu andy bgsu edu ryan writes paul stewart called the single worst game seen this year federov major was obvious and don dispute however chaisson penalty shouldn even have been penalty let alone major and game misconduct don notice refs and linesmen until the playoffs come around and yes have agree that stewart called the two worst games seen far mtl quebec game and last nights toronto detroit game what the scoop this guy the latest incarnation kerry fraser just because you are boneheadedly stubborn doesn make you good ref making the right call does votes for best ref van hellemond most improved koharski worst paul stewart oops don really want start best worst ref thread don follow paul yatrou
rec.sport.hockey	don cherry new pens annoucer kbl and the penguins have just inked new deal giving kbl all and radio rights pens games plans are that kbl would like have entire night hockey starting with pre game show and running post game show that would sign off about depending upon length the game don cherry announcing penguins games yeah and quote pgh goofy mayor the queen sheba lori contact for the penguins lli cmu edu well was watching hockey hotline last night and stan said that the station kbl had been recieving calls all day concerning this subject and the verdict was that almost exclusively nobody wanted that load mouth know all blow hard former bruin whiner ulf hating scum sucking missery pittsburgh permanent basis that not exactly what stan said did bit interpriting the cmu kiddie
rec.sport.hockey	nhl letter quite long obnoxious name calling deleted who wants off here say get his net privleges revoked any seconds skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite braves effect you mike patton faith more hornets capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	nhl letter quite long roger shut thank you skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite braves effect you mike patton faith more hornets capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	minnesota shame hockey fan from way back and maintain interest best can here the hockey hinterlands oklahoma hoping can get reading from some you about the move the north stars dallas been under the impression that minnesota was one possibly the hockey state the why the team moving city texas that the owner greedy self serving profiteer were the stars really not making profit was the city whoever owned the arena doing some price gouging much like see the nhl only hour drive from can help but feel for the people minnesota unless they truly didn support the team opinions please used work for the stars minnesota supported the team extent when was there had quite afew sellouts this was the season after the cup run and during the finals norm main bitch was that there wasn enough luxury suites and the ones had were not always full wanted more boxes and wanted them full was just asking for too much from people that could and see other hockey games high schools for college for about that would probably better mark qmpro radioactive cats are very very hot origin origin line not defined goedit
rec.sport.hockey	springfield indians ahl office here something crossposted from the ahl mailing list discussion between and chris lerch the subject springfield round upset the providence bruins came chris basically raised the possibility that the ahl hierarchy biased favor the indians noted that the offices for the league are spring and many indians are working for the ahl furthermore also informed that back few years ago the cup finals between roch and spring that the amerks charged favoritism the office and that there were little questionable things liket ahl president and staff attending all games with the springfield brass including sitting their box for the game springfield and according the rochester media openly cheering for springfield certainly this something that quite serious any this true don know this anything more than whining the part the amerks they have pulled this sort crap against the wings before but true this somthing that seriously raises questions about president jack butterfield leadership btw this was posted with the permission chris bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac and boston bruins contact for rec sport hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey division state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	wash isl game this comes indirectly from morgani who works the studio for espn hockey the management espn was reluctant leave the pitt game even though the outcome was certain because fear the wash game going overtime when the caps scored with left tie the game said heard many people say espn under contractual obligation show baseball and could not broadcast the the hockey game next year espn will introduced baseball fans can watch baseball and hockey fans can watch hockey get off espn back and stop posting articles this subject there have been many complainers about this game that making sick geoff filinuk
rec.sport.hockey	pool italy sweden canada sweden russia italy austria switzerland
rec.sport.hockey	nhl letter quite long article apr sol ctr columbia edu phoenix startide ctr columbia edu ali lemer writes ali procrastination lemer gave nhl commissioner gary bettman puck columbia university nyc once spent the rest the day trying phoenix ctr columbia edu open pat williams orlando magic kind animals hug hockey player nice sig like the change btw could you post the names the people who are going the letter and sure others would like know are included not want roger fool skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite braves effect you mike patton faith more hornets capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	switzerland article apr vms huji hechel vms huji writes does anybody know this the qualification tournement for the olympic games lillehammer are some teams already qualified for them hopp schwiiz daniel the top teams this tournament will play the olympics next year the last team this tournament top two pool great britain and poland and the winner pool latvia will play for the last olympic spot next fall however next year hosts norway were finish which would surprise then the team pool that will have play the qualification tournament marko tervio
rec.sport.hockey	caps moving why would pollin want move the caps because think owns the cap centre know they don sell out all their games but they draw lot more than the bullets you had the situation that abe had would you move you were guaranteed that anyone who went the games would have park the stadium because there has been nothing within half mile until the recent construction the area can they win game again rich you read the hat now see the movie imus the morning blurb you blurb seinfeld
rec.sport.hockey	buffalo boston defense article bson apr nutrimat gnu mit edu bson gnu mit edu jan brittenson writes which doesn mean much since the statistics are mostly based the game playoff format but yes looks dark for the what disappointment the fat lady about hit the first note okay how about deficits the chances for comeback are now less that based game playoff format who you think gets the start game three hope going blue the team can rally around him maybe moog can too got the start but the headlines all boston local sportscats said all sutter blue and did harry sinden appearance outside dressing room after game was pathetic site said something really retarded cover sutter behind this game not about winning losing harry check the schedule your team the playoffs and about long summer vacation sunday morning harry and his buttkisser milbury will never admit that they screwed major way when they brought one the dumbest people the business brian sutter sutter playoff record the head coach louis speaks for itself the blues really have chance advance the second round this year ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	regular season pool this what came with using the final regular season stats for the which you can find the april edition the usa today try out and see what you come with adam oates bruins pts teemu selanne jets pts alexander mogilny sabres pts pavel bure canucks pts vincent damphousse canadians pts dave andreychuk mapleleafs pts phil housley jets pts paul coffey redwings pts sergei fedorov redwings pts andy moog bruins pts infrate capitials pts patrick roy canadians pts macinnis flames pts dennis savard canadians pts calle johansson capitals pts yuri khmylev sabres pts richard smehlik sabres pts total points pts most valuable player adam oates rookie the year teemu selanne most improved player vincent damphousse defenseman the year phil housley goalie the year patrick roy
rec.sport.hockey	another travesty the joe louis article apr mtroyal caldwell mtroyal writes detroit april most knowledgable observers once again watched shock the detroit red wings again beat the best goaltender the world six times route another easy victory over the best team the nhl for the best goaltender the world felix potvin six was bad number surrendered six goals and collected six minutes penalties reponse the goon tactics employed the inferior red wings team alan told you this would happen roger didn love where roger anyway haven heard from him awhile must out the golf course waiting for the leafs join him any day now laurie marshall wayne state university detroit michigan wings
rec.sport.hockey	wings news and playoff thoughts roots detroit would valuable asset the wings and perhaps the rangers could get zombo return wake and smell the norris rick zombo was traded the blues for vince riendo last season mike
rec.sport.hockey	wings news and playoff thoughts far cheveldae concerned decent goalie the most logical trade the offseason would between detroit and rangers sure beezer would traded would enjoy the opportunity back his roots detroit would valuable asset the wings and perhaps the rangers could get zombo return beezer got few good years him and the opportunity get fresh start would energize his play only problem that zombo was traded louis last year for goalie vincent riendeau think that while chevy not among the elite class goalies adequate given the offensive firepower the wings greg
rec.sport.hockey	hey what about teh cannucks grogers slacvx slac stanford edu greg rogers writes all due living the bay area unable see vancouver victory over the jets last night know the score but that rarely describes the game could someone please post brief sonapsis waht happened how well did each team play were the cannucks deserving the victory well opinion the canucks played really strong game was especially pleased very strong game from linden think could key success for them this year defensively they really had strong game hardly heard selanne name all night craven also played one his best games since coming over with few exceptions they really didn let the high flying jets much high flying thought the jets defence looked overmatched the canucks forwards they will have improve that they want make this series short was great start chris roney mail chris roney sfu
rec.sport.hockey	canucks over winnipeg the jets gave the canucks another run for their money almost identical game the first the series but once again came short vancouver outscored winnipeg the pattern the first game was repeated tonight with the canucks scoring quickly and then going sleep the second period only stave off jet comeback with opportune goals from their greater talent the jets looked more dangerous this one but didn make difference the numbers that counted goals vancouver big line produced again with centre cliff ronning and left winger geoff courtnall scoring the first and the second boost the canucks lead giveaways the suspect jet defence bautin and ulanov mental lapses the defence and goal scoring talent opportune areas made the difference all three canuck goals however the first game the jets worked hard take the game the canucks the second period the jets dominated the second checking hard and penetrating the vancouver zone without being challenged canuck team that wanted pack early the hard work paid off late the second when tie domi caught vancouver goalie kirk mclean surprise with sharp angle shot make the score domi goal gave the jets new life they began take the rush the canuck collapsing defence the canucks were unwilling anything but let mclean take shots and clear the rebounds the jets were allowed set and make plays both goalies made standup saves the play picked considerably mclean made three great saves the second off dancing teammu selanne while essensa was rocked pavel bure drive selanne looked dangerous the rush the jets pressed series attacks into the canuck zone the canucks the other hand looked like they were offering four checking lines effort preserve their slim lead series minor penalties the end the second period resulted one man advantage for the jets the early third the jet tempo numminen drove puck from the point through mclean legs and into the net tie the game the canuck discordant play picked where left off this was characterized long lead passes that either never connected were picked off the jets and individual rushes into tight winnipeg defence that were never supported however the first and second canuck goals jet defensive lapse bonehead play stalled the winnipeg comeback with the faceoff the winnipeg zone pavel bure was left stand the crease with jet defender anywhere near him bure who had been invisible the game that point took rebound and managed roof with backhand even though was off balance then was too late for the jets come back essensa made the bench with one minute but the extra attacker did nothing for their attack canucks winnipeg next game friday winnipeg with the jets the hole two games
rec.sport.hockey	nhl letter quite long article apr ramsey laurentian maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes apr sol ctr columbia edu phoenix startide ctr columbia edu ali lemer writes dear bettman ali letter deleted for brevity roger acid laced response removed maybe should get together and establish some kind mandatory maturity level keep some this stuff off the air roger your responses might just exclude you from sharing your opinions then you see the same rights ali has mail her letter the nhl are the same ones that let you post replies that mow her down like wheat harvest time she never said she represented the entire internet the entire group rec sport hockey she has every right state her opinion along with those the fifty sixty hundred odd folk who agreed allow her list their names the bottom you may not agree with fine really don care enough about the name change care your name isn attached why moan and complain you felt her words were leading well you free feel that way and take exception but manners never hurt personally disagree and feel her generalizations were fine have the right think and say that too ali under compunction change single word now while you free disagree with every word she wrote tear apart her character uncalled for posting this form public reprimand you tear down ali integrity and character publicly you get chastised publicly return would have been hard say ali please bit more specific your description the way read indicates you stating view also and that simply not true really like see disclaimer noting that you don mean the entire internet the entire group attached despite your intent list names the bottom thanks cordially always calling her moron and asshole just reduces the weight your words and the opinions their author the eyes myself and possibly others and ali nice see someone standing for something even not something personally advocate valerie hammerl john would lift pat over the boards grab hammerl acsu buffalo edu his hand and start running around the outside pwpz ubvms buffalo edu faster and faster wanted learn how get that feeling and the only way was learn how skate lafontaine
sci.crypt	why the clipper algorithm secret article apr fsl noaa gov bear kestrel fsl noaa gov bear giles writes article pstr panix com dfl panix com danny bedlam writes the algorithm classified because military contract similar government equivalent military has been let for this proprietary design that the feds say that nsa developed there patent that patent publicly available betting that that too classified unless there has been major change the law there such beast classified patent patents exist encourage communications and develop the state the art yes there the patent can classified secret recently saw patent from dealing with nuclear weapons technology that was only declassified the last couple years there course the problem enforcing the patent the same thing applies civilian development you can patent something and declare trade secret however you can and should mark all software including proprietary code unpublished copyright that ever does get exposed you still have some legal protection this absolutely right alec chambers
sci.crypt	freely distributable public key cryptography code where moose indiana edu marc vanheyningen mvanheyn indiana edu writes pgp not available the archive site rsa com were would highly amusing since rsa com actually public key partners but the same entity the organization holding the patents which they claim are violated you actually make use sell pgp believe those patents also apply canada but not patent lawyer anything sorry about double posting but forgot something make use sell this context have non standard meanings make means making encrypted message use may mean using pgp using encrypted message sell would probably mean selling encrypted message the message created patented process incorporated pgp which infringes arthur rubin rubin dsg dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet cts com personal opinions are own and not represent those employer
sci.crypt	key registering bodies naglec netcom com nagle netcom com john nagle writes since the law requires that wiretaps requested the executive branch and approved the judicial branch seems clear that one the key registering bodies should under the control the judicial branch suggest the supreme court regionally the courts appeal more specifically the offices their clerks now that makes sense but the other half must non government escrow still like eff but admin their security has not been tested arthur rubin rubin dsg dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet cts com personal opinions are own and not represent those employer
sci.crypt	greek comint installation was the secret source that announcement from article apr cathy ijs borut lavrencic ijs article gradyc unp netcom com grady netcom com writes the most popular cipher systems captured soviet spies was the one time pad even with the necessity keeping incriminating evidence about known the only proven unbreakable system soviet paranoia right and what you think the nsa does with its wullenwebers and huge rhombics pointed embassy row and their sites near satellite uplink and downlink sites duh one case slovenian paranoia once upon time tried walk over the famous marathon field not far away from athens could not that mostly becouse the field now huge antenna farm probably greek comint installation would you agree are you sure that the field the area you found the antenna farm the tomb ymvos marathon which herodotus specifies near the fighting area area open the public you must referring the army base nea makri was built the the same manner bases all over the world germany spain philippines turkey etc were built think was telecommunications hub over the recent years forces have withdrawn from the base and removed all military equipment the area currently under the control the greek navy until the all interested parties local goverment central goverment political parties agree what should done with the land park recreation area real estate this has nothing with cryptography security and the eff have redirected followups soc culture greek diomidis diomidis spinellis internet dds doc uucp uknet icdoc dds department computing imperial college london include dev tty
sci.crypt	once tapped your code good any more visicom com makey visicom com jeff makey writes article hxv demon graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes completely baffled why dorothy denning has chosen throw away her academic respectability like this she hasn dorothy denning has spent many years earning the professional respect her colleagues and something won this manner not easily lost her support the clipper matter how unpopular that position may serves far more enhance the clipper respectability than diminish her own wouldn think asking people trust secret algorithm seems unsound arthur rubin rubin dsg dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet cts com personal opinions are own and not represent those employer
sci.crypt	freely distributable public key cryptography code where moose indiana edu marc vanheyningen mvanheyn indiana edu writes pgp not available the archive site rsa com were would highly amusing since rsa com actually public key partners but the same entity the organization holding the patents which they claim are violated you actually make use sell pgp believe those patents also apply canada but not patent lawyer anything the patents don apply canada think the free trade agreement may provide for recognition new patents but not old ones arthur rubin rubin dsg dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet cts com personal opinions are own and not represent those employer
sci.crypt	key registering bodies since the law requires that wiretaps requested the executive branch and approved the judicial branch seems clear that one the key registering bodies should under the control the judicial branch suggest the supreme court regionally the courts appeal more specifically the offices their clerks courts already operate substantial record keeping operations some these records are confidential the concept court holding information confidence accordance with law has longstanding legal precedents the judiciary more immune pressure from the executive branch than any executive branch agency contractor can judicial control keys appropriate for the other half the key suggest unit congress the general accounting office the gao congress staff unit for keeping tabs the executive branch and has excellent reputation controlled strictly congress the executive branch has authority over with keys split between the legislative and judicial branches might have chance this system working honestly course way can found keep the keys from being siphoned off before they reach the repositories this should not construed endorsement the whole clipper concept but have have splitting control across all three branches government might make work john nagle
sci.crypt	hidden markov modeling the article last now you can talk your computer the may issue fortune magazine was mentioned that phoneme prediction used hidden markov modeling this was the statistical method that markov developed predict letter sequences pushkin novel eugene onegin was then said that this technique worked well that the nsa used crack codes does anyone have any references for hmm and how the nsa used this just extension the letter frequency tables that are all using anyway joe pjhong clio rad sunysb edu
sci.crypt	how detect use illegal cipher could someone repost send via email the original posting the clipper chip press release thanks andrew kriger hampshire college agk neural hampshire edu andrew kriger three may keep secret hampshire college two them are dead agk neural hampshire edu benjamin franklin
sci.crypt	once tapped your code good any more lawrence foard lfoard hopper virginia edu wrote article apr aukuni pgut aukuni peter gutmann writes article deleted just doing quick reality check here this for real did someone invent provoke reaction from people sounds more like the sort thing you have heard suitably rephrased from the leader certain german political party the sounds like joke but then the war drugs has always been joke remember seeing several months ago and was marked joke funny how things circulate kenneth beal kbeal amber ssd csd harris com use often does pavlov ring bell nlp tapes learn keep moving street person responsibility indigo girls better yourself fnord one man gathers what another man spills dead opinions are mine your religion batf approved pro con progress
sci.crypt	sorry folks read this article apr ucsu colorado edu andersom spot colorado edu marc anderson writes article apr ucsu colorado edu andersom spot colorado edu marc anderson writes the date have for this note clinton statements about encryption the paragraph guess this statement doesen contradict what you said though cut here washington upi the war drugs about get fresh start president clinton told delegates the national federation police commisioners convention washington the first speech the drug issue since his innaugural clinton said that his planned escalation the drug war would make everything far seem half hearted that for all practical just found out from source that this article was joke heh heh seemed pretty damn convincing from the start just didn notice the smiley the end the article and there were few other hints which should caught well isn this just hoot all read this group bunch ppl fearing the misuses information the big bad evil govt this just happens case ordinary joe netter who decided that would create and distribute some misinformation ppl buy into posts like this know because forwarded copy the post office mate who turned around and was although won admit sorry joe ready get fight about please going hold our govt which admittedly has had and still has its problems high standards then mustn follow these too electronic freedoms only far anyway guess this joke did turn out resemble clinton true feelings least some extent sorry about that marc andersom spot colorado edu hey willing forgive after course office mate takes his extra anti paranoia pills doug mckee mckee buffalo edu
sci.crypt	the escrow database article strnlghtc inf netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes after the waco massacre and the big brother wiretap chip any tactic fair this pernicious nonsense what way david our government totally out control whether you realize not know you find painful think your old buddy uncle sam evil but true other democracies have fallen before ours its way and knee jerk sheep that instinctively trust government are helping slide power corrupts david why that hard understand
sci.crypt	overreacting was once tapped your code good any more article rvb access digex net steve access digex com steve brinich writes somebody asked what was wrong about overreacting cases such this the reason very simple how many people you want die riot new civil war not which precisely why the government must cut off the knees when pulls stunts like this lest the situation worsen the point where extreme measures are required fine then cut them off with pen and paper and not the sword jerry han crc doc div behavioural research jhan debra dgbt doc these are opinions and opinions only proud and frozen member the mighty warriors band memories those left behind still ringing ears genesis
sci.crypt	new encryption psionic wam umd edu whose parenthesized name either unfortunate coincidence casts serious doubt his bona fides posts message which seems willing take the word private firm about which knows little that their new encryption algorithm secure and contains trapdoors while seemingly distrusting that the government about clipper suppose depends how paranoid one wishes but how does the writer know the firm isn for example nsa front for purposes this message how know psionic isn don suggest that but post this point out that there class speculation that has more truth value without lots hard evidence than the contrary one the way psionic had said lower case letters that the firm claims there was back door have problem with that phrasing david david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was corporate acceptance the wiretap chip article uvn austin ibm com arussell austin ibm com russell writes the company worked for previously received file that was des encryped and the person that had sent went vaction rather than wait two weeks set straight frontal attack with one key time only took two days crack the file don have any faith des taking this face value though seems quite dissonant with much else that has been published here about brute force des cracking unless russell was lucky with respect the key very interested whether the program russell used available whether used cleartext recognition algorithm the program whether had examine each decryption hand whether used known plaintext attack probably should also tell given his address what machine used desktop workstation super computer depending his answer this could appalling development calling into question both des and rsa des dunno about rsa idea any bright programmer with little idle machine time can crack single des message couple days assuming tricks that are message specific then here clipper key nsa give the chip once david david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	freely distributable public key cryptography code where numerical recipes fortran pascal has nice section encryption and decryption based the des algorithm there also source code provided think some versions this book are distributed with the source code disk the source code can also ordered from the publisher victor iseli victori xetron com
sci.crypt	the escrow database article apr news eng convex com gardner convex com steve gardner writes article strnlghtc inf netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes after the waco massacre and the big brother wiretap chip any tactic fair this pernicious nonsense what way david our government totally out control whether you realize not know you find painful think your old buddy uncle sam evil but true other democracies have fallen before ours its way and knee jerk sheep that instinctively trust government are helping slide power corrupts david why that hard understand that wasn point point that your implied position about the waco massacre assertion cum political position according cnn poll about americans think the fbi acted properly and majority think they should have done the tear gas lot sooner large majority also believe the fbi was not all responsible for the death the victims koresh was let avoid the kind fruitless argument the sort hadn then might not have what you call the big brother chip right now proposal under discussion and not yet clear that strong crypto going banned therefore neither justifies any tactic fair thus the statement nonsense pernicious because any tactic can lead damaging others see you know from the tone your reply there nothing personal intended david david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was corporate acceptance the wiretap chip article strnlghtc wcmo netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes article uvn austin ibm com arussell austin ibm com russell writes the company worked for previously received file that was des encryped and the person that had sent went vaction rather than wait two weeks set straight frontal attack with one key time only took two days crack the file taking this face value though seems quite dissonant with much else that has been published here about brute force des cracking unless russell was lucky with respect the key very interested whether the program russell used available whether used cleartext recognition algorithm the program whether had examine each decryption hand whether used known plaintext attack this has dictionary attack other attack makes sense this means that whoever encrypted the file just typed some password which was single dictionary word and then russell tried all the words the dictionary this isn too implausible especially was smart and clipped the first plaintext block off the ciphertext the first block doesn decrypt then obviously the others won either assuming one attempt second takes seven hours try all the words usr dict words not real tough you want des secure you have use random keys you can just type your wife name and think aha they never guess that one daniel boyd boyd buffalo edu welcome the first church appliantology the white zone for loading and unloading only
sci.crypt	the escrow database david sternlight strnlght netcom com wrote article apr news eng convex com gardner convex com steve gardner writes cascades elided preserve our sanity that wasn point point that your implied position about the waco massacre assertion cum political position according cnn poll what you call the big brother chip right now proposal under discussion and not yet clear that strong crypto going banned just set the record straight steve gardner was not the author the bit you quoted was steve just took issue with david characterization words pernicious nonsense won further comment own views folks either support they don and the lines question were neither central the points was making original post nor the important debate here sci crypt and elsewhere tim may who continues hold the same views but doesn feel like debating politics timothy may crypto anarchy encryption digital money tcmay netcom com anonymous networks digital pseudonyms zero knowledge reputations information markets aptos black markets collapse governments higher power public key pgp and mailsafe available
sci.crypt	new encryption article strnlghtc erw netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes psionic wam umd edu whose parenthesized name either unfortunate coincidence casts serious doubt his bona fides posts message which seems willing take the word private firm about which knows little that their new encryption algorithm secure and contains trapdoors while seemingly distrusting that the government about clipper will someone please post the david sternlight faq alt privacy clipper before someone unfamiliar with him takes him seriously and starts yet another flame fest dan
sci.crypt	have seen the lobby and think that most can afford stamp and envelope and the cost printing out letter some kind soul out there would write letter and upload the net everyone could capture print out and snail mail out their local congressional critter btw working one nate hate quotations this message brought you tell what you know nate sammons and the number ralph waldo emerson longs lance colostate edu
sci.crypt	could someone mail the text from the white house clipper announcement thanks bunch nate hate quotations this message brought you tell what you know nate sammons and the number ralph waldo emerson longs lance colostate edu
sci.crypt	new encryption article apr magic mcc com croley magic mcc com david croley wrote would seem that the one fact that the government has overlooked this whole fiasco the economic standpoint others have mentioned the most difficulty the clipper chip faces economic one let face the average consumer doesn care know that the clipper bad idea there perceived need for cellular encryption then the companies will provide one most likely standard will emerge but the clipper too expensive and chip way too much then they will develope their own buy cheaper one this interesting point very coarse rule thumb you can figure that the final price product times the cost goods the exact multiplier depends largely economies scale products that sell tens millions units year will the low end those that sell thousands units year will the high end suspect cellular phones are the middle this implies that adding chip would increase the cost the phone approx about don think you get lot consumer support for this tony usual disclaimer
sci.crypt	clipper considered harmful article bontchev fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg writes because the feds will still able decrypt the conversations true they blame the wrong guys but nevertheless one cannot say something like the drugs arrive tommorrow the ship terminus when the feds are listening even they cannot identify who the speaker not question just who holding the phone question what circuit wiretap the first place two drug dealers are both using stolen cellular phones the fbi doesn know which lines tap unless course they tapping all phones maybe all cellular phones they haven tapped the connection least one end the connection then they don know what key request disclaimer all opinions expressed are own course carl ellison cme stratus com stratus computer inc bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough fax
sci.crypt	freely distributable public key cryptography code where victor iseli victori xetron com wrote numerical recipes fortran pascal has nice section encryption and decryption based the des algorithm there also source code provided think some versions this book are distributed with the source code disk the source code can also ordered from the publisher victor iseli victori xetron com yes benchmarked the des implementation the recipes book about orders magnitude slower than the outerbridge karn gillogly implementation may instructional but isn very fast grady netcom com
sci.crypt	once tapped your code good any more article vmf mbt murdoch acc virginia edu lfoard hopper virginia edu lawrence foard writes article apr aukuni pgut aukuni peter gutmann writes article deleted just doing quick reality check here this for real did someone invent provoke reaction from people sounds more like the sort thing you have heard suitably rephrased from the leader certain german political party the sounds like joke but then the war drugs has always been joke seeking permission repost the actual note but someone another mailing list checked the archives nexis upi and all major newspapers and found mention that article
sci.crypt	clipper will corrupt cops was proposal from police point view article apr news clarkson edu tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe writes clipper will make criminals out cops want this our police forces the war some drugs has already turned alot police into criminals this yet another nail the constitution coffin smg
sci.crypt	new encryption from denning guvax acc georgetown edu the clipper chip technical summary dorothy denning revised april the chips are programmed mykotronx inc which calls them the myk the silicon supplied vlsi technology inc all clipper chips are programmed inside scif secure compartmented information facility which essentially vault the scif contains laptop computer and equipment program the chips about chips are programmed during single session the scif located mykotronx acknowledgment and distribution notice this article based information provided nsa nist fbi and mykotronx permission distribute this document granted who mykotronx inc would nice know that they were not front company used intelligence other agency the government trusting the fox guard the chickens and all that seems suspicious when the rest the sources are foxes while are the chip design should examined and verified against silicon insure trap doors hidden protocols exist silicon regardless the security level the encryption algorithm would shame some three letter agency had the ability interrogate chip when all know that someone rang and when attempted off hook the line went dead could even worse the chip were intended connect directly modem the design examination should done the gate level does anyone have good idea how tell there piggyback design silicon the model would extra logic sharing pins with the advertised function tip offs would circuitry that would ignore incoming data formats sequence not right can think only two ways output pin could used and its possible that might noticed but could edited from the netlist think the silicon itself needs investigated imagine design done two layer metalization yet finding third layer under the microscope the government asking for lot blind trust the encryption algorithm operating protocols the agency having physical control the devices the silicon implementation feel like keeping one hand wallet
sci.crypt	have seen the lobby and article apr yuma acns colostate edu lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons writes think that most can afford stamp and envelope and the cost printing out letter some kind soul out there would write letter and upload the net everyone could capture print out and snail mail out their local congressional critter btw working one send something rush linbaugh about clinton taking away our right privacy and how the govt standard takes off only people with lots money drug dealers will able justify des stuff will slam clinton for this the air rob
sci.crypt	estimating wiretap costs benefits would wiretap chip cost effective robin hanson draft april summary compared average monthly phone bill sixty dollars wiretaps are only worth two cents month police the proposed wiretap chip must raise phone costs less than one part three thousand cost effective background until now phones have happened allow the existence wiretaps detectors which could pick conversations phone line and over time law enforcement agencies have come rely this capability aid criminal investigations however powerful new encryption technologies threaten this status quo making possible truly private communication small chip each phone could soon make literally impossible overhear conversation without physical microphones either end order preserve the ability law enforcement agencies tap phone conversations the government announced april that had developed and begun manufacturing special wiretap chip placed future phones instead the total privacy chips which have been under private development the same day announced would use these chips all its secure telephone products each chip would created under government supervision when would given fixed indentifier and encryption key periodically during each conversation the chip would broadcast its identifier and other info special law enforcement block law enforcement officers with court order could then obtain the key corresponding the indentifier from special trust agencies and could thereby listen any future previously recorded conversations that phone date most concerns voiced about this plan have been about its security the government won disclose the encryption algorithm and many suspect the government will not limit its access the way has claimed the track record previous governments does not inspire confidence this point however this paper will neglect these concerns and ask instead whether this new wiretap chip cost effective tool for police investigation that which cheaper way for society investigate crime force phone communications support wiretaps give police agencies more money investigate crimes other ways put another way would police agencies willing pay for each wiretap they had pay their share the full social cost forcing phones support wiretaps start answer this question might compare the current benefits wiretaps provide law enforcement agencies with projected costs implementing the new wiretap chip plan and since current benefits are easier estimate begin there wiretap benefits the latest year for which wiretap statistics are available that year wiretap installations were requested and requests were denied this figure does not include wiretaps obtained with the consent party the conversation arrests resulted from wiretaps started the same year arrests came from wiretaps previous years and arrests led convictions the wiretaps were for phones pagers email etc were regarding drug offenses and were requested federal authorities each wiretap installation heard average calls them incriminating among people and cost average extrapolating from the installations reporting costs mostly for labor thus total about million was spent wiretaps obtain about arrests per arrest thus these arrests are least four times more expensive than the per arrest figure one gets dividing the billion spent all police nationally the total million non traffic arrests thus the million per year spent phone taps only one thousanth the total police expenditures and divide this the million phone access lines the country get about cents spent per year per phone line about two cents month general deter given class criminals through combination perceived probability being caught and convicted and some expected punishment level convicted the social value having wiretaps more than the amount that would have pay get the same criminal deterrence through other means unable wiretap particular suspect phone police might instead use hidden microphones investigate that suspect other ways police might focus suspects more easily investigated without wiretaps might raise the fine prison time for certain types crime generously assume that these substitutes for wiretaps would average twice expensive wiretaps then the annual social benefit phone wiretaps about equal the current spending level two cents month per phone line wiretap costs let for the moment optimistically assume that the government encryption scheme secure whatever private enterprise would have offered instead protecting our conversations from the spying ears neighbors corporations and governments both foreign and domestic even the need support wiretaps would add many additional costs build and maintain our communication system extra law enforcement blocks would added phone transmissions increasing traffic some unknown percentage special process must used add encryption keys chips while securely distributing these keys special agencies which must funded and monitored the chips themselves are designed military contractor whose design remain secret and are manufactured through special process that the chip becomes nearly impossible take apart chips are now offered the relatively high price peice lots private encryption systems not supporting wiretaps would require none these extra costs perhaps most important government degree would least partially replace private marketplace evolution standards for how voice represented encrypted and exchanged our future phones widely believed that governments are less efficient than private enterprise procuring products and standards though they may perhaps perform useful brokering role when choose between competing private standards how much less efficient matter debate some say they pay twice much while others might say only more currently total billion spent operating expenses phone companies which comes out about per month per access line compare this the wiretap value two cents per month see that wiretaps raise average operating costs even much one part then wiretaps are not cost effective and this doesn even include extra costs phone owners pay because their encryption chips are more expensive course most phones wouldn have encryption chips for while but the wiretap benefit per phone still the same this argument still applies conclusion given this dramatic difference between the total cost running the phone system and the value wiretaps can justify only the slightest modification the phone system accommodate wiretaps when the only modification required was allow investigators attach clips phone wires wiretap support may have been reasonable but when consider substantial modification the burden proof clearly those proposing such modification show that the costs would really less than the benefits consensus cannot obtain this cost benefit estimate compromise might tax phones which not support wiretaps rate say five cents per month tax payable police agencies nationwide compensate them for their loss wiretap abilities the invisible weapon oxford press isbn report applications for orders authorizing approving the interception wire oral electronic communications administrative office courts washington statistical abstracts dorothy denning the clipper chip technical summary distributed sci crypt newsgroup april robin hanson hanson ptolemy arc nasa gov nasa ames research center moffett field male terrace fremont
sci.crypt	need the clipper for cheap security pdc dcs paul crowley writes quoting pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger article apr shearson com whats the difference between bis modem and bis modem how fast the fastest modems how far can voice compressed seen various assertions about this but anyone with the straightforward bits per second figures will friend forever how about half friend the motorola codex preliminary fast modem which you can right now does kbps raw over standard phone lines kbps what usually claimed for the final fast but you can out and buy that right now the standard isn done yet again voice can compressed quite well down bps depending how good you want but that requires dsp special asic real time think think the little engine that philosophized
sci.crypt	new encryption article apr zip eecs umich edu dmuntz quip eecs umich edu dan muntz writes article strnlghtc erw netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes psionic wam umd edu whose parenthesized name either unfortunate coincidence casts serious doubt his bona fides posts message which seems willing take the word private firm about which knows little that their new encryption algorithm secure and contains trapdoors while seemingly distrusting that the government about clipper will someone please post the david sternlight faq alt privacy clipper before someone unfamiliar with him takes him seriously and starts yet another flame fest dan hello the david sternlight keeper the faq unfortuantely cannot find the present time from the original faq question does anyone take david sternlight serious fact one takes david sternlight serious they review his opinions and most cases immediately discard them jerk them over alt fan david sternlight which actually should alt flame david sternlight photograph david sternlight for the curious david sternlight net police proud dick the internet david police question why does david continue relate mis statements regarding encryption and other topics fact david sternlight has chemical imbalance the right side his brain martin hannigan twisted pair consulting mac ibm mainframe unix
sci.crypt	once tapped your code good any more article rubin dsg dse beckman com rubin dsg dse beckman com arthur rubin writes wouldn think asking people trust secret algorithm seems unsound maybe but quite common there are millions macintosh users who have idea what apple patented roms many have modems connected how you know all your business secrets aren being stolen answer because you trust apple because any such attempt however sophicsticated came out would destroy apple credibility forever the clipper case representative body experts going allowed audit and have assurances maybe even from the president that other than the escrowed keys there are back doors while some may not have confidence that not among them lot more assurance than get for many things routinely trust everyday life david david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	screw the people crypto for hard core hackers spooks only doug holland claims tom clancy has provided the recipe for nuclear bombs clancy himself says has omitted certain crucial steps further how know clancy knows rather than repeating what read been told the unclassified domain david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	political point attack clipper infrastructure article apr news clarkson edu tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe writes from these figures estimate the number clipper tap requests the fbi expecting publish this figure compare per capita basis with the amount tapping now known suspected the attorney general publishes the number court ordered taps each year isn enough around thousand for the average non crook non spy worry about fact considering any reasonable guess about the number big time crooks and spies around may not enough even for most crooks and spies worry about there reason believe that will with clipper since the number taps now includes many targets too stupid use encryption based the playbacks heard court cases david david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	would clipper make good cover for other encryption method article strnlghtc netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes article apr eff org kadie eff org carl kadie writes don just think replacements for clipper also think front ends this only makes sense the government prohibits alternative non escrowed encryption schemes otherwise why not just use the front end without clipper because everyone but you expects that making alternative methods encryption illegal the next step otherwise the cripple chip utterly worthless should obvious that the cripple chip aimed spying ordinary citizens that other forms encryption will soon illegal smg
sci.crypt	can des code shipped canada article apr fripp cadre com cadre com writes someone canada asked send him some public domain des file encryption code have legal for send believe illegal send any cryptographic code out the country without export license others will correct this inaccurate dunno you get one for the particular code you have the only way find out apply for license note that you need distinguish between what legal send canada you have such license and what legal send you don david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	wiretapping reality today some the messages here seem reflect the view that the government listening everything and one will have hide one clipper messages somehow non escrowed crypto goes away little perspective might order the number court ordered wire taps pretty low law enforcement has present pretty good evidence get even that limited number authorizations thus the overwhelming majority conversations are neither tapped nor recorded the government and for that happen they have have pretty good reason with evidence use this sparingly highest priority pretty good reasons though the system may imperfect long way from the horror stories some here seem believe anticipate david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	fear uncertainty doubt article koj access digex net steve access digex com steve brinich writes suspect that the decisive element the political battle will the fud fear uncertainty doubt factor the people who would end users the cripple chip hear the whole debate only vaguely the government says solid other people the field say swiss cheese the balance doubt could shift against the feds any attempt limit other forms encryption could then presented the government covering its own butt protecting its poor product from superior competition comments since you asked the above bit inaccurate more accurate that the government says its solid other people the field who might able find out haven yet done their review the chip design and there been lot wild speculation and guesswork from those with little information that might swiss cheese david david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	have seen the lobby and hin article apr yuma acns colostate edu lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons writes think that most can afford stamp and envelope and the cost printing out letter some kind soul out there would write letter and upload the net everyone could capture print out and snail mail out their local congressional critter btw working one far more effective than mass mailing standard letter this taken usually represent one pressure group set individual letters perhaps nathaniel sammons someone else would like prepare set talking points from which individuals could compose their own letters david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	political point attack clipper infrastructure strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes the attorney general publishes the number court ordered taps each year believe you are mistaken don believe the publishes the number state wiretaps carl carl kadie not represent any organization this just kadie uiuc edu
sci.crypt	overreacting was once tapped your code good any more jhan debra dgbt doc jerry han writes somebody asked what was wrong about overreacting cases such this that was probably meant only that nobody has overreacted yet seemed that jerry was suggesting that people are currently overreacting and vehemently disagree see lot talk but not much action see now that misunderstood jerry position the reason very simple how many people you want die riot new civil war everybody jumping and down and screaming about and worried that people are going reach for their hammers and rifles before their pens and paper not this bunch they just bitch the net for while and then back lurking can people work within the system before trying break examine your history books and find out how many armed revolutions led democratic democratic style governments think you only find one over five thousand years written history actually not quite that bad but close look collectively have the power throw the bums out but don use clearly don need burning things down but clearly need throw least some the bums out unfortunately the bums have learned target only small groups people single time the masses won react and throw them out eventually the masses will react unless the bums cease their relentless encroachment liberty and despoilment the economy the sooner happens the less the damages will don want live war zone either want see the bums thrown out before they some real damage lyle transarc grant street the gulf tower pittsburgh
sci.crypt	political point attack clipper infrastructure article wmu mqj uiuc edu kadie uiuc edu carl kadie writes strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes the attorney general publishes the number court ordered taps each year believe you are mistaken don believe the publishes the number state wiretaps carl carl kadie not represent any organization this just kadie uiuc edu hmmm now could have keys kept escrow with one the groups keeping key being the government then the states would need federal permission run wiretap interesting possibility neil
sci.crypt	clipper considered harmful brad optilink com brad yearwood writes clipper comes cellular phones along with legal proscriptions against using other cipher systems these phones new and potentially dangerous class crime created criminals who very badly want inscrutable tactical communications specifically the terrorists and drug dealers who proponents key escrow cite threats will highly motivated steal the cipher phone legitimate user and kill this person hold them hostage discovery compromise the device will delayed you obviously haven read the information about the system the chips put out serial number infomation into the cypher stream allow themselves identified the system does not rely registering people owning particular phone units against the proposal but lets accurate our objections perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer monde lui meme
sci.crypt	freely distributable public key cryptography code where article gradyc wgrz cvc netcom com grady netcom com wrote victor iseli victori xetron com wrote numerical recipes fortran pascal has nice section encryption and decryption based the des algorithm there also source code provided think some versions this book are distributed with the source code disk the source code can also ordered from the publisher victor iseli victori xetron com yes benchmarked the des implementation the recipes book about orders magnitude slower than the outerbridge karn gillogly implementation may instructional but isn very fast has also apparently been excised from the second edition lefty lefty apple com
sci.crypt	celp vocoders gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes absolutely just meant that secure dedicated crypto device has ever been given approval guerrilla underground devices should well possible with today high speed modems not that can think many bis modems that are approved either mind you just the overpriced couriers can someone tell hardware compression not needed run digital speech down think heard not lets say bit samples would raw data the corresponding sampling rate usable not how fancy does the compression need said that celp vocoders can run the highest speed with some room spare they turn kbit bit samples samples sec into baud however dsp hairy and have yet see actual proof this the form implementation have heard fairly reliable rumors the effect that famous internetworking guru has celp implementation that runs sparcstation with some room spare but have not succeeded thus far getting hands copy the guru question has reputation for not releasing code without having beaten for very very long time first dsp experts are heavily encouraged try their own hand this problem perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer monde lui meme
sci.crypt	key escrow enough from denning guvax acc georgetown edu revised april the chips are programmed mykotronx inc which calls them the myk the silicon supplied vlsi technology inc all clipper chips are programmed inside scif secure compartmented information facility which essentially vault the scif contains laptop computer and equipment program the chips about chips are programmed during single session the scif located mykotronx acknowledgment and distribution notice this article based information provided nsa nist fbi and mykotronx permission distribute this document granted who mykotronx inc would nice know that they are not front company used intelligence other agency the government while are the chip design should examined and verified against silicon insure trap doors hidden protocols exist silicon regardless the security level the encryption algorithm there proof that the chip won squeel and role over for someone with the proper knowledge interrogate via the communications link the design examination should done the gate level also how does one verify that what you are looking reflected tapeout masks the silicon should examined well the design hand clean room publicly defined clipper chip can merged with another design later changed between completion and mask out there little proof that what you are told the chip all that the chip put the verified masks escrow and use them for chip production use third escrow party for programming the chips the government asking for lot blind trust the encryption algorithm operating protocols the agency having physical control the devices the silicon implementation the government trustworthy why escrow anything
sci.crypt	screw the people crypto for hard core hackers spooks only amanda intercon com amanda walker writes need alternative nsa bugged telephones but talking inexpensive telephones here including hand sized cellulars that need strong crypto real privacy start company and build them this still mostly capitalist economy qualcomm had spare cycles the dsps for their new cdma digital cellular phones they wanted put strong crypto into them since they had the capacity the government decided discourage them really none this stuff especially hard all you need for true private phone isdn codec vocoder either chip software encryptor chip fine but software more than fast enough bis modem module and maybe microcontroller run the whole thing its easy its cheap and any normal company trying put one out will likely get visit from the boys the dark suits from washington just like qualcomm did suspect that companies like cylink are tolerated because their products are too expensive however law yet stops one from building really private phones spite the hints the administration has made when discussing the new crime bill and connection with the clipper skipjack big brother chip someone out there will build unit all this better yet prehaps someone will produce package that turns any box with sound card into secure phone perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer monde lui meme
sci.crypt	transparent cyphertext aej cmuvm bitnet wrote light recent events may soon become very good idea include the ability produce transparent least non obvious cyphertext upcoming revisions this won help the nsa fba axis requires all messages undergo textual analysis and reduction canonical form eliminate concealed messages after reading several national computer security center documents convinced that they are already using this filter doubleplusgoodnot grady netcom com
sci.crypt	off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was corporate acceptance the wiretap chip article strnlghtc wcmo netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes article uvn austin ibm com arussell austin ibm com russell writes the company worked for previously received file that was des encryped and the person that had sent went vaction rather than wait two weeks set straight frontal attack with one key time only took two days crack the file don have any faith des taking this face value though seems quite dissonant with much else that has been published here about brute force des cracking unless russell was lucky with respect the key very interested whether the program russell used available whether used cleartext recognition algorithm the program whether had examine each decryption hand whether used known plaintext attack given that certain archival methods have certain key cleartext file used programatic dictionary attack used the des library provided with the system that was using what keep anyone from being lucky with key probably should also tell given his address what machine used desktop workstation super computer previous employment has nothing with current address other than the fact that the fastest machine the office was ibm risc system model with meg memory not super computer depending his answer this could appalling development calling into question both des and rsa des dunno about rsa idea really think this more statement the limitations placed the key the interface ascii char padding and most programs don bother clear off the archival front and backend any bright programmer with little idle machine time can crack single des message couple days assuming tricks that are message specific then here clipper key nsa give the chip once yes any moderatly bright programmer with little idle machine time can crack most todays real world encryption sure that you could select key and prepare the data inorder that the decryption will become worst case but that not the real world and sure that how any agency would start attack message you pointed out there are some very good recognition algorithms availible just not familiar with them russell dept oltp section pals group ausvm email arussell austin ibm com phone tieline these are views anyone else they would look silly free the berkeley
sci.crypt	overreacting was once tapped your code good any more article apr rick dgbt doc jhan debra dgbt doc jerry han writes this giant bally over this clipper chip noticed rather disturbing trend some the mail and posts tossing back and forth too tendency the part some people hide their head the sand the reason very simple how many people you want die riot new civil war how many people you want jailed for their convictions for their insistence real privacy why sit quietly while the preconditions for real civil war are put place short sighted government everybody jumping and down and screaming about and worried that people are going reach for their hammers and rifles before their pens and paper the terminal mightier than the pen can people work within the system before trying break examine your history books and find out how many armed revolutions led democratic democratic style governments think you only find one over five thousand years written history really guess you mean the revolution how about england india mexico france holland that not very good odds you are misinformed but this whole issue off the topic somebody once said something like armed violence meant only used response armed attack not meant used agression this the difference between self defence and murder when the cops kick your door for using pgp tell them that all doing here exercising our called rapidly narrowing right free speech probably overreacting but what read scared lot don want children growing war zone perhaps you should talk the government about that are you disciple david the cops are our friends sternlight the implied threat the illegalization private crypto the not subtle subtext the clipper announcement what worries don want children growing police state rens disclaimer all opinions herein are mine and mine alone and not necessarily represent those any organization with which may affiliated laurens troost unix systems work rens imsi com investment management svcs inc play rens century com east street floor phone new york new york fax ims unlikely share any the above opinions
sci.crypt	overreacting was once tapped your code good any more intent cut the government off the knees with the pen and keyboard true the lawyer and the lawbook only far but agree that best use those resources the maximum extent before seriously contemplating anything more disruptive
sci.crypt	once tapped your code good any more maybe but quite common there are millions macintosh users who have idea what apple patented roms many have modems connected how you know all your business secrets aren being stolen answer because you trust apple because any such attempt however sophicsticated came out would destroy apple credibility forever the reason could theoretically trust apple though person myself that apple has worry about their customers deserting them they screw badly enough the government doesn have any such worry can change the rules force get the outcome wants this the ultimate reason why private enterprise usually more efficient than government agencies
sci.crypt	secret algorithm clipper chip and crypto key escrow article strnlghtc pucl netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes article apr yuma acns colostate edu holland colostate edu douglas craig holland writes let ask you this would you trust richard nixon with your crypto keys wouldn take you mean president nixon not private citizen nixon sure nothing doing would the slightest interest president nixon sternlight your naivete and historical ignorance appalling history lesson detailing deleted mike schmelzer mjs genetics wisc edu finger for pgp people didn riot the minute they saw that film they waited justice which never came ice
sci.crypt	screw the people crypto for hard core hackers spooks only pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger writes really none this stuff especially hard all you need for true private phone isdn codec vocoder either chip software encryptor chip fine but software more than fast enough bis modem module and maybe microcontroller run the whole thing its easy its cheap and any normal company trying put one out will likely get visit from the boys the dark suits from washington just like qualcomm did have the feds shut down the people making sound blaster what about apple and next apple next sun and others make systems that can handle quality audio and out and can perform arbitrary transformation the process transmitting across network modem perhaps there market for portable vocoder not crypto device simply voice converter make capable recording speech and playing back simultaneously has applications for multimedia computing for the handicapped internet talk radio irc etc etc etc wouldn cryptographic device all but suppose someone could have hooked laptop with bis modem and some crypto software market the thing with api for text speech using simple phonemes and the ability use speech samples and course publish the interface other folks could write any applications they wanted talk the thing mjr
sci.crypt	thoughts and questions just joined this group recently and really not know much about cryptography but couple things came mind while reading through the posts the clipper chip going exported not how will people communicate with other countries will they have that crypt mode will other encryption techniques legal assuming the government cracks down using others when going overseas but not within the states read about authentication systems that use electronic security card that looks like calculator create encrypted pin based the time date the host system has the algorithm built into well that can authenticate user there some form encryption technology that would create keys that are only valid certain instant time the systems would then allow window time around this instant where the key would work realize that this technique would increase the amount information needing stored because you would need entire algorithms rather than just keys but for smaller scale things might work could some similar method used make the two bit keys that are issued police fbi etc tap phone only usable for one week for instance further surveilance was needed they would have back the escrow service get another key this would make useless for local police database keys they have used assume this not possible because the receiving phone would need able decypher the message but any thoughts the subject thanks tauren mills tauren mills tauren rigel pdx edu
sci.crypt	ideas clipper jim gillogly jim mycroft rand org writes article fpizbg qokyw andrew cmu edu you write suppose knew how the algorithm worked and knew the for chip but did not know then cryptanalysis might able determine from law enforcement field not knowing would might make this much harder they betting that you can this even you know even you know fact which they trying keep secret you can find grinding down the chip presumably you can find well but can this right now with des even knowing the encryption method without doing almost the whole bit search that not true with chosen plaintext attacks des keys can determined without the full search now suppose that know either legitimately not know either because involved the conversation know for party the conversation may now able determine for the other party again they betting that you can find given they claim the encryption strong trust not willing take that bet know can also defeat the law enforcement field since could make own with different then the one using knowing also allows traffic analysis performed might not know what you are saying but could know who you are saying too not sure there way shove arbitrary key and data through your chip but this part assuming unknown you can obviously shove arbitrary data through your chip for the key stated that the sesion key exchange external the chip can pick keys too now admit that someone trying compute will not have lots messages work from but since have way knowing that the key generation method does not deliberately generate weak keys for that matter that the published method fact used perhaps the will chosen from know weak keys for the system they assume that you won able find matter how many messages you have they could break they wouldn need the key escrow bing bing bing bing bing that exactly point since cant know that they not have this capability the only safe assumption that they admit that most cryptographic complaints are probably unfounded but since cant know one way the other not gonig take their word for obviously the compromise would disaster both law enforcement for whom this whole thing designed and for the people who believe that giving them security but one number and sure that alot people more then know what and some panel experts going check over for flaws then many more will know forget grinding chips bribery and blackmail work just fine not clear that the experts will told fact surprised expect something more the form the fips pub describing des that they could look the algorithm general rather than with the specific set keys chosen come thats like saying you could evaluate des without the box constants jon
sci.crypt	overreacting was once tapped your code good any more article apr rick dgbt doc jhan debra dgbt doc jerry han writes this giant bally over this clipper chip noticed rather disturbing trend some the mail and posts tossing back and forth somebody asked what was wrong about overreacting cases such this the reason very simple how many people you want die riot new civil war everybody jumping and down and screaming about and worried that people are going reach for their hammers and rifles before their pens and paper well know one person who ready kill and the victim this whole topic damnit please stop copying all this crap comp org acm please russ schnapp email netcom metaflow rschnapp rschnapp metaflow com rschnapp bix com metaflow technologies voice fax jolla california unless otw specified speaking only for myself
sci.crypt	new encryption article strnlghtc erw netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes psionic wam umd edu whose parenthesized name either unfortunate coincidence casts serious doubt his bona fides posts message which seems willing take the word private firm about which knows little that their new encryption algorithm secure and contains trapdoors while seemingly distrusting that the government about clipper have couple reasons why would more likely trust this algorithm the algorithm will made totally public once patented the keys will not escrowed course either these not true will not use this new algorithm since have never seen this new algorithm have idea how secure yet suppose depends how paranoid one wishes but how does the writer know the firm isn for example nsa front for purposes this message how know psionic isn don suggest that but post this point out that there class speculation that has more truth value without lots hard evidence than the contrary one the way psionic had said lower case letters that the firm claims there was back door have problem with that phrasing can make any judgements about the algorithm itself yet but notice that the creators this algorithm are being more open about how the thing works and willing make public showing that after bit scrutiny any weaknesses will probably revealed while don know about clipper doug holland doug holland anyone who tries take away freedom holland colostate edu speech will have pry from pgp key available mail cold dead lips
sci.crypt	off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was corporate acceptance the wiretap chip article uup news claremont edu ebrandt jarthur claremont edu eli brandt writes article apr ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes remember that they promised let committee outside experts see the cryptosystem design hope there are some silicon jocks the committee who can follow the algorithm through hardware while doubt the nsa would pull any monkey business this point they have expect that the chip will reverse engineered sooner later obvious opportunity introduce additional holes the chip isn the place pull the monkey business you the key generation either having mathematical backdoor having the program the laptop that supposedly generates the keys also save copy and and leak out somehow having the program that supposedly puts the official keys the chip actually put different key there very hard detect since the escrow agents have either trust the nsa laptop give each other the keys and they still don know the algorithm have the chip burner the factory make copies the keys whatever pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com bell labs holmdel from new jersey only work cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	need the clipper for cheap security there are chips which perform the voice compression expansion they can expensive because they exist many phones connected pbxs the pbx line cards well lot equipment which compresses voice grade circuits save the cost long distance leased satellite circuits can remember the generic term for these chips impression that this was big deal years ago but circuits have gotten cheap that isn done much now lew lew glendenning rlglende netcom com perspective worth points niels bohr somebody like that
sci.crypt	wiretapping reality today strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes some the messages here seem reflect the view that the government listening everything and one will have hide one clipper messages somehow non escrowed crypto goes away little perspective might order right people here believe the government listening everything sure you can provide answer change the assumptions something you can deal with not matter the government listening everything matter the government listening anyone they take interest say you something heinous like attend computer meeting mall the secret service decides for warrantless search and acquires your name matter any number possible wiretap abuses that cryptology makes far less likely and this chip can sabotage par for the course though predicted that you jumping favor this the reply was that you justify anything and including death camps long the government backed them and had written policy statement perhaps little extreme but not much seattle indian word meaning degrees and raining
sci.crypt	need the clipper for cheap security article uphy dcs pdc dcs paul crowley writes how fast the fastest modems fast targeted for about kbps kbps and may here soon too remember ignore compression figures which make your modem faster compressible data because voice gets compressed better than that and encryption makes further compression impossible how far can voice compressed the stu iii phones the market from motorola and forget who else give you choice and baud the and are celp and think the some earlier military vocoder stuff decent pretty artificial anything less speak spell can produce quite adequate sound there also some kbps celp around dsps have made possible all this real time for cheap old hand government crypto have trouble adjusting systems faster than baud because the voice the other end sounds good you assume the crypto hasn been turned yet pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com bell labs holmdel from new jersey only work cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	screw the people crypto for hard core hackers spooks only article strnlghtc wjag netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes doug holland claims tom clancy has provided the recipe for nuclear bombs clancy himself says has omitted certain crucial steps further how know clancy knows rather than repeating what read been told the unclassified domain tom clancy omitted these key steps try prevent groups people from building nuclear bomb however asserts that you can find these key steps any university library the main point five minutes midnight that impossible prevent the proliferation nuclear weapons since has become easy acquire the knowledge build one and fissible materials are nearly impossible control read this article better yet run your library yourself and dig some stuff constructing nuclear weapon doug holland doug holland anyone who tries take away freedom holland colostate edu speech will have pry from pgp key available mail cold dead lips
sci.crypt	screw the people crypto for hard core hackers spooks only article fdl sunb ocs edu ifarqhar laurel ocs edu ian farquhar writes article almaden ibm com ameline vnet ibm com ian ameline writes also believe that someone will reverse engineer the clipper chip and knowlege the algorithm will likely fairly widespread any back doors weaknesses would further discredit the scheme and help grow the market demand for secure alternative there are companies one canada recall which specialize analyzing chips understand process technology design rules understand the probable yield the assembly line making them and therefore the probable current cost and possible future cost curves given design shrinks statistical quality control better yields etc taiwanese japanese and especially korean semiconductor manufacturers have all korea continues reverse engineered foreign chips and produced the chip taiwan and japan have signed intellectual property treaties and now least extract the gate transitor level design before laying the chip out again the koreans still use mask level copying believe least they are under lot pressure pass laws meet international intellectual property standards all this despite lots attempts hide the designs there are lots techniques both hardware and software design for complex chip there will real intellectual effort extracting the gate design from the transistor design and the algorithm from the gate design but won take two smart guys even months working hour weeks koreans work more lew lew glendenning rlglende netcom com perspective worth points niels bohr somebody like that
sci.crypt	encryption chip availibility everybody does anyone know companies that are currently manufacturing encryption chips for sale the general public get them while you can some pointers would greatly appreciated thanks steve
sci.crypt	ideas clipper was annoyed find that this guy posted private mail response him but since believe what said defend anyway article gfpo qoq andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu jon bennett writes jim gillogly jim mycroft rand org writes private mail they betting that you can cryptanalyze get given but can this right now with des even knowing the encryption method without doing almost the whole bit search that not true with chosen plaintext attacks des keys can determined without the full search almost mean the differential cryptanalysis attack the chosen plaintext attack requires detailed analysis about chosen plaintexts drawn from total about that need run understand the situation correctly this certainly break under the meaning the act but does not constitute much less work than the brute force keysearch the rest his article assumes that can figure out the skipjack encryption algorithm choosing the correct data send through and observe the results wish him joy and choose not try that attack not defending the system and fact offended the ideas escrowed keys secret algorithm becoming facto industry standard however also object opposing for the wrong reasons since that weakens the case against said private mail not clear that the experts will told fact surprised expect something more the form the fips pub describing des that they could look the algorithm general rather than with the specific set keys chosen come thats like saying you could evaluate des without the box constants quite different the government would have percentage choosing weak key since not their advantage have anybody else know the experts could thus assume that worse than anything else during their analysis totally different situation from unknown boxes again not saying would good satisfactory for the experts just given the raw algorithm without the rest the surrounding details regarding the chip and protocols and simply that doubt that they would given all the information jim gillogly trewesday thrimidge
sci.crypt	text white house announcement and clipper chip encryption article rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes for example conversation between suspect and lawyer will longer private from big brother eavesdropping now almost years later have the right words for the problem here phone calls are virtual visits those experienced virtual reality would know from that title that phone calls need have all the properties walk the park with your friend security from casual overhearing and easy verification see anyone listening secretively designed they fail that trouble telephones were invented long time ago and people didn realize the danger the concept virtual reality back then disclaimer all opinions expressed are own course carl ellison cme stratus com stratus computer inc bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough fax
sci.crypt	need the clipper for cheap security article trgt news claremont edu ebrandt jarthur claremont edu eli brandt writes remember the announcement they described this scheme balancing the two extremes having privacy and claiming that citizens had constitutional right encryption much for clinton support the right privacy there out for him the announcement talked about strong cryptography believe specifically nor the saying that every american matter right entitled unbreakable commercial encryption product every vendor claims his product unbreakable this was sloppy wording not claiming that private citizens should have access the nsa best secret algorithms don want any nsa algorithms actually let them break pitiful amateur algorithms and rsa all want what have already the ability and right invent and use own algorithms share them with friends and sell them disclaimer all opinions expressed are own course carl ellison cme stratus com stratus computer inc bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough fax
sci.crypt	write clinton been reading the sci crypt alt privacy clipper and comp org eff talk discussions about the clipper chip and find usual that most think alike there lot repitition each these messages were sent clinton well the net instead the net might actually have some effect mcimail com white house disclaimer all opinions expressed are own course carl ellison cme stratus com stratus computer inc bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough fax
sci.crypt	organized lobbying for cryptography article jgbinn eli yale edu jgfoot minerva cis yale edu writes perhaps these encryption only types would defend the digitized porn was posted encrypted these issues are not seperable you maintain paraphrase may not agree with what you encrypting but defend your right encrypt disclaimer all opinions expressed are own course carl ellison cme stratus com stratus computer inc bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough fax
sci.crypt	encryption chips does anyone know where can get hold some secure encrypting chips devices before they are banned completely steve encryption outlawed only outlaws will have encryption
sci.crypt	new encryption algorithm ever since craig rowland posted his piece new encryption sci crypt there has been some discussion our company secured communications technologies inc and encryption algorithm nea spoke craig length and covered lot ground some the information the posting requires some clarification and would like answer some the questions raised sci crypt sct small company based silver spring maryland our two main products this time are based secure communications program called secom and general purpose encryption chip which uses the nea algorithm developed for secom secom provides encrypted secure communication link between two connected over dial telephone lines supports simultaneous directional file transfer and keyboard screen chat has its own proprietary communications protocol which tightly integrated the encryption all though packetized link the data stream appears continuous because the packet boundaries are hidden when secom was initially developed was implemented use des encryption business decision was made seek export approval for the product because was perceived that the overseas market was large one and provided good marketing opportunity soon found out that would never granted general export approval for anything using des all though the reason for this was never explicitly stated seems have something with secret government government agreements which are still effect any event the decision was made develop new and different algorithm which would take the place des this was the reason nea new encryption algorithm was born this time nea being held trade secret the preliminary work patenting has begun and the plan make public once the patent process complete all though one can make certain legal arguments for keeping ongoing secret think the case encryption algorithm necessary let people shoot over extended period time prove its worth order get export approval for secom nea was necessary through nsa and reveal them the details the program and algorithm this was done only after had finished product submit let state unequivocally that there back door the program the algorithm secured communications technologies closely held private company and nsa fbi cia nist whatever has financial interest any way whatsoever with the company any the people involved from practical business standpoint are interested selling chips and software hopefully large quantities and back door the encryption found out could destroy our credibility and our business with the encryption algorithm approved for export set out talk number potential customers for encryption products and systems were able identify several common threads functionality requirements this led the design chip with the encryption algorithm cast silicon and certain other capabilities added that the chip could fulfill the broad range requirements that identified are strongly opposed the clipper capstone chips press release today our president stephen bryen stated seems the government has unlimited source funds use push its new bugged chips the american public but not understand how the national security agency which not supposed involved domestic spying can fund the development commercial chip intended accommodate government domestic spying activities they had asked put back door nea would have told them can nsa break nea for that matter can they break des rsa idea diffy hellman pgp whatever don know and probably never will
sci.crypt	info mathematics encryption wanted just signed for this group hope not missing something faq but looking for good introduction the mathematics encryption particularly des and public key though others would interesting also probably good library could help out but thought might even easier could obtain nice article entirely electronically besides have this rather rational phobia libraries for reasons stemming from this dissertation thing hanging over head have basic knowledge mathematics number theory bit unfamiliar but had few graduate level math courses some other areas anyway not complete novice the field probably something aimed basic graduate introductory level would about right something anyway which more specific than really big prime number generated code the message someone knows good text available ftp gopher would like email one please let know probably keep reading this group but would nice you would email the same time don miss thanx lulu this message was brought you postmodern enterprises quilty philos umass edu the opinions expressed here must those employer surely you don think that believe them
sci.crypt	the secret source that announcement article vjhinn dns nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes article gradyc uamw bng netcom com grady netcom com writes you can get for buck hand must true pretty sure the nsa supposed among many other things provide high quality cryptosystems variety places don recall reading anywhere reliable that they supposed monitor phonecalls monitor usenet provide only cryptosystems they can easily crack etc etc this not say that they don they might but you don know that they and you have evidence that they for almost all values you follows therefore that for most values you your claims about the nsa border paranoia andrew andrew provide some evidence friend mine worked for electronics manufacturer with west coast office they routinely sold equipment the japanese one day the japanese started showing with discount demands that were amazingly close the cost manufacture the products this company routinely sent most the manufacturing data the field offices the japanese had simply intercepted friend the computer systems admin came with solution started sending the data out double block encrypted with des two days after this new distribution plan was implemented the president the company got visit from pair government agents they told him knock off the president gave since his company did considerable business with the federal government now the government wasn monitoring the communications how would they even know that the encryption system was installed further since encryp tion isn illegal and des certainly isn what the basis the government cease and desist demand the spooks whatever they think necessary with without the blessings the law say thanks clipper anything else the government produces for the moment double triple des probably adequate and when the line idle send random garbage just keep busy david hayes merlin lerami lerctr org
sci.crypt	overreacting was once tapped your code good any more article apr rick dgbt doc jhan debra dgbt doc jerry han writes this giant bally over this clipper chip noticed rather disturbing trend some the mail and posts tossing back and forth somebody asked what was wrong about overreacting cases such this the reason very simple how many people you want die riot new civil war everybody jumping and down and screaming about and worried that people are going reach for their hammers and rifles before their pens and paper can people work within the system before trying break circut court judge illinois once said when dealing with government that seeks continually new and more creative ways spy its citizenry one cannot discourage the move empower the common citizen with the means parry this attack personal privacy unfortunately the comment was with regard the banning radar detectors the point remains more and more see the government slowly washing away privacy even unwittingly you think will ever live soceity that issues smart cards citizens birth you think will live soceity that insists register crypto keys they can keep track what saying even there evidence guilt you think will ever live soceity that seeks meddle the affairs its citizenry without recourse any kind tired there imho compromise with administration that seeks implement these proposals under the guise enhancing privacy more than the proposals themselves read the language the press releases the obvious deception involved presenting these pieces the public and sickened revolted repulsed perhaps even this country could care less about the clipper chip the wiretap bill the smart card because they are entrapped the rhetoric the clinton administration this saddens and frightens conserveative believe not law and order conserveative but the move centralized authoratarian regime really scares mostly because know you cant far wrong underestimating the intelligence the american people tell them going keep them safe from drug dealers and terrorists and they will let you put cameras their home even the wake waco you find those who support the increasingly totalatarian moves somebody once said something like armed violence meant only used response armed attack not meant used agression this the difference between self defence and murder quite honest the way things are going call self defense let try avoid killing things there enough blood shed the world without adding couple riots civil wars etc probably overreacting but what read scared lot don want children growing war zone and dont want mine growning the eyes security camera hours day jerry han crc doc div behavioural research jhan debra dgbt doc these are opinions and opinions only proud and frozen member the mighty warriors band memories those left behind still ringing ears genesis uni uni acs edu public keys finger and request public key archives pgp public keys pgp iastate edu sovereignty the sign brutal past fight clinton wiretap chip crypto not crime ask how
sci.crypt	estimating wiretap costs benefits robin hanson hanson kronos arc nasa gov wrote would wiretap chip cost effective summary compared average monthly phone bill sixty dollars wiretaps are only worth two cents month police the proposed wiretap chip must raise phone costs less than one part three thousand cost effective robin calculation interesting and important even off order magnitude for example even hardware costs for the clipper chip phones were zero the protocol overhead transmitting the escrow field would much higher than the part thousand depends the exact details the phone call length protocol etc shorter calls get proportionately greater hit however suspect most americans will not find this line reasoning persuasive the analogies about escrowing keys one house are tim may timothy may crypto anarchy encryption digital money tcmay netcom com anonymous networks digital pseudonyms zero knowledge reputations information markets aptos black markets collapse governments higher power public key pgp and mailsafe available
sci.crypt	the clipper chip technical summary article apr guvax acc georgetown edu denning guvax acc georgetown edu writes the following document summarizes the clipper chip how used how programming the chip coupled key generation and the escrow process and how law enforcement decrypts communications interesting tell what happens were say want have something else the law enforcement wants traffic they can record then get search warrant and get the keys from just like they would the keys stout private safe etc lets say suspect that there way trivially crack this the fed level with warrant say for nsa scanning for keywords etc and the government has abused great power the past say vendor want something different independent paranoid sort understand will the result sorry without government permission cannot sell you anything secure would sorry know which side our bread buttered cannot sell except government people law enforcement and special people what your opinion would the chances sure will sell you this secure system happy also please kind tell what the plans are for private encryption say files transferred modem ftp data stored disk surely you have feel for what the administration planning for people that with your rather intimate relationship with the fbi nsa etc you must certainly have idea you are surely not going say the people are not know until too late this supposed government the people the people isn that the people are the government bosses the bosses want know what the going here you see kind nervous because the last month have seen non stop stream ideas coming out wash that least appear very strongly have common trait limit privacy freedom from govt eavesdropping and the ability defend ourselves against violent attack not good enough for common folk they arrive only time clean the mess would dead had depend you see with all that talk about national smart cards limiting encryption government approved denial means effective personal defense eight bills congress right now looks awfully lot like the whole thing able trace every activity individual from cradle grave all would take requiring that national card used all transactions and with effective data protection and with the people suitably disarmed there would not helluva lot they could about now would there all the name the war the constitu drugs and course that catch word terrorists what wrong with good old fashioned police work build case they don want have burdened leave the office seems please read the bill rights first ten amendments the constitution and tell how you can reconcile this big brother ish policy the administration always for crisis some kind isn with that bill rights the context the people who wrote reassure please that longer regarded necessary seeing apparantly the people have input this agenda the administration preferring make all the decisions secret then springing doesn sound much like the people cannot help notice that the congress people involved were not mentioned the press release find that more than little bit curious don you sure would like know who not vote for come election time yes upset feel you are part this because recall was you that was posting heavily favor very similar idea could have been the same thing was close few months ago also recall was not well received apparantly powers that really didn care were not told both from what see clipper will only useful for conversations don want the neighborhood kid listening any serious security don think would want trust bit might well use cleartext certainly corporations would rather dumb depend this for serious trade secret data especially millions depended that security given enough money one could buy any keys they wanted buy crooked judge and crooked cop given few hundred thou they wouldn hard find end with only criminals terrorists and the government with real security and the ability eavesdrop you know the first two they are serious ain going use this thing for their communications bet the government won either except perhaps order pizza tell will that prima face evidence criminal activity someone not using the government approved methods that just desire have privacy longer regarded legitimate right unconnected citizen will that grounds for fly through the door raid and confiscation all one equipment terrorist tools using civil forfeiture there will inconvenient need prove any wrongdoing the part the citizen have yet another question are going see articles all the public magazines consisting soothing text telling how great this how nice the government letting have this illusion privacy that the government going kind let sort exercise right what you want bet that correct here please answer these questions citizens the united states hava right know what our government plans let have out the goodness their hearts funny thing though with all these proposals don feel one bit safer from drug dealers terrorists common street thug beginning wonder the greater danger lies the above entities our own government gone out control assure please far haven seen much reassure and lot greatly disturb pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	fear uncertainty doubt more accurate that the government says its solid other people the field who might able find out haven yet done their review the chip design and there been lot wild speculation and guesswork from those with little information that might swiss cheese that puts the debate excellent terms for our side feds you people saying that clipper insecure don have any real information support that judgment fine show this information that would prove wrong feds that secret when comes down that looks suspiciously like some government official pasting top secret stamps over embarrasing information order save his own hide fact framing the secrecy issue that perspective more likely turn joe sixpack suspicions against the feds than the constitutional argument point urge the others the pro freedom side consider when making their case
sci.crypt	clipper considered harmful the clipper chip user key formed why the triple encrytion used just gain effective increase keyspace defeat potential keysearch why use bit keys not knowing anything about the skipjack algorithm not really possible guess whether this makes harder easier guess why are and formed they are would facinating see the skipjack algorithm look for ways attacking that require three ciphertext blocks formed that odd way where the bit constant values that are concatenated with the serial number form come from are they changed from chip chip session session even they published the times skipjack resistant known plaintext attacks when using triple encryption then there break security but why allow that kind weird format those three bit values are truly random bits then maybe used ensure that known plaintext attack skipjack exists can easily used derive and for whole production run these chips does dorothy denning read this group not someone the group forwarding questions like these her martin hellman anyone else who seen more details about the chip john kelsey
sci.crypt	key escrow enough the points raised about checking what actually the chip opposed what allegedly programmed therein raise yet another trust issue even assume that these trusted agents are really entering wide range and seeds rather than using the same one all the time reduce the key search space bits assume they are not doing picking iron filing and poking into the circuitry carefully selected points encode data they would presumably punching numbers into computer which for all they know could program the chips manner completely independent the and values they are feeding into the system
sci.crypt	screw the people crypto for hard core hackers spooks only article apr lehman com pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger writes qualcomm had spare cycles the dsps for their new cdma digital cellular phones they wanted put strong crypto into them since they had the capacity the government decided discourage them you blowing smoke qualcomm wants sell nice lucrative overseas markets like japan and the the government told them don encryption you ever hope export this technology the reason that cdma doesn have encryption not because the men came knocking qualcomm door because qualcomm doesn think that the market for digital cellular big enough for them this just the international traffic arms regulations all over again you don believe call qualcomm and ask them don just throw out conspicracy theories least don sci crypt there are whole other newsgroups devoted this kind uninformed claptrap any normal company trying put one out will likely get visit from the boys the dark suits from washington just like qualcomm did suspect that companies like cylink are tolerated because their products are too expensive hah they not that much more expensive besides drug dealer can afford rolex and mercedes can darn well afford cylink phones cylink sells their phones because they willing make different stuff for domestic use export qualcomm isn cylink makes money that capitalism comrade someone out there will build unit all this better yet prehaps someone will produce package that turns any box with sound card into secure phone someone this and someone that you think easy why are you whining the net instead getting your butt gear and writing your name would become known and loved dozens but that would require actual effort servalan
sci.crypt	crypto papers the net recently been reading paper merkle publixhed only the net think discussing three potential replacements for des was anyting ever done with these are khufu khafre and snefru still being discussed anywhere know snefru referenced the rsa faq and think may also the sci crypt faq related topic can anyone point toward good sites find papers articles discussions cryptology think about exhausted the math sci library here which doesn seem have anything more recent than about thanks john kelsey
sci.crypt	pgp ideas for ibm systems been thinking about how difficult would make pgp available some form ebcdic machines the message authentication would ugly but think least the idea encryption could work pgp had switch tell use idea ofb mode ecb mode ofb mode errors translating ebcdic ascii ebcdic would only affect their byte not the bytes that would affected under cbc pgp set use different idea modes don recall notincing the executable but haven gone through carefully probably should john kelsey
sci.crypt	why are being censored free america this node specificaly have been scanning and trying read the articles the sci crypt area but what get surprisingly the blurb comes upon the screen file xxx has either been cancelled expired now ask you expired wouldn out the available file cache and not paranoid but the older get the greater cynicism both federal and state governments becomes the censorship this internet and less than censorship stupid the govt ridiculous the japanese have far outstripped our ciphertechnology and our government now before your very observant eyes trying force the crypto standard onto framefork where the standard now ancient relic terms modern japanese security techniques now pose the question why censor folks the net and send the warning shown above cancelled expired when would wiser not let people see the post all which article the constitution gives the right revolution things seem going cockeyed hmmm peter white president synthesis inc milwaukee wisconsin peter white mixcom com
sci.crypt	new encryption algorithm article artmel well artmel well arthur melnick writes order get export approval for secom nea was necessary through nsa and reveal them the details the program and algorithm this was done only after had finished product submit with the encryption algorithm approved for export set please don insulted but based this would say that your encryption algorithm very likely not worth the paper printed the nsa gave export approval that means they felt confident that they could crack that their job mandated law and sure they believe what they they gave export approval encryption algorithm which they weren confident being able crack they would derelict their sworn duty monitor foreign communications for national security related material just because many most think that the government and the spooks are pugnacious slimeballs reason lose sight the fact that they their jobs the best their ability and further that said ability rather high hope that one day can make them all obsolete but until then have cope with their existence export approvals are one thing they that can learn lot from for example robert bickford rab well don blame voted libertarian
sci.crypt	off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was corporate article strnlghtc wcmo netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes article uvn austin ibm com arussell austin ibm com russell writes the company worked for previously received file that was des encryped and the person that had sent went vaction rather than wait two weeks set straight frontal attack with one key time only took two days crack the file don have any faith des taking this face value though seems quite dissonant with much else that has been published here about brute force des cracking unless russell was lucky with respect the key very interested whether the program russell used available whether used cleartext recognition algorithm the program whether had examine each decryption hand whether used known plaintext attack probably should also tell given his address what machine used desktop workstation super computer depending his answer this could appalling development calling into question both des and rsa des dunno about rsa idea any bright programmer with little idle machine time can crack single des message couple days assuming tricks that are message specific then here clipper key nsa give the chip once david david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy our information errors and omissions excepted person know belonging research lab rivate company claimed during priavte conversation that given the equipment his lab could crack kerberos ticket minutes hour had access rather powerful des hardware but not extraordinare kind believe the attack was possible because the amount known plaintext the ticket which itself constitutes small message this was two years ago des longer usable for encryption really sensitive data for lot purposes however still very adequate jon olnes norwegian computing centre oslo norway mail jon olnes jon ifi uio
sci.crypt	have seen the lobby and lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons writes second the motion all favor favor all have any newsletters are taking down addresses for any the future feel free put such list
sci.crypt	the secret source that announcement article merlin lerami lerctr org david hayes writes article amolitor nmsu edu andrew molitor writes you can get for buck hand must true pretty sure the nsa supposed among many other things provide high quality cryptosystems variety places don recall reading anywhere reliable that they supposed monitor phonecalls monitor usenet provide only cryptosystems they can easily crack etc etc this not say that they don they might but you don know that they and you have evidence that they for almost all values you follows therefore that for most values you your claims about the nsa border paranoia andrew andrew provide some evidence friend mine worked for electronics manufacturer with west coast office they routinely sold story deleted let give you another story that actually happened sell communications boards that use they used high tech our agent the sold system company which packaged product for london bern prague telexed the brits and told them the swiss need pass export paperwork through the the time you needed export lisence for these systems now knew the nsa was watching this traffic just like they are watching this traffic and what you know two weeks later agent the government shows office remind our agents sold systems into the evil empire had better make sure the export lisences were handled properly was part five man office columbus ohio who did this stuff based sources could not reveal assume most the time these guys sat around the office with their thumbs their ass there isn that much stuff coming out columbus wow the electric utility prague sure big worry for these folks the point have created giant bureaucracy nsa with budget bigger than the cia who like all bureaucracies fill their time looking for things the evil empire gone the nsa not they will something fill their time and justify their budgets just wish they too would sit around with their thumbs their ass but that too much hope for they will spy and things like skipjack and subvert people like dorothy denning sigh information farming for addr phone finger the ohio state university jebright magnus acs ohio state edu jim ebright mail jre osu edu support privacy support encryption
sci.crypt	organized lobbying for cryptography article apr csus edu sphughes sfsuvax sfsu edu shaun hughes writes article jgbinn eli yale edu jgfoot minerva cis yale edu writes perhaps these encryption only types would defend the digitized porn was posted encrypted these issues are not seperable you maintain now why would anyone post anything encrypted encryption only use between persons who know how decrypt the data you mean something like uuencode isn super crypto but encrypted scott scott moir satyr irc there really only one requirement smoir world std com for prophet and you got what that also pentangl ursa major spdcc com mouth god bob dobbs
sci.crypt	can des code shipped canada article apr fripp cadre com cadre com writes someone canada asked send him some public domain des file encryption code have legal for send believe legal send des code equipment from the canada with export license think this the only place you can this all other countries require license aside always thought should legal send des software anywhere you follow these rules encrypt your des software with des send the encrypted software the recipient send the key the recipient the only way the person the other end can use your des software she already has des available otherwise they can decrypt your program and useless you guaranteed they already have des have you really violated any law sending them the form your program sure still illegal but seems like good idea todd
sci.crypt	does rush read his mail rsilvers nynexst com robert silvers writes send something rush linbaugh about clinton taking away our right privacy and how the govt standard takes off only people with lots money drug dealers will able justify des stuff will slam clinton for this the air rob seem recall rush saying that has compuserve account anyone wants mail him all need his account number and then could mail him via gateway using dot instead comma like compuserve com this not his address does anyone know his mail address says uses all the time wonder reads alt fan rush limbaugh his ego big enough rick miller rick uwm edu ricxjo discus mil ricxjo muelisto send postcard get one back enposxtigu bildkarton kaj ricevos alion rick miller woods muskego wis usa
sci.crypt	key registering bodies article rubin dsg dse beckman com rubin dsg dse beckman com arthur rubin writes naglec netcom com nagle netcom com john nagle writes since the law requires that wiretaps requested the executive branch and approved the judicial branch seems clear that one the key registering bodies should under the control the judicial branch suggest the supreme court regionally the courts appeal more specifically the offices their clerks now that makes sense but the other half must non government escrow good idea but why put all the eggs one basket given that the escrow keys are generated time floppy disks why not keep them there rather than creating one huge database that will have guarded better than fort knox give each floppy different bank for safekeeping the usa has over banks and thrifts there are not likely more than clipper phones sold ross
sci.crypt	once tapped your code good any more strnlghtc who netcom com david sternlight writes the clipper case representative body experts going allowed audit and have assurances maybe even from the president that other than the escrowed keys there are back doors while some may not have confidence that not among them wow assurances from the president why those are almost good campaign promises don see why anyone wouldn have confidence those
sci.crypt	new encryption psionic wam umd edu haywood blowme writes additonally spoke with melnick about their algorithm couldn tell much about their new agorithm because hasn been patented yet right now the company afraid that the new clipper chip will put them out business this very real possibility they really need help stopping the clipper chip from becoming standard they planning patenting algorithm then hope they out business quickly possible and you can tell them said that sure many other readers these newsgroups will agree too mathew
sci.crypt	revised technical summary clipper chip article apr guvax acc georgetown edu denning guvax acc georgetown edu writes the chips are programmed mykotronx inc which calls them the myk the silicon supplied vlsi technology inc they are implemented micron technology and will initially sell for about each quantities more the price should drop the technology shrunk micron hmmmmmm seems bit expensive how big the chip what kind packages will used volt volt technology how much current will draw think there are many practical questions that haven been answered especially since this chip already exists all clipper chips are programmed inside scif secure compartmented information facility which essentially vault the scif contains laptop computer and equipment program the chips about chips are programmed during single session the scif located mykotronx the beginning session trusted agent from each the two key escrow agencies enters the vault agent enters secret random bit value into the laptop and agent enters secret random bit value these random values serve seeds generate unit keys for sequence serial numbers thus the unit keys are function secret random bits where each agent knows only got big problem with all this how the world you expect sell these chips for even after all the overhead involved this programming procedure people laptop only chips time give break and how long does all this take even minute per chip will take the greater part day turn out these things how long you suppose will take program those chips mentioned above this highly impractical see how the chip used imagine that embedded the telephone security device will suppose call someone and both have such device after pushing button start secure conversation security device will negotiate bit session key with the device the other end where can find info this device what kind vocoder does use does require isdn phone lines not full duplex how does sound what kind synchronization scheme used will all other little black boxes have conform choices protocol etc will anybody else allowed build boxes that conform these specifications doug bank private systems division dougb ecs comm mot com motorola communications sector dougb nwu edu schaumburg illinois dougb casbah acns nwu edu
sci.crypt	the secret source that announcement lerami lerctr org merlin lerami lerctr org david hayes writes andrew provide some evidence friend mine worked for electronics manufacturer with west coast office they routinely sold equipment the japanese one day the japanese started showing with discount demands that were amazingly close the cost manufacture the products this company routinely sent most the manufacturing data the field offices the japanese had simply intercepted friend the computer systems admin came with solution started sending the data out double block encrypted with des two days after this new distribution plan was implemented the president the company got visit from pair government agents they told him knock off the president gave since his company did considerable business with the federal government now the government wasn monitoring the communications how would they even know that the encryption system was installed further since encryp tion isn illegal and des certainly isn what the basis the government cease and desist demand something similar has happened ages ago when were working pgp used send short messages about development issues simply test new features around now this time pgp and certainly the newer version was unknown over here suddenly the admin the site was using received request that stop sending encrypted email now there almost way that some automatic scanner could have found this since they wouldn have known about pgp they must have checked for unknown data types the message tried unscramble found they couldn get past the pem armour part and then contacted the sysadmin and asked stop luckily the current email carriers are less picky about what goes over their networks case people think email scanning doesn take place can assure you that done regularly many sites usually not government agencies least not that know but local administrators who for reasons their own have decided monitor all communications sure you can all think whole mess reasons stop hackers terrorists child pornographers drug dealers evil commies whatever there have been several occasions when got people into trouble simply including the traditional nsa bait message don try any more now friend mine was once picked for mentioning the name the town scunthorpe hint look for words embedded sure there are many more examples this happening fact anyone has any examples appreciate hearing from them could use them ammunition during talks privacy issues peter pgut aukuni gutmann aukuni gutmann kosmos wcc govt peterg kcbbs gen peter nacjack gen peter phlarnschlorpht nacjack gen order preference one bound work don vote you only encourage them
sci.crypt	new encryption martin world std com martin hannigan writes hello the david sternlight keeper the faq unfortuantely cannot find the present time cool will you let people form their own opinions even sternlight might right sometime and you guys are setting things that the only way can regain any credibility renounce his previous statements and move towards the mainstream net opinion this does not bespeak tolerance imo david sternlight net police indeed lyle transarc grant street the gulf tower pittsburgh
sci.crypt	overreacting was once tapped your code good any more article rens apr stimpys imsi com rens imsi com rens troost writes this giant bally over this clipper chip noticed rather disturbing trend some the mail and posts tossing back and forth too tendency the part some people hide their head the sand never advocated hiding the sand advocating peaceful solution while peaceful solution possible unless you want blood your hands how many people you want jailed for their convictions for their insistence real privacy why sit quietly while the preconditions for real civil war are put place short sighted government read the above everybody jumping and down and screaming about and worried that people are going reach for their hammers and rifles before their pens and paper the terminal mightier than the pen type corrected really guess you mean the revolution how about england india mexico france holland english revolution what revolution they never had one india they could get around their religion restrictions mexico point taken forgot about this one france napoleon bonepart would have something say about this holland didn know they had one won comment because don know enough that not very good odds you are misinformed but this whole issue off the topic actually consider the issue topic when you start gambling with fire crackers sooner later somebody going lose hand when the cops kick your door for using pgp tell them that all doing here exercising our called rapidly narrowing right free speech fine exercise the right free speech that great but don resort armed violence until there other possibility perhaps you should talk the government about that are you disciple david the cops are our friends sternlight believe there are bad cops and good cops there are bad people and good people and all that grey inbetween have had the pleasure knowing police officer who did his best uphold the laws swore defend have also seen what happens when police power abused don generalize either direction just causes problems the implied threat the illegalization private crypto the not subtle subtext the clipper announcement what worries don want children growing police state either nice can worms ain jerry han crc doc div behavioural research jhan debra dgbt doc these are opinions and opinions only proud and frozen member the mighty warriors band memories those left behind still ringing ears genesis
sci.crypt	overreacting was once tapped your code good any more article edu uni acs edu shaen bernhardt writes the point remains more and more see the government slowly washing away privacy even unwittingly you think will ever live soceity that issues smart cards citizens birth you think will live soceity that insists register crypto keys they can keep track what saying even there evidence guilt you think will ever live soceity that seeks meddle the affairs its citizenry without recourse any kind tired there imho compromise with administration that seeks implement these proposals under the guise enhancing privacy more than the proposals themselves read the language the press releases the obvious deception involved presenting these pieces the public and sickened revolted repulsed perhaps even this country could care less about the clipper chip the wiretap bill the smart card because they are entrapped the rhetoric the clinton administration this saddens and frightens conserveative believe not law and order conserveative but the move centralized authoratarian regime really scares mostly because know you cant far wrong underestimating the intelligence the american people tell them going keep them safe from drug dealers and terrorists and they will let you put cameras their home even the wake waco you find those who support the increasingly totalatarian moves quite honest the way things are going call self defense and dont want mine growning the eyes security camera hours day never advocated not saying what you believe advocating second thought and calm smart warrior defeats the enemy ambush the battlefield smarter warrior defeats the enemy open warfare the battlefield the smartest warrior defeats the enemy without using the battlefield think about uni acs edu public keys finger and request public key archives pgp public keys pgp iastate edu sovereignty the sign brutal past fight clinton wiretap chip crypto not crime ask how jerry han crc doc div behavioural research jhan debra dgbt doc these are opinions and opinions only proud and frozen member the mighty warriors band memories those left behind still ringing ears genesis
sci.crypt	off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was corporate acceptance the wiretap chip jon lnes jon ifi uio writes person know belonging research lab rivate company claimed during priavte conversation that given the equipment his lab could crack kerberos ticket minutes hour had access rather powerful des hardware but not extraordinare kind believe the attack was possible because the amount known plaintext the ticket which itself constitutes small message this was two years ago that would ticket presumably not ticket the ticket format can even complicated several more orders magnitude lyle transarc grant street the gulf tower pittsburgh
sci.crypt	new encryption article sfpzmnz bwwbmdwhuc transarc com lyle seaman transarc com writes martin world std com martin hannigan writes hello the david sternlight keeper the faq unfortuantely cannot find the present time cool will you let people form their own opinions even sternlight might right sometime and you guys are setting things that the only way can regain any credibility renounce his previous statements and move towards the mainstream net opinion this does not bespeak tolerance imo david sternlight net police indeed lyle transarc grant street the gulf tower pittsburgh hopefully doesnt take personal martin hannigan twisted pair consulting mac ibm mainframe unix
sci.crypt	strong encryption just posted this reply comp risks answering risks digest summary mark seecof key escrow from mark seecof marks wimsey latimes com subject key escrow clipper chip risks advances digital computing have made possible for ordinary people use powerful machine cipher techniques tempting albeit chauvinistic believe that have new situation here thanks our pet computers this not true david kahn the codebreakers history cryptography makes two things obvious cryptography spontaneous invention private human individuals and has been going for thousands years teen age slang and cipher inventions provide modern example this spontaneous creation the systems people created their own were roughly secure and sometimes more secure than those used military and diplomatic users that time although they seem very simple and insecure today places the bible used more complex simple substitution than caesar did for his military dispatches but before caesar commend kahn book all who might interested disclaimer all opinions expressed are own course carl ellison cme stratus com stratus computer inc bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough fax
sci.crypt	once tapped your code good any more russotto vnet ibm com matthew russotto writes the clipper case representative body experts going allowed audit and have assurances maybe even from the president that other than the escrowed keys there are back doors while some may not have confidence that not among them wow assurances from the president why those are almost good campaign promises don see why anyone wouldn have confidence those don think clinton can even understand the technical details the clipper encryption scheme his assurances are value gives them just says what panel experts told him lived the usa would hope those experts were not paid the fill here you favorite letter combination wevers the only nature reality physics johan stack urc tue
sci.crypt	have seen the lobby and lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons wrote some kind soul out there would write letter and upload the net everyone could capture print out and snail mail out their local congressional critter btw working one you should realize that form letters are the worst way influence your congresscritters exact copies are routinely placed the lowest rung the opinion ladder you want write and think you should take the time really write letter things emphasize been said that usenet available the technical elite the techies corporate sites and universi ties emphasize that you are part the group that will making developing using clinton data superhighway explain how you are intimately familiar with both computing and data communications this the case don call your self expert after wiring bps modem this will distinguish your letter from the random flamers don turn into braggadocio just tell them that you know the technical sides the issue don overdo jargon and gobbledygook remember your letter will first read all likelihood staffer who may even college student they don understand your views won even make the running total sheets concise don ramble rants are definitely out place cite references necessary but only use accepted references like academic journals neighbor jim not real refer ence unfortunately very few congresscritters really understand electronic communications encourage them pick access compuserve america online one the free nets offer send them samples you are position offer them their staffers back the home state access your systems offer give demonstration the next time they town your offer get personally involved helping them will give your opinions more credence addition sending mail your representatives send mail the members the committee subcommittee that dealing with the issue your congresscritter isn the committee they can much help until the matter comes the floor wes suggest drawing analogies between digital communication and the more traditional media but usenet doesn have decent track record the analogy department rachel elizabeth morgan yeah can reached pounds ounces despite coming weeks early morgan engr uky edu netters who gave constant encouragement and prayer thanks for everything
sci.crypt	screw the people crypto for hard core hackers spooks only ifarqhar laurel ocs edu ian farquhar writes hmmm also wonder what intergraph thinks about the use the name clipper for this device not mention computer associates have careful stop telling people clipper programmer they might lynch mathew
sci.crypt	does rush read his mail rick uwm edu rick miller writes rsilvers nynexst com robert silvers writes send something rush linbaugh about clinton taking away our right privacy and how the govt standard takes off only people with lots money drug dealers will able justify des stuff will slam clinton for this the air rob seem recall rush saying that has compuserve account anyone wants mail him all need his account number and then could mail him via gateway using dot instead comma like compuserve com this not his address does anyone know his mail address says uses all the time wonder reads alt fan rush limbaugh his ego big enough rick miller rick uwm edu ricxjo discus mil ricxjo muelisto send postcard get one back enposxtigu bildkarton kaj ricevos alion heard doesn read alt fan rush but have idea compuserve mail address
sci.crypt	overreacting was once tapped your code good any more fplpdh bwwbedwenj transarc com lyle seaman transarc com writes look collectively have the power throw the bums out but don use clearly don need burning things down but clearly need throw least some the bums out unfortunately the bums have learned target only small groups people single time the masses won react and throw them out eventually the masses will react unless the bums cease their relentless encroachment liberty and despoilment the economy the sooner happens the less the damages will don want live war zone either want see the bums thrown out before they some real damage before they some real damage you haven been paying attention seems the called war drugs has already done major damage the constitution howard shubs hshubs bix com for win victories the denim adept hshubs cis umassd edu battles not the acme skill
sci.crypt	does rush read his mail rsilvers nynexst com robert silvers writes send something rush linbaugh about clinton taking away our right privacy and how the govt standard takes off only people with lots money drug dealers will able justify des stuff will slam clinton for this the air slam clinton for anything all the air just not understand why remains popular take piece video clinton walking along find frame which clinton wrinkles his nose say freeze and blow full screen and then rant for five minutes how one could possibly trust someone with such face and such beady greedy little eyes seen this his show was around the time the inauguration can anyone call this stuff legitimate hate say informed commentary how can anyone with half brain his her head continue watch the american watching and guess radio listening public never ceases amaze oops have just inadvertently answered own question myself only see when run across every couple months when channel surfing late night the longest been able stand him was about minutes apologies for stripping the alt fan rush groups from the newsgroups line the software here apparently rejects anything with groups don carry and don carry those also removed sci crypt from followups nets levin bbn com there were sweetheart roses yancey wilmerding pots bureau that morning wide eyed and distraught she mnf stood with all her faculties rooted the floor perelman
sci.crypt	organized lobbying for cryptography article apr gems vcu edu langford gems vcu edu writes second amendment gives the right keep and bear arms strong cryptography arms according the government that why hard export therefore have constituitional right strong cryptography better think our right peacably assemble have right meet you park and talk privately have right see anyone nearby listening cyberspace cryptography gives right assemble with control over who overhears disclaimer all opinions expressed are own course carl ellison cme stratus com stratus computer inc bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough fax
sci.crypt	overreacting was once tapped your code good any more article edu uni acs edu shaen bernhardt writes conserveative believe not law and order conserveative but the move centralized authoratarian regime really scares mostly because know you cant far wrong underestimating the intelligence the american people tell them going keep them safe from drug dealers and terrorists and they will let you put cameras their home there one point like make that most people seem have forgotten that that one the underlining principles the constitution distrust governmental authority and control all those checks balances because they realize that you should distrust those power what everyone seems have forgotten well the original reason that the bill rights guaranteed the right bear arms inclusion was not allow you protect yourself against other citizens but prevent the government from taking away your only means protecting yourself from armed and aggressive government its hard oppress your citizenry when its armed against you not fanatic retired naval officer because have spent much time defending perhaps understand its purpose well its plan lance kimes
sci.crypt	does rush read his mail henson wwu edu sean dean writes other posts deleted heard doesn read alt fan rush but have idea compuserve mail address does anyone have rush limbaugh mail address there anyone out there compuserve who might able look otherwise find maybe would impossible but thought should least ask weather zeus tamu edu ken blair
sci.crypt	write clinton transfer stratus com cme ellisun stratus com carl ellison writes been reading the sci crypt alt privacy clipper and comp org eff talk discussions about the clipper chip and find usual that most think alike there lot repitition each these messages were sent clinton well the net instead the net might actually have some effect mcimail com white house already written char commentary from mci mail account can accused being hacker arthur rubin rubin dsg dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet cts com personal opinions are own and not represent those employer
sci.crypt	program eurocrypt may lofthus norway program eurocrypt may lofthus norway general chair kaare presttun email eurocrypt alcatel program chair tor helleseth department informatics university bergen bergen norway email torh uib monday may session authentication chair seberry welcome and opening remarks the relation between codes and codes correcting independent errors johansson smeets lund university sweden and kabatianskii institute for problems information transmission russia optimal authentication systems safavi naini and tombak university wollongong australia coffee tea session public key chair odlyzko factoring integers using simd sieves dixon princeton university usa and lenstra bellcore usa new elliptic curve based analogue rsa demytko telecom research laboratories australia weaknesses public key cryptosystem based factorization finite groups stern ens france lunch session block ciphers chair santis differentially uniform mappings for cryptography nyberg technical university vienna austria permutations against differential cryptanalysis beth and ding eiss university karlsruhe germany two new classes bent functions carlet inria france boolean functions satisfying higher order strict avalanche condition cusick suny buffalo usa coffee tea session secret sharing chair desmedt size shares and probability cheating threshold schemes carpentieri santis and vaccaro university salerno italy nonperfect secret sharing schemes and matroids kurosawa okada sakano ogata and tsujii tokyo institute technology japan tuesday may session streamciphers chair helleseth from the memoars norwegian cryptolog selmer university bergen norway invited talk the linear complexity products shift register sequences gottfert and niderreiter austrian academy sciences vienna austria coffee tea session streamciphers chair gollman resynchronisation weaknesses synchronous stream ciphers daemen govaerts and vandewalle esat leuven belgium blind synchronization sequences with even span games and rushanan mitre usa constructions and nonlinearity correlation immune functions seberry zhang and zheng university wollongong australia lunch session digital signatures chair schnorr practical and provable secure release secret and exchange signatures damgard aarhus university denmark subliminal communication easy using the dsa simmons can oss repaired naccache gemplus france coffee tea session protocols chair kurosawa limitations logical analysis cryptographic protocols boyd and mao university manchester united kingdom practical anonymous and secure voting scheme itoh park and kurosawa tokyo institute technology japan untransferable rights client independent server environment domingo ferrer university barcelona spain interactive hashing simplifies zero knowledge protocol design ostrovsky berkeley usa venkatesan bellcore usa and yung ibm watson usa rump session chair ingemarsson accepted paper security digital mobile communication systems park kurosawa okamoto and tsujii tokyo institute technology japan wednesday may session hash functions chair preneel one way accumulators decentralized alternative digital signatures benaloh and mare clarkson university usa some attacks the arl hash function damgard and knudsen aarhus university denmark collisions for the compression function den boer and bosselaers esat leuven belgium how find and avoid collisions for the knapsack hash function patarin bull france coffee tea session payment systems chair damgard single term off line coins ferguson cwi amsterdam the netherlands improved privacy wallets with observers cramer cwi amsterdam the netherlands and pedersen aarhus university denmark how prevent the mafia fraud using distance bounding protocols brands and chaum cwi amsterdam the netherlands lunch session cryptanalysis chair simmons the distribution characteristics bijective mappings connor university waterloo canada the security the idea block cipher meier htl switzerland linear cryptanalysis method for des cipher matsui mitsubishi japan new types cryptanalytic attacks using related keys biham technion israel coffee tea session protocols chair landrock reconciliation secret key through public discussion brassard and salvail university montreal canada global unpredictable bit generation without broadcast beaver and penn state university usa iacr business meeting keywords
sci.crypt	the secret source that announcement bear tigger colorado edu bear giles writes wish them luck figuring out who based that information they can probably figure out liberal with technical degree but humanistic interests from common thread throughout posts but that describes fair portion the users internet sounds like you are the brother sibble hey that wasn nice shut posting now both you pipe down will take control the arms and sock you the mouth
sci.crypt	suggestions for escrow agencies was more technical details paul robichaux robichau lambda msfc nasa gov wrote private citizen would feel much more secure person and papers knowing that organization committed individual civil liberties the aclu and the nra come mind was safeguarding half key both the aclu and the nra are resistent government pressure the simple expedient fact that they are not supported funded overtly controlled the government thats one problem that has far been overlooked these two escrow agencies will have create secure database and service the input and output keys who pays for this they refuse illegal request from some congressman deliver key can their budget cut punish them will congress forced fund them forever the problem that laws can change congress may pass law setting escrow agency with instructions that keys are private some future congress may change that law suppose pre nazi germany had clipper system you think the escrow agencies would have told hitler that could not have the keys without valid court order effect you must set escrow agencies fourth branch the goverment and isolate them from any outside interferance they will able directly tap into federal funds with accountability anyone except through court challenge john eaton vcd johne
sci.crypt	have seen the lobby and article apr eff org charles gross acg eff org writes the nra successful because among number things the drop hat they can get congresspersons office flooded with postcards faxes and phone calls certainly with our way cool internet powers organization can act the same way such action appropriate don know about you but have nearly forgotten how generate paper mail had mail congress would have written many letters now haven written one yet turns out writing paper such complicated job for those hooked our way cool internet disclaimer all opinions expressed are own course carl ellison cme stratus com stratus computer inc bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough fax
sci.crypt	off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was corporate article cmm jon gode ifi uio jon lnes jon ifi uio writes person know belonging research lab rivate company claimed during priavte conversation that given the equipment his lab could crack kerberos ticket minutes hour had access rather powerful des hardware but not extraordinare kind believe the attack was possible because the amount known plaintext the ticket which itself constitutes small message this was two years ago des longer usable for encryption really sensitive data for lot purposes however still very adequate this sounds awful lot like password guesser not weakness des merritt and pointed out this weakness kerberos paper that came out about years ago both computer communications review and usenix for that matter was loudly discussed the kerberos mailing list even earlier the problem has nothing whatsoever with des and everything with bad password selection perfectly willing believe that there are cryptanalytic attacks possible des quite dubious that private research labs know them and the parameters brute force attack are quite well established see for example the garon and outerbridge paper the july cryptologia you not going hour with only rather powerful des hardware leave the arithmetic exercise for the reader average you need trials pick your own parameters for how fast the des engine runs and for how many such engines are used
sci.crypt	crypto penpals came lurked read the faq now having purchased the recommended books and having taken heart the advice that one knows nothing about crypto without having done stint cryptanalyst would like correspond with people interested cryptology working implementing the cryptanalyst workbench example booch ood with applications hope start sending ciphers back and forth each can practice cracking them would like start with simple ceaser ciphers and progress roughly according david kahn book course would interested general discussions and math also hope have some foriegn correspondants that can test the response time the men the suits been hearing much about unfortunately product the american education system only know english looking forward any and all responses james james kliegel kliegel key amdahl com
sci.crypt	have seen the lobby and transfer stratus com cme ellisun stratus com carl ellison writes article apr eff org charles gross acg eff org writes the nra successful because among number things the drop hat they can get congresspersons office flooded with postcards faxes and phone calls certainly with our way cool internet powers organization can act the same way such action appropriate don know about you but have nearly forgotten how generate paper mail had mail congress would have written many letters now haven written one yet turns out writing paper such complicated job for those hooked our way cool internet that what mci mail for compuserve also has congressgrams this not intended advertisement that really what mci mail was intended for according their ads arthur rubin rubin dsg dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet cts com personal opinions are own and not represent those employer
sci.crypt	clipper freedom comments begin pgp signed message gasp just spent hours catching sci crypt here slow reader guess and really have put out few comments too first let flame the famous dave obviously only years old cut him some slack the joke about clinton crypto drugs slammed thru the roof nice job guys been working marijuana legalization for over years now clinton actions far have really helped but because government action taken against various other groups have developed bit des based public literature protect mailing list the boxes are the critical component and since chose out based the key cracking this des going tough the reason slows you down touch that for each key you try you need use different set boxes know only vector but sure makes random search pain several marijuana legalization groups have had their mailing lists confiscated when people were charged with drug use sales not crime member legalization org but you will watched really important write letter every official you personally vote for explain why your privacy being destroyed the cripple chip amazingly enough they listen when they get enough mail the doonsbery jokes about nra postcards are real and the imi illinois marijuana initiative has grown the point where are seeing some changes pretty clear that all the hullabaloo really about the implimentation decision being made behind our backs vesselin points out this was common practice communist regimes and may again depending how the vote goes but just criminals have guns and law abiding citizens don and criminals like have marijuana and law abiding subjects don criminals like will have secure crypto while law abiding robots don pgp nice but time goes all can better and save our hides will someone posted excerpt from machiavelli favorite dude years ago saw clearly how people are and tried explain that princes who wanted people obey one section not quoted got the prince home just paraphrase had with conquring free city the only way completly destroy failing that you must appoint locals high positions and accept the people customs even after years oppression people will remember their heratige and rise overthrow the oppresive government and gave example and that was years before thomas jefferson there were questions about watching traffic only interesting traffic watched stuff that goes overseas and comes back stuff with keywords like marijauana cryptography nsa certain individuals who are known subversives etc easy enough store all that traffic you know how subversive how unseen pretty easy unnoticed for long time the stronger your crypto system and the less you noticed the better your chances developing organization which can diseminate truth the masses which gets the thread about public encrypted conference that just silly the first thing the feds send infiltrator like dave and they know what you doing will fun for teenagers and college students but for the real world pretty pointless crypto useful for more things than hiding where you get your marijuana guns drugs and crypto have some commonality there are people government who want you obey their rules lundquist says alt drugs live free don machiavelli pointed out that just how most people actually live inspite appearences the contrary true that the decision shove the clipper not the same thing intergraph down our throats violates the principles what the was founded but the government full idiotic robots called bureaucrats and there less worry about than one might think only really innocent read naive subjects the will hurt this the rest criminals will live secure freedom toqueville pointed out years ago that the tyranny the majority will mitigated the mediocrity the government and given what see government officials doing where work argonne national lab the level stupidity makes dave look smart patience persistence truth work dvader hemp imi hep anl gov mike home mrosing igc org
sci.crypt	once tapped your code good any more article strnlghtc who netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes wouldn think asking people trust secret algorithm seems unsound maybe but quite common there are millions macintosh users who have idea what apple patented roms many have modems connected how you know all your business secrets aren being stolen answer because you trust apple because any such attempt however sophicsticated came out would destroy apple credibility forever then there also because not secret want can look apple copyrighted roms mac they not keeping any secrets you don even have pry the top off the chip and use electron microscope you just have read the data memory and see you can figure out what means motorola object code isn all that obscure yes copyrighted can selling copies using the copy myself but can see and disassemble they not asking trust their honesty they asking trust the quality their assembly language programming but can see for myself what the performance price and crashes day are nsa organization not known for its honesty openness asking trust them with privacy but they won trust feh pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com bell labs holmdel from new jersey only work cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	clipper not good enough for government there been some discussion very recently whether the government once again might exempt themselves from something they use screw over well from comp dcom telecom from lesreeves attmail com subject odds ends the news the clipper chip device introduced yesterday may not suitable for government use says house telecom subcommittee chairman markey letter commerce secretary brown markey asked whether the use the technology could lead inadvertently increased costs those companies hoping serve both the government and private markets markey has ordered brown answer several questions about security and cost concerns april communications daily show guy who afraid look bad and show you guy you can beat every time renee auberjonois
sci.crypt	screw the people crypto for hard core hackers spooks only article apr lehman com pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger writes qualcomm had spare cycles the dsps for their new cdma digital cellular phones they wanted put strong crypto into them since they had the capacity the government decided discourage them you blowing smoke qualcomm wants sell nice lucrative overseas markets like japan and the the government told them don encryption you ever hope export this technology the reason that cdma doesn have encryption not because the men came knocking qualcomm door because qualcomm doesn think that the market for digital cellular big enough for them this just the international traffic arms regulations all over again perry has already stated the net that qualcomm wanted sell overseas and the government told them they wouldn allowed export only blowing the same smoke you are sure they probably could have made version and non crypto export version and contracted with bulgarian japanese software house develop overseas crypto rom but that getting pretty expensive cylink sells their phones because they willing make different stuff for domestic use export qualcomm isn cylink makes money that capitalism comrade well some people like capitalism and others prefer free enterprise they different using the government stifle your competition capitalist someone out there will build unit all this better yet prehaps someone will produce package that turns any box with sound card into secure phone someone this and someone that you think easy why are you whining the net instead getting your butt gear and writing writing good crypto code something most good programmers can writing good new crypto algorithms very specialized skill developing new voice coding algorithms also pretty specialized but finding ways implement the more complex ones when you don have enough horsepower still fairly hairy stuff once the pentium becomes widespread the next generation sound boards has dsps suspect see happen maybe the vanilla soundblaster enough pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com bell labs holmdel from new jersey only work cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	screw the people crypto for hard core hackers spooks only article strnlghtc wjag netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes doug holland claims tom clancy has provided the recipe for nuclear bombs clancy himself says has omitted certain crucial steps further how know clancy knows rather than repeating what read been told the unclassified domain the other hand when john aristotle phillips was junior princeton trying keep from flunking physics doing terrific term paper his atom bomb design was good enough that got classified few the steps were derived from social engineering the name the explosive but was fundamentally sound and did get the pakistan embassy also called him trying get copy the time they were lobbying the government get some nuclear reactors for purely non military electrical power generation pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com bell labs holmdel from new jersey only work cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	organized lobbying for cryptography article hcs transfer stratus com cme ellisun stratus com carl ellison writes paraphrase may not agree with what you encrypting but defend your right encrypt great slogan ready sign with crypto lobbying effort though wouldn want through nra offshoot shall also push for the cra cryptographic rights amendment dwight tuinstra best tuinstra sandman ece clarkson edu tolerable tuinstrd craft camp clarkson edu homo sapiens planetary cancer news six
sci.crypt	suggestions for escrow agencies was more technical details article vcd com johne vcd com john eaton writes thats one problem that has far been overlooked these two escrow agencies will have create secure database and service the input and output keys who pays for this they refuse illegal request from some congressman deliver key can their budget cut punish them will congress forced fund them forever the easiest way user fee for each clipper chip manufactured this makes the funding separate from government also has the neat side property that the chip doesn catch the scheme breaks down and the government back the drawing boards assuming that they haven prohibited alternatives the meantime fact maybe this should part the official system before the government allowed move this past the experimental stage they should have demonstrate economic viability mass adoption the government very fond demonstration projects proving feasibility the use government funds for social programs they should have make similar feasibility demonstration economic viability cum acceptance terms for this baby well let put the only vote that counts marketplace vote among those who have pay for david david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	meeting cryptoprivacy association begin pgp signed message meeting the cryptoprivacy association saturday may held the offices forest floor grosvenor gardens london this located the corner hobart place couple blocks west victoria station and almost directly across from the dark green cabbie shelter you have trouble finding the place please call the office call russell whitaker pager and leave informative message with the telephone number where you can reached will return the call almost immediately discussion will range from the usual general topics such the use secure public key cryptosystems protect message data specific topics such recent moves the government restrict choice data privacy reference recent discussion usenet groups sci crypt and alt security pgp all are invited particularly welcome are members the newly formed community group the local eff spirit not name folks those who plan attend should email and let know please all attendees are requested bring diskettes preferably dos with their pgp public keys usual these gatherings several will bring our laptops and will sign public keys subject the usual caveats reference the documentation for pgp specifically files pgpdoc doc and pgpdoc doc you not already have copy pgp dos and would like have copy this public domain program please bring formatted medium high density inch floppy diskette you will provided copy the program course you might prefer ftp version the program from one the various archive sites suggest trying demon internet systems which carries the full range pgp phil zimmerman pretty good privacy implementations directory pub pgp gate demon meetings are indeterminate time those who are interested are invited join the rest pseudorandomly determined pub afterwards please note the past few months interested people have emailed requesting faqs and special information mailings regret that except very unusual cases working press cannot timely manner respond these requests will however and for the first time writeup this meeting which will post various places what willing supply general information our activities for the maintainers existing faqs such that for alt privacy faq maintainers can contact whitaker eternity demon russell earl whitaker whitaker eternity demon communications editor amix rwhitaker extropy the journal transhumanist thought board member extropy institute exi pgp public key available
sci.crypt	the secret source that announcement article apr aukuni pgut aukuni peter gutmann writes something similar has happened ages ago when were working pgp used send short messages about development issues simply test new features around now this time pgp and certainly the newer version was unknown over here suddenly the admin the site was using received request that stop sending encrypted email now there almost way that some automatic scanner could have found this since they wouldn have known about pgp they must have checked for unknown data types the message tried unscramble found they couldn get past the pem armour part and then contacted the sysadmin and asked stop luckily the current email carriers are less picky about what goes over their networks the sending encrypted traffic without government permission legal new zealand david david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	revised technical summary clipper chip article apr guvax acc georgetown edu denning guvax acc georgetown edu writes each chip includes the following components the skipjack encryption algorithm bit family key that common all chips bit serial number this length subject change bit secret key that unlocks all messages encrypted with the chip see how the chip used imagine that embedded the telephone security device will suppose call someone and both have such device after pushing button start secure conversation security device will negotiate bit session key with the device the other end this key negotiation takes place without the clipper chip general any method key exchange can used such the diffie hellman public key distribution method once the session key established the clipper chip used encrypt the conversation message stream digitized voice the telephone security device feeds and into the chip produce two values the encrypted message stream and law enforcement field which are transmitted over the telephone line the law enforcement field thus contains the session key encrypted under the unit key concatenated with the serial number all encrypted under the family key the law enforcement field decrypted law enforcement after authorized wiretap has been installed one very interesting thing notice about this that the only use the chip key encode the session key for the law enforcement field not used all the encryption algorithm seems like would possible create device that would otherwise compatible but would send out bogus law enforcement field this might render the device unusable with normal devices there some sort validation involving the law enforcement field but could certainly used with other such modified devices course this irrelevant the nsa has backdoor the algorithm but does make possible defeat the key escrow system wilt thou seal avenues ill pay every tom weinstein debt though god wrote the bill emmerson tomw orac esd sgi com
sci.crypt	the secret source that announcement jebright magnus acs ohio state edu james ebright writes assume most the time these guys sat around the office with their thumbs their ass there isn that much stuff coming out columbus compuserve columbus are the corporate headquarters several major insurance companies the largest private company the world batelle memorial institute dcsc the defense construction supply center ohio state university one the three largest universities oclc the online college library center and you amazed actually columbus only looks like cow town amanda walker intercon systems corporation
sci.crypt	summary responses research oracle password security original post was building oracle database serve repository for information which considered proprietary confidential such want verify the security oracle passwords and apply some the same security checking techniques use our nix systems specifically would like use crack something like check the encrypted data for easily guessed passwords the use crack would depend oracle using the unix password encryption scheme does anyone know this the case what method used any other methods for security checking audit the oracle environment would much appreciated this article will just scratch the surface few security considerations comments are requested email world std com thanks the people who responded both usenet and from oracle corp the most common response was suggest use oracle audit features ops passwords control access opinion ops included suggestions use and not use was also advised use table views refine the granularity access control one important security consideration networked installations that ops accounts presume that the client host provides user authentication server ops users are only secure the least secure machine the network hence you should probably not define any ops accounts systems with limit access ops accounts data with security concerns unix oracle servers provide for disabling ops access over the network orasrv option while relying host security for local processes internally oracle provides powerful and well documented sic audit mechanisms which the dba will use monitor system and data access these tools can used track the primary security risks from within the oracle environment oracle password security based proprietary usage des encryption oracle corp states that the algorithm not prone cleartext attack this difficult claim substantiate since the algorithm unknown the concern here that users choose easily guessed passwords cracker can gain access your oracle database files through the host operating system could extract the cyphertext password data and apply cryptanalysis techniques learn the users passwords security risks the above scenario pretty low severity certainly once intruder has access the raw database files can access the data them cracker could break the passwords however could substantial damage without alerting the auditing mechanism and leaving and audit trail which would point valid users present oracle like unix provides native means ensuring that passwords are not guessable with all computer security the most important defense educate users the safe choice passwords these techniques are well discussed internet rfc and the crack manual both available from ftp archive servers and unix system security curry david addison welsey forrest whitcher world std com boston scientific corp watertown
sci.crypt	once tapped your code good any more article strnlghtc who netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes article rubin dsg dse beckman com rubin dsg dse beckman com arthur rubin writes wouldn think asking people trust secret algorithm seems unsound maybe but quite common not when your talking about cryptography there are millions macintosh users who have idea what apple patented roms many have modems connected how you know all your business secrets aren being stolen answer because you trust apple think again you won see using apple new signature from the finder feature because any such attempt however sophicsticated came out would destroy apple credibility forever this analogy fails its assumption that the government gives two squirts about credibility addition apple proclaimed purpose releasing the macintosh wasn survellience quite the opposite january apple will introduce macintosh and you see why won like don give any bullshit analogies about how trust coke not put mind control drugs every can get buy more the clipper case representative body experts going allowed audit and have assurances maybe even from the president that other than the escrowed keys there are back doors while some may not have confidence that not among them lot more assurance than get for many things routinely trust everyday life one the reasons should all the more suspicious when was the last time the president wasted his time comfort americans just another reason look closely exactally what going david david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy our information errors and omissions excepted uni acs edu uni acs edu public keys finger and request public key archives pgp public keys pgp iastate edu sovereignty the sign brutal past fight clinton wiretap chip crypto not crime ask how
sci.crypt	what would happen export restrictions violated heard lot talk about the nsa infamous control over encryption export through the itar here question say develop this great new encryption system and want sell software worldwide the thought police then come and say this algorithm threat national security you will not permitted export this point what kind trouble could get into ignored the itar and sold program international customers anyway doug holland doug holland anyone who tries take away freedom holland colostate edu speech will have pry from pgp key available mail cold dead lips
sci.crypt	secret algorithm clipper chip and crypto key escrow article mjs apr behemoth genetics wisc edu mjs behemoth genetics wisc edu mike schmelzer writes let ask you this would you trust richard nixon with your crypto keys wouldn take you mean president nixon not private citizen nixon sure nothing doing would the slightest interest president nixon sternlight your naivete and historical ignorance appalling history lesson detailing deleted nonsense wasn asked larry brien should trust nixon with his keys but whether would david david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	the clipper chip technical summary pat myrto says law enforcement wants keys let them get court order and then ask him for them most use probably cause wiretapping warrants isn decrypt historical traffic but for prospective listening once probably cause established pat approach would tip off the crooks david david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	parable scottmi microsoft com scott miller techcom writes stikes that all this concern over the government ability eavesdrop little overblown what can they today understanding that they already can tap listen get access exc our phone lines bank records etc etc again well they can listen much mine since already use cryptography for much electronic mail and will start using for telephony soon practical however allow tell parable there was once far away land called ruritania and ruritania there was strange phenonmenon all the trees that grew ruritainia were transparent now the days when people had lived mud huts this had not been problem but now high tech wood technology had been developed and the new age wood everyone ruritania found that their homes were all see through now until this point one ever thought allowing the police spy someone home but the new technology made this tempting this being civilized country however warrants were required use binoculars and watch someone their home the police taking advantage this would get warrants use binoculars and peer see what was going occassionally they would use binoculars without warrant but everyone pretended that this didn happen one day smart man invented paint and you painted your house suddenly the police couldn watch all your actions will things would back the way they were the old age completely private indignant the state decided try require that all homes have video cameras installed every nook and cranny after all they said with this new development crime could run rampant installing video cameras doesn mean that the police get any new capability they are just keeping the old one wise man pointed out that citizens were not obligated make the lives the police easy that the police had survived all through the mud hut age without being able watch the citizens will and that ruritania was civilized country where not everything that was expedient was permitted for instance neighboring country had been discovered that torture was extremely effective way solve crimes ruritania had banned this practice spite its expedience indeed why have warrants all asked are interested only expedience famous paint technologist dorothy quisling intervened however she noted that people might take photographs children masturbating should the new paint technology widely deployed without safeguards and the law was passed soon was discovered that some citizens would cover their mouths while speaking each other thus preventing the police from reading their lips through the video cameras this had prevented the police said after all was preventing them from conducting their lawful surveilance the wise man pointed out that the police had never before been allowed listen people homes but dorothy quisling pointed out that people might use this new invention covering their mouths with veils discuss the kidnapping and mutilation children one the legislature wanted accused being favor mutilating children but then again one wanted interfere people rights wear what they liked compromise was reached whereby all homes were installed with microphones each room accompany the video cameras the wise man lamented few any child mutilations had ever been solved the old lip reading technology but was too late the microphones were installed everwhere however was discovered that this was insufficient prevent citizens from hiding information from the authorities because some them would cleverly speak languages that the police could not understand new law was proposed force all citizens speak all times only ruritanian and for good measure require that they speak clearly and distinctly near the microphones after all dorothy quisling pointed out they might using the opportunity speak private mask terrorist activities terrorism struck terror into everyone hearts and they rejoiced the brulliance this new law meanwhile the wise man talked one evening his friends how all this was making sham the constitution ruritania which all ruritanians were proud why asked are obligated sacrifice all our freedom and privacy make the lives the police easier there isn any real evidence that this makes any big dent crime anyway all does make our privacy forfeit the state however the wise man made the mistake saying this the law required ruritanian clearly and distinctly and near microphone soon the newly formed ruritanian secret police arrived and took him off and got him confess torturing him torture was after all far more efficient than the old methods and had been recently instituted stop the recent wave people thinking obscene thoughts about tomatoes which dorothy quisling noted was one the major problems the new age plenty and joy perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer monde lui meme
sci.crypt	new encryption algorithm arthur melnick posts interesting first hand message about his nea algorithm though have reason disbelieve anything says want clarify one point says has connection with the nsa was part nsa plot course say that now don think but the level some discussion here that sort and very quickly reach the point where impossible continue rationally discussing some issues not crook well you were course you say that the ever popular favorite please prove the following negative don know what with such messages have taken ignoring them comments david david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	the clipper chip technical summary for some reason fingers want type probably cause whenever want say probable cause sorry for any confusion the previous message david david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	once tapped your code good any more article edu uni acs edu shaen bernhardt writes don give any bullshit analogies about how trust coke not put mind control drugs every can get buy more shhh coke drinkers haven found out about phosphoric acid yet david david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	can des code shipped canada article strnlghtc wkrt netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes believe illegal send any cryptographic code out the country without export license others will correct this inaccurate glad you are correct illegal send cryptographic code and lots other things out the country without license however every citizen has general export license allowing export lots things including constitutionally protected speech this has the effect that legal for citizens export some things which illegal for corporation export without first obtaining license dunno you get one for the particular code you have the only way find out apply for license nope talk good lawyer the area export law but general the government has have very good national security case try prevent the export anything you personally might wish publish yes worded that the way did intentionally lot easier for the government try prevent the export information than charge someone with crime after the fact espionage probably the only exception note that you need distinguish between what legal send canada you have such license and what legal send you don you are citizen you have general license not lawyer take some this with grain salt however have also had swim through both itar and export regs few cases robert eachus with standard disclaimer use standard disclaimer function message text clever ideas return better ideas
sci.crypt	crypto file system reference while ago there was reference paper crypto file system cfs given someone how can get copy available the net was published who was the author thanks peter reilley pvr wiis wang com lat well that about says
sci.crypt	sorry folks read this article acsu buffalo edu mckee buffalo edu douglas mckee writes article apr ucsu colorado edu andersom spot colorado edu marc anderson writes article apr ucsu colorado edu andersom spot colorado edu marc anderson writes the date have for this washington upi the war drugs about get fresh just found out from source that this article was joke heh heh seemed pretty damn convincing from the start just didn notice the smiley the end the article and there were few other hints which should caught well isn this just hoot all read this group bunch ppl fearing the misuses information the big bad evil govt this just happens case ordinary joe netter who decided that would create and distribute some misinformation ppl buy into posts like this know because forwarded copy the post office mate who turned around and was although won admit sorry joe ready get fight about please going hold our govt which admittedly has had and still has its problems high standards then mustn follow these too electronic freedoms only far again extremely sorry about this got this message several months ago quite bit before the clipper chip proposal when was posted different newsgroup was very startling well and guess should verified the source least some extent before reposting aaack marc
sci.crypt	screw the people crypto for hard core hackers spooks only jfc athena mit edu john carr writes pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger writes well not lawyer but from what can tell this completely and utterly untrue the does not have official secrets act have laws that will punish you for revealing what classified information you learned your capacity government official contractor etc and have laws that prohibit stealing such information however they sell you the chip can see that they can make reverse engineering and revealing the details illegal most cases information you come properly yours use you wish but there are certainly exceptions you write paper which includes sufficiently detailed information how build nuclear weapon classified understand the law nuclear weapons design automatically classified even you the work yourself believe you are then not allowed read your own paper what about the precedent which nuclear weapons information was published the progressive was under the impression that the court held that prior restraint could not used any lawyers out there perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer monde lui meme
sci.crypt	this overreaction jhan debra dgbt doc jerry han writes one the happily sleeping people would just like ask this aren people just slightly overreacting this are all sudden going draw parallels nazi germany and communist russia the point the matter that yes this serious problem but not the end the world guess what doing something now you can communist country nazi germany complaining about rather you complaining about and nobody shooting would like keep that way thats the point reacting strongly and forcefully now will assure that continue remain free you cannot overreact threat like this the worst that happens overreact that waste time and effort the worst that happens underreact tyranny prefer overreaction myself guess what people you live one the few countries the world where person can complain without getting shot doesn that tell you how precious and hard maintain freedom only through centuries overreaction have managed maintain ourselves this state even moderate freedom suggest that overreacting now and the future good thing perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer monde lui meme
sci.crypt	how make the clipper chip and wiretapping less bad got idea that would remove most the political complaints have about the clipper chip pass law stating that within year performaing wiretap someone police agency hasn managed convict the suspect the crime the warrant wiretap was for then that agency owes the suspect million repay him her for lost privacy course there are still problems with the technical aspects clipper and with the one size fits all mentality that would behind attempt enforce standard but this would way for those favor allowing continued wiretaps assure that will only used cases where the crime important and the police are all but certain that there really will conviction john elsey
sci.crypt	wiretapping reality today strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes some the messages here seem reflect the view that the government listening everything and one will have hide one clipper messages somehow non escrowed crypto goes away little perspective might order the number court ordered wire taps pretty low law enforcement has present pretty good evidence get even that limited number authorizations thus the overwhelming majority conversations are neither tapped nor recorded the government and for that happen they have have pretty good reason with evidence use this sparingly highest priority pretty good reasons though the system may imperfect long way from the horror stories some here seem believe anticipate david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy our information errors and omissions excepted again have the trust government problem here members sternlight generation trust the government degree which members generation find ridiculous would suggest that sternlight read about the cointelpro program about edgar hoover about the wire tapping martin luther king then after has digested this information can ponder the fact that while the government does not tap every conversation that they have record tapping many conversations that they have right even under their own laws given the long history members the government ignoring the laws that apply them wonder that many people here sound paranoid and given the fact that often difficult impossible punish these individuals once they are discovered wonder that many people here have little faith the escrow proposal for clipper jamie jamison
sci.crypt	pseudocollisions following short note commenting den boer and bosselaers recent work the message digest algorithm feel free email questions further comments burt kaliski rsa laboratories documentstyle article begin document title pseudocollisions the message digest algorithm author burton kaliski burt rsa com and matthew robshaw matt rsa com and rsa laboratories marine parkway redwood city date april maketitle message digest algorithm maps message arbitrary length digest fixed length and has three properties computing the digest easy finding message with given digest inversion hard and finding two messages with the same digest collision also hard message digest algorithms have many applications including digital signatures and message authentication rsa data security message digest algorithm developed ron rivest cite rfc maps message bit message digest computing the digest one megabyte message takes little second while message digest algorithm can yet proved secure believed least good any other that maps bit digest inversion should take about operations and collision should take about operations one has found faster approach inversion collision recent work den boer and bosselaers cite den boer presents special kind pseudocollision internal compression function which maps bit message block and bit input state bit output state they show how find message block and two related input states and that yield the same output state their well thought approach exploits structural properties the collision function find pseudocollision about operations much less than one would expect practical implications this pseudocollision work the security are not evident while real collision implies pseudocollision pseudo inversion pseudocollision need not imply real collision indeed real collision since involves two different messages would almost always involve different message blocks and such that but the pseudocollisions have the same message blocks moreover the input states and would generally unrelated but the pseudocollisions input states are the same except for four bits there does not seem any way extend den boer and bosselaers approach anything beyond the special pseudocollisions limitation they readily admit reasonable therefore believe that remains secure while den boer and bosselaers have found interesting structural properties the properties seem only lead special pseudocollisions and not anything approaching real collisions further research course will give better understanding the strengths and other message digest algorithms with the eventual hope that such algorithms can some sense proved secure bibliographystyle plain begin thebibliography bibitem den boer bert den boer and antoon bosselaers newblock collisions for the compression function newblock advances cryptology eurocrypt newblock preprint bibitem rfc rivest newblock rfc the message digest algorithm newblock internet activities board april end thebibliography end document
sci.crypt	suggestions for escrow agencies was more technical details article strnlghtc ybka netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight brings the issue how the escrow agent will paid and the fact that the government had financial leverage they don cooperate important issue especially one the escrow agents decides they rather stop offering the service assume that the escrow agent isn the government then the contract for providing escrow service would include some termination clause like returning the keys the easiest way user fee for each clipper chip manufactured this makes the funding separate from government but who the user paying the fees here and what the service the user the government then the funding not separate from the government the user the buyer what the service keeping the key for thanks don need and won buy their service not telling everybody key sounds like blackmail the user the manufacturer does the user have choice about buying the alternative just generate the key and not escrow which fine certainly pay more for this kind key than escrowed key face the escrow provider providing service the users don want the only people who want are the government not the users what you really talking about either the government paying for the service front per year either from general taxes from special direct tax wiretap chips indirect tax forcing the manufacturer pay the fee the escrow agent hope the escrow people have way finding out your name from your serial number especially the escrow government agency here new jersey have lots people willing provide that sort services for user fees there are people willing keep your store from burning down for small monthly fee though sometimes people refuse pay and discover that the service really was effective you baseball game yankee stadium there are people who will watch your car the parking lot for small user fee something could scratch the paint after all and what shame your clipper key got out pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com bell labs holmdel from new jersey only work cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	how make the clipper chip and wiretapping less bad what the reason for the push clipper two days after the lead story here the mercury times murky news there was another article industrial espionage the french someone had said what can hurt allow the government have continued access our communications they already have the problem that yes the have access and probably more than realize the government wants exclusive access communications intercept here the united states cutting out other access detrimental the national security also doubt that certain letter agency that originated the encryption algorithm and the chip designs needs have anything with the escrow system continue their intercept effort better yet who owns the company doing the programming
sci.crypt	what would happen export restrictions violated article apr yuma acns colostate edu holland colostate edu douglas craig holland writes heard lot talk about the nsa infamous control over encryption export through the itar here question say develop this great new encryption system and want sell software worldwide the thought police then come and say this algorithm threat national security you will not permitted export this point what kind trouble could get into ignored the itar and sold program international customers anyway first all not the thought police the export police you move overseas with your great thoughts your head write the software there and then sell the thought police probably can too much about though you might want check with your lawyer first however you write the program here and sell furriners you are now international arms dealer and can get thrown the clink for many years especially they decide you good example and cuban drug dealers and fanatic middle eastern terrorists buy your stuff definitions public domain are different for itar purposes you got good enough lawyer who your case for free after they confiscated everything you own evidence you might win but nobody wants first since the stakes are quite high pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com bell labs holmdel from new jersey only work cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	new encryption algorithm article artmel well artmel well arthur melnick writes are strongly opposed the clipper capstone chips press release today our president stephen bryen stated seems the government has unlimited source funds use push its new bugged chips the american public but not understand how the national security agency which not supposed involved domestic spying can fund the development commercial chip intended accommodate government domestic spying activities well actually this one easy their job the nsa supposed develop cryptosystems the government chooses ahead and sell those cryptosystems the masses this sounds lot like slamming the competition not cry for justice these guys are way out limb read that right they commited their new algorithm silicon before been made public what are they gonna shamir writes paper showing how crack the entire class algorithms minutes with slide rule and pencil they weren busy throwing muck smear their competitors feel kinda sorry for still little andrew
sci.crypt	once tapped your code good any more article apr leland stanford edu arc leland stanford edu andrew richard conway writes must protest your communist country how you know there haven been any and are unlikely ever any some socialist dictatorships you can whilst some socialist democracies such france australia you can course some people may disagree about france australia being socialist rather you complaining about and nobody shooting yet guess what people you live one the few countries the world where person can complain without getting shot some circumstances was public meeting last night the usa where protester who was very nice and calm and just said before the speaker started beware his opinions was forced out the meeting two armed policemen there are lot things that one cannot the usa you may not notice them but australian visitor notice them course don over react but don under react thank you andrew not only for the firm rebuttal but for understanding the difference between communism and socialism even though this off topic why people just not understand that just because all those pretty songs about the land the free and sound nice that they may not true take off those rose colored glasses and get clue use two the better cliches around thanks you again jamie
sci.crypt	the escrow database article strnlghtc inf netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes article tcmayc netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy may writes after the waco massacre and the big brother wiretap chip any tactic fair this pernicious nonsense david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy since the fbi account what happened being contradicted increasingly frequent basis other officials investigating the fire the most pernicious idea all believing that big brother going well behaved with respect cryptographic keys light the very serious allegations with respect the doj selling software various other intelligence services what you suppose the chances are some future doj selling escrowed keys business firms trusting the government honest and fair putting the fox charge protecting the chickens clayton cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer opinions all mine relations between people mutual consent not all
sci.crypt	once they get your keys about people far have asked once the fbi gets your clipper keys won they able read all your future and past traffic there has been response from nist nsa denning hellman anyone else who might able give authoritative answer this troubling didn nsa think about this feature and they thought wouldn notice would have thought that now they would have responded with something the form well that won problem because very curious lynn grant
sci.crypt	wiretapping reality today article vouinn shelley washington edu niteowl stein washington edu jamie jamison writes again have the trust government problem here members sternlight generation trust the government degree which members generation find ridiculous would suggest that sternlight read about the cointelpro program about edgar hoover about you should read the history was hoover who stopped nixon cointelpro dead its tracks because said was unconstitutional they tried get around him every way they could despite other things may have done for this alone hoover saved the constitution david david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	once tapped please restrict your followups however valuable this discussion does not belong comp org acm comp org ieee please edit your followups include only the appropriate newsgroups edward reid greensboro titipu resun com nosc blkhole looking for programming contracts especially unisys series
sci.crypt	once they get your keys article dockmaster ncsc mil grant dockmaster ncsc mil lynn grant writes about people far have asked once the fbi gets your clipper keys won they able read all your future and past traffic there has been response from nist nsa denning hellman anyone else who might able give authoritative answer this troubling the proposal could modified that they get court order tap you and don charge you with crime within say days they have buy you new phone they charge you and you are found innocent they have buy you new phone david david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	crypto papers the net article mizzou missouri edu mizzou missouri edu john kelsey writes recently been reading paper merkle publixhed only the net think discussing three potential replacements for des was anyting ever done with these are khufu khafre and snefru still being discussed anywhere know snefru referenced the rsa faq and think may also the sci crypt faq related topic can anyone point toward good sites find papers articles discussions cryptology think about exhausted the math sci library here which doesn seem have anything more recent than about thanks john kelsey khufu and khafre are both patented biham and shamir showed that differential cryptanalysis can break round khafre with chosen plaintext attack using different encryptions khafre with rounds can broken with the same attack using different encryptions there are probably more efficient differential cryptanalytic attacks someone wants take the time look khufu has key dependent boxes and immune differential cryptanalysis source code for this algorithm and khafre are the patent snefru public domain one way hash function the version snefru that produces bit hash vulnerable differential cryptanalysis vulnerable means that the attack more efficient that brute force for four passes less given that sha and are much more efficient yes anyone interested licensing the patent should contact dave petre director patent licencing for xerox bruce
sci.crypt	once they get your keys alt security clipper added keep them informed this issue david sternlight strnlght netcom com wrote the proposal could modified that they get court order tap you and don charge you with crime within say days they have buy you new phone they charge you and you are found innocent they have buy you new phone yes but will they buy you ticket time machine allow you back and use the phone with the new key instead the phone whose key they obtained unclear whether obtaining the key time also unlocks messages recorded whomever earlier times the announcement was silent this the betting seems that once your key has been obtained the authorities divorce lawyers the mafia the fbi lost stolen backup tapes the nsa etc all previous conversations are unsecure session keys are negotiated but knowing the private key believed many commentators here break the security doubt more details will emerge the loss key whether one guilty innocent may mean lot more than merely replacing the phone sort like saying someone copied your diary but buy you new one and the system made mandatory expect will make such storing conversations much easier fear for one thing the transmission the escrow key field acts clear signal anyone listening kind caller and callee grand scale also the phone companies may not care much about protecting the privacy the calls they perceive them all useless encrypted junk this bit reach know suggesting that the clipper will make security more lax anyway still lots issues unresolved tim may timothy may crypto anarchy encryption digital money tcmay netcom com anonymous networks digital pseudonyms zero knowledge reputations information markets aptos black markets collapse governments higher power public key pgp and mailsafe available
sci.crypt	this overreaction perry metzger pmetzger snark shearson com wrote would like keep that way thats the point reacting strongly and forcefully now will assure that continue remain free you cannot overreact threat like this the worst that happens overreact that waste time and effort the worst that happens underreact tyranny prefer overreaction myself only through centuries overreaction have managed maintain ourselves this state even moderate freedom suggest that overreacting now and the future good thing perry right target here careful analysis the clipper chip announcement reveals that not likely remain voluntary for very long the cost the system the cost generating and then storing the escrow keys and the admitted security holes pretty much make the clipperphone loser strong crypto will outcompete strong crypto allowed this the battle face had rumblings this totalitarian key registration thing while back and now the other shoe has dropped the firestorm commentary and criticism this time around reveals the almost immediate revulsion this wiretap chip and automatic caller and callee don forget generates everyone almost everyone who hears about this battle can afford lose tim may timothy may crypto anarchy encryption digital money tcmay netcom com anonymous networks digital pseudonyms zero knowledge reputations information markets aptos black markets collapse governments higher power public key pgp and mailsafe available
sci.crypt	clipper considered harmful restated and amplified article apr lehman com pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger writes you obviously haven read the information about the system the chips put out serial number infomation into the cypher stream allow themselves identified the system does not rely registering people owning particular phone units against the proposal but lets accurate our objections not presume tell what have and have not read the system may not rely upon registering people owning particular phone units but necessary know which phone units are likely used for some suspected criminal communication before you can obtain their unit keys from escrow this necessity raises the stakes favor criminal coercing colluding use some other person clipper phone will restate assumptions more explicitly and amplify argument the original title perhaps should have been distinction between legal and illegal cipher systems considered harmful but clipper considered harmful not inaccurate and more eye catching the current context assumptions clipper made available laws are passed make use cipher systems other than clipper illegal either radio systems any common carrier system these laws also include enforcement authority listen across the relevant radio spectrum other medium characterize signals validate clipper wrappers detect probable use non clipper ciphers and make such detection cause for further action for escrowed keys useful some specific clipper chip must associated with suspected criminal this means that minimum some association between the common carrier unique phone esn and the clipper chip serial number will stored government database observed pairing and esn other than the one recorded raises red flag reduce ordinary fraud the cellphone system which offers clipper will also constructed with esn mechanism much more tamper proof and much less spoofable than today cellphones criminals want inscrutable communications some criminals are not entirely stupid ignorant and will figure out both that clipper cellphones offer excellent security normal circumstances and that they offer security against law enforcement once presumably legitimate wiretap order exists they will also figure out that the wiretap order must necessarily against specific cellphone because each one has unique unit key criminals not want call attention themselves because they are not stupid ignorant because they read netnews and because they know that their open use non clipper cipher likely detected they will generally avoid using non clipper ciphers directly some monitorable tappable channel they know that would raise red flag putting given cellphone not given person under immediate suspicion impractical reverse engineer skipjack discover family key and construct functional clone clipper chip and will very difficult spoof given clipper phone without immediate detection because difficult obscure one association specific phone reprogramming changing chips around the criminal will motivated find intact phone which associated with someone else non stupid criminal will conclude that they can have clipper secure communications least for some limited time they buy beg borrow steal use someone phone way that prevents that person from reporting compromise the phone for least time the encrypted communications might have been recorded and thus retrievable later but the criminal can delay and quite likely evade discovery destroying abandoning the phone before elapses would unusual for innocent person volunteer use their clipper phone someone else the honest subscriber doesn want pay someone else bill and doesn want fall under suspicion this leaves two sources clipper phones for criminal use coercion and collusion coercion first theft bears relatively low risk but also sometimes low time until detection few minutes phone stolen from car parked front store couple weeks phone stolen from someone who away vacation criminal commerce likely arise stolen clipper phones with phones coming from risk inured poor criminals and cash coming from risk averse wealthy criminals someone who extraordinarily motivated gain day two undetected communication like terrorist could kill person hold them hostage the limited time before detection that coerced phone useful means that continuing criminal enterprises require continuing supply freshly coerced phones there would also created collusive commerce between relatively wealthy criminals and ignorant don care patsies who need money and who will submit being paid return for subscribing clipper phone service for someone else use criminals will learn that more their advantage coerce use clipper cellphone than apply non clipper cipher normal cellphone they will call much less attention themselves least their stolen phone this way the fact phone use being coerced must first reported before can identified interesting phone and have its keys obtained from escrow clipper also allows extraordinary opportunity for the criminal conceal use super encryption automated full system surveillance mechanism quite feasible across radio bandwidth which knows family key can validate clipper wrappers and esn associations but cannot reveal realtime the use super encryption unless knows all unit keys which are being assured are only made available two separate pieces upon specific wiretap like order whereas criminal use any cipher within normally cleartext medium would stand out criminal use non clipper cipher within clipper medium would very difficult detect even post facto bulk recordings long the association between criminal and specific clipper chip fractured you make use this other cipher illegal per then you can charge the criminal with this you can identify the true criminal using someone else phone but you have evidence help you against whatever traditional crime might have been planning you will not even able detect that unusual encrypted communications are occurring until you identify specific phones and obtain their keys from escrow the gangster and terrorist are thus arguably more not less secure than they were before clipper came along therefore consider clipper harmful because does not provide absolute privacy the honest public against aggressive dishonest government other ciphers are proscribed engenders new types direct criminal threat the honest public provides extraordinarily effective mechanism for criminals hide their use some other cipher making more difficult than ever even gain notice that unusual communications are occurring and that plans for some criminal act might progress other ciphers are proscribed lazy investigators and prosecutors are more likely pursue the easily quantifiable cipher use crime than they are the traditional and directly harmful crimes which key escrow claimed help against other ciphers are proscribed the stage set for witch hunting illegal cipher use because any computer can used cipher machine brad yearwood brad optilink com uunet pyramid optilink brad petaluma
sci.crypt	clipper serial numbers need court order something that one has discussed yet missed the fbi sets wiretap after the court order was handed only this point they can access the line and detect the serial number what happens next does the fbi simply asks for the keys for and since warrant was issued for the line the fbi simply gets what multiple phones are used from the same house the fbi just asks for etc exactly who prevent the fbi from claiming some other serial number was also used over the wirtapped line and get the keys for either second court order for the specific serial key required and have seen indication this the fbi can effectively ask for any pair keys any time the escrow key holders are total fake unrelated issue and when all phones always use the clipper chip how are call transfers going take place michael golan princeton edu
sci.crypt	secret algorithm clipper chip and crypto key escrow nonsense wasn asked larry brien should trust nixon with his keys but whether would well that explains the government has real need spy people who already love big brother the people who are inclined talk back who need watched
sci.crypt	new encryption algorithm well actually this one easy their job the nsa supposed develop cryptosystems the government chooses ahead and sell those cryptosystems the masses but developing cryptosystems which are specificially designed protect the government domestic spying capabilities takes them beyond that mandate into the forbidden field domestic wiretapping
sci.crypt	suggestions for escrow agencies was more technical details the contrary the entire clipper proposal example the government servicing the people the sense the term found the sentence the farmer paid rent bull service his cows
sci.crypt	key registering bodies article naglec netcom com nagle netcom com john nagle writes since the law requires that wiretaps requested the executive branch and approved the judicial branch seems clear that one the key registering bodies should under the control the judicial branch suggest the supreme court regionally the courts appeal more specifically the offices their clerks got better idea give one set the kgb washington embassy and the other set the red chinese
sci.crypt	clipper chip and crypto key esc article apr memex peter memex writes thought was quite difficult record modem session some intermediate point the line maybe they have taken crash course data comms and have unit that demodulates the tones and stores the digital stream for decryption later this would still suffer from the called babt has been stated either here the telecom group that they will not approve equipment that does encryption don know this true not but this would make good test case peter ilieve peter memex you forget the obvious authorised tap then can done the exchange the exchange digital then suspect that you can auto monitor line and pickup the full link therefore syncing piggyback modem the line would not impossible suspect mike mike avon demon
sci.crypt	once tapped your code good any more don think clinton can even understand the technical details the clipper encryption scheme his assurances are value gives them just says what panel experts told him lived the usa would hope those experts were not paid the fill here you favorite letter combination the doctrine plausible deniability one going tell him has back door the nsa will assume has the sense work out for himself they wouldn pushing clinton might even believe the nsa when they tell him for the record doesn have back door and foia request the world will ever find these guys don play that set rules they have their own rule book and you not allowed see that either
sci.crypt	overreacting was once tapped your code good any more jhan debra dgbt doc jerry han writes can people work within the system before trying break examine your history books and find out how many armed revolutions led democratic democratic style governments think you only find one over five thousand years written history that not very good odds may misreading you here are you saying the american revolution wasn good idea because was bad odds kind doubt that any revolution armed otherwise was ever started without vast amounts failed working within system good sign system being not worth preserving would probably that very inability work within productively hopefully misunderstood btw not big fan arms myself
sci.crypt	revised technical summary clipper chip article apr guvax acc georgetown edu denning guvax acc georgetown edu writes each chip includes the following components the skipjack encryption algorithm bit family key that common all chips bit serial number this length subject change bit secret key that unlocks all messages encrypted with the chip see how the chip used imagine that embedded the telephone security device will suppose call someone and both have such device after pushing button start secure conversation security device will negotiate bit session key with the device the other end this key negotiation takes place without the clipper chip general any method key exchange can used such the diffie hellman public key distribution method once the session key established the clipper chip used encrypt the conversation message stream digitized voice the telephone security device feeds and into the chip produce two values the encrypted message stream and law enforcement field which are transmitted over the telephone line the law enforcement field thus contains the session key encrypted under the unit key concatenated with the serial number all encrypted under the family key the law enforcement field decrypted law enforcement after authorized wiretap has been installed the used the law enforcement field from the phone which placed the call from the unit whose start secure session button was pressed first does each phone transmit its own law enforcement field even assuming one the first two choices the fbi going get fresh for its own database about every other phone call eventually accumulating keys for all the phones used connect the line they are monitoring not just the suspects key assuming the ever thrifty fbi doesn forget each key after its wiretap permission has expired not quite pyramid but not bad either carl ijames ijames helix nih gov more worried every day
sci.crypt	once tapped your code good any more article apr leland stanford edu arc leland stanford edu andrew richard conway writes course don over react but don under react better yet act john john luther anybody who mistakes jluther umr edu best for email opinions for umr just compuserve com doesn know umr
sci.crypt	the escrow database and the fox has rabies too dave feustel myi feustel netcom com sig being revised
sci.crypt	wiretapping reality today begin pgp signed message article strnlghtc wkh netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes the number court ordered wire taps pretty low law enforcement has present pretty good evidence get even that limited number authorizations thus the overwhelming majority conversations are neither tapped nor recorded the government and for that happen they have have pretty good reason with evidence use this sparingly highest priority pretty good reasons david given the proposition the first first paragraph the conclusion the second should read thus the overwhelming majority conversations are neither tapped nor recorded legally the government which completely overturns your argument not see this requires unbelievable degree stupidity naivete your part perhaps time for you own and say which spook agency you work for paul
sci.crypt	this overreaction good points addition would point out that now one the best times fight this political battle with much the opposition disarray fbi director sessions his way out attorney general reno who has only been long enough find the office coffee machine two tries out three and between slow confirmations and clinton saturday night massacre hasn much staff place really get lucky both the above will too busy trying keep their feet from being held the waco fire spend much effort insisting their alleged right spy the american people swear you aren finished yet james kirk iii
sci.crypt	trademark violation claimed forwarded from libernet dartmouth edu date tue apr pdt from ald clipper clipper ingr com date subject clipper chip not libernet dartmouth edu clipper chip registered trademark intergraph corp the called clipper chip which was recently mentioned here and other media with respect encryption being used violation that trademark the intergraph clipper chip unix microprocessor originally developed fairchild semiconductors and has relationship the encryption chip whatsoever mention this here with the hope that someone reading this will intercede before the group alt privacy clipper established date
sci.crypt	encryption chip availibility article ofpppcs iuy andrew cmu edu stephen ludwick andrew cmu edu says everybody does anyone know companies that are currently manufacturing encryption chips for sale the general public get them while you can some pointers would greatly appreciated thanks steve believe fisher international makers the watchdog security package offers hardware implementation des add that package
sci.crypt	jerry berman pseudonymous privacy hello all thought you all might like see this letter from jerry berman david chaum from november response information that chaum sent berman while have congratulate eff for its prompt response the clipper chip announcement from the white house think important recognize the philosophy their executive director explained below agree that legal remedies are important but when pressed prefer retain the ability use purely technical solutions preserve privacy because they hold under fire chaum has consented the publication this letter the net don work for nor member eff aclu any similar organizations but agree with them great many things aristophanes american civil liberties union washington office maryland avenue november washington national headquarters david chaum west street centre for mathematics and computer science new york box amsterdam norman dorsen president dear chaum ira glasser executive director eleanor holmes norton chair national advisory council thank you for sending most interesting article society individuals and organizations that would expend the time and resources use series digital pseudonyms avoid data linkage does not opinion make big brother obsolete but acts the assumption that big brother ever present view your system form societal paranoia matter principle are working enact formal legal protections for individual privacy rather than relying technical solutions want assume society law which respects legal limits rather than society that will disobey the law requiring citizens depend technical solutions require judical warrant for government interception data communications rather than encrypt all messages the assumption that regardless the lawt the government will abuse its power and invade privacy matter practicality not think your system offers much hope for privacy first the trend toward universal identifiers much movement generated government industry desire keep track all citizens citizens seeking simplicity and convenience all transactions best your system would benefit the sophisticated and most would opt for simplicity the poor and the undereducated would never use benefit from finally where there will there way government wants link data bases will law require the disclosure various individual pseudonyms used citizens prohibit for data bases which the government wants link since corporations make money trading commercial lists with one another they will never adopt the system adopted will use fine printn contracts permit selling various codes used their customers other firms the solution remains law policy and consensus about limits government corporate intrusion into areas individual autonomy technique can used enforce that consensus override cannot used substitute for such consensus sincerely yours sig jerry berman chief legislative counsel direrector aclu privacy technology project john shattuck
sci.crypt	information mathematics cryptography followup posted informational request about any electronically available articles cryptographic algorithms couple days ago mentioned was interested particular des and public key but also wouldn mind learning about others said can read intro graduate level text book having had some mathematics though not much number theory per like see the technical details the mathematics cryptography oppossed the popularizations things like scientific which just say then you find really big prime number following request several people were kind suggest reading lists which hope get around two other people were very kind send large documents which presume were actual articles about lines each but stupidly deleted them accidentally before having chance even skim them they can forgive for careless use file commands would the original senders kind resend anyone else who has good crypto articles fairly technical mathematical level also ftp able gopher able docs would nice know about yours lulu this message was brought you postmodern enterprises quilty philos umass edu the opinions expressed here must those employer surely you don think that believe them
sci.crypt	off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was corporate acceptance the wiretap chip russell arussell austin ibm com wrote the company worked for previously received file that was des encryped and the person that had sent went vaction rather than wait two weeks set straight frontal attack with one key time only took two days crack the file don have any faith des then was either really good luck you had some very fast machine des has possible keys each two which are simply convert into each other you have expect trial encryptions the mean case assuming known plaintext you must have managed encryptions per microsecond infosys builds very fast des chip that manages encryptions per microsecond yes not very seriously bothered about the security des yet though you might prefer use triple des idea both which use more key bits joerg joerg czeranski email czeranski clausthal osteroeder strasse smtp injc clausthal zellerfeld voice work germany voice home obtain pgp public key finger injc sun clausthal email
sci.crypt	rush limbaugh address oops from before think this didn get posted before been reading usenet for the longest time but never had much interest posting until recently this what typed before have written limbaugh before and loathe use the name rush association with him because unworthy have name common with some the greatest musicians our time the band rush his address some you wanted compuserve com has been wrapped himself respond but maybe some you will have better luck bye bye for now tree andy novak anovak titan ucs umass edu anovak twain ucs umass edu bye for now tree andy novak anovak titan ucs umass edu anovak twain ucs umass edu
sci.crypt	jerry berman pseudonymous privacy nobody alumni cco caltech edu correctly states jerry berman view privacy but mistakenly assumes that this represents berman view eff executive director one the people who convinced jerry that legal protections for privacy are insufficient and that technical measures especially public key cryptography are also vitally necessary can tell you that jerry and eff are fully committed this position the previous poster apparently unaware long series eff positions support this view suggest those interested read eff position clipper our other work digital privacy check ftp eff org for more details one the great things about human beings that they are capable change and evolution their thinking the idea that crypto critical privacy one which longer limited certain net afficianados but spreading parts the public policy community washington mitch kapor founder eff
sci.crypt	clipper considered harmful article mizzou missouri edu mizzou missouri edu john kelsey writes the clipper chip user key formed why the triple encrytion used just gain effective increase keyspace defeat potential keysearch why use bit keys not knowing anything about the skipjack algorithm not really possible guess whether this makes harder easier guess why are and formed they are would facinating see the skipjack algorithm look for ways attacking that require three ciphertext blocks formed that odd way where the bit constant values that are concatenated with the serial number form come from are they changed from chip chip session session even they published the times skipjack resistant known plaintext attacks when using triple encryption then there break security but why allow that kind weird format those three bit values are truly random bits then maybe used ensure that known plaintext attack skipjack exists can easily used derive and for whole production run these chips can answer all our questions detail but can take stab them the form the operations that compute and course the famous triple encryption suggested for use with des much stronger than single encryption and has effective key length bits for reasons that were discussed when des was first standardized simple double encryption would not have the same strength triple encryption has been used ibm since more less the beginning encrypt other keys recommended for anything very high value and think can agree that the and fit that description why and well you need different plaintext values have idea they disclosed not guess they constructed that they differ many bit positions possible goo cryptosystem will scramble things lot with even bit change but the values series will have fairly similar bit patterns and there might conceivably weakness the values are and guessing chosen increase the hamming distance any event quite convinced that one cannot back the from the let alone observe the nsa has they don need find but even they they can get and theory they should never even see those values even with warrant the real question think why use this scheme all opposed hardware random number generator answer that this much more verifiable look suppose that nsa nist the aclu the eff and the nra combined build really good random number generator and that passed every test you could think when you come back next week program some more chips does still work that well have any components changed value have the components been changed out from under you does still work well the the presence focused microwave beam that tends bias towards selecting bits yes you can run detailed statistical tests again but that hard consider the other hand software solution you bring your own floppies with you you can run cryptographic checksums etc lot easier verify that the software unchanged other words yes can think ways cheat software too think that they lot harder there are three issues with clipper the first whether not the architecture the whole scheme capable working answer with one significant exception yes really think that nsa and nist have designed this scheme about well can assuming that their real objectives are stated permit wiretapping under certain carefully controlled circumstances with minimum risk abuse the exception that exists outside the chip programming diskette that seriously wrong and should loaded onto the chip separately those who disagree and don claim answer obvious though found own reasoning sufficiently persuasive that was forced rewrite the conclusions section technical analysis paper had originally blasted the scheme issue this invitation assume that you were charged with implementing such system with complete regard for civil rights and due process what would you differently answering this question please accept nsa fundamental assumptions that both strong cryptography against outsiders and the ability wiretap some domestic users necessary you feel necessary challenge those assumptions the context the last issue present below right here discussing just the technical aspects and don any means claim that just because something can done should the second issue whether not this whole architecture actually going used just because clipper chips are made this way doesn mean that that the only way they made maybe the nsa will substitute its own chips between the programming facility and the shipping dock and they generate bogus warrant requests that the escrow agents don wonder why they never called sorry guys all them terrorists and drug dealers and pedophiles seem have bought triple des phones instead who thunk have answer this question and the moment don see way answering those concerns are part reasoning answer the final question below the third and most serious issue whether not clipper good idea even carried out strictly according the letter the law think that the answer but not brainer civil libertarian not libertarian for reasons that explained great length the net the elder days and that don have the energy repeat now but that means that willing accept that some laws are necessary long they respect the essential rights individuals the government already has the ability and our system the right issue search warrants and while that power has certainly been abused also been used quite properly and fairly other cases key escrow sufficiently different think but again not easy question for easy for libertarians answer course since clipper completely alien much the rest their oft admirable philosophy and also easy for those who give their unreserved trust government group much more distant from steve bellovin
sci.crypt	 article access digex net steve access digex com writes the only theory that makes any sense that and are either the same for all chips vary among very few possibilities that anyone trying break the encryption brute force need only plow through the possible serial numbers about one billion multiplied the number different combinations iff the phones transmit their serial nos part the message then what say that each phone can take that serial number and use generate the required key
sci.crypt	once they get your keys article dockmaster ncsc mil grant dockmaster ncsc mil lynn grant writes about people far have asked once the fbi gets your clipper keys won they able read all your future and past traffic there has been response from nist nsa denning hellman anyone else who might able give authoritative answer this troubling didn nsa think about this feature and they thought wouldn notice would have thought that now they would have responded with something the form well that won problem because don alvarez posted good partial solution this problem comp risks present variant instead since feel bit stronger against some likely attempts cheat depends the protocol that followed for reading traffic briefly the cops get wiretap warrant and record the call they then notice the encryption and the disclosure header along with copy their warrant sent the fbi whoever who holds the family key the holder decrypts the header and sends the serial number and the encrypted session key the escrow agents they turn use and recover and send that the local police note how this solves the problem wiretapping forever neither the cops nor the fbi ever see they can read other traffic every request must validated both the fbi and the escrow agents the cops and the fbi together can cheat since they don have regard that likely pairing folks who might try beat the system prevent this that modified alvarez scheme the escrow agents can read the conversation since they don have all they have and and the police don even see harder see how block decryption old warrantless wiretaps there one protection you have persuade the escrow agents that the call current but that not nearly strong there are approaches can see that might work involving sequences data unalterable medium complete with cryptographic protection against insertion onto new medium but don have anything yet that isn too complex for comfort too hard install the real world the nsa might have answer they may may not smarter than but been working this for week and they had years
sci.crypt	clipper considered harmful restated and amplified brad yearwood posts long response the issue registering phone clipper relationship doesn wash recall that law enforcement gets court order tap suspect phone calls they what they now figure out which lines tap they then record the stuff clipper they read the law enforcement block extract the serial number and get the keys using the court order new difficulties such using someone else phone instrument phone line are introduced that wouldn have existed absent clipper the crooks were going use pay phone say they could have done without clipper the government figures out they doing they listen and clipper conversation they get the serial number and then the keys the crooks use innocent person clipper phone the tapped line there problem the feds don care whose phone instrument used just that the conversation the suspect the tapped line they get the serial number get the keys and they are business clipper chip person association ever needed david david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	secret algorithm clipper chip and crypto key escrow article rae access digex net steve access digex com steve brinich writes nonsense wasn asked larry brien should trust nixon with his keys but whether would well that explains the government has real need spy people who already love big brother the people who are inclined talk back who need watched though think this overstatement does contain grain truth drug dealers spies terrorists and organized crime figures assuming enough probable cause convince judge who need watched not law abiding citizens david david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	back doors clipper think very unlikely there are back doors clipper for two reasons the government doesn need them can get the key and yes assume that the official government obeys court orders etc and that the design the chip and its approval were official would defeat the whole purpose providing secure crypto for american business that couldn read our economic adversaries this were not legitimate and genuine purpose and many think the nsa can read des why bother otherwise rational responses preferred conspiracy theories thanks david david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	clipper serial numbers need court order article apr princeton edu princeton edu michael golan writes something that one has discussed yet missed the fbi sets wiretap after the court order was handed only this point they can access the line and detect the serial number what happens next does the fbi simply asks for the keys for and since warrant was issued for the line the fbi simply gets what multiple phones are used from the same house the fbi just asks for etc exactly who prevent the fbi from claiming some other serial number was also used over the wirtapped line and get the keys for either second court order for the specific serial key required and have seen indication this the fbi can effectively ask for any pair keys any time the escrow key holders are total fake two safeguards the fbi could asked produce the law enforcement block the escrow agencies and associate with particular court order the thing comes trial the defense attorneys can probe this issue closely not too different from proving that the speaker legal wiretap the person the court order covered putting another way this question not very different from the pre clipper question what prevent the fbi from getting court order tap capone and then using tap jonathan livingstone seagull instead david david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	once they get your keys article tcmayc netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy may writes alt security clipper added keep them informed this issue david sternlight strnlght netcom com wrote the proposal could modified that they get court order tap you and don charge you with crime within say days they have buy you new phone they charge you and you are found innocent they have buy you new phone yes but will they buy you ticket time machine allow you back and use the phone with the new key instead the phone whose key they obtained unclear whether obtaining the key time also unlocks messages recorded whomever earlier times the announcement was silent this the betting seems that once your key has been obtained the authorities divorce lawyers the mafia the fbi lost stolen backup tapes the nsa etc all previous conversations are unsecure session keys are negotiated but knowing the private key believed many commentators here break the security doubt more details will emerge doesn matter assume they are obeying the law since they won have had court order tap calls prior the date the court order and thus won have them available they aren obeying the law are entirely different discussion which this the least one worries david david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	once they get your keys article dockmaster ncsc mil grant dockmaster ncsc mil lynn grant writes about people far have asked once the fbi gets your clipper keys won they able read all your future and past traffic there has been response from nist nsa denning hellman anyone else who might able give authoritative answer this troubling was implied the first technical posting dorothy denning that the fbi would the decryption for the law enforcement agencies wasn clear from the post whether this would done realtime not whether the fbi would just decrypt the session keys for the locals would the whole message one thing bit puzzled why aren they doing this with public key scheme some sort you could generate two uniqe public private pairsor for each chip then escrow the private keys with the escrow agencies set the protocol encrypt the session key with both public keys decrypt message both escrow agencies the right order for most schemes have decrypt with the escrowed private key this way there wouldn thecconcern that once the police had asked warrant wiretap they would have your key forver john kelsey
sci.crypt	what would happen export restrictions violated article apr yuma acns colostate edu holland colostate edu douglas craig holland writes this point what kind trouble could get into ignored the itar and sold program international customers anyway not sure has been established that the government can prevent you from sending algorithm abroad the nsa seems have won intimidation far why don you try course you could just distribute your algorithm widely for free and screw them big time that would approach smg
sci.crypt	overreacting was once tapped your code good any more article fplpdh bwwbedwenj transarc com lyle seaman transarc com writes jhan debra dgbt doc jerry han writes somebody asked what was wrong about overreacting cases such this that was probably meant only that nobody has overreacted yet seemed that jerry was suggesting that people are currently overreacting and vehemently disagree see lot talk but not much action see now that misunderstood jerry position the reason very simple how many people you want die riot new civil war everybody jumping and down and screaming about and worried that people are going reach for their hammers and rifles before their pens and paper not this bunch they just bitch the net for while and then back lurking can people work within the system before trying break examine your history books and find out how many armed revolutions led democratic democratic style governments think you only find one over five thousand years written history actually not quite that bad but close think everyone would just soon work within the system the presence the possibility using the bullet box instead the ballot box supposed deterrent keeping the price massive abuse unacceptable however governments being what they are sure would like remove that deterrence which will make the need for armed citizens all the more great you don need till you don have then think can more accurately called subjects instead citizens the idea the people being sovereign over the government sure not vogue the beltway these days that for sure the administration saying know best will tell you what you need don need after that old fashioned anachronism called the bill rights not needed these enlightened times look collectively have the power throw the bums out but don use clearly don need burning things down but not the government has its way there are eight bills before congress that will either ban tax exhorbitantly register all useful weapons the hands the unconnected subject can you say just for box cartridges for practice one the current administrations top priority items disarm all who are not well connected that work for the government clearly need throw least some the bums out unfortunately the bums have learned target only small groups people single time the masses won react and throw them out eventually the masses will react unless the bums cease their relentless encroachment liberty and despoilment the economy the sooner happens the less the damages will don want live war zone either want see the bums thrown out before they some real damage another tactic toss out many outrages once that nobody can give justice them all like being done right now lyle transarc grant street the gulf tower pittsburgh pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	clipper considered harmful steve bellovin writes well thought out and nearly persuasive article about why the clipper are still calling clipper today have they figured out non infringing word yet protocol almost good one can given their marching ordes article apr ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes issue this invitation assume that you were charged with implementing such system with complete regard for civil rights and due process what would you differently answering this question please accept nsa fundamental assumptions that both strong cryptography against outsiders and the ability wiretap some domestic users necessary accept the second assumption only for the sake argument view the primary remaining flaw that the encryption algorithm secret leading suspicion that there back door without complete disclosure this suspicion cannot dispelled matter how many trusted experts are allowed look isolation possible this whole thing with public algorithm the only concern seen with making skipjack public that someone could build clipperphones without registering the keys assume can really kept secret the government assumes then part the initial connection clipperphone executes protocol with the pseudophone demonstrate that they both know for example the initiating phone picks number and sends the receiver sends back and the initiator sends back demonstrate that her first packet wasn just random bit block repeat the opposite direction with another can defeated somebody building library sequential numbers remembering responses and using those responses the initial numbers subsequent challenges this way clipperphones will talk only other clipperphones course the pseudo company can build their own proprietary skipjack phone but the presidential fact sheet implies that they won get approval for without equivalent key escrow what wrong with this picture depends staying secret and skipjack being resistant cryptanalysis but the government appears believe both these even the particular suggest has some flaw imagine there zero knowledge proof protocol that doesn smb says the third and most serious issue whether not clipper good idea even carried out strictly according the letter the law agreed view and you can quote not worth doing not worth doing well jim gillogly hevensday thrimidge
sci.crypt	how escrow escrowing were there description something called fair crypto system the may issue byte attributed mit professor silvio micali the way works follows you generate your private key and break into pieces and such that mod you give each piece etc different escrow agency the agencies each compute mod and forward the result the public key telephone book keeper the public key telephone book keeper multiplies all the mod reduces the result mod and this will the user public key now there were several hundered recognized escrow agencies and the user could give piece the key each the ones trusted the result would something improvement over the proposed clipper system still don think key escrow good idea for both philosophical and security reasons but offer this suggestion simply determine whether escrow advocates are all interested considering alternatives good faith whether the goal insure the use only two agencies selected for spinelessness the face official requests
sci.crypt	clipper considered harmful restated and amplified the crooks use innocent person clipper phone the tapped line there problem the feds don care whose phone instrument used just that the conversation the suspect the tapped line they get the serial number get the keys and they are business you admit that clipper opens the doors wide for the following scenario feds need the keys joe blow phone escrow agent joe blow you have warrant tap his line feds well but have warrant tap carlos slime devil gonzales line and our tap shows that gonzales using blow phone escrow agent well
sci.crypt	secret algorithm clipper chip and crypto key escrow though think this overstatement does contain grain truth drug dealers spies terrorists and organized crime figures assuming enough probable cause convince judge who need watched not law abiding citizens don tell tell the feds they not need get clue about this
sci.crypt	clipper considered harmful restated and amplified the crooks use innocent person clipper phone the tapped line there problem the feds don care whose phone instrument used just that the conversation the suspect the tapped line they get the serial number get the keys and they are business clipper chip person association ever needed yeah but who wants start pool the first person arrested mistakenly and has their life turned upside down because some law enforcement agency does make chip person association wonder there are any plans keep these records encode the serial number into the upc scanned mart along with the credit card info voila least your phone number tends only locate your house whatever coming from your telephone number the person likely your house etc plus minus some shenanigans course but hate think these guys getting the clipper recording the conversation then doing quick cross lookup and your name comes owner that mistakenly maybe you sold the phone garage sale the phone was stolen from your car whatever they might only know who one side the conversation for example anyone who thinks the govt forbidden law cross correlate such databases loses two points first law enforcement agencies can course this second they only forbidden from budgeting any money for the irs for example does this anyhow they just don spend any money technically legal guess instead they probably trade little favors with companies like mastercard you the irs bet you have lot opportunities trade favors with major corps for their databases know irs guy read amazing list off from his screen could hear him typing pull each screen once the phone during dispute had with them intimidate actually not much dispute didn particularly disagree but for some reason this fellow wanted play tough guy with hope better now amazing stuff had his finger tips afraid barry shein software tool die bzs world std com uunet world bzs purveyors the trade voice login wrld
sci.crypt	clipper considered harmful restated and amplified strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes the crooks use innocent person clipper phone the tapped line there problem the feds don care whose phone instrument used just that the conversation the suspect the tapped line they get the serial number get the keys and they are business clipper chip person association ever needed celular phones jon
sci.crypt	once they get your keys article tcmayc netcom com tcmay netcom com timothy may writes unclear whether obtaining the key time also unlocks messages recorded whomever earlier times the announcement was silent this the betting seems that once your key has been obtained the authorities divorce lawyers the mafia the fbi lost stolen backup tapes the nsa etc all previous conversations are unsecure session keys are negotiated but knowing the private key believed many commentators here break the security doubt more details will emerge completely clear you have assume that each byte that was encrypted this clipper chip has been compromised some people wondered why denning hellman and others did not respond when asked what would done about such compromised phones compromise could not restricted time did too let just assume that they not know and those who know don tell and they not care seem other person problem gec instruments register only through things they designed register space still contains infinite unknowns pgp key germano caronni caronni nessie ethz ccf
sci.crypt	need the clipper for cheap security pdc dcs paul crowley writes how fast the fastest modems the shannon limit for voice lines likely somewhere around kbps are rapidly approaching the fastest affordable full duplex modems currently the market are bis which bps how far can voice compressed celp manages sound decent bps theory you built speech recognition system that turned voice into ascii and perfect synthesis system the other end that sounded just like the person you were speaking you could get down the information content the speech with various kinds lpc you can get down bps prehaps even less which point sounds horrible bps more than adequite for our purposes perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer monde lui meme
sci.crypt	the secret source that announcement article lerami lerctr org merlin lerami lerctr org david hayes writes this company routinely sent most the manufacturing data the field offices the japanese had simply intercepted friend the computer systems admin came with solution started sending the data out double block encrypted with des two days after this new distribution plan was implemented the president the company got visit from pair government agents they told him knock off the president gave since his company did considerable business with the federal government now the government wasn monitoring the communications how would they even know that the encryption system was installed how can you sure the two visitors were really government agents john john flanagan believe theories johnf uhheph phys hawaii edu they give feeling hawaii dept physics astro security and they inflate correa honolulu ego enormously abian
sci.crypt	tempest whughes lonestar utsa edu william hughes writes hell just set spark jammer some other very electrically noisy device noted you can likely get around that with directional sensor phased array systems could completely defeat this scheme perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer monde lui meme
sci.crypt	clipper and conference calls just curious how would the clipper chip system handle conference calls
sci.crypt	wanted riverbank pub looking for copy friedman riverbank publication methods for the solution running key ciphers agean park press tells that their publication the riverbank publications volume out print can anyone snail mail photocopy someone could would much appreciated regards john king kingj corp com
sci.crypt	screw the people crypto for hard core hackers spooks only article strnlghtc netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes some countries have laws about importing crypto gear believe the does without license the above scheme won work least not legally such countries including least france and the david bzzt wrong the does not have crypto import laws derek derek atkins mit electrical engineering and computer science secretary mit student information processing board sipb mit media laboratory speech research group warlord mit edu asel nwh
sci.crypt	tempest article apr lehman com pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger writes whughes lonestar utsa edu william hughes writes hell just set spark jammer some other very electrically noisy device noted you can likely get around that with directional sensor phased array systems could completely defeat this scheme true but the basic idea behind any communications security system not absolutely deny access but make access more expensive time money manpower than worth remember waco who will the government decide murder next maybe you opinions are mine don care you blame the university the state
sci.crypt	once tapped your code good any more article strnlghtc who netcom com sci crypt alt security comp org ieee strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes maybe but quite common there are millions macintosh users who have idea what apple patented roms many have modems connected how you know all your business secrets aren being stolen answer because you trust apple because any such attempt however sophicsticated came out would destroy apple credibility forever david neither apply with the government though the feds unlike apple have repeatedly demonstrated that trust unsafe thread which hang your freedom why because unlike apple the govt has credibility lose serious about this one can name just about any agency the irs rtc fcc faa fbi nsa cia and find numerous examples the public trust run roughshod over worse one can rarely find such examples any serious consequences the offending agency even supposing could get reign trust somehow there always the matter competence govt agencies can they even trust themselves mel was amused when you mentioned the usda example agency capable managing the escrow consultant the usda and while those work with are wonderful grin the agency itself ranked industry publications such govt computer news one the worst caretakers its computer resources recently prime time live did long segment the usda computer troubles they are making concerted effort change but intentions don make track record mel beckman internet mbeckman mbeckman com beckman software engineering compuserve ventura voice fax you can observe lot just watching yogi bera
sci.crypt	fighting the clipper initiative article strnlghtc toc kiu netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes excuse but since the escrow agencies aren yet chosen how can you say they have history untrustworthy behavoir sic sure each can think agencies without such history price waterhouse has kept the secret the academy awards for many years even damn you dead right that pretty much settles not worry john hesse man jhesse netcom com plan moss beach calif canal bob
sci.crypt	clipper considered harmful restated and amplified article rcboi access digex net steve access digex com steve brinich writes feds need the keys joe blow phone escrow agent joe blow you have warrant tap his line feds well but have warrant tap carlos slime devil gonzales line and our tap shows that gonzales using blow phone escrow agent well will like this feds need the key phone escrow you have warrant tap the line phone feds yes escrow fine here our key what happens feds tap line find clipper being used extract serial number get key decipher convo the serial number never registered specific owner sent part the conversation give you clipper phone you not need register mainly because was never registered the first place there are lot things that bother about clipper but this not one them let get our facts straight and not waste effort demolishing straw men rogue neu edu rogue agent sod the nsa now funding research not only cryptography but all areas advanced mathematics you like circular describing these new research opportunities just pick your phone call your mother and ask for one
sci.crypt	clipper considered harmful article wcs apr rainier att com wcs anchor att com bill stewart writes the other hand can easily see them recording the traffic for interesting people such dissidents suspected criminals foreign telephone calls and anybody noticed using encryption ken shiriff speculates recording encrypted traffic will probably judged not invasion privacy pretty soon read the current wiretap law would not legal now the other hand assuming legislative change recording but not decrypting clipper conversations would probably found constitutional the supreme court using the same reasoning the lack thereof which they permit random roadblocks check for drunk drivers incidentally use that our model the court will likely not uphold selective recording the other hand don think they thrown out drug courier profiles yet must that exception the fourth amendment that can never find copy the bill rights lot and mean lot will depend exactly how clippertaps tipperclaps for encrypted music are used don alvarez showed the latest risks digest that possible prevent the cops from reading traffic after their warrant expires that the cops send the lef the holder the holder strips off and sends the escrow agents they send either the cops don says say the cops can use the future because they can strip off the holder never sees don model the escrow agents can read the traffic because they don have model they have but not the message itself and trust that more because think the cops and the fbi the holder are more likely collaborate breaking the rules the net result that involving the holder and the escrow agents every tap can avoid extending permission tap
sci.crypt	suggestions for escrow agencies was more technical details article strnlghtc ybka netcom com sci crypt alt privacy clipper strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes the easiest way user fee for each clipper chip manufactured this makes the funding separate from government also has the neat side property that the chip doesn catch the scheme breaks down and the government back the drawing boards assuming that they haven prohibited alternatives the meantime fact maybe this should part the official system before the government allowed move this past the experimental stage they should have demonstrate economic viability mass adoption david while disagree strongly with you the issue our trusting the government think you have good idea here there danger that with funding coming from asset forfeitures the government could continue promulgate bad product spite poor acceptance making the product pay its way must for private ventures would good incentive for quality and listening the ranters mel mel beckman internet mbeckman mbeckman com beckman software engineering compuserve ventura voice fax you can observe lot just watching yogi bera
sci.crypt	wiretapping reality today article strnlghtc netcom com sci crypt strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes you should read the history was hoover who stopped nixon cointelpro dead its tracks because said was unconstitutional they tried get around him every way they could unfortunately hoover thought himself above the constitution whatever considered the limits others should obey ruthlessly invaded the privacy many private and public citizens mel mel beckman internet mbeckman mbeckman com beckman software engineering compuserve ventura voice fax you can observe lot just watching yogi bera
sci.crypt	tempest article apr ringer utsa edu whughes lonestar utsa edu william hughes writes article apr lehman com pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger writes whughes lonestar utsa edu william hughes writes hell just set spark jammer some other very electrically noisy device noted you can likely get around that with directional sensor phased array systems could completely defeat this scheme true but the basic idea behind any communications security system not absolutely deny access but make access more expensive time money manpower than worth another idea use laptop computer mentioned earlier the lcd screen lot less noisy than standard crt but since many laptops have power supplies that run volts instead they would considerably quieter doug holland doug holland anyone who tries take away freedom holland colostate edu speech will have pry from pgp key available mail cold dead lips
sci.crypt	clipper serial numbers need court order strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes two safeguards the fbi could asked produce the law enforcement block the escrow agencies and associate with particular court order exactly what would that show the law enforcement block easy create given the government key and any serial number the thing comes trial the defense attorneys can probe this issue closely not too different from proving that the speaker legal wiretap the person the court order covered comes trail about the wiretap some safegaurd that what they just harass people result learn things they shouldn have learned etc putting another way this question not very different from the pre clipper question what prevent the fbi from getting court order tap capone and then using tap jonathan livingstone seagull instead the whole point the escrow system prevent the fbi from making illegal wiretaps why not have the fbi holds the keys and that why need the escrow system all unless party judge verifies that the requested serial number right and the fbi can get any key they like anytime the escrow system useless michael golan princeon edu
sci.crypt	once they get your keys strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes the proposal could modified that they get court order tap you and don charge you with crime within say days they have buy you new phone they charge you and you are found innocent they have buy you new phone yeah right and the atf trashes your place bad tip they have pay repair sure and your computer equipment confisticated raid they have charge you with crime within say days you stretching the naivete bit this one love two minds without single thought philip barry
sci.crypt	have seen the lobby and article apr nynexst com rsilvers nynexst com robert silvers writes send something rush linbaugh about clinton taking away our right privacy and how the govt standard takes off only people with lots money drug dealers will able justify des stuff will slam clinton for this the air well lets for hypothetical put our selves the place the end the drug rings what about the cripple chip first off would express disaproval our congress critters and remind them the large sums money our legitimate provide their campain coffers would also let them know via the other channels that their income about take hit and their health may not too good either but just case the next obvious step take buy mycotoxic and vlsi yeah free enterprise work now they have the cripple their pockets literaly well figurativly tough about the masses though paul
sci.crypt	pgp where get both new this news group and the net facinated the things have heard about the pgp encryption program does anybody out there know where might get version this program that runs under windows dos unix source this writting have unix access and running nifty windows implamentation uucico thanks advance jeff hupp internet jhupp shockwave win net medowglen apt contract programming novell houston texas network design and support voice the best govenment doesn
sci.crypt	dorothy denning opposes clipper capstone wiretap chips the security the system should depend only the secrecy the keys and not the secrecy the algorithms dorothy denning jhart agora rain com
sci.crypt	clipper and conference calls article netnews upenn edu feeley cattell psych upenn edu michael feeley writes just curious how would the clipper chip system handle conference calls not clipper any encryption system seen number designs they generally involve multi line cleartext bridge
sci.crypt	tempest apr ringer utsa edu whughes lonestar utsa edu william hughes writes hell just set spark jammer some other very electrically noisy device build active farrady cage around the room with noise signal piped into while these measures will not totally mask the emissions your equipment they will provide sufficient interference make remote monitoring chancy proposition best there course the consideration that these measures may and almost cretainly will cause certain amount interference your own systems matter balancing security versus convenience the problem that this will also cause certain amount interference all systems within the range the device long time ago built small jammer dissuade brother from using his radio alarm clock something like which had just enough range cover room and his however something powerful enough mask all least most emissions from your computer equipment also going knock out half your neighbourhoods radio and reception this isn going make you many friends incidentally older model trs makes fine wideband jammer grin peter pgut aukuni gutmann aukuni gutmann kosmos wcc govt peterg kcbbs gen peter nacjack gen peter phlarnschlorpht nacjack gen order preference one bound work everything was different before all changed
sci.crypt	crypto papers the net mizzou missouri edu mizzou missouri edu john kelsey writes recently been reading paper merkle publixhed only the net think discussing three potential replacements for des was anyting ever done with these are khufu khafre and snefru still being discussed anywhere know snefru referenced the rsa faq and think may also the sci crypt faq the paper was distributed against the wishes the nsa have copy with few illicit distribution footnotes scribbled and eventually published one the crypto conferences things were looking good then xerox patented the algorithms plonk don know anything which uses them also khafre was broken later conference and from work related algorithm don think the existing khufu would hold too well against converted differential cryptanalysis attack although can probably changed resist this type attack peter case you don know what the plonk about check the new hacker dictionary the sound someone makes when they fall the bottom killfile
sci.crypt	clipper and conference calls article apr ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes article netnews upenn edu feeley cattell psych upenn edu michael feeley writes just curious how would the clipper chip system handle conference calls not clipper any encryption system seen number designs they generally involve multi line cleartext bridge depending the encryption system long everyone has the same key can done for example was using vat which internet audio tool for conference call and were encrypting the session unfortunately one site was doing more work and didn have the cpu for didn sound all that good different site you don neccessarily have have clear text bridge but you its totally internal one the sites involved the conversation derek derek atkins mit electrical engineering and computer science secretary mit student information processing board sipb mit media laboratory speech research group warlord mit edu asel nwh
sci.crypt	new encryption algorithm article raeir access digex net steve access digex com steve brinich writes well actually this one easy their job the nsa supposed develop cryptosystems the government chooses ahead and sell those cryptosystems the masses but developing cryptosystems which are specificially designed protect the government domestic spying capabilities takes them beyond that mandate into the forbidden field domestic wiretapping unlike the cia the nsa has prohibition against domestic spying read bamford the puzzle palace bruce
sci.crypt	let build software cryptophones for over the internet gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes forwarded old posting about celp speech compression since been told that the source this cygnus com pub celp speech tar not position any sun tcp gurus out there who think they can marry this with netfone the end the week seriously think someone with real net access and two sparcs could have this running the end the week then ask the pgp guys add bytestream crypto filter two weeks the most damn wish had sparc back stuck mhz tried this code yesterday sparcstation elc takes over seconds compress seconds worth speech this means that needs optimized over factor before will usable even half duplex mode question whether celp the best approach for this application produces great compression but the expense tremendous cpu loads want something that can run ordinary workstations even high end without dsp cards guess that some other algorithm going better starting point hal finney
sci.crypt	 steve access digex com steve brinich writes second question why why such strange procedure used and not real rng this turns those kind bottleneck for system security the only theory that makes any sense that and are either the same for all chips vary among very few possibilities that anyone trying break the encryption brute force need only plow through the possible serial numbers about one billion multiplied the number different combinations interpretation denning description that and are chosen randomly agents the key escrow companies the start each chip programming session imagine that the chips are carrier which will allow them all programmed fairly quickly there would not need transfer chips one time into little pla programmer some people have envisioned guess why this procedure used that basing the keys the and using specified algorithm provides principle checkable way verify that back doors exist the choice the random numbers used generate the keys since have trust the escrow companies anyway does not weaken the system have the keys generated from random seeds entered the escrow agents and since the algorithm for key generation public modulo skipjack secrecy then principle agent could challenge the procedure ask for and exposed and run his own independent calculation and verify that that what actually being put onto the floppies and yes there are many ways which failures follow this scheme could hard check the laptop probably will not really destroyed each time hidden cameras the ceiling could see the and entered the trusted escrow agents back doors the chip could allow recovered heck each chip could recorded with the same ignoring what was the floppy hal finney
sci.crypt	what would happen export restrictions violated article apr yuma acns colostate edu holland colostate edu douglas craig holland writes heard lot talk about the nsa infamous control over encryption export through the itar here question say develop this great new encryption system and want sell software worldwide the thought police then come and say this algorithm threat national security you will not permitted export this point what kind trouble could get into ignored the itar and sold program international customers anyway doug holland you would arrested international arms trafficker bruce
sci.crypt	have seen the lobby and apr yuma acns colostate edu lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons writes article apr eff org charles gross acg eff org writes certainly with our way cool internet powers organization can act the same way such action appropriate long are kept informed events anyone this bboard can make call action hopefully strong enough community act those calls realize this little optomistic and glad eff working the loop these issues but don underestimate the potential the net for political action adam speak for myself second the motion all favor sounds great but how would something like this done start news group for discussions things like lobbying tecniques and how get non computer geeks pissed off are matthew cline read the letters the editor colum time response article teen suicide people mpcline cats ucsc edu should aware the dangers killing themselves
sci.crypt	new encryption algorithm artmel well arthur melnick writes ever since craig rowland posted his piece new encryption sci crypt there has been some discussion our company secured communications technologies inc and encryption algorithm nea the classic comment new encryption algorithms comes from friedman new cypher worth considering unless comes from someone who has already broken very hard one historically friedman has been right really hard develop good cypher ibm lucifer the precursor des turns out have been fatally flawed most the des like systems other than des seem vulnerable differential cryptanalysis the first two tries public key encryption remember knapsack cyphers were broken most not all the machine cyphers the electromechanical era were broken eventually attempts the computer era home brew encryption have been disappointing the classic survey data insecurity packages cryptologia contains analyses and breaking techniques for few the popular security packages the late new proprietary algorithm way the permitting general export this thing has weak that how the current regulations work currently there willingness allow systems with short keys bits appears problem the bits des are too many weak algorithms think word perfect qualifies under that rule exported can believe these guys shepherded their technique through the pto and the state department arms control division without finding that out john nagle not thrilled with clipper either but that different issue
sci.crypt	tempest article apr ringer utsa edu whughes lonestar utsa edu writes article apr lehman com pmetzger snark shearson com the basic idea behind any communications security system not absolutely deny access but make access more expensive time money manpower than worth true all security sytems think and the fundamental measure used establishing requisite security level owen lewis tele fax eloka consultancy project management oml eloka demon pgp public key request
sci.crypt	let build software cryptophones for over the internet article regq innn gap caltech edu hal cco caltech edu hal finney writes tried this code yesterday sparcstation elc takes over seconds compress seconds worth speech this means that needs optimized over factor before will usable even half duplex mode ouch thanks for trying question whether celp the best approach for this application produces great compression but the expense tremendous cpu loads want something that can run ordinary workstations even high end without dsp cards guess that some other algorithm going better starting point yes not sure xposting comp speech made here too but found that low sample rate samples sec bits per sample plus the shorten lossless sound compression code actually does get speech into with simdgen left over this definitely worth working folks and shorten works well under real time
sci.crypt	clipper considered harmful article apr ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes that the cops send the lef the holder the holder strips off and sends the escrow agents they send either the cops don says say the cops can use the future because they can strip off the holder never sees don model the escrow agents can read the traffic because they don have model they have but not the message itself and trust that more because think the cops and the fbi the holder are more likely collaborate breaking the rules the net result that involving the holder and the escrow agents every tap can avoid extending permission tap been reading this board passively for while now and find the subject absolutely fascinating especially from the point view civil rights nut like myself problem that new the field and paragraphs like the above keep popping sure what bellovin writing about both fascinating and important but have idea what means anyway keen learn and will read anything can get hands that explains this stuff lay terms have decent background but not huge amount hyper advanced math can anyone point faq decent source information about the guts current cryptography and maybe little history well read the piece this month wired can anyone tell how much should trust the references they suggest thanks advance steve steve kramarsky university chicago law school steve faerie chi smk quads uchicago edu all did was kiss girl jake the night before his hanging
sci.crypt	looking for dos crypto programs maddison david wrote new reader sci crypt would like obtain copy public domain program that can encrypt files preferably using des that runs under dos would also like obtain program which will password protect floppy disks this possible thanks david maddison melbourne australia when you find out floppy password protect program could you mail thanks marcus jones mmj brunel dept materials technology brunel university pgp public key request
sci.crypt	new encryption algorithm article rdq chinet chi schneier chinet chi bruce schneier writes article raeir access digex net steve access digex com steve brinich writes but developing cryptosystems which are specificially designed protect the government domestic spying capabilities takes them beyond that mandate into the forbidden field domestic wiretapping unlike the cia the nsa has prohibition against domestic spying read bamford the puzzle palace did you mistaken nsa communications intelligence mission strictly against foreign governments here excerpt from the enabling charter oct truman that should clarify this the charter was declassified about feb when foia request made public mind you don know that they never collect anything they not supposed but spying citizens isn their charter the comint mission the national security agency nsa shall provide effective unified organization and control the communications intelligence activities the united states conducted against foreign governments provide for integrated operational policies and procedures pertaining thereto used this directive the terms communications intelligence comint shall construed mean all procedures and methods used the interception communications other than foreign press and propaganda broadcasts and the obtaining information from such communications other than intended recipients but shall exclude censorship and the production and dissemination finished intelligence they also tasked with protecting the communications but haven seen the specific enabling memo that assume that the role under which skipjack was developed nsa not the standard setting business though that why this clipper stuff came from nist which believe tasked with coming with standards based their best inputs from other government agencies which would include nsa jim gillogly mersday thrimidge
sci.crypt	let build software cryptophones for over the internet graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes yes not sure xposting comp speech made here too but found that low sample rate samples sec bits per sample plus the shorten lossless sound compression code actually does get speech into with simdgen left over this definitely worth working folks and shorten works well under real time don think that this should worked just the context cryptography that sure pose all sorts problems for all sorts people what needed for someone develop portable telephone quality speech converter imagine you will little box that takes data its serial port and puts out sound and takes sound and codes signals its serial port full duplex now this device not cryptographic device portable poor man sound blaster whatever you want call got loads perfectly legitimate applications for speech synthesis with few nifty libraries and some samples speech recording for electronic messaging building voicemail systems internet talk radio internet relay chat course some the electronic messaging item might encrypted possibly realtime but that the user decision one would need these talky boxes and pair modems and some kind cutout switch over and some code say laptop really like see such thing developed that interactive internet talk radio could done ideally though should general purpose device should general purpose enough device that nobody should able balk its widespread use obviously make easy for homebrewers should use pretty common hardware interesting note that already talked with couple folks about building such thing before this whole clipper thing started even went far track down couple folks who are able make sample units given incentive and some time envisioned finding couple folks interested such project and helping fund development public domain board layout and parts set that could published the form cad drawings for couple major cad packages and postscript anyone interested start provisional mailing list let know you want mjr
sci.crypt	clipper considered harmful restated and amplified article sfqpuju iqop andrew cmu edu jon bennett andrew cmu edu writes strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes the crooks use innocent person clipper phone the tapped line there problem the feds don care whose phone instrument used just that the conversation the suspect the tapped line they get the serial number get the keys and they are business clipper chip person association ever needed celular phones direction finding and directional monitoring receivers can you say little black bakery truck david jon david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	trademark violation claimed the risc processor made fairchild sold intergraph much the same story the remember how spielberg lost the control star wars when the dod started using the name the loss was confirmed court
sci.crypt	secret algorithm clipper chip and crypto key escrow argh this what get for acknowledging david sternlight existence article strnlghtc netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes though think this overstatement does contain grain truth drug dealers spies terrorists and organized crime figures assuming enough probable cause convince judge who need watched not law abiding citizens okay looks like going have the history lesson after all during the vietnam war there were great many citizens opposed who considered themselves perfectly law abiding although nixon and his lackeys thought otherwise the federal government had compunction about adding people who are otherwise decent law abiding and upstanding but disagree with your nice little list you think this could never happen again note that not speculating about what the government could but discussing the sort observation including but not limited phone tapping that the government put its citizens under during time national tension your naivete still appalling btw mean read what you posted again how are differentiate between good people and bad people answer priori can have assume now which way assume assume priori that citizen law abiding rather potential communistdruglordchildabusercultmessiah one the things that supposedly great about america the freedoms enjoyed citizens who are presumed law abiding until proven otherwise mike schmelzer mjs genetics wisc edu finger for pgp people didn riot the minute they saw that film they waited justice which never came ice
sci.crypt	overreacting was once tapped your code good any more article edu uni acs edu shaen bernhardt writes article apr rick dgbt doc jhan debra dgbt doc jerry han writes this giant bally over this clipper chip noticed rather disturbing trend some the mail and posts tossing back and forth deleted circut court judge illinois once said when dealing with government that seeks continually new and more creative ways spy its citizenry one cannot discourage the move empower the common citizen with the means parry this attack personal privacy unfortunately the comment was with regard the banning radar detectors the point remains more and more see the government slowly washing away privacy even unwittingly you think will ever live soceity that issues smart cards citizens birth you think will live soceity that insists register crypto keys they can keep track what saying even there evidence guilt you think will ever live soceity that seeks meddle the affairs its citizenry without recourse any kind tired there imho compromise with administration that seeks implement these proposals under the guise enhancing privacy more than the proposals themselves read the language the press releases the obvious deception involved presenting these pieces the public and sickened revolted repulsed perhaps even this country could care less about the clipper chip the wiretap bill the smart card because they are entrapped the rhetoric the clinton administration the problem the people are not having the scope implicataions pointed out them hell most haven even heard clipper and when they will soothing language telling everyone how nice the government letting them have privacy how come the media not telling about the provisions the clipper decision the provisions the crime bill the abuses civil forfeiture the government uses polls support percent the people want gun bans etc yet the same pollsters have determined according the media that percent the people are unaware what the holocaust the people cannot expected give decent decisions when they are denied the information that all these abuses and whittling away rights are going quietly when they find out when hits them will too late one cannot expect each citizen spend all their time probing searching researching etc for example how big percentage the average population even has access usenet way less than percent bet how many outside internet usenet are even aware what big brother doing have been exposed arguments both sides the issue what the public will get only one side the government side that scary this saddens and frightens conserveative believe not law and order conserveative but the move centralized authoratarian regime really scares mostly because know you cant far wrong underestimating the intelligence the american people tell them going keep them safe from drug dealers and terrorists and they will let you put cameras their home how can the bulk the people informed when the media refuses even the wake waco you find those who support the increasingly totalatarian moves somebody once said something like armed violence meant only used response armed attack not meant used agression this the difference between self defence and murder quite honest the way things are going call self defense let try avoid killing things there enough blood shed the world without adding couple riots civil wars etc probably overreacting but what read scared lot don want children growing war zone and dont want mine growning the eyes security camera hours day the people large need informed but how but one person try talk everyone that will listen but can hardly make any kind dent pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	let build software cryptophones for over the internet demon graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes article regq innn gap caltech edu hal cco caltech edu hal finney writes tried this code yesterday sparcstation elc takes over seconds compress seconds worth speech this means that needs optimized over factor before will usable even half duplex mode ouch thanks for trying the following program very quick hack created few months ago determine whether sun sparcstation ipc could perform real time full duplex encrypted audio with resulting data rates sustainable today modems this test program reads linearly encoded audio from the audio device compresses with gsm compresses frames bit samples recorded khz into bits resulting frame rate encrypts with des then reverses the process and sends the reconstructed audio back the audio device the compressed encrypted audio stream kbits sparcstation ipc not exactly very fast machine these days certainly slower than elc would just barely sustain this activity audio underruns would occcur but the speech was very intelligible ran real time process get the best results remember though that this program quick hack and the performance can certainly improved the audio compression routines can ftp from tub berlin believe look for gsm toast used eric young des implementation but longer know where got from cheers greg cut here test program see how much cpu takes for secure digital audio written onufer greg cheers bungi com written sun ipc running solaris with sun isdn bus card and speakerbox include stdlib include unistd include fcntl include stdio include sys types include sys audioio include stropts include gsm include des boolean svs audio init int audio info prev info audio info info prev info null ioctl audio getinfo prev info perror audio getinfo return false audio initinfo info info record pause true info play pause true info play sample rate info play encoding audio encoding linear info play channels info play precision info record sample rate info record encoding audio encoding linear info record channels info record precision info record buffer size ioctl audio setinfo info perror audio setinfo return false ioctl flush flushrw perror flush return false audio initinfo info info record pause false info play pause false ioctl audio setinfo info perror audio setinfo return false return true boolean svs int ifd gsm handle gsm byte buf gsm signal sample read ifd sample sizeof sample sizeof sample fprintf stderr svs short read return false gsm encode handle sample buf return true boolean svs out int ofd gsm handle gsm byte buf gsm signal sample gsm decode handle buf sample fprintf stderr svs out gsm decode failed return false write ofd sample sizeof sample sizeof sample fprintf stderr svs out short write return false return true main gsm handle gsm frame frame int audiofd int option des cblock key ivec ivec out des key schedule out des cblock cbuf cbuf out cbuf buf audiofd open dev audio rdwr audiofd perror open exit initialize gsm compression code handle gsm create null fprintf stderr svs gsm create failed exit option true gsm option handle gsm opt fast option fprintf stderr svs gsm option fast failed exit initialize des code des random key key des set key key fprintf stderr svs des set key failed exit des set key key out fprintf stderr svs des set key failed exit memset ivec sizeof ivec memset ivec out sizeof ivec out open audio device and configure svs audio init audiofd null exit for get samples bit linear and convert byte frame svs audiofd handle frame exit encrypt decrypt block des cbc encrypt frame cbuf out long ivec des encrypt des cbc encrypt cbuf out cbuf buf long out ivec out des decrypt memmove frame cbuf buf memcmp cbuf cbuf buf fprintf stderr svs memcmp failed exit endif take byte frame and convert samples and play svs out audiofd handle frame exit gsm destroy handle cut here
sci.crypt	let build software cryptophones for over the internet article jqu sol tis com mjr tis com marcus ranum writes really like see such thing developed that interactive internet talk radio could done ideally though should general purpose device should general purpose enough device that nobody should able balk its widespread use obviously make easy for homebrewers should use pretty common hardware suggest start with the ubiquitous sun get lot momentum going custom hardware isn going anywhere until there user base anyone interested start provisional mailing list let know you want count need someone the end experiment the protocols with and like the way you code give weeks move house and settle then for seriously
sci.crypt	overreacting was once tapped your code good any more rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes how come the media not telling about the provisions the clipper decision how can the bulk the people informed when the media refuses the answer your second question lies the way you phrased the first one the media the medis isn the media are media means more than one medium there are thousands publications some say this some say that how can the bulk the people informed when they won read informative publications rahul dhesi dhesi rahul net also dhesi cirrus com
sci.crypt	hearing april received fax letter from representative markey subcommittee telecommunications and finance ron brown secretary commerce since encryption and the clipper chip are raised this letter felt would interest understand that april markey will holding hearing the questions raised this letter there may also follow hearing dedicated the clipper chip but that not definite typed the letter which follows any errors transcription are mine glenn tenney tenney netcom com amateur radio voice fax letter interest follows april the honorable ronald brown secretary department commerce and pennsylvania ave washington dear secretary brown you know have long been interested the privacy and security telecommunications transmissions and data networked environment recent reports concerning the administration endorsement electronic encryption standard based upon clipper chip technology have raised number related issues the international competitiveness high tech manufacturers and the software industry key factor that the government should consider when addressing issues encryption and data security the nation moves forward developing the national communications and information infrastructure security telecommunications transmissions and network data will increasingly important factor for protecting the privacy users the hacker community can compromise the integrity telecommunications transmissions and databases linked the network the people and businesses that use the nation telecommunications network and the personal computers linked through increasingly are demanding that information protected against unauthorized access alteration and theft concerned that the administration plan may mean that remain competitive internationally companies would compelled develop two products one for government customers and another for private commercial users who may want higher encryption standard this may inadvertently increase costs those companies hoping serve both markets assist the subcommittee analysis this issue please respond the following questions has the encryption algorithm standard endorsed the administration been tested any entity other than nsa nist the vendor please identify such entities and the nature testing performed not please describe any plans have the algorithm tested outside experts and how such experts will chosen under the administration plan what entities will the holders the keys decrypt scrambled data what procedures criteria will the administration utilize designate such key holders does the encryption algorithm endorsed the administration contain trap door back door which could allow agency entity the federal government crack the code clear that over time changes technologies used for communications will require new techniques and additional equipment how will encryption devices adapt the rapid advancement telecommunications technology what additional costs would the proposed encryption place the federal government what the estimated cost consumers and businesses which opt for the federal standard their equipment what the commerce department assessment the competitive impact the administration endorsement the clipper chip technology exports computer and telecommunications hardware and software products would appreciate your response later than close business wednesday april you have any questions please have your staff contact colin crowell karen colannino the subcommittee staff sincerely edward markey chairman glenn tenney voice fax tenney netcom com ham radio
sci.crypt	implementing diffie hellman key exchange want add link encryption module that multiplexes upper level routines into single data link the upper levels won know about this and thus key exchange shall only need occur once the initial link establishment figure that can this with des and diffie hellman key exchange using diffie hellman exchange establish bit des key acceptable other words what are the pro and con such setup are there any important issues watch out for aside from filtering out unacceptable keys and order achieve this guess will need use bit math routines for probable prime number calculation exponentiation etc could someone point towards good package this strictly non commercial matthew matt consent uts edu the power one man seems like small squirt tdhoh
sci.crypt	let build software cryptophones for over the internet article demon graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes article jqu sol tis com mjr tis com marcus ranum writes really like see such thing developed that interactive internet talk radio could done ideally though should general purpose device should general purpose enough device that nobody should able balk its widespread use obviously make easy for homebrewers should use pretty common hardware suggest start with the ubiquitous sun get lot momentum going custom hardware isn going anywhere until there user base why don move down even further toward the masses setting this ibm clone probably needs with sound blaster and bis modem those components are very widely available don know the has enough horsepower encrypt the data realtime but the sound blaster has hardware compression and will work any sampling rate from khz khz doug holland doug holland anyone who tries take away freedom holland colostate edu speech will have pry from pgp key available mail cold dead lips
sci.crypt	hearing april article tenneyc hqh netcom com glenn tenney tenney netcom com writes interest understand that april markey will holding hearing the questions raised this letter there may also follow hearing dedicated the clipper chip but that not definite glenn thanks for posting that was surprised notice however that one question might have expected asked was not are all forms strong encryption other than the clipper made illegal speaking which anyone aware whether that question has been asked any knowledgeable official spokesperson for the government have not yet seen mentioned any dozen places might have been reported but could have easily missed ted lee trusted information system inc tmplee tis com box minnetonka
sci.crypt	new encryption algorithm well actually this one easy their job the nsa supposed develop cryptosystems the government chooses ahead and sell those cryptosystems the masses but developing cryptosystems which are specificially designed protect the government domestic spying capabilities takes them beyond that mandate into the forbidden field domestic wiretapping the nsa charter forbids them from doing any purely domestic intelligence work would think that even providing assistance development the skipjack algorithom violation that charter but with any intrenched government agency they will what they think expedent jeff hupp internet jhupp shockwave win net medowglen apt contract programming novell houston texas network design and support voice the best govenment doesn
sci.crypt	new encryption algorithm article rand org jim rand org jim gillogly writes did you mistaken nsa communications intelligence mission strictly against foreign governments here excerpt from the enabling charter oct truman that should clarify this the charter was declassified about feb when foia request made public interesting where can get the whole thing nsa not the standard setting business though that why this clipper stuff came from nist which believe tasked with coming with standards based their best inputs from other government agencies which would include nsa several the newspaper reports have made fairly clear that the nsa did all the real work you can believe everything you read the papers but the package information the nist faxing out has little information beyond what widely known that sounds like true pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com bell labs holmdel from new jersey only work cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	clipper considered harmful article pizzabox demon gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes does dorothy denning read this group not someone the group forwarding questions like these her martin hellman anyone else who seen more details about the chip course she does just she been toasted often for being nsa patsy that she keeping her head down you can always mail her directly denning guvax acc georgetown edu denning cosc georgetown edu denning georgetown edu found the personal attacks prof denning pretty disgusting don agree with all her positions but think scholars can disagree without the argument getting into the gutter these personal attacks are what stopped prof denning from replying issues substance they have cause real harm the serious debate here gideon yuval gideony microsoft com fax twx
sci.crypt	dorothy denning opposes clipper capstone wiretap chips article agora rain com jhart agora rain com jim hart writes the security the system should depend only the secrecy the keys and not the secrecy the algorithms dorothy denning cite source please mike mike godwin ariel rose godwin mnemonic eff org born cambridge pounds ounces inches long eff cambridge new citizen the electronic frontier
sci.crypt	clipper scope was overreacting pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes the problem the people are not having the scope implicataions pointed out them hell most haven even heard clipper and when they will soothing language telling everyone how nice the government letting them have privacy much more deleted the people large need informed but how but one person try talk everyone that will listen but can hardly make any kind dent here how lets write document which includes all the reasons oppose clipper clear concise non techincal manner urge everyone you take the very simple start below and repost with changes let the text evolve until reach something most like then all you should send copy with personnel letter your congress critter local reporter sci tech etc please make this success try post only agreed version not flames respond flame this please change the subject clipper scope discussion michael golan princeton edu all these are points which should made into paragraphs what wrong with the clipper chip usenet users secret how can trust the escrow agencies not cost effective want other encryption systems the government seems want disallow the future anyone can build non key system are worried about back door once everyone uses clipper chip the mechanism for big brother government place change government can lead especially since the escrow agencies operation not governed law the president can change the rules allow free access the keys any time during war few criminals are caught wiretaps the cost and risks are unjustified once the fbi get hold key can decrypt past and future conversations
sci.crypt	what going paul repacholi zrepachol curtin edu wrote the first posting saw thought was joke very bad taste appologies the person who broke the news for what worth clipper chip announcement clipper csrc ncsl nist gov wrote note this file will also available via anonymous file transfer from csrc ncsl nist gov directory pub nistnews and via the nist computer security bbs the white house haven been able open ftp session with that machine operating under the assumption that the address was wrong tried using nslookup and nicname whois nist gov nnsc nsf net host domain name internet address ncsl server mail ncsl nist gov mail ncsl ncsl server dove nist gov ncsl server ecf ncsl nist gov ecf ncsl ncsl server enh nist gov ncsl server sunmgr ncsl nist gov sunmgr ncsl that all could find about the ncsl domain and tried lookup the machine question which failed nicname whois domain lookups both registries failed too thought hey just not using the tools right and tried calling the bbs number answer probably doing something wrong perhaps the machine has been put behind firewall but does look like csrc ncsl nist gov has become machine someone would try ftp ing knows what really appreciate the info scott doty sdoty odie santarosa edu
sci.crypt	clipper and conference calls article netnews upenn edu feeley cattell psych upenn edu michael feeley writes just curious how would the clipper chip system handle conference calls not clipper any encryption system seen number designs they generally involve multi line cleartext bridge multi line cleartext bridge and just were would you put that bridge isn one the receiptants location forget encryption all you have blown any security you thought you might have had jeff hupp internet jhupp shockwave win net medowglen apt contract programming novell houston texas network design and support voice the best govenment doesn
sci.crypt	key registering bodies article wdfo demon graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes article naglec netcom com nagle netcom com john nagle writes since the law requires that wiretaps requested the executive branch and approved the judicial branch seems clear that one the key registering bodies should under the control the judicial branch suggest the supreme court regionally the courts appeal more specifically the offices their clerks got better idea give one set the kgb washington embassy and the other set the red chinese imho one should place the keybanks into satellites space the recovery should done only highly visible teams astronauts borut lavrencic mail ijs lavrencic stefan institute internet borut lavrencic ijs university ljubljana phone ljubljana slovenia pgp public key available request dolgo smois kalis ovraz nikei njihk ocnoo dkril ivseb ipika
sci.crypt	tempest whughes lonestar utsa edu william hughes writes hell just set spark jammer some other very electrically noisy device this doesn work due the near field far field effect you may stop someone five yards away from listening but someone fifty yards away will relatively unaffected unless you pump out hundreds watts and jam all the neighbourhood well that case the government will stomp you ask any radio ham democratic governments care even more about their voters right watch soap operas than they about national security and dictators consider their propaganda integral part their national security and holland colostate edu doug holland writes another idea use laptop computer mentioned earlier the lcd screen lot less noisy than standard crt but since many laptops have power supplies that run volts instead they would considerably quieter afraid this doesn work either can pick laptop screens without any problem most the called low radiation monitors are also useless the description turns out marketing assertion rather than engineering one thought there might market for monitor which was not hugely expensive the military tempest kit but which was well enough shielded stop eavesdropping using available receivers built prototype works and still sitting lab bench commercial interest was exactly zero the absence open standards monitor which really low radiation and costs dollars more can compete against monitor which just claims low radiation and whose only extra cost production the pretty blue sticker the box ross
sci.crypt	new encryption algorithm article rdq chinet chi schneier chinet chi bruce schneier writes unlike the cia the nsa has prohibition against domestic spying read bamford the puzzle palace had senior nsa scientist cambridge one our workshops recently fact was here when the clipper announcement was made but didn learn till after gone said this point that was forbidden law monitor conversations between nationals and chap who very precise about his choice words don expect have any qualms about monitoring domestic conversation one the parties was alien however got thinking the navajo code talkers just imagine hello that the iraqi mission new york this the iraqi foreign ministry baghdad farouq hussein citizen social security number and yes indeed this the new york mission mustafa jadid speaking also citizen social security number such and such here our report activities against the satan clinton ross
sci.crypt	tempest article apr infodev cam rja cam ross anderson writes whughes lonestar utsa edu william hughes writes ideas that are claimed not work deleted how about putting your system inside faraday cage even could build one jim information farming for addr phone finger the ohio state university jebright magnus acs ohio state edu jim ebright mail jre osu edu support privacy support encryption
sci.crypt	wiretapping reality today article vuumdq mbeckman mbeckman com mbeckman mbeckman mbeckman com mel beckman writes unfortunately hoover thought himself above the constitution whatever considered the limits others should obey ruthlessly invaded the privacy many private and public citizens mel when was grad student seattle had chance read hoover book masters deceit and quote sentence from memory and beware fellow americans communist may look just ordinary person went the mirror and was true borut lavrencic mail ijs lavrencic stefan institute internet borut lavrencic ijs university ljubljana phone ljubljana slovenia pgp public key available request dolgo smois kalis ovraz nikei njihk ocnoo dkril ivseb ipika
sci.crypt	wiretapping reality today david sternlight writes little perspective might order cannot believe you can make these claims given hard evidence abuse you ignore stories about survellience martin luther king have you blocked from your mind mccarthy crusade the the number court ordered wire taps pretty low and how many illegal wiretaps are performed funny but that the fbi doesn keep statistics these confidential informer illegal wiretap karl barrus elee menudo edu preferred address barrus tree egr edu nextmail karl barrus elee menudo edu preferred address barrus tree egr edu nextmail
sci.crypt	new encryption algorithm article shockwave win net jhupp shockwave win net jeff hupp writes the nsa charter forbids them from doing any purely domestic intelligence work would think that even providing assistance development the skipjack algorithom violation that charter but with any intrenched government agency they will what they think expedent there are other laws and directives which bear upon the subject for example the national computer security act specifically directs nbs sic work with nsa developing security standards for civilian federal computers pick the bill from cpsr org also includes report describing and some the legislative history including concerns about nsa involvement note also that nsa specifically charged with running the national computer security center quote the aforementioned report nsa also will work with industries the dod computer security center develop security standards for private sector use may may not good idea have nsa tinkering with this but pretty sure legal btw when comes development cryptosystems there may two choices either nsa helped develop which case maybe they can crack maybe not but probably one else can nsa didn help which case they probably can crack and maybe others well
sci.crypt	what going sdoty odie santarosa edu scott doty writes but does look like csrc ncsl nist gov has become machine someone would try ftp ing knows what really appreciate the info csrc ncsl nist gov ftp able from here steve
sci.crypt	clipper considered harmful restated and amplified clipper also allows extraordinary opportunity for the criminal conceal use super encryption automated full system surveillance mechanism quite feasible across radio bandwidth which knows family key can validate clipper wrappers and esn associations but cannot reveal realtime the use super encryption unless knows all unit keys which are being assured are only made available two separate pieces upon specific wiretap like order the serial number will bit block with bit filler doesn take lot check see that correct
sci.crypt	tempest the low radiation claims one sees monitors these days pertain allegedly harmful electromagnetic emissions which does not necessarily have anything wtih tempest security think the alleged hazard but that another topic
sci.crypt	how sensible des towards bit errors hello how sensible des encrypted data towards bit errors how much data per bit will lost average assume you still have the correct key thanx for hints axel experience what you get you don get what you want systemberatung axel dunkel koenigsberger strasse kriftel germany mail cat voice fax
sci.crypt	have seen the lobby and article transfer stratus com cme ellisun stratus com carl ellison writes don know about you but have nearly forgotten how generate paper mail had mail congress would have written many letters now haven written one yet turns out writing paper such complicated job for those hooked our way cool internet just ask postmaster for the mail address the printer paul
sci.crypt	clipper not good enough for government article rdippold qualcom rdippold qualcomm com ron asbestos dippold writes there been some discussion very recently whether the government once again might exempt themselves from something they use screw over well from comp dcom telecom from lesreeves attmail com subject odds ends the news the clipper chip device introduced yesterday may not suitable for government use says house telecom subcommittee chairman markey letter commerce secretary brown markey asked whether the use the technology could lead inadvertently increased costs those companies hoping serve both the government and private markets markey has ordered brown answer several questions about security and cost concerns april communications daily this stupid won cost more those companies hoping serve the gov and private markets they don use the same technology doug bank private systems division dougb ecs comm mot com motorola communications sector dougb nwu edu schaumburg illinois dougb casbah acns nwu edu
sci.crypt	encryption chip availibility article aej cmuvm bitnet aej cmuvm bitnet writes article ofpppcs iuy andrew cmu edu stephen ludwick andrew cmu edu says everybody does anyone know companies that are currently manufacturing encryption chips for sale the general public get them while you can some pointers would greatly appreciated motorola certainly makes them but don know how you would about buying one you probably have buy one our secure radios you could also bring encryption chips from outside the country doug bank private systems division dougb ecs comm mot com motorola communications sector dougb nwu edu schaumburg illinois dougb casbah acns nwu edu
sci.crypt	dorothy denning opposes clipper capstone wiretap chips article apr eff org mnemonic eff org mike godwin writes article agora rain com jhart agora rain com jim hart writes the security the system should depend only the secrecy the keys and not the secrecy the algorithms dorothy denning cite source please dorothy denning cryptography and data security addison wesley page under the heading cryptosystems must satisfy three general requirements the other two are efficiency and ease use michael mauldin carnegie mellon university
sci.crypt	how sensible des towards bit errors cat axel dunkel writes how sensible des encrypted data towards bit errors how much data per bit will lost average assume you still have the correct key depends the mode you using for single bit input block one bit error will have percent chance corrupting each the output bits other words essentially turns the output block into random number you encrypting data cbc mode however only the one bit block will affected the next block and all that follow will decrypted properly good idea have some kind error correction your system corrupted bits are likely todd
sci.crypt	illegal transmit encrypted data aware the restrictions imposed the munitions act the export cryptographic technology however illegal transmit encrypted data from the another country then which laws apply this situation georgel neosoft com george livsey visualize whirrled peas net worth
sci.crypt	keeping your mouth shut was hard drive security article apr midway uchicago edu smk quads uchicago edu steve kramarsky writes should have read the thread before posting own would just add phil very infomative discussion the following caveat the fifth amendment applies only crinial cases nor shall any person compelled any criminal case witness against himself maybe you are using the wrong amendment someone were seize safe containing your paper records and demand that you produce the combination the applicable defense would grounds unreasonable search and seizure the police would entitled subpoena documents relating specific matter but any broad search such implied impounding all your records would unconstitutional the case the safe they would probably get locksmith and assert that they only examined documents covered the warrent sure the cryptographic case their only resort would rubber hose cryptography this would also make good mental experiment use choosing escrow agents would you trust this proposed agent with key your hard disk half the key for that matter robert eachus with standard disclaimer use standard disclaimer function message text clever ideas return better ideas
sci.crypt	 article access digex net steve access digex com steve brinich writes second question why why such strange procedure used and not real rng this turns those kind bottleneck for system security the only theory that makes any sense that and are either the same for all chips vary among very few possibilities that anyone trying break the encryption brute force need only plow through the possible serial numbers about one billion multiplied the number different combinations suppose instead that and can reconstructed given the unit keys generated single batch through some sort known plaintext attack say suppose further that the chips programmed each session never find their way into commercial products but instead end elsewhere suppose the folks elsewhere can determine unit key given physical access one these chips then those same folks can determine and for the whole batch too many suppositions yeah probably pat
sci.crypt	clipper chip realistic for the government try keep the details the encrytion algorithm secret intends use evidence from wiretaps court won defense attorneys attempt obtain the details the method the prosecution attempts present evidence from wiretaps court certain that such attempts will fail james shearer
sci.crypt	pgp where get jeff hupp jhupp shockwave win net wrote facinated the things have heard about the pgp encryption program does anybody out there know where might get version this program that runs under windows dos unix source this writting have unix access and running nifty windows implamentation uucico the moment pgp available executable format for dos and mac and source code for most other platforms including unix many ftp sites keep copy although the mac version getting hard find try the following site soda berkeley edu pub cypherpunks pgp jon jon saville who alive can say thou art jks brunel poet may not tell thy dreams keats pgp public key available upon request finger
sci.crypt	clipper and conference calls just curious how would the clipper chip system handle conference calls depending the encryption system long everyone has the same key can done for example was using vat which internet audio tool for conference call and were encrypting the session unfortunately one site was doing more work and didn have the cpu for didn sound all that good different site you would have use something other than the black box other words don think public key would work the session key would have agreed upon prior the conversation and distributed all sites beforehand out and get stu iii doug bank private systems division dougb ecs comm mot com motorola communications sector dougb nwu edu schaumburg illinois dougb casbah acns nwu edu these opinions not reflect motorola thinking any way shape form
sci.crypt	hearing april article ojm cjh news net tmplee tis com theodore lee writes article tenneyc hqh netcom com glenn tenney tenney netcom com writes interest understand that april markey will holding hearing the questions raised this letter there may also follow hearing dedicated the clipper chip but that not definite glenn thanks for posting that was surprised notice however that one question might have expected asked was not are all forms strong encryption other than the clipper made illegal speaking which anyone aware whether that question has been asked any knowledgeable official spokesperson for the government have not yet seen mentioned any dozen places might have been reported but could have easily missed please let know you get solid answer the question legality other strong cryptosystems far any references have seen have been weasel words more plans the future etc but nothing that could taken strong crypto will not outlawed have heard not verified that the crime bill before congress has language that either requires escrow keys that will regard all systems unapproved for public use like strong cryptosystems not trivially broken the govt without escrowed keys which one cannot readily change read use being only permitted folks with special connections government agencies either terrorist tools drug dealers tools not outlawed specifically but added civil forfeiture powers and clever wording effectively outlawed for all intents and purposes now for some idle speculation for those who don care hit now crypto being effectively outlawed could done without specifically outlawing any class crypto systems for example crowbar hammers screwdrivers and such can regarded burglar tools pretty much the whim the authorities based primarily the individual possessing them the car etc not being trade that makes routine use these tools like manner one who has legitimate need gov definition for strong crypto software systems and caught using them might find themselves possession terrorist tools other words one not working for corporation with extremely sensitive commercial data that warrants the fed opinion strong security government agency and securing only work related data not personal data one will most likely nailed this discoverd personal desire for privacy most certainly will not regarded legitimate need why you want such strong security especially from legitimate law enforcement individual with legitimate endeavors would not concerned government not the business revealing your personal secrets the public you must trying conceal planning conceal some unlawful criminal activity you have something hide hmmmm expect that initially there will some people selected either random who happen have been troublemakers for the purposes making example for those who think the feds are not serious about this mega one asking about right privacy will probably get response that there constitutional right for privacy spelled out such argument used the abortion debate you not have right have security that legitimate law enforcement cannot break suggested the clipper press release this nutshell what find extremely frightening not only for crypto systems this case but for the precident will set laying the groundwork for future erosions privacy escrow both safe deposit box keys master keys combinations for privately owned safes and why not cannot think better way make end run around those inconvenient parts the constitution law cannot easily declared unconstitutional there specific law would simply minor extension the rico statutes wod policies simple policy decision just like many the gun regulations are mainly batf policy decisions the conversation the fed agents would something like are gonna seize your home your computers your car your bank account you don have undress and give yer clothes unless you have floppy yer pocket because they are all connected with your acquisition transport and use terrorist tools and drug dealers tools part the wod against terrorism unnerstand decent american subject would against these noble causes note are not accusing you any wrong doing are only saying your home computers car bank assets are connected with wrong doing somehow they housed transported and funded these terrorist tools only civil matter heh heh had this tip grin therefore the constitutional protection individual rights not apply are arresting the tainted property not you evil grin you wish deposit bond hire some attorneys and court prove the innocence this property that they are not terrorist tools and again prove they are not also drug dealers tools ahead have problem with that course with your bank assets seized car computer home probably job too and your less than limitless resources you might run into some minor practical difficulties grin that what has going damned ballistic exactly how the logic goes when someone gives tip that your home has been used store drugs note trace drugs need found the property only some bozo who will say yup stored stuff that dude house probably get out year sentence for dealing much more cost effective let him walk bust another day and hit the jackpot with your assets disclaimer course note that not lawyer and can only base these speculations what have read heard been told regarding past civil forfeiture cases and how they are used augment the budgets assorted agencies get cooperation folks who just want left alone who not wish put risky situation especially areas where they are denied either meaningful police protection and the means able even pretend defend themselves quite common back east like nyc out west these people have the choice cowering under the government boot cowering under threats pissed off drug dealing gang bangers helpless either case all behind some dude who drops dime you for his gain behind the feds wanting make example civil forfeiture being the hook point are these speculations way out line are they all too typical and does the extension crypto and just about anything that the feds regard inconvenient seem reasonable and not why not what are our guarantees besides the government promises none ted lee trusted information system inc tmplee tis com box minnetonka pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	clipper considered harmful restated and amplified article apr wdl loral com koontzd phobos lrmsc loral com david koontz writes clipper also allows extraordinary opportunity for the criminal conceal use super encryption automated full system surveillance mechanism quite feasible across radio bandwidth which knows family key can validate clipper wrappers and esn associations but cannot reveal realtime the use super encryption unless knows all unit keys which are being assured are only made available two separate pieces upon specific wiretap like order the serial number will bit block with bit filler doesn take lot check see that correct depends whether the filler constant makes checking easy but susceptible replay variable timer counter random which makes replay harder and can also make easier for the inquisitors know they missed messages gotten them out sequence other interesting things that sort person might care about still easy conceal super encryption least until the inquisitors get ahold the key which can take while presumably not near real time worst case which the escrow agencies provide the key the local cops still only gets one side the conversation per warrant unless the same key used for both directions which suppose the capstone version the chip will probably insist pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com bell labs holmdel from new jersey only work cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	clipper and conference calls article shockwave win net jhupp shockwave win net jeff hupp writes conference calls not clipper any encryption system seen number designs they generally involve multi line cleartext bridge multi line cleartext bridge and just were would you put that bridge isn one the receiptants location forget encryption all you have blown any security you thought you might have had most the people using encrypted conference bridges these days are military equivalent like cia and other embassy personnel putting bridges the recipient location normal vault military base meade and the secure phones are sound proof rooms with big locks the doors because they talking about classified stuff golf with other generals that paradigm will change start using encrypted phones our offices homes carry normal conversations about dinner plans and stock purchases and meeting schedules and technical info and the good batch illegal frop that got last weekend from bob most people don use sound proof vaults and may use bridges their pbx from the local phone company way calls long distance value added phone company alliance conference bridges clipjack mainly used for the radio portion cellular phones the conferencing aspects don change but there may market niche for trusted conference bridge providers though suppose the inquisitors would try get blanket wiretap authorization for many bridges just case bad guy might use the service pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com bell labs holmdel from new jersey only work cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	tempest article apr infodev cam rja cam ross anderson writes afraid this doesn work either can pick laptop screens without any problem most the called low radiation monitors are also useless the description turns out marketing assertion rather than engineering one thought there might market for monitor which was not hugely expensive the military tempest kit but which was well enough shielded stop eavesdropping using available receivers built prototype works and still sitting lab bench commercial interest was exactly zero the absence open standards monitor which really low radiation and costs dollars more can compete against monitor which just claims low radiation and whose only extra cost production the pretty blue sticker the box ross heard somewhere can name the source that tempest does not necessarily pick just crts but can pick emissions from almost any chip that true the kind monitor would not make any difference becuase everything the screen can picked from the video controller can anybody verify refute this angel foghorn leghorn coe northeastern edu btw these are opinions and not that any other entity god its full stars dave don know about you but got company epidemic
sci.crypt	official secrets act usa sorry news reader doesn seem know how copy subject header this tracks the thread why people don need strong crypto the atomic energy act expressly forbids thinking about building nuclear devices while was grad school friend mine got security clearance work the defense for the progressive magazine found lots articles which were public domain removed from the local engineering library madison wisconsin the lawyers sent him all over the states other libraries show that the information the article was already public what pissed everyone off was local underground paper went and published the article anyway had been precensored the feds that what this was all about the judge declared the case moot the atomic energy act has never been tested court from discussions with several people familiar with the case only other times has this preemptive clause been used every case the people simply did what they felt like and courts tossed the cases out for all intents and purposes the government does have precidence for declaring things classified after has been published while was working star wars this happened clearance was the works and developed method for tracking particle beams was good enough classify was longer allowed work friend from canada was the same boat developed method compute stripping cross sections but because the subject was classified was not allowed present his own paper conference later published open journal without problems when the going gets wierd the wierd turn pro the feds can whatever they want whenever they feel like and they will make rules let themselves get away with since the mass media can tell the difference between joke and the real thing like ranch appocolypse for the waco massacre don count them help spread the word about their loss freedom the government can make strong crypto illegal what since the government does not obey any its own rules why should patience persistence truth reality dvader hemp imi hep anl gov mike home mrosing igc org
sci.crypt	citations for electronic cash papers please deeply grateful for citations any papers electronic cash schemes enquiring minds eric weaver sony avtc river oaks pkwy chief engineer kfjc foothill college los altos hills
sci.crypt	let build software cryptophones for over the internet douglas craig holland holland colostate edu wrote article demon graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes article jqu sol tis com mjr tis com marcus ranum writes really like see such thing developed that interactive internet talk radio could done ideally though should general purpose device should general purpose enough device that nobody should able balk its widespread use obviously make easy for homebrewers should use pretty common hardware why don move down even further toward the masses setting this ibm clone probably needs with sound blaster and bis modem those components are very widely concur for version but for interactive thing like internet talk radio makes cringe the amount hogging such thing would the bandwidth the internet mean meg files getting floated around for internet talk radio bad enough have solution use the phone system take your electronics and use them point point conversations through the phone and thats you need tell someone something secret and very important wouldn make more sense write out concisely and just quick then use code word and spend your twenty cents those good analog systems like shortwave telephones and have use don gunk nice digital packet network trying emulate them baxter baxter
sci.crypt	clipper considered harmful article apr ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes there are three issues with clipper the first whether not the architecture the whole scheme capable working answer with one significant exception yes really think that nsa and nist have designed this scheme about well can assuming that their real objectives are stated permit wiretapping under certain carefully controlled circumstances with minimum risk abuse the exception that exists outside the chip programming diskette that seriously wrong and should loaded onto the chip separately those who disagree and don claim answer obvious though found own reasoning sufficiently persuasive that was forced rewrite the conclusions section technical analysis paper had originally blasted the scheme issue this invitation assume that you were charged with implementing such system with complete regard for civil rights and due process what would you differently answering this question please accept nsa fundamental assumptions that both strong cryptography against outsiders and the ability wiretap some domestic users necessary you feel necessary challenge those assumptions the context the last issue present below right here discussing just the technical aspects and don any means claim that just because something can done should steve here sketch alternative that believe addresses most the objections the clipper scheme notation concatenation exclusive message encrypted key message decrypted key hash digest signature message important values local chip unit key from escrow agency remote chip unit key from escrow agency serial number the local chip serial number the remote chip number escrow agencies session keys agreed upon external this protocol family key need not secret protocol choose such that remote chip does same for compute the following remote chip does the same for send remote chip and receive from remote chip compute note that remote chip does the same for and user data encrypted decrypted with keys assumptions trap doors and not invertible algorithms for and are secret otherwise software implementation bogus chip could communicate with real chip the chip only supports the following operation return load return return given return load given compute given return given return anything programmed into the chip can determined destroying the chip can not determined except destroying the chip unfortunately this may not true reality suppose possible determine how chip has been programmed with sophisticated ray machine look for blown fuses the are programmed independantly the escrow agencies notes for tapping escrow agency given and returns lea must contact all escrow agencies with the serial numbers from both chips and the encrypted partial keys this allows the agencies record that both chips were tapped lea only get the session key not the key all conversations particular chip this precludes real time decrypting conversation but that isn one the stated requirements observation order for any secure tap able communication scheme work the active parts need share secret and this secret revealed communications those that know the secret can made tap able obvious candidates are the cryptographic algorithm and the master family key relative size and complexity suggests that the key can obtained from silicon implementation the scheme lot easier and faster than the algorithm rsbx raymond brand rbrand usasoc soc mil
sci.crypt	once tapped your code good any more article edu uni acs edu shaen bernhardt writes think again you won see using apple new signature from the finder feature why not hasn been released there way for you evaluate yet after all apple could have been smart and had aoce use hash encrypted with rsa just like pkcs signatures they could even actually pkcs compliant for all you know why not wait until released and hard information available before passing judgement aoce algorithm aren secret because apple being fascistic aoce itself remains secret except for apple demos macworld simply because not done yet may flawed and may not however you can tell which until you actually see least quite impressed with what have seen far and have expectation being disappointed amanda walker intercon systems corporation
sci.crypt	government intentions regarding encryptoion there article communications week april issue which states definitively that not only the justice department trying revive the wiretapping bill but they are also trying find way force key registration clipper obvious thrust exactly this direction dorothy dennings quoted this missive communications week april page read and get peeved folks then act now lose your fundamental right privacy clinton has shown that his only interest this has with abortion and not the right all citizens secure their papers and effects karl denninger karl genesis mcs com you can never please everyone except data line bankrupting yourself live internet chicago mcsnet first
sci.crypt	hearing april article rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes personal desire for privacy most certainly will not regarded legitimate need why you want such strong security especially from legitimate law enforcement individual with legitimate endeavors would not concerned government not the business revealing your personal secrets the public you must trying conceal planning conceal some unlawful criminal activity you have something hide hmmmm you have underlined here the battle that must fought battle for the hearts and minds the american public people must realize that the government not their fit father confessor the government does not have right share our every thought the moment decide share that thought with someone else distance order protect ourselves from government bent undermining the constitution must realize that our government our enemy much not more than the soviet union ever was this hard for some people who have been brought with loyalty our government cast being synonmous with patriotism expect that initially there will some people selected either random who happen have been troublemakers for the purposes making example for those who think the feds are not serious about this mega must vigilant and make sure that not let such events unprotested must willing fight the government every step the way that what has going damned ballistic exactly how the logic goes when someone gives tip that your home has been used store drugs note trace drugs need found the property only some bozo who will say yup stored stuff that dude house probably get out year sentence for dealing much more cost effective let him walk bust another day and hit the jackpot with your assets its time rolled back this nonsense civil forfeiture the most effective end run around the constitution that has ever been promulgated our enemy used the soviets now clearly our own government smg
sci.crypt	clipper considered harmful restated and amplified article apr wdl loral com koontzd phobos lrmsc loral com david koontz writes clipper also allows extraordinary opportunity for the criminal conceal use super encryption automated full system surveillance mechanism quite feasible across radio bandwidth which knows family key can validate clipper wrappers and esn associations but cannot reveal realtime the use super encryption unless knows all unit keys which are being assured are only made available two separate pieces upon specific wiretap like order the serial number will bit block with bit filler doesn take lot check see that correct yes but the extra encryption could applied before the message encrypted the clipper that the wrapper would fine the phone serial number and the session key would the law enforcement field etc but the message wouldn readable even the particular clipper key were obtained from the escrow agents fact shouldn even possible detect that message has been double encrypted without court order right
sci.crypt	clipper considered harmful restated and amplified article wcs apr rainier att com wcs anchor att com bill stewart writes still easy conceal super encryption least until the inquisitors get ahold the key which can take while presumably not near real time worst case which the escrow agencies provide the key the local cops still only gets one side the conversation per warrant unless the same key used for both directions which suppose the capstone version the chip will probably insist was under the impression from reading denning description the clipper operation that the same session key used both directions for encrypting the message text but that each chip uses own key for encrypting the session key into the law enforcement field you only need know the key for one the phones involved decrypt the messages both directions
sci.crypt	overreacting was once tapped your code good any more article apr rick dgbt doc jhan debra dgbt doc jerry han writes article edu uni acs edu shaen bernhardt writes text deleted quite honest the way things are going call self defense never advocated not saying what you believe advocating second thought and calm smart warrior defeats the enemy ambush the battlefield smarter warrior defeats the enemy open warfare the battlefield the smartest warrior defeats the enemy without using the battlefield think about have thesis was sun tzu more the point those who are called the good militarists old could make opponents lost contact between front and back lines lose reliability between large and small groups lose mutual concern for the welfare the different social classes among them lose mutual accomodation between the rulers and the ruled lose enlistments among the soldiers lose coherence within the armies they went into action when was advantageous stopped when was not today sitting your hands will get you nowhere this battle jerry han crc doc div behavioural research jhan debra dgbt doc these are opinions and opinions only proud and frozen member the mighty warriors band memories those left behind still ringing ears genesis uni acs edu uni acs edu public keys finger and request public key archives pgp public keys pgp iastate edu sovereignty the sign brutal past fight clinton wiretap chip crypto not crime ask how
sci.crypt	write clinton article transfer stratus com cme ellisun stratus com carl ellison writes been reading the sci crypt alt privacy clipper and comp org eff talk discussions about the clipper chip and find usual that most think alike there lot repitition each these messages were sent clinton well the net instead the net might actually have some effect mcimail com white house this white house mail address really working yet someone posted such address compuserve few months ago but apparently the white house wasn really set recive hundreds thousands messages day that account and didn want people use yet this mci address something the people the white house actually read another craig shergold story don know just asking unless the people the white house print and distribute this mail every day you may have better luck printing out letter paper that flat white stuff all over desk and snail mailing the white house imagine writing your local representative and senator wouldn hurt either heck why not write gore while you greg greg brail citibank gjb fig citib com
sci.crypt	off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was corporate jon lnes jon ifi uio writes person know belonging research lab rivate company claimed during priavte conversation that given the equipment his lab could crack kerberos ticket minutes hour had access rather powerful des hardware but not extraordinare kind believe the attack was possible because the amount known plaintext the ticket which itself constitutes small message this was two years ago don believe you and don believe your friend why because des not known have any known plaintext attacks readily availble unless your friend knows something and keeping secret was bullshitting you now possible that noted weakness the implementation the kerberos protocol for instance using weak rng generate keys might cut down the keyspace not for the user keys for the other kind who name can remember however this not what was claimed you are claiming general weakness des which not known exist the open literature don get wrong des weaker than should however cracking minutes requires more money spent the cracking machine than any organization know has available perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer monde lui meme
sci.crypt	write clinton mcimail com white house this white house mail address really working yet someone posted such address compuserve few months ago but apparently the white house wasn really set recive hundreds thousands this real address understanding the current process that mail takes gets downloaded floppy disk and processed retiree volunteers who match the message against message profiles and check the message count yeah that for gays the military what this clipper stuff must against gays the military the higher volume white house email stuff the works know for fact but won online for probably another month two the soonest understanding that the link speed will increase direct internet instead compu erve floppy but the message processing will remain the same unless the people the white house print and distribute this mail every day you may have better luck printing out letter paper that flat white stuff all over desk and snail mailing the white house imagine writing your local representative and senator wouldn hurt either heck why not write gore while you the white house email does get read agree that printing and sending everyone you can think probably better because more visible but the message processing fitting messages against template the same either case mjr
sci.crypt	illegal transmit encrypted data article gbx sugar neosoft com georgel neosoft com george livsey writes aware the restrictions imposed the munitions act the export cryptographic technology however illegal transmit encrypted data from the another country then which laws apply this situation from the law perspective unless you engaging illegal speech not illegal use encryption yet the nsa allowed try listen but you not obligated make easy for them yet the other country may have more repressive laws about that gather france bureaucracy wants know what you saying and the old soviet union they didn need laws make things illegal paranoia follows for those you who want play safe the fact that the nsa listening may affect your willingness use wimpy crypto technologies but may also affect your willingness use technologies that violate rsa patents you use pgp the nsa may tell rsa that you doing and the secret service catches they may decide that the mere fact that rsa hasn filed lawsuit against you doesn mean that you don deserve have your computer confiscated for possible patent violation munitions law violation espionage money laundering drug importation and creatin disturbance and then not give back because you did violate the patent even though they had drop all the other charges unlike that nasty steve jackson who had the gall not guilty anything pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com bell labs holmdel from new jersey only work cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	tempest article apr lynx dac northeastern edu angel foghorn leghorn coe northeastern edu kirill shklovsky writes article apr infodev cam rja cam ross anderson writes afraid this doesn work either can pick laptop screens without any problem heard somewhere can name the source that tempest does not necessarily pick just crts but can pick emissions from almost any chip that true the kind monitor would not make any difference becuase everything the screen can picked from the video controller can anybody verify refute this yes that true tempest nothing magic just listening any available electromagnetic emissions and using all the analysis techniques you know separate out the interesting stuff the nice thing about old crts that they used put out lots signal they easy detect and you your sync carefully you can watch the output the monitor your deceptively marked chevy step van some brands electric typewriters were even worse both cases especially nice because gets you the data the user looking rather than whatever stuff the paging algorithm paging out disk etc with newer quieter equipment there isn much signal and harder isolate the fun parts tempest rated equipment has much lower signal levels but everything has vibrations master chuan said pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com bell labs holmdel from new jersey only work cyberspace white house commect line fax
sci.crypt	dorothy denning opposes clipper capstone wiretap chips apr eff org mnemonic eff org mike godwin writes article agora rain com jhart agora rain com jim hart writes the security the system should depend only the secrecy the keys and not the secrecy the algorithms dorothy denning cite source please cryptography and data security page perhaps
sci.crypt	amiga ripem has anyone ported ripem the amiga yet anyone working emailed responses are fine ken guyton emory university preferred uskmg unix emory edu information technology division uucp gatech emoryu uskmg atlanta non domain bitnet uskmg emoryu phone fax
sci.crypt	tempest article apr lynx dac northeastern edu angel foghorn leghorn coe northeastern edu kirill shklovsky writes article apr infodev cam rja cam ross anderson writes afraid this doesn work either can pick laptop screens without any problem most the called low radiation monitors are also useless the description turns out marketing assertion rather than engineering one thought there might market for monitor which was not hugely expensive the military tempest kit but which was well enough shielded stop eavesdropping using available receivers built prototype works and still sitting lab bench commercial interest was exactly zero the absence open standards monitor which really low radiation and costs dollars more can compete against monitor which just claims low radiation and whose only extra cost production the pretty blue sticker the box ross heard somewhere can name the source that tempest does not necessarily pick just crts but can pick emissions from almost any chip that true the kind monitor would not make any difference becuase everything the screen can picked from the video controller can anybody verify refute this just thought something yes laptops can still read but not quite easy normal with crt thought airline pilots lately have been complaining about how laptops being used flight mess with the plane instruments this can hyped manufacturers may start building laptops with even lower emmisions would probably still possible pick with surveillance equipment but this point would lot cheaper mask the remaining signals with tempest techniques doug holland doug holland anyone who tries take away freedom holland colostate edu speech will have pry from pgp key available mail cold dead lips
sci.crypt	implementing diffie hellman key exchange you should probably use numbers much larger than bits also you may want include some randomly generated bitstrings your protocol this way someone should find the shared key you and another person use one day they won able guess for the next day sends mod and random string sends mod and random string both find mod mod shared key then both calculate session key hash shared key also you will want make sure that you getting the right public key value mod someone with the power intercept and change messages can oterwise spoof you sending both you his public key and then acquiring session key with each you john
sci.crypt	clipper considered harmful article apr microsoft com gideony microsoft com gideon yuval writes these personal attacks are what stopped prof denning from replying issues substance they have cause real harm the serious debate here they are and they have david david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	comments clipper for publication writing article clipper for network world looking for comments and opinions that can quote the scheme its implications for security and privacy its acceptance here and overseas etc hope this balenced article with opinions from various quarters the only catch that your name and company affiliation will appear print very tight deadline need finish this wednesday night please call mail responses thanks bruce
sci.crypt	does rush read his mail apr henson wwu edu henson wwu edu sean dean writes but have idea compuserve mail address compuserve com ken jongsma smiths industries jongsma swdev com grand rapids michigan compuserve com
sci.crypt	trojan horse the clipper gentlefolk seems that the step taking warrant the telco get wiretap much stinky red herring don you love animal metaphors with each phone broadcasting the serial number its chip not syntactically different than all they have aim reciever the general direction today target and use the serial number identify the session they want and get the chip number the other end the conversation even without the key this great for traffic analysis can think several ways learn the right serial number looks like one intended effect the clipper eliminate the awkward business getting the telco cooperate risking getting caught the act with your alligator clips erect this particularly handy you have and btw did anyone explain why they are scrambling the serial number cheers marc marc thibault marc tanda isis org automation architect cis oxford mills ontario canada freenet
sci.crypt	once tapped your code good any more article apr rick dgbt doc jerry han writes guess what people you live one the few countries the world where person can complain without getting shot only guessing but from his address say that jerry like lives canada unlike thinks that our friends the enjoy the same freedom that and has not seen the slow but steady erosion the south have the benefit relatively slow politicians and ineffective law enforcement our rednecks tend the objects derision rather than elected officials everything can keep with the real criminals any time they actually after somebody just because they don like his her attitude national news also often blows their faces the well intentioned but flawed zundel case which resulted scolding from the supreme court not only for prosecuting the case but parliament for passing the law was prosecuted under our friends south the border don have easy time among other things they have many agencies have agencies and some them have teeth they also have the war drugs which gives law enforcement agencies exceptional powers ignore individuals rights the dea has more arbitrary power than that given canadian agencies under the war measures act have the rcmp and csis who can stop fighting each other long enough any really effective suppression private citizens rights not only that our police commissions have teeth learned when had fend off bent cop may ironic that the nation founded life liberty and the pursuit happiness getting government imposed order while the nation founded peace order and good government getting your face liberty that not say our time won come looks like chretien going run law and order platform afraid cheers marc marc thibault marc tanda isis org automation architect cis oxford mills ontario canada freenet
sci.crypt	need the clipper for cheap security article rdippold qualcom ron asbestos dippold writes the only thing that worries that compression the soundblaster can automatically hardware but other than that don have good feel for how processor intensive can estimate how fast you need there better way doesn qualcom have secure design that decided not market since they aren going use wouldn the patriotic thing put the design the public domain how about selling cryptography educational kit with the critical parts something that could end option board with two phone jacks cheers marc marc thibault marc tanda isis org automation architect cis oxford mills ontario canada freenet
sci.crypt	organized lobbying for cryptography article apr news clarkson edu dwight tuinstra writes great slogan ready sign with crypto lobbying effort though wouldn want through nra offshoot shall also push for the cra cryptographic rights amendment looking from here the frozen north looks like you could worse than get the nra involved they have kindred problem large number voters the right attitude and lots funds from ethical constitutional viewpoint haven seen good argument for cryptographic rights that doesn also support the nra position guns and vice versa cheers marc marc thibault marc tanda isis org automation architect cis oxford mills ontario canada freenet
sci.crypt	overreacting was once tapped your code good any more article apr rick dgbt doc jerry han writes smart warrior defeats the enemy ambush the battlefield smarter warrior defeats the enemy open warfare the battlefield the smartest warrior defeats the enemy without using the battlefield all got the first two reversed judge roy bean
sci.crypt	new encryption algorithm article raeir access digex net steve access digex com steve brinich writes well actually this one easy their job the nsa supposed develop cryptosystems the government chooses ahead and sell those cryptosystems the masses but developing cryptosystems which are specificially designed protect the government domestic spying capabilities takes them beyond that mandate into the forbidden field domestic wiretapping but the nsa will not doing any wiretapping the actual wiretapping will presumably conducted the fbi course the capability for this was provided the nsa but think that they are still within the limitations their charter realize this fine point and some may differ but this opinion although don care for clipper and won support use don see the nsa having overstepped their bounds david conrad his mind not for rent any god government cat talk conferencing network computer conferencing and file archive bps bps bis turbopep new users use new login available via pursuit city code midet mail address dave michigan com
sci.crypt	clipper considered harmful restated and amplified article apr random ccs northeastern edu rogue ccs northeastern edu free radical writes will like this feds need the key phone escrow you have warrant tap the line phone feds yes escrow fine here our key rogue neu edu rogue agent sod also goes like this fed need listen into mafia head druglord terrorist bbs sysop conversations but don have probable cause for tap fed who have tap fed some other enemy the state fed get the keys can always claim that phone being used the tapped line there got some way associate instrument with individual the state effectively has tap possibly not admissible given the war drugs exceptions the ammendments who knows but none the less listenable tap any phone charles mattair work mattair synercom hounix org standard disclaimer home cgm elmat synercom hounix org mature society civil servant semantically equivalent civil master robert heinlein the notebooks lazarus long
sci.crypt	fifth amendment and passwords article apr aukuni pgut aukuni writes jzsz jzo uiuc edu kadie uiuc edu carl kadie writes looks like you can forced reveal password anyone can provide convincing legal argument the contrary actual court case most interested this the case britain according the head the computer crime unit here when interviewed him couple months ago wendy grossman north avenue kew founder the skeptic richmond surrey freelance writer recovering folksinger
sci.crypt	let build software cryptophones for over the internet hmmm celp takes about mips for full duplex and has been implemented about million dsp chips the card only cost about and sure once demand goes the prices would drop the analog devices board that looking now cost about academic price don think hardware something worry about you get working people will snap internet phone cards like there was tomorrow what need here good implementation celp the government code absolute crap got speedup after looking for couple hours and modifications pgp allow compress decompress bit frames every msec think the should have enough juice for this mips part the project working now trying get celp and running realtime full duplex mode gotta find the source pgp and see how tough would integrate the decryption parts into the code play with anyone else out there got setup see lidflip instructions edward hutchins eah cec wustl edu other side card
sci.crypt	tempest article apr lynx dac northeastern edu angel foghorn leghorn coe northeastern edu kirill shklovsky writes heard somewhere can name the source that tempest does not necessarily pick just crts but can pick emissions from almost any chip that true the kind monitor would not make any difference becuase everything the screen can picked from the video controller can anybody verify refute this anyone who attended hohocon will attest you can pick information off the video chip surprisingly easy too the guy did with portable with very minor mods only worked from feet but then was just demonstration rogue neu edu rogue agent sod the nsa now funding research not only cryptography but all areas advanced mathematics you like circular describing these new research opportunities just pick your phone call your mother and ask for one
sci.crypt	basic crypto requirements order have formulate rational position what cryptography policies are acceptable must set forth list basic requirements would propose the following starting point the algorithm must publicly known and must have record surviving attempts outside experts find weaknesses the system implementation must make possible verify that the advertised algorithm fact the one that being used the key must quickly changeable the user and must sufficient length and complexity defeat any brute force search possible now the reasonably near future note that these requirements are not incompatible with some form key escrow system the may issue byte describes example encryption system which can clearly implemented manner consistent with the above requirements while requiring that parts the key escrowed order have one public key listed central distributor
sci.crypt	clipper considered harmful yuan scws harvard edu nina yuan writes not lawyer and don even play one but intuitively there something wrong with having one words archived for possible future use against you this possibility frightens more than any the talk about the clipper chip right cryptography etc can just imagine the mother wheeled into the labour ward after delivery government agent steps read the baby its rights you have the right remain silent you give this right anything you say may taken down and used evidence against you waaaaaaaaah anthony shipman you got taught before too late software export pty ltd before you are six seven eight cato east hawthorn hate all the people your relatives hate melbourne australia you got carefully taught mail als cpsg com
sci.crypt	code for crypt like encryption looking for some public domain and exportable code for encryption nothing elaborate just something that will satisfy marketing need yes unix platform jerry natowitz guest user arpa jin ursa major spdcc com uucp ima harvard rayssd linus spdcc jin
sci.crypt	birthday attack recently saw message here posted bob silverman think which referred birthday attack cryptosystem looking for references and explanations this type attack thanks paul
sci.crypt	tempest apr random ccs northeastern edu rogue ccs northeastern edu free radical writes anyone who attended hohocon will attest you can pick information off the video chip surprisingly easy too the guy did with portable with very minor mods only worked from feet but then was just demonstration convention for santa claus impersonators please elaborate enquiring minds those the second and third jars from the left want know peter
sci.crypt	clipper and conference calls quoting dougb ecs comm mot com article apr lmpsbbs comm mot com you would have use something other than the black box other words don think public key would work the session key would have agreed upon prior the conversation and distributed all sites beforehand why can one site decide session key and send the other sites public key encryption paul crowley pdc dcs trust know what doing fold fish for jesus
sci.crypt	code for crypt like encryption article apr spdcc com jin spdcc com jerry natowitz writes looking for some public domain and exportable code for encryption nothing elaborate just something that will satisfy marketing need yes unix platform you can find what you looking for hundreds sites worldwide try anonymous ftp nic funet finland pub unix bsd net lib libc gen crypt this includes source code for fully functional des encryption and decryption there are some who believe that public domain code exportable some who don make your own judgements but seems obvious regards hamrick
sci.crypt	illegal transmit encrypted data wcs anchor att com bill stewart writes the fact that the nsa listening may affect your willingness use wimpy crypto technologies but may also affect your willingness use technologies that violate rsa patents you use pgp the nsa may tell rsa that you doing and the secret service catches afraid have disagree with you that point nsa will not tell rsa any other non dod entity anything that its eavesdropping reveals that includes the fbi and secrect service although there have been rare exceptions
sci.crypt	organized lobbying for cryptography jgfoot minerva cis yale edu josh goldfoot writes tarl neustaedter tarl coyoacan stratus com wrote means that the eff public stance complicated with issues irrelevant the encryption issue per there may well people who care about the encryption issue who don care associate themselves with the network erotica issue may even disagree with the eff position perhaps these encryption only types would defend the digitized porn was posted encrypted these issues are not seperable you maintain well regardless what policy liabilities anyone washington may think eff has going ahead aggressively attacking the assumptions that are behind the administrations clipper chip initiative for all the reasons stated here washington you have work under the assumption that everyone has some liabilities government and non governmental organizations alike all share the same glass house eff variously identified the hacker defense fund the first amendment absolutists the new communists etc but also acknowledged leader the civil liberties arena and respected serious player the policy circles unless there another organization with the credibility and clout and right policy stance that you know washington please don count eff out valid representative your views the clipper chip matter cliff figallo fig eff org eff online guy
sci.crypt	pgp where get the moment pgp available executable format for dos and mac and source code for most other platforms including unix many ftp sites keep copy although the mac version getting hard find try the following site soda berkeley edu pub cypherpunks pgp for those with out ftp access try nitv bbs see sig have the following all from nic funet garbo uwasa sony com and ftp uni erlangen platform execs source patch src xtras bbs file area fido freqname dos login pgpdos pgpsdos mac nonibm pgpmac pgpsmac amiga nonibm pgpami archimedes nonibm pgparc win pgpos next nonibm pgpnxt unix nonibm pgpunx haven looked the archive see has source not usually because can handle the format for fidonet freq magic names the pgps names are source code others are either execs execs src extras the case next just patch you still need one the full source code packages nitv bbs free this not public service announcement testes saxi solidi podex opacus gravedinosus est stanton mccandlish sysop noise the void data center bbs indranet fidonet internet anton hydra unm edu data phone bis
sci.crypt	new encryption algorithm article raeir access digex net steve access digex com steve brinich writes well actually this one easy their job the nsa supposed develop cryptosystems the government chooses ahead and sell those cryptosystems the masses but developing cryptosystems which are specificially designed protect the government domestic spying capabilities takes them beyond that mandate into the forbidden field domestic wiretapping unlike the cia the nsa has prohibition against domestic spying read bamford the puzzle palace bruce have that book and the way read one side the conversation must from outside the united states coures that ass mes that the nsa plays the rules jeff hupp internet jhupp shockwave win net medowglen apt contract programming novell houston texas network design and support voice the best govenment doesn
sci.crypt	new encryption algorithm article rdq chinet chi schneier chinet chi bruce schneier writes unlike the cia the nsa has prohibition against domestic spying read bamford the puzzle palace had senior nsa scientist cambridge one our workshops recently fact was here when the clipper announcement was made but didn learn till after gone said this point that was forbidden law monitor conversations between nationals and chap who very precise about his choice words don expect have any qualms about monitoring domestic conversation one the parties was alien however got thinking the navajo code talkers just imagine hello that the iraqi mission new york this the iraqi foreign ministry baghdad farouq hussein citizen social security number and yes indeed this the new york mission mustafa jadid speaking also citizen social security number such and such here our report activities against the satan clinton ross this one easy they tape the conversation call the fbi secret service you see activities against the satan clinton could construed threat against the president the united states sure they nsa fbi have enough judges their collective pockets have warrent before the call over jeff hupp internet jhupp shockwave win net medowglen apt contract programming novell houston texas network design and support voice the best govenment doesn
sci.crypt	what would happen export restrictions violated chinet chi schneier chinet chi bruce schneier writes article apr yuma acns colostate edu holland colostate edu douglas craig holland writes heard lot talk about the nsa infamous control over encryption export through the itar here question say develop this great new encryption system and want sell software worldwide the thought police then come and say this algorithm threat national security you will not permitted export this point what kind trouble could get into ignored the itar and sold program international customers anyway doug holland you would arrested international arms trafficker there are several things itar which have never been tested court the concensus appears you could arrested international arms trafficker you could regardless the state the law but there are some paragraphs which suggest you would violating the law goes court the itars could thrown out incompatible with the first amendment the court could rule that software technical data not subject the itars the court could rule that the phrase publicly available defined the itars would apply making only subject requiring general export license you could prosecuted successfully for arms trafficing espionage general concensus among lawyers who have read the itars that one the first two would occur arthur rubin rubin dsg dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet cts com personal opinions are own and not represent those employer
sci.crypt	clipper considered harmful restated and amplified article strnlghtc ifd netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes brad yearwood posts long response the issue registering phone clipper relationship doesn wash recall that law enforcement gets court order tap suspect phone calls they what they now figure out which lines tap they then record the stuff clipper they read the law enforcement block extract the serial number and get the keys using the court order new difficulties such using someone else phone instrument phone line are introduced that wouldn have existed absent clipper the crooks were going use pay phone say they could have done without clipper the government figures out they doing they listen and clipper conversation they get the serial number and then the keys the crooks use innocent person clipper phone the tapped line there problem the feds don care whose phone instrument used just that the conversation the suspect the tapped line they get the serial number get the keys and they are business clipper chip person association ever needed david david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	clipper considered harmful restated and amplified article wcs apr rainier att com wcs anchor att com bill stewart writes the serial number will bit block with bit filler doesn take lot check see that correct depends whether the filler constant makes checking easy but susceptible replay variable timer counter random which makes replay harder and can also make easier for the inquisitors know they missed messages gotten them out sequence other interesting things that sort person might care about use secret nope obscure cryptographic encoding expand the bit serial number bit block the redundancy hereby introduced can used detect tampered clipper signals where some public enemy replaced the block random data and course the block would used initialise the encryption the user data that the receiving end the correct block must processed order have any chance getting the plaintext back for those you who might want mangle the block xor ing constant pattern the transmission line and restore before feeding into the receiving crippler chip would add further encrypted copies this block perhaps created repeated application the encryption algorithm regular intervals during the transmission the receiving chip detects mismatch must assume that the line bad and will cease work your own interest you are protected from getting faulty plaintext you know just like checksum for your own safety the monitoring agencies won have the famous black box which needed for actual decryption and will kept the fbi but nothing prevents them from using special boxes which will the redundancy check for the serial number block and consistency checks the embedded blocks within the transmission these boxes will turn red light soon they detect bitstream that violates the correct protocol don anyone think that you can use the chip and fool about the tapping key bet the developpers have provided much better checks than those suggested above course absolutely crucial that the algorithms and protocols remain secret personally doubt they will detlef lannert mail tsos uni duesseldorf pgp key via server finger lannert clio uni duesseldorf psmith you smith are you with preliminary which however not sounded wodehouse
sci.crypt	the secret source that announcement article enn news intercon com amanda intercon com amanda walker writes compuserve columbus are the corporate headquarters several major insurance companies the largest private company the world batelle memorial institute dcsc the defense construction supply center ohio state university one the three largest universities oclc the online college library center and you amazed actually don forget chemical abstracts service which pretty much the international clearinghouse for all chemical information whose former director ronald wigington and head nick farmer were openly former nsa employees james parker jap focus att com
sci.crypt	summary how sensible des towards bit errors like thank you all for the fast responses special thanks those who replied lexical order marcus ranum mjr tis com paul crowley pdc dcs pausch saaf paul schlyter tarnold vnet ibm com todd arnold wcs anchor att com bill stewart question was how sensible des encrypted data towards bit errors how much data per bit will lost average assume you still have the correct key how much the des encrypted data affected depends the used encryption mode according marcus ranum mjr tis com there cfb cipher feedback mode ecb electronic code book mode cbc cipher block chaining mode ofb output feedback mode each mode does some stuff better than others ofb and cfb are designed for communications streams more than for files unfortunally people strongly disagree which mode will lead destruction all the following data sure seems that some modes will resync quite fast others will never others will even only effect the very block summarized people said concerning this matter cbc mode only the current block will affected tarnold vnet ibm com todd arnold you use cbc cihper block chaining then the remainder the data will destroyed well pausch saaf paul schlyter cfb mode des synchronizes quite fast probably within block according maracus ranum mjr tis com maybe someone definitely knows what happens which mode nevertheless thank you all very much again axel dunkel include the responses got from tarnold vnet ibm com todd arnold cat axel dunkel writes how sensible des encrypted data towards bit errors how much data per bit will lost average assume you still have the correct key depends the mode you using for single bit input block one bit error will have percent chance corrupting each the output bits other words essentially turns the output block into random number you encrypting data cbc mode however only the one bit block will affected the next block and all that follow will decrypted properly good idea have some kind error correction your system corrupted bits are likely todd from pausch saaf paul schlyter article cat you write hello how sensible des encrypted data towards bit errors how much data per bit will lost average assume you still have the correct key least bytes data will destroyed one bit encrypted data error you use cbc cihper block chaining then the remainder the data will destroyed well des very seisitive for single bit errors this should paul schlyter swedish amateur astronomer society saaf nybrogatan stockholm sweden internet pausch saaf from paul crowley pdc dcs how sensible des encrypted data towards bit errors how much data per bit will lost average assume you still have the correct key probably very bad you might lose the rest the data stream you want safety against dropped bits use error correcting coder like the freeware gnu ecc paul crowley pdc dcs trust know what doing fold fish for jesus from wcs anchor att com how sensible des encrypted data towards bit errors how much data per bit will lost average assume you still have the correct key depends the mode you using des electronic code book ecb takes block input bits and produces output bits any bits are changed the entire block bits becomes bad forget which feedback mode which all them the results encrypting one block affect later blocks with some modes the system self synchronizes errors are repaired few blocks with other modes once one block bad all later blocks will bad too there also the framing problem you have bit change the block that changes and maybe later blocks also change but you have bits lost bits added bits bits out everything confused after that from marcus ranum mjr tis com depends the mode you using cfb for example synchronises pretty fast figure bit error will destroy the current block and the next one mjr experience what you get you don get what you want systemberatung axel dunkel koenigsberger strasse kriftel germany mail cat voice fax
sci.crypt	clipper considered harmful restated and amplified brad optilink com brad yearwood writes article apr lehman com pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger writes you obviously haven read the information about the system the chips put out serial number infomation into the cypher stream allow themselves identified the system does not rely registering people owning particular phone units against the proposal but lets accurate our objections not presume tell what have and have not read the system may not rely upon registering people owning particular phone units but necessary know which phone units are likely used for some suspected criminal communication before you can obtain their unit keys from escrow big deal you are legitimate law enforcement agent and have legitimate wiretap order you just listen the line for minutes get the serial number and then take the order and the escrow agencies you notice the criminal now using different phone instrument take your still valid wiretap order the escrow agency with the new serial number this provides opportunities for abuse law enforcement but thats not what are discussing right now oppose clipper but the mechanics here are simple and easy understand the whole rest your article based large series false premises all predicated the notion that this simple act somehow impossible feel free presume tell you that you not seem understand the mechanics the proposal arguing that terrorists will killing people for their clipper phones silly because its pointless lets alarmist about what really would show problem shall perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer monde lui meme
sci.crypt	overreacting was once tapped your code good any more jhan debra dgbt doc jerry han writes article rens apr stimpys imsi com rens imsi com rens troost writes this giant bally over this clipper chip noticed rather disturbing trend some the mail and posts tossing back and forth too tendency the part some people hide their head the sand never advocated hiding the sand advocating peaceful solution while peaceful solution possible unless you want blood your hands one has mentioned violence other than you han believe you are imagining things perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer monde lui meme
sci.crypt	does rush read his mail article apr esseye com jongsma tws com writes apr henson wwu edu henson wwu edu sean dean writes but have idea compuserve mail address compuserve com however said his radio show today that won read anything from the two alt groups simply deletes them without reading them says that some the people the two groups are vicious ken jongsma smiths industries jongsma swdev com grand rapids michigan compuserve com
sci.crypt	new encryption algorithm article shockwave win net jhupp shockwave win net jeff hupp writes article raeir access digex net steve access digex com steve brinich writes some deleted unlike the cia the nsa has prohibition against domestic spying read bamford the puzzle palace bruce have that book and the way read one side the conversation must from outside the united states coures that ass mes that the nsa plays the rules one thing that seems ambiguous whether signal being echoed down from geosynchronous orbit from outside the united states also being able assess whether nsa playing the rules requires knowing what the rules are only know subset for those even more suspicious there could other surveillance organizations blacker than the nsa bryan allen bryan devvax jpl nasa gov telos corp jpl
sci.crypt	dorothy denning opposes clipper capstone wiretap chips the security the system does depend only the secrecy the keys the ability tap inherent insecurity which depends fundamentally the secrecy the algorithm spell out because many people seem miss the point the algorithm were published anyone could create chip which would work correctly with the skipjack chips but which would not have its key registered believe there technical means ensuring key escrow without the government maintaining secret some kind for example the secret could the private keys the escrow agencies their digital signatures would required before key could used this case the nsa nist whoever has decided that protecting the entire algorithm easier cheaper more secure than other possible protocols kian tat lim ktl wag caltech edu genie lim materials molecular simulation center caltech henry spencer left margaret puckette signature fan
sci.crypt	help where faq for sci crypt and other questions dear netters have been scanning this news group for while but has not found faq could someone enlight where find the faq there one also could someone recommend few good books about encription and decription about patent information goverment regulation this science technology will appreciate any your help very much sincerely chen
sci.crypt	dorothy denning opposes clipper capstone wiretap chips article allen well allen well allen barrett ethridge writes apr eff org mnemonic eff org mike godwin writes article agora rain com jhart agora rain com jim hart writes the security the system should depend only the secrecy the keys and not the secrecy the algorithms dorothy denning cite source please cryptography and data security page perhaps thanks got that from two other sources well the full quote follows from dorothy denning cryptography and data security addison wesley page cryptosystems must satisfy three general requirements the enciphering and deciphering transformations must efficient for all keys the system must easy use the security the system should depend only the secrecy the keys and not the secrecy algorithms enciphering deciphering mike mike godwin ariel rose godwin mnemonic eff org born cambridge pounds ounces inches long eff cambridge new citizen the electronic frontier
sci.crypt	suggestions for escrow agencies was more technical details article vcd com johne vcd com john eaton writes paul robichaux robichau lambda msfc nasa gov wrote private citizen would feel much more secure person and papers knowing that organization committed individual civil liberties the aclu and the nra come mind was safeguarding half key both the aclu and the nra are resistent government pressure the simple expedient fact that they are not supported funded overtly controlled the government thats one problem that has far been overlooked these two escrow agencies will have create secure database and service the input and output keys who pays for this they refuse illegal request from some congressman deliver key can their budget cut punish them will congress forced fund them forever congress isn forced anything not even follow their own rules isn expedient caught with their collective pants down they make some funny noises perhaps crucify skapegoat two then continue business usual notice those senators involved with the scandal weren hurt too much all deconcini personal stake suppliers those big aerostats hasn affected his credibility all inside congress least still pushing his police state agenda the problem that laws can change congress may pass law setting escrow agency with instructions that keys are private some future congress may change that law suppose pre nazi germany had clipper system you think the escrow agencies would have told hitler that could not have the keys without valid court order will like the old saw new jersey and new york chicago etc when the politicians promised that this spiffy new gun registration law will not used for future confiscation purposes sure enough few years later when they were used just for that purpose and folks complained the response was well didn make that promise some politicians may not even wait few years escrowed keys would have the same assurances security besides someone wants snoop how are you know you don think they will send you letter saying are now snooping your private conversations you what are the assurances the escrow people will not forbidden report any access attempts for one keys much for government assurances privacy effect you must set escrow agencies fourth branch the goverment and isolate them from any outside interferance they will able directly tap into federal funds with accountability anyone except through court challenge how the feds will just change the law just ignore nothing new here they got the muscle the resources the guns aside since export crypto verboten because itar shouldn the second amendment also come into play here john eaton vcd johne pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	screw the people crypto for hard core hackers spooks only article warlord apr podge mit edu warlord mit edu derek atkins writes article strnlghtc netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes some countries have laws about importing crypto gear believe the does without license the above scheme won work least not legally such countries including least france and the david bzzt wrong the does not have crypto import laws not sure about that are there any munitions import laws and could those used against importation crypto hardware software well firearms importing called assault weapons for use commoners come mind note talk politics guns added newsgroups for possible feedback pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	overreacting was once tapped your code good any more article apr lehman com pmetzger snark shearson com perry metzger writes one has mentioned violence other than you han believe you are imagining things this factually incorrect there was least one message that said that waco and clipper justified anything response david david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy our information errors and omissions excepted
sci.crypt	how make this illuminating thing some hobby shop they sell flexible tube inch diameter inch ling that will illuminate you bend shake also sold amusement parks the evenings the brightness can last hours left refrigrator coldness you can prolong its life illumination this something can make ourself easily you know any reading can provide details about this stuff working with kids would nice can yourself project with minimum budget
sci.crypt	have seen the lobby and article xxga gav uky edu morgan engr uky edu wes morgan writes you should realize that form letters are the worst way influence your congresscritters exact copies are routinely placed the lowest rung the opinion ladder you want write and think you should take the time really write letter things emphasize excellent and helpful list deleted concise don ramble rants are definitely out place cite references necessary but only use accepted references like academic journals neighbor jim not real refer ence wes list and don for writing your congressional representatives fine one but like encourage people pay extra attention the point above cliched the saying may nevertheless true that you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar while the writing styles prevalent the net possess certain charm please remember that the person reading your letter likely uninfluenced negatively influenced you express your concerns way that makes you sound like flake paranoid crackpot wild and unsupported accusations about the menace from the nsa will not carry much weight nor are overblown conclusions about the inevitable consequences the proposal likely convince especially not ones that attempt strained analogies the rise the nazi party please save the niemoller quote for another letter you want your opinions taken seriously very important that you state those opinions manner that understandable and seems reasonable layman don overburden your reader with technical details expect them know the history various encryption technologies before you mail hand your letter non technical friend and ask them sanity check above all realize that legislators are often motivated much self interest anything else try point out risks terms that will meaningful and motivating them such the loss individual privacy rights the damage restrictive export regulations american businesses ability compete the global marketplace pull the strings that you think will work with your legislator your legislator unlikely swayed civil rights concerns then point out how government granted monopoly for mycotronx damages the competitiveness businesses your district that manufacture market phone crypto technology mcnally
sci.crypt	secret algorithm clipper chip and crypto key escrow strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes well that explains the government has real need spy people who already love big brother the people who are inclined talk back who need watched though think this overstatement does contain grain truth drug dealers spies terrorists and organized crime figures assuming enough probable cause convince judge who need watched not law abiding citizens and thus cointelpro which horrible people who threatened the republic disagreeing with the government were systematically kept track for years perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire laissez passer monde lui meme
sci.crypt	forbidden reveal wiretap forbidden inform someone police wiretap their phone then legal work privtely sweeper and report the person you work for whether you found bug
sci.crypt	clipper and backdoors david sternlight says discredits the writer with third parties claim clipper has back door does not actually david don think any more intellectually honest say there are backdoors than say there are backdoors unless you had chance examine the algorithm and the silicon closely for all know skipjack could easily broken impossible break and clearly skipjack not secure then the clipper chip not worth much john kelsey
sci.crypt	clipper considered harmful sternlight writes gideon yuval writes these personal attacks are what stopped prof denning from replying issues substance they have cause real harm the serious debate here they are and they have prof denning afraid posting here due personal attacks perhaps she should use anonymous posting service that why they are there allow heated debate occur without the personal attacks anon penet back yet thomas
sci.crypt	subliminal channels dss may suggest that any any proposed cipher system having less entropy than the user key and message can have embedded subliminal channel big the difference entropies between the entropy the user input message and the entropy the output for example take plain des the unsuspecting user inputs string plaintext enciphered cranks the algorithm which has been hacked george quisling and comes out with nine char and nine chars out right the unsepecting user ships the ciphertext decrpyted and the message plaintext produced everything fine right nope imagine the algorithm did compression plaintext before desing compressing down four characters with more entropy the opponent now pads the message with his own message also compressed before applying des the concatenated compressed pairs when decrpyted the first compressed message stripped off and declared sent unbeknowst the receiver the opponents accomplice collects the remaining message the bit bucket and uncompresses kill now and prevent all such subliminal covert storage channels you would need have maximal entropy all the time which priori impossible because for example stereotypical message might replaced one bit the output reserving the rest the output bits for the long covert message other words you opponent get muck with the algorithm you either have got muck with last concede his possible embedding covert channels other words you present message opponet with less than maximal entropy then you have given him free bits storage grady netcom com
sci.crypt	letter about clipper david reeve sward sward cmu edu writes don know this the algorithm classified speculate from the mykotronx data sheet the myk that the algorithm classified cryptosystem similar application des but cleared the nsa for classified traffic that has been use for number years myktotronx refers government type encryption which matches the designation one the types encryption available stu iii phones and may the same cryptosystem have heard called cipher this would make sense since this evidently field proven cryptosystem which can act pin compatible substitute for des combined with tappable key exchange protocol this would offer exactly what claimed for clipper secure encryption with access via key escrow this fact the case would make quite confident the encipherment algorithm itself now not know these are fact the same cryptosystem knowledge classified cryptography isn even fuzzy nonexistent however would certainly have been the least effort approach the part the government take old military cipher that people can drop place des and which least secure set key escrow scheme for law enforcement and promote for public use this also fits with mykotronx who been around but almost invisible for years has anyone else made this sort connection just hallucinating pink elephants here curiousity has been piqued amanda walker intercon systems corporation
sci.crypt	clipper chip from article cyberia win net johnston cyberia win net robert johnston encryption technologies are currently reguarded arms the feds hence the export ban while the second under enough attack for guarrentteing our rights fire arms perhaps should reflect this well perhaps fire arms are not the only weapons covered under the second amendment hmmm wouldn consider encryption weapon how would the government classify encryption seems that encryption ought covered the first amendment using this line reasoning the government shouldn able restrict what data people encrypt and what encryption algorithms they use because this would restricting one freedom speech other words encrypted data text graphics other information just another form free speech for this reason the government shouldn able regulate the use encryption algorithms and encrypted data the only time the government should able force someone reveal his her encryption keys for some encrypted data when the encrypted data question may something that isn protected the first amendment such kiddy porn even case like this the government should required get search warrant before coercing someone into revealing the keys btw what encryption methods are considered state the art nowdays have the feds relaxed export restrictions des yet also des still regarded good form encryption robert johnston johonston cyberia win net scott kennedy brewer and patriot before david koresh cheap thug who interprets the bible through the barrel gun atf spokesman after the atf cheap thug who interprets the constitution through the barrel gun batf cigarette cops fbi fuehrer bureau incineration
sci.crypt	clipper chip reverse engineering have been looking over the postings about the clipper chip and noticed interesting omission from the discussion you all mention that the algorithm classified and have expressed concerns and ideas how figure out the algorithm using software the question that have why cant someone take one these chips and reverse engineer mean take the thing chip testing analysis facility one with decent electron microscope just pry off the top the chip and start scanning with the electron microcope and figure out the circuitry remembered place that use work for had one these facilities that they used analyze chips that accidently blew out while running tests they could actually find the area that was fried and show where the circuit was sure that many companies and universities must have these facilities and that the potential there especially university where the security such facility looser for someone take clipper apart and analyze what can the government prevent this start taking away all microchip analysis facilities and electron microscopes mark
sci.crypt	have seen the lobby and article apr yuma acns colostate edu lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons writes think that most can afford stamp and envelope and the cost printing out letter some kind soul out there would write letter and upload the net everyone could capture print out and snail mail out their local congressional critter btw working one dear senator congressman president fill the blank writing you voice strong opposition president clinton clipper chip initiative this proposal establish secret government designed cryptography chip with government key registration the standard for voice encryption very disturbing the idea that citizens must register their secrets with the government just case they are trying keep them secret patently unamerican additionally the press release for this program strongly implied that other forms cryptography would banned after the clipper chip standard place this latest attack our civil rights deeply disturbing and frankly voting issue for the presidents press release stated that the plan strikes balance between the legitimate needs law enforcement and citizens right privacy but this not the case the fact that since other strong cryptographic equipment avalible the criminals drug dealers and terrorists mentioned the press release will simply use non clipper cryptography meanwhile the average citizen may gain protection against warentless wiretaps the government since the government escrowed key derived deterministicly from the unit serial number which broadcast the chip durring its opperation this seems like obvious back door for the nsa and law enforcement you still nott understand objection key registration consider the way edgar hoover blackmailed government officials like yourself would you now use phone transmit personal details your life that the nsa and fbi have the keys well heres letter didnt spell check since dont know how emacs you might want that bill smythe
sci.crypt	overreacting was once tapped your code good any more article rahul net dhesi rahul net rahul dhesi writes rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes how come the media not telling about the provisions the clipper decision how can the bulk the people informed when the media refuses the answer your second question lies the way you phrased the first one the media the medis isn the media are media means more than one medium there are thousands publications some say this some say that how can the bulk the people informed when they won read informative publications because much the public aren even aware the names informative publications look the wealth material the typical newsstand unless the person working some kind technical environment with the usual trade journals all they ever see the media note media this context the popular media radio daily newspapers and such publications time newsweek and all that and they all say pretty much the same thing see most them being the range center left far left and generally supportive pie sky will take care you think for you cradle grave there seems air arrogance that the individual not capable understanding major issues the media doesn bother inform them with clipper for example tells the people how interpret events others what lost sight that the people are not good understanding things because they are not told accurate information about them lot expect the people for them clarirvoyant for example would have been unaware clipper had not picked usenet how much the population has usenet let alone internet access for access better publications the person has spend time digging many folks especially who work long hours have families etc not have time digging and many are not yet aware things are wrong are not motivated dig not saying its right just saying that the way things are people aren upset about things when they aren told and the less than objective media major contributer the problem and then compound that with attitude arrogance the civil service bureaucrats politicians that act the person without political connections deep pockets potential contributer should have few any rights being resource used those control for their polticial financial gain some law enforcement agencies act they regard the common person with rather intense degree contempt peons that are supposed what they are told and get very nasty when someone questions them the media pundits editors etc tend fall into those with privilege and tend not upset the current state affairs the fellow who shot the swimmer his jacuzzi for daring swim with illegally owned gun violating the law pushed foisted everyone else ends walking where less well connected person would have been crucified typical example one standard for much more restrictive standard for other folk perhaps not real eloquent expressing this but the solution sure hell not make harder for people find out what going dismiss their concerns because one happens position where one feels they are exempt insulated such that hypocrite journalist described above one notices that these less than complimentary points about that double standard was not covered the media feel the reason was dovetailed with their political views the subject and involved brother journalist isn time for our objective media the main source info for the average person start being what they claim instead spin doctors for the statist elements rahul dhesi dhesi rahul net also dhesi cirrus com pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	clipper considered harmful article strnlghtc netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes article apr microsoft com gideony microsoft com gideon yuval writes these personal attacks are what stopped prof denning from replying issues substance they have cause real harm the serious debate here they are and they have are you contact with her that what she said what you think her reason also could possible that she not replying because she has reply that wouldn confirm the worst suspicions the suspicions are way out pocket one would think the person would there saying and indicating why they are out pocket hiding behind veil secrecy not reassuring pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and not sure about the former albert einstien
sci.crypt	from crossbows cryptography begin pgp signed message please note that the following speech was made chuck hammill address all letters his address given the end this document russell from crossbows cryptography thwarting the state via technology given the future freedom conference november you know technology and particularly computer technology has often gotten bad rap libertarian cir cles tend think orwell terry gilliam brazil the proximity detectors keeping east berlin slave citizens their own side the border the phisticated bugging devices nixon used harass those his enemies list recognize that for the price ticket the concorde can fly twice the speed sound but only first walk thru magnetometer run government policeman and permit him paw thru our longings beeps but think that mind set mistake before there were cattle prods governments tortured their prisoners with clubs and rubber hoses before there were lasers for eavesdropping governments used binoculars and lip readers though government certainly uses technology oppress the evil lies not the tools but the wielder the tools fact technology represents one the most promis ing avenues available for capturing our freedoms from those who have stolen them its very nature favors the bright who can put use over the dull who can not favors the adaptable who are quick see the merit the new over the sluggish who cling time tested ways and what two better words are there scribe government bureaucracy than dull and sluggish one the clearest classic triumphs technology over tyranny see the invention the man portable crossbow with untrained peasant could now reliably and lethally engage target out fifty meters even that target were mounted chain mailed knight unlike the longbow which admittedly was more powerful and could get off more shots per unit time the crossbow required formal training utilize whereas the longbow required elaborate visual tactile and kinesthetic coordination achieve any degree accuracy the wielder crossbow could simply put the weapon his shoulder sight along the arrow itself and reasonably assured hitting his tar get moreover since just about the only mounted knights likely visit your average peasant would government soldiers and tax collectors the utility the device was plain with the common rabble could defend themselves not only against one another but against their governmental masters was the medieval equivalent the armor piercing bullet and consequently kings and priests the medieval equivalent bureau alcohol tobacco and crossbows threatened death and excommunication respec tively for its unlawful possession looking later developments see how technology like the firearm particularly the repeating rifle and the handgun later followed the gatling gun and more advanced machine guns radically altered the balance interpersonal and inter group power not without reason was the colt called the equalizer frail dance hall hostess with one her possession was now fully able protect herself against the brawniest roughneck any saloon advertise ments for the period also reflect the merchandising the repeating cartridge rifle declaring that man horseback armed with one these rifles simply cannot captured and long his captors were relying upon flintlocks single shot rifles the quote doubtless true one updating now the present the public key cipher with personal computer run represents equiv alent quantum leap defensive weapon not only can such technique used protect sensitive data one own possession but can also permit two strangers change information over insecure communications channel wiretapped phone line for example skywriting for that matter without ever having previously met exchange cipher keys with thousand dollar com puter you can create cipher that multi megabuck cray can crack year within few years should economically feasible similarly encrypt voice communi cations soon after that full color digitized video images technology will not only have made wiretapping obsolete will have totally demolished government control over formation transfer like take just moment sketch the mathemat ics which makes this principle possible this algorithm called the rsa algorithm after rivest shamir and adleman who jointly created its security derives from the fact that very large number the product two very large primes then extremely difficult obtain the two prime factors from analysis their product tremely the sense that primes and have digits apiece then their digit product cannot gen eral factored less than years the most powerful computer now existence the public part the key consists the prod uct the two large primes and and one fac tor call the product where the private part the key consists the other factor each block the text encrypted first turned into integer either using ascii even simple representation this integer then raised the power modulo and the resulting integer then sent the encrypted message the receiver decrypts taking this integer the secret power modulo can shown that this process will always yield the original number started with what makes this groundbreaking development and why called public key cryptography that can openly publish the product and the number while keeping secret the number that anyone can send encrypted message namely mod but only can recover the original message taking what they send raising the power and taking the result mod the risky step meeting exchange cipher keys has been eliminated people who may not even trust each other enough want meet may still reliably change encrypted messages each party having selected and disseminated his own and his while maintaining the secrecy his own another benefit this scheme the notion dig ital signature enable one authenticate the source given message normally want send you message raise plaintext your and take the result mod your and send that however message take the plaintext and raise secret power take the result mod then raise that result your mod your and send this then even after you have normally decrypted the message will still look like garbage however you then raise public power and take the result mod public you will not only recover the ori ginal plaintext message but you will know that one but could have sent you since one else knows secret and these are the very concerns the way that are day tormenting the soviet union about the whole question personal computers the one hand they recognize that american schoolchildren are right now growing with com puters commonplace sliderules used more fact because there are things computers can which will interest and instruct and year olds and pre cisely these students who one generation hence will going head head against their soviet counterparts for the soviets hold back might suicidal continuing teach swordsmanship while your adversaries are learning ballistics the other hand whatever else personal computer may also exquisitely efficient copying machine floppy disk will hold upwards words text and can copied couple minutes this weren threatening enough the computer that performs the copy can also encrypt the data fashion that all but unbreakable remember that soviet society publicly cessible xerox machines are unknown the relatively few copying machines existence are controlled more inten sively than machine guns are the united states now the conservative position that should not sell these computers the soviets because they could use them weapons systems the liberal position that should sell them the interests mutual trade and cooperation and anyway don make the sale there will certainly some other nation willing for part ready suggest that the libertarian position should give them the soviets for free and necessary make them take them and that doesn work load blackbird and air drop them over moscow the middle the night paid for private sub scription course not taxation confess that this not position that has gained much support among members the conventional left right political spectrum but ter all the words one illuminatus characters are political non euclideans the shortest distance particular goal may not look anything like what most people would consider straight line taking long enough world view arguable that breaking the soviet govern ment monopoly information transfer could better lead the enfeeblement and indeed the ultimate dissolution the soviet empire than would the production another dozen missiles aimed moscow but there the rub long enough world view does suggest that the evil the oppressive the coercive and the simply stupid will get what they deserve but what not immediately clear how the rest can escape being killed enslaved pauperized the process when the liberals and other collectivists began tack freedom they possessed reasonably stable healthy functioning economy and almost unlimited time proceed hamstring and dismantle policy political gradualism was least conceivable but now have patchwork crazy quilt economy held together baling wire and spit the state not only taxes feed the poor while also inducing farmers slaughter milk cows and drive food prices then simultaneously turns around and sub sidizes research into agricultural chemicals designed crease yields milk from the cows left alive witness the fact that decline the price oil considered potentially frightening comparable increase few years ago when the price went were told the economy risked collapse for for want energy the price increase was called the moral equivalent war and the feds swung into action for the first time american history the speed which you drive your car work the morning came issue federal concern now when the price oil drops again risk problems this time because ameri can oil companies and third world basket case nations who sell oil may not able ever pay their debts our grossly over extended banks the suggested panacea that government should now raise the oil prices that opec has lowered via new oil tax since the government seeking raise oil prices about the same extent opec did what can call this except the moral equivalent civil war the government against its own people and classically international trade can you imag ine any entity the world except government going court claiming that vendor was selling goods too cheaply and demanding not only that that naughty vendor compelled the court raise its prices but also that punished for the act lowering them the first place while the statists could afford take couple hundred years trash our economy and our liberties certainly cannot count having equivalent period stability which reclaim them contend that there exists almost black hole effect the evolution nation states just the evolution stars once free dom contracts beyond certain minimum extent the state warps the fabric the political continuum about itself the degree that subsequent emergence freedom becomes all but impossible good illustration this can seen the area called welfare payments when those who sup the public trough outnumber and thus outvote those whose taxes must replenish the trough then what possible choice has democracy but perpetuate and expand the tak ing from the few for the unearned benefit the many down the nearest welfare office find just two people the dole and recognize that between them they form voting bloc that can forever outvote you the question who owns your life and the fruits your life labor essentially those who love liberty need edge some sort ultimately going prevail obvi ously can use the altruists other directedness work slave suffer sacrifice that next generation billion random strangers can live better world recognize that however immoral such appeal might nonetheless extremely powerful one today culture you can convince people work energetically for cause caring only enough for their personal welfare remain alive enough and healthy enough continue working then you have truly massive reservoir energy draw from equally clearly this just the sort peal which tautologically cannot utilized for egoistic libertarian goals were stand before you tonight and say something like listen follow enunciate noble cause contribute your money support the cause give your free time work for the cause strive selflessly bring about and then after you and your children are dead maybe your children children will actu ally live under egoism you all think gone mad and course you right because the point trying make that libertarianism and egoism will spread when and individual libertarians and egoists find profitable and enjoyable and probably only then while certainly not disparage the concept poli tical action don believe that the only nor even necessarily the most cost effective path toward increasing freedom our time consider that for fraction the investment time money and effort might expend try ing convince the state abolish wiretapping and all forms censorship can teach every libertarian who terested how use cryptography abolish them unilaterally there maxim proverb generally attributed the eskimoes which very likely most libertarians have ready heard and while you likely would not quarrel with the saying you might well feel that you heard often enough already and that has nothing further teach and moreover that maybe you even tired hearing shall therefore repeat now you give man fish the saying runs you feed him for day but you teach man how fish you feed him for lifetime your exposure the quote was probably some sort workfare welfare context namely that you genuinely wish help someone need you should teach him how earn his sustenance not simply how beg for and course this true only because the next time hungry there might not anybody around willing even able give him fish whereas with the information how fish completely self sufficient but submit that this exhausts only the first order content the quote and there were nothing further glean from would have wasted your time citing again after all seems have almost crypto altruist slant though imply that should structure our tivities maximize the benefits such hungry beggars may encounter but consider suppose this eskimo doesn know how fish but does know how hunt walruses you the other hand have often gone hungry while traveling thru walrus country because you had idea how catch the damn things and they ate most the fish you could catch and now suppose the two you decide exchange information bartering fishing knowledge for hunting knowledge well the first thing observe that transaction this type categorically and unambiguously refutes the marxist premise that every trade must have winner and loser the idea that one person gains must necessarily the expense another person who loses clearly under this scenario such not the case each party has gained some thing did not have before and neither has been dimin ished any way when comes exchange information rather than material objects life longer zero sum game this extremely powerful notion the law diminishing returns the first and second laws thermodynamics all those laws which constrain our possi bilities other contexts longer bind now that anarchy consider another possibility suppose this hungry eskimo never learned fish because the ruler his nation state had decreed fishing illegal because fish contain dangerous tiny bones and sometimes sharp spines tells the state has decreed that their consumption and even their possession are too hazardous the people health permitted even knowledgeable willing adults perhaps because citizens bodies are thought government property and therefore the function the state punish those who improperly care for govern ment property perhaps because the state gener ously extends competent adults the benefits provides children and the mentally ill namely full time all pervasive supervisory conservatorship that they need not trouble themselves with making choices about behavior thought physically risky morally naughty but any case you stare stupefied while your eskimo informant lates how this law taken seriously that friend his was recently imprisoned for years for the crime pos session nine ounces trout with intent distribute now you may conclude that society grotesquely oppressive enforce law this type simply affront the dignity all human beings you may far ther and decide commit some portion your discretion ary recreational time specifically the task thwarting this tyrant goal your rationale may altruistic the sense wanting liberate the oppressed egoistic the sense proving you can outsmart the oppressor very likely some combination these per haps even other motives but since you have zero desire become martyr your cause you not about mount military campaign even try run boatload fish through the blockade however here that technology and particular formation technology can multiply your efficacy literally hundredfold say literally because for fraction the effort and virtually none the risk attendant smuggling hundred fish you can quite readily produce hundred xerox copies fishing instructions the tar geted government like present day america least permits open discussion topics whose implementation stricted then that should suffice but the government attempts suppress the flow information well then you will have take little more effort and perhaps write your fishing manual floppy disk encrypted according your mythical eskimo public key parameters but far increasing real world access fish you have made genuine nonzero headway which may continue snowball others disseminate the information you have provided and you have not had waste any your time trying convert eological adversaries even trying win over the unde cided recall harry browne dictum from freedom unfree world that the success any endeavor general inversely proportional the number people whose persua sion necessary its fulfilment you look history you cannot deny that has been dramatically shaped men with names like washington lincoln nixon marcos duvalier khadaffi and their ilk but has also been shaped people with names like edison curie marconi tesla and wozniak and this latter shaping has been least per vasive and not nearly bloody and that where trying take the libertech project rather than beseeching the state please not slave plunder constrain propose libertarian net work spreading the technologies which may seize freedom for ourselves but here must bit careful while not present illegal encrypt information when government wants spy you there guarantee what the ture may hold there have been bills introduced for exam ple which would have made crime wear body armor when government wants shoot you that you were commit certain crimes while wearing kevlar vest then that fact would constitute separate federal crime its own this law knowledge has not passed yet but does indicate how government thinks other technological applications however indeed pose legal risks recognize for example that anyone who helped pre civil war slave escape the underground railroad was making clearly illegal use technology the sovereign government the united states america that time found the buying and selling human beings quite acceptable the buying and selling cattle simi larly during prohibition anyone who used his bathtub ferment yeast and sugar into the illegal psychoactive drug alcohol the controlled substance wine was using technol ogy way that could get him shot dead federal agents for his crime unfortunately not restored life when congress reversed itself and permitted use this drug quote former president indicted conspirator and pardoned felon let make one thing perfectly clear the libertech project does not advocate participate conspire the violation any law matter how oppressive unconstitutional simply stupid such law may does engage description for educa tional and informational purposes only technological processes and some these processes like flying plane manufacturing firearm may well require appropriate censing perform legally fortunately license needed for the distribution receipt information self the next time you look the political scene and despair thinking well the nation and this state and this city have turn libertarian before free then somebody might well cut goddamn throat now and put out misery recognize that such not the case there exist ways make your self free you wish explore such techniques via the project you are welcome give your name and address fake name and mail drop for that matter and you the mailing list for erratically published newsletter any friends acquaintances whom you think would interested are welcome well not even asking for stamped self addressed envelopes since printer can handle mailing bels and actual postage costs are down the noise compared with the other efforts getting issue out you should have idea share even useful product plug glad have you write for publication even you want the proverbial free rider and just benefit from what others contribute you still welcome everything will public domain feel free copy give away sell for that matter cause you can get money for while taking full page ads trying give away you certainly entitled your capitalist profit anyway every application these principles should make the world just little freer and certainly willing underwrite that least for the forseeable ture will leave you with one final thought you don learn how beat your plowshares into swords before they outlaw swords then you sure hell ought learn before they outlaw plowshares too chuck hammill the libertech project queensbury drive los angeles california hammill netcom com the above libertech address was updated december with the permission chuck hammill russell whitaker those interested the issues raised this piece should participate least these newsgroups alt privacy alt security pgp comp org eff talk sci crypt copy the rsa based public key encryption program pgp pretty good privacy can obtained various ftp sites around the world one such site gate demon where dos version can had anonymous ftp pgp zip pub pgp versions for other operating systems including unix variants and macintosh are also available source code also available here the blurb for pgp the way quote pgp pretty good privacy ver rsa public key encryption freeware for msdos protects mail lets you communicate securely with people you never met with secure channels needed for prior exchange keys well featured and fast excellent user documentation pgp has sophisticated key management rsa conventional hybrid encryption scheme message digests for digital signatures data compression before encryption and good ergonomic design source code free filenames pgp zip executable and manuals pgp src zip sources keywords pgp pretty good privacy rsa public key encryption privacy authentication signatures email end quote russell earl whitaker whitaker eternity demon communications editor amix rwhitaker extropy the journal transhumanist thought board member extropy institute exi
sci.crypt	triple des have seen various references triple des recently could anyone tell what from context would guess that means encrypting each block times with different key each time but like sure replies email preferred our news unreliable thanks richard pgp public key available request pgp public key available request disclaimer please note that the above personal view and should not construed official comment from the jet project
sci.crypt	summary des init vector additional key the risk getting lost the clipper chip discussion give summary recent question article pqscbcnh minnie zdv uni mainz wrote the recent discussion this news group suggests that key search attack against des quite feasible now but normally des applied cbc cfb mode where one chooses random init vector bytes questions makes sense handle the init vector additional key then have bit key yes anything known about the security this key scheme can break faster than exhaustive search through the bit key space unfortunately the answer concealing the initialisation vector essentially doesn give any additional security got answers from grady netcom com mark lomas cam smb research att com that opened eyes pretty simple say encryption and decryption with key bit blocks let the initialisation vector the message blocks the cipher text blocks then encryption cipher block chaining cbc mode works the formula xor and decryption xor the attacker doesn have this only affects the first message block but she can her key search attack the situation cipher feedback cfb mode bit more complicated but similar and left exercise for the reader finally there the modified output feedback mode ofb where des whatever block cipher you use simply acts random generator with initialisation vector seed and encryption given xor here the usual known plaintext attack against xor bitstream ciphers reduces the cracking key search for klaus pommerening institut fuer medizinische statistik und dokumentation der johannes gutenberg universitaet obere zahlbacher strasse mainz germany
sci.crypt	dorothy denning opposes clipper capstone wiretap chips article agora rain com jhart agora rain com jim hart writes the security the system should depend only the secrecy the keys and not the secrecy the algorithms dorothy denning jhart agora rain com you reading far too much into this aside from the obvious fact that you shouldn hold anybody what they wrote year old book rapidly changing field like this quite simply she says that the security should not depend the secrecy the algorithm secret algorithm can still secure after all just don know only our level trust affected not the security the system the algorithm could rsa for all know which believe secure they have much better reason classify the algorithm than protect its security they want protect its market share they publish the algorithm then shortly manufacturers would make chips that implement the algorithm and standard but not use key stored escrow and course everybody would buy them the whole push this chip that establishing standard that you can only use you follow their rules they get follow their rules without enacting new laws that would fight tooth and nail quite simply with clipper established would much harder for another encryption maker define new standard make phones that can talk the leading phone companies the result tappable cryptography without laws forbidding other kinds for the populace get untappable crypto you would have build special phone that runs top this system and everybody you talk would have have indentical one that the chicken and egg crypto the government using its very special ability solve chicken and egg problems new technologies control this one way they like almost admirably clever when the eff started posed the question here what are the police going when they wake and discover they can wiretap and nobody here had answer even thought was much question then came the backdoor and digital telephony bills which fought now have their real answer the cleverest all brad templeton clarinet communications corp sunnyvale
sci.crypt	clipper chip article almaden ibm com jbs watson ibm com writes realistic for the government try keep the details the encrytion algorithm secret intends use evidence from james shearer not think they can use the eavesdropping evidence all however using the info they gather while listening they can searching the right place and find good strong evidence which they can use court question currently easy wire tap from the technical point view least anybody using the appropriate radio receiver can listen communications between car telephone and the ground station the police also obviously the clipper chip will make much more difficult for the non authorized person eavesdrop note that not write impossible the privacy will thus improve from the current situation poeple who really have something hide already not use the phone speak these things illegal operation really worth one can afford having critical data carried person rather than sending electronically the clipper chip will not change this the problem more politic foreign countries will never accept the clipper chip the access the escrow cannot directly granted their own police following their own law not the law each country will have its own escrow how then will possible monitor the international traffic will encrypted international traffic possible will there international escrow some kind thing forbidding crypted communication impractical how possible spot crypted communication the thousands megabytes data which circulate the various existing networks what about private networks and this will more and more impossible the volume electronic traffic will increrase the next years think that the clipper chip can only interesting device limit the risk for instance one girlfriend husband listening his wife communications will bring more regards security worth think its cost limited think that many privacy invasions are done not only official services but also private entities the clipper can help reducing these provided not hope too much not real danger and can helpful hoogvorst
sci.crypt	illegal transmit encrypted data afraid have disagree with you that point nsa will not tell rsa any other non dod entity anything that its eavesdropping reveals don know about that they might they find the most expedient way keep people from using something they can crack
sci.crypt	dorothy denning opposes clipper capstone wiretap chips believe there technical means ensuring key escrow without the government maintaining secret some kind not necessarily for instance the system outlined the may issue byte the process getting one public key listed for general use involves giving pieces your private key escrow agencies which calculations those pieces and forward the result the publishers the public key directory which combines these results into your listed public key you try give the escrow agencies pieces which don yield your private key when they are all put together the result that the public key listed for you wrong and you can read messages encrypted you
sci.crypt	clipper chip article apr ens dmi ens philippe hoogvorst writes forbidding crypted communication impractical how possible spot crypted communication the thousands megabytes data which circulate the various existing networks what about private networks suspect the government feels enough prevent companies from offering secure encryption services big companies don take that kind risk they too visible and have too much lose the government may not have make encryption illegal prevent its use they could credibly say ibm mit you will receive government money next year unless you follow these voluntary guidelines use encryption doubt either organization would delay making use encryption violation local policies the government gets much its power making impractical operate without getting money from the government while putting restrictions use such money that would illegal they were enacted laws john carr jfc athena mit edu
sci.crypt	let build software cryptophones for over the internet article apr wuecl wustl edu eah gauguin wustl edu edward anthony hutchins writes modify pgp allow compress decompress bit frames every msec part the project working now trying get celp and running realtime full duplex mode gotta find the source pgp and see how tough would integrate the decryption parts into the code presume you are just going use idea for the session encryption and transmit the session key with rsa david conrad his mind not for rent any god government cat talk conferencing network computer conferencing and file archive bps bps bis turbopep new users use new login available via pursuit city code midet mail address dave michigan com
sci.crypt	cryptography bibliography yesterday read article from someone who was requesting references for introductory texts cryptography although marked the article return appears have expired this site anyway one the previous occasions when this subject arose saved couple articles which made suggestions one the articles contained quite impressive bibliography the poster the request anyone else would like email would glad send out copies these recommendations including the bibliography david conrad his mind not for rent any god government cat talk conferencing network computer conferencing and file archive bps bps bis turbopep new users use new login available via pursuit city code midet mail address dave michigan com
sci.crypt	clipper crap wed apr gmt kckluge eecs umich edu karl kluge said shaun hughes writes newsgroups sci crypt from sphughes sfsuvax sfsu edu shaun hughes date sat apr gmt just random passing thought but can anyone cite documented use encryption technology criminals and terrorists excluding the iran contra gang sure the rum runners prohibition see kahn the codebreakers the irony was they were using better codes and key security than most governments were and fidel castro che guerra they used one time pads think was scientific american article about quantum cryptography
sci.crypt	organized lobbying for cryptography article hcs transfer stratus com cme ellisun stratus com carl ellison writes article jgbinn eli yale edu jgfoot minerva cis yale edu writes perhaps these encryption only types would defend the digitized porn was posted encrypted paraphrase may not agree with what you encrypting but defend your right encrypt suppose after waco only prudent leave the the death part out rob stampfli rob colnet cmhnet org the neat thing about standards ham radio jyv there are many choose from
sci.crypt	tempest article apr lynx dac northeastern edu angel foghorn leghorn coe northeastern edu writes heard somewhere can name the source that tempest does not necessarily pick just crts but can pick emissions from almost any chip that true the kind monitor would not make any difference becuase everything the screen can picked from the video controller can anybody verify refute this you are correct several times tempest codeword for standard shared between the nato governments limit the inadvertent emission information either electromagnetic radiation conduction the limits set the standard are classified but there open source information the effect that either the electrical magnetic components electromagnetism can exploited basic rule physics that there electromagnetic field associated with any path that conducts flow electrons among other things drive korean built clone and associated pin dotmatrix printer the major source unintentional emission the crt that can added the video driver card the parallel cable and the printer head the emissions from these are gross can detected with the crudest equipment were apply good test equipment and some intelligence measuring emission levels would find many other potential sources leaked information where cryptography used for serious purposes poor tempest protection becomes important security hazard the early eighties the need allow some commercial concerns particularly financial institutions level protection against tempest threat led series briefings invited corporations and the release cut down tempest stansard for commercial use say release for while equipment meet the standard available price and approved customers afaik even the commercial standard remains classified you think about would really have wouldn owen lewis tele fax eloka consultancy project management oml eloka demon pgp public key request
sci.crypt	clipper not good enough for government this stupid won cost more those companies hoping serve the gov and private markets they don use the same technology would guess that they won use clipper all what they will use their stu iiis amoung themselves and the governmental agencies they need talk and ignore clipper after all not secure enough for the agency department they are communicating with why should the coprations trust jeff hupp internet jhupp shockwave win net medowglen apt contract programming novell houston texas network design and support voice the best govenment doesn
sci.crypt	from crossbows cryptography but think that mind set mistake before there were cattle prods governments tortured their prisoners with clubs and rubber hoses before there were lasers for eavesdropping governments used binoculars and lip readers though government certainly uses technology oppress the evil lies not the tools but the wielder the tools evil and good walk hand hand also important note that the good the tools lies the wielder the tools fact technology represents one the most promis ing avenues available for capturing our freedoms from those who have stolen them cannot accept this ridiculous leap logic technology neutral good evil when technology used evil men called evil technology when used good men called good technology really just technology that allows action realized more efficently and larger scale its very nature favors the bright who can put use over the dull who can not try not confused the development technology with its use certainly bright people will better creating technology but even young children know how program vcr machines are vcr machines not extremely complex create favors the adaptable who are quick see the merit the new over the sluggish who cling time tested ways adaptibility and flexibility always better enduring than the stiff and stubborn young child soft and supple old man stiff and inflexible dripping water can cut through stone this has nothing with technology rather technology just allows magnify action and what two better words are there scribe government bureaucracy than dull and sluggish have objection this joshp cmu edu silent thunder
sci.crypt	how make this illuminating thing article innguj dns nmsu edu jcho dante nmsu edu cho writes father having worked for american cyanamid for sometime did mention that the recipe secret neither know just how toxic the stuff but you can synthesize simliar substance that available just about any organic lab called luminol you can usually find this organic lab book something similiar these substances are normally not the secret but how get them the method preperation normally patented which means that one else can make the chemical the same way without undergoing agreement with american cyanamid but guess you knew what patent you know what substance used you also know its toxicity rumor has that luminol some base form for the stuff used the light sticks the luminol reaction has the disadvantage not lasting long the commercial version remember that cyano compounds are found nature and not all are poisonous regards poser chem eng iii university pretoria fidonet rolf poser fidonet org fastest pose babel tel
sci.crypt	illegal transmit encrypted data steve access digex com steve brinich writes afraid have disagree with you that point nsa will not tell rsa any other non dod entity anything that its eavesdropping reveals don know about that they might they find the most expedient way keep people from using something they can crack let put this way they have charter and several executive orders obey among other things which explicitly prohibit sharing this information unless things have changed withing the last little while suppose they could ignore they choose but doubt they would for authoritative look the nsa get bamford the puzzle palace that all can say ralph
sci.crypt	organized lobbying for cryptography marc tanda isis org marc thibault writes looking from here the frozen north looks like you could worse than get the nra involved they have kindred problem large number voters the right attitude and lots funds they also have lot the other voters really irritated them from ethical constitutional viewpoint haven seen good argument for cryptographic rights that doesn also support the nra position guns and vice versa okay folks know the minority this issue but can let this assertion unchallenged yet again going say this only once the hopes not starting flame war off the main topic guns are offensive cryptography defensive see the difference the only way you can use gun hurt somebody else crypto graphy helps prevent other people from hurting you sorry for the digression let not forget the issue that agree want continued access crypto technology our choice without key registration george mitchell george tessi com
sci.crypt	triple des please post news too
sci.crypt	organized lobbying for cryptography quoting amanda intercon com amanda walker article khb news intercon com george tessi com george mitchell writes guns are offensive cryptography defensive see the difference nope information properly delivered can just deadly lead the same true lemon meringue pie paul crowley pdc dcs trust know what doing fold fish for jesus
sci.crypt	stu iii general question why are people willing trust the stu iii because the government does jeff hupp internet jhupp shockwave win net medowglen apt contract programming novell houston texas network design and support voice the best govenment doesn
sci.crypt	tempest angel foghorn leghorn coe northeastern edu kirill shklovsky writes article apr infodev cam rja cam ross anderson writes heard somewhere can name the source that tempest does not necessarily pick just crts but can pick emissions from almost any chip that true the kind monitor would not make any difference becuase everything the screen can picked from the video controller can anybody verify refute this anything can emissions problem right down the video cable given the right equipment you can pick the screen paint from the cable but given any cable you must know what being sent through know the format the signal well how many wires etc
sci.crypt	clipper chip reverse engineering maa plato boeing com mark allyn writes you all mention that the algorithm classified and have expressed concerns and ideas how figure out the algorithm using software the question that have why cant someone take one these chips and reverse engineer mean take the thing chip testing analysis facility one with decent electron microscope just pry off the top the chip and start scanning with the electron microcope and figure out the circuitry remembered place that use work for had one these facilities that they used analyze chips that accidently blew out while running tests they could actually find the area that was fried and show where the circuit was sure that many companies and universities must have these facilities and that the potential there especially university where the security such facility looser for someone take clipper apart and analyze what can the government prevent this start taking away all microchip analysis facilities and electron microscopes they are using some technology developed vlsi systems the other manufacturer the clipper chips that produces chips that are supposed highly resistant reverse engineering matthew lyle matt com matt utdallas bitnet openconnect system dallas texas
sci.crypt	suggestions for escrow agencies was more technical details what are the assurances the escrow people will not forbidden report any access attempts for one keys state already crime inform anyone law enforcement wiretap their phone even the person doing the informing learns about through non privliged means
sci.crypt	clipper considered harmful tedwards eng umd edu thomas grant edwards writes these personal attacks are what stopped prof denning from replying issues substance they have cause real harm the serious debate here they are and they have prof denning afraid posting here due personal attacks perhaps she should use anonymous posting service that why they are there allow heated debate occur without the personal attacks people are going make personal attacks prof denning whether she posts here not that much should obvious from looking the traffic over the last few weeks therefore conclude that the existence personal attacks irrelevant any decision concerning whether post suspect that prof denning actually using the attacks excuse for not posting and that the real reason for the silence that clipper not the sort proposal any self respecting cryptographer can support via reasoned argument mathew you want have constructive discussions here and more importantly taken seriously your peers you may wish consider shaping advice was offered david sternlight
sci.crypt	dorothy denning opposes clipper capstone wiretap chips brad clarinet com brad templeton writes they have much better reason classify the algorithm than protect its security they want protect its market share that one way put keeping the algorithm classified means that disclosure falls under the rubric national security nothing like federal marshalls guard monopoly the result tappable cryptography without laws forbidding other kinds for the populace agreed although this still somewhat better than the status quo get untappable crypto you would have build special phone that runs top this system and everybody you talk would have have indentical one sounds like job for the free software foundation amanda walker intercon systems corporation
sci.crypt	clipper crap kckluge eecs umich edu karl kluge writes article apr csus edu sphughes sfsuvax sfsu edu shaun hughes writes just random passing thought but can anyone cite documented use encryption technology criminals and terrorists excluding the iran contra gang just couple days ago heard the radio news that neo nazi organization had set bbs keep its members informed according the radio man the nazis were using encryption reduce their risk they were prosecuted not have any more information have fun stephan neuhaus informatik uni sig closed for inventory please leave your pickaxe outside pgp public key available request note the expiration date
sci.crypt	organized lobbying for cryptography article rdippold qualcom rdippold qualcomm com ron asbestos dippold writes george tessi com george mitchell writes guns are offensive cryptography defensive see the difference they both neutral whether they offensive defensive depends how you use them nonsense mike heinlein moon harsh mistress decides that weapon some mechanism which allows you deliver energy distance don have the book handy find the exact quote guns that cryptosystems not disclaimer all opinions expressed are own course carl ellison cme stratus com stratus computer inc bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough fax
sci.crypt	triple des richard lucock rmal jet wrote have seen various references triple des recently could anyone tell what from context would guess that means encrypting each block times with different key each time but like sure replies email preferred our news unreliable could people replying the above question post their responses here well sure others including myself would like hear them thanks jon jon saville who alive can say thou art keats jks brunel poet may not tell thy dreams pgp public key available upon request finger
sci.crypt	clipper chip questions rmrm jvb sol tis com mjr tis com marcus ranum writes about scanning clipper and reverse engineering the algorithm missing something obvious here what could have the government done address this possibility they really care stays classified yeah you missing the obvious fact that since the algorithm classified you reverse engineer from the chip and later publish build compatible chip you divulging classified information and are big load trouble don think they can that without changing the law the chip itself isn classified and reverse engineering allowed law possibly unless prohibited valid contract the algorithm may classified but there are many court cases ruling that information identical classfied information but obtained from unclassified sources freely publishable with the possible exception nuclear weapon information arthur rubin rubin dsg dse beckman com work beckman instruments brea mcimail com compuserve com arthur pnet cts com personal opinions are own and not represent those employer
sci.crypt	clipper crap article kckluge apr krusty eecs umich edu kckluge eecs umich edu karl kluge writes article apr csus edu sphughes sfsuvax sfsu edu shaun hughes writes encryption dual edge sword encryption helps protect the privacy individuals and industry but also can shield criminals and terrorists need the clipper chip and other just random passing thought but can anyone cite documented use encryption technology criminals and terrorists excluding the iran contra gang sure the rum runners prohibition see kahn the codebreakers the irony was they were using better codes and key security than most governments were yes great chapter elizabeth friedman comes shining through however the chapter also notes that these rum runners invented their own crypto hired military folks fact how that for revolving door now given that today rum runners coke runners actually have even more money than yesterday reasonable expect them have even better cryptography doubt they have chip foundry their own yet but question the fbi nist nsa how are you going make the rum runners use the clipper chip answer you not question that case your justification for taking away our rights has evaporated how you justify our loss rights you can use the drug dealers and terrorists disclaimer all opinions expressed are own course carl ellison cme stratus com stratus computer inc bkw tel fairbanks boulevard marlborough fax
sci.crypt	clipper two additional possible problems begin pgp signed message article cliftonrc tvt netcom com cliftonr netcom com pope clifton writes want talk someone don need have previously exchanged keys with him just call him and the phones establish session key for using zero knowledge algorithm something the kind misunderstood this part probably invalidates the rest this notion this lends itself spoofing buy pair clipper phones pair phone lines back room somewhere and have the digital switch programmed redirect his calls one two lines instead his whenever receives call the two phones are wired back back the clear anyone see any problem with this scheme other than assume that all public officials and phone company employees are totally incorruptible far can see matter how the session keys are generated diffie hellman whatever any cripple conversation which travels whole part over land line vulnerable this scheme law enforcement agencies can legally the telco illegally finding some part the phone line that they can cut into the degree risk depends very much location not good the middle busy street but not bad line open country leading drug lord ranch the only way defeat would your phone had the equivalent public key indexed against phone number for every phone you might want call all them totally impractical even some part the cripple algorithm could used kind public key don understand enough about these things know this sort encryption scheme only really workable over radio link and even then you could probably interevene without causing problems for other phones nearby you were physically close the target phone gosh yet another way get round cripple encryption how many that found far and that without even knowing the details the algorithm paul
sci.crypt	hardware hash function article deo uye watson ibm com basturk watson ibm com erol basturk writes the question has fast hash function been designed for hardware implementation yes you can use stream cipher chip hash data with only slight modification see fast cryptographic checksum algorithm based stream ciphers lai rueppel woolven auscrypt ross
sci.crypt	help some nut threatening sue don wish rehash the pgp patent issue all but feel that some potential misconceptions interpretting intellectual property laws need raised article rubin dsg dse beckman com rubin dsg dse beckman com arthur rubin writes pgp violates rsas patents then only executing pgp could violation distributing pgp could contributory infringement but the pgp documentation seemed sufficient protect distributors before deleted using pgp might patent violation the have need keep you are correct that executing pgp would violation unless the patent were declared invalid the courts but there question when how distributing pgp would violation the person company distributing pgp receives money for doing then clearly sale for example were compuserve they charge you for access they would selling pgp when there charge for pgp things get less clear but there would still reasonable view that inducing infringement jim bidzos you have legal action you can take unless you believe you can prove someone using pgp the for purpose other than that specifically allowed patent laws not entirely correct anyone can sue for any reason but you cannot prevail unless you can prove that prepoderance evidence under patent laws pgp does have legitimate uses means study your algorithm order produce improvements which would still require your approval execute until the patent runs out around this common misconception the patent laws not mention any valid purpose for infringing patent although clear that order create new invention either based prior patent avoid infringing prior patent one must perform research existing patent just say that you infringed patent assume not talking the rsa patent only for research purposes wink wink nudge nudge and then never develop any related invention only use would clear infringement glenn tenney voice fax tenney netcom com ham radio
sci.crypt	letter about clipper article strnlghtc bjdw mid netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes part the basis for belief that nsa have more people spend much more money and have much better hardware than anyone else the same could said for many other goverment agencies but big budgets large staffs and long lead time haven made many them into models effectiveness the fact that those outside the inner circles have only james bamford word that the people the nsa use those legendary masses computers for anything other than reading netnews like many the nsa doesn have impressive record accomplishments least not public record david sternlight great care has been taken ensure the accuracy our information errors and omissions excepted this the other hand priceless where from
sci.crypt	clipper two additional possible problems erwin trwacs trw com harry erwin writes anyone interested adopting british telecom quantum encryption scheme they demonstrated over link automatically detects wiretapping can you tell more pooka
sci.crypt	clipper two additional possible problems article erwin trwacs erwin trwacs trw com writes anyone interested adopting british telecom quantum encryption scheme they demonstrated over link automatically detects wiretapping the phone system anything thinks this should approached with great caution mark without warranty internet mark bart demon implied merchantability cis fitness for particular purpose dude click click brrr
sci.crypt	des salts article mar demax com mikel demax com mikel lechner writes you could just well use character password perform the encryption the zero bits one simple method would use the first characters encrypt the zero bits and then use the remaining characters encrypt the result again the output would still bits which encodes into ascii characters wouldn this method vulnerable against birthday attack currently cracker needs find the only key that produces the given ciphertext has try about keys the average the proposed method the cracker only needs any pair key halves can store about guesses for one half likely find mathching pair about guesses here have assumed that the des encryption reversable the key guessed this the modifications the boxes the salt bits make non reversable probably there only one key think there chance about that there are two more keys can anyone verify this but this doesn help the cracker much
sci.crypt	source code for substitution cipher was wondering anyone knew where could find source code for program solve substitution cipher thanks kevin please post your answer instead mailing directly
sci.crypt	more clipper stuff ben liberman ben genesis mcs com wrote what clipper fairly secure but leaves distinct clipper signature that what not too difficult tell that msg was clipper encrypted even you can tell the contents that case anyone who trying hide behind anther encryption scheme will stand out from all the other traffic and raise red flag the nsa etc think the obvious answer which may have been posted but haven seen encrypt your data with some other scheme then run through clipper the only way the police will able detect the other encryption through wiretap even they notice with illegal wiretap have hard time seeing judge issuing warrant for search confiscate the illegal scheme assuming that one day comes this worse case based illegal wiretap then again maybe idealist ben liberman internet ben genesis mcs com ben tai chi michael sawyer opinions are mine not necessarily nsf nasa university hawaii physical oceanography satellite remote sensing ripem public key available ofpublickey dccc
sci.crypt	advanced one time pad was more one time pad stuff you read this group for while you know all about the one time pad but here question haven seen the one time pad yeilds ideal security but has well known flaw authentication suppose you use random bit stream the pad and exclusive the encryption operation adversary knows the plaintext message can change into any other message here how works alice sending bob plaintext under key stream alice computes the ciphertext xor and sends bob eve knows the plainext but wants the message appear eve intercepts and computes xor xor xor eve sends bob bob decrypts computing xor thus receiving the false message which was substituted eve now the question how can this attack defeated with information theoretic security not just computational security can define something like ideal authentication which the analog ideal security can obtain ideal authentication not how much can limit eve control over the message can achieve ideal authentication does the solution use more key bits expand the message can show the solution optimal one more parameters does anyone know these questions have been aswered before olson umbc edu
sci.crypt	audio cds apr steve access digex net steve brinich said steve hmmm given the error corrections modern audio cds steve sufficient simply instruct your agent decrypt using steve the bit stream from the second cut the latest garth brooks steve are the usual number bit errors found acceptable steve commercial cds because that error correction enough steve garble the message such method used one unreliable data point while looking over the shoulder recording engineer decided that was seeing raw error rate about master both the extrapolation mass market cds and state mind while doing the arithmetic was waiting for him finish could get something eat are questionable tony desimone room performance analysis department crawfords corner road bell laboratories holmdel
sci.crypt	organized lobbying for cryptography article apr csus edu sphughes sfsuvax sfsu edu shaun hughes writes perhaps someone should ask zippy the pinhead for his opinion yow encrypting yet didn over this guns crypto discussion few months ago must over again
sci.crypt	one time pad authentication can think couple ways guaranteeing authenticity one time pad encrytped scheme though not sure how prove that what kind authenicity they provide obvious first attempt might prepend truly random unpredictable for eve block the message and then calculate crc which included the random starting block and all the message this could encrypted after the message the problem not sure impossible come with message that will hash the same crc regardless the random starting block intuitively seems like ought hard but not that sure clearly crypto strength hash like the sha would stronger but again not sure comfortable claiming that unbreakable scheme use some the pad bits decide how many bits include the plaintext stream before going wouldn too bad either the cost increasing the speed with which you use your pad this could used give you arbitrarily low probability that your opponent could spoof valid looking message since any deciphered plaintext spot that should carrying will show that something funny going for each message bit used one random bit decide whether insert into the plaintext stream get total pad use times the message length expand the message size about half each that should appear the plaintext stream that doesn guess for our would spoofer each bit she has guess trying see how quantify her chances making all the way through the spoofed message but gets little complicated because she can get synched and still happen have that place the spoofed message now can see simple way doing this that got secure one time pad cost using times the message length pad bits for each message bit use one random bit and xor them together get now encrypt the three bits with the one time pad the enemy has way guessing what she can guess what either any change she makes the ciphertext stream will have involve guess what was there any way this without using many pad bits spoofing the message equivalent correctly guessing many random bits there are bits the message clearly this makes spoofing messages just hard you know the whole message text you know none fact looks like this makes just hard generate spoofed message with the ciphertext without but not entirely sure about that there easier way doing this that provably secure the one time pad john kelsey
sci.crypt	authentication and one time pads was advanced one time pad article dbminnehb elang acslab umbc edu olson umbc edu bryan olson cmsc writes the one time pad yeilds ideal security but has well known flaw authentication suppose you use random bit stream the pad and exclusive the encryption operation adversary knows the plaintext message can change into any other message here how works alice sending bob plaintext under key stream alice computes the ciphertext xor and sends bob eve knows the plainext but wants the message appear eve intercepts and computes xor xor xor eve sends bob bob decrypts computing xor thus receiving the false message which was substituted eve firstly aside agree that the weakness exists but have lot trouble believing that represents difficulty real life given the purpose the one time pad give unbreakable security and the expense key distribution etc imply that the clients really want that level security these same people want keep secret find hard believe that eve might happen have copy lying around aware that the same argument applies eve knowing even small part the message but eve must know exactly where which bytes her known susequence starts the result will garbled find this least surprising back the question had the resources use one time pad for such transmissions would also append message authentication code the message using the next bits the one time pad the key perhaps your original question basically asked whether there was any way authenticate the message with the same degree security the pad itself provided and don know the answer however would propose the following for discussion alice and bob have arbitrary number secret random bits share which eve doesn know she finds them out effectively knowing some and the corresponding the fact that they correspond that causes the problem message authentication code was created using some one time pad operation such that eve could not know which parts the mac were affected which parts the input she would unable forge mac correspond what required non linear combiner parts the message non linear that simply xoring subtracting whatever doesn have exactly the same effect now the end the encrypted message alice appends bit mac computed follows means the next full chunk the one time pad compute xor and pad bit boundary with more break into bit chunks set mac initialisation vector for each chunk sequentially set mac mac nlop the end this process mac the message authentication code bob verifies the mac the obvious manner recovers the plaintext then uses some more his pad reproduce the mac the same manner nlop the non linear operator and there the rub the simplest non linear operator can think box that have fixed even published permutation the bit integers indexable table called sbox and use nlop xor sbox practically speaking think this solves your problem eve never sees the intermediate output and hence can deduce perform any valid substitution also practically speaking you want the mac fairly large say bits but you might not want gigabyte say box you might work byte sized boxes but think that irrelevant detail for the discussion hand who will first point out errors give pointer some literature greg rose australian computing and communications institute ggr acci com use the standard phrase hijacked may inadvisable caa
sci.electronics	remote control receiver article omc dynamo ecn purdue edu omc dynamo ecn purdue edu duane mantick writes freenet carleton marc dion writes for project own would like build infra red remote control receiver for regular vcrs and tvs remotes does anybody have any info tips how build such receiver particular which photo detector should use which wavelength remotes use which ics circuit should use any suggestions for circuit layout another suggestion find brand that uses remote and look the sams photofact for you can often find some very detailed schematics and parts list for not only the receiver but the transmitter well including carrier freq specs and tone decoding specs the system uses that probably won help willing bet that every manufacturer used those little self contained modules think sharp made them radio shack used sell them for few bucks maybe they still the module had leads power ground and demodulated output contained the photo detector amplifier integrator and demodulator all tiny metal can you want buy one try radio shack else repair shop can probably order one btw the carrier frequency khz and each different vcr cable box stereo manufacturer uses unique pulse scheme perform each different function their equipment jim ritterbusch ritterbus wcsu ctstateu edu radiomail net temp there art the guide says rather knack flying the knack lies learning how throw yourself the ground and miss
sci.electronics	oversampling player previous article kolstad cae wisc edu joel kolstad writes article hcbc netcom com hcb netcom com bowman writes just bought new portable player for the office and notice that proudly proclaims times oversampling the box now while think understand what oversampling the rate discrete samples exceeds the highest frequency component interest some factor don understand this times business seems that when bought first player was really years ago the specs said times could someone please tell whether getting senile not then what good does for the player take samples higher rate the data only ever read once barring mistracks and such course and eventually gets turned into khz bit two channel data oversampling takes two discrete data points and interpolates points between them for times oversampling when asked people said that the interpolation was not simply linear interpolation but significantly more complicated you are quite correct your understanding the filtering not interpolation that would distort the frequency content the signal you are listening generally these players run the samples thru all pass filter network have done this for ecg waveforms from person heart and the effect rather spooky actually reconstructs peaks that weren there correctly too and fills the gaps with the properly computed values just there had been real sample taken that point use cpu all the math takes decent but not unreasonable amount cpu time this you can keep with things realtime you write efficient code case you care the filtering method uses fir finite impulse response filter guess that makers use the same kind method anybody out there know the real answer say that they use tapped delay line with resistor amp weighting accomplish the filtering this strikes the most cost effective method for volume production runs anyway then the purpose oversampling move the effective sampling rate times khz order use higher frequency antialiasing filters for the same quality filter higher oversampling lets you build cheaper filters whereas for the same price filter higher oversamplings lets you build better filters assuming the quality all other components player remained the same oversampling should allow manufacturer produce slightly better sound due anti alias filtering actually think the only reason they this that they can say that they have marketting gimic would guess that acutally cheaper filter oversampled signal than not you can use sloppier components and give the filter roll off that isn sharp too bad that they charge more for something that think actually less costly build seriously doubt that the filters cost the same but are better they are built price spec and that spec says cheap possible joel kolstad dave dave mcmahan mcmahan netcom com
sci.electronics	voltage regulation and current limiting andy collins acollins uclink berkeley edu wrote one not quick question throw out there for you guys for our class project need design and build power supply the following specs voltatge adjustable from current limited voltage must stay within designated value for from ripple less than rms decide which kind circuit you must know the initialprecission the limiter current and the allowed temp drift the first case you can use ube transistor voltage reference about vdc with temp drift the second case its better you use bandgap ref and opamp circuit detect the maximum current the output this opamp controlls the outputstage limit the current bye thomas
sci.electronics	adcom cheap products qmbi aln transfer stratus com michael labella vos stratus com writes gather off shore assembly you mean that adcoms are built blue fin tuna who are into that squid sound agree that one adcom preamp did sound better after installing the famous running the chips class resistor mod and replacing the metal bottom cover with plexiglass too bad the factory could not make sound better but better sound unfortunately does not appear priority with adcom else the mods would neither have been necessary nor would they have improved what was already touted superlative state art sound really want hear from all those people out there who have traded from even gfp etc maybe from those that have dumped their forte amps for gfa etc one those folks who traded from audio research enjoying yes the does sound better but price greg
sci.electronics	pink noise sci electronics wayne uva schools virginia edu tony wayne writes what pink noise and how used sound experiments pink noise has constant power per geometric frequency increment octave octave etc thus the khz khz octave has the same amount noise power the octave white noise has constant power per arithmetic frequency increment khz etc thus the khz khz band has the same amount noise power the band both bands are wide pink noise can made passing white noise thru octave filter usually approximated network several pairs note you can get octave using half octave network pink noise commonly used audio power response measurements shows audio spectrum analyzers with octave related bands flat line across the bands davep
sci.electronics	need info dsp project there file the simtel archives called adda zip think that for dsp
sci.electronics	making odd resistor values required filters when constructing active filters odd values resistor are often required something like ohm resistor seems best choose common capacitor values and cope with the strange resistances then demanded there program out there that will work out how best make such resistance given fixed resistors the standard values per decade etc common enough problem yet cant recall seing program that tells that gives starting with and finding prefered values and cheers ian
sci.electronics	electronic parts nyc does anyone here know where can find modem and comm software for apple iie would prefer manhattan but new jersey would work too david tillyer datcc cunyvm cuny edu
sci.electronics	can radio freq used measure distance sci electronics rgc bcstec boeing com robert carpenter writes wondering possible use radio waves measure the distance between transmitter and receiver yes called radar seems that you should able measure the signal strength and determine distance this would for short distances and would need have accuracy inches depends the environment static environent such waveguide yes dynamic environment with objects moving about the multipath kills this concept how about measuring vertical distance well any chance getting ridiculous what the difference between vertical and horizontal what frequencies would best for this does matter this depends the required range the required accuracy the allowable ambiguity range the frequencies the fcc etc allow you use
sci.electronics	pink noise tony wayne writes what pink noise and how used sound experiments tony pink noise random signal with more low frequency components than white noise you look the frequency spectrum white noise frequency analyzer you will find that the spectrum power density flat which means that every frequency present the noise signal often pink noise obtained from white noise integrating low pass filtering white noise signal therefore pink noise contains much more low frequency components the effect pink noise sometimes used simulate thunder roaring animals additional low pass filter with variable cutoff frequency will explain you why enjoy wouter
sci.electronics	oversampling player mcmahan netcom com dave mahan writes previous article kolstad cae wisc edu joel kolstad writes article hcbc netcom com hcb netcom com bowman writes just bought new portable player for the office and notice that proudly proclaims times oversampling the box now while think understand what oversampling the rate discrete samples exceeds the highest frequency component interest some factor don understand this times business seems that when bought first player was really years ago the specs said times could someone please tell whether getting senile not then what good does for the player take samples higher rate the data only ever read once barring mistracks and such course and eventually gets turned into khz bit two channel data oversampling takes two discrete data points and interpolates points between them for times oversampling when asked people said that the interpolation was not simply linear interpolation but significantly more complicated you are quite correct your understanding the filtering not interpolation that would distort the frequency content the signal they interpolate not linear interpolation though you are correct that the frequency content not altered more specifically the baseband spectrum preserved and every nth image spectrum the other image spectra are removed where the oversampling rate you are listening generally these players run the samples thru all pass filter network have done this for ecg waveforms from person ideally the filter has gain from and gain from the new nyquist frequency practice finite transition band required and there also certain amount pass band ripple and stop band leakage with high order taps digital filter very good approximation can easily achieved bit deleted about observations interpolation filter work case you care the filtering method uses fir finite impulse response filter guess that makers use the same kind method anybody out there know the real answer say that they use tapped delay line with resistor amp weighting accomplish the filtering this strikes the most cost effective method for volume production runs they actually use digital fir just like yours but built hardware custom vlsi chips for mainly economic reasons anyway then the purpose oversampling move the effective sampling rate times khz order use higher frequency antialiasing filters for the same quality filter higher oversampling lets you build cheaper filters whereas for the same price filter higher oversamplings lets you build better filters assuming the quality all other components player remained the same oversampling should allow manufacturer produce slightly better sound due anti alias filtering actually think the only reason they this that they can say that they have marketting gimic would guess that acutally cheaper filter oversampled signal than not you can use sloppier components and give the filter roll off that isn sharp too bad that they charge more for something that think actually less costly build guess that the answer somewhere between the two interesting aside some you out there may aware scheme used pioneer and wadia which called pioneer least legato link haven heard one these players but reading advertising blurb and couple pseudo technical articles deduced that all they build lousy digital oversampling filter and let load the first image aliassed spectrum through talking bob stuart boothroyd stuart aka meridian confirmed suspicion said that sounded awful but then would wouldn christopher christopher hicks paradise linear gaussian world cmh cam eng also reported taste hot and sweaty
sci.electronics	can radio freq used measure distance article otter hpl com tgg otter hpl com tom gardner writes what the difference between vertical and horizontal gravity doesn gravity pull down the photons and cause doppler shift something just kidding
sci.electronics	can radio freq used measure distance article bcstec boeing com rgc bcstec boeing com robert carpenter writes wondering possible use radio waves measure the distance between transmitter and receiver seems that you should able measure the signal strength and determine distance this would for short distances and would need have accuracy inches this would susceptible fading multi path etc used use system the shop made tellurometer south africa used ghz signal between units across the distance measured the ghz was just the carrier the real signals were several switched ones around mhz whose relative phases the receiver would read out the digits the distance down needed the units came with psychrometers measure the relative humidity and instructions for correction the measurements due and temp they were rather heavy and required operator each end current technology uses polarized reflectors dual polaization and psuedo random coding radar pulse about the same resolution band much better ghz only one end heavy regards stu beal mwm csx cciw national water research institute burlington ontario canada made through yet another nuclear winter and the lawn had just trapped and eaten first robin kyle spiller
sci.electronics	arcade style buttons and joysticks article innq gap caltech edu franko cco caltech edu frank filipanits writes can anyone tell where possible purchase controls found most arcade style games many projects working would greatly augmented could implement them thanx advance hap controls just outside chicago sells these andrew macrae actually happ and some their equipment can found the parts express catalog they show switches for joysticks for and trackballs for they also have pinball parts you right happ controls inc but you can buy direct from them don have phone number with but anyone interested can email for don remember their button price but the joystick price was per dozen last check should slightly higher for one two but cheaper than parts express for the trackballs don know the new price either but can sell you rebuilt arcade trackballs for that includes new rollers and new bearings when nec also have pile used joysticks and buttons that would willing sell please email address below interested donnie please note the new email address below donald barnes coach having blackouts barnes yoda csc ncsu edu computer engineering kind nice break the day isn sam state university
sci.electronics	need hydrophone info don know much about hydrophones looking for any information that will help avoid problems haven thought would like inexpensive hydrophone and amplifier with tape line level outputs something like edmund sells for they also sell just the microphone hydrophone head for but how does one construct the enclosure any information would greatly appreciated thanks bill mohler bill occs oberlin edu
sci.electronics	video recording vga screen all think the subject says all does anyone know how take the rgb vsync from standard vga connector and record them video tape any help appreciated mark cargill why have program for the that want videotape that can show people how the program works presentation giving
sci.electronics	flexible solar cells two three years ago saw report about company that had developed method making solar cells flexible substrate failing memory has convinced was some flexible metal now have application that requires flexible solar cell and was hoping someone out netland knows something about this company similar product any help would greatly appreciated wayne dawe pick path any path but don send wayne node hub org anything bigger than wayne node gts org wayne node pci wayne node uucp
sci.electronics	electronic parts nyc article apr trintex uucp elr trintex uucp ravin writes trans electronics canal street near ave lots surplus type stuff they been out busines for years several other electronics surplus type places are still canal street not any more about years ago they all closed when ramco electronics city closed took weeks and many dumpsters clear everything out heard there are few places that sell connectors and phone wires but chips capacitors discrete stuff sylvan wellington still broadway and canal but they not cheap and not surplus mostly repairman store jeffrey jonas jeffj panix com jeffrey jonas jeffj panix com
sci.electronics	long distance detection article omc dynamo ecn purdue edu omc dynamo ecn purdue edu duane mantick writes duane yeesh you will nailing those irleds may suggest getting your mitts the siemens sfh irled this unit designed take some big current pulses you can get your duty cycle down bit will output nearly watt with real short duty cycle times nice thing about the sfh that cheap got mine for about cents piece even though had buy them are you saying that you have some extras that you would like some cost recovery may interested think for practical and cost reasons limited envelope detection that leaves with only increasing the output power and increasing the optical gain the receiver methods extend range btw have seen irleds with outputs watts honest watts don have the book here work can recall the company name the watter ain cheap around but you want some power mamamia that pretty hot they also have watt watt and watt device their line and will sell small quan individuals you are interested can find the book home and get the pertinent info yes interested the company name have access extensive data book collection with that kind power are getting into area where eye safety getting problem now for the position detector you might try eltec florida phone number listed the etid they seem like nice people their specialty passive infrared detection devices they might able help you out they are long way from but they might better source than can find around here curious about your applications you don mind saying the device sounds like could useful lasertag game although you need your carrier signal concept khz keeping application confidential for now raising the frequency should problem fact one respondent question said that may not have mimic the duty cycle normally used detector chips stan burton dnd crad dres dtd mss agcg sburton dres dnd dre suffield box medicine hat canada
sci.electronics	long distance detection article apr macc wisc edu jvannes vms macc wisc edu writes you are probably referring the products opto diode corp mitchell road newbury park the make some amazing irled the really high powered devices are arrays led header the chip model puts out watts response amp pulse duty cycle think these are designed illuminators for vision systems jeez that should would also interested the application here work with dance and technology program and want build something track dancers foot wide stage from feet away very interesting application controlled lighting and environment moderate distances might more interesting than application just thought you could use roof mounted sender similar operation remote control that tells each persons coded pulser send pulse hamamatsu detector was mentioned previous message this thread would give the current position store and collate this computer and you could replay the movements the screen interesting stan burton dnd crad dres dtd mss agcg sburton dres dnd dre suffield box medicine hat canada
sci.electronics	making odd resistor values required filters sci electronics idh nessie mcc ian hawkins writes when constructing active filters odd values resistor are often required something like ohm resistor seems best choose common capacitor values and cope with the strange resistances then demanded there program out there that will work out how best make such resistance given fixed resistors the standard values per decade etc common enough problem yet cant recall seing program that tells that gives starting with and finding prefered values and since you worrying about the third decimal place assume you using tolerance resistors and capacitors
sci.electronics	ntsc horiz vert drive from black burst would like hook some cameras that were recently donated our local community cable station which have sync inputs the form horizontal and vertical drive our station sync black burst which works fine with other boxes with genlock style inputs can anyone point design article whatever showing how produce the horizontal vertical drive signals thanks advance jack powers
sci.electronics	radio electronics free information card article ulqg acsu buffalo edu ubvmsb buffalo edu neil gandler writes how does the radio electronics free information cards work they just send you some general information about the companies that advertise their magazine does also give you sign you for catalog varies you may get catalog price list from the advertiser the was specific product slec sheet that product line mike schuster schuster panix com compuserve com schuster shell portal com genie mschuster
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected article apr imag schaefer imag imag arno schaefer writes article apr lumina edb tih ketil edb tih ketil albertsen tih writes article apr reed edu mblock reed edu matt block writes guess what saying that your question difficult not impossible answer what exactly you want know you need good one for project you are working how secure must are you trying crack one that someone else has used can probably make suggestions assuming the activity strictly legal general bad idea legally tamper with copy protection can also lead corruption files which you necessarily not have back ups being they are copy protected which can devestating you have absolutely ideas for practical applications and are merely curious please clear those questions and try help much can may interpret this offer volunteer editor for copy protection faq quite sure that not alone welcoming such initiative will volunteer ask some the questions you will provide the answers hey now will you stop encouraging him copy protection only serves one pur pose keep the honest buyer from making legal backup copies will definitely not stop any pirates you want protect you soft supply good documentation and support this imho the only way effectively protecting software there are several types copy protection and the point make sure the user using legitimate copy the simplest and virtually fool proof way for the program somehow fixate itself the machine was installed some sort checksum serial number whatever copy put different machine not installed from original disks will not work the program definitely backupable restored the same machine depends the programmer don use disk drive characteristic the user did upgrade the machine she should reinstall all programs any way document look disk wear and tear did not say that the originals would allow only one install the user conscience should that know get flamed for this but with the increasing number casual users who either unknowingly don care about the software copyrights the truth have friends who ask for copies latest games all the time and when refused they went after somebody else casual pirating becoming more problem some sort copy protection will discourage the casual copying seen what some friends dug somewhere latest and the greatest games all cracked within days actual release you know how many bytes you need change wing disable the quiz two yes two and don ask which ones they are determined pirates are unstoppable given enough time but their results not spread that far since pirate boards are not that well known and easily tracked once found authorities the casual pirates that the copy protection determined discourage what believe the companies should implement the above plus special patch once the user registers that loudly exclaims upon bootup registered xxxxx address city state zip and disables the above two benefits encourages registration cuts down pirating and makes more traceable because the patch registration message encrypted will quite hard change and therefore provides stable trail who allowed their copy out their hands and thus violated their license agreement this way the legitimate users who does not register will experience minimal discomfort who does major upgrades their computer frequently only problem they have they won able restore another computer the registered users would have proven they are legitmate users and therefore gains full rights and can restore different machines the other hand the software company now have record where this particular copy supposed this user copy was found somewhere was not supposed know who has broken their license agreement course hacker can break that eventually but that not the point kasey chang
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected companies compressed their executables with lzw andd did some kind encryption the process this change two bytes here thing would right out the window michael chen from the depths our most lucid horrors spring our fond hopes and pure desires mchen psu edu except what comes from hell
sci.electronics	magic layout editor heard that magic has been transported the macintosh environment does anybody know where can get hold this thanks advance for any responses rich vanderbeek dept the army aberdeen proving ground
sci.electronics	detector cards article apr monu monash edu craw yoyo monash edu sebastian filzek writes people heres problem keep hearing about these little credit card type things which detect light think that they are avaliable the states and even england but alas live australia could someone please inform can get these things over here and where and how much sure edmund scientific company glouchester pike barrington the card page the last catalog got the cost ranges from depending size and range wavelengths the card responds john
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected sehari iastate edu babak sehari writes apr reed edu mblock reed edu matt block writes article sehari marge ecss iastate edu sehari iastate edu babak sehari writes was wondering what copy protection techniques are avaliable and how effective are they has anyone have any experience this area with highest regards babak sehari umm there are number copy protection schemes some involve modifying the physical media and some involve encryption schemes all the ones that have existed over the course computing have been successful for time recall however near monthly releases new ways crack the copy protection scheme the latest releases the fact none them are completely secure anywhere near some are more less difficult crack and some have already been cracked guess what saying that your question difficult not impossible answer what exactly you want know you need good one for project you are working how secure must are you trying crack one that someone else has used can probably make suggestions assuming the activity strictly legal general bad idea legally tamper with copy protection can also lead corruption files which you necessarily not have back ups being they are copy protected which can devestating you have absolutely ideas for practical applications and are merely curious please clear those questions and try help much can incidentally the the top indicative the dread anyone who has watched their friends hacking equipment carted off feels when they are asked how hack the area you are broaching wrought with dangers many which include breaking the law least addressing from one side the other matt have written program and want market would like certain degree protection since main custmers are individuals and not the cooperations know laser hole burning method and hardware key method however software going cost only can not afford that also this low price can not afford people make too many copy software well guess say upto illigal copying however not want someone get copy pctools and copy software off course never meant forbid the true hackers from copying since they can develope better program anyway with highest regards babak sehari one the most popular methods course the password check where they ask you for word from page line and word but this pitifully simple remove unless you throw some checksums into the main part your program and some self rewriting code confuse some people also make sure that your program can not run out debugger another method course not even make bad sectors the original disk just write certain key certain unallocated sector help you here you also must the code protection schemes mentioned the first paragraph make sure you also fill the rest the unallocated parts the disk with garbage well they wanna crackers can just look for the junk some random sector like you mentioned there are the laser holed disks and hardware keys but they are both expensive and pain the butt for the end user which you the opposite what you want another configuration that can used save the configuration the machine that being installed the most undecipherable format you can think the program does not find that this the same system requests being installed the original disk again the original disk should encrypted compacted have many sectors that should checked and anything else you can think make sure that the original cannot copied once again you must put code encryption self rewriting code and multiple crc checks the program make sure that does not get changed among other things this also protects your program from virii the program detects change its code tell the user that virus has been detected the program tell them the program virus secure and remember you have helped the world kill some pirating and kill some viruses feel good hope that have helped have fun knock some cracking out well you can everything that can written can cracked but you piss off the process goodbye what the program that will sold george gruschow death you gronk yfn ysu edu ggruscho nyx edu
sci.electronics	subliminal message flashing article bubble org bob bubble org bob billson writes kennehra logic camp clarkson edu rich theman kennehan says was doing research subliminal suggestion for psychology paper and read that one researcher flashed hidden messages the screen ths second that possible thought the take look over alt folklore urban there thread about subliminal messages the fact that subliminal messages don work aside image can flashed screen fast enough not noticed well yes and the image can the screen less than second but mixture images that about the field that was supposed there and the subliminal addition could overlaid for one field producing the same overall effect our sluggish retinae discrete image projected for second although like the previous poster have reserve doubts about the effectiveness said discrete image steering subconscious around bgb lihan ccwf utexas edu the only reason the world hasn really bruce bostwick dissolved into total chaos that from the great state texas murphy law also applies murphy
sci.electronics	can radio freq used measure distance robert carpenter rgc bcstec boeing com wrote wondering possible use radio waves measure the distance between transmitter and receiver seems that you should able measure the signal strength and determine distance this would for short distances and would need have accuracy inches you might try looking whats available laser locating systems they work best for close work mile and under used for much longer distances two major modes transponder and phase measurment transponder requires you send pulse another station and returns you and you measure the round trip time minus the receiver time phase measurements require two more transmitting stations sending the same frequency signal multiplexed time receiver can pick them and measure the phase shift between signals maps can drawn that plot the lines position that correspond certain phase shift between two stations john eaton vcd johne
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected ketil edb tih ketil albertsen tih writes article apr reed edu mblock reed edu matt block writes guess what saying that your question difficult not impossible answer what exactly you want know you need good one for project you are working how secure must are you trying crack one that someone else has used can probably make suggestions assuming the activity strictly legal general bad idea legally tamper with copy protection can also lead corruption files which you necessarily not have back ups being they are copy protected which can devestating you have absolutely ideas for practical applications and are merely curious please clear those questions and try help much can may interpret this offer volunteer editor for copy protection faq quite sure that not alone welcoming such initiative will volunteer ask some the questions you will provide the answers ketil albertsen that great read article edit out the personal formality and save george gruschow death you gronk yfn ysu edu ggruscho nyx edu
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected schaefer imag imag arno schaefer writes article apr lumina edb tih ketil edb tih ketil albertsen tih writes article apr reed edu mblock reed edu matt block writes guess what saying that your question difficult not impossible answer what exactly you want know you need good one for project you are working how secure must are you trying crack one that someone else has used can probably make suggestions assuming the activity strictly legal general bad idea legally tamper with copy protection can also lead corruption files which you necessarily not have back ups being they are copy protected which can devestating you have absolutely ideas for practical applications and are merely curious please clear those questions and try help much can may interpret this offer volunteer editor for copy protection faq quite sure that not alone welcoming such initiative will volunteer ask some the questions you will provide the answers ketil albertsen hey now will you stop encouraging him copy protection only serves one pur pose keep the honest buyer from making legal backup copies will definitely not stop any pirates you want protect you soft supply good documentation and support this imho the only way effectively pro tecting software best regards arno arno schaefer ensimag annee email schaefer silene imag tel you not paranoid the world really out get you your wrong never give update your program much possible with very low price upgrade registered users and please make sure you keep list registered numbers george gruschow death you gronk yfn ysu edu ggruscho nyx edu
sci.electronics	cross compilers and assemblers shareware can anyone point cross compiler and assembler for the motorola hosted compatible preferable free shareware also does anyone know gnu port this chip thanks advance
sci.electronics	wanted scope looking for mhz scope good condition please email call
sci.electronics	detector cards craw yoyo monash edu sebastian filzek writes think that they are avaliable the states and even england but alas live australia could someone please inform can get these things over here and where and how much also are they really commonly avaliable the states and then how much are they and who sells them maybe cant get one here write one the companies over seas anyway thanks advance sab got mine for about bucks radio shack the instructions say expose light for while but mine doesn seem require very much make work just wish could get big sheet the stuff abouit for reasonable price isn cheap from what seen duane
sci.electronics	long distance detection jvannes vms macc wisc edu writes you are probably referring the products opto diode corp mitchell road newbury park the make some amazing irled the really high powered devices are arrays led header the chip model puts out watts response amp pulse duty cycle think these are designed illuminators for vision systems yeah that the guys would also interested the application here work with dance and technology program and want build something track dancers foot wide stage from feet away yeah that sounds lot like lasertag anyway duane
sci.electronics	lead acid batteries concrete article apr cronkite ocis temple edu camter astro ocis temple edu carter ames writes was just wondering one thing actually two hope that this the proper place post this subject yeah this fine place haven had the why does concrete kill lead acid batteries thread least six months why does lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored concrete floor the concrete simply sucks all the electrons out the battery and drains them into the ground another explanation implausible that the lead acid battery needs periodically charged topped off otherwise the battery self discharges and then undergoes irreversible chemical reaction naawwwww the concrete sucks the life out dana myers views expressed here are mine and not necessarily dana locus com dod reflect those employer this extra supports the abolition the and wpm tests
sci.electronics	remote control receiver ritterbus wcsub ctstateu edu writes you want buy one try radio shack else repair shop can probably order one btw the carrier frequency khz and each different vcr cable box stereo manufacturer uses unique pulse scheme perform each different function their equipment some including rca set home uses simple carriers which think run between and khz there tone decoding all one has piss the thing off just hook irled variable oscillator and tune through wreaks all kinds havoc similarly vcr remote changes channels cable box always seems change the cable box channel when you the pause play soooo some things have some overlap them duane
sci.electronics	need access reports hall effect devices does anyone know the whereabouts technical reports that can access via the internet
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected article sehari iastate edu sehari iastate edu babak sehari writes stuff deleted also this low price can not afford people make too many copy software well guess say upto illigal copying you should clear your mind what your goal two possible goals are maximizing you income from your program and minimizing the number illegal copies which get created accomplishing doesn usually accomplish most vendors have concluded that copy protection reduces the number normal legitimate sales far more than increase sales virtue changing copiers purchasers and hence merely reduces revenue most legitimate buyers nowadays including have had bad experiences with copy protected products hard make legitimate backup incompatabilties when new system system upgrade etc and they won touch them with ten foot pole wally bass
sci.electronics	detector cards also are they really commonly avaliable the states and then how much are they and who sells them maybe cant get one here write one the companies over seas radio shack part infrared sensor card
sci.electronics	can radio freq used measure distance article otter hpl com tgg otter hpl com tom gardner writes sci electronics rgc bcstec boeing com robert carpenter writes wondering possible use radio waves measure the distance between transmitter and receiver yes called radar well actually not quite both radar and radio altimeters measure distances measuring the time required transmit signal then receive its reflection from target radar generally uses pulses while radio altimeters use either pulses modulated continuous wave transmission the case the latter highly accurate distance measurement can made example the original bendix ala radio altimeter was accurate foot feet altitude note however that this different method measuring than the poster originally asked about the problem with gaining accurate measurements between transmitter and seperate receiver that you need highly accurate time base which starts the receiver the exact instant the transmitter triggers this cannot wire connected since radio waves will actually travel faster free space air this case than wire the difference called the velocity factor the cable you need resort common timebase that automatically corrected for distance etc something like pll connected gps receiver should the trick triggering both the transmitter and receiver simultaneously sound expensive not too bad but plan spending few bucks both equipment and effort why not different method surveyors use laser light system where again the reflection time measured why not try this sounds like something should know about anyway seems that you should able measure the signal strength and determine distance this would for short distances and would need have accuracy inches this actually highly inaccurate since the power output transmitter varies from unit unit there are variances the antenna and transmission line and the receiver may also vary both from unit unit and the same unit over time you would need continuously calibrate the entire system with the radio altimeter this also done but since everything located one place much easier note especially that the time base for the receiver and transmitter one unit also depends the environment static environent such waveguide yes dynamic environment with objects moving about the multipath kills this concept nope capture effect says that the strongest signal wins that unless the two interfering signals are seperated more than signal strength this the one problem that makes altimeters inaccurate very low altitudes signals bouncing off runways tend very strong what frequencies would best for this does matter high possible eliminate outside influence and also enhance attenuation multipath signals radio altimeters typically use frequencies around ghz hope this helps jack brindle ham radio fib internet jackb mdd comm mot com
sci.electronics	test this just test see this works
sci.electronics	packet radio the looking for any and all information regarding packet radio implementation the software hardware whatever please mail any info koberg spot colorado edu thanks
sci.electronics	volt from battery you might want get disposible flash camera shoot the roll film then take apart they snapped together used bunch them wedding but instead sending the whole camera just took the film out standard canister and kept the batteries they use one battery sorry didn keep any the flash electronics charlie brett collins
sci.electronics	rpm floopy drives update article linnf clover csv warwick csulo csv warwick brown writes hopefully this should sort all out not bad for quid normally pardon ignorance foreign currency and exchange rates but what quid how does relate the british pound whatever called and what that american dollars thanks mark underwood student university kentucky lab assistant boyd hall microlab tiny little division library microlabs mail msunde mik uky edu
sci.electronics	help with phone wire which ones are tip ring just bought little gizmo that supposed installed series with the tip ring lines the phone wire which ones are those suppose holding regular phone wire such that the little plastic tooth the little plastic square thing with the naked lead ends that you plug into the phone facing down and away from which the wires that see the tip and which the ring please reply mlevin husc harvard edu mike levin
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected article mchen apr terra psu edu mchen terra psu edu michael chen writes companies compressed their executables with lzw andd did some kind encryption the process this change two bytes here thing would right out the window not entirely true friend mine was having trouble finishing the game gods and asked for help since could not find trainer small patch that lets you play without losing lifes the game compressed but did find one byte which when changed the original compressed file would not affect the decompression and would also prevent the shield the game from being tured off turning therefore making you invincible there are many other progs whose copy protection was defeated one way another and have seen examples this with own eyes the copy protection schemes defeated were various such using protected mode compressed executables progs that load and execute other progs possibly compressed dongles key disks etc believe that persistence overcomes even the very best copy protection schemes michael chen from the depths our most lucid horrors spring our fond hopes and pure desires mchen psu edu except what comes from hell alex ivopol cyborg kauri vuw external user victoria university wellington new zealand speak for myself and one else
sci.electronics	silicon storage inc would appreciate very much the address and phone this company they supposely make analog eeproms thanks advance doug
sci.electronics	cad program for electronics what want the cad program draw diagrams dragging elements onto the screen and this the elements needed are diverse vacuum tubes ics case with pins try draftchoice its not windows but its shareware and object oriented use with printgl for high quality output bruce
sci.electronics	help not clever how make power supply need make power supply that can take input from cigarette lighter car and drive volts amps know enough know that simple voltage divider with two resistors won right can such thing made from radio shack able parts without too much difficulty jps looked for premade things like this radio shack but none seems any higher than about joel skelton north avenue trade school dept round things prism gatech edu ask for scooter technologies and receive
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected article apr csus edu kschang sfsuvax sfsu edu kuo sheng kasey chang writes there are several types copy protection and the point make sure the user using legitimate copy the simplest and virtually fool proof way for the program somehow fixate itself the machine was installed some sort checksum serial number whatever copy put different machine not installed from original disks will not work okay what you some part the machine presumably the part which the code number whatever that the program has fixated itself upon goes bad you replace that part and now your program won run because different computer this course assuming that the program uses something rom like the bios serial number maybe and not disk based code number obviously the drive goes bad you reinstalling the stuff anyway work computer lab which part the university microlab system have the wonderfully fun task maintaining well over hundred machines both and macintosh well administering network over next machines personally concerned only with small lab with ten and ten mac not the manager but help him with admin often imho copy protection schemes any sort are nothing more than major headache for the legitimate user anyone who wants copy your program and doesn care about legality will get copy period pirate board pirate board too have friends who blatantly and quite successfuly hack copy protection schemes practically their sleep let consider what goes our lab almost daily have least one machine down sometimes several due some goofball screwing some setting other piece software admittedly being students mostly are not the world most efficient and effective network administrators but try keeping even the twenty machines that are partly responsibility even vaguely looking and acting similar the average user and maintaining behind the scenes consistency real headache but not bad headache trying remember twenty different folder locations norton utilities when some guy trashes his disk often have hardware problems peak business times and have some parts swapping get stuff working temporarily well cut the chase and quit boring all the point often have install software and copy configuration files etc from machine machine far the easiest way have found this get one machine working exactly the way want then copy the complete setup this machine the other nine that machine type this ensures that for least ten minutes have ten identical machines work with having them networked simplifies this considerably our major packages wordperfect windows etc are all network versions and thus only one copy mess with often however need install package requested some instructor one some all the machines for special project this usually hand written shareware etc program similar what believe the original poster was asking about the few have had with copy protection schemes have caused nothing but nightmares for maintain short don waste your time with copy protection scheme sort like outlawing guns the criminals will get your program anyway and you will only hurting the legitimate honest user write good user guide and tech manual whatever else for your program please this regardless whether you copy protect the thing and only distribute the manual licensed users jack the price cut your losses but please take cue from the major companies who can admittedly afford the costs illegal copies far better than you and don burden the legitimate user with copy protection scheme sorry for the tirade but been long day here mark underwood student university kentucky lab assistant boyd hall microlab tiny little division library microlabs mail msunde mik uky edu the program definitely backupable restored the same machine depends the programmer don use disk drive characteristic the user did upgrade the machine she should reinstall all programs any way document look disk wear and tear did not say that the originals would allow only one install the user conscience should that know get flamed for this but with the increasing number casual users who either unknowingly don care about the software copyrights the truth have friends who ask for copies latest games all the time and when refused they went after somebody else casual pirating becoming more problem some sort copy protection will discourage the casual copying seen what some friends dug somewhere latest and the greatest games all cracked within days actual release you know how many bytes you need change wing disable the quiz two yes two and don ask which ones they are determined pirates are unstoppable given enough time but their results not spread that far since pirate boards are not that well known and easily tracked once found authorities the casual pirates that the copy protection determined discourage what believe the companies should implement the above plus special patch once the user registers that loudly exclaims upon bootup registered xxxxx address city state zip and disables the above two benefits encourages registration cuts down pirating and makes more traceable because the patch registration message encrypted will quite hard change and therefore provides stable trail who allowed their copy out their hands and thus violated their license agreement this way the legitimate users who does not register will experience minimal discomfort who does major upgrades their computer frequently only problem they have they won able restore another computer the registered users would have proven they are legitmate users and therefore gains full rights and can restore different machines the other hand the software company now have record where this particular copy supposed this user copy was found somewhere was not supposed know who has broken their license agreement course hacker can break that eventually but that not the point kasey chang
sci.electronics	laser bubblejet article apr news columbia edu cunixa columbia edu kimball writes kolstad cae wisc edu joel kolstad writes one other thing there are bubblejets and then there are bubblejets there are few bubblejets out there that produce rather mediocre output such dinky little bubblejet whereas most produce really good looking output such deskjets ibm and canon both produce some the really good style bubblejets considering either inkjet bubble jet printer seen inkjet printers and was impressed with the near lazer quality have heard lot bad things about the cheaper bubble jet printers does the ink smudge very easily and take long time dry thanks hbl graham wilson lsg cck coventry law iii coventry university
sci.electronics	mov advice please hello can somebody tell what kind mov are most useful for computer surge protector radio shack have types both rated one for current and the other for the other hand commercial surge protectors have seen claim clamping voltage which seems imply rated voltage about sqrt what the right kind while important really the emi rfi module there really any noticable level such noise the power line please mail this group has too much volume for able follow thanks
sci.electronics	what with old simms mmninn master rose hulman edu henslelf nextwork rose hulman edu lige hensley writes article netnews upenn edu jhaines eniac seas upenn edu jason haines writes was wondering people had any good uses for old simms have bunch them for the apple mac and know lots other people have tried sell them but have gotten interest you have inovative use want buy some simms sure give you bucks for all them think they are really neat put onto key rings when somebody makes the mistake asking about you can totally geek out
sci.electronics	tunnel diodes spice does anybody have idea how model tunnel diode spice thank you martin krajci mkrajci wilkes wilkes edu
sci.electronics	power signal surges home article apr porthos bellcore com patter dasher bellcore com patterson george writes article apr mprgate mpr vanderby mprgate mpr david vanderbyl writes kludge grissom larc nasa gov scott dorsey writes car unfortunately has much computer junk under the hood that astonishingly sensitive rfi hmmmmm this has possibilities the police are pursuit vehicle maybe they can bombard with high energy rfi right all the cops will buying antique muscle cars for chase cars otherwise the police cars will die too wonder you could focus the rfi gun the cops wouldn have this problem mark underwood student university kentucky lab assistant boyd hall microlab tiny little division library microlabs mail msunde mik uky edu
sci.electronics	radar detector detectors article usk athena uga edu mcovingt aisun uga edu michael covington writes there was microwave tower next florida turnpike and you could watch the cars hit the breaks they came sight every morning funny and most the detector owning friends have are generally able remember such things nearby microwave towers and radar detectors going off exactly the same spon every day know the grayson exit there store just off the side the road think liquor store with what must security system that would make most federal prisons proud the only thing ever driven besides cop that puts whistler god right behind you mode simply ignore the detector and use eyes when drive that store seconds later all quiet the front and problem mark underwood student university kentucky lab assistant boyd hall microlab tiny little division library microlabs mail msunde mik uky edu
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected hey now will you stop encouraging him copy protection only serves one pur pose keep the honest buyer from making legal backup copies will definitely not stop any pirates you want protect you soft supply good documentation and support this imho the only way effectively pro tecting software best regards arno strongly disagree think most pirating done amateurs who won copy the program diskcopy can you talking max goal pirated copies bet that anything that will beat diskcopy and can easily copied from hard drive will suffice hate hard copy manuals and would rather have all docs online not because want copy the program but because its usually faster and and convenient than sifting through old book can find off deeper end why does everyone think they need able make backup copy almost all new software must installed the hard disk you are left with the originals your backups think its waste time space and money well makes tempting lend out the backups flames intended just thoughts eric
sci.electronics	contracts for computer law module have been asked write computer contract for the supply computer software business the software being especially written for the company would anyone per chance happen have copy computer contract their system which they could mail anyone has computer contract but contains sensitive material then can assure them that will remain confidential and will not pass allow anyone else view thanks hbl graham wilson lsg cck coventry law iii coventry university
sci.electronics	lead acid batteries concrete carter ames camter astro ocis temple edu wrote why does lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored concrete floor could that you stored somewhere that could become covered moisture damp air which would short out the terminals the same thing happens car citroen damp gets under the bonnet hood and shorts the spark plugs earth won start the solution for the car clean the plug leads and spray with moisture repellant damp the problem then storing the battery off the ground may help not sure spraying with would safe since very flammable high percentage petroleum just thought chris chris hand lecturer internet mail cph dmu dept computing science voice montfort university the gateway fax fidonet leicester linux free unix for ibm pcs
sci.electronics	lead acid batteries concrete article apr cronkite ocis temple edu camter astro ocis temple edu carter ames writes was just wondering one thing actually two hope that this the proper place post this subject why does lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored concrete floor decided bring the battery from the lawn mower and the motorcycle from the unheated garage this year preserve them and just went use them and noticed that not only they not work but they act like the two terminals are shorted asked friend and said that you should never that cause ruins them but couldn tell why thanks camter astro ocis temple edu not battery expert but from recent reading lead acid battery will self discharge relatively high rate and stored discharged state will develop condition think called sulfation storage either the electrolyte should removed and replaced for use fat chance ever that home the battery should stored trickle charge have also think read that the condition may reversable hooked current limited charging circuit fro long period time the refernce remember use where the amp hours the charging circuit and leave hooked for weeks some this may only apply gel type cells but suspect the same applies the liquid type richard dell
sci.electronics	question about vac outlet wiring article apr mtu edu cmwolf mtu edu engineer day asleep night writes dave martindale dave imax imax com wrote they require two separate grounds one ground goes the ground pin the outlet and the other ground wire connected the outlet mounting tabs and thus grounds the box and faceplate screw and metal faceplate any thought the ground was connected the metal frame the socket christopher wolf electrical engineer cmwolf mtu edu remember even you win the rat race you still rat not isolated ground recepticles usually unusual color such orange yellow often used low noise low leakage applications mentioned earlier the thread richard dell
sci.electronics	packet radio the koberg spot colorado edu allen koberg writes looking for any and all information regarding packet radio implementation the software hardware whatever please mail any info koberg spot colorado edu thanks try rec radio packet michael kraker georgia state university internet regmad gsusgi gsu edu bitnet regmad gsuvm packet fkw iterate human recurse devine
sci.electronics	uart needed really break detect article alan alan apple com alan mimms writes actually detecting break done watching for character containing all zero bits with the framing error resulting from its receipt this true enough but means that the line stayed the zero bit state even past the stop bit time slot which basically indicates break there special way detect break that have found other than this there magic signal generated uarts etc zilog scc break detect this very popular part but has number quirks especially hdlc mode signetics duscc rsr break start detect rsr break end detect two the bits the receiver status register you can enable interrupt either these bits going high too also only one null will put the fifo per break detected this simply the best serial chip ever worked with many less quirks than the scc which imho second best death devices cccccc jim cathey sssscc isc bunker ramo taf spokane iissss uucp uunet isc jimc jimc isc isc com cccccc one design rule them all one design find them one design bring them all and the darkness bind them the land mediocrity where the lie
sci.electronics	atari processors article apr das harvard edu squish endor uucp shishin yamada writes the atari used cpu just like their entire bit line computers well the game machine wrong has the had some extra asic chips that were basically modified graphics chips and pia for the joysticks had one custome chip not asic the sense that word now understood the tia sometimes known the although most other manufacturers list that the cia complex interface adapter tia stands for television interface adapter and handles sound paddles and the minimal video hardware the possessed there was also standard ram timer riot plus voltage regulator and memory serves timer that all later model might have incorporated many the chips into one asci the weight the machines and part count decreased lot over the years not according the servicing documentation have here the did not change intenally very much all additionally think the used and rom for their games roms were mapped into the upper the address space and games were fine but later and games needed bank switching atari and others made much these huge cartridges have idea how much ram had work with but would hazard guess ram wrong had bytes ram from the riot this was multiply mapped into both page pseudo registers and page stack and also throughout the bottom memory tia registers also sat this address space bytes ram was somewhat limiting some later cartridges also carried ram themselves which was interesting atari had provided write line the cart this was managed mapping the reads from ram into one address range and the writes into another but all the time this scheme ate into the very scarce rom address space ian
sci.electronics	making odd resistor values required filters one way make cheap trimmable resistors use high wattage carbon composition resistor and saw notch with triangular file course you can only increase the resistance not decrease
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected cyborg kauri vuw xivo alex ivopol writes believe that persistence overcomes even the very best copy protection schemes would expect that rom software would not even need copy protection the program rom would not fit onto hard drive and impossible for the average and even not average user write rom copies the software that still work could never made hmmm now that think about with creative tsr maybe disk swapping could used simulate files single disk you would need tonne disks though alex ivopol cyborg kauri vuw external user victoria university wellington new zealand speak for myself and one else andrew scott internet ascott tartarus uwa edu
sci.electronics	building flashlight the simplest and cheapest soft bulb argon bulb other argon bulb works like neon bulb except glows purple will cause stuff fluoresce requires very little power just battery oscillator and step transformer about volts electronic goldmine has several lamps both pre built units and kits ask for their catalog
sci.electronics	power signal surges home article jmoinn rave larc nasa gov kludge grissom larc nasa gov scott dorsey writes article drand apr spinner osf org drand spinner osf org douglas rand writes article randall woof randall informix com randall rhea writes hams can legally run watts very unlikely however that ham would running that kind power from car ham rigs not possible either you need about amp alternator for just the amplifier can just see you need slow down downgrade you hit the push talk button now that indeed possible good friend mine running about pep from his car yes does have second alternator yes calls the rig electronic brake since the engine noticeably slows when the key down has been while since knew the electronics ham radio but seem remember that pep actually the real power which makes pep actually around was disremember effective transmitted power also odd that takes into account antenna height and geometry which why station with klystron might advertise megawatt their antenna the top the tower this like sears though real watts still isn impossible about with alternator less the alternator produces higher voltages only three horsepower taking into account inefficiencies you feel when you hit the key but not too much chris lewis clewis ferret ocunix phone canada psroff info psroff request ferret ocunix ferret list ferret request ferret ocunix
sci.electronics	long distance detection article apr macc wisc edu jvannes vms macc wisc edu writes would also interested the application here work with dance and technology program and want build something track dancers foot wide stage from feet away could make for some interesting choreography light and sound could controlled directly the position dancer stage the number dancers stage neat you could even build spotlight that follows the dancer around stage can you tell more about what you doing sounds like very cool program caleb strockbine cstrockb sunysb edu
sci.electronics	help high data link have couple applications for high speed data links replacement ultrasonic signal coaxial cables with fiber optic cable applying fiber optic slip ring for channel ultrasonics inspection system for candu reactor inspection remote data link from ultrasonic pipeline inspection device including transfer channels via microwave other higher speed transfer ultrasonic data from remote inspection head would happy share sources other info acquired please mail post here this long term upgrade over the next years thanks truemner mac truemner hydro ontario hydro automated ndt welding fax toronto canada
sci.electronics	need find out numb article uupcb ozonehole com gerald belton ozonehole com gerald belton writes subject need find out numb date apr gmt there number you can call which will return synthesized voice telling you the number the line unfortunately for the life can remember what the telephone technicians use all the time used play around with this our dorm rooms since there were multiple phone lines running between rooms probably wouldn help for you post the number since appears different each area for what worth the new orleans area the number easy remember what slmr ask anything don know make something here our city dialing either newer exchanges sic will get synthesized message works great for having people call you back unlabeled pay phones regards bill ronald bill butts gentlemen gentlemen electrical engineering department you can fight here the wichita state university this the war room butts shocker twsu edu
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected article sbinnkap flop engr orst edu noeler xanth orst edu eric richard noel writes hate hard copy manuals and would rather have all docs online not because want copy the program but because its usually faster and and convenient than sifting through old book can find just mho but prefer hardcopy books because you can have three four them open spread across the bed next the desk dorm and reference them while using the program full screen the windows help things come closest good line documentation seen but they generally aren detailed enough and would probably take large amount space even compressed which premium system fact the manuals are the primary reason bought borland compiler instead using the one the lab licensed the lab course got shelf full books help out when stuck each his own off deeper end why does everyone think they need able make backup copy almost all new software must installed the hard disk you are left with the originals your backups think its waste time space and money well makes tempting lend out the backups destroyed about six sets original microsoft word for mac and word for windows may have been bad batch disks don have the faintest idea what happened them they just went bad weren stored near any magnetic fields otherwise mistreated indeed they were only used once given this and the massive headaches finding working set disks fix some the machines that periodically down say having working backups godsend sure wish had them sometimes think murphy law holds true more often than newton when needed them think sortof like snake antivenin the time you have absolutely use for but when you need boy you ever need don have backups originals home but then machine doesn see anywhere near the use abuse these here the lab and consider less risk still usually make working copies them when install them and then eventually use these working copies for something else flames intended just thoughts just mine too btw before anyone notices mentioning copying programs from machine machine when installs here and wonders about the licensing the upper management non student staff course are meticulous checking with providers the software and making sure are sticking the license agreements mark underwood student university kentucky lab assistant boyd hall microlab tiny little division library microlabs mail msunde mik uky edu
sci.electronics	packet radio the article regmad gsusgi gsu edu regmad gsusgi gsu edu michael kraker writes koberg spot colorado edu allen koberg writes looking for any and all information regarding packet radio implementation the software hardware whatever michael kraker question about packet radio deleted georgia state university how about rec radio amateur packet least site there general packet radio non amateur newsgroup that said would definately subscribe packet you want learn about all aspects amateur packet radio both the high and low ends also would get the faq from the group and then post any specific questions that group everything could tell you probably the faq and the people who really know what going all seem packet although they might here too you never know hope helps andy collins yey acollins uclink berkeley edu
sci.electronics	radio electronics free information card article ulqg acsu buffalo edu ubvmsb buffalo edu neil gandler writes how does the radio electronics free information cards work they just send you some general information about the companies that advertise their magazine does also give you sign you for catalog radio electronics sends each company bunch computer printed address labels for all the people who circled that company number the company sends whatever wants normally catalog michael covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt uga edu the university georgia phone athens georgia amateur radio tmi
sci.electronics	lead acid batteries concrete article apr cronkite ocis temple edu camter astro ocis temple edu carter ames writes why does lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored concrete floor decided bring the battery from the lawn mower and the motorcycle from the unheated garage this year preserve them and just went use them and noticed that not only they not work but they act like the two terminals are shorted asked friend and said that you should never that cause ruins them but couldn tell why this topic was beaten death year ago the concrete not the problem lead acid batteries often fail from disuse not being charged for long time but there way the concrete floor could the cause the problem michael covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt uga edu the university georgia phone athens georgia amateur radio tmi
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected article uniwa uwa edu ascott tartarus uwa edu andrew scott writes would expect that rom software would not even need copy protection the program rom would not fit onto hard drive and impossible for the average and even not average user write rom copies the software that still work could never made hmmm now that think about with creative tsr maybe disk swapping could used simulate files single disk you would need tonne disks though there are many programs rom that fit harddisk not all software that big but getting there guido klemans internet rcstage urc tue valid until may listen very carefully will say this only ones michelle the resitance
sci.electronics	atari processors ifarqhar laurel ocs edu ian farquhar writes article apr das harvard edu squish endor uucp shishin yamada writes the atari used cpu just like their entire bit line computers well the game machine wrong has for those who would like know the was without irq nmi and with only address lines giving memory space had one custome chip not asic the sense that word now understood the tia sometimes known the although most other manufacturers list that the cia complex interface adapter tia stands for television interface adapter and handles sound paddles and the minimal video hardware the possessed didn know about being called the thats the cia found the commodore don believe this chip existed when the was around the tia was mapped into the bottom bytes page and shadowed the bottom bytes page get image the screen you had wait until the raster line your picture started load bitmaps for this line into the sprite registers tell them what positions take how many duplicates you wanted etc then all again for the next line this took all the processor time during the visible portion the display there was also standard ram timer riot plus voltage regulator and memory serves timer that all the ram was mapped into the top bytes page and shadowed page the has zero page addressing mode most instructions that both shorter and faster than the normal ones important machine like this have the scratchpad ram page unfortunately also wants its stack page the stack pointer bits and the high byte the address hardwired the iot section was mapped into page somewhere bit registers can remember each bit could independantly set like the and and bit timer with programmable prescaler think this was some power there were interrupts the system many games would set the timer some known time away and something else for while then sit and wait for the timer run down there was logic the box address decoding the riot had least chip select pins probably one active high one active low and imagine the tia was much the same various address lines were fed directly chip selects the likes have rom right the top memory the had use roms with active high chip selects not exactly normal some cartriges had them convert this the more usual active low chip select john west
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected article apr csus edu kschang sfsuvax sfsu edu kuo sheng kasey chang writes byteocide what believe the companies should implement the above plus special patch once the user registers that loudly exclaims upon bootup registered xxxxx address city state zip and disables the above two benefits encourages registration cuts down pirating and makes more traceable because the patch registration message encrypted will quite hard change and therefore provides stable trail who allowed their copy out their hands and thus violated their license agreement you take two copies with different registration compare them byte for byte and you know where they are located usually you will able find out what what after that and what keeps form registering john doe from the company public domain yellow brick road tinseltown something kasey chang guido klemans internet rcstage urc tue valid until may listen very carefully will say this only ones michelle the resitance
sci.electronics	anyone build anything interesting with pic devices just started programming with the pic and like talk similar like minded people have you built anything interesting interested talking about various aspects yes already have the application sheets assembler simulator cheers stuart stuart lea tel fax umist university janet mcc nessie main bldg box internet nessie mcc manchester weather here wish you were beautiful
sci.electronics	looking for telecaption decoder module does any one know where can get telecaption decoder module need build close caption decoder thanks wayne wait till finals are over that when the fun really begins enjoy the sun while its still young and out there when one dreams his home town not wishing that everything could was but wishes that was still young enjoy all again
sci.electronics	making odd resistor values required filters idh nessie mcc ian hawkins writes when constructing active filters odd values resistor are often required something like ohm resistor seems best choose common capacitor values and cope with the strange resistances then demanded there program out there that will work out how best make such resistance given fixed resistors the standard values per decade etc common enough problem yet cant recall seing program that tells that gives starting with and finding prefered values and once wrote such program bbc basic was very crude and took around seconds exhaustive search with small amount intelligence and told you the best combination and the best below you want write one just store the prefered values array and then search the solution space using three nested loops sure you could knock this hour christopher christopher hicks paradise linear gaussian world cmh cam eng also reported taste hot and sweaty
sci.electronics	why circuit boards are green not that the question anything important but still curious why that almost all printed circuit boards are green have seen few blue ones but red yellow company logo etc there technical reason could that the marketing geniuses have not tought about yet juha
sci.electronics	pcmcia newsgroup sci electronics from martin vuille synapse org subject pcmcia does anyone know who contact obtain copy the pcmcia standard thanks olx procontrol kemptville
sci.electronics	electronic design mag newsgroup sci electronics from martin vuille synapse org subject electronic design does anyone know the telephone number for the circulation department electronic design magazine olx procontrol kemptville
sci.electronics	lead acid batteries concrete article apr dmu cph dmu chris hand writes carter ames camter astro ocis temple edu wrote why does lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored concrete floor think because the lead gets coated with lead oxide the battery not being charged discharged remember some advice from ancient car manual guide father had which was use car batteries power garage clock something similar when they not car this supposed prevent the oxidation but idea really works the concrete floor connection red herring could that you stored somewhere that could become covered moisture damp air which would short out the terminals this may contribute discharging but would reversible the same thing happens car citroen damp gets under the bonnet hood and shorts the spark plugs earth won start the solution for the car clean the plug leads and spray with moisture repellant damp the problem then storing the well this off topic but back the days when used drive bangers never found anything that wiping with dry cloth did think the effectiveness myth invented the guy who owns the company battery off the ground may help not sure spraying with would safe since very flammable high percentage petroleum just thought chris steve collyer
sci.electronics	lead acid batteries concrete article athena uga edu mcovingt aisun uga edu michael covington writes article apr cronkite ocis temple edu camter astro ocis temple edu carter ames writes why does lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored concrete floor decided bring the battery from the lawn mower and the motorcycle from the unheated garage this year preserve them and just went use them and noticed that not only they not work but they act like the two terminals are shorted asked friend and said that you should never that cause ruins them but couldn tell why this topic was beaten death year ago seems that the original question was for advice his problem not history lesson think that this question comes from time time then people should get civil answer the concrete not the problem lead acid batteries often fail from disuse not being charged for long time but there way the concrete floor could the cause the problem could anyone please explain what happens with battery and there any cure get back into life michael covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt uga edu the university georgia phone athens georgia amateur radio tmi
sci.electronics	atari processors article uniwa uwa edu john uwa edu john west writes ifarqhar laurel ocs edu ian farquhar writes wrong has for those who would like know the was without irq nmi and with only address lines giving memory space yes but still not for those differences same instruction set course had one custom chip not asic the sense that word now understood the tia sometimes known the although most other manufacturers list that the cia complex interface adapter tia stands for television interface adapter and handles sound paddles and the minimal video hardware the possessed didn know about being called the thats the cia found the commodore don believe this chip existed when the was around yes the same number but entirely different device should have qualified this further stating that this was the pal version the tia not sure that the ntsc tia would have different number the tia was mapped into the bottom bytes page and shadowed the bottom bytes page get image the screen you had wait until the raster line your picture started load bitmaps for this line into the sprite registers tell them what positions take how many duplicates you wanted etc then all again for the next line this took all the processor time during the visible portion the display does anyone the net actually have details the tia this the only device have not yet discovered details about atari australia when asked claimed that their attempts get the programmers documentation for the had failed the head office had refused provide chip selects the likes have rom right the top memory the had use roms with active high chip selects not exactly normal some cartriges had them convert this the more usual active low chip select saw couple cheaper devices with and couple resistors hooked cheap inverter nasty but workable and cheaper than inverter labor costs almost nothing ian
sci.electronics	looking for sti mostek looking integrated circuits for based computer the circuit called sti serial timer interrupt and made mostek mostek called sgs thompson today have been contact with sgs thompson unfortunately they told that sti obsolete question anyone know can get hold that circuits are there any companies that specialize selling circuits that are longer production have contacted several electronic brokers sweden but without any success would appreciate you could give hint where should continue looking even companies the united states would fine since this circuit pretty crucial thanks advance thomas thor royal institute technology stockholm sweden
sci.electronics	help not clever how make power supply article hydra gatech edu prism gatech edu skelton joel phillip writes need make power supply that can take input from cigarette lighter car and drive volts amps know enough know that simple voltage divider with two resistors won right can such thing made from radio shack able parts without too much difficulty jps looked for premade things like this radio shack but none seems any higher than about joel skelton north avenue trade school dept round things prism gatech edu ask for scooter technologies and receive see radio shack has national semiconductor adjustable voltage regulator national part number these devices are rated for input output differential volts amps digi key corp has these parts well several other useful regulators you don have their catalog their phone number can only guess that you may intend recharge vdc nicad battery with this device and right you may want look through some the hobbiest books get various ideas for battery charging circuits first you get stuck mail your fax number you have one and send you some suggestions schematics mail willisw coe clemson edu
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected article uky edu msunde mik uky edu writes article sbinnkap flop engr orst edu noeler xanth orst edu eric richard noel writes hate hard copy manuals and would rather have all docs online not because want copy the program but because its usually faster and and convenient than sifting through old book can find just mho but prefer hardcopy books because you can have three four them open spread across the bed next the desk dorm and reference them while using the program full screen the windows help things come closest good line documentation seen but they generally aren detailed enough and would probably take large amount space even compressed which premium system fact the manuals are the primary reason bought borland compiler instead using the one the lab licensed the lab course got shelf full books help out when stuck each his own agree personally cannot flip from page page screen and retain information easily the written page off deeper end why does everyone think they need able make backup copy almost all new software must installed the hard disk you are left with the originals your backups think its waste time space and money well makes tempting lend out the backups destroyed about six sets original microsoft word for mac and word for windows may have been bad batch disks don have the faintest idea what happened them they just went bad weren stored near any magnetic fields otherwise mistreated indeed they were only used once given this and the massive headaches finding working set disks fix some the machines that periodically down say having working backups godsend sure wish had them sometimes think murphy law holds true more often than newton when needed them think sortof like snake antivenin the time you have absolutely use for but when you need boy you ever need ditto fact work where things are dead the backup good insist having least level backup system seems that whenever you have good backups you never need them but you don have them murphy guarantees that you suffer for don have backups originals home but then machine doesn see anywhere near the use abuse these here the lab and consider less risk still usually make working copies them when install them and then eventually use these working copies for something else flames intended just thoughts just mine too and mine course richard dell
sci.electronics	moisture repellant was lead acid batteries concrete stephen dogmatix inmos stephen collyer writes the same thing happens car citroen damp gets under the bonnet hood and shorts the spark plugs earth won start the solution for the car clean the plug leads and spray with moisture repellant damp the problem then storing the well this off topic but back the days when used drive bangers never found anything that wiping with dry cloth did think the effectiveness myth invented the guy who owns the company back high school used work for detailing company and one the services offered was engine cleaning remove all that oil before you sell the car unfortunately did not have high pressure washer would use one several miles from the shop more than one occasion after washing the engine would not start water would have gotten under the distributor would put plastic bag around try and minimize this around the spark plug wires etc and would nearly impossible try and wipe all these areas down with dry rag the usual solution was carry can and when the car wouldn start spray all the likely areas and would then start the very first time may myth but certainly kept from being stranded car wash rodney radford computer graphics imaging sasrer unx sas com sas institute inc cary
sci.electronics	microstepping does anyone know where get schematic for micro stepping circuit any help would appreciated mcole nmsu edu
sci.electronics	 have some mice that have chip numbered and have not been able find information these any help would appreciated mcole nmsu edu
sci.electronics	switching questions greetings recently decided chuck the linear regulators and learn the black magic art switching power supplies before anyone flames know both have their place anyways built the basic down converters with pretty good results efficiency but running into problems when try design build anything that puts out serious amps know can done have some guts bench but something puzzles using simple choke the storage element basicly toroid with single winding but all commercial models use transformers with many windings traced few and they seem use some the winding for the usual error feedback but some the others seem loose what are they for better than that anyone have full schematic for one these that could get copy love see how they manage squeeze out much from such low volume other problems getting high amps good efficiency are lack sources ideal components calculated and limited knowledge the whole topic doing this own not school mind you fact have yet take any course that covers transistors the answer the accumulation dead commercial models and truning into scavanger not that not what doing now and getting understanding schematics and bit more the mind boggling theory take care goal car battery vac out and the other end vdc vdc and vdc the distance between the two will more than feet gauge but less than feet would like have working model year have chance make filip buy vowel gieszczykiewicz best mail fmgst pitt edu all ideas are mine but they can yours for only respond now live for major winsurfing programming sca and assorted dreams drive linux has and dos has dos worried
sci.electronics	lead acid batteries concrete michael covington mcovingt aisun uga edu wrote this topic was beaten death year ago the concrete not the problem lead acid batteries often fail from disuse not being charged for long time but there way the concrete floor could the cause the problem ditto the only remote and say remote possibility that the ground was real cold the battery might freeze split but then would probably freeze anyway charlie brett collins
sci.electronics	lead acid batteries concrete article apr cronkite ocis temple edu camter astro ocis temple edu carter ames writes was just wondering one thing actually two hope that this the proper place post this subject why does lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored concrete floor decided bring the battery from the lawn mower and the motorcycle from the unheated garage this year preserve them and just went use them and noticed that not only they not work but they act like the two terminals are shorted asked friend and said that you should never that cause ruins them but couldn tell why thanks camter astro ocis temple edu what happens that heard this discussed northern exposure there molecular juxtaposition the molecules the battery and the molecules the concrete this acts attractant ufos actually their crew members and they arrive the scene the battery concrete combination then they proceed suck all the energy out the batteries remedy set the battery nonconcrete floor jack
sci.electronics	caller chip info requested just got caller except bell calls call display and didn know what was talking about when asked for caller got the cheapest display box could find and hope convert serial out the chip used pin dip marked cdt and presume the the date hoping somebody out there knows something about this chip save very strange few hours hooked scope asking friends call again and again post any interesting replies and experiences simon tooke simon sco com
sci.electronics	pin out for does anyone know the pin outs for the eprom have bought several them none which has come with the pin outs any info would appreciated sean kelly sysop amizon bbs always looking for classic video games for the following systems atari atari colecovision atari intellivision vectrex
sci.electronics	question addressing have question about accessing certain addresses chip particulary eprom although don know that much about understand there pin the chip that when voltage applied kicks the address the question how you determine how many bytes the address incremented for example have code want accessed and also say how move the address pointer those positions thanks for any info sean kelly sysop amizon bbs always looking for classic video games for the following systems atari atari colecovision atari intellivision vectrex
sci.electronics	adcom cheap products much deleted about assembly usa other wish focus the subject warm running amplifiers sure the amp runs very fairly hot but that how you get amp sound incredibly good amp that runs hot has bearing how gonna sound the amp you have probably running class the whole day because either the engineer manufacturer that amp wanted skimp heatsinking cooling save costs hmmmmm there correclation between warm running amps and good sound your words does have bearing now don suggest that everyone run out and create combination stove amplifiers that will degrade lifespan but cold running circuit much more suceptible temperature variation with varrying current than warm running one and since junction resistance function temperature this has detrimental effect linearity few facts bias points vary with temperature junction resist varrie with temp adcom products not run class you still don beleive this assertion consider the warm requirements for most good test equipment better yet just listen amplifier warm many designs its quite audible mine about minutes for the output stage many hours for the drivers fortunately the drivers are not switched any experiment when drawing conclusions from listening betcareful seperate the effect device temperature from bias idle current level both have positive correlation with low distortion and good sound quality and high bias results warmer operation all other factors being equal grant
sci.electronics	suggestions audio relays article qsbf iek uky edu billq uky edu billy quinn writes built little project using the radio shack vdc relays switch audio got pretty bad clicks when the thing switched was doing most the common things one supposed when using relays and nothing seemed get rid the clicks question there good relay relay circuit that can use for switching audio that there will noise any kind the audio lines will appreciate any advice references advice also exact part numbers company names etc for the relays will help the first step make sure that there component intentional not the audio lines switched neither the output input presents unintentional level let say they capacitively coupled then putting resistor from each input ground and from the output ground good precaution against leakage any coupling caps presenting level that guaranteed cause click the device presents unintentional level that from more than just coupling capacitor leakage then you need remove the before switching with coupling capacitors your own you have more than one relay each relay switching one input through common output you can use make before break switching where for brief instant both sources are connected during switch change this may mask the switch click audio switch that clickless made taking light bulb and making your own ersatz opto isolator with light dependent resistor ldr sealed inside piece black heatshrink many broadcast consoles use this older but time honored technique claro actually makes complete optisolator like this but don have part number handy radio shack has ldr grab bag you might want try for simple solid state clickless switch that cheap you might try looking the analog switch that commonly available its older predecessor the again the component must removed prior switching other alternatives include jfet switches both discrete and and diode switching which works relatively well surprisingly all the above with their pitfalls and application tips could easily make subject for multi page article solid state switches may induce click their own when turned due charge being injected into the audio line through device capacitance when the control signal changes state techniques minimize this include lowering the impedance the signal paths through the switch differential switching and slowing the risetime the control pulse with the cutting the click can simple putting resistors series with the control pins hope this helps least get you started dave medin phone ssd networking intergraph corp internet dtmedin catbyte ingr com huntsville uucp uunet ingr catbyte dtmedin everywhere you look least around office the opinions expressed here are mine those machine
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected kuo sheng kasey chang kschang sfsuvax sfsu edu wrote the program definitely backupable restored the same machine depends the programmer don use disk drive characteristic the user did upgrade the machine she should reinstall all programs any way document look disk wear and tear this not good idea upgraded motherboard last fall would have been quite pissed any software that would have forced reinstall simply because changed motherboards any info the bios too volatile use checksum are you going require that user install all their software they add ram their computer did that couple weeks ago the bios and software had told this isn the machine you installed would never have used that software again really bad idea did not say that the originals would allow only one install the user conscience should that this silly much easier loan disks friend and let them install than backup your copy already disk and then give them that your scheme isn going stop anyone you know how many bytes you need change wing disable the quiz two yes two and don ask which ones they are you know any assembly language all all anyone needs find the part the code that does the quiz and insert jmp instruction just completely skip not that difficult really and there very little that commpanies can stop this type thing using pklite some similar utility would help but only the resulting compressed exe were tagged uncompressable what believe the companies should implement the above plus special patch once the user registers that loudly exclaims upon bootup registered xxxxx address city state zip and disables the above this far the best idea you presented your post making plainly obvious who registered going stop casual pirates but the determined ones are just going answer joe blow the question what your name this won stop them the long run pirates are always going win this fight they simply have more time work the software and figure out the protection scheme steve madsen sjmadsen nextsrv cas muohio edu ask about linux the free unix
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected article rcstage urc tue rcstage urc tue guido klemans writes article apr csus edu kschang sfsuvax sfsu edu kuo sheng kasey chang writes byteocide what believe the companies should implement the above plus special patch once the user registers that loudly exclaims upon bootup registered xxxxx address city state zip and disables the above two benefits encourages registration cuts down pirating and makes more traceable because the patch registration message encrypted will quite hard change and therefore provides stable trail who allowed their copy out their hands and thus violated their license agreement you take two copies with different registration compare them byte for byte and you know where they are located usually you will able find out what what after that probably but the point the company make the registration patch not you sure you can probably find another registerred user and compare notes but why not hindering you any way unless you are just hacking problem about people who cut too much from quoting and what keeps form registering john doe from the company public domain yellow brick road tinseltown something nothing but you read whole suggestion saying that you register via mail mailing your registration card then the company send you the patch which includes the info you put the registration card kasey chang
sci.electronics	need help with video detection circuit verity jack sns com steve verity writes trying build circuit that detects the presence video blank screen monitoring the and outputs graphics card should able detect the presence single pixel mhz which would mean detecting pulse should also able tell the difference between blank screen about and dim screen say around yes also needs cheap first circuit was dismal failure used compariators each compariator had the input going one the guns the input went reference created voltage divider potentiometer the first problem was that the compariator was way too slow needed get several pixels row before would fire the compariators could have whole screen full text but the second problem that there was more noise the reference then the smallest difference between blank screen and dim screen fact the difference between completely black and completely white only wondering going have amplify the video signals make this work there are faster compariators but they are expensive and require split supplies would need replace quad compariator with three compariators and create whole new power supply circuit this point think what need some sort transistor circuit transistors are fast and cheap and should the trick unfortunately way out league when comes designing transistor circuits appealing the net for help any ideas tips circuits pointers references etc would greatly appreciated yes only sample the output this thing every second don need fast response time all however haven found way take advantage that fact thanks lot for any help anybody might able give course you will have undying gratitude steve verity steve verity maxed midi verity jack sns com order get the response time you need you are better off going ecl slicer which can run off single supply you just need bias some level shifting perhaps get the range check out the ecl books for simple cheap solution dino inqmind bison the inquiring mind bbs winnipeg manitoba
sci.electronics	info wanted about standard phone line greetings novice this area trying gather info standard phone line settings quick questions just want send out beep over the phone lines can with some function generator tie one those phone wires which one those wires should connect dtmf chip audio any help would much appreciated thankx advance handy trisakti mizzou missouri edu
sci.electronics	voltage regulation and current limiting acollins uclink berkeley edu andy collins writes one not quick question throw out there for you guys for our class project need design and build power supply the following specs voltatge adjustable from current limited voltage must stay within designated value for from ripple less than rms course can just use adjustable voltage current limiting regulator chip our problem with the current limiting found stuff the rest the parts the circuit what the supply must presented with load which would draw more than given the supply voltage reduce the voltage that the current will equal one amp thus were short the thing with the ammeter should read one amp measure the current through ohm resistor should read one amp and the output voltage necessity must the only basic idea have seen for the current limiter involves circuit which will pull current off the base the output power transistor and therefore reduce the output does anybody have any ideas could work from thanks advance andy collins yey acollins uclink berkeley edu anybody wants flame this stupid project agree fully but still have its graded you can design for ramp shutoff brick wall current limit even fold back cutoff sounds like you want brick wall current limit your lead correct pull down the bias the series regulator base drive order get the brick wall you need enough voltage gain the current sensor normally darlington the current sensing resistor will adequate but for infinite gain use amp sense the current releative stable voltage reference and use driver turn off the base bias the series pass transistor phase compensation may necessary with this closed loop control system yopu have more than degrees phase shift your feedabck circuit unity gain dino inqmind bison the inquiring mind bbs winnipeg manitoba
sci.electronics	making odd resistor values required filters idh nessie mcc ian hawkins writes when constructing active filters odd values resistor are often required something like ohm resistor seems best choose common capacitor values and cope with the strange resistances then demanded there program out there that will work out how best make such resistance given fixed resistors the standard values per decade etc common enough problem yet cant recall seing program that tells that gives starting with and finding prefered values and cheers ian when trying choose resistor with tolerance better than you need trimmer screen devices can made from adding resitors value parallel since the smaller device will have the error cope with you have choices live with the error tolerance devices for low circuits low sensitivity designs buy resistors with better than tolerance vishay dale use trimmers sot select test dino inqmind bison the inquiring mind bbs winnipeg manitoba
sci.electronics	blue led what the story here all stuck with the regular green red and off yellow orange led what gives anybody have scoop fairly low priced blue led just out curiosity course inspiration comes baden sys bison those who baden inqmind bison seek the baden bari unknown baden inqmind bison the inquiring mind bbs winnipeg manitoba
sci.electronics	tran tube got eimac unused transmitter tube for sale best offer far that getting close what sell for hamfest prices have been about works guaranteed original packaging dave medin phone ssd networking intergraph corp internet dtmedin catbyte ingr com huntsville uucp uunet ingr catbyte dtmedin the opinions expressed here are mine those machine
sci.electronics	lead acid batteries concrete the battery goes dead primarily becaust the floor cold the temperature combined with self discharge promotes sulfation which ruins the plates the battery strongly suspect that the only reason the battery doesn dead quickly dirt surface because cement tends quite cooler
sci.electronics	why circuit boards are green article apr news tut kuusama kaarne tut kuusama juha vtt writes not that the question anything important but still curious why that almost all printed circuit boards are green have seen few blue ones but red yellow company logo etc there technical reason could that the marketing geniuses have not tought about yet juha the color the board shows the composition hence the use original and older boards were bakelite composition and were brown phenolic spelling was tan most non filled fiberglass boards used computers are green filled fiberglass blue teflon white boards evolved more and more demands were made them first boards were used mainly audio circuitry couldn used high voltage because would arc and burn most boards today are fiberglass the type being chosen its use and cost boards satellite and microwave communication are teflon and ceramic the fiberglass and other boards are conductive they actually work more capacitive dialectric but the word conductive simplifies explaination the high frequencies another printed circuit material used mainly automotive and interconnections thin flexible mostly mylar material and used connect the front the vehicle etc the back instead wiring harnesses camcorders use this intereconnect the boards inside where wires would nuisance working generator made hewlet packard right now and the entire board gold plated boy looks expensive hope got most facts right working from memory material read education was pre transister tom tom wagner audio visual technician malaspina college nanaimo british columbia loc fax callsign gda weapon kentucky rifle snail mail site nanaimo british columbia canada not recyle keep everything all standard disclaimers apply
sci.electronics	harris semiconductor answerfax information rrrrr rrrrr iiiii ssss hhhhhh aaaaa rrrrr rrrrr ssss iiiii ssss harris semiconductor now has answerfax answerfax line hours day days week you can instantly receive datasheets and application notes using your touch tone telephone and fax machine the number call not set international calls this time the general decision tree for the answerfax follows the numbers are the available selections welcome harris semiconductors answerfax select you select for are familiar with explanation answerfax answerfax select order select for document the list catalogs document list new products the catalogs linear products get them first data acquisition products digital signal processing products discrete power and intelligent power products application notes select appropriate document select appropriate catalog you want order you want order anything else yes anything else yes you will taken back you will taken back the selection decision the selection decision what phone number for your fax what your name request the instructions end bill werner bill werner wwerner hsscam mis semi harris com harris semiconductor wwerner thor mlb semi harris com melbourne florida life but candle and dream will give flame rush caress steel
sci.electronics	data needed could someone please send enough info talk some kind multifunction peripheral chip made mostek believe any help would greatly appreciated thanks advance dave ddexter solaria mil technology thru broken parts
sci.electronics	data paging info wanted hello looking for information alphanumeric pagers and how the data sent from the paging transmitter and how would about building device decode the paging data like pager does and feed though port planning seperating different paging messages and different pagers software keep amount hardware need down does anyone know what chips motorola are good for decoding numeric and alphanumeric paging data and then stuffing down port basically any baud rate fine already have radio reciever with headphone level output for the audio signal from the paging tower but interested anything you know about pagers including the type radio recievers they use thanks advance theo email theo walt caps maine edu
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected article apr csus edu kschang sfsuvax sfsu edu kuo sheng kasey chang writes article rcstage urc tue rcstage urc tue guido klemans writes article apr csus edu kschang sfsuvax sfsu edu kuo sheng kasey chang writes byteocide what believe the companies should implement the above plus special patch once the user registers that loudly exclaims upon bootup registered xxxxx address city state zip and disables the above two benefits encourages registration cuts down pirating and makes more traceable because the patch registration message encrypted will quite hard change and therefore provides stable trail who allowed their copy out their hands and thus violated their license agreement you take two copies with different registration compare them byte for byte and you know where they are located usually you will able find out what what after that probably but the point the company make the registration patch not you sure you can probably find another registerred user and compare notes but why not hindering you any way unless you are just hacking problem about people who cut too much from quoting and what keeps form registering john doe from the company public domain yellow brick road tinseltown something nothing but you read whole suggestion saying that you register via mail mailing your registration card then the company send you the patch which includes the info you put the registration card kasey chang glad see this idea come because had something similar mind what you had authorization key that computed from the name and address data when the user registers you don even need send executable code just compute his her key and send him her instructions enter the appropriate place the following name joe doe address main street city anytown key ldslfoialsdkcdsngsikhsfd every user needs unique key the executable can propagate much you like the author can respond the registration mail post card whatever unauthorized users would have put with someone else name showing maybe main menu screen well startup message authorized users can make many copies they like upgrade their machines whatever the main motivation here guilt and irritation seeing someone other than yourself the registered owner
sci.electronics	lead acid batteries concrete article tekig pen tek com alany tekig pen tek com alan yelvington writes the battery goes dead primarily becaust the floor cold the temperature combined with self discharge promotes sulfation which ruins the plates the battery strongly suspect that the only reason the battery doesn dead quickly dirt surface because cement tends quite cooler please explain how cement able maintain lower average temperature than dirt sheesh
sci.electronics	pin out for article skelly amiganet chi skelly amiganet chi sean kelly writes does anyone know the pin outs for the eprom have bought several them none which has come with the pin outs any info would appreciated good source information for data this type the library particular the library local college technical school offering courses electronics would have data books this nature
sci.electronics	for sale omti rll scsi adapters have omti scsi adapters for sale these make rll drive look like scsi disk drive each adapter will support two rll drives have used this model omti adapter with amiga and ltd scsi host adapter without problems selling these because got them about the same time decided sell instead expand amiga have never even used them can guarantee they will work with every scsi host adapter they are essentially new box paid make offer regards todd little pecan enet dec com
sci.electronics	cable tvi interference article ainnll rave larc nasa gov watson nimbus larc nasa gov catherine watson writes gave after year letters and phone calls got the impression the fcc was powerless and was the cable company correct the situation isn there some formal action citizen can take that requires the fcc least generate some paperwork robert withrow tel fax net witr rwwa com withrow associates railroad ave swampscott usa
sci.electronics	lead acid batteries concrete article apr mprgate mpr vanderby mprgate mpr david vanderbyl writes article tekig pen tek com alany tekig pen tek com alan yelvington writes the battery goes dead primarily becaust the floor cold the temperature combined with self discharge promotes sulfation which ruins the plates the battery strongly suspect that the only reason the battery doesn dead quickly dirt surface because cement tends quite cooler please explain how cement able maintain lower average temperature than dirt sheesh not the temperature the karma you see dirt has good karma since all organic and full living things but cement all squared off and artificial looking and has lost its karma the process being karma sink sucks all the good karma out the battery which longer able keep charge because wood also good and organic putting board between the battery and the cement will fix the problems the buddha nature the acid but also the lead plate the novice asked the master whether the spongy lead had more the karma whether the solid lead had the master handed the novice battery terminals downward and thus the novice was enlightened scott
sci.electronics	question addressing article skelly amiganet chi skelly amiganet chi sean kelly writes have question about accessing certain addresses chip particulary eprom although don know that much about understand there pin the chip that when voltage applied kicks the address the question how you determine how many bytes the address incremented for example have code want accessed and also say how move the address pointer those positions thanks for any info sean kelly sysop amizon bbs always looking for classic video games for the following systems atari atari colecovision atari intellivision vectrex judging your sig you are trying make some kind game cartridge information how build eeprom cartidge for the vectrex available via anonymous ftp csus edu since you chosen the you are probably trying make multicart this simply load the game images into the eeprom etc your eeprom burner software may allow this you will have assemble the images into one file yourself with suitable gaps wire the cartridge with the lower address bits going the game console and the high bits going switches choose between games directly answer your question above the pin that kicks the address simply another address line for concrete example with the and games images you would wire the cartridge and switches the switches would allow you pick from the games the eeprom
sci.electronics	rams roms with ale latches for article sinnokf sheoak ucnv edu jeff redgum ucnv edu pethybridge writes hello again asked this year ago but still looking getting sick having use you are just getting sick the real estate used the hct you could always use the approach have seen one designer take stuck the chip the middle the eprom socket under the eprom naturally you have use socket with the right dimensions but layout really easy steven murray
sci.electronics	question addressing correction little correction previous post about hour ago please replace the term eeprom with the term eprom wherever appears don not why added that extra every time
sci.electronics	help with phone wire which ones are tip ring article apr husc harvard edu mlevin husc harvard edu michael levin wrote just bought little gizmo that supposed installed series with the tip ring lines the phone wire which ones are those suppose holding regular phone wire such that the little plastic tooth the little plastic square thing with the naked lead ends that you plug into the phone facing down and away from which the wires that see the tip and which the ring please reply mlevin husc harvard edu mike levin assuming you are refering standard pots ground start lines you are looking loop start lines under idle conditions the ring conductor the one with approximately vdc with respect ground while the tip conductor very near ground potential sure reference the telco ground when taking your measurements you are dealing with ground start lines under idle conditions the ring conductor will the one with approximately vdc while the tip conductor would look like floating you may see some potential from line capacitance will bleed off over time remember use the telco ground your reference when making measurements caprice sport coupe
sci.electronics	luser looking for very high speed converter least bits and mhz for research application paper the january issue ieee solid state circuits mentions gaas ghz bit dac anyone know where can find such thing even somewhat slower dac would needless say have looked all the conventional places vitesse motorola national etc etc any pointers would appreciated seema varma
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected article apr miavx acs muohio edu sjmadsen nextsrv cas muohio edu steve madsen writes backupable restored the same machine depends the programmer don use disk drive characteristic the user did upgrade the machine she should reinstall all programs any way document look disk wear and tear this not good idea upgraded motherboard last fall would have been quite pissed any software that would have forced reinstall simply because changed motherboards opinion understandable assume you have tape drive not all have about floppies around for backup you know any info the bios too volatile use checksum are you going require that user install all their software they add ram their computer did that couple weeks ago the bios and software had told this isn the machine you installed would never have used that software again really bad idea ram something you add all the time more like bios manufacturer and processor type etc data cannot used esp with these new flash rom bios machines with updates diskette the other hand make this less intrusive could disguised please insert original disk need file yyyyyy for update would perfectly reasonable sort did not say that the originals would allow only one install the user conscience should that this silly much easier loan disks friend and let them install than backup your copy already disk and then give them that your scheme isn going stop anyone course easier are you saying then the originals should allow only one install what your point you know how many bytes you need change wing disable the quiz two yes two and don ask which ones they are you know any assembly language all all anyone needs find the part the code that does the quiz and insert jmp instruction just completely skip not that difficult really and there very little that commpanies can stop this type thing using pklite some similar utility would help but only the resulting compressed exe were tagged uncompressable know and assembly quite well thank you know exactly which two bytes need changed have the code them too just said don ask which ones didn say don know what that means such hacking can easily discouraged adding anti patching code which does self check upon execution and refuse load crc does not match value stored encrypted course the program could claimed part anti virus code and would not far from the truth what believe the companies should implement the above plus special patch once the user registers that loudly exclaims upon bootup registered xxxxx address city state zip and disables the above this far the best idea you presented your post making plainly obvious who registered going stop casual pirates but the determined ones are just going answer joe blow the question what your name this won stop them the long run did anyone read what wrote that not what wrote meant what said was the program should have certain restriction such the restrict one machine until the program registered with the manufacturer the manufacturer will then supply the then proven legitimate user with patch that will disable the restriction and proudly proclaim the legal copy with the registered xxx screen pirates are always going win this fight they simply have more time work the software and figure out the protection scheme course they will but that was not point the purpose copy protection discourage casual pirates can have copy that sure here and the less sophisticated pirates let look for all those calls int any one determined enough break copy protection can and will succeed they can always backtrace the entire load sequence the program the point copy protection make such attempts take long possible while not intruding upon the uses minimize such intrusion legitimate use pirates who see copy protection challenge love breaking them and amount copy protection will stop them but the rest will stopped how many these hardcore pirates are there compared rest not that many kasey chang
sci.electronics	what exactly ibm slc processor could someone please tell the slc and slc processors ibm putting their thinkpad and other real with math coprocessor really some kludge that should not called all thanks eric eric braeden der verstand war zwar praechtig ohio state university doch das nuetzte ende nicht viel ebraeden magnus acs ohio state edu peter schilling grad
sci.electronics	lead acid batteries concrete article athena uga edu mcovingt aisun uga edu michael covington writes article apr cronkite ocis temple edu camter astro ocis temple edu carter ames writes why does lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored concrete floor decided bring the battery from the lawn mower and the motorcycle from the unheated garage this year preserve them and just went use them and noticed that not only they not work but they act like the two terminals are shorted asked friend and said that you should never that cause ruins them but couldn tell why this topic was beaten death year ago the concrete not the problem lead acid batteries often fail from disuse not being charged for long time but there way the concrete floor could the cause the problem the concrete floor accelerates the problem because heat sink and colder lead acid battery self discharges slightly faster rate that why the old wives tale sitting piece wood the floor works help keep from killing the battery fast insulates the battery thermally you set the battery down piece styrofoam will self discharge even slower the best thing would attach small load such small transistor radio with the volume turned down low and leave constantly but also trickle charge every couple days too shallow cycle the charge the battery such mild exercising lead acid battery the next best thing completely removing the electrolyte for storage you remove the electrolyte may sure you keep separate storage containers for each cell electrolyte and put back into the same cells when you refill the battery this isn critical for brand new battery fully charged state but will maximize the restored output older battery which may not fully charged when you remove the electrolyte for storage neal howard xlh dod computrac inc richardson doh neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer opinions are mine not computrac let learn dream gentlemen and then perhaps shall learn the truth august kekule
sci.electronics	lead acid batteries concrete camter astro ocis temple edu carter ames writes was just wondering one thing actually two hope that this the proper place post this subject why does lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored concrete floor decided bring the battery from the lawn mower and the motorcycle from the unheated garage this year preserve them and just went use them and noticed that not only they not work but they act like the two terminals are shorted asked friend and said that you should never that cause ruins them but couldn tell why don see any way that the concrete floor could anything the battery however you would have been better off leaving them outside keeping them cold would have been better for them than bringing them inside warm battery will self discharge faster than cold one when you are storing battery good idea charge once month letting battery completely dead bad for suspect this what caused your problems robert wiegand motorola inc wiegand rtsg mot com disclamer didn was somewhere else the time
sci.electronics	need help finding parts posted this but blue wave qwk
sci.electronics	self destructing copy protection vhs tape folks borrowed vhs tape from friend and has warning the begining saying that attempts copy the tape will result destroying the copy and the original found this unbelievable playing and recording are two different processes however never seen this tape being sold anywhere don want take the chance even small anyone has experience this kind self destructing video tapes thanks advance lun pang andy lost between frequency and time the unit circle email klp doe carleton dod
sci.electronics	type amplifiers hey can someone clue these and other weird types amplifiers just brief intro the concepts behind these would cool have the clues type and already and stuff but these other ones are mentioned occasionally and dont know what they think type like pwm scheme something thanx advanced mark andrew cmu edu
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected article apr miavx acs muohio edu sjmadsen nextsrv cas muohio edu steve madsen writes you know any assembly language all all anyone needs find the part the code that does the quiz and insert jmp instruction just completely skip not that difficult really and there very little that commpanies can stop this type thing using pklite some similar utility would help but only the resulting compressed exe were tagged uncompressable and even that doesn help there are least two programs available that fixes this unp and dislite both available from simtel and even without them isn that hard fix
sci.electronics	food deydrators article sci electronics newsgroups sci electronics path news edu spool edu howland reston ans net bogus sura net news feed peachnet edu gatech asuvax ennews mcdphx schuch from schuch phx mcd mot com john schuch subject food dehydrators message apr phx mcd mot com sender news phx mcd mot com nntp posting host bopper phx mcd mot com organization motorola computer group tempe distribution usa date mon apr est lines does anybody out there have one those food dehydrators been seeing all over late night recently was wondering they use forced air heat both there heat involved anybody know what temperature they run wife would like one and not inclined pay for box fan and heater seems you should able throw dehydrator together for just few bucks heck the technology only what years old john try mother earth news feb march build food dryer john
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected nothing but you read whole suggestion saying that you register via mail mailing your registration card then the company send you the patch which includes the info you put the registration card the problem with this scheme that when buy game want play that day mailing card and from california would probably take week more jmiller terra colostate edu jeff miller terra lab systems admin
sci.electronics	lead acid batteries concrete neal cmptrc lonestar org neal howard writes the concrete floor accelerates the problem because heat sink and colder lead acid battery self discharges slightly faster rate that why the old wives tale sitting piece wood the floor works help keep from killing the battery fast insulates the battery thermally you set the battery down piece styrofoam will self discharge even slower there are number inaccuracies here fact colder battery will self discharge more slowly this why batteries should stored cool dry place battery placed concrete does not become colder than one placed wood the battery the wood and the concrete will all the same general temperature ignoring temperature fluctuations and thus none will effect the other the best thing would attach small load such small transistor radio with the volume turned down low and leave constantly but also trickle charge every couple days too shallow cycle the charge the battery such mild exercising lead acid battery the next best thing completely removing the electrolyte for storage there need exercise the battery just keep charged trickle charger will the job stuff deleted
sci.electronics	help need would anyone have few extra lying around that could buy off them problem that around here can only perchase them quantities and don need this and can take this financially right now anyone can accomodate with this please reply both for the following mailing addresses thanks baden bari baden sys bison baden inqmind bison true life can only experianced those who not fear death
sci.electronics	atari processors hacker from the old days let see how much trouble can get into telling you what you want know eric weaver sony avtc river oaks pkwy chief engineer kfjc foothill college los altos hills
sci.electronics	cellular antennas need get some info about the cellular antenna market out there right now who are the main companies making them how much they cost what are the specs such gain directivity etc and who the contact person because group here are the univ are researching into this technology will personally mail you copy our entire busineess plan and paper you can any help mail erini enterprise ifp uiuc edu
sci.electronics	cellular antennas need know about the market for cellular antenna technology today who are the main companies the market how much are they selling them for who are the contact people what are the specs will mail oyou our reserach far youcan help erini ifp uiuc edu
sci.electronics	audio electronic parts esp los angeles working audio mixer project but having trouble finding parts want use amps for the gain control stages the ones have found that are good for audio are and but cannot find either these the electronic parts places looked are there any good substitute amps and are there any parts suppliers the area that carry this kind thing kohm dual audio taper slider pots would nice too any info would appreciated thanks advance martin lin triumvir cco caltech edu
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected noeler xanth orst edu eric richard noel writes discussion piracy deleted off deeper end why does everyone think they need able make backup copy almost all new software must installed the hard disk you are left with the originals your backups think its waste time space and money well makes tempting lend out the backups own practice with new software make copy the original floppies second set floppies install hard drive from second set floppies put originals box room number one put copies box room number two accidents happen original floppies accidents can happen the installation floppy sometimes software goes out floppies that are just marginally good gets too close magnet shipping storage had experience with something like the last purchased compiler from reputable vendor the debugger the package just would not install the hard drive way repeated floppy floppy copies finally got clean read the disk don recall used diskcopy copy xcopy made second copy the marginal floppy and installed from that problenms except with typing since regard backup floppies cheap insurance just side the question bob
sci.electronics	los angeles freeway traffic reports article slmb cup com dclaar cup com doug claar writes while driving through the middle nowhere picked knbr clear channel station based los angeles knx will unhappy hear about this sure isn knbr the bay area jamie hanrahan kernel mode systems san diego internet jeh cmkrnl com uucp uunet cmkrnl jeh cis
sci.electronics	blue led article inqmind bison baden inqmind bison baden bari writes what the story here all stuck with the regular green red and off yellow orange led what gives anybody have scoop fairly low priced blue led order emit blue light semiconductor must have band gap energy within the region electron volts according physical electronics prof you can get led with that band gap that why you don find blue leds for that matter some other colour leds that not say that blue leds can found seen blue leds sold but they were just your typical visible light led blue plastic covering they didn emit very much light source solid state electronic devices ben streetman prentice hall right planet wrong universe douglas adams took the bones out wouldn crunchy whizzo
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected wrote commercial program called game maker can you guess what does what have document protect answer question page line which real pain also allow the user register sending card and computing based their name the system works that gotten lots registration cards hear that the program has been cracked though someone two people actually called support one with question the other wanting buy our graphics libraries right anyway anyone wants help catch cracker and has the cracked version mail won accuse you unless you the cracker course andy stone stonea suned yale edu andy stone stonea suned yale edu
sci.electronics	blue led yqde ecf toronto edu gladman ecf toronto edu gladman aviv writes article inqmind bison baden inqmind bison baden bari writes what the story here all stuck with the regular green red and off yellow orange led what gives anybody have scoop fairly low priced blue led order emit blue light semiconductor must have band gap energy within the region electron volts according physical electronics prof you can get led with that band gap that why you mistaken they exist the semiconductor silicon carbide and they are inefficient and expensive the bandgap around don find blue leds for that matter some other colour leds that not say that blue leds can found seen blue leds sold but they were just your typical visible light led blue plastic covering they didn emit very much light the ones have are clear plastic pray tell what would make typical led emit blue light david josephson davidj rahul net
sci.electronics	how drive array leds have project mind that requires array leds that can addressed individually microprocessor say there lsi that designed drive led array including ram hold the array state failing that some way multiplexing the display don have latch bit for each led using discrete latch want avoid having huge board covered with possible thanks advance phil torre ptorre washington edu
sci.electronics	detector cards radio shack stores sell them here the states not sure intertan carrying these for australia not cost usd you charge them under fluorescent then they glow when exposed paul opitz radio shack publications
sci.electronics	looking for toshiba specs looking for some specs for toshiba appears power amp housed pin inline package and used mitsubishi vcr circa motor controller for the tape drive checking the oldest master have don see listed and appears have been discontinued anyone has anything this part greatly indebted thanks advance aaron
sci.electronics	power signal surges home clewis ferret ocunix chris lewis writes article jmoinn rave larc nasa gov kludge grissom larc nasa gov article drand apr spinner osf org drand spinner osf org doug article randall woof randall informix com randall rhea wri hams can legally run watts very unlikely however that ham would running that kind power from car ham rigs not possible either you need about amp alternator for just the amplifier can just see you need slow down downgrade you hit the push talk button now that indeed possible good friend mine running about pep from his car yes does have second alternator yes calls the rig electronic brake since the engine noticeably slows when the key down has been while since knew the electronics ham radio but seem remember that pep actually the real power which makes pep actually around was disremember effective transmitted power also odd that takes into account antenna height and geometry which why station with klystron might advertise megawatt their antenna the top the tower this like sears though real watts still isn impossible about with alternator less the alternator produces higher voltages only three horsepower taking into account inefficiencies you feel when you hit the key but not too much chris lewis clewis ferret ocunix phone canada psroff info psroff request ferret ocunix ferret list ferret request ferret ocunix sorta depends what you drive remember running two channel motorola with vibrator power supply and about tubes volkwagen the poor little generator had heck time and you keyed the mic night you needed stationary because your lights got awful dim isn progress wonderful emd ham almanac robert smits ladysmith
sci.electronics	cleaning electronic equipment just quick question what standard lab solvents can used clean electronic equipment and components safely not corrode dissolve short out etc the equipment water methanol ccl etc not electronics type surprise surprise and want avoid using freons thanks adrian
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected article sbinnkap flop engr orst edu noeler xanth orst edu eric richard noel writes strongly disagree think most pirating done amateurs who won copy the program diskcopy can hate disagree but will note don pirate software nor trade simply have met and talked extensively with those who have that the fbi can tap someone else phone most pirating done people who don use the programs they pirate cracked program tends get passed resplendant the various graphics and animations that advertise whoever performed the modification admit that large portion the business world involved giving copies programs one fellow workers maybe taking home for use one own but such trading tends interdepartmental most spread throughout the business whole how many times have you had someone walking from business business letting people copy disks mostly matter convenience person sees program they want use and they feel justified making copy since someone already paid for etc etc note this starting change bit not much though you talking max goal pirated copies bet that anything that will beat diskcopy and can easily copied from hard drive will suffice what about commercially available copy programs copyii how about programs like teledisk that can things diskcopy can and before anyone disputes this because they feel that those who would copy wouldn know about this after working with people around computers one comes realize that the average user doesn know much any computer enthusiast least better pre guessing commands and how use them can you sit down and use something without reading the manual and these people who are doing the pirating not joe windows user who can remember few arguments the dir command hate hard copy manuals and would rather have all docs online not because want copy the program but because its usually faster and and convenient than sifting through old book can find really find evens out the online stuff can read through faster but you stuck reading linear flow start finish unless you jump ahead with search such book though you can flip through faster than you can read text screen and they usually have nifty index too but partially agree often wish could grep something that was written down off deeper end why does everyone think they need able make backup copy almost all new software must installed the hard disk you are left with the originals your backups think its waste time space and money well makes tempting lend out the backups what they need install the idea backup still holds the original disk goes bad they out luck for about weeks which the usual turn around time for company send new set disks they without charge edward jajko the nekomancer ejajko hertz elee calpoly edu mein fuhrer can walk doctor strangelove
sci.electronics	long distance detection article cstrockb apr csws sunysb edu cstrockb sunysb edu caleb strockbine writes could make for some interesting choreography light and sound could controlled directly the position dancer stage the number dancers stage neat you could even build spotlight that follows the dancer around stage can you tell more about what you doing sounds like very cool program tis only gleam eye this point have yet chose tracking method the initial requirement was design system locate dancer one eight zones across the stage did some experiments with pyroelectric detectors and found them difficult align get definite zone transition and dancers stand still alot their signature goes away the good thing about pryoelectrics that their signal proportional the size the warm body body part and the velocity said body this could useful for detecting the intensity dance gesture dancers also really hate wear little boxes and batteries strapped their bodies but they really need emitting some kind signal tracked the current toy have been working with program called mandala for the amiga used with live video digitizer this works with video camera trained the stage you can set thresholds for zone within the field view and object brighter than the threshold will trigger event events can midi objects sequences amiga sounds graphic objects been fun play with but the documentaion arcane and the digitizer noisy still very appealing the dancers don have wear any appliances you can have ots zone speaks midi which can used control lights and don have build any electronics all done with lighting and video brightness and contrast adjustments have yet anything particularly useful artistic but have hopes
sci.electronics	need help with video detection circuit verity jack sns com steve verity writes trying build circuit that detects the presence video blank screen monitoring the and outputs graphics card should able detect the presence single pixel mhz which would mean detecting pulse should also able tell the difference between blank screen about and dim screen say around yes also needs cheap fact the difference between completely black and completely white only wondering going have amplify the video signals make this work try differential amplifier put back back diodes between the collectors restrict the voltage swing have flow with ohm collector and keep the stray below try run collector your logic allen sullivan
sci.electronics	blue led article yqde ecf toronto edu gladman ecf toronto edu gladman aviv writes order emit blue light semiconductor must have band gap energy within the region electron volts according physical electronics prof you can get led with that band gap that why you don find blue leds for that matter some other colour leds that not say that blue leds can found seen blue leds sold but they were just your typical visible light led blue plastic covering they didn emit very much light your professor just plain wrong although blue leds are one heck lot less efficient than red ones typical visible light leds don really exist leds have fairly narrow region transmittence since the fermi energy around either side the band gap falls off exponentially blah blah source solid state electronic devices ben streetman prentice hall you might want check the copyright date that blue leds most certainly exist got bunch work cree research makes them probably along with other companies cree big materials science though they advertise the stuff like physics today etc you can buy them from jameco think digikey definitely and plenty other distributors actually these days you can get typical visible light led called rainbow led and forgotten who makes they advertise edn and many the other trade rags though combines reg green and blue led all one chip and has four leads nifty device although probably fairly expensive joel kolstad
sci.electronics	long distance detection sburton dres dnd stan burton writes would like able detect the angular position low accuracy emitting source distance about meters more better daylight the source could emitting signature leaning toward khz square wave with duty cycle designed and built hardware that would output logic level from tone detector upon detecting microwatt led feet away used motorola mrd biased linearly feedback loop servo out variations sunlight and from lights used lenses allen sullivan
sci.electronics	power signal surges home though real watts still isn impossible about with alternator less the alternator produces higher voltages anyone claiming that real watts isn possible mobile should dig through their back issues and think qst for description the mobile installation that most revered oms recall this included heath amp what was that model number something mind turning the usual friday mush and was run full out fairly regulary the car electrical system had been modified including rather seriously heavy duty alternator but such installation has been done and possible this installation was the source the legendary story sitting the car and paging his wife over the department store systems bob myers hewlett packard opinions expressed here are not systems technology div those employer any other myers com fort collins colorado sentient life form this planet
sci.electronics	moisture repellant was lead acid batteries concrete please explain how cement able maintain lower average temperature than dirt sheesh hope david isn going too upset with for sticking nose here again but here goes isn the average temperature that the key factor here but rather which better transferring the heat out the presumably warmer than ground temperature battery call question thermal conductivity insulating ability thermal mass whatever you like question why does concrete floor feel cooler than the surrounding dirt when you place your hand bob myers hewlett packard opinions expressed here are not systems technology div those employer any other myers com fort collins colorado sentient life form this planet
sci.electronics	switching questions anyways built the basic down converters with pretty good results efficiency but running into problems when try design build anything that puts out serious amps know can done have some guts bench but something puzzles using simple choke the storage element basicly toroid with single winding but all commercial models use transformers with many windings traced few and they seem use some the winding for the usual error feedback but some the others seem loose what are they for better than that anyone have full schematic for one these that could get copy love see how they manage squeeze out much from such low volume most commercial switchers not use magnetics for their energy storage that handled the big caps the primary side those which linearly regulated power supply would considered the filter caps coming right after the bridge the transformer just that transformer there primarily step the voltage down although the inductance seen the switch transistor the primary side not negligible anyone who zapped said transistor from either failing get one with high enough breakdown voltage neglecting include snubber diode across would tell you actually many transistors intended for switcher use today have the diode built the basic switched mode power supply operates something like this somewhat simplified manner the line rectified produce high voltage more less unregulated rail the energy storage filter caps appear across this rail does the switching transistor the transistor chops the current into the primary side the transformer resulting stepped stepped down pulses out the secondary which are then rectified and filtered least one the transformer outputs sampled and fed back the control circuit for the switching transistor which acts pulse width modulation pwm fashion control varying the pulse width the amount energy being dumped into the primary and therefore the voltage coming out the secondary the remaining outputs may allowed simply run whatever value they will more less tracking the regulated output they may have some additional linear regulation added you may also note that the feedback between the regulated output and the pwm control which most typically not done via direct electrical connection this due various safety standards which require primary and secondary circuits electrically isolated often the feedback path involves optoisolator meet this requirement while the transformer isn the primary energy storage device these designs this does not mean that the energy stored the transformer can ignored besides the inductive kick giving the switch transistor bad time noted above you also need worry about getting all the energy that went the transformer back out again one way another some designs this happens more less automatically but others you need take special care ensure that the transformer core doesn saturate which again would have disastrous results best left the imagination not any stretch the imagination power supply designer hopefully real one will come along soon and clean any gross errors the above bob myers hewlett packard opinions expressed here are not systems technology div those employer any other myers com fort collins colorado sentient life form this planet
sci.electronics	does any one know what biggest rom for present please replay yxy usl edu thanks lot
sci.electronics	help need thermal specs for doing some work the mac iisi and need some information the cpu have the motorola rev but fear out date does not have the characteristics for the cpu package type used the iisi what need the theta thermal characteristic the junction case thermal resistance for the plastic style package you have this info would appreciate your sending email postings suffer few days delay here you are keen this stuff also interested more accurate value for the typical power dissipation assuming watts using the maximum decreased the way the drops the increases your manual has chart power dissipation like know what reads and thanks for reading james macphail jmacphai cue bounce try james mirg phy queensu
sci.electronics	lead acid batteries concrete article apr cronkite ocis temple edu camter astro ocis temple edu carter ames writes was just wondering one thing actually two hope that this the proper place post this subject why does lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored concrete floor decided bring the battery from the lawn mower and the motorcycle from the unheated garage this year preserve them and just went use them and noticed that not only they not work but they act like the two terminals are shorted asked friend and said that you should never that cause ruins them but couldn tell why not the concrete floor that does the problem that lead acid cells self discharge over time even high quality cells gates for instance will discharge over month period time non sealed cells self discharge even faster the battery was not completly charged when left sitting probably discharged past the the point where cell sulfiding occurs which many cases means ruined battery datalog consulting tucson ejm datalog com noao datalog com ejm
sci.electronics	voice synth chips does anyone know where can get some voice synthesis chips looking for something like the ones that the time and date stamp answering machines
sci.electronics	lead acid batteries concrete why does lead acid battery discharge and become dead totally unuseable when stored concrete floor when will people learn the trouble the ballast the concrete and every fool knows ballast resistors are used discharge batteries furthermore very silly store the battery with the terminals downwards you must have done contact the ballast seriously self discharge the actual problem stated others does vary greatly with certain types and freaks show low self discharge have fact seen ordinary automotive batteries which have effectively held full charge for years must possible your garage heated store the batteries somewhere cooler but above freezing flat batteries freeze more easily occasionally charge once month even leave float charge permanently special charger don this unless you know what you are doing seriously dangerous anouther point the unsuitability automotive batteries for things like electric mowers they are not generally designed repeatedly deep discharged and their life may greatly shorted some early zero maintenance automotive batteries fact responded full discharge with total failure shortly afterwards but modern ones are superb yrs miles and counting mail tchannon black demon tchannon cix compulink
sci.electronics	uart needed really break detect article tau ceti isc com jimc tau ceti isc com jim cathey wrote article alan alan apple com alan mimms writes actually detecting break done watching for character containing all zero bits with the framing error resulting from its receipt this true enough but means that the line stayed the zero bit state even past the stop bit time slot which basically indicates break there special way detect break that have found other than this there magic signal generated uarts etc zilog scc break detect this very popular part but has number quirks especially hdlc mode signetics duscc rsr break start detect rsr break end detect two the bits the receiver status register you can enable interrupt either these bits going high too also only one null will put the fifo per break detected this simply the best serial chip ever worked with many less quirks than the scc which imho second best death devices and thought knew lot about serial devices perhaps should just keep big mouth shut sorry alan mimms alan apple com apple alan opinions are generally portable macintosh software group pretty worthless but apple computer they are own art without engineering dreaming engineering without art calculating steven roberts computing across america
sci.electronics	analog switches balanced demodulators msf skaro arizona edu michael fulbright writes trying build synchronous demodulator and hit snag application want able change the gain amp amplifier from controlable via digital input the most obvious way come with use analog switches adjust the gain the amp the only analog switch have experience with the unfortunately want switch signal which goes from about and the only for positive signals have recently used the switch bipolar signal simply ran the off bipolar supply this case long your analog input signal stays between the supply rails the will work fine course your control logic input must use the logic low and the logic high reference that either all your driving logic must cmos with the same bipolar supply you must provide some kind voltage level shifting circuit between the and the control logic case was able use the bipolar supply all the way carlos puig cpuig infoserv com san jose
sci.electronics	flash leds with sound looking for circuit that will flash led response the output from walkman cassette player how could this don want just turn want strobe once speak per every beep put cassette tape would better use circuit based the volume the beeps the cassette better for the leds respond tone certain frequency there any easy way either these looking for the simplest circuit possible guess what asking for some sort color organ but not quite let trt explain again going have pattern beats beeps cassette tape the tape you hear beep pause beep pause beep pause etc with speed increasing time goes want synchronize led probably two them with the beeps the cassette tape the led with each beep would and off real quick generating strobe light sort effect the rapidity the beeps the tape would turn effect the rapidity the blinking the leds and there was sound the tape except for background his the leds would remain off please help thanks dana
sci.electronics	blue led article inqmind bison baden bari baden inqmind bison writes anybody have scoop fairly low priced blue led hosfelt stock both mcd mfg liton call disclaimer dont know these guys from bar soap but the price looks reasonable
sci.electronics	luser article apr sol ctr columbia edu seema madvlsi columbia edu seema varma writes looking for very high speed converter least bits and mhz for research application paper the january issue ieee solid state circuits mentions gaas ghz bit dac anyone know where can find such thing even somewhat slower dac would needless say have looked all the conventional places vitesse motorola national etc etc any pointers would appreciated think video brooktree sells whole line dacs that can used normally for graphics applications either ohm systems for example the can had speeds about mhz mhz and mhz with the seema varma rick spanbauer suny stony brook
sci.electronics	laser bubblejet article snx black demon tchannon black demon writes there one wild difference between the two printers laserprinter page printer whilst inkjet line printer this means that laserprinter can rotate graphic images whilst inkjet cannot few drivers actually use this facility there also the matter downloadable fonts and mail tchannon black demon tchannon cix compulink have deskjet and thought give little info the deskjet will landscape mode like the laserjets can say other inkjets though also the deskjet can downloadable fonts only you buy softfont memory cart for you said the laserjet can rotate graphic image hmmmmm the deskjet can only rotate text nevermind
sci.electronics	blinking leds where can buy blinking leds besides radio shack does anyone sell blinking leds with variable flash rate voltage guess what hertz pulse rate are they adjustable set like blinking leds that can set for approx something like that interested what out there for flash rates like the idea leds with flasher circuits already them hate soldering ics general guess don have hell lot patience thanks dana
sci.electronics	how you build neural networks subject says all though should specify that looking for solutions that don require purchasing specific chips etc other words there some sort neural network circuit could build after visit local shack matthew david moss blessed are the pure heart for they internet mmoss sunysb edu will see god bitnet mmoss sbccmail matthew
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected think few things are being missed overall here first all anyone with dos manual can copy disk copy anything hidden files dont far you are dealing with anyone who not comletely dos ignorant off hard disk professional crackers aren interested copying disks they are programmers who get some thrill out going through unassembly listings programs disable copy protection such serial number dialog boxes volume label checks and who knows what when comes computer games those people are the minority however experience with the world people and software seems that good majority people say will some point copy friend program gee you really oughta try this accept copy these are people who normally would buy software package without but decided that just once wouldn matter the last thing people who own are responsible for more than one computer most people aren going spend computers for the same software package they will just install times especially things like dos upgrades are having fun yet
sci.electronics	multiple inputs for can anyone offer suggestion problem having have several boards whose sole purpose decode dtmf tones and send the resultant ascii these boards run the serial interface need run the boards somwehat simultaneously need able them the problem how hook serial devices one inexpensivley that all can send data simulataneously close any help would greatly appreciated abhin singla
sci.electronics	multiple inputs for article uicvm uic edu uicvm uic edu writes can anyone offer suggestion problem having have several boards whose sole purpose decode dtmf tones and send the resultant ascii these boards run the serial interface need run the boards somwehat simultaneously need able them the problem how hook serial devices one inexpensivley that all can send data simulataneously close any help would greatly appreciated are the boards all intelligent run microcontrollers the easiest thing would have another line that says that one the boards talking the when this line was true the other boards could all hold off and not send their data this isn perfect solution though since you have worry little about making sure two boards don decide talk the exact same time other than that think you will need hook each board something that speaks this actually isn hard expensive used though assuming the boards talk relatively slowly bps slower the pics can coordinate things between themselves multiplex the data this really just forbicly adding the suggestion the first paragraph your system and assumes that each board doesn talk more than the time for very long since pic isn going able buffer more than maybe some bytes you might want check into the prices multi serial card for your though recently bought boca research card parallel ports ports for very reasonable joel kolstad
sci.electronics	self destructing copy protection vhs tape article klp quark klp doe carleton lun pang writes borrowed vhs tape from friend and has warning the begining saying that attempts copy the tape will result destroying the copy and the original found this unbelievable playing and recording are two different processes however never seen this tape being sold anywhere don want take the chance even small anyone has experience this kind self destructing video tapes have always thought that wanted send the police tape with ransom demand send cnn video tape see they wanted buy would place small magnet near the take spool the tape would erased was played who would think check john
sci.electronics	bit converter once upon time long long ago this news group someone posted schematic for bit converter well just found use for the little monster anyone out there still got this text file had flip flop resistor and cap and comparator amp think would extremely thankful anyone who could mail the schematic post the news group beware the light the end the tunnel may oncoming dragon mcorbin oucsace ohiou edu
sci.electronics	blue led article yqde ecf toronto edu gladman ecf toronto edu gladman aviv writes that why you don find blue leds for that matter some other colour leds that not say that blue leds can found seen blue leds sold but they were just your typical visible light led blue plastic covering they didn emit very much light sorry charlie have dozen very blue led bench right now they have clear plastic case and when lit are absolutely blue the hue sort summer day cloudless sky blue but make mistake they are blue you can buy them from digikey circuit specialist jameco think led tronics stanley optoelectronics and others the current price around each for small quantities will also selling them through mail order company the near future weeks write for details interested john
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected hmmm possibility for the software registration conondrum would have the distributor register the copy when the software was sold the clerk sticks the store and asks for the buyers later pirated versions showed they could tracked the original purchaser addition copies which were sent distributors stores would have vendor reg serial order track store piracy possible additional program security schemes would having monthly password changes which necessitate user call and registration inconvenient taking dire legal action anyone caught expensive encryption crc check self modifying code limited effectiveness have independent watchdog program the installation setup config memory manager etc which would check the main program crc only effective above methods best have the above watchdog circulating virus which would trash cracked copies the program and the offenders hard drive risky and probably illegal certainly immoral new ideas aren terribly feasible implement presented but thought threw them out people could think variations that might effective what the problem with parallel port security keys haven used anything that had hardware key copy protection schemes don know what the drawbacks are know the companies that make them claim they uncrackable but seen cracks autodesk studio floating around don have one don ask and had heard that had parralel port keys vamilliron othello ucd edu apologies rambled but inhibits communication skills greatly
sci.electronics	laser bubblejet inkjet and bubblejet printers are the same tech bubblejet was trademarked cannon and inkjet was belive have seen both and own bubblejet apple stylewriter which has cannon engine with dpi rated output the output very good with quality paper which very importaint cheap paper gives bad results use sealed paper and the only differenc that the ink less dark than toner compaire the apple personal laserwriter ntx but then again the difference david smith like skate the other side the ice dasmith suntan usf edu didn and don know anything smithd eggo csee usf edu either usf better not know here
sci.electronics	flash leds with sound article kepler unh edu dmn kepler unh edu there seeker born every minute writes looking for circuit that will flash led response the output from walkman cassette player how could this don want just turn want strobe once speak per every beep put cassette tape would better use circuit based the volume the beeps the cassette better for the leds respond tone certain frequency there any easy way either these looking for the simplest circuit possible guess what asking for some sort color organ but not quite let trt explain again going have pattern beats beeps cassette tape the tape you hear beep pause beep pause beep pause etc with speed increasing time goes want synchronize led probably two them with the beeps the cassette tape the led with each beep would and off real quick generating strobe light sort effect the rapidity the beeps the tape would turn effect the rapidity the blinking the leds and there was sound the tape except for background his the leds would remain off please help thanks dana try looking magizine called radio electronics may issue page there circuit for midi light controller there andy andy belville taken long time but belvilad dunx ocs drexel edu fallen love with beautiful woman
sci.electronics	rams roms with ale latches for article sinnokf sheoak ucnv edu jeff redgum ucnv edu pethybridge writes hello again asked this year ago but still looking getting sick having use didn catch your posting one year ago but presume you like leave out extra latch presume you allready know there but that couldnt the question could during student trainee project discouvered nice device psd from waferscale integration one single plcc think was package contained rom ram lines and programmable addressdecoder far can recall can hooked directly with mcs series neat huh but needs programming before assembly wasn suitable for project perhaps usefull for you future plans greetings
sci.electronics	self destructing copy protection vhs tape klp doe carleton lun pang writes folks borrowed vhs tape from friend and has warning the begining sayi that attempts copy the tape will result destroying the copy and the original found this unbelievable playing and recording are two differen processes however never seen this tape being sold anywhere don want take the chance even small anyone has experience this kind self destructing video tapes thanks advance lun pang andy lost between frequency and time the unit circ email klp doe carleton dod put bluntly they are full paying tape playing tape there difference whether the output goes second vcr how the vcr reacts this signal different story see messages pertaining macrovision copy protection order for the tape self destruct would have have circuitry its own within the tape case the circuit would have somehow magically determine what the output the vcr connected the circuit would then have have erasing head actually anything pretty lame scare tactic seen something similar bbs when the sysop wanted could have message sent the user end saying that sending the code format your victor inqmind bison the inquiring mind bbs winnipeg manitoba
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected article dvh fan ucdavis edu othello ucdavis edu victoria milliron says possibility for the software registration conondrum would have the distributor register the copy when the software was sold the clerk sticks that kind extra work that one cannot expect the store people imho would easier companies sell their software cheaply possible and sell the customers detail manuals for the brain deads quick reference books how books and videos paid support hot line for the registered purchasers these can part their package have seen many books teach people how use dos and other software suspect either users can read the manuals they don have manuals either way there made btw books are quite bit more expensive reproduce than disk what the problem with parallel port security keys haven used anything that had hardware key copy protection schemes don know what the drawbacks are know the companies that make them claim they uncrackable with the popularity multitasking and pseudo multitasking systems windoze mack system pretty easy run debugger and figure out the protection schemes disassembling tracing trapping the application during run time schemes like compressed software special loaders would easy pray even beginner hackers hardware keys unless well designed and totally transparent pain the having using piece software under windoze that uses hardware key the key interfers with the printer stuff with other programs and often has unplugged for those software work properly but seen cracks autodesk studio floating around don have one don ask and had heard that had parralel port keys all the hacker has remove modify code that communicate with the port vamilliron othello ucd edu apologies rambled but inhibits communication skills greatly lee elec eng grad student windoze mack are not trademarked
sci.electronics	needed watt fan can someone tell where find volt watt fans that fit the standard computer mounting size and inch wide and inches diagonal from hole hole hole where bolt screw goes through have found higher noisy fans that are watt but need quite fan can use volt well but found just about all volt fans noisy also find that the fans are not only quieter but the blade shape has lot with have dead fan that was quiet day has long blades like fan blades tturbo engine jet the only way can describe the dead fan etri model actually not dead just makes hideous rattle noise stealthy qualities are void thanks
sci.electronics	proposal alt fan tesla for discussion nikolai tesla who else russ nelson sun soe clarkson edu businesses persuade governments force
sci.electronics	board layout help have few questions about laying out pcb using easytrax for dos which great program but what question when laying out traces what thickness should they mainly designing low voltage low current boards for micro controller apps what should pad sizes for resistors will turning commercial pcb maker produce these boards and was wondering what the minimum distance traces should from each other well any info would great thanks anton
sci.electronics	pink noise pink noise and white noise are equal amounts all frequencies this most cases around the range pink white are used adjust for room dynamics and stuff like that there are few out the market that have pink noise built most all from audio control have them know the does
sci.electronics	volt from battery article ufig news cso uiuc edu martyj mrcnext cso uiuc edu martin johnson writes need small battery powered voltage capacitive discharge supply deliver joules volts the ubiquitous camera flash circuit what want but cant get mine apart without breaking charlie brett suggestion buy one the disposable flash cameras use the film then take the thing apart good one note though that you won get particularly precise voltage out such thing and may single point design that won adapt well off nominal operation the things are easy dismantle the key piece information that when you advance the film one them you are winding into the film cassette unwound from the cassette the factory when the camera made darkroom needed for dismantling standard film just take the cassette for processing all the camera store people when you bring one the disposables rip apart toss the film cassette into the processed bin and throw the battery one trashcan and the rest the camera another you take apart yourself you get alkaline battery still with fair bit life and all kinds little bits and pieces from the camera expect you could even load and use the camera you were really determined svr resembles high speed collision henry spencer toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.electronics	lead acid batteries part thought the first thread was hilarious here goes another post some more background information what has happened poor batteries one year left the batteries the garage the garage unheated they were left their places that they needed one the riding lawnmower what lux and one each motorcycle the battery the riding lawnmower was about years old and one the cycle batteries was new and one was around years old upon spring time discovered that all the batteries were dead and needed recharged they all worked properly except for the older ones and they had replaced about halfway through the summer they had originally been stored the garage and think remember dad charging them spring last year decided bring them the basement which has two parts one dirt and brick and the other concrete brought all three and discovered the spring about days ago that not only were the batteries dead but when put the charger them the charger said hmmmmmmmm and the amp meter read around other words was pinned the internal circut tripped and went the other batteries they were the same realizing that still had gigantic sailboat batteries also lead acid decided put the charger them these had been sitting for around and half years the brick and dirt part and noticed that they only needed small charge around hours trickle tested them using them the local gas station for giving jump starts and they worked fine for around this leads believe one several things bought really tty batteries last year sorta true the concrete has something with the discharge the batteries there was enough moisture short out the terminals the room where the concrete the dirt room was able absorb the moisture the air better than concrete btw can almost waterski the dirt room any other ideas could the aliens anything possible
sci.electronics	moisture repellant was lead acid batteries concrete article hpfcso com myers hpfcso com bob myers writes isn the average temperature that the key factor here but rather which better transferring the heat out the presumably warmer than ground temperature battery bob why the battery warmer than ground temperature the time scales question and with the considerably reduced temperature swings several feet underground there isn going any major temperature difference between the battery and what sitting question why does concrete floor feel cooler than the surrounding dirt when you place your hand because the temperature your hand unlike that the battery determined the balance between internal heat production and external heat loss you feeling the greater rate heat loss from object your hand which kept much warmer than its surroundings the case object with significant internal heat production this will affect how quickly comes into equilibrium with its surroundings started out not equilibrium with them but won affect the final temperature for the same reason windchill affects whether you will freeze but not whether water will freeze svr resembles high speed collision henry spencer toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected article uky edu msunde mik uky edu mark underwood writes article sbinnkap flop engr orst edu noeler xanth orst edu eric richard noel writes hate hard copy manuals and would rather have all docs online not because want copy the program but because its usually faster and and convenient than sifting through old book can find just mho but prefer hardcopy books because you can have three four them open spread across the bed next the desk dorm and reference them while using the program full screen the windows help things come closest good line documentation seen but they generally aren detailed enough and would probably take large amount space even compressed which premium system fact the manuals are the primary reason bought borland compiler instead using the one the lab licensed the lab course got shelf full books help out when stuck each his own also much easier scribble corrections hard copy manual jeff white jhwhit ulkyvx louisville edu
sci.electronics	circuit list locations here list get when was combing through some microfilm one day here drexel while completely board most these circuits are pretty easy constuct and can done novice this basically some stuff that could prove useful you without having sit down and either design buy the stuff not good word but tired right now hope you enjoy you have any additions send them and add them the list they don have from this particular magazine they just have interesting radio electronics year month page article name and discription april car audio amplifier watts may midi light controller light control from music input solid state relay digital altimeter june electronic thermostat february audio sweep marker generator frequency response april line power from volts vdc vac watts june electronic compass august speaker protector sept solid state tesla coil oct vocal effects mixer nov music hold play music for someone who hold the phone dec thd analizer battery tool electronic fuse jan acoustic field generator phone activated audio muting circuit feb frequency probe radar detector tester march universal laboratory power supply april morse rtty detector capacitance adaptor capacitance add for dmm solid state wiper control may universal descrambler for july digital dashboard for car august digital pressure gauge sept vocal stripper take the vocals away from music oct rocket altimeter model rockets dec benchtop frequency counter jan carrier current audio transmitter audio through your house wiring plasma display globe advanced control system feb carrier current receiver march audio amp for house car high power may extender extender for infra red remotes july light beam communication digital capacitance meter nov decade box digital compass dec programmable phasor property guard july meter part august meter part nov electronic combonation lock sept stun gun june click and pop filter for your stereo removes clicks and pops when you play old lps from what could see you can order the circuit kits finished unfinished you can order the parts that you can get through normal store andy belville taken long time but belvilad dunx ocs drexel edu fallen love with beautiful woman
sci.electronics	how you build neural networks mmoss sunysb edu matthew moss writes other words there some sort neural network circuit could build after visit local shack marvin minsky there writes building perceptrons the using motor driven potentiometers vary the weights reported that the circuits worked even tho there were wiring errors can you say robust cadium sulfide cells vary with light cmos ttl gates provide the sigmoid somewhat linear yet somewhat limiter transfer function often used low power schottky gates and earlier gates has about gain leds probably output enough light easily control cds cells even few and paper with dark and light regions controlled pencil and eraser could also control cds resistance the very high input resistance cmos gates may let you charge paper mylar caps serve memory allen sullivan
sci.electronics	flash leds with sound article kepler unh edu dmn kepler unh edu there seeker born every minute writes would better use circuit based the volume the beeps the cassette better for the leds respond tone certain frequency there any easy way either these looking for the simplest circuit possible guess what asking for some sort color organ but not quite let trt explain again look for information about tone decoder chip easy use chip for detecting sound certain frequency you need only one and some other componets for each led you want control the chip can take the voltage levels which the casette gives radio shack archer semiconductor reference guide gives good information how use that chip should simplest way the chip costs something like tomi engdahl hut lowery law then niksula hut jams force breaks needed replacing anyway this text provided without any express implied warranty
sci.electronics	silver solder have seen the existance electronics solder with silver content that seems have good wetting and fatique reatings can anyone tell why not used silver not such expensive metal andy anwar shiekh not feel obliged believe that the international centre for same god who has endowed with sense theoretical physics reason and intellect has intended trieste italy forgo their use shiekh itsictp bitnet galileo galilei
sci.electronics	study audio control engineer the folks out there don know whether the right newsgroup but have question completely wrong here this group could you mail the right name the correct newsgroup friend mine studying electronics the technical university karlsruhe germany since one year wants know whether there are possibilities study audio control engineering the does anybody know how get information about these studies the could you send information like mail adresses the universities quality these studies and possible mail the universities directly get information the universities send information via mail please could you answer via mail because don read this newsgroup regularly thanks advance stephan jaeger this space for rent contact stephan jaeger rheinstr karlsruhe stephan jaeger sub org
sci.electronics	microstepping you can try sgs can achieve current level microstep teere circuit the sgs thomson smart power applicatio manual order code for the manual amsmartpowerst best regards moi siew hong email shmoi hpmalr mal com hewlett packard malaysia bayan lepas free trade zone tel fax penang malaysia
sci.electronics	moisture repellant was lead acid batteries sasrer cinnamon sasrer unx sas com writes services offered was engine cleaning remove all that oil before you sell the car unfortunately did not have high pressure washer would use one several miles from the shop more than one occasion after washing the engine would not start water would have gotten under the distributor would put plastic bag around try and minimize this around the spark plug wires etc and would nearly impossible try and wipe all these areas down with dry rag the usual solution was carry can and when the car wouldn start spray all the likely areas and would then start the very first time this definately gets the car going but highly flammable explosive even the right conditions like vapour sealed inside distributor for and contact points tend arc tiny bit once saw the alternator points cover blow completely off motorcycle after had been restored life with fun watch was honda minibike and the cover only held large rubber grommet wasn really big blast graham more serious aside apparently also conductive best exercise caution with around mains wiring
sci.electronics	development tools for could someone point toward source ftp bbs whatever for development tools for the microprocessor specifically looking for macintosh cross assembler disassembler also there mailing list dedicated discussing the thanks james speth email for pgp compatible public key speth cats ucsc edu
sci.electronics	subliminal message flashing lihan ccwf utexas edu bruce bostwick writes well yes and the image can the screen less than second but mixture images that about the field that was supposed there and the subliminal addition could overlaid for one field producing the same overall effect our sluggish retinae discrete image projected for second this idea supposedly splicing frame buy popcorn upped popcorn sales movie theatre big flap the time congress involved talk making illegal general agreement networks not few years ago some junior person advertising agency invented subliminal projection and one commercial went out tape with single frame messages aired few stations but tech one station previewing the tape noticed flicker and looked the tape frame frame find the defect big flap fcc notified commercial pulled press reports embarassed agency you could probably find the press reports via dialog nexis you wanted now that everybody has vcrs not likely that anybody could get away with this john nagle
sci.electronics	development tools for article ree inndmp darkstar ucsc edu speth cats ucsc edu james gustave writes could someone point toward source ftp bbs whatever for development tools for the microprocessor specifically looking for macintosh cross assembler disassembler also there mailing list dedicated discussing the thanks james speth email for pgp compatible public key speth cats ucsc edu have the same question for any tools for the derivative processor the processor designed western design center thanks oscar oscar mitchell ibm advanced workstations and systems division risc system future systems hardware architecture and design group mail stop zip burnet road austin texas usa phone ibm tieline usa fax ibm vnet oscar ausvm ibm internet oscar oscar austin ibm com usa internet oscar austin ibm com include standard disclaimer not speak for ibm only for myself ibm corporation advanced workstations and systems division risc system future systems hardware architecture and design group usa internet oscar austin ibm com
sci.electronics	pink noise article juts ccc amdahl com dws hdb amdahl com david sharpe writes pink noise and white noise are equal amounts all frequencies this most cases around the range pink white are used adjust for room dynamics and stuff like that there are few out the market that have pink noise built most all from audio control have them know the does wrong wrong completely wrong and little misleading too white noise random noise whose energy density constant for constant bandwidth that wide band will have precisely the same amount energy band khz pink noise random noise whose energy density constant for constant precentage bandwidth thus wide band noise whose bandwidth will contain the same energy wide band khz whose bandwidth wide white noise often used with spectrum analyzers that have constant bandwidths pink noise used with audio type real time analyzers whose bandwidths are centert frequency dependent often described octave octave some such terminology white noise relative pink noise has more energy high frequencies rate equal per octave pink noise relative white noise has more energy low frequencies rate equl again octave dick pierce loudspeaker and software consulting sartelle street pepperell voice and fax
sci.electronics	asynchronous receiver recommendations looking for suitable uart for project what require stand alone device not cpu controlled which will receive baud also nice extra would received data buffer please reply with any info you have thanks chad hubich university regina dept computer science
sci.electronics	self destructing copy protection vhs tape klp doe carleton lun pang writes folks borrowed vhs tape from friend and has warning the begining sayi that attempts copy the tape will result destroying the copy and the original found this unbelievable playing and recording are two differen processes however never seen this tape being sold anywhere don want take the chance even small greetings there are types warnings tapes hologram glued across the seam the halves the tape the message usually reads seal broken you must buy this tape the standard macrovision warning copies this tape will unviewable your case extended message for the average consumer which states that even attempting copy the tape will destroy the original don believe you can sue them for misinformation cases like this take care course utter but the average consumer believes heck mom once returned such tape without watching she was afraid that something might just happen filip buy vowel gieszczykiewicz best mail fmgst pitt edu all ideas are mine but they can yours for only respond now live for major winsurfing programming sca and assorted dreams drive linux has and dos has dos worried
sci.electronics	cable tvi interference article apr rwwa com witr rwwa com robert withrow writes article ainnll rave larc nasa gov watson nimbus larc nasa gov catherine watson writes gave after year letters and phone calls got the impression the fcc was powerless and was the cable company correct the situation isn there some formal action citizen can take that requires the fcc least generate some paperwork robert withrow tel fax net witr rwwa com withrow associates railroad ave swampscott usa for those who are interested the fcc does indeed care about cable leakage particularly into the aviation nav band leakage that causing interference other services part details specific limits acceptable leakage and measurement technique you will clearly document your problem and measurement technique signal level meter with dipole the normal approach remember correct between measurement data and microvolts per meter and fax mail the details john wong cable branch fcc wash and copy your letter the local cable company you will get results fact the cable company will probably start treating you much better when they realize you have figured out how get the fccs attention what important document your case relates the applicable rules however the cable company required least check out every complaint leakage they must file with the commission and maintain premises yearly measurement report that details the results leakage testing but remember call the cable company first and give them chance work correct the problem before contacting the commission the business measuring cable system leakage via the airborne method scottcr wkuvx bitnet aka chris scott telco
sci.electronics	subliminal message flashing article hpfcso com myers hpfcso com bob myers writes was doing research subliminal suggestion for psychology paper and read that one researcher flashed hidden messages the screen ths second that possible might even vector strokewriter display which case the lower limit image time anyone guess and probably phosphor persistence limited back high school worked lab assistant for bunch experimental psychologists bell labs when they were doing visual perception and memory experiments they used vector type displays with millisecond refresh rates common your case sec quite practical and the experimenters were probably sure that was milliseconds not either bob myers myers com steve steve tell tell unc edu estes park apts unc chapel hill computer science carrboro engineering lot like art some circuits are like lyric poems some are like army manuals and some are like the hitchhiker guide the galaxy
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected this has been interesting thread follow and obviously this group wasn intended forum for the discussion piracy has anyone seen any estimates the lost revenue due pirates was wondering piracy more rampant home corporate computing environments would tend think that business environment piracy the major contributor this form lost revenue many companies will purchase few copies software package and then employees will internally distribute them they owned site license what you guys think
sci.electronics	blue led article yqde ecf toronto edu gladman ecf toronto edu gladman aviv writes that why you don find blue leds for that matter some other colour leds that not say that blue leds can found seen blue leds sold but they were just your typical visible light led blue plastic covering the blue leds sold down the street are milky white plastic and fyi putting filter typical visible light led presumably meaning non blue one won produce blue light filter can only block light can generate wavelengths that aren there start with jamie hanrahan kernel mode systems san diego internet jeh cmkrnl com uucp uunet cmkrnl jeh cis
sci.electronics	self destructing copy protection vhs tape schuch phx mcd mot com john schuch writes have always thought that wanted send the police tape with ransom demand send cnn video tape see they wanted buy would place small magnet near the take spool the tape would erased was played who would think check that exceptionally cool idea would work how strong field needed anyone pat fegmania wustl edu revely nancy sinatra christmas carols kind stereo hell chris buery abc news
sci.electronics	bit converter article apr oucsace ohiou edu mcorbin oucsace ohiou edu max corbin writes once upon time long long ago this news group someone posted schematic for bit converter well just found use for the little monster anyone out there still got this text file had flip flop resistor and cap and comparator amp think would extremely thankful anyone who could mail the schematic post the news group hmmm how about piece copper wire input range standard ttl output instantaneous conversion time for the humor impaired mark haun internet haunma wwc edu sittner hall amateur radio college place
sci.electronics	moisture repellant was lead acid batteries article apr lugb latrobe edu matgbb lure latrobe edu byrnes graham writes sasrer cinnamon sasrer unx sas com writes services offered was engine cleaning remove all that oil before you sell the car unfortunately did not have high pressure this definately gets the car going but highly flammable explosive even the right conditions like vapour sealed inside distributor for and contact points tend arc tiny bit once saw the alternator points cover blow completely off motorcycle after had been restored life with fun watch was honda minibike and the cover only held large rubber grommet wasn really big blast graham more serious aside apparently also conductive best exercise caution with around mains wiring some years ago almost became victim this squirted fair amount old model teletype which was acting then turned the eruption when the motor starting contacts broke was mighty spectacular almost got eyebrows singed the plastic old ones had safety glass cover over the platen etc flew across the room and several people the room almost had heart attacks beware the explosive properties vapor john schmidt internet schmidt auvax adelphi edu technical director wbau phone days adelphi university evenings garden city new york fax
sci.electronics	subliminal message flashing article naglec dse netcom com nagle netcom com john nagle writes lihan ccwf utexas edu bruce bostwick writes well yes and the image can the screen less than second but mixture images that about the field that was supposed there and the subliminal addition could overlaid for one field producing the same overall effect our sluggish retinae discrete image projected for second this idea supposedly splicing frame buy popcorn upped popcorn sales movie theatre big flap the time congress involved talk making illegal general agreement networks not more than talk from the fcc rules subliminal perception see public notice fcc dated january fcc january see fcc information bulletin subliminal projection sic least rules service copy the rules dated november since don have either old copies the federal register the information bulletin around can tell you what you can radio but seem remember this being unnecisarily hot subject the late practically speaking dont have too much trouble seeing the one frame edits mtv promos badly scratched torn single frames films and such but maby that just because the contrast between the single frame and the surrounding material was significant never believed the one frame type being real the other hand the coca cola brand insert desired name here beer cans conveniently placed the brand name visible the movie you just watched that another story and your station network was paid the beer company for the privilege doing that there has promotional consideration paid similar message included with the program but the station bought the movie already edited that way from the film company and didn get any the payment for brand visibility that the film company got then they don have run the message few years ago some junior person advertising agency invented subliminal projection and one commercial went out tape with single frame messages aired few stations but tech one station previewing the tape noticed flicker and looked the tape frame frame find the defect big flap fcc notified commercial pulled press reports embarassed agency you could probably find the press reports via dialog nexis you wanted now that everybody has vcrs not likely that anybody could get away with this john nagle john schmidt internet schmidt auvax adelphi edu technical director wbau phone days adelphi university evenings garden city new york fax
sci.electronics	programmer having vainly looked for devices capable dealing the nec dsp chip which dont require taking out mortgage decided roll own not difficult task for given that all the timing relationships are set out the databook one thing bothers that the accursed volt vpp pulse sure little buck step converter can achieve this what otherwise all volt widget but know latterday eproms dont need nearly this pulse length has anyone come with more efficient programming algorithm which failsafe cheers mike
sci.electronics	power signal surges home foz skybridge scl cwru edu david lesher writes why all postings from bnr seem have bogus addresses both gstovall crchh nosubdomain nodomain and gstovall bnr com bounce this makes rather difficult reply they through uunet this often the problem uunet often has problems with return paths deleted and most importantly amount transmitted short transmitter the size small house likely cause the equipment failures you describe you are looking two different problems yep bill
sci.electronics	descrambling channels live british columbia canada the cable company use called rogers cable does anyone know their scrambling techniques and ways getting around them any suggestions what they might use sean oliver internet address mindlink mindlink bbs
sci.electronics	pink noise article juts ccc amdahl com dws hdb amdahl com david sharpe writes pink noise and white noise are equal amounts all frequencies this most cases around the range pink white are used adjust for room dynamics and stuff like that there are few out the market that have pink noise built most all from audio control have them know the does with regards what you wrote how does one adjust for room dynamics and stuff like that asked professor that question just last week and didn really know himself since pink noise believed due surface states say the surface the silicon where there lack covalent bond that act traps nearby elecrons and since this happens low frequencies because high frequencies they aren able trap electrons how you compensate for that seems that you wouldn able compensate for pink noise have seen the pink noise feature however many eqs and was wondering how they are suppose compensate for noise when pink noise not due man made noise like power lines crosstalks coupling etc you have any information about this would appreciated hope this didn sound too drawn out thanx david shorty helios nevada edu
sci.electronics	development tools for article xol austin ibm com oscar oscar austin ibm com oscar mitchell writes request for wdc mac cross development stuff apple themselves sells cross developer for the macintosh called mpw iigs intended for use with the apple iigs computer which uses the oscar mitchell ian schmidt two meg software irsman iastate edu aol com will choose path that author audiozap modzap and more clear will choose free will author soundconvert and desktracker peart coder and musician for the irc
sci.electronics	removing battery corrosion there readily available solvent that does good job removing the corrosion encrustation that collects the battery terminals usually the cathode when using alkaline batteries more accurately when not using them for long time
sci.electronics	how get rid flyback whine recently took apart color sony clean the volume pushbuttons and when put the beast back together the flyback whine got much louder this easy fix which part resonating have heard rumors spray that will fix the noise this simple thing for repairman fix thanks scott
sci.electronics	atari processors article sunb ocs edu ifarqhar laurel ocs edu ian farquhar writes article apr das harvard edu squish endor uucp shishin yamada writes the atari used cpu just like their entire bit line computers well the game machine wrong has sorry ian haven toyed with several years haven seen the insides quite few years just saw the post lagging for quite few days and thought toss assume the was functionally similar the was also made mos technologies really more versed the based atari computers the came later the had some extra asic chips that were basically modified graphics chips and pia for the joysticks had one custome chip not asic the sense that word now understood the tia sometimes known the although most other manufacturers list that the cia complex interface adapter tia stands for television interface adapter and handles sound paddles and the minimal video hardware the possessed the atari computers the cia chip you refer sounds awful lot like the ctia color television interface adapter chip used the early models later atari upgraded this the gtia graphics other colorful literature stated that the gtia might have stood for george the developer the chip there was also standard ram timer riot plus voltage regulator and memory serves timer that all later model might have incorporated many the chips into one asci the weight the machines and part count decreased lot over the years not according the servicing documentation have here the did not change intenally very much all funny had old and new model the old one was significantly heavier additionally think the used and rom for their games roms were mapped into the upper the address space and games were fine but later and games needed bank switching atari and others made much these huge cartridges have idea how much ram had work with but would hazard guess ram sorry way out line here first microcontroller built was based chipset with bytes onboard that was not easy work with addtion small board eprom wrong had bytes ram from the riot this was multiply mapped into both page pseudo registers and page stack and also throughout the bottom memory tia registers also sat this address space bytes ram was somewhat limiting some later cartridges also carried ram themselves which was interesting atari had provided write line the cart this was managed mapping the reads from ram into one address range and the writes into another but all the time this scheme ate into the very scarce rom address space ian
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected article dvh fan ucdavis edu othello ucdavis edu victoria milliron writes from othello ucdavis edu victoria milliron subject how the disks copy protected date sat apr gmt hmmm what the problem with parallel port security keys haven used anything that had hardware key copy protection schemes don know what the drawbacks are know the companies that make them claim they uncrackable but seen cracks autodesk studio floating around don have one don ask and had heard that had parralel port keys you put another computer the port instead the key you can hack them reading what happens been told never seen this done but think possible you need some hardware knowledge and some software read the port vamilliron othello ucd edu apologies rambled but inhibits communication skills greatly guido klemans internet rcstage urc tue valid until may listen very carefully will say this only once michelle the resitance
sci.electronics	power signal surges home dplatt ntg com dave platt writes what kind power must putting out cause the effects the affected equipment about feet from the road might couple hundred watts from the sound kicking sound out the and stereo speakers direct rectification requires mighty strong carrier heard linears powerful that triggering them while the car was idling would stall the engine pulling down the battery voltage would take lot more than that sounds like the radio equipment actually not shut completely off but just goes standby situation suspect that the stories are just that stories the voltage can only sucked down far instantaneously when you try jumpstart someones car when your vehicle idle does your car stall the other car just does not crank well now the engine might stall because the idle was too low start with when the extra current drawn the idle speed will drop the alternator loads down the engine compensate for the increased amperage requirement resolution this problem matter for the power company the fcc both ultimately likely your problem resolve afraid the fcc understaffed that they don pay much attention citizen complains about rfi heard they just send you pamphlet describing how you can apply corrective measures talking the power company might help they might able install filtering devices your service panel recommend type which you could have installed licensed electrician transmitter not going affecting house power surges are occurring there due another cause not transmitter unfortunately there fair chance that enough signal being picked your house wiring that simple service panel filter won suffice you may need install heavy duty rfi filters the power connections your affected equipment probably not that much problem often toroid coils the power leads will solve that part the interference problem will not solve internal equipment deficiencies the problem occurs regularly you may need stake out the street question and watch for trucks cars with big antennae driving the time interference occurs you can identify the vehicle which transmitting you may able contact its owner and complain probably not the transmitter that fault the person amateur then she will probably willing help you explain that the person causing interference bill
sci.electronics	power signal surges home drand spinner osf org douglas rand writes hams can legally run watts very unlikely however that ham would running that kind power from car ham rigs not possible either you need about amp alternator for just the amplifier can just see you need slow down downgrade you hit the push talk button well amps anyway transmissions are generally for short interval the battery would supply the rest course you transmitted too much you would run the battery down really would not that much brake even efficiency watts would only consume horsepower bill
sci.electronics	how universal are phones these days wondering can tote american touch tone phone around with sweden and germany powered and can buy special adapter for that europe the question the general electronics work the same can buy different wall plug and refit sure have but would that the trick thanks hugo
sci.electronics	power signal surges home brian ucsd edu brian kantor writes while possible that ham radio transmitter that you hearing isn likely every bit signal that doesn out the antenna wasted far ham concerned and most hams are the radiated signal that would cause the problem technically competent ensure that they don waste any signal they can possibly avoid get their ham license they had pass government exam that tests them that point among others however you could hearing radio transmitter for sure there are lots other services where the operators aren required technically competent citizens band for example there nothing the amateur radio tests that requires technical competence all simple matter memorize all the questions and answers however that said most hams that know spend quite bit time gaining some technical skill listen the interference you hear voices clearly almost certainly isn ham radio and might well you can record don count that bit you could take the tape over local ham operator house and ask him for his opinion what you hearing most communities you cannot that legally however you can ask ham over listen the interference occurs specific time each day then would possible such scheduling nothing else you could invite the ham over transmit from your driveway see interferes does then you probably need have your equipment worked make immune interference have ham radio interference committee whose members are most willing help you resolve interference complaints look the phone book ask the local ham radio store call the fcc for contact info the fcc may may not have such information they have enough without getting calls for such information nothing else call your city offices police department general business number they should have the name local ham contact ham more than likely willing help get rid the problem after all would his signal wasting isn the interference committee the fcc may able suggest solutions see above your concept wasted signal erroneous his rig transmitting properly then the chance interference with the exception harmonic television interference the greatest since putting out the strongest signal unfortunately the case that transmitting station that operating perfectly legally could possibly cause intereference piece consumer audio equipment just because the manufacturer the consumer equipment cut corners one little section the device that wouldn affect one person thousand but which bites you often that can remedied for just few pennies knowledgeable person perhaps even the person operating the transmitter you hearing unfortunately most consumer equipment succeptable all poorly designed btw hams are allowed amplifiers isn illegal ham amplifier doesn compute does but not for mobile radio there are very few mobile rigs that could power watt amplifier bill
sci.electronics	laser bubblejet just thought would add deskjet thread got first one college about years ago been happy user the deskwriter for macintosh for past years got one just few months after their release and got software revision now rev our family sister and father have each purchased their own after seeing mine for one year unscathed their stuck their trusty imagewriter the original has gone for years moderate personal use would say that has gone through least sheets and around one small ink cartridge every months brother might take this now probably gonna give him and looking upgrade color the chief advantages disadvantages found over the years are advantages quick ppm quiet roomate can sleep while printing appletalk networkable unfortunately the original wasn look out you buy used rewired our home with phonenet appletalk connectors and while home can all use dad one and cheap now run btw you can upgrade older color for appletalk dunno still does the upgrades but received many offers just didn ned however also crisp laser quality output wonder used really impress those imagewriter dot matrix people much that had charge per sheet stop college dorm neighbors from bothering all hours the night disadvantages ink used hard find and wasn cheap and wasn originally water proof while has done wonders with the ink dunno still toxic still subjet smearing and running you run around the damp boston rain and get your bookbag completely soaked ink now runs about for small carts get mine from elek tek chicago think they now down the ink carts used say they dated for only months but don think they say anymore stick month supply about carts use cheap hammerhill laser print paper after fooling for long time laser xerox paper also good smearing doesn happen unless you have brand new ink cart and you grab the paper and smudge all over soon comes out the machine other disadvantages are postscript this can advantage speed usually ways around this are ghostscript freedom press software solutions bet probably has prototype inkjet but they won release for fear hurting sales the end the primary advantages laser are true postscript unless you for cheap lasers and fused toner smearing even when soaking water lasers are slightly sharper but the only instance where needed precise layouts was printed circuit board transparencies for photoetching found textronix color phaser postscript thermal wax transfer work the best make pcb negatives directly onto transparency well hope babbling has helped squish endor harvard edu
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected article rcstage urc tue rcstage urc tue guido klemans writes stuff about hardware keys you put another computer the port instead the key you can hack them reading what happens been told never seen this done but think possible you need some hardware knowledge and some software read the port true which why many the newer keys ship out maybe bits have the key encrypt them and return them the making bunch these bits part your program code good way make sure things won run without the key anyway then this scheme least defeats your approach little costly though personally don believe copy protection and agree with the thought that the mass inconvenience that causes all legal users far outweighs the gains from what few pirates won able copy the program joel kolstad
sci.electronics	help with phone wire which ones are tip ring article apr husc harvard edu mlevin husc harvard edu michael levin writes just bought little gizmo that supposed installed series with the tip ring lines the phone wire which ones are those suppose holding regular phone wire such that the little plastic tooth the little plastic square thing with the naked lead ends that you plug into the phone facing down and away from which the wires that see the tip and which the ring please reply mlevin husc harvard edu mike levin mike ring the red wire tip the green wire most standard phone lines they two constitute the two wires most often used for voice telephone the two live lines they are the two innermost connectors phone jack another way telling that you measure voltage from red green ring tip tip green being ground potential the voltmeter should read volts the hook ring position sure and not volts doesn hurt phone too much they reversed just bad one happens somehow get grounded earth ground elsewhere additionally when off hook the voltage drops about volts think supposed correspond current loop and lastly when ringing the two wires develop potential about across them where you get the electromechanical old fashioned bell ringer from hope that clears things squish endor harvard edu
sci.electronics	blinking leds article kepler unh edu dmn kepler unh edu there seeker born every minute writes where can buy blinking leds besides radio shack does anyone sell blinking leds with variable flash rate voltage guess what hertz pulse rate are they adjustable set like blinking leds that can set for approx something like that interested what out there for flash rates like the idea leds with flasher circuits already them hate soldering ics general guess don have hell lot patience thanks dana you want slow led flash rates adjustable switches digitally controlled switch suggest looking oscillator chip they cost radio shack much cheaper quantity quality places and you will able find good info about simple circuits oscialltor notebook think forest mims has one radio shack you have toy with resistor capacitor values you can use your head with little math get the right frequencies any engineer worth his salt can make osciallator the book and left you see hate doing ascii circuit graphics the can accurately from few about khz think about the tape recorder gizmo you could alter stereo tape deck use one channel data line for flashing led and one audio line for voice music this would eliminate lot noise the data line probably most easily done some kind pll bandpass filter using just amp the chip good pll and not hard work with however you nothing about how pll works suggest you don try this amp information can also found the forest mims radio shack info booklets and the popular amp snap work with setting frequency and bandpass filter values are not easy would suggest the method firstmost have idea what this going into really generalizing for manufacturing techniques you only goofing with suggest you breadboard the thing need solder wire wrap would the next more permanent step and lastly soldering pcb making hope that clears things squish endor harvard edu
sci.electronics	what with old simms article qkf hinn rave larc nasa gov kludge grissom larc nasa gov scott dorsey writes article jch frc ulowell ulowell edu wex ulowell edu writes article apr csx cciw csx cciw stewart beal writes was wondering people had any good uses for old simms have bunch them for the apple mac and know lots other people have tried sell them but have gotten interest well you willing spend little money you could buy one those ide caching controllers assuming you have ide course and put the simms them hardware cache srikanth
sci.electronics	lead acid batteries part article apr cronkite ocis temple edu camter astro ocis temple edu carter ames writes thought the first thread was hilarious here goes another post some more background information what has happened poor batteries one year left the batteries the garage the garage unheated they were left their places that they needed one the riding lawnmower what lux and one each motorcycle the battery the riding lawnmower was about years old and one the cycle batteries was new and one was around years old upon spring time discovered that all the batteries were dead and needed recharged they all worked properly except for the older ones and they had replaced about halfway through the summer they had originally been stored the garage and think remember dad charging them spring last year decided bring them the basement which has two parts one dirt and brick and the other concrete brought all three and discovered the spring about days ago that not only were the batteries dead but when put the charger them the charger said hmmmmmmmm and the amp meter read around other words was pinned the internal circut tripped and went the other batteries they were the same realizing that still had gigantic sailboat batteries also lead acid decided put the charger them these had been sitting for around and half years the brick and dirt part and noticed that they only needed small charge around hours trickle tested them using them the local gas station for giving jump starts and they worked fine for around this leads believe one several things bought really tty batteries last year sorta true the concrete has something with the discharge the batteries there was enough moisture short out the terminals the room where the concrete the dirt room was able absorb the moisture the air better than concrete btw can almost waterski the dirt room any other ideas could the aliens anything possible the lead acid secondary cell releases energy electricity with the following chemical reaction pbo pbso lead and lead oxide and sulfuric acid produce lead sulfate and water the standard heats formation the various compounds are heat formation compound kcal mole pbo pbso the heat reaction therefore kcal per mole pbso produced note that lead sulfate not very soluble grams per grams water and will thus precipitate out solution where the reaction occurring the cathode positive terminal the battery almost sure the positive terminal where the precipitate forms but may wrong well don have corroded battery corrobate and don feel like thinking through right now what important notice here that the reaction you knew would exothermic energy discharging moisture with dissolved electrolytes acid rain condenses the battery conductive path between the terminals may form this will discharge the battery the chemical reaction proceeds the reaction reversible electricity from alternator battery charger put back into the battery lead acid batteries must change chemical composition discharge each cell has all the reactants necessary for the reaction the non reacting posts terminals the lead acid battery are there remove add electric energy during discharge charge because the reaction exothermic has tendency happen though quite slowly under normal circumstances while keeping the battery dry good idea not total solution understand why lead acid batteries indeed discharge faster when stored concrete opposed wood earth dirt one should recall lechatelier principle which can paraphrased anything subjected some stress will act move more comfortable position here are the thermal conductivities some selected materials thermal conductivity material temperature btu diatomaceous earth natural across strata diatomaceous natural parallel strata diatomaceous earth powder density concrete cinder stone dry pine across grain parallel grain oak across grain maple across grain note that the thermal conductivity for dirt diatomaceous earth goes down with temperature also about and the values for earth powder are the same order magnitude natural earth the thermal conductivity concrete around factor greater than that dirt and times greater than wood these differences thermal conductivity that cause the battery concrete discharge faster than that dirt wood any instant the discharge reaction occurring energy being released either electricity heat thermal conductivity air about btu during storage except for the trickle that passes through any condensate the battery this energy mostly released heat the higher conductivity surface will remove the heat proportionately faster than the lower conductivity surface thus you perfectly insulated dry battery all but the bottom surface any given battery temperature above the storage surface temperature the battery concrete surface will discharging about times faster than that dirt this where lechatelier principle comes into play removing energy from the exothermic reaction will drive the reaction further completion the reaction normally occurs room temperature keeping the battery that temperature requires the removal any heat produced concrete surface better heat sink than dirt wood surface store battery the corner poured concrete basement and you have surfaces removing energy which pulls the reaction along also water evaporates from the battery that elevates the ratio sulfuric acid water this will tend drive the discharge reaction jeff white jhwhit ulkyvx louisville edu how get the ketchup out pocket protector french fries
sci.electronics	how universal are phones these days article hinnsr darkstar ucsc edu hugo cats ucsc edu hugo calendar writes wondering can tote american touch tone phone around with sweden and germany powered and can buy special adapter for that europe the question the general electronics work the same can buy different wall plug and refit sure have but would that the trick two things watch for germany and think the same holds for sweden only some the connections can handle tone dialing make sure the phone can set pulse dialing sweden the the first digit and all other digits are pushed down one position this makes dialing and the process converting numbers interesting task otherwise technically problem connect foreign phone either the german swedish phone system otoh neither you nor would ever try that course illegal wolfgang diestelkamp berlin wolfgang first gmd
sci.electronics	rpm floopy drives update article wiee uky edu msunde mik uky edu writes hopefully this should sort all out not bad for quid normally pardon ignorance foreign currency and exchange rates but what quid how does relate the british pound whatever called and what that american dollars sorry should have used correct terminology quid knicker approx dollars the terry pratchett book good omens contains adequate explanation the rather strange money system past and present for americans tibetans and other alien species michael brown csulo csv warwick mjb dcs warwick lost interest bad lost apathy
sci.electronics	how universal are phones these days article apr sam berlin berlin wolfgang diestelkamp writes article hinnsr darkstar ucsc edu hugo cats ucsc edu hugo calendar writes wondering can tote american touch tone phone around with sweden and germany powered and can buy special adapter for that europe the question the general electronics work the same can buy different wall plug and refit sure have but would that the trick two things watch for germany and think the same holds for sweden only some the connections can handle tone dialing make sure the phone can set pulse dialing most not virtually all swedish exchanges can handle tone dialling many older electromechanical exchanges have been modified accept tone dialling lars henrik eriksson internet lhe sics swedish institute computer science phone intn box telefon nat kista sweden fax
sci.electronics	pals gals does anyone know how can get detailed information about pals and gals please reply via mail thanks lot advance red paola dei unipd red maya dei unipd
sci.electronics	how universal are phones these days berlin wolfgang diestelkamp writes article hinnsr darkstar ucsc edu hugo cats ucsc edu hugo calendar writes wondering can tote american touch tone phone around with sweden and germany powered and can buy special adapter for that europe the question the general electronics work the same can buy different wall plug and refit sure have but would that the trick two things watch for germany and think the same holds for sweden only some the connections can handle tone dialing make sure the phone can set pulse dialing sweden the the first digit and all other digits are pushed down one position this makes dialing and the process converting numbers interesting task this just basicly right the connections that cannot handle touchtone dialing very few would estimate couple percents and you are bigger town there none that cannot handle tone dialing and regarding our swedish dialing system rather screwd system that does just apply pulsdialing not touchtone btw norway even more interesting they got both system you need different phones depending where the country you live joakim gunnarsson tde abacus hgs
sci.electronics	communications link our problem the following have design link for distance using standard waves square pulses the modulating waves and the carrier wave sinusoidal the link has bidirectional would appreciate any advice the type modulating techniques antennas that should use please internet email gjf witsvma wits nando bww witsvma wits warren blumenow underdog wits warren thank you very much advance
sci.electronics	blue led gladman aviv said blue led all order emit blue light semiconductor must have band gap energy within the region electron volts according physical electronics prof you can get led with that band gap that why you don find blue leds for that matter some other colour leds that not say that blue leds can found seen blue leds sold but they were just your typical visible light led blue plastic covering they didn emit very much light this not true they have and make blue led they are about digikey wavelength the way stephen cyberman toz buffalo mangled sun think will enough bill gates blue wave qwk
sci.electronics	how universal are phones these days article rgka corax udac tde hgs joakim gunnarsson writes two things watch for germany and think the same holds for sweden only some the connections can handle tone dialing make sure the phone can set pulse dialing sweden the the first digit and all other digits are pushed down one position this makes dialing and the process converting numbers interesting task think all connections norway can handle touchtone dialing not touchtone btw norway even more interesting they got both system you need different phones depending where the country you live the oslo region has one system the rest the country another system you need different phones depending where the country you live almost right for pulsdialing some phones have little switch inside you are able use them all over norway you can just renumber the numbers your phone anders rnestad division computer science and telematics norwegian inst technology trondheim norway email abjoern idt unit internet prmd uninett unit idt abjoern
sci.electronics	caltech puff ftp tools there does anyone know whether the puff design package available via ftp from any site understand the public domain please correct wrong this one any other design tools out there that can recommended especially microstrip filter tools lehane lehane kellett kmh siemens nixdorf information systems bracknell lehane sni phone fax compuserve standard disclaimers apply warranty void opened
sci.electronics	how drive array leds ptorre hardy washington edu phil torre writes have project mind that requires array leds that can addressed individually microprocessor say there lsi that designed drive led array including ram hold the array state failing that some way multiplexing the display don have latch bit for each led using discrete latch want avoid having huge board covered with possible thanks advance maxim makes chip that does exactly what you want the max drives segment led displays with full decode drives discrete led with wire serial interface the chips can also cascaded allow very large arrays working sign display using this part have post the contact info for maxim later home there was series articles this chip the last couple circuit cellar ink mike harpe michael harpe programmer analyst information technology ormsby bldg mike hermes louisville edu university louisville louisville not man remorseless eating machine the simpsons
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected comments about who needs backup copies and you deleted toss cents worth begun think that distribution disks are made some the least reliable floppy disk stocks available been especially plagued borland distribution disks lucky can install from them many times before they crap out definitely matter course always make copies our installations with paul marxhausen university nebraska lincoln grace happens
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected kuo sheng kasey chang kschang sfsuvax sfsu edu wrote article apr miavx acs muohio edu sjmadsen nextsrv cas muohio edu steve madsen writes this not good idea upgraded motherboard last fall would have been quite pissed any software that would have forced reinstall simply because changed motherboards opinion understandable assume you have tape drive not all have about floppies around for backup you know actually don have tape drive the event total hard disk failure reinstall the apps from originals and restore the data from the backups keep that with upwards stuff hard disk there way going try and back all without tape drive would nice have one though ram something you add all the time more like bios manufacturer and processor type etc data cannot used esp with these new flash rom bios machines with updates diskette maybe maybe not today doesn happen often would hope but then bios buggy and the user gets upgrade the bios information going change least the date anyway tagging the bios manufacturer still going falsely tag those users who upgrade the motherboard this type upgrade doesn require hard disk backup restore the other hand make this less intrusive could disguised please insert original disk need file yyyyyy for update would perfectly reasonable sort long wasn done too terribly often otherwise think would get annoying and the user would looking for other software this silly much easier loan disks friend and let them install than backup your copy already disk and then give them that your scheme isn going stop anyone course easier are you saying then the originals should allow only one install what your point course not something gets corrupted and app needs reinstalled the worst thing want that software telling this software has already been registered blank and against the law install other machines something similar access for windows does this and only requires click away pretty non intrusive but gets the point across what said was the program should have certain restriction such the restrict one machine until the program registered with the manufacturer the manufacturer will then supply the then proven legitimate user with patch that will disable the restriction and proudly proclaim the legal copy with the registered xxx screen this great idea like the key system that some shareware products use the only problem that will difficult for big software companies implement this without getting very cost ineffective for them and more burden than benefit the users steve madsen sjmadsen nextsrv cas muohio edu ask about linux the free unix
sci.electronics	clear lcd led sheets interested finding supplier for array leds material which transparent when nothing lit not quite sure what lcd screens are like away from the laptop but would guess they are not too clear ideal item would led array for which each led about square yes very course this for distance viewing but window any pointers suggestions would much appreciated mark battisti mbattist magnus acs ohio state edu summit street columbus ohio
sci.electronics	digital scaling being the visualization stage circuit design right now was wondering what the best way scale voltage using bit digital word thinking using the common method sending the word through adc and then comparing with the voltage converted sawtooth wave get duty cycle however leary this method because requires lot parts and more importantly creates lot interference from the switching the entire line realize that correct filtering could cancel out most this interference but that would require more parts and boost the price further someone mentioned that they had seen which input bits data and directly scaled the voltage coming all chip unfortunately couldn remember the chip number the manufacturer anyone else has heard this chip please mail building this project dimmer box for light controller circuit and important that the cost each box remains very low because one dimmer required for each light that the user wishes control well each channel least therefor each box costs doubt that end user will want dish out for sixteen channels this something have noticed about today dimmer boxes they are expensive anyway any help which someone could offer either method easily doing this info about the chip which will for always the preferred method will greatly appreciated michael carr carr onu edu
sci.electronics	communications link article blumenow underdog wits blumenow underdog wits warren blumenow writes have design link for distance using standard waves square pulses the modulating waves and the carrier wave sinusoidal the link has bidirectional would appreciate any advice the type modulating techniques antennas that should use what frequency your carrier have you considered using two tones one for and another for how high your data rate can you use more than one carrier freq have you considered hiring data transmission consultant just curious galen watts
sci.electronics	power signal surges home article apr hpcvaac com billn hpcvaac com bill nelson writes brian ucsd edu brian kantor writes listen the interference you hear voices clearly almost certainly isn ham radio and might well you can record bit you could take the tape over local ham operator house and ask him for his opinion what you hearing most communities you cannot that legally why can record legally may not admissable court but recording for personal use legal wants play for his ham friend that legal too long doesn charge admission unfortunately most consumer equipment succeptable all poorly designed here here btw hams are allowed amplifiers isn illegal ham amplifier doesn compute does but not for mobile radio there are very few mobile rigs that could power watt amplifier bill doesn actually have watts feet heard radio transmissions from concert security over guitar amps with guitar plugged and security uses radios transmitting watts into rubber duck antenna which acts more like dummy load than antenna hey bill where were you three weeks ago when all this stuff was posted and dealt with galen watts
sci.electronics	what type this greets have need help identifying pin with the following label any help would greatly appreciated identifying this chip kevin kevin jones kpjone ulkyvx louisville edu lab supervisor kpjone ulkyvx louisville edu computing and telecommunications phone university louisville fax the only good racist dead racist
sci.electronics	help looking for oscilloscope source all looking for new oscilloscope looks like goldstar can find one cheap enough and would like suggestions low priced source for them currently btw fry electronics los angeles has the for the best price seen overall for now they carry the for but need the because the mhz thanks all joseph chiu josephc cco caltech edu you gotta get this thing msc caltech pasadena happiness suspending wings make appointment calendar entry and send fax and resuming the game
sci.electronics	clear lcd led sheets mbattist magnus acs ohio state edu mark battisti writes interested finding supplier for array leds material which transparent when nothing lit not quite sure what lcd screens are like away from the laptop but would guess they are not too clear ideal item would led array for which each led about square yes very course this for distance viewing but window any pointers suggestions would much appreciated what pray tell are you putting together and what about costs and does have transparent totally transparent just transparent enough allow light from the other side shine through joseph chiu josephc cco caltech edu you gotta get this thing msc caltech pasadena happiness suspending wings make appointment calendar entry and send fax and resuming the game
sci.electronics	silver solder andy shiekh shiekh ictp trieste wrote have seen the existance electronics solder with silver content that seems have good wetting and fatique reatings can anyone tell why not used silver not such expensive metal andy for the most part silver solder not used for general soldering tasks due the mechanism dendritic growth silver solder when exposed high humidity and placed electric field will actually grow dendrites which are conductive and will adventually electrically short across closely spaced nodes which are creating the field for this reason silver allowed only hermetically sealed assemblies fortunatly tin lead solder quite stable and will not grow dendrites fast silver solder therefore used extensively jerry long long spk com disclaimer opinions are own and not reflect those employer
sci.electronics	laser bubblejet there cartridge capping upgrade for older deskjet printers available from hewlett packard older original deskjet and possibly deskjet units may have black plastic slide with rubber capping components the cartrige parking area the right side viewed from front the printer newer printers have gray white plastic slide the black plastic slide can allow your cartridge dry out there was and may still information packaged with ink cartridges explaining the situation placed coupon for free upgrade kit modernize old deskjets the new capping mechanism did this printer and did indeed find that the cartidges now last longer don have the information handy suggest contacting your nearest service center for information obtaining the kit has upgrade kits that consist electronics and mechanical components that vary depending the starting level printer and the level which you wish upgrade upgraded original desket dekjet the kit was fairly expensive you are likely better off selling your old printer and purchasing new deskjet now that prices have declined much upgrading original deskjet requires fair amount skill but soldering upgrading deskjet plus involves swapping the processor card and changing few minor parts contact your service center for further information the pcl language used deskjets considerably different from the pcl used laser printers especially the newer laser printers the biggest problem dumb laser drivers that send raster end command after each scan line this makes material difference for lasers but causes the deskjet print the accumulated raster you might guess the result hideously slow printing the new dos wordperfect print deskjet drivers are still guilty this particular behavior from the way wordperfect works this would not easy change windows wordperfect works efficiently unless you use the dos drivers instead windows the pcl dialect used the laserjet iiip allows compression that permits full page dpi image rendered with only one megabyte memory uncompressed image could large about kbytes but the printer needs about memory for its internal house keeping laserjet models support banded printing that allows incrmental download the image with compression limited memory situations deskjet downloadable fonts are not compatible with laserjet fonts single page from laserjet only requires about seconds this faster than any but the most trivial printing from deskjet printer the presumption course being that the laser printer has completed its warm cyle until ink chemistry changed wicking resulting image deterioration unavoidable won use the word impossible but matching laser quality output from deskjet printer unlikely chosing appropriate paper type helps but does not eliminate the problem laser printers are more wastful energy and consumable components does accept return spent toner cartridges mitigating the material waste problem degree energy waste could use more work warm times have decreased allowing stand current consumption significantly reduced the laserjet kyocera produces laser print engine that employs amorphous silicon imaging drum with replacable toner system the image drum good for approximately copies very nice print engine wish used the kyocera engine kyocera also has neat modular paper source and stacker system the recommended duty cycle for deskjet significantly lower than any laser printers the pick pressure rollers are subject wear and case confirm eventually wear out the usual symptom that the printer becomes reluctant feed paper the paper feed integrated transport mechanism that single part from service replacement cost for the transport almost the feed rollers are not separately replacable though would not difficult job for competent technician have disassembled and reassembled the transport own printer depends upon the application which printer best for you you only print pages day and are satisfied with the appearance output the deskjet very good choice noted the deskjet choice for personal use bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown usa phone wtm uhura neoucom edu wed
sci.electronics	blue led baden bari baden inqmind bison wrote what the story here all stuck with the regular green red and off yellow orange led what gives anybody have scoop fairly low priced blue led your looking for leds the range forget blue leds just recently became available and the materials they are made are expensive maybe the future they will become less expensive and brighter but for now going cost you and the output will limited they ever get efficient and cost effective red and green leds you probably going see whole new family color displays charlie brett collins
sci.electronics	multiple inputs for article uicvm uic edu uicvm uic edu writes can anyone offer suggestion problem having have several boards whose sole purpose decode dtmf tones and send the resultant ascii these boards run the serial interface need run the boards somwehat simultaneously need able them the problem how hook serial devices one inexpensivley that all can send data simulataneously close any help would greatly appreciated abhin singla you can modify the design the dtmf decoder the ideal comunications would over multi drop system like boards are available for probably cheaper than bunch channels and cheaper build onto your satellite modules using only single supply pin dip driver chip software the end would similarly complex for either opinion the higher data rates possible with would permit quasi simultaneous data transmission hope this helps rod nussbaumer programmer technologist bitnet bomr triumfer triumf university british columbia internet bomr erich triumf vancouver canada phone ext
sci.electronics	how universal are phones these days don know much about phones germany but this what know bought phone the for mother who lives bratislava slovakia and works just fine the problem they don have wall jacks like here there wire without any jack the end sticking out the wall you need connect the wires not sure they have wall jacks western europe they may hope this helps dagmar kniha carson washington edu
sci.electronics	radar laser detectors what are people opinions about laser detectors escort makes laser detector the passport and claims works fine however talked some people who have said that will only work you are lucky the cop happens point his laser car front you and the laser beam happens reflect back your detector otherwise won work regular radar course travels all directions hence more detectable any comments escort has deal till the end april think where you buy their wideband passport and laser detectors you save off buying them separately this case the addition the laser detector over the passport only passport normally costs eddie gornish university illinois center for supercomputing research development gornish csrd uiuc edu
sci.electronics	how you build neural networks article rbs insti physics sunysb edu mmoss sunysb edu matthew moss writes subject says all though should specify that looking for solutions that don require purchasing specific chips etc first you find congenial member the opposite sex thomas clarke institute for simulation and training university central research parkway suite orlando fax clarke acme ucf edu couldn resist
sci.electronics	caltech puff ftp tools article apr sni mje sni mike evis writes there does anyone know whether the puff design package available via ftp from any site understand the public domain please correct wrong this one puff sold caltech although very inexpensively for the quality source was also available for the earlier releases for nominal charge but not sure this practise continued regards stu beal mwm csx cciw national water research institute burlington ontario canada made through yet another nuclear winter and the lawn had just trapped and eaten its first robin kyle spiller
sci.electronics	luser article apr sol ctr columbia edu seema madvlsi columbia edu seema varma writes looking for high speed converter least bits and mhz for testing chip any ideas where can find such monster paper the january issue ieee journal solid state circuits authors from philips eindhoven mentions ghz bits gaas dac they use their testing know that such circuits are around somewhere triquint beaverton oregon has been selling bit ghz for several years have used and works well faster settling time and smaller glitch area than any video dacs have seen also they have been developing more precise version that may for sale now somewhere the bit area ghz arnold frisch tektronix laboratories
sci.electronics	why circuit boards are green kuusama kaarne tut kuusama juha vtt writes not that the question anything important but still curious why that almost all printed circuit boards are green have seen few blue ones but red yellow company logo etc there technical reason could that the marketing geniuses have not tought about yet the green layer solder mask and used make finished board look neat and avoid solder bridges especially when using wave soldering any other mechanized approach seen red mask but most that seen are green bakelite board will look brown colour and the solder mask put looks like brown board with green paint either side just one side the board fibreglass board will look green from the side because the green solder mask makes the board appear that colour you got fibreglass board with mask would whitish grey colour teflon boards exist well but not sure about that one guess the stuff they invented for solder mask was green they not about change also any change any chemical probably requires better than normal cleaning the machines that make boards lot companies not make their own boards they ship them real boardhouse
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected article apr yuma acns colostate edu jmiller terra colostate edu jeff miller writes earlier article kasey chang wrote nothing but you read whole suggestion saying that you register via mail mailing your registration card then the company send you the patch which includes the info you put the registration card the problem with this scheme that when buy game want play that day mailing card and from california would probably take week more didn say the program disabled did hate when people take words out context mean that once you have installed you cannot deinstall without registering transfer another machine some sort limitation the author will decide which will removed when the program registered kasey chang
sci.electronics	what type this article apr ulkyvx louisville edu kpjone ulkyvx louisville edu writes have need help identifying pin with the following label the the date code but none books list what out and can you tell what kind circuit the odd case that not the date code nte says reciever subsystem and subsystem but these are both pin packages more info please galewn watts
sci.electronics	ntsc horiz vert drive from black burst jackp netsys com jack powers writes would like hook some cameras that were recently donated our local community cable station which have sync inputs the form horizontal and vertical drive our station sync black burst which works fine with other boxes with genlock style inputs can anyone point design article whatever showing how produce the horizontal vertical drive signals check the station master sync generator you probably find that already has horizontal and vertical drive outputs that just aren being used couple cables and you business another possibility find genlockable sync generator with and outputs genlock station sync and then feed and the cameras neither these possible then you have build sync separator look the circuit diagrams your existing sync generators they probably all include circuitry that does what you want dave
sci.electronics	features for answering machines esp digital hello curious what sort neat features exist high end answering machines today particular interested features digital answering machines also what the typical amount storage minutes for these digital answering machines the reason hacking together answering machine program for zyxel modem and wondering missing something wish list arthur the first fact face that unix was not developed with security any reliable sense mind this fact alone guarantees vast number holes the security unix dennis ritchie arthur tateishi ruhtra turing utoronto
sci.electronics	laser bubblejet article apr das harvard edu squish endor uucp shishin yamada writes when soaking water lasers are slightly sharper but the only instance where needed precise layouts was printed circuit board transparencies for photoetching found textronix color phaser postscript thermal wax transfer work the best make pcb negatives directly onto transparency did the deskjet work all when printing transparencies did what sort resolution could manage adrian adrian godwin agodwin acorn adrian fangorn demon hwn khw obdisclaimer believe this rubbish don imagine that anyone else does
sci.electronics	descrambling channels sean oliver sean oliver mindlink wrote live british columbia canada the cable company use called rogers cable does anyone know their scrambling techniques and ways getting around them any suggestions what they might use don know the answer your question but sure rogers cable can tool the libery forwarding your question them and sure they will touch marc christensen
sci.electronics	solvent for duct tape adhesive know this long shot but does anyone know what solvent should use clean duct tape adhesive from carpet someone taped wires the carpet and now time move out the solvent the same what used clean the goop coax whatever that but just barely ties this query into sci electronics thanks for your help best regards ruck john ruckstuhl ruck alpha ufl edu dept electrical engineering ruck cis ufl edu uflorida ruck university florida ruck sphere cis ufl edu sphere ruck
sci.electronics	how universal are phones these days article apr sam berlin berlin wolfgang diestelkamp writes otherwise technically problem connect foreign phone either the german swedish phone system otoh neither you nor would ever try that course illegal yes the good deutsche bundespost shortly after moving germany someone told that post acronym for the public organization for the suppression technology stimmt oder miss lot things about germany yes including the bier vending machines work that were subsidized the firm but the phone system not one them tom spraggins tas virginia edu
sci.electronics	removing battery corrosion from article apr princeton edu fuchs tsar princeton edu ira fuchs there readily available solvent that does good job removing the corrosion encrustation that collects the battery terminals usually the cathode when using alkaline batteries more accurately when not using them for long time generally the corrosion signal that time send them the recyclers but you that desperate cheap try baking soda and wire brush use gloves and goggles please
sci.electronics	references for any looking for text reference that will include pinouts description and functionality for just about any made does such text exist are there docs the internet that reference would great idea each major manufacturer made available the public anonymous ftp site with all data books the form text files ala rfc style this would save time and money for the manufacturer since text file costs nothing send around the world via internet and since most users are found the internet anyway are there any books available for purchase that reference many possible going stuck obtaining zillion databooks from the manufacturers those little phonebook type books that are obsoleted every couple years
sci.electronics	clear lcd led sheets ideal item would led array for which each led about square yes very coarse this for distance viewing but window any pointers suggestions would much appreciated what pray tell are you putting together and what about costs and does have transparent totally transparent just transparent enough allow light from the other side shine through yes has very clear like wasn there and course cost always factor trying get idea the feasability such idea but don want give too much away mark
sci.electronics	voice synth chips alltronics san jose sells the votrax speech synthesis chip for about also noticed that radio shack sells the isd chip which will store small amounts digitized speech good luck
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected apr csus edu kschang sfsuvax sfsu edu kuo sheng kasey chang writes article apr yuma acns colostate edu jmiller terra colostate edu jeff miller writes earlier article kasey chang wrote nothing but you read whole suggestion saying that you register via mail mailing your registration card then the company send you the patch which includes the info you put the registration card the problem with this scheme that when buy game want play that day mailing card and from california would probably take week more didn say the program disabled did hate when people take words out context mean that once you have installed you cannot deinstall without registering transfer another machine some sort limitation the author will decide which will removed when the program registered what you can remove unless you register you gotta joking right what happens get demo version that program install and then decide that don like have register able get rid hell that the last thing would think that what you mean then you would better make pretty sure that statement that effect printed loud and clear the package better way implement the above mentioned scheme imho allow anyone install the program but they register they get some additional features enabled could mean only one new exe file needed copied have got the full version the program course anyone free delete remove that program whatever time they like still face the trouble moving the new exe file around that could solved having the user registering him self and get back specially marked for him her new exe file for some sort limitations here are some suggestions limit the size data that the program can work with disable saving the data print out with some defects the output but sure mark them such let some pop screen appear for secs when the program started and exited etc but don have that you must register able remove einari rhi
sci.electronics	flexible solar cells article apr node hub org wayne node hub org wayne dawe writes two three years ago saw report about company that had developed method making solar cells flexible substrate failing memory has convinced was some flexible metal now have application that requires flexible solar cell and was hoping someone out netland knows something about this company similar product any help would greatly appreciated wayne dawe pick path any path but don send wayne node hub org anything bigger than wayne node gts org wayne node pci wayne node uucp wayne look for these advertised sailboat supplies catalogs and sail related magazines sail david prutchi washington university prutchi mesun wustl edu campus box cec wustl edu one brookings drive louis
sci.electronics	type amplifiers article unix andrew cmu edu mark yeck writes hey can someone clue these and other weird types amplifiers just brief intro the concepts behind these would cool have the clues type and already and stuff but these other ones are mentioned occasionally and dont know what they think type like pwm scheme something thanx advanced the whole point these weird amplifier types improved efficiency class amps are pwm pulse width modulation amps which work very much like switching power supplies think seen these things called class before well they capable very high efficiencies and would suitable for very high power yet see anything like this used audiophile amp though been trying design three kilowatter for the last year used inverter for ups but have been having serious problems with layout parasitics irf parallel any help with able isolated drive ckt would appreciated not absolutely positive about this but beleive class amp one that operates off variable switched power supply rail voltage the carver amps something like this they use some sort phase control circuit not fully understand its operation reduce the transformer size and beleive that patented had apart trying fix and found that had three rail voltages that switched between ran simulation pspice and found that the topology would greatly reduce power dissipation heat under large signal conditions when driving reactive loads which draw high current the zero voltage crossings think speaker diode great sound starts with warren eggo csee usf edu the source warren renoir cftnet com
sci.electronics	emi filter what could someone tell what cornell dubilier emi filter fil rated vac just mov and ferrite dave mxx stevens institute technology hoboken new jersey
sci.electronics	how get rid flyback whine article apr princeton edu jsm shade princeton edu john scott mccauley writes recently took apart color sony clean the volume pushbuttons and when put the beast back together the flyback whine got much louder this easy fix which part resonating have heard rumors spray that will fix the noise this simple thing for repairman fix thanks scott not alone last which sony you have have sxr pre xbr series circa that damn thing used make noise like mad man had have separate problems one being the flyback the other was the assembly where the windings the yoke came together first found poking around the windings that assembly the thing would make noise guess that there was enough potential that assembly leak sprayed with dielectric insulation spray think was urethane acyrilic that fixed second flyback for the life can isolate this one leave the cover off the will quiet put the cover back and let heat start whine kinda hard solve with the cover friend mine who used fix says there might pin hole leak somewhere the flyback usually surrounded bunch black dust dirt hope this start you find something out let know aaron
sci.electronics	how universal are phones these days article apr sam berlin berlin wolfgang diestelkamp writes article hinnsr darkstar ucsc edu hugo cats ucsc edu hugo calendar writes wondering can tote american touch tone phone around with sweden and germany powered and can buy special adapter for that europe the question the general electronics work the same can buy different wall plug and refit sure have but would that the trick two things watch for germany and think the same holds for sweden only some the connections can handle tone dialing make sure the phone can set pulse dialing sweden the the first digit and all other digits are pushed down one position this makes dialing and the process converting numbers interesting task otherwise technically problem connect foreign phone either the german swedish phone system otoh neither you nor would ever try that course illegal not quite sure about the illegality using regular american phone your home system vaguely remember few years ago when deutsche bundespost split into postdienst postbank and telekom there was some discussion about new regulation know that cordless cellular phones still have approved the telekom but does that hold true for regular phones areacode germany frechen near koeln you can use touch tone dialing assume however that most areas are still exclusively set pulse dialing last time checked jan the cologne areacode was still solely pulse dialing btw touch tone does become more common germany bringin with the flourishing services germany just hope all have isdn some time affordable price idle wishes markus iturriaga things smoother with lard iturriag utkvx utk edu bring back the glory that was grease iturriag utkvx bitnet east tennessee lard advisory council millard fillmore lives got what takes take what you got
sci.electronics	why circuit boards are green why are circuit boards green the material used make them goes two names used make circuit boards called the same material used the cryogenics industrya and marine industries structural material and called and are both green they are not green because solder masking agent the basic ingredients are clear epoxy resin and glass fibers not sure what the specs are the resin but you are really curious you can call nema national electronics manufacturing association ciba geigy major manufacturer epoxy resins find out aside occasionally mix clear epoxy and glass microsphres cast small structures for cryogenics experiments the proportions glass epoxy are about the same they are the same green color
sci.electronics	fiber optic modems for sale cheap sold all but these had some offers and accepted offer for the pair from bdale gag com bdale garbee don know what happened him but won reply now that accepted offer these again please take these and use them take advantage really don know what they are worth qty canoga perkins fiber optic modems model interface appear new have powered but that all have not used them and cannot tell you whether they work not make offer thanks and please buy this stuff goes out the door mack mdgoodma cbda apgea army mil
sci.electronics	references for any previous article ree zach fit edu keith ledig writes looking for text reference that will include pinouts description and functionality for just about any made does such text exist are there docs the internet that reference would great idea each major manufacturer made available the public anonymous ftp site with all data books the form text files ala rfc style this would save time and money for the manufacturer since text file costs nothing send around the world via internet and since most users are found the internet anyway are there any books available for purchase that reference many possible going stuck obtaining zillion databooks from the manufacturers those little phonebook type books that are obsoleted every couple years use rom based system here there are about rom disks and disk changer hooked dedicated dos computer contains scanned images data book pages for several thousand parts when you ask for something knows about mostly active parts works quite well they don handle all the varieties transistors diodes that exist definately start the right direction but they need expand the data base handle more types stuff these systems aren cheap paid about for the liscence and get monthly updates some the rom disks send the old ones back them that they will keep sending the updates think pay yearly maintainence fee about get the updates you find the part you want you can look the data sheet page sized monitor special monitor from sigmasystems you can also print each page the datasheet you want laserjet printer page printing takes couple minutes per page can take while dump the pages you usually need have feeling the maker wouldn like made the data available all internet users dave dave mcmahan mcmahan netcom com
sci.electronics	mystery part have mystery part labeled nec from the low voltage supply nec multisync monitor three lead part square package like volate regulator power transistor the board labeled where the part goes possibly scr the pin labeled the board goes zener diode reference voltage the pin labeled goes the negative lead capacitor the power supply and the pin labeled goes the negative side the bridge rectifier the supply anyone can tell what this better yet where can buy one just like please email andrew cmu edu called nec monitor repair number and not only they not know what the part but they don think that they can find one sell makes sense thanks
sci.electronics	solvent for duct tape adhesive ruck beach cis ufl edu john ruckstuhl writes know this long shot but does anyone know what solvent should use clean duct tape adhesive from carpet may tease out sub thread from this discussion can you all please tell how remove the stickers from new houses appliances and outdoor lampposts especially the lamppost right the glass isn there something you can rub into stuck labels that will release them from their death grip glass other hard surfaces many thanks for any help john john gustafson johng socrates umd edu
sci.electronics	ranger shareware hello the last issue electronics world describes ranger pcb cad program according the article there crippled version available shareware does anybody know any ftp sites bbses where this program may found thanks advance terje malmedal unix dhmolde
sci.electronics	how universal are video phones these days just saw article new scientist videophones won talk bti videophones the ones use modem bti uses models have communicate using all exchanges whereas the bti can route via most current exchanges suggestions include building standards converters into telephone exchanges the mind boggles the bti design bit more conservative and better able cope with current data compression hardware long distance lines not having the magazine hand may have mis remembered bti think british one made gec marconi and currently selling other countries yet another standards screw andrew daviel vancouver canada advax triumf finger advax reg triumf for pgp key
sci.electronics	transmitter ics help trying design small mhz transmitter for remote alarm use there transmitter available that can used for this purpose any help circuits info etc will greatfully accepted please reply bsc graham seqeb gov thanks advance graham castledine
sci.electronics	lead acid batteries part the lead acid secondary cell releases energy electricity with the following chemical reaction pbo pbso lead and lead oxide and sulfuric acid produce lead sulfate and water heats formation deleted the heat reaction therefore kcal per mole pbso produced note that lead sulfate not very soluble grams per grams water and will thus precipitate out solution where the reaction occurring the cathode positive terminal the battery almost sure the positive terminal where the precipitate forms but may wrong well don have corroded battery corrobate and don feel like thinking through right now the major problem with this that the reaction takes place acid solution pbso soluble acid solution and will not precipitate out also water solution and thus the heats formation pbso and are for the most part irrelevant what important notice here that the reaction you knew would exothermic energy discharging turns out the reaction indeed exothermic heat producing more about this later what actually happens make the battery completely useless this talking lead acid batteries course the battery slowly self discharges this discharge takes place two things happen the level ions the acid solution increases the lead and lead oxide plates are dissolved the level ions the acid solution decreases the solution becomes less acidic more like water you like now the post which responding correctly stated pbso will precipitate water non acid solution when the battery dies fully discharged end with high concentration and water pbso forms the solution and falls the bottom the battery course this happens varying degrees the more discharged the more precipitate forms the precipitate forms conductive layer the bottom the battery there enough the lead and lead oxide plates left touch the precipitate more common newer battery dead short results have seen products automotive shops correct this condition but they are for the most part useless they can dissolve the pbso but cannot restore the lead and lead oxide plates properly you may have some success with these products for newer battery stuff deleted understand why lead acid batteries indeed discharge faster when stored concrete opposed wood earth dirt one should recall lechatelier principle which can paraphrased anything subjected some stress will act move more comfortable position here are the thermal conductivities some selected materials stuff deleted this where lechatelier principle comes into play removing energy from the exothermic reaction will drive the reaction further completion the reaction normally occurs room temperature keeping the battery that temperature requires the removal any heat produced concrete surface better heat sink than dirt wood surface store battery the corner poured concrete basement and you have surfaces removing energy which pulls the reaction along this stuff just made the author and completely invalid fact the discharge reaction takes place higher rate higher temperatures logical consequence the above argument this you really want your car start lower the battery temperature pull the reaction along all know from experience least those canada gets cold here that this not true want start our car really cold day warm the battery besides which there not enough energy released through self discharge appreciably raise the temperature the air would amply dissipate any such heat whether the bottom the battery was insulated not this course irrelevant since you would want the battery cool during storage just keep the battery cool dry place and keep charged
sci.electronics	pcmcia article nac synapse org martin vuille synapse org martin vuille writes does anyone know who contact obtain copy the pcmcia standard pcmcia east duane sunnyvale usa see also alt periphs pcmcia thanks dave pierson the facts accurately can manage digital equipment corporation the opinions own old bolton the nra stow mass usa pierson msd enet dec com has read everything and his credit written nothing raffles
sci.electronics	solvent for duct tape adhesive have used product called goof off comes little yellow can about the size deck playing cards has worked well for removing all kinds sticker and tape residues note always test small area inconspicuous place before using good luck wes whiteley wesw com
sci.electronics	pre fab case power supplies and csa fcc stuff what kind csa fcc approval mail order computer cases and power supplies have can assume that the certification process for small scale custom hardware digital analog circuitry reduced even eliminated use such case and certified power supply also assuming that use certified power supply have satisfied the requirements csa approval and possibly fcc approval well mail order cases satisfy fcc certification fcc certification even necessary for scientific non commercial non residential use
sci.electronics	solvent for duct tape adhesive ruck beach cis ufl edu john ruckstuhl writes least locally many shops carry product called goo gone works well scummy gummy sticky goop that won away always color test inconspicuous corner before use joseph chiu josephc cco caltech edu you gotta get this thing msc caltech pasadena happiness suspending wings make appointment calendar entry and send fax and resuming the game
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected still think major point being missed you are worried about software pirates nothing will stop them these are people who crack software mostly games but what daily for fun they can usually find crack around anything especially the manufacturer leaves hole for such thing are having fun yet
sci.electronics	radar laser detectors article gornish apr csrd uiuc edu gornish csrd uiuc edu edward gornish writes what are people opinions about laser detectors escort makes laser detector the passport and claims works fine however talked some people who have said that will only work you are lucky the cop happens point his laser car front you and the laser beam happens reflect back your detector otherwise won work regular radar course travels all directions hence more detectable any comments escort has deal till the end april think where you buy their wideband passport and laser detectors you save off buying them separately this case the addition the laser detector over the passport only passport normally costs uniden makes all one unit laser for about colorado radar sells passive radar jammers the passive supposedly being legal for about wont help you with laser however scott
sci.electronics	solvent for duct tape adhesive article apr socrates umd edu johng socrates umd edu john gustafson writes ruck beach cis ufl edu john ruckstuhl writes know this long shot but does anyone know what solvent should use clean duct tape adhesive from carpet may tease out sub thread from this discussion can you all please tell how remove the stickers from new houses appliances and outdoor lampposts especially the lamppost right the glass isn there something you can rub into stuck labels that will release them from their death grip glass other hard surfaces many thanks for any help john john gustafson johng socrates umd edu try
sci.electronics	solvent for duct tape adhesive article apr socrates umd edu johng socrates umd edu john gustafson writes know this long shot but does anyone know what solvent should use clean duct tape adhesive from carpet may tease out sub thread from this discussion can you all please tell how remove the stickers from new houses appliances and outdoor lampposts especially the lamppost right the glass isn there something you can rub into stuck labels that will release them from their death grip glass other hard surfaces petroleum naphtha available most hardware stores will remove most adhesives frank reid ucs indiana edu
sci.electronics	does any one know what the biggest rom for present please replay yxy usl edu thanks lot
sci.electronics	solvent for duct tape adhesive what usually use and this stuff only good glass either acetone little benzene the latter the two bit dangerous possibly carcinogen but usualy gets the job done imagine you can you the two solvents most metals well glass but keep the stuff away from plastic better yet you may just want your local hardware store and ask them what they use
sci.electronics	solvent for duct tape adhesive article inn snoopy cis ufl edu ruck beach cis ufl edu john ruckstuhl writes know this long shot but does anyone know what solvent should use clean duct tape adhesive from carpet someone taped wires the carpet and now time move out don know for sure that this will work but you might try mek methyl ethyl keytone worked getting the stickum left over from shelf paper and available paint stores use carbon gas mask and lots ventilation this stuff really stinks dan
sci.electronics	solvent for duct tape adhesive article apr socrates umd edu johng socrates umd edu john gustafson writes ruck beach cis ufl edu john ruckstuhl writes know this long shot but does anyone know what solvent should use clean duct tape adhesive from carpet use may tease out sub thread from this discussion can you all please tell how remove the stickers from new houses appliances and outdoor lampposts especially the lamppost right the glass isn there something you can rub into stuck labels that will release them from their death grip glass other hard surfaces many thanks for any help try xavier matthew xavier mora matt mora sri com sri international mxmora unix sri com ravenswood ave menlo park
sci.electronics	moisture repellant was lead acid batteries article apr auvax adelphi edu schmidt auvax adelphi edu writes platen etc flew across the room and several people the room almost had heart attacks beware the explosive properties vapor use starting fluid for jet ski the fact that its lubricant works very well since jet ski are cycle also helps when ski floods with water because clean the spark plus with the stuff sci electronics have office studio garage with phone our wireless phone has page feature where you can make the phone hand set ring get the attention the other person there simple circuit that can use over the second pair wires the first pair emulate this effect with the phone the garage push button make the phone ring the house push button make ring the garage thanks xavier matthew xavier mora matt mora sri com sri international mxmora unix sri com ravenswood ave menlo park
sci.electronics	oversampling player article mcmahanc mkj netcom com mcmahan netcom com dave mahan writes previous article kolstad cae wisc edu joel kolstad writes article hcbc netcom com hcb netcom com bowman writes just bought new portable player for the office and notice that proudly proclaims times oversampling the box the data only ever read once barring mistracks and such course and eventually gets turned into khz bit two channel data oversampling takes two discrete data points and interpolates points between them for times oversampling when asked people said that the interpolation was not simply linear interpolation but significantly more complicated you are quite correct your understanding case you care the filtering method uses fir finite impulse response filter guess that makers use the same kind method anybody out there know the real answer typical the old oversampling units was thirteen tap fir implemented dedicated hardware addition circuit this kind speed slow digital standards such adder much less expensive than analog components comparable precision gleaned this information from hardware manual for old player design where one would find similar info for particular the digital filter interesting component from point view have idea the digital filter kind interpolation scheme read book numerical analysis see just how broad the term interpolation john whitmore
sci.electronics	how universal are phones these days article apr utkvx utk edu iturriag utkvx utk edu writes not quite sure about the illegality using regular american phone your home system vaguely remember few years ago when deutsche bundespost split into postdienst postbank and telekom there was some discussion about new regulation know that cordless cellular phones still have approved the telekom but does that hold true for regular phones areacode germany frechen near koeln you can use touch tone dialing assume however that most areas are still exclusively set pulse dialing last time checked jan the cologne areacode was still solely pulse dialing btw touch tone does become more common germany bringin with the flourishing services germany just hope all have isdn some time affordable price idle wishes does this imply the german tone dialing compatible with the american one know least the british system not supposedly close enough though that american phone will work but modem american has special setting for british standards michael michael lemke astronomy austin texas michael utexas edu utspan utadnx michael span
sci.electronics	vga circuit come across circuit from integrated circuit systems inc called gsp this chip genlocks vga card dual input ntsc signal the output from this chip basicly pixel clock and has various speeds notice that outputs mhz clock can this output used amiga system and must ntsc vga can ntsc ntsc any simple circuits boost ntsc vga signal need genlock laser disc khz video john flux inqmind bison the inquiring mind bbs winnipeg manitoba
sci.electronics	free eprom eraser pcb exposer twin cities collect this inelegant device started life watt security lamp until smashed off the outer glass liberate the nasty rays works treat weighs heap due the ballast and wont ship cheers mike
sci.electronics	cable tvi interference remember rightly there pulsating set tones piped thru the catv systems somewheres near the broadcast band and that the cable company trucks listen for this they roam around town you can hear over the air and not cable
sci.electronics	help wanted pinouts oki rtc can anybody send pinouts real time clock oki semiconductors wish know any rtc oki has inbuilt crystal rather than external khz crystal thanks advance nilesh parikh nilesh shakti ncst ernet
sci.electronics	programming motorola has anyone successfully programmed this beast using the bootloader pgm with the circuit described the little green handbook dan adrian blockley may say something profound environmental science here one day murdoch university western australia blockley essun murdoch edu phone
sci.electronics	silver solder article dec shiekh ictp trieste andy shiekh writes have seen the existance electronics solder with silver content that seems have good wetting and fatique reatings can anyone tell why not used silver not such expensive metal from management electronics assembly ian oakes after talking about tin lead alloy and the eutectic point occasionally impurities may added solder vary charactersitics within the soldering process attempt improve performance for example addition small quantities antimony and copper can reduce the amount solder moves under stress when solid for particular applications additions impurities may warranted but general best keep the solder used soldering process pure possible guess this the good oil for commercial operations but doesn mention anything esoteric leon
sci.electronics	solvent for duct tape adhesive from article apr csi jpl nasa gov eldred rrunner jpl nasa gov dan eldred article inn snoopy cis ufl edu ruck beach cis ufl edu john ruckstuhl writes know this long shot but does anyone know what solvent should use clean duct tape adhesive from carpet someone taped wires the carpet and now time move out don know for sure that this will work but you might try mek methyl ethyl keytone worked getting the stickum left over from shelf paper and available paint stores use carbon gas mask and lots ventilation this stuff really stinks dan for those who don know methyl ethyl ketone more commonly known acetone and can found the major active ingredient nail polish remover your wife probably got some hangin around
sci.electronics	parallel trying bring bits and would like use interrupt driven routines without buying board making new port where can bring these bits lpt seems have only few inputs but heard rumours that some lpts have bidirectional lines anybody know fer sure any lpts which boards have them running new alan erickson erickson baltic nmt edu all sunrayce competitors hope you getting about much sleep
sci.electronics	help needed with light dependent resistor devices ldrs can some kind soul provide with information ldrs that contain onboard light source totally integrated and light shielded unit have seen vtl ldr some schematics who are the manufacturers these devices and what are the different types thanks very much advance jim jim trivellas department electrical electronic engineering school information technology electrical engineering the university melbourne parkville victoria australia telephone email jimt mullian hello that the front desk allan holdsworth the spid
sci.electronics	how universal are phones these days sent baud modem cousin greece from the and working fine for him also worked for jim james tsillas jtsilla damon ccs northeastern edu work home after jim after him hop pop seuss
sci.electronics	how universal are phones these days lhe apr yang sics lhe sics lars henrik eriksson writes most not virtually all swedish exchanges can handle tone dialling many older electromechanical exchanges have been modified accept tone dialling would not suprised the equipment compatible fact new york telephone nynex spend lot money swedish switching equipment recently lars henrik eriksson internet lhe sics you can guess what brand equipment refer michael this land said the god who seeks shall find who sits with folded hands sleeps blind sophocles
sci.electronics	power signal surges home wrote bit you could take the tape over local ham operator house and ask him for his opinion what you hearing most communities you cannot that legally however you can ask ham over listen the interference occurs specific time each day then would possible such scheduling nothing else you could invite the ham over transmit from your driveway see interferes does then you probably need have your equipment worked make immune interference coupld people have pointed out this wrong not illegal record disclose what you heard the ham bands bill
sci.electronics	power signal surges home galen picea cfnr colostate edu galen watts writes why can record legally may not admissable court but recording for personal use legal wants play for his ham friend that legal too long doesn charge admission yeah goofed slip the mind must getting senile deleted hey bill where were you three weeks ago when all this stuff was posted and dealt with busy posting about other groups get this one about once every three months bill
sci.electronics	long distance detection article apr ennews eas asu edu gsulliva enuxha eas asu edu glenn sullivan writes designed and built hardware that would output logic level from tone detector upon detecting microwatt led feet away used motorola mrd biased linearly feedback loop servo out variations sunlight and from lights used lenses allen sullivan would interested knowing more about the sensing hardware what did you use for the detector could you detect the angle location did the system simply respond the presence the transmitter the sensors field view
sci.electronics	removing battery corrosion article apr uvm edu pjd emba news uvm edu uucp peter demko writes from article apr princeton edu fuchs tsar princeton edu ira fuchs there readily available solvent that does good job removing the corrosion encrustation that collects the battery terminals usually the cathode when using alkaline batteries more accurately when not using them for long time generally the corrosion signal that time send them the recyclers but you that desperate cheap try baking soda and wire brush use gloves and goggles please sorry meant the terminals the device not the batteries which are obviously quite dead
sci.electronics	wanted source for tuning capacitors hello there the other day was feeling tad nostalgic and thought about constructing old time crytal radio set figured substituting modern germanium diode for the crystal and winding the antenna coil etc myself the only problem seem have locating source for tuning capacitor you know the old meshed plate variable condensers which used the mainstay for tuning circuits well these things seem all but extinct their original catalog habitats trimmer capacitors are relatively abundant but are not really suitable for this application can anyone point supplier tuning capacitors the range manythanks greg neill ounce ouns the standard unit hnsx supercomputers inc prevention equal one pound cure gneill cid aes doe
sci.electronics	filter design software for ibm has anyone got active filter design program that runs ibm something that will easily let specify bandpass filter parameters and will give the appropriate component values has public domain anyone has one could you mail thanks advance scott wraith uow edu can run under windows necessary
sci.electronics	why circuit boards are green article apr mala wagner mala tom wagner wizzard old audio visual equipment nanaimo campus writes the color the board shows the composition hence the use original and older boards were bakelite composition and were brown phenolic spelling was tan most non filled fiberglass boards used computers are green filled fiberglass blue teflon white rubbish the reason for the colour the boards depends the solder mask that used older boards bakelite and phenolic rarely used solder mask these boards are not suited well automatic stuffing and soldering techniques and hence are the colour the compound used make them these days boards are made fibreglass for most general purpose uses and have solder mask applied them prevent close traces shorting one another during soldering and also prevent the decomposition traces under harsh environments the light and dark green boards ofter seen have dry film mask applied them usually applied complete film photographically produced the blue and red orange boards are two part epoxy liquid imageable resist formulation and are applied different manner there lot info about the pro and con each but that another story sla ill risky geoff swan research development swanee mega com megadata pty ltd waterloo north ryde nsw australia fax
sci.electronics	parallel erickson azure nmt edu alan erickson writes trying bring bits and would like use interrupt driven routines without buying board making new port where can bring these bits lpt seems have only few inputs but heard rumours that some lpts have bidirectional lines anybody know fer sure any lpts which boards have them running new yes possible making stepper controller board with digital inputs and digital outputs from the port one main thing that will tell you whether the port directional not the bus tranceiver look for chip numbered you don have this then probably which will you good for reading now you have the then the following first find the address the port decimal either pascal you would write port xxx where xxx the address either hex decimal the status lines pins well the strobe pin are directional lines and are read base address for read from status then read from you can also output these lines the same fashion the data lines pascal port xxx value hope this helps let know you need more help inspiration comes baden sys bison those who baden inqmind bison seek the baden bari unknown
sci.electronics	fax machine scanners mono computer scanners was wondering since got few fax machine scanners intact they could integrated the environment mono scanner where start thanks inspiration comes baden sys bison those who baden inqmind bison seek the baden bari unknown
sci.electronics	phosphorescent pads while ago saw some translucent pads about that could plugged into something and they would glow one was red another green another blue interresting was wondering anyone would have feed anything this nature and the price the pads were rubber like and were floppy like about thick thanks inspiration comes baden sys bison those who baden inqmind bison seek the baden bari unknown
sci.electronics	wanting anyone would have low quantity distributer for these little beasts motorola please let know baden bari baden sys bison baden inqmind bison true life can only experianced those who not fear death
sci.electronics	solvent for duct tape adhesive article apr mnemosyne edu gvolk nyx edu greg volk writes what usually use and this stuff only good glass either acetone little benzene the latter the two bit dangerous possibly carcinogen but usualy gets the job done imagine you can you the two solvents most metals well glass but keep the stuff away from plastic benzene most definitely carcinogen you can get your hands don use michael brown csulo csv warwick mjb dcs warwick lost interest bad lost apathy
sci.electronics	solvent for duct tape adhesive article apr uvm edu pjd emba news uvm edu uucp peter demko writes from article apr csi jpl nasa gov eldred rrunner jpl nasa gov dan eldred article inn snoopy cis ufl edu ruck beach cis ufl edu john ruckstuhl writes know this long shot but does anyone know what solvent should use clean duct tape adhesive from carpet someone taped wires the carpet and now time move out don know for sure that this will work but you might try mek methyl ethyl keytone worked getting the stickum left over from shelf paper and available paint stores use carbon gas mask and lots ventilation this stuff really stinks dan for those who don know methyl ethyl ketone more commonly known acetone and can found the major active ingredient nail polish remover your wife probably got some hangin around dear time for try remember chemistry let see can find the formulae somewhere the dim recesses mind sounds gears fumes overheated oil unmistakable stench the nasal chromatograph knew there was double bond now how shall show that ascii mek acetone the hydrogens are not shown and represents double bond mek has methyl one side and ethyl the other acetone has two methyls acetone not methyl ethyl ketone but instead dimethyl ketone both solvents have similar properties think that mek may little less flammable but lot worse breathe lot harder buy mek than once was use acetone nail polish remover consists almost entirely acetone you buy some for your workshop get the very cheapest because the more expensive kind has oils and perfumes that you don need nothing foolish that has not been posted some net newsgroup peter neilson neilson osf org quote changed daily you seen this one before burn your calendar
sci.electronics	card phones can you help understand how cardphone operates and how the values are stored the phonecard thanx
sci.electronics	how universal are phones these days article einnfce shelley washington edu kniha carson washington edu dagmar amtmann writes there wire without any jack the end sticking out the wall you need connect the wires not sure they have wall jacks western europe they may son the return the how much does americans know about the rest the word flamewar anyone bertil can shown that for any nutty theory beyond the fringe political view strange religion there exists proponent the net the proof left exercise for your kill file
sci.electronics	references for any previous article ree zach fit edu keith ledig writes looking for text reference that will include pinouts description and functionality for just about any made you can find cross reference almost any discrete semiconductor philips ecg semiconductors master replacement guide especially industrial commercial and entertainment but not specialised military francois
sci.electronics	how universal are phones these days article gwq news chalmers bertil dtek chalmers bertil jonell writes article einnfce shelley washington edu kniha carson washington edu dagmar amtmann writes there wire without any jack the end sticking out the wall you need connect the wires not sure they have wall jacks western europe they may son the return the how much does americans know about the rest the word flamewar anyone doing that one british the moment
sci.electronics	solvent for duct tape adhesive benzene and acetone not only benzene carcinogen adsorbed through the skin and cause cumulative damage the bone marrow which essential the production your blood cells highly toxic one exposure unlikely kill you but will likely hidden damage benzene one compound that chemists try like hell avoid using acetone much less toxic but highly flammable and volatile also dissolves lots things handle with great care jonathan harris department chemical engineering mit ames street cambridge harris athena mit edu fax
sci.electronics	sound systems would like get some information the current systems used for sound systems thanks
sci.electronics	solvent for duct tape adhesive acetone will likely damage the carpet first solvent try denatured alcohol not waste your time with rubbing alcohol you can use methyl alcohol instead denatured alcohol you want have cocktail while you are removing the goo use pure grain alcohol the alcohol does not work try carbon tetrachloride neither these work you may need try stronger solvent but the alcohol works for most adhesives good luck jim
sci.electronics	how universal are phones these days bertil dtek chalmers bertil jonell writes article einnfce shelley washington edu kniha carson washington edu dagmar amtmann writes there wire without any jack the end sticking out the wall you need connect the wires not sure they have wall jacks western europe they may son the return the how much does americans know about the rest the word flamewar anyone well bertil you might laugh but many places here austria there are wall jacks yet either just wires sticking out the wall and put into closed often sealed box far remember from germany nicely mixed situation somebody had wires sticking somebody had jacks the other hand everywhere bohemia have seen wall jacks and never seen just wires sticking out the wall and thought slovakia was the same case well how much scandinavians know about the rest europe tom tomas kovar alcatel austria forschungszentrum wien ruthnergasse tel fax mail tom kovar rcvie
sci.electronics	silver solder shiekh ictp trieste andy shiekh writes have seen the existance electronics solder with silver content that seems have good wetting and fatique reatings can anyone tell why not used silver not such expensive metal this called silver bearing solder used solder devices that have silvered contacts one application soldering the ceramic terminal strips used the old tektronix scopes these were notched ceramic strips that were silver plated the notches you used ordinary solder the molten metal would disolve the silver off the ceramic the silver was quite thin the saturated solution silver tin and lead thus more silver can disolved the solder solution other devices that use silver contacts are quartz crystals and ultrasonic transducers peter reilley pvr wiis wang com lat for info beav binary editor and viewer finger pvr das wang com well that about says
sci.electronics	correction harris answerfax phone number rrrrr rrrrr iiiii ssss hhhhhh aaaaa rrrrr rrrrr ssss iiiii ssss harris semiconductor now has answerfax answerfax line hours day days week you can instantly receive datasheets and application notes using your touch tone telephone and fax machine the number call not set international calls this time the general decision tree for the answerfax follows the numbers are the available selections welcome harris semiconductors answerfax select you select for are familiar with explanation answerfax answerfax select order select for document the list catalogs document list new products the catalogs linear products get them first data acquisition products digital signal processing products discrete power and intelligent power products application notes select appropriate document select appropriate catalog you want order you want order anything else yes anything else yes you will taken back you will taken back the selection decision the selection decision what phone number for your fax what your name request the instructions end bill werner bill werner wwerner hsscam mis semi harris com harris semiconductor wwerner thor mlb semi harris com melbourne florida life but candle and dream will give flame rush caress steel
sci.electronics	how universal are phones these days bertil dtek chalmers bertil jonell writes son the return the how much does americans know about the rest the word flamewar anyone let save some bandwidth skip the intermediate articles and straight the nazis and hitler have wall sockets thank you and they better than yours segmented memory helps structure software
sci.electronics	how the disks copy protected article hrinn dolphin zoo yale edu stone andy yale edu andy stone writes subject how the disks copy protected wrote commercial program called game maker can you guess what does what have document protect answer question page line which real pain also allow the user register sending card and computing based their name the system works that gotten lots registration cards hear that the program has been cracked though someone two people actually called support one with question the other wanting buy our graphics libraries right anyway anyone wants help catch cracker and has the cracked version mail won accuse you unless you the cracker course know least one ftp site from which you can download the cracks about any commercial game existence the names the companies yes companies are also blatantly advertised with the crack codes according them not illegal least the usa according statute something remove the copy protection from any program the only condition that you may only use this code legally owned software for your own convenience there any interest will download the advertisement one such company will not give the name this ftp site anyone even only protect the companies which wrote the original games disclaimer not condone the use cracking any programs believe hurts the industry and individuals the long run the subject copy protection most pirates don give damn about using software which the name the registered owner came starting the program they just don have conscience gerrit
sci.electronics	transmitter ics help article apr seqeb gov writes trying design small mhz transmitter for remote alarm use pretty high frequency for one chip there transmitter available that can used for this purpose any help circuits info etc will greatfully accepted please reply bsc graham seqeb gov yes and would use the transmitter chip from motorola linear and interface databook stable cristal oscillator and mixer sbl from mini circuits lab everything done the chip and then mixed with the oscillator frequency just have look the arrl handbook there are lots ideas there about oscillators and mixing don think there are single chip designs for such high frequencies yet thanks advance graham castledine cheers robert nby robert ganter universitaet basel fan institut fuer informatik plan basel switzerland ganter ifi unibas amateurradio nby packet nby eas che
sci.electronics	solvent for duck tape adhesive you want try non toxic solvent there one made citrus that works very well and doesn take your skin off the process one brand name used citra solve but there are others too
sci.electronics	looking for good book pspice just got copy spice would like know there are any published books the market yet and where could get one would appreciate any help thank you neil gandler
sci.electronics	solvent for duct tape adhesive article inn snoopy cis ufl edu ruck beach cis ufl edu john ruckstuhl writes know this long shot but does anyone know what solvent should use clean duct tape adhesive from carpet yet another suggestion but this one non toxic although would handle like any other cleaner and smells nice the chemical called limonene and smells like lemon peels think lemon extract some kind you might find hardware store sold general purpose solvent but your best bet would any bike store used chain cleaning fluid works sticker glue crayons grease oil etc clear yellow the bottle and you can use straight you add water changes creamy consistency which good for some jobs peter
sci.electronics	acceleration sensor does anyone know any type acceleration sensor that has electrical output any sort would only have sense acceleration one direction thanx mike michael deaddio mts work hard play hard bell communication research the only problem that deaddio thumper bellcore com playing hard makes working harder mre
sci.electronics	old schematics wonder anyone would know where could find the schematic for the old timex sinclare computer even pin out the expansion bus thanks advance ian nelson inelson ucf ucf edu
sci.electronics	disk drive read write working project and need information regarding the currents the head needed write hard drive and the currents produced when reading anyone has information would much appreciated mcole nmsu edu
sci.electronics	acceleration sensor article apr walter bellcore com deaddio ski bellcore com michael deaddio writes does anyone know any type acceleration sensor that has electrical output any sort would only have sense acceleration one direction gee how about ahem accelerometer such devices are available from variety sources one that comes mind bruel kjaer you have lot money spend most these sorts devices output voltage proportional acceleration you need know what range you talking about though dick pierce loudspeaker and software consulting sartelle street pepperell voice and fax
sci.electronics	solvent for duct tape adhesive article almaden ibm com jmichael vnet ibm com writes from jmichael vnet ibm com date tue apr edt subject solvent for duct tape adhesive you are removing the goo use pure grain alcohol the alcohol does not work try carbon tetrachloride neither these work you may need not heat the ccl makes phosgene gas poison gas fame remember when they used carbon tet fire extinguishers yes know was yelling wex
sci.electronics	manual the one three oscillators that made many years ago the others were the low frequency oscillator and the wide range oscillator these are the ones with the diameter chrome dial wein bridge circuit that used pilot lights the feedback loop and firebottles that produced many volts output just acquired pair these venerable old beasts the non working one owned crosley radio one point needs help know can likely buy microfiche copy the book from but that costs and considering paid dollar for the pair the rain the dayton hamvention does anyone have such book they could copy parts for thank you
sci.electronics	why circuit boards are green sci electronics swanee megadata mega geoff swan writes rubbish the reason for the colour the boards depends the solder the may cover qst has picture three different boards without any solder mask you can tell from the copper colored traces the box labeled transverter has the brown teflon glass board while the one the center has the grayish board exposed the left some fiberglass board that looks green see reason for putting solder mask circuit board used for box covers wonder any manufacturer actually puts solder mask their low noise microwave preamps often microwave circuits have odd bits wire foil metal attached wherever whatever necessary make the unit work properly this commercial product solder mask would certainly make doing this tougher never mind the finding something that minimally degrades the circuits dope for coils does not improve the just holds things together with minimal loss zack lau internet zlau arrl org working ghz ssb gear operating interests ghz ssb mail arrl lab main street station capability qrp mhz ghz newington modes ssb packet amtor baudot phone you really have zack lau internet zlau arrl org working ghz ssb gear operating interests ghz ssb mail arrl lab main street station capability qrp mhz ghz newington modes ssb packet amtor baudot phone you really have mask that used older boards bakelite and phenolic rarely used solder mask these boards are not suited well automatic stuffing and soldering techniques and hence are the colour the compound used make them these days boards are made fibreglass for most general purpose uses and have solder mask applied them prevent close traces shorting one another during soldering and also prevent the decomposition traces under harsh environments the light and dark green boards ofter seen have dry film mask applied them usually applied complete film photographically produced the blue and red orange boards are two part epoxy liquid imageable resist formulation and are applied different manner there lot info about the pro and con each but that another story sla ill risky geoff swan research development swanee mega com megadata pty ltd waterloo north ryde nsw australia fax
sci.electronics	parallel from article apr nmt edu erickson azure nmt edu alan erickson trying bring bits and would like use interrupt driven routines without buying board making new port where can bring these bits lpt seems have only few inputs but heard rumours that some lpts have bidirectional lines anybody know fer sure any lpts which boards have them running new alan erickson erickson baltic nmt edu all sunrayce competitors hope you getting about much sleep watching one being built right here uvm and the team shaggin these days pjd uvm edu
sci.electronics	parallel from article qekn sys bison baden sys bison baden bari erickson azure nmt edu alan erickson writes trying bring bits and would like use interrupt driven routines without buying board making new port where can bring these bits lpt seems have only few inputs but heard rumours that some lpts have bidirectional lines anybody know fer sure any lpts which boards have them running new yes possible making stepper controller board with digital inputs and digital outputs from the port one main thing that will tell you whether the port directional not the bus tranceiver look for chip numbered you don have this then probably which will you good for reading now you have the then the following first find the address the port decimal either pascal you would write port xxx where xxx the address either hex decimal the status lines pins well the strobe pin are directional lines and are read base address for read from status then read from you can also output these lines the same fashion the data lines pascal port xxx value hope this helps let know you need more help inspiration comes baden sys bison those who baden inqmind bison seek the baden bari unknown happens you helped quite bit considering building very similar device just for something this summer the idea code the output bits into multiple bit current amplified output channels software will handle the way the amplified outputs are manipulated that this magic box can handle more applications than just stepper motors also looking for robot arm cheap attach this box can wow and impress friends any hints peter demko pjd uvm edu
sci.electronics	phosphorescent pads baden sys bison baden bari writes while ago saw some translucent pads about that could plugged into something and they would glow one was red another green another blue interresting was wondering anyone would have feed anything this nature and the price the pads were rubber like and were floppy like about thick the curiosities that you speak are electro luminescent pads they are mostly used backlights for lcd and you pointed out comes several different colors many them emit white ish colors true white and blue whiteis blue are the ones that personally encountered the most often they vary their input requirements however they tend operate about vrms and much higher than khz recall correctly you can get them work vrms line but they don glow brightly and they will degrade much faster yes almost forgot have this tendency wear out over time joseph chiu josephc cco caltech edu you gotta get this thing msc caltech pasadena dear ibm hire bunch technically incompetent people like brother test installation procedures
sci.electronics	pressure zone microphones remember back before commercial mikes with the pzm label for pressure zone microphone started showing read article some engineering journal that described the principles involved all the physics aside from practicle standpoint the author said they built prototype with nothing more than small sony lavelier mike laid against large aluminum disk demonstrating presentation audio engineers this was impressive enough that the people present were bugging them about where they could buy them anyway want build some use choir mikes wide coverage had good luck using some small electret mike elements got from digi key most these are limited bandwidth peakey units but for buck two more got the ones spec out khz with bit flatter response the distance the mike opening from the flat plate kind critical debating whether mount side which puts the opening shade under from the plate mounting with the opening actually pointing down into the plate small clearance haven dissected unit like you can buy radio shack see how they thoughts paul marxhausen university nebraska lincoln grace happens
sci.electronics	spice for with processer want run spice can learn more about amplifiers and oscilators there version this that will run with math processer where can get thanks for any and all help jeff jeff jones oppose the north american free trade agreement jeffj seeker mystic com canada usa free trade cost canada jobs infolinc bbs want guess how many lose mexico
sci.electronics	parallel erickson azure nmt edu alan erickson writes trying bring bits and would like use interrupt driven routines without buying board making new port where can bring these bits lpt seems have only few inputs but heard rumours that some lpts have bidirectional lines anybody know fer sure any lpts which boards have them running new know for sure that the everex magic can jumpered for printer mode for general purpose bidirectional mode also know for sure that the ibm technical reference says the following about the monochrome display printer adapter and the ibm parallel printer adapter essential that the external device not try pull these lines referring the data lines ground and later external device should driving data these pins violation usage ground rules the time input this data will with the latch contents will accept responsibility you incur damages any kind result saying not know for sure but think you should able use traditional parallel port input port writing the data lines and then reading from the data lines while external device drives them the input data will not latched noise could make this infeasible todd
sci.electronics	why circuit boards are green article apr mega com swanee megadata mega geoff swan writes article apr mala wagner mala tom wagner wizzard old audio visual equipment nanaimo campus writes the color the board shows the composition hence the use original and older boards were bakelite composition and were brown phenolic spelling was tan most non filled fiberglass boards used computers are green filled fiberglass blue teflon white rubbish the reason for the colour the boards depends the solder mask that used older boards bakelite and phenolic rarely used solder mask these boards are not suited well automatic stuffing and soldering techniques and hence are the colour the compound used make them these days boards are made fibreglass for most general purpose uses and have solder mask applied them prevent close traces shorting one another during soldering and also prevent the decomposition traces under harsh environments the light and dark green boards ofter seen have dry film mask applied them usually applied complete film photographically produced the blue and red orange boards are two part epoxy liquid imageable resist formulation and are applied different manner there lot info about the pro and con each but that another story sla ill risky geoff swan research development swanee mega com megadata pty ltd waterloo north ryde nsw australia fax sorry geoff agree solder mask green but the old days didn have wave soldering machines which are another topic again had crew dozen ladies which could stuff and hand solder board like lightning board under the mask was the original query btw cheap inport electronic devices mainly from world countries are done with brown pheonolic boards seems the electronics industry has discovered the cheap labor pools workers are paid the board assemble circuits home they are very obviously hand soldered quite few tape recorders are being brought into canada from red china china there warranty for the equipment other than you plug and works yours one workers spent year there and said the failure rate out the box was almost also the original method for making printed with conductive ink regular printing press old lithographer friend had press for this after the etching method was developed used the press print wood grain doors tom tom wagner audio visual technician malaspina college nanaimo british columbia loc fax callsign gda weapon kentucky rifle snail mail site nanaimo british columbia canada not recyle keep everything all standard disclaimers apply
sci.electronics	and now serious magazine for some time been thinking about the possiblity starting group where scientific articles can published perhaps just summaries possible advantages would free disribution fast acceptance online discussion between authers and readers this would possible with one group with moderator for publishing the articles and one perhaps without for discussion the best thing would all the articles would standard format which would make possible print view the documents camera ready perhaps postscript rich text format but how you start new group anyone interrested greeting from ferrie electronics research laboratory delft university technology delft holland
sci.electronics	cleaning electronic equipment article adrian tasman adrian tasman utas edu adrian lewis writes just quick question what standard lab solvents can used clean electronic equipment and components safely not corrode dissolve short out etc the equipment water methanol ccl you don say what kind electronic equipment you mean hard give generic answer there essentially solvent that won things like washing lubricant out switches when needed emergency cleaning job things just used distilled water the key thing remember make sure the gear completely dry before powering again let dry for several days damn sure doubt that methanol has significant advantages over water would very wary ccl not least because dangerous you even not going harm the equipment not only poisonous but believe now known carcinogenic svr resembles high speed collision henry spencer toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.electronics	acceleration sensor article apr walter bellcore com deaddio ski bellcore com michael deaddio writes does anyone know any type acceleration sensor that has electrical output any sort would only have sense acceleration one direction thanx mike michael deaddio mts work hard play hard bell communication research the only problem that deaddio thumper bellcore com playing hard makes working harder mre setra systems nagog park acton schaevitz engineering union ave pennsauken accelerometers are not cheap mainly because the outputs are fairly linear with respect acceleration you don say what the range acceleration you want measure and there are other ways which measure other than using accelerometer additional information would helpful anyone who may respond call you wish
sci.electronics	why circuit boards are green ulan ualberta dale ulan writes kuusama kaarne tut kuusama juha vtt writes not that the question anything important but still curious why that almost all printed circuit boards are green have seen few blue ones but red yellow company logo etc there technical reason could that the marketing geniuses have not tought about yet possible make boards other colors and have for laser light show equipment which offers the circuit boards your choice day glo colors the usual light green color just the natural color fiberglas the dark green blue the solder mask layer and suspect that color dye john nagle
sci.electronics	pressure zone microphones article rjobdinnk crcnis unl edu mpaul unl edu marxhausen paul writes remember back before commercial mikes with the pzm label for pressure zone microphone started showing read article some engineering journal that described the principles involved all the physics aside from practicle standpoint the author said they built prototype with nothing more than small sony lavelier mike laid against large aluminum disk demonstrating presentation audio engineers this was impressive enough that the people present were bugging them about where they could buy them yup not all that difficult anyway want build some use choir mikes wide coverage had good luck using some small electret mike elements got from digi key most these are limited bandwidth peakey units but for buck two more got the ones spec out khz with bit flatter response the panasonic cartridges aren bad but they aren spectacular the distance the mike opening from the flat plate kind critical debating whether mount side which puts the opening shade under from the plate mounting with the opening actually pointing down into the plate small clearance haven dissected unit like you can buy radio shack see how they thoughts don mount the side call crown the company that has the patent the pzm and ask them for information construction and use the things you may have determine the correct spacing emperically with noise source and spectrum analyzer because the design the panasonic cartridges uses tuned cavity front the electret element increase the high frequency response and you are going altering the resistance through the cavity entrance crown has nice book the subject though unfortunately rather short mathematics there jaes article from many years back too still for your application you lot better off buying the cheap radio shack models and using phil rastoczny modifications get clean balanced output phil mods seem get reposted here regular basis scott
sci.electronics	picking cable with aerial article apr mav com toddi mav com todd inch writes article apr wcsub ctstateu edu ritterbus wcsub ctstateu edu writes regarding pointing antenna leaky catv cable wow what concept does anybody want speculate how this non connection would fit into the theft cable services laws seems that unless this case specifically written into the legislation that the cable company would not have leg stand upon court well the catv company the accountable the fcc for how much transmission their cables make fact heard first hand about how the catv company asked inspect the wiring home business find the source leaks heard many their vans have detectors and they keep one eye them they drive down the street the cable leaky enough have usable signal would guess that they probably violation fcc transmission laws england they did require permits operate supposedly the police drove around with detectors looking for the whatever produced receiver that wasn registered guessing the purpose was just something else they could get away with taxing don know the police were are just urban legend actuality the police are still with afraid pound fine goes out the unlicensed users caught
sci.electronics	picking cable with aerial article apr mav com toddi mav com todd inch writes england they did require permits operate supposedly the police drove around with detectors looking for the whatever produced receiver that wasn registered guessing the purpose was just something else they could get away with taxing don know the police were are just urban legend actuality they are real and still pay licence fees receive the detector vans pick the true this tells them what channel you are watching the can also pick the line time base freq and frame rate try with radio near telly picks sharp hum from this they can even watch poor quality though what you have the screen picking radiating junk michael brown csulo csv warwick mjb dcs warwick lost interest bad lost apathy
sci.electronics	microcontroller questions for newcomer does anyone have recommendations whether smart data print spooler digital sampling etc would better implemented with dma chip dedicated microcontroller essentially what trying decide the best way handle moving data from port with automatic handshaking from memory area that will accessible main system processor when not use the smart data which dma microcontroller chip would best use fast cheap and easy obtain would nice but won limit choices only those that fit those characteristics even under would what want but sure there better alternative like microcontroller with onchip eprom essentially want hear about all dma and microcontrollers that are simple interface and will move data from one place another while monitoring few lines jeff white jhwhit ulkyvx louisville edu
sci.electronics	and now serious magazine ferry toth writes for some time been thinking about the possiblity starting group where scientific articles can published perhaps just summaries possible advantages would free disribution fast acceptance online discussion between authers and readers this would possible with one group with moderator for publishing the articles and one perhaps without for discussion the best thing would all the articles would standard format which would make possible print view the documents camera ready perhaps postscript rich text format but how you start new group anyone interrested greeting from ferrie electronics research laboratory delft university technology delft holland yep sounds good suggestion sci electronics art best regards wouter
sci.electronics	how universal are phones these days article rjq hinn dns nmsu edu rpeter nmsu edu peter herman writes lhe apr yang sics lhe sics lars henrik eriksson writes would not suprised the equipment compatible fact new york telephone nynex spend lot money swedish switching equipment recently lars henrik eriksson internet lhe sics you can guess what brand equipment refer lars henrik will pleased know that his name plastered all over phones new mexico state university well they got the contract when nmsu went digital phone system snip not quite correct the company name ericsson with steve
sci.electronics	solvent for duct tape adhesive article mprgate mpr vanderby mprgate mpr david vanderbyl writes lighter fluid butane absolutely non toxic but extreme fire hazard you definately don want splashing this stuff around use little old rag butane colourless flammable gaseous alkane non toxic has some effects when you inhale allegedly which can all down asphyxia imho steve
sci.electronics	acceleration sensor article walter bellcore com deaddio ski bellcore com michael deaddio writes does anyone know any type acceleration sensor that has electrical output any sort would only have sense acceleration one direction thanx mike not sure about this but believe that analog devices norwood makes relatively inexpensive acceleration sensor primarily for use auto air bag systems not know specs anything else but you might give them call find out more info syed zaeem hosain box consulting group san jose szh zcon com
sci.electronics	cad program for electronics article vqinnftu zephyr grace cri srgxnbs grace cri writes what want the cad program draw diagrams dragging elements onto the screen and this the elements needed are diverse vacuum tubes ics case with pins try draftchoice its not windows but its shareware and object oriented use with printgl for high quality output bruce look for spice pspice
sci.electronics	looking for good book pspice article egz acsu buffalo edu ubvmsb buffalo edu neil gandler writes just got copy spice would like know there are any published books the market yet and where could get one would appreciate any help thank you neil gandler isbn
sci.electronics	long distance detection jvannes vms macc wisc edu writes designed and built hardware that would output logic level from tone detector upon detecting microwatt led feet away used motorola mrd biased linearly feedback loop servo out variations sunlight and from lights used lenses allen sullivan would interested knowing more about the sensing hardware what did you use for the detector could you detect the angle location did the system simply respond the presence the transmitter the sensors field view phototransistor with kohm limiter feedback base control operating point expect this really hurts noise figure any comments from phototransistor experts intended use this atop stepper motor provide headings the beacons the plan was have beacons different frequencies each room and tell the what frequency phase lock did not one challenge was that the available stepper had degree steps knowing the headings each beacon would have used the surveyor technique resection determine robot location ain going explain resection over the net given hindsight would digitize the amplified output the self nulling phototransistor circuit and correlate phase quadrature square waves the several expected frequencies extract amplitude each beacon doing this the numerous steps even with degree steps with knowledge the angular response the phototransistor you should able rather more accurately determine the heading each beacon allen sullivan
sci.electronics	how universal are phones these days article apr sam berlin berlin wolfgang diestelkamp writes article hinnsr darkstar ucsc edu hugo cats ucsc edu hugo calendar writes wondering can tote american touch tone phone around with sweden and germany powered and can buy special adapter for that europe the question the general electronics work the same can buy different wall plug and refit sure have but would that the trick two things watch for germany and think the same holds for sweden only some the connections can handle tone dialing make sure the phone can set pulse dialing sweden the the first digit and all other digits are pushed down one position this makes dialing and the process converting numbers interesting task otherwise technically problem connect foreign phone either the german swedish phone system otoh neither you nor would ever try that course illegal the phone uses dtmf dialing which some magic all telecom operators seems have agreed this complete non issue don think there are any switches sweden that can handle dtmf dialing most switches are now digital and thoses that aren have been retrofitted with magic fingers that converts from dtmf pulse dialing thomas real life thomas rnblom email thomas tornblom nexus comm snail mail communicator nexus phone box fax uppsala sweden
sci.electronics	how universal are phones these days article apr utkvx utk edu iturriag utkvx utk edu writes not quite sure about the illegality using regular american phone your home system vaguely remember few years ago when deutsche bundespost split into postdienst postbank and telekom there was some discussion about new regulation know that cordless cellular phones still have approved the telekom but does that hold true for regular phones areacode germany frechen near koeln you can use yes does all the equipment has have that telekom approval number legal what has changed that you can buy the equipment somewhere else pretty sure the same holds true sweden least when read some information about tweo years ago and btw know that most the lines sweden can handle tone dialing just don sure that all can wolfgang diestelkamp berlin wolfgang first gmd
sci.electronics	ultrasonic pest repellers stories advice bunk etc article babb larc sdsu edu babb sciences sdsu edu babb writes ultrasonic pest repelling devices the ones seen use piezoelectric transducers driven khz swept oscillator there evidence that insects are actually repelled these devices can anybody cite gov pubs independent lab studies saw another device that supposedly repels pests altering the electro magnetic field your house wiring suppose they capacitively couple freq signal the wiring and this supposed repel pests how magnestriction the wiring dont think been wondering about this myself the house wiring thing really hokey there doubt that high pressure ultrasound annoying but whom given that these devices have been advertised effective against everything from insects rodents nasty dogs what say that insect repeller won just annnoy dog and give headaches could there that much selectivity frequencies have there been any studies the effects various pressure levels bands and sweep patterns various life forms and how effective could they certainly would not want tell anyone that they are safe from nasty dogs because they were carrying piezoelectric buzzer jeff babb babb sciences sdsu edu babb ucssun sdsu edu programmer sdsu larc kurt geisel snail quaker white pine software inc nashua arpa kurtg drycas club cmu edu bix kgeisel genie geisel air jtw will not pushed filed indexed stamped briefed debriefed numbered the prisoner
sci.electronics	solvent for duct tape adhesive another alternative cover the adhesive with another piece duct tape then remove the tape still doesn work try bqn article stk fok athena uga edu mcovingt aisun uga edu michael covington writes article stephens ngis stephens geod emr dave stephenson writes mcovingt aisun uga edu michael covington writes don know for sure that this will work but you might try mek methyl ethyl keytone worked getting the stickum left over from shelf paper etc you use mek for your sake wear safty glasses better still industrial goggles the small est drop the eye will casue etc please watch those attributions was not that advocated using mek michael covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt uga edu the university georgia phone athens georgia amateur radio tmi
sci.electronics	passive mixer shaffer wendy yale edu wendy shaffer writes trying build mixer for friend mine run several things into single boom box have circuit that uses amp powered either couple batteries using some kind power supply but catalog was looking recently passive mixer for guitar was advertised taht doesn appear use any power all does anyone know what the circuit for this would because then could just adapt for rca jacks and save friend and alot messing with batteries and plugs thanks well the fastest crudest mixer aside from just physically connecting all your inputs together directly run each signal through resistor common output the resistors give some isolation the signal sources aren driving directly into each other taking wild seat the pants guess say that you are mixing high impedance sources like some dynamic mikes electric guitar pickups etc your resistors ought maybe you are mixing line level stuff the outputs walkman such with input output input input paul marxhausen university nebraska lincoln grace happens
sci.electronics	lead acid batteries part article apr ulkyvx louisville edu jhwhit ulkyvx louisville edu writes article apr mprgate mpr vanderby mprgate mpr david vanderbyl writes lots stuff deleted the lead acid secondary cell discharge reaction exothermic glad you not dispute this point you don want the lead storage battery discharge should stored such that its charged state the equilibrium state during winter the ground covered with concrete dirt wood maintains cooler temperature average than the surrounding air the battery the heat capacity air less than that concrete dirt wood heats faster conversely air cools faster too the normal storage procedure for battery leave unheated garage basement the storage surface often cooler than the surrounding air with the battery temperature somewhere between the basement air temperature may the floor temperature and the battery temperature the air temperature higher than the battery temperature the heat reaction not going move the gradient the floor temperature lower than the battery temperature and heat going move the floor incredible heat sink might depend where you live know locally for most the winter the ground and concrete floor within sheds and garages unheated signifacantly warmer than the average air temperature the air does get warmer during the day but during the night the ground and concrete definitely warmer especially when protected the walls from the albedo effect and the nights are longer several hours than the days rest quoted text deleted jeff white jhwhit ulkyvx louisville edu richard dell
sci.electronics	microcontroller questions for newcomer acooney netcom com alan cooney writes discussion motorola intel other words just add your favorite serial level converters mac folks can use the cheaper farther and faster drivers users get suffer with and start using your project think about how much software out there for the mac been interested using microcontrollers imbedded applications for long time but was always under the impression that would need ibm run the debug compile etc software would like use proficient assembly but have never needed except some toying with old evbs motorola doesn seem have any information mac software least their local distributor doesn and the ele department around here has been little help well hope someone can tell that don have buy ibm work with the evaluation boards please send mail andrew andrew reynhout uri edu you remind dog probably get along jane siberry meow
sci.electronics	how universal are phones these days article apr chpc utexas edu michael chpc utexas edu writes does this imply the german tone dialing compatible with the american one know least the british system not supposedly close enough though that american phone will work but modem american has special setting for british standards bzzzzzt wrong answer the tone dialling identical the system the different settings your modem are that uses ccitt tones for data transmission rather than bell bell tones which are used only the usa and canada afaik most people now use least bis this largely irrelevant tony tony kidson pgp key request voice morgan towers the cat has had move now mail order morgan road had take the top tony morgan demon bromley off the machine tny cix compulink england honda dod compuserve com
sci.electronics	moisture repellant was lead acid batteries was bit surprised that the manual for fluke multimeter suggests applying the test lead sockets especially the current range socket the intention prevent the test lead the wrong scocket beeper from going off when there test lead that socket the manual bit vague but think apply the swab then wipe the socket instead spaying the stuff directly from the can speaking said meters compared the against the that had bench for almost years has been five years since the has been calibrated the scale they agree within scale within about the would just about the perfect portable meter had the scale didn feel was worth the extra for second since don use all that much work bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown usa phone wtm uhura neoucom edu wed
sci.electronics	using generated power large sound systems article ekv slack sim com pashdown slack sim com pete ashdown writes bothered the rental shops and audio shops about the problem but most them have precious little experience dealing with generated power suspicion that don really need anything larger than and this could all resolved with transformer some sort nope your problem either being caused excessive voltage drop the long cable from the generator just plain not having enough power would suspect that those amps are going draw lot current short peaks you can try using larger and shorter cables the generator try strapping the amps for service and running mains cables out which will minimize the line drop these don work though you going need bigger generator assume that you using well maintained generators and have watched the voltage output the generator properly you don have coming out the unloaded generator you never get the other end can anyone offer any advice want lot outdoor events this summer and would nice this power problem could resolved easily been looking into buying power pack could tap into junction boxes directly but have idea where start one that would resolve generator problems well would high value recommend you talk with electrician who has experience this sort work and not with the pro audio people also recommend that you don try tap into junction boxes all but hire licensed electrician you don really know what you are doing had clean after two people who nearly killed themselves playing hot boxes and wasn much fun scott
sci.electronics	accelerometer request specified article apr walter bellcore com deaddio ski bellcore com michael deaddio writes basically looking for something operate the ranges accelerations found automobile environment would like the device operate trigger for other systems when the car deceleration reaches threshold value which how assume some seat belt lock mechanisms and air bag deployment systems work open one the airbag control boxes they have inexpensive piezoelectric accelerometers them know that the cars use the setra units the cheapest way get such accelerometer cannibalize existing automotive unit incidentally these things aren very linear but for the application they would fine job scott
sci.electronics	phantoms sony strvx receiver while have gotten years out this digital receiver has been acting verry strange late hope that the following symptoms may help someone diagnose the error know that whatever lithium memory backup had has long died thus unplug won remember the presets has given listening the remote tried changing the remote batteries when try remote function the receiver registers that received green remote light flashes but the right function doesn happen any function all also strange when hit the mute button for example the display panel goes black yikes never seen that before before all the strangeness started the system turned itself off and again itself sometimes won play radio station have kinda twist yes kinda flex the motherboard chasis for get the radio tuning back the aux function always works however inconvenient but not inconvenient enough pay expensive repair fee while not hardware guy wonder something simple surge supressor will quick fix the strange thing that these symptoms come and someone told this unit series has bad voltage amp chip anyway arghh cjk
sci.electronics	solvent for duct tape adhesive mcovingt aisun uga edu michael covington writes don know for sure that this will work but you might try mek methyl ethyl keytone worked getting the stickum left over from shelf paper and available paint stores use carbon gas mask and lots ventilation this stuff really stinks michael covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt uga edu the university georgia phone athens georgia amateur radio tmi you use mek for your sake wear safty glasses better still industrial goggles the small est drop the eye will casue blindness catalysis reaction that non cureavble once starts the results are similar mustard gas contamination note mek peroxide hardner form fibreglass resins dave stephenson geological survey canada ottawa ontario canada internet stephens geod emr
sci.electronics	solvent for duct tape adhesive mahy comments deleted rong wrong butane used butane lighter zippo use petroleum naptha and perfume btw you wanna find some benzene take look aerosol spray gumout carberetor cleaner that stuff will take the adhesive and the paint and melt plastic and this doesn melt plastic least hasn melted the plastic bottle that bought yet maybe better check that bottle its been sittin awhile
sci.electronics	and now serious magazine article apr donau tudelft ferry dutentb tudelft ferry toth writes subject and now serious magazine summary how about starting group where scientific articles can pre publish keywords scientific papers electronic magazine for some time been thinking about the possibility starting group where scientific articles can published perhaps just summaries possible advantages would free distribution fast acceptance online discussion between authors and readers this would possible with one group with moderator for publishing the articles and one perhaps without for discussion think its great but idealistic idea reseacher will first all try publish worthy paper credible professional magazine and not community like usenet which infamous for lots not all junk information the papers that will published here will general low quality also improbable that any credit will given researcher who publish here and sadly that nowadays main reason for publishing usenet great for informal discussions and free exchange ideas keep like that new specialist group just not worth gerrit
sci.electronics	why circuit boards are green fiberglass boards are available several colors sitting right here have unetched board stock that white blue green and yellow respectively also seen black boards solder mask available variety colors too depending the supplier the color helps indentify the material don forget conformal coating don think seen phenolic impregnated paper boards anything other than the familar brown but would not difficult add dye change the color bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown usa phone wtm uhura neoucom edu wed
sci.electronics	how make the disks copy protected continued article sehari iastate edu sehari iastate edu babak sehari writes from sehari iastate edu babak sehari subject how make the disks copy protected continued date wed apr gmt the discussion under the old topic went the wrong direction some people instead discussing the issue itself they decided discuss the non technical part the issue here with limited knowledge about this issue hoping you guys cut the crap and talk about the real technical ways this the methods that aware that are effective are laser hole burning this would leave the disk damaged you format that particular sector the disk you can not write very laser holes are were used prevent someone from making exact copies disk you not want write the damaged disk only read and use the programs hard for crackers damage the disk exactly the same way remember program called copywrite that could copy disk with laser hole think simulates the laser hole after copying the disk the program necessary used conjunction with program called nokey something the program tells you which program use solution gerrit
sci.electronics	info flux gate coils magnetometer article bbuck endor bbuck endor sim com bryce buck writes subject info flux gate coils magnetometer keywords flux gate magnetometer interested finding sources and design information flux gate coils flux gate magnetometers digital compass please respond via mail sorry news reader doesn want reply ling fluxgate magetometer for space application ieee journal spacecraft vol march april oldish but usable background information fluxgate magnetometry electronics world wireless world september great circuit diagrams etc for building electronuc compass gerrit
sci.electronics	lead acid batteries part article luy cbfsb att com rdell cbnewsf att com richard dell writes article apr ulkyvx louisville edu jhwhit ulkyvx louisville edu writes article apr mprgate mpr vanderby mprgate mpr david vanderbyl writes lots stuff deleted the lead acid secondary cell discharge reaction exothermic glad you not dispute this point you don want the lead storage battery discharge should stored such that its charged state the equilibrium state during winter the ground covered with concrete dirt wood maintains cooler temperature average than the surrounding air the battery the heat capacity air less than that concrete dirt wood heats faster conversely air cools faster too the normal storage procedure for battery leave unheated garage basement the storage surface often cooler than the surrounding air with the battery temperature somewhere between the basement air temperature may the floor temperature and the battery temperature the air temperature higher than the battery temperature the heat reaction not going move the gradient the floor temperature lower than the battery temperature and heat going move the floor incredible heat sink might depend where you live know locally for most the winter the ground and concrete floor within sheds and garages unheated signifacantly warmer than the average air temperature the air does get warmer during the day but during the night the ground and concrete definitely warmer especially when protected the walls from the albedo effect and the nights are longer several hours than the days rest quoted text deleted jeff white jhwhit ulkyvx louisville edu richard dell sorry about following own article but wanted continue that what might being missed here that the important thing might not temperature differences per but the action heat sinking the battery perhap someone could conduct experiment taking two identical lead acid batteries placing both wooden shelves but putting one them water bath designed act heat sink this would eliminate the concrete floor effect and keep both batteries the same ambient temperature think the argument over temperatures not pertinent but the one over heat conductance and removing the exothermic heat may have some validity richard dell
sci.med	candida yeast bloom fact fiction article hsdndev harvard edu rind enterprise bih harvard edu david rind writes article apr vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes poster for being treated liscenced physician for disease that did not exist calling this physician quack was reprehensible steve and see that you and some the others are doing here well you believe that any quacks exist how about quack diagnoses being licensed physician enough guarantee that someone not quack just that even licensed physician quack other people shouldn say can you give example commonly diagnosed ailment that you think quack diagnosis have gotten the point civilization where longer need worry about unscrupulous healers taking advantage people david rind don like the term quack being applied licensed physician david questionable conduct more appropriately called unethical opinion give you some examples prescribing controlled substances patients with demonstrated need other than drug addition for the medication prescribing thyroid preps for patients with normal thyroid function for the purpose quick weight loss using laetril treat cancer patients when such treatment has been shown ineffective and dangerous cyanide release the nci these are errors commission that competently trained physicians should not committ but sometimes there are also errors omission some which result malpractice suits don think that using anti fungal agents try relieve discomfort patient who you suspect may having problem with candida another fungal growth error commission omission healers have had long history trying relieve human suffering some have stuck standard approved procedures others have been willing try any reasonable treatment there chance that will help the patient the key has tied the healer oath will harm but you know david that very few treatments involve risk the patient the job the physician very difficult one when risk versus benefit has weighed each physician deals with this risk benefit paradox little differently some are very conservative while others are more agressive agressive approach may more costly the patient and carry more risk but long the motive improving the patient health and not attempt rake lots money through some the schemes that have been uncovered the medicare fraud cases don see the need label these healers quacks even unethical what reserve the term quack for pseudo medical professionals these people lurk the fringes the health care system waiting for the frustrated patient fall into their lair some these individuals are really doing pretty good job providing alternative medicine but many lack any formal training and are the business simply make few fast bucks while patient can reasonably assured getting competent care when liscenced physician consulted this alternative care area really buyer beware arena you are lucky you may find someone who can help you you are unlucky you can loose lot money and develop severe disease because the inability these pseudo medical professional diagnose disease which the fortay the liscened physicians hope that this clears things david marty
sci.med	help reflux esophagitis writing this find out the following any information surgery prevent reflux esophagitis the name doctor who specialize such surgery information reflux esophagitis which leads cancer boyfriend age and otherwise good health was diagnosed with reflux esophagitis and hiatal hernia about years ago that time saw gastroenterologist and has tried acid controllers mylanta tagamet well restricted diet and raising the head his bed these treatments were not effective and because the damage was worsening opted for surgical repair months ago was told there were two repair techniques that could fix the problem nissen wrap and hill repair opted for the hill repair recovered very well from the surgery itself but the pain had originally worse and addition now has trouble swallowing including saliva the doctor now wants endoscopy and has also informed him that biopsy might necessary has pre cancerous condition which called barrett syndrome can avoid having reflux will necessarily get cancer basically anyone has any information what should now appreciate thanks pat lydon netmanage inc pat netmanage com
sci.med	diet for crohn ibd article uabdpo dpo uab edu spam dom uab edu uabdpo dpo uab edu gila stephen holland writes article apr midway uchicago edu bmdelane quads uchicago edu brian manning delaney wrote one thing that haven seen this thread discussion the relation between ibd inflammation and the profile ingested fatty acids fas even write letter the editor good point the way the abbreviation epa not general use not know what fatty acid you are speaking about sorry mean eicosapentaenoic acid and brian there physician named stephen hanauer there who recognized expert the treatment ibd you might give him call coincidentaly just yesterday was finally referred from the clinic hanauer seeing him may report what says about this question the treatment ibd you call please say hello him from was looking for position and perhaps still will brian delaney
sci.med	cholistasis fat free diet pregnancy heart access digex com writes just returned from visit with gyn and have few concerns that maybe all can help with been seeing her every weeks for the past few months week and during the last visits gained pounds every weeks she said this was unacceptable over any week period stands thus far gained pounds also she says that though weeks the baby size weeks think she mentioned inches for the top the fundus when was weeks the baby size was weeks must also add that had operation few years ago for endometriosis and had problems with endometriosis but apparently causing pain pelvic region during the pregnancy and have very difficult time moving and the doc has recommended not walk move unless have have little handicapped sticker for when need out anyway that the situation the other that almost from the beginning pregnancy was getting sick throwing about times day and mostly was bile that was being eliminated told her about this know this because wasn eating very much due the nausea and could see the results well now only get sick about once every weeks and still bile related but addition had begun feel movement near upper right abdomen just below the right breast usually when was lying right side began get worse though because started hurt when lay right side and then hurt matter what position was next noticed that when ate greasy fatty foods felt like entire abdomen had turned stone and the pain the area got worse however ate sauerkraut vinegar something cut the fat wasn much problem the doctor says have cholistatis and that should avoid fatty foods this makes sense and because was already aware what seemed this cause and effect relationship have been avoiding these foods own but still able eat foods with ricotta cheese for instance and other low fat foods but doc wants non fat diet this means meat except fish and chicken skin this anyway nuts fried food cheese etc allowed skim milk she said should avoid anything sweet bananas also must only have one serving something high carbohydrates day potatoes pasta rice she said can even cook vegetables little bit oil and that should eat vegetables raw steamed concerned because understand you need have some fat your diet help the digestive process and not taking fat she expecting the baby will take from stores and why this restriction carbohydrates she concerned about fat not clear how much her recommendation based weight gain and how much cholistatis which can seem find any information she originally said that should only gain pounds during the entire pregnancy since was about lbs overweight when started but sister gained lbs during her pregnancy and she taken all off and hasn had any problems she also asked any members family were obese which none them are anyway think she overly concerned about weight gain and feel like being punished severe diet she did want see again one week think she the diet may temporary for that one week what want know how reasonable this non fat diet would understand she had said low fat diet since trying that anyway even she said really low fat diet think she assumes must eating high fat diet but really that because the endometriosis and the operation not able use the energy from the food eat any opinions info and experiences will appreciated truly going stark raving mad trying meet this new strict diet because fruits and vegetables through system few minutes and end having eat constantly thus far don find any foods satisfying thanks for one week she probably wants see how you react the diet changes anything you can live the diet but you need your calories where before you had pat butter now you need medium apple probably microwave cooked smaller meals but more them not terrific amounts meat hard digest anyway for comfort and make the carbohydrate meal last longer eat pasta rice which give their calories slowly rather than bread corn maybe smaller meals you may getting less room the stomach area the baby still coming starting push rub under your ribs how tight are your clothes you shouldn wearing any clothing that compresses your middle sure not suck your stomach when sitting again will put pressure the digestive tract try laying your sides back and stay reclining positions for the many hours you are being inactive easier your legs circulation well you might try letting the baby turn least not forced under the ribs during the last months when you are shortwaisted easy for that baby end right under the diaphram especially you have tight abdominal muscles had second one over again think have tried loosen since didn turn sideways until late and the relief was enormous maybe this doctor does have thing about weight gain pregnancy maybe she just nags all her patients this way especially she young but this gallbladder whatever problem that might coming something avoided possible nausea etc can vary from person person and with each pregnancy first pregnancy was miserable during the second had very little trouble some articles have said that women with nausea had statistically better chance carrying their baby grain salt here good luck jackie
sci.med	candida yeast bloom fact fiction rind enterprise bih harvard edu david rind writes article apr vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes poster for being treated liscenced physician for disease that did not exist calling this physician quack was reprehensible steve and see that you and some the others are doing here well you believe that any quacks exist how about quack diagnoses being licensed physician enough guarantee that someone not quack just that even licensed physician quack other people shouldn say can you give example commonly diagnosed ailment that you think quack diagnosis have gotten the point civilization where longer need worry about unscrupulous healers taking advantage people david rind sure there are quacks there are quacks who don treat and quacks who treat one that refuse diagnose and ones that diagnose improperly there are lucky quacks and unlucky quacks smart quacks and dumb ones there are people ahead their time with unprobable unproven theories and rationals there are ill reasoned absurd theorists sometimes hard tell who who reading book ancient jokes seems that doctors called other doctors quacks babylon arguments abound when there aren any firm answers plenty illnesses aren can diagnosed treated but think better argue against the theory was originally done with postings candida month ago stating the facts usually works better than simply asserting opinion about someone competency and you can convince everybody sometimes correct diagnosis takes years for people they don run into doctor who recognizes the disease they haven developed something recognizable yet they have something that one going recognize because hasn been described yet sometimes they get cure sometimes the illness wears out sometimes they stumble improper diagnosis with the right treatment sometimes they find incurable there profit patient accepting hopeless attitude about illness unless rock solid diagnosis terminal disease more like that person will find cure they keep looking jackie
sci.med	quack quack was candida yeast bloom fact fiction article noringc netcom com noring netcom com jon noring writes article rind enterprise bih harvard edu david rind writes you believe that any quacks exist how about quack diagnoses being licensed physician enough guarantee that someone not quack just that even licensed physician quack other people shouldn say would say there are also significant numbers unscrupulous doctors the squeaky clean traditional crew cut talk the ama before starting any treatment kind umm weren you the one objecting someone who licensed physician being called quack just that being licensed physician good defense against charges quackery when the physician agrees with your system beliefs lately seen the word quack bandied about recklessly actually almost never use the term quack when discuss systemic yeast syndrome however always point out that mainstream medicine views this quack diagnosis and agree with that characterization let put another way make point clear quack nebulous word lacking any precision really bet virtually everyone reading these posts understands what steve dyer gordon banks and implying when have talked about systemic yeast syndrome quack diagnosis would you prefer the word charlatan don happen think that all quacks are charlatans since suspect that some believe the diseases they are diagnosing may suggest seriously that the doctors and wanna doctors the net who refuse have open mind alternative treatments and theories such the yeast theory should create your own moderated group why there some reason why you feel that shouldn pointed out sci med that there convincing empirical evidence support the existence systemic yeast syndrome david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
sci.med	need radiologist read ultrasound dougb comm mot com doug bank writes wife gyn has ultrasound machine her office when her next visit wife asked another doctor the office they read the ultrasounds themselves they had radiologist read the pictures the doctor very vehemently insisted that they were qualified read the ultrasound and radiologists were not wife concerned about this she saw show couple months back something like dateline nbc etc where expert fetal ultrasounds radiologist was showing all the different deffects that could detected using the ultrasound should wife concerned should take the pictures radiologist for second opinion and where would find such expert chicago don really have any special medical reason concerned but radiologist will able see things the gyn can then don see why shouldn use one any thoughts far can see your obstetrition has ultrasound his rooms and expirienced its use and interpretation should just capable reading any radiologist all doctors are qualified read rays scans etc just that radiologist does nothing else and thus only better reading them because all this time spent doing this skill reading rays etc just comes from plenty practice your obstetrition reads heaps obstetric ultrasounds should able pick any abnormalities that can demonstrated this technique paul zikzak public access unix melbourne australia
sci.med	quack quack was candida yeast bloom fact fiction article rag hsdndev harvard edu rind enterprise bih harvard edu david rind writes article noringc netcom com noring netcom com jon noring writes may suggest seriously that the doctors and wanna doctors the net who refuse have open mind alternative treatments and theories such the yeast theory should create your own moderated group why there some reason why you feel that shouldn pointed out sci med that there convincing empirical evidence support the existence systemic yeast syndrome don know the first thing about yeast infections but scientist scientist would take your statement convincing empirical evidence support the existence systemic yeast syndrome tell you anything except absence data the question noring has pointed out the catch that the crazy theory were true you probably couldn find any direct evidence that you couldn observe those yeastie beasties with present methods even they were there noring and the fellow from oklahoma sorry forgot your name have also suggested one set anecdotal evidence favor based their personal experiences namely that when people with certain conditions are given anti fungals many them appear get better you have any evidence against the hypothesis for example controlled double blind studies showing that the anti fungals don any better than sugar water then let hear you don then what have anecdotal and uncontrolled evidence one side and abject disbelief the other which case please there point yelling back and forth each other any longer since neither side has any convincing evidence either positive negative and understand that your abject disbelief based the existence people who may get famous make money applying the diagnosis everything sight making wild claims with evidence and always refusing controlled studies but that has absolutely bearing the apparently sincere experiences the people the net observing anti fungals working themselves and other people certain specific cases there are also quacks who sell oral superoxide dismutase spite the fact that completely broken down the guts but this doesn change the genuine scientific knowledge about the role superoxide dismutase fighting oxidative damage same thing just cause there are candida quacks that doesn establish evidence against the candida hypothesis there some other reason besides the quacks only anecdotal think could true then that what has considered that what the net people have been talking about but again there point arguing about there anecdotal evidence and there convincing evidence and there are also some candida quacks out there hope everyone can agree all that thus appears the main question now whether the proponents can marshall enough anecdotal evidence convincing and documented enough manner make good case for carrying out good controlled double blind study antifungals else forget convincing anybody else carry out the test just carry out themselves and also whether they can adequately define the patient population symptoms which such study should carried out provide fair test the hypothesis ken
sci.med	eye dominance bbenowit telesciences com barry benowitz writes article world std com rsilver world std com richard silver writes there right eye dominance eyedness there overall right handedness the population mean most people require less lens corrections for the one eye than the other what kinds percentages can attached this thanks yes there such thing eye dominance although not sure this dominance refers perscription strength recall you selectively close your dominant eye you will percieve that the image shifts this will not happen you close your other eye believe that which eye dominant related handedness but can recall the relation the moment barry benowitz read great book about eye dominance several years ago there one book out there least one there were several types eye dominance where person looks their memory usually indicates type eye dominanc another type related coordination activities like hitting ball another for reading didn read one that discussed prescription strength although people with bad vision near far sighted would tend depend the stronger eye jackie
sci.med	sweet syndrome brother affine has recently been diagnosed with sweet syndrome also called steroid resistant sweet syndrome this syndrome started after she had had iodine treatment for hyperthyroidism she been reluctant have treatment for the hyperthyroidism for many years and apparently started show exaustion from understand that she may still testing high thyroid level but she isn being treated endocrinologist her previous endocrinologist bowed out when she entered the hospital she entered the hospital because the sweet syndrome symptoms skin lesions looked through the last two years medline and didn find abstract mentioning correlation between thyroid and sweets checked handbook which said that sweet was associated with leukemia like reccomndation for experts who are new york city who travel new york city for the sweets and perhaps for the endocrinology any information that might help apparently there hasn been much improvement her condition over the past several months jackie
sci.med	from srebrenica doctoring hell srebrenica doctor recounts town living hell laura pitter tuzla bosnia reuter neret mujanovic was pathologist when trekked through the mountains the besieged muslim town srebrenica last august but after treating mangled victims bosnia bloody war considers himself surgeon now surgeon with great experience although have license practice but operate person and lives normally that the greatest license surgeon could have evacuated the this week his home town tuzla the muslim physician gave eyewitness medical assessment the horrors the year long serb siege srebrenica and the suffering the thousands trapped there lived through hell together with the people srebrenica all those who lived through this are the greatest heroes that humanity can produce told reporters mujanovic had practiced for two months assistant local hospital tuzla but before going srebrenica had never performed surgical operation his own now says has performed major surgery times relying books for guidance amputating arms and legs times usually without anesthetic delivering babies and performing four cesarean sections worked hour days slept the hospital for the first weeks after his arrival last aug and treated patients arrived after making the trek over mountains foot from tuzla miles northwest srebrenica about other people carried supplies and soldiers guided and protected him through guerrilla terrain said his worst memory was days ago when seven serb shells landed within one minute area half the size football field killing people immediately and wounding half the dead were women and children the people had come out for rare day sunshine and the children were playing soccer there was warning the blood flowed like river the street said there were pieces women all around and you could not piece them together one woman holding her two children her hands was lying with them the ground dead they had heads before mujanovic arrived with his supplies conditions were deplorable said many deaths could have been prevented had the hospital had surgical tools facilities and medicine the six general practitioners who had been operating before arrived had even less surgical experience than did they didn know the basic principles for amputating limbs once arrived the situation improved said but mid september had run out supplies bandages were washed and boiled five times sometimes they were falling apart hands said doctors had anesthetic and could not give patients alcohol numb the pain because increased bleeding people were completely conscious during amputations and stomach operations said blood transfusions were impossible because they had facilities test blood types felt destroyed psychologically mujanovic said the situation improved after dec when convoy arrived from the belgian medical group medecins sans frontieres but mujanovic said the military predicament worsened mid december after bosnian serbs began major offensive the region every day had air strikes and shellings then the hunger set between mid december and mid march when planes began air dropping food between and people were dying every day from complications associated with malnutrition said know for sure that the air drop operation saved the people from massive death hunger and starvation said according mujanovic around people died srebrenica them children during year siege mujanovic plans return srebrenica three weeks after visiting his wife who ill tuzla they say hero said there were thousands people standing the sides the road crying and waving when left and cried too sharon machlis gartenberg framingham usa mail sharon world std com
sci.med	great post was candida bloom article noringc ygw netcom com noring netcom com jon noring writes course they are working the theory that candida overbloom with penetration into mucus membrane tissue with associated mild inflammatory response can and does occur large number people you reject this yeast hypothesis then guess you view this research one more wasteful and quixotic endeavor stay tuned not have enough medical expertise have much opinion one way another hidden candida infections can understand the skepticism those who see this associated with various general kinds symptoms while there lack solid demonstration that this happens and causes such general symptoms understand this skepticism one only needs know past failures that shared these characteristics with the notion hidden candida infection there have been quite few and the proponents all thought that the skeptics were overly skeptical the other hand happy read that some people are sufficiently interested this possibility spurred suggestive clinical experience research further the doubters may surprised has happened before realize that admitting ignorance the face ignorance may not endear those who are sure they know one way another and indeed perhaps some them know the one who currently ignorant but find this the most honest route and happy with russell
sci.med	candida yeast bloom fact fiction article jon noring writes article rind enterprise bih harvard edu david rind writes you believe that any quacks exist how about quack diagnoses true focus the medical profession the ama and the boards should focus these quacks instead devoting unbelievable energy search and destroy missions pull the licenses those doctors who are trying non traditional not fully accepted treatments for their desperate patients that traditional accepted medicine cannot help prescribe itraconazole for patient sinusitis neither the ama fda state licensing board nor abfp will knocking door ask why this specious argument their backs and pee pee themselves obedience what they teach you medical school how throw your authority around among other things how evaluate new theories and treatments let put another way make point clear quack nebulous word lacking any precision its sole use obfuscate the issues hand funny thought meant one who fraudulently misrepresents his ability and experience the diagnosis and treatment disease the effects achieved the treatment offers dorland certainly more precision than conveyed chronic yeast the indiscriminate use this word sure sign incompetency and coming from any medical doctor wanna where competency expected real scary the inability discriminate between fraudulent erroneous representations far more frightening fraud promote treatment where the evidence for either lacking against and the quacksalver knows error the honest practitioner doesn know failure speak out against either bespeaks incompetency may suggest seriously that the doctors and wanna doctors the net who refuse have open mind alternative treatments and theories such the yeast theory should create your own moderated group may reply seriously that the practitioners and proponents non scientific medicine have left their minds open that the parts their brains that critical evaluation have fallen out they should learn edit their newsgroup headers conform the existing hierarchy and divisions john angelo gnassi lab computer science jgnassi hstbme mit edu massachusetts general hospital eternal student boston massachusetts usa the earth spanned connected network walt whitman
sci.med	frequent nosebleeds previous article mcovingt aisun uga edu michael covington says article seastar seashell bebmza sru chvpkh chevron com beverly zalan writes year son plagued lots vaseline his nose each night seems keep under control but let him get bopped there and recur for days also allergies colds dry air all seem contribute but again the vaseline ointment neosporin all seem keep them from recurring you can get you might want try canadian over the counter product called secaris which water soluble gel compared vaseline other greasy ointments secaris seems more compatible with the moisture that already there secaris reasonably inexpensive cdn for tube and indeed over the counter medication why does not appear available the don know manufactured montreal nasal lubricant and intended help nosebleeds that result from dry mucous membranes from some the replies original posting evident that some people not secrete enough mucous keep their nose lining protected from environmental influences dry air but had responses from anyone with experience with rutin there another newsgroup that might have specifics herbal remedies but thanks all those who did reply with their experiences robert allison
sci.med	net address for who looking for the email address the world health organization particular the address for the department nursing the chief scientist for nursing miriam hirschfeld the snail mail address have the following world health organization avenue appia geneva switzerland please respond directly thank you for your assistance elg elizabeth glaser elg silver lcs mit edu
sci.med	request gyro souvlaki sauce article apr donner sandiego ncr com davel davelpcsandiego ncr com dave lord writes article pcn terminator itd umich edu donald mackie donald mackie med umich edu writes article apr locus com michael trofimoff tron fafnir locus com writes would anyone out there net land happen have authentic sure fire way making this great sauce that used adorn gyro and souvlaki not sure the exact recipe but sure acidophilus one the major ingredients plain yoghurt with grated cucumber and coriander other spices are sometimes used some people use half yoghurt and half mayonaise the kind have made used lite sour cream instead yogurt may not good for you but prefer the taste few small bits cuke addition the grated cuke may also finish the sauce off nicely trh mutrh uxa ecn bgu edu
sci.med	quack quack was candida yeast bloom fact fiction ken isis cns caltech edu writes don know the first thing about yeast infections but scientist scientist would take your statement convincing empirical evidence support the existence systemic yeast syndrome tell you anything except absence data the question the burden proof rests upon those who claim the existence this syndrome date these claims are unsubstantiated any available data hopefully scientist you would take issue with anyone overstating their conclusions based upon their data beasties with present methods even they were there noring and the fellow from oklahoma sorry forgot your name have also suggested one set anecdotal evidence favor based their personal experiences namely that when people with certain conditions are given anti fungals many them appear get better gee have many interesting and enlightening anecdotes about myself friends and family but the practice medicine expect and demand more rigorous rationales for basing therapy than aunt susie brother law anecdotal evidence may provide inspiration for hypothesis but rarely proves anything positive sense and unlike mathematics boolean logic rarely applies directly medical issues and evidence exceptions does not usually disprove but rather modifies current concepts disease you have any evidence against the hypothesis for example controlled double blind studies showing that the anti fungals don any better than sugar water then let hear you don then what have anecdotal and uncontrolled evidence one side and abject disbelief the other which case please there point yelling back and forth each other any longer since neither side has any convincing evidence either positive negative would characterize not abject disbelief but rather scientific outrage over vastly overstated conclusions appears the main question now whether the proponents can marshall enough anecdotal evidence convincing and documented enough manner make good case for carrying out good controlled double blind study antifungals else forget convincing anybody else carry out the test just carry out themselves and also whether they can adequately define the patient population symptoms which such study should carried out provide fair test the hypothesis have problem with such approach but this not what happening the trenches this diagnosis bob schmieg
sci.med	adenocarcinoma the lungs putting aside our substantial differences like ask the knowledgeable ones give feedback this let explain one family members last week was discovered have brain tumor after having some difficulties with walking and writing she years old otherwise she fine health the discovery was made via cat scans she then had mri scans done where small cancerous areas were discovered her lungs biopsies showed adenocarcinoma one spot the lungs and another the pneumothorax the oncologists believe the cancer started the lungs and caused the brain tumor she smoked until four years ago anyway like feedback what adenocarcinoma how different from other cancers how she will treated luckily the tumor right below the skull and can easily removed and statistically what are the chances for full remission recovery thanks jon noring charter member infj club you dying know what infj means brave mail send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international fred gourmet chocolate carlton place phone chips world best livermore mail who are you read alt psychology personality that where the action
sci.med	prk referral canada could some please refer someone who can perform prk photo refractive keratostomy canada preferably eastern portion looked the yellow pages with little success and someone has had good bad for that matter experience that would especially helpful you could please let know thanks kurt hozak hozak lab wmich edu preferred address
sci.med	cholistasis fat free diet pregnancy aldridge netcom com jacquelin aldridge writes decided come back and amend this quotes and has added comments heart access digex com writes started hurt when lay right side and then hurt matter what position was next noticed that when ate greasy fatty foods felt like entire abdomen had turned stone and the pain the area got worse however ate sauerkraut vinegar something cut the fat wasn much problem the doctor says have cholistatis and that should avoid fatty foods this makes sense and because was already aware what seemed this cause and effect relationship have been avoiding these foods own but still able eat foods with ricotta cheese for instance and other low fat foods but doc wants non fat diet this means meat except fish and chicken skin this anyway nuts fried food cheese etc allowed skim milk she said should avoid anything sweet bananas also must only have one serving something high carbohydrates day potatoes pasta rice she said can even cook vegetables little bit oil and that should eat vegetables raw steamed concerned because understand you need have some fat your diet help the digestive process and for one week she probably wants see how you react the diet changes anything you can live the diet but you need your non fat calories where before you had pat butter now you need medium apple probably microwave cooked smaller meals but more them not terrific amounts meat hard digest anyway first even fish fowl and breads have fat second the body will make fat out carbohydrates needs them third your body like most peoples wasn bred live high fat modern diet you read texts about ancient and primative people you will read about the luxury eating fat how people enjoyed this was because was rare even cows didn put out nearly the amount butterfat milk that they now for comfort and make the carbohydrate meal last longer eat pasta rice which give their calories slowly rather than bread corn maybe smaller meals you may getting less room the stomach area the baby still coming starting push rub under your ribs how tight are your clothes you shouldn wearing any clothing that compresses your middle sure not suck your stomach when sitting again will put pressure the digestive tract try laying your sides back and stay reclining positions for the many hours you are being inactive easier your legs circulation well you might try letting the baby turn least not forced under the ribs during the last months when you are shortwaisted easy for that baby end right under the diaphram especially you have tight abdominal muscles had second one over again think have tried loosen since didn turn sideways until late and the relief was enormous maybe this doctor does have thing about weight gain pregnancy maybe she just nags all her patients this way especially she young but this gallbladder whatever problem that might coming something avoided possible you don want become ill with while you are pregnant you are lucky you can work getting rid after the baby said that doctors have less gallbadder surgery than the rest the population good part that they are willing the dieting etc that helps them avoid surgery also don think the surgery lets person back eating high fat diet nausea etc can vary from person person and with each pregnancy first pregnancy was miserable during the second had very little trouble some articles have said that women with nausea had statistically better chance carrying their baby grain salt here good luck jackie
sci.med	msg sensitivity superstition these are last words the subject from lundby rtsg mot com walter lundby writes person who very sensitive msg and whose wife and kids are too want know why the food industry wants put msg food some people think enhances the flavor personally don think helps the taste makes sick try avoid from dyer spdcc com steve dyer writes sez you such effect humans has not been demonstrated any controlled studies infant mice and other models are useful far they but they not relevant the matter hand which not say that favor its use things like baby food patently ridiculous use the additive but have reason believe that msg the diet effects humans adversely well know that msg effects adversely maybe not permanently but least temporarily enough that like try avoid the stuff from kiran village com kiran wagle writes you don like additives then for godsake get off the net and learn cook from scratch sheesh excuse why can people learn cook from scratch the net gotten lots recipes off the net that don use additives you like additives then get off the net and your local supermarket buy lots packaged foods and you get off the net cover the fact that the recipes are not very good the food poor quality yes and you buy says something about your taste don and what happens when the companies forced submit your silly notions out business because nobody wants buy their overpriced bad food removing preservatives directly raises food costs reducing shelf life hey pay hard earned dollars buy food that costs more but does not have preservatives choose speak with pocketbook many ways from kiran village com kiran wagle you have good point msg commonly used soups bottled sauces seasoning mixtures and the coating barbecue potato chips nacho cheese doritos breading for many frozen fried foods like fish and chicken etc naseum msg really the problem should call this barbecue potato chip syndrome maybe diner syndrome the and other natural flavorings syndrome been few years since bought anything labelled with and other natural flavorings from kiran village com kiran wagle the reaction came the time the msg was the food that was the only difference same restaurant same ingredients how you know this order demonstrate your claim you would have had supervise the preparation both occasions perhaps they used msg both times and lied about perhaps once they used something that had begun spoil and produced some bizarre toxin that you allergic well had had similar reactions many times that was when really started watching carefully reaction doritos hey guess what there reaction lawry season salt guess what there give you hint had enough problems with many many many different products with msg that figured out one thing unless plan getting sick won eat the stuff without seldane and did ever learn read labels please note that not saying you are making just trying point out that the situation not always simple might seem which was why started checking every time got sick and every time got sick msg was somehow involved one the food products and consider there were other similar ingredients knowledge might not please medical researcher but pleased own personal physician enough for him give allergy medicine and most importantly enough proof for avoid and enough proof that incredibly frugal fiance didn flinch when literally threw out gave away all the food products his pantry that had msg and always flinches when there waste but was simple explanation won eat this stuff won cook with this stuff can either throw out give away from pattee ucsu colorado edu donna pattee guess was that the spice mix the fries contained msg probably lawry seasoning salt love the way that tastes not saying never consume anything with msg noticed that have certain tolerance level like small bag bbq chips once month not problem but that same bag chips will bother also had chicken bouillon yesterday and lunch one the chinese restaurants the day before from kelley healthy uwaterloo catherine kelley all that needed now that final step double blind study done humans there isn even ethical question about possible harm this widely used and approved food additive but some say that only the population has problem with msg some say more like but let say that how many people would have tested that would have problem also know have problem with and wouldn volunteer for test like thanks guys but don want get sick also sure that most people probably have varying degrees sensitivities different times have cold much more susceptible the reaction than when healthy proven today when stuffy but for some silly reason still gave and decided have the bbq chips from kiran village com kiran wagle because too many you generic rhetorical you not you cathy around calling this chinese restaurant syndrome thus suggesting the people you complain that you experience this only from chinese food msg prevalent lot more things than chinese food thats why suggested calling this diner syndrome cathy doesn haven saved all postings but never called chinese restaurant syndrome and never stated got only from chinese food just thought would easiest conduct personal test chinese take out place that knew would hold not hold the msg can call whoever makes doritos and ask them make one back chips without msg the other hand one complains about potatoes from mix restaurant spice mixes going believe them and anyone says they got msg sick after eating too many barbecue potato chips party really going believe them well believe mentioned that earlier post let see you wrote this message date apr but date apr gmt wrote has anyone had msg reaction from something other than chinese restaurant lots times that why was hard for pin down would probably have been easier only have the reaction certain type restaurant but had the reaction chinese restaurants and greek restaurants and italian restaurants and steak places can tell you when steak joint uses accent tenderize their meat and just case anyone thinks prejudice against either chinese food asian people not going home cook some chinese food for the guy marrying next week incidentally his last name stop with the flame mail why does woman work ten years change man habits and then complain that not the man she married barbra streisand mary allison mary uicsl csl uiuc edu urbana illinois
sci.med	annual inguinal hernia repair last year was totally surprised when annual physical disclosed inguinal hernia couldn remember doing anything that would have caused that hadn been lifting more than other people and fact probably somewhat less eventually the thing became more painful and had the repair operation this year developed pain the other side this turned out another inguinal hernia back the hospital monday for another fun operation don know anything doing cause this happen years old and don think old enough for things start falling apart like this the surgeon who doing the operation seems suspect congenital weakness but why did suddenly appear when was and not really active was when was younger does anyone know how prevent hernia other than not lifting anything rare that lift more than month old sack full groceries and you may have noticed that your typical grocery sack fairly small these days there some sort exercise that will reduce the risk course wife thinks from sitting for long periods time the computer reading news porter clark jpc avdms msfc nasa gov jpc gaia msfc nasa gov nasa msfc flight data systems branch
sci.med	calcium deposits heart valve friend year old man has calcium deposits one his heart valves what causes this happen and what can done about john greze execnet com
sci.med	density the skull bone could someone tell what the density skull bone direct reference that contains this info would appreciate very much thanks vinay vinay rao vrao nyx edu
sci.med	krillean photography holfeltz lstc stortek com writes you know all ready the pattern the bioplasmic energy field that significant didn already know that never even heard bioplasmic energy field care explain been few years since last fields class may have forgotten maybe skipped that day anyway ross perot said all ears well eyes this case grant edwards yow something violent rosemount inc going happen garbage can grante aquarius rosemount com
sci.med	perception doctors and health care the following article columnist mike royko his humorous commentary some the public perception doctors and their salaries hope some you will find amusing did reprinted permission there cure for stupidity poll doctors salaries mike royko tribune media services stupidity scale recent poll about doctors earnings right there almost scored perfect brain dead was commissioned some whiny consumers group called families usa the poll tells that the majority americans believe that doctors make too much money the pollsters also asked what fair income would for physicians those polled said about year would how generous how sporting how stupid why this poll stupid because based resentment and envy two emotions that ran hot during the political campaign and are still simmering you could conduct the same kind poll about any group that earns plus and get the same results since the majority americans don make those bucks they assume that those who are stealing from them maybe the berlin wall came down but don kid yourself karl marx lives also stupid because didn ask key questions such you know how much education and training takes become physician those polled said they didn know then they should have been disqualified they gave the wrong answers they should have been dropped what good are their views how much doctor should earn they don know what takes become doctor maybe question should have been phrased this way how much should person earn she must get excellent grades and fine educational foundation high school order accepted good college and spend four years taking courses heavy math physics chemistry and other lab work and maintain average better and spend four more years grinding study medical school with the third and fourth years clinical training working hours week and spend another year low pay hard work intern and put another three years post graduate training depending your specialty and maybe wind debt after medical school and then work average hours week with many family doctors putting hours more until they retire fall over you have probably guessed now have considerably more respect for doctors than does the law firm clinton and clinton and all the lawyers and insurance executives they have called together remake america health care based what doctors contribute society they are far more useful than the power happy ego tripping program spewing social tinkerers who will probably give medical plan that health what clinton first budget frugality but propaganda works and the stupid poll indicates many americans wrongly believe that profiteering doctors are the major cause high medical costs course doctors are well compensated they should americans now live longer than ever but who responsible for our longevity lawyers congress the guy flipping burgers mcdonald and the doctors prolong our lives despite our having become nation self indulgent lard butted gaping couch cabbages that not something you heard president clinton super spouse talk about during the campaign since but instead trying turn the medical profession into villain they might have been more honest they had said let talk about medical care and one the biggest problems have that problem you fellow american yes you eating too much and eating the wrong foods many you guzzling too much hooch still puffing away pack getting your daily exercise lumbering from the fridge the microwave the couch doing dope and bringing crack babies into the world filling the big city emergency rooms with gunshot victims engaging unsafe sex and catching deadly disease while blaming the world for not finding instant cure you and your habits not the doctors are the single biggest health problem this country anything amazing that the docs keep you alive long they fact don understand how they can stand looking your blubbery bods all day your president call upon you stop whining and start living cleanly now must get myself triple cheesy greasy with double fries say not but for those who truly believe that doctors are overpaid there another solution don use them that right you don feel well then try one those spine poppers needle twirlers have rev bubba lay his hands upon your head and declare you fit there the yourself approach you have chest pains then sit front mirror make slit here slit there and pop couple valves you going have kid why throw your money that overpaid sawbones can buy better car and bigger house than you will ever have while paying more taxes and malpractice insurance than you will ever earn just have the kid the old fashioned way squat and and survives you can the library and find book how give its shots the way has anyone ever done poll how much pollsters should earn royko pulitzer prize winning columnist for tribune media services vinay rao vrao nyx edu
sci.med	msg sensitivity superstition article apr llyene jpl nasa gov julie eddie jpl nasa gov julie kangas writes for how foods taste not allergic msg and like the taste why shouldn use saying shouldn use like saying shouldn eat spicy food because neighbor has ulcer julie doesn necessarily follow that you should use msg something else for that matter simply because you are not allergic for example you might not allergic animal fats and like their taste yet doesn follow that you should using them regularly msg might have other bad good not knowledge msg effects your body the long run maybe that reason enough not use altho your example the ulcer funny isn appropriate comparison all prakash das
sci.med	krillean photography article apr vxcrna cern filipe vxcrna cern vinci writes how about kirlian imaging believe the faq for sci skeptics has nice write this they would certainly most supportive helping you build such device and connect kvolt supply that you can take serious look your aura filipe santos cern european laboratory for particle physics switzerland please sign the relevant documents and forward the remaining parts our study effect human tissue wrapped film thanks for your support thomas trusk dept cellular biology anatomy email ttrusk its mcw edu medical college wisconsin milwaukee disclaimer ala foghorn leghorn joke son joke say
sci.med	net address for who article apr mintaka lcs mit edu elg silver lcs mit edu elizabeth glaser writes looking for the email address the world health organization particular the address for the department nursing the chief scientist for nursing miriam hirschfeld the snail mail address have the following world health organization avenue appia geneva switzerland the domain address the who who arcom try sending email postmaster who arcom josh backon vms huji please respond directly thank you for your assistance elg elizabeth glaser elg silver lcs mit edu
sci.med	use haldol elderly does anyone know research done the use haldol the elderly does short term use the drug ever produce long term side effects after the use the drug grandmother recently had hospitalized and was given large doses haldol for several weeks although the drug has been terminated she has changed from perky slightly senile woman into virtual vegetable who does not talk anyone and who cannot even eat brush her teeth without assistance seems incredible that such changes could take place the course just one and one half months have believe that the combination the hospital stay and some drug are part catalysts for this any comments will estes internet westes netcom com
sci.med	hypodermic needle doing term paper the syringe and have found some information said that charles pravaz has invented the hypodermic needle but then have also found that alexander wood has invented does anyone know which one was anyone else there anymore information that out there could you please send thank you very much becky olsen
sci.med	poisoning with heavy water was too many mris all can remember that there was article scientific american maybe years ago someone else noted rats mice fed nothing but heavy water eventually died and the explanation was given haynes cats ucsc edu haynes cats bitnet can talk all wanna but dif rent than was aint but gotta know the territory meredith willson the music man
sci.med	hypodermic needle article vij eis calstate edu becky olsen bolsen eis calstate edu writes doing term paper the syringe and have found some information said that charles pravaz has invented the hypodermic needle but then have also found that alexander wood has invented does anyone know which one was anyone else there anymore information that out there could you please send thank you very much becky olsen looking the evolution anaesthesia armstrong davison pub williams wilkins baltimore found the following chronology charles gabriel pravaz inventor the galvanocautery describes glass syringe with tapered nozzle this syringe was intended used with special trocar for injecting ferric chloride into aneurysms and thus heal them coagulation alexander wood edinburgh invents the hypodermic needle and adapts pravaz syringe for use with you might also interested read about the experiments sir christopher wren described oldenberg clarck the philosophical transactions the royal society using sharpened quill and pig bladder injected opium wine and beer into the veins dogs don mackie anesthesiology will disavow
sci.med	msg sensitivity superstition article rcfj innmds roundup crhc uiuc edu mary uicsl csl uiuc edu mary allison writes which was why started checking every time got sick and every time got sick msg was somehow involved one the food products which points the studies made amateurs did you also check every time you did not get sick you say why not check every thing you eat when you don get sick and find out how much msg you actually consuming all that needed now that final step double blind study done humans there isn even ethical question about possible harm this widely used and approved food additive but some say that only the population has problem with msg some say more like but let say that how many people would have tested that would have problem also know have problem with and wouldn volunteer for test you knew enough about what the test was about decide that you didn want participate because involved msg you already made yourself ineligible since msg detectable taste how can anybody clueless what double blind studies are all about carl lydick internet carl sol gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol carl disclaimer hey understand vaxen and vms that what get paid for understanding astronomy purely the amateur level below unless what saying directly related vax vms don hold organization responsible for related vax vms you can try hold responsible for but organization had nothing with
sci.med	opinions allergy hay fever shots article apr midway uchicago edu jacquier gsbux uchicago edu eric jacquier says from now looks like shots per week for months followed shot per month each shot costs talking about soaring costs and the health care system would call that racket are not talking about rare amazonian grasses here but the garbage which grows behind the doctor office apart from this issue was somewhat disappointed find out that you have keep getting the shots forever that right you might look for allergy doctor your area who uses sublingual drops instead shots for treatment you are given small bottle antigens drops are placed under the tongue for minutes allergy bermuda grass was neutralized this way throughout the treatment process had return the doctor office every month for testing and new bottle antigens after the allergy was completely neutralized bottle maintenance antigens lasts about months the sublingual drops are then taken times per week and costs the cost less than shots and more convenient just take the drops home bruce long
sci.med	localized fat reduction due exercise question was just wondering exercises specific particular regions the body such thighs will basically only tone the thighs fat from other parts the body such breasts would affected just much anthony chung amigas case western reserve university the school dentistry future hac cwru edu cabal irc
sci.med	use haldol and the elderly nursing student and would like respond haldol and the elderly message apr fsphy physics fsu edu organization florida state university school higher thought news software vax vms vnews first sorry hear that you have had see your grandmother through this know has have been tough there are many things that can cause long term confusion elderly adults the change environment can cause problems anesthetic agents can cause confusion because the body cannot clear the medicines out the body easily addition medications and interactions between medications can cause confusion far whether not haldol can have long lasting effects even after the drug has been discontinued not know have not seen anything that effect however also had not been looking for that information can see what can find can tell you that haldol antipsychotic drug and according the nursing drug handbook especially useful for agitation associated with senile dementia also should not discontinued abruptly did not say anything about long lasting effects because many things can cause confusion hard for know what else was going the time had more history might able answer you better you want send mail with more information would happy try help you piece together what might have happened elisa picl fsphy physics fsu edu
sci.med	roc curves software understand robert centor has program called roc analyzer that can used receiver operating characteristic roc curve analysis does anyone know this avaliable from ftp site not does anyone know how get copy howard doyle doyle pitt edu
sci.med	use haldol and the elderly article mailer fsu edu picl account picl fsphy physics fsu edu writes adults the change environment can cause problems anesthetic agents can cause confusion because the body cannot clear the medicines out the body easily the original poster did not say why his mother had been hospital but can answer few general points elderly patients may exhibit marked difficulty coping after being hospital for few days the drastic change environment will often unmask how marginally they have been coping home even young people find the change unsettling though have thought that this decrement function after say anaesthesia and surgery for fractured hip common event the elderly was due anaesthesia there good evidence that the change situation much more important some hospitals have tried rapid transit system for hip fractures aiming have the patient back home within hours admission the selection the anaesthetic has effect the ability discharge these patients early anaesthetists who work with the elderly which almost all generally take care tailor the choice and dose drugs used the individual patient even there some evidence that full mental recovery may take surprisingly long time return this the sort thing which detected setting quite difficult tasks not the gross change that the original poster noted haloperidol haldol long acting drug the plasma half life the drug hours the decanoate sort slow release formulation used may weeks the elderly are sensitive haloperidol for number reasons without knowing more hard comment don mackie his opinions esiology will disavow
sci.med	use haldol elderly seen people their forties and fifties become disoriented and demented during hospital stays the examples seen drugs were definitely involved own father turned into vegetable for short time while the hospital was fifty three the time and was separate medications the family protested but the doctors were adamant telling that none the drugs interact they even took the attitude that was disoriented they should put him something else well with the help friend the family had all his medication discontinued had seizure that night and was put back one drug two days later was his old self again guess there aren many medical texts that address the subject way interactions don mean this cheap shot the medical profession aspect hospitals that very frightening docs seem believe that because they have close control you quite all right take your bodily equilibria into their own hands that control reduces the chance that the patient will make mistake but health care providers can make mistakes too and mistakes can deadly under those circumstances grant you that sometimes there choice nevertheless suggest you procure list the drugs your grandmother getting and discuss with independent doc her problems may not the effect haldol all haldol may have been used validly may have been prescribed because other medication confused her and because the hospital normally prescribes haldol for the confused elderly just opinion larry obviously not doc
sci.med	request gyro souvlaki sauce got this recipe from watier the greek island samos they use spread for bread there butit excellent gyro well the way the actual name tzatziki here the recipe yoghurt chopped garlic peeled chopped cucumber salt white pepper little olive oil and little vinegar would love hear any other good greek recipes out there jon walker jowalker oboe calpoly edu
sci.med	hypodermic syringe while don have answer for you reckon blaise pascal generally credited with inventing the syringe per don know much about the needles however know southwest virginia country doctor who some thrity more years ago invented patented used and sold syringe hypodermic needle combination that retracted injected with the flip trigger then retracted giving near painless injection the fellow was daniel gabriel and was termed the gabriel somebody else syringe did you come across that one plastic disposable syringes came onto the market about that time and his product went the wayside knowledge
sci.med	use haldol elderly article yfqmlek andrew cmu edu lawrence curcio andrew cmu edu writes seen people their forties and fifties become disoriented and demented during hospital stays the examples seen drugs were definitely involved own father turned into vegetable for short time while the hospital was fifty three the time and was separate drugs wonder became confused with many drugs almost impossible know which one causing the problem and because some drugs potentiate the effect each other they can make the side effects all the worse and even dangerous kinda like mixing alcohol and antihistamines was disoriened the doctors thougt they should put him something else well unfortunately doctors prescribe drugs treat the side effects the drugs patient receiving one drug they are taking causes the patient blood pressure many times antihypertensive prescribed instead evaluating the need for the original drug this why many older adults are trying take dozen drugs home procure list the drugs your grandmother getting and discuss with independent doc her problems may not the effect haldol all haldol may have been used validly may have been prescribed because other medication confused her and because the hospital normally prescribes haldol for the confused elderly fully agree addition she proably should examined another doctor who can evaluate the need for the medications she taking can remember the guidelines either saw text heard during lecture but any elderly adult who receiving medications should have the need for the drug evaluated regularly her current physician unwilling this find one who will either check the phone book for physician who specializes geriatric medicine gerontology contact physician referral line the american medical society finding geriatric specialist she will more likely tune with the special needs elderly adults and maybe can help
sci.med	fibromyalgia cfs and sleep levels know that there relationship between fibromyalgia and deep sleep believe that there are five levels sleep think that sleep the third deepest level sleep and that there are two deeper levels sleep error any this please let know which level sleep thought deficient people with fibromyalgia are there any known sleep disturbances associated with cfs what sleep disturbances any are associated with clinical depression antidepressants correct the sleep disturbances these diseases are there any good books medical journal articles about sleep disturbances and these diseases thank you advance for all replies the more inconvenient answer the phone the more rings origin one world los angeles
sci.med	pregnency without sex when was school boy biology teacher told incident which couple were very passionate without actually having sexual intercourse somehow the girl became pregnent sperm cells made their way her through the clothes via persperation was biology teacher misinforming such incidents actually occur stephen
sci.med	hicn medical news part cut here volume number april health info com network medical newsletter editor david dodell north street suite scottsdale arizona usa telephone fax compilation copyright david dodell all rights reserved license hereby granted republish electronic media for which fees are charged long the text this copyright notice and license are attached intact any and all republished portion portions the health info com network newsletter distributed biweekly articles medical nature are welcomed you have article please contact the editor for information how submit you are interested joining the automated distribution system please contact the editor mail address editor internet david stat com fidonet bitnet atw asuacad listserv mednews asuacad bitnet internet mednews asuvm inre asu edu anonymous ftp nodak edu notification list hicn notify request stat com fax delivery contact editor for information centers for disease control and prevention mmwr april rates cesarean delivery malaria among embassy personnel fda approval hib vaccine for children infants dental news workshop explores oral manifestations hiv infection food drug administration news fda approves depo provera injectable contraceptive new rules speed approval drugs for life threatening illnesses articles research promises preventing slowing blindness from retinal disease affluent diet increases risk heart disease general announcments publications for health professionals from national cancer institute publications for patients available from national cancer institute aids news summaries aids daily summary for april april aids statistics worldwide aids statistics hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april centers for disease control and prevention mmwr rates cesarean delivery united states source mmwr date apr cesarean deliveries have accounted for nearly million the approximately million annual deliveries the united states since table the cesarean rate the united states the third highest among reporting countries exceeded only brazil and puerto rico this report presents data cesarean deliveries from cdc national hospital discharge survey nhds for and compares these data with previous years data discharges from short stay nonfederal hospitals have been collected annually since the nhds conducted cdc national center for health statistics for medical and demographic information were abstracted from sample inpatients discharged from participating hospitals the cesareans and vaginal births after prior cesarean vbac presented this report are based weighted national estimates from the nhds sample approximately women discharged after delivery the estimated numbers live births type delivery were calculated applying cesarean rates from the nhds live births from national vital registration data therefore estimates the number cesareans this report will not agree with previously published data based solely the nhds stated differences this analysis are significant the confidence level based the two tailed test with critical value there were cesareans per deliveries the same rate and similar rates during table the primary cesarean rate number first cesareans per deliveries women who had previous cesareans for also was stable ranging from the cesarean rate the south was significantly higher than the rates for the west midwest and northeast rates were higher for mothers aged greater than equal years than for younger women proprietary hospitals than nonprofit government hospitals hospitals with fewer than beds than larger hospitals and for deliveries for which blue cross blue shield and other private insurance the expected source payment than for other sources payment table the same pattern characterized primary cesarean deliveries since the early the number and percentage births older women increased however the age distribution mothers had remained the same the overall cesarean rate would have been essentially the same the observed based the nhds the approximately live births hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april estimated were cesarean delivery these estimated births were repeat cesareans and were primary cesareans since approximately primary cesareans have been performed annually women who had previous cesarean delivered vaginally compared with all cesareans were associated with previous cesarean with dystocia failure labor progress with breech presentation with fetal distress and with all other specified complications the average hospital stay for all deliveries was days comparison the hospital stay for primary cesarean delivery was days and for repeat cesarean days nearly twice the duration for vbac deliveries days for vaginal deliveries that were not vbacs days the average hospital stay for all deliveries was days for primary cesareans days for repeat cesareans days and for vbac and non vbac vaginal deliveries and days respectively reported office vital and health statistics systems national center for health statistics cdc editorial note the cesarean rate the united states steadily increased from through however the findings this report indicate that rates have been stable since because there little evidence that maternal and child health status has improved during this time and because cesareans are associated with increased risk for complications childbirth national health objective for the year reduce the overall cesarean rate fewer per deliveries and the primary cesarean rate fewer per deliveries objective postpartum complications including urinary tract and wound infections may account part for the longer hospital stays for cesarean deliveries than for vaginal births moreover the prolonged hospital stays for cesarean deliveries substantially increase health care costs for example the average costs for cesarean and vaginal deliveries were and respectively the additional cost for each cesarean delivery includes for physician fees and for hospital charges the cesarean rate had been the year objective instead the number cesarean births would have decreased versus resulting savings more than billion physician fees and hospital charges despite the steady increase vbac rates since several factors may impede progress toward the year national health objectives for cesarean delivery for example vbac rates substantially reflect the number women offered trial labor which has been increasingly encouraged since women who are offered trial labor could deliver vaginally level already achieved many hospitals trial labor was routinely offered hospitals surveyed the most recent year for which hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april national data are available when the vbac rate according nhds data was the year objective specifies vbac rate based all women who had prior cesarean regardless whether trial labor was attempted reach the overall cesarean rate goal however increases the vbac rate will need combined with substantial reduction the primary rate one hospital succeeded reducing the rate cesarean delivery applying objective criteria for the four most common indications for cesarean delivery requiring second opinion and instituting peer review process other recommendations for decreasing cesarean delivery rates include eliminating incentives for physicians and hospitals equalizing reimbursement for vaginal and cesarean deliveries public dissemination physician and hospital specific cesarean delivery rates increase public awareness differences practices and addressing malpractice concerns which may important factor maintaining the high rates cesarean delivery references notzon international differences the use obstetric interventions jama graves nchs summary national hospital discharge survey hyattsville maryland department health and human services public health service cdc advance data taffel placek kosary cesarean section rates update birth public health service healthy people national health promotion and disease prevention objectives full report with commentary washington department health and human services public health service dhhs publication phs danforth cesarean section jama hospital insurance association america table cost maternity care physicians fees and hospital charges census region based consumer price index source book health insurance data washington hospital insurance association america committee obstetrics acog committee opinion guidelines for vaginal delivery after previous cesarean birth washington american college obstetricians and gynecologists hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april rosen dickinson vaginal birth after cesarean meta analysis indicators for success obstet gynecol shiono fielden mcnellis rhoads pearse recent trends cesarean birth and trial labor rates the united states jama myers gleicher successful program lower cesarean section rates engl med use trade names and commercial sources for identification only and does not imply endorsement the public health service the department health and human services hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april malaria among embassy personnel kampala uganda source mmwr date apr the treatment and prevention malaria africa has become challenging and complex problem because increasing drug resistance although the risk acquiring malaria for citizens and their dependents stationed overseas generally has been low this risk varies substantially and unpredictably during may the office medical services department state oms dos and cdc were notified increased number malaria cases among official personnel stationed kampala uganda review the health records from the embassy health unit ehu kampala indicated that cases malaria were diagnosed official personnel from march through june compared with two cases during the same period ehu oms dos and cdc conducted investigation confirm all reported malaria cases and identify potential risk factors for malaria among embassy personnel this report summarizes the results the investigation malaria blood smears from the reported case patients were available for review oms dos and cdc case malaria was confirmed the slide was positive for plasmodium the persons were slide confirmed having malaria questionnaire was distributed all persons served the ehu obtain information about residence activities use malaria chemoprophylaxis and use personal protection measures using bednets and insect repellents having window and door screens and wearing long sleeves and pants the evening the persons eligible for the survey responded risk for malaria was not associated with sex location residence kampala although the risk for malaria was higher among children aged less than equal years than among persons greater than years this difference was not significant relative risk confidence interval eighty two percent the cases occurred among persons who had been living kampala for years compared with those living there less than year travel outside the kampala area more rural settings was not associated with increased risk for malaria four malaria chemoprophylaxis regimens were used persons who participated the survey mefloquine chloroquine and proguanil chloroquine alone and proguanil alone addition persons who responded were not using any malaria chemoprophylaxis the risk for malaria was significantly lower among persons using either mefloquine chloroquine and proguanil than among persons using the other regimens prophylaxis twelve persons not using prophylaxis reported side effects fear possible side effects reason the risk for malaria was lower among persons who reported using bednets hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april all most the time than among persons who sometimes rarely used bednets the risk for malaria was also lower among persons who consistently used insect repellent the evening compared with those who rarely used repellent upper confidence limit risk for malaria was not associated with failure have window door screens wear long sleeves pants the evening result this investigation ehu staff reviewed with all personnel the need use and comply with the recommended malaria chemoprophylaxis regimens ehu staff also emphasized the need use personal protection measures and made plans obtain insecticide impregnated bednets and provide window and door screens for all personnel reported embassy health unit kampala uganda office medical svcs dept state washington malaria div parasitic diseases national center for infectious diseases cdc editorial note uganda the increase malaria among personnel was attributed poor adherence both recommended malaria chemoprophylaxis regimens and use personal protection measures during period increased malaria transmission and intensified chloroquine resistance sub saharan africa the findings this report underscore the need provide initial and continued counseling regarding malaria prevention for persons living abroad malaria endemic areas preventive measures that are also important for short term travelers such areas mefloquine effective prophylaxis regimen africa and most other areas with chloroquine resistant falciparum however some areas thailand resistance mefloquine may limit its effectiveness africa the efficacy mefloquine compared with chloroquine alone preventing infection with falciparum mefloquine safe and well tolerated when given per week over year period the risk for serious adverse reactions possibly associated with mefloquine prophylaxis psychosis and convulsions low episodes per users while the risk for less severe adverse reactions dizziness gastrointestinal complaints and sleep disturbances similar that for other antimalarial chemoprophylactics doxycycline has similar prophylactic efficacy mefloquine but the need for daily dosing may reduce compliance with and effectiveness this regimen chloroquine alone not effective prophylaxis areas intense chloroquine resistance southeast asia and africa africa for persons who cannot take mefloquine doxycycline chloroquine and proguanil alternative although less effective regimen chloroquine should used for malaria prevention areas only where chloroquine resistant falciparum has not been reported country specific recommendations for preventing malaria and information hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april the dosage and precautions for malaria chemoprophylaxis regimens are available from health information for international travel yellow book hours day telephone fax references lobel miani eng long term malaria prophylaxis with weekly mefloquine peace corps volunteers effective and well tolerated regimen lancet world health organization review central nervous system adverse events related the antimalarial drug mefloquine geneva world health organization publication who mal pang limsomwong singharaj prophylactic treatment vivax and falciparum malaria with low dose doxycycline infect dis pang limsomwong boudreau singharaj doxycycline prophylaxis for falciparum malaria lancet cdc health information for international travel atlanta department health and human services public health service dhhs publication cdc hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april fda approval use new haemophilus conjugate vaccine and combined diphtheria tetanus pertussis and haemophilus conjugate vaccine for infants and children source mmwr date apr haemophilus influenzae type hib conjugate vaccines have been recommended for use infants since and their routine use infant vaccination has contributed the substantial decline the incidence hib disease the united states vaccines against diphtheria tetanus and pertussis during infancy and childhood have been administered routinely the united states since the late and has been associated with greater than reduction morbidity and mortality associated with infection these organisms because the increasing number vaccines now routinely recommended for infants high priority the development combined vaccines that allow simultaneous administration with fewer separate injections the food and drug administration fda recently licensed two new products for vaccinating children against these diseases the haemophilus conjugate vaccine tetanus toxoid conjugate acthib trademark for vaccination against hib disease only and combined diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and whole cell pertussis vaccine dtp and hib conjugate vaccine tetramune trademark combination vaccines formulated for use vaccinating children against diphtheria tetanus pertussis and hib disease acthib trademark march the fda approved new haemophilus conjugate vaccine polyribosylribitol phosphate tetanus toxoid conjugate prp manufactured pasteur merieux serum vaccins and distributed acthib trademark connaught laboratories inc swiftwater pennsylvania this vaccine has been licensed for use infants three dose primary vaccination series administered ages and months previously unvaccinated infants months age should receive two doses months apart previously unvaccinated children months age should receive one dose booster dose administered months age recommended for all children previously unvaccinated children months age should receive single dose and not require booster more than infants receiving primary vaccination series acthib trademark consecutive doses and months age develop geometric mean titer anti haemophilus polysaccharide antibody greater than this response similar that infants who receive recommended series previously licensed haemophilus conjugate vaccines for which efficacy has been demonstrated prospective trials two efficacy trials prp were terminated early because the concomitant licensure other haemophilus conjugate vaccines hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april for use infants these studies cases invasive hib disease were detected approximately infants vaccinated with prp these and other studies suggest that the efficacy prp vaccine will similar that the other licensed hib vaccines tetramune trademark march the fda approved combined diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and whole cell pertussis vaccine dtp and haemophilus conjugate vaccine tetramune trademark available from lederle praxis biologicals pearl river new york combines two previously licensed products dtp triimmunol registered manufactured lederle laboratories pearl river new york and haemophilus conjugate vaccine hibtiter registered manufactured praxis biologics inc rochester new york this vaccine has been licensed for use children aged months years for protection against diphtheria tetanus pertussis and hib disease when indications for vaccination with dtp vaccine and haemophilus conjugate vaccine coincide based demonstration mparable higher antibody responses each the components the two vaccines tetramune trademark expected provide protection against hib well diphtheria tetanus and pertussis equivalent that already licensed formulations other dtp and haemophilus vaccines the advisory committee for immunization practices acip recommends that all infants receive primary series one the licensed haemophilus conjugate vaccines beginning months age and booster dose age months the acip also recommends that all infants receive four dose primary series diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and pertussis vaccine and months age and booster dose years complete statement regarding recommendations for use acthib trademark and tetramune trademark being developed reported office vaccines research and review center for biologics evaluation and research food and drug administration div immunization national center for prevention svcs meningitis and special pathogens div bacterial and mycotic diseases national center for infectious diseases cdc references adams deaver cochi decline childhood haemophilus influenzae type hib disease the hib vaccine era jama broadhurst erickson kelley decrease invasive haemophilus influenzae disease army children through jama murphy white pastor declining incidence haemophilus influenzae type disease since introduction vaccination jama hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april fritzell plotkin efficacy and safety haemophilus influenzae type capsular polysaccharide tetanus protein conjugate vaccine pediatr acip haemophilus conjugate vaccines for prevention haemophilus influenzae type disease among infants and children two months age and older recommendations the immunization practices advisory committee acip mmwr acip diphtheria tetanus and pertussis recommendations for vaccine use and other preventive measures recommendations the immunization practices advisory committee acip mmwr acip pertussis vaccination acellular pertussis vaccine for reinforcing and booster use supplementary acip statement recommendations the immunization practices advisory committee acip mmwr acip pertussis vaccination acellular pertussis vaccine for the fourth and fifth doses the dtp series update supplementary acip statement recommendations the immunization practices advisory committee acip mmwr use trade names and commercial sources for identification only and does not imply endorsement the public health service the department health and human services hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april dental news international workshop explores oral manifestations hiv infection nidr research digest written jody dove march national institute dental research the second international workshop the oral manifestations hiv infection held january february san francisco participants explored issues related the epidemiology basic molecular virology mucosal immunology and oral clinical presentations hiv infection the workshop was organized john greenspan and deborah greenspan the department stomatology school dentistry university california san francisco international steering committee and scientific program committee provided guidance the conference drew more than scientists from countries including asia africa europe central america south america well the united states and canada support tor the workshop was provided the national institute dental research the national cancer institute the national institute allergy and infectious diseases the nih office aids research and the procter and gamble company among the topics discussed were the epidemiology hiv lesions ethics professional responsibility and public policy occupational issues provision oral care the hiv positive population salivary hiv transmission and mucosal immunity opportunistic infections pediatric hiv infection and women issues recommendations recommendations emerged from the workshop define the association between the appearance oral lesions and rate progression hiv establish universal terminology for hiv associated oral lesions look for more effective treatments for oral manifestations expand molecular biology studies understand the relationship between hiv infection and common oral lesions and study the effects hiv therapy oral lesions epidemiology since the first international workshop oral manifestations hiv infection was convened five years ago the epidemiology hiv infection has hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april radically changed hiv infection was detected and reported largely homosexual and bisexual males intravenous drug users and hemophiliacs today more hiv infection seen heterosexual males and females and children and adolescents while the predominant impact hiv infection has been felt africa major increase infection rate being seen southeast asia well five hundred thousand cases have been reported date this region and more are appearing all the time researchers are continuing document the epidemiology oral lesions such hairy leukoplakia and candidiasis they also are beginning explore the relationships between specific oral lesions and hiv disease progression and prognosis social political issues discussion the social and political implications hiv infection focused changing the public attitude that aids retribution for indiscriminate sexual behavior and drug use speakers also addressed health care delivery for hiv infected patients and the need educate the public about what aids and how acquired saliva and salivary glands conference speakers described transmission issues and the hiv inhibitory activity saliva the strength which varies among the different salivary secretions whole saliva has greater inhibitory effect than submandibular secretions which turn have greater inhibitory effect than parotid secretions research has shown that least two mechanisms are responsible for salivary inhibitory activity they attributed the hiv inhibitory effect saliva the aggregation agglutination hiv saliva which may both promote clearance virus and prevent reaching target cell and direct effects the virus target cells other topics discussed were the manifestation salivary gland disease hiv infected persons and current research oral mucosal immunity pediatric issues pediatric aids recently has emerged area intense interest with early and accurate diagnosis and proper treatment the life expectancy hiv infected children has tripled the prevention transmission hiv from mother child may possible many cases particularly the mother sero status known prior giving birth periodontal and gingival tissue disease hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april oral health researchers continue explore periodontal diseases and gingivitis found individuals with hiv infection recommendations made the workshop include the standardization terminology refinement diagnostic markers standardization study design and proper consideration confounding variables resulting from periodontal therapy occupational and treatment issues occupational issues surrounding the treatment hiv infected individuals and treatment rendered hiv infected health care professionals still command considerable attention factors under consideration include the cost benefit hiv testing patient health care provider transmission hiv infection and the reverse and the use mainstream versus dedicated facilities for the treatment hiv infected patients conference participants anticipate that third international workshop the oral manifestations hiv infection will held five years less proceedings from the second workshop will published the quintessence company late end part internet david stat com fax bitnet atw asuacad fidonet amateur packet tpy tpy usa
sci.med	hicn medical news part cut here hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april food drug administration news fda approves depo provera injectable contraceptive food and drug administration for immediate release susan cruzan the food and drug administration today announced the approval depo provera injectable contraceptive drug the drug which contains synthetic hormone similar the natural hormone progesterone protects women from pregnancy for three months per injection the hormone injected into the muscle the arm buttock where released into the bloodstream prevent pregnancy more than percent effective this drug presents another long term effective option for women prevent pregnancy said fda commissioner david kessler injectable given once every three months depo provera eliminates problems related missing daily dose depo provera available single dose vials from doctors and clinics and must given regular basis maintain contraceptive protection patient decides become pregnant she discontinues the injections with any such products fda advises patients discuss the benefits and risks depo provera with their doctor other health care professional before making decision use depo provera effectiveness contraceptive was established extensive studies the manufacturer the world health organization and health agencies other countries clinical trials begun also found depo provera effective injectable contraceptive the most common side effects are menstrual irregularities and weight gain addition some patients may experience headache nervousness abdominal pain dizziness weakness fatigue the drug should not used women who have acute liver disease unexplained vaginal bleeding breast cancer blood clots the legs lungs eyes the labeling advises doctors rule out pregnancy before prescribing the drug due concerns about low birth weight babies exposed the drug hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april recent data have also demonstrated that long term use may contribute osteoporosis the manufacturer will conduct additional research study this potential effect depo provera was developed the and has been approved for contraception many other countries the upjohn company kalamazoo mich which will market the drug under the name depo provera contraceptive injection first submitted for approval the united states the that time animal studies raised questions about its potential cause breast cancer worldwide studies have since found the overall risk cancer including breast cancer humans minimal any hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april new rules speed approval drugs for life threatening illnesses food and drug administration monica revelle the food and drug administration today announced that will soon publish new rules shed the approval drugs for patients with serious life threatening illnesses such aids cancer and alzheimer disease these final rules will help patients who are suffering the most serious illnesses get access new drugs months even years earlier than would otherwise possible said hhs secretary louis sullivan the effort accelerate fda review for these drugs has been long term commitment and indeed hallmark this administration these rules establish procedures for the food and drug administration approve drug based surrogate endpoints markers they apply when the drug provides meaningful benefit over currently available therapies such endpoints would include laboratory tests physical signs that not themselves constitute clinical effect but that are judged qualified scientists likely correspond real benefits the patient use surrogate endpoints for measurement drug efficacy permits approval earlier than traditional endpoints such relief disease symptoms prevention disability and death from the disease are used the new rules provide for therapies approved soon safety and effectiveness based surrogate endpoints can reasonably established the drug sponsor will required agree continue conduct postmarketing human studies confirm that the drug effect the surrogate endpoint indicator its clinical effectiveness one new drug zalcitabine also called ddc was approved june using model this process for treating the human immunodeficiency virus hiv the cause aids accelerated approval can also used necessary when fda determines that drug judged effective for the treatment disease can used safely only under restricted distribution plan the new rules will help streamline the drug development and review process without sacrificing goad science and rigorous fda oversight said fda commissioner david kessler while drug approval will accomplished faster these drugs and biological products must still meet safety and effectiveness standards required law hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april the new procedures also allow for streamlined withdrawal process the postmarketing studies not verify the drug clinical benefit there new evidence that the drug product not shown safe and effective other specified circumstances arise that necessitate expeditious withdrawal the drug biologic hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april articles research shows promise for preventing slowing blindness due retinal disease national retinitis pigmentosa foundation neutrophilic factors rescue photoreceptor cells animal tests baltimore researchers the university california san francisco and regeneron pharmaceuticals inc nasdaq regn have discovered that certain naturally occurring substances known neurotrophic factors can prevent the degeneration light sensing cells the retina the eye the degeneration these cells known photoreceptors major cause visual impairment this research published the december issue the proceedings the national academy science pnas holds promise for people who may lose their sight due progressive retinal degeneration currently drug treatment for retinal degeneration exists estimated that million americans have severe vision loss due age related macular degeneration and americans are affected retinitis pigmentosus hereditary disease that causes blindness addition each year more than people undergo surgical procedures repair retinal detachments and other retinal traumas the research was funded part the retinitis pigmentosa foundation fighting blindness regeneron pharmaceuticals and the national eye institute was conducted drs matthew lavail kazuhiko unoki douglas yasurnura michael matthes and roy steinberg ucsf arld eorge yancoooulos regeneron vice president for discovery regeneron holds exclusive license for this research from ucsf the research described the pnas light damage model was used assess the survival promoting activity number naturally occurring substances experimental rats were exposed constant light for one week eyes that had not been treated with effective factor lost most their photoreceptor cells the rods and cones the retina after light exposure brain derived neurotrophic factor bdnf and ciliary neurotrophic factor cntf were particularly effective this model without causing unwanted side effects other factors such nerve growth factor ngf and insulin like growth factor igf were not effective these experiments discussing the research jesse cedarbaum regeneron director clinical research said bdnf ability rescue neurons the retina that have been damaged light exposure may hold promise for the treatment age related macular degeneration one the leading causes vision impairment and for retinal detachment following detachment permanent vision loss may hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april result frorn the death detached retinal cells possible that bdnf could play role rescuing those cells once the retina has been reattached surgically retinitis pigmentosa slowly progressing disease that causes the retina degenerate over period years even decades vision decreases small tunnel sight and can result total blindness our hope that research growth factors will provide means slow the progression and preserve useful vision throughout life stated jeanette felix director science for the foundation fighting blindness addition the work described regeneron developing bdnf conjunction with aingen inc nasdaq amgn possible treatment for peripheral neuropathies associated with diabetes and cancer chemotherapy motor neuron diseases parkinson disease and alzheimer disease itself regeneron testing cntf patients with arnyotrophic lateral sclerosis commonly known lou gehrig disease regeneron pharlnaceuticals inc based tarrytown new york leader the discovery and development biotechnology based compounds for the treatment neurodegenerative diseases peripheral neuropathies and nerve injuries which affect more than seven million americans drs lavail and steinberg ucsf are consultants regeneron hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april affluent diet increases risk heart disease research resources reporter written mary weideman nov dec national institutes health high fat high calorie diets rapidly increase risk factors for coronary heart disease native populations developing countries that have traditionally consumed diets low fat these findings according investigators the oregon health sciences university portland have serious implications for public health both industrialized and developing countries this study demonstrates why can develop coronary heart disease and have higher blood cholesterol and triglyceride levels shows also the importance diet and particularly the potential the diet increase body weight thereby leading whole host other health problems developing countries and affluent nations well explains principal investigator william connor head the section clinical nutrition and lipid metabolism oregon health sciences university over the past years connor and his team have characterized the food and nutrient intakes the tara humara indians mexico while simultaneously documenting various aspects tarahumara lipid metabolism these native mexicans number approximately and reside the sierra madre occidental mountains the state chihuahua the tarahumaras have coupled agrarian diet endurance racing probably result coronary heart disease which prevalent western industrialized nations virtually non existent their culture loosely translated the name tarahumara means fleet foot reflecting tribal passion for betting kickball races which participants run distances miles more while kicking machete carved wooden ball the typical tarahumara diet consists primarily pinto beans tortillas and pinole drink made ground roasted corn mixed with cold water together with squash and gath ered fruits and vegetables the tara humaras also eat small amounts game fish and eggs their food contains approximately percent total calories fat which the majority percent vegetable origin dietician martha mcmurry coinvestigator the study describes their diet simple and very rich nutrients while low cholesterol and fat the tarahumaras have average plasma cholesterol levels low density lipoprotein ldl cholesterol levels and high density lipoprotein hdl cholesterol levels all those values are the good low risk range according the researchers elevated cholesterol and ldl cholesterol levels are considered risk factors for heart hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april disease hdl cholesterol considered beneficial previous studies the tarahumaras had been found low risk for cardiac disease although able respond high cholesterol diets with elevations total and ldl cholesterol clinical research center dietitian mcmurry and coinvestigator maria teresa cerqueira established metabolic unit jesuit mission school building near community hospital the small village sisoguichi food was weighed cooked and fed the study participants under the investigators direct supervision ensuring that subjects ate only food stipulated the research protocol fasting blood was drawn twice weekly and plasma samples were frozen and shipped connors laboratory for cholesterol triglyceride and lipoprotein analyses regular measurements included participant body weight height and triceps skin fold thickness thirteen tarahumaras five women and eight men including one adolescent were fed their native diet for week followed weeks affluent diet this study went concentration dietary fat that was percent total calories this the prototype the holiday diet that many americans consume diet high fat sugar and cholesterol low fiber elaborates conners such dietary characteristics are reflected the cholesterol saturation index csi recently devised research dietitian sonja conner working with connor the csi single number that incorporates both the amount cholesterol and the amount saturated fat the diet csi indicates the diet potential elevate the cholesterol level particularly the ldl connor explains the tarahumaran diet averages very low csi connor affluent diet used the study ranks csi the experimental design this study reflects the importance establishing baseline plasma lipid levels typical the native diet before exposing subjects the experimental diet the standard curve relating dietary food intake plasma cholesterol demonstrates leveling off plateau for consumption large amounts fat changes dietary fat and cholesterol this range have little effect plasma levels you must have the baseline diet almost free the variables you are going put into the experimental diet the framingham study for example did not discriminate the basis diet between individuals who got heart disease because the diet was already high fat all subjects were already eating plateau connor says after weeks consuming the affluent diet the subjects mean plasma cholesterol levels had creased percent primarily the ldl fraction which rose percent hdl cholesterol increased per cent and ldl hdl ratios changed therefore very little plasma triglyceride levels increased percent and subjects averaged pound gain weight according connor lipid changes occurred surprisingly soon yielding nearly the same results after days affluent diet after days hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april the increase hdl carries broad dietary implications for industrialized nations think hdl cholesterol increased because increased the amount dietary fat over the fat content used the previous tarahumara metabolic study that study saw change hdl levels after raising the dietary cholesterol but keeping the fat relatively consistent with native consumption the present study increased fat intake percent the total calories reached the conclusion the tarahumara study that hdl reflects the amount dietary fat general and not the amount dietary cholesterol hdl must increase help metabolize the fat and increased quite bit this study connor explains low hdl the tarahumarans not typically important predictor coronary heart disease because they not normally consume large amounts fat cholesterol hdl remains important predictor americans because their usual high fat intake connor recommends diet for americans that contains less than percent total calories fat less than cholesterol and csi around varying accordance with caloric needs such diet low meat and dairy fat high fiber connor also comments recent suggestions that americans adopt mediterranean style diet the original mediterranean diet its pristine state consisted very low intake fat and very few animal and dairy products are already eating lot meat and dairy products simply continue that pattern while switching olive oil not going help the situation the world health organization who focusing much attention the emergence diseases such coronary heart disease nations and societies undergoing technological development connor says that coronary heart disease starts with given society elite who typically eat different diet than the average citizen the pattern afluence increases the entire population will have have higher incidence coronary heart disease which places termendous health care burden society who would like the developing countries prevent coronary heart disease they can concentrate other aspects their economic development and public health measures improve general well being rather than paying for unnecessary expensive medical technology connors says the overall implication this study that humans can readily move their plasma lipids and lipoprotein values into high risk range within very short time affluent excessive diet the present rate coronary heart disease the united states percent less than was years ago lot has been accomplished are changing rapidly concludes hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april general announcments publications for health professionals available from nci unless otherwise noted the following materials are provided free charge calling the nci publication ordering service cancer because federal government publications are not subject copyright restriction you are free photocopy nci material general information anticancer drug information sheets spanish english two sided fact sheets english and spanish provide information about side effects common drugs used treat cancer their proper usage and precautions for patients the fact sheets were prepared the united states pharmacopeial convention inc for distribution the national cancer institute single sets only may ordered cancer rates and risks edition this book compact guide statistics risk factors and risks for major cancer sites includes charts and graphs showing incidence mortality and survival worldwide and the united states also contains section the costs cancer pages diet nutrition cancer prevention guide food choices this booklet describes what now known about diet nutrition and cancer prevention provides information about foods that contain components like fiber fat and vitamins that may affect person risk getting certain cancers suggests ways use that information select from broad variety foods choosing more some foods and less others includes recipes and sample menus pages national cancer institute fact book this book presents general information about the national cancer institute including budget data grants and contracts and historical information hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april national cancer institute grants process revised this booklet describes general nci grant award procedures includes chapters eligibility preparation grant application peer review eligible costs and post award activities pages physician physician perspective clinical trials this minute videocassette discusses why and how enter patients clinical trials was produced collaboration with the american college surgeons commission cancer students with cancer resource for the educator revised this booklet designed for teachers who have students with cancer their classrooms schools includes explanation cancer its treatment and effects and guidelines for the young person entry school and for dealing with terminally ill students bibliographies are included for both educators and young people pages understanding the immune system this booklet describes the complex network specialized cells and organs that make the human immune system explains how the system works fight off disease caused invading agents such bacteria and viruses and how sometimes malfunctions resulting variety diseases from allergies arthritis cancer was developed the national institute allergy and infectious diseases and printed the national cancer institute this booklet presents college level instruction immunology appropriate for nursing pharmacology students and for persons receiving college training other areas within the health professions pages materials help stop tobacco use chew snuff educator package each package contains ten copies chew snuff real bad stuff brochure designed for seventh and eighth graders that describes the health and social effects using hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april smokeless tobacco products when fully opened the brochure can used poster one copy chew snuff real bad stuff guide make young people aware the dangers using smokeless tobacco this booklet lesson plan for teachers contains facts about smokeless tobacco suggested classroom activities and selected educational resources how help your patients stop smoking national cancer institute manual for physicians this step step handbook for instituting smoking cessation techniques medical practices the manual with resource lists and tear out materials based the results nci clinical trials pages how help your patients stop using tobacco national cancer institute manual for the oral health team this handbook for dentists dental hygienists and dental assistants complements the physicians manual and includes additional information smoking prevention and smokeless tobacco use pages pharmacists helping smokers quit kit packet materials help pharmacists encourage their smoking patients quit contains pharmacist guide and self help materials for patients school programs prevent smoking the national cancer institute guide strategies that succeed this guide outlines eight essential elements successful school based smoking prevention program based nci research includes list available curriculum resources and selected references pages self guided strategies for smoking cessation program planner guide this booklet outlines key characteristics successful self help materials and programs based nci collaborative research lists additional resources and references pages smoking policy questions and answers these ten fact sheets hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april provide basic information about the establishment worksite smoking policies topics range from the health effects environmental tobacco smoke legal issues concerning policy implementation strategies control tobacco use the united states blueprint for public health action the smoking and control monograph this volume provides summary what has been learned from years public health effort against smoking from the early trial and error health information campaigns the the nci science based project american stop smoking intervention study for cancer prevention which began offers reasons why comprehensive smoking control strategies are now needed address the smoker total environment and reduce smoking prevalence significantly over the next decade materials for outreach programs cancer prevention and early detection community outreach programs for health professionals three kits are available for community program planners and health professionals set local cancer prevention and early detection education projects the right thing get new attitude about cancer community outreach program this community outreach kit targets black american audiences contains materials help health professionals conduct community education programs for black audiences the kit emphasizes the early detection breast cancer mammography and cervical cancer the pap test also discusses smoking and nutrition the kit includes helpful program guidance facts news articles visuals and brochures hagalo hoy community outreach program this community outreach kit targets hispanic audiences contains bilingual and spanish language materials help health professionals conduct community education programs the materials educate hispanic audiences about early detection breast cancer mammography hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april and cervical cancer pap tests the kit also discusses smoking and related issues the kit includes helpful guidance facts news articles visuals and brochures once year for lifetime community outreach mammography program this community outreach kit targets all women age over supplies community program planners and health professionals with planning guidance facts about mammography news articles visuals and brochures making health communication programs work planner guide this handbook presents key principles and steps developing and evaluating health communications programs for the public patients and health professionals expands upon and replaces pretesting health communications and making psas work pages support material for community outreach programs the video and slide presentations listed below support the mammography outreach programs once year for lifetime videotape this minute vhs videotape uses dramatic format highlight the important facts about the early detection breast cancer mammography una vez ano para toda una vida videotape this minute spanish videotape informs spanish speaking women the need for medical screening particularly mammography explains commonly misunderstood facts about breast cancer and early detection the program dramatic format features edward james olmos and cristina saralegui once year for lifetime speaker kit slide show this kit includes full color slides and number coded ready read script suitable for mammography presentation large group addresses the misconceptions prevalent about mammography and urges women age and older get regular mammograms that breast cancer can detected early possible kit hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april includes guide poster media announcement news feature flyer and pamphlets mammography this kit available directly writing modern park street north petersburg end part internet david stat com fax bitnet atw asuacad fidonet amateur packet tpy tpy usa
sci.med	hicn medical news part cut here call for employers keep information about the hiv status health care workers confidential but doctors who know hiv positive colleague who has not sought advice must inform the employing authority and the appropriate professional regulatory body the guidelines also emphasize the significance notifying all patients whom invasive procedure has been done infected health care worker model letter patients who have come into contact with such individual provided along with suggestions for health officials how deal with the media addition advisory panel hiv infection health care workers has been formed provide specific occupational recommendations those treating such patients properties hiv vaccine nature vol volvovitz franklin and smith gale the questions raised moore about recombinant envelope glycoprotein precursor from hiv produced microgenesys are advantages rather than disadvantages write franklin volvovitz and gale smith microgenesys meriden conn moore says that baculovirus expression system does not bind strongly the receptor and that this recombinant does not stimulate the same antibodies the hiv virus does natural infection but vaccination with recombinant patients infected with hiv broadens hiv specific envelope directed immune responses including crossreactive antibodies epitopes and and cytotoxic cell responses volvovitz and smith claim that they never intended their molecule identical the native protein antibody responses against native hiv proteins including the types described moore exist nearly all aids patients but not prevent hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april progression hiv disease addition the binding antibody complexes has been shown interfere with antigen specific activation cells and trigger programmed cell death vitro which may contribute the pathogenesis hiv infection the absence binding the microgenesys vaccine may therefore viewed added safety feature phase studies have demonstrated stable counts stimulation cytotoxic cells and the suggestion restoration immune function based these and other clinical results microgenesys was chosen researchers the karolinska institute sweden for the first phase iii vaccine therapy studies conclude volvovitz and smith hiv infection breast milk and hiv transmission lancet vol mok jacqueline there are still more questions than answers regarding hiv positive women breastfeeding their babies writes jacqueline mok the lancet the anti infective properties milk are well documented while the numbers leukocytes concentrations lactoferrin and iga and lymphocyte mitogenic activity decline sharply during the first two three months lactation barely detectable levels lactoferrin and iga then increase from three twelve months with percent total iga milk being secretory iga breastfeeding protects infants against gastrointestinal and respiratory illnesses both normal and uninfected children born hiv positive mothers the italian national registry aids discovered that breastfed hiv infected children had longer median incubation time months than bottlefed infants months breastfed children also had slower progression aids there agreement which antibodies offer protection against hiv infection studies the biological properties milk from hiv infected women showed the presence igg and iga antibodies against envelope glycoproteins well iga antibodies against core antigens binding hiv the receptor can inhibited human milk factor the developing world where infectious disease and malnutrition contribute significantly infant mortality breast milk still the best food for infants regardless the mother hiv status transmission might restricted breastfeeding after colostrum and early milk have been expressed and discarded the possibility remains that breast milk could protect the infant who already infected with hiv birth and may even delay progression aids concludes mok absence hiv transmission from infected dentist his patients journal the american medical association vol dickinson gordon universal precautions are practiced the risk hiv transmission from dentist patient appears infinitesimal write gordon dickinson hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april the university miami school medicine miami fla the researchers contacted all patients treated dentist with aids and attempts were made contact all patients for hiv testing living patients with newly detected hiv infection were interviewed and dna sequence analysis was performed compare genetic relatedness their hiv that the dentist death certificates were obtained for deceased patients and the medical records those with diagnoses suggestive hiv disease drug abuse and those dying under the age years were examined detail there were patients who had undergone procedures whom were deceased examination the death certificates patients identified five who had died with hiv infection all whom were either homosexuals drug users the researchers were able detect the remaining patients and agreed tested hiv infection was reported five the patients including four who had clear evidence risk factors for the disease one patient who had only single evaluation the dentist denied high risk behavior comparative dna sequence analysis showed that the viruses from the dentists and these five patients were not closely related the study suggests the potential for hiv transmission from general dentist his patients minimal setting which universal precautions are strictly observed conclude dickinson april aids patients are susceptible recurrences study says washington post tuberculosis can strike aids patients more than once which makes the resurging health hazard harder control according study published today new england journal medicine people who contract usually develop immunity that protects them they are exposed the bacteria again but person whose immune system depleted may not able fight off new infection doctors found peter small the howard hughes medical institute stanford university director the study said that order protect against reinfection may necessary for some people use medicines permanently the study examined the genetic makeup bacteria and how the germs changed over time patients kings county hospital new york hiv infection breast milk and hiv transmission lancet vol mok jacqueline there are still more questions than answers regarding hiv positive women breastfeeding their babies writes jacqueline mok the lancet the anti infective properties milk are well documented while the numbers hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april leukocytes concentrations lactoferrin and iga and lymphocyte mitogenic activity decline sharply during the first two three months lactation barely detectable levels lactoferrin and iga then increase from three twelve months with percent total iga milk being secretory iga breastfeeding protects infants against gastrointestinal and respiratory illnesses both normal and uninfected children born hiv positive mothers the italian national registry aids discovered that breastfed hiv infected children had longer median incubation time months than bottlefed infants months breastfed children also had slower progression aids there agreement which antibodies offer protection against hiv infection studies the biological properties milk from hiv infected women showed the presence igg and iga antibodies against envelope glycoproteins well iga antibodies against core antigens binding hiv the receptor can inhibited human milk factor the developing world where infectious disease and malnutrition contribute significantly infant mortality breast milk still the best food for infants regardless the mother hiv status transmission might restricted breastfeeding after colostrum and early milk have been expressed and discarded the possibility remains that breast milk could protect the infant who already infected with hiv birth and may even delay progression aids concludes mok hiv and the aetiology aids lancet vol duesberg peter because there proof that hiv the cause aids the hypothesis that drug use leads aids will hopefully become hindrance the physiologically azt and psychologically positive aids test toxic public health initiatives writes peter duesberg the university california berkeley the lancet march issue schechter call duesberg hypothesis that injected and orally used recreational drugs and azt lead aids hindrance public health initiatives however their hypothesis that hiv the cause aids has not attained any public health benefits the government spends billion annually but vaccine therapy prevention and aids control have resulted from work this hypothesis schechter conclude that hiv has key role depletion and aids based epidemiological correlations with antibodies against hiv and with self reported recreational drug use among homosexuals from vancouver however their survey neglects disprove duesberg drug aids hypothesis because does not provide controls confirmed drug free aids cases and because does not quantify drug use and ignores azt use altogether refute duesberg hypothesis schechter would have produce controlled study demonstrating that over period years hiv positive patients who use recreational drugs azt both have the same aids risks positives who not the year period claimed hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april proponents the hiv hypothesis the time needed for hiv cause aids alternatively they could show that hiv free individuals who have used drugs for years never get aids defining illnesses concludes duesberg rapid decline cells after ifna treatment hiv infection lancet vol vento sandro interferon ifn which induces autoantibodies and autoimmune diseases some settings may hasten cell loss some hiv infected individuals through the amplification harmful autoimmune reactions write sandro vento the pugliese hospital catanzaro italy the researchers report three asymptomatic hiv infected individuals with hepatitis virus related chronic active hepatitis cah who had rapid profound decline cells after ifn all three patients throughout the observation were consistently negative for serum hiv antigen and had circulating antibodies sera from all three patients obtained the end ifn treatment and testing enzyme linked immunosorbent assay contained high titres antibodies reacting sequence located the aminoterminal the beta chain all human hla class antigens homologous sequence located the carboxy terminus hiv these autoantibodies which also recognize native class molecules and may contribute the elimination cells vivo were low tires all three patients six months after stopping ifn such autoantibodies were not detected other patients with hiv infection and hcv related cah treated with ifn and who did not experience cell loss some hiv infected individuals through the amplification harmful autoimmune reactions the subjects had and hla antigen combinations which are linked with more rapid fall cell counts and clinical progression hiv disease ifn can induce very rapid decline cells and should used cautiously patients with these hla haplotypes the researchers conclude april makes comeback state government news vol voit william and knapp elaine although tuberculosis was once believed eliminated the united states emerging again among the homeless aids patients immigrants minorities and prisoners lee reichman professor medicine the university new jersey medical school and president the american lung association said right now big city problem but potentially everyone problem the ala predicts that million americans are infected with and about percent them will develop the disease because their immune systems are depressed especially those with aids hiv gene hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april tammes centers for disease control expert said that why the cdc has issued guidelines warning hospitals and institutions not mix aids with patients state health officials believe the also spreading because those who are most susceptible are the least likely follow through with treatment addition the increase attributed shortage public health services new york city epidemic because the number cases increasing faster than can treat people said george diferdinando director the new york state control according diferdinando curbing the spread entails keeping percent more diagnosed cases treatment about percent infected new york city residents don complete therapy when patients don finish taking their medication multi drug resistant can develop which requires taking more expensive drugs and can take two years instead the normal six months treat increasing frequency heterosexually transmitted aids southern florida artifact reality american journal public health vol nwanyanwu okey the alarmingly high rate heterosexually acquired aids cases southern florida was partially related misclassification risk write okey nwanyanwu the centers for disease control atlanta the researchers investigated such aids cases from broward and coastal palm beach counties all these cases attributed heterosexual transmission reported sexual contact with bisexual men injecting drug users persons born countries where heterosexual contact the primary route hiv transmission medical records patients addition records from social services hiv counseling and testing centers and sexually transmitted disease std clinics were reviewed other hiv risk factor was found from medical record review patients were interviewed using standardized questionnaire once std clinic and other medical records were reviewed men and women were reclassified into other hiv transmission categories after adjustments were made for the reclassification the percentage aids cases reported from palm beach and broward counties between january and march that was attributed heterosexual transmission decreased from percent percent among men and from percent percent among women while the percentage heterosexually transmitted aids cases southern florida decreased after adjustment was made for reclassified cases still remained above the national average the researchers conclude hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april aids statistics world health organization geneva organisation mondiale sante geneve weekly epidemiological record releve epidemiologique hebdomadaire january year acquired immunodeficiency syndrome aids data december syndrome immunodeficience acquise sida donnees decembre number date cases report country area nombre date pays territoire cas notifi cation africa afrique algeria algerie angola benin benin botswana burkina faso burundi cameroon cameroun cape verde cap vert central african republic republique centrafricaine chad tchad comoros comores congo cote ivoire djibouti egypt egypte equatorial guinea guinee equatoriale ethiopia ethiopie hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april gabon gambia gambie ghana guinea guinee guinea bissau guinee bissau kenya lesotho liberia liberia libyan arab jamahiriya jamahiriya arabe libyenne madagascar malawi mali mauritania mauritanie mauritius maurice morocco maroc mozambique namibia namibie niger nigeria nigeria reunion reunion rwanda sao tome and principe sao tome principe senegal senegal seychelles sierra leone somalia somalie south africa afrique sud sudan soudan swaziland togo tunisia tunisie uganda ouganda united republic tanzania republique unie tanzanie zaire zaire zambia zambie zimbabwe total hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april americas ameriques anguilla antigua and barbuda antigua barbuda argentina argentine bahamas barbados barbade belize bermuda bermudes bolivia bolivie brazil bresil british virgin islands iles vierges britanniques canada cayman islands iles caimanes chile chili colombia colombie costa rica cuba dominica dominique dominican republic republique dominicaine ecuador equateur salvador french guiana guyane francaise grenada grenade guadeloupe guatemala guyana haiti haiti honduras jamaica jamaique martinique mexico mexique montserrat netherlands antilles and aruba antilles neerlandaises aruba nicaragua panama paraguay peru perou hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april saint kitts and nevis saint kitts nevis saint lucia sainte lucie saint vincent and the grenadines saint vincent grenadines suriname trinidad and tobago trinite tobago turks and caicos islands iles turques caiques united states america etats unis amerique uruguay venezuela total asia asie afghanistan bahrain bahrein bangladesh bhutan bhoutan brunei darussalam brunei darussalam burma see myanmar birmanie voir myanmar cambodia cambodge china chine cyprus chypre democratic people republic korea republique populaire democratique coree hong kong india inde indonesia indonesie iran islamic republic iran republique islamique iraq israel israel hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april japan japon jordan jordanie kuwait koweit lao people democratic republic republique democratique populaire lao lebanon liban macao malaysia malaisie maldives mongolia mongolie myanmar nepal nepal oman pakistan philippines qatar republic korea republique coree saudi arabia arabie saoudite singapore singapour sri lanka syrian arab republic republique arabe syrienne thailand thailande turkey turquie united arab emirates emirats arabes unis viet nam yemen yemen total europe albania albanie austria autriche belarus belarus belgium belgique bulgaria bulgarie czechoslovakia tchecoslovaquie denmark danemark finland finlande hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april france germany allemagne greece grece hungary hongrie iceland islande ireland irlande italy italie latvia lettonie lithuania lituanie luxembourg malta malte monaco netherlands pays bas norway norvege poland pologne portugal romania roumanie russian federation federation russie san marino saint marin spain espagne sweden suede switzerland suisse united kingdom royaume uni yugoslavia yougoslavie total oceania oceanie american samoa samoa americaines australia australie cook islands iles cook federated states micronesia etats federes micronesie fiji fidji french polynesia polynesie francaise guam kiribati mariana islands iles mariannes marshall islands iles marshall nauru new caledonia and dependencies hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april nouvelle caledonie dependances new zealand nouvelle zelande niue palau papua new guinea papouasie nouvelle guinee samoa solomon islands iles salomon tokelau tonga tuvalu vanuatu wallis and futuna islands iles wallis futuna total world total total mondial the above statistics relating china not include cases aids the province taiwan les statistiques dessus rapportant chine comprennent pas cas sida dans province taiwan refers republics and areas the former socialist federal republic yugoslavia bosnia and herzegovina croatia macedonia montenegro serbia slovenia refere aux republiques territoires ancienne republique federative socialiste yougoslavie bosnie herzegovine croatie macedoine montenegro serbie slovenie hicnet medical newsletter page cut here this the last part internet david stat com fax bitnet atw asuacad fidonet amateur packet tpy tpy usa
sci.med	hicn medical news part cut here once year for lifetime video kit this kit includes minute vhs videotape that presents common misconceptions about mammography tells the benefits gains the early detection breast cancer jane pauley and phylicia rashad are the narrators kit includes guide poster flyer and pamphlets mammography this kit available directly writing modern park street north petersburg additional resources combined health information database chid computerized bibliographic database developed and managed agencies the public health service contains references health information and health education resources the database provides bibliographic citations and abstracts for journal articles books reports pamphlets audiovisuals product descriptions hard find information sources and health promotion and education programs under way state and local health departments and other locations addition chid provides source and availability information for these materials that users may obtain them directly present there are twenty one subfiles chid the national cancer institute created the cancer patient education subfile serves resource for the chid user who interested identifying patient education programs for specific cancer patient populations well for the user who trying locate educational resources available for patient family cancer education citations include the contact person cancer centers the user can follow directly with the appropriate person access chid check with your local library most medical school university hospital and public libraries subscribe commercial database vendors hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april final report integrated oncology workstation revised this book provides conceptual overview what clinical information system for practicing oncologists might include database electronic patient chart records combined with access knowledge base information resources such pdq cancerlit and medline integration data and knowledge combined create clinical oncology workstation the concept was developed means assist the oncologist and his her office staff the daily management patient care and clinical trials this book can obtained contacting robert esterhay project officer computer communications branch building room bethesda scientific information services the national cancer institute this booklet from the international cancer information center icic describes each icic product service including scientific journals journal the national cancer institute and nci monographs specialized current awareness publications cancergrams and oncology overviews and online databases pdq and cancerlit obtain copies the booklet write international cancer information center dept jjj national cancer institute bldg bethesda maryland fax your request hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april publications for patients available from the nci free copies the following patient education materials are available single copy bulk calling the nci publication ordering service cancer cancer prevention chew snuff real bad stuff this brochure designed for seventh and eighth graders describes the health and social effects using smokeless tobacco products when fully opened the brochure can used poster clearing the air guide quitting smoking this pamphlet designed help the smoker who wants quit offers variety approaches cessation pages diet nutrition cancer prevention the good news this booklet provides overview dietary guidelines that may assist individuals reducing their risks for some cancers identifies certain foods choose more often and others choose less often the context total health promoting diet pages why you smoke this pamphlet contains self test determine why people smoke and suggests alternatives and substitutes that can help them stop early detection breast exams what you should know this pamphlet provides answers questions about breast cancer screening methods including mammography the medical checkup breast self examination and future technologies includes instructions for breast self examination pages cancer tests you should know about guide for people and over this pamphlet describes the cancer tests important for people age and older informs men and women the exams they should requesting when they schedule checkups with their doctors provides checklist for men and women record when the cancer tests occur and describes the steps follow hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april should cancer found pages the right thing get mammogram this brochure targets black women age older describes the importance regular mammograms the early detection breast cancer states the nci guidelines for mammography once year for lifetime this brochure targets all women age older describes the importance regular mammograms the early detection breast cancer states the nci guidelines for mammography questions and answers about breast lumps this pamphlet describes some the most common noncancerous breast lumps and what can done about them includes instructions for breast self examination pages questions and answers about choosing mammography facility this brochure lists questions ask selecting quality mammography facility also discusses typical costs and coverage testicular self examination this pamphlet contains information about risks and symptoms testicular cancer and provides instructions how perform testicular self examination the pap test can save your life this easy read pamphlet tells women the importance getting pap test explains who should request one how often should done and where get pap test general research reports depth reports covering current knowledge the causes and prevention symptoms detection and diagnosis and treatment various types cancer individual reports are available the following topics bone marrow transplantation cancer the colon and rectum cancer the lung cancer the pancreas melanoma hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april oral cancers the immune system how works this booklet written high school level explains the human immune system for the general public describes the sophistication the body immune responses the impact immune disorders and the relation the immune system cancer therapies present and future pages what you need know about cancer this series pamphlets discusses symptoms diagnosis treatment emotional issues and questions ask the doctor includes glossary terms and other resources individual pamphlets are available the following topics bladder bone brain breast cervix colon and rectum dysplastic nevi esophagus hodgkin disease kidney larynx lung melanoma multiple myeloma non hodgkin lymphoma oral cancers ovary pancreas prostate skin testis uterus patient education anticancer drug information sheets spanish english two sided fact sheets english and spanish provide information about side effects common drugs used treat cancer their hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april proper usage and precautions for patients the fact sheets were prepared the united states pharmacopeial convention inc for distribution the national cancer institute single sets only may ordered advanced cancer living each day this booklet addresses coping with terminal illness discussing practical considerations for the patient the family and friends pages chemotherapy and you guide self help during treatment this booklet question and answer format addresses problems and concerns patients receiving chemotherapy emphasis explanation and self help pages eating hints recipes and tips for better nutrition during cancer treatment this cookbook style booklet includes recipes and suggestions for maintaining optimum nutrition during treatment all recipes have been tested pages facing forward guide for cancer survivors this booklet presents concise overview important survivor issues including ongoing health needs psychosocial concerns insurance and employment easy use format includes cancer survivors experiences practical tips recordkeeping forms and resources recommended for cancer survivors their family and friends pages patient patient cancer clinical trials and you this minute videocassette provides simple information for patients and families about the clinical trials process produced collaboration with the american college surgeons commission cancer questions and answers about pain control guide for people with cancer and their families this booklet discusses pain control using both medical and nonmedical methods the emphasis explanation self help and patient participation this booklet also available from the american cancer society pages radiation therapy and you guide self help during treatment this booklet addresses concerns patients receiving forms radiation therapy emphasis explanation and self help pages hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april taking time support for people with cancer and the people who care about them this sensitively written booklet for persons with cancer and their families addresses the feelings and concerns others similar situations and how they have coped pages what are clinical trials all about this booklet designed for patients who are considering taking part research for new cancer treatments explains clinical trials patients easy understand terms and gives them information that will help them decide about participating pages when cancer recurs meeting the challenge again this booklet details the different types recurrence types treatment and coping with cancer return pages breast cancer education series breast biopsy what you should know this booklet discusses biopsy procedures describes what expect the hospital and while awaiting diagnosis pages breast cancer understanding treatment options this booklet summarizes the biopsy procedure and examines the pros and cons various types breast surgery discusses lumpectomy and radiation therapy primary treatment adjuvant therapy and the process making treatment decisions pages mastectomy treatment for breast cancer this booklet presents information about the different types breast surgery explains what expect the hospital and during the recovery period following breast cancer surgery breast self examination for mastectomy patients also described pages after breast cancer guide followup care this booklet for the woman who has completed treatment explains the importance checking for possible signs recurring cancer receiving regular mammograms getting breast exams from doctor and continuing monthly breast self exams offers advice for managing the physical and emotional side effects that may accompany surviving breast hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april cancer pages pediatric cancer education series help yourself tips for teenagers with cancer this magazine style booklet designed provide information and support adolescents with cancer issues addressed include reactions diagnosis relationships with family and friends school attendance and body image pages hospital days treatment ways this hematology oncology coloring book helps orient the child with cancer hospital and treatment procedures pages managing your child eating problems during cancer treatment this booklet contains information about the importance nutrition the side effects cancer and its treatment ways encourage child eat and special diets pages talking with your child about cancer this booklet designed for the parent whose child has been diagnosed with cancer addresses the health related concerns young people different ages suggests ways discuss disease related issues with the child pages when someone your family has cancer this booklet written for young people whose parent sibling has cancer includes sections the disease its treatment and emotional concerns pages young people with cancer handbook for parents this booklet discusses the most common types childhood cancer treatments and side effects and issues that may arise when child diagnosed with cancer offers medical information and practical tips gathered from the experience others pages spanish language publications desea hablar con especialista informacion sobre cancer por favor llame cancer cancer prevention hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april time change nina mujer this bilingual fotonovela was developed specifically for young women discusses various health promotion issues such nutrition smoking exercise and pelvic pap and breast examinations pages datos sobre habito fumar recomendaciones para dejar fumar this bilingual pamphlet describes the health risks smoking and tips how quit and how stay quit pages guia para dejar fumar this booklet full color self help smoking cessation booklet prepared specifically for spanish speaking americans was developed the university california san francisco under nci research grant pages early detection hagase prueba pap hagalo hoy por salud familia this bilingual brochure tells women why important get pap test gives brief clear information about who needs pap test where get one and how often the pap test should done hagase mamograma una vez ano para toda una vida this bilingual brochure describes the importance mammograms the early detection breast cancer gives brief information about who risk for breast cancer how mammogram done and how get one prueba pap metodo para diagnosticar cancer del cuello del utero this booklet spanish answers questions about the pap test including how often should done significance results and other diagnostic tests and treatments pages que usted debe saber sobre los examenes los senos this booklet spanish explains the importance the three actions recommended the nci detect breast cancer early possible requesting regular mammography getting annual breast exam from the doctor and performing monthly breast self exam pages hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april preguntas respuestas sobre seleccion centro mamografia this brochure lists questions and answers ask selecting quality mammography facility patient education anticancer drug information sheets spanish english two sided fact sheets english and spanish provide information about side effects common drugs used treat cancer their proper usage and precautions for patients the fact sheets were prepared the united states pharmacopeial convention inc for distribution the national cancer institute single sets only may ordered datos sobre tratamiento quimioterapia contra cancer this flyer spanish provides brief introduction cancer chemotherapy pages tratamiento radioterapia guia para paciente durante tratamiento this booklet spanish addresses the concerns patients receiving radiation therapy for cancer emphasis explanation and self help pages hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april aids news summaries aids daily summary for april april the centers for disease control and prevention cdc national aids clearinghouse makes available the following information public service only providing this information does not constitute endorsement the cdc the cdc clearinghouse any other organization reproduction this text encouraged however copies may not sold copyright information inc bethesda april absence hiv transmission from infected orthopedic surgeon journal the american medical association vol von reyn fordham the risk hiv transmission from hiv positive surgeon patient extremely low provided that the surgeon strictly adheres universal infection control procedures write fordham von reyn the dartmouth hitchcock medical center lebanon the researchers contacted former patients whom hiv positive orthopedic surgeon performed invasive procedures between january and june the orthopedic surgeon voluntarily withdrew from practice after testing positive for hiv total former patients underwent hiv testing representing percent patients whom the orthopedic surgeon performed invasive procedures during the year period patients were tested from each year and from each category invasive procedure all patients were found negative for hiv enzyme linked immunosorbent assay two former patients reported known hiv infection prior surgery the examination aids case registries and vital records neglected detect cases hiv infection among former surgical patients the estimated cost the initial patient notification and testing was with the single most expensive activity being counseling and testing this accounted for percent the total expense the patient notification and testing were conducted while maintaining the confidentiality the orthopedic surgeon who was active participant the planning and execution the study notifying patients the infected surgeon hiv status both disruptive and expensive and not routinely recommended the researchers conclude investigation potential hiv transmission the patients hiv infected surgeon journal the american medical association vol hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april smith rogers audrey the risk hiv transmission during surgery remote that will quantified only gathering data from multiple methodologically similar investigations writes audrey smith rogers the johns hopkins university school medicine baltimore the researchers identified total persons hospital databases who underwent invasive surgical procedures between and and for whom the hiv positive surgeon was listed the operating surgeon the aids case registries were reviewed for all patients having undergone invasive procedures and death certificates were obtained among the patients were dead had address had test results known and did not respond the questionnaire study patient name was found reported aids case registries one newly detected hiv positive patient was determined have been most probably infected during transfusion there was hiv transmission person hours surgical exposure suggesting that hiv transmission patients unlikely occur more frequently than once per person hours surgical exposure the researchers determined there evidence suggest that the surgeon failed adhere standard infection control guidelines over percent the patients with invasive procedures chose tested and those whose results were revealed only one person was found infected with hiv the study patient infection was probably the result tainted blood transfusion received result there evidence that the transmission hiv from the hiv positive surgeon any patient transpired the researchers conclude april drug concerns share aids data new york times kolata gina total major pharmaceutical companies have decided highly unusual move share aids drugs and information while the drugs are undergoing early clinical testing edward scolnick president the merck research laboratory rahway arranged the collaboration said that cooperation between companies seemed increasingly significant had become clear that combinations drugs were likely more effective fighting hiv than any drug used alone the researchers are hopeful that hiv when faced with combination several drugs requiring mutation different sites for resistance develop will unable evolve all the mutations the same time therefore several drugs taken together one after the other could halt the spread hiv currently the drug companies not know what other drugs their competitors are developing the new agreement allows companies routinely exchange animal data and safety data new aids drugs agreement like this will greatly facilitate hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april companies ability choose the best drug combinations much faster and much more efficient way said scolnick also said that the collaboration would not violate antitrust laws creating the agreement merck spoke frequently members aids advocacy groups including act daniel hoth director the division aids the national institute allergy and infectious disease said delighted see the pharmaceutical industry take this step because think that increasing the information flow will likely accelerate the discovery better compounds for aids related stories wall street journal philadelphia inquirer usa today the next step aids treatment nature vol maddox john although azt was found ineffective prolonging the lives people infected with hiv the findings not indicate that azt should not administered people with full blown aids writes columnist john maddox azt has been used the united states asymptomatic hiv positive people the basis that administration the drug appeared abate the decline cell counts however report the lancet demonstrated that azt should not used early the course disease while the counts the people given azt were consistently greater than those patients receiving only placebo the first three years follow have shown that the proportions people the two groups progressing overt aids even death were not significantly different roughly percent the conclusions are that azt not effective aids drug hiv infected individuals and that cell count may not reliable proxy for the progression aids infected people but nothing implied the study the utility azt the treatment those whom symptoms have already appeared there case for abandoning that treatment least the evidence now available much more alarming that the count has proven unreliable mark the efficacy drug treatment hiv infection aids researchers should acknowledge hiv alive from the beginning infection and turn into workable assay the progress disease the general application such assay will probably itself provide better understanding the pathogenesis aids concludes maddox infective and anti infective properties breastmilk from hiv infected women lancet vol van perre philippe vaccine preparation inducing persistent immune response the igm type the mother body fluids could valuable prevent transmission hiv from mother child write philippe van perre the hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april national aids control program kigali rwanda the researchers hypothesized that transmission hiv through breastmilk could favored the presence infected cells deficiency anti infective substances breastmilk both factors total hiv infected women were enrolled delivery kigali rwanda milk samples were collected days months and months post partum hiv igg secretory iga and igm were assayed western blot for the latter two after removal igg with protein the day and month samples the researchers sought viral genome milk cells double polymerase chain reaction with three sets primers gag pol and env days months and months post partum hiv specific igg was detected percent percent and percent breastmilk samples iga percent percent and percent and igm percent percent and percent children who survived longer than months the risk infection was associated with lack persistence igm and iga their mothers milk the presence hiv infected cells the milk days post partum was strongly predictive hiv infection the child both univariate and multivariate analysis the combination hiv infected cells breastmilk and defective igm response was the strongest predictor infection igm and iga anti hiv breastmilk may protect against postnatal transmission hiv the researchers conclude april firms share aids research global venture journal commerce total fifteen and european pharmaceutical companies announced tuesday they will swap drug supplies and information early stage aids research hasten the search for combination therapies fight hiv infection and aids the companies said the unusual move resulted primarily from the increasing concentration aids research combination therapies since realizing that hiv likely develop resistance every individual aids drug edward scolnick president merck research laboratories led the collaborative effort that took year negotiations come together said participants addition merck the other companies involved the inter company collaboration for aids drug development are bristol myers squibb burroughs wellcome glaxo inc hoffman roche eli lilly pfizer inc smithkline beecham astra pont merck syntex inc boehringer ingelheim miles inc and sigma tau the participants said that all companies involved aids drug development they were aware had joined the collaboration and that any company actively involved hiv anti viral development may participate scolnick said the collaborators would most likely meet every couple months for daylong scientific meeting where they will review for one another their preclinical hicnet medical newsletter page volume number april and early clinical data the american foundation for aids research amfar was pleased with the news the collaboration which hopes will lead the development drug combinations that will reduce viral resistance related story financial times guidance over hiv infected health care workers lancet vol horton richard the united kingdom department health recently followed the advice aids experts that there scientific reason for routine hiv testing among health care workers following recent highly publicized reports health professionals who contracted hiv the department issued revised guidelines the management such cases kenneth calman chief medical officer said doctors dentists nurses and other health care workers have ethical duty seek advice they have been exposed hiv infection including appropriate diagnostic hiv testing said infected health care workers should not perform invasive procedures that carry even remote risk exposing patients the virus the guidelines end part internet david stat com fax bitnet atw asuacad fidonet amateur packet tpy tpy usa
sci.med	frequent nosebleeds from some the replies original posting evident that some people not secrete enough mucous keep their nose lining protected include small amounts hot spicy foods with your meals not cure but many people find helpful create extra mucus you may also consider taking few drops iodine juice water consult your doctor first which available otc canada you have sedentary lifestyle exercising sometimes helps from environmental influences dry air but had responses from anyone with experience with rutin there another newsgroup that might have specifics herbal remedies robert allison tried mail you but our board having internet problems not sure whether you got the information rutin not rutin not herb but part the bioflavonoid complex you should generally not take rutin itself but take the whole bioflavonoid complex instead you don and there are some exceptions that you eventually create hesperidin deficiency which the other major component the bioflavonoid complex found out the hard way years ago when recommended rutin after showed deficient patients who were not deficient hesperidin fore later retest almost always showed subsequent deficiency hesperidin which from then made always add bioflavonoids anyone that had very low levels rutin most the time people are equally low rutin and hesperidin there really reason take rutin itself but use the whole bioflavonoid complex instead have several thousand patients taking them with many claiming that they had been helped with hemorrhoids varicose veins chronic nose bleeds aneurysms gastro intestinal bleeding due drugs etc one patient desperation took whole bottle one day for his painful bleeding hemorrhoids without any ill effects they are also non toxic very high amounts that why they can safely recommended you are allergic citrus fruit they are made from their peels pine bark sources are available well about patients tested show bioflavonoid deficiency with the average daily dosage needed being about for major complaints day common case they cannot taken because their size and taste they are big and they don taste that great product made from pine bark extract gives you the same effect and the tablets are quite small and taste much better however the cost about seven times higher for the equivalent effect one tablet the pine bark extract gives you about the same effect bioflavonoids the name for the pine bark product pycnogenol some canadian brands carrying bioflavonoids are quest big bitter not chewable swiss herbal smooth easier swallowing jamieson medium bitter chewable sisu pycnogenol small easy swallowing give them try and see what happens and good luck ron roth internet rose com rosenet ron roth rosehamilton eating radium has strange results tom said brightly rosereader entered rosehamilton rosemail usenet rose media hamilton
sci.med	pregnency without sex article stephen mont stephen mont missouri edu stephen montgomery smith writes when was school boy biology teacher told incident which couple were very passionate without actually having sexual intercourse somehow the girl became pregnent sperm cells made their way her through the clothes via persperation was biology teacher misinforming such incidents actually occur sounds like someone was pulling your leg there only one way for pregnancy occur intercourse these days however there also artificial insemination and implantation techniques but speaking natural acts here possible for pregnancy occur semen deposited just outside the vagina coitus interruptus but that about far you can get through clothes way better talk your biology teacher kenneth gilbert university pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not programmer
sci.med	artificial intelligence medicine you have any information artificial intelligence medicine then would appreciate you could mail with whatever the informations needed for project thank you ian ian jukes bsc computer science hons year the university brighton janet mail ipj bton unix ipj bton vms
sci.med	sleep hospitals was euse haldol elderly article yfqmlek andrew cmu edu you say seen people their forties and fifties become disoriented and demented during hospital stays the examples seen drugs were definitely involved speaking from experience one doesn need drugs become disoriented during hospital stays was hosp for days late jan what with general noise all hours night staff coming every time turned over whatever check out didn get much sustained sleep night spent days groggy dozing and all was from perspective was that was tired bobm let reinvent hospital organization
sci.med	localized fat reduction due exercise question apr mnemosyne edu hchung nyx edu writes was just wondering exercises specific particular regions the body such thighs will basically only tone the thighs fat from other parts the body such breasts would affected just much there are two different mechanisms here toning muscles and reduction fat exercises specific particular muscles will tone only those muscles exercised example look differences arm circumferences between pitching arms and non pitching arms major league pitchers however exercise also leads reduction body fat the loss body fat will equally distributed over the entire body there way spot reduce body fat other than surgically through liposuction distribution body fat genetically determined sometimes very flabby muscle will look like fat when that muscle gains some muscle tone may appear though the fat changing into muscle but really fat and muscle tissues are totally separate and one does not ever change into the other ruth ginzberg rginzberg eagle wesleyan edu philosophy department wesleyan university usa
sci.med	krillean photography article apr scorch apana org bill scorch apana org bill dowding writes todamhyp charles unlv edu brian huey writes think that the correct spelling looking for any information supplies that will allow yourselfers take krillean pictures thinking that education suppliers for schools might have appartus for sale but don know any the companies any info greatly appreciated krillean photography involves taking pictures minute decapods resident the seas surrounding the antarctic pictures taken them perhaps bill from bill flame intended but you way way off base simple terms kirilian photography registers the electromagnetical fields around objects simple takes pictures your aura greg still silent the rest easy
sci.med	krillean photography poor person kirlian photography try this home hold your hand cold window look closely the stunning corona effects around your fingertips remove hand from window and observe after image invent crackpot theory explain the effect
sci.med	candida yeast bloom fact fiction article apr vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes don like the term quack being applied licensed physician david questionable conduct more appropriately called unethical opinion using laetril treat cancer patients when such treatment has been shown ineffective and dangerous cyanide release the nci hmm this certainly among the things would refer quack therapy and would tend refer any practitioner who prescribed laetrile whether licensed not quack there are unethical behaviors such ordering unneccessary tests increase fees which would not lable quackish but prescribing known ineffective therapies seems one the hallmarks quack david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
sci.med	good place for back surgery hello just one quick question father has had back problem for long time and doctors have diagnosed operation needed since lives down mexico wants know there hospital anywhere the united states particulary famous for this kind surgery kind like houston has reputation for excellent doctors eye surgery any additional info pointers will appreciated whole lot thanks advance gary sheutter bell labs
sci.med	quack quack was candida yeast bloom fact fiction article ravpeinnah gap caltech edu ken isis cns caltech edu ken miller writes you have any evidence against the hypothesis for example controlled double blind studies showing that the anti fungals don any better than sugar water then let hear you don then what have anecdotal and uncontrolled evidence one side and abject disbelief the other don have any evidence against water from lourdes curing sure there anecdotal evidence that does you really think that the absence double blind study should indifferent the hypothesis that water from lourdes cures for what worth know only one double blind study nystatin for candida hypersensitivity syndrome was published the new england journal think and showed benefit systemic symptoms though think reduced vaginal yeast infections not surprisingly recall the yeast crowd had some major objections the study though don remember what they were david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
sci.med	barbecued foods and health risk thought add something the conversation girlfriend used work lab studying different natural carcinogens she mentioned once about the cancerous effect barbecued food basically she said that you eat barbecued foods with strawberries natural carcinogen the slight carcinogenic properties both cancel out each other jeff poupore jtpoupor undergrad math uwaterloo jeff poupore jtpoupor undergrad math uwaterloo
sci.med	krillean photography article apr linus mitre org gpivar maestro mitre org greg pivarnik writes article apr scorch apana org bill scorch apana org bill dowding writes krillean photography involves taking pictures minute decapods resident the seas surrounding the antarctic pictures taken them perhaps bill from bill flame intended but you way way off base simple terms kirilian photography registers the electromagnetical fields around objects simple takes pictures your aura greg still silent the rest easy greg flame intended but think you just missed one the rare attempts humor sci skeptic krillean against kirilian get btw think you bit base yourself since knowledge the electromagnetic field around stone rather abscent but still stone has nice aura the kirilian photographs don remember excactly but corona discharge think more fitting expression than aura think you find something this the skeptic faq cheers jostein
sci.med	ocd this followup previous reply this topic which has been pointed out might have been dangerously misleading two spots stated that psychotherapy meaning talking therapy and was used treat obsessive compulsive disorder which though sometimes true misleading not often found effective particularly itself primary treatment today usually consists least part drug therapy the most current theories this condition attribute more biological causes than psychological places where this distinction becomes important mentioned that the dsm iiir mentions impulses possible diagnostic marker however this might look like something people associate with psychotic conditions uncontrollable unpredictable behaviors which not the case with ocd one the diagnostic criteria ocd that the individual can and does suppress some their impulses although they are unending source anxiety the obsessive thoughts and ritualistic actions usually associated with ocd are most frequently very mundane and predictable closer superstitious nature than dangerous nature for the most part some references one non technical and several technical that someone was kind enough supply for but was unable post themself the boy who couldn stop washing judith rapaport technical refs pharmacotherapy disorder donna jermain and lynn crismon pharmacotherapy epidemiology ocd seteven rasmussen and jane eisen clin psychiatry suppl the waking nightmare overview ocd judith rapoport clin psychiatry suppl absence placebo response ocd matig mavissakalian bruce jones stephen olson nerv ment disease vol and thanks very much those who supplied constructive criticism first post ocd hope this helps clarify the parts that were misleading kind regards todd todd stark stark dwovax enet dec com digital equipment corporation philadelphia usa word the skin living thought olliver wendell holmes
sci.med	krillean photography article rgnn lli fnnews fnal gov fncrd fnal gov don husby writes poor person kirlian photography try this home hold your hand cold window look closely the stunning corona effects around your fingertips remove hand from window and observe after image invent crackpot theory explain the effect advanced kirlian photography try this home too get camera have your subject face you with his her back the sun take photo observe the glow behind their silhouetted image the photo invent crackpot theory explain the effect john mechalas not actor but mechalas ecn purdue edu play one aero engineering purdue university include disclaimer
sci.med	mind machines article snww tripos com homer tripos com webster homer writes recently learned about these devices that supposedly induce specific brain wave frequencies their users simply wearing them the principle underlying these devices well establish principle psychology called entrainment whereby external sensory stimuli influence gross electrical patterns brain function they are experimental that people experiment with them and they are not widely all used medicine for therapeutic purposes given the exception tens and similar units used for external electrical stimulation usually for pain relief not really light and sound machine they are not experimental the sense specific medical category that effect with experimental drugs the fda does not specifically regulate medical devices the way does pharmaceuticals would think that they work reported they would incredibly useful there are few reliable studies therapeutic enhancement effects for mind machines other than those relaxation related effects found with meditation self hypnosis well reported benefits are mostly anecdotal and subjective far hard generalize about their potential value pretty good general non technical introduction wide variety these devices may found would the buddha wear walkman some interesting background material names suppliers and capsule reviews specific equipment these mind machines aka light and sound machines work can they induce alpha theta and delta waves person wearing them what research any has been done them could they used lieu tranquilizer are they just another bit quackery more important question might whether they have enough additional value worth investing biofeedback was found legitimate and reliable effect experimentally under certain conditions that demonstrated that can influence physiological processes previously considered purely autonomic but never panned out particularly valuable therapeutic tool because the skill level required and the subtlety and temporary nature the effects most cases maybe someone else has more there used whole mailing list devoted mind machines somewhere the net web homer homer tripos com kind regards todd todd stark stark dwovax enet dec com digital equipment corporation philadelphia usa word the skin living thought olliver wendell holmes
sci.med	krillean photography article apr linus mitre org gpivar maestro mitre org greg pivarnik writes article apr scorch apana org bill scorch apana org bill dowding writes todamhyp charles unlv edu brian huey writes think that the correct spelling looking for any information supplies that will allow yourselfers take krillean pictures thinking that education suppliers for schools might have appartus for sale but don know any the companies any info greatly appreciated krillean photography involves taking pictures minute decapods resident the seas surrounding the antarctic pictures taken them perhaps bill from bill flame intended but you way way off base simple terms kirilian photography registers the electromagnetical fields around objects simple takes pictures your aura greg flame definitely intended here bill was making fun the misspelling look the word krill also the correct spelling kirlian involves taking photographs corona discharges created attaching the subject high voltage source not some aura works equally well with inanimate objects carl lydick internet carl sol gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol carl disclaimer hey understand vaxen and vms that what get paid for understanding astronomy purely the amateur level below unless what saying directly related vax vms don hold organization responsible for related vax vms you can try hold responsible for but organization had nothing with
sci.med	msg sensitivity superstition article krl dartvax dartmouth edu oldman coos dartmouth edu prakash das writes article apr llyene jpl nasa gov julie eddie jpl nasa gov julie kangas writes for how foods taste not allergic msg and like the taste why shouldn use saying shouldn use like saying shouldn eat spicy food because neighbor has ulcer julie doesn necessarily follow that you should use msg something else for that matter simply because you are not allergic for example you might not allergic animal fats and like their taste yet doesn follow that you should using them regularly msg might have other bad good not knowledge msg effects your body the long run maybe that reason enough not use perhaps should quit eating mushrooms soya beans and brie cheese which all have msg them occurs naturally not going quit eating something that like just because might cause trouble later causes problems some people would much rather avoid stress not worrying over what goes mouth and not spending every day reading conflicting reports what good bad for you may eat some things quantities that may not good for fine made decision and don think appropriate for anyone try convert for your own good are the most obnoxious and harmful words imo the english any other language altho your example the ulcer funny isn appropriate comparison all think get tired people saying don eat because bad well may not bad for everyone and even what give people all the information but don ram your decisions down their throats julie disclaimer all opinions here belong cat and one else
sci.med	candida yeast bloom fact fiction article rgo hsdndev harvard edu rind enterprise bih harvard edu david rind writes article apr vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes don like the term quack being applied licensed physician david questionable conduct more appropriately called unethical opinion using laetril treat cancer patients when such treatment has been shown ineffective and dangerous cyanide release the nci hmm this certainly among the things would refer quack therapy and would tend refer any practitioner who prescribed laetrile whether licensed not quack there are unethical behaviors such ordering unneccessary tests increase fees which would not lable quackish but prescribing known ineffective therapies seems one the hallmarks quack david rind one the responsibilities licensed physician read the medical literature keep with changes medical practice all the clamor over laetril resulted the nci spending quite bit money clinical trials which proved anyway that laetril was ineffective against cancer physician who continued use when better more effective treatments are available may deserve called quack anti fungals are different class the big question seems reasonable use them patients with distress sinus problems that could due candida blooms following the use broad spectrum antibiotics gorden rubenfeld through mail has assured that most physicians recognize the chance candida blooms occuring after broad spectrum antibiotic use and they therefore reinnoculate their patients with good bacteria restore competetion for candida the body not believe that this yet standard part medical practice deals with critical care patients where fungal infection systemic real problem and just because tries keep good bacteria his patients does not mean that all physicians this think that aspergillis more likely found the sinus mucus membranes than candida women have been known for very long time suffer from candida blooms the vagina and women lucky find physician who willing treat the cause and not give give her advise use the otc anti fungal creams since candida colonizes primarily the ano rectal area symptoms should more common than vaginal problems after broad spectrum antibiotic use the problem have here david proof that discomfort can caused candida bloom the arguement that without proof action warrented medicine has not and probalby never will practiced this way there has always been the use conventional wisdom very good example kidney stones conventional wisdom because clinical trails have not been done come with effective prevention was that restricitng the intake calcium and oxalates was the best way prevent kidney stones from forming clinical trials focused drugs ultrasonic blasts breakdown the stone once formed through the recent new england medicine article now know that conventional wisdom was wrong increasing calcium intake better preventing stone formation than restricting calcium intake the conventional wisdom animal husbandry has been that animals need reinnoculated with good bacteria after coming off antibiotic therapy makes sense for livestock why doesn make sense for humans david are not talking about dangerous treatment unless you consider yogurt dangerous this were standard part medical practice gordon says then the incidence distress and vaginal yeast infections should decline marty
sci.med	gas and allergic response ques this question derives from the waco incident could gas particles create allergic response which would result laryngospasm and asphyxiation especially children dnc osu com will disavow opinion and existence necessary
sci.med	krillean photography article apr scorch apana org bill scorch apana org bill dowding writes krillean photography involves taking pictures minute decapods resident the seas surrounding the antarctic pictures taken them perhaps article apr linus mitre org gpivar maestro mitre org greg pivarnik writes flame intended but you way way off base simple terms kirilian photography registers the electromagnetical fields around objects simple takes pictures your aura greg flame intended but you have discernible sense humor what bill wrote was intended funny called joke greg look into besides kirilian photography actually photography friend two year old son kiril perhaps you meant kirlian mark meyer mmeyer dseg com texas instruments inc plano every day jerry junkins grateful that don speak for you have triggered primary defense mechanism blast affirmative
sci.med	barbecued foods and health risk article sqv edb acsu buffalo edu sfegus ubvm buffalo edu wrote article cup portal com mmm cup portal com mark robert thorson writes odd exception the rule seems the product known gumbo file this nothing more than coarsely ground dried sassafras leaves this not only natural product but natural product still its natural form maybe that how they evade delany maybe special exemption was made appease powerful louisiana democrats one possible reason that file made with sassafras leaves while root beer was made with sassafras bark root bark the leaves contain either less saffrole than the bark there also some sort treatment which putatively removes saffrole from sassafras products have some concentrated sassafras tea extract which claimed have the saffrole removed think what have keep mind that even though may illegal commercially produce sell food with carcinogenic substances not illegal for people such their own food smoking etc this true well the last time that went the store buy sassafras bark make root beer there was sign saying that wasn sold for human consumption also when asked the person they had wild cherry bark and wintergreen bark she made point telling that couldn buy sassafras for human consumption find the fact that some people reckless enough step into automobile live fear dropping dead because pork rib quite funny sick way eric pepke internet pepke scri fsu edu supercomputer computations research institute mfenet pepke fsu florida state university span scri pepke tallahassee bitnet pepke fsu disclaimer employers seldom even listen opinions meta disclaimer any society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers
sci.med	mind machines use zygon mind machine bought the usa last year although wonder cure for what ail you however very good stopping you thinking sound strange well suppose you tired and want bed sleep but your head full niggling problems resolve you lay the bed and quickly they all come the surface churning around from one unresolved thing the next and then back again been there bought the shirt slip the zygon and select soothing pattern light sound and quickly just can concentrate the previous stuff your brain cache kinda get flushed and you start whole new set stuff useful addition the facility feed the output tape player through the box use new age elevator muzak enhance the overall effect deffo better than pill cheers nigel nigel ballard int nigel dataman demon pink bournemouth cis radio hoi therefore spam
sci.med	patti duke problem does anyone have information about the struggles that patti duke went through her personal life with severe mood swings did she have some form chemical imbalance that triggered these problems recall that she wrote book about her troubles does someone have the title that book
sci.med	tick fever aka rocky mtn spotted any rocky mountain spotted fever experts out there the doctor thinks friend might have this the question doesn the tick have bite you you frequently find tick crawling you after walk the woods around here but you tend notice before bites you pulling one out your skin something you not likely forget can you get the fever without biting you they sometimes bite you and then let you don realize you were bitten know they will let once they had their fill but you certainly would notice this arggh how you get the fever you never pulled tick off yourself opposed finding one merely crawling you john eyles jge unc edu
sci.med	chelation therapy does anyone here know anything about chelation therapy using edta uncle has emphesema and doctor wants try him are wondering there any evidence edta chelation therapy beneficial for his condition any condition what possible side effects are there how can they mimimized please respond via mail rme cornell edu thanks renee
sci.med	patti duke problem article apr hemlock cray com cray com writes does anyone have information about the struggles that patti duke went through her personal life with severe mood swings did she have some form chemical imbalance that triggered these problems recall that she wrote book about her troubles does someone have the title that book she published two books about her manic depressive illness call anna the autobiography patty duke patty duke and kenneth turan bantam books and brilliant madness living with manic depressive illness patty duke and gloria hochman bantam books barbara
sci.med	annual inguinal hernia repair article jpc avdms msfc nasa gov jpc avdms msfc nasa gov porter clark wrote synopsis young man with inguianl hernia one side repaired now has new hernia other side what gives asks and continues course wife thinks from sitting for long periods time the computer reading news there the possibility that there some degree constipation causing chronic straining which has caused the bowel movements the classic problems that are supposed looked for someone with hernia are constipation chronic cough colon cancer and you not too young for that and sitting for long periods time the computer reading news good luck with your surgery steve holland
sci.med	heat shock proteins the way olmstead dna not degraded the stomach nor under its degraded the duodenum under approx neutral dnaase enzymes secreted the pancreas point check your facts before yelling other people for not doing just friendly suggestion aaj
sci.med	celery and hypertension somewhere other read that when person chinese heritage was told that had high blood pressure responded eating celery sorry don recall the dosage apparently this supposed work reducing hypertension can anyone out there verify this and does work does anyone know the appropriate amounts and possible side effects thanks leon traister lmtra uts amdahl com
sci.med	opinions allergy hay fever shots article icbal asuacad bitnet icbal asuacad bitnet writes you might look for allergy doctor your area who uses sublingual drops instead shots for treatment you are given small bottle antigens drops are placed under the tongue for minutes this homeopathic remedies tried the dander one for month drops three times day didn notice any change whats ever how long were you using the drops before you noticed difference for this treatment more expensive because insurance will cover tradiitional medicine
sci.med	precocious puberty looking for network access recent research into treatments for precocious puberty you know specifics would appreciate email have plenty general textbook type references have niece whose daughter afflicted the mother and has done rather exhaustive search printed material pls email suggestions lumensa lub lamar edu thanx dale parish orange texas the surface planet the lamar token perpetual student proper place for developing vox rec dat industrial civilization
sci.med	candida yeast bloom fact fiction article apr vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes are different class the big question seems reasonable use them patients with distress sinus problems that could due candida blooms following the use broad spectrum antibiotics guess still not clear what the term candida bloom means but certainly well known that thrush superficial candidal infections mucous membranes can occur after antibiotic use this has nothing with systemic yeast syndrome the quack diagnosis that has been being discussed found the sinus mucus membranes than candida women have been known for very long time suffer from candida blooms the vagina and women lucky find physician who willing treat the cause and not give give her advise use the otc anti fungal creams lucky how since recent article randomized controlled trial oral yogurt reducing vaginal candidiasis mentioned number patients with frequent vaginal yeast infections that they could try eating ounces yogurt daily turns out most would rather just use anti fungal creams when they get yeast infections yogurt dangerous this were standard part medical practice gordon says then the incidence distress and vaginal yeast infections should decline again this just isn what the systemic yeast syndrome about and has nothing with the quack therapies that were being discussed there some evidence that attempts reinoculate the tract with bacteria after antibiotic therapy don seem very helpful reducing diarrhea but don think anyone would view this quack therapy david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
sci.med	resound hearing aids and others have fairly severe high frequency hearing loss recent rough test showed gently sloping loss down cps then falls off cliff dbs down from cps this type loss difficult fit currently using some old siemens behind the ear aids which keep roughly functional but leave lot desired recently had opportunity test the widex behind the ear aids for several weeks these have four independent programs which are intended customized for different hearing situations and can reprogramed found them definite improvement over current aids and was about ahead with them until another local outfit advertised free trial another programmable system called resound unfortunately was only able try the resound aids their office for about minutes and couldn compare them head head with the widex nevertheless did appear that they were superior and was impressed what was able read about the theory behind them which will give separate posting they also carry the widex aids and had one patient presumably wealthy who decided ahead and get the resound even though had purchased the widex only months ago the problem that the resound aids are about twice expensive the widex and other programmable aids could take trip europe the difference being lover bargains and hating spend money having hard time persuading myself with the resounds would appreciate any opinions this and other hearing aids and projections about when and might see improvements technology that aren quite expensive rich haller rhaller uoregon edu university oregon eugene usa
sci.med	discussions alt psychoactives article fpzy wbom andrew cmu edu charles nichols andrew cmu edu writes from herzog sierra lbl gov hanan herzog subject discussions alt psychoactives date apr gmt could the people discussing recreational drugs such lsd mdma etc take their discussions alt drugs their discussions will receive greatest contribution and readership there the people interested strictly smart drugs nootropics should post this group the two groups alt drugs alt psychoactives have been used interchangably lately think that alt psychoactives deceiving name alt psychoactives supposedly the smart drug newsgroup according newsgroup lists the usenet should establish alt nootropics alt sdn smart drugs nutrients have noticed some posts sci med nutrition regarding smart nutrients may lower that groups burden well beg disagree with you this subject recall correctly alt drugs was being flodded posts like how grow how use bong wow man just had the coolest trip etc there were quite few people out there who were versed pharmacology and biology who wanted discuss centrally active substabces higher level without all the other crap filling the bandwidth would suggest that you proceed create newsgroup dedicated nootropics you must have one dedicated them and leave alt psychoactives the discussion psychoactives including nootropics which are but small portion the realm centrally active substances was wondering group called sci pharmacology would relevent this would used for more formal discussion about pharmacological issues pharmacodynamics neuropharmacology etc just informal proposal don know anything about the net politics for adding newsgroup etc more alt psychoactives stuff deleted marc andersom spot colorado edu
sci.med	resound hearing aid theory understand the following based copies was given some articles published hearing instruments would appreciate any comments about this and other new technology for hearing aids the resound system was developed the basis some research and appears take different approach from other aids appears that new programmable aid like the widex just uses more flexible and programmable version the classical approach amplifying some parts the spectrum more than others and adding some compression try and help out noisy situations the major difference the resound approach that divides the spectrum into low and high frequencies splitting point programmable apparently based the fact that lots vowel information can found the low frequencies while the important consonant information unfortunately for the high frequencies the two bands then are treated with different compression schemes which are programable they have also developed new fitting algorythm that builds what they call abnormal growth loudness this latter interesting and fits own personal experience though think the phrase missleading what appears the case that you exceed the minimum threshold for person with hearing loss the deficit becomes progresslively less compared normals and the time you reach the too loud point the sensitivity curves appear converge this means that you just boost all sound levels you are overloading the high end for people with hearing losses hence what you want progressively less amplification the signal get closer the maximum tolerable point you want boost low volume sounds more than high and potentially differently for the low and high frequency parts the spectrum specially for someone like who relatively normal cps and then falls off cliff aids with simple compressors don descriminate between energy the low and high frequencies and can therefor compress useful high frequency information because high volume low frequency components particularly impressive was the resound performance with whispered speech and simulated restaurant noise situations rich haller rhaller uoregon edu university oregon eugene usa
sci.med	candida yeast bloom fact fiction banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes candida blooms following the use broad spectrum antibiotics gorden rubenfeld through mail has assured that most physicians recognize the chance candida blooms occuring after broad spectrum antibiotic use and they therefore reinnoculate their patients with good bacteria restore competetion for candida the body not believe that this yet standard part medical practice nor mine what tried explain marty was that clearly understood that antibiotic exposure risk factor for fungal infections which not the same saying bacteria prevent fungal infections marty made this sound like secret known only veternarians and biochemists anyone who has treated urinary tract infection knowns this some centers pre liver transplant patients receive bowel decontamination directed retaining good anaerobic flora attempt prevent fungal colonization this soon high risk group also use lactobacillus treat enteral nutrition associated diarrhea that may part due alterations gut flora however not part routine practice reinnoculate patients with good bacteria after antibiotics have seen data this practice preventing treating fungal infections risk patients whether not logical extension from the available observations leave those you who base strong opinions and argue over such speculations the absence clinical trials one place such therapy has been described treating particularly recalcitrant cases difficile colitis not fungal infection there are case reports using stool someone elses enemas repopulate the patients flora don try this home not give give her advise use the otc anti fungal creams since candida colonizes primarily the ano rectal area symptoms should more common than vaginal problems after broad spectrum antibiotic use except that isn least symptomatically apparent disease medicine has not and probalby never will practiced this way there has always been the use conventional wisdom very good example kidney stones conventional wisdom because clinical trails have not been done come with effective prevention was that restricitng the intake calcium and oxalates was the best way prevent kidney stones from forming clinical trials focused drugs ultrasonic blasts breakdown the stone once formed through the recent new england medicine article now know that conventional wisdom was wrong increasing calcium intake better preventing stone formation than restricting calcium intake seems like this excellent argument for ignoring anecdotal conventional wisdom euphemism for data and doing good clinical trial like dismukes wade lee dockery hain randomized double blind trial nystatin therapy for the candidiasis hypersensitivity syndrome see comments engl med dec psychological tests results the three active treatment regimens and the all placebo regimen significantly reduced both vaginal and systemic symptoms less than but nystatin did not reduce the systemic symptoms significantly more than placebo conclusions women with presumed candidiasis hypersensitivity syndrome nystatin does not reduce systemic psychological symptoms significantly more than placebo consequently the empirical recommendation long term nystatin therapy for such women appears unwarranted does this trial address every issue raised here jon noring was not surprised this negative trial since they didn use sporanox despite crook recommendation for nystatin maybe they didn avoid those carbohydrates the conventional wisdom animal husbandry has been that animals need reinnoculated with good bacteria after coming off antibiotic therapy makes sense for livestock why doesn make sense for humans david are not talking about dangerous treatment unless you consider yogurt dangerous this were standard part medical practice gordon says then the incidence distress and vaginal yeast infections should decline marty you also changed the terrain the discussion from empiric itraconazole for undocumented chronic fungal sinusitis with systemic hypersensitivity symptoms noring syndrome the yoghurt and vitamin therapy undocumented candida enteritis elaine palmer syndrome with systemic symptoms there significant difference between the cost and risk these two empiric therapeutic trials are talking about real candida infections the whole yeast connection hypothesis the efficacy routine bacterial repopulation humans the ability anecdotally effective therapies challenged negative randomized trial confirm etiologic hypothesis post hoc ergo propter hoc can seem focus disease therapy hypothesis under discussion lost
sci.med	pms can prevented diet change this question came sci med nutrition and posting answer here only medical schools the teach courses human nutrition have already seen what lack nutrition education can when candida and kidney stones present themselves the medical community think that the best example where medicine really missing the mark when comes knowledge nutrition pms many women and their husbands suffer from this disorder that really criminal that most physicians the are not taught that pms primarily caused diet and diet changes can prevent from ever happpening before shooting your flames read the entire article and then decide flaming justified from poster sci medi nutrition psychological anthropology course taking got sidetracked onto short conversation about pms some rumors shared several the students included ideas that vitamin levels sugar intake and caffeine intake might affect pms symptoms there any data this just much hooey many thanks michael wanted reply this post ever since saw but got side tracked with candida pms lot like candida blooms most physicians don recognize specific disease entity here everything that you would ever want know about pms premenstrual syndrome has been divided into four specific subgroups pmt anxiety pmt depression anxiety depression irritability forgetfulness insomnia confusion depression lethargy pmt craving pmt hyperhydration craving for sweets weight gain increased appetite breast congestion and tenderness sugar ingestion causes abdominal bloating and tenderness headache edema the face and extremities palpitations fatigue fainting pmt characterized elevated blood estrogen levels and low progesterone levels during the luteal phase women cycle pmt caused the ingestion large amounts refined simple carbohydrates during the luteal phase women cycle there increased glucose tolerance with flat glucose curve after oral glucose challenge the metabolic findings believed responsible for pmt are low magnesium and low prostaglandin this condition hypoglycemia not unique pms but there are number different causes hypoglycemia magnesium and pge seem specific pms hypoglycemia psychiatry unrefined complex carbohydrate should substituted for sugar magnesium supplementation and alpha linoleic acid supplementation increased the total calories using safflower oil evening primrose oil sources alpha linoleic acid pmt characterized elevated progesterone levels during the midluteal phase women cycle another cause pmt has been found lead toxicity women without elevated progesterone levels during the midluteal phase effect metal ions the binding estridol human endometrial cystol fertil steril pmt associated with water and salt retention along with elevated serum aldosterone level salt restriction magnesium and vitamin for breast tenderness have all been effective treating pmt this general discussion the pms syndromes came form management the premenstrual tension sundromes rational for nutritional approach year nutritional medicine bland keats publishing nutritional factors the etiology premenstrual tension syndromes reprod med premenstrual tension prob obstet gynecol treatment has traditionally involved progesterone administration you can find doctor who will treat you for pms just about hard finding one that will treat you for candida blooms while progesterone will work supplementation with vitamins and minerals works even better there really has been awful lot research done pms much more than candida blooms many these studies have been what are called experimental controlled studies the type rigorous clinical studies that doctors like see done here are few these studies carbohydrate experimental controlled study effect low fat high carbohydrate diet symptoms cyclical mastopathy lancet pts with severe persistent cyclical mastopathy least years duration were randomly selected receive specific training reduce dietary fat total calories and increase complex carbohydrate ingestion given general dietary advise with training after months there was significant reduction the severity the breast swelling and tenderness the trained group reported self reported symptoms well physical exams which quantitated the degree breast swelling tenderness and nodularity vitamin experimental controlled study the use vitamin premenstrual tension acta obstet gynecol scand pts with severe recurring pms received vitamin daily placebo serum retinol levels were monitored and high dose supplementation was discontinued when evidence toxicity occured serum retinol above the intent the study was load the liver with vitamin and get normal pool size and then see this normal vitamin pool could prevent pms getting the high dose vitamin had complete remission the symptoms pms only getting the placebo reported getting complete relief pms sysmptoms the vitamin treated group reported improvement pms symptoms experimental controlled study premenstrual tension treated with vitamin clinical endocrinology pts received vitamin daily starting day their cycle with supplementation continuing until the onset pms symptoms after months all pts reported significant improvement pms symptoms vitamin supplementation was stopped once evidence toxicity was demonstrated and all pts were followed for one year after high dose vitamin supplementation was stopped pms symptoms did not reoccur any these pts for upto one year after the vitamin supplementation was stopped most americans not have normal store vitamin their liver these studies and several others were designed see getting normal store vitamin into the liver could eliminate pms all the vitamins given for pms vitamin and vitamin vitamin has shown the best single effect this probably because vitamin involved steroid estrogen progesterone metabolism the liver getting your liver full vitamin seems one the best things that you can prevent the symptoms pms but vitamin toxic and you don want trying this without being seen physician who can monitor you for vitamin toxicity vitamin experimental double blind crossoverr study pyridoxine vitamin and the premenstrual syndrome randomized crossover trial coll gen pract women aged with moderate severe pms randomly received daily placebo after months the groups were switched and followed for another months had significant effect the emotional aspects pms depression irritability and tiredness other symptoms pms were not significanttly affected supplementation experimental double blind study the efects vitamin supplementation premenstrual sysmptoms obstet gynecol pts with moderate severe pms received daily placebo for months analysis convergence showed that significantly improved premenstrual symptoms related the autonomic nervous system dizziness and vomiting well behavior changes poor mental performance decreased social interaction anxiety depression and water retention were not improved supplementation vitamin below the rda for both american men and women birth control pills and over different drugs increase the requirement man women birth control pills should supplemented with per day the dose should increased symptoms pms appear david rubinow who heads the biological psychiatry branch nimh was quoted clin psychiatry news december stating that should considered the first line drug for pms over progesterone and the patient does not respond then other treatments should tried vitamin can toxic nerve damage consumed doses more each day vitamin experimental double blind study efficacy alpha tocopherol the treatment premenstrual syndrome reprod med pts received vitamin daily for cycles placebo vitamin treated pts had who reported significant reduction physical symptoms weight gain and breast tenderness while the placebo group had who reported significant reduction physical symptoms the vitamin group reported that had significant reduction anxiety versus for the placebo group for depression the vitamin group had with significant decrease depression compared with for the placebo group experimental double blind study the effect alpha tocopherol premenstrual symptomalogy double blind study coll nutr pts with benign breast disease and pmt randomly received vitamin daily placebo after months supplementation vitamin higher significantly improved pmt and pmt the dose was needed significantly improve pmt dose vitamin significantly improved pmt other studies have shown that higher vitamin doses will relieve pmt symptoms magnesium experimental double blind study magnesium prophylaxis menstrual migraine effects itracellular magnesium headache pts with perimenstrual headache received daily magnesium magnesium pyrrolidone carboxylic acid placebo treatment was started the day the cycle and continued until menstruation after months the pain total index was significantly lower the magnesium group magnesium treatment was also assocoiated with significant reduction the menstrual distress questionnaire scores pretreatment magnesium levels lymphocytes and polymorphonuclear leukocytes were significantly lower this group pts compared control women who did not suffer from pms after treatment magnesium levels these cells was raised into the normal range experimental double blind study oral magnesium successfully relieves premenstrual mood changes obstet gynecol pts aged randomly received either magnesium carboxylic acid per day placebo from the day the cycle the onset the menstrual flow after cycles both groups received magnesium the menstrual distress questionnaire score the cluster pain was significantly reduced during the second cycle month for the magnesium treatment group well the placebo group once they were switched magnesium supplementation addition the total score the menstrual distress questionnaire was significantly decreased magnesium supplementation the authors suggest that magnesium supplemenation should become routine treatment for the mood changes that occur during pms there are numerous observational studies that have been published the medical literature which also suggest that pms primarily disorder that arises out hormone imbalance that dietary nature but since observational studies are considered most physicians sci med anecdotal nature have not bothered cite them there are also over half dozen good experimental studies that have been done multivitamin and mineral supplementation prevent pms chosen the best specific studies individual vitamins and minerals try point out that pms primarily nutritional disorder but doctors don recognize nutritional disorders unless they can see clinical pathology beri beri pellagra scruvy etc pms probably the best reason why every doctor being trained the should get good course human nutrition pms really only the tip the iceberg when comes nutritional disorders time that medicine woke and smelled the roses here some studies which show the importance multivitamin mineral supplementation and diet change preventing pms experimental study effect nutritional programme premenstrual syndrome retrospective analysis complement med res pts were given dietary instructions and supplemented with optivite plus additional vitamin vitamin magnesium zinc and primrose oil the dietary instructions were take the supplements and switch low fat complex carbohydrate diet retrospective analysis the pts reported improvement their pms symptoms with the sample stating that they longer suffered from pms experimental double blind study role nutrition managing premenstrual tension syndromes reprod med low fat high complex carbohydrate diet along with optivite supplementation significantly decreased pms scores compared with diet change and placebo after months the experimental program the vitamin mineral supplementated group had significantly decreased estradiol and increased progesterone serum during the midlutel phase their cycle experimental double blind study clinical and biochemical effects nutritional supplementation the premenstrual syndrome reprod med pts randomly given optivite tablets per day placebo the treated groups showed significant decrease pms symptoms compared the placebo another group pts got optivite tablets per day placebo for this second group patients significant effect supplementation pms symptoms was observed martin banschbach professor biochemistry and chairman department biochemistry and microbiology osu college osteopathic medicine tulsa without discourse there remembering without remembering there learning without learning there only ignorance
sci.med	help reflux esophagitis please post your results close friend has this condition and has asked these same questions
sci.med	pregnency without sex article stephen mont stephen mont missouri edu stephen montgomery smith writes when was school boy biology teacher told incident which couple were very passionate without actually having sexual intercourse somehow the girl became pregnent sperm cells made their way her through the clothes via persperation was biology teacher misinforming such incidents actually occur ohboy here again and one wonders why the american education system such abysmal shape
sci.med	pregnency without sex article blue cis pitt edu kxgst pitt edu kenneth gilbert writes article stephen mont stephen mont missouri edu stephen montgomery smith writes when was school boy biology teacher told incident which couple were very passionate without actually having sexual intercourse somehow the girl became pregnent sperm cells made their way her through the clothes via persperation was biology teacher misinforming such incidents actually occur sounds like someone was pulling your leg there only one way for pregnancy occur intercourse these days however there also artificial insemination and implantation techniques but speaking natural acts here possible for pregnancy occur semen deposited just outside the vagina coitus interruptus but that about far you can get through clothes way better talk your biology teacher kenneth gilbert university pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not programmer what the likely hood conception sperm deposited just outside the vagina chance email scheiber sage purdue edu school nursing purdue university
sci.med	krillean photography article rgrsvinnmpr gap caltech edu carl sol gps caltech edu writes greg flame definitely intended here bill was making fun the misspelling look the word krill also the correct spelling kirlian involves taking photographs corona discharges created attaching the subject high voltage source not some aura works equally well with inanimate objects true but what about showing the missing part leaf this corona discharge that dry turtle that turtle not moist ezra story student rit and eas ultb isc rit edu his trusty mailing address
sci.med	thermogenics avid dieter and the new miracle drug seems involve thermo genics the drug claimed stimulate the brown fat burn food creating eat opposed the fat being stored there are all sorts warnings about fevers elevated blood pressure and heart rate ect the silver lining that apparently some weight loss does not require change diet this possible are the pills dangerous just hoaxes karen
sci.med	theophylline ephedrine and water bio availability does anyone know either theophylline ephedrine the two combination can reduce the body ability make use available water had kind odd experience group hike recently becoming dehyrated after about hours rigorous hiking despite having brought gallons water liters drank close twice much anyone else and one else was dehydrated don think general physical condition was issue since was least the middle the pack terms general stamina far could tell may that just plain need more water than most people but wondering theophylline and ephedrine might aggravating things took couple primatene tablets during the hike control asthma ephedrine theophylline gather that both those drugs are diuretics now wondering does that mean they can reduce the body ability utilize available water would particularly stupid thing take that medication during hot weather exercise always assumed diuresis just meant you urinated lot but that wasn the case yesterday
sci.med	chelation therapy article seinnfkc newsstand cit cornell edu renee rme cornell edu writes does anyone here know anything about chelation therapy using edta uncle has emphesema and doctor wants try him are wondering there any evidence edta chelation therapy beneficial for his condition any condition what possible side effects are there how can they mimimized please respond via mail rme cornell edu thanks renee edta chelation therapy has been used some physicians try remove calcium from calcified plaques the arterial system not approved for such use there also the possibility that lung tissue patients with lung disease has become calcified chest rays would show this there are side effects the use edta because not specific for calcium also binds other minerals think that there have been some deaths when edta chelation therapy has been used because mineral imbalances that were not detected and corrected animal studies the best way remove calcium from plaques rabbits was supplement the rabbits with vitamin and magnesium rabbits already synthesize their own vitamin the extra vitamin was given their diets help the magnesium displace the calcium from the plaques the calcification process that occurs both plaques and the lung probably can prevented magnesium used supplemental form most patietns with calcium deposits are found deficient calcium magnesium interrationships ischemic heart disease review clin nutr supplementation with magnesium will prevent clacification blood vessels the importance magnesium deficiency cardiovascular disease heart the need measure the serum concentration all patients with heat disease cannot overemphasized this review article effect dietary magnesium development atherosclerosis cholesterol fed rabbits atherosclerosis magnesium supplementation greatly decreased the formation plaques rabbits feed diet that had weight cholesterrol added their normal food since edta will also bind magnesium never really liked use for the reversal athersclerosis now apparently emphesema patients marty
sci.med	need info circumcision medical cons and pros need information the medical including emotional pros and cons circumcision birth especially interested references studies that indicate disadvantages refute studies that indicate advantages friend who medical student writing survey paper and apparently the studies she has run into are all for circumcision the main argument being lower risk penile cancer please email responses not frequent reader either group will summarize the net gunnar blix good advice one those insults that blix uiuc edu ought forgiven unknown gunnar blix good advice one those insults that blix uiuc edu ought forgiven unknown
sci.med	candida yeast bloom fact fiction article rhb hsdndev harvard edu rind enterprise bih harvard edu david rind writes article apr vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes are different class the big question seems reasonable use them patients with distress sinus problems that could due candida blooms following the use broad spectrum antibiotics guess still not clear what the term candida bloom means but certainly well known that thrush superficial candidal infections mucous membranes can occur after antibiotic use this has nothing with systemic yeast syndrome the quack diagnosis that has been being discussed found the sinus mucus membranes than candida women have been known for very long time suffer from candida blooms the vagina and women lucky find physician who willing treat the cause and not give give her advise use the otc anti fungal creams lucky how since recent article randomized controlled trial oral yogurt reducing vaginal candidiasis mentioned number patients with frequent vaginal yeast infections that they could try eating ounces yogurt daily turns out most would rather just use anti fungal creams when they get yeast infections yogurt dangerous this were standard part medical practice gordon says then the incidence distress and vaginal yeast infections should decline again this just isn what the systemic yeast syndrome about and has nothing with the quack therapies that were being discussed there some evidence that attempts reinoculate the tract with bacteria after antibiotic therapy don seem very helpful reducing diarrhea but don think anyone would view this quack therapy david rind yogurt contains lactobacillus acidophilus and bulgaricus acidophilus the major bacteria the vaginal tract and primarily responsible for keeping the vaginal tract acidic and yeast free most the commercial yogurt sold the has very low acidophilus and bulgaricus count neither these bacteria are obligate anaerobes with are much more important dealing with the diarrhea problem gordon has told through mail that gives his patients acidophilus and several different obligate anaerobes which set shop the colon but hasn told which ones yet the lactobacillus genera are mostly facultative anaerobes and will set shop where they have access oxygen given chance mouth anus sinus cavity and vagina having these good bacteria around will greatly decrease the chance candida blooms the anal region the vagina have not proposed systemic action for candida blooms know that others swear that all kinds symptoms arise from the evil yeast blooms the body not ready buy that yet believe that complications specific sites vagina anal and maybe lower colon sinus and mouth can result from antibiotic use which removes the competing bacteria from these sites and thus lets candida grow unchecked restoring the right bacterial balance the best way opinion get rid the problem anti fungals low carbohydrate diet and vitamin supplementation may all help minimize the local irritation until the good bacteria can take over control the food supply again and lower the basically starve the candida out marty
sci.med	candida yeast bloom fact fiction article rhfrkinn shelley washington edu nodrog hardy washington edu gordon rubenfeld writes banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes candida blooms following the use broad spectrum antibiotics gorden rubenfeld through mail has assured that most physicians recognize the chance candida blooms occuring after broad spectrum antibiotic use and they therefore reinnoculate their patients with good bacteria restore competetion for candida the body not believe that this yet standard part medical practice nor mine what tried explain marty was that clearly understood that antibiotic exposure risk factor for fungal infections which not the same saying bacteria prevent fungal infections marty made this sound like secret known only veternarians and biochemists anyone who has treated urinary tract infection knowns this some centers pre liver transplant patients receive bowel decontamination directed retaining good anaerobic flora attempt prevent fungal colonization this soon high risk group also use lactobacillus treat enteral nutrition associated diarrhea that may part due alterations gut flora however not part routine practice reinnoculate patients with good bacteria after antibiotics have seen data this practice preventing treating fungal infections risk patients whether not logical extension from the available observations leave those you who base strong opinions and argue over such speculations the absence clinical trials one place such therapy has been described treating particularly recalcitrant cases difficile colitis not fungal infection there are case reports using stool someone elses enemas repopulate the patients flora don try this home not give give her advise use the otc anti fungal creams since candida colonizes primarily the ano rectal area symptoms should more common than vaginal problems after broad spectrum antibiotic use except that isn least symptomatically apparent disease medicine has not and probalby never will practiced this way there has always been the use conventional wisdom very good example kidney stones conventional wisdom because clinical trails have not been done come with effective prevention was that restricitng the intake calcium and oxalates was the best way prevent kidney stones from forming clinical trials focused drugs ultrasonic blasts breakdown the stone once formed through the recent new england medicine article now know that conventional wisdom was wrong increasing calcium intake better preventing stone formation than restricting calcium intake seems like this excellent argument for ignoring anecdotal conventional wisdom euphemism for data and doing good clinical trial like dismukes wade lee dockery hain randomized double blind trial nystatin therapy for the candidiasis hypersensitivity syndrome see comments engl med dec psychological tests results the three active treatment regimens and the all placebo regimen significantly reduced both vaginal and systemic symptoms less than but nystatin did not reduce the systemic symptoms significantly more than placebo conclusions women with presumed candidiasis hypersensitivity syndrome nystatin does not reduce systemic psychological symptoms significantly more than placebo consequently the empirical recommendation long term nystatin therapy for such women appears unwarranted does this trial address every issue raised here jon noring was not surprised this negative trial since they didn use sporanox despite crook recommendation for nystatin maybe they didn avoid those carbohydrates the conventional wisdom animal husbandry has been that animals need reinnoculated with good bacteria after coming off antibiotic therapy makes sense for livestock why doesn make sense for humans david are not talking about dangerous treatment unless you consider yogurt dangerous this were standard part medical practice gordon says then the incidence distress and vaginal yeast infections should decline marty you also changed the terrain the discussion from empiric itraconazole for undocumented chronic fungal sinusitis with systemic hypersensitivity symptoms noring syndrome the yoghurt and vitamin therapy undocumented candida enteritis elaine palmer syndrome with systemic symptoms there significant difference between the cost and risk these two empiric therapeutic trials are talking about real candida infections the whole yeast connection hypothesis the efficacy routine bacterial repopulation humans the ability anecdotally effective therapies challenged negative randomized trial confirm etiologic hypothesis post hoc ergo propter hoc can seem focus disease therapy hypothesis under discussion lost candida can that you gordon think that the best clinical trial for candida blooms would involve giving women with chronic vaginal candida blooms acidophilus orally and see can decrease the frequency and extent candida blooms the vagina since most the candida seems migrating from the anal region and acidophilus should able keep the candida check can make through the intestinal tract and colonize the anus where will have access oxygen just like does the vagina much stuff there the lay press about acidophilus and vaginal yeast infections really amazed that someone has not done clinical trial yet check out the calcium and kidney stone story not good reason throw all conventional wisdom out the window where would medicine conventional wisdom had not been used develop many the standard medical practices that could not confirmed through clinical trials the clinical trial very new arrival the medical scene and very important one the lack proof that reinnoculation with good bacteria after antibiotic use important the health patient reason dismiss out hand especially reinnoculation can done cleaply and safely like animal husbandry marty
sci.med	how gain access whomever who can help doctor from kota bharu kelantan malaysia have recently hooked private home computer email via the local telephone company really interested corresponding with other doctors medical researchers through email also hope able subscribe news network medicine can someone please tell what should completely new this and have idea about the vast capabilities email thank you for your attention
sci.med	pregnency without sex article stephen mont stephen mont missouri edu stephen montgomery smith writes when was school boy biology teacher told incident which couple were very passionate without actually having sexual intercourse somehow the girl became pregnent sperm cells made their way her through the clothes via persperation was biology teacher misinforming such incidents actually occur sperm deposited near the entrance the vagina has been known cause pregnancy even the presence hymen doubt that sperm could make through layer cloth then find the right path waiting ovum but might possible possible for woman both virgin and pregnant also some hymens are sufficiently loose allow near normal intercourse without rupturing the problem when investigating these phenomenae course getting honest account what exactly happened philippe
sci.med	frozen shoulder and lawn mowing article apr cts eiu edu cfaks cts eiu edu alice sanders writes ihave had frozen shoulder for over year about year still partially frozen and still physical therapy every week but the pain has subsided almost completely until last week when mowed the lawn for twenty minutes each two days row have push type power mower the pain started back little bit for the first time quite while and used ice and medicine again can anybody explain why this particular activity which does not seem stress very much generally should cause this shoulder problem you need use your shoulder muscles push the mower you haven been doing much exercise suppose you haven then constant minute long effort can cause stiffness and cramps philippe
sci.med	occupational injuries and disease workers memorial day here press release from the american federation state county and municipal employees unions point deadly workplaces afscme other unions commemorate workers memorial day national desk labor writer contact janet rivera the american federation state county and municipal employees afl cio washington april the american federation state county and municipal employees afscme and other unions the afl cio wednesday april will commemorate the fifth annual workers memorial day day pay homage the million workers who are killed injured diseased the job this year afscme will focus its workers memorial day efforts the dangerous environment which corrections officers must work earlier this month afscme corrections officer robert vallandingham was killed inmates who overtook the corrections facility lucasville ohio the law and order agenda the has resulted steady increase the prison population for the past five years the prison population was projections show continued increase the number inmates with expected prison population the conditions which this burgeoning prison population has created for corrections officers partially reflected the number assaults inmates against staff assaults against staff increased dramatically between and and remain high there were assaults inmates against staff compared such assaults the increased number inmates has brought the dangerous combination overcrowding and understaffing for example ohio officer inmate ratio the second worst ratio the nation the national average other health and safety issues facing corrections officers include aids hepatitis tuberculosis stress and chemical hazards afscme has more than members who work the nation federal state and local correctional facilities correction officers are not alone performing their jobs under life threatening conditions every year american workers die from job related injuries and tens thousands more die from occupational disease public employees some the nation most dangerous jobs perilous occupations include highway workers highway workers are often injured and frequently killed moving traffic because work zones are not barricaded don have proper lighting health care workers hospitals have the highest number job related injuries and illnesses any private sector employer and nursing homes ranked fifth there were more than job related illnesses and injuries private sector hospitals almost percent over the previous year generally believed that health care workers employed public sector hospitals and nursing homes have significantly higher rate injuries and illnesses than their private sector counterparts health and safety issues facing health care workers include exposure tuberculosis and the hiv virus back injuries and high levels stress social workers social workers who work mental health institutions are often the victims assaults and sometimes fatal attacks for instance last october man carrying semiautomatic handgun walked into the schuyler county social services building watkins glenn and fatally shot social services workers before turning the gun himself there are two basic problems first growing lack support services for people who don have the help they need because workers are overworked some clients are not given the adequate amount counselling such conditions may cause clients become more frustrated the quality the clients also becoming more violent more are moved out the institutions nearly million workers have been killed workplace hazards since osha was passed moreover afscme president gerald mcentee explains osha does not provide workplace safety protections for public employees more than public employees are killed each year the job yet states still provide federally approved osha coverage for public employees said mcentee this despite the fact that public employees highway workers health care workers corrections officers name but few some the most dangerous work our society this year are fighting for passage osha reform legislation give all workers greater rights and protections and finally guarantee all public employees safe workplaces need the public support successful government workers suffer percent more injuries than private sector workers and these injuries are almost percent more severe public employees were exempted from osha when the law was passed and today public employees more than half the states have osha coverage canada remote systems toronto ontario
sci.med	candida yeast bloom fact fiction article nodrog hardy washington edu gordon rubenfeld writes marty you also changed the terrain the discussion from empiric itraconazole for undocumented chronic fungal sinusitis with systemic hypersensitivity symptoms noring syndrome the yoghurt and vitamin therapy undocumented candida enteritis elaine palmer syndrome with systemic symptoms there significant difference between the cost and risk these two empiric therapeutic trials are talking about real candida infections the whole yeast connection hypothesis the efficacy routine bacterial repopulation humans the ability anecdotally effective therapies challenged negative randomized trial confirm etiologic hypothesis post hoc ergo propter hoc can seem focus disease therapy hypothesis under discussion lost point beginning see that part the disagreements about the whole yeast issue differing perceptions and differing meanings words medical doctors have very specific and specialized jargon necessary for precise communication within their field which fully cognizant since too speak jargonese when with peers for the situation sci med many times the words phrases used doctors can have different and more specific meaning than the same word used the world large causing significant miscommunication one example word and very relevant the yeast discussion the exact meaning systemic now obvious that the meaning this word very specific much more than its meaning non doctor there also the observation this newsgroup that both doctors and non doctors come together essentially equal terms which when combined with the jargon issue can further fan the flames this probably the first time that practicing doctors get really beat non doctors for their views medicine which they otherwise don see much their practice except for the occasional difficult patient point understand the viewpoint among many practicing doctors that they will not prescribe any treatments therapies for their patients unless such treatments have been shown effective and the risks understood from well constructed clinical trials usually double blind that such treatments therapies are part approved and funded clinical trial these doctors any differently would this belief system unethical practice and follows that any therapy not the accepted list therefore non therapy does not even exist nor does the underlying hypothesis theory have any validity even sounds very plausible extrapolation what currently known anecdotal evidence has value either from treatment point view and and large scientist myself glad that medical practice science takes such rigorous approach medical treatment however also being human being last checked and having been one those people that has been significantly helped currently unaccepted treatment where standard medicine was not able help has caused sit back and wonder holding such extreme and rigid scientific viewpoint itself unethical from humanitarian considerations after all the underlying intent the scientific approach medicine protect the health the patient providing the best possible care for the patient the patient should come first when considering treatment what need slightly modified approach treatment that satisfies both the scientific and the humanitarian viewpoints earlier post outlined crazy idea for doing just that the gist was give any physician freedom and encouragement the medical community prescribe alternate not yet proven therapies maybe supported anecdotal evidence for patients who all avenues accepted therapies have been exhausted and not until then the patient would fully informed that such therapies treatments are not supported the proper clinical trials and that there are real potential risks with real possibilities benefit derived from them this approach satisfies the need for scientific rigor also satisfies the humanitarian needs the patient and the reality that many patients who have reached dead end the treatment their symptoms using accepted medicine will outside the orthodox medical community either the doctors who are brave enough prescribe such treatments the risk losing their license worse non doctors who have not had the proper medical training this approach also recognizes this reality and keeps the control more within orthodox medicine with the benefits that the information gleaned could help focus limited resources towards future clinical trials the most productive way everybody wins this admittedly rose colored approach sure there are real problems with this approach well presented more strawman stimulate discussion hopefully what write here may give the sci med doctors better idea why open alternative therapies well why have real difficulty read apparent hostility with the coldness the pure scientific approach medicine believe the best approach medical treatment one where both the humanitarian aspects are balanced with and the scientific aspects anything else just not good medicine imho just leanings guess comments jon noring charter member infj club you dying know what infj means brave mail send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international fred gourmet chocolate carlton place phone chips world best livermore mail who are you read alt psychology personality that where the action
sci.med	pregnency without sex article mentor purdue edu scheiber sage purdue edu jennifer scheiber writes article blue cis pitt edu kxgst pitt edu kenneth gilbert writes sounds like someone was pulling your leg there only one way for pregnancy occur intercourse these days however there also artificial insemination and implantation techniques but speaking natural acts here possible for pregnancy occur semen deposited just outside the vagina coitus interruptus but that about far you can get through clothes way better talk your biology teacher what the likely hood conception sperm deposited just outside the vagina chance hmmm really don know probably quite low overall why don get couple hundred willing couples together and find out kenneth gilbert university pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not programmer
sci.med	krillean photography article mmeyer apr dseg com mmeyer dseg com mark meyer writes besides kirilian photography actually photography friend two year old son kiril perhaps you meant kirlian think was typo for karelian photography which the practice taking pictures either finns russians depending whom one asks eli ebrandt jarthur claremont edu
sci.med	candida yeast bloom fact fiction article apr vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes neither these bacteria are obligate anaerobes with are much more important dealing with the diarrhea problem the diarrhea problem what diarrhea problem first candidal overgrowth not frequent problem during antibiotic therapy and not all cases antibiotic related diarrhea have anything with candida but case vaginal candidiasis oral thrush after antibiotic therapy isn going surprise anyone either that not what people are disagreeing with anti fungals low carbohydrate diet and vitamin supplementation may all help minimize the local irritation until the good bacteria can take over control the food supply again and lower the basically starve the candida out really where you come with this you know really appalling see you try comment authoritatively clinical matters bizarre synthesis from reading reports the literature bobbing for citations the research literature isn medicine hope you not giving the wrong idea your medical students steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima harvard rayssd linus spdcc dyer
sci.med	cats and pregnancy hello heard that certain disease toxoplasmosys transmitted cats which can harm the unborn fetus does anybody know about problem have cat the same apartment thanks klaus hofmann national institute materials and chemical research higashi tsukuba ibaraki japan
sci.med	good place for back surgery gary schuetter garyws cbnewsg att com wrote hello just one quick question father has had back problem for long time and doctors have diagnosed operation needed since lives down mexico wants know there hospital anywhere the united states particulary famous for this kind surgery kind like houston has reputation for excellent doctors eye surgery any additional info pointers will appreciated whole lot there one hospital that here new york city that famous for its orthopedists namely the hospital for special surgery they are located the upper east side manhattan you want their address and phone let know get them dont know them off hand felix the cat the wonderful wonderful cat meow hoss panix com
sci.med	krillean photography article apr ultb isc rit edu story eas ultb isc rit edu wrote article rgrsvinnmpr gap caltech edu carl sol gps caltech edu writes greg flame definitely intended here bill was making fun the misspelling look the word krill also the correct spelling kirlian involves taking photographs corona discharges created attaching the subject high voltage source not some aura works equally well with inanimate objects true but what about showing the missing part leaf this corona discharge called not wiping off the apparatus after taking picture the whole leaf gene battin battin cyclops iucf indiana edu sig yet
sci.med	med school admission all ive applied for the class quite number schools and have gotten rejects interviews and responses any one know when the heck these people send out their acceptance letters according the med school admissions book theyre supposed send out the number their class acceptances mid march whats going losing sanity checking mailbox every day also does anyone have some useful alternatives case dont get kind looked into chiropractic and podiatry but they really dont interest thanks felix the cat the wonderful wonderful cat meow hoss panix com
sci.med	please help patient mail newsserv kiae subject please help dear ladies and gentlemen should grateful for any information about address and mail address loma linda hospital approximate position usa california near vaimor town miles from los angelos patient needs consultation this clinics before operation with respect igor sidelnikov quit
sci.med	lymenet newsletter vol lyme disease electronic mail network lymenet newsletter volume number introduction announcements iii news from the wires questions answers section jargon index vii how subscribe contribute and get back issues introduction this issue the newsletter learn the cdc announced concern for the resurgence infectious diseases the united states thanks jonathan lord for sending the upi release the cdc announced they would feature new series articles the morbidity and mortality weekly report these infectious diseases one them will keep you date this series addition feature the wall street journal article the legal issues surrounding also look lyme effects from the perspective urologists abstract entitled urinary dysfunction lyme disease finally terry morse asks intriguing question about tick habitat marc announcements source the lyme disease update subject call for articles attention health care professionals the lyme disease update would like publish your articles lyme disease diagnosis lyme treatment and the effects lyme lyme patients physical and mental health the ldu has monthly circulation our mailing list includes lyme patients physicians researchers county health departments and over lyme support groups nationwide strive give our readers date information lyme disease prevention diagnosis and treatment and source for support and practical advice living with lyme disease articles for the ldu should approximately words and should address lyme disease issues non scientific language submit your article mail lyme disease update box evansville fax one year subscriptions the lyme disease update are outside the mail your subscription requests the above address call for more information iii news from the wires sender jonathan lord jml uva pcmail virginia edu subject resurgence infectious disease concerns cdc date thursday april atlanta upi resurgence infectious diseases blamed newly emerging viruses and bacteria pose major challenge for the nation health care system federal health officials said thursday the centers for disease control and prevention reporting its latest findings investigation contaminated hamburger meat that sickened hundreds states and killed least four said will put renewed emphasis battling infectious diseases part that emphasis includes new series titled emerging infectious diseases featured the cdc morbidity mortality weekly report which has wide circulation the health community the issue also will top the agenda two day meeting scientific counselors update the cdc draft plan for dealing with the growing threat infectious ailments this issue that has been coming and have responsibility deal with said ruth berkelman deputy director the cdc national center for infectious diseases there were more cases malaria the than any year since the and latin america experiencing cholera epidemic the first this century she said resistance disease causing agents antibiotics also problem are seeing much more antibiotic resistance than have the past berkleman said she said even common ear infections frequently seen children are becoming resistant antibiotic treatment despite predictions earlier this century that infectious diseases would soon eliminated public health problem infectious diseases remain the major cause death worldwide and leading cause illness and death the united states the cdc said cited the emergence since the myriad newly identified pathogens and syndromes such escherichia coli deadly bacterial infection the hepatitis virus hiv the virus that causes aids legionnaires disease lyme disease and toxic shock syndrome the incidences many diseases widely presumed under control such cholera malaria and tuberculosis have increased many areas the cdc said said efforts control and prevention have been undermined drug resistance source wall street journal reference headline lyme disease ruling raises liability issues the tick that causes lyme disease may have found new way cause damage legal liability federal judge decision holding property owner liable for not doing enough protect workers from lyme disease getting much attention the latest medical study the disease flu like illness that can cause severe physical and mental disabilities and rare instances death the decision last week has put property owners notice that they may have more than protect themselves from the ticks they also may have protect themselves from litigation someone becomes infected while the property the decision district judge robert ward new york came after week long trial case involving four track workers for the long island railroad judge ward found that the workers contracted the disease after they were bitten ticks while the job ordered the new york state owned commuter line pay the workers more than compensate for pain and suffering addition medical expenses and lost wages summer camps schools companies with facilities rural semirural areas and homeowners who rent vacationers are among the groups that need worried about this ruling says stephen kass attorney new york law firm berle kass case who wrote legal article three years ago warning property owners the potential liability even family that invites friends over for backyard barbecue might potentially liable lawsuits for insect bites while rare aren unheard summer vacationer southampton last year sued the owner the home she rented claiming that tick the property gave her rocky mountain spotted fever also long island jury ordered outdoor restaurant pay more than million patron who was stung bee causing allergic reaction and permanent quadriplegia the judge later threw out the award citing evidence that beehive was near the restaurant but lawyers say that the attention lyme disease throughout the country most prevalent new england the middle atlantic states wisconsin minnesota and the northwest may make this particular insect bite particularly litigious one the illness already has proved source controversy the courtroom over such issues the type medical care insurers will cover and medical malpractice claims against doctors for not diagnosing the disease lawyers say worker compensation claims related lyme disease have become common some states recent years payments worker compensation cases however are limited medical costs and lost earnings the case before judge ward dealt with potentially much more lucrative avenue for damages because involved the question negligence unlike the worker compensation process the law governing injuries rail workers allows for finding negligence and result for additional payments for pain and suffering property owners and lawyers say that negligence claims can made many other situations where people are exposed the ticks that carry the disease ira maurer partner new york law firm elkind flynn maurer who represented the rail workers says the decision will help establish the duty all sorts property owners protect against lyme disease lawyers caution that despite judge ward decision winning lawsuit for damages caused lyme disease may prove difficult for one thing victims have demonstrate that they have pinned down when and where they got the tick bite judge ward found that the plaintiffs the railroad case got lyme disease while working property owned the railroad even though none the men remembered being bitten the workers who weren outdoorsmen likely exposed elsewhere the insects said they saw ticks the high grass that surrounded some work sites spokeswoman for the railroad says that there was proof that the four men were bitten while the job and that the railroad considering appeal the railroad also disputes judge ward finding that didn enough protect employees the spokeswoman says the railroad provides track workers with insect repellent and special pants protect against bug bites debate the scientific community over lyme disease could open some legal defenses for property owners such questioning whether victim actually has the disease rather than some other illness earlier this week the journal the american medical association reported that doctors overly diagnose patients having lyme disease and damages awarded victim also might influenced medical disputes over the degree harm that lyme disease causes because health and safety concerns some groups and companies already take special measures protect against lyme disease last year its headquarters franklin lakes becton dickinson began using damminix pesticide made ecohealth inc boston that designed kill ticks carrying the disease the medical supply company headquarters include acre park and the company was worried that employees who walk its trails for recreation might get infected ruth lister spokeswoman for the american camping association indianapolis says that many youth camps accredited her organization also have begun check children for ticks and carole katz member the board the fire island pines property owners association says her group spends each year treat their acre site off the coast new york with the tick killing pesticide title urinary dysfunction lyme disease authors chancellor mcginnis shenot kiilholma hirsch department urology jefferson medical college thomas jefferson university philadelphia pennsylvania reference urol jan lyme disease which caused the spirochete borrelia burgdorferi associated with variety neurological sequelae describe patients with neuro borreliosis who also had lower urinary tract dysfunction urodynamic evaluation revealed detrusor hyperreflexia patients and detrusor areflexia detrusor external sphincter dyssynergia was not noted electromyography any patient observed that the urinary tract may involved respects the course lyme disease voiding dysfunction may part neuro borreliosis and the spirochete may directly invade the urinary tract patient bladder infection the lyme spirochete was documented biopsy neurological and urological symptoms all patients were slow resolve and convalescence was protracted relapses active lyme disease and residual neurological deficits were common urologists practicing areas endemic for lyme disease need aware burgdorferi infection the differential diagnosis neurogenic bladder dysfunction conservative bladder management including clean intermittent catheterization guided urodynamic evaluation recommended questions answers note you have response this question please forward the editor sender terry morse morset ccmail orst edu subject question lyme vectors and compost piles when visited sister long island was cautioned avoid the compost heap her back yard she thinks this where she became infected friend mine here oregon who has compost heap would like back that claim with documentation lyme carrying ticks hang out compost heaps thank you section this section open all subscribers who would like express opinion jargon index borrelia burgdorferi the scientific name for the bacterium cdc centers for disease control federal agency charge tracking diseases and programs prevent them cns central nervous system elisa enzyme linked immunosorbent assays common antibody test erythema migrans the name the bull eye rash that appears the patients early the infection ifa indirect fluorescent antibody common antibody test common abbreviation for lyme disease nih national institutes health federal agency that conducts medical research and issues grants research interests pcr polymerase chain reaction new test that detects the dna sequence the microbe question currently being tested for use detecting and aids spirochete the bacterium given this name due spiral shape western blot more precise antibody test vii how subscribe contribute and get back issues subscriptions anyone with internet address may subscribe send memo listserv lehigh edu the body type subscribe lymenet your real name fax subscriptions are also available send single page fax for further information deletions send memo listserv lehigh edu the body type unsubscribe lymenet contributions send all contributions lymenet lehigh edu fax them all are encouraged submit questions news items announcements and commentaries back issues send memo listserv lehigh edu the body type get lymenet newsletters where vol and issue example get lymenet newsletters will get vol issue lymenet the internet lyme disease information source editor chief marc gabriel mcg lehigh edu fax contributing editors carl brenner brenner lamont ldgo columbia edu john setel donnell jod equator com advisors carol jane stolow director william stolow president the lyme disease network new jersey chief proofreader mackey elm lehigh edu when comments are presented with attribution they not necessarily represent the opinions analyses the editor this newsletter may reproduced and posted bulletin boards freely long not modified abridged any way send all bug reports mcg lehigh edu
sci.med	can men get yeast infections can men get yeast infections spread them what kind symptoms ent doctor told that not uncommon for the wife get vaginal yeast infection after the husband takes antibiotics fact this recently happened wife explanation that the antibiotics kill the yeast competition they then thrive and increased yeast around the penis spread the infection during intercourse was ceclor for days then wife got the yeast jay keller badboy netcom com
sci.med	umbilical hernia could anyone give information umbilical hernias the patient over weight and has protruding hernia surgery may risky due the obesity what other remedies could try thanx advance gary taylor
sci.med	can men get yeast infections woman once told her doctor told her that could catch asymptomatically her yeast infection from her then give back her causing relapse probably bogus but not another reason use latex steve
sci.med	proventil inhaler article cdeb rick ysub ysu edu rick ysub ysu edu rick marsico writes does the proventil inhaler for asthma relief fall into the steroid nonsteroid category looking the product literature not clear non steroid proventil brand albuterol bronchodilator regards jay keller asthmatic proventil head
sci.med	med school admission hoss panix com writes all ive applied for the class quite number schools and have gotten rejects interviews and responses three possible results after interview rejection outright acceptance outright the infamous wait list you are wait list your entrance into medical school dependent upon some other applicant withdrawing their acceptance this can happen late day starting classes any one know when the heck these people send out their acceptance letters according the med school admissions book theyre supposed send out the number their class acceptances mid march whats going losing sanity checking mailbox every day you can always call the admissions office the secretaries should have some idea when decision might made your application calm respectful and friendly secretaries have more power than you might realize and you never know could the dean admissions answering the phone also does anyone have some useful alternatives case dont get you don get this year sit down and evaluate yourself your motives desires and goals that are directing you into medicine your academic and extracurricular accomplishments make decision about whether you really want medical doctor had classmates who dropped out the first semester med school because they found was not what they wanted have friends who applied four years row before they were accepted medicine career choice you must make for yourself don pushed into because your parents family significant other you still want medical doctor determine how you can improve your application letter recommendation from professor who knows you well and can give honest positive recommendation far better than one from big shot famous professor who only vaguely remembers your face also don afraid ask these people they can give you honest and positive recommendation give them chance say sorry instead the medical school saying sorry have turned down writing recommendations for some students because did not know them well enough make any meaningful comments and some because honestly could not recommend them that point rewrite your personal statement take english professor some other friendly person with skill and experience writing and proof reading and get their criticism both about what you are saying well how you say review your academic accomplishments your grades are poor some area don afraid spend some time further coursework evidence determined committment will help here you filled your pre medicine curriculum with gut courses usually shows look your extracurricular involvements participating local philanthropic service organizations plus substantial leadership roles organization help also beware resume padding such things are not difficult spot and weed out overall clear conception where you wish head and why you want get there combined with honest self appraisal skills and aptitude will the best path take applying any program medical what have you good luck with the process tom petty says the waiting the hardest part least emotionally bob schmieg
sci.med	sinus surgery septoplasty ent doctor recommended surgery fix sinuses have very deviated nasal septum probably the result least partially from several fractures one side has approximately normal flow course have known this for years but recently discovered that suffer from chronic sinus infection discovered during mri after severe migraine scan subsequently confirmed the problems the sinuses wants endoscopic sinus surgery the ethmoid maxillary frontal and sphenoid along with nasal septoplasty explained the procedure and the risks what would like know there anyone out there who can tell had this surgery and helped already heard from couple who said they had and didn really help them moderately severe asthmatic ent doc says large percentage see some relief their asthma after sinus surgery also said not unheard that migraines away after chronis sinusitis relieved any relevant information appreciated regards jay keller sunnyvale california badboy netcom com
sci.med	iridology any credence saw printed flyer that stated the person was licensed herbologist and iridologist what are your opinions how much can you tell about person health looking into their eyes
sci.med	prohibit for spiral meningitis like know how effective prohibit prevent spiral meningitis for child who five years old heard from canada what sort side effects etc chul hee cho
sci.med	pregnency without sex think you must have the same hygiene teacher had there story about the civil war about soldier who was shot the groin the bullet after passing through one his testes then entered the abdomen young woman standing nearby later when she young woman unimpeachible virtue was shown pregnant the soldier did the honorable thing marrying her according this story they lived happily ever after perhaps the most famous rau classes was the time would come into class brandishing aluminum turning mandrel tapering from about over inch length would say boys you know what this medical instrument called cock reamer and used unclog your penis when you have they just ram there without anesthetic needless say this had chilling effect didn have lascivious thoughts for least hour later life perused medical instrument catelogs and saw the slender flexible urethral sounds that are actually used could not escape thinking that might one day see reamer cock style rau
sci.med	pregnency without sex speaking educational systems recently had colleague tell that the reason one our fifth grade students physically developed because she was sexually abused younger child this she went say kicks the pituitary gland into action and causes puberty
sci.med	msg sensitivity superstition wrote you don like additives then for godsake get off the net and learn cook from scratch sheesh mary allison exclaims excuse why can people learn cook from scratch the net gotten lots recipes off the net that don use additives because one simply can cook the net nor can one cook while the net cooking best done kitchen stove gotcha grin said this out general frustration people not anyone particular who seem expect packaged food conform their tastes other words packaged foods are not your liking prepare foods that are you like additives then get off the net and your local supermarket buy lots packaged foods and you get off the net don have strong feelings about additives long can taste for the rest your reply sorry seemed was picking you wasn trying please accept apologies kiran
sci.med	nasopharinx carcenoma does anyone know the possible causes nasoparynx carcenoma and what are the chances being hereditary also the advacned cases what the general procedure reduce the pain the area prevents the patient from eating due the excessive pain swallowing and even talking thanks
sci.med	cats and pregnancy article apr etl klaus ipri klaus hofmann writes hello heard that certain disease toxoplasmosys transmitted cats which can harm the unborn fetus does anybody know about problem have cat the same apartment having the cat around not problem but the pregnant woman should not change the litter box toxoplasmosis can transmitted from the stool some cats kenneth gilbert university pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not programmer
sci.med	herpes question looking for some clarification subject that trying find some information how hsv herpes transmitted currently know that can transmitted during inflammation but what looking for can transmitted during other periods also want know you can accurately tested for while you are not showing symtoms you can help would greatly appreciate teg
sci.med	msg sensitivity superstition michael iastate edu michael huang writes msg common many food eat including chinese though some oriental restaurants might put tad too much them noticed that when out and eat most the chinese food restaurants will usually get slight headache and ununsual thirst afterwards this happens many friends and relatives too and heh eat chinese food all the time home but don use msg when cooking for ourselves heck seem feel like that every time eat out including the cafeteria work about half the time the headache intensifies until nothing will make away except throwing ick you might imagine don eat out lot guess tolerance for food additives has plummeted since switched eating mostly steamed veggies they easy fix that all won even mention what happened the last time ate corned beef oops too late the graphics bbs better than sharp stick the eye internet lim graphics rent com julie lim uucp rutgers bobsbox graphics lim
sci.med	can men get yeast infections steve pope spp zabriskie berkeley edu wrote woman once told her doctor told her that could catch asymptomatically her yeast infection from her then give back her causing relapse probably bogus but not another reason use latex steve isn bogus had chronic vaginal yeast infections that would away with cream but reappear about weeks had been rounds antibiotics for resistant sinus infection and husband had been amoxicillin also for sinus infection after six months this went gynecologist who had culture husband seminal fluid after days incubation had quite bit yeast growth was confirmed the lab round nizerol for him cleared both andrea kwiatkowski
sci.med	pregnency without sex mmatusev radford vak edu melissa matusevich writes speaking educational systems recently had colleague tell that the reason one our fifth grade students physically developed because she was sexually abused younger child this she went say kicks the pituitary gland into action and causes puberty nonsense taught fifth sixth seventh there are few early puberty types fifth and has nothing with early sexual experience jackie
sci.med	nasopharinx carcenoma article rpi edu chungy rebecca its rpi edu yau felix chung writes does anyone know the possible causes nasoparynx carcenoma and what are the chances being hereditary nasopharyngeal cancer roughly don have references hand times more prevalent chinese than caucasians particularly those chinese from southern china one province region has extraordinary excess the chinese and others have done major studies some association with the epstein barr virus has been noted also the advacned cases what the general procedure reduce the pain the area prevents the patient from eating due the excessive pain swallowing and even talking palliative radiotherapy used
sci.med	hip replacement 
sci.med	need info circumcision medical cons and pros article uiuc edu blix milton uiuc edu gunnar blix writes need information the medical including emotional pros and cons circumcision birth pity those who hope that medical knowledge can resolve issues such this this issue has been rehashed sci med time and time again the bottom line this normal circumstances both the medical advantages and the medical risks circumcision are minor this means that the decision left the religious cultural ethical and aesthetic mores the parents best the habit the concerned hospital caregivers worst prospective parents you should what you want this regard and not worry about too much terms decisions you make for your child will have far less importance than many such which schools you choose that most parents think about only little this question will undoubtedly push the buttons people who feel that the decision circumcise your infant not momentous medical decision not russell
sci.med	can supply you with the transplantants other the private scietific industrial firm intercom can supply you with the transplantants that could delivered according your order selection and preparation the materials carried out the qualified personnel having year experience this sphere provide immunological selection tissues the special request aids syphilis other infection diseases tests bio chemical tests guarantee deliverance our products within temperature habital providing their prime condition yarosha apart kharkov ukraine tel fax mail tuser azbuka kharkov relay ussr net
sci.med	iridology any credence article dpw com janice price jprice dpw com writes how much can you tell about person health looking into their eyes looking the iris iridology virtually nothing looking the retina allows one visualise the small blood vessels and helpful assessing various systemic diseases hypertension and diabetes for example don mackie his opinion will disavow
sci.med	thermogenics first off not mistaken only hibernating animals have brown fat not humans secondly your description sounds just like dinitrophenol this uncoupler respiratory chain oxidative phosphorylation put layman terms short circuits the mitochondria causing food energy turned into heat dnp was popular the for weight reduction controlled amounts raises body temperature the body compensates for the reduced amount useful energy available very dangerous would wiser adjust your present body form rather than play around with dnp but you insist suggest you look the literature your own university library you can obtain dnp taking first year organic chemistry lab course and swiping from the supplies commonly used reagent
sci.med	hypodermic needle scientific american had nice short article the history the hypodermic about years ago prior liquid injectables there were paddle like needles used implant tiny pill under the skin
sci.med	candida yeast bloom fact fiction article apr vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes oxygen just like does the vagina much stuff there the lay press about acidophilus and vaginal yeast infections really amazed that someone has not done clinical trial yet check out mentioned this study couple times now ingestion yogurt containing lactobacillus acidophilus prophylaxis for candidal vaginitis annals internal medicine you have problem with the study because they used yogurt rather than capsules lactobacillus even though had positive results the study was crossover trial daily ingestion ounces yogurt there was marked decrease infections while women were ingesting the yogurt problems with the study included very small numbers patients enrolled and many protocol violations only patients were analyzed still the difference rates infection between the two groups was large that the study remains fairly believable david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
sci.med	can men get yeast infections then wife used get recurrent yeast infections one day her doctor sent her home with medication for her and pill for took the pill upon her insistence and was very relieved the next day when looked the pdr only rarely causes testicular atrophy anyway men apparently get yeast infections
sci.med	info colonics and purification recently come upon body literature which promotes colon cleansing vital aid preventive medicine through nutrition particular bernard jenssen his book colon cleansing for health and longevity the title actually escapes but very similar that claims that regular self administered colonics along with certain orally ingested debris loosening agents boosts the immune system significant degree also plugs unique appliance called the colema board which facilitates the self administration colonics sells for over from california based company also plugs vitra tox products his chemical agents choice these include volcanic ash supposedly for its electrical charge and psyllium powder for its bulkiness anyone knows anything about colon cleansing theory its particulars the colema board and related products very interested hear about research and personal experience this article crossposted alt magick the issue touches upon fasting and cleansing through ritual system purification eli wiesel yale edu elisha wiesel davenport college yale university wiesel minerva cis yale edu school home
sci.med	info colonics and purification recently come upon body literature which promotes colon cleansing vital aid preventive medicine through nutrition particular bernard jenssen his book colon cleansing for health and longevity the title actually escapes but very similar that claims that regular self administered colonics along with certain orally ingested debris loosening agents boosts the immune system significant degree also plugs unique appliance called the colema board which facilitates the self administration colonics sells for over from california based company also plugs vitra tox products his chemical agents choice these include volcanic ash supposedly for its electrical charge and psyllium powder for its bulkiness anyone knows anything about colon cleansing theory its particulars the colema board and related products very interested hear about research and personal experience this article crossposted alt magick the issue touches upon fasting and cleansing through ritual system purification eli wiesel yale edu elisha wiesel davenport college yale university wiesel minerva cis yale edu school home
sci.med	cats and pregnancy article apr etl klaus ipri klaus hofmann writes heard that certain disease toxoplasmosys transmitted cats which can harm the unborn fetus does anybody know about problem have cat the same apartment the disease you are talking about toxoplasmosis protozoan that lives and multiplies within cells cats the protozoan multiplies the intestinal cells and eggs are shed the cat feces the protozoa can cross the placenta infect the fetus the disease may asymptomatic after the baby born may very severe toxo may cause blindness and mental retardation having cat the same apartment should not problem however pregnant women should not scoop change the cat litterbox addition whoever does empty the litterbox should thoroughly wash his her hands before handling anything else especially food information came from the merck manual hope this information helpful you elisa picl fsphy physics fsu edu
sci.med	usmle formerly national boards part request medical students this request goes out medical students who have done are planning sit the usmle national boards part wife sitting this examination early june this year and would like have look some old national boards part questions found the following books these books are currently out print the books are retired nbme basic medical science test items nbme published nbme self test the part basic medical sciences nbme published nbme would appreciate anyone who has these books willing loan her for couple days obviously would reimburse for you all postage and related charges failing that would beneficial anyone could point any library the area that may have these books please respond mail since not read this newsgroup regularly thanks advance daniel mail daniel learning siemens com
sci.med	need info circumcision medical cons and pros need info circumcision medical cons and pros article uiuc edu gunnar blix blix milton uiuc edu writes need information the medical including emotional pros and cons circumcision birth especially interested references studies that indicate disadvantages refute studies that indicate advantages friend who medical student writing survey paper and apparently the studies she has run into are all for circumcision the main argument being lower risk penile cancer please email responses not frequent reader either group will summarize the net very surprised that medical schools still push routine circumcision newborn males the population since your friend not man she can imagine what like have penis much less foreskin guess american medicine did artistic job circumcising every male then the visual result would somewhat more natural appearance the penile cancer thing has been completely debunked she must going school south pacific island tell her check the journal urology for circumcision articles remember least old jewish man cut birth who developed penile cancer mean the cancer risk was that great the europe who have been circumcising like crazy too teaching boy how keep his cockhead clean the issue little proper hygiene goes long way americans are just too hung the penis consider cleaning that just way too much like mastubation you have surgical intervention that basically unnecessary
sci.med	allergies and stuff was msg sensitivity superstition unless plan getting sick won eat the stuff without seldane and did ever learn read labels might not please medical researcher but pleased own personal physician enough for him give allergy medicine allergy medicine huh this just get rid the resultant migraine whatever does actually suppress allergic reactions like antihistamine does far doctors over here are concerned you slip and eat something you allergic even they won test you tell you what avoid then tough cheap medicine will alleviate your symptoms then fine otherwise you just suffer one doctor did prescribe imigran costs the nhs for tablets after having rehydrate because been throwing for four solid days and couldn even drink water but got taken off again when moved and had change doctors reasoning they did not know what the side effects were because was new fine but has passed the safety tests get the prescription list and anyway was prepared take the risk have quality life now the only alternatives have get prescribed privately which cannot afford pay private allergy specialist test and tell what avoid fairly certain allergic more than one chemical additive lot things can eat have nothing common except things know are safe testing myself isn really option there are too many permutations not saying never consume anything with msg noticed that have certain tolerance level like small bag bbq chips once month not problem but that same bag chips will bother also had chicken bouillon yesterday and lunch one the chinese restaurants the day before yes noticed that and can work eating just under the tolerance level fairly regularly don eat anything except home cooking for month lose and have work from scratch bad experience now know what the early warning symptoms are though can usually tell whether allergic food before eaten too much usually
sci.med	looking for info kemotherapy hello friend under going kemotherapy for breast cancer trying learn what can about any info would appreciated thanks
sci.med	krillean photography article apr ultb isc rit edu eas ultb isc rit edu story writes article rgrsvinnmpr gap caltech edu carl sol gps caltech edu writes greg flame definitely intended here bill was making fun the misspelling look the word krill also the correct spelling kirlian involves taking photographs corona discharges created attaching the subject high voltage source not some aura works equally well with inanimate objects true but what about showing the missing part leaf this corona discharge yup the demonstration which you refer consists placing leaf between the plates and taking kirlian photograph you then cut off part the leaf put the top plate back and take another kirlian photograph you see pretty much the same image both cases turns out the effect isn nearly striking you take the trouble clean the plates between photographs seems that the moisture from the leaf that you left the place conducts electricity surprise surprise carl lydick internet carl sol gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol carl disclaimer hey understand vaxen and vms that what get paid for understanding astronomy purely the amateur level below unless what saying directly related vax vms don hold organization responsible for related vax vms you can try hold responsible for but organization had nothing with
sci.med	help for kidney stones article etxmow garboc etxmow garbo ericsson mats winberg writes isn there relatively new treatment for kidney stones involving non invasive use ultra sound where the patient lowered into some sort liquid when she undergoes treatment sure read about somewhere remember correctly painless and effective treatment couple weeks ago visited hospital here stockholm and saw big signs showing the way the kidney stone chrusher saw this few years ago tomorrow world low brow bbc technology news program the patient lowered into bath ionized water and carefully positioned high intensity pressure waves are generated electric spark the water you don get electrocuted because ionised water does not conduct these waves are focused the kidneys parabolic reflector and cause the stone break this completely painless course you then have get these little bits gravel through the urethra ouch paul paul johnson paj gec mrc tel ext these ideas and others like them can had gec marconi research not for each from any reputable idealist responsible for opinions
sci.med	use haldol elderly article westesc xqf netcom com westes netcom com will estes writes does anyone know research done the use haldol the elderly does short term use the drug ever produce long term side effects after the use the drug grandmother recently had hospitalized and was given large doses haldol for several weeks although the drug has been terminated she has changed from perky slightly senile woman into virtual vegetable who does not talk anyone and who cannot even eat brush her teeth without assistance seems incredible that such changes could take place the course just one and one half months have believe that the combination the hospital stay and some drug are part catalysts for this any comments will estes internet westes netcom com haldol one the wonder drugs that works wonders you carrot that henry dunham chip emt nremt coordinator ems operations houston field house ems albnyvms bitnet
sci.med	use haldol elderly lawrence curcio andrew cmu edu wrote seen people their forties and fifties become disoriented and demented during hospital stays the examples seen drugs were definitely involved own father turned into vegetable for short time while the hospital was fifty three the time and was separate medications the family protested but the doctors were adamant telling that none the drugs interact they even took the attitude that was disoriented they should put him something else well with the help friend the family had all his medication discontinued had seizure that night and was put back one drug two days later was his old self again guess there aren many medical texts that address the subject way interactions saw the same thing happen father and can more less validate your take hospitals seems that medical science understands precious little about taking care the human machine drugs are given response symptoms and guess that makes sense since all the studies that validate the effectiveness those drugs are based narrow assessment the degree particular symptoms but there seems very little appreciation for the well being person outside the numbers that appear test watched dad wither away and lose huge amounts body fat and muscles tissue while the hospital there something little crazy about system which there more attention paid giving you every latest drug available than there attention paid whether you have had enough eat prevent loss muscle tissue really really bizarre will estes internet westes netcom com
sci.med	pregnency without sex all right listen what are the possibilities transmission through swimming pool water especially the chlorination isn par heard community swimming pools refered public urinals what else going
sci.med	krillean photography flame reading through the posts about kirlian whatever spelling photography couldn help but being slightly disgusted the narrow minded know all don believe what can see measure attitude many people out there neither real believer nor disbeliever when comes called paranormal stuff but far concerned just likely the existence for instance god which seems quite accepted our societies without any scientific basis convinced that serious mistake close your mind something anything simply because doesn fit your current frame reference history shows that many great people great scientists were people who kept open mind and were ridiculed sceptics especially the usa should grateful after all columbus did not drop off the edge the earth flame off end sermon alex
sci.med	what the medical term for this sensation dear netters maybe one you can explain this from time time experience strange kind feeling have all kinds weird feelings which can best described the feeling losing gravity like that one experiences descending elevator needless say not enjoyable sometimes comes with shortness breath and extreme fatigue lasts from few minutes hour and when lasts that long makes sweatening initially called palpitation spelling until later learnt that the terminology has been reserved for the self awareness heart beats there specific term for this feeling stragne person always believe unique thanks ping
sci.med	discussions alt psychoactives serious discussion about drugs where can get good bong man why not have the group moderated that would eliminate some the idiots
sci.med	vasectomy health effects women does anyone know any studies done the long term health effects man vasectomy his female partner seen plenty study results about vasectomy effects men health but what about women for example might the wife vasectomized man become more risk for say cervical cancer adverse effects from sperm antibodies changes the vagina yeast bacterial infections outside study results how about informed speculation thanks advance for your help eric skagerberg eskagerb nermal santarosa edu santa rosa california telephone
sci.med	krillean photography article apr linus mitre org gpivar mitre org the pancake emporium writes article apr scorch apana org bill scorch apana org bill dowding writes todamhyp charles unlv edu brian huey writes think that the correct spelling looking for any information supplies that will allow yourselfers take krillean pictures thinking that education suppliers for schools might have appartus for sale but don know any the companies any info greatly appreciated krillean photography involves taking pictures minute decapods resident the seas surrounding the antarctic pictures taken them perhaps bill from bill flame intended but you way way off base simple terms kirilian photography registers the electromagnetical fields around objects simple takes pictures your aura greg still silent the rest easy dear bill think you forgot the smileys some got the joke
sci.med	med school admission fellow applicant and situation not too much better applied about schools got two interviews got one offer and waiting hear from the other school let honest about experiences and impressions about the medical school admissions process numbers gpa mcats are not everything but they are probably more important than anything else fact some schools screen out applicants based these numbers and never even look your other qualities course when this happens don expect refund your application fee but the fact that you got four interviews tells that you have the numbers and are very well qualified academically you mentioned one response was acceptance denial wait list assume the worst that was denial then you still have great probability acceptance somewhere how did your interviews for how long you have wait called few schools who never contacted for anything many them told that the interview season for them was over and that haven heard now can assume denial many rejection letters are not sent out until may late june but some schools are still interviewing really don think you should worry don become fixated the mailbox out have fun very proud yourself what people think the medical school admissions process had very mediocre gpa but high mcat scores and have been working software engineer for two years majored computer science stanford still think the profile the person who has the best chance getting admitted something like this very important gpa better mcat top all subject medium importance writing speaking ability maturity motivation for going into medicine activities less important college university major work experience anything else you want them know anyway you are good shape think admissions committees are bound many ways the numbers but would like very much understand each person individual sometimes thats just not practical but getting four interviews indicator that you have the numbers hopefully you were able impress them with your character good luck jeff
sci.med	help for kidney stones etxmow garbo ericsson mats winberg writes isn there relatively new treatment for kidney stones involving non invasive use ultra sound where the patient lowered into some sort liquid when she undergoes treatment sure read about somewhere remember correctly painless and effective treatment the use shock waves not ultrasound break stones has been around for few years depending the type machine and intensity the shock waves usually uncomfortable enough require something the high power machines cause enough pain require general regional anesthesia afterwards feels like someone slugged you pretty good
sci.med	resound hearing aids and others article rhaller rhaller uoregon edu rhaller uoregon edu rich haller writes have fairly severe high frequency hearing loss recent rough test showed gently sloping loss down cps then falls off cliff dbs down from cps this type loss difficult fit currently using some old siemens behind the ear aids which keep roughly functional but leave lot desired recently had opportunity test the widex behind the ear aids for several weeks these have four independent programs which are intended customized for different hearing situations and can reprogramed found them definite improvement over current aids and was about ahead with them until another local outfit advertised free trial another programmable system called resound unfortunately was only able try the resound aids their office for about minutes and couldn compare them head head with the widex nevertheless did appear that they were superior and was impressed what was able read about the theory behind them which will give separate posting they also carry the widex aids and had one patient presumably wealthy who decided ahead and get the resound even though had purchased the widex only months ago the problem that the resound aids are about twice expensive the widex and other programmable aids could take trip europe the difference being lover bargains and hating spend money having hard time persuading myself with the resounds would appreciate any opinions this and other hearing aids and projections about when and might see improvements technology that aren quite expensive your hearing curve sounds lot like mine thanks uncle sam been wearing miracle ear canal aids for about months now and find them acceptable they are molded the shape your ear canal and tuned your hearing curve they are comfortable wear and almost invisible you worried about that although you currently wearing behind the ear models that not issue the cost paid each for mine through the miracle ear counter sears heard that there substantial discount for senior citizens but haven researched that because not senior citizen yet give them try you might pleasantly surprised alan hepburn man doesn know what knows national semiconductor until knows what doesn know santa clara alan berlioz nsc com thomas carlyle
sci.med	candida yeast bloom fact fiction article rjifg bgm hsdndev harvard edu rind enterprise bih harvard edu david rind writes article apr vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes oxygen just like does the vagina much stuff there the lay press about acidophilus and vaginal yeast infections really amazed that someone has not done clinical trial yet check out mentioned this study couple times now ingestion yogurt containing lactobacillus acidophilus prophylaxis for candidal vaginitis annals internal medicine you have problem with the study because they used yogurt rather than capsules lactobacillus even though had positive results the study was crossover trial daily ingestion ounces yogurt there was marked decrease infections while women were ingesting the yogurt problems with the study included very small numbers patients enrolled and many protocol violations only patients were analyzed still the difference rates infection between the two groups was large that the study remains fairly believable david rind david this study looks like good one gordon rubenfeld did medline search and also sent the same reference through mail since commercial yogurt does not always have good lactobacillus bulgaricus culture negative finding would not have been too informative this often the reason why lactobacillus acidophilus tablets are recommended rather than yogurt guess the next question why would this introduction good bacteria back into the gut decrease the incidence vaginal candida blooms the anus was not serving candida reservoir fact that gordon vehementy denys see two possible theories one the acidophilus which facultatively anaerobic bacterium could make through the gut and colonize the rectal area overgrow the candida this would not explain the reoccurance candida blooms the vagina after the yogurt ingestion was stopped though the other that the additional bacteria the intestinal tract remove most the glucose from the feces and candida looses major food source getting lactobacillus acidophilus colonize the vaginal tract where normally found would have much better effect the recurrance vaginal yeast blooms though acetic acid lactobacillus acidophilus douche has been used get this effect but not seen any such treatment reported the medical literature this would example physicians conducting their own clinical trials try come with treatments that help their patients when this done private practice the results are rarely ever published was the hallmark medicine until the modern age emerged with clinical trials really raises big question does the medical profession cast out the adventerous few who try new treatments help patients does look the other way this particular issue really very simple one since real dangerous therapy involved even the anti fungals are not all that dangerous but there are some areas like edta chelation therapy where the fire pretty hot and somebody could get burned really tough follow only well established protocols and then give they don work that well try something that looks like will work but hasn been proven work yet stand consider other treatment possibilities especially they involve little risk the patient getting good bacteria back into the gut after antibiotic treatment one treatment possibility the other getting acidophilus into the vaginal tract woman who having problem with recurring yeast infections marty
sci.med	krillean photography article rjr uinnh gap caltech edu carl sol gps caltech edu carl lydick writes article apr ultb isc rit edu eas ultb isc rit edu story writes article rgrsvinnmpr gap caltech edu carl sol gps caltech edu writes greg flame definitely intended here bill was making fun the misspelling look the word krill also the correct spelling kirlian involves taking photographs corona discharges created attaching the subject high voltage source not some aura works equally well with inanimate objects true but what about showing the missing part leaf this corona discharge yup the demonstration which you refer consists placing leaf between the plates and taking kirlian photograph you then cut off part the leaf put the top plate back and take another kirlian photograph you see pretty much the same image both cases turns out the effect isn nearly striking you take the trouble clean the plates between photographs seems that the moisture from the leaf that you left the place conducts electricity surprise surprise this true but not quite the whole story there were actually some people who were more careful their methodology who also replicated the phantom leaf effect one the most influential critics kirlian electrophotography theosophist and threfore presumably willing entertain the hypothesis scientific evidence for human aura electromagnetic otherwise professor electrical engineering london city university and past president the society for psychic research named ellison after years studying the method and the claims ellison came the conclusion that the photographic images are what calls lichtenberg figures effect intermittent ionization the air around the object bit more complicated than not wiping off the plates but comes down the same thing the end kirlian electrophotography has much more limited value any than was previously widely thought electrical and magnetic fields generated the body are much too small much use diagnostically without very elaborate equipment and usually also tracer chemicals kind regards todd todd stark stark dwovax enet dec com digital equipment corporation philadelphia usa word the skin living thought oliver wendell holmes
sci.med	request faq have friend who interested subscribing this newsgroup unfortunatly she does not have usenet access someone could send her faq and info how subscribe very appreciative you want send you can and will get her not read this newsgroup regularly though mail please thank you jody jody rebecca colby college majors history sociology class mail jrgould colby edu samuel paul rutgers edu fantasy music colors and animals will lead this society out oppression
sci.med	oops silly sorry friend address who wants the faq and info jjsulliv colby edu sorry about that folks jody jody rebecca colby college majors history sociology class mail jrgould colby edu samuel paul rutgers edu fantasy music colors and animals will lead this society out oppression
sci.med	ecg data needed need some ecg data uncompressed hopefully ascii format don care what looks like this for signal processing project
sci.med	please help patient article aaghzshe integral stavropol mymail integral stavropol writes mail newsserv kiae subject please help dear ladies and gentlemen should grateful for any information about address and mail address loma linda hospital approximate position usa california near vaimor town miles from los angelos patient needs consultation this clinics before operation with respect igor sidelnikov quit this also being replied via mail dialed university librarian and looked loma linda university medical center loma linda don know internet address for them but they can reached telephone good luck daniel field aka infospunj never believe any experiment until dfield oboe calpoly edu has been confirmed theory biochemistry biotechnology arthur eddington california polytechnic state tongue cheek foot mouth
sci.med	need info circumcision medical cons and pros article apr netnews noc drexel edu giamomj duvm ocs drexel edu mike writes need info circumcision medical cons and pros article uiuc edu gunnar blix blix milton uiuc edu writes need information the medical including emotional pros and cons circumcision birth especially interested references studies that indicate disadvantages refute studies that indicate advantages friend who medical student writing survey paper and apparently the studies she has run into are all for circumcision the main argument being lower risk penile cancer please email responses not frequent reader either group will summarize the net very surprised that medical schools still push routine circumcision newborn males the population since your friend not man she money probably has lot with keeping the practice routine circumcision alive another opporitunity charge few hundred extra bucks for completely unnecessary procedure the rationale for which until recently has been accepted without question most parents newborns one could also imagine that complications arising from circumcision infections sloppy jobs etc are far more common than the remote chance penile cancer purported prevent can imagine what like have penis much less foreskin guess american medicine did artistic job circumcising every male then the visual result would somewhat more natural appearance the penile cancer thing has been completely debunked she must going school south pacific island tell her check the journal urology for circumcision articles remember least old jewish man cut birth who developed penile cancer mean the cancer risk was that great the europe who have been circumcising like crazy too teaching boy how keep his cockhead clean the issue little proper hygiene goes long way americans are just too hung the penis consider cleaning that just way too much like mastubation you have surgical intervention that basically unnecessary peter schlumpf university illinois urbana champaign
sci.med	can sell tens unit sci med people can sell tens unit does have sold physician other liscened person doug opdbs latech edu
sci.med	pregnency without sex article apr oswego oswego edu matthews oswego oswego edu harry matthews writes all right listen what are the possibilities transmission through swimming pool water especially the chlorination isn par heard community swimming pools refered public urinals what else going but the sperm would very diluted gallon swimming pool email scheiber sage purdue edu school nursing purdue university
sci.med	krillean photography article oil vuse vanderbilt edu alex vuse vanderbilt edu alexander zijdenbos writes flame reading through the posts about kirlian whatever spelling photography couldn help but being slightly disgusted the narrow minded know all don believe what can see measure attitude many people out there where have you seen that attitude neither real believer nor disbeliever when comes called paranormal stuff but far concerned just likely the existence for instance god which seems quite accepted our societies without any scientific basis convinced that serious mistake close your mind something anything simply because doesn fit your current frame reference history shows that many great people great scientists were people who kept open mind and were ridiculed sceptics fine jackass suppose you point out even one aspect kirlian photography that not explained corona discharge carl lydick internet carl sol gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol carl disclaimer hey understand vaxen and vms that what get paid for understanding astronomy purely the amateur level below unless what saying directly related vax vms don hold organization responsible for related vax vms you can try hold responsible for but organization had nothing with
sci.med	persistent chronic can anyone out there tell the difference between persistent disease and chronic one for example persistent hepatitis chronic hepatitis thanks horace
sci.med	feverfew for migraines heard short blurb the news yesterday about herb called feverfew that some say good for preventing migraines think the news said there were two double blind studies that found this effective does anyone know about these studies have experience with feverfew skeptical but open trying can find out more about this what feverfew and how much would you take prevent migraines this good idea that are there any known risks side effects feverfew thanks advance for any info brenda
sci.med	iridology any credence iridology descendant from century theory which mapped certain diseases sectors the iris the eye there enough natural variation color that skilled examiner can find indicators virtually any disease modern scientists consider complete bunk
sci.med	can supply you with the transplantants other harvested order
sci.med	info colonics and purification colonics were health fad the century which persists this day except for certain medical conditions there reason this certainly normal person should this frequent use enemas can lead condition which person unable have normal bowel passage essentially person becomes addicted enemas understand this very unpleasant condition and would best avoid
sci.med	med school admission then there are always osteopathy colleges
sci.med	pregnency without sex master cna tek com mikeq freddy cna tek com mike quigley writes article write when was school boy biology teacher told incident which couple were very passionate without actually having sexual intercourse somehow the girl became pregnent sperm cells made their way her through the clothes via persperation was biology teacher misinforming such incidents actually occur ohboy here again and one wonders why the american education system such abysmal shape actually this was school england this same biology teacher also told that the reason that stars twinkle that the small spot light the retina sometimes falls between the light recepive cells his info was suspect from the start stephen
sci.med	request gyro souvlaki sauce michael trofimoff tron fafnir locus com wrote all would anyone out there net land happen have authentic sure fire way making this great sauce that used adorn gyro and souvlaki thanks have receipe home that was posted one our fellow netters about month ago recalling this from memory but think fairly close the way was great pint plain yogurt med sized cucumber finely shredded cloves garlic more less taste tsp dill weed the yogurt dumped into strainer lined with coffee filter and allowed drain least hours you can adjust the consistancy the sauce increasing this time hours the shredded cuc drained the same way mix all together and let steep for least hours better the next day and enjoy steve
sci.med	krillean photography article apr ultb isc rit edu eas ultb isc rit edu story writes article rgrsvinnmpr gap caltech edu carl sol gps caltech edu writes greg flame definitely intended here bill was making fun the misspelling look the word krill also the correct spelling kirlian involves taking photographs corona discharges created attaching the subject high voltage source not some aura works equally well with inanimate objects true but what about showing the missing part leaf this corona discharge think can explain the missing part leaf story have actually seen reproduction that particular kirlian photograph book compiled people who were enthusiasts kirlian photography that particular photograph that right the effect has been observed only once even the writers the book were inclined disbelieve conjecture that the maker that photograph began placing whole leaf between two plates and taking its kirlian photo for his next experiment cut the leaf half put one half down between the same two plates and took another the missing half effect was created water oils etc left behind after the first photo this explanation must tentative because after all wasn there when happened regards chris henrich
sci.med	krillean photography article oil vuse vanderbilt edu alex vuse vanderbilt edu alexander zijdenbos writes reading through the posts about kirlian whatever spelling photography couldn help but being slightly disgusted the narrow minded know all don believe what can see measure attitude many people out there neither real believer nor disbeliever when comes called paranormal stuff but far concerned just likely the existence for instance god which seems quite accepted our societies without any scientific basis convinced that serious mistake close your mind something anything simply because doesn fit your current frame reference history shows that many great people great scientists were people who kept open mind and were ridiculed sceptics especially the usa should grateful after all columbus did not drop off the edge the earth one thing open minded about phenomona that have not demonstrated false and quite another believe something like krilian photography where all the claimed effects have demonstrated artifacts there longer any reason adopt wait and see attitude about krilian photography has been experimentally shown nothing but simple coronal discharge the auras shown missing leaf parts came from moisture left the original whole leaf for example that what science son bill vanhorne
sci.med	opinions allergy hay fever shots article rhb europa eng gtefsd com draper gnd wtp gtefsd com pam draper says this homeopathic remedies tried the dander one for month drops three times day didn notice any change whats ever how long were you using the drops before you noticed difference not homeopathic remedy improvement began few months allergic bermuda grass and anyone nearby was mowing lawn nose would start run now can walk right and doesn bother all the same success with desert ragweed bruce long
sci.med	food related seizures michael covington mcovingt aisun uga edu wrote how about contaminants the corn aflatoxin little alflatoxin commercial cereal products and certainly wouldn cause seizures david ozonoff mph boston university school public health dozonoff med itvax edu east concord boston
sci.med	krillean photography article miinnkju usenet dec com stark dwovax enet dec com todd stark writes yup the demonstration which you refer consists placing leaf between the plates and taking kirlian photograph you then cut off part the leaf put the top plate back and take another kirlian photograph you see pretty much the same image both cases turns out the effect isn nearly striking you take the trouble clean the plates between photographs seems that the moisture from the leaf that you left the place conducts electricity surprise surprise this true but not quite the whole story there were actually some people who were more careful their methodology who also replicated the phantom leaf effect you can also replicate the effect with rock take your first kirlian photograph then moisten one edge the rock and behold phantom rock carl lydick internet carl sol gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol carl disclaimer hey understand vaxen and vms that what get paid for understanding astronomy purely the amateur level below unless what saying directly related vax vms don hold organization responsible for related vax vms you can try hold responsible for but organization had nothing with
sci.med	mevicore lopid used lopid did good job reducing cholesterol down around well ldl and triglycerides then got pneumonia and for some reason the lopid stopped working very well cholesterol and triglycerides soared the levels might have stabilized over time but new doctor had quit wait month then switch mevicore mevicore total cholesterol was down ldl was and hdl was but the trig were still very high around and liver tests came back slightly abnormal sgot ggtp hard read copy said the liver numbers were not offbase enough cause him concern and the triglycerides are not important the cholesterol figures had stop the mevicore allow the liver heal just extra cautious though sure not problem and wants back after that suggested maybe lopid might the better choice and said that wouldn object that what want but lopid has one particular side effect not fond should the above liver and trig figures feared what happens folks with high trig levels liver danger with the above results would better off lopid despite its inconvenient side effect perhaps some other drug niacin affected liver too
sci.med	experts edward jenner look student from san leandro high school doing research project for physics and would like information edward jenner and the vaccination for small pox any information all would greatly apprectiated thank you
sci.med	krillean photography article apr ultb isc rit edu eas ultb isc rit edu story writes article rgrsvinnmpr gap caltech edu carl sol gps caltech edu writes involves taking photographs corona discharges created attaching the subject high voltage source not some aura works equally well with inanimate objects true but what about showing the missing part leaf this corona discharge this effect disappears you clean your apparatus after you kirlianed the whole leaf and before kirlianing the leaf part thomas kettenring dan kaiserslautern germany the extraterrestrials don even know this planet has native inhabitants their government doesn tell them
sci.med	med school admission continued all got several emails and couple news replies and guess shoulda went into more detail being anxiety level peaking and you folks have clue who may well post the specifics and see what you people think regarding previous post recap applied schools total which were and stands now have had rejects interviews and the results which are waiting lists and one schools heard nothing from all have contacted all institutions other than the rejects and they have info whatsoever tell have taken good mix apply top schools bunch middles and few safety funny that most safety schools were the first reject index like mcats were and couldnt get the damn reading score never stuff like art history politics etc ive done medical research the undergrad level done clinical lab work for years now but unfortunately have patient contact experience cant think what else left out but thats the summary what percent people are usually called from the waiting lists average felt that interviews went quite well yet dont have firm acceptance hand anyone have any suggestions calm the mailbox anxiety you premeds out there med students have any questions comments for feel free send them down typing form anti anxiety thereapy hehehehe felix the cat the wonderful wonderful cat meow hoss panix com
sci.med	med school john carey jcarey news weeg uiowa edu wrote actually entering vet school next year but the question relevant for med students too memorizing large amounts has never been strong point academically since this major portion medical education anatomy histology pathology pharmacology are for the most part mass memorization little concerned sure most med students are can anyone suggest techniques for this type memorization have had reasonable success with nemonics and memory tricks like thinking little stories associate unrelated things but have never applied them large amounts data has anyone had luck with any particular books memory systems cheap software can you suggest any helpful organizational techniques being older student who returned school this year organization another one weak points has been major help success please griping about how all you have learn the material conceptually have problem with that one strong points but you can get around the fact that much medicine rote memorization thanks for your help the only suggestion can think off the top head get large supply index cards and memorize small amounts info time making flash cards and quesitons everytime get question wrong always manage get the damn thing right the next time felix the cat the wonderful wonderful cat meow hoss panix com
sci.med	good place for back surgery gary schuetter garyws cbnewsg att com wrote hello just one quick question father has had back problem for long time and doctors have diagnosed operation needed since lives down mexico wants know there hospital anywhere the united states particulary famous for this kind surgery kind like houston has reputation for excellent doctors eye surgery any additional info pointers will appreciated whole lot there one hospital that here new york city that famous for its orthopedists namely the hospital for special surgery they are located the upper east side manhattan you want their address and phone let know get them dont know them off hand for those who are interested the hospitals was referring are the hospital for special surgery east street new york physician referral service info the hospital for joint diseases east street new york felix the cat the wonderful wonderful cat meow hoss panix com
sci.med	msg sensitivity superstition article apr llyene jpl nasa gov julie eddie jpl nasa gov julie kangas writes get tired people saying don eat because bad well may not bad for everyone and even what give people all the information but don ram your decisions down their throats evident you did not read post carefully wasn trying tell you not eat msg products and produce nor was arguing for against msg was simply questioning the logic your statement that simply because one not allergic something and likes eating that follows that one could keep eating whatever post had clearly said that don know enough about msg the statement don eat because its bad just your interpretation nutritional info out there prakash das
sci.med	krillean photography article apr linus mitre org gpivar mitre org the pancake emporium writes article apr scorch apana org bill scorch apana org bill dowding writes todamhyp charles unlv edu brian huey writes think that the correct spelling looking for any information supplies that will allow yourselfers take krillean pictures thinking that education suppliers for schools might have appartus for sale but don know any the companies any info greatly appreciated krillean photography involves taking pictures minute decapods resident the seas surrounding the antarctic pictures taken them perhaps bill from bill flame intended but you way way off base simple terms kirilian photography registers the electromagnetical fields around objects simple takes pictures your aura greg you confused you are talking about kirilian photography bill talking krillean photography tad ssc com bounces use mcimail com tad cook packet amateur radio home phone seattle duo usa
sci.med	copper bracelet sabona john sorenson have seen copper bracelet the name sabona created john sorenson looking for literature the effectiveness copper bracelet dealing with arthritis know one case year old person developed bruise the base her left thumb after wearing the copper bracelet her left wrist for several months she was told the bruise normal and would disappear the bruise reason concerned should the person discontinued wearing the copper bracelet could anyone kindly point literature copper bracelet what are the other information copper bracelet your response would very much appreciated thank you lau hon wah
sci.med	centi and milli pedes does anyone know how posionous centipedes and millipedes are someone was bitten how soon would medical treatment needed and what would liable happen the person just for clarification have not been bitten one these but house seems infested and want know just case rebecca
sci.med	krillean photography very good
sci.med	schatzki ring pvc can anybody out there provide with any advice concerning the following two health problems first was recently diagnosed using ugi series having schatzki ring and small sliding hiatal hernia understand the hernia relatively minor problem though occasionally have some nasty heartburn that probably related the schatzki ring the other hand causing swallowing difficulty particular not careful about eating slowly and thoroughly chewing food food occasionally gets stuck before reaching stomach this results period painful spasms the food attempts pass the obstruction fortunately the food has always managed pass but this annoying and causes frequent discomfort doctor wants dilate the ring using the following procedure use endoscope examine the esophagus and stomach for any inflammation then cut through the ring and dilate passing some kind balloon something thru the esophagous would like know anyone out there has had this similar procedure done was painful successful etc also can anyone comment safety advisability and success rate this procedure has become common procedure kind leery having such invasive sounding procedure performed for currently non threatening condition such this especially considering the possible side effects bleeding perforation reaction anesthesia the second issue for the past years have had large number extra heartbeats particular during the past month there has been dramatic increase holter monitor recently showed pvc hrs along with few pac many days there are far more than this however five ten per hour all them were isolated and the cardiologist indicated that such number was normal certainly doesn feel normal the past there have also been couple episodes extended runs these beats one which lasted long enough cause severe light headedness relatively young ish thin and good health recent bloodtests were all normal and not smoke use drugs caffeine etc willing accept the extra beats normal but don want ignore them they might some kind warning symptom the number pvc seems increase throughout the day and with exercise something simple climbing some stairs also get after sitting lying down for while tend get couple extra beats could they possibly related the esophagous problems both seemed develop about the same time thanks for any help advice
sci.med	miscelaneous soon have baby questions about have our first baby and have few questions that dont seem able get answered our satisfaction reguarding having baby boy circumsized what are the medical pros and cons all heard its the parents how about the pregnant woman sitting tub water heard stories infection etc how about after the water has broken rmccown world std com old macdonald had agricultural real estate tax abatement
sci.med	kidney stones student told today that she has been diagnosed with kidney stones cyst one kidney and kidney infection she was upset because her condition had been misdiagnosed since last fall and she has been ill all this time during her most recent doctor appointment her parents hmo clinic she said that about forty rays were made her kidney when she asked why many rays were being made she was told technician that they need see the area from different views but she says that about five rays were made from each angle she couldn help feeling that something must wrong with the procedure something she pre med student and feels she could have understood what was happening someone would have explained when nobody would she got worried also she told that thre are surgery patients ahead her and that they cannot surgery until august now april she supposed rest lot and drink fluids but she has classes she wonders why they have given her medicine she plans call back her doctor office clinic and try get answers these questions but told her would also write sci med and see what could find out about why there were many rays and whether seems wait line more months for surgery for something like this whether she should looking elsewhere for her care she does plan get second opinion too will pass info her never hurts get information from more than one source you can mail post thanks alice
sci.med	pregnency without sex article apr oswego oswego edu matthews oswego oswego edu harry matthews writes all right listen what are the possibilities transmission through swimming pool water especially the chlorination isn par heard community swimming pools refered public urinals what else going dice soon the sperm cells hit the water they would virtually explode the inside the cell hypertonic and since the membrane semipermeable water would rush and cause the cell burst kenneth gilbert university pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not programmer
sci.med	new method for diagnosing alzheimer disease discovered here press release from huntington medical research institutes new method for diagnosing alzheimer disease discovered huntington medical research institutes results reported national desk health writer contact john lockhart belinda gerber for the huntington medical research institutes los angeles april new method for diagnosing and measuring chemical imbalances the brain which lead alzheimer disease and other dementias has been discovered researchers the huntington medical research institutes hmri pasadena calif results their research will reported the may issue the scientific journal radiology using advanced form magnetic resonance imaging mri called magnetic resonance spectroscopy mrs research team led brian ross phil conducted study elderly patients who were believed suffering from some form dementia the exams used standard mri equipment fitted with special software developed hmri called clinical proton mrs clinical proton mrs easily applied giving doctors confirmatory diagnoses less than minutes automated version clinical proton mrs called proton brain examination probe reduces the examination time yet further providing confirmatory diagnoses less than minutes comparison the current standard care testing for alzheimer disease calls for lengthy memory function and neuropsychological tests which can very upsetting the patient are not definitive and can only confirmed autopsy addition alzheimer disease the new clinical proton mrs exam may have applications diagnosing other dementias including aids related dementia parkinson disease and huntington disease developed simple test which can administered quickly and relatively inexpensively using existing mri equipment fitted with either the mrs probe software said ross adding this will help physicians diagnose alzheimer earlier and intervene with therapeutics before the progression the disease causes further damage the delicate inner workings the brain ross and his hmri team measured family chemicals the brain known inositols and myo inositol acted marker the study comparison healthy patients those diagnosed with alzheimer showed percent increase while their level another chemical called acetylaspartate naa was significantly lower indicating loss brain stimulating neurons believed associated with the progression the disease current drug therapy for alzheimer disease widely considered inadequate this attributable ross believes the theory that alzheimer caused interruption the transmission the chemical acetylcholine the nerve cells this belief has been adhered over the last years and consequently most drugs treat alzheimer were based the changing receptors for acetylcholine physicians have real need for test differentiate alzheimer from other dementias provide the patient and his her family with firm diagnosis and monitor future treatment protocols for the treatment this disease for this reason consider this test major advancement medicine said bruce miller noted neurologist harbor ucla mrs researcher and author the study other members the hmri research team included rex moats truda shonk thomas ernst and suzanne woolley the probe software can fitted the approximately general electric mri units currently use the united states and will configured for other manufacturers mri units soon for interviews with ross advance copies the radiology may issue and other information please contact john lockhart belinda gerber for hmri alzheimer disease what alzheimer disease and how caused alzheimer disease incurable degenerative disease the brain first described the german neuropathologist alois alzheimer the disease progresses leads loss memory and mental functioning followed changes personality loss control bodily functions and eventually death how many people does affect alzheimer disease affects estimated million adults the united states and the fourth leading cause death taking approximately lives each year while alzheimer debilitates its victims equally devastating both emotionally and financially for patients families the most common cause dementia adults symptoms worsen every year and death usually occurs within years initial onset what are its signs and symptoms although the cause not known two risk factors have been identified advanced age and genetic predisposition the risk developing less than one percent before the age yars old but increases steeply each successive decade life reach percent the age patients with familial immediate family relatives have percent chance developing one its first symptoms severe forgetfulness caused short term memory loss herman weinreb the school medicine new york university says whether forgetfulness serious symptom not largely matter degree and suggests the following criteria forgetting the name someone you see infrequently normal forgetting the name loved one serious forgetting where you left your keys normal forgetting how get home serious doctors suggest that people with severe symptoms should evaluated order rule out alzheimer disease and other forms dementia canada remote systems toronto ontario
sci.med	results gusto heart attack study released friday here press release from medical science communications results gusto heart attack study released friday assignment desk medical writer contact jim augustine medical science communication steve hull tracy furey april marriott news advisory results the largest heart attack study ever undertaken the global utilization streptokinase and for occluded coronary arteries trial gusto will presented friday april the clinical research meeting press conference will held gusto evaluates the most aggressive emergency room treatment strategies available clear blocked heart arteries and restore blood flow the heart process called thrombolysis the thrombolytic strategies compared gusto use powerful drugs break blood clots heart vessels quickly and prevent clots from recurring these strategies have never been compared directly large scale clinical trial until gusto the results are expected have important impact heart attack treatment worldwide the press conference will held two locations live the national press club main lounge floor washington and via satellite the hotel macklowe street floor new york city between broadway and avenue gusto results will presented eric topol gusto study chairman professor and chairman the department cardiology the cleveland clinic foundation robert califf clinical director gusto coordinating center and associate professor medicine duke university medical center and allan ross coordinator the gusto angiographic substudy and professor and director the division cardiology the george washington university medical center editorial notes attention television the press conference may viewed its entirety via satellite starting edt band telestar transponder dual audio kusbs transponder following the press conference there will news package and roll feed camera ready illustrations also will available the press conference telephone hook the press conference planned availability limited please call mcs for more information for reporters who will the sheraton washington attending the clinical research meeting friday morning minibus transportation will provided the press conference the bus will depart also will available for return the sheraton after the press conference for more information contact steve hull tracy furey mcs for the gusto study group the marriott april april for more information about the clinical research meeting contact jim augustine medical science communications canada remote systems toronto ontario
sci.med	need prozac info looking for information regarding dosages prozac used minor depression also any other information regarding the drug helpful please send responses direct thanks rrome nyx edu
sci.med	sheep cardiac research dear news readers there anyone using sheep models for cardiac research specifically concerned with arrhythmias pacing defibrillation would like hear from you many thanks andrew mears please email andrewm iris bio uts edu andrew mears crc for cardiac technology uts westbourne gore hill email andrewm iris bio uts edu
sci.med	strain gage applications vivo article apr organpipe uug arizona edu ame bigdog engr arizona edu terrance dishongh writes greeting starting work project where trying make strain gages bond bone vivo period several months currently using hydroxyapaptite back gages and have tried bonding the gages the bone apart from those two application methods there doesn seem much else the literature have only engineering background not medical biological would interest any ideas about how stimulte bone growth the surface cortical bone thanks for oyur help advance terrance dishongh ame bigdog engr arizona edu sounds though you might want try product such super glue the active ingredient cynoacrylate the same compound used reconstruct bones have successfully used superglue for number procedures many different species animal you are simply trying adhear something bone for several months this would ideal bonds almost immediatly resistant infection and non irritating surrounding tissue phil bowman manager lab animal resources university montana missoula larpjb selway umt edu phil bowman manager laboratory animal resources
sci.med	urine analysis article kps transfer stratus com randy faneuf vos stratus com writes someone please help searching find out many others may absolute cure removing all detectable traces marijuana from persons body there chemical natural substance that can ingested added urine make undetectable urine analysis where can these substances found you could what never near the stuff michael covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt uga edu the university georgia phone athens georgia amateur radio tmi
sci.med	sheep models cardiology dear news readers there anyone using sheep models for cardiac research specifically concerned with arrhythmias pacing defibrillation would like hear from you many thanks andrew mears please email andrew mears crc for cardiac technology uts westbourne gore hill email andrewm iris bio uts edu
sci.med	cortisone shots need some information the implications receiving cortisone shots for seasonal allergic condition had the usual skin prick tests for the common allergies but reacted none the substances for the last two seasons received cortisone shots but the doctors seem reluctant give more than two three shots why what are the dangers
sci.med	looking for info kemotherapy kinda long article rjpu innmij shelley washington edu kryan stein washington edu kerry ryan writes hello friend under going kemotherapy for breast cancer trying learn what can about any info would appreciated thanks you asked toughie question there are many different drugs which are used for chemotherapy the overall purpose chemotherapy don worry about the spelling some these crazy medical words are impossible spell either destroy cancer cells keep them from growing different drugs have different effects cancer cells and therefore not uncommon use more than one drug time some chemotherapeutic drugs are effective anytime during the growth cycle cell others work only specific times during the cell cycle the first phase the cell cycle when the protein synthesis and rna systhesis occurs the second phase synthesis dna occurs the third phase the dna splits and rna and protein are synthesized aagain the fourth phase mitosis the cell may divide there are drugs which are effective each phase some stop dna synthesis others stop the cell from dividing others wreck protein synthesis any rate the end result that being sought for the cancer cells stop growing what you are seeking practical advice apologize for rambling the techno stuff some side effects are pretty common chemo drugs are rather nasty can cause person lose their appetite and experience nausea and vomiting things help this include eating small frequent meals also suggested that nausea vomiting hereafter known occurs that the person notify the doctor there are medicines tthat help nausea diarrhea can effect antidiarrheal medications can given and good skincare and fluid intake are important probably the one biggest concsern hair loss this does not always happen depends what drugs are being given and the person themself different people taking the same drug can and have different side effects have seen some literature which states that wearing snug headband and wearing ice cap can help reduce hair loss presumably reducing blood flow the scalp anyone has seen research this too would love see and possibly some bib data highly recommend making contact with the american cancer society they have vast selection literature and information addition your friend has had mastectomy highly recommend reach for recovery support group comprised entirely women who have lost breast because cancer they can offer some excellent support and suggestions you have further questions please send mail hav some good access information and enjoy trying help other people wish the best you and your friend
sci.med	hives wife had hives during the first two months her pregnancy son months old breast fed now has the same symptoms she has been skin specialist but has merely prescribed various medicines one each visit though trial and error anti histamines worked both them but looks like becoming less effective are there other solutions thanks kiong beng kee dept information systems and computer science national university singapore lower kent ridge road singapore
sci.med	miscelaneous soon have baby questions article inz world std com rmccown world std com bob mccown writes about have our first baby and have few questions that dont seem able get answered our satisfaction reguarding having baby boy circumsized what are the medical pros and cons all heard its the parents unfortonately that truly about the best summation the research that there advantages stated circumcison included probably prevention penile cancer which interestingly occurs mostly men whose personal hygiene exceptionally poor simplicity personal hygiene prevention urinary tract infections and prevention unretractible foreskin disadvantages include infection from the procedure pain etc apologize trying pull this off the top head will post what discovered research did paper the topic research class nursing school really decision that the parents some parents use the reasoning that they will look like daddy and like their friends justification there nothing wrong with this just sure what you want since rather difficult uncircumcise male although major surgical procedure exists how about the pregnant woman sitting tub water heard stories infection etc how about after the water has broken long your membranes have not broken and you have not had any problems with your pregnancy should sit tub water however would recommend using your own bathtub your own home nearly impossible guarantee the cleanliness and safety public hot tubs nice warm bath can very relaxing especially your back killing you and would possibly advisable avoid bubble bath soap esp you are prone yeast infection hope these tips help you some elisa picl fsphy physics fsu edu
sci.med	kidney stones banschbach vms ocom okstate edu marty banschbach writes medicine has not and probalby never will practiced this way there has always been the use conventional wisdom very good example kidney stones conventional wisdom because clinical trails have not been done come with effective prevention was that restricitng the intake calcium and oxalates was the best way prevent kidney stones from forming clinical trials focused drugs ultrasonic blasts breakdown the stone once formed through the recent new england medicine article now know that conventional wisdom was wrong increasing calcium intake better preventing stone formation than restricting calcium intake marty marty personally wouldn quick and take that nejm article kidney stones gospel first all would want know who sponsored that study have seen too many nutrition bulletins over the years from local newspapers magazines guide with disclaimers the bottom informing that this great health news was brought compliments the dairy industries there are course numerous other interest groups now that thrive financially the media hype created from the supposedly enormous benefits increasing one calcium intake secondly were all the kidney stones the test subjects involved that project analysed for their chemical composition the study didn say that only claimed that most kidney stones are large calcium perhaps won long before another study comes with the exact opposite findings curious phenomenon with researchers that they are oftentimes just plain wrong wouldn the first time sodium magnesium calcium phosphorus ratios are opinion still the most reliable indicators for the cause treatment and prevention kidney stones for one will continue recommend the most logical changes one diet through supplementation counteract prevent kidney stones either type and they definitely won include increase calcium the stones have been identified being the calcium type and people chemical analysis confirms that they would benefit from phosphorus raising approach instead ron roth internet rose com rosenet ron roth rosehamilton stone the ground better than stone the body rosereader entered rosehamilton rosemail usenet rose media hamilton
sci.med	umbilical hernia article apr shannon wits gary concave wits gary taylor writes could anyone give information umbilical hernias the patient over weight and has protruding hernia surgery may risky due the obesity what other remedies could try unless the patient has very short life expectancy the possible complications from hernia that hasn been repaired far outweigh the risks surgery the risks surgery anyway are minimal unless they are exceedingly large hernias can fixed under local anesthesia don forget that hernias are one the leading causes small bowel obstruction and the smaller the hernia the higher the chances that loop bowel will become incarcerated strangulated howard doyle doyle pitt edu
sci.med	candida yeast bloom fact fiction currently the throes hay fever attack who certainly never reads usenet let alone sci med said quite spontaneously there are lot mushrooms and toadstools out the lawn the moment sure that not your problem well who knows maybe the sourdough bread bake after reading learned semi learned possibly ignorant and downright ludicrous stuff this thread about ready believe anything the hayfever gets any worse maybe will cook those toadstools the floggings will continue until morale improves pchurch swell actrix gen pat churchill wellington new zealand
sci.med	opinions allergy hay fever shots article apr midway uchicago edu jacquier gsbux uchicago edu eric jacquier writes interested trying this desensitization method against hay fever what the state affairs about this went doctor and paid for minute interview scratches leading the diagnostic that allergic june and timothy grass believe this from now looks like shots per week for months followed shot per month each shot costs talking about soaring costs and the health care system would call that racket are not talking about rare amazonian grasses here but the garbage which grows behind the doctor office apart from this issue was somewhat disappointed find out that you have keep getting the shots forever that right thanks for information your public library and get the february issue consumer reports article allergy shots begins page this article must reading for anyone contemplating allergy shots
sci.med	sinus surgery septoplasty article badboyc fgq netcom com badboy netcom com jay keller writes already heard from couple who said they had and didn really help them moderately severe asthmatic ent doc says large percentage see some relief their asthma after sinus surgery also said not unheard that migraines away after chronis sinusitis relieved did your ent also tell you that this procedure may remove warts from the soles your feet and improve your sex life
sci.med	allergic reactions against laser printers hello does anyone know about allergic reactions caused the developer toner laser printers what chemical stuff involved thanks advance reinhard email rdd ibma ipp garching mpg
sci.med	strain gage applications vivo article apr organpipe uug arizona edu ame bigdog engr arizona edu terrance dishongh writes greeting starting work project where trying make strain gages bond bone vivo period several months currently using hydroxyapaptite back gages and have tried bonding the gages the bone apart from those two application methods there doesn seem much else the literature have only engineering background not medical biological would interest any ideas about how stimulte bone growth the surface cortical bone thanks for oyur help advance terrance dishongh ame bigdog engr arizona edu terrance there good article entitled long term vivo bone strain measurement device journal investigative surgery szivek magee think you can find some others searching medline partap khalsa faco post doc research fellow mass med school
sci.med	feverfew for migraines article ltrdroinnltf exodus eng sun com brenda bookhouse eng sun com brenda bowden writes does anyone know about these studies have experience with feverfew skeptical but open trying can find out more about this what feverfew and how much would you take prevent migraines this good idea that are there any known risks side effects feverfew thanks advance for any info brenda tried and has one friend mine known side effects risks didn seem work for but several studies now have suggested does work for many people think worth try you can find capsule form health food stores six capsules day was recommended remember correctly can also prepared tea good luck john
sci.med	urine analysis someone please help searching find out many others may absolute cure removing all detectable traces marijuana from persons body there chemical natural substance that can ingested added urine make undetectable urine analysis where can these substances found you know this information please email directly thank you kindly for your support randy
sci.med	sinus surgery septoplasty article kmldorf utdallas edu george kimeldorf writes article badboy netcom com jay keller writes already heard from couple who said they had and didn really help them moderately severe asthmatic ent doc says large percentage see some relief their asthma after sinus surgery also said not unheard that migraines away after chronis sinusitis relieved did your ent also tell you that this procedure may remove warts from the soles your feet and improve your sex life actually severe headaches due stopped sinuses plugged ostia are possible and sinus surgery which widens the ostia from the normal about should relieve this there are non surgical ways however keep the ostia open however few individuals their ostia are naturally very small and ivker book talks about this the underlying cause chronic sinusitis not cured this kind sinus surgery though about asthma that little more controversial ivker his book sinus survival speculates and says not proven that many cases asthma are triggered chronic sinusitis due the excessive drainage postnasal drip from the sinuses had many patients who found relief from asthma when the chronic sinusitis reduced eliminated not clinical proof but compelling anecdotal information this speculation before doing any sinus surgery first get the book discusses surgery well good non surgical treatment program for chronic sinusitis jon noring charter member infj club you dying know what infj means brave mail send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international fred gourmet chocolate carlton place phone chips world best livermore mail who are you read alt psychology personality that where the action
sci.med	what the origin stat article apr zeus calpoly edu dfield flute calpoly edu infospunj dan field writes the term stat used not only medicine but commonly used indicator that something urgent does anyone know where came from dictionary was not helpful from the word statim latin think meaning immediately howard doyle doyle pitt edu
sci.med	info colonics and purification article rjn einnnqn minerva cis yale edu wiesel elisha yale edu elisha wiesel writes recently come upon body literature which promotes colon cleansing vital aid preventive medicine through nutrition doubt the sci med folks are getting out their flamethrowers rather certain that the information you got was not medical literature the accepted academic scientific journals the righteous among them will doubt jump that also insofar doesn conform the accepted medical presumption that just doesn matter what you eat and that can think the tract black box which nothing ever goes wrong except for maybe cancer and ulcers the righteous will doubt jump that too then there the ones who call your doctor raving quack even though like linus pauling lucid and robust well into his nineties but nevermind about that shouldn charge for his equipment and supplies since they doubt not approved the fda course with fda approval pharmaceutical company can charge whatever they can get for such safe and effective treatments thalidomide but nevermind about that either unfortunately you dared step into the sacred turf net medical discussion without credential and without understanding that the righteous among them will make certain that you are suitably denounced before dismissing you fool but maybe somebody without such huge chip their shoulder will send you some reasonable responses mail yes did have point few years ago with thriving practice very wealthy part silicon valley once recommended that take such treatments clear skin condition not through his office might add although sure that not conclusive was sure unusual prescription
sci.med	kidney stones article apr cts eiu edu cfaks cts eiu edu alice sanders writes student told today that she has been diagnosed with kidney stones cyst one kidney and kidney infection she was upset because her condition had been misdiagnosed since last fall and she has been ill all this time during her most recent doctor appointment her parents hmo clinic she said that about forty rays were made her kidney when she asked why many rays were being made she was told technician that they need see the area from different views but she says that about five rays were made from each angle she couldn help feeling that something must wrong with the procedure something she pre med student and feels she could have understood what was happening someone would have explained when nobody would she got worried also she told that thre are surgery patients ahead her and that they cannot surgery until august now april she supposed rest lot and drink fluids but she has classes she wonders why they have given her medicine she plans call back her doctor office clinic and try get answers these questions but told her would also write sci med and see what could find out about why there were many rays and whether seems wait line more months for surgery for something like this whether she should looking elsewhere for her care she does plan get second opinion too will pass info her never hurts get information from more than one source you can mail post thanks alice opinion for what worth that rays way too many guidleines have been set the number dental rays and chest rays that one should have over given period time because all the environmental factors that can cause cancer humans ionizing radiation one the most potent splits dna and causes hydroxyl free radical formation tissue cells ultasound like that used seeing the fetus the uterus has been shown extremely good picking tumors the prostate and gallstones the gallbladder but kidney tissue may too dense for ultrasound work for kidney stones any radiologists care comment most stones will pass but very painful process unlike gallstones don think that there are many drugs that can help dissolve the kidney stone which probably calcium oxalate vitamin and magnesium have worked rabbits remove calcium from calcified plaques the aterial wall have idea diet change supplementation could speed the process kidney stone passage but pretty confident that diet change and supplementation can prevent reoccurance surgery being contemplated the stone must the kidney tubule second opinion good idea because there are better less damaging ways break the stone logged within the kidney sonic blasts hmo are notorious for conservative care and long waits for expensvie treatments condolences your friend marty
sci.med	earwax what the healthiest way deal with earwax should one just leave your ear and not mess with should you clean out every often can cleaning out damage your eardrums are there any tubes your ear that might get blocked stephen
sci.med	persistent chronic article enea enea apple com enea applelink apple com horace enea writes can anyone out there tell the difference between persistent disease and chronic one for example persistent hepatitis chronic hepatitis don think there general distinction rather there are two classes chronic hepatitis chronic active hepatitis and chronic persistent hepatitis can think any other disease where the term persistent used with preference chronic much these two terms chronic active and chronic persistent sound fuzzy the actual distinction between the two conditions often fairly fuzzy well david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
sci.med	old sermon was krillean photography article oil vuse vanderbilt edu alex vuse vanderbilt edu alexander zijdenbos writes flame reading through the posts about kirlian whatever spelling photography couldn help but being slightly disgusted the narrow minded know all don believe what can see measure attitude many people out there neither real believer nor disbeliever when comes called paranormal stuff but far concerned just likely the existence for instance god which seems quite accepted our societies without any scientific basis convinced that serious mistake close your mind something anything simply because doesn fit your current frame reference history shows that many great people great scientists were people who kept open mind and were ridiculed sceptics especially the usa should grateful after all columbus did not drop off the edge the earth flame off end sermon know that sermon posted roughly every month different persons and that doesn make any better how did you get the idea that skeptics are closed minded why don you consider the possibility that they came their conclusions the proper methods besides one can come conclusion without closing one mind other possibilities you don agree with person please ask him why thinks like that instead insulting him perhaps right follow your own advice open minded you don post bit evidence for your claims complain that always those neither real believer nor disbeliever types who narrow mindedly judge others without knowing their motives thomas kettenring dan kaiserslautern germany the extraterrestrials don even know this planet has native inhabitants their government doesn tell them
sci.med	allergic reactions against laser printers sci med rdd uts ipp garching mpg reinhard drube writes hello does anyone know about allergic reactions caused the developer toner laser printers what chemical stuff involved thanks advance reinhard email rdd ibma ipp garching mpg ever after years having health problems that had been cleared allery shots and not knowing why went and was tested actually did better than when had been tested years ago then putting together realized that all started back when the laser printer came into the office kept track the usage and use days was worse got better over the weekends the laser printer gone better whether the toner dust chemicals dont know highly allergic dust but definitely was the laser printer brenda peters carderock div nswc david taylor model basin bethesda mail cape dtvms navy mil bpeters oasys navy mil
sci.med	vitamin doses forgive but just the other day read some newsgroup other physician posting about the theraputic uses vitamin can seem locate the article but recall there was mention some safe limits looked balanced time release formulation from walgreen and noted that the was some thousands times the rda this safe also what was the condition that was theraputic for mail would just fine you don want clog the net thanks leon traister lmtra uts amdahl com
sci.med	krillean photography article fum news claremont edu ebrandt jarthur claremont edu eli brandt writes article mmeyer apr dseg com mmeyer dseg com mark meyer writes besides kirilian photography actually photography friend two year old son kiril perhaps you meant kirlian think was typo for karelian photography which the practice taking pictures either finns russians depending whom one asks think can lose the sci image processing group from this thread folks thanks bunches spl steve lamont sciviguy spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource san diego jolla other car car too bumper strip seen
sci.med	chromium dietary suppliment for weight loss wife has requested that poll the sages usenet see what known about the use chromium weight control diet suppliments she has seen multiple products advertising and would like any kind real information first impulse was yuck metal but have zero data what you know henry melton rhca melton sps mot com
sci.med	centi and milli pedes msnyder nmt edu rebecca snyder writes does anyone know how posionous centipedes and millipedes are someone was bitten how soon would medical treatment needed and what would liable happen the person just for clarification have not been bitten one these but house seems infested and want know just case rebecca millipedes understand are vegetarian and therefore almost certainly will not bite and are not poisonous centipedes are carnivorous and although don have any absolute knowledge this would tend think that you danger from anything but concerted assault several million them
sci.med	krillean photography article efi com alanm efi com alan morgan writes article oil vuse vanderbilt edu alex vuse vanderbilt edu alexander zijdenbos writes neither real believer nor disbeliever when comes called paranormal stuff but far concerned just likely the existence for instance god which seems quite accepted our societies without any scientific basis oooooh bad example atheist this not flame abuse nor want start another thread this after all supposed about image processing but say you atheist suggest you have proof there god politically correct skeptic better with agnostic like thomas trusk dept cellular biology anatomy email ttrusk its mcw edu medical college wisconsin milwaukee
sci.med	schatzki ring pvc article apr betsy gsfc nasa gov ohandley betsy gsfc nasa gov wrote summarized person with schatzki ring membrane partially blocking the espphagus has worsening dysphagia difficulty swallowing and the doctor proposes dilation balloow bougie using inflatable balloon rupture the ring rubber hose push through question balloon dilation safe common and indicated sounds pretty invasive end summary yes this common and safe procedure the majority schatzki rings described ray however wnd being due inflammation instead the congenital schatzki ring occassionally cancer masquerades ring you should have the endoscopy see due the heartburn and you will need treatment for the heartburn ong term the balloon dilation alternative cutting open your chest and cutting out section the esophagus dilation not all invasive considering the alternative the second issue summarized has had extra heartbeats for the past years and once was symptomatic from them with some lightheadedness young ish thin and good health recent bloodtests were all normal and not smoke use drugs caffeine etc willing accept the extra beats normal but don want ignore them they might some kind warning symptom the number pvc seems increase throughout the day and with exercise something simple climbing some stairs also get after sitting lying down for while tend get couple extra beats could they possibly related the esophagous problems both seemed develop about the same time not expert heart problems but pvc are common and have been overtreated the past personal experience and have the same history build you related the heart that that pvc come and with some months causing anxiety taking more fluids seems help and they seem worse the summer remember that slow heart rate will allow more pvc apparent perhaps indication healthy cardiac system but ask expert about that last point especially good luck hope don die arrhythmias god what happy thought steve holland
sci.med	info colonics and purification article apr informix com hartman informix com robert hartman writes article rjn einnnqn minerva cis yale edu wiesel elisha yale edu elisha wiesel writes recently come upon body literature which promotes colon cleansing vital aid preventive medicine through nutrition doubt the sci med folks are getting out their flamethrowers rather certain that the information you got was not medical literature the accepted academic scientific journals the righteous among them will doubt jump that also insofar doesn conform the accepted medical presumption that just doesn matter what you eat and that can think the tract black box which nothing ever goes wrong except for maybe cancer and ulcers the righteous will doubt jump that too then there the ones who call your doctor raving quack even though like linus pauling lucid and robust well into his nineties but nevermind about that shouldn charge for his equipment and supplies since they doubt not approved the fda course with fda approval pharmaceutical company can charge whatever they can get for such safe and effective treatments thalidomide but nevermind about that either unfortunately you dared step into the sacred turf net medical discussion without credential and without understanding that the righteous among them will make certain that you are suitably denounced before dismissing you fool but maybe somebody without such huge chip their shoulder will send you some reasonable responses mail yes did have point few years ago with thriving practice very wealthy part silicon valley once recommended that take such treatments clear skin condition not through his office might add although sure that not conclusive was sure unusual prescription the bacteria your gut are important but colonic flushes are not the way improve gut function each person has almost unique mix bacteria his her gut diet affects this mix does the use antibiotics diet change much better way alter the players your gut than colonic flushes cross contamination has been real problem some the outfits that this treatment since the equipment not always cleaned well should between patient treatments dental drills have little concerned about hiv infection and picked dentist that uses both chemical and autoclave sterilization his instruments more clostly but much safer full sterile technique also used just like that practiced mask gloves and gowns worn and disposed between patients each visit costs dollars more than the standard and customary fee have pay out pocket his much higher fees not drive away patients can not think any good reason why someone should subject themselves this colonic flush procedure for very little any benefit you subject yourself hepatitis cholera parasitic disease and even hiv just ask yourself why someone might resort this kind treatment could they having distress could this distress due pathogenic organism could get this organism the equipment not cleaned properly between patients really want take this risk food for thought marty
sci.med	hives article apr nuscc nus isckbk nuscc nus kiong beng kee wrote wife had hives during the first two months her pregnancy son months old breast fed now has the same symptoms she has been skin specialist but has merely prescribed various medicines one each visit though trial and error anti histamines worked both them but looks like becoming less effective are there other solutions thanks kiong beng kee dept information systems and computer science national university singapore lower kent ridge road singapore food products can get through breast milk and cause allergies the young since the son allergic would best not bottle feedings but rather eliminate foods from mother diet your pediatrician should able give you list foods avoid good luck steve
sci.med	centi and milli pedes article castle gtclark festival clark writes msnyder nmt edu rebecca snyder writes does anyone know how posionous centipedes and millipedes are someone was bitten how soon would medical treatment needed and what would liable happen the person just for clarification have not been bitten one these but house seems infested and want know just case rebecca millipedes understand are vegetarian and therefore almost certainly will not bite and are not poisonous centipedes are carnivorous and although don have any absolute knowledge this would tend think that you danger from anything but concerted assault several million them not sure this but think some millipedes cause toxic reaction sting would not assume that they are not dangerous merely the basis vegetarianism after all wasps are vegetarian too dnc
sci.med	should angry this doctor how about going doctor get some minor surgery done doctor refuses because risky still charges home and myself problem the surgery involved digging out pine needle that had buried itself under tongue mike
sci.med	help for kidney stones wvnvms wvnet edu wrote girlfriend pain from kidney stones she says that because she has medical insurance she cannot get them removed question there any way she can treat them herself least mitigate their effects any help deeply appreciated advice referral literature etc thank you dave carvell wvnvms wvnet edu first off would consider the severity the pain had stones several years ago and there now way could have made without heavy duty doses morphine and demerol and two week stay the hospital was told that there was nothing that could take that would dissolve them the stones are passible the best thing she could drink lots water and hope that they pass but every time they move little the pain will excrutiating was told doctor that time that the pain was comparable that childbirth yes male doctor sure some you women will disagree really like know the truth this maybe some you women who have had baby and kidney stone could fill jeff silva jeffs com
sci.med	sinus surgery septoplasty article utdallas edu kmldorf utdallas edu george kimeldorf writes article badboyc fgq netcom com badboy netcom com jay keller writes already heard from couple who said they had and didn really help them moderately severe asthmatic ent doc says large percentage see some relief their asthma after sinus surgery also said not unheard that migraines away after chronis sinusitis relieved did your ent also tell you that this procedure may remove warts from the soles your feet and improve your sex life you probably were trying facetious but just for the record partial nasal obstruction correlated with number chronic disorders such migraine hyperthyroidism asthma peptic ulcer dysmenorrhea and lack libido riga rev oto neuro ophthalmol cardiac symptoms jackson annals otology cvetnic cvetnic rhinology cottle rhinology and fever inadequate oral intake and electrolyte imbalance fairbanks dnf otorhinolaryngology head and neck surgery before you post your inane comments would nice you run medline search the topic say back there been extensive literature this for over years may cardiology but had very good working relationship with colleagues from ent josh backon vms huji
sci.med	earwax stephen mont missouri edu stephen montgomery smith writes what the healthiest way deal with earwax should one just leave your ear and not mess with should you clean out every often can cleaning out damage your eardrums are there any tubes your ear that might get blocked assuming that the wax causing hearing loss congestion popping the ears you can try some cautious tepid water irrigation with bulb syringe but awkward for oneself and may not work may even make things worse wife would disagree she does successfully every six months any case not attempt anything with tips experience has been that this initially best handled ear nose throat person say initially because ent can evaluate whether not you might have success your own with little instruction not physician obviously because eschew the term otolaryngologist this posting based only personal experience usual disclaimer the best the enemy the good voltaire leon traister lmtra amdahl uts amdahl com amdahl corporation arques ave box sunnyvale
sci.med	strain gage applications vivo greeting starting work project where trying make strain gages bond bone vivo period several months currently using hydroxyapaptite back gages and have tried bonding the gages the bone apart from those two application methods there doesn seem much else the literature have only engineering background not medical biological would interest any ideas about how stimulte bone growth the surface cortical bone thanks for oyur help advance terrance dishongh ame bigdog engr arizona edu
sci.med	great canadian scientists about two years ago posted the following planning write new book called great canadian scientists please forward your nominations shell sfu the rules are that the person must canadian citizen they don have born canada even live canada but they must have have had they are dead canadian citizenship while they are were great canadian scientists about people have been nominated already and they are listed the end this posting not quite sure what should constitute greatness and there may gray area here you have any ideas criteria for greatness would pleased hear them any event please nominate people even you are not sure they are great would like big list possible please give name and email address phone number mail address that can contact the person you don know any the above then give their last known whereabouts also please give your reason for why you think the person should considered great canadian scientist after have the list will choose about six the most interesting ones and depth biographies those individuals the style tracy kidder soul new machine some other dramatic technique the rest the great canadian scientists will appear appedix with one paragraph biographies you have any other ideas about this project interested hear them far have received nominations follows first name last name nominator famous for sid altman kuszewski john catalytic rna nobel chem frederick banting insulin nobel medicine davidson black stanley robert discovered peking man james bolton warden joseph chemistry raoul bott smith steven math algebraic topology willard boyle chamm craig inventor ccd gerard bull stanley robert ballistics and gunnery dennis chitty galindo leal carlos first animal ecologist brian conway tellefsen karen electrochemistry stephen cook mendelzon alberto completeness complexity copp kuch gerald biochem aspects physiol coxeter calkin neil regular polytopes math daykin palmer bill chem mosquito repellant duckworth anonymous mass spectroscopy admin jack edmonds snoeyink jack math operations research reginald fessenden johnsen hans wire insulation light bulb ursula franklin mckellin william physics archeol materials gray gray tom nuclear physics the gray guptill chamm craig slotted array radar donald hebb lyons michael learning hebbian synapses gerhard herzberg optical spectr nobel james hillier electron microscope can crawford holling galindo leal carlos ecology predators and prey david hubel lyons michael visual cortex nobel med kenneth iverson dare gary invented apl jackson austern matt elementary particle theory andre joyal pananagden prakash category theory categ logic martin kamen carbon canadian amer irving kaplansky knighten bob algebra functional analysis george kell kell dave hot water freezing kellogg palmer bill chem mosquito repellant geraldine kenney wallace siegman anthony chemistry administration brian kernaghan brader mark programming language michael klein marchi massimo theoretical chemistry charles krebs galindo leal carlos ecology krebs effect laidler tellefsen karen chemical kinetics laurence palmer bill physics raymond lemieux smith earl first synthesized glucose martin levine meunier robert computer vision edward lowry himself computer programming pere marie victorin meunier robert jardin botanique montreal colin macleod turner steven nobel dna discovery marshall mcluhan clamen stewart social sci communications ben morrison willson david aurora borealis lawrence morley strome murray plate tektonics remote sense farley mowat abbott john northern animal rights kevin ogilvie kendrick kelly genetics cure for herpes sir william osler lyons michael medicine peebles vishniac ethan most important cosmologist wilder penfield perri marie anatomical basis for memory john polanyi chemiluminescensce nobel denis poussart meunier robert computer vision anatol rapoport lloyd jones david conflict theory game theory howard rapson sutherland russell pulp chemistry hans selye goel anil psychology stress william stephenson wilkins darin enigma code wire photo boris stoicheff siegman anthony raman spectroscopy david suzuki meister darren science communication henry taube parker wiley physical chemistry nobel richard taylor manuel john verified quark model nobel david thompson eisler michael mapped western canada endel tulving green christopher psychology memory bill tutte royle gordon matroid theory math uchida palmer bill down syndrome tuzo wilson collier john continental drift theory wright palmer bill chem mosquito repellant allen yen leone pasquale baseline interferometry walter zinn breader reactor can amer the list growing nicely amazing see just how much was discovered canadians actually there are many more who were born canada but became americans after graduate school please note lot people have nominated alexander graham bell but feel was really scottish american with summer home canada now know this debatable but please don nominate him again anyone can fill some the question marks the list please drop line that was two years ago since then have received grant from science culture canada division supply and services canada research the book since old posting the book has evolved into educational book for kids aged though this may change again will have about two page spreads with large graphic the middle and text graphic boxes all around the following subjects vital statistics and photo the scientist personal statement from the scientist narrative few moments the life the scientist what was doing when was you want insert kind scientist experiment you can there will appendix with more scientists with one paragraph biographies who didn quite make the double spreads the whole thing will then published rom with video and sound clips for added richness looking for rom publisher well the text part may also available the canarie electronic highway being developed canada well still looking for publisher though penguin canada came close being hope find one soon would like again ask for more nominations especially the pure sciences physics chemistry and biology also criticisms the list are welcomed also women and french canadian scientists are needed hope this posting will get others nominate more great canadian scientists and discuss what great what canadian and what scientist please respond shell sfu barry shell quebec vancouver canada thanks all who responded already
sci.med	krillean photography article oil vuse vanderbilt edu alex vuse vanderbilt edu alexander zijdenbos writes flame especially the usa should grateful after all columbus did not drop off the edge the earth with counterflame enabled columbus was indeed crank but not the manner you think the fact that the world was round was well known when set sail was also well known that the circumference was about miles and that you could not reach asia going west with current technology you would neither able carry enough supplies nor get long enough stretch good sailing weather nobody thought would fall off the edge the world instead they expected him die sea columbus thought for good reason that the circumference was only miles making the trip practical unfortunately for columbus and his shipmates the earth circumference indeed miles fortunately for columbus and his shipmates there was stopping place right about where asia would have been had the circumference been miles source the recent pbs series columbus flame off end sermon alex
sci.med	med school actually entering vet school next year but the question relevant for med students too memorizing large amounts has never been strong point academically since this major portion medical education anatomy histology pathology pharmacology are for the most part mass memorization little concerned sure most med students are can anyone suggest techniques for this type memorization have had reasonable success with nemonics and memory tricks like thinking little stories associate unrelated things but have never applied them large amounts data has anyone had luck with any particular books memory systems cheap software can you suggest any helpful organizational techniques being older student who returned school this year organization another one weak points has been major help success please griping about how all you have learn the material conceptually have problem with that one strong points but you can get around the fact that much medicine rote memorization thanks for your help
sci.med	epilepsy and video games there have been few postings the past alleged pathological esp neurological conditions induced playing video games nintendo apparently there have been reported several cases photosensitive epilepsy due the flashing some patterns and the strong attention the young players one poster comp risks reported some action from the british government quick search database reported the following two published references hart nintendo epilepsy new england med daneshmend dark warrior epilepsy bmj would appreciate someone could post mail any reference preferably published further work the subject any pointer other information and possible technical tools any for reducing the risks are appreciated many thanks antonella alessandro pisa italy
sci.med	centi and milli pedes apr vms ocom okstate edu chorley vms ocom okstate edu writes article castle gtclark festival clark writes msnyder nmt edu rebecca snyder writes does anyone know how posionous centipedes and millipedes are someone was bitten how soon would medical treatment needed and what would liable happen the person just for clarification have not been bitten one these but house seems infested and want know just case rebecca millipedes understand are vegetarian and therefore almost certainly will not bite and are not poisonous centipedes are carnivorous and although don have any absolute knowledge this would tend think that you danger from anything but concerted assault several million them not sure this but think some millipedes cause toxic reaction sting would not assume that they are not dangerous merely the basis vegetarianism after all wasps are vegetarian too dnc child can remember picking centipede and getting rather painful sting but quickly subsided much less painful compared bee sting centipedes have poison claw one the front feet stun their prey but single experience did not have lot bite
sci.med	pregnency without sex article frk apxl andrew cmu edu gabriel underwood gabe cmu edu writes heard great civil war story guy the battlfield shot the groin the bullet continues path and lodges the abdomen female spectator and behold the legend goes both parents survived married and raised the child who turned out real son gun
sci.med	depression believe that depression can have dietary component depression can also have various chemical environmental components noticed that became depressed various buildings and home when the air conditioning was subsequent testing revealed that was allergic stemphyllium mold commonly found air conditioners after began taking antigens that problem disappeared bruce
sci.med	allergic reactions against laser printers laser printers often emit ozone which smells sort like clorox adequate ventilation recommended michael covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt uga edu the university georgia phone athens georgia amateur radio tmi
sci.med	help for kidney stones article iua srgenprp com jeffs com jeff silva writes wvnvms wvnet edu wrote move little the pain will excrutiating was told doctor that time that the pain was comparable that childbirth yes male doctor sure some you women will disagree really like know the truth this maybe some you women who have had baby and kidney stone could fill one more reason for men learn the lamaze breathing techniques order able get some pain reduction instantly wherever you are michael covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt uga edu the university georgia phone athens georgia amateur radio tmi
sci.med	help for kidney stones recall from bout with kidney stones there isn any medication that can anything about them except relieve the pain either they pass they have broken with sound they have extracted surgically when was the ray tech happened mention that she had kidney stones and children and the childbirth hurt less demerol worked although nearly got arrested way home when barfed all over the police car parked just outside the brian
sci.med	depression some the this newsgroup have been riding butt pretty good maybe some cases with good reason this post depression laying all out continue post here because think that have some knowledge that could useful once you have read this post you should know where coming from when post again the future article netnews upenn edu lchaplyn mail sas upenn edu lida chaplynsky writes family member mine suffering from severe depression brought menopause well mental break down she being treated with halydol with some success but the treatments being provided through her psychiatrist are not satisfactory someone suggested contacting nutritionist discuss alternative treatment since she sensitive medication think this good suggestion but don know where begin anyone can suggest philly area nutritionist else some literature read appreciate lida can emphasize with your situation both wife and suffered from bouts depression her was brought breast cancer and mine was rebound stress reaction her modified radical mastectomy and chemotherapy lida used knowledge nutrition get her through her six months chemotherapy with the approval her oncologist when severe depression set few months after the chemo stopped tried use supplements bring her out had cured her pms using supplements and really thought that knew enough about the role diet depression take care her depression well didn work and she was put prozac her oncologist two winters ago three years after wife breast cancer got hit with severe depression pretty typical and one reason why many marriages break after breast cancer another stressor tried take care for several months with supplementation didn work internist ended putting prozac was going give you list several studies that have been done using niacin folate and cure depression not going that because all you would doing flying blind like was lida believe that depression can have dietary component but the problem that you need know exactly what the problem and then use approach which will fix the problem for chemotherapy knew exactly what drugs were going used and exactly what nutrients would affected same thing for pms was flying blind for both these stressors but the literature that used devise treatment program was pretty good depression just too complicated what you really need nutritional scan this not diet analysis but analysis your bodies nutrient reserves for every vitamin and mineral except vitamin you have reserve the rda not designed give you enough any nutrient keep these reserves full only designed keep them from being emptied which would cause clinical pathology stress will increase your need for many vitamins and minerals this when your reserves become very important lida without your permission going use your post conduit try explain the readers this group and sci med where coming from have taught course human nutrition one the osteopathic medical schools for ten years now written own textbook because none was available what teach not rehash biochemistry preach nutrient reserves yes lectures this course are referred students sermons here what cover indroduction and carbohydrates lipids proteins proteins energy balance evaluation nutritional status clinical perspective evaluation nutritional status evaluation nutritional biochemical perspective status iii homework assignment using the nutritionist diet and fitness analysis software program weight control food fads and facts age related change nutrient requirements food additives contaminants and cancer drug nutrient interactions mineral and water balance sodium potassium and chloride calcium magnesium and phosphorus iron zinc and copper iodine and fluoride other trace minerals vitamin vitamin vitamins and vitamin thiamin and niacin riboflavin and pyridoxine pantothenic and folic acids biotin and other nutrient factors enteral nutrition parenteral nutrition every three years spend entire summer reviewing the medical literature find material that can use nutrition textbook last did this the summer read everything that can find and then sit down and rewrite lecture handouts which are bound three separate books that have and pages opposite each page written text which write myself pulled figures tables and graphs from various copyrighted sources since this material only being used for educational purposes can get around the copyright laws far can not send this material out newsgroup readers been asked now the process trying get grant setup nutrition assessment lab this the last peice the nutrition puzzle that need make education program complete this lab will let measure the nutrient reserve for almost all the vitamins and minerals that are known required humans the mayo clinic already uses similiar lab design supplement programs for their cancer patients cancer treatment centers america which private for profit organization with hospitals illinois and oklahoma tulsa also operates nutritional assessment clinical lab also believe that the pritikin clinic california has similiar lab setup for physicians reading this post would suggest that you get the new clinical nutrition textbook that has just been published feb mosby have been using alpers manual nutritional therapeutics little brown series book supplemental text for course but alpers geared more residency training two have written this new clinical nutrition textbook and geared more towards medical student education and does good job covering the lab tests that can run assess patient nutritional status let quote few sentences from the preface this new text called nutrition specialists were reality gastroenterologists hematologists pediatricians who just happened profess some knowledge nutrition related their field practice unfortunately about two thirds the medical schools the united states require formal instruction nutrition but times and medical practice have changed more than half the leading causes death this country are nutrition related this monograph should accomplish the following two objectives should complement your medical training emphasizing the relevance nutrition your medical practice and should heighten your awareness nutrition medical speciality that vitally important for both disease prevention and the treatment diseases essentially every organ system roland weinsier drph lida advise you that you tell your family members try find physician who has understanding the role that vitamins and minerals yes even magnesium may play role depression play depression and who could get nutritional profile run menopause often time when women suffer depression there are lot hormonal changes that are occuring but they are not the same ones that occur during pms nutritionist may also able help not too long ago poster mentioned that his nutritionist had diagnosed selenium deficiency based red cell glutathionine peroxidase test the specific test for the selenium reserve most clinical labs will not run this test and advised him try make sure that the lab that did the test was certified there are also lot hair and nail analysis labs setup trace mineral analysis but these labs are not regulated checks these labs using certified standards and also those doing water lead analysis showed some pretty shoddy testing was going you anyone else finds someone who will run these speciality nutrition tests make sure that they are using lab that has been certified under clia the clinical laboratory improvement act diet analysis may helpful since many nutrient reserves have been shown correlate fairly well with the dietary intake monitored food logging and software analysis nutritionist and other software programs but there are still about half the nutrients required humans that not show very good correlation between apparent dietary intake and reserve status until have more nutritional assessment clinical labs operation the and physicians who have been trained how use the nutritional profile that these labs provide devise treatment approach that uses diet changes and supplementation anti depressants will probably continue the best approach depression martin banschbach professor biochemistry and chairman department biochemistry and microbiology osu college osteopathic medicine without discourse there remembering without remembering there learning without learning there only ignorance
sci.med	earwax stephen ear wax healthy way help prevent ear infections both preventing barrier and also with some antibiotic properties too much can block the external auditory canal the hole the outside the ear and cause some hearing problems very simple and safe remove excess wax your own your physician office you can take syringe needles and fill with warm water cold can cause fainting and otc hydrogen peroxide then point the ear towards the ceiling about degrees and insert the tip the syringe helps have someone else this and firmly expell the solution depending the size the syringe and the tenacity the wax this could take several rinses you place bowl under the ear catch the water will much drier you can buy syringe with special tip your local pharmacy just use whatever you may have wax old will harder and darker you can try adding few drops olive oil into the ear during shower soften the wax this for couple days then try syringing again also safe point your ear the shower head and allow the water rinse out good luck heather
sci.med	kidney stones article apr rose com ron roth rose com ron roth writes banschbach vms ocom okstate edu marty banschbach writes medicine has not and probalby never will practiced this way there has always been the use conventional wisdom very good example kidney stones conventional wisdom because clinical trails have not been done come with effective prevention was that restricitng the intake calcium and oxalates was the best way prevent kidney stones from forming clinical trials focused drugs ultrasonic blasts breakdown the stone once formed through the recent new england medicine article now know that conventional wisdom was wrong increasing calcium intake better preventing stone formation than restricting calcium intake marty marty personally wouldn quick and take that nejm article kidney stones gospel first all would want know who sponsored that study have seen too many nutrition bulletins over the years from local newspapers magazines guide with disclaimers the bottom informing that this great health news was brought compliments the dairy industries there are course numerous other interest groups now that thrive financially the media hype created from the supposedly enormous benefits increasing one calcium intake secondly were all the kidney stones the test subjects involved that project analysed for their chemical composition the study didn say that only claimed that most kidney stones are large calcium perhaps won long before another study comes with the exact opposite findings curious phenomenon with researchers that they are oftentimes just plain wrong wouldn the first time sodium magnesium calcium phosphorus ratios are opinion still the most reliable indicators for the cause treatment and prevention kidney stones for one will continue recommend the most logical changes one diet through supplementation counteract prevent kidney stones either type and they definitely won include increase calcium the stones have been identified being the calcium type and people chemical analysis confirms that they would benefit from phosphorus raising approach instead ron roth ron you are absolutely right not all kidney stones have calcium and not all calcium stones are calcium oxalate but the vast majority are calcium oxalate calcium just one piece the puzzle cited that nejm article way pointing out some the physicians this group that conventional wisdom used medicine always has been and probably always will one uses conventional wisdom there chance that you will wrong long the error not going cause lot damage what the big deal why call physician who gives anti fungals sinus suffers distress patients quack the kidney stone problem want mineral profile run clinical chemistry lab balance much more important than the dietary intake calcium know that you use electrical conductance technique measure mineral balance the body know that you don think that the serum levels for minerals are very useful agree can get good nutritional assessment lab setup where can actually measure the tissue reserve for minerals like collaborative study with you see how your technique compares with mine marty
sci.med	opinions allergy hay fever shots have just started taking allergy shots month ago and still wondering what getting into friend mine told that the body change every years whatever that means and don need those antibody building allergy shots all does that make sense anyone btw can someone summarize what the consumer report february article
sci.med	cure for dry skin all skin very dry general but the most serious part located from knees down the skin there looks like segmented the segmentation actually happens beneath the skin would like know there any cure for this the supermarkets pharmacies there are quite lot stuffs for dry skins but what chose thanks advance for all advices and hints reply email preferred alex
sci.med	centi and milli pedes article apr nmt edu msnyder nmt edu rebecca snyder writes does anyone know how posionous centipedes and millipedes are the millipede around here austin have sting some the centipedes the question rebecca snyder asks much like asking how venomous are snakes one either wants ask which snake point some reference the many different species snake similarly there are many different species millipede and centipede these are different families millipedes have two pairs legs per body segment while centipedes have but one pair sorry this information not useful russell
sci.med	sumatripton spelling recently heard some testing new migraine drug called sumatripton have idea the actual spelling that supposedly utilizes chemical that trips neuro transmitters mother has regular migraines and nothing seems help does anyone know anything about this new drug testing phaze anywhere near approval does seem working any information would help please feel free mail rather than take bandwidth you prefer thanks advance rox roxannen cruzio santa cruz virtue relative term
sci.med	urine analysis article fxx athena uga edu mcovingt aisun uga edu michael covington writes article kps transfer stratus com randy faneuf vos stratus com writes someone please help searching find out many others may absolute cure removing all detectable traces marijuana from persons body there chemical natural substance that can ingested added urine make undetectable urine analysis where can these substances found you could what never near the stuff there always the old switcheroo brother works dialysis clinic they were interviewing candidates for technician job mainly electronics tech and urine screen was part the interview the bathroom was across the hall from lab one candidate managed switch his urine sample with one grabbed from the lab one was the time most inner city dialysis patients have quite few medical problems was immediately obvious what had happened brother fleetingly considered telling the candidate sorry but you are very ill and need medical attention immediately they offered him another well monitored chance and declined
sci.med	krillean photography alex vuse vanderbilt edu alexander zijdenbos writes flame reading through the posts about kirlian whatever spelling photography couldn help but being slightly disgusted the narrow minded know all don believe what can see measure attitude many people out there neither real believer nor disbeliever when comes called paranormal stuff but far concerned just likely the existence for instance god which seems quite accepted our societies without any scientific basis accepted whom people who think digital watches are real good idea that channels television better than channels television convinced that serious mistake close your mind something anything simply because doesn fit your current frame reference history shows that many great people great scientists were people who kept open mind and were ridiculed sceptics you right keep open mind the following taco flavored donuts cannibalism good way get that extra protein the diet belief yawanga armadillo god parking meters mark vandewettering truest servant yawanga yawanga who never will become road pizza all quarters and dimes nay even nickels will spent buy time park your eternal parking lot
sci.med	help for kidney stones article iua srgenprp com jeffs com jeff silva writes wvnvms wvnet edu wrote move little the pain will excrutiating was told doctor that time that the pain was comparable that childbirth yes male doctor sure some you women will disagree really like know the truth this maybe some you women who have had baby and kidney stone could fill had neither baby nor kidney stone but according aunt who has had plenty both kidney stone worse barbara
sci.med	chromium dietary suppliment for weight loss article apr newsgate sps mot com rhca melton sps mot com henry melton writes wife has requested that poll the sages usenet see what known about the use chromium weight control diet suppliments she has seen multiple products advertising and would like any kind real information first impulse was yuck metal but have zero data what you know henry melton tell you all that know about chromium but before want get few things off chest just got blasted mail for kidney stone posts kidney stones are primarily caused diet heart disease and cancer when give dietary advise not intended encourage people reading this news group sci med nutrition where most posting avoid seeing doctor nothing can further from the truth kidney stones can caused tumors and this possibility has ruled out but once diet good way preventing reoccurance same thing with heart disease and cancer you suspect that you may have problem with one these diseases don use what going tell you what you read some book avoid going doctor you have hopefully you will find doctor who knows enough about nutrition help you change your risk factors for both diseases part treatment program but the odds are that you will not and that why here when wife detected lump here breast didn say don worry vitamin will take care any breast lump has worked physician plan and simple begnin which most are fine then maybe diet change and supplementation will prevent further breast lumps from occuring but let tell you right now you have tried diet and supplementation and another lump returns get your butt into the doctor office fast your little feet can carry you better yet have mammography done regular basis wife kept putting her off both myself and her gynocologist told her she needed have one done her gynocologist even scheduled one but she didn show too busy running the operating room for the biggest hospital tulsa one more thing not orthomolecular nutritionist this group uses high dose vitamins and minerals treat all kinds disease there absolutely doubt mind that vitamins and minerals can and have drug actions the body but you talk about flying blind man this really blind treatment drug could ever used these vitamins and minerals are being used not saying that some this stuff couldn right the money may well but approach nutrition lot like that weinsier and morgan the two who wrote the new clinical nutrition textbook push the nutrient reserves and the lab tests needed measure these reserves and then supplementation diet changes get these reserves built where they should let you handle stress that where coming from folks blast away you want not going change put your killfile you want really don care averaging mail messages day from people who think that got something important say but also getting hit few with axe grind that life chromium one the trace elements has very limited but very important role the body used form glucose tolerance factor gtf gtf made chromium nicinamide niacin glycine cysteine and glutamic only the chromium and the niacin are needed from the diet form gtf some foods already have gtf liver brewers nutritional yeast and black pepper when chromium gtf pretty good absorption seen about but when simply present mineral mineral chelate chromium picolinate absorption much lower lowest for all the minerals been posting misc fitness and chromium has come there several times fat burner chromium among the least toxic the minerals you could really load yourself and not really any harm wouldn though the adequate and safe range for chromium per day the average american getting about per day from his her diet chromium levels decrease with age and many believe that adult onset diabetes primarily chromium deficiency can cite you several studies that have been done with glucose tolerance type diabetes but not going because for each positive one there also seems negative one well convinced that the problem bioavailability when yeast gtf used good results are obtained but when chromium itself used the results are usually negative addition type diabetes chromiuum has been examined cardiovascular disease and glucoma again with mixed results far cardiovascular disease concerned since high blood glucose level can lead cardiovascular disease this possible link with chromium isn too surprising glucoma little more interesting muscle eye focusing activity primarily insulin responsive glucose driven metabolic function this eye focusing activity impaired lack glucose due poor insulin response intraocular pressure believed elevated fairly large study pts with glaucoma the one consistent finding was low rbc chromium coll nutr but this one preliminary study should not prompt people out and start popping chromium supplements for one thing just about every older person going have low rbc chromium unless they have been taking chromium suppleemnts yeast since glucoma often found older people not too surprising that chromium was low the rbc chromium supplementation could reverse glucoma that would prompt some attention suspect that there will clinical trail check out this possible chromium link glucoma you could find out what your body chromium pool size was either the rbc chromium test hair analysis most clinical labs are not going run rbc chromium there are plenty labs that will hair and nail analysis for you but wouldn use them there just too much funny business going these unregulated labs right now here weinsier and morgan advise chromium they not consider chromium one those minerals for which reliable clinical test available they don like the hair and nail analysis labs either and they also recognize the rbc chromium primarily research test that not routinely available most clinical chemistry labs this has change and more labs run rbc chromiuum will what then they suggest make diagnosis chromium deficiency based documented clinical response chromium run glucose tolerance test before and after chromium supplementation once you make the diagnosis put the patient crcl orally each day grams yeast per day what advise don take chromium supplements try loose weight they just not work that way you want take them and then exercise that would great include yeast part your diet most americans are not getting enough chromium from their diet you have poor glucose tolerance ask your doctor check your chromium status when she says what the world are you talking about just say please get copy weinsier and morgan new clinical nutrition textbook and what they say with patients who present with poor glucose tolerance you can that find doctor who can thank you very much marty
sci.med	help for kidney stones michael covington mcovingt aisun uga edu wrote article iua srgenprp com jeffs com jeff silva writes wvnvms wvnet edu wrote move little the pain will excrutiating was told doctor that time that the pain was comparable that childbirth yes male doctor sure some you women will disagree really like know the truth this maybe some you women who have had baby and kidney stone could fill one more reason for men learn the lamaze breathing techniques order able get some pain reduction instantly wherever you are michael covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt uga edu the university georgia phone athens georgia amateur radio tmi would have been pretty difficult practice hee hee while was keeled over pukeing guts out though jeff silva jeffs com
sci.med	krillean photography before more bandwidth gets wasted this apologize for flame first because distributed the message many newsgroups did not check the crosspostings the article followed second for not making argument clear enough reacted the tone many the anti kirlian posts not their content right wrong found the arguments set arrogant and sneering words that includes jokes which still think unwarranted and obviously should not have done the same alex
sci.med	iridology any credence article dpw com jprice dpw com janice price writes saw printed flyer that stated the person was licensed herbologist and iridologist don believe any state licenses herbologists iridologists robert greenstein what the fool cannot learn laughs thinking green srilanka island com that his laughter shows superiority instead latent idiocy corelli
sci.med	botulinum toxin type looking for statistics the prevalence disorders that are treatable with botulinum type these disorders include facial dyskinesia meige syndrome hemifacial spasm apraxia eyelid openeing aberrant regeneration the facial nerve facial paralysis strabismus spasmodic torticollis muscle spasm occupational dystonia writers cramp etc spasmodic dysphonia and temporal mandibular joint disease realize many the disorders listed such muscle spasm are vaguely defined and may encompass wide range particular disorders apologies the list was provided have some numbers but not reliable any ideas sources even bbetter any actual figures with source listed many thanks meg meg arnold business intelligence center sri international ravenswood avenue menlo park phone internet meg arnold sri com
sci.med	candida yeast bloom fact fiction previous article banschbach vms ocom okstate edu says least few enlightened physicians practicing the really too bad that most medical schools don cover nutrition because they did candida would not viewed non disease many the medical profession case western reserve med school teaches nutrition its own section well covering other sections they apply deficiency neuro cause neuropathy deficiency hematology cause megaloblastic anemia yet sill hold the viewpoint mainstream medicine candida can cause mucocutaneous candidiasis and already very sick patients with damaged immune systems like aids and cancer patients systemic candida infection think the yeast connection bunch hooey what does this have with how well nutrition taught anyway here brief primer yeast yeast infections they are commonly called are not truely caused yeasts the most common organism responsible for this type infection candida albicans monilia which actually yeast like fungus well maybe getting picky but always thought that yeast was one form that fungus could exist the other being the mold form many fungi can occur either yeasts molds depending environment candida exibits what known reverse dimorphism exists mold the tissues but exists yeast the environment should maybe call mold infection fungus infection maybe should say caused mold like fungus martin banschbach professor biochemistry and chairman department biochemistry and microbiology osu college osteopathic medicine west tulsa you the chairman biochem and micro and you didn know that yeast form fungus shudder maybe you did know and were oversimplifying
sci.med	schatzki ring pvc article uabdpo dpo uab edu spam dom uab edu uabdpo dpo uab edu gila stephen holland writes article apr betsy gsfc nasa gov ohandley betsy gsfc nasa gov wrote the second issue summarized has had extra heartbeats for the past years and once was symptomatic from them with some lightheadedness young ish thin and good health recent bloodtests were all normal and not smoke use drugs caffeine etc willing accept the extra beats normal but don want ignore them they might some kind warning symptom the number pvc seems increase throughout the day and with exercise something simple climbing some stairs also get after sitting lying down for while tend get couple extra beats could they possibly related the esophagous problems both seemed develop about the same time not expert heart problems but pvc are common and have been overtreated the past personal experience and have the same history build you related the heart that that pvc come and with some months causing anxiety taking more fluids seems help and they seem worse the summer remember that slow heart rate will allow more pvc apparent perhaps indication healthy cardiac system but ask expert about that last point especially too have had premature ventricular heartbeat starting these are not the way extra heartbeats this how they feel and this how described them initially the doctor but they actually premature heartbeats would sometimes experience lapse after one these that went for suffocatingly long period time making wonder heart were ever going beat again had them persistently for eighteen years then went low fat diet and they just stopped haven had single episode pvh for almost two years know correlation does not imply causation this just fwiw barbara
sci.med	natural alternatives estrogen need diet for diverticular disease and ideas for gastrointestinal distress
sci.med	sciatica ideas for the relief sciatica please respond mail
sci.med	pregnency without sex heard great civil war story guy the battlfield shot the groin the bullet continues path and lodges the abdomen female spectator and behold the legend goes both parents survived married and raised the child death taxes math jazz wean hall bathroom graffiti gabriel underwood gabe cmu edu
sci.med	placebo effects turpin utexas edu russell turpin those administering the treatment not know which subjects receive placebo the test treatment seems that many drugs have such severe side effects that might not possible keep the doctors from knowing who getting the true drug this especially true the drugs used for mental illnesses cat very smart has well trained origin one world los angeles
sci.med	should angry this doctor brandon caldonia nlm nih gov brandon brylawski writes mryan stsci edu writes justified being pissed off this doctor last saturday evening year old son cut his finger badly with knife took him local urgent and general care clinic the clinic was open till the receptionist went the back and told the other good stuff about the drs idiocy much hate here posting even better idiot story was hour labor had been pushing for hours and was exhausted and decided for csec the called the anesthisiologist and asked him help prep for surgery after watching through couple contractions the anes anus like refer him said well off duty now still staring between legs that the asked call whomever was who was duty and ask him her how long would take and was going take more than few minutes please stay even though was off duty the anes went out supposedly call the call anes couple minutes the nurse came running tell the that the anes had left without even trying get ahold the call was the only time during labor that swore the call anes took minutes get there come find out the anes had only just gone off duty about minutes before and technically was supposed stay the hospital until the next call got there good thing for all especially him that was not critical emergency but boy would love knock that fellow ouchie places just let him pain few little minutes have run into idiots mechanic idiots clerk idiots and etc idiots time but this fellow would like have words with deantha
sci.med	kidney stones the student has kidney infection she ought antibiotics kidney infections left untreated can cause permanent damage the kidneys was hospitalized with kidney infection while ago and was very sick article apr cts eiu edu cfaks cts eiu edu alice sanders writes also she told that thre are surgery patients ahead her and that they cannot surgery until august now april she supposed rest lot and drink fluids but she has classes she wonders why they have given her medicine she plans
sci.med	need info circumcision medical cons and pros aezpete deja aiss uiuc edu writes can imagine what like have penis much less foreskin guess american medicine did artistic job circumcising every male then the visual result would somewhat more natural appearance the penile cancer thing has been completely debunked she must going school south pacific island tell her check the journal urology for circumcision articles remember least old jewish man cut birth who developed penile cancer mean the cancer risk was that great the europe who have been circumcising like crazy too teaching boy how keep his cockhead clean the issue little proper hygiene goes long way americans are just too hung the penis consider cleaning that just way too much like mastubation you have surgical intervention that basically unnecessary peter schlumpf university illinois urbana champaign first off use some decent terms don mind this sci med not alt sex secondly how absolutely bogus assume that american are just too hung the penis blah blah think most american don care about anything comlicated that they just think looks nicer ask few them and see what response you get others still opt for circumcision due religious traditions and beliefs some think easier clean still others because daddy was dont naive think american are afraid sexuality son not circumcised and can vouch for the argument that more difficult keep clean than circumcised kids not much that the foreskin difficult pull back isn but because son doesn want wait long enough for thorough check for smega misplaced feces many times just gets once over dab worries that might get infection due his lack cooperation sure however that will able handle cleaning under the foreskin himself once old enough until there always the decision each diaper change this the time clean can wait till next time
sci.med	question phosphorylase kinase deficiency anyone has any information this deficiency would very greatly appreciate response here preferably email all know this point deficiency can cause myoglobin released and times stress and high ambient temperature could cause renal failure
sci.med	krillean photography article efi com alanm efi com alan morgan writes article oil vuse vanderbilt edu alex vuse vanderbilt edu alexander zijdenbos writes okay name one single effect that kirlian photography gives that can explained corona discharge dozens very funny postings sci image processing which this may not one ata
sci.med	chromium for weight loss there data show chromium effective promoting weight loss the few studies that have been done using chromium have been very flawed and inher ently biased the investigators were making money from marketing theoretically really doesnt make sense either the claim that chromium will increase muscle mass and decrease fat course chromium also used cure diabetes high blood pressure and increase muscle mass athletes just well anabolic steroids sounds like snake oil for the the other hand really cant hurt you anywhere but your wallet and place effects anything can pretty dramatic paul paul sovcik pharm illinois college pharmacy email uicvm uic edu
sci.med	earwax fauk amdahl uts amdahl com dated apr gmt lmtra uts amdahl com leon traister writes stephen mont missouri edu stephen montgomery smith writes what the healthiest way deal with earwax should one just leave your ear and not mess with should you clean out every often can cleaning out damage your eardrums are there any tubes your ear that might get blocked assuming that the wax causing hearing loss congestion popping the ears you can try some cautious tepid water irrigation with bulb syringe but awkward for oneself and may not work may even make things worse wife would disagree she does successfully every six months any case not attempt anything with tips agree with your wife while was student had doctors remove rather surprising amounts wax from ears flushing them out couple times usually because they were examining ears for some other reason and said something like gee you got lot wax there case removal these large wax buildups did noticeably improve hearing and since gotten the same habit your wife flushing them out with warm water from little rubber bulb every few months you can buy little bulbs together with ear drops for this express purpose from the drug store don notice that the drops accomplish much anything one question have doctor who flushed out ears once also advocated drop rubbing alcohol them afterwards flush out any remaining trapped water said told swimmers this after swimming too works but stings like the devil always been content let any water ears from swimming flushing them out figure out how get out itself shaking head few times won the trick any comments
sci.med	candida yeast bloom fact fiction article usenet ins cwru edu esd cwru edu elisabeth davidson writes previous article banschbach vms ocom okstate edu says least few enlightened physicians practicing the really too bad that most medical schools don cover nutrition because they did candida would not viewed non disease many the medical profession case western reserve med school teaches nutrition its own section well covering other sections they apply deficiency neuro cause neuropathy deficiency hematology cause megaloblastic anemia yet sill hold the viewpoint mainstream medicine candida can cause mucocutaneous candidiasis and already very sick patients with damaged immune systems like aids and cancer patients systemic candida infection think the yeast connection bunch hooey what does this have with how well nutrition taught anyway elisabeth let set the record straight for the nth time have not read the yeast connection anything that say not due brainwashing this hated book okay guess hate the book why hate elisabeth going quote from zinsser microbiology edition book that you should familiar with and not hate candida species colonize the mucosal surfaces all humans during birth shortly thereafter the risk endogenous infection clearly ever present indeed candidiasis occurs worldwide and the most common systemic mycosis neutrophils play the main role preventing systemic infection candidiasis you would have have low neutrophil count sick neutrophils see systemic infection poor diet and persistent parasitic infestation set many third world residents for candidiasis your assessment candidiasis the correct and not dispute what posted was discussion candida blooms without systemic infection these blooms would responsible for local sites irritation tract mouth vagina and sinus cavity knocking down the bacterial competition for candida was proposed possible trigger for candida blooms let quote from zinsser again however some factors such the use broad spectrum antibacterial antibiotic may predispose both mucosal and systemic infections was addressing mucosal infections like the term blooms better the nutrition course that teach covers this effect antibiotic treatment well the cure guess that your nutrition course does not too bad here brief primer yeast yeast infections they are commonly called are not truely caused yeasts the most common organism responsible for this type infection candida albicans monilia which actually yeast like fungus well maybe getting picky but always thought that yeast was one form that fungus could exist the other being the mold form many fungi can occur either yeasts molds depending environment candida exibits what known reverse dimorphism exists mold the tissues but exists yeast the environment should maybe call mold infection fungus infection maybe should say caused mold like fungus martin banschbach professor biochemistry and chairman department biochemistry and microbiology osu college osteopathic medicine west tulsa you the chairman biochem and micro and you didn know that yeast form fungus shudder maybe you did know and were oversimplifying elisabeth detect little steve dyer you you noticed faculty rank biochemist not microbiologist candida classifed fungus according zinsser but you point out displays dimorphism capable producing yeast cells pseudohyphae and true hyphae elisabeth you are probably microbiologist and that makes lot sense you biochemist lot greek called yeast like fungus ahead and crucify you know elisabeth still haven been able figure out why such small little organism like candida can bring out much hostility people sci med and must admitt that got sucked into the mud slinging too keep hoping that people will just take the time think about what said that will make sense not asking anyone here buy into the yeast connection book because don know what that book plain and simple and honest with you beginning wish that was never written marty
sci.med	need info circumci menon boulder colorado edu ravi deantha menon first off use some decent terms don mind this sci med not alt sex would you like rephrase that atp unix day mate throw another cat the barbie
sci.med	atrial natriuretic factor anp secreted the atria response increases fluid volume and acts facilitate sodium and water excretion from the kidneys can someone tell the molecular mechanism which this done please email your response thanks thon
sci.med	sumatripton spelling article cruzio santa cruz roxannen cruzio santa cruz wrote recently heard some testing new migraine drug called sumatripton have idea the actual spelling that supposedly utilizes chemical that trips neuro transmitters mother has regular migraines and nothing seems help does anyone know anything about this new drug testing phaze anywhere near approval does seem working girlfriend just started taking this drug for her migranes really helped her get through the rebound withdrawl when she got off analgesics she doesn have mail account but asked forward this glaxo the distributor imitrex the drug brand name works she can call her pharmacy for more info the miracle drug has been used for years europe and for some time canada trials the were completed and the drug hit the market the end march some pharmacies don stock yet presently needs injected subcutaneously although testing starting with nasal spray form mimics serotonin its molecular structure that fits onto pain receptors looks identical serotonin model saw opinions are mine others but definately not mda lauger ssdgwy mdc com mcdonnell douglas aerospace huntington beach california usa
sci.med	biological alchemy biological alchemy another form cold fusion alternative heavy element creation universe very simple experiment can demonstrate prove the fact biological transmutations reactions like etc described the book biological transmutations louis kervran edition best and chapter the book the secret life plants peter tompkins and christopher bird obtain good sample plant seeds all the same kind some kinds might work better that others divide the sample into two groups equal weight and number sprout one group distilled water filter paper for three four weeks separately incinerate both groups weigh the residue from each group the residue the sprouted group will usually weigh least several percent more than the other group analyze quantitatively the residue each group for mineral content some the mineral atoms the sprouted group have been transmuted into heavier mineral elements fusing with atoms oxygen hydrogen carbon nitrogen etc biological transmutations occur routinely even our own bodies ingesting source organic silicon silicon with carbon such horsetail extract radishes can speed healing broken bones via the reaction much faster than merely ingesting the calcium directly some mineral deposits the ground are formed micro organisms fusing together atoms silicon carbon nitrogen oxygen hydrogen etc the two reactions micro organisms cause stone sickness statues building bricks etc the reaction catalysed very hot iron creates carbon monoxide poison hazard for welder operators and people near woodstoves even properly sealed ones some bacteria can even neutralize radioactivity all these things and more happen spite the currently accepted laws physics including the law which says that atomic fusion requires extremely high temperatures and pressures biological transmutations and their applications chemistry physics biology ecology medicine nutrition agrigulture geology edition louis kervran active member new york academy science pages illustrated swan house publishing box binghamton the secret life plants peter tompkins and christopher bird pages harper row new york chapters and are about radionics entire book fascinating for more information answers your questions etc please consult cited sources the two books altered reproduction and dissemination this important information encouraged robert mcelwaine physics and astronomy
sci.med	sumatripton spelling just received fda approval few months ago have prescription which haven had use yet believe the company glaxol developing oral form this stage one must inject the drug into one muscle the doctor said that within minutes the migraine gone for good
sci.med	cure for dry skin cured mine with bag balm which bought the local farm supply store relatively cheap and works few days the product was developed treat sore udders
sci.med	vasectomy health effects women article apr nic csu net eskagerb nermal santarosa edu eric skagerberg writes does anyone know any studies done the long term health effects man vasectomy his female partner seen plenty study results about vasectomy effects men health but what about women for example might the wife vasectomized man become more risk for say cervical cancer adverse effects from sperm antibodies changes the vagina yeast bacterial infections outside study results how about informed speculation heard studies but speculation why earth would there any effect women health that about the most absurd idea heard since ted kaldis claim that more than people would march washington one point greatly reduced chance pregnancy but that josh
sci.med	what bone scan mother has been advised have bone scan performed what this procedure for and painful she been having leg and back pain which her said was sciatica her oncologist listened her symptoms and said that didn sound like sciatica and she should get bone scan cindy
sci.med	candida yeast bloom fact fiction article banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes not asking anyone here buy into the yeast connection book because don know what that book plain and simple and honest with you beginning wish that was never written agree with this consensus that should not have been written the way was doctor who claims have introduced crook the possibility candida overbloom causing diffuse symptoms way back have reason doubt him this does not like the book because makes too many unfounded claims and horribly written from scientific viewpoint the other hand doctor has always kept open mind the subject and does believe aspects the yeast connection but believe there some truth the book hopefully the right clinical studies can done separate the fact from the fiction the meantime still encourage people who have incurable chronic sinus problems especially they overused antibiotics find doctor administer systemic type anti fungal such itraconazole along with liver panels before during and after treatment just play safe empirical approach for sure but when all else fails and your ent says sorry you just have live with time step out and try empirical approach backed with significant anecdotal evidence ivker supported plausible theories outlined marty this stage you have little lose particularly you use itraconazole and have the proper monitoring the health risk has been shown through extensive clinical studies both europe and the very minimal with relatively healthy non aids patients glad did this since saw remarkable results after only one week sporanox itraconazole course your mileage may vary lot everyone different may not work for you talk your doctor jon noring charter member infj club you dying know what infj means brave mail send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international fred gourmet chocolate carlton place phone chips world best livermore mail who are you read alt psychology personality that where the action
sci.med	what bone scan article cindy berkp uadv uci edu cindy berkp uadv uci edu cindy windham writes mother has been advised have bone scan performed what this procedure for and painful she been having leg and back pain which her said was sciatica her oncologist listened her symptoms and said that didn sound like sciatica and she should get bone scan assume correctly from the above aricle that your mother has historyy cancer was just wondeing since you mentioned thhat she has oncologist bone scan nuclear scan thperson receivving the scan gven dose radioactive tracer and imaging device used track the distribution the tracer wwithin the body the tracer usually given intravenously this means that the physician his assistant will insert needle into vein and inject medicine into the vein after few minutes has passed for the tracer circulate through the body the person scanned with imaging device detect high concentrations the tracer the radiologist doctor looking for areas that take more the radioactive tracer less far pain the only pain comes from the needle stick that required start the line what the doctor probably looking for are changes the bones that may have resulted from cancer this also why was wondering your mother has had cancer since cancer can spread from one site and wind the skeletal system hope have answered some your questions feel free mail you have more questions related the bone scan anything else related your mother care newly graduated nurse and enjoy sharing information with other people help them understand things that they did not know about before thoughts are with you both elisa hanson picl fsphy physics fsu edu the chief function the body carry the head around albert einstein
sci.med	antihistamine for sleep aid for very long time had problem with feeling really awful when try get the morning sleep latency night also pretty long ranging from min hour get about hours bedtime maybe actual sleep night and more the weekends will spend two three hours laying bed after this can because feel tired when wake even more tired than was when went bed which usually too tired work anyway recently had really bad flu called friend get some cough syrup with both expectorant and nasal decongestant but got vicks formula which has everything but expectorant used that anyway and the three nights used fell asleep rapidly and felt that got really good quality sleep that actually felt refreshed the next morning now trying look into both the literature and experimentally the use antihistamines sleep aids since presuming that was the antihistamine that caused the effect the antihistamine vicks formula chloriphenamine maleate bought some generic tablets that and tried one last night and didn notice any improvement might try one with little alcohol about beer see synergism effect also library research seems show that benadryl the antihistamine with the strongest sedative effect what availible otc might also buy generic form that and try that the pdr seems suggest that good dosage level try for other medical information have allergies but rarely have allergic reaction living new mexico also have chronically dry eyes which get horrible try use most underarm deoderants did guess that problem might caused hypoglycemia made some changes diet consistent with that and didn help went back normal diet pretty diverse also taking vitamin supplements anyway looking for advice for the use antihistamines sleep aids and there are any dangers such use seems safe since they are used chronically for allergies millions don want try bzs because addiction seems serious threat and from what hear sleep quality not good whereas antihistamine sleep quality seems better for have tried some dietary tryptophan loading stuff and that also seems lower sleep quality seem wake around and some kind mental haze until also would interested any other advice for helping problem although already tried many the non pharmacological solutions
sci.med	bates eye exercises have mailed this the correct newsgroup are there other newsgroup which cover the following topic has anyone with myopia short sightedness ever done the bates eye exercises could you please mail the following information age and state sight before exercises were commenced type frequency and length time spent exercises performed improvements noticed immediately after performing exercises length period before any improved sight deteriorates thanks advance for any replies summarise and post results there enough interest jonathan goldstein jonathan goldstein goldstej nms otc com
sci.med	pregnency without sex article blue cis pitt edu kxgst pitt edu kenneth gilbert writes article stephen mont stephen mont missouri edu stephen montgomery smith writes when was school boy biology teacher told incident which couple were very passionate without actually having sexual intercourse somehow the girl became pregnent sperm cells made their way her through the clothes via persperation was biology teacher misinforming such incidents actually occur sounds like someone was pulling your leg there only one way for pregnancy occur intercourse these days however there also artificial insemination and implantation techniques but speaking natural acts here possible for pregnancy occur semen deposited just outside the vagina coitus interruptus but that about far you can get through clothes way better talk your biology teacher kenneth gilbert university pittsburgh well now doc sure would not want bet life those little critters not being able get thru one layer sweat soaked cotton their way their programmed task infrequent yes unlikely yes but impossible learned long time ago never say never medicine len howard facog
sci.med	dental fillings question have been hearing bad thing about amalgam dental fillings some say the lead mercury leeches into your system and this bad and have recently heard that there some suspicion that the mercury breeding ground for bacteria that will resistant antibiotics dentist wants use amalgam filling for place where have two cavaties one tooth and wants use one filling cover both says that composite filling don hold well when they are large would like know there are any other choices besides amalgam and composite and should really even worried about amalgam heard that some scandanavian country does not even use them any more this true any information you can give will greatly appreciated thanks dave childs
sci.med	antihistamine for sleep aid interested this from the other angle what antihistamine can take bedtime for relief allergies with the assurance that its sedative effect will have completely worn off the next morning but preferably with the anti allergy effect lasting longer thinking mainly otc products which has the least duration sedative action benadryl chlor trimeton what note that asking about duration not intensity michael covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt uga edu the university georgia phone athens georgia amateur radio tmi
sci.med	isolation amplifiers for eeg ecg cheap have several isolation amplifier boards that are the ideal interface for eeg and ecg isolation essential for safety when connecting line powered equipment electrodes the body these boards incorporate the burr brown isolation module that currently sells for plus other amps produce overall voltage gain they are like new and guaranteed good postpaid schematic included please email for more data ken carver
sci.med	help purification neutrophils from mice hello need technique for separation polymorphonuclear neutrophils pmn from the peripheral blood mice because the low pmn lymphocyte ratio approx not just easy the corresponding technique used with human blood yours per arne melander mail address per arne melander histocel umu
sci.med	sumatripton spelling reply roxannen cruzio santa cruz recently heard some testing new migraine drug called sumatripton have idea the actual spelling that supposedly utilizes chemical that trips neuro transmitters mother has regular migraines and nothing seems help does anyone know anything about this new drug testing phaze anywhere near approval does seem working just got back from the american academy neurology annual meeting where the consensus was that sumatriptan imitrex has advantages over dhe nasal spray which much less expensive has fewer side effects effective and works more quickly minutes besides who wants give themselves shot sumatriptan when nasal spray works dhe nasal spray not widely available yet has mail ordered from one few pharmacies the country but most neurologists now know about and know how order david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire this patently absurd but whoever wishes become philosopher must learn not frightened absurdities bertrand russell
sci.med	thermogenics article cup portal com mmm cup portal com mark robert thorson writes first off not mistaken only hibernating animals have brown fat not humans human infants have bown fat deposits while adult humans are believed not have brown fat also while brown fat may play important role rousing hibernators definitely not limited hibernating animals common energy source for nonshivering thermogenesis edwin barkdoll barkdoll lepomis psych upenn edu world std com
sci.med	cure for dry skin article rmn morrow stanford edu mou nova stanford edu alex mou writes all skin very dry general but the most serious part located from knees down the skin there looks like segmented the segmentation actually happens beneath the skin would like know there any cure for this the supermarkets pharmacies there are quite lot stuffs for dry skins but what chose thanks advance for all advices and hints reply email preferred alex matter fact just saw dermatologist the other day and while was there asked him about dry skin been spending small fortune various creams lotions and other dry skin treatments said all needed was large jar vaseline soak lukewarm tub water for minutes only minutes then massage the vaseline trap the moisture that will help haven tried yet but you can bet will the hard part will finding the time rub the vaseline properly not done right you remain greasy and stick your clothes try got cheaper then spending for natural lotion jane
sci.med	earwax article stephen mont stephen mont missouri edu stephen montgomery smith writes what the healthiest way deal with earwax should one just leave your ear and not mess with should you clean out every often can cleaning out damage your eardrums are there any tubes your ear that might get blocked stephen the best thing leave will work its own way out the surface anything you stick there try and clean just going push the wax against your eardrum and pack there solid thus impairing your hearing sean
sci.med	biological alchemy mcelwre cnsvax uwec edu writes biological alchemy another form cold fusion gee forgotten about this nut altered reproduction and dissemination this important information encouraged robert mcelwaine physics and astronomy and know can prove what stands for this case
sci.med	earwax bobm ingres com bob mcqueer writes one question have doctor who flushed out ears once also advocated drop rubbing alcohol them afterwards flush out any remaining trapped water said told swimmers this after swimming too works but stings like the devil always been content let any water ears from swimming flushing them out figure out how get out itself shaking head few times won the trick any comments when have trouble usually because water trapped some remaining wax don see why you can just let evaporate should this eventually nets levin bbn com earn more sessions sleeving pots mnf roxanne kowalski
sci.med	krillean photography article apr magnus acs ohio state edu wvhorn magnus acs ohio state edu william vanhorne writes newsgroups sci energy sci image processing sci anthropology alt sci physics new theories sci skeptic sci med alt alien visitors path unidus uni duesseldorf rrz uni koeln gmd newsserver jvnc net howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu wvhorn from wvhorn magnus acs ohio state edu william vanhorne subject krillean photography message apr magnus acs ohio state edu sender news magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization the ohio state university references apr ultb isc rit edu mvg boi usenet ucs indiana edu oil vuse vanderbilt edu date tue apr gmt lines xref unidus uni duesseldorf sci energy sci image processing sci anthropology alt sci physics new theories sci skeptic sci med alt alien visitors article oil vuse vanderbilt edu alex vuse vanderbilt edu alexander zijdenbos writes reading through the posts about kirlian whatever spelling photography couldn help but being slightly disgusted the narrow minded know all don believe what can see measure attitude many people out there neither real believer nor disbeliever when comes called paranormal stuff but far concerned just likely the existence for instance god which seems quite accepted our societies without any scientific basis convinced that serious mistake close your mind something anything simply because doesn fit your current frame reference history shows that many great people great scientists were people who kept open mind and were ridiculed sceptics especially the usa should grateful after all columbus did not drop off the edge the earth one thing open minded about phenomona that have not demonstrated false and quite another believe something like krilian photography where all the claimed effects have demonstrated artifacts there longer any reason adopt wait and see attitude about krilian photography has been experimentally shown nothing but simple coronal discharge the auras shown missing leaf parts came from moisture left the original whole leaf for example that what science son bill vanhorne
sci.med	cold sore location had cold sores the past but they have always been the corner mouth recently had what appears cold sore but lower lip the middle above the chin can cold sores appear anywhere around the mouth body there medical term for cold sore ralph yozzo yozzo watson ibm com from the beautiful and historic new york state mid hudson valley
sci.med	thyroidal deficiency wife has aquired some thyroidal deficiency over the past year that gives symptoms such needing much sleep coldness and proneness gaining weight she has been doctor and taken the ordinary tests and her values were regarded low the doctor and wife are not very interested starting medication this deactivates the gland giving life long dependency the drug hormone the last couple monthes she has been seeing hoemoepath and been given some drops activate either her thyroidal gland and the message center the brain sorry about the approximate language but haven got many clues what the english terms are but the brain area called the hypofyse norwegian questions are has anyone had heard success using this approach her values have been slowly but steadily sinking any comment the probability improvement although the doctor has told her eat normally wife has dieted vigorously keep her weight she feels that part keeping edge over the illness condition may this affect the treatment development can get the exact figures for her tests for anyone interested and will greatly value any information opinion experience this topic don intend this post either flaming the established medical profession praise for alternatives just relaying events they have happened sincerely erik wolff
sci.med	investigating phenylanine resinfo research and information currently seeking contact the united kingdom with researchers phenylanine this amino acid uninspiring resinfo not regular subscriber sci med due the excessive load data and regrettably our limited ability monitor would therefore appreciated replies could sent direct resinfo resinfo demon using the ref
sci.med	insensitive technicians friend was recently admitted north carolina memorial hospital because suspected meningitis serious business they wanted lumbar puncture for which scan prerequisite arrived her hospital room about hour after she had returned from the she was tears evidently the technicians the lab had been very unpleasant her begin with they put her the apparatus that moves you into the machine itself and just pushed button slide her straight into the machine without any explanation imagine this you worried you may have deadly disease and next thing you know you being put into this big scary machine without word explanation about what going happen you believe this inexcusable she waved her hand say what are you doing and they responded with annoyance and anger next they inserted tried insert catheter apparently she has lot trouble with these and complained the pain the technician just stopped and fixed her with glare without any words explanation there anything can about these pigs realize that these technicians this sort job day and day out and that some patients can very irritating and uncooperative but this simply excuse their purpose for existing help sick people and there excuse for this sort behavior fortunately friend fine but imagine large proportion the people who get scans are not fine all they have cancer and that sort thing they don need this kind shit also since named the hospital involved should also point out that neither she nor have any complaints about the competence compassion any the other personnel ncmh thanks for listening john eyles jge unc edu
sci.med	krillean photography thomas trusk ttrusk its mcw edu wrote article efi com alanm efi com alan morgan writes article oil vuse vanderbilt edu alex vuse vanderbilt edu alexander zijdenbos writes neither real believer nor disbeliever when comes called paranormal stuff but far concerned just likely the existence for instance god which seems quite accepted our societies without any scientific basis oooooh bad example atheist this not flame abuse nor want start another thread this after all supposed about image processing but say you atheist suggest you have proof there god that means that there cannot any atheists since there way that you can prove that there god atheists are people who believe that there god most not only believe but also are damn sure that there isn god like the cursor aka nick humphries nmh csc liv your service what the use computers they never play why pay money see chess draw art make music jean genet bad films stay home intelligence isn make mistakes but how and see bad for make them look good bertolt brecht free sam goldwyn
sci.med	robert biological alchemy robert glad that you posted your biological alchemy discussion been compared the famous robert mcelwaine some readers sci med didn know how respond since had not seen one your posts just like haven read the yeast connection let just start stating that the authors the cold fusion papers recent years are now scientific exile believe that one has actually left the country scientific fraud rare still not sure that review the research notes the cold fusion scientists actually proved fraud just very shoddy experimentation your sources not seem research articles they are more like lay texts designed pique human interest subject area just like the food combining and life extension texts robert try keep open mind but some things just can buy one taking sod orally prevent oxidative damage the body your experiment conducted readers this news group would prove that you are right more ash after seed sprouting than before unless you use muffle furnance and obtain very high temperature above degrees believe you will get organic residue the ash even the residue commercial incinerators contains organic residue remember doing this kind experiment organic chemistry couurse college but couldn find temperature for mineral ash formation really guessing degrees may actually much higher the point that one their home could ever get high enough temperature produce only mineral ash they also could not measure the minerals they could only weigh the ash and find out that you appear correct chemical reactions abound our body our atmosphere our water and our soil are these fusion reactions yes many them involve fusing oxygen nitrogen and sulfur both organics and inorganics really have the transformation silicone calcium carbon fused with silicon not book robert silicon the most abundant mineral our planet seen speculation that man could have evolved silicon based rather than carbon based life form like reading science fiction many people but know enough about biochemistry and nutrition able most cases separate the fiction from the fact silicon may one the trace elements that turns out essential humans have several grams the stuff our body what doing there only the lord knows right now but will tell you what know about silicon and why you state helps bone healing and not because silicon transformed into calcium almost all the silicon the human body found the connective tissue collagen and elastin there have been studies published which show that the very high silicon content elastin may important protective factor against atherosclerosis the higher the silicon content elastin the more resistant the elastin age related loss elasticity which may play role the increase blood pressure that often seen part the ageing process humans for bone fracture healing the first step collagen matrix into which calcium and phosphate are pumped osteoblasts high level silicon the diet seems speed this matrix formation this first step the bone healing process seems the hardest for some people get going electriacl currents have been used attempt get the matrix forming cells oriented the right direction that the matrix can formed the gap gaps between the ends the broken bone vitamin deficiency slowing collagen formation well causing the prodcution defective collagen does slow down both bone and wound healing zinc also another big player bone and wound healing and silicon undetermined role that most likely involes matrix formation and not transformation silicon calcium for you take this bone healing observation and use proof that silicon transformed into calcium interesting little trick but robert have the same problem myself when read the lay press and yes even some scientific papers the explanation reasonable without very good science knowledge base you and most readers this news group are flying blind you have take faith because you don know any better the explanation seems make sense based knowledge base inclined consider this usually means trying find other sources that come the same conclusion the idea like candida bloom seems make sense tend pursue long any advice that going give isn going really mess somebody this makes kindred souls robert then guess have live with that label for the physicians who have decided read response robert interesting post hope that you saw the segment the pediatric neurosurgeon last night can remember the network his name like many nights was computer and wife was watching our den where have computer setup this neurosurgeon takes kids with brain tumors that everyone else has given and uses unconventional treatments his own words says that has success rate the one case that heard him discussing would normally use radiation conventional treatment was going and cut you guys complain about the cost the anti fungals what you think the cost difference between radiation treatment and surgery guys going ask you guys one more time why blast physician who takes the chronic sinus sufferer like jon and the chronic sufferer like elaine and tries help them using unconventional treatments treatments which not result death like those that the neurosurgeon uses because candida blooms are not life threatening while brain tumors are how about quality life guys may the candida demon never cross your sinus cavity gut does you may feel differently about the issue marty
sci.med	antihistamine for sleep aid article apr nmt edu houle nmt edu paul houle writes anyway looking for advice for the use antihistamines sleep aids and there are any dangers such use seems safe since they are used chronically for allergies millions don want try bzs because addiction seems serious threat and from what hear sleep quality not good whereas antihistamine sleep quality seems better for have tried some dietary tryptophan loading stuff and that also seems lower sleep quality seem wake around and some kind mental haze until also would interested any other advice for helping problem although already tried many the non pharmacological solutions antihistamines have been the active ingredient otc sleep aids for decades any drugstore and look the packages such sleep aids sominex nytol etc the active ingredient diphenhydramine the same antihistamine that benadryl steven litvintchouk mitre corporation burlington road bedford fone arpa sdl mitre org uucp linus sdl
sci.med	annual inguinal hernia repair article jpc avdms msfc nasa gov jpc avdms msfc nasa gov porter clark wrote synopsis young man with inguianl hernia one side repaired now has new hernia other side what gives asks and continues course wife thinks from sitting for long periods time the computer reading news there the possibility that there some degree constipation causing chronic straining which has caused the bowel movements the classic problems that are supposed looked for someone with hernia are constipation chronic cough colon cancer and you not too young for that and sitting for long periods time the computer reading news good luck with your surgery steve holland well that post was not that accurate people with early life hernias are felt have congenital sack that promotes the formation hernias the hernias later life may more associated with chronic straining however the risk damage the intestine without operation high enough that ought repaired the risk cancer probably higher than the general population but since you are near would sensible have some sort cancer screening such flexible sigmoidoscopy sorry for the misleading info steve holland
sci.med	allergic reactions against laser printers article apr informatik muenchen rdd uts ipp garching mpg reinhard drube writes does anyone know about allergic reactions caused the developer toner laser printers what chemical stuff involved mainly carbon dust with iron plastic binder that melted the paper same stuff dry paper photocopiers allergies haven heard any but anything possible with allergies kay klier biology dept uni
sci.med	physical therapy students interested finding other physical therapy students the net you are one you know anyone could you get into contact with via email address gecko camelot bradley edu thankyou anastasia
sci.med	thyroidal deficiency article apr ewolff erik the viking writes wife has aquired some thyroidal deficiency over the past year that gives symptoms such needing much sleep coldness and proneness gaining weight she has been doctor and taken the ordinary tests and her values were regarded low the doctor and wife are not very interested starting medication this deactivates the gland giving life long dependency the drug hormone questions are has anyone had heard success using this approach her values have been slowly but steadily sinking any comment the probability improvement although the doctor has told her eat normally wife has dieted vigorously keep her weight she feels that part keeping edge over the illness condition may this affect the treatment development there are several different types thyroid diseases which would cause hypothyroid condition reduction the output the thyroid mainly thyroxin except for ones caused infections the treatment generally thyroxin pills hypothyroid conditions caused infections usually disappear when the infection does this doesn sound like the case with your wife thyroxin orally does shut down the thyroid through feedback loop involving the pituitary believe the pituitary thinks that the correct amount thyroxin being produced doesn have tell the thyroid produce more this process reversable have hashimoto thyroiditis autoimmune condition and was thyroxin for approx when endocrinologist suggested not take the pills for wks when was retested for thyroxin levels they were normal still get tested every because the condition might reappear the pills are safe and have very few side affects those mostly beginning treatment having baby might problem and would least require closer monitoring hormone levels thyroxin controls energy production which explains sleepiness coldness and weight gain there also water retention possibly around heart changes vision and coarser hair and skin among other things not doctor sure mistated something but the important thing that thyroid problems are usually easily corrected and they aren corrected can cause problems the rest the body get second opinion from good endocrinologist and have him her explain things detail you and your wife eileen bauer
sci.med	vitamin and infection sent gordon posts protein vitamin and vitamin prior posting internet professional courtesy somehow managed delete vitamin post from text file gordon had promised send back but pretty mad right now just retype since digging through all references very time consuming took all day for that pms post not going cite any references gordon has them going include some the material from weinsier and morgan new nutrition textbook which was not original material point out that what going say has some support the medical community diet has been know affect the immune system man for very very long time protein has always had the biggest role infection and already covered the role protein protecting you against infection now going hit what consider the most important nutrient the far infection concerned vitamin when vitamin was originally discovered was commonly referred the anti infection vitamin many people linus pauling being one have decided take this title away from vitamin and give vitamin which already covered big mistake opinion vitamin also getting reputation anti cancer vitamin with good reason the nci currently has numerous clinical trials progress see vitamin can not only prevent cancer but cure well role both cancer and infection almost identical but not quite vitamin comes two completely different forms retinol and beta carotene retinol the animal form and toxic beta carotene the plant form and completely nontoxic both retinol and beta carotene display good absorption the human gut bile present the liver stores all your retinol and doles out for other tissues use synthesizing retinol binding protein rbp normal human adult liver should have retinol stored are born with our liver autopsy has shown that about americans die with the same less amount vitamin they were born with you don believe that nutritional reserves like that retinol the liver are important then this low vitamin reserve not going affect you but you believe like that the nutrient reserves are important then there problem with vitamin the the rda for vitamin adult male vitamin for adult feamles its vitamin diet surveys show that most americans are getting this amount vitamin either retinol beta carotene from their diet but the nrc national research council was going release new rda table that had the rda for both vitamin and vitamin raised per day and per day for adult males that report and recommendations was killed why concern over the increasing supplementation was the main reason rdas are set prevent clinical disease not keep nutrient reserves full many scientist the feel that the time has come move away from the prevention clinical pathology concept and move towards the promotion optimum health concept especially since have some very good data now that show that nutrient reserves are extremely important during periods stress the nutritonal concervatives won that battle and new group scientist were collected come out with the rda list which lowered the rda for several nutrients and moved the dietary guidelines back where they were when first started the get enough prevent clinical pathology but not enough fill the reserves know from autopsy that only about americans have liver with normal vitamin reserve preach nutrient reserves students and tell them measure them their patients but for vitamin only liver biopsy autopsy data will tell you how much somebody has stored can tell very easily someone has overfilled his her liver with vitamin measuring the serium retinol level levels above are highly suggestive that you have filled your liver with vitamin and time stop taking retinol the normal range serum retinol will hypervitaminosis diagnosed with serum retinol level higher interpretation diagnostic test wallach little brown series book this level vitamin blood means that medical attention necessary due vitamin toxicity weinsier and morgan take much more conservative approach vitamin toxicity than does wallach you will see later this post between and you should have plenty warning that time eliminate the retinol from your diet headache redness the skin hair loss joint pain tell all students that will use vitamin their practice that they had better monitor the serum retinol level and stop when there are clear signs that the liver full you will never really know the patient needs the vitamin because you can not measure the pool liver but you will always know when time stop just like those vitamin for pms studies beta carotene can taken fill your liver with retinol and you will never have worry about toxicity because the conversion beta carotene retinol that occurs both your gut and your liver will slow down stops the liver and slows down the gut when your liver full retinol but taking beta carotene the source retinol takes very long time fill the liver seen estimates years you are the that only has much you were born with your liver one other problem with beta carotene you have zinc deficit you will not convert much beta carotene retinol the gut the liver because the enxzyme that does this conversion requires zinc addition the release retinol from the liver zinc dependent process zinc deficit will cause vitamin deficit even your liver has plenty vitamin now what does vitamin cancer and infection protection the body uses vitamin retinol for many different things vision the first nailed down and where you see overt clinical pathology uses the aldehyde retinal and alcohol retinol form vitamin reproduction uses the retinol form and some retinal infection and cancer protection uses retinoic acid how you convert retinol which your white blood cells and the mucosal cells get from blood retinoic acid you use enzymes one which requires vitamin this why pauling has tried pull the title anti infection vitamin away from vitamin vitamin does play role infection interferon production for example but biggest role the conversion retinol retinoic acid you increase your intake vitamin you will increase your formation retinoic acid but retinoic acid can not converted back retinol retinal can and once formed used and then lost the body this why the nrc group wanted increase both vitamin and vitamin rda most people taking large amounts vitamin really think that they are helping themselves they don have much vitamin their liver and they are not also increasing their intake vitamin they actually themselves more harm than good retinoic acid functions white blood cells promote antibody formation the mucus membrane the main factor promoting good mucus production and good epithelial cell barrier prevent infectious agents from entering the blood system the mucus membrane referred the first line defense against infection for cancer retinoic acid has been shown act cell brake counteracts the effect cell promoters which stimulate cells divide cancer has two distinct steps dna alteration and cell promotion for cells that normally divide all the time promoters are not that important but for lung and breast tissue which does not normally divide promoters are real important the malignant process this the major reason why the nci has many different clinical trials progress using retinol and beta carotene chronic infection irritation the mucus membranes signal that vitamin may not adequate tell students that any patient who walks into their office with complaint chronic infection has worked for vitamin along with the other factors that medicine already has list causes for chronic infection drive this home course the osteopathic college tulsa when teach the allopathic medical school tulsa branch campus and when give cme lectures dark adaptation the best clinical test for vitamin status since night vision impacted when liver reverves drop retinol the serum level retinol can also used but does not drop until liver reserves drop below asking patient they have trouble seeing night good initial screen cataracts are ruled out one study done spanish americans where serum retinol levels were measured the sample population had serum retinol level below more studies are done serum retinol levels population groups the that have had history high infection rates will probably see much stonger correlation between infection incidence rates and low serum retinol levels what weinsier and morgan have say about vitamin here are excerpts from their book vitamin functions vision the forrm retinol necessay for growth and differentation epithelial tissue and required for reproduction embryonic development and bone growth protein calorie malnutrition and zinc deficiency may impair the absorption transport and metabolism vitamin retinaldehyde converted retinoic acid which has biological activity growth and cell diferentiation but not reproduction vision the most common procedure evaluate vitamin status measure the retinol level plasma serum the normal range for vitamin content for child lower values are indicators deficiency depleted body stores serum levels greater than are indicative toxic levels vitamin dark adaptation tests and electroretinogram measurements are also useful but difficult perform young children rapidly proliferating tissues are sensitive vitamin deficiency and may revert undifferentiated state the bronchorespiratory tract skin genitourinary system gastrointestinal tract and sweat glands are adversely affected daily intake more than about retinol not advised and chronic use amounts over can result dry and itching skin desquamation erythematous dermatitis hair loss joint pain chapped lips hyperostois bony depositis headaches anorexia edema and fatigue they recommend retinol via injection children for vitamin deficiency but not discuss treatment for adults their toxic serum retinol level very conservative recommend that students try adults that are having problems with chronic infection they have rule out zinc deficit first getting rbc zinc run their clinical lab can run tell them what weinsier and morgan suggest give them the zinc along with the vitamin per day toxicity should not problem and you will not have worry about pulling the patient into the office regular basis run serum retinol both elaine and jon found doctors who used much higher dose vitamin recall that the pms papers were using vitamin don suggest that students use these high doses you wanted fill the liver fast part clinical trial and were monitoring the serum retinol level then you would okay but knowledge the vitamin literature suggests that for patients with demonstrated vitamin deficit dark adapatation test serum retinol will provide good and steady improvement long zinc and vitamin status are good without having worry about toxicity they want get more agressive fine they follow advise check the serum retinol but vitamin retinol should never given high dose women who could become pregnant since vitamin shows teratogenicity towards the human fetus the dose needed show this effect the developing fetus retinol per day beta carotene will never have this effect the human fetus could just taking beta carotene instead retinol supplements help yes but the effect will take long time develop advise use retinol fill the liver and then switch beta carotene keep full vitamin probably one nutrient that better off left prescription doctors but when have the this newsgroup jumping all over and other doctors that propose the use vitamin supplements for treating patients with chronic sinus and distress think that the most prudent option keep vitamin the otc market but require manufactors provide package inserts educate the general public about the dangers vitamin supplementation marty
sci.med	feverfew for migraines brenda bowden brenda bookhouse eng sun com wrote does anyone know about these studies have experience with feverfew keep accurate log migraine attack frequency feverfew didn seem anything for however eliminating caffeine seems pre vent the onset migraine case other words caffeine migraines don montgomery donrm com
sci.med	need values for aorta need following data for human aorta tear and shear stress for aorta plot the aortic cross sectional area stroke volume the aortic root approximate distribution blood through the major arterial branches the aorta flow velocity blood aorta have various values for flow velocity you have any data remember give the references too include our report stud jakob hilmer fax hus roskilde university denmark postbox roskilde
sci.med	seeking info retinal detachment quite near sighted recently received laser treatment for both eyes seal holes the retinas help prevent retinal detachment left eye small detachment had begun already and apparently the laser was used weld this back place well right eye seems fine left eye was seeing occasional flashes bright light prior the treatment since the treatment two weeks these flashes are now occuring more often several each hour the opthamologist explained the flashes are caused because the vitreous body has attached the retina and pulling says this not treatable and hopes may away its own accord tugs enough may well face retinal detachment seeking via sci med additional info retinal detachments the did not wish spend much time with explanations appreciate any further details anyone can provide most interest retina does detach what should immediate course action conventional surgery need repair the detachment what the procedure like and what kind vision can expect afterwards the symptoms fairly frequent flashes imply that detachment maybe near hand this not necessarily cause for alarm many thanks bill bill wilder computer systems manager kentville research station agriculture canada kentville nova scotia
sci.med	ethics regarding placebo homeopathic medicines would like know their any medical consensus consensus within this group regarding the ethics the following prescription placebo medications when the patient did not specifically request any sort treatment selling placebo medication for profit prescribing homeopathic remedies without advising patient their controversial nature representing homeopathic remedies over the counter medications thanks nick ingegneri
sci.med	antihistamine for sleep aid article apr nmt edu houle nmt edu paul houle writes anyway looking for advice for the use antihistamines sleep aids and there are any dangers such use seems safe since they are used chronically for allergies millions don want try bzs because addiction seems serious threat and from what hear sleep quality not good whereas antihistamine sleep quality seems better for have tried some dietary tryptophan loading stuff and that also seems lower sleep quality seem wake around and some kind mental haze until also would interested any other advice for helping problem although already tried many the non pharmacological solutions well think you might want visit doctor who familiar with sleep disturbances because antihistamines only help induce sleep when they used intermittently they lose their sedative effect they used nightly basis their anticholinergic effects drying secretions relaxing effects smooth muscle can problematic some people such those with glaucoma prostate enlargement antihistamines like diphenhydramine benadryl doxylamine unisom are potent sedatives which are useful occasionally chlorpheniramine chlor trimeton said less sedative but seems work well some people both chlorpheniramine and doxylamine have long half lives compared diphenhydramine and may produce residual hangover drugged feeling the next morning steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima harvard rayssd linus spdcc dyer
sci.med	thyroidal deficiency article apr ewolff erik the viking writes she has been doctor and taken the ordinary tests and her values were regarded low the doctor and wife are not very interested starting medication this deactivates the gland giving life long dependency the drug hormone this ridiculous and your doctor sounds like nut what reported here what the doctor actually said your wife pancreas stops producing insulin and therefore becomes diabetic she need insulin replacement that doesn mean she dependent insulin anymore than she was beforehand her body doesn make enough she have get elsewhere oral thyroid replacement hormone therapy the cornerstone treatment for hypothyroidism and really the only effective therapy available anyway plus cheap taking thyroid hormone when isn needed does cause your thyroid gland reduce its own production the hormone but that feature not bug and irrelevant any case the face hypothyroidism because her problem that her gland isn producing enough there isn clinical phenomenon thyroid insufficiency caused sudden discontinuation exogenous thyroid hormone analogous adrenal insufficiency caused the sudden cessation prolonged administration corticosteroids there should worry about inappropriately suppressing the thyroid gland the last couple monthes she has been seeing hoemoepath and been given some drops activate either her thyroidal gland and the message center the brain sorry about the approximate language but haven got many clues what the english terms are but the brain area called the hypofyse norwegian homeopathy nonsense tell her stop wasting her money health and time and get her legitimate doctor who will position make proper diagnosis and recommend the right therapy steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima harvard rayssd linus spdcc dyer
sci.med	earwax article definnac news bbn com levin bbn com joel levin writes bobm ingres com bob mcqueer writes one question have doctor who flushed out ears once also advocated drop rubbing alcohol them afterwards flush out any remaining trapped water said told swimmers this after swimming too works but stings like the devil always been content let any water ears from swimming flushing them out figure out how get out itself shaking head few times won the trick any comments perhaps diluting the rubbing alcohol some water until you feels comfortable will the trick
sci.med	antihistamine for sleep aid but after you have taken antihistamines for few nights doesn start have paradoxical effect used take one every night for allergies and couldn figure out why developed bad insomnia finally figured out was the antihistamines would fall asleep for few minutes but would awaken the drop pin little later and could not get back sleep don have that problem since stopped the antihistamines bedtime alice
sci.med	lithium questions doctor wants year old sci med folks would like know anything you folks can tell regarding lithium have year old son that lives with wife she has been having difficulty with his behavior and has had him ritalin tofranil and now wants try lithuim the local doctors suggestion would like know whatever important that should know worry about this sort thing and would like pros cons regarding lithium therapy have booklet from the lithium information center based the university wisconsin but feel that pro lithium and would interested comments from the not necessarily pro side the fence concerned father and just wish well informed thanks for any information you can provide please email directly george perkins systems engineer sun microsystems computer corporation courtney campbell causeway suite tampa phone fax email george perkins east sun com
sci.med	cure for dry skin article apr pbs org jlecher pbs org writes matter fact just saw dermatologist the other day and while seeing dermatologist sounds like very good idea you are worried about your dry skin don mackie his opinions
sci.med	insensitive technicians article rrhi inn ceti unc edu john eyles jge unc edu writes friend unpleasant experience uring scan deleted there anything can about these pigs suggest writing detailed letter about the incident the hospital administrator specify the date and time possible the names the technicians send copy the clinician under whose care your friend was admitted say this because though your friend has argument with the doctor have found that administrators sometimes ignore complaints until the patient becomes litigious clinicians may not have been informed the complaint and are very surprised find themselves named suit there response within week send follow letter attach photocopy the original letter this weekly until you get response cat scans are non invasive but they can very scary the scanner can bad place for the claustrophobic there was interesting study the bmj about years ago which found that around people who had cat scans found unpleasant that they would never have another this compares with who said the same about lumbar puncture don mackie his opinions
sci.med	legality placebos how that placebos are legal would seem that patient you purchase drug you been prescribed and just sugar whatever there few legal complications that arise you have been diagnosed with condition and you aren given accepted treatment for seems like intentional medical malpractice placebo should fall legally under the label quackery why not getting what you pay for deceptive bait and switch extreme false advertising what mcdonalds didn put pure beef their hamburgers mystified are these assumptions erred they aren why the hell can doctor knowingly unknowingly prescribe placebo thanks calzone
sci.med	vitamin and hearing loss heard news report indicating research showing improved hearing people taking vitamin the research showed that new growth replaced damaged hairlike nerves has anyone heard about this thanks claude claude bowie voice federal express corp fax box memphis email claude banana fedex com
sci.med	deadly nyquil originally posted this alt suicide holiday but was recommended that try you guys instead friend insists that quil can deadly enough taken suggested something like the night time gelcaps would someone being normal user quil checked the ingredients and have very hard time believing they are acetaminophen pseudoephedrine hcl dextromethorphan hbr doxylamine succinate per softgel can someone settle our bet package quil course what effect would these babies have nathan inter arma silent leges worship ditka now email bitn midway uchicago edu
sci.med	thyroidal deficiency article sfb mvs draper com sfb mvs draper com eileen bauer writes thyroxin controls energy production which explains sleepiness coldness and weight gain there also water retention possibly around heart changes vision and coarser hair and skin among other things there any relation between thyroid deficiency and depression
sci.med	info colonics and purification article cup portal com mark robert thorson mmm cup portal com writes colonics were health fad the century which persists this day except for certain medical conditions there reason this certainly normal person should this article apr informix com robert hartman hartman informix com writes also insofar doesn conform the accepted medical presumption that just doesn matter what you eat and that can think the tract black box which nothing ever goes wrong except for maybe cancer and ulcers the righteous will doubt jump that too recently completed week juice fast with days water and had two colonics part motivation was primarily spiritual toxify from all the crap been putting body not like thats enough clean all out but did have effect personaly didn find uncomfortable experience the colonic lost about lbs beer belly which hasn come back over the last month and feel great one the things that prompted get the colonic was seeing year old grandmother chair ridden from colitis from years indulgence not everything that goes comes out and personaly don mind giving body hand once while just experience george paap beliefs which almost certainly are not those employer
sci.med	legality placebos calzone athena mit edu wrote how that placebos are legal would seem that patient you purchase drug you been prescribed and just sugar whatever there few legal complications that arise you have been diagnosed with condition and you aren given accepted treatment for seems like intentional medical malpractice placebo accepted treatment times placebo should fall legally under the label quackery why not why should placebos are effective under certain circumstances that why they used actually don know know anyone who has actually gotten sugar pill don know how could done since prescription drugs are always labeled and easy enough find out what pill you have the name more common prescribe drug which effective for something just not for what you have antibiotics for viral infections are the most common such placebo getting what you pay for deceptive bait and switch extreme false advertising what mcdonalds didn put pure beef their hamburgers not sure what you mean this what you think you paying for you not entitled prescription drug just because you pay for doctor appointment jack hamilton ttl jfh netcom com box usa
sci.med	vitamin and hearing loss article apr banana fedex com claude banana fedex com claude bowie writes heard news report indicating research showing improved hearing people taking vitamin the research showed that new growth replaced damaged hairlike nerves has anyone heard about this claude not heard read anything that would suggest that vitamin retinol could reverse hearing loss due nerve damage usually caused high sound levels but also occassionally due severe infection the types cells that vitamin regulates are the general epithelial cells and these cell types are not the ones that function the ear hearing process the hair cell nerve like epithelial cells the ear may respond vitamin during cellular differentiation embryogenesis but don know they are still capable responding adults they are capable responding with new hair growth this would very major breakthrough hearing loss with all the medical interest vitamin would not too surprising clinical study was done using vitamin reverse hearing loss but with only news announcement and this type communication notoriously bad can comment your question anymore than already have one study has been done more will need follow firm link between vitamin and hearing loss there really one marty
sci.med	thyroidal deficiency article apr adobe com abruno adobe andrea bruno writes article sfb mvs draper com sfb mvs draper com eileen bauer writes thyroxin controls energy production which explains sleepiness coldness and weight gain there also water retention possibly around heart changes vision and coarser hair and skin among other things there any relation between thyroid deficiency and depression perhaps the listlessness caused thyroid deficiency could mimic depression feeling unable anything could cause one get depressed but know specific effect the brain caused the thyroid that would cause depression note that weight gain usually symptom both simple blood tests would indicate thyroid condition present don know depression would cause reduction thyroid output but would tend doubt far know clinical depression caused chemical imbalance the brain and that chemical imbalance has direct effect any other part the body regular everyday depression imho should not cause chemical imbalance the body all the pituitary bases its secretions thyroid stimulating hormone tsh the level circulating thyroxin there are two types and one used reserve and changed into the other active form the liver the ratio can affected number other hormones estrogen for example naturally changing activity the body cells would cause changes availabilty free thyroxin but the liver and healthy thyroid should able balance things out short order good sources for info the thyroid are the merk manual physician reference book although reading enough get one depressed and the encyclopedia brittanica should available your local library hope this has been some help eileen bauer
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type insulin dependent and type non insulin dependent diabetes both technical discussions and general support discussions relevant diabetes are welcome postings misc heath diabetes are intended for discussion purposes only and are way construed medical advice diabetes serious medical condition requiring direct supervision primary health care physician end charter steve kirchoefer code kirchoefer estd nrl navy mil naval research laboratory microwave technology branch washington electronics sci and tech division
sci.med	krillean photography ttrusk its mcw edu thomas trusk writes but say you atheist suggest you have proof there god politically correct skeptic better with agnostic like self proclaimed atheist position that believe that there god don claim have any proof interpret the agnostic position having beliefs about god existence grant edwards yow are there yet rosemount inc mind submarine grante aquarius rosemount com
sci.med	chromium for weight loss article uicvm uic edu uicvm uic edu writes there data show chromium effective promoting weight loss the few studies that have been done using chromium have been very flawed and inher ently biased the investigators were making money from marketing theoretically really doesnt make sense either the claim that chromium will increase muscle mass and decrease fat course chromium also used cure diabetes high blood pressure and increase muscle mass athletes just well anabolic steroids sounds like snake oil for the where are your references have been unable find studies that state that chromium cures diabetese can reduce the amount insulin you have take high blood pressure have never heard this claim before anabolic steroids have also never heard this claim before sounds like you are making things and stretching the truth for god knows what reason did somebody piss you off one time the other hand really cant hurt you anywhere but your wallet and place effects anything can pretty dramatic agree with you that chromium picolinate itself isn likely make fat person thin but can the decisive component overall strategy for long term weight control and make important contribution good health important exercise and also avoid fat calories chromium picolinate has shown reduce fat and increase lean muscle will not bore you with the statistics you wouldn believe these anyway chromium picolinate exceptionally bioactive source the essential mineral chromium chromium plays vital role sensitizing the body tissues the hormone insulin weight gain the form fat tends impair sensitivity insulin and thus turn makes harder lose weight insulin directly stimulates protein synthesis and retards protein breakdown muscles this protein sparing effect insulin tends decline during low calorie diets insulin levels decline which results loss muscle and organ tissue sensitizing muscle insulin chromium picolinate helps preserve muscle dieters that they burn more fat and less muscle preservation lean body mass has important long term positive effect metabolic rate helping dieters keep off the fat they lost chromium picolinate promotes efficient metabolism aiding the thermogenic heat producing effects insulin insulin levels serve rough index the availability food calories not all surprising that insulin stimulates metabolism note that did not say that chromium picolinate increases metabolism summary you need change your life style order loose weight and stay healthy reduce dietary fat consumption more than calories eating fat makes you fat increase dietary fiber low calories high nutrients get regular aerobic exercise least times week burn calories take chromium picolinate daily lose fat keep muscle references kaats fisher blum abstract american aging association annual meeting denver october evans int biosoc med res page ward southern animal sci suppl abstract felig clin physiol kimball jefferson diabetes metab rev fukugawa minaher rowe clin invest fehlmann freychet biol chem pittman suda chambers ray metabolism danforth clin nutr mccarty med hypoth bielinski schutz jequier clin nutr young treadway balon garvas ruderman metabolism best regards michael vincze mav asd dseg com
sci.med	deadly nyquil bitn kimbark uchicago edu writes friend insists that quil can deadly enough taken suggested something like the night time gelcaps would someone being normal user quil checked the ingredients and have very hard time believing they are acetaminophen pseudoephedrine hcl dextromethorphan hbr doxylamine succinate per softgel can someone settle our bet package quil course what effect would these babies have the acetaminophen the agent concern overdose this otc medication single dose acetaminophen grams greater can cause hepatotoxicity and doses grams more are potentially fatal from hepatic necrosis recall correctly the metabolism acetaminophen high doses involves hydroxylation acetyl benzoquinoneimine which highly reactive intermediate which then reacts with sulfhydryl groups proteins and glutathione when hepatic glutathione used this intermediate then starts attacking the hepatic proteins with resulting hepatic necrosis the insidious part acetaminophen toxicity the delay days between ingestion and clinical signs liver damage this not nice way die taking these tablets that comes grams acetaminophen normal adult this would probably cause nausea vomiting abdominal pain and loss appetite bob schmieg
sci.med	earwax hbloom moose uvm edu heather writes you can try adding few drops olive oil into the ear during shower soften the wax this for couple days then try syringing again also safe point your ear the shower head and allow the water rinse out about six years ago ears clogged with wax probably result much headphone use anyway the clinic that cleaned them out used the following procedure inject olive oil into ears prevent leakage oil with cotton come back hour rinse ears with warm vater forcefully injected into ear very strange sensation done they had special tools this and were evidently quite familiar with the problem very large steel syringe special bowl with cutout for ear take the grime coming out without spillage good luck seconded bjorn bjornsson brb falcon
sci.med	legality placebos article jfhc netcom com jfh netcom com jack hamilton writes actually don know know anyone who has actually gotten sugar pill more common prescribe drug which effective for something just not for what you have antibiotics for viral infections are the most common such placebo and presumably this matter degree must common prescribe drug that has some chance giving some benefit but not high probability and not large benefit right michael covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt uga edu the university georgia phone athens georgia amateur radio tmi
sci.med	burzynski antineoplastons article icgln asuacad bitnet icgln asuacad bitnet writes good source information burzynski method the cancer industry pulitzer prize nominee ralph moss interesting what book got moss the pulitzer nomination none the flyers for his books mention this and none the cancer chronicle newsletters that have mention this either also non profit organization called people against cancer which was formed for the purpose allowing cancer patients access information regarding cancer therapies not endorsed the cancer industry but which have shown highly promising results all which are non toxic moss people against cancer director communications people against cancer seems offer pretty questionable information not exactly the place cancer patient should advised turn most maybe all the infomation their latest catalogue concern treatments that have been shown ineffective against cancer and many the treatments are quite dangerous well sdb sdb ssr com
sci.med	burzynski antineoplastons article jschwimmer wccnet wcc wesleyan edu jschwimmer wccnet wcc wesleyan edu josh schwimmer writes any opinions burzynski antineoplastons information about the current status his research would appreciated burzynski work not too promising none his through antineoplastons have been shown have antineoplastic effects against experimental cancer the nci conducted tests and against leukemia mice with the result that doses high enough produce toxic effects the mice were not effective inhibiting the growth the tumor killing these were and burzynski claims that the active factor common all and something which has not shown has only been extracted from also hasn shown that through are actually distinct substances the nci conducted series tests using against standard panel tumors that included different cell lines from tumors the following classes leukemia non small cell and small cell lung cancer colon cancer cancer the central nervous system melanoma ovarian cancer and renal cancer exhibited neither growth inhibition nor cytotoxicity the dose levels tested necessary process since not soluble burzynski theory requires soluble agents but this basically hydrolizes pag which calls pag not information carrying peptide something which byrzynski claims necessary for antineoplastic activity also derived from mixture and pag also not peptide can purchased chemical supply houses for about gram chemically extremely similar glutithamide and thalidomide both which are habit forming and can cause peripheral neuropathy the nasty effects thalidomide are widely known spite this similarity does not appear have been tested for potential induce teratogenicity peripheral neuropathy many burzynski statements about the origin his theory early research past and present support others for his work have been shown untrue sdb sdb ssr com
sci.med	iridology any credence article dpw com jprice dpw com janice price writes saw printed flyer that stated the person was licensed herbologist and iridologist what are your opinions how much can you tell about person health looking into their eyes its bogus see the sci skeptic faq edit you can diagnose some things looking the eyes glaucoma the classic example but there are probably others iridology maps parts the body onto the irises the eyes looking the patterns striations and occasional blobs the irises you are supposed able diagnose illnesses all over the body the two questions ask any alternative therapist are how does work what evidence there the answer question takes little knowledge medicine evaluate don know about iridology but read book reflexology which remarkably similar notion except that the organs the body are mapped onto the soles the feet there are supposed channels running down the body carrying information energy some sort anatomists have found such structures always beware the words channel and energy any spiel put out alternative practitioner the answer question rather simpler all they have anecdotal evidence then forget ask for referreed papers mainstream medical journals ignore any bull about the conspiracy rich doctors suppressing alternative practitioners studies are done and papers are published some them are even positive the word licensed the flyer interesting one licensed whom for what quite possible that the herbology real and requires license you can kill someone giving them the wrong plants eat and many plants contain very powerful drugs foxglove and willow spring mind not clear whether the license extends the iridology and suspect that you ask you will told that means licensed herbologist and iridologist btw the usual term herbalist why use different word paul johnson paj gec mrc tel ext these ideas and others like them can had gec marconi research not for each from any reputable idealist responsible for opinions
sci.med	cats and pregnancy hello heard that certain disease toxoplasmosys transmitted cats which can harm the unborn fetus does anybody know about problem have cat the same apartment see the rec pets cats faq any doctor vet for more information not any the above but have couple cats transmitted through the fecal matter pregnant woman should avoid cleaning the cat tray and you should both wash hands before preparing eating meals the latter sound advice any time course apart from that its great problem you certainly not need get rid your cats paul paul johnson paj gec mrc tel ext these ideas and others like them can had gec marconi research not for each from any reputable idealist responsible for opinions
sci.med	thyroidal deficiency abruno adobe andrea bruno writes article sfb mvs draper com sfb mvs draper com eileen bauer writes thyroxin controls energy production which explains sleepiness coldness and weight gain there also water retention possibly around heart changes vision and coarser hair and skin among other things there any relation between thyroid deficiency and depression there can but depression not diagnositic thyroid deficiency thyroid blood tests are easy cheap and effective diagnosing thyroid deficiencies jackie
sci.med	persistent chronic article hsdndev harvard edu rind enterprise bih harvard edu david rind writes article enea enea apple com enea applelink apple com horace enea writes can anyone out there tell the difference between persistent disease and chronic one for example persistent hepatitis chronic hepatitis don think there general distinction rather there are two classes chronic hepatitis chronic active hepatitis and chronic persistent hepatitis can think any other disease where the term persistent used with preference chronic much these two terms chronic active and chronic persistent sound fuzzy the actual distinction between the two conditions often fairly fuzzy well beg differ chronic active hepatitis implies that the disease remains active and generally leads liver failure the very minimum the patient has persistently elevated liver enzymes what some call transaminitis chronic persistant hepatitis simply means that the patient has hbsag his her blood and can transmit the infection but shows evidence progressive disease had choose much rather have the persistant type kenneth gilbert university pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not programmer
sci.med	pregnency without sex len howard tas pegasus com wrote well now doc sure would not want bet life those little critters not being able get thru one layer sweat soaked cotton their way their programmed task infrequent yes unlikely yes but impossible learned long time ago never say never medicine len howard facog yes suppose single layer wet cotton would feasible after all certainly not make condoms out cotton kenneth gilbert university pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not programmer
sci.med	nose picking have two quations ask does cause the body any harm one picks one nose for example might lead loss ability smell harmful for one eat one nose pickings stephen
sci.med	pregnency without sex article apr oswego oswego edu harry matthews writes heard community swimming pools refered public urinals what else going you swim nude public swimming pool doubt sperm can penetrate swimsuit material assuming they aren immediately dispersed water currents brian tao taob node hub org node bbs free taobri wave scar utoronto university toronto
sci.med	krillean photography article oil vuse vanderbilt edu alexander zijdenbos writes neither real believer nor disbeliever when comes called paranormal stuff but far concerned just likely the existence for instance god which seems quite accepted our societies without any scientific basis but one least not many people are trying pass off god scientific fact not with kirlian photography admit that possible that some superior intelligence exists elsewhere and people want label that intelligence god not going stop them anyway let not turn this into theological debate convinced that serious mistake close your mind something anything simply because doesn fit your current frame reference history shows that many great people great scientists were people who kept open mind and were ridiculed sceptics read alt fan robert mcelwaine sometime never been closed minded before subscribing that group brian tao taob node hub org node bbs free taobri wave scar utoronto university toronto
sci.med	centi and milli pedes remember kid visiting relatives kauai and one the things that really frightened was centipedes been told they were poisonous and infrequently one would pop and scare the heck out once one came out the vacuum cleaner and seemed like was least foot long and moving miles hour
sci.med	need info circumcision medical cons and pros menon boulder colorado edu ravi deantha menon writes aezpete deja aiss uiuc edu writes the penile cancer thing has been completely debunked she must going school south pacific island tell her check the journal urology for circumcision articles remember least old jewish man cut birth who developed penile cancer mean the cancer risk was that great the europe who have been circumcising like crazy too teaching boy how keep his cockhead clean the issue little proper hygiene goes long way americans are just too hung the penis consider cleaning that just way too much like mastubation you have surgical intervention that basically unnecessary peter schlumpf university illinois urbana champaign recall statistical anomaly because the sample involved the studies certain that were true the europeans would cutting kids right left first off use some decent terms don mind this sci med not alt sex secondly how absolutely bogus assume that american are just too hung the penis blah blah think most american don care about anything comlicated that they just think looks nicer ask few them and see what response you get others still opt for circumcision due religious traditions and beliefs some think easier clean still others because daddy was think alot blindly because dad had done but there are many who get bamboozled into with the bogus cancer thing awhile back some quack told friend mine that would help prevent aids yeah right sarchasm dont naive think american are afraid sexuality yeah scene navy boot camp son you smel awful dont you ever clean that thing recruit sir why the hell not recruit your not sposed touch down there why recruit cause thats the eye god down there your not posed touch this did not happen years ago happened years ago think americans are quite hung about sex and the involved plumbing
sci.med	info colonics and purification not everything that goes comes out and personaly don mind giving body hand once while just experience george paap got very nice collection historical books medical quackery and the topic massage this recurring theme ordinary massage intended make person feel better especially they have muscular joint problems but like chiropracty there are some practitioners who take the technique far extreme invoking what seems quack science justify their technique the case massage there technique called deep abdominal massage which the masseur literally attempting massage the intestines the notion that undigested food adheres the inner surface the intestines and putrifies releasing poisons which cause various disease syndromes this vigorous and painful procedure alleged that these deposits can loosened and passed out just can believe this idea has any truth behind the human intestine not new york city sewer pipe and even were you eat half small box triscuits and there ain gonna nothin sticking the inner surface your intestine
sci.med	data skull from gary concave wits gary taylor are trying develop image reconstruction simulation for the skull you could high resolution computed tomographic scanning the skull many scanners have algorithm reconstructions any plane you want you did reconstructions every degrees all planes you could use the resultant images create user controlled animation slmr mail jim zisfein factory com jim zisfein
sci.med	need info circumcision medical cons and pros article rsvgr nym ossi com texx ossi com texx writes yeah scene navy boot camp son you smel awful dont you ever clean that thing recruit sir why the hell not recruit your not sposed touch down there why recruit cause thats the eye god down there your not posed touch this did not happen years ago happened years ago think americans are quite hung about sex and the involved plumbing wow that certainly convinced that all americans hung about sex just one example something that probably ran hustler mag enough convince sarchasm off patrick draper zbt are nation laws not people draper umcc umich edu flames dev koresh university michigan computer club
sci.med	pregnency without sex article botf node hub org taob node hub org brian tao writes article apr oswego oswego edu harry matthews writes heard community swimming pools refered public urinals what else going you swim nude public swimming pool doubt sperm can penetrate swimsuit material assuming they aren immediately dispersed water currents brian tao taob node hub org node bbs free taobri wave scar utoronto university toronto here again university gary gregory kentucky gwgreg ukcc uky edu ukkk uuk uuu department gyn medical center lexington kentucky
sci.med	nose picking don know causes the body any harm but the years been teaching nine and ten years olds never had one fall over from eating boogers which many kids regular basis when they think one looking
sci.med	meaning atheism agnosticism was krillean photography sci med removed from followups and not read any the other newsgroups article apr rosevax rosemount com grante aquarius rosemount com grant edwards writes self proclaimed atheist position that believe that there god don claim have any proof interpret the agnostic position having beliefs about god existence that fine these words have multiple meanings self proclaimed atheist believe that some conceptions god are inconsistent conflict with fact and lack belief other conceptions god merely because there reason for believe these usually use the word agnostic mean someone who believes that the existence god unknown inherently unknowable note that this positive belief that quite different from not believing god not believe god but also not believe the agnostic claim russell
sci.med	repelling wasps this cross post rec gardens and sci med set the follow line the header depending what kind advice you give mail directly ceci lysator liu have problem with wasps they seem love last summer couldn spend more than ten fifteen minutes time garden before one several wasps would come for asking for advice how repel wasps this year the wasps have built their nest under stone next one tiny ponds the caretaker poor fellow will have take care them and that will give head start them last year couldn find any nest even after the caretaker has gassed the nest tiny garden square meter other wasps will most likely vie for the territory there anything can grow rub skin spread the soil that will repel the black and yellow bastards never mind turns skin purple kills off all beloved plants want able spend time garden like everyone else would help remove the ponds and the bird bath the wasps seem come drink them and suppose that their prey will breed them the black tits seem afraid the wasps because soon the wasp season starts they stop coming have their bath even when not trying win back patio from wasps they seem love the advice usually get when ask what about wasps stand still and not wave arms got some painful stings when trying follow that advice have also tried use hygienic products without perfumes avail they still love and come for even when the middle crowd far only two things seem work kill dead run into the house and close all doors and windows don have problem with bees bumble bees just wasps patronizing advice redirected dev null ceci ceci lysator liu the number rational hypotheses that can explain any given phenomenon infinite phaedrus law from pirsig zen and the art motorcycle maintenance
sci.med	lithium questions doctor wants year old article rrv pepper east sun com george crayola east sun com would like know anything you folks can tell regarding lithium have year old son that lives with wife she has been having difficulty with his behavior and has had him ritalin tofranil and now wants try lithuim the local doctors suggestion would like know whatever important that should know worry about this sort thing and would like pros cons regarding lithium therapy have booklet from the lithium information center based the university wisconsin but feel that pro lithium and would interested comments from the not necessarily pro side the fence concerned father and just wish well informed get antsy about posts like this the concern more for son about ife the standard impartial procedure ask for second opinion about son condition then too son acting out games between divorced parents
sci.med	lithium questions doctor wants year old article rfm psuvm psu edu rfm psuvm psu edu writes someone writes have year old son that lives with wife she has been having difficulty with his behavior and has had him ritalin tofranil and now wants try lithuim the local doctors suggestion would like know whatever important that should know worry about this sort thing and would like pros cons regarding lithium therapy get antsy about posts like this the concern more for son about ife the standard impartial procedure ask for second opinion about son condition then too son acting out games between divorced parents precisely one wonders what unusual strain the boy might under that could causing difficulty with his behavior standard practice would get second opinion from child psychiatrist one would want rule out the possibility that the bad behavior not psychiatric illness all disclaimer not medic but parent michael covington associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt uga edu the university georgia phone athens georgia amateur radio tmi
sci.med	persistent chronic article blue cis pitt edu kxgst pitt edu kenneth gilbert writes article hsdndev harvard edu rind enterprise bih harvard edu david rind writes article enea enea apple com enea applelink apple com horace enea writes can anyone out there tell the difference between persistent disease and chronic one for example persistent hepatitis chronic hepatitis don think there general distinction rather there are two classes chronic hepatitis chronic active hepatitis and chronic persistent hepatitis can think any other disease where the term persistent used with preference chronic much these two terms chronic active and chronic persistent sound fuzzy the actual distinction between the two conditions often fairly fuzzy well beg differ chronic active hepatitis implies that the disease remains active and generally leads liver failure the very minimum the patient has persistently elevated liver enzymes what some call transaminitis chronic persistant hepatitis simply means that the patient has hbsag his her blood and can transmit the infection but shows evidence progressive disease had choose much rather have the persistant type being chronic hbsag carrier does not necessarily mean the patient has chronic persistent anything persons who are chronic carriers may have clinical biochemical histologic evidence liver disease they may have chronic persistent hepatitis chronic active hepatitis cirrhosis hepatocellular carcinoma most cases chronic persistent hepatitis cph are probably the result viral infection although good number cases the cause cannot determined the diagnosis cph made the basis liver biopsy consists findings portal inflammation intact periportal limiting plate and occasion isolated foci intralobular necrosis but contrast chronic active hepatitis cah there periportal inflammation bridging necrosis fibrosis cph has indeed excellent prognosis had choose between cah and cph there question would also choose cph however david pointed out the distinction between the two not neat some would have the histology can sometimes pretty equivocal with biopsies showing areas compatible with both cph and cah maybe sampling problem maybe continuum don know howard doyle doyle pitt edu
sci.med	info colonics and purification article cup portal com mmm cup portal com mark robert thorson writes not everything that goes comes out and personaly don mind giving body hand once while just experience george paap got very nice collection historical books medical quackery and the topic massage this recurring theme ordinary massage intended make person feel better especially they have muscular joint problems but like chiropracty there are some practitioners who take the technique far extreme invoking what seems quack science justify their technique the case massage there technique called deep abdominal massage which the masseur literally attempting massage the intestines the notion that undigested food adheres the inner surface the intestines and putrifies releasing poisons which cause various disease syndromes this vigorous and painful procedure alleged that these deposits can loosened and passed out just can believe this idea has any truth behind the human intestine not new york city sewer pipe and even were you eat half small box triscuits and there ain gonna nothin sticking the inner surface your intestine mark this the most reasonable post that seen sci med the topic colonic flushing profession that uses manipulation very refined form massage treat various human diseases proving that manipulation works has been extremely difficult the delight pointing out the osteopathic profession seems making better progress than the chiropractors proving scientifically that their techingues work the jaoa recently had study the use manipulation relieve mensrual cramps women with results that were good better than drug treatment using physiological measurements and not just the woman preception improvement this study was hailed the jaoa editors the turning point the profession long struggle prove itself the medical community currently trying get the aoa american osteopathic association which has supported most the osteopathic research the also support nutrition education and research pointed out grant proposal that the founder osteopathic medicine still embraced both diet and manipulation set himself apart from the his time who were pushing only drugs still was himself who got real dissillusioned with drugs during his service the civil war decided that there had better way treat human disease since saw the cure drugs being worse than the disease through his many years study the human body developed his manipulation techniques that then taught his students the first osteopathic medical school now have still used manipulation treat and also diagnose human disease but used diet prevent human disease trying get the osteopathic profession return roots and beat the the punch speak both and current medical practice have very little understanding how diet affects human health this has change martin banschbach professor biochemistry and chairman department biochemistry and microbiology osu college osteopathic medicine you are what you eat
sci.med	opinions allergy hay fever shots article apr nntpd cxo dec com tung paaiec enet dec com writes have just started taking allergy shots month ago and still wondering what getting into friend mine told that the body change every years whatever that means and don need those antibody building allergy shots all does that make sense anyone btw can someone summarize what the consumer report february article reluctant summarize for then you will have opinion what the article says rather than your own opinion think important enough for you take the trouble the library and get the article the title the shot doctors and appears pages the february issue consumer reports the following excerpt from the article may entice you read the whole article too often shots are overused when you put patient shots you got annuity for life former president the american academy allergy and immunology told page
sci.med	need info circumcision medical cons and pros texx ossi com texx writes scene navy boot camp son you smel awful dont you ever clean that thing recruit sir why the hell not recruit your not sposed touch down there why recruit cause thats the eye god down there your not posed touch this did not happen years ago happened years ago think americans are quite hung about sex and the involved plumbing cute anecdote but hardly indicative the population from the responses received that post all from men the way get the impression that unless person willing drop down and masturbate whenever the need desire strikes then that person very hung sex with programs about boobs seinfeld and masturbation again seinfeld and with condoms being handed out high schools and with the teenage pregnancy rate and the high abortion rate here the states would not assume that american are frightened sex rather are bit stupid about healthy sexuality does not require flamboyance promiscuity requires responsibility deantha
sci.med	deadly nyquil article murdoch acc virginia edu res galen med virginia edu robert schmieg writes partial deletion potentially fatal from hepatic necrosis recall correctly the metabolism acetaminophen high doses involves hydroxylation acetyl benzoquinoneimine which highly reactive intermediate which then reacts with sulfhydryl groups proteins and glutathione when hepatic glutathione used this intermediate then starts attacking the hepatic proteins with resulting hepatic necrosis the insidious part acetaminophen toxicity the delay days between ingestion and clinical signs liver damage this not nice way die nice explanation except that isn hydroxylation that causes the formation the acetyl benzoquinone imine napqi but rather direct two electron oxidation addition there one school thought that contends that oxidative stress rather than arylation protein the more critical factor the hapatotoxcity acetaminophen far drug toxicities acetaminophen has and continues one the most intensely scrutinized excellent recent review the topic can found vermeulen bessems and van straat molecular aspects paracetamol induced hepatotoxicity and its mechanism based prevention drug metabolism reviews acetaminophen known paracetamol europe couldn agree with you more about what awful way die toxic dose acetaminophen causes heard number descriptions physicians associated with poison control centers and they describe lingering very painful death gary
sci.med	sleep the pulse relaxation roaming while sleeping posted about pulse relaxation electricity now think more like pulse relaxation comfort than pulse electricity what you feel you are overwhelmed feeling comfort such seeing thinking about something beautiful another thing when you sleep you lie down facing with your palms aside you and facing down the surface the bed then you relax and there start involuntary nerve firings inside your flesh you feel shiver below the surface the skin not heart beat then this shiver increases and comes your head and the roam you hear loudens note that you always hear high pitch when you lie down bed this just the noise your blood running your ear this roam different from the high pitch but follows the shiver your body shiver not the word may called mild vibration quake what this shiver and roam can use this induce out body experience daniel chung
sci.med	help with antidepressants requested hello all there small problem friend mine experiencing and would appreciate any help all with friend has been diagnosed having severe case depression requiring antidepressants for cure the main problem the side effects these far she has been prescribed prozac aurorix and tryptanol all with different but unbearable side effects the prozac gave very bad anxiety jitters and insomina was impossible sit still for more than minute the aurorix whilst having calming effect all feelings were lost and the body ordination was similar drunken person her brain was clouded over the tryptanol gave tremors the legs and panic attacks along with unco ordination occurred she did not know what she was doing her brain was closed down has anyone had similar problems and have any suggestions the next step thankyou advance gordon taylor mail blubird penguin equinox gen
sci.med	persistent chronic article blue cis pitt edu doyle pitt edu howard doyle writes being chronic hbsag carrier does not necessarily mean the patient has chronic persistent anything persons who are chronic carriers may have clinical biochemical histologic evidence liver disease they may have chronic persistent hepatitis chronic active hepatitis cirrhosis hepatocellular carcinoma most cases chronic persistent hepatitis cph are probably the result viral infection although good number cases the cause cannot determined the diagnosis cph made the basis liver biopsy consists findings portal inflammation intact periportal limiting plate and occasion isolated foci intralobular necrosis but contrast chronic active hepatitis cah there periportal inflammation bridging necrosis fibrosis cph has indeed excellent prognosis had choose between cah and cph there question would also choose cph however david pointed out the distinction between the two not neat some would have the histology can sometimes pretty equivocal with biopsies showing areas compatible with both cph and cah maybe sampling problem maybe continuum don know darn just when think understand something someone who knows the pathology has burst bubble better not start talking about glomerular diseases then really get depressed seriously though wonder how someone with cph would end getting biopsy the first place understanding and feel free correct that the enzymes are worst mildly elevated with overall normal hepatic function would think that the only clue might history prior hepb infection and positive hepb sag indeed continuum with cah and the distinction merely one pathology and prognosis but otherwise identical clinical features kenneth gilbert university pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not programmer
sci.med	help with antidepressants requested article snx penguin equinox gen blubird penguin equinox gen gordon taylor wrote the prozac gave very bad anxiety jitters and insomina was impossible sit still for more than minute tried prozac few months ago and had some insomnia from but anxiety jitters probably could have lived with the insomnia the prozac had done any good but only provided tiny benefit maybe because the person who prescribed didn know much and gave after dose didn work now seeing psychiatrist who has put zoloft another serotonin reuptake inhibitor like prozac one pill day seemed help some now trying day zoloft has fewer and milder side effects than prozac think doctor said that only the people taking zoloft have discontinue because side effects the only problem having some minor distress but nothing too annoying hopefully the zoloft will work maybe your friend should try this one next psychiatrist strategy seems first try one the serotonin drugs usually prozac that works great works but has too many side effects try zoloft maybe paxil the serotonin drugs don work all try one the tricyclics like desipramine suggestions the next step having doctor who knows something about antidepressants can make big difference psychiatrist claims that most gps and fps don have much experience this area and from what seen inclined believe him think know more about antidepressants than the people family practitioner office disclaimer not doctor what know about this comes from talking psychiatrist and reading sci med john werner werner soe berkeley edu berkeley school education
sci.med	krillean photography article bot node hub org taob node hub org writes article oil vuse vanderbilt edu alexander zijdenbos writes neither real believer nor disbeliever when comes but one least not many people are trying pass off god will you please keep this crap out sci image processing
sci.med	antidepressants without restating the thread going here zoloft stimulating antidepressant unfortunate that antidepressant therapy trial and error but any help there are lot people using the side effects the many medications help manage other conditions hang there maybe someday brain chemistry set will available and all the serotonin questions will have answers please flames have enough deal with
sci.med	this total partial scam there chiropractor who has stand the middle shopping mall offering free examinations part the process involves multiple jointed sensor arm and computer that says computer sounding voice digitize left psis digitize right psis digitize please stand with spine neutral position wondering whether this doesn really measure anything and the computer voice impress the victims whether measuring something that chiropractors think useful measure haynes cats ucsc edu haynes cats bitnet can talk all wanna but dif rent than was aint but gotta know the territory meredith willson the music man
sci.med	this scam jim haynes wants know the following scam there chiropractor who has stand the middle shopping mall offering free examinations part the process involves multiple jointed sensor arm and computer that says computer sounding voice digitize left psis digitize right psis digitize please stand with spine neutral position wondering whether this doesn really measure anything and the computer voice impress the victims whether measuring something that chiropractors think useful measure earth sci med looks like duck and quacks like duck this total scam since the beginning chiropraxis the chiropractor has tried sell the subluxation the problem and then sell themselves and their adjustments the solution the chiropractic subluxation delusional diagnosis and the adjustments subluxations extension constitute delusional medicine the wide spectrum chiropractic techniques all have their own methods for detecting spinal demons and unique methodolgies for excorcizing them the computer approach attempt sell with science but this device nothing more than high tech subluxation detector and the end amazingly will show the potential patient suffer from vertebral subluxation the silent killer john badanes romdas uclink berkeley edu
sci.med	vasectomy health effects women apr gmt joshm yang earlham edu wrote article apr nic csu net eskagerb nermal santarosa edu eric skagerberg writes does anyone know any studies done the long term health effects man vasectomy his female partner heard studies but speculation why earth would there any effect women health that about the most absurd idea heard since ted kaldis claim that more than people would march washington one point greatly reduced chance pregnancy but that josh well there might another since sterile wife can enjoy sex without fear getting pregnant uucp rutgers valhalla btoy mrbulli compu erve internet mrbulli btoy rochester
sci.med	antihistamine for sleep aid article apr cts eiu edu cfaks cts eiu edu alice sanders writes but after you have taken antihistamines for few nights doesn start have paradoxical effect used take one every night for allergies and couldn figure out why developed bad insomnia insomnia known but relatively infrequent side effect diphenhydramine for most people this does not occur the other hand most people can build tolerance antihistamine with extended use allergy sufferers are often switched from one antihistamine another avoid this steven litvintchouk mitre corporation burlington road bedford fone arpa sdl mitre org uucp linus sdl
sci.med	nose picking article stephen mont stephen mont missouri edu stephen montgomery smith writes does cause the body any harm one picks one nose for example might lead loss ability smell may good way catch cold easy pick cold viruses your fingers either from touching contaminated surface shaking hands with someone that has cold then putting your fingers your nose will transfer the viruses your nose steven litvintchouk mitre corporation burlington road bedford fone arpa sdl mitre org uucp linus sdl
sci.med	persistent chronic article blue cis pitt edu kxgst pitt edu kenneth gilbert writes seriously though wonder how someone with cph would end getting biopsy the first place understanding and feel free correct that the enzymes are worst mildly elevated with overall normal hepatic function would think that the only clue might history prior hepb infection and positive hepb sag indeed continuum with cah and the distinction merely one pathology and prognosis but otherwise identical clinical features chronic persistent hepatitis usually diagnosed when someone does liver biopsy patient that has persistently elevated serum transaminases months after bout acute viral hepatitis when someone found have persistently elevated transaminases routine screening tests the degree elevation the serum transaminases can trivial much ten times normal other blood chemistries are usually normal rule patients with cph have clinical signs liver disease chronic active hepatitis can also asymptomatic minimally symptomatic least initially and that why important tell them apart means biopsy the patient with cph only needs reassured the patient with cah needs treated howard doyle doyle pitt edu
sci.med	what intersection syndrome and feldene went the orthopedist tuesday diagnosed having intersection syndrome prescribed feldene for want know more about the disease and the drug thanks somesh
sci.med	cancer the testis could someone give some information the cause pathophysiology and clinical manifestations and treatment this type cancer thank you advance jason
sci.med	how often kids fall sick etc our month son has started falling sick quite often every since started going day care was home for the first year and did not fall sick even once now seems like has some sort cold flu pretty much once month most the time the cold leads ear infection well with the result that ends being antibiotics weeks out know kids day care fall sick more often but are beginning wonder how often more often really whether our son more susceptible has lower immunity than average what the longer term effects constantly being sick and taking antibiotics are and what can build his resistance really enjoys his day care and think great too but are beginning wonder whether should think about getting nanny are there any studies that can help answer some these questions how often kids their first second and third years fall sick how often they get colds flus ear infections there any data home care day care does being sick build immunity leading less illness later does make kids weaker leading more illness later does not have any long term effect does taking antibiotics regular basis have any negative long term effects how does one tell child more susceptible illness than normal and what does one about there any way build immunity and resistance any data information advice relating this would much appreciated thanks lot ashwin
sci.med	athlete heart read that exercise makes the heart pump more blood stroke and that also makes the heart pumb slower order make for the greater volume internist who diagnosed block slow heart rate and pvc told something different she says that heart rate associated with the electrical properties the hear muscle not its size exercise lowers heart rate and increases stroke volume but the effects are unrelated except for their common source the block she asserts another electrical effect which irreversable even when exercise dicontinued pvc are also common runners ekg puts class with trained athletes and also with heart patients isn that strange though are there any not beneficial aspects athlete heart all good not worried just curious larry
sci.med	fever blisters cause and cures for fever blisters respectfully requested thanks iane origin another permannet kit
sci.med	how often kids fall sick etc article ashwin may leo gatech edu ashwin agatech edu ashwin ram writes our month son has started falling sick quite often every since started going day care was home for the first year and did not fall sick even once now seems like has some sort cold flu pretty much once month most the time the cold leads ear infection well with the result that ends being antibiotics weeks out know kids day care fall sick more often but are beginning wonder how often more often really whether our son more susceptible has lower immunity than average are there any studies that can help answer some these questions when kids stayed the home until kindergarden grade infection incidence was much lower because exposure was lower some studies suggest that early exposure various infectious diseases probably beneficial because exposure adult carries much more risk morbitity and mortality mumps measles etc how often kids their first second and third years fall sick how often they get colds flus ear infections there any data home care day care daycare will always carry higher exposure risk than home care does being sick build immunity leading less illness later does make kids weaker leading more illness later does not have any long term effect exposure infectious organisms does build immunity but many viruses mutate and reexposure the new strain requires another immune response new antibody production addition antibody levels tend decline with time and innoculation needed keep the antibody levels high chronic overstimulation the immune response can lead immunosupression but this rare and very unlikely occur children does taking antibiotics regular basis have any negative long term effects yes chronic use antibiotics can have adverse effect the good bacteria that are supposed present and the body health effects this depletion the good bacteria very hotly debated topic the medical community with most physicians seeming discount any health effects chronic antibiotic use view that not support how does one tell child more susceptible illness than normal and what does one about chronic infection adult child needs worked opinion but most physicians feel that chronic infection child normal because both exposure and lack prior immunity many infectious diseases not share this view and there are some physicians who also suspect that diet plays big role infection frequency and severity exposure infectious agent does not have result severe infection strong immune response can minimize the length time needed deal with the infection well the symptoms associated with the infection there any way build immunity and resistance there are five major nutrients that are responsible for good strong immune response infectious agents they are protein vitamin vitamin iron and zinc the american diet not low protein this rarely problem but vitamin vitamin iron and zinc are often low and this lack adequate pool nutrient reserve can impair the immune response iron know low most kids vitamin there are distinct biochemical tests that can run check the status each these nutrients patient who having problem with chronic severe infection serum ferritin for iron status dark adaptation for vitamin status red blood cell zinc for zinc status and leckocyte ascorbate for vitamin status have attempted work posts these five nutrients and their role infection for this news group well the others that participate can mail you what worked far but best advice you try find physician who recognizes the critical role that diet plays the human immune response you may also able get help from nutritionist anyone can call themselves nutritionist you have very carefull you want find someone like myself who has had some formal training and education nutrition many programs the now offer degrees nutrition and that what you need look for some dieticians will also call themselves nutritionists but most dieticians have not had the biochemical training needed run specialized nutritional assessment tests they are very good for getting general dietary advice from however any data information advice relating this would much appreciated thanks lot ashwin martin banschbach graduate degree biochemistry and nutrition from vpi and developer course human nutrition for medical students
sci.med	burzynski antineoplastons nnget article bjyt ssr com sdb ssr com scott ballantyne says article icgln asuacad bitnet icgln asuacad bitnet writes moss people against cancer director communications people against cancer seems offer pretty questionable information not exactly the place cancer patient should advised turn and where you advise people turn for cancer information most maybe all the infomation their latest catalogue concern treatments that have been shown ineffective against cancer and many the treatments are quite dangerous well seems you offered circular refutation moss organization who has shown the information the latest book pac questionable could those regulatory agencies and medical industries which moss showing operating with major vested interests whether one believes that these vested interests are real not whether not they actually shape medical research seperate argument one sees possibility however that these interests exist then the fact that some the information put out pac has been refuted the medical industry doesn hold much weight for the ineffectiveness antineoplasteons the fact that the nih didn find them effective doesn make much sense here course they didn tend have more faith the word the patients who are now alive after being told years ago that they would dead cancer soon they are fighting like hell keep that clinic open and they credit his treatment with their survival anyone who looks the nih record for investigation alterna tive cancer therapies will easily see that they have strange knack for find ing relatively cheap and nontoxic therapies dangerous useless
sci.med	help info claritin allergies doc handed samples claritin brand ioratadine tablet from schering corp tried find the pdr avail remember she mentioned this drug was relatively new the but available overseas for quite some time looking mostly for side effect contraindications and mode action such that differs from seldane and hismanal email newsgroup fine thanx advance steve giammarco peterson lane dallas marco sdf lonestar org loveyameanit
sci.med	nose picking stephen mont missouri edu stephen montgomery smith writes does cause the body any harm one picks one nose for example might lead loss ability smell harmful for one eat one nose pickings seen children this and wondered about something the mucus one nose collects filters particles going into the airway child then picks and ingests this material might have vaccinatory effect since the body ingests airborne diseases other stuff the mucus the body might generate antibodies for this small invasion maybe this why some children don get sick very often tom internet mvac thomas udel edu thomas mvac udel edu home lapp cdhub dnet dupont com work osi mci lapp uucp ucbvax mcvax uunet udel mvac thomas location newark usa
sci.med	thermoscan ear thermomete ashwin gatech edu ashwin ram does the thermoscan instrument really work supposed give you absolutely don have the other end accurate but technique important cccbbs rob welder uceng edu qmpro see only hurts for little while
sci.med	how often kids fall sick etc article ashwin may leo gatech edu ashwin gatech edu ashwin ram writes our month son has started falling sick quite often every since started going day care was home for the first year and did not fall sick even once now seems like has some sort cold flu pretty much once month most the time the cold leads ear infection well with the result that ends being antibiotics weeks out know kids day care fall sick more often but sounds pretty familiar posted similar cries about last september when caroline just entered daycare she was two then and have been with continuous colds since until last march spring approaches her colds slowed down meanwhile grew more and more relaxed about her colds only once did the doctor diagnosed ear infection and only twice she had antibiotics the other time was due sinus infection and wished that did not give her that awful septra are there any studies that can help answer some these questions there are the net studies that you read this newsgroup often there will round questions like this every month there might formal studies like that but bear with not academic experience okay how often kids their first second and third years fall sick how often they get colds flus ear infections gee bet you hear cases all these catagories there any data home care day care pretty sure insulated child home sicks less but that child still will face the world one day does being sick build immunity leading less illness later that what believe and comfort myself with caroline will get more and more colds for sure before she learned not stick her hand other kid mouth nor let other kids the same cold virus mutate easily however hope that her immune system will stronger fight these diseases she would less severely affected everytime she has cold make sure she blow her nose frequently and give her dorcol dimetapp night she can have good rest thanks some suggestions from the net that about all the care she needs from try very hard keep her off antibiotics twice her ped gave choice decide whether she would have antibiotics waited just long enough days see that she fought the illness off understand that you don have much choice the child pain and high fever does make kids weaker leading more illness later does not have any long term effect the child doesn rely antibiotics fight off the sickness everytime then the child should stronger does taking antibiotics regular basis have any negative long term effects leave this expert how does one tell child more susceptible illness than normal and what does one about your child just entered daycare pretty sure the first months will the hardest then you get more used boy hate see typing this sentence recall when read something like this last september said myself sure but get used now however hear people say that does get better after year two looking forward healthier next winter gets warmer hope you get some break soon there any way build immunity and resistance eat well sleep well try not use antibiotics not absolutely necessary good luck wen lin
sci.med	cure for dry skin jlecher pbs org writes article rmn morrow stanford edu mou nova stanford edu alex mou writes all skin very dry general but the most serious part located from knees down the skin there looks like segmented the segmentation actually happens beneath the skin would like know there any cure for this matter fact just saw dermatologist the other day and while was there asked him about dry skin been spending small fortune various creams lotions and other dry skin treatments said all needed was large jar vaseline soak lukewarm tub water for minutes only minutes then massage the vaseline trap the moisture that the standard advice dermatology texts the soak part greatly increases the inconvenience don bother unless doesn work otherwise the hard part will finding the time rub the vaseline properly exactly but adds the ritual aspect which important for suggestible patients posters don bother repeat the rationale for the soak not done right you remain greasy and stick greasy matter what vaseline generically petrolatum famous for that one text states that the more greasy dry skin cream the more effective try got cheaper then spending for natural lotion try usp lanolin least for maintenance preventive therapy usp lanolin natural and much less greasy and cheap don buy the more expensive perfumed lanolin mixture commented before petrolatum poorly characterized mixture hydrocarbons which are not found biological systems that not inherently bad but smell close even your hand are partially absorbed into the body and remain there for months more and have associations with cancer don panic but also don believe god gift the human skin oren haber schaim
sci.med	thermoscan ear thermometer article ashwin may leo gatech edu ashwin gatech edu ashwin ram writes does the thermoscan instrument really work supposed give you fast and accurate temperature reading the ear how far the ear does one have insert the instrument worth the currently selling for they not work well doctor started using one recently and thought the concept was amazing that bought one too the thing works reading the infrared emissions from the ear drum the ear drum hotter than the ear canal walls you have point the thing very carefully this means tugging the top the ear straighten out the ear canal then inserting the thing snugly then pushing button unfortunately there are many things that can wrong almost impossible aim the thing correctly when you yourself get readings which differ from each other degrees and may differ from oral thermometer degrees talked one the nurses doctor office recently about this and she said she didn like them either for same reasons she did give some instruction how tug ear and what correct insertion feels like but she said she thought was impossible correctly one self she also said that she and other nurses had complained the company about inaccurate readings and that someone from the company had told them take great care clean the infrared window the end the probe with alcohol from time time she demonstrated this prior reading temperature and managed get reading within degree the oral temperature took home before driving the office have also noticed tha some nurses click the button then remove the probe immediately this causes wrong readings experience you have leave the probe good seconds after clicking the button get good measurement the nurse talked with agreed suspect that many people don realize this and therefore get bad readings for yet another reason short great idea may work for some folks but believe doesn work well for person who wants take his own temperature
sci.med	muscle spasms post surgically had ankle reconstruction grafting the extensor digitorum longus the lateral side the ankle along with video arthroscopy the ankle interesting watch say the least since then have had periodic muscle spasms not cramping but twitching that very fast some the muscle groups along the lateral side and along the top foot with quinine sulfate produced ringing ears but did help with the spasms flexeril now but discernable help with the spasms any ideas one thing short leg cast heat not the answer renee roberts
sci.med	help for kidney stones previous article jeffs com jeff silva says was told doctor that time that the pain was comparable that childbirth yes male doctor sure some you women will disagree really like know the truth this maybe some you women who have had baby and kidney stone could fill had three children and the pain was different degree for each think just depends was impressed how awful kidney stone seemed when saw relative with one bet they depend too some are probably worse than others pain yucch bonita kale
sci.med	arthritis and diabetes have osteoarthritis and huband has just been diagnosed with diabetes type guess insulin been trying read these two conditions and what really surprises how few experiments have been done and how little known losing weight appears imperative for diabetes and advisable for arthritis least for women with arthritis but course the very conditions that make weight loss advisable are part the reason for the weight gain for myself almost afraid lose weight because matter how gentle and sensible diet use the last one was calories about eight small meals the weight won off gradually and stay off instead drops off precipitously and then comes back with much interest like bread the waters with this experience hard encouraging husband all can suggest make gradual possible meanwhile some experts recommend sugar others fat others just balanced diet almost impossible tell from their writings which parts their recommendations are supposed help the condition and which are merely ideas the expert thinks are nifty imagination are these very old conditions very poorly understood just that used pediatrician talk strep give him this and get well and expectations are too high bonita kale
sci.med	quality management 
sci.med	bacteria invasion and swimming pools have been struck down this past week stomach bug and fever which went away quickly when treated with antibiotic the pharmacist told the antibiotic effective against wide variety gram negative bacteria was wondering where might have acquired such bacteria could they hang out swimming pool water would the chlorine kill them feeling better bronstein disraeli leland stanford edu
sci.med	need info circumcision medical cons and pros bullshit
sci.med	drop your drawers and the doctor will see you organization temple university newsreader nnr last week went see gastroenterologist had never met this doctor before and she did not know what was there for soon arrived somebody showed examining room and handed gown they told undress from the waist down exact and wait for the doctor this the usual drill when you doctor for the first time don have much experience going doctors knock wood but the couple occasions when gone new doctor met him with clothes first introduced himself asked what was there for and took history all before undressed are patients usually expected get naked before meeting doctor for the first time personally prefer meet the doctor something remotely resembling condition parity and establish identity person who wears clothes before dropping drawers nothing else minimizes the time that have spend the self conscious ill ease and vulnerable condition person with bare bottom talking somebody who fully clothed does anybody besides regard this get naked first and then can talk attitude insensitive also unusual james arbuckle email temple edu
sci.med	persistent chronic article blue cis pitt edu doyle pitt edu howard doyle writes chronic persistent hepatitis usually diagnosed when someone does liver biopsy patient that has persistently elevated serum transaminases months after bout acute viral hepatitis when someone found have persistently elevated transaminases routine screening tests the degree elevation the serum transaminases can trivial much ten times normal other blood chemistries are usually normal rule patients with cph have clinical signs liver disease chronic active hepatitis can also asymptomatic minimally symptomatic least initially and that why important tell them apart means biopsy the patient with cph only needs reassured the patient with cah needs treated just went back the chapter cecil chronic hepatitis seems that indeed most cases cph are persistant viral hepatitis whereas there are multitude potential and probable causes for cah viral drugs alcohol autoimmune etc physicians seem have variety thresholds for electing biopsy someone liver personally think that the patient asymptomatic with only slight transaminitis and normal albumin and one can simply follow them closely and not add the potential risks biopsy others may well biopsy such patient thus providing these samples for study would interesting see anyone done any decision analysis this kenneth gilbert university pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit not programmer
sci.med	drop your drawers and the doctor will see you this not unusual practice the doctor also member nudist colony sir admit your gen ral rule that every poet fool but you yourself may serve show that every fool not poet pope
sci.space	help viewing voyager roms mac article cnp morrow stanford edu dmg forsythe stanford edu david gaba writes two and half years ago purchased set roms from the university colorado lab for atmos and space physics they were space sciences sampler and voyagers the outer planets with pixel pusher could never get past messages something like this file has pds label please fill the following info bunch slots with most zeros yet could open the image file word and see the label file the beginning the compressed image format used for the voyager disks not yet supported any macintosh display software that know however there does exist program that can convert the images format that recognized recent versions both pixel pusher and nih image called pds decompress and available via anonymous ftp from the pub directory delcano mit edu this binhex stuffit archive and contains the application itself think source and very brief description the most recent version nih image may down loaded from starhawk jpl nasa gov where located image hqx the pub directory this archive also contains source code but not the documentation which located the image hqx archive the same directory regards peter ford manager microwave subnode nasa planetary data system
sci.space	life mars know only wishful thinking with our current president but this from last fall there life mars maybe not now but there will daniel goldin nasa administrator august ken jenks nasa jsc space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov the man who makes mistakes does not usually make anything edward john phelps american diplomat lawyer
sci.space	drag free satellites regarding drag free satellites joe cain gives good description the concept however more than concept the navy triad satellite succesfully used drag free control drag free control integral part the stanford gravity probe spacecraft due fly also part the european step satellite jeff
sci.space	want that billion article rqinni mojo eng umd edu sysmgr king eng umd edu writes you need launch hlvs send large amounts stuff you know private titan pad nobody who interested launching things cheaply will buy titans doesn take many titan pricetags pay for laser launcher large gas gun development program for big dumb booster all which would have far better cost effectiveness henry made the assumption that who gets there firstest with the mostest wins only doesn spend more than billion dollars doing since the prize not going scaled match the level effort you can spend billion pretty quickly buying titan launches what more you buy titans the prize money your entire return investment you develop new launch system has other uses and the prize just the icing the cake doubt very much that billion dollar prize going show enough return justify the investment you are constrained use current launchers there would surely buy american clause the rules for such prize since would pretty well have government funded you going have invest your front money building new launch system rather than pissing away existing ones being there first importance you bankrupt doing could get couple canadarms tuned for the lunar environment wanna some teleoperated prospecting while there sure spar would offer develop such lunar tuned system and deliver couple them you for only couple hundred million dollars svr resembles high speed collision henry spencer toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	moonbase race george william herbert sez hmm billion lesse can probably launch tons leo million five years which gives about tons the lunar surface one way say five tons that return vehicle and its fuel bigger mercury something might get that low two tons leaving fifteen tons for one man habitat and year supplies gee with that sort mass margins can build the systems off the shelf for about another hundred million tops that leaves about million profit like this idea let see you guys can push someone make happen like your optimism george don know doots about raising that kind dough but you need people split the work and the you just give ring living alone for year the moon sounds horrid but even try that got bigger cut tommy mac tom mcwilliams the radius vision increases ibm msu edu the circumference mystery grows
sci.space	true globe who makes article bill xpresso uucp bill xpresso uucp bill vance writes has been known for quite while that the earth actually more pear shaped than globular spherical does anyone make globe that accurate actual shape landmass configuration long lat lines etc the variance from perfect sphericity model the earth small enough fit into your home would probably imperceptible any globe you can buy will close enough some things are too important not give away everybody else and have none left for yourself dieter the car salesman
sci.space	electronic journal the asa ejasa april the electronic journal the astronomical society the atlantic volume number april table contents asa membership and article submission information the soviets and venus part larry klaes asa membership information the electronic journal the astronomical society the atlantic ejasa published monthly the astronomical society the atlantic incorporated the asa non profit organization dedicated the advancement amateur and professional astronomy and space exploration well the social and educational needs its members asa membership application open all with interest astronomy and space exploration members receive the journal the asa hardcopy sent through united states mail not duplicate this electronic journal and the astronomical league reflector magazine members may also purchase discount subscriptions astronomy and sky telescope magazines for information membership you may contact the society any the following addresses astronomical society the 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larry klaes the author gives permission any group individual wishing distribute this article long proper credit given the author notified and the article reproduced its entirety the north pole june and two the soviet union mighty proton rockets lifted off from the tyuratam space center the kazakhstan republic aboard those boosters were new breed venera probe for the planet venus designated venera and the probes were meant not for landing yet more spherical craft the venerean surface but radar map the planet detail from orbit accomplish this task the basic venera design was modified numerous areas the central bus core was made one meter inches longer carry the two tons propellant required for braking into orbit double the fuel carried the venera and orbiters eight years earlier extra solar panels were added give the vehicles more power for handling the large amounts data which would created the radar imaging the dish shaped communications antennae were also made one meter larger properly transmit this information earth atop the buses where landers were usually placed were installed the meter foot kilogram pound polyus side looking radar antennae the radar system possibly terrain imaging version the nuclear powered satellites used the soviets for earth ocean surveillance would able map venus surface resolution one two kilometers miles the soviet probes imaging parameters were vast improvement over the united states pioneer venus orbiter which could reveal objects smaller than kilometers miles diameter and while the veneras resolution was comparable that similar observations made the meter foot arecibo radio telescope the island puerto rico the orbiters would examining the northern pole venus this region was unobtainable either arecibo pioneer venus and appeared contain number potentially interesting geological features worthy investigation october after interplanetary journey million kilometers million miles and two mid course corrections venera fired its braking rockets over venus place itself polar orbit kilometers miles around the planet completing one revolution every twenty four hours venera followed suit four days later the twin probes thus became venus first polar circling spacecraft radar operations began october for venera and october for venera for sixteen minutes every orbit over the north pole the probes would make radar sweep the surface kilometers ninety miles wide and nine thousand kilometers miles long the craft would then head out the highest part their orbits over the south pole recharge their batteries and transmit the data back two large soviet antennae earth each strip information took eight hours process computer the end their main missions july the veneras had mapped million square kilometers million square miles thirty percent the entire planet venera and revealed that venus has surface geology more complex than shown pioneer venus the late numerous hills mountains ridges valleys and plains spread across the landscape many them apparently formed lava from erupting volcanoes the last one billion years planetary terms this makes the venerean surface rather young hundreds craters were detected well the largest which had have been created meteorites planetoids would better term here least fourteen kilometers miles across due venus very dense atmosphere there were some disagreements between and soviet scientists the origins certain surface features for example the probes owners declared that the kilometer mile wide crater the summit meter foot high maxwell montes the tallest mountain the planet was the result meteorite impact american scientists the other hand felt the crater was proof that maxwell was huge volcano sitting the northern continent ishtar terra any event the decided wait making verdicts about venus until the arrival their own radar probe scheduled for later the decade originally named the venus orbiting imaging radar voir its initial design was scaled back and the craft was redesig nated the venus radar mapper vrm eventually the machine would called magellan after the portuguese navigator ferdinand magellan circa this vehicle would map the entire planet even finer detail than the veneras for the time however the soviet probes maintained that distinction radar imaging was not the only ability the veneras bolted next the polyus radar antenna were the omega altimeter and the fourier infrared spectrometer the latter for measuring the world temperatures the majority the areas covered registered about five hundred degrees celsius degrees fahrenheit but few locations were two hundred degrees hotter possibly indicating current volcanic activity the probes also found that the clouds over the poles were five eight kilometers three miles lower than the equator contrast the polar air above sixty kilometers thirty six miles altitude was five twenty degrees warmer than the equatorial atmosphere similar heights when the main mapping mission ended july there were plans for least one the veneras radar image the surface more southernly latitudes unfortunately this idea did not come pass the orbiters may not have possessed enough attitude control gas perform the operation venera and ceased transmission march leaving the soviet institute radiotechnology and electronics with six hundred kilometers miles radar data tape sort into atlas twenty seven maps the northern hemisphere venus venus balloon for years the thick atmosphere venus had been tempting target scientists who wished explore the planet mantle air with balloon borne instruments professor jacques blamont the french space agency centre national etudes spatiales cnes had proposed such idea far back only have joint french soviet balloon mission canceled nevertheless late the year such dreams would eventually come true when two proton rockets were sent skyward december and the soviet union provided western observers with the first clear full views the booster which had been launching every soviet venus probe since this was but one many firsts for the complex mission the unmanned probes launched into space that december were named vega and contraction the words venera and gallei gallei being the russian word for halley not only did the spacecraft have more than one mission perform they also had more than one celestial objective explore namely the comet halley this famous periodic traveler was making its latest return the inner regions the solar system since its last visit since was widely believed that comets are the icy remains from the formation the solar system five billion years ago scientists around the world gave high priority exploring one the few such bodies which actually come close earth most comets linger the cold and dark outer fringes the solar system some like halley are perturbed various forces and fall towards the sun where they circle for millennia spewing out ice and debris for millions kilometers from the warmth each solar encounter the soviet union along with the european space agency esa and japan institute space and astronautical science isas did not wish miss out this first opportunity human history make close examination halley the esa would using the cylindrical giotto probe make dangerously close photographic flyby the comet while japan first deep space craft sakigake pioneer and suisei comet would view halley from much safer distance scientists the united states also desired study the comet from the vantage space probe one time envisioning vessel powered solar sails ion engines however government budget cuts nasa canceled the american efforts the would have make primarily with earth based observations and the sharing data from other nations though instrument named the dust counter and mass analyzer ducma designed chicago university professor john simpson was added the soviet mission may the soviets answer halley were the vegas instead building entirely new craft for the mission the soviets decided modify their venera bus design encounter the comet while performing advanced venus mission along the way vega and reached venus the buses would drop off one lander balloon each and use the mass the shrouded planet swing them towards comet halley much the probe mariner used venus flyby mercury eleven years earlier the soviet craft would then head halley helping pinpoint the location the comet erupting nucleus for the giotto probe dive only kilometers miles away march planned the two vegas arrived venus june vega released its payload first the ninth day the month the lander making two day descent towards the planet the craft touched the upper atmosphere the morning june sixty one kilometers miles above the venerean surface small container was released the lander which produced parachute kilometers miles altitude thus the first balloon probe ever explore venus had successfully arrived one kilometer after the opening the parachute helium gas was pumped into the teflon coated plastic balloon inflating diameter meters feet dangling tether thirteen meters feet below was the instrument package properly known aerostat the top part the kilogram pound aerostat consisted cone which served antenna and tether attachment point the balloon beneath was the transmitter electronics and instruments connected the bottom was nephelometer for measuring cloud particles the aerostat was painted with special white finish keep bay the corroding mist sulfuric acid which permeated the planet atmosphere the vega balloon was dropped into the night side venus just north the equator scientists were concerned that the gas bag would burst the heat daylight they placed the darkened hemisphere give the craft much time possible return data this action necessitated that the landers come down the dark well effectively removing the camera systems used previous missions the author wonders though they could have used floodlights similar the ones attached venera and when soviet scientists had thought the planet surface was enshrouded perpetual twilight due the permanently thick cloud cover the first balloon transmitted for hours right into the day hemisphere before its lithium batteries failed covering kilometers miles the threat bursting the day heat did not materialize the vega balloon was stationed kilometer mile altitude after dropping ballast fifty kilometers thirty miles for this was considered the most active the three main cloud layers reported pioneer venus indeed the balloon was pushed across the planet speeds kilometers miles per hour strong vertical winds bobbed the craft and down two three hundred meters feet through most the journey the layer air temperature averaged forty degrees celsius degrees fahrenheit and pressure was mere earth atmosphere the nephelometer could find clear regions the surrounding clouds early the first balloon flight the vega lander was already headed towards the venerean surface both landers were equipped with soil drill and analyzer similar the ones carried venera and however vega would become unable report the composition the ground its landing site rusalka planitia the mermaid plain north aphrodite terra while still ten fifteen minutes away from landing timer malfunction caused the drill accidentally begin its programmed activity sixteen kilometers miles above the surface there was neither any way shut off the instrument before touchdown nor reactivate after landing this was unfortunate not only for the general loss data but also for the fact that most venus was covered with such smooth low level lava plains and had never before been directly examined nevertheless the surface temperature and pressure was calculated degrees celsius degrees fahrenheit and earth atmospheres respectively during the lander minutes ground transmissions large amount background infrared radiation was also recorded the site had been done when the drills and cameras venera and had failed december the soviets focused the data returned during the lander plunge through the atmosphere the french soviet malachite mass spectrometer detected sulfur chlorine and possibly phosphorus the sulfur possibly from active volcanoes which gives the venerean clouds their yellowish color the sigma gas chromatograph found that every cubic meter air between altitude and kilometers and miles contained one milligram grain sulfuric acid the vega data the overall structure the cloud decks appeared odds with the information from pioneer venus the case was made even stronger the fact that vega results nearly matched its twin the vegas found only two main cloud layers instead the three reported the probes the layers were three five kilometers miles thick altitudes and kilometers and miles the clouds persisted like thin fog until clearing altitude kilometers miles much lower than the readings one possibility for the discrepan cies may have been radical structural changes the venerean air over the last seven years when the lander and balloon finally went silent the last functioning part the vega mission the flyby bus sailed for million kilometer million mile journey around the sun become the first probe meet comet halley march the bus made kilometer mile pass the dark and icy visitor before traveling interplanetary space the soviets had accomplished their first mission two celestial bodies with one space vessel june vega released its lander balloon payload for two day fall towards venus like its duplicate the vega balloon radioed information back the twenty antennae tracking earth for hours before battery failure the morning side the planet during its kilometer mile flight over venus the second balloon entered rather still environment which became less twenty hours into the mission after hours mission time the air became even more turbulent for further eight hours when the balloon passed over five kilometer three mile mountain the continent aphrodite terra powerful downdraft pulled the craft kilometers miles towards the surface temperature sensors the vega balloon reported that the air layer was moving through was consistently degrees celsius degrees fahrenheit cooler than the area explored the vega balloon this was corroborated the vega lander passed through the balloon level positive indications lightning were made either balloon and the second aerostat nephelometer failed function the vega lander touched down the northern edge aphrodite terra western arm the fifteenth june kilometers miles southeast vega the lander resting place was smoother than thought indicating either very ancient and worn surface relatively young one covered fresh lava the soil drill was working order and reported rock type known anorthosite troctolite rare earth but present luna highlands this rock rich aluminum and silicon but lacking iron and magnesium high degree sulfur was also present the soil the air around vega measured degrees celsius degrees fahrenheit and earth atmospheres essentially typical day night venus far above the vega lander its carrier bus sped past venus distance kilometers miles and followed its twin comet halley making closer flyby march just kilometers miles both probes helped reveal that the comet very dark and irregular shaped mass about fourteen kilometers miles across rotating once every hours give take three hours since both vega craft were still functioning after their halley encounters soviet scientists considered option send the probes other celestial objects one prime target was the near earth planetoid adonis which vega could pass distance six million kilometers million miles sadly the soviets had back out the opportunity become the first nation fly spacecraft past planetoid when was discovered that there was not enough maneuvering fuel the probe reach adonis planned vega and were quietly shut down early future plans diverted the impressive vega mission had given some scientists numerous ideas and hope for even more ambitious expeditions the second world from the sun one example was the vesta mission planned for the early this soviet french collaboration called for the launch multiple probes single proton rocket either the craft would first swing venus and drop off several landers and balloon probes the aerostats would designed survive the planet corrosive atmosphere for one month large improvement over the vega balloons two days the mission would then head out investigate several planetoids and comets including possible landing vesta thus the mission name the most reflective main belt planetoid seen from earth unfortunately for venus exploration plans began change the soviet union the soviets decided reroute the vesta mission the red planet mars instead venus keeping the comet and planetoid aspects intact this time the soviet space program interest was focusing mars already under construction was entirely new probe design called phobos two members this class were planned leave earth and orbit mars the next year phobos and would then place the first instruments mars largest moon phobos all this was prelude even more advanced mars expeditions including balloon probes rovers soil sample return craft and eventually human explorers the early twenty first century the environment venus was just too hostile for any serious consideration human colonization the near future but things began look bleak for soviet venus and mars exploration both phobos probes failed complete their missions one losing contact the way the red planet and the other going silent mars orbit just one week before the planned moon landing march plan was devised for venus orbiter drop eight ten penetrators around the planet several years later the mission launch date was moved the year and has now been put indefinite hold other official soviet missions venus have since been put forth sad commentary after twenty five years continuous robotic exploration the planet during the late drastic political and economic change was taking over the soviet union president mikhail gorbachev began open his nation the benefits increased cooperation with the rest the nations particularly those the west while the culture became less oppressive than the past the economy was taking very rough ride also underwent the effects free market these effects hit everywhere including the space program missions all levels were cut back the soviets began making almost desperate attempts cooperate with other space faring nations either keep their remaining programs alive just make money early was reported that the soviets were offering for sale several fully equipped veneras they had storage for the price million dollars each incredibly low price for any planetary probe nation took them the bargain meanwhile the united states was gearing for new venus missions their own magellan and galileo the reactivated their long dormant planetary exploration with the launch the space shuttle atlantis may aboard the shuttle was the magellan spacecraft combination spare parts from other probes designed make the most detailed and complete radar mapping venus history when magellan reached the second world august would able map almost the entire planet down resolution meters feet surpassing the abilities venera and the interim another american probe was launched from space shuttle which would make quick flyby venus its way orbit the giant planet jupiter october the shuttle atlantis released its second unmanned planetary probe into space named galileo after the famous italian astronomer who discovered the probe primary target major moons the absence powerful enough booster send galileo direct flight the jovian planet the probe was sent around venus and earth several times build enough speed reach jupiter result venus became galileo first planetary goal february the probe radioed back images the planet swirling clouds and further indications lightning that violent atmosphere the drawing boards with the incredible success magellan the last few years new plans have been laid out for further journeys venus scien tists the have talked space scientists the former soviet union now the commonwealth independent states since january cooperative effort launch new venera lander missions within the next decade japan india and the esa have also considered their own venus missions the next few decades february nasa came with several new venus projects part their discovery program for launching inexpensive probes throughout the solar system for venus two missions were selected for further study venus multiprobe mission involving the landing fourteen small probes over one hemisphere measure winds air temperature and pressure and the venus composition probe designed study venus atmosphere while descending through the thick air with the aid parachute much the soviets had done since final project decisions will made humans venus will human ever able stand the surface venus present the lead melting temperatures and crushing air pressure would threatening any earth life not protected something even tougher than venera lander plans have been looked into changing the environment venus itself into something more like earth however should noted that any such undertaking will require the removal much the thick carbon dioxide atmosphere major reduction surface heat and the ability speed the planet rotation rate something bit faster than once every earth days such project may take centuries not millennia the meantime efforts should made better understand venus its exists today still have yet fully know how world seemingly similar earth many important ways became instead such deadly place will earth ever suffer this fate perhaps venus holds the answers such answers may best found through international cooperation including the nation which made the first attempts lift the cloudy veils from venus bibliography barsukov senior editor venus geology geochemistry and geophysics research results from the university arizona press tucson beatty kelly and andrew chaikin editors the new solar system cambridge university press and sky publishing corp cambridge massachusetts burgess eric venus errant twin columbia university press new york burrows william exploring space voyages the solar system and beyond random house inc new york chaisson eric and steve mcmillan astronomy today prentice hall inc englewood cliffs new jersey gatland kenneth the illustrated encyclopedia space technology salamander books new york greeley ronald planetary landscapes allen and unwin inc winchester massachusetts hart douglas the encyclopedia soviet spacecraft exeter books new york hartmann william moons and planets third edition wadsworth publishing company belmont california harvey brian race into space the soviet space programme ellis howood limited chichester england henbest nigel the planets portraits new worlds viking penguin books ltd harmondsworth middlesex england johnson nicholas soviet space programs volume science and technology series american astronautical society univelt inc san diego california johnson nicholas the soviet year space teledyne brown engineering colorado springs colorado lang kenneth and charles whitney wanderers space exploration and discovery the solar system cambridge university press new york magellan the unveiling venus jpl march murray bruce michael malin and ronald greeley earthlike planets surfaces mercury venus earth moon mars freeman and company san francisco california murray bruce journey into space the first three decades space exploration norton and company new york newcott william venus revealed national geographic magazine volume number washington february nicks oran far travelers the exploring machines nasa washington oberg james edward new earths restructuring earth and other planets meridian book new american library inc new york robertson donald venus prime soviet objective parts spaceflight volume numbers british interplanetary society bis london england may june smith arthur planetary exploration thirty years unmanned space probes patrick stephens ltd wellingborough northamp tonshire england voyage through the universe the near planets the editors time life books inc alexandria virginia wilson andrew jane solar system log jane publishing inc new york about the author larry klaes ejasa editor the recipient the asa meritorious service award for his work editor the ejasa since its founding august larry also teaches course basic astronomy the concord carlisle adult and community education program massachusetts larry the author the following ejasa articles the one dream man robert goddard rocket pioneer august stopping space and light pollution september the rocky soviet road mars october astronomy and the family may the soviets and venus part february the soviets and venus part march the electronic journal the astronomical society the atlantic april vol copyright asa
sci.space	command loss timer galileo update having read the past about the fail safe mechanisms spacecraft had assumed that the command loss timer had that sort function however always find disturbing the oxymoron command that does something the command changes the behavior status the spacecraft not command course this terminology comes from jet propulsion laboratory which has nothing with jet propulsion jim cobban jcobban bnr phone bnr ltd bnrgate bnr bcars jcobban fax
sci.space	surviving large accelerations amruth laxman andrew cmu edu writes humans and this was published have already withstood accelerations all this very long winded but here question finally are accelerations fact humanly tolerable with the aid any mechanical devices course lpham eis calstate edu lan pham writes are you sure the right number far know pilots are blackout dives that exceed seems out human tolerance would anybody clarify this please actually both numbers are correct the difference the direction the acceleration for pilots accelerations tend transverse the direction you facing pulling out from steep dive the acceleration will force blood toward your feet for instance this case you can only put with about even with pressure suit the record for acceleration though measured along the direction you facing for lack better term recall this record was set rocket sleds back the and was about eric seale seale pogo den mmc com
sci.space	space station redesign jsc alternative apr lerc nasa gov dbm lerc nasa gov david mckissock writes option low cost modular approach human tended capability opposed the old ssf sexist term man tended capability option space station freedom derived man tended capability griffin has not yet adopted non sexist language option single core launch station vote for anything where they don feel constrained use stupid and ugly phrases replace words like manned they think they need that they more than likely engaging politics and public relations usual rather than seriously wanting actually get into space that eliminates option from the running what they call manned station option actually about half serious about that people should more concerned with grammatical correctness and actually getting working station than they are with political correctness terminology insisting perfect safety for people who don have the balls live the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg com don speak for others and they don speak for
sci.space	surviving large accelerations lpham eis calstate edu lan pham writes answer amruth laxman are you sure the right number far know pilots are blackout dives that exceed seems out human tolerance would anybody clarify this please lan apart from the fact that you get the pull out not the dive that figure about right for sustained protection the duration rate onset body position and support aids are all critical parts the equation remember one note about instrumented gridiron players recording peaks about stapp the aviation doctor either accident design took short period rocket sled decelleration eye balls out against standard harness had short calculate the stopping time even from mph that bang seat can get about and you better sitting straight find the book martin bakers human guinea pig hear how bad can get the rate onset too high reclining position and good suit can keep pilot functioning around flotation tank should good bet since you can treat the body fluid and high pressure situations are not new anyone have any figures ray fairfield fairfiel zeus usq edu
sci.space	historic shuttle flights would someone please send list the historic space flights not looking for list all flights just the ones which something monumental happened better yet there ftp site with the list all shuttle flights thanks you helped vamwendt upei
sci.space	gamma ray bursters where are they article steinly apr topaz ucsc edu steinly topaz ucsc edu steinn sigurdsson writes article radsr att access digex net prb access digex com pat writes what evidence indicates that gamma ray bursters are very far away their distribution very isotropic and the intensity distribution crudely speaking indicates seeing edge the distribution how can you tell the difference between intensity distribution which due edge the spatial distribution and intensity distribution which due sharp dropoff intrinsic luminosities below certain threshold could you describe roughly what the intensity distribution like
sci.space	rocket launch observed bright light phenomenon was observed the eastern finland april two people saw bright luminous pillar shaped phenomenon the low eastern horizont near mikkeli the head the pillar was circular the lower part was little winding was like monster they told they were little frightened soon the yellowish pillar became enlarged bright spot like the sun was appeared the middle the phenomenon last the light landed behind the nearby forest now there was only luminous trails the sky which were visible till morning sunrise the same phenomenon was observed also jaakko kokkonen lappeenranta saw luminous yellowish trail the low northeastern horizont the altitude the trail was only about degrees soon the trail began grow taller loop was appeared the head the trail was like spoon this lasted only seconds now the altitude was about five degress above horizont noted bright spot the upper stage loop the spot was magnitude the loop became enlarged and the spot was now visible the middle the loop cartwheel shaped trail was appeared round the bright spot after minute the spot disappeared and only fuzzy trails were only visible the low horizont luminous trails were still visible the morning sky the phenomenon was caused russian rocket don know there were satellite launches plesetsk cosmodrome near arkhangelsk but this may rocket experiment too since have observed over rocket phenomena finland most these are rocket experiments military missile tests barium experiments and other chemical releases during these years have observed satellite launches leo wikholm ursa astronomical association phone satellite and rocket phenomena sect fax laivanvarustajankatu bbs fin helsinki inter leo wikholm compart finland
sci.space	solid state tube analog davis nicoll sez hmmm seem recall that the attraction solid state record players and radios the wasn better performance but lower per unit cost than vacuum tube systems buy that for two reasons the tubes for and radios you can still find them are usually more expensive than comparable transistors also ask any electric guitar enthusiast which type amp they prefer and they tell you tube type since tubes have lower distortion and noise than transistors course most your electric guitar types just say tubes sound better dude also transistors have the advantage both waste heat and energy use mainly because the heaters the cathodes the tubes tommy mac tom mcwilliams the radius vision increases ibm msu edu the circumference mystery grows
sci.space	gamma ray bursters where are they article apr midway uchicago edu pef quads uchicago edu enrico palazzo writes from graydon saundrsg qucdn queensu all these things have been detected space has anyone looked into possible problems with the detectors that there some mechanism cosmic rays whatever that could cause the dector think was seeing one these things graydon that would not explain why widely separated detectors such ulysses and pvo and ginga would see burst the same time fact fore batse having this widely separated interplanetary network was the only sure way locate random burst with only one detector one cannot locate burst except say somewhere the field view with two detectors one can use the time that the burst seen each detector narrow the location thin annulus the sky with three detectors one gets intersecting annuli giving two possible locations one these locations impossible because say the earth blocked that part the sky voila you have error box batse having detectors its own can its own location determination but only within about degrees would someone gsfc like david like comment the current state location determination having inde pendent sightings other detectors helps drive down the uncertainty you did touch something that you didn mean though some believe reference that have somewhere that absorption like features seen fraction grbs can actually caused the detector would mean nasty god though that would have nai crystal act like gauss neutron star but this getting too far afield peter peterf oddjob uchicago edu all this very valid and very true but add this explaniation each individual detector also has built fail safe just the detector does not read the background radiation cosmic rays remember right the detectors off about sigma above the background this they don catch particularly energetic cosmic rays that would normally set off even with this buffer they still have throw out something like the bursts that they get because the earth van allen belts the south atlantic anomaly the sun remember right there either radar station radio station australia and there are couple other sources well jeremy belgarath vax mankato msus edu
sci.space	new planet kuiper object found james nicoll writes the new kuiper belt object called karla the next one should called smiley the previous one was called smiley smiley and karla note that neither name official seems the discoverers have aversion the designation scheme the way can never known smiley officially because that moniker has already been assigned asteroid number
sci.space	kupier object smiley james nicholl sez the new kuiper belt object called karla the next one should called smiley jeff responds unless imaging things always possibility the kuiper belt object discovered last year known smiley jeff foust days you from outer space senior planetary science caltech from iowa only work jafoust cco caltech edu outer space jeff scn jpl nasa gov from star trek the voyage home wouldn worry too much about jeff you work for jpl then your job imaging things know was just typo but couldn resist least hope was typo stupid joke stupider than intended tommy mac tom mcwilliams the radius vision increases ibm msu edu the circumference mystery grows
sci.space	billboards space from phil fraering pgf srl cacs usl edu finally this isn the bronze age please try remember that there are more human activities than those practiced the warrior caste the farming caste and the priesthood baube responds right the profiting caste blessed god and may freely blare its presence the evening twilight steinn sez the priesthood has never quite forgiven the merchants aka profiting caste sic for their rise power has are looking for evidence belessed god ness say the ability blare lights all over the evening sky about the best evidence you could ever hope get wonder the preistly classes are upset tommy mac tom mcwilliams the radius vision increases ibm msu edu the circumference mystery grows
sci.space	gamma ray bursters how energetic could they article rgvjsinnbhq senator bedfellow mit edu jfc athena mit edu john carr writes gamma ray bursters are extragalactic would absorption from the galaxy expected how transparent the galactic core gamma rays how much energy does burster put out know energy depends distance which unknown answer the form ergs per megaparsec john carr jfc athena mit edu had turn one problem sets that did class for this little problem don have calculator but have the problem set that did not too long ago use that and hope what you wanted this highly simplified problem with very simple burst bursts are usually more complex than this example will use here our burst has peak flux ergs sec and duration seconds during the frst second the burst and the last seconds its flux half the peak flux flux the peak flux the rest the time assume that the background flux erg sec then had find the integrated luminosity the burst for several different spheres oort cloud radius the edge the galaxy the edge the galactic corona and lastly mpc integrated the flux over all time find the fluence then used the old standby formula luminosity fpeak for radius found around erg sec pretty energetic for close for the coronal model found around erg sec and lastly for the cosmological model that what you call moderately energetic say any suggestions about what could put out that much energy one second jeremy
sci.space	vandalizing the sky sichase csa lbl gov scott chase writes article pgf srl cacs usl edu pgf srl cacs usl edu phil fraering writes jeff cook ftcollinsco ncr com jeff cook writes people primitive tribes out the middle nowhere they look and see can budweiser flying across the sky seen that movie already one just like come think they might send someone quest get rid the dang thing actually the idea like most good ideas comes from jules verne not like most good ideas please people the gods must crazy one his lesser known books can remember which one right now the protagonists are balloon gondola travelling over africa their way around the world the balloon five weeks balloon not good idea unless you have helium verne protagonists didn they just got increadibly lucky and yes knew the title the movie too just didn want start talking about except bring the image team african bushmen showing launch site with spears and flint knives stop the launch anyone want bet their success doing especially since they could probably stop shuttle launch sneezing too hard within couple miles the launch site phil fraering seems like every day find out all sorts stuff pgf srl cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man
sci.space	gamma ray bursters where are they belgarath vax mankato msus edu writes catalog these tests all show that the bursts have isotropic distribution evenly spread out radial direction and they show signs homogeneity they not clump any one direction unless are sampling the area inside the disk the galaxy are sampling the universe not cool you want figure out what the hell caused these things now suppose you are saying well stil only may sampling from inside the disk well not necessarily remember have what more less interplanetary network burst detectors with baseline that goes waaaay out beyond pluto pioneer should able with all our detectors tect some sort difference angle from satellite satellite here analogy you see plane overhead you measure the angle the plane from the origin your arbitrary coordinate system one your friends mile away sees the same plane and measures the angle from the zero point his arbitrary system which the same yours the two angles are different and you should able triangulate the position your burst and maybe find source knowledge one has been able this these burst detectors are just that burst detectors they have angular resolution now network burst detectors could have angular resolution but not have decent set different networks the distances neccesary from each other determine they happening the oort cloud not have one network and trying make two networks out degrades what angular resolution have phil fraering seems like every day find out all sorts stuff pgf srl cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man
sci.space	update back the moon bill introducing the back the moon congress the next step the next key hurdle for the lunar resources data purchase act introduction the act congress this point many congresspersons have been approached about the bill however for successful effort pass the bill need the best possible congressperson introduce the bill due his position chair the house committee space and science congressman george brown the logical choice has long record support and interest space development and helped pass the launch services purchase act and the space settlements act there small group activists southern california who have assisted george brown his recent election campaigns are mobilizing this group have them tell congressman brown about the back the moon bill are also asking pro space constituents let him know that they care about getting america back the moon finally there good chance that nationwide alert for space activists call write george brown have him introduce the back the moon bill may staged during late spring all this should produce positive reaction from brown office more known will passed however even are successful getting him support the bill this alone will not ensure passage the bill for any bill become law one three conditions must exist either the bill must reflect widespread national support for issue such extension unemployment insurance benefits propelled high priced lobbyists out luck there have widespread support within congress due small but widespread constituent support the latter the path that necessity must choose this means that the introduction the lunar resources data purchase act must immediately accompanied large number congresspersons sponsorship the bill accomplish this need activists ask their congressperson support the lunar resources data purchase act now wait until the bill introduced simply too late takes time have congressperson staff review bill your congressperson mentions that the bill not yet introduced please elicit their opinion the bill currently written appreciate all comments the bill from activists and politicians you have yet see the back the moon bill please request copy email please include your postal service address contact your local chapter the national space society maximus
sci.space	surviving large accelerations article fairfiel helios fairfiel helios usq edu raymond fairfield writes lpham eis calstate edu lan pham writes answer amruth laxman are you sure the right number far know pilots are blackout dives that exceed seems out human tolerance would anybody clarify this please lan apart from the fact that you get the pull out not the dive that figure about right for sustained protection the duration rate onset body position and support aids are all critical parts the equation remember one note about instrumented gridiron players recording peaks about stapp the aviation doctor either accident design took short period rocket sled decelleration eye balls out against standard harness had short calculate the stopping time even from mph that bang seat can get about and you better sitting straight find the book martin bakers human guinea pig hear how bad can get the rate onset too high reclining position and good suit can keep pilot functioning around flotation tank should good bet since you can treat the body fluid and high pressure situations are not new anyone have any figures ray fairfield fairfiel zeus usq edu yes flotation tank combined with floride breathing water ref the abyss breathing solution think also the right position the astronaut and strapping you can probably get much more than accesloration more like near somewhat less saw book called the time master thjink that was the title that had some ideas how fast and all you could michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu not high just jacked
sci.space	long term space voyanges and effect newsgroup know that alot how people think and act long distance space project would much like old tiem explorers sailors hunters and such who spent alot time alone isolated and alone minimal surroundings and sopcial contacts such the old arctic and antarctic expeditions and such vote for later sci space medicine similar newsgroup fro the discussion long term missions into space and there affects humans and such michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu not high just jacked
sci.space	true globe who makes bill xpresso uucp bill vance writes has been known for quite while that the earth actually more pear shaped than globular spherical does anyone make globe that accurate actual shape landmass configuration long lat lines etc thanks advance even they did globe scale that you could fit into your average room even average hall the deviations you mention would not visually evident other words micrometer would required test the fact that the globe was infact pear shaped regards scott scott fisher scott psy uwa aus perth local department psychology university western australia perth nedlands perth error reboot registered trademark ensoniq corp
sci.space	vandalizing the sky hathaway comments like add that some the protests not come from strictly practical consideration what pollution levels are acceptable for research activities professional astronomers some what would complain about rooted aesthetics many readers may never have known time where the heavens were pristine sacred unsullied the actions humans the space between the stars profoundly black abyss can with full horizons and pure sky one could look out upon half all creation time none which had any connection with the petty matters man any lights were supplied solely nature uncorruptable men whole religions were based mortal man somehow getting there and becoming immortal the stars whether apotheosis belief afterlife the space age changed all that more man effect the environment but there still this desire see place that man hasn fouled some way think point about desire for beauty valid even can ever perfectly achieved agree that the desire for beauty valid but think your desire impose your vision beauty not you mention the age old desire somehow get there but ignore the beauty the actual achievment that vision you mention the beauty very dark sky not impeded the effects humans but ignore the beauty the dark can sky that only visible from space vision that least our descendents may one day able see part because efforts that others call ugly one day hope humans will able look out not upon half the heavens with only nature creted lights but upon all the heavens with lights advertising space can help reach that goal less beautiful for the way reach than the pristine sky yesteryear yester century which totally unreachable one the original conceptions beauty wetsern sculpture was human form the effort striving reach goal don think there any reason believe that modernity has changed that just because has changed the way strive btw there are places that people haven fouled sometimes they make better tommy mac tom mcwilliams the radius vision increases ibm msu edu the circumference mystery grows
sci.space	new planet kuiper object found tholen galileo ifa hawaii edu dave tholen writes james nicoll writes the new kuiper belt object called karla the next one should called smiley the previous one was called smiley smiley and karla the way can never known smiley officially because that moniker has already been assigned asteroid number could someone explain where these names come from sure there perfectly good reason name planetoid smiley but equally sure that don know what that reason josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu find way make one attributed hannibal
sci.space	vandalizing the sky news cso uiuc edu george krumins writes was suggesting that the minority professional and amateur astronomers have the right dark uncluttered night sky sorry you have wish for uncluttered night sky but isn right when you get down you actually have rights that the majority haven agreed give you and them the process common misconception that being born somehow endows you with rights this that and the other sadly this not true now you want talk about the responsibility that should with the power clutter the night sky then that different matter greg nicholls vidi nicho vnet ibm com vici nicho olympus demon veni
sci.space	france spied the young french skeptic who reads skeptically the ufo review ovni presence sent the following excerpt from august issue this review robert galley french minister defense answering about the belgian ufo wave can you conceive that the could allow themselves send their most modern crafts over foreign territory with the belgian hierarchy ignoring that absolutely the best proof which can give that some time ago without informing the french authorities the based germany sent plane make photos pierrelatte followed this plane and after its landing the ramstein airport colonel got back the shots pierrelatte the had not informed there important military plant enrichment uranium pierrelatte drome what kind plane could surely not which our planes could not follow and still can pharabod
sci.space	ranking space mailing list about three weeks ago the space list someone was quoting source the relative traffic and rankings this listserv figure traffic was given unfortunately did not clip the message and would like know the source the rankings list anybody still has that discussion their disk knows the source the poster himself appreciate getting that reference being the road have temporarily unsubscribed the list cut down mail box stuffing please reply via mail lek aip org compuserve com won get your answer larry krumenaker odyssey magazine
sci.space	hst servicing mission scheduled for days boosting the hst carrying with shuttle would not damage then why couldn hst brought back earth and the repair job done here because two shuttle flights would required adding the alredy horrendous expense gruss bruce scott the deadliest bullshit max planck institut fuer plasmaphysik odorless and transparent bds spl aug ipp garching mpg gibson the opinions expressed are not necessarily those the university north carolina chapel hill the campus office for information technology the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu
sci.space	mcelwaine secret messages robert macelwaine sez again larsonian astronomy and physics etc got actually these message macelwaine are coded messages read only the caps and all comes clear are few more types anti matter atoms worth the billion cost don have much more important uses for this wasted money another thing consider that the primary proposed location texas has serious and growing problem with some kind fire ants eating the insulation off underground cables how much poisoning the ground and ground water with insecticides will required keep the ants out the supercollider naming the super collider after ronald reagon proposed totally absurd built should named after leading particle physicist maybe message telling what actually happened the legendary larson perhaps warning that one should not expend too much effort trying counter macelwaine postings who can sure tommy mac tom mcwilliams they communicated with the communists ibm msu edu and pacified the pacifists timbuk
sci.space	lindbergh and the moon was why not give article kxf news cso uiuc edu jbh uxa cso uiuc edu josh hopkins writes voyages discovery could you give examples privately funded ones you believe the film columbus had substantial private funds when columbus asked the merchant why put the money the guy said slightly paraphrased there faith hope and charity but greater than these banking gregory bond gnb bby com burdett buckeridge young ltd melbourne australia knox slick fox sox knox box knox box very quick plays lots lsl sick apologies john iron bar mackin
sci.space	death and taxes was why not give billion article apr indyvax iupui edu tffreeba indyvax iupui edu writes how about this give the winning group can see one company corp doing year moratorium taxes you are talking about the bozos who can even manage november keep promises about taxes made october and you expect them make and keep year promise like that your faith the political system much higher than mine wouldn even begin expect that australia and don have institutionalised corruption like you gregory bond gnb bby com burdett buckeridge young ltd melbourne australia knox slick fox sox knox box knox box very quick plays lots lsl sick apologies john iron bar mackin
sci.space	death and taxes was why not give billion apr bby com gregory bond writes wouldn even begin expect that australia and don have institutionalised corruption like you wanna bet you must too young remember bob askin read the costigan commision report you want know about corruption greg nicholls vidi nicho vnet ibm com vici nicho olympus demon veni
sci.space	what planets are habitable would appreciate any thoughts what makes planet habitable for humans making asumptions that life and similar atmosphere evolve given range physical aspects the planet the question what physical aspects simply disallow earth like conditions temperature range where temp purely dependant dist from the sun and the suns temperature atmospheric presure know nothing human tolerance planetary mass again gravity surface important how much can human bodies take day after day also how does the mass effect atmosphere thinking planets between and times mass the earth suppose density should important well climate etc does not concern nor does axial tilt etc etc just the above three factors and how they relate one another jonathan with fearsome eyes and fiery breath the dragon burnt the girl death from too late saint george
sci.space	gamma ray bursters where are they apr gmt jfc athena mit edu john carr said jfc gamma ray bursters are extragalactic would absorption from the jfc galaxy expected how transparent the galactic core gamma jfc rays and later jim batka jbatka desire wright edu said the law incorrect assume some unknown material dark matter inhibits gamma ray propagation could possible that are actually seeing much less energetic events happening much closer the even distribution could caused the characteristic propagation distance gamma rays being shorter then the thickness the disk the galaxy well maybe not zero but very little the typical energies for gamma rays the galaxy effectively transparent hans bloemen had review article ann rev astr astrophys few years back which discusses this more depth mail lazio astrosun cornell edu joseph lazio phone icbm deg deg cornell knows exist stop rape
sci.space	gamma ray bursters where are they article rbl einnip gap caltech edu palmer cco caltech edu david palmer writes prb access digex com pat writes what evidence indicates that gamma ray bursters are very far away given the enormous power was just wondering what they are quantum black holes something like that fairly close why would they have galactic ranges david gives good explaination the deductions from the isotropic edged distribution whit they are either part the universe part the oort cloud why couldn they earth centred with the edge occuring the edge the gravisphere know there isn any mechanism for them but there isn mechanism for the others either keith harwood
sci.space	what planets are habitable article jpg apr holly bnr jpg bnr jonathan gibbons writes would appreciate any thoughts what makes planet habitable for humans making asumptions that life and similar atmosphere evolve given range physical aspects the planet the question what physical aspects simply disallow earth like conditions temperature range where temp purely dependant dist from the sun and the suns temperature atmospheric presure know nothing human tolerance planetary mass again gravity surface important how much can human bodies take day after day also how does the mass effect atmosphere thinking planets between and times mass the earth suppose density should important well climate etc does not concern nor does axial tilt etc etc just the above three factors and how they relate one another dandridge cole and isaac asimov collaborated book titled habitable planets for man think should available most good libraries through inter library loan answered the questions you ask speculatively course along with many more that need considered habitability studies length day for day night temperature variation and agricultural concerns partial pressures certain unexpected gasses ever hear xenon narcosis neither did density particulates the atm and their composition ever hear silicosis not much fun etc climate isn global phenomenon and probably needn concern you but axial tilt ought plays large part determining the severity seasonal differences and lesser but still significant part determining the speed prevailing winds doug loss loss husky bloomu edu
sci.space	what planets are habitable article iyd ece cmu edu loss ece cmu edu doug loss writes from loss ece cmu edu doug loss subject what planets are habitable date tue apr gmt article jpg apr holly bnr jpg bnr jonathan gibbons writes would appreciate any thoughts what makes planet habitable for humans making asumptions that life and similar atmosphere evolve given range physical aspects the planet the question what physical aspects simply disallow earth like conditions temperature range where temp purely dependant dist from the sun and the suns temperature atmospheric presure know nothing human tolerance there are people who have adapted high altitudes the andes and tibet suspect that took them several generations make the adaptation because europeans had difficulty making the adaptation they had send the women lower altitude when they were pregnant order insure sucessful childbirth planetary mass again gravity surface important how much can human bodies take day after day also how does the mass effect atmosphere thinking planets between and times mass the earth suppose density should important well another factor you should consider the ray opacity the atmosphere case stellar flares the opacity also important because radiation can kill damage microbes plants and animals climate etc does not concern nor does axial tilt etc etc just the above three factors and how they relate one another
sci.space	report redesign team the following what they feed most has been posted already but there are number items not seen here yet redesign activities update following the weekly status redesign based information provided nasa headquarters the station redesign team srt provided detailed status report the advisory committee the redesign the space station april the day long meeting was held anser facilities crystal city topics covered the srt included preliminary mission and goals statement for the space station science technology and engineering research the assessment process and the design approach discussions management options and operations concepts also were held the design teams then presented the three options under study option modular buildup pete priest presented the option priest said the team working define station that meets cost goals and has identified three distinct phases evolution power station human tended and permanent presence the team will define the minimum capability needed achieve each phase the total cost each phase and the achievable capability for budget levels the option uses current simplified freedom hardware where cost effective and considering other existing systems such the called bus spacecraft the orbiter and spacelab the power station capability could achieved flights with freedom photo voltaic modules providing power day shuttle spacelab missions docked the power station are assumed for this phase human tended capability would provided the addition the common module module which adds subsystems and payload racks and docking ports for esa and japanese laboratories day missions with the orbiter docked the station are assumed for this phase different operation utilization modes are being studied for this phase option freedom derived mike griffin presented the status option activities griffin detailed the evolution the freedom derived option from initial research capability human tended capability permanent human presence capability two fault tolerance and finally permanent human capability griffin also outlined proposed systems changes the baseline program with minor changes the communications and tracking system crew health care system and eclss and major change the data management system initial research capability would achieved with flights degree inclination flights degrees and consist extended duration orbiter spacelab combination docked truss segment with photo voltaic arrays providing power human tended capability would achieved flights and add truss segments and the lab permanent human presence capability would achieved flights with two orbiters providing habitation and assured crew return two fault tolerance achieved flights would build out the other section truss with another set modules thermal control and propulsion systems the freedom derived configuration could achieve international complete state with flights three more flights bring the habitat module third array and two assured crew return vehicles acrv would complete the permanent human capability with international stage griffin told the redesign advisory committee that eliminating hardware would not itself meet budget guidelines for the freedom derived option major reductions deferrals must occur other areas including program management contractor non hardware early utilization and operations costs said option singe launch core station chet vaughn presented option the single launch core station concept shuttle external tank and solid rocket boosters would used launch the station into orbit shuttle main engines would mounted the tail the station module for launch and jettisoned after separation the module feet diameter and feet long would provide cubic feet pressured volume separated into decks connected centralized passageway seven berthing ports would located various places the circumference the module place the international modules and other elements this can would have two fixed photo voltaic arrays producing approximately power flying solar interial attitude his closing comments the redesign advisory committee bryan connor said design freeze would established for the options april that detailed costing the options can begin the next meeting with the redesign advisory committee will may russian consultants arrive delegation russian space experts arrived the april and briefings the srt members the russian team began the the group includes russian space agency general director koptev and yatsenko also the rsa others the team include representatives from the ministry defense the design bureau salyut the institute biomedical problems the ministry foreign affairs npo energia and tsnijmash the russian team briefed the srt environmental control and life support system docking systems the proton launch vehicle mir operations and utilization and the soyuz spacecraft the russian consultants are available the srt assess the capabilities the mir space station and the possible use mir and other russian capabilities and systems part the space station redesign they will available the srt through may management and operations review continues work continued the srt subgroups the management group under walt brooks working develop family options that solve the current problems and build foundation for the transition development and operations various management options have been developed including lead center with the center director the programmatic chain command host center with the program manager reporting directly associate administrator skunk works dedicated program office with small dedicated located hand picked program office combine space station with shuttle with the space station becoming element the current program major tune current organization with current contracts and geographical distribution maintained but streamlined the operations group under john cox building the work the operations phase assessment team lead gene kranz nasa jsc which had already begun comprehensive review operations and had concluded its preliminary results that significant cost reductions are possible part its work the operations group has identified teams agency experts develop detailed evaluations each design the areas assembly and operations utilization maintenance and logistics and testing and ground operations what the week ahead the design support teams will provide comprehensive status their option the station redesign team monday and tuesday which point the design will frozen begin the detailed cost assessment also this week the team will begin preparing for the next round discussions with the redesign advisory committee held may shea steps down joe shea stepped down director the station redesign team april and bryan connor will take over the activities the team shea submitted his resignation assistant deputy administrator for space station analysis but will continue serve special advisory nasa administrator goldin and available consult with the srt goldin accepted the resignation that request from shea reduce his workload could accommodated key milestones the key dates for the srt they are currently being carried the schedule are april design freeze options for costing april design support team present selected options srt may status report redesign advisory committee may interim report redesign advisory committee june final report redesign advisory committee oct cancellation just opinion
sci.space	new planet kuiper object found article news cso uiuc edu jbh uxa cso uiuc edu josh hopkins writes could someone explain where these names come from sure there perfectly good reason name planetoid smiley but equally sure that don know what that reason read john carre tinker tailor soldier spy the honorable schoolboy smiley people jan
sci.space	death and taxes was why not give billion article apr bby com gnb baby bby com gregory bond writes article apr indyvax iupui edu tffreeba indyvax iupui edu writes how about this give the winning group can see one company corp doing year moratorium taxes you are talking about the bozos who can even manage november keep promises about taxes made october and you expect them make and keep year promise like that want give lawyers something the cen don your faith the political system much higher than mine wouldn even begin expect that australia and don have institutionalised corruption like you bet you they are probably just better than our crooks gregory bond gnb bby com burdett buckeridge young ltd melbourne australia knox slick fox sox knox box knox box very quick plays lots lsl sick apologies john iron bar mackin tom freebairn came saw went home some early cen baseball player anybody know who why definitly mail stuff
sci.space	solid state tube analog article cmu edu msu edu tom writes also ask any electric guitar enthusiast which type amp they prefer and they tell you tube type since tubes have lower distortion and noise than transistors course most your electric guitar types just say tubes sound better dude course they then turn the reverb the gain add the analog delay line and the fuzz box think they wouldn notice the distortion forgot the phase shifters also transistors have the advantage both waste heat and energy use mainly because the heaters the cathodes the tubes but how they compare mechanical systems pat
sci.space	vandalizing the sky nicho vnet ibm com greg stewart nicholls writes news cso uiuc edu george krumins writes was suggesting that the minority professional and amateur astronomers have the right dark uncluttered night sky sorry you have wish for uncluttered night sky but isn right when you get down you actually have rights that the majority haven agreed give you and them the process common misconception that being born somehow endows you with rights this that and the other sadly this not true now you want talk about the responsibility that should with the power clutter the night sky then that different matter greg nicholls vidi nicho vnet ibm com vici nicho olympus demon veni according this reasoning there are rights least none that can think let see have right unpolluted air because the majority drive cars and use goods that create air pollution the manufacturing process have the right clean water guess not the same reasoning could with these examples for long time look nazi germany because the majority jews homosexuals blacks and others that were different had rights fact they were terrorized imprisoned and slaughtered this country did blacks have the right free from slavery guess not because the majority said that slavery was good for them think that right has moral imperative law imposed the majority immoral one should not follow fact one should everything his her power stop course that doesn mean that would lose all common sense break the law just because thought was immoral pay federal income tax even though morally opposed the government taking money and spending weapons mass destruction and terrorism this precisely the point trying make should persude people logic pointing out that their self interest let all have equal rights all aspects life including adequate housing food and medical care just happen think that for full life the aesthetic beauty and joy also necessary that why consider uncluttered night sky right have you ever been out the desert away from local lights and most people the sky dark and transparent the milky way ablaze with more detail than you thought possible the beauty and wonder takes your breath away now imagine you live the worst ghetto say due light pollution you have never seen dark sky you might fact never not your whole life ever see the majesty the night sky every where around you you see squalor and through your life runs thread dispair what there live for admit these two scenarios are extreme examples but have seen both for one need dreams and hopes and yes beauty reason for living that why consider uncluttered night sky right george george krumins the serpent and the rainbow gfk uxa cso uiuc edu pufferfish observatory
sci.space	hst servicing mission scheduled for days article apr samba oit unc edu bruce scott launchpad unc edu bruce scott writes boosting the hst carrying with shuttle would not damage then why couldn hst brought back earth and the repair job done here reboost may not problem they have enough fuel they don reboost this time they will definitely have one the next servicing mission but try land shuttle with that big huge telescope the back and you could have problems the shuttle just isn designed land with that much weight the payload because two shuttle flights would required adding the alredy horrendous expense course that concern too and the loss science during the time that the ground plus fear that comes down some big wig might not allow back but the main concern believe the danger the landing just add another bad vibe they also increase the risk damaging instrument finally this chance for nasa astronanuts prove they could build and service space station hubble was designed for flight servicing bringing the telescope down understanding was considered even very recently but all these factors contribute the decision the way was planned the beginning gruss bruce scott the deadliest bullshit max planck institut fuer plasmaphysik odorless and transparent bds spl aug ipp garching mpg gibson rob rob douglas space san martin drive software engineer telescope baltimore usa advance planning systems branch science phone internet rdouglas stsci edu institute fax disclaimer type thingie these opinions are mine unless course they fall under the standard intellectual property guidelines but with intellect doubt besides was useful intellectual property you think would type here rob douglas space san martin drive software engineer telescope baltimore usa advance planning systems branch science phone
sci.space	vandalizing the sky newsgroups sci astro sci space subject vandalizing the sky apologies this post submitted friday but got message that post might not have gone out considering the confusing spitting contest over rights there are too inalienable rights damn the majority can just destructive liberty despot suspect that post did not get out site ain saying that dark skies are included these rights although can only preserve any rights exercising them anyway here are thoughts this like add that some the protests not come from strictly practical consideration what pollution levels are acceptable for research activities professional astronomers some what would complain about rooted aesthetics many readers may never have known time where the heavens were pristine sacred unsullied the actions humans the space between the stars profoundly black abyss can with full horizons and pure sky one could look out upon half all creation time none which had any connection with the petty matters man any lights were supplied solely nature uncorruptable men whole religions were based mortal man somehow getting there and becoming immortal the stars whether apotheosis belief afterlife the space age changed all that the effect the first sputniks and echo etc this view could only happen once see light crossing the night sky and know was put there puny people still impressive and the sense size one gets assimilating the scales involved also awesome even the few hundreds thousands miles involved still dwarfed the rest the universe but there still hunger for the pure beauty virgin sky yes know aircraft are almost always sight have live very populated area miles from international airport currently where light pollution the ground ghastly the impact humans extreme here virtually place exists that has not been shaped sculpted modified trashed whipped into shape the hands man some places the only life forms larger than bacteria are humans cockroaches and squirrels rats visited some friends the appalacian mountains one weekend getting away from all paved roads indoor plumbing malls and felt good for while then quickly noticed the hollow was directly under the main flight path into dulles miles the east their security light didn help matters much either but heard the artic wilderness gets lots high air traffic know the skies are rarely perfect but there still this desire see place that man hasn fouled some way mean they been trying this forever like concerning tesla idea banish night wow don watch commercial television but can imagine just how disgusting beer truck hemmorrhoid ointment advertisements would seen high gotta make buck displaying products heaven least consider the reactions from those for whom the sky last beautiful refuge from the baseness modern life open about this though have here listing the passage hst the evening sky for this weekend tonight friday edt will reach altitude degrees the local meridian from baltimore vicinity trying see can mealticket after all suppose could called elitist for supporting this intrusion the night sky while complaining about billboards proposed others that may think point about desire for beauty valid even can ever perfectly achieved regards hathaway baltimore added tuesday this again not rights reality tome just warning that someone into destroying beauty had better know that other people may not accept without complaint
sci.space	command loss timer galileo update article apr bnr jcobban bnr jim cobban writes having read the past about the fail safe mechanisms spacecraft had assumed that the command loss timer had that sort function however always find disturbing the oxymoron command that does something the command changes the behavior status the spacecraft not command using your argument the noop operation computer isn noop since causes the incremented course this terminology comes from jet propulsion laboratory which has nothing with jet propulsion course the complaint comes from someone who hasn clue what talking about carl lydick internet carl sol gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol carl disclaimer hey understand vaxen and vms that what get paid for understanding astronomy purely the amateur level below unless what saying directly related vax vms don hold organization responsible for related vax vms you can try hold responsible for but organization had nothing with
sci.space	hst servicing mission scheduled for days article apr samba oit unc edu bruce scott launchpad unc edu bruce scott writes boosting the hst carrying with shuttle would not damage then why couldn hst brought back earth and the repair job done here the forces and accelerations involved doing little bit orbital maneuvering with hst aboard are much smaller than those involved reentry landing and launch the oms engines aren very powerful they don have svr resembles high speed collision henry spencer toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	long term space voyanges and effect newsgroup article apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes vote for later sci space medicine similar newsgroup fro the discussion long term missions into space and there affects humans and such why bother with new newsgroup you want discuss the subject start discussing there enough traffic annoy the rest will let you know and then will time for new newsgroup svr resembles high speed collision henry spencer toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	what counntries space surveillance article cpva saic com thomsonal cpva saic com writes stuff deleted this leads the more general question yet other people than the russia and japan space surveillance and how and why allen thomson saic mclean usa the french spot example that comes mind although the company name escapes the moment sells images world wide you can bet your last dollar franc that the french gov gets first dibs remember few years ago about the time spot was launched was speaking dad usaf officer about this and that and happend mention spot think were talking about technology utilization just about went ballistic wanted know how knew about spot and just what knew guess that space surveillance such sensitive topic the air force that couldn believe that would read about such system the popular press week mark mark littlefield intelligent systems department internet mll aio jsc nasa gov ussnail lockheed engineering and sciences nasa houston
sci.space	tsniimach enterprise from wales larrison ofa fidonet org commercial space news space technology investor number another pegasus competitor announced tsniimach enterprise described military establishment focusing aerodynamics and thermal protection spacecraft and which has participated the development the buran shuttle system they are located near the npo energia facility kaliningrad outside moscow this facility kaliningrad this not near moscow fact the east prussian konigsberg now russian enclave the baltic coast served ships and rail and the intrepid traveller europe would find accessible and might even want try arrange tour fred baube times intellectual ferment baube optiplan advantage him with the intellect include disclaimer most fermented may paris retrospective time quite glad that couple people stated quite eloquently the aesthetic natural objections the space billboard
sci.space	vandalizing the sky didn want quote all the stuff that been said recently just wanted add point the whole question right dark sky revolves around the definition right moral rights and natural rights are all well and good but far can see right whatever you someone representing you can enforce most civilizations the government the church both defines what the rights the citizens are and then enforces those rights for them here the the constitution provides bill rights from which most not all legal rights are considered derive sure that most other countries have comparable documents you can persuade court that you have right dark sky derived some manner from the bill rights the you can prevent maybe these billboards from being launched keep anyone the world from launching then gets into international law and the international court justice correct name the hague something know little about doug loss loss husky bloomu edu
sci.space	vandalizing the sky space digest hathaway stsci edu writes about the protests over proposals put giant billboard into orbit like add that some the protests not come from strictly practical consideration what pollution levels are acceptable for research activities professional astronomers some what would complain about rooted aesthetics regards hathaway baltimore hathaway post right the money little lengthy short orbiting billboard would trash the same way that billboard the earth trash billboards make place look trashy that why there are laws many places prohibiting their use the light pollution complaints are mainly attempt find some tangible reason against orbiting billboards because people don feel morally justified complain the grounds that these things would defile the beauty the sky regular orbiting spacecraft are not the same this respect since they are more like abstract entities but billboard space would like beer can somebody had thrown the side the road just trash dale greer whose opinions are not confused with those the center for space sciences university texas dallas utspan utadnx utdssa greer greer utdcss utdallas edu let machines multiply doing the work many but let the people have use for them lao tzu
sci.space	vandalizing the sky come this sci space orbital billboard won any permanent damage few years will reenter and probably hit los angles anyway the boost space commerce orbital advertising might provide might speed the day possible for those with yen for dark skies get some really dark skies beyond the dust producing the zodiacal light now they wanted paint the cocacola symbol the moon lampblack that would give pause would very difficult reverse such widespread application pigments thomas clarke institute for simulation and training university central research parkway suite orlando fax clarke acme ucf edu
sci.space	gamma ray bursters where are they article apr tpl tplrd tpl keithh tplrd tpl keith harwood writes article rbl einnip gap caltech edu palmer cco caltech edu david palmer writes prb access digex com pat writes what evidence indicates that gamma ray bursters are very far away given the enormous power was just wondering what they are quantum black holes something like that fairly close why would they have galactic ranges david gives good explaination the deductions from the isotropic edged distribution whit they are either part the universe part the oort cloud why couldn they earth centred with the edge occuring the edge the gravisphere know there isn any mechanism for them but there isn mechanism for the others either what earth the gravisphere anyway before decay the pioneer venus orbiter had gamma ray detector does ulysses they detect the brightest bursts that the earth orbit detectors the bursts are least oort cloud distances principle four detectors spaced out few would see parallax the bursts are solar system origin the problem with oort cloud sources that absolutely plausible mechanism has been proposed would have involve new physics far can tell closest conventional oort sources model field pinching comets got too many holes count but least was good try steinn sigurdsson lick observatory steinly lick ucsc edu standard disclaimer the laws gravity are very very strict and you just bending them for your own benefit
sci.space	temperature the dark sky does anyone have reference something can look not just your own recollections have few those myself the temperature the night sky seen from space note not talking about the temperature the microwave background radiation there are more things the sky than just the mbr what after total blackbody temperature what thermal radiator would see disregarding shielding against the sun and nearby large warm objects dim recollection that the net effective temperature substantially higher than that the mbr once you figure things like stars and the zodiacal light but like numbers svr resembles high speed collision henry spencer toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	words from the chairman boeing ssto type stuff yesterday went the boeing shareholders meeting was bit shorter than expected last year when the stock was first down they made big presentation the and other programs this year was much more bare bones any case wanted ask question that the board directors would hear and got there early and figured that didn get the mike maybe they would read mine off card and wrote down and handed after the meeting started shrontz said that would only answer written questions order fair the people the overflow room that only had monitors downstairs naturally was crushed when question and answer time came was suprised find question being read and answered admittedly near the end the ones that took presumably getting there early and getting the question early made all the difference the substance the question was boeing looking anything beyond the high speed civil transport such commercial space launch system and not how will boeing compete with the reusable single stage orbit technology presently being developed mcdonnell douglass well read without hitch and without editing with impressed then answered very quickly treating two part question last part first this the best recollection what said far single stage orbit technology think that have better answer two stage approach and are talking some our customers about that far commercialization that long ways off the high speed civil transport about far out our commercial planning goes this point this tells that boeing still considers space non commercial arena and for the most part this true however also tells that they consider there enough money building space launchers for them persue work their own now have friend the spacelifter program boeing actually this mis nomer there spacelifter contract for the work that this guy doing however doing work preparation proposal for space lifter contracts won tell what doing but maybe this where the tsto action taking place boeing the very minimum the chairman the board boeing said that they have approach mind and they are trying something with anybody know anything further this really news does this threaten further work john
sci.space	temperature the dark sky article zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes does anyone have reference something can look not just your own recollections have few those myself the temperature the night sky seen from space note not talking about the temperature the microwave background radiation there are more things the sky than just the mbr what after total blackbody temperature what thermal radiator would see disregarding shielding against the sun and nearby large warm objects dim recollection that the net effective temperature substantially higher than that the mbr once you figure things like stars and the zodiacal light but like numbers svr resembles high speed collision henry spencer toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry not quite what you were asking but few years ago helped some remote sensing people run some experiments the microwave emmissivity ice they used the sky for background calibration source they said that from earth surface the sky looks like blackbody kurt hillig dept chemistry always tell the phone university michigan absolute truth khillig umich edu ann arbor see hillig chem lsa umich edu
sci.space	hst servicing mission scheduled for days another factor against bringing the hst back earth risk contamination luciana messina lcm spl spl loral com
sci.space	space calendar the space calendar updated monthly and the latest copy available ames arc nasa gov the pub space faq please send any updates corrections ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov note that launch dates are subject change the following person made contributions this month calendar dennis newkirk soyuz launch date dec space calendar april indicates change from last month calendar april apr astra ariane launch may may advanced photovoltaic electronics experiment apex pegasus launch may radcal scout launch may gps pmq delta launch may commercial experiment transporter comet conestoga launch may astronomy day may iapetus saturn eclipse may galileo enters asteroid belt again may eta aquarid meteor shower maximum solar lon deg may air force titan launch may sts endeavour european retrievable carrier eureca may anniversary pioneer venus orbiter launch may partial solar eclipse visible from north america northern europe may magellan aerobraking begins june jun temisat meteor launch jun uhf atlas launch jun noaa atlas launch jun first test flight the delta clipper unmanned jun hispasat insat ariane launch jun lunar eclipse visible from north america jun sakigake earth flyby japan jun anniversary charon discovery pluto moon christy jun sts discovery advanced communications technology satellite july jul msti scout launch jul galaxy ariane launch jul soyuz launch soviet jul soyuz launch soviet jul soyuz landing soviet jul iapetus saturn eclipse jul soyuz landing soviet jul delta aquarid meteor shower maximum solar longitude degrees jul nasa birthday august aug ets engineering test satellite launch japan aug geos launch aug landsat launch aug orbcom fdm pegasus launch aug anniversary pioneer venus launch atmospheric probes aug mars observer trajectory correction maneuver tcm aug delta aquarids meteor shower maximum solar longitude degrees aug perseid meteor shower maximum solar longitude degrees aug mars observer mars orbit insertion moi aug sts columbia spacelab life sciences sls aug galileo asteroid ida flyby september sep spot ariane launch sep tubsat launch sep seastar pegasus launch october oct intelsat ariane launch oct slv pegasus launch oct telstar atlas launch oct seawifs launch oct orionid meteor shower maximum solar longitude degrees november nov solidaridad mop ariane launch nov anniversary mariner launch mercury venus flyby mission nov taurid meteor shower nov galileo exits asteroid belt nov mercury transits across the sun visible from asia australia and the south pacific nov mars observer mapping orbit established nov sts discovery spacehab nov partial solar eclipse visible from southern hemisphere nov wilhelm herschel birthday nov leonids meteor shower maximum solar longitude degrees nov mars observer mapping begins nov total lunar eclipse visible from north america south america december dec goes atlas launch dec nato delta launch dec toms pegasus launch dec directtv thiacom ariane launch dec istp wind delta launch dec step pegasus launch dec soyuz launch soviet dec sts endeavour hubble space telescope repair dec spektr launch soviet dec anniversary pioneer jupiter flyby dec mars observer mars equinox dec geminids meteor shower maximum solar longitude degrees dec mars observer solar conjunction begins dec ursids meteor shower maximum solar longitude degrees january jan mars observer end solar conjunction jan clementine titan iig launch lunar orbiter asteroid flyby mission february feb sfu launch feb gms launch feb anniversary mariner venus flyby feb sts columbia microgravity payload usmp feb galileo birthday feb clementine lunar orbit insertion feb anniversary mariner launch mars flyby mission march mar launch mar anniversary voyager jupiter flyby mar albert einstein birthday mar anniversary mariner launch mars flyby mission mar anniversary mariner mercury flyby mar galaxy delta launch april apr equator scout launch apr mars observer perihelion apr sts atlantis srl ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab telos the aweto from new zealand pasadena part caterpillar and part vegetable
sci.space	bil space race ideas moon base the cheap although the billion scheme fantasy old canard the space business called trolling for billionaires there good chance that much smaller program million will pass the congress this the back the moon bill put together the people who passed the launch services purchase act the bill would incent private companies develop lunar orbiters with vendors selected the basis competitive bidding there aggregate cap the bids million having single rich individual paying billions for lunar missions probably worse than having the government bankroll million program the delta clipper program has shown was funded sdio million have clear chance making lunar mission happen this decade opposed simply wishing for our dreams come true please support the back the moon bill for more information please send mail with your postal service address maximus
sci.space	vandalizing the sky article apr ucf edu clarke acme ucf edu thomas clarke writes now they wanted paint the cocacola symbol the moon lampblack that would give pause wouldn bother laugh wouldn work the surface the moon already pretty dark and the contrast would poor you couldn possibly see the only reason the moon looks bright that bright sunlight against otherwise dark sky evidently heinlein didn know that svr resembles high speed collision henry spencer toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	vandalizing the sky article ece cmu edu loss ece cmu edu doug loss writes didn want quote all the stuff that been said recently just wanted add point then enforces those rights for them here the the constitution provides bill rights from which most not all legal rights are considered derive sure that most other countries have these seem hardly like the groups discuss this but huh all legitimate power enforce these rights derives from the consent the governed not from steenkin piece paper civilized gov mnt not autonomous computer program interactive the constitution was made the people and can trashed ain sacred scripture from which rights flow our rights come from our souls and sure didn see any request vote trashing the sky again opinion only keep our rights using them not going some court comparable documents you can persuade court that you have right dark sky derived some manner from the bill rights the you can prevent maybe these billboards from being launched keep anyone the world from launching then gets into international law and the international court justice correct name the hague something know little about doug loss loss husky bloomu edu most gracious regards whh
sci.space	want that billion article vvg zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes only doesn spend more than billion dollars doing since the prize not going scaled match the level effort you can spend billion pretty quickly buying titan launches fine buy from george georgeee that assumes can weasel out cooperative venture some sort cut break the launcher cut you the proceeds works only the government pays higher than list price what more you buy titans the prize money your entire return investment you develop new launch system has other uses and the prize just the icing the cake unless you martin marietta since recall they bought out the line aerospace products does house project their costs would look much better than buying list price does anyone really know the profit margins built the titan mon allen telling how cheap can get improved this that doubt very much that billion dollar prize going show enough return justify the investment you are constrained use current launchers please how much profit you want pulling million after all said and done wouldn too shabby not mention the other goodies collect movie rights say million conservatively advertising look mommie they drinking coke intangibles name recognization experience data acculumated you going have invest your front money building new launch system rather than pissing away existing ones being there first importance you bankrupt doing you want lean fine million prize would more than adequate for prize maybe wales would kind enough define what company would consider decent profit you want done you have write clauses suppose you could make sbir set aside software engineering that like military intelligence isn sysmgr cadlab eng umd edu
sci.space	two line orbital element set space shuttle the most current orbital elements from the norad two line element sets are carried the celestial bbs and are updated daily when possible documentation and tracking software are also available this system service the satellite user community the most current elements for the current shuttle mission are provided below the celestial bbs may accessed hours day bps using data bits stop bit parity element sets also updated daily shuttle elements and some documentation and software are also available via anonymous ftp from archive afit mil the directory pub space sts kelso assistant professor space operations tkelso afit mil air force institute technology
sci.space	lindbergh and the moon was why not give gnb baby bby com gregory bond writes article kxf news cso uiuc edu jbh uxa cso uiuc edu josh hopkins writes voyages discovery could you give examples privately funded ones you believe the film columbus had substantial private funds when columbus asked the merchant why put the money the guy said slightly paraphrased there faith hope and charity but greater than these banking heck some his ships were loaners one was owned basque you know one those groups that probably crossed the atlantic before columbus came along gregory bond gnb bby com burdett buckeridge young ltd melbourne australia knox slick fox sox knox box knox box very quick plays lots lsl sick apologies john iron bar mackin phil fraering seems like every day find out all sorts stuff pgf srl cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man
sci.space	level article apr fnalf fnal gov higgins fnalf fnal gov bill higgins beam jockey writes will someone tell ignorant physicist where the term level comes from but who that invents this standard and how come everyone but seems familiar with the sei software engineering institute dod funded part carnegie mellon university you can read about part yourdon the decline and fall the american programmer yourdon press just passing thru eugene miya nasa ames research center eugene orville nas nasa gov resident cynic rock ages home for retired hackers uunet mailrus other gateways ames eugene second favorite email message returned mail cannot send message for days ref mathematics and plausible reasoning vol polya
sci.space	comet launch date hello out there your familiar with the comet program then this concerns you comet scheduled launched from wallops island sometime june does anyone know official launch date has been set thanks rob
sci.space	want that billion article rkb inn mojo eng umd edu sysmgr king eng umd edu writes what more you buy titans the prize money your entire return investment you develop new launch system has other uses and the prize just the icing the cake unless you martin marietta since recall they bought out the line aerospace products think you got off one error your memory bought the satellite building side not and are still competitors does house project their costs would look much better than buying list price better yes but not talking order magnitude especially you want use titan which belongs the usaf not mon allen telling how cheap can get improved this that sure you can get heavylift launcher fairly cheap you privately rather than gummint project but still talking about something that will cost nine digits per launch unless you can guarantee large market justify volume production svr resembles high speed collision henry spencer toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	space surveillance what really meant thanks the people who have answered here and email question about which countries engage space surveillance unfortunately apparently didn make the meaning the message clear since most replies have addressed satellite reconnaissance rather than space surveillance what meant was not which countries use satellites look the earth satellite reconnaissance but was which countries have programs detect and track determine the orbital elements satellites they pass overhead space surveillance the uses missile defense radars supplemented fascinating quasi radar operated the navy this for satellites leo and electrooptical systems for objects altitudes above the fee understand does much the same thing amateur satellite observers use eyeballs binoculars stopwatches and pcs for objects out around enabling them keep track satellites for which official element sets aren available see the fascinating books desmond king hele for details well the files the molczan directory kilroy jpl nasa gov the material posted previous message suggests that japan engages optical and radar space surveillance modest degree and may that other countries also which was the question meant ask who are they how they and why they allen thomson saic mclean yes don speak for saic
sci.space	long term human missions excerpt from rek siss robert kaye just few contributions from the space program regular society calculators teflon your eggs don stick the pan pacemakers kept grandfather alive from until don forget tang smile robert shearman university maryland college park maryland mail madison wam umd edu will work for chocolate
sci.space	see mir evening skies astronomy space magazine telephone newsline carries the times see the russian space station mir which will visible every evening some time between clock and midnight from april may about bright jupiter its best there are two cosmonuats board for the time watch tel min peak min all other times but prediction start the weekly message only costs few pence mail reports sightings would appreciated give lat long and few seconds accuracy possible when passes above below any bright star say brighter than mag planet moon with moon evening sky also note that from somewhere mir will pass front the moon each night please alert local clubs the telephone newsline and general public mir can cause quite stir tony ryan astronomy space new international magazine available from astronomy ireland box dublin ireland issues one year sub pounds surface add airmail access visa mastercard accepted give number expiration date name address world largest astro soc per capita unless you know better tel ireland eire cost per min
sci.space	tsniimach enterprise article cmu edu flb flb optiplan baube writes from wales larrison ofa fidonet org tsniimach enterprise described military establishment focusing aerodynamics and thermal protection spacecraft and which has participated the development the buran shuttle system they are located near the npo energia facility kaliningrad outside moscow this facility kaliningrad this not near moscow correction and some more info the kaliningrad that larrison writes about indeed near moscow read that may also known the name podlipk and short distance from zvezdny gorodok star city and the cosmonaut training center there read that the tsniimach central scientific research institute machine building est enterprise was also responsible for creating the nkik ground command and measurement complex including the kaliningrad flight control center which has controlled all soviet russian manned spaceflights since its completion however appears have been part the ministry general machine building which was not part the military ministry defense but would have been part the military industrial complex dennis newkirk dennisn ecs comm mot com motorola land mobile products sector schaumburg
sci.space	see mir evening skies tell friends astronomy space magazine telephone newsline carries the times see the russian space station mir which will visible every evening some time between clock and midnight from april may about bright jupiter its best there are two cosmonuats board for the time watch tel min peak min all other times but prediction start the weekly message only costs few pence mail reports sightings would appreciated give lat long and few seconds accuracy possible when passes above below any bright star say brighter than mag planet moon with moon evening sky also note that from somewhere mir will pass front the moon each night please alert local clubs the telephone newsline and general public mir can cause quite stir tony ryan astronomy space new international magazine available from astronomy ireland box dublin ireland issues one year sub pounds surface add airmail access visa mastercard accepted give number expiration date name address world largest astro soc per capita unless you know better tel ireland eire cost per min mir seen right time april passed just above jupiter brighter than arcturus but dimmer than jupiter not one its highest passes
sci.space	temperature the dark sky article apr news arc nasa gov moses pan arc nasa gov julie moses writes radiation field has been measured and modeled various groups remember things correctly the models involved contributions from three different sources there obvious temperature background radiation our local area indeed the sky doesn look much like black body you look carefully enough particular its temperature radio frequencies quite bit higher than you would see from black body morgan gordon fat communications satellite handbook has graph sky temperature wavelength fact for communications design however terms energy content the frequencies are negligible for thermal purposes very large distances from the sun the sky looks like black body allen astrophysical quantities haven found number for non large distances since solar radiation tends something you can just ignore but says about brief discussion why solar radiation dominates the problem svr resembles high speed collision henry spencer toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	the universe motion book review book review the universe motion dewey larson north pacific publishers portland oregon pages indexed hardcover the universe motion contains final solutions most all astrophysical mysteries this book volume iii revised and enlarged edition the structure the physical universe volume nothing but motion and volume the basic properties matter most books and journal articles the subject astrophysics are bristling with integrals partial differentials and other fancy mathematics this book contrast mathematics conspicuous its absence except for some relatively simple formulas imbedded the text larson emphasizes concepts and declares that mathematical agreement with theory does not guarantee its conceptual validity dewey larson was retired engineer with bachelor science degree engineering science from oregon state university developed the theory described his books while trying find way mathematically calculate the properties chemical compounds based only the elements they contain the universe motion describes the astrophysical portions larson consistent integrated comprehensive general unified theory the physical universe kind grand unified field theory that orthodox physicists and astro physicists claim looking for built two postulates about the physical and mathematical nature space and time the physical universe composed entirely one component motion existing three dimensions discrete units and with two reciprocal aspects space and time the physical universe conforms the relations ordinary commutative mathematics its primary magnitudes are absolute and its geometry euclidean from these two postulates larson was able build complete theoretical universe from photons and subatomic particles the giant elliptical galaxies combining the concept inward and outward scalar motions with translational vibrational rotational and rotational vibrational motions each step the development was able match parts his theoretical universe with corresponding parts the real physical universe including even things not yet discovered for example his book first predicted the existence exploding galaxies several years before astronomers started finding them they are necessary consequence his comprehensive theory and when quasars were discovered had related explanation ready for those also result his theory which called the reciprocal system larson totally rejected many the sacred doctrines orthodox physicists and astrophysicists including black holes neutron stars degenerate matter quantum wave mechanics applied atomic structure nuclear physics general relativity relativistic mass increases relativistic doppler shifts nuclear fusion stars and the big bang all which considered nothing more than mathematical fantasies was very critical the hoc assumptions uncertainty principles solutions principle other way declarations etc used maintain them the universe motion divided into chapters begins with description how galaxies are built from the gravitational attraction between globular star clusters which are formed from intergalactic gas and dust clouds that accumulate from the decay products cosmic rays coming from the anti matter half the physical universe galaxy formation from the mythical big bang big mystery orthodox astronomers then goes describe life cycles stars and how binary and multiple star systems and solar systems result from type supernova explosions single stars several chapters are devoted quasars which according larson are densely packed clusters stars that have been ejected from the central bulges exploding galaxies and are actually traveling faster than the speed light although most that speed away from time astronomers and astrophysicists who run against observations that contradict their theories would find larson explanations quite valuable considered with open mind for example they used believe that gamma ray bursts originated from pulsars which exist primarily the plane central bulge our galaxy but the new gamma ray telescope earth orbit observed that the bursts come from all directions uniformly and not correspond with any visible objects except for few cases directional coincidence larson explanation that the gamma ray bursts originate from supernova explosions the anti matter half the physical universe which larson calls the cosmic sector because the anti matter universe exists reciprocal relation our material universe with the speed light the boundary between them and has three dimensions time and only one dimension space the bursts can pop into our material universe anywhere seemingly random larson heavily quotes paraphrases statements from books journal articles and leading physicists and astronomers this book them are superscripted with numbers identifying entries the reference list the end the book for example quote from the book astronomy the cosmic journey william hartmann says our hopes understanding all stars would brighten could explain exactly how binary and multiple stars form unfortunately cannot larson book contains logical consistent explanations such mysteries that are worthy serious consideration all physicists astronomers and astrophysicists for more information answers your questions etc please consult cited sources larson books altered reproduction and dissemination this important book review encouraged robert mcelwaine physics and astronomy
sci.space	long term human missions mike adams suggested discussions long term effects spaceflight the human being love this topic some you regulars know having seen henry encouraging statement about starting talk about shall feel that community people have unique resources deliver the world comprehensive book which can elaborate the utility spaceflight fields which are divergent medical intensive care agriculture environmental protection and probably more not believe that the general public understands the impact spaceflight the whole society the absence such knowledge see dwindling support the world space effort believe that group have the responsibility not only communicate amongst ourselves but also with others through print media well orchestrated and technically oriented analysis life science variables required support long duration spaceflight like long expenditions the moon mars would entertaining and educational the general public the objective such effort would compile resources and publications from accepted scientific and technical journals which would address each major life science area addition ideas for further research and development could put forward for the general public ponder allowing the general public take part the excitement exploration individuals interested should willing devote hour per week running literature searches and finding journal articles addition need obtain the assistance personnel from within the halls nasa and industry have appreciated the positive responses date and personally eager start this project perhaps could start with debate regarding how best grade the viability various technologies for application spaceflight ken
sci.space	gamma ray bursters where are they article apr midway uchicago edu pef midway uchicago edu writes batse having detectors its own can its own location determination but only within about degrees would someone gsfc like david like comment the current state location determination having inde pendent sightings other detectors helps drive down the uncertainty well avoid your question for now got some learnin with promise come back with more info when can find know that batse the primary instrument the development the all sky map long term sources given that fact and the spacecraft attitude knowledge approx arcmin might able figure out how well batse can determine the location rotational gamma ray burster from knowledge the all sky map accuracy material for the other three instruments give accuracies the order fractions degree that any help speaking gro the net world probably was happy see that the preps for orbit adjust appear going well our branch guy who helping out says that things have gone smoothly with the iso valve preps and the burns will take place mid june anyway off find out more back when get some info david gsfc don know nuthin bout measurin gamma rays gone with the wind paraphrased
sci.space	temperature the dark sky henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes does anyone have reference something can look not just your own recollections have few those myself the temperature the night sky seen from space you find that allen astrophysical quantities athlone press dover edition the accuracy can calculated see specific references allen about how calculated the temperature degrees lots people have remarked this temperature the first may have been eddington book internal constitution stars reprinted where gives the temperature space degrees the source this temperature the radiation starlight dim recollection that the net effective temperature substantially higher than that the mbr once you figure things like stars and the zodiacal light but like numbers the accuracy measurement the same temperature some think this may not coincidence tom tom van flandern washington metares well meta research was founded foster research into ideas not otherwise supported because they conflict with mainstream theories astronomy
sci.space	gamma ray bursters how energetic could they article apr vax mankato msus edu belgarath vax mankato msus edu writes energetic for close for the coronal model found around erg sec and lastly for the cosmological model that what you call moderately energetic say any suggestions about what could put out that much energy one second jeremy big capacitor real big capacitor pat
sci.space	gamma ray bursters where are they well seem have struck interesting discussion off given that not astrophysicist nuclear physicist have boil down bit all the data bursts date shows smooth random distribution that means they aren concentrated galactic cores our someone elses the distribution smooth are either seeing some enormously large phenomena scattered the edge the universe said phenomena being subject debate almost vioent the phenomena are seeing some phenomena out like the oort cloud but then needs some potent little energy source that isn detectable any other current methods know not real close like slightly extra solar because have parallax measurements the bursts the bursts seem bright something like black hole quanta super string impacts something like that everyone watching the data and arguing like mad the meanwhile what wondering this people opinion new physics problem einstein got well known for solvingthe photoelectric effect copernicus started looking irregularities planetary motion this big enough problem create new area physics just little speculative thinking folks pat
sci.space	gamma ray bursters where are they steinly topaz ucsc edu steinn sigurdsson writes article apr tpl tplrd tpl keithh tplrd tpl keith harwood writes article rbl einnip gap caltech edu palmer cco caltech edu david palmer writes prb access digex com pat writes what evidence indicates that gamma ray bursters are very far away given the enormous power was just wondering what they are quantum black holes something like that fairly close why would they have galactic ranges david gives good explaination the deductions from the isotropic edged distribution whit they are either part the universe part the oort cloud why couldn they earth centred with the edge occuring the edge the gravisphere know there isn any mechanism for them but there isn mechanism for the others either what earth the gravisphere anyway before decay the pioneer venus orbiter had gamma ray detector does ulysses they detect the brightest bursts that the earth orbit detectors the bursts are least oort cloud distances principle four detectors spaced out few would see parallax the bursts are solar system origin the problem with oort cloud sources that absolutely plausible mechanism has been proposed would have involve new physics far can tell closest conventional oort sources model field pinching comets got too many holes count but least was good try steinn sigurdsson lick observatory steinly lick ucsc edu standard disclaimer the laws gravity are very very strict and you just bending them for your own benefit also they did come from the oort cloud would expect see the same from other stars oort clouds andrew walker
sci.space	vandalizing the sky article news cso uiuc edu gfk uxa cso uiuc edu george krumins writes say what objecting here floating billboard that presumably would move around the sky for one against legislating all just wish that people had bit common courtesy and would consider how their greed for money impacts the more ethereal and aesthetic values that make human this includes the need for wild and unspoiled things including the night sky sorry that aesthetics argument maybe this string shoudl mofe sci space aesthetics planes ruin the night sky blimps ruin the night sky radio towers ruin the night sky like said get vote and create some more national parks which include onobstructed air space
sci.space	gamma ray bursters where are they article steinly apr topaz ucsc edu steinly topaz ucsc edu steinn sigurdsson writes this does not propose mechanism for grbs the oort and anti matter annihilation does not fit the spectra least far understand annihilation spectra big difference that ignoring the question how you fit distribution the oort distribution when the oort distribution not well known particular comet aphelia which are not well known are not good measure the oort cloud distribution merging neutron stars least mechanism with about the right energy except doesn explain why there apparent correlation with galaxies galaxy structure there mechanism for getting all the energy out gamma rays with any significant amount baryons around there will lot pair production which makes plasma which thermalizes the energy has trouble generating enough energy explain the most powerful bursts ergs happens too fast compared the burst duration and hard make tight binaries neutron stars another cosmological mechinism the catalytic conversion neutron star strange star the merger two strange stars but that uses pretty far out physics point that don have good mechanism any distance grb are likely happening unknown mechanism can rule out the oort cloud what would the spectrum event which converts comet strange matter the spectra for primordial black holes eating comets and antimatter comets colliding with matter comets aren quite right but perhaps there unusual mechanism which modifies the spectrum the energy matches very well for both these mechanisms according trevor weeks the tunguska meteorite was mini black hole collision with the earth then there are likely enough mini black holes around that the rate for comet collisions matches the grb rate well the fact that don know the distribution comets the oort cloud isn reason rule them out makes harder rule them out the point the cited paper was that assume they got the right distribution for the oort cloud hard but not impossible match that with the distribution grb they got the wrong distribution for the oort cloud they can constrain any oort cloud grb all executive summary don know enough rule out out the oort cloud
sci.space	gamma ray bursters positional stuff article rmh einn gap caltech edu kwp wag caltech edu kevin plaxco writes article apr stdvax gsfc nasa gov abdkw stdvax gsfc nasa gov david ward writes given that fact and the spacecraft attitude knowledge approx arcmin might able figure out how well batse can determine the location rotational gamma ray burster from knowledge the all sky map accuracy material for the other three instruments give accuracies the order fractions degree that any help but believe that there fundamental difference here the other three instruments are focusing instruments that more less form image positional errors are limited craft attitude and the resolving power the optics batse altogether different beast effectively just coincidence counters one each corner the craft positional information triangulated from the differential signal arrival times each the detectors positional error would predominantly determined timing errors and errors craft attitude since none the baste detectors have any independant angular resolution whatsoever they can not used determine parallax indeed parallax would just add very small component the positional error demonstrating that these puppies are beyond the oort cloud would require resolution the order arcseconds since the oort cloud postulated extend about parsec all together now parallax arc second parsec the distance object that demonstrates one arc second parallax with base line the degree accuracy reported above true going have add baste the pluto fast flyby get enough baseline the beauty baste that both gives positional information and watches the entire sky simultaneously realy handy combination when you have idea where the next burst coming from kevin batse alone isn always used determine position when particularly bright burst occurs there are couple other detectors that catch going off pioneer the one getting here this puppy far enough away that bright burst happens nearby the huge annulus created will hopefully intersect the line general circle given batse and can get moderately accurate position say degrees that the closest anyone has ever gotten with actually advisor another classmate mine and were talking the other day about putting just one detector one the pluto satellites then realized that the satellite alone only carrying something like pounds well batse detector needs lead shielding protect and alone weighs about pounds itself decided against jeremy
sci.space	hst servicing mission scheduled for days article ckb access digex net prb access digex com pat writes guess why bother with usingthe shuttle reboost why not grapple all said fixes bolt small liquid fueled thruster module hst then let make the boost has cheaper mass then usingthe shuttle tug that way now that they are going need least spacewalks then they can carry edo pallet and sit station and even maybe the solar array tilt motor fix herny pointed out you have develop the thruster also while much lighter you still have lift the mass the thruster orbit and then the thruster lifts its own weight into higher orbit and you take room the payload bay pat
sci.space	gamma ray bursters where are they wampyr uow edu walker andrew john writes also they did come from the oort cloud would expect see the same from other stars oort clouds that very good point perhaps none the nearby stars have oort clouds alpha centauri multiple star system you wouldn expect oort cloud what the nearest single star that likely have planetary system
sci.space	new inexpensive method for determining ore oil locations dear gentlemen the firm called interbusiness ltd offers quite inexpensive method determine ore oil locations all over the world this method used data got from space satellites being your office and using theese data you can get good statis tical prognosis locations mentioned above this prognosis could done for any part the world you interested details please send mail svn aoibs msk sushkov vladimir moscow russia
sci.space	temperature the dark sky henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes does anyone have reference something can look not just your own recollections have few those myself the temperature the night sky seen from space the temperature intergalactic space intercluster intersupercluster space would very very close the microwave background temperature kelvins recall that interstellar space our neighborhood the galaxy something like that what you were looking for erik max francis tsftdotiote apple uuwest max max west darkside com usmail oakmont san jose icbm you like strategic games interstellar conquest ask about universe omnia quia sunt lumina sunt all things that are are lights
sci.space	temperature the dark sky henry spencer writes does anyone have reference something can look not just your own recollections have few those myself the temperature the night sky seen from space note not talking about the temperature the microwave background radiation there are more things the sky than just the mbr what after total blackbody temperature what thermal radiator would see disregarding shielding against the sun and nearby large warm objects henry read you correctly you may asking put blackbody interstellar space disregarding the sun and nearby large warm objects what termperature will reach thermal equilibrium with the ambient radiation field that the case let point out that interstellar dust and molecules provide many instances things that are well not too far from being blackbodies many different observations including iras and cobe have determined that interstellar dust grain temperatures can range from you might look conference proceedings interstellar processes hollenbach and thronson published try the articles tielens seab and black inside the disk the galaxy the temperature varies quite bit from place place how close are you the nearest association would guess outside the galaxy course things aren varied hope this what you were looking for michael richmond this the heart that broke finger richmond astro princeton edu
sci.space	long term human missions article apr rpslmc edu rek siss robert kaye writes just few contributions from the space program regular society calculators teflon your eggs don stick the pan pacemakers kept grandfather alive from until don think touting contributions good idea world war produced many many beneficial spinoffs radar jet aeroplanes rocket technology don think anyone would argue that world war was and itself good thing you want people back the space program must good thing and itself paul
sci.space	gamma ray bursters where are they article apr desire wright edu jbatka desire wright edu writes assume that can only guessed the assumed energy the event and the law the law incorrect assume some unknown material dark matter inhibits gamma ray propagation could possible that are actually seeing much less energetic events happening much closer the even distribution could caused the characteristic propagation distance gamma rays being shorter then the thickness the disk the galaxy believe the problem with this theory that see gamma ray sources that energy range and their energy doesn seem significantly absorbed
sci.space	vandalizing the sky fdw news cso uiuc edu george krumins writes according this reasoning there are rights least none that can think you got what you regard right someone else will regard privilege followups some generic ethics and morality newsgroup greg nicholls vidi nicho vnet ibm com vici nicho olympus demon veni
sci.space	vandalizing the sky rls access digex net prb access digex com pat writes planes ruin the night sky blimps ruin the night sky radio towers ruin the night sky like said get vote and create some more national parks which include onobstructed air space you should have heard prof mcnally from days astronomy undergraduate denouncing photon pollution was easy imagine him taking practical steps modify the sodium lamps the street outside mill hill observatory with gauge shotgun however seriously possible limit the effects streetlights adding reflector that the light only illuminates the ground which after all where you need bonus the power consumption required for given illumination level reduced strangely enough astronomers often seek lobby elected local authorities use such lighting systems with considerable success the desert areas around the major observatories least thats what mcnally told all those years ago british local authorities couldn care less far can see suppose that the right dark skies more than aspiration but worthwhile one illuminated orbital billboards seem especially yukky and are presumably the area international law any although find the idea right bear anti satellite weapons intriguing peter card joint european torus abingdon oxfordshire tel fax email pjc jet compuserve wasnt was the others they made disclaimer please note that the above personal view and should not construed official comment from the jet project
sci.space	internet resources exit
sci.space	internet resources taking course entitled exploring science using internet for our final project are find compendium internet resources dealing with science related topic chose astronomy anyway was wondering anyone out there knew any interesting resources internet that provide information astronomy space nasa anything like that thanks keith malinowski stk vax stockton edu box stockton state college pomona new jersey
sci.space	gamma ray bursters positional stuff article apr vax mankato msus edu belgarath vax mankato msus edu writes getting here this puppy far enough away that bright burst happens nearby the huge annulus created will hopefully intersect the line general circle given batse and can get moderately accurate position say degrees that the closest anyone has ever gotten with you can whole hell lot better than degrees with the differential timing measurements from the interplanetary network ignore the directional information from batse just look the time arrival with three detectors properly arranged one can often get positions down arc minutes btw about oort cloud sources shouldn this testable the fairly near future some the grbs have very short rise times could detect the curvature the burst wavefront out distance the order where the detector spacing and the time resolution for and this the order light years understand statistics will reduce this number considerably would geometry the burst coming from the wrong direction paul
sci.space	what planets are habitable article iyd ece cmu edu loss ece cmu edu doug loss writes article jpg apr holly bnr jpg bnr jonathan gibbons writes would appreciate any thoughts what makes planet habitable for humans making asumptions that life and similar atmosphere evolve given range physical aspects the planet the question what physical aspects simply disallow earth like conditions deleted dandridge cole and isaac asimov collaborated book titled habitable planets for man think should available most good libraries through inter library loan this the high school science version the original rand study stephen dole planets for man gives the harder numbers graphs such but predates michael hart later work continuously habitable zones
sci.space	what planets are habitable would appreciate any thoughts what makes planet habitable for humans making asumptions that life and similar atmosphere evolve given range physical aspects the planet the question what physical aspects simply disallow earth like conditions this good question there are major blind spots our understanding what makes the earth habitable for example why does the earth atmosphere have the concentration oxygen does the naive answer photosynthesis but this clearly incomplete photosynthesis itself can make the atmosphere oxygenated the oxygen produced consumed when the plants decay are eaten what needed photosynthesis plus some mechanism sequester some fraction the resulting reduced material earth this mechanism burial seafloor sediments organic matter mostly from oceanic sources however this burial requires continental sediments the deep ocean the burial rate slow that most material consumed before can sequestered this suggests that planet without large oceans planet without continents undergoing weathering will have hard time accumulating oxygen atmosphere particular all ocean planet may have hard time supporting oxygen atmosphere there also the problem why the oxygen the earth atmosphere has been relatively stable over geological time for period least orders magnitude longer than the decay time atmospheric weathering the absence replenishment convincing feedback mechanism has been identified perhaps the reason the weak anthropic principle during the last myr the oxygen level had dropped too low wouldn here wondering about paul dietz dietz rochester edu
sci.space	vandalizing the sky article apr stsci edu hathaway stsci edu writes article ece cmu edu loss ece cmu edu doug loss writes didn want quote all the stuff that been said recently just wanted add point then enforces those rights for them here the the constitution provides bill rights from which most not all legal rights are considered derive sure that most other countries have these seem hardly like the groups discuss this but huh all legitimate power enforce these rights derives from the consent the governed not from steenkin piece paper don disagree this all said was that right whatever you somebody acting for you can enforce the bill rights didn come into effect until was ratified the states and indirectly the people from that point defined legal rights common law rights are vague and situational that why the people insisted bill rights the constitution spelling out exactly what they demanded from the government legitimate illegitimate power power that why the federal government can force states grant their citizens rights they don wish slugging match the feds win period and you right this doesn belong sci space said peace more frome rights least not here most gracious regards whh doug loss loss husky bloomu edu
sci.space	commercials the moon have often thought about its possible have powerfull laser earth light the moon and show lasergraphics the surface clearly that you can see with your eyes when there new moon how about coca cola logo the moon easy way target billions people you know its possible erik hansen email daimi aau fuglsangsalle aarhus university erhus denmark europe
sci.space	long term human missions ken hayashida khayash hsc usc edu wrote mike adams suggested discussions long term effects spaceflight the human being love this topic some you regulars know having seen henry encouraging statement about starting talk about shall feel that community people have unique resources deliver the world comprehensive book which can elaborate the utility spaceflight fields which are divergent medical intensive care agriculture environmental protection and probably more not believe that the general public understands the impact spaceflight the whole society the absence such knowledge see dwindling support the world space effort just few contributions from the space program regular society calculators teflon your eggs don stick the pan pacemakers kept grandfather alive from until all the regular contributors sci space news and sci space shuttle thanks for all your hard work keeping informed the doings down nasa and other space type agencies don have much time read usenet but always read these two groups robert kaye asst sys admin surgical information systems rush presbyterian luke medical center chicago usa internet rek siss rpslmc edu voice fax support your local community theater groups marcellene church schaumburg presents meet louis opening april
sci.space	astro ftp list notes hello all apologize haven published astro ftp list since march now haven tested all the sites included into the list would notified all the people you have stored some older issues there are now lots changes many sites have gone away they either not exist any more all the astro stuff have removed the job keep this list very hard all the notes and informat ion changes new sites new contents etc welcome would thank all the net people who give information for the newest version regards veikko makela computing centre univ helsinki
sci.space	astro ftp list april issue updated this short description anonymous ftp file servers containing astronomy and space research related material have included only those servers where there are special subdirectories for astro stuff much material included into general directories this list not complete data set possible places would very happy all kind notices and information depending this listing the newest version this file available via anonymous ftp nic funet pub astro general astroftp txt there are also many mirror copy archives for simtel army mil and sumex aim stanford edu mac which are not included into this list only some mirroring sites are listed veikko makela veikko makela helsinki computing centre univ helsinki ursa astronomical association server contents directories ames arc nasa gov spacecraf data and news images nasa data spacelink texts vicar software faq pub space arp anu edu images pub images nasa atari archive umich edu atari atari applications astronomy archive afit mil satellite software documents elements pub space baboon nrao edu aips document and patches radioastronomy image processing fits test images pub aips scs uiuc edu rosat starchart pub ccu aukuni msdos astronomy overseas connections refused chara gsu edu electronical journal asa journal asa sac news explorer arc nasa gov magellan viking and voyager cdroms cdrom export lcs mit edu xephem distribution contrib xephem epona physics ucg some software predictions images fits info miscellaneous pub astro pub space pub fits fits nrao edu fits documents support sample data test files sci astro fits archive fits ftp cicb images pub images astro ftp cco caltech edu astronomy magazine index pub misc ftp berlin amiga mac unix images general pub astro ftp funet mac atari amiga databases unix texts news solar reports images pub astro satellite elements faq ftp uni iauc vista image reduction asteroids pub astro garbo uwasa astronomy gipsy vmars tuwien images pub spacegifs hanauma stanford edu unix satellite program images pub astro pub astropix hysky stmarys ecu distribution pcstuff idlastro gsfc nasa gov idl routines iraf noao edu iraf software iraf julius qub space digest pub spacedigestarchive rata vuw astrophysical software pub astrophys kilroy jpl nasa gov satellite elements spacecraft info pub space eso org test images standards pub testimages pub standards nssdca gsfc nasa gov hst iue astro nssdca info spacewarn fits standard plaza aarnet edu images docs magellan graphics graphics astro magellan pomona claremont edu yale bright star catalog yale bsc pubinfo jpl nasa gov jpl news status reports images nrl navy mil mac macscitech astro rascal ics utexas edu mac mac rigel acs oakland edu pub msdos astronomy rusmv rus uni stuttgart atari soft atari applications astronomy simtel army mil msdos educ cpm sol deakin garbo uwasa pub chyde astronomy solbourne solbourne com some programs pub astro stardent arc nasa gov martian map pub stsci edu hstmap mac hst info software sumex stanford edu mac info mac app sun urz uni heidelberg misc pub msdos astronomy techreports larc nasa gov nasa langley technical reports pub techreports larc tetra gsfc nasa gov fitsio subroutines pub unbmvs csd unb space geodesy solar activity info pub canspace vmd cso uiuc edu weather satellite images world std com source codes pub astronomy uleth solar reports auroral activity forecast maps solar images ray plot coronal pub solar emission plots some abbreviations copy mirror other archive other communication projects mail contact addresses interest groups amateur astronomy european astronomy and space related bulletin boards mail catalogue finnish amateur astronomers
sci.space	hst servicing mission scheduled for days rdouglas stsci edu rob douglas writes but try land shuttle with that big huge telescope the back and you could have problems the shuttle just isn designed land with that much weight the payload hst really that much heavier than spacelab brian day bday lambda msfc nasa gov new technology inc mission software development division opinions are own
sci.space	hst servicing mission article apr stsci edu zellner stsci edu writes have never heard any serious consideration that hst might brought down for refurbishment you would have the horrendous cost transporting back january and february there were several articles wash post time saying that nasa was considering the option just now considering followup mission months after the servicing mission however the down time was estimated year servicing checkout sceheduling and training another shuttle orbit verification and quite expensive think may have been more mental exercise than real plan don know robert dempsey stsci podps which hath stomach for this fight let him depart his passport shall made and crowns for convoy put into his purse would not die this man company that fears his fellowship die with shakespeare
sci.space	vandalizing the sky article rls access digex net prb access digex com pat writes article news cso uiuc edu gfk uxa cso uiuc edu george krumins writes say what objecting here floating billboard that presumably would move around the sky for one against legislating all just wish that people had bit common courtesy and would consider how their greed for money impacts the more ethereal and aesthetic values that make human this includes the need for wild and unspoiled things including the night sky sorry that aesthetics argument maybe this string shoudl mofe sci space aesthetics planes ruin the night sky blimps ruin the night sky radio towers ruin the night sky like said get vote and create some more national parks which include onobstructed air space hokay hereby voting backyard sanctuary one acre where can object anything not like for aesthetic reasons what relief know both can happy
sci.space	lindbergh and the moon was why not give article pgf srl cacs usl edu pgf srl cacs usl edu phil fraering writes gnb baby bby com gregory bond writes article kxf news cso uiuc edu jbh uxa cso uiuc edu josh hopkins writes voyages discovery could you give examples privately funded ones much cook later exploration was privately funded joseph banks among others resolution the earlier endeavour colnett voyage the galapagos was substantially privately funded the owners british whaling vessels chancellor and willoughby were privately funded london merchant companies their voyages muscovy the list almost endless those doing the funding were about eighty percent motivated potential profit ten percent potential glory and ten percent the desire advance the sum human knowledge dan newman aeronautical engineering university sydney sydney nsw australia from dan key daniel newman path key dan newsgroups sci space subject expires references sender reply dan key daniel newman distribution world organization aeronautical engineering sydney university keywords
sci.space	abyss breathing fluids article esd lrh agate berkeley edu isaackuo skippy berkeley edu wrote are breathable liquids possible remember seeing old nova the nature things where this idea was touched upon might have been some other show nothing else know such liquids are possible because they showed large glass full this liquid and put white mouse rat since the liquid was not dense the mouse would float was held down tongs clutching its tail the thing struggled quite bit but was certainly held down long enough that was breathing the liquid never did slow down its frantic attempts swim the top now this may not have been the most humane demonstrations but certainly shows breathable liquids can made isaac kuo isaackuo math berkeley edu twinkle twinkle little sig keep less than lines big this was that incredible several years ago the volume liquid the rat had breath was considerably smaller than what human would have breath maybe possible for rat but not human davetherave
sci.space	want that billion article ikc zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes mon allen telling how cheap can get improved this that sure you can get heavylift launcher fairly cheap you privately rather than gummint project but still talking about something that will cost nine digits per launch unless you can guarantee large market justify volume production let make deal you going put billion want budget the whole sheebang for million have that much money throw around the first place you betcha going sign contract committing volume production software engineering that like military intelligence isn sysmgr cadlab eng umd edu
sci.space	political banner space propose that pepsico mcdonalds and other companies could put into orbit banners that have timely political messages such stop the slaughter bosnia etc rabjab
sci.space	test please ignore 
sci.space	space station redesign jsc alternative first kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov hey that wrote have worth uuencode gif images contain charts outlining one the many alternative space station designs being considered crystal city second kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov again wrote just posted the gif files out for anonymous ftp server ics uci edu you can retrieve them from ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geode gif ics uci edu incoming geodea gif ics uci edu incoming geodeb gif the last two are scanned color photos the others are scanned briefing charts these will deleted the ics uci edu system manager few days now the time grab them you interested sorry took long get these out but was trying for the ames server but out space but now need clarify the situation the incoming directory ics uci edu does not allow you command the files are there just checked cdt and you can get them don forget the binary mode but you can the incoming directory further update mark design made the cover space news this week one the design alternatives which was rejected but still there plugging wish him luck using the basis space station has been good idea for long time may the best design win ken jenks nasa jsc space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov good ideas are not adopted automatically they must driven into practice with courageous impatience admiral hyman rickover
sci.space	the dream machines book vaporware spacecraft ron miller space artist with long and distinguished career admired both his paintings remember the usps solar system exploration stamps last year and his writings the history spaceflight for several years been working big project which almost ready hit the streets brochure from his publisher has landed mailbox and thought was cool enough type part rather long especially given the net strong interest vaporware spacecraft the dream machines illustrated history the spaceship art science and literature ron miller with foreword arthur clarke krieger publishing company melbourne florida usa orig pre publication isbn this text history the spaceship both cultural and technological phenomenon the idea vehicle for traversing the space betwen worlds did not spring full blown into existence the tlatter half theis century the need preceded the ability make such device several hundred years soon was realized that there were other worlds than this one human beings wanted reach them tracing the history the many imaginative and often prescient attempts solve this problem also reflects the history technology science astronomy and engineering once space travel became feasible there were many more spacecraft concepts developed than ever got off the drawing board off the ground for that matter these also are described theis book for the same reason the pre space age and pre flight ideas are they are all accurate reflections their particular era dreams abilities and knowledge virtually every spaceship concept invented since well selected events important developing the idea extraterrestrial travel listed chronologically the chronological entries allow comparisons between actual astronautical events and speculative ventures they also allow comparisons between simultaneous events taking place different countries they reveal connections influences and evolutions hitherto unsuspected every entry accompanied least one illustration nearly every spacecraft concept illustrated with schematic drawing this allows accurate comparisons made between designss visualize differences similarities and influences this text will interest students astronautical history and also model builders who would interested the schematic diagrams science fiction fans well aviation history buffs and historians science will also find this book fascinating the unique collection illustrations makes visually attractive and very interesting history the spaceship special features includes scale drawings several hundred spacecraft both real and fictional contains scores illustrations artwork drawings and photos contemporary with the subject this includes extremely rare illustrations from scarce books and novels exclusive photos and drawings fromsoviet spacecraft rare stills from both famous and obscure science fiction films and unpublished photographs from nasa archives index bibliography and appendices are included contents part the archaeology the spaceship part the invention the spaceship part iii the experimenters part the world war part the golden age the spaceship part the dawn the space age the present about ron miller the brochure has page stuff here try hit the high spots former art director for albert einstein planetarium smithsonian national air and space museum member international association for astronomical arts member international astronautical association fellow the british interplanetary society consulting editor for air space smithsonian magazine author author editor sole illustrator many books since including space art cycles fire the grand tour and many others well many articles and papers book jackets and interior art for over dozen publishers contributor ibm traveling exhibition and book blueprint for space production illustrator for movies dune and total recall designer ten stamp set commemorative space postage stamps for postal service solar system exploration ordering information pre publication price before may afterwards price will krieger publishing company box melbourne usa direct order line fax add for shipping ups within usa for first book for each additional book for foreign orders add for first book for each additional additional charges for airmail shipments zap bill higgins fermi national accelerator laboratory bitnet higgins fnal bitnet internet higgins fnal fnal gov span hepnet physnet higgins
sci.space	news static test firings are now scheduled for this saturday after many schedule changes may difficult get test status during the next two weeks the number contacts are drying they all new mexico delta clipper
sci.space	vandalizing the sky sichase csa lbl gov scott chase writes pgf srl cacs usl edu phil fraering writes jeff cook ftcollinsco ncr com jeff cook writes people primitive tribes out the middle nowhere they look and see can budweiser flying across the sky seen that movie already one just like come think they might send someone quest get rid the dang thing one his lesser known books can remember which one right now the protagonists are balloon gondola travelling over africa their way around the world the balloon that five weeks balloon and anyone can tell where get sure would like reply been looking for that book for ten year and never found note that not looking for collector item hoping that someone has published modern times either paperback hardcover willing spend get copy keith mancus mancus butch jsc nasa gov wvr mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov black powder and alcohol when your states and cities fall when your back against the wall leslie fish
sci.space	temperature the dark sky article well metares well tom van flandern writes the temperature the night sky seen from space you find that allen astrophysical quantities athlone press dover edition have copy allen and never occurred look there must getting old look when get home thanks the temperature degrees remembered rather higher number but that may have been for the lunar nearside where the earth significant heat source svr resembles high speed collision henry spencer toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	temperature the dark sky article apr princeton edu richmond spiff princeton edu stupendous man writes henry read you correctly you may asking put blackbody interstellar space disregarding the sun and nearby large warm objects what termperature will reach thermal equilibrium with the ambient radiation field basically the right question although was interested cases closer home where the sun behind either natural object effective shielding that the case let point out that interstellar dust and molecules provide many instances things that are well not too far from being blackbodies inside the disk the galaxy the temperature varies quite bit from place place good point and thanks for the references svr resembles high speed collision henry spencer toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	temperature the dark sky article apr princeton edu richmond spiff princeton edu stupendous man writes henry spencer writes does anyone have reference something can look not just your own recollections have few those myself the temperature the night sky seen from space henry read you correctly you may asking put blackbody interstellar space disregarding the sun and nearby large warm objects what termperature will reach thermal equilibrium with the ambient radiation field that the case let point out that interstellar dust and molecules provide many instances things that are well not too far from being blackbodies many different observations including iras and cobe have determined that interstellar dust grain temperatures can range from yes but that because interstellar grains are very poor radiators not remotely black bodies consequence they are lot warmer than the ambient inside the disk the galaxy the temperature varies quite bit from place place how close are you the nearest association would guess outside the galaxy course things aren varied when was graduate school long time ago used deg with dilution factor for representative values the radiant energy background the galaxy due starlight ben
sci.space	gamma ray bursters positional stuff article apr vax mankato msus edu belgarath vax mankato msus edu writes actually advisor another classmate mine and were talking the other day about putting just one detector one the pluto satellites then realized that the satellite alone only carrying something like pounds well batse detector needs lead shielding protect and alone weighs about pounds itself actually the situation even worse than that the total mass the pluto fast flyby spacecraft only ish pounds and most that support equipment like power and communications the mass available for instruments maybe that don think batse will fit actually would you need the shielding understanding that mostly there give the detectors some directionality point doing that you only got one sure the burst detectors that have flown other deep space missions haven weighed that much mind you they probably still too heavy the pff people would put more pluto specific instruments first they had any mass spare svr resembles high speed collision henry spencer toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	gamma ray bursters how energetic could they prb access digex com pat writes article apr vax mankato msus edu belgarath vax mankato msus edu writes energetic for close for the coronal model found around erg sec and lastly for the cosmological model that what you call moderately energetic say any suggestions about what could put out that much energy one second jeremy big capacitor real big capacitor been suggested specifically lightning strikes between clouds the interstellar medium david palmer palmer alumni caltech edu palmer tgrs gsfc nasa gov
sci.space	vandalizing the sky article apr aio jsc nasa gov mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov keith mancus writes that five weeks balloon and anyone can tell where get sure would like reply been looking for that book for ten year and never found note that not looking for collector item hoping that someone has published modern times either paperback hardcover willing spend get copy too jules verne collector and can tell you that though tough find out there keep eyes open all the time for his books various bay area used book stores and every once while get very lucky you just need diligence don know the book store situation near jsc good the bay area but good luck have also had excellent luck the antiquarian book fair which comes every other year though the prices are more the range than the you want spend guess that you find you won need spend even that much since most people don care about think paid about for dust jacket less but otherwise good condition copy which found one day small bookshop that happened have just bought lot random books estate sale course you willing buy blind you can put advertisement the antiquarian bookseller newsletter the exact title which escapes the moment five weeks balloon not the rarest jules verne books someone has for sale somewhere and the the way find fact would surprised you didn get multiple offers sale course that takes the fun out hunting for yourself good luck scott new sig under construction scott chase please patient sichase csa lbl gov thank you
sci.space	astronauts what does weightlessness feel like understand the when one orbit the inward force gravity one center mass exactly balanced the outward centrifugal force from the orbiting motion resulting weightlessness want know what weightlessness actually feels like for example there constant sensation falling and what the motion sickness that some astronauts occasionally experience please reply only you are either former current astronaut someone who has had this discussion first hand with astronaut thanks jerry liebelson jlieb morgan com compuserve com
sci.space	hst servicing mission article apr lambda msfc nasa gov bday lambda msfc nasa gov brian day writes rdouglas stsci edu rob douglas writes but try land shuttle with that big huge telescope the back and you could have problems the shuttle just isn designed land with that much weight the payload hst really that much heavier than spacelab hate belabor the obvious once again but there had been orbiter emergency the early stages the original hst deployment mission they would have had land with hst the bay indeed they were worried about that one concern was the possibility that they would lose motor something the way and make orbit but one that was too low give hst useful lifetime against atmospheric drag believe the decision was deploy hst even the projected lifetime was short six months fact got excellent orbit the upper envelope what the shuttle can have never heard any serious consideration that hst might brought down for refurbishment you would have the horrendous cost transporting cleaning testing and certifying all the hardware the ground addition the lost observing time and the cost second deployment mission with the risks that might not get such good orbit the second time and you would probably still need third servicing mission few years gyros and other components wear out better have two servicing missions space which could well happen than bring hst down and take again ben
sci.space	hst servicing mission scheduled for days apr lambda msfc nasa gov bday lambda msfc nasa gov brian day writes rdouglas stsci edu rob douglas writes but try land shuttle with that big huge telescope the back and you could have problems the shuttle just isn designed land with that much weight the payload hst really that much heavier than spacelab can speak sheer mass but part the problem that hst wasn built ever brought back down not built for those kinds jolt forces and there support cradle for which additional weight that would required insisting perfect safety for people who don have the balls live the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg com don speak for others and they don speak for
sci.space	long term space voyanges and effect newsgroup article fie zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes response michael adams post vote for later sci space medicine similar newsgroup fro the discussion long term missions into space and there affects humans and such adams why bother with new newsgroup you want discuss the subject start discussing there enough traffic annoy the rest will let you know and then will time for new newsgroup well here goes the first item business establish the importance space life sciences the whole scheme humankind mean compared football and baseball the average joe schmoe doesn seem interested even curious about spaceflight think that this forum can make major change that lack insight and education all our own way can contribute comprehensive document which can released the general public around the world the document would scientifically analyze the technical aspects long term human habitation space believe that any long term space exploration program succeed need basically learn how engineer our own microworld the spacecraft only through the careful analyses engineering chemical biological and medical factors will good ecosystem created facilitate human life long duration flight would like see posts opinions regarding the most objective methods analyze the accepted scientific literature for technologies which can applied long duration spaceflight such detailed literature search would interest ourselves space advocates and clearly important existing space programs essence would dividing the space life science issues into various technical problems which could solved with various technologies this database acceptable solutions various problems could form the basis detailed discussions involving people from the bionet isunet and any other source eager hear your comments and see posts this thread
sci.space	gamma ray bursters where are they prb access digex com pat writes know not real close like slightly extra solar because have parallax measurements the bursts can only say that they are beyond about due the low accuracy position determination single detectors what wondering this people opinion new physics problem einstein got well known for solvingthe photoelectric effect copernicus started looking irregularities planetary motion this big enough problem create new area physics just little speculative thinking folks may new physics problem problem involving new physics however the data not good enough rule out the models which use old physics new physics big step and only tolerated when there alternative for example the dark matter problem there more the universe than meets the eye question comparable mystery grbs but have much better data regarding theoreticians postulate new particles all the time explain but one will actually believe that these particles are real until experimentalist several detects them the lab david palmer palmer alumni caltech edu palmer tgrs gsfc nasa gov
sci.space	hyperknowledge article apr embl heidelberg tuparev embl heidelberg georg tuparev writes announcement the hyperknowledge project for nextstep motivation are heterogeneous group scientists and students who feel that our work continuously hindered computer environments dominated incompatible scientific tools and monstrous software packages too often claiming everything what need object oriented scientific environment where the tools choose use are integrated without being parts closed system highly interactive and extendable both the addition our own specialized objects and combining the available tools graphically the use such environment should natural extension our work requiring very short learning phase and practically user documentation know this kinda off the subject sci space but not really want answer this for their well everyone else information what these people are proposing and large already exists and can purchased today called labview national instruments wonderful object oriented graphical programming language has been implemented both mac and vme unix boxes fare superior any programming approach that have ever seen and allowed decrease the software development time for our shuttle payloads percent this program not dependendant specific hardware and already has exensive analysis capability why invent the wheel platform that may not exist great idea but look out there what available today the hydrogen leak the shuttle was found using this software all ssme control and simulation studies along with the real testing msfc handled with labview there are tons applications with the ability create virtual instruments that can accomplish any specific custom task the maker desires with the addition ieee support the computer becomes virtual control station allowing the graphic representation remote instrumentation with serial support that instrument can anywhere the ground control software for the main control sedsat will utilize this approach dennis university alabama huntsville
sci.space	gamma ray bursters where are they article rlrpv access digex net prb access digex com pat writes this big enough problem create new area physics just little speculative thinking folks pat well pat for once agree with you and like your first idea that you had probably the gamma ray signature the warp transitions interstellar spacecraft well makes much sense some things was the first gamma ray burst conference here uah and had great fun watching the discomfiture many the gamma ray scientists much scruitiny was given the data reductions remember one person particular who passionately declared that the data was completely wrong there were explanation for the phenomena the smooth sky distribution heck even shoots down the warp transition theory the next conference soon and will endeavour keep touch with this fun subject dennis
sci.space	political banner space penelope sdsc edu jeff bytof sio writes propose that pepsico mcdonalds and other companies could put into orbit banners that have timely political messages such stop the slaughter bosnia how about end light pollution now your banner would have effect its subject but banner would david palmer palmer alumni caltech edu palmer tgrs gsfc nasa gov
sci.space	space surveillance one the main reasons nations like the and russia observe satellite that have been launched forbs system whick loft nuclear bombs into orbit which are planned detonated leo causing emp pulses interfering with the target command and control system
sci.space	gamma ray bursters where are they article apr stdvax gsfc nasa gov abdkw stdvax gsfc nasa gov david ward writes given that fact and the spacecraft attitude knowledge approx arcmin might able figure out how well batse can determine the location rotational gamma ray burster from knowledge the all sky map accuracy material for the other three instruments give accuracies the order fractions degree that any help but believe that there fundamental difference here the other three instruments are focusing instruments that more less form image positional errors are limited craft attitude and the resolving power the optics batse altogether different beast effectively just coincidence counters one each corner the craft positional information triangulated from the differential signal arrival times each the detectors positional error would predominantly determined timing errors and errors craft attitude since none the baste detectors have any independant angular resolution whatsoever they can not used determine parallax indeed parallax would just add very small component the positional error demonstrating that these puppies are beyond the oort cloud would require resolution the order arcseconds since the oort cloud postulated extend about parsec all together now parallax arc second parsec the distance object that demonstrates one arc second parallax with base line the degree accuracy reported above true going have add baste the pluto fast flyby get enough baseline the beauty baste that both gives positional information and watches the entire sky simultaneously realy handy combination when you have idea where the next burst coming from kevin
sci.space	what planets are habitable apr arc eds com steveg arc eds com writes article iyd ece cmu edu loss ece cmu edu doug loss writes dandridge cole and isaac asimov collaborated book titled habitable planets for man think should available most good libraries through inter library loan this the high school science version the original rand study stephen dole planets for man gives the harder numbers graphs such but predates michael hart later work continuously habitable zones this still print available other than loan remember reading this many years ago and still the best thing remember this vein insisting perfect safety for people who don have the balls live the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg com don speak for others and they don speak for
sci.space	hst servicing mission scheduled for days article apr samba oit unc edu bruce scott launchpad unc edu bruce scott writes boosting the hst carrying with shuttle would not damage then why couldn hst brought back earth and the repair job done here not sure this big issue but seems like might till now all forces applied the mirror and its mounting and nearly all forces have been applied along the telescope optical axis and against the mirror base reentry would apply forces along roughly the same axis but tending pull the mirror away from the mount and the landing would apply edge forces both the mirror and mount could that one both these would not survive greg greg titus gbt zia cray com compiler group cray research inc santa opinions expressed herein such they are are purely own
sci.space	gamma ray bursters where are they article rmh einn gap caltech edu kwp wag caltech edu kevin plaxco writes resolving power the optics batse altogether different beast effectively just coincidence counters one each corner the craft positional information triangulated from the differential signal arrival times each the detectors obviously not count rates are too low and signal rise times too long for this possible the cgro what meters long you need time accuracy nanoseconds this what batse actually does measure the relative strength each the detectors also function photon energy each the detectors does not have isotropic response this right one must model the scattering photons the material around each detector and even scattering photons off the earth atmosphere back onto the spacecraft believe they have now reduced the error about degrees paul dietz dietz rochester edu
sci.space	astronauts what does weightlessness feel like article apr morgan com jlieb morgan com jerry liebelson writes want know what weightlessness actually feels like for example there constant sensation falling yes weightlessness does feel like falling may feel strange first but the body does adjust the feeling not too different from that sky diving and what the motion sickness that some astronauts occasionally experience the body reaction strange environment appears induced partly physical discomfort and part mental distress some people are more prone than others like some people are more prone get sick roller coaster ride than others the mental part usually induced lack clear indication which way down the shuttle normally oriented with its cargo bay pointed towards earth the earth ground above the head the astronauts about the astronauts experience some form motion sickness and nasa has done numerous tests space try see how keep the number occurances down ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab telos the aweto from new zealand pasadena part caterpillar and part vegetable
sci.space	gamma ray bursters positional stuff henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes article apr vax mankato msus edu belgarath vax mankato msus edu writes actually advisor another classmate mine and were talking the other day about putting just one detector one the pluto satellites then realized that the satellite alone only carrying something like pounds well batse detector needs lead shielding protect and alone weighs about pounds itself actually the situation even worse than that the total mass the pluto fast flyby spacecraft only ish pounds and most that support equipment like power and communications the mass available for instruments maybe that don think batse will fit from the pluto fast flyby instrument definition research anouncemnet the instrument payload constraints are mass allocation kilograms lbs power allocation watts required instruments visible imaging system ccd optics mapping spectrometer hgcdte array energy resolution spectrometer resolution radio science ultrastable oscilator incorporated telecom system ultrastable means this doesn leave much room for payloads which are totally unrelated the mission the spacecraft addition the power will come from radioisotope thermal generator and the whole space craft will about feet diameter with booms which means there will strong gamma lines from and associated schmutz the background which tends reduce sensitivity somewhat would still nice and our group here goddard looking david palmer palmer alumni caltech edu palmer tgrs gsfc nasa gov
sci.space	gamma ray bursters where are they kwp wag caltech edu kevin plaxco writes article apr stdvax gsfc nasa gov abdkw stdvax gsfc nasa gov david ward writes demonstrating that these puppies are beyond the oort cloud would require resolution the order arcseconds since the oort cloud postulated extend about parsec all together now parallax arc second parsec the distance object that demonstrates one arc second parallax with base line according glossary astronomy and astrophysics parsec abbreviation for parallax second the distance which one astronomical unit subtends angle second arc george george krumins the serpent and the rainbow gfk uxa cso uiuc edu pufferfish observatory
sci.space	hst servicing mission scheduled for days article apr mksol dseg com mccall mksol dseg com fred mccall writes apr lambda msfc nasa gov bday lambda msfc nasa gov brian day writes rdouglas stsci edu rob douglas writes but try land shuttle with that big huge telescope the back and you could have problems the shuttle just isn designed land with that much weight the payload hst really that much heavier than spacelab can speak sheer mass but part the problem that hst wasn built ever brought back down not built for those kinds jolt forces and there support cradle for which additional weight that would required just throw out there the mass the telescope not know what space lab weighs but believe less can anyone verify also remember that weight was not the only concern many others have noted just one possible concern was responding statement that you can boost why can you land those are too different problems rob rob douglas space san martin drive software engineer telescope baltimore usa advance planning systems branch science phone internet rdouglas stsci edu institute fax disclaimer type thingie these opinions are mine unless course they fall under the standard intellectual property guidelines but with intellect doubt besides was useful intellectual property you think would type here rob douglas space san martin drive software engineer telescope baltimore usa advance planning systems branch science phone
sci.space	displaying compressed voyager images mac sorry lost track who asked the question originally our news server gsfc keeps things around for tremendously short periods time but wanted certain before replied someone asked about displaying the compressed images from the voyager imaging roms mac peter ford mit pointed out decompression program available via ftp sorry don remember the name the node offhand although mit edu any case though one the mac display programs rom browser dana swift does display the compressed images directly the program shareware and distributed nssdc for nominal reproduction costs shipping memory serves this does not cover the shareware price which should dana for his diligent work and upgrades however request current pricing information information about available display software catalogs data from nssdc contact our user support office national space science data center coordinated request and user support office cruso mail code nasa goddard space flight center greenbelt phone fax edwin bell mail mail code span ncf bell national space science nssdc bell data center nssdca bell nasa nssdcb bell goddard space flight center internet bell nssdca gsfc nasa gov greenbelt
sci.space	mars exploration lecture the aiaa san gabriel valley section sponsoring the following lecture mars exploration the jet propulsion lab admission free and open the public the next frontier the challenge mars exploration date may time location von karman auditorium jet propulsion lab oak grove drive pasadena california the following five speakers will featured science fiction perspective tom mcdonaugh science fiction writer mars observer arden albee project scientist mars observer jpl mars arthur lane instrument manager mars jpl mars environmental survey mesur richard cook mission designer jpl manned mission mars robert zubrin senior engineer martin marietta astronautics for more information contact aiaa mark leon ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab telos the aweto from new zealand pasadena part caterpillar and part vegetable
sci.space	vandalizing the sky mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov keith mancus writes jeff cook ftcollinsco ncr com jeff cook writes people primitive tribes out the middle nowhere they look that has sort happened for real back the travellers the sudan would find strange cigar shaped designs native huts when asked the locals would say was picture the great omen that appeared the sky this was zepplin flying from bulgaria german east africa with supplies and back since was fooled the british secret service dave stephenson geological survey canada ottawa ontario canada internet stephens geod emr
sci.space	long term human missions article apr wisipc weizmann ward pashosh wisdom weizmann ward paul wrote calculators teflon your eggs don stick the pan pacemakers kept grandfather alive from until don think touting contributions good idea world war produced many many beneficial spinoffs radar jet aeroplanes rocket technology don think anyone would argue that world war was and itself good thing you want people back the space program must good thing and itself disagree with what tout although agree that the space program inherently good thing most people today only care about what will cost and what for and could care less about whether something simply worthwhile and itself our society has become increasingly geared toward the short term which you could read now they couldn care less about next week much less next century they want something show for the expenditure and they want now think should tell them about the things that they are using now that are spinoffs the space program that the only way you can prove its worth them and they vote and pay taxes too the continued existence the space program relies upon that money just btw don forget velcro bcnu john gladu systems support center baylor college medicine internet jgladu bcm tmc edu voice mail one baylor plaza houston texas opinions expressed are just that obviously
sci.space	gamma ray bursters where are they article steinly apr topaz ucsc edu steinly topaz ucsc edu steinn sigurdsson writes the problem with oort cloud sources that absolutely plausible mechanism has been proposed would have involve new physics far can tell closest conventional oort sources model field pinching comets got too many holes count but least was good try you have plausible model for grb astronomical distances recent observations have just about ruled out the merging neutron star hypothesis which had lot problems anyhow have look for implausible models and what fundamentally allowed independent models paper the possibility grb the oort cloud just came through the astrophysics abstract service get copy this paper send message astro babbage sissa with the subject line get here the abstract that paper the currently favored explanation for the origin grbs puts them cosmological distances but long there distance indicator these events all possible sources which are isotropically distributed should remain under consideration this why the oort cloud comets kept the list although there known mechanism for generating grbs from cometary nuclei unlikely may seem the possibility that grbs originate the solar cometary cloud cannot excluded until disproved use the available data the distribution grbs the batse catalogue march and the catalogue cometary orbits marsden and williams investigate whether there any observational indication for correlations between the angular distributions grbs and comets aphelia assuming that the distribution aphelia direction reflect least some extent true variations the column density the oort cloud also apply the vov test both distributions have performed variety statistical tests kolmogorov smirnov test for the distributions galactic latitude chi test for the spherical multiple moments and cross correlation analysis including testing sub samples for isolating the effect possible observational biases these tests imply that unlikely that the two distributions agree but the statistical significance not sufficient for ruling out any connection with complete confidence performed monte carlo simulations which show that only when the number bursts exceeds sim possible rule out correlation between the angular distributions currently only the combination these tests with the large disagreement found for the vov parameter which makes the oort cloud comets unlikely related grbs
sci.space	vandalizing the sky article apr csa lbl gov sichase csa lbl gov scott chase writes article pgf srl cacs usl edu pgf srl cacs usl edu phil fraering writes jeff cook ftcollinsco ncr com jeff cook writes people primitive tribes out the middle nowhere they look and see can budweiser flying across the sky seen that movie already actually the idea like most good ideas comes from jules verne not the gods must crazy comment was off the top head wasn aware that had already been thought guess true that there nothing new under the sun this case the flying billboards jeff cook jeff cook ftcollinsco ncr com
sci.space	two line orbital element set space shuttle the most current orbital elements from the norad two line element sets are carried the celestial bbs and are updated daily when possible documentation and tracking software are also available this system service the satellite user community the most current elements for the current shuttle mission are provided below the celestial bbs may accessed hours day bps using data bits stop bit parity element sets also updated daily shuttle elements and some documentation and software are also available via anonymous ftp from archive afit mil the directory pub space sts kelso assistant professor space operations tkelso afit mil air force institute technology
sci.space	temperature the dark sky does anyone have reference something can look not just your own recollections have few those myself the temperature the night sky seen from space note not talking about the temperature the microwave background radiation there are more things the sky than just the mbr what after total blackbody temperature what thermal radiator would see disregarding shielding against the sun and nearby large warm objects not sure this will help you but the local interstellar radiation field has been measured and modeled various groups remember things correctly the models involved contributions from three different sources there obvious temperature background radiation our local area however the following references give the interstellar radiation density function wavelength and you can integrate and average appropriate manner get effective temperature you like witt and johnson astrophys henry astrophys mathis astron astrophys you can see the references are out date but they might get you started hope this helps julie
sci.space	gamma ray bursters where are they article ethanb apr ptolemy astro washington edu ethanb ptolemy astro washington edu ethan bradford writes article steinly apr topaz ucsc edu steinly topaz ucsc edu steinn sigurdsson writes the problem with oort cloud sources that absolutely plausible mechanism has been proposed would have involve new physics far can tell closest conventional oort sources model field pinching comets got too many holes count but least was good try you have plausible model for grb astronomical distances don have any plausible models for grbs any distances recent observations have just about ruled out the merging neutron star hypothesis which had lot problems anyhow have look for implausible models and what fundamentally allowed independent models hmm the superbowl burst has been claimed press releases cast doubt the merging hypothesis from what read and haven seen the papers only the press say consistent with some the merging models paper the possibility grb the oort cloud just came through the astrophysics abstract service get copy this here the abstract that paper indicator these events all possible sources which are isotropically distributed should remain under consideration this why the oort cloud comets kept the list although there known mechanism for generating grbs from cometary nuclei unlikely may seem the possibility that grbs originate the solar cometary cloud cannot excluded until disproved this does not propose mechanism for grbs the oort and anti matter annihilation does not fit the spectra least far understand annihilation spectra big difference that ignoring the question how you fit distribution the oort distribution when the oort distribution not well known particular comet aphelia which are not well known are not good measure the oort cloud distribution steinn sigurdsson lick observatory steinly lick ucsc edu standard disclaimer the laws gravity are very very strict and you just bending them for your own benefit
sci.space	vandalizing the sky wondering vandalize the proper word use this situation dictionary defines vandalism the willful malicious destructuion public private property especially anything beautiful artisitc would agree the sky beautiful but not that public private property personally prefer natural skies far from city lights and sans aircraft however there also something said for being able look into the sky and see satellite many people get real kick out especially they haven seen one before josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu find way make one attributed hannibal
sci.space	mars observer update forwarded from the mars observer project mars observer status report april pdt flight sequence active tuesday april with activities beginning shortly before yesterday commanded the spacecraft execute series slews and rolls provide the mag magnetometer team data points varying spacecraft attitudes and orientations for the purpose better characterizing the spacecraft generated magnetic field and its effect their instrument the spacecraft was commanded back sun star init state establish inertial reference transition back array normal spin began after which the sequence powered the board transmitter telemetry reacquisition occurred approximately the kbs science and engineering downlink data rate the high gain antenna subsystem engineers report that all systems appear nominal the command terminate using the low gain antenna for uplink was sent uplink and downlink are currently via the hga mag calibration data has been recorded digital tape recorders and playback dtr scheduled take place tomorrow morning between and playback dtr scheduled take place tomorrow evening beginning and ending friday dtr playback will performed via the high gain antenna bits per second upon verification successful dtr playbacks downlink will maintained the rate the mag cal activity timeline ends shortly before friday morning ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab telos the aweto from new zealand pasadena part caterpillar and part vegetable
sci.space	level from harrisd mit edu david harris message mit edu wingert vnet ibm com subject level shuttle software work bret you are familiar with the software work that received the level rating could you post description and some references think many people would interested know just what the ibm team that effort doing differently from most other organizations projects that earned them that rating familiar with the project the onboard shuttle flight software project this software controls the space shuttle during all dynamic phases well orbit has ultra high reliability and extremely low error rates there have been several papers published the subject and collect some references there may article the ibm systems journal late early there magic formula did with dedicated and disciplined folks who worked put together process that finds and removes errors and corrected based errors that escape present one day overview our process periodically interested folks the next one may washington can fax specifics those who are interested bret wingert wingert vnet ibm com fax
sci.space	gamma ray bursters where are they article rmh einn gap caltech edu kwp wag caltech edu kevin plaxco writes article apr stdvax gsfc nasa gov abdkw stdvax gsfc nasa gov david ward writes but believe that there fundamental difference here the other three instruments are focusing instruments that more less form image positional errors are limited craft attitude and the resolving power the optics batse altogether different beast effectively just coincidence counters one each corner the craft positional information triangulated from the differential signal arrival times each the detectors this not quite right the differential arrival time techinique requires interplanetary baselines get good positions the differential arrival the eight detectors differ nanoseconds this smaller than batse microsecond timing capabilities batse ulysses and mars obsverver are used for this technique each batse detector does not have full sky field view the sensitivity each detector decreases with increasing angle incidence the burst position the sky determined comparing the count rates different detectors pat
sci.space	command loss timer galileo update article apr bnr jcobban bnr jim cobban writes having read the past about the fail safe mechanisms spacecraft had assumed that the command loss timer had that sort function however always find disturbing the oxymoron command that does something the command changes the behavior status the spacecraft not command know its semantics but the doesn anything the command loss timer simply looking for command any command simply spacecraft command that drops bits into the big bit bucket the sky also get used timekeepers provide millisecond delays between command sequences used the thruster preps gro compton and verify command links the beginning tdrs events all all rather useful command and intelligent fdc test galileo the command loss timer david gsfc still looking for gro data even though the wrong david
sci.space	hst servicing mission scheduled for days article apr samba oit unc edu bruce scott launchpad unc edu bruce scott writes boosting the hst carrying with shuttle would not damage then why couldn hst brought back earth and the repair job done here because two shuttle flights would required adding the alredy horrendous expense don think reboost exercise analogous shuttle landing launch terms stresses misalignments etc would think the reboost gentile push where landing then launch two jolts which would put more mechanical stress the instruments additionally there might concern about landing loads the shuttle the event laden landing finally probably some thought went into possible contamination problems the instruments came back earth course the cost two shuttle launches good reason avoid something that might done one shuttle launch here hoping cepi gang gets the job done right the first time david gsfc used work for frank cepollina
sci.space	hst servicing mission scheduled for days apr lambda msfc nasa gov bday lambda msfc nasa gov brian day writes rdouglas stsci edu rob douglas writes but try land shuttle with that big huge telescope the back and you could have problems the shuttle just isn designed land with that much weight the payload hst really that much heavier than spacelab hst about lbs that doesn include the cradle that would have been the cargo bay when was deployed spacelab sts was lbs according the press kit someone else pointed out they had been unable deploy for some reason that would have had land with still the cargo bay and this was planned for contingency this not problem for the shuttle though would eliminate ksc landing site they still have edwards when landing with something like spacelab the cargo bay garym gary morris internet garym alsys com teleuse development uucp uunet alsys com garym alsys group telesoft phone san diego usa fax
sci.space	interstellar notes pluto charon talk and pluto mission sci space readers can skip the first paragraph yesterday response henry spencer question about the temperature blackbody interstellar space said dust grains acts blackbodies and they well was dead wrong our local interstellar dust expert bruce draine has informed that dust grains aren good radiators the far which why they are warm actually the ambient radiation field from distant stars can bring true blackbody only kelvin sorry henry and anyone else misled obviously time for take another ism class other news alan stern the southwest research institute gave talk the pluto charon binary system yesterday gave brief overview the currently accepted system parameters volume ratio about mass ratio about plus lots more and then gave his thoughts the formation pluto charon his idea that there were lots and lots small planetesimals the outer solar system with masses distributed power law some kind over time the planetesimals accreted into larger bodies most got scattered out the solar system close encounters with jupiter and saturn but many accreted into the gas giants especially uranus and neptune large planetesimal was captured neptune call triton captured how perhaps collision with smaller already existing neptunian moon perhaps very close passage through neptune atmosphere mondo aerobraking notes that the two recently discovered kuiper belt objects and plus chiron and pholus are all about the same mass and identifies this group one accretion down from the larger bodies triton and pluto charon pluto charon thinks formed when impacting body hit proto pluto knocking some material into ring around pluto which later accreted charon similar ideas about the formation earth moon there good evidence from spectra that the surfaces pluto and charon are very different pluto has methane frost charon doesn which can used evidence for the impact theory believes that there may around pluto chiron sized objects remaining relatively stable dynamical zone just outside neptune orbit beyond and are the first members this population found his model note that such bodies will very dark since their surfaces are covered with methane frost will have photolyzed into very dark long chain hydrocarbons now the reason that pluto has such high albedo around think that its surface warms just enough around perihelion sublimate and when the atmosphere freezes out again thirty years later forms bright new frost any bodies much farther away than are going very hard see hope haven made any errors the transcription you see howling mistake undoubtedly mine not his the way one the top guns behind the pluto fast flyby mission think and said that the current plans are use titan send the probe just about rectilinear trajectory pluto were speaking loosely the time like use proton which gives slightly smaller velocity but costs much less his figures million for titan launches there will two separate probes launched separately million for proton launches told story about how the soviets originally offered sell proton launches for million each but were forced increase their prices the order allowed the marketplace just telling you what said michael michael richmond this the heart that broke finger richmond astro princeton edu
sci.space	long term human missions article apr rpslmc edu rek siss robert kaye writes just few contributions from the space program regular society calculators teflon your eggs don stick the pan sorry split hairs but just read the making the atomic bomb that teflon was developed during world war sealant was needed for the tubing which uranium hexafluoride passed was gradually enriched difussion very corrosive and some very inert yet flexible material was needed for the seals pacemakers kept grandfather alive from until alejo hausner hausner qucis queensu richard rhodes the making the atomic bomb simon and
sci.space	command loss timer galileo update article apr bnr jcobban bnr jim cobban writes having read the past about the fail safe mechanisms spacecraft had assumed that the command loss timer had that sort function however always find disturbing the oxymoron command that does something the command changes the behavior status the spacecraft not command course this terminology comes from jet propulsion laboratory which has nothing with jet propulsion don know where you got this idea from jpl history dates back the when caltech professor named von karman conducted experiments rocket propulsion with group graduate students the present site the jet propulsion laboratory the army started funding the laboratory and had jurisdiction untill the late when nasa took over the early research conducted the laboratory led many applications the first being jet assisted takeoff rockets for aircraft think this should explain where jpl got name should know worked there for five wonderful years mike jim cobban jcobban bnr phone bnr ltd bnrgate bnr bcars jcobban fax
sci.space	galileo update forwarded from neal ausman galileo mission director galileo mission director status report post launch april spacecraft april and delta differenced one way range dor passes were performed over dss goldstone madrid meter antennas and dss goldstone canberra meter antennas respectively initial results indicate the delta dor pass april was unsuccessful due ground station hardware problems but the one april was successfully performed april cruise science memory readout mro was performed for the magnetometer mag instrument analysis indicates the data was received properly april the spare power relay contacts were commanded closed via the spacecraft stored sequence these relays were commanded closed the cds command data subsystem prior launch and were again commanded closed preclude the possibility jupiter the pps relays wiring being source internal electrostatic charge iesd april cruise science memory readouts mro were performed for the extreme ultraviolet spectrometer euv dust detector dds and magnetometer mag instruments preliminary analysis indicates the data was received properly during the period from april april navigation cycle was performed this navigation cycle provided near continuous acquisition two way doppler and ranging data during three consecutive passes the spacecraft over dss dss and dss april real time commands were sent test slew the radio relay antenna rra preparation for the mini sequence slew test april the rra was slewed from approximately degrees from stow approximately degrees preliminary analysis indicated the antenna slewed about degrees which was well within the predicted range the rra was commanded back approximately degrees from stow preliminary analysis indicated the antenna reached about degrees also well within the predicted range the rra motor temperature was degree the start the activity and had increased degrees its completion after verifying proper rra slewing the rra slew test mini sequence was uplinked the spacecraft for execution april upon successful uplink delayed action command dac was sent which will reposition the stator may its initial pre test position also dac was sent turn the two way noncoherent twnc april prior the start the rra slew test mini sequence april command was sent reset the command loss timer hours its planned value during this mission phase april the rra slew test executed nominally the spacecraft under stored sequence control performed six rra slews starting about degrees from stow and going degrees back degrees then degrees back degrees then degrees and then back degrees all the slews were well within the predicted range the rra motor temperature was degrees the start the activity and had increased degrees its completion after completion the rra slews real time commands were sent reconfigure back the pre test configuration the bus imbalance measurements have not exhibited significant change greater than throughout this period the measurement reads volts the measurement reads volts these measurements are consistent with the model developed the special anomaly team the spacecraft status april follows system power margin watts spin configuration dual spin spin rate sensor rpm star scanner spacecraft attitude approximately degrees off sun lagging and degrees off earth leading downlink telemetry rate antenna bps coded lga general thermal control all temperatures within acceptable range rpm tank pressures all within acceptable range orbiter science instruments powered are the pws euv uvs epd mag hic and dds probe rrh powered off temperatures within acceptable range cmd loss timer setting hours time initiation hours gds ground data systems the first galileo gds test the mgds command system cmd took place april with dss madrid meter antenna the test went well and demonstrated that the new command system interfaced with the new dsn deep space network group command processor assembly cpa the test was successful and the next test for cmd scheduled for may with dss goldstone meter antenna the april system engineers monthly report semr ground system development office gsdo mmr was conducted thursday april review current project and institutional dsn and moso system status was conducted going cruise development plus the gsdo phase and delivery schedules past months accomplishments and potential problem areas were discussed significant schedule changes significant problems were reported trajectory noon thursday april the galileo spacecraft trajectory status was follows distance from earth distance from sun heliocentric speed per hour distance from jupiter round trip light time minutes seconds special topic april total real time commands have been transmitted galileo since launch these were initiated the sequence design process and initiated the real time command process the past week real time commands were transmitted were initiated the sequence design process and one initiated the real time command process major command activities included commands perform the initial rra slew test uplink the rra slew test mini sequence dacs reposition the stator and turn the twnc reset the command loss timer and execute the rra slew test ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab telos the aweto from new zealand pasadena part caterpillar and part vegetable
sci.space	gamma ray bursters where are they prb access digex com pat writes know not real close like slightly extra solar because have parallax measurements the bursts correct have parallax measurements the bursts therefore can tell whether they slightly extra solar not which means that parallax can tell whether not real close phil fraering seems like every day find out all sorts stuff pgf srl cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man
sci.space	hyperknowledge article apr judy edu wingo cspara decnet fedex msfc nasa gov writes article apr embl heidelberg tuparev embl heidelberg georg tuparev writes announcement the hyperknowledge project for nextstep know this kinda off the subject sci space but not really want answer this for their well everyone else information what these people are proposing and large already exists and can purchased today called labview national instruments wonderful object wonderful object oriented graphical programming language some lines deleted afraid you are mis directed nextstep operating system opposed package have read little about but since steve jobs does not seem have the marketing capabilities bill gates info limited probably why the far inferior windows going more widely distributed but that another flame ridden story some the innovative features nextstep are binary compatibility across platforms you can just copy your program from sparc and would run opposed buying the version the package ported graphical object oriented design its all wsiwig postscript supports parallel hetrogeneous processing and best all based around the mach micro kernel you can make look like unix with dos even vms you feel the need package out there comes even close hope people will subscribe the hyperknowledge project and nextstep finally takes off lifetime mail ata etemadi blackett laboratory space and atmospheric physics group imperial college science technology and medicine internet arpanet earn bitnet atae spva ata mssl ucl span spva atae msslc atae
sci.space	gamma ray bursters where are they ethanb ptolemy astro washington edu ethan bradford writes wampyr uow edu walker andrew john writes also they did come from the oort cloud would expect see the same from other stars oort clouds that very good point perhaps none the nearby stars have oort clouds alpha centauri multiple star system you wouldn expect oort cloud sure about that maybe proxima might cause problems but oort cloud distances and together look like point source besides even the solar system oort cloud unstable over geologic time right and needs replentished from somewhere else like the short period comets the kupier belt maybe misremembering something read heard somewhere what the nearest single star that likely have planetary system until able perform broad band survey nearby stars detect planets won know enough say whether not single star has planets and likely find out about the close ones first heck neutron stars can have planets anything can have planets was that discovery disconfirmed phil fraering seems like every day find out all sorts stuff pgf srl cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man
sci.space	gamma ray bursters positional stuff belgarath vax mankato msus edu writes actually advisor another classmate mine and were talking the other day about putting just one detector one the pluto satellites then realized that the satellite alone only carrying something like pounds well batse detector needs lead shielding protect and alone weighs about pounds itself decided against jeremy are you talking about single batse component the whole thing you could propose batse probe launch two three with ion drive various planetary trajectories your resolution increaces the more they spaced apart you could probably cheaply eject them from the solar system with enough flybys and patience things would start out slow then slowly get better and better resolution phil fraering seems like every day find out all sorts stuff pgf srl cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man
sci.space	two line orbital element set space shuttle the most current orbital elements from the norad two line element sets are carried the celestial bbs and are updated daily when possible documentation and tracking software are also available this system service the satellite user community the most current elements for the current shuttle mission are provided below the celestial bbs may accessed hours day bps using data bits stop bit parity element sets also updated daily shuttle elements and some documentation and software are also available via anonymous ftp from archive afit mil the directory pub space sts kelso assistant professor space operations tkelso afit mil air force institute technology
sci.space	why not give billion first year long moon residents original wats scicom alphacdc com day wats scicom alphacdc com apr wats scicom alphacdc com wrote all wac wats scicom alphacdc com bruce watson via kralizec wac the apollo program cost something like billion time when wac the value dollar was worth more than now one would wac take the offer assume inflation since that would worth about reckon moon mission today could cost only thats factor ten reduction cost might possible reduce that number futher using few shortcuts russian rockets asuming gets built think the delta clipper could very well achive the goal ralph golded origin vulcan world sydney australia
sci.space	hst servicing mission scheduled for days regarding the feasability retrieving the hst for repair and relaunching caution speculation mode engaged there another consideration that hasn been mentioned yet expect that retrieving hst would involve damaging considerably order return its cradle the cargo bay most the deployed items antennas and especially the solar arays probably are not retractable into their fully stowed position even hand they would have removed the astronauts the only advantage that this might yield that could put new panels that don ring due thermal cycle stresses also expect that has been discussed the landing loads the hst optics structure big issue but that the reentry loads are much less can the moveable optical components even caged assume that they were caged for launch michael corvin zwork starfighter den mmc com martin marietta astronautics views not martin marietta
sci.space	long term space voyanges and effect newsgroup article hsc usc edu khayash hsc usc edu ken hayashida writes the first item business establish the importance space life sciences the whole scheme humankind mean compared football and baseball the average joe schmoe doesn seem interested even curious about spaceflight disagree think the average joe interested curious about spaceflight but sees elitist activity not one which ever going participate all our own way can contribute comprehensive document which can released the general public around the world the document would scientifically analyze the technical aspects long term human habitation space why the general public going interested the technical details long term space habitation like the idea the study but should released other scientists and engineers who will able use you want general public document you need more general publication believe that any long term space exploration program succeed need basically learn how engineer our own microworld the spacecraft only through the careful analyses engineering chemical biological and medical factors will good ecosystem created facilitate human life long duration flight one working controlled ecological life support systems engineering the microworld isn the problem the problem understanding the basic chemical biological and medical factors able engineer them efficiently for example the only way know how produce food from plants and animals food synthesis not very far advanced have orbit farm well that obviously not very efficient use technology reduce the mass and grow plants hydroponically instead using dirt this where the engineering comes but new technologies bring new basic questions that don have the answers like dirt can grow tomatoes and lettuce right beside each other but hydroponics turns out that you can that the lettuce growth stunted when grown the same hydroponic solution tomatoes now you have consider what other plants are going have similar interactions this means some basic applied scientific research and that what needs done with all technologies that have been developed far also need find out how they interact together that where are now would like see posts opinions regarding the most objective methods analyze the accepted scientific literature for technologies which can applied long duration spaceflight first you need the literature search there lot information out there maybe should just pick specific area long term habitation this could useful especially make available the net then can look methods analyzing the technologies such detailed literature search would interest ourselves space advocates and clearly important existing space programs essence would dividing the space life science issues into various technical problems which could solved with various technologies this database acceptable solutions various problems could form the basis detailed discussions involving people from the bionet isunet and any other source unless there unbelievable outpouring interest this the net think should develop detailed data base the literature search first then accomplish that can real analysis the data base itself could useful for future engineers that response ken what you think tim
sci.space	abyss breathing fluids the forever war one favorite scifi books had passage devoted breathing fluids the idea was protect people from the high accelerations required for interstellar travel emersing the passengers dry cleaning fluid saturated with oxygen plenty very imaginative ideas this book would certainly recommend won the hugo and the nebula awards regards ata
sci.space	alternative heavy element creation universe biological alchemy another form cold fusion alternative heavy element creation universe very simple experiment can demonstrate prove the fact biological transmutations reactions like etc described the book biological transmutations louis kervran edition best and chapter the book the secret life plants peter tompkins and christopher bird obtain good sample plant seeds all the same kind some kinds might work better that others divide the sample into two groups equal weight and number sprout one group distilled water filter paper for three four weeks separately incinerate both groups weigh the residue from each group the residue the sprouted group will usually weigh least several percent more than the other group analyze quantitatively the residue each group for mineral content some the mineral atoms the sprouted group have been transmuted into heavier mineral elements fusing with atoms oxygen hydrogen carbon nitrogen etc biological transmutations occur routinely even our own bodies ingesting source organic silicon silicon with carbon such horsetail extract radishes can speed healing broken bones via the reaction much faster than merely ingesting the calcium directly some mineral deposits the ground are formed micro organisms fusing together atoms silicon carbon nitrogen oxygen hydrogen etc the two reactions micro organisms cause stone sickness statues building bricks etc the reaction catalysed very hot iron creates carbon monoxide poison hazard for welder operators and people near woodstoves even properly sealed ones some bacteria can even neutralize radioactivity all these things and more happen spite the currently accepted laws physics including the law which says that atomic fusion requires extremely high temperatures and pressures biological transmutations and their applications chemistry physics biology ecology medicine nutrition agrigulture geology edition louis kervran active member new york academy science pages illustrated swan house publishing box binghamton the secret life plants peter tompkins and christopher bird pages harper row new york chapters and are about radionics entire book fascinating for more information answers your questions etc please consult cited sources the two books altered reproduction and dissemination this important information encouraged robert mcelwaine physics and astronomy
sci.space	philosophy quest how boldly there are number philosophical questions that would like ask encounter life form during our space exploration how determine should capture imprison and then discect encounter civilization that suffering economicly will expend resources from earth help them with all the deseases currently have that are deadly and undetectable what will done ensure that more new deadly deseases aren brought back that our deseases don destroy life elsewhere have day bobo
sci.space	commercials the moon daimi aau hans erik martino hansen writes how about coca cola logo the moon easy way target billions people arthur clarke was way ahead you this one wrote short story title the describing exactly your proposal tom reilly department geology arizona state university
sci.space	single launch space station andy cohen cohen ssdgwy mdc com writes the single launch core station concept shuttle external tank and solid rocket boosters would used launch the station into orbit shuttle main engines would mounted the tail the station module for launch and jettisoned after separation why jettison the ssmes why not hold them and have shuttle bring them down use spares karl sold soul uncle sam now marked down for resale
sci.space	nasa budget and sts costs what fraction the nasa workforce civil servant opposed contractor and what are the rules reduction work force for civil servants say the shuttle program terminated how much payroll reduced and how steinn sigurdsson saw two shooting stars last night lick observatory wished them but they were only satellites steinly lick ucsc edu wrong wish space hardware standard disclaimer wish wish wish you care
sci.space	what planets are habitable article jpg apr holly bnr jpg bnr jonathan gibbons writes would appreciate any thoughts what makes planet habitable for humans making asumptions that life and similar atmosphere evolve given range physical aspects the planet the question what physical aspects simply disallow earth like conditions temperature range where temp purely dependant dist from the sun and the suns temperature atmospheric presure know nothing human tolerance planetary mass again gravity surface important how much can human bodies take day after day also how does the mass effect atmosphere thinking planets between and times mass the earth suppose density should important well climate etc does not concern nor does axial tilt etc etc just the above three factors and how they relate one another jonathan jonathan interesting questions some wonder whether not the moon could have ever supported atmosphere interested knowing what our geology environmental sciences friends think for human tolerances the best example human endurance terms altitude low atmospheric pressure and lower oxygen partial pressure opinion the scaling everest without oxygen assistance this was accomplished team mountaineers who trained high altitudes for quite awhile think few months and then were flown helicopter from that training altitude the equivalent altitude mount everest where they began the ascent our planet highest peak without oxygen tanks this quite feat physiological endurance because you tried feet and exert ourselves would probably pass out get altitude sick and could even die from cerebral edema this the limit low pressure high pressure situations would limited the duration time which takes slowly acclimate higher pressure skin divers would know alot about high pressure situations and could tell you about how they safely make deep dives without getting the bends some military experiments have put people under several atmospheres pressure not sure what the high limit was because the papers aren front usually certain point the nitrogen the air becomes toxic the body and you start acting idiotic divers call this nitrogen narcosis those afflicted can very dangerous and irrational things like taking off diving mask and oxygen tank order talk fish feet under water hope any diving folk can elaborate this matter not diving expert mars cannot support human life without pressurization because the atmosphere too thin our earth atmospheric density addition the mars atmosphere mostly carbon dioxide basically you would need pressure suit there you die from the low pressure interesting huh ken khayash hsc usc edu
sci.space	rocket types the other week saw program about the american space industry and nasa said that the they developed rocket that used ions nuclear particles for propolsion the government however didn give them billion for the developement full scale rocket did anybody see this program not has anybody heard the particle propolsion system thanx glen balmer
sci.space	hst servicing mission scheduled for days article apr den mmc com zwork starfighter den mmc com michael corvin writes regarding the feasability retrieving the hst for repair and relaunching caution speculation mode engaged there another consideration that hasn been mentioned yet expect that retrieving hst would involve damaging considerably order return its cradle the cargo bay most the deployed items antennas and especially the solar arays probably are not retractable into their fully stowed position even hand they would have removed the astronauts the only advantage that this might yield that could put new panels that don ring due thermal cycle stresses also expect that has been discussed the landing loads the hst optics structure big issue but that the reentry loads are much less can the moveable optical components even caged assume that they were caged for launch would nice someone here from the hst program was talking instead all the speculation that going here from what understand from frank six the marshall space flight center there insrmountable problem bringing hst back was designed that way begin with also understanding that the solar arrays will one the items replaced this mission the originals were built brit aerospace and think the new ones are too currently working with the guys msfc that are charge the hst power system although have not spoken with them long time about hst dennis university alabama huntsville
sci.space	jpl info summary our solar system glance this file and other text and image files from jpl missions are available from the jpl info public access computer site reachable internet via anonymous ftp pubinfo jpl nasa gov dialup modem bits per second parameters our solar system glance information summary pms jpl june jpl nasa national aeronautics and space administration jet propulsion laboratory california institue technology pasadena california for printed copy this publication contact the public mail office the nasa center your geographic region introduction from our small world have gazed upon the cosmic ocean for untold thousands years ancient astronomers observed points light that appeared move among the stars they called these objects planets meaning wanderers and named them after roman deities jupiter king the gods mars the god war mercury messenger the gods venus the god love and beauty and saturn father jupiter and god agriculture the stargazers also observed comets with sparkling tails and meteors shooting stars apparently falling from the sky science flourished during the european renaissance fundamental physical laws governing planetary motion were discovered and the orbits the planets around the sun were calculated the century astronomers pointed new device called the telescope the heavens and made startling discoveries but the years since have amounted golden age solar system exploration advancements rocketry after world war enabled our machines break the grip earth gravity and travel the moon and other planets the united states has sent automated spacecraft then human crewed expeditions explore the moon our automated machines have orbited and landed venus and mars explored the sun environment observed comets and made close range surveys while flying past mercury jupiter saturn uranus and neptune these travelers brought quantum leap our knowledge and understanding the solar system through the electronic sight and other senses our automated spacecraft color and complexion have been given worlds that for centuries appeared earth bound eyes fuzzy disks indistinct points light and dozens previously unknown objects have been discovered future historians will likely view these pioneering flights through the solar system some the most remarkable achievements the century automated spacecraft the national aeronautics and space administration nasa automated spacecraft for solar system exploration come many shapes and sizes while they are designed fulfill separate and specific mission objectives the craft share much common each spacecraft consists various scientific instruments selected for particular mission supported basic subsystems for electrical power trajectory and orientation control well for processing data and communicating with earth electrical power required operate the spacecraft instruments and systems nasa uses both solar energy from arrays photovoltaic cells and small nuclear generators power its solar system missions rechargeable batteries are employed for backup and supplemental power imagine that spacecraft has successfully journeyed millions miles through space fly but one time near planet only have its cameras and other sensing instruments pointed the wrong way speeds past the target help prevent such mishap subsystem small thrusters used control spacecraft the thrusters are linked with devices that maintain constant gaze selected stars just earth early seafarers used the stars navigate the oceans spacecraft use stars maintain their bearings space with the subsystem locked onto fixed points reference flight controllers can keep spacecraft scientific instruments pointed the target body and the craft communications antennas pointed toward earth the thrusters can also used fine tune the flight path and speed the spacecraft ensure that target body encountered the planned distance and the proper trajectory between and nasa spacecraft were dispatched study the moon and the solar environment they also scanned the inner planets other than earth mercury venus and mars these three worlds and our own are known the terrestrial planets because they share solid rock composition for the early planetary reconnaissance missions nasa employed highly successful series spacecraft called the mariners their flights helped shape the planning later missions between and seven mariner missions conducted the first surveys our planetary neighbors space all the mariners used solar panels their primary power source the first and the final versions the spacecraft had two wings covered with photovoltaic cells other mariners were equipped with four solar panels extending from their octagonal bodies although the mariners ranged from the mariner venus spacecraft weighing kilograms pounds the mariner mars orbiter weighing kilograms pounds their basic design remained quite similar throughout the program the mariner venus spacecraft for example had originally been backup for the mariner mars flyby the mariner spacecraft sent venus and mercury used components left over from the mariner mars orbiter program nasa launched pioneer jupiter spacecraft interest was shifting four the outer planets jupiter saturn uranus and neptune giant balls dense gas quite different from the terrestrial worlds had already surveyed four nasa spacecraft all two pioneers and two voyagers were sent the tour the outer regions our solar system because the distances involved these travelers took anywhere from months years reach their destinations barring faster spacecraft they will eventually become the first human artifacts journey distant stars because the sun light becomes faint the outer solar system these travelers not use solar power but instead operate electricity generated heat from the decay radioisotopes nasa also developed highly specialized spacecraft revisit our neighbors mars and venus the middle and late twin viking landers were equipped serve seismic and weather stations and biology laboratories two advanced orbiters descendants the mariner craft carried the viking landers from earth and then studied martian features from above two drum shaped pioneer spacecraft visited venus the pioneer venus orbiter was equipped with radar instrument that allowed see through the planet dense cloud cover study surface features the pioneer venus multiprobe carried four probes that were dropped through the clouds the probes and the main body all which contained scientific instruments radioed information about the planet atmosphere during their descent toward the surface new generation automated spacecraft including magellan galileo ulysses mars observer the comet rendezvous asteroid flyby craf and cassini being developed and sent out into the solar system make detailed examinations that will increase our understanding our neighborhood and our own planet the sun discussion the objects the solar system must start with the sun the sun dwarfs the other bodies representing approximately percent all the mass the solar system all the planets moons asteroids comets dust and gas add only about percent this percent represents the material left over from the sun formation one hundred and nine earths would required fit across the sun disk and its interior could hold over million earths star the sun generates energy through the process fusion the temperature the sun core million degrees celsius million degrees fahrenheit and the pressure there billion times earth air pressure sea level the sun surface temperature degrees celsius degrees fahrenheit seems almost chilly compared its core temperature the solar core hydrogen can fuse into helium producing energy the sun also produces strong magnetic field and streams charged particles both extending far beyond the planets the sun appears have been active for billion years and has enough fuel for another five billion years the end its life the sun will start fuse helium into heavier elements and begin swell ultimately growing large that will swallow earth after billion years red giant will suddenly collapse into white dwarf the final end product star like ours may take trillion years cool off completely many spacecraft have explored the sun environment but none have gotten any closer its surface than approximately two thirds the distance from earth the sun pioneers the pioneer venus orbiter voyagers and and other spacecraft have all sampled the solar environment the ulysses spacecraft launched october joint solar mission nasa and the european space agency after using jupiter gravity change its trajectory ulysses will fly over the sun polar regions during and and will perform wide range studies using nine onboard scientific instruments are fortunate that the sun exactly the way were different almost any way life would almost certainly never have developed earth mercury obtaining the first close views mercury was the primary objective the mariner spacecraft launched november from kennedy space center florida after journey nearly five months which included flyby venus the spacecraft passed within kilometers miles the solar system innermost planet march until mariner little was known about mercury even the best telescopic views from earth showed mercury indistinct object lacking any surface detail the planet close the sun that usually lost solar glare when the planet visible earth horizon just after sunset before dawn obscured the haze and dust our atmosphere only radar telescopes gave any hint mercury surface conditions prior the voyage mariner the photographs mariner radioed back earth revealed ancient heavily cratered surface closely resembling our own moon the pictures also showed huge cliffs crisscrossing the planet these apparently were created when mercury interior cooled and shrank buckling the planet crust the cliffs are high kilometers miles and long kilometers miles instruments mariner discovered that mercury has weak magnetic field and trace atmosphere trillionth the density earth atmosphere and composed chiefly argon neon and helium when the planet orbit takes closest the sun surface temperatures range from degrees celsius degrees fahrenheit mercury sunlit side degrees celsius degrees fahrenheit the dark side this range surface temperature degrees celsius degrees fahrenheit the largest for single body the solar system mercury literally bakes and freezes the same time days and nights are long mercury the combination slow rotation relative the stars earth days and rapid revolution around the sun earth days means that one mercury solar day takes earth days two mercury years the time takes the innermost planet complete two orbits around the sun mercury appears have crust light silicate rock like that earth scientists believe mercury has heavy iron rich core making slightly less than half its volume that would make mercury core larger proportionally than the moon core those any the planets after the initial mercury encounter mariner made two additional flybys september and march before control gas used orient the spacecraft was exhausted and the mission was concluded each flyby took place the same local mercury time when the identical half the planet was illuminated result still have not seen one half the planet surface venus veiled dense cloud cover venus our nearest planetary neighbor was the first planet explored the mariner spacecraft launched august was the first more than dozen successful american and soviet missions study the mysterious planet spacecraft flew orbited venus plunged into the atmosphere gently landed venus surface romantic myths and speculations about our neighbor were laid rest december mariner passed within kilometers miles venus and became the first spacecraft scan another planet onboard instruments measured venus for minutes mariner launched june flew much closer the planet passing within kilometers miles venus the second american flyby mariner instruments measured the planet magnetic field ionosphere radiation belts and temperatures its way mercury mariner flew venus and transmitted ultraviolet pictures earth showing cloud circulation patterns the venusian atmosphere the spring and summer two spacecraft were launched further unravel the mysteries venus december the same year the pioneer venus orbiter became the first spacecraft placed orbit around the planet five days later the five separate components making the second spacecraft the pioneer venus multiprobe entered the venusian atmosphere different locations above the planet the four small independent probes and the main body radioed atmospheric data back earth during their descent toward the surface although designed examine the atmosphere one the probes survived its impact with the surface and continued transmit data for another hour venus resembles earth size physical composition and density more closely than any other known planet however spacecraft have discovered significant differences well for example venus rotation west east retrograde backward compared the east west spin earth and most the other planets approximately percent venus atmosphere times dense earth carbon dioxide the principal constituent earth atmosphere nitrogen venus atmosphere acts like greenhouse permitting solar radiation reach the surface but trapping the heat that would ordinarily radiated back into space result the planet average surface temperature degrees celsius degrees fahrenheit hot enough melt lead radio altimeter the pioneer venus orbiter provided the first means seeing through the planet dense cloud cover and determining surface features over almost the entire planet nasa magellan spacecraft launched may has been orbit around venus since august the spacecraft uses radar mapping techniques provide ultrahigh resolution images the surface magellan has revealed landscape dominated volcanic features faults and impact craters huge areas the surface show evidence multiple periods lava flooding with flows lying top previous ones elevated region named ishtar terra lava filled basin large the united states one end this plateau sits maxwell montes mountain the size mount everest scarring the mountain flank kilometer mile wide kilometer mile deep impact crater named cleopatra almost all features venus are named for women maxwell montes alpha regio and beta regio are the exceptions craters survive venus for perhaps million years because there water and very little wind erosion extensive fault line networks cover the planet probably the result the same crustal flexing that produces plate tectonics earth but venus the surface temperature sufficient weaken the rock which cracks just about everywhere preventing the formation major plates and large earthquake faults like the san andreas fault california venus predominant weather pattern high altitude high speed circulation clouds that contain sulfuric acid speeds reaching high kilometers miles per hour the clouds circle the planet only four earth days the circulation the same direction west east venus slow rotation earth days whereas earth winds blow both directions west east and east west six alternating bands venus atmosphere serves simplified laboratory for the study our weather earth viewed from space our world distinguishing characteristics are its blue waters brown and green land masses and white clouds are enveloped ocean air consisting percent nitrogen percent oxygen and percent other constituents the only planet the solar system known harbor life earth orbits the sun average distance million kilometers million miles earth the third planet from the sun and the fifth largest the solar system with diameter just few hundred kilometers larger than that venus our planet rapid spin and molten nickel iron core give rise extensive magnetic field which along with the atmosphere shields from nearly all the harmful radiation coming from the sun and other stars earth atmosphere protects from meteors well most which burn before they can strike the surface active geological processes have left evidence the pelting earth almost certainly received soon after formed about billion years ago along with the other newly formed planets was showered space debris the early days the solar system from our journeys into space have learned much about our home planet the first american satellite explorer was launched from cape canaveral florida january and discovered intense radiation zone now called the van allen radiation belts surrounding earth since then other research satellites have revealed that our planet magnetic field distorted into tear drop shape the solar wind the stream charged particles continuously ejected from the sun learned that the magnetic field does not fade off into space but has definite boundaries and now know that our wispy upper atmosphere once believed calm and uneventful seethes with activity swelling day and contracting night affected changes solar activity the upper atmosphere contributes weather and climate earth besides affecting earth weather solar activity gives rise dramatic visual phenomenon our atmosphere when charged particles from the solar wind become trapped earth magnetic field they collide with air molecules above our planet magnetic poles these air molecules then begin glow and are known the auroras the northern and southern lights satellites about kilometers miles out space play major role daily local weather forecasting these watchful electronic eyes warn dangerous storms continuous global monitoring provides vast amount useful data and contributes better understanding earth complex weather systems from their unique vantage points satellites can survey earth oceans land use and resources and monitor the planet health these eyes space have saved countless lives provided tremendous conveniences and shown that may altering our planet dangerous ways the moon the moon earth single natural satellite the first human footsteps alien world were made american astronauts the dusty surface our airless lifeless companion preparation for the human crewed apollo expeditions nasa dispatched the automated ranger surveyor and lunar orbiter spacecraft study the moon between and nasa apollo program left large legacy lunar materials and data six two astronaut crews landed and explored the lunar surface between and carrying back collection rocks and soil weighing total kilograms pounds and consisting more than separate samples from this material and other studies scientists have constructed history the moon that includes its infancy rocks collected from the lunar highlands date about billion years old the first few million years the moon existence were violent that few traces this period remain molten outer layer gradually cooled and solidified into different kinds rock the moon was bombarded huge asteroids and smaller objects some the asteroids were large rhode island delaware and their collisions with the moon created basins hundreds kilometers across this catastrophic bombardment tapered off approximately four billion years ago leaving the lunar highlands covered with huge overlapping craters and deep layer shattered and broken rock heat produced the decay radioactive elements began melt the interior the moon depths about kilometers miles below the surface then for the next million years from about billion years ago lava rose from inside the moon the lava gradually spread out over the surface flooding the large impact basins form the dark areas that galileo galilei astronomer the italian renaissance called maria meaning seas far can tell there has been significant volcanic activity the moon for more than three billion years since then the lunar surface has been altered only micrometeorites the atomic particles from the sun and stars the rare impacts large meteorites and spacecraft and astronauts our astronauts had landed the moon billion years ago they would have seen landscape very similar the one today thousands years from now the footsteps left the apollo crews will remain sharp and clear the origin the moon still mystery four theories attempt explanation the moon formed near earth separate body was torn from earth formed somewhere else and was captured our planet gravity was the result collision between earth and asteroid about the size mars the last theory has some good support but far from certain mars all the planets mars has long been considered the solar system prime candidate for harboring extraterrestrial life astronomers studying the red planet through telescopes saw what appeared straight lines crisscrossing its surface these observations later determined optical illusions led the popular notion that intelligent beings had constructed system irrigation canals the planet when orson welles broadcast radio drama based the science fiction classic war the worlds wells enough people believed the tale invading martians cause near panic another reason for scientists expect life mars had with the apparent seasonal color changes the planet surface this phenomenon led speculation that conditions might support bloom martian vegetation during the warmer months and cause plant life become dormant during colder periods far six american missions mars have been carried out four mariner spacecraft three flying the planet and one placed into martian orbit surveyed the planet extensively before the viking orbiters and landers arrived mariner launched late flew past mars july coming within kilometers miles the surface transmitting earth close pictures the planet the spacecraft found many craters and naturally occurring channels but evidence artificial canals flowing water mariners and followed with their flybys during the summer and returned pictures mariners and showed diversity surface conditions well thin cold dry atmosphere carbon dioxide may the mariner orbiter was launched mission make year long study the martian surface the spacecraft arrived five and half months after lift off only find mars the midst planet wide dust storm that made surface photography impossible for several weeks but after the storm cleared mariner began returning the first pictures these revealed previously unknown martian features including evidence that large amounts water once flowed across the surface etching river valleys and flood plains august and september the viking and spacecraft each consisting orbiter and lander lifted off from kennedy space center the mission was designed answer several questions about the red planet including there life there nobody expected the spacecraft spot martian cities but was hoped that the biology experiments the viking landers would least find evidence primitive life past present viking lander became the first spacecraft successfully touch down another planet when landed july while the united states was celebrating its bicentennial photos sent back from the chryse planitia plains gold showed bleak rusty red landscape panoramic images returned the lander revealed rolling plain littered with rocks and marked rippled sand dunes fine red dust from the martian soil gives the sky salmon hue when viking lander touched down utopia planitia september viewed more rolling landscape than the one seen its predecessor one without visible dunes the results sent back the laboratory each viking lander were inconclusive small samples the red martian soil were tested three different experiments designed detect biological processes while some the test results seemed indicate biological activity later analysis confirmed that this activity was inorganic nature and related the planet soil chemistry there life mars one knows for sure but the viking mission found evidence that organic molecules exist there the viking landers became weather stations recording wind velocity and direction well atmospheric temperature and pressure few weather changes were observed the highest temperature recorded either craft was degrees celsius degrees fahrenheit the viking lander site midsummer the lowest temperature degrees celsius degrees fahrenheit was recorded the more northerly viking lander site during winter near hurricane wind speeds were measured the two martian weather stations during global dust storms but because the atmosphere thin wind force minimal viking lander photographed light patches frost probably water ice during its second winter the planet the martian atmosphere like that venus primarily carbon dioxide nitrogen and oxygen are present only small percentages martian air contains only about much water our air but even this small amount can condense out forming clouds that ride high the atmosphere swirl around the slopes towering volcanoes local patches early morning fog can form valleys there evidence that the past denser martian atmosphere may have allowed water flow the planet physical features closely resembling shorelines gorges riverbeds and islands suggest that great rivers once marked the planet mars has two moons phobos and deimos they are small and irregularly shaped and possess ancient cratered surfaces possible the moons were originally asteroids that ventured too close mars and were captured its gravity the viking orbiters and landers exceeded large margins their design lifetimes and days respectively the first fail was viking orbiter which stopped operating july when leak depleted its attitude control gas viking lander operated until april when was shut down because battery degeneration viking orbiter quit august when the last its attitude control gas was used viking lander ceased functioning november despite the inconclusive results the viking biology experiments know more about mars than any other planet except earth nasa mars observer spacecraft launched september will expand our knowledge the martian environment and lead human exploration the red planet asteroids the solar system has large number rocky and metallic objects that are orbit around the sun but are too small considered full fledged planets these objects are known asteroids minor planets most but not all are found band belt between the orbits mars and jupiter some have orbits that cross earth path and there evidence that earth has been hit asteroids the past one the least eroded best preserved examples the barringer meteor crater near winslow arizona asteroids are material left over from the formation the solar system one theory suggests that they are the remains planet that was destroyed massive collision long ago more likely asteroids are material that never coalesced into planet fact the estimated total mass all asteroids was gathered into single object the object would only about kilometers miles across less than half the diameter our moon thousands asteroids have been identified from earth estimated that are bright enough eventually photographed through earth based telescopes much our understanding about asteroids comes from examining pieces space debris that fall the surface earth asteroids that are collision course with earth are called meteoroids when meteoroid strikes our atmosphere high velocity friction causes this chunk space matter incinerate streak light known meteor the meteoroid does not burn completely what left strikes earth surface and called meteorite one the best places look for meteorites the ice cap antarctica all the meteorites examined percent are composed silicate stone and percent are composed iron and nickel the rest are mixture the three materials stony meteorites are the hardest identify since they look very much like terrestrial rocks since asteroids are material from the very early solar system scientists are interested their composition spacecraft that have flown through the asteroid belt have found that the belt really quite empty and that asteroids are separated very large distances current and future missions will fly selected asteroids for closer examination the galileo orbiter launched nasa october will investigate main belt asteroids its way jupiter the comet rendezvous asteroid flyby craf and cassini missions will also study these far flung objects scheduled for launch the latter part the the craf and cassini missions are collaborative project nasa the european space agency and the federal space agencies germany and italy well the united states air force and the department energy one day space factories will mine the asteroids for raw materials jupiter beyond mars and the asteroid belt the outer regions our solar system lie the giant planets jupiter saturn uranus and neptune nasa dispatched the first four spacecraft slated conduct the initial surveys these colossal worlds gas and their moons ice and rock jupiter was the first port call pioneer which lifted off from kennedy space center march was the first spacecraft penetrate the asteroid belt and travel the outer regions the solar system december returned the first close images jupiter flying within kilometers miles the planet banded cloud tops pioneer followed year later voyagers and were launched the summer and returned spectacular photographs jupiter and its family satellites during flybys these travelers found jupiter whirling ball liquid hydrogen and helium topped with colorful atmosphere composed mostly gaseous hydrogen and helium ammonia ice crystals form white jovian clouds sulfur compounds and perhaps phosphorus may produce the brown and orange hues that characterize jupiter atmosphere likely that methane ammonia water and other gases react form organic molecules the regions between the planet frigid cloud tops and the warmer hydrogen ocean lying below because jupiter atmospheric dynamics however these organic compounds they exist are probably short lived the great red spot has been observed for centuries through telescopes earth this hurricane like storm jupiter atmosphere more than twice the size our planet high pressure region the great red spot spins direction opposite that low pressure storms jupiter surrounded swirling currents that rotate around the spot and are sometimes consumed the great red spot might million years old our spacecraft detected lightning jupiter upper atmosphere and observed auroral emissions similar earth northern lights the jovian polar regions voyager returned the first images faint narrow ring encircling jupiter largest the solar system planets jupiter rotates dizzying pace once every hours minutes seconds the massive planet takes almost earth years complete journey around the sun with known moons jupiter something miniature solar system new mission jupiter the galileo project under way after six year cruise that takes the galileo orbiter once past venus twice past earth and the moon and once past two asteroids the spacecraft will drop atmospheric probe into jupiter cloud layers and relay data back earth the galileo orbiter will spend two years circling the planet and flying close jupiter large moons exploring detail what the two pioneers and two voyagers revealed galilean satellites galileo galilei aimed his telescope jupiter and spotted four points light orbiting the planet for the first time humans had seen the moons another world honor their discoverer these four bodies would become known the galilean satellites moons but galileo might have happily traded this honor for one look the dazzling photographs returned the voyager spacecraft they flew past these planet sized satellites one the most remarkable findings the voyager mission was the presence active volcanoes the galilean moon volcanic eruptions had never before been observed world other than earth the voyager cameras identified least nine active volcanoes with plumes ejected material extending far kilometers miles above the moon surface pizza colored terrain marked orange and yellow hues probably the result sulfur rich materials brought the surface volcanic activity volcanic activity this satellite the result tidal flexing caused the gravitational tug war between jupiter and the other three galilean moons europa approximately the same size our moon the brightest galilean satellite the moon surface displays complex array streaks indicating the crust has been fractured caught gravitational tug war like europa has been heated enough cause its interior ice melt apparently producing liquid water ocean this ocean covered ice crust that has formed where water exposed the cold space europa core made rock that sank its center like europa the other two galilean moons ganymede and callisto are worlds ice and rock ganymede the largest satellite the solar system larger than the planets mercury and pluto the satellite composed about percent water ice and the rest rock ganymede surface has areas different brightness indicating that the past material oozed out the moon interior and was deposited various locations the surface callisto only slightly smaller than ganymede has the lowest density any galilean satellite suggesting that large amounts water are part its composition callisto the most heavily cratered object the solar system activity during its history has erased old craters except more impacts detailed studies all the galilean satellites will performed the galileo orbiter saturn planet the solar system adorned like saturn its exquisite ring system unrivaled like jupiter saturn composed mostly hydrogen but contrast the vivid colors and wild turbulence found jovian clouds saturn atmosphere has more subtle butterscotch hue and its markings are muted high altitude haze given saturn somewhat placid looking appearance scientists were surprised the high velocity equatorial jet stream that blows some kilometers miles per hour three american spacecraft have visited saturn pioneer sped the planet and its moon titan september returning the first close images voyager followed november sending back breathtaking photographs that revealed for the first time the complexities saturn ring system and moons voyager flew the planet and its moons august the rings are composed countless low density particles orbiting individually around saturn equator progressive distances from the cloud tops analysis spacecraft radio waves passing through the rings showed that the particles vary widely size ranging from dust house sized boulders the rings are bright because they are mostly ice and frosted rock the rings might have resulted when moon passing body ventured too close saturn the unlucky object would have been torn apart great tidal forces its surface and its interior the object may not have been fully formed begin with and disintegrated under the influence saturn gravity third possibility that the object was shattered collisions with larger objects orbiting the planet unable either form into moon drift away from each other individual ring particles appear held place the gravitational pull saturn and its satellites these complex gravitational interactions form the thousands ringlets that make the major rings radio emissions quite similar the static heard car radio during electrical storm were detected the voyager spacecraft these emissions are typical lightning but are believed coming from saturn ring system rather than its atmosphere where lightning was observed they had jupiter the voyagers saw version earth auroras near saturn poles the voyagers discovered new moons and found several satellites that share the same orbit learned that some moons shepherd ring particles maintaining saturn rings and the gaps the rings saturn moon was discovered from images taken voyager voyager determined that titan has nitrogen based atmosphere with methane and argon one more like earth composition than the carbon dioxide atmospheres mars and venus titan surface temperature degrees celsius degrees fahrenheit implies that there might water ice islands rising above oceans ethane methane liquid sludge unfortunately voyager cameras could not penetrate the moon dense clouds continuing photochemistry from solar radiation may converting titan methane ethane acetylene and combination with nitrogen hydrogen cyanide the latter compound building block amino acids these conditions may similar the atmospheric conditions primeval earth between three and four billion years ago however titan atmospheric temperature believed too low permit progress beyond this stage organic chemistry the exploration saturn will continue with the cassini mission the cassini spacecraft will orbit the planet and will also deploy probe called huygens which will dropped into titan atmosphere and fall the surface cassini will use the probe well radar peer through titan clouds and will spend years examining the saturnian system uranus january four and half years after visiting saturn voyager completed the first close survey the uranian system the brief flyby revealed more information about uranus and its retinue icy moons than had been gleaned from ground observations since the planet discovery over two centuries ago the english astronomer william herschel uranus third largest the planets oddball the solar system unlike the other planets with the exception pluto this giant lies tipped its side with its north and south poles alternately facing the sun during year swing around the solar system during voyager flyby the south pole faced the sun uranus might have been knocked over when earth sized object collided with early the life the solar system voyager found that uranus magnetic field does not follow the usual north south axis found the other planets instead the field tilted degrees and offset from the planet center phenomenon that earth would like having one magnetic pole new york city and the other the city djakarta the island java indonesia uranus atmosphere consists mainly hydrogen with some percent helium and small amounts ammonia methane and water vapor the planet blue color occurs because methane its atmosphere absorbs all other colors wind speeds range kilometers miles per hour and temperatures near the cloud tops average degrees celsius degrees fahrenheit uranus sunlit south pole shrouded kind photochemical smog believed combination acetylene ethane and other sunlight generated chemicals surrounding the planet atmosphere and extending thousands kilometers into space mysterious ultraviolet sheen known electroglow approximately kilometers miles below uranus cloud tops there thought scalding ocean water and dissolved ammonia some kilometers miles deep beneath this ocean earth sized core heavier materials voyager discovered new moons kilometers miles diameter orbiting uranus the five previously known miranda ariel umbriel titania and oberon range size from kilometers miles across representing geological showcase these five moons are half ice half rock spheres that are cold and dark and show evidence past activity including faulting and ice flows the most remarkable uranus moons miranda its surface features high cliffs well canyons crater pocked plains and winding valleys the sharp variations terrain suggest that after the moon formed was smashed apart collision with another body event not unusual our solar system which contains many objects that have impact craters are fragments from large impacts what extraordinary that miranda apparently reformed with some the material that had been its interior exposed its surface uranus was thought have nine dark rings voyager imaged contrast saturn rings which are composed bright particles uranus rings are primarily made dark boulder sized chunks neptune voyager completed its year tour the solar system with investigation neptune and the planet moons august the spacecraft swept within kilometers miles neptune and then flew the moon triton during the neptune encounter became clear that the planet atmosphere was more active than uranus voyager observed the great dark spot circular storm the size earth neptune atmosphere resembling jupiter great red spot the storm spins counterclockwise and moves westward almost kilometers miles per hour voyager also noted smaller dark spot and fast moving cloud dubbed the scooter well high altitude clouds over the main hydrogen and helium cloud deck the highest wind speeds any planet were observed kilometers miles per hour like the other giant planets neptune has gaseous hydrogen and helium upper layer over liquid interior the planet core contains higher percentage rock and metal than those the other gas giants neptune distinctive blue appearance like uranus blue color due atmospheric methane neptune magnetic field tilted relative the planet spin axis and not centered the core this phenomenon similar uranus magnetic field and suggests that the fields the two giants are being generated area above the cores where the pressure great that liquid hydrogen assumes the electrical properties metal earth magnetic field the other hand produced its spinning metallic core and only slightly tilted and offset relative its center voyager also shed light the mystery neptune rings observations from earth indicated that there were arcs material orbit around the giant planet was not clear how neptune could have arcs and how these could kept from spreading out into even unclumped rings voyager detected these arcs but they were fact part thin complete rings number small moons could explain the arcs but such bodies were not spotted astronomers had identified the neptunian moons triton and nereid voyager found six more one the new moons proteus actually larger than nereid but since proteus orbits close neptune was lost the planet glare for observers earth triton circles neptune retrograde orbit under six days tidal forces triton are causing spiral slowly towards the planet million years short time astronomical terms the moon will close that neptunian gravity will tear apart forming spectacular ring accompany the planet modest current rings triton landscape strange and unexpected those and miranda the moon has more rock than its counterparts saturn and uranus triton mantle probably composed water ice but the moon crust thin veneer nitrogen and methane the moon shows two dramatically different types terrain the called cantaloupe terrain and receding ice cap dark streaks appear the ice cap these streaks are the fallout from geyser like volcanic vents that shoot nitrogen gas and dark fine grained particles heights kilometers miles triton thin atmosphere only thick earth has winds that carry the dark particles and deposit them streaks the ice cap the coldest surface yet found the solar system degrees celsius degrees fahrenheit triton might more like pluto than any other object spacecraft have far visited pluto pluto the most distant the planets yet the eccentricity its orbit periodically carries inside neptune orbit where has been since and where will remain until march pluto orbit also highly inclined tilted degrees the orbital plane the other planets discovered pluto appears little more than celestial snowball the planet diameter calculated approximately kilometers miles only two thirds the size our moon ground based observations indicate that pluto surface covered with methane ice and that there thin atmosphere that may freeze and fall the surface the planet moves away from the sun observations also show that pluto spin axis tipped degrees the planet has one known satellite charon discovered charon surface composition different from pluto the moon appears covered with water ice rather than methane ice its orbit gravitationally locked with pluto both bodies always keep the same hemisphere facing each other pluto and charon rotational period and charon period revolution are all earth days although spacecraft have ever visited pluto nasa currently exploring the possibility such mission comets the outermost members the solar system occasionally pay visit the inner planets asteroids are the rocky and metallic remnants the formation the solar system comets are the icy debris from that dim beginning and can survive only far from the sun most comet nuclei reside the oort cloud loose swarm objects halo beyond the planets and reaching perhaps halfway the nearest star comet nuclei orbit this frozen abyss until they are gravitationally perturbed into new orbits that carry them close the sun nucleus falls inside the orbits the outer planets the volatile elements which made gradually warm the time the nucleus enters the region the inner planets these volatile elements are boiling the nucleus itself irregular and only few miles across and made principally water ice with methane and ammonia materials very similar those composing the moons the giant planets these materials boil off the nucleus they form coma cloud like head that can measure tens thousands kilometers across the coma grows the comet gets closer the sun the stream charged particles coming from the sun pushes this cloud blowing back like flag the wind and giving rise the comet tails gases and ions are blown directly back from the nucleus but dust particles are pushed more slowly the nucleus continues its orbit the dust particles are left behind curved arc both the gas and dust tails point away from the sun effect the comet chases its tails recedes from the sun the tails can reach million kilometers million miles length but the total amount material contained this dramatic display would fit ordinary suitcase comets from the latin cometa meaning long haired are essentially dramatic light shows some comets pass through the solar system only once but others have their orbits gravitationally modified close encounter with one the giant outer planets these latter visitors can enter closed elliptical orbits and repeatedly return the inner solar system halley comet the most famous example relatively short period comet returning average once every years and orbiting from beyond neptune within venus orbit confirmed sightings the comet back this regular visitor our solar system named for sir edmond halley because plotted the comet orbit and predicted its return based earlier sightings and newtonian laws motion his name became part astronomical lore when the comet returned schedule unfortunately sir edmond did not live see comet can very prominent the sky passes comparatively close earth unfortunately its most recent appearance halley comet passed closer than million kilometers million miles from our world the comet was visible the naked eye especially for viewers the southern hemisphere but was not spectacular comets have been bright rare occasions that they were visible during daytime historically comet sightings have been interpreted bad omens and have been artistically rendered daggers the sky the comet rendezvous asteroid flyby craf spacecraft will become the first traveler fly close comet nucleus and remain proximity they both approach the sun craf will observe the nucleus becomes active the growing sunlight and begins have its lighter elements boil off and form coma and tails several spacecraft have flown comets high speed the first was nasa international cometary explorer armada five spacecraft two japanese two soviet and the giotto spacecraft from the european space agency flew halley comet conclusion despite their efforts peer across the vast distances space through obscuring atmosphere scientists the past had only one body they could study closely earth but since spaceflight through the solar system has lifted the veil our neighbors space have learned more about our solar system and its members than anyone had the previous thousands years our automated spacecraft have traveled the moon and all the planets beyond our world except pluto they have observed moons large small planets flown comets and sampled the solar environment astronomy books now include detailed pictures bodies that were only smudges the largest telescopes for generations are lucky alive now see these strange and beautiful places and objects the knowledge gained from our journeys through the solar system has redefined traditional earth sciences like geology and meteorology and spawned entirely new discipline called comparative planetology studying the geology planets moons asteroids and comets and comparing differences and similarities are learning more about the origin and history these bodies and the solar system whole are also gaining insight into earth complex weather systems seeing how weather shaped other worlds and investigating the sun activity and its influence throughout the solar system can better understand climatic conditions and processes earth will continue learn and benefit our automated spacecraft explore our neighborhood space one current mission mapping venus others are flying between worlds and will reach the sun and jupiter after complex trajectory adjustments future missions are planned for mars saturn comet and the asteroid belt can also look forward the time when humans will once again set foot alien world although astronauts have not been back the moon since december plans are being formulated for our return the lunar landscape and for the human exploration mars and even the establishment martian outposts one day taking holiday may mean spending week lunar base martian colony end
sci.space	space manuevering tug was hst servicing mission given that what described for the hst seemed the smt and given the mass amrgins the discovery mission tight enough that spacewalking has carefully constrained edo pallets spare suits extra mmu why not this quick test goldins philosophjy faster cheaper better build real fast space tug handle the boost the hst using clean cryo fuels and get ready before the hst mission nasa could build mercury months they should able make smt how much would need guidance package use voyager spare thruster gear use lox bus use commsat grapple fixture use stripped down canadarm comms package spare band omni gear pat
sci.space	galileo update article apr kelvin jpl nasa gov baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov ron baalke writes april cruise science memory readout mro was performed for the magnetometer mag instrument analysis indicates the data was received properly correct assuming that the science instruments buffer their acquired data onboard ram which then downloaded upon receipt the mro command simon brady you don need lot fancy hardware for university otago virtual reality just walkman and dunedin new zealand attitude
sci.space	hst servicing mission scheduled for days article apr den mmc com zwork starfighter den mmc com michael corvin writes expect that retrieving hst would involve damaging considerably order return its cradle the cargo bay most the deployed items antennas and especially the solar arays probably are not retractable into their fully stowed position even hand the thing designed retrievable pinch indeed this dictated rather odd design for the solar arrays since they had retractable well extendable and may thus have indirectly contributed the array flapping problems the retrieval problems are exactly stated would costly would involve extensive downtime and the worry someone finding reason not launch and would unnecessarily expose the telescope lot mechanical stresses and possibilities for contamination svr resembles high speed collision henry spencer toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	teflon development hausner qucis queensu alejo hausner pontificated sorry split hairs but just read the making the atomic bomb that teflon was developed during world war sealant was needed for the tubing which uranium hexafluoride passed was gradually enriched difussion very corrosive and some very inert yet flexible material was needed for the seals split split hair believe that teflon monomer was discovered accident when someone don remember found what thought was liquid gas had turned solid just happend fit the bill for the above use crossposting sci materials perhaps someone the know might elaborate james green jgreen oboe calpoly edu know you believe you understand what that you think said but not sure that you realize that what said not what meant
sci.space	space manuevering tug was hst servicing mission article rnaih jvj access digex net prb access digex net pat writes given that what described for the hst seemed the smt and given the mass amrgins the discovery mission tight enough that spacewalking has carefully constrained edo pallets spare suits extra mmu why not this quick test goldins philosophjy faster cheaper better build real fast space tug handle the boost the hst using clean cryo fuels and get ready before the hst mission nasa could build mercury months they should able make smt how much would need guidance package use voyager spare thruster gear use lox bus use commsat grapple fixture use stripped down canadarm comms package spare band omni gear pat and then why not build space dock either inflated not some place crew can work item without having wear much the items they have for spae such most bulky suit more idea come michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu not high just jacked
sci.space	deployable space dock idea for repair satellites warning getting creative again why not build inflatable space dock basically deploy one side the space dock using scissor shaped structure saw beyond then maneuer the side next the satellite and then move the rest the dock around the satellite and seal the inflate the dock with gas does not have oxygen just neeeds non flameble non damaging the satellite and abel maintain heat thenheat the space dock for the astronaut who will working onthe satellite able not have wear the normal bulky space suit but much striped down own know this might take slot work not just plain wierd but ideas need thought for where tomorrow but the imagination the present michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu not high just jacked
sci.space	private support exploration russian america commericial support for exploration examples also much baranovs exploration and utilization alaska russian america also included parts washington state oregon and california was doen private funds yes some royal governmental funds times michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu not high just jacked
sci.space	gamma ray bursters where are they feel compelled complain the statement that recent observations rule out merging neutron stars sources gamma ray bursts utterly false even though popular enough make batse press releases the idea behind the statement follows you smack two neutron stars together have neutron star gobbled black hole lot energy released enough for gamma ray burst cosmological distance but the reasoning continues this energy released below lot matter the radiation becomes thermalized and you expect see roughly blackbody spectrum the observed spectra are strongly non thermal this model must wrong often the fault lies with the imagination the person who was trying prove the model wrong rather than with the model may that the initial energy release not seen gamma ray burst but the fireball energy and matter that created may spew out relativistic flow when this slams into the surrounding medium strong flux non thermal gamma rays results which may carry off substantial fraction the initial total energy all this not idea series papers martin rees peter meszaros sorry for the missing accents and workers certainly not complete model but may well the best one around summing over all proposed distance scales alternative proposal for what creates the initial fireball the way the called failed supernovae scenario stan woosley which very massive star the end its life collapses black hole the stellar core was rotating part the infalling matter will temporarily halted because supported centrifugal force and form very dense neutron torus that accretes onto the black hole this beast may spew out jet along the rotation axis which again constitutes relativistic flow the rate such events may much higher than that neutron star mergers but the flux may more strongly beamed that the net rate bursts observed earth stays the same between the two scenarios but the energy released per event can lot less the failed supernova scenario another note believe that the distance scale must ultimately resolved via some classical astronomical method such finding counterparts the bursts other wavelengths finding definitive signature some known class objects the distribution positions and fluxes theorists have historically not been too successfull finding the distance any object proving that there only one possible way which the object can work and therefore must and ralph wijers
sci.space	long term human missions jgladu bcm tmc edu grungy writes ward pashosh wisdom weizmann ward paul wrote calculators teflon your eggs don stick the pan pacemakers kept grandfather alive from until don think touting contributions good idea world war produced many many beneficial spinoffs radar jet aeroplanes rocket technology don think anyone would argue that world war was and itself good thing you want people back the space program must good thing and itself disagree with what tout although agree that the space program inherently good thing most people today only care about what will cost and what for and could care less about whether something simply worthwhile and itself our society has become increasingly geared toward the short term which you could read now they couldn care less about next week much less next century they want something show for the expenditure and they want now think some extent this case stooping their level you assume that the general public can handle the truth and then based this assumption for the fluff arguments then someone who can understand good argument comes along and asks why don you just develop the spinoffs why can just get our spinoffs from some other program like the military there are some good arguments for space development without relying its side effects not ignoring the value spinoffs simply think that the general public deserves more credit than you give them btw don forget velcro and you going use spinoffs you better make darn sure you are right teflon has been around since before nasa understand velcro was conceptualized french doctor who went walking the woods and took the trouble wonder how burrs stick your clothes certainly velcro was available hiking equipment the early mid sixties would need see some good evidence before believe that either these would not here today without nasa josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu find way make one attributed hannibal
sci.space	satellite around pluto mission being wierd again warned there plan put satellite around each planet the solar system keep watch help better ask questions before spout opinion how about mission unmanned pluto stay orbit and record things around and near and pluto know strange idea but why not could some scanning not only pluto but also the solar system objects near and aaroundpluto well seti and looking the galaxy without having much the solar system worry about michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu not high just jacked
sci.space	hst servicing mission scheduled for days article nhg rpi edu strider clotho acm rpi edu greg moore writes herny pointed out you have develop the thruster also while much lighter you still have lift the mass the thruster orbit and then the thruster lifts its own weight into higher orbit and you take room the payload bay yes but the improvement boost orbit the hst significant and that means you can then carry edo packs and enough consumables the shuttle mission can long enough also fix the array tilt motors and god knows what else going wear out the hst the next months pat
sci.space	gamma ray bursters how energetic could they article rou ginn gap caltech edu palmer cco caltech edu david palmer writes prb access digex com pat writes article apr vax mankato msus edu belgarath vax mankato msus edu writes energetic for close for the coronal model found around erg sec and lastly for the cosmological model that what you call moderately energetic say any suggestions about what could put out that much energy one second jeremy big capacitor real big capacitor been suggested specifically lightning strikes between clouds the interstellar medium how big lightning rod would you need for protection and would you need jupiter ground plane pat
sci.space	internet resources article cmu edu stk vax stockton edu writes taking course entitled exploring science using internet for our final project are find compendium internet resources dealing with science related topic chose astronomy anyway was wondering anyone out there knew any interesting resources internet that provide information astronomy space nasa anything like that you know the world wide web this global hypertext well hypermedia network running the internet one the nice things about that understands and incorporates virtually all the other systems being used like wais gopher ftp archie etc usually quite easy add existing resources the web you like explore suggest getting the xmosaic program written the ncsa windows web browser and pretty slick can understand and cope with more than text gif jpeg mpeg audio etc there are other browsers including text mode browser for people stuck text terminal but most familliar with mosaic under the page the world wide web virtual library subject catalogue this available under the documents menu mosaic any browser via the url http info cern hypertext datasources bysubject overview html there subject space science currently this points page under construction with only the nasa jpl ftp archive volunteered take over this page and fact have replacement with all sorts information pointers mostly gleaned from the sci space faq soon the overworked subject catalogue maintainer switches the space science pointer visible post short note when this happens frederick roeber cern european center for nuclear research mail roeber cern roeber caltech edu work mail cern ppe geneva switzerland home sorry baby can take you the pizza joint tonight got back the lab and split the atom ayn rand what romanticism
sci.space	internet resources article cmu edu stk vax stockton edu writes taking course entitled exploring science using internet for our final project are find compendium internet resources dealing with science related topic chose astronomy anyway was wondering anyone out there knew any interesting resources internet that provide information astronomy space nasa anything like that robert mcelwaine the authoritative source scientific data internet can reached alt fan elwaine spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos kocrsv delcoelect com software technology delco electronics hughes electronics kokomo post therefore armm
sci.space	statement nasa administrator daniel this man clark nasa administrator then god save nasa course the shuttles record unrivaled there only one shuttle furthermore there only likely one shuttle now that hermes and boron are effectively cancelled these officials should spend more their time explaining their european and asian partners how are expected believe them when their paymasters change their minds major international projects everytime new administration takes office considering the major impacts this has the european and asian japanese industry also appreciated how this affects american industry course talking about space stattion freedom dennis newport email devdjn space alcbel alcatel bell telephone berkenrodelei phone hoboken belgium
sci.space	philosophy quest how boldly article apr hemlock cray com bobo thejester cray com bob kierski writes there are number philosophical questions that would like ask encounter life form during our space exploration how determine should capture imprison and then discect analog magazine did article similar subject quite few years ago the question was alien spacecraft landed washington what was the proper organization deal with the state department alien ambassadors the defense department alien invaders the immigration and naturalization service illegal aliens the department the interior new non human species etc was very much question our perception the aliens not anything intrinsic their nature the bibliography for the article cited philosophical paper the name and author which sadly forget believe the author was italian what constitutes legal and moral person being entitled the rights normally accorded person the paper was quite interesting recall encounter civilization that suffering economicly will expend resources from earth help them think you have very careful here the answer yes the human track record helping those poor underpriveleged cultures does underpriveleged mean not having enough priveleges terrible the usual result the destruction radical reorganization the culture this may not always wrong but that the way bet with all the deseases currently have that are deadly and undetectable what will done ensure that more new deadly deseases aren brought back that our deseases don destroy life elsewhere have day bobo doug loss loss husky bloomu edu
sci.space	hst servicing mission scheduled for days article access digex net prb access digex net pat writes article nhg rpi edu strider clotho acm rpi edu greg moore writes herny pointed out you have develop the thruster also while much lighter you still have lift the mass the thruster orbit and then the thruster lifts its own weight into higher orbit and you take room the payload bay yes but the improvement boost orbit the hst significant not understand what you are saying here what improved what significant and what does this have with carrying more equipment servicing mission also implied other posters why you need boost the orbit this mission anyway maybe you have something here but could you please clarify for the net and that means you can then carry edo packs and enough consumables the shuttle mission can long enough also fix the array tilt motors and god knows what else going wear out from what heard the motors are fine one the two sets electronics that control the motors that needs fix the motors and electronics are separate pieces hardware expect corrected wrong this the hst the next months pat
sci.space	internet resources article cmu edu stk vax stockton edu writes taking course entitled exploring science using internet for our final project are find compendium internet resources dealing with science related topic chose astronomy anyway was wondering anyone out there knew any interesting resources internet that provide information astronomy space nasa anything like that thanks keith malinowski stk vax stockton edu box stockton state college pomona new jersey try doing keyword search under gopher using veronica accessing world wide web server also finger yanoff csd csd uwm edu for list internet resources which includes sites with space specific information sure ron baalke will have told you about what available jpl etc best regards ata mail ata etemadi blackett laboratory space and atmospheric physics group imperial college science technology and medicine prince consort road london england internet arpanet earn bitnet atae spva ata mssl ucl span spva atae msslc atae uucp usenet atae spva nsfnet relay
sci.space	satellite around pluto mission article apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes being wierd again warned being what weird warned there plan put satellite around each planet the solar system keep watch help better ask questions before spout opinion keep watch for what how about mission unmanned pluto stay orbit and record things around and near and pluto know strange idea but why not the several tens hundreds millions dollars would cost record things there and prefer manned mission anyway could some scanning not only pluto but also the solar system objects near and aaroundpluto well seti and looking the galaxy without having much the solar system worry about already got pretty good platform scan the solar system well seti and looking the galaxy without having much the solar system worry about care guess where shag rob unverzagt shag aerospace aero org tuesday soylent green day unverzagt courier aero org
sci.space	true globe who makes article mju zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes article bill xpresso uucp bill xpresso uucp bill vance writes has been known for quite while that the earth actually more pear shaped than globular spherical does anyone make globe that accurate actual shape landmass configuration long lat lines etc don think you going able see the differences from sphere unless they are greatly exaggerated even the equatorial bulge only about part you never notice error globe and the other deviations from spherical shape are much smaller svr resembles high speed collision henry spencer toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry remember physic prof who talked about scaling cue ball earth size its was significantly less spherical that the earth terry figurelle boeing defense space group email tff plato boeing com box mail stop phone fax seattle terry figurelle boeing defense space group email tff plato boeing com box mail stop phone fax seattle
sci.space	government and technolgy investment people who criticize big government and its projects rarely seem have consistent view the role government science and technology basically the government has gotten into the role supporting research which private industry finds too expensive too long term historically this role for the gov was forced upon because socialism other countries order for industries compete with government subsidized foreign competitors the gov has taken the role subisizing big ticket long lead republican abhor the necessity for our government involve itself technology this way believe that market forces should drive technology and the world would better place for but the whole world would have implement this concept simultaneously some countries would have subsidized while others would not the must subsidize because everybody else does this sounds lot like the farm subsidies arguments behind our gatt negotiations doesn but this role government subsidies antithetical cost effectiveness the general idea spend money new technology and thereby maintain and promote our technological culture despite the forces the business world like the dreaded quarterly earnings report which erode the ability industry invest new technology and since our goal spend money makes little sense try save money course could always spend our money more wisely but everybody disagrees about that the wisdom should interesting note that some our best tools for cost control available industry today were derived from government projects gantt charts and most the modern scheduling software comes from dod projects and their contractors the construction industry has taken these tools the core their businesses every large construction project now uses these tools ken jenks nasa jsc space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov scientist can discover new star but cannot make one would have ask engineer that gordon glegg american engineer
sci.space	hst servicing mission scheduled for days article zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes the thing designed retrievable pinch indeed this dictated rather odd design for the solar arrays since they had retractable well extendable and may thus have indirectly contributed the array flapping problems why not design the solar arrays detachable the shuttle going retunr the hst what bother are some arrays just fit them with quick release one space walk use the second canadarm remove the arrays pat
sci.space	what planets are habitable article rpt hsc usc edu khayash hsc usc edu ken hayashida writes for human tolerances the best example human endurance terms altitude low atmospheric pressure and lower oxygen partial pressure opinion the scaling everest without oxygen assistance this quite feat physiological endurance indeed the extreme limit what humanly possible possible only because mount everest fairly low latitude there slight equatorial bulge the atmosphere beyond what induced the earth rotation thanks the overall circulation pattern the atmosphere air cools poles and descends flowing back equator where warmed and rises and this helps just enough make everest without oxygen feasible only just feasible mind you the guys who did reported hallucinations and other indications oxygen starvation and probably incurred some permanent brain damage svr resembles high speed collision henry spencer toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	hst servicing mission scheduled for days article apr stsci edu hathaway stsci edu writes article access digex net prb access digex net pat writes article nhg rpi edu strider clotho acm rpi edu greg moore writes herny pointed out you have develop the thruster also while much lighter you still have lift the mass the thruster orbit and then the thruster lifts its own weight into higher orbit and you take room the payload bay yes but the improvement boost orbit the hst significant not understand what you are saying here what improved what significant and what does this have with carrying more equipment servicing mission also implied other posters why you need boost the orbit this mission anyway maybe you have something here but could you please clarify for the net right now the hst sevicing mission listed days before was listed days they just kicked the number spacewalks after simulations indicated that was not able after all the space walking they are going boost the hst orbit think right now sitting miles they would like don know the exact orbit numbers know when hst was first flown was placed the highest possible shuttle orbit now the shuttle can cary thing called the edo pallet extended duration orbiter pallet mostly lox for the fuel cells and rcs gear plus more and canisters for the life support breathers maybe more nitrogen too the limit space walking function suit supplies mass and orbiter duration order perform the boost the hst the oms engines will fired for long period now the shuttle heavy thing the hst isn light either the amount oms fuel needed fly both substantial small booster carried and used boost hst own will weigh significantly less then the oms fuel required boost both hst and shuttle for given orbital change from what understand the mass margins the hst missions are tight enough they can even carry extra suits mmu now they used small tug would bet just wild guess that the savings amss margin would allow carrying the edo pallet extra suits more consumables parts for the flaky fgs sensor parts for the balky solar electronics and still enough for double magnum champagne the hst could even get placed into some sort medium orbit the reason they want high orbit less antenna pointing and longer drag life and that means you can then carry edo packs and enough consumables the shuttle mission can long enough also fix the array tilt motors and god knows what else going wear out from what heard the motors are fine one the two sets electronics that control the motors that needs fix the motors and electronics are separate pieces hardware expect corrected wrong this whatever the problem the tilt array big constraint hst ops pat
sci.space	gamma ray bursters where are they article apr judy edu wingo cspara decnet fedex msfc nasa gov writes article rlrpv access digex net prb access digex com pat writes this big enough problem create new area physics just little speculative thinking folks pat well pat for once agree with you and like your first idea that you had probably the gamma ray signature the warp transitions interstellar spacecraft dennis agree lot just don both post when agree something and when disagree tends lot more noticeable pat
sci.space	hst antenna haven seen any mention this while here goes when the hubble telescope was first deployed one its high gain antennas was not able moved across its full range motion was suspected that had been snagged cable something operational procedures were modified work around the problem and later problems have overshadowed the hga problem there any plan look the affected hga during the hst repair mission determine the cause its limited range motion the affected hga still limited now capable full range motion steve derry derry larc nasa gov
sci.space	rocket types article rpv wraith uow edu wraith uow edu glen justin balmer writes said that the they developed rocket that used ions nuclear particles for propolsion the government however didn give them billion for the developement guess this was garbled report the nerva effort develop solid core fission rocket the most mundane type nuclear rocket that was the only advanced propulsion project that was done large enough scale likely attract news attention could any number things the description given awfully vague but put small bet nerva svr resembles high speed collision henry spencer toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	deployable space dock article apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes why not build inflatable space dock you doing large scale satellite servicing being able pressurized hangar makes considerable sense the question whether anyone going doing large scale satellite servicing the near future the point justifying development such thing inflate the dock with gas does not have oxygen just neeeds non flameble non damaging the satellite and abel maintain heat you almost certainly use air given that you have pressurize with something safety considerations strongly suggest making breathable even the servicing crew using oxygen masks for normal breathing avoid needing ventilation system nice the hangar atmosphere breathable pinch makes mask functioning much less critical svr resembles high speed collision henry spencer toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	satellite around pluto mission article apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes there plan put satellite around each planet the solar system keep watch there would some point doing long term monitoring things like particles and fields not mention atmospheric phenomena however there particular plan establish any sort monitoring network precise there particular plan period this large part the problem this context not surprising that unexciting but useful missions like this get short shrift budget time the closest approach any sort long term planetary monitoring mission the occasional chance piggyback something like this top flashier mission like galileo cassini how about mission unmanned pluto stay orbit and record things around and near and pluto most unlikely that there much happening pluto that would worth monitoring and prohibitively difficult mission fly without new propulsion technology something the planetary community has firmly resisted being the guinea pigs for the combined need arrive pluto within reasonable amount time and then kill nearly all the cruise velocity settle into orbit beyond what can reasonably done with current that vintage propulsion could some scanning not only pluto but also the solar system objects near and aaroundpluto well seti and looking the galaxy without having much the solar system worry about most this can done just about well from earth the few things that can can done better from voyager like spacecraft that not constrained the need enter orbit around planet svr resembles high speed collision henry spencer toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	hst servicing mission scheduled for days pat prb access digex net wrote the limit space walking function suit supplies mass and orbiter duration order perform the boost the hst the oms engines will fired for long period now the shuttle heavy thing the hst isn light either the amount oms fuel needed fly both substantial small booster carried and used boost hst own will weigh significantly less then the oms fuel required boost both hst and shuttle for given orbital change from what understand the mass margins the hst missions are tight enough they can even carry extra suits mmu pat haven seen any specifics the hst repair mission but can see why the mass margins are tight what are they carrying replacement components wfpc costar gyros solar panels and probably few others all sorts tools eva equipment and much oms fuel and consumables they can this should lighter than the original hst deployment mission which achieved the highest altitude for shuttle mission date and hst now lower orbit seems like the limiting factors would crew fatigue and mission complexity steve derry derry larc nasa gov
sci.space	hst servicing mission scheduled for days article apr stsci edu hathaway stsci edu writes also implied other posters why you need boost the orbit this mission anyway you don need but desirable hst like all satellites low earth orbit gradually losing altitude due air drag was deployed the highest orbit the shuttle could reach for that reason needs occasional reboosting will eventually reenter has propulsion system its own this excellent opportunity given that there may not another visit for several years svr resembles high speed collision henry spencer toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	temperature the dark sky article apr princeton edu richmond spiff princeton edu stupendous man writes that the case let point out that interstellar dust and molecules provide many instances things that are well not too far from being blackbodies many different observations including iras and cobe have determined that interstellar dust grain temperatures can range from interstellar grains are not all close blackbodies the large grains have sizes order micron and absorb visible light with fair efficiency however temperatures below the thermal emission will beyond microns where radiating efficiency poor small antenna cannot easily radiate long wavelengths thus the grains must heat more order radiate the energy they have absorbed moreover the iras observations had maximum wavelength microns grains colder than will radiate primarily longer wavelengths and iras would relatively insensitive them the extreme limit grains cold will almost undetectable any conceivable observation worse still iras color temperatures are heavily contaminated population small grains these grains have only perhaps atoms and when they are hit single photon they heat temperatures several hundred course they cool quickly and then stay cold for while but when they are radiating the characteristic temperature several hundred even small population these grains can dramatically raise the observed average temperature model for local infrared emission consistent with cobe data has three components these represent scattered radiation from zodiacal dust color temperature thermal emission from zodiacal dust and thermal emission from galactic dust the ecliptic poles the emissivities dilution factors are respectively and the first two are roughly doubled the ecliptic plane find the thermal equilibrium temperature add the dilution factor times the fourth power temperature for all components then take the fourth root the table below starlight comes from allen number that stellar emission from the whole sky equivalent zero mag stars with color doubt careful work could much better the person who suggested starlight had dilution factor must have been remembering wrong would cooked that were the case any event the energy density starlight comes out about the same that the microwave background and believe that correct dilution temp microwave background galactic dust zodiacal dust emission zodiacal dust scattering starlight the fourth root outside the solar system the result would find these results surprising especially the importance zodiacal dust but don see any serious mistakes steve willner phone bitnet willner cfa cambridge usa internet willner cfa harvard edu member league for programming freedom contact lpf uunet net
sci.space	vandalizing the sky article agi mju news cso uiuc edu jbh uxa cso uiuc edu josh hopkins writes wondering vandalize the proper word use this situation dictionary defines vandalism the willful malicious destructuion public private property especially anything beautiful artisitc would agree the sky beautiful but not that public private property public because belongs everybody vandalism because many people power companies maliciously waste light they can sell you your city your state unshielded light that wastes percent its light they make more money never mind that your money wasted never mind that taxpaper money wasted never mind that the sky ruined bob bunge greed great gordon grekko
sci.space	moon image weather sat image image the moon has been caught weather satellite images the earth appears both the and visual images the earth the gif images can down loaded from vmd cso uiuc edu and are named gif and gif for the and visual images respectively pretty cool pictures the saturated but the visual image details the moon are viewable the moon not the images george turner turner bigbang astro indiana edu
sci.space	sarsat for tracking payload deployed tether are interested constructing reentry vehicle deployed from tether attached orbiting platform this will follow our succesful deployment kilometer tether the march flight seds small expendable deployment system which released instrumented payload that reentered the earth atmosphere and burned over the west coast mexico this time want make payload that can recovered want build from off the shelf technology this quickly and inexpensively possible want able track the payload after has deployed its parachute idea have put the same kind radio beacon that used with sarsats search and rescue satellites would turn with the opening the parachute and aid tracking these beacons are known the marine industry epirbs emergency position indicating radio beacon they are rugged they have survive ship wreck and cheap have several questions what the world authority regulating the use sarsat beacons are there multiple authorites military and civilian what are the regulations regarding the use sarsat signals can they used for one kind situations with long lead time warning the relevant authorities are they strictly reserved for life threatening emergencies what the coverage sarsats are they leo with only intermittant coverage fixed position the earth are they geosynchronous orbit there industry organization governing the use and manufacture these transponders please post replies here send mail fennell well thanak you very much for any assistance you can provide mike fennell
sci.space	hst servicing mission article rrhlo ajb access digex net prb access digex net pat writes after all the space walking they are going boost the hst orbit think right now sitting miles they would like where did that idea come from news ben
sci.space	moon image weather sat image article usenet ucs indiana edu turner bigbang astro indiana edu george turner writes image the moon has been caught weather satellite images the earth appears both the and visual images the earth the gif images can down loaded from vmd cso uiuc edu and are named gif and gif for the and visual images respectively pretty cool pictures the saturated but the visual image details the moon are viewable near midsummer you can see the relfection the sun the ocean also during solar eclise you can see the shadow the sun move across the clouds
sci.space	space station redesign jsc alternative article ralibinnc cbl umd edu mike starburst umd edu michael santangelo writes dbm lerc nasa gov david mckissock writes text options and deleted option single core launch station this the jsc lead option basically you take diameter cylinder that long slap space shuttle main engines the backside put nose cone the top attached regular shuttle external tank and regular set solid rocket motors and launch the can some key features are complete end end ground integration and checkout tangentially mounted fixed solar panels body mounted radiators which adds protection against micrometeroid orbital debris centerline docking ports one each end berthing ports single pressurized volume approximately cubic feet twice the volume skylab floors center passageway between floors housekeeping power somehow have strange attraction for this idea living modular home maybe has altered mind the only thing that scares the part about simply strapping ssme and nosecone and just launching have this vision something going terribly wrong with the launch resulting the complete loss the new modular space station not just peice would the case with staged orbit construction certainly like this option much more like the original phase studies from the early good stuff dave michelson davem ubc university british columbia
sci.space	abyss breathing fluids apr atae spva ata etemadi writes the forever war one favorite scifi books had passage devoted breathing fluids the idea was protect people from the high accelerations required for interstellar travel emersing the passengers dry cleaning fluid saturated with oxygen plenty very imaginative ideas this book would certainly recommend won the hugo and the nebula awards and most definitely read conjunction with heinlein starship trooper the two books are radically different viewpoints the same basic premises even heard tell english classes built around this insisting perfect safety for people who don have the balls live the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg com don speak for others and they don speak for
sci.space	vandalizing the sky news cso uiuc edu gfk uxa cso uiuc edu george krumins writes typical that the rights the minority are extinguished the wants the majority matter how ridiculous those wants might right what right and don you mean something more like typical that the wants the minority can obstruct the wants the majority matter how ridiculous those minority wants might what benefits those majority wants might have sole connection with the project that spent lot time classes the university colorado insisting perfect safety for people who don have the balls live the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg com don speak for others and they don speak for
sci.space	vandalizing the sky news cso uiuc edu gfk uxa cso uiuc edu george krumins writes was suggesting that the minority professional and amateur astronomers have the right dark uncluttered night sky and from whence does this right stem that overrides the rights the rest let give you example when you watch they have commercials pay for the programming you accept that part watching you don like you can turn off you want view the night sky and there floating billboard out there you can turn off the same reasoning that limits billboards scenic areas and you want view that television station you have watch the commercials you can turn them off and still viewing the television station other words you don like what you see don look there right can think that you have force other people conform your idea aesthetic behaviour what next laws regulating how people must dress and look appeal your fashion sense since you have this right aesthetic view pat writes george called democracy the majority rules sorry ytou don like suggest you modify the constitution include constitutional right dark skies the theory government here that the majority rules except the nature fundamental civil rights say any reasonably depth perusal american history will show you that many wasps have continued the practices prejudice discrimination and violence against others different races religions and beliefs despite the law which has what with the topic discussion pat says you really are annoyed get some legislation create dark sky zone where all light emissions are protected the zone kind like the national radio quiet zone did you know about that near teh radio telescope observatory west virginia they have mile emcon zone theoretically they can prevent you from running light motors like air conditioners and vacuums practice they use mostly control large radio users say what objecting here floating billboard that presumably would move around the sky for one against legislating all just wish that people had bit common courtesy and would consider how their greed for money impacts the more ethereal and aesthetic values that make human this includes the need for wild and unspoiled things including the night sky see you don want any legislation that might impinge you you just want everyone else the planet what you want insisting perfect safety for people who don have the balls live the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg com don speak for others and they don speak for
sci.space	long term human missions jgladu jgladu bcm tmc edu grungy writes article apr wisipc weizmann ward pashosh wisdom weizmann ward paul wrote you want people back the space program must good thing and itself think should tell them about the things that they are using now that are spinoffs the space program that the only way you can prove its worth them and they vote and pay taxes too the continued existence the space program relies upon that money have agree with ward the problem with your approach they add what you can reasonably claim spin offs add what been spent space and then come back with something like you spent billion for that wouldn better just spend the money direct research and forget all this space stuff could have got all that stuff lot cheaper that way space wasteful and inefficient then they cancel your funding and spend studying mating rituals new guinea tribesmen something insisting perfect safety for people who don have the balls live the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg com don speak for others and they don speak for
sci.space	satellite around pluto mission apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes being wierd again warned there plan put satellite around each planet the solar system keep watch help better ask questions before spout opinion how about mission unmanned pluto stay orbit and record things around and near and pluto know strange idea but why not could some scanning not only pluto but also the solar system objects near and aaroundpluto well seti and looking the galaxy without having much the solar system worry about doing this anything like reasonable time would require more propulsion capability than can manage you would have boost pluto and then slow back down you could something like hohman orbit but think that would take ridiculous amounts time rubber bible home insisting perfect safety for people who don have the balls live the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg com don speak for others and they don speak for
sci.space	nasa contributions teflon contribution from the space program since the french were using teflon household items the early unlikely that was invented nasa for pacemakers and calculators again those are anecdotally connected with nasa maximus
sci.space	boeing tsto was words from chairman boeing games max washington edu writes response from cob boeing ssto far single stage orbit technology think that have better answer two stage approach and are talking some our customers about that far commercialization that long ways off anybody know anything further this really news does this threaten further work boeing has been looking several tsto vehicles and has carried out extensive conceptual studies advanced launch systems for some time good reference this might comparison propulsion options for advanced earth orbit eto applications iaf weldon and fink from boeing the paper describes propane fueled tsto launch system claimed achieve aircraft like operational efficiencies without the problems associated with liquid hydrogen fuel basically high speed airplane launching hermes type spaceplane the design the concept also called beta laid out the paper can launch least pounds into polar orbit pounds space station orbit including crew eight persons and life support system design reliability beta foot long first stage powered two large ramjets and high speed civil transport hsct turbofans foot long reusable orbiter trapeze mounted the belly the first stage aircraft which also could accommodate longer and heavy payload expendable second stage launch the orbital vehicle the first stage takes off like normal hsct and accelerates mach that point the turbofans modified burn catalyzed would shut off and the ramjets would take over mach the orbiter the elv would swing out ignite and proceed orbit both vehicles would land like aircraft the conclusion their respective missions estimated total weight the combined configuration takeoff about lbs roughly equivalanet fully loaded the orbiter stages weighs about klbs including klbs lox and subcooled propane power two klbs vacuum thrust rocket engines propellants would stored degrees kelvin with the propane spherical tank mounted forward the foot cargo bay and the two seat orbiter crew station lox would stored aft weldon and fink claim the key this design success the structurally efficient airframe and the compact tankage allowed the high density supercooled hydrocarbon fuel the paper compares tsto design ssto design they conclude while ssto has slightly lower recurring cost tsto easier cheaper and less risky develop simpler build has greater safety and mission versatility and doesn carry the hard handle and bulky hydrogen fuel the conlcude conjunction with its major use airplane type engines and fuel well its inherent self ferry capability probably the system most likely provide close airline like operations possible with practical configuration until single stage airbreather rocket concept can shown operationally viable this really news does this threaten further work weldon and others boeing have been working tsto designs for some time expect this similar concept perhaps the hthl ssto they proposed for the sdio ssto first phase being examined basis for bid the first phase spacelifter does threaten possibly there set going studies trying straighten out the government future space transportation strategy mdc and boeing well other firms are providing data joint study team back there are various factions and options vying for attention including shuttle upgrades shuttle replacement what was called the architecture spacelifter elv upgrades and various advanced vehicles ales beta nasp fsts sstos several types etc nasa dod dot are trying put together coherent strategy for future gov space transportation systems and trying juggle near term launch needs like for dod and nasa against medium term needs including commercial considerations and against the investment and risk going leap frog new technologies like sdio ssto and nasp and beta heck problem the worst part the problem isn that there aren promising ideas and concepts there are dozens them but how they balance cost and risk versus real needs the near term they should have draft report mid june with final report coming the end the fiscal year wales larrison space technology investor maximus
sci.space	hst servicing mission scheduled for days article rrhlo ajb access digex net prb access digex net pat writes article apr stsci edu hathaway stsci edu writes article access digex net prb access digex net pat writes article nhg rpi edu strider clotho acm rpi edu greg moore writes after all the space walking they are going boost the hst orbit think right now sitting miles they would like don know the exact orbit numbers ben says this boost idea all news here you know something don please supply source would nice for the schedulers observations know where the thing going these altitude numbers are also way off best source has minimum altitude the pmdb kilometers maximum altitude the pmdb kilometers delta altitude the pmdb kilometers pmdb proposal management data base used schedule observations order perform the boost the hst the oms engines will fired for long period now the shuttle heavy thing the hst isn light either the amount oms fuel needed fly both substantial small booster carried and used boost hst own will weigh significantly less then the oms fuel required boost both hst and shuttle for given orbital change could you supply some calculations you might check some recent postings that explained that small booster suggested does not now exist comparing the mass something that doesn exist the mass the oms fuel seems impossible the contamination threat also remains the hst could even get placed into some sort medium orbit the reason they want high orbit less antenna pointing and longer drag life longer drag life can understand but could you explain the antenna pointing whatever the problem the tilt array big constraint hst ops tell about although the arrays can and are moved perfectly well utilizing the second electronics box getting them both working much desireable reclaim redundancy pat don mean jump you helpful suggestions are always welcome and all know the more ideas the better but want the true situation described clearly and correctly lest some get confused regards hathaway
sci.space	hst servicing mission scheduled for days article rrjsjinnop rave larc nasa gov sdd larc nasa gov steve derry writes pat prb access digex net wrote the limit space walking function suit supplies mass and orbiter duration haven seen any specifics the hst repair mission but can see why the mass margins are tight what are they carrying replacement components wfpc costar gyros solar panels and probably few others all sorts tools eva equipment and much oms fuel and consumables they can this should lighter than the original hst deployment mission which achieved the highest altitude for shuttle mission date and hst now lower orbit seems like the limiting factors would crew fatigue and mission complexity steve derry derry larc nasa gov one thing recall putting satellite high possible one thing coming back not only that altitude but matching the position its orbit subsequent mission another thing any misalignment the plane the orbit during launch being ahead behind the target will require more fuel adjust this was considered the original deployment agree though that the demands the crew and complexity are stupendous one has admire how much they are trying hathaway baltimore
sci.space	space spinn offs just wanted point out that teflon wasn from the space program was from the wwii nuclear weapons development program pipes the system for fractioning and enriching uranium had lined with uranium hexafloride was the chemical they turned the pitchblend into for enrichment massively corrosive even stainless steels hence the need for very inert substaance line the pipes with teflon has all its molecular sockets bound already very unreactive sense worth bill
sci.space	moon image weather sat image article apr unocal com stgprao unocal com richard ottolini writes article usenet ucs indiana edu turner bigbang astro indiana edu george turner writes image the moon has been caught weather satellite images the earth appears both the and visual images the earth the gif images can down loaded from vmd cso uiuc edu and are named gif and gif for the and visual images respectively pretty cool pictures the saturated but the visual image details the moon are viewable near midsummer you can see the relfection the sun the ocean also during solar eclise you can see the shadow the sun move across the clouds speaking which paper was out few years ago about weather sat imaging lunar eclipse are those images uploaded anywhere could dig out the reference there interest shag rob unverzagt shag aerospace aero org tuesday soylent green day unverzagt courier aero org
sci.space	space spinn offs article rruis bigboote wpi edu wfbrown wpi wpi edu william brown writes from wfbrown wpi wpi edu william brown subject space spinn offs date apr gmt just wanted point out that teflon wasn from the space program was from the wwii nuclear weapons development program pipes the system for fractioning and enriching uranium had lined with uranium hexafloride was the chemical they turned the pitchblend into for enrichment massively corrosive even stainless steels hence the need for very inert substaance line the pipes with teflon has all its molecular sockets bound already very unreactive sense worth bill the artifical pacemaker was invented wilson greatbatch american biomedical engineer the bill authorizing nasa was signed october clear that nasa had nothing with the invention the pacemaker
sci.space	space manuevering tug was hst servicing mission prb access digex net pat writes given that what described for the hst seemed the smt and given the mass amrgins the discovery mission tight enough that spacewalking has carefully constrained edo pallets spare suits extra mmu has someone actually verified that mass the predominant constraint this mission you seem assuming without giving supporting evidence why not this quick test goldins philosophjy faster cheaper better build real fast space tug handle the boost the hst using clean cryo fuels and get ready before the hst mission pat this would slower more expensive and worse slower the shuttle mission scheduled december that less than eight months away there way you could build new hardware retrain and reschedule the eva that time more expensive your proposal still requires the shuttle everything was going execpt fire the oms addition you added significant extra cost for new piece complex hardware according gao report the omv have before there are only two currently planned missions that could use such vehicle hst and axaf since axaf has since been scaled back and hst can rely the shuttle there doesn seem any need for your vehicle josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu find way make one attributed hannibal
sci.space	vandalizing the sky article apr mksol dseg com mccall mksol dseg com fred mccall writes news cso uiuc edu gfk uxa cso uiuc edu george krumins writes was suggesting that the minority professional and amateur astronomers have the right dark uncluttered night sky and from whence does this right stem that overrides the rights the rest let get this right sorry try again let get this straight well maybe that too poor choice words someone might think pushing gay agenda how about let try understand this phrasing extreme minority one have right beautiful world you the other hand have the right make ugly one because you presume speak for all the rest and cannot complain curious say what objecting here floating billboard that presumably would move around the sky for one against legislating all just wish that people had bit common courtesy and would consider how their greed for money impacts the more ethereal and aesthetic values that make human this includes the need for wild and unspoiled things including the night sky see you don want any legislation that might impinge you you just want everyone else the planet what you want and you want everyone you wish insist putting something that will impact everyone for selfish reasons without any legislation and one else can even object somehow think this whole shoving contest has gotten way off the track ready let this thread die quick and merciful death insisting perfect safety for people who don have the balls live the real world mary shafer nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg com don speak for others and they don speak for hathaway baltimore
sci.space	single launch space station article cmu edu mcimail com karl dishaw wrote andy cohen cohen ssdgwy mdc com writes the single launch core station concept shuttle external tank and solid rocket boosters would used launch the station into orbit shuttle main engines would mounted the tail the station module for launch and jettisoned after separation why jettison the ssmes why not hold them and have shuttle bring them down use spares good question asked that myself however since this option expensive the freedom derivative the issue will likely moot
sci.space	long term human missions article jgladu bcm tmc edu grungy writes ward pashosh wisdom weizmann ward paul wrote calculators teflon your eggs don stick the pan pacemakers kept grandfather alive from until think should tell them about the things that they are using now that are spinoffs the space program that the only way you can prove its worth them and they vote and pay taxes too the continued existence the space program relies upon that money just btw don forget velcro least honest velcro dates from the have doubts about everything listed above just because was developed the space age doesn mean was space spin off btw don forget tang dong
sci.space	space station redesign jsc alternative article apr ubc davem ubc dave michelson wrote article ralibinnc cbl umd edu mike starburst umd edu michael santangelo writes dbm lerc nasa gov david mckissock writes text options and deleted option single core launch station this the jsc lead option basically you take diameter cylinder that long slap space shuttle main engines the backside put nose cone the top attached regular shuttle external tank and regular set solid rocket motors and launch the can some key features are complete end end ground integration and checkout tangentially mounted fixed solar panels body mounted radiators which adds protection against micrometeroid orbital debris centerline docking ports one each end berthing ports single pressurized volume approximately cubic feet twice the volume skylab floors center passageway between floors housekeeping power somehow have strange attraction for this idea living modular home maybe has altered mind the only thing that scares the part about simply strapping ssme and nosecone and just launching have this vision something going terribly wrong with the launch resulting the complete loss the new modular space station not just peice would the case with staged orbit construction certainly like this option much more like the original phase studies from the early good stuff this actually more like the stuff from phase and mol phase ended with power tower approach also very expensive terms upfront development costs all you get redistribution costs from the shuttle flights the contractors who build
sci.space	vandalizing the sky rbunge access digex net robert bunge writes article agi mju news cso uiuc edu jbh uxa cso uiuc edu josh hopkins writes wondering vandalize the proper word use this situation dictionary defines vandalism the willful malicious destructuion public private property especially anything beautiful artisitc would agree the sky beautiful but not that public private property public because belongs everybody the sky does not this time belong anyone ownership necessary the definition because someone has have the authority decide the action was good bad neither you own brick wall then can unilaterally declare that spraypainting name right and you don have the authority declare that wrong the owner may find artistic she may call the police this applies the argument bright satellites more than street lights vandalism because many people power companies maliciously waste light maliciously implies evil intent the lighting companies aren going out their way spoil the sky they just don care they can sell you your city your state unshielded light that wastes percent its light they make more money never mind that your money wasted the responsibility the customer choose the most efficient hardware that what your city will buy that what the lighting company will sell write letter city hall please note that not defending light pollution the orignial focus this thread was space based light sources josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu find way make one attributed hannibal
sci.space	hst servicing mission scheduled for days article rrgu access digex net prb access digex net pat writes the thing designed retrievable pinch indeed this dictated rather odd design for the solar arrays since they had retractable well extendable why not design the solar arrays detachable the shuttle going retunr the hst what bother are some arrays they can detached emergency but expensive hardware not thrown away casually bearing mind that nobody knew the design was defective the deployment crew had found some nasty flaw the lid failing open for example would have been bit embarrassing have throw the solar arrays away get the thing back the payload bay svr resembles high speed collision henry spencer toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	mars observer update forwarded from the mars observer project mars observer status report april pdt dss madrid meter antenna did not acquire the expected mars observer spacecraft signal the scheduled beginning track yesterday morning approximately indications were that the spacecraft had entered fault protection mode sometime between that time and receipt normal telemetry the end the previous station pass dss goldstone meter antenna approximately the evening before entry into contingency mode was verified when signal was reacquired and telemetry indicated that the spacecraft was sun coning after subsystem engineers reported all systems performing nominally fault protection telemetry modes were reconfigured and memory readouts command system audit queue and aacs attitude and articulation control subsystem starex performed these readouts verified that contingency mode entry occurred shortly after yesterday preliminary indications are that sun ephemeris check failure triggered fault protection however the flight team will determining the precise cause over the next few days last evening the spacecraft had been commanded back inertial reference and was stable that mode the flight team planning command the spacecraft back array normal spin state today magnetometer calibration activities had completed prior contingency mode entry mag calibration data has been recorded digital tape recorders and playback dtrs and scheduled completed yesterday was postponed when contingency mode entry halted flight sequence execution the flight team developing strategy restart complete data playback present planning perform playbacks between soon wednesday late friday next week dependent contingency mode recovery activity dtr playback will performed via the high gain antenna bits per second upon verification successful dtr playbacks downlink will maintained the rate ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab telos the aweto from new zealand pasadena part caterpillar and part vegetable
sci.space	what planets are habitable article zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes article rpt hsc usc edu khayash hsc usc edu ken hayashida writes for human tolerances the best example human endurance terms altitude low atmospheric pressure and lower oxygen partial pressure opinion the scaling everest without oxygen assistance this quite feat physiological endurance indeed the extreme limit what humanly possible possible only because mount everest fairly low latitude there slight equatorial bulge the atmosphere beyond what induced the earth rotation thanks the overall circulation pattern the atmosphere air cools poles and descends flowing back equator where warmed and rises and this helps just enough make everest without oxygen feasible only just feasible mind you the guys who did reported hallucinations and other indications oxygen starvation and probably incurred some permanent brain damage climbers regard metres and the death zone even oxygen you are slowly dying everest most climbers spend only short period time before descending been above once descending little feels like walking into jungle the air thick everest winter without oxygen support party alpine style that the ultimate challenge solo dillon pyron the opinions expressed are those the dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated when here when home texans vote robin hood need pyron skndiv dseg com solutions not gestures padi
sci.space	satellite around pluto mission article apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes there plan put satellite around each planet the solar system keep watch help better ask questions before spout opinion been progressing towards that goal for years now precede any orbiting mission with flyby missions course gets harder work our way farther away from earth just starting work out the outer planets galileo will orbit jupiter and cassini around saturn how about mission unmanned pluto stay orbit and record things around and near and pluto well first things first flyby mission first since much easier and faster the fast pluto flyby mission approved then launch pluto mission before the end the decade pluto orbiter however requires larger spacecraft and longer cruise period orbit insertion requires more fuel has carried along and restricts the trajectory slower approach velocity pluto imagine though that would doing neptune orbiting mission before pluto orbiting mission unless the pluto flyby turns something really interesting ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab telos the aweto from new zealand pasadena part caterpillar and part vegetable
sci.space	hst servicing mission scheduled for days prb access digex net pat writes article zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes the thing designed retrievable pinch indeed this dictated rather odd design for the solar arrays since they had retractable well extendable and may thus have indirectly contributed the array flapping problems why not design the solar arrays detachable the shuttle going retunr the hst what bother are some arrays just fit them with quick release one space walk use the second canadarm remove the arrays you may want put hubble back the payload bay for reboost and you don want clip off the panels each time for the gamma ray observatory one the design requirements was that there stored energy mecahnisms springs explosive squibs gas shocks etc used for deployment this was partially that everything could reeled back put back the payload bay and partially for safety considerations heard that the wings cruise missile would cut you half you were standing their swath when they opened back when the shuttle would going every other day with cost orbit per pound everybody designed things for easy servicing david palmer palmer alumni caltech edu palmer tgrs gsfc nasa gov
sci.space	philosophy quest how boldly article assy ece cmu edu loss ece cmu edu doug loss writes analog magazine did article similar subject quite few years ago the question was alien spacecraft landed washington what was the proper organization deal with the state department alien ambassadors the defense department alien invaders the immigration and naturalization service illegal aliens the department the interior new non human species etc was very much question our perception the aliens not anything intrinsic their nature the bibliography for the article cited philosophical paper the name and author which sadly forget believe the author was italian what constitutes legal and moral person being entitled the rights normally accorded person the paper was quite interesting recall this whole different situation aliens were able get here prior being able get there one might conclude that they would more advanced and therefore more intelegent that are however get somewhere where there life chances are wont able communicate with them will have clue weather they are intelegent not think you have very careful here the answer yes the human track record helping those poor underpriveleged cultures does underpriveleged mean not having enough priveleges terrible the usual result the destruction radical reorganization the culture this may not always wrong but that the way bet that good point hadn thought that way question however was more along the lines every year the spends millions tax dollars and giving tax breaks individuals and companies who feed the poor foreign countries while thousands our own people sleep the streets night would give the economicly dissadvantaged another planet hadn resolved these issues our own but your comment brings another good question over the years have decided that certain cultures need improvements the native americans good example prior our attempt civilize them the native american culture had very little crime homelessnes poverty then the europeans came along and now they have those and more encounter life elsewhere tell them they have live houses farm the land and church sunday have day bobo
sci.space	hst servicing mission scheduled for days article apr stsci edu hathaway stsci edu writes after all the space walking they are going boost the hst orbit think right now sitting miles they would like don know the exact orbit numbers ben says this boost idea all news here you know something don please supply source would nice for the schedulers observations know where the thing going these altitude numbers are also way off best source has minimum altitude the pmdb kilometers maximum altitude the pmdb kilometers delta altitude the pmdb kilometers pmdb proposal management data base used schedule observations sure your numbers are far better then mine said above don have exact numbers order perform the boost the hst the oms engines will fired for long period now the shuttle heavy thing the hst isn light either the amount oms fuel needed fly both substantial small booster carried and used boost hst own will weigh significantly less then the oms fuel required boost both hst and shuttle for given orbital change could you supply some calculations you might check some recent postings that explained that small booster suggested does not now exist comparing the mass something that doesn exist the mass the oms fuel seems impossible the contamination threat also remains how different would the contamination threat small manuevering tug from that the shuttle and oms engines know that small manuevering tug exists but maybe one could soup bus does anyone out there have the clasified specs hte bus would able provide enough control force balance the hst and still have the rocket thrust hurl her into decent high orbit the hst could even get placed into some sort medium orbit the reason they want high orbit less antenna pointing and longer drag life longer drag life can understand but could you explain the antenna pointing sorry that should intrument pointing whatever the problem the tilt array big constraint hst ops tell about although the arrays can and are moved perfectly well utilizing the second electronics box getting them both working much desireable reclaim redundancy plus the second box gets fritzy you could shitter ville real fast don mean jump you helpful suggestions are always welcome and all know the more ideas the better but want the true situation described clearly and correctly lest some get confused regards hathaway the problem one seems have the exact numbers when the mission was planned originally spacewalks and astronauts there was enormous concern over the mass margins for the flight they have now planned for eva day mission and have reserve eva and emergency eva obviously that coming from somewhere guess the oms burn fuel boost margin just figured goldin wants really prove out faster cheaper better have some the whiz kids slap together expendable space manuevering tug out bus and use that for the boost has better then using the discovery tow truck pat
sci.space	revival san marco was commercial space news article ofa fidonet org wales larrison ofa fidonet org writes commercial space news space technology investor number this might point out some key discriminators judging the feasibility commercial launch site these include there identified key customer provide core usage sufficient recover setup costs there market advantage using the site can existing infrastructure used modified the site can financing found low enough cost support the investment other commercial launch site ventures including those woomera poker flat cape york white sands alabama off shore platform hawaii and vandenberg have also judged against these criteria opinion some these ventures are flying hope and speculation and not sound financial grounds this reminds fuzzy brain recalls that somebody was thinking reviving the san marco launch platform off the coast kenya where the copernicus satellite was launched around this true imagining possibly connected with one the italian programs revive the scout new version that old platform must getting pretty rusty and there ain lot infrastructure with bill higgins beam jockey see you fermi national accelerator laboratory white sands june bitnet higgins fnal bitnet you bring your view graphs internet higgins fnal fnal gov and bring rocketship span hepnet higgins col pete worden the
sci.space	two line orbital element set space shuttle the most current orbital elements from the norad two line element sets are carried the celestial bbs and are updated daily when possible documentation and tracking software are also available this system service the satellite user community the most current elements for the current shuttle mission are provided below the celestial bbs may accessed hours day bps using data bits stop bit parity element sets also updated daily shuttle elements and some documentation and software are also available via anonymous ftp from archive afit mil the directory pub space sts kelso assistant professor space operations tkelso afit mil air force institute technology
sci.space	gamma ray bursters where are they picture our universe floating like log river the log floats down the river occasionally strikes rocks the bank the bottom other logs when this collission occurs kinetic energy translated into heat the log degrades gets scraped and other energy translaions occur the distribution damage the log depends the shape the log however very small virus mite the head termite the center the log the shock waves from the collissions would appear uniformly random direction this theory for grb they are evidence our universe interacting with other universes why not makes just much sense the grb coming from the oort cloud the log theory universes can ruled out course layman the physics world you physicists out there tell about this bob combs astronautical engineer stanford telecom
sci.space	long term space voyanges and effect newsgroup tstroup force ssd lmsc lockheed com writes response original post first you need the literature search there lot information out there maybe should just pick specific area long term habitation this could useful especially make available the net then can look methods analyzing the technologies such detailed literature search would interest ourselves space advocates and clearly important existing space programs essence would dividing the space life science issues into various technical problems which could solved with various technologies this database acceptable solutions various problems could form the basis detailed discussions involving people from the bionet isunet and any other source unless there unbelievable outpouring interest this the net think should develop detailed data base the literature search first then accomplish that can real analysis the data base itself could useful for future engineers that response ken what you think tim well agree hope others chime with suggestions specific technologies which could applied towards the maintenance earth like atmosphere long duration spacecraft tim think should try looking atmosphere first this seems the single most fundamental issue keeping anyone alive all taught that when supporting patient you look for maintaining airway keeping with trauma training and keeping emergency medicine professor happy suggest that look the issues surrounding regenerable atmospheric circuit howz that tim ken
sci.space	moon image weather sat image you brighten the dark part gif with your viewer you will see two other objects near the upper left part the moon one actually between the weather satellite and the moon bill shaughnessy
sci.space	gamma ray bursters how energetic could they prb access digex net pat writes article rou ginn gap caltech edu palmer cco caltech edu david palmer writes prb access digex com pat writes article apr vax mankato msus edu belgarath vax mankato msus edu writes energetic for close for the coronal model found around erg sec and lastly for the cosmological model that what you call moderately energetic say any suggestions about what could put out that much energy one second jeremy big capacitor real big capacitor been suggested specifically lightning strikes between clouds the interstellar medium how big lightning rod would you need for protection and would you need jupiter ground plane pat sounds like you want star for the ground plane phil fraering seems like every day find out all sorts stuff pgf srl cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man
sci.space	internet resources stk vax stockton edu pontificated taking course entitled exploring science using internet for our final project are find compendium internet resources dealing with science related topic chose astronomy anyway was wondering anyone out there knew any interesting resources internet that provide information astronomy space nasa anything like that one the sci space faq postings deal with this archived somewhere perhaps someone can post where don remember james green jgreen oboe calpoly edu didn nobody saw you can prove anything bart simpson
sci.space	revival san marco was commercial space news higgins fnalf fnal gov bill higgins beam jockey writes article ofa fidonet org wales larrison ofa fidonet org writes commercial space news space technology investor number other commercial launch site ventures including those woomera poker flat cape york white sands alabama off shore platform hawaii and vandenberg have also judged against these criteria opinion some these ventures are flying hope and speculation and not sound financial grounds this reminds fuzzy brain recalls that somebody was thinking reviving the san marco launch platform off the coast kenya where the copernicus satellite was launched around this true imagining possibly connected with one the italian programs revive the scout new version that old platform must getting pretty rusty and there ain lot infrastructure with information shows that the last san marco launch was there seem have been total seven before that seem recall that someone either asi the university rome includes money their annual budget for maintainance the platforms there are actually two the italians have been spending money develop advanced scout however recent events the italian space program and the italian government overall make skeptical that this will get off the ground the near future josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu find way make one attributed hannibal
sci.space	philosophy quest how boldly article apr hemlock cray com bobo thejester cray com bob kierski writes over the years have decided that certain cultures need improvements the native americans good example prior our attempt civilize them the native american culture had very little crime homelessnes poverty this shall say overly broad statement particular are you referring the native american culture that existed the one that existed simplify things assuming talking about the eastern rather than the whole continent given that those were radically different cultures which one are you referring encounter life elsewhere tell them they have live houses farm the land and church sunday note that the pre columbian native americans east the mississippi did all these things well maybe not sunday but they did have organized religions not mention cities and governments you are judging the native americans the tribal culture that existed you might want read account the soto expedition find out what pre columbian native american culture least the more civilized parts the continent was like svr resembles high speed collision henry spencer toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	transistor tube also ask any electric guitar enthusiast which type amp they prefer and they tell you tube type since tubes have lower distortion and noise than transistors course most your electric guitar types just say tubes sound better dude course they then turn the reverb the gain add the analog delay line and the fuzz box think they wouldn notice the distortion forgot the phase shifters kind absurd isn some players even want more distortion especially the hendrix fans but there are lot them out there that can only afford the amp who like playing music without distortion then there are your hard core hendirx fans that want particular types distortion they make not their amps also transistors have the advantage both waste heat and energy use mainly because the heaters the cathodes the tubes but how they compare mechanical systems didn see thing about waste heat from babbage and haven seen one those mechanical while anybodie guess tommy mac tom mcwilliams they communicated with the communists ibm msu edu and pacified the pacifists timbuk
sci.space	big thanks like thank everyone and anyone who sent information help with project send report all who requested copy keith malinowski stk vax stockton edu stockton state college pomona
sci.space	vandalizing the sky dale sez hathaway post right the money little lengthy short orbiting billboard would trash the same way that billboard the earth trash billboards make place look trashy that why there are laws many places prohibiting their use the light pollution complaints are mainly attempt find some tangible reason against orbiting billboards because people don feel morally justified complain the grounds that these things would defile the beauty the sky don buy the things had value all people wouldn spend money make them their lack value just your opinion not actual fact which neither philisophical legal basis for prohibiting them the other hand lived oakbrook for while where zoning laws prohibit billboards you mention above think was fine law despite contradictory basis would guess that the best legal and moral basis for protest would violation private property bought this house out the boondocks specifically enjoy hobby amateur astronomy now this billboard has made that investment worthless want the price the property damages wouldn take too many succesful cases like that make bill sats prohibitively expensive tommy mac tom mcwilliams they communicated with the communists ibm msu edu and pacified the pacifists timbuk
sci.space	hall generators from ussr folks last year america bought two hall generators which are used thrusters for space vehicles from former ussr could recall correctly these devices were sent jpl pasadena labs for testing and evaluation just curious know how these devices work and what what principle involved what became them there was also some controversy that the russian actually cheated sold inferior devices and not the one they use there space vehicles any info will appreciated thank advance tamoor zaidi lockheed commercial aircraft center norton afb san bernardino teezee netcom com cleveland freenet edu
sci.space	human habitale planets habital planets are also dependent what kind plant life can grown and such length growing season that you want something more than vat food argh ratehr eat mre for along period time know fairbanks furbanks some the winter can get but the summer can get and such know worse places incans and sherpa and other low pressure atmosphere and such are limit human adaptability someone mentioend that incan woman must come lower elevations have babies brought term true remember book pourrnelle think that delt with planet was lower density air wonder what the limit the other end atmospheres limiting human needs and stresses and not alien possibilties thou aliens might more adapted totally alien human environment such the upper atmosphere jupiter almost makes bio engineered life easy michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu not high just jacked
sci.space	combo propulsion system how hard easy would have combo mission such solar sail the way out the outer planets but once near orbit use more normal means seems that everyone talks about using one system and one system only per mission why not have more than one propulsion system did miss something did die committee michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu not high just jacked
sci.space	electrical spacecraft via magnetic field earth okay the earth has magnetic field unless someone missed something okay you put object the earth magnetic field produces electricty now the question can you use electricity power space low earth orbit vehicle and fyou can can you use the magnetic field the earth power can the idea dragless satellite used part create the electrical field after all the dragless satellite might wrong suspended between pilons the the pilons compensate for drag think know what want say just not sure how say dragless satellite sounds interestingly enough liek generator michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu not high just jacked sorry for spelling have not brought windows online with modem and comm program yet almos tthere
sci.space	rocket types article rpv wraith uow edu wraith uow edu glen justin balmer says message rpv wraith uow edu not has anybody heard the particle propolsion system thanx glen balmer believe that former employer hughes aircraft company has working ion propulsion system for satellites jay brinkmeyer
sci.space	mothership for flybys and cutting costs getting wierd again okay have figure out that mission specifically pluto large and expensive okay what about launching one probe with multiple parts kind liek the old mirv principle old cold war days basically what mean design mother ship that has piggy backed probes for different missions namely different planets each probe would tied with the mother ship earth the case may this good when and for mars the mars mission can act either mother ship relay point for the probes also the mother ship would powered not the mars mission normal propulsion but also solar sail main reason for solar sail race see what can done and autmoated the sail would get the probes were they needed know the asteroid meteor clouds and such might get the way sail main reasonf mother ship idea make more economoical send multiple probes mission satellites exploreres different places and cut costs the probes could fly bys shall see michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu not high just jacked
sci.space	hst servicing mission scheduled for days access digex net prb access digex net pat writes how different would the contamination threat small manuevering tug from that the shuttle and oms engines the aperture door will shut during reboost using the shuttle means that there will someone nearby pry the door open again should stick just figured goldin wants really prove out faster cheaper better have some the whiz kids slap together expendable space manuevering tug out bus and use that for the boost clear that the whiz kids are not running the show any case not prudent stick slapped together explosive device the end billion dollar asset that you like see again wiseacres might say that shuttle slapped together explosive device but least had some testing
sci.space	mothership for flybys and cutting costs article may aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes getting wierd again perhaps even weird okay have figure out that mission specifically pluto large and expensive hmmm you might want read this group more carefully there been good amount discussion the proposed pluto fast flyby pff mission that specifically designed small and cheap matthew deluca georgia institute technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism matthew internet matthew phantom gatech edu
sci.space	ftp images astro server commend everybody look the ftp site ftp cicb ethernet address the directory pub images astro there are lots images all kinds astronomy subject especially gif format and new directory some jpl animations for your comfort readme files all subdirectories give size and description each image and days newer images list readmenew note you can connect anonymous ftp user then the quota for each users connected the same time the server responds you connection refused patient note this site reachable gopher roland cicb ethernet address divers serveurs ftp serveur ftp cri cicb images astro you have any comments suggestions problems then you can contact mail rousself univ rennes hope you enjoy
sci.space	temperature the dark sky apr head cfa harvard edu willner head cfa harvard edu steve willner writes cooked that were the case any event the energy density starlight comes out about the same that the microwave background and believe that correct yeah what about that this just weird coincidence and let not see all the same hands this time tvf
sci.space	boeing tsto was words from chairman boeing description boeing study two staged spaceplane using supersonic ramjets deleted other words boeing not seriously thinking about reliable less expensive access orbit they just like fool around with exotic airplanes
sci.space	gamma ray bursters where are they you should have been following the discussion grbs going sci astro been discussed some detail with references even
sci.space	moon image weather sat image article billoshc bqyy netcom com billosh netcom com william shaughnessy says you brighten the dark part gif with your viewer you will see two other objects near the upper left part the moon one actually between the weather satellite and the moon bill shaughnessy what are those other objects ufos
sci.space	boeing tsto was words from chairman boeing article schumach convex convex com schumach convex com richard schumacher writes other words boeing not seriously thinking about reliable less expensive access orbit they just like fool around with exotic airplanes this presupposes that supersonic ramjet aircraft spacecraft can reliable low cost this unproven matthew deluca georgia institute technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism matthew internet matthew phantom gatech edu
sci.space	single launch space station andy cohen cohen ssdgwy mdc com writes the single launch core station concept shuttle external tank and solid rocket boosters would used launch the station into orbit shuttle main engines would mounted the tail the station module for launch and jettisoned after separation karl dishaw mcimail com replied why jettison the ssmes why not hold them and have shuttle bring them down use spares one performance reason comes mind you jettison the ssme you don have drag them with you when you perform your circularization burn orbit ssme are just dead weight since don have ssme pressurization mechanism which works zero this means that you can use them for boost anything else dead weight has couple advantages but more disadvantages throw away ssme might let use some the old ssme which are not quite man ratable but doubt that the cost launch failure too high ken jenks nasa jsc space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov development the space station inevitable the rising the sun wernher von braun
sci.space	kaliningrad was tsniimach enterprise baube writes tsniimach enterprise described military establishment they are located near the npo energia facility kaliningrad outside moscow this facility kaliningrad this not near moscow fact the east prussian konigsberg now russian enclave the baltic coast served ships and rail and the intrepid traveller europe would find accessible and might even want try arrange tour hmm there must two towns with the same name kaliningrad located just north moscow correct the home several russian space enterprises including npo energia krunichev fakel and tsniimach the main russian manned spacecraft control facility also located here kaliningrad easily reachable auto from moscow and tours can arranged call ahead though there are still armed military guards many these facilities who don speak english aren well paid and are rather bored very popular destination with western space industry types the moment wales larrison space technology investor maximus
sci.space	astronauts what does weightlessness feel like article apr morgan com jlieb morgan com jerry liebelson writes want know what weightlessness actually feels like for example there constant sensation falling ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov replied yes weightlessness does feel like falling may feel strange first but the body does adjust the feeling not too different from that sky diving astronaut but flown the several times tell you about first flight the set weightlessness shoulders lifted and spine straightened felt momentary panic and hands tried grab onto something like the strap keeping firmly against the floor prevent from falling remember conciously over ruling involuntary motions ears felt not heard rush and could feel fluid moving head like when you get from bed while you have cold that point ceased concentrate physiological response since had some science was busy keeping experiment going and keeping track all the parts during the return gravity and subsequent pull out didn really pay attention physiology that time after about parabolas discovered that was performing one the tricks discovered keep myself from getting motion sickness was keeping head very still and moving very slowly all except hands and arms which needed rapid concious motion for experiment during the pull out parabola queasiness finally started get and had use one those air sickness bags was basically useless for the rest that flight went the seats the back the plane while partner whom drafted for just this purpose kept working the experiment while was ill was vetran vomit comet rider one those anomalous people who don get sick the thing didn think constant sensation falling much like swimming air very close the sensations feel when scuba diving and turn head down and fins jerry and what the motion sickness that some astronauts occasionally experience ron the body reaction strange environment appears induced partly physical discomfort and part mental distress some people are more prone than others like some people are more prone get sick roller coaster ride than others the mental part usually induced lack clear indication which way down the shuttle normally oriented with its cargo bay pointed towards earth the earth ground above the head the astronauts about the astronauts experience some form motion sickness and nasa has done numerous tests space try see how keep the number occurances down volunteer jsc space biomedical laboratory where they among other things some the tests ron mentions was one called the pre flight adaptation trainer which consisted chair several degree freedom motion base with moving geometric visual aids the goal was measure the victim subject responses and subjective physiological descriptions and see repeated exposure this environment could reduce future motion sickness symptoms jerry don know any former active duty astronauts who personally read this group know that bruce mccandless office had been waiting anxiously for the space station redesign option posted last week but don think bruce reads the group himself ken jenks nasa jsc space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov the man who makes mistakes does not usually make anything edward john phelps american diplomat lawyer
sci.space	deployable space dock article apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes why not build inflatable space dock henry spencer henry zoo toronto edu wrote you doing large scale satellite servicing being able pressurized hangar makes considerable sense the question whether anyone going doing large scale satellite servicing the near future the point justifying development such thing that mighty fine idea but since you asked why not respond putting aside the application such space dock there are other factors consider than just pressurized volume temperature control difficult space and your inflatable hangar will have incorporate thermal insulation maybe double walled inflatable micrometeoroid protection and radiation protection are also required don think this will clear plastic bubble more likely look like big white ball made out the same kind multi layer fabric that soft torso space suits are made out today because almost all manned space vessels skylab mir salyut used their pressurization for increased structural rigidity even though they had have metal skins they still kind qualify inflatable the inflation process would have carefully controlled the space environment reduces ductility exposed materials due temperature extremes monotomic oxygen impingement and radiation effects materials your fabric may not retain any flexibility for long this may not matter even after inflation pressure changes the hangar may cause flexing the fabric which could lead holes and tears ductility decreases these are some the technical difficulties which the llnl proposal for inflatable space station dealt with varying degrees success ken jenks nasa jsc space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov good ideas are common what uncommon are people who work hard enough bring them about ashleigh brilliant
sci.space	teflon long term human missions hausner qucis queensu alejo hausner writes rek siss robert kaye writes just few contributions from the space program regular society teflon your eggs don stick the pan sorry split hairs but just read the making the atomic bomb that teflon was developed during world war sealant was needed for the tubing which uranium hexafluoride passed was gradually enriched difussion very corrosive and some very inert yet flexible material was needed for the seals think you both right teflon was actually discovered accident before wwii from what heard they had some chemical assume was tetrafluoroethylene tank and but the valve got gummed cutting open revealed that had polymerized the material was useful for seals but had major problem for say the linings vessels wouldn stick metal what the space program did was find way get stick thus had stick frypans the market the late dan tilque dant techbook com
sci.space	llnl inflated space stations was deployable space dock kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov writes article apr aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes why not build inflatable space dock discussion pros and cons deleted these are some the technical difficulties which the llnl proposal for inflatable space station dealt with varying degrees success could someone give the references the llnl proposal been meaning track down conjuntion with something working not directly related space stations but think many the principles will carry over josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu find way make one attributed hannibal
sci.space	hst servicing mission scheduled for days article bdgm zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes article rrgu access digex net prb access digex net pat writes the thing designed retrievable pinch indeed this dictated rather odd design for the solar arrays since they had retractable well extendable why not design the solar arrays detachable the shuttle going retunr the hst what bother are some arrays they can detached emergency but expensive hardware not thrown away casually bearing mind that nobody knew the design was defective the deployment crew had found some nasty flaw the lid failing open for example would have been bit embarrassing have throw the solar arrays away get the thing back the payload bay guess kind aesthetics argument can see the solar arrays being expensive and there could contingencies where you would throwing away brand new solar cells but seems cheap compared toa shuttle mission wouldn think they would bother pat
sci.space	political banner space well you better not get the shuttle your launch vehicle and most elv have too far backlog for political messages during the campaign season the candidates for president had launched one right around now getting launch for perot and they had used the shuttle seeing launches for nixon now more then ever pat
sci.space	teflon long term human missions article rtghr techbook techbook com dant techbook techbook com dan tilque writes the material was useful for seals but had major problem for say the linings vessels wouldn stick metal what the space program did was find way get stick thus had stick frypans the market the late ejon matejevic who was full professor clarkson university last heard developed the process for sticking teflon metals don think was nasa project cuz heard held the patent and had made quite bundle off anyone from clarkson know the exact story never wanted ask him myself pat
sci.space	space manuevering tug was hst servicing mission article bbow news cso uiuc edu jbh uxa cso uiuc edu josh hopkins writes prb access digex net pat writes given that what described for the hst seemed the smt and given the mass amrgins the discovery mission tight enough that spacewalking has carefully constrained edo pallets spare suits extra mmu has someone actually verified that mass the predominant constraint this mission you seem assuming without giving supporting evidence someone from nasa posted that there were very significant mass margins the hst boost mission while back had asked why not carry the edo pallet and the answer was the mass margins were tight enough they weren even carrying extra suits why not this quick test goldins philosophjy faster cheaper better build real fast space tug handle the boost the hst using clean cryo fuels and get ready before the hst mission pat this would slower more expensive and worse slower the shuttle mission scheduled december that less than eight months away there way you could build new hardware retrain and reschedule the eva that time where wingo when you need him come knock that off you forget that during skylab they did overnight mission planning for the repair eva also during the intelsat mission they did overnight wetf simulations somehow think they could train new eva months and for building hardware anything can built you want bad enough you forget the bus already built all they ahve soup even test delta mission don get into this mode negativism besides the rate missions slip the discovery won launch this mission until march that almost year more expensive your proposal still requires the shuttle everything was going execpt fire the oms addition you added significant extra cost for new piece complex hardware but how much more expensive the second hst servicing mission you forget there bum fgs the solar array electronics are getting hinky and there still months until the servicing mission the time for the space walks are growing rapidly this was orignally planned out spacewalks now they are eva with reserve walks the smt can avoid second servicing mission that million saved the weight savings means they can sit orbit for days and handle any contingency problems that quite savings according gao report the omv have before there are only two currently planned missions that could use such vehicle hst and axaf since axaf has since been scaled back and hst can rely the shuttle there doesn seem any need for your vehicle course there wasn any need for the saturn after apollo too for the problems with the aperture door sure they can work out some way handle that maybe plug made from frozen ice keep out any contamination yet sublime away after teh boost pat
sci.space	combo propulsion system article may aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes how hard easy would have combo mission such solar sail the way out the outer planets but once near orbit use more normal means you got good propulsion system that not useful for deceleration sure you can use chemical rockets for that part but even just doing the deceleration chemically major headache talking seriously high cruising velocities taking the velocity down nearly zero for pluto orbit isn easy with chemical fuels incidentally solar sails are not going suitable the acceleration system for something like this they don anywhere quickly speak head mission planning for the canadian solar sail project although that more less honorary title right now because cssp dormant they can fly mission like this unless you start talking about very advanced systems that drop very close the sun first svr resembles high speed collision henry spencer toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	electrical spacecraft via magnetic field earth article may aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes okay the earth has magnetic field you put object the earth magnetic field produces electricty well not that simple you earth magnetic field and you don generate electricity but can done now the question can you use electricity power space low earth orbit vehicle and fyou can can you use the magnetic field the earth power the way you power things with electricity the answer the first question definitely yes you meant say propel rather than power the answer sort yes you can use interaction with the earth magnetic field get electrical power and there are potential applications for this however bear mind that there free lunch the energy isn coming from nowhere what such systems convert some the energy your orbital velocity into electrical energy there are cases where this useful tradeoff using power obtained this way for propulsion useful only special situations however what you can get your power some other means solar arrays and run the interaction with the magnetic field reverse pumping energy into the orbit rather than taking energy out you want more information trying looking electrodynamic propulsion tether applications and magsails can the idea dragless satellite used part create the electrical field dragless satellite does not magically have drag burns fuel constantly fight drag maintaining the exact orbit would have there was drag this why there are quotes around dragless svr resembles high speed collision henry spencer toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	moon image weather sat image article apr unocal com stgprao unocal com richard ottolini writes article usenet ucs indiana edu turner bigbang astro indiana edu george turner writes image the moon has been caught weather satellite images the earth near midsummer you can see the relfection the sun the ocean cool also during solar eclise you can see the shadow the sun move across the clouds think you mean moon sorry had
sci.space	vandalizing the sky article bir inc cmu edu msu edu tom writes the other hand lived oakbrook for while where zoning laws prohibit billboards you mention above think was fine law despite contradictory basis and lived out there too was nice sleepy farm valley until the butler family decided stick all sorts really tacky high rise office buildings and ruin view the sky guess should have sued somebody pat
sci.space	mothership for flybys and cutting costs article may aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes design mother ship that has piggy backed probes for different missions namely different planets not useful unless you got some truly wonderful propulsion system for the mother ship that can applied the probes otherwise better simply launch the probes independently the outer planets are scattered widely across two dimensional solar system and going one seldom helpful going the next one uranus not the way neptune don judge interplanetary trajectories general what the voyagers did they exploited lineup that occurs only every couple centuries and even voyager took rather indirect route neptune also the mother ship would powered not the mars mission normal propulsion but also solar sail solar sails are pretty useless the outer solar system they also very slow unless you assume quite advanced versions svr resembles high speed collision henry spencer toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	hst servicing mission scheduled for days article rrgu access digex net prb access digex net pat writes article zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes the thing designed retrievable pinch indeed this dictated rather odd design for the solar arrays since they had retractable well extendable and may thus have indirectly contributed the array flapping problems why not design the solar arrays detachable the shuttle going retunr the hst what bother are some arrays just fit them with quick release didn think the stem design was used much for the retrieval for the ability launch tight size sts envelope this own guess based similar designs flown other large sts launched gro uars also there might some consideration given mass requirements stems weight less than conventional finally the hst arrays have the ability detached remember they going replaced with new arrays however acs guy who seen his branch management pull their collective hair out over hst would voice hearty yea using conventional arrays over stems whenever possible half hertz flexible modes thermal snap problem david gsfc
sci.space	gamma ray bursters how energetic could they article apr vax mankato msus edu belgarath vax mankato msus edu writes article rgvjsinnbhq senator bedfellow mit edu jfc athena mit edu john carr writes how much energy does burster put out know energy depends distance which unknown answer the form ergs per megaparsec different spheres oort cloud radius the edge the galaxy the edge the galactic corona and lastly mpc for radius found around erg sec pretty energetic for close for the coronal model found around erg sec and lastly for the cosmological model that what you call moderately energetic say any suggestions about what could put out that much energy one second jeremy supernovae put out forget which but only order magnitude not gamma rays though you hafta get all that into gammas they were mpc but decent fraction the output was gammas could reasonably extragalactic but closer than mpc dunno theory well but can think how get many gammas out maybe should look big radio galaxies can put out erg continually that just the radio there are lot gammas around them too but bursts nah neither these should taken explanations just trying show that those energies are produced things know about greg
sci.space	mothership for flybys and cutting costs article dtd hhi zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes what the voyagers did they exploited lineup that occurs only every couple centuries and even voyager took rather indirect route neptune indirect compared what did voyager traverse substantially greater distance than say hohmann orbit never heard voyager path described indirect before dave michelson davem ubc university british columbia
sci.space	electrical spacecraft via magnetic field earth article may aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes okay the earth has magnetic field unless someone missed something okay you put object the earth magnetic field produces electricty you put conductor changing magnetic field produces voltage the two ways you can that with permanent magnet move the magnet move the conductor the slow shifting the earth magnetic field isn really significant especially when you consider how weak the earth magnetic field begin with now the question can you use electricity power space low earth orbit vehicle and fyou can can you use the magnetic field the earth power well would require generating incredibly large magnetic field repel the earth magnetic field magnet can repel another magnet course this force only works one direction and the magnetic field generated has unimaginably powerful magnetic repulsion drops off and the earth magnetic field the surface already very weak would require some sort unknown superconductor and special nonmagnetic construction and seriously hardenned electronics optical computers perhaps and the physiological danger would significant due the iron content our blood among other things other words forget can the idea dragless satellite used part create the electrical field after all the dragless satellite might wrong suspended between pilons the the pilons compensate for drag think know what want say just not sure how say dragless satellite sounds interestingly enough liek generator missed out the dragless satellite thread but sounds totally bogus from this little bit isaac kuo isaackuo math berkeley edu twinkle twinkle little sig keep less than lines big
sci.space	gamma ray bursters where are they article apr tpl tplrd tpl keithh tplrd tpl keith harwood writes article rbl einnip gap caltech edu palmer cco caltech edu david palmer writes prb access digex com pat writes what evidence indicates that gamma ray bursters are very far away given the enormous power was just wondering what they are quantum black holes something like that fairly close why would they have galactic ranges david gives good explaination the deductions from the isotropic edged distribution whit they are either part the universe part the oort cloud don know what you mean edged but surely there are two other possibilities for isotropic distribution near interstellar within the disc the galaxy corona why couldn they earth centred with the edge occuring the edge the gravisphere know there isn any mechanism for them but there isn mechanism for the others either ross smith wanganui alien acheron amigans gen among the gods there dispute which one them originally thought christianity they call the great leg pull apollo has the best claim but sizeable minority support pluto god the dead the grounds that has really sick sense humour tom holt
sci.space	space manuevering tug was hst servicing mission prb access digex net pat writes wrote prb access digex net pat writes given that what described for the hst seemed the smt has someone actually verified that mass the predominant constraint this mission you seem assuming without giving supporting evidence someone from nasa posted that there were very significant mass margins the hst boost mission while back had asked why not carry the edo pallet and the answer was the mass margins were tight enough they weren even carrying extra suits how much mass saved not burning the oms that the critical question data shows that the oms engines hold propellant that substantial fraction going used for the first oms burn the reentry burn and the reserve pat tell how much fuel the altitude change going take and how much the edo pallet bus and extra parts are going mass you can make the numbers work out then interested after you show that can done then tell how much the edo pallet bus and extra equipment going cost why not this quick test goldins philosophjy faster cheaper better build real fast space tug handle the boost the hst using clean cryo fuels and get ready before the hst mission pat this would slower more expensive and worse where wingo when you need him come knock that off you forget that during skylab they did overnight mission planning for the repair eva also during thexd intelsat mission they did overnight wetf simulations somehow think they could train new eva months first while astronauts certainly have done evas with minimal planning that was because they had they don like that general rule second remember why they had improvise during intelsat they were trying attach motor piece hardware that wasn designed that trying shortcut the training only going make repeat more likely third they don have eight months they have however much time left after someone comes with plan shows can work and gets approved you may think have pessimistic attitude think realistic not saying that the engineering task impossible few engineering tasks are what saying that this neither cost effective nor feasible under nasa management and for building hardware anything can built you want bad enough you forget the bus already built all they ahve soup even test delta mission all they have soup just what does that mean don get into this mode negativism besides the rate missions slip the discovery won launch this mission until march that almost year more expensive your proposal still requires the shuttle everything was going execpt fire the oms addition you added significant extra cost for new piece complex hardware but how much more expensive the second hst servicing mission the second servicing mission contingency you have neither shown that would necessary without your plan nor that would unnecessary with your plan you forget there bum fgs the solar array electronics are getting hinky and there still months until the servicing mission pat haven forgotten the smt can avoid second servicing mission that million saved pat that million minus the cost the new hardware minus the cost the extra struff you want bring along minus development and mangement costs minus extra operating costs tanstaafl according gao report the omv have before there are only two currently planned missions that could use such vehicle hst and axaf since axaf has since been scaled back and hst can rely the shuttle there doesn seem any need for your vehicle course there wasn any need for the saturn after apollo too sure that you reread this you see that your argument falacious for the problems with the aperture door sure they can work out some way handle that maybe plug made from frozen ice keep out any contamination yet sublime away after teh boost pat not only this messy and less reliable than device that made perform this task also ignores the point there desire have astronauts available that the door fails open something can done about unless you can provide very reliable way reopening the door you haven solved the problem josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu find way make one attributed hannibal
sci.space	mothership for flybys and cutting costs may aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes getting wierd again okay what about launching one probe with multiple parts kind liek the old mirv principle old cold war days basically what mean design mother ship that has piggy backed probes for different missions namely different planets each probe would tied with the mother ship earth the case may this good when and for mars the mars mission can act either mother ship relay point for the probes can see the need for single big expensive heavy mothership except for voyager style flyby missions few years ago did some calculations grand tour space probe launched saturn the time felt that the idea big mother ship had some merit the voyagers had rather small lightweight craft due the limitations imposed using weak titan iii centaur launchers the concept examined and michael had lot common with the british interplanetary society daedalus project for sending probe barnard star large bus spacecraft carrying several smaller probes dispatched when the ship arrives its destination the saturn supposedly would have been able launch ton payload towards jupiter and beyond the bus could have included far more powerful cameras telescopes scientific equipment and heavier more powerful power source than the voyagers there would limitations weight anymore extremely important the voyagers had perform most their measurements within couple weeks before and after planetary encounter and usually relatively great distance the smaller probes carried aboard might have been based the real voyagers and even smaller version like the one scheduled for launch towards pluto the early century and would have been released various points during the mission the advantages are obvious the bus would have carried out the same basic jupiter saturn uranus neptune mission than voyager did but addition two sub probes could have been relased saturn examining that planet south polar regions before moving pluto this would have enabled nasa map both hemispheres pluto charon and several other probes could have examined parts the jupiter saturn uranus neptune systems that weren examined great detail the voyagers due trajectory related factors small swarm camera equipped miniature space probes released month before encounter would have been too costly for small voyager type mission but entirely feasible launched from heavy well equipped spacecraft and would have learned lot more about the outer planets the reason why the grand tour was cancelled was lack money course marcu michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu not high just jacked
sci.space	what planets are habitable iyd ece cmu edu loss ece cmu edu doug loss writes jpg apr holly bnr jpg bnr jonathan gibbons writes would appreciate any thoughts what makes planet habitable for humans making asumptions that life and similar atmosphere evolve given range physical aspects the planet the question what physical aspects simply disallow earth like conditions dandridge cole and isaac asimov collaborated book titled habitable planets for man think should available most good libraries through inter library loan some more references dole habitable planets for man blaisdell publishing company new york don know this can found any more fogg extra solar planetary systems microcomputer simulation brit interplanetary soc estimate the prevalence biocompatible and habitable planets brit interplanetary soc the first paper includes detailed discussion the physical conditions for habitability del cotter dac brunel
sci.space	fax email wanted for louis friedman planetary society available please send glen moore director science centre wollongong australia fax email gkm uow edu
sci.space	human habitale planets article may aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes habital planets are also dependent what kind plant life can grown and such length growing season that you want something more than vat food argh ratehr eat mre for along period time using greenhouses extend the growing season shouldn problem supprised they don alaska cheaper import perhaps incans and sherpa and other low pressure atmosphere and such are limit human adaptability someone mentioend that incan woman must come lower elevations have babies brought term true the incas had problems with this but the spanish did frank crary boulder
sci.space	large accelerations revisited why can aircraft designed that the pilot can always maintained upright position perpendicular the plane acceleration with the visual helmets now being used that display some the flight parameters and with keyboard and manuvering equipment moving with the pilot pilot may able function accelerations excess anyone currently pursuing this area there reason why this impossible the present time walter wohlmuth walter capone ccsm uiuc edu illinois urbana champaign
sci.space	mothership for flybys and cutting costs recent article nsmca aurora alaska edu writes okay have figure out that mission specifically pluto large and expensive hardly call the current pluto fast flyby proposal too large the new technology insertion currently taking place succeeds the mass will drop too expensive million for two especially when compared other nasa planetary missions basically what mean design mother ship that has piggy backed probes for different missions namely different planets each probe would tied with the mother ship earth the case may this good when and for mars the mars mission can act either mother ship relay point for the probes this proposal would work only your various targets are relaively nearby and the require minimal delta from the mother ship mission the main belt might one possibility for such mission recall paper being presented aiaa deisgn conference irvine february where such proposed spacecraft was designed some grad students austin think four mini spacecraft would detatch from the main each visiting seperate asteroid and then returning the main after analysis the main would then targeted for the most interesting object for further study now could only find that paper jeff foust days historical analogy the last refuge senior planetary science caltech people who can grasp the current jafoust cco caltech edu situation from red mars jeff scn jpl nasa gov kim stanley robinson
sci.space	vandalizing the sky article bdio news cso uiuc edu jbh uxa cso uiuc edu josh hopkins writes rbunge access digex net robert bunge writes vandalism because many people power companies maliciously waste light maliciously implies evil intent the lighting companies aren going out their way spoil the sky they just don care they can sell you your city your state unshielded light that wastes percent its light they make more money never mind that your money wasted the responsibility the customer choose the most efficient hardware that what your city will buy that what the lighting company will sell write letter city hall that fine idea but only works the lighting power company even bothers supply good light fixtures for instance power company virginia recently asked state commission for permission sell more lights various type yet all the different fixture that they sold and wanted sell were bad designs one that wasted the light thus you couldn even buy good light from them most places get good light you have either order special high cost call store arizona some point society starts make rules cars have pass safety tests companies have meet pollution standards etc there are two ways achieve this educate the public that they demand good lighting force code down the lighting companies backs history seems suggest that the latter more likely work please note that not defending light pollution the orignial focus this thread was space based light sources agreed won respond again important for all you spacers out there realize that some people will object various wild ideas that have been presented just like congress would best consult the astronomers lovers the night sky before you try some stunt boost public knowledge about space josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu find way make one attributed hannibal bob bunge rbunge access digex com
sci.space	government and technolgy investment article apr aio jsc nasa gov kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov writes interesting note that some our best tools for cost control available industry today were derived from government projects gantt charts and most the modern scheduling software comes from dod projects and their contractors the construction industry course how many government projects after using pert gant process flow diagrams level software projects actually come schedule and under cost know the gao determined that all nasa projects miss their budgets due failing adequately measure engineering developement costs allin favor government thought bell labs was one the best research don think the government should pour money into any one sector but should engage projects which naturally push the state the art things like high tech construction projects apollo was worth for the doing running hte national labs the ssc grossly overweight but reasonable project lower cost unfortunately support for solo investigators direly neglected maybe what they should throw out much the process and just tell new you get time grant you produce you can qualify for other grants you don you never get again this way young people get shot reserach and older stale scientists don dominate the process pat
sci.space	france spied the you mena the same way french intelliegence agents steal documents from corporate executives pat
sci.space	hst servicing mission scheduled for days article zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes article apr stsci edu hathaway stsci edu writes also implied other posters why you need boost the orbit this mission anyway you don need but desirable hst like all satellites low earth orbit gradually losing altitude due air drag was deployed the highest orbit the shuttle could reach for that reason needs occasional reboosting will eventually reenter has propulsion system its own has any thought been given how they are going boost the hst yet give push can see the push start cartoons now kenneth please reply ken blue njit edu for now all this might elaborate simulation running little device sitting someone table picard tng
sci.space	report redesign team article cohen mdc com cohen ssdgwy mdc com andy cohen writes the following what they feed most has been posted already but there are number items not seen here yet the design teams then presented the three options under study option modular buildup pete priest presented the option priest don think this will work still the same space integration problems small modules especially the bus modules the mol would bigger also budget problems may end stalling developemnt small undersized station wont have the science community support option freedom derived mike griffin presented the status option program effeciencies may cut costs but the basic problems with freedom remain space integration too many flights too build not enough science retrurn option singe launch core station chet vaughn presented option the single launch core station concept shuttle external tank and solid essentialy billion build mir think had nasa locked onto this design back with scarring support truss for real expandability looking flying space station this looks the most realistic imho but dont know there enough will power toss the cdr existing hardware and then take power cut and this way the core launch station has lot positive ideas you could stick more hatches for experimental concept modules like the derived workshops inflatable modules pat oct cancellation just opinion sad but true epitaph killed mis management pat
sci.space	space manuevering tug was hst servicing mission article dvgh aph news cso uiuc edu jbh uxa cso uiuc edu josh hopkins writes prb access digex net pat writes wrote prb access digex net pat writes data shows that the oms engines hold propellant that substantial fraction going used for the first oms burn the reentry burn and the reserve pat tell how much fuel the altitude change going take and how much the edo pallet bus and extra parts are going mass you can make the numbers work out then interested after you show that can done then tell how much the edo pallet bus and extra equipment going cost don know does anyone nasa land know how much fuel budgeted for the altitude change henry any figures the mass full for the edo pallet plus dry weight how about for the dry mass bus was being classified checked last also need current orbital parameters hst projected orbital parameters after boost discovery dry weight hst dry weight somehow think they could train new eva months first while astronauts certainly have done evas with minimal planning that was because they had they don like that general rule how long they need train year years somehow think moths should adequate second remember why they had improvise during intelsat they were trying attach motor piece hardware that wasn designed that trying shortcut the training only going make repeat more likely also because they significantly lacked orbit eva experience the hst designed for orbit servicing should lot easier third they don have eight months they have however much time left after someone comes with plan shows can work and gets approved you may think have pessimistic attitude think realistic not saying that the engineering task impossible few engineering tasks are what saying that this neither cost effective nor feasible under nasa management there comes time every project kill the management they can neccessary schedule the hst mission december not drop dead date unlike say the ldef retrieval mission all they have soup just what does that mean suspect the bus may not have enough basic thrust for the hst boost mayu need bigger tanks bigger thrusters understanding the second hst servicing mission not contingency understanding the mission needs both new foc and work the electrical system plus another boost the smt can avoid second servicing mission that million saved pat that million minus the cost the new hardware minus the cost the extra struff you want bring along minus development and mangement costs minus extra operating costs tanstaafl somehow think the cost expendable smt will less then million and the extra stuff real cheap nasa has lots suits mmu and the edo pallets are usable one double magnum champagne now there couple hundred bucks pat not only this messy and less reliable than device that made perform this task also ignores the point there desire have astronauts available that the door fails open something can done about unless you can provide very reliable way reopening the door you haven solved the problem that door has cycled times already once after massive loading somehow think they can work reliability methods ensure the door works also please tell how some sort sublimated material like would manage contaminate the mirror anything that goes vapor state shouldn adhere the mirror somehow the door problem can worked maybe they can put one time spring what they now the door hangs that door part intrument safing mechanism hangs tomorrow months until someone gets there witha crowbar fix pat
sci.space	combo propulsion system how difficult would solar sail mission say mercury not much has been there and there delta eat off could solar sail handle say adiscovery bus and drop into mercury orbit good enough for rockets put into some form polar orbit pat
sci.space	electrical spacecraft via magnetic field earth article bur zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes dragless satellite does not magically have drag burns fuel constantly fight drag maintaining the exact orbit would have there was drag this why there are quotes around dragless didn exactly follow the dragless satellitte thread what the point are they used for laser geodesy missions triad seemed some sort navy navigation bird but why dragless why not just update orbital parameters pat
sci.space	government and science and technolgy investment article apr aio jsc nasa gov kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov writes people who criticize big government and its projects rarely seem have consistent view the role government science and technology basically the government has gotten into the role supporting research which private industry finds too expensive too long term historically this role for the gov was forced upon because socialism other countries order for industries compete with government subsidized foreign competitors the gov has taken the role subisizing big ticket long lead this definitely had nothing with the entry the government into the support science some relevant technology there was little involvement federal funds except through support state universities state funds for scientific research before wwii the research position had been growing steadily and the funding was mainly from university and private foundation funds there were not that many research universities but they all provided their researchers with low teaching loads laboratories assistants and equipment and funds for travel scientific meetings not that much but was provided and university wishing get scholar had consider research funding well salary during wwii the military and the defense departments found that pure scientists could quite well with their problems even though they were not exactly the areas the scientists expertise this probably because the research mind approach which not try find solution but understand the problem and see solution emerges this works stages and research scientists were used discussion about their problems the job got done the military realized the importance maintaining scientists for the future and started funding pure research after wwii but congress was unwilling have military funds diverted into this investment into the future supply scientists and set other organizations such nsf the job also set elaborate procedure supposedly keep politics out also the government did job private foundations making more difficult for them act support research the worst part the federal involvement that those areas which the government supports research the university will not provide funding and fact expects its scholars bring net government money suppose has been the case have project which could use the assistance graduate student for few months what you think happens ask for one the answer will get get the money from nsf now the money the university level few thousand but the nsf level comes about thousand and likely keep faculty member from getting supported the government effect deciding which projects get supported and how much also the government decided that the wealth should spread instead having moderate number universities which were primarily research institutions the idea that more schools should get into the act came into being and instead evaluating scholars they had evaluating reseach proposals researcher can tell you that any research proposal has mainly wishful thinking now happens the investigator conceals already done work release the results the research what proposing today may solve before the funding granted may find impossible may find that too difficult addition tomorrow may get unexpected research results possibly may bet bright idea which solves yesterday too difficult problem whole new approach something had not considered can develop this the nature the beast and except for really vague statements something can predicted not major research but development routine activity not requiring more than minimal attention good researcher believe that this time less quality research being done than would have happened the government had never gotten into and the government trying divert researchers from thinkers plodders herman rubin dept statistics purdue univ west lafayette phone hrubin snap stat purdue edu internet bitnet purdue pur snap stat hrubin uucp
sci.space	hst servicing mission article schumach convex convex com schumach convex com richard schumacher writes access digex net prb access digex net pat writes how different would the contamination threat small manuevering tug from that the shuttle and oms engines the aperture door will shut during reboost using the shuttle means that there will someone nearby pry the door open again should stick well during the original deployment mission the hst aperture door was not opened until after the shuttle had landed presume that during boost mission hst would berthed the orbiter with the orbiter bay doors shut but still there would lots contamination worries understand that the eva suits are one the hardest things keep clean but still don know where the idea coming from that hst needs boost have many problems but our orbit the least them there certainly plan change the orbit the first servicing mission december ben
sci.space	project help hello new this news group but need some info currently doing project for class the internet looking for good sources information space and astronomy more notably our own solar system anyone knows any good sites where can get information about this kinda stuff please mail stk vax stockton edu thanx steve newsreader doesn have sig yet sorry please address repondes stk vax stockton edu adonchey faatcrl faa gov
sci.space	hst servicing mission scheduled for days article hlinn gap caltech edu palmer cco caltech edu david palmer writes you may want put hubble back the payload bay for reboost and you don want clip off the panels each time the artist renderings that seen the hst reboost still have the arrays fully extended with cradle holding hst degree angle the shuttle think the rendering was conceived before the array replacemnet was approved not sure the current reboost will occur with the arrays deployed not however doesn appear that array retraction was necessary for reboost for the gamma ray observatory one the design requirements was that there stored energy mecahnisms springs explosive squibs gas shocks etc used for deployment this was partially that everything could reeled back put back the payload bay and partially for safety considerations heard that the wings cruise missile would cut you half you were standing their swath when they opened thanks for the input gro design constraints that would explain the similar design uars back when the shuttle would going every other day with cost orbit per pound everybody designed things for easy servicing heck the mms project used design missions with servicing mind the xte spacecraft was originally designed orbit replacement for the instrument module euve that way you get two instruments for the price one spacecraft bus the explorer platform second orbit replacement was also considered with the fuse telescope david palmer palmer alumni caltech edu palmer tgrs gsfc nasa gov david gsfc
sci.space	drag free satellites sat may gmt henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer said dragless satellite does not magically have drag burns fuel constantly fight drag maintaining the exact orbit would have there was drag well almost turns out that clever orbital mechanics can engineer things that resonant interactions with the higher order harmonics the earth gravitational field can pump energy into satellite and keep from experiencing drag effects for periods months years favorite example this the soviet russian heavy elint satellites the cosmos class which are resonance particular has undergone two periods prolonged gain altitude the current one having started june the mean altitude the satellite now high has ever been since launch march looking the elements for also shows the limitations norad software but that another story this probably has little relevance space stations since the degree orbits the satellites are which unacceptably far into the inner van allen belt for manned platforms but kind interesting from the point view the physics the situation orbital elements for these satellites are available request allen thomson saic mclean there opinion here mine not saic
sci.space	drag free satellites article cpva saic com thomsonal cpva saic com writes sat may gmt henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer said dragless satellite does not magically have drag burns fuel constantly fight drag maintaining the exact orbit would have there was drag well almost turns out that clever orbital mechanics can engineer things that resonant interactions with the higher order harmonics the earth gravitational field can pump energy into satellite and keep from experiencing drag effects for periods months years harmonic the earth gravitational field what harmonic the earth gravitational field favorite example this the soviet russian heavy elint satellites the cosmos class which are resonance resonance with what not like there any wavelength frequency the earth gravitational field now there might some interesting interactions with the moon tidal effect that what you talking about this probably has little relevance space stations since the degree orbits the satellites are which unacceptably far into the inner van allen belt for manned platforms but kind interesting from the point view the physics the situation what are the physics the situation the only way can see gravitational effects being useful adding energy object orbiting earth some sort interaction with the moon isaac kuo isaackuo math berkeley edu twinkle twinkle little sig keep less than lines big
sci.space	moon image weather sat image afraid was not able find the gifs the list updated weekly perhaps just missing something melissa sherrin perky acs edu
sci.space	vandalizing the sky rbunge access digex net robert bunge writes that fine idea but only works the lighting power company even bothers supply good light fixtures for instance power company virginia recently asked state commission for permission sell more lights various type yet all the different fixture that they sold and wanted sell why they have ask state commision unless the state buying such process will only increace the overhead the power company selling different types light and will decreace the likleihood that they will and any efficient lights they might have been planning the future down the drain were bad designs one that wasted the light thus you couldn even buy good light from them most places get good light you have either order special high cost call store arizona you could order special enough people did would low cost last checked you could use ups buy stuff arizona before going there finally sure your state has things like small factories and machine shops you could into business making lights that are cheaper use thanks their higher efficiency and the fact that they aren wasting energy broadcasting space and therefore better than the old style some point society starts make rules cars have pass safety tests five year plans have enacted the planning for the economy will fall apart companies have meet pollution standards etc the clean air act really cleaned the air there are two ways achieve this educate the public that they demand good lighting force code down the lighting companies backs history seems suggest that the latter more likely work experience seems suggest that you trying too hard educate them with the same methods used american schools make any subject whatsoever relevant and boring proto ugric instead selling them the idea agreed won respond again important for all you spacers out there realize that some people will object various wild ideas that have been presented just like congress would best consult the astronomers lovers the night sky before you try some stunt boost public knowledge about space well wake space becoming field human endeavor instead just something can look from long long way away there are practical space projects that could conceivably although probably not cause lots light pollution and have been argued against those grounds even though they might open such possibilities that people could vacation mars they wanted really dark skies bob bunge rbunge access digex com phil fraering seems like every day find out all sorts stuff pgf srl cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man
sci.space	boeing tsto was words from chairman boeing article schumach convex convex com schumach convex com richard schumacher writes description boeing study two staged spaceplane using supersonic ramjets deleted other words boeing not seriously thinking about reliable less expensive access orbit they just like fool around with exotic airplanes means that boeing has something called foresight and vision boeing became the success today working what you call exotic airplanes
sci.space	will nasa mars observer image the face mars all consipiracy theories aside they are watching though will nasa try image the cydonia region mars where the face they can image with the high resolution camera would settle the face question once and for all mean with camera that will have pixel resolution about feet know whether all this stuff real imagination come jpl and nasa folks try image and settle this thing gene jackatak raider net gene wright jackatak raider net
sci.space	over zealous shuttle critics khayash hsc usc edu ken hayashida writes rockwell international downey california conjunction with the other shuttle contractors delivered the world most important and most revolutionary space vehicle one cannot argue with the fact that flies lands and reusable watch flies lands gets rebuilt opinion these were the only appropriate specifications for this program that not what they told back the has been test program from the start logical follow the program and the later series lifting bodies isn logical follow logical follow would have been either russian snowfox type thingey for the lifting bodies something like mmi space van boeing tsto the airbreathing tsto the military allegedly using now that probably cost less develop than the shuttle does fly for year the engineering specs that the guys the trenches had were develop system which was man ratable could land reliably and could reflown these goals were quite visionary for the and would argue that they are challenging even today including for the program keep that attitude and couple centuries before get real access space unless another country without all that baggage comes along and kicks our ass the space race not recall flight week specification the final nasa specs for the space shuttle program you have such documents would find them most revealing and interesting far can tell the only people touting flight per week flight rate were people capitol hill selling books the general public nasa that doesn give the rest the program plausible deniability deceide that wasn worth the money spent which now probably lot more than apollo imho political statements the halls the congress are not admissable engineering specs because specs should determined nasa dod and contractors not congressmen senators presidents missions are defined political leaders but not the engineering specs yes but gets sold the basis the political statements you saying basically that met the engineering specs which questionable imho success never mind that you couldn get the funding the shuttle eats with those engineering specs thousand years the shuttle the only reusable space vehicle this automatically qualifies unparalleled engineering success you could argue about its political success but engineering wise clearly the most advanced machine ever flown argue that engineering and technical data for hypersonic flight valuable and itself shuttle should justified criticized the basis economics you can get hypersonic flight data with follow type vehicle for much less and economics and engineering are interchangable engineering the absense economics basically just physics and terms physics the shuttle looks like failure next the then henry wrote sorry support that can arrange for launchers all goes launchers that have some hope riding some day the moment that hoped for successors was disappointed this and other similar statements from those vocal support the program your support based hopes support for the shuttle program based record the shuttle program has bad record once had hopes for the shuttle program now know those hopes were false all have for and similar and dissimilar experimental vehicles are hopes but least know they aren false hopes yet did support the shuttle way back when didn nearly what was supposed time move something that might the job orbital delivery better all think that also important note that not object visionary originally posted like the idea and really hopeful that stunning success unfortunately ers are not willing return that support the proven shuttle program explain why you folks criticize shuttle when shuttle exactly what you guys need order learn how operate orbit don want learn how operate orbit launches shoves out the payload lands doesn waste payload hauling and down edo pallets and the like the only thing learned from shuttle how not build launcher finally that bit about the proven shuttle are you hoping you can tell lie enough times and get someone believe enjoyed your later postings regarding the comparisons between the shuttle and the soyuz project although may disagree with your method analysis you probably will disagree with mine think that the total impact the shuttle program must judged the scientific and technical merit not timelines and schedules you agree how much science and technology could have been done the money spent shuttle had been spent differently for now need stop thinking and shuttle mutually exclusive learn about economics and the current budget realities the united states please thanks for your time phil fraering number one good faith you convert pgf srl cacs usl edu you not tortured demons anon mahen missionary
sci.space	and publicity there any article may bmerh bnr rivan bnr writes its seems bit scarry that such project which for the first time years promisses some hope changing the current trend massively overpriced boosting capability lacks much publicity the people involved have been building hardware rather than writing press releases this not high manpower project they don have spare people sitting around understand there has also been some feeling the part some the project management that publicity was not good idea lot people have been working changing this view with some success svr resembles high speed collision henry spencer toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	government and science and technolgy investment should noted that the benefitted not only from german science and technology after but also from british science and technology from the discovery and manufacture penicillin jet engines swing wing aircraft the hovercraft etc etc all were shipped lock stick and barel across the atlantic still are suffering from this sort thing because some the more parochial aspects procurement policy meiko british parallel computer company for example has now moved most its facilities the since that was the only way could sell stuff over there dave clements oxford university astrophysics department clements vax umberto eco the real comte dlc astro saint germain
sci.space	aurora gif request has someone scanned artist rendering aurora the gif available somewhere please reply via email thanks craig craig keithley looks could kill they probably will apple computer inc games without frontiers war without tears keithley apple com peter gabriel third album
sci.space	life mars article may den mmc com seale possum den mmc com eric seale writes can speak for the russian probes but the last heard the probe planned have air bags seriously cushion the impact hopefully won bouncer should just hit and thud the jpl san gabriel aiaa session last week showed the russian lander encased single large airbag with ravelable stitches the russian design pretty firm and hardware due from international experimenters the proposed american lander has bunch airbags shaped like bunch grapes they were dropping the desert last month may have mini rover
sci.space	why like was shuttle defects bizarre ken your arguments are thoughtful but you are going against the big boys you tackling henry allen sherzer will doubtless chime the subject staggering operational costs too good luck son article beo hsc usc edu khayash hsc usc edu ken hayashida writes shuttle the only method the free world orbiting large life sciences and medical related packages ahem the russians are the free world now least would politically correct contend hopeful that whatever the follow eventually called will perform you state but right now must admit that more skeptical than ever will tough make succeed and turn into operational orbital vehicle doubtless will fail meet some the promised goals the reason people are fond that the only chance have now will have for long time come develop launch vehicle with radically lower costs there shuttle successor funded development nasp dwindling away and als nls spacelifter sure hell aren gonna knock any zeroes off that per pound cost part the blame for this must placed shuttle program that consumes many annual billions the free world available space cash you will doubt hear from many correspondents the days come attempt break out the vicious cycle keeping development costs low and flying incremental plane hardware been mind incredibly successful already they built complex prototype under days for under megabucks would have been extremely skeptical that this could accomplished america never mind flying the thing getting successor funded building the sure you know well that launch costs are the basic problem for any expansion astronautics don see realistic prospect for beating down those costs for multi ton payloads anywhere else the flops business usual space the nineties and the double oughts will look just like the seventies and eighties prospect too depressing bear pegasus represents another assault the problem from different direction doesn lower cost per pound but offers orbital launch for under ten megabucks creating its own market for small payloads read the magazines and attended the last two iafs there are plenty engineers with paper ideas for cheaper launch systems some them good better than ssto there sign today world that any these designs will allowed anywhere near assembly line you could change view you could prove the following deleting some things not going prove tonight that the shuttle need not hiatus allow development man ratable successor strawman anybody seriously proposing this references please the must developed the real world funding climate which includes nasa ferociously committed continuing shuttle operations well the bird the hand argument your common sense tells you flies all flies alongside the shuttle not instead also course and its operational descendants will useful for wide variety jobs even they are not man rated most importantly that the will open leo more scientific and technical payloads successor can fly payload for even rather than the now costs more people will able afford more payloads for the same money you can fly several satellites instead one big outfits can fly multi satellite series little outfits will able fly spacecraft their own instead begging ride this just supply and demand you should able convince yourself that point will true assuming makes big difference costs you have some reason think not zap bill higgins fermi national accelerator laboratory bitnet higgins fnal bitnet internet higgins fnal fnal gov span hepnet higgins
sci.space	urgent email nasa budget what nasa annual budget this year will few years back wpuld nice too but need this item fast emails off the top your head very much appreciated faqs vanish here tony ryan astronomy space new international magazine available from astronomy ireland box dublin ireland issues one year sub pounds surface add airmail access visa mastercard accepted give number expiration date name address world largest astro soc per capita unless you know better another notch end april tel ireland eire cost per min
sci.space	space camp replying someone who asked for information space camp have brochure that has all different schedules what age what level and what program you want know the schedule most the missions are days long the address for huntsville alabama space science exhibit commission space and rocket center one tranquility base huntsville jennifer why are here what does mean
sci.space	life mars here potentially dumb question what prevents the martian landers themselves from polluting the martian environment with earth based critters the long trip cold radiation bathed space enough completely sterilize the landers could imagine that few teeny microbes could manage get all the way there unharmed and then possibly thrive given the right circumstances gord wait smos systems vancouver design centre uunet jericho gord gord jericho uunet net even some days
sci.space	math was govt technolgy investment greg mccolm suggested that math good example the inertia silver age current science math really science what new has math told recently please dont flame ive taken math since grade completed calc early and the hell out there really new stuff going not flaming but honestly durious nope just living off the inheritance from our forefathers reading dusty old books and exchanging baroque incantations among small circle devotees
sci.space	need help finding address could someone please help trying find the address the tdrs receiving station white sands missile range interested possible employment and would like write for information thanks
sci.space	mcelwaine faq sbooth lonestar utsa edu simon booth writes article news cso uiuc edu jbh uxa cso uiuc edu josh hopkins writes not sure which amazes more the fact that someone would all this trouble write about mcelwaine the fact that someone would post something which repeatedly says shouldn posted all moot anyway had net access privileges revoked last week josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu find way make one attributed hannibal mcelwaine got his access revoked finally and they say couldn done can rid the net mcelwaine then anything possible simon don worry sure back
sci.space	shuttle defects bizarre article beo hsc usc edu khayash hsc usc edu ken hayashida writes well spenz what can say you attacked beloved vehicle may offer constructive criticism perhaps you should decide you love vehicles the use they are put myself think the beautiful aircraft but rest assured wouldn even think flying combat today most want access space and judge vehicles how they perform see zero defects operation many area life not this degree calling shuttle flight characteristics bizarre the same post touting interesting why will also have similar zero defects issues wrong your wrong the approach very tollerent failure also has the advantage far greater reliability its reusable nature shuttle isn reusable salvagable thinking how will deploy chute reverse orientation supersonic speeds the flip over happens very low speed not supersonic the shows the flip over works will work unless the laws physics change how much redundant that the real question the final will have fully intact abort throughout the entire flight envelop upon entry for example can loose about available thrust and still land safely everything life has zero defects issues times agree everything can suffer from catastrophic failure but that not the same thing shuttle simply isn fault tolerent design ssto doctor can not error diagnosis and treatment recommendations you don put your patients conditions where there way out you wouldn for example give patient drug and not monitor them for harmful side effects would you while program makes good sense less optimistic about you and apparently others are you are very much the minority the series fails make orbit will still very worthwhile effort will show exactly what need build ssto but will still have failures the nature aerospace again refering the will provide fully intact abort theroughout the flight envelop shuttle doesn fault tollerent shuttle isn successors are not slated passenger carrying not true build passenger pallet fairly easy thing and will carry passengers the impression had when visited macdac huntington beach open house was that the payload space was limited and the man ratable version was decades away would suggest you talk the crew themselves their original schedule had operational flying shuttle the only method the free world orbiting large life sciences and medical related packages for now our only ticket into space and has support your ignoring the dammage does mannes space has reputation for being unreliable and hugely expensive shuttle supporters only make easy for opponents manned space kill you could change view you could prove the following the only way prove those things build allen lady astor sir you were husband would poison your coffee churchill madam you were wife would drink days first flight dcx
sci.space	gps launch next gps launch scheduled for june origin astronomy club
sci.space	and publicity there any article may bmerh bnr rivan bnr writes its seems bit scarry that such project which for the first time years promisses some hope changing the current trend massively overpriced boosting capability lacks much publicity that may change next month least hope will couple hundred journalists have requested press passes for the test flights sustaining that publicity however will problem allen lady astor sir you were husband would poison your coffee churchill madam you were wife would drink days first flight dcx
sci.space	soyuz and shuttle comparisons article may uucp gary uucp gary coffman writes rough guess would say that years shuttle has delivered leo about much saturn did years have careful define what payload and what propulsion and spacecraft structure often shuttle lifts satellites with upper stages yet still consider payload ten saturn flights over about years delivered leo roughly the same shuttle flights over years course saturn lifted more than shuttle but cost orbit same year dollars was higher they where pretty much the same terms cost pound resurected saturn would cost only per pound development costs are ignored which five times cheaper than shuttle allen lady astor sir you were husband would poison your coffee churchill madam you were wife would drink days first flight dcx
sci.space	who henry spencer anyway cam hawk adied the master writes etoyoc leland stanford edu aaron thode writes having tracked sci space for quite while have some questions about mysterious figure called henry spencer there anything going the space community seems know the questions are somewhat tounge cheek sci space hobby job for you you ever eat sleep does toronto zoology department conduct space research you just use account there just curious aaron well henry spencer also responsible for parts cnews and other internet related things quite guy onya henry this question comes frequently enough that there should faq about thierry lach curlie thierry sycom org include std disclaimer sufficiently superior technology indistingushable from magic
sci.space	life mars article fpoinnqo exodus eng sun com jmck norge eng sun com john mckernan writes some new information has been discovered recently microscopic fossils have been found very old rocks the theory that this life old that must have been destroyed during the periodic intense meteorite bombardments that were feature the early solar system under this theory life originated earth multiple times between multiple meteorite bombardments and therefore the conditions for the creation life cannot that unlikely this was all badly reported the news there evidence that signs life found old rock predate putative planet sterilizing events rather the argument was that life arose shortly the last sterilizing event then must easily formed the inference was that life originated before and was destroyed but there was evidence that however even this argument flawed could well that origin life requires specific conditions say certain composition the atmosphere that not last for long perhaps life formed early only because would have had other chance not because was likely that life would originate under those conditions paul dietz dietz rochester edu
sci.space	looking for planet maps jbh uxa cso uiuc edu josh hopkins writes tel dunix drake edu tim spock larson writes where can get topographical maps mars venus other terrestrial bodies still use the old national geographic maps from the apollo and viking eras the other people ask would the geological survey they have maps just about everything unfortunately not have their address there office the middle left coast middlefield road menlo park josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu find way make one attributed hannibal dick wilmot editor independent raid report
sci.space	near miss asteroids chance you answered request for neo asteroids the last two days please send them directly mistake deleted instead read all the space request messages thanks and sorry harry osoff science technology editor access news network jukebox mcimail com
sci.space	soyuz and shuttle comparisons article ofa fidonet org david anderman ofa fidonet org writes the most revealing comparison between shuttle and soyuz cost all other comparisons are apples and oranges maximus like this statement though for own reasons cost comparisons depend lot whether the two options are similar and then becomes very revealing consider what their differences are can soyuz launch the long exposure facility course not will the shuttle take television relay leo year end almost certainly not but the russians are pretty good about making space accessible tight schedule comparing and points that there are two active space launcher and work platform resources with similarities and differences where they are direct competition may get see some market economics come into play tombaker employer opinions are not own self employed
sci.space	another irritation relieved doctor who vindicated article schumach convex convex com schumach convex com richard schumacher writes this reverse the polarity crap always bugged the hell out too until found actual live real life example working quote from aviation week and space technology for july page colonel charles stirling speaking the problem fuel bubble formation titan aerojet engines said engineers nasa jet propulsion laboratory had run into the same problem and suggested that the air force look the effect aerozene decomposition the fix now flown three times without incident was reverse the inlet and outlet portions the hot gas cooler once again life imitates art how about the discussion the sts tether experiment ran forward would suck energy from the earth magnetic field while trivially slowing the shuttle could also have run backward they ran electricity through the tether the other way would have trivially propelled the shuttle faster but even better example comes mind there this electronics guy someone like craig anderton don lancaster ten years ago wrote about invention his could take light detector run current through about hundred times its rating and would glow got legal rights this design combination fiber optic emitter receiver this turned out the basic unit att think plan bring brazil communications system into the century the article was mostly about his legal wranglings with the company that eventually got him well compensated for his invention tombaker yes that real name employer opinion are not own self employed
sci.space	who henry spencer anyway someone named hansk asked about pictures well there archive portraits xfaces format ftp net henry spencer picture there somewhere along with several thousand others don remember the path though should easy find remember though seems use both internet and uucp addresses phil fraering number one good faith you convert pgf srl cacs usl edu you not tortured demons anon mahen missionary
sci.space	vandenberg launches article may mri com paulc mri com paul carroll writes know about the phone numbers etc get kennedy canaveral launch information but there any equivalent way finding out about launches vandenberg bear mind that lot the vandenberg launch traffic military and least semi secret they aren interested publicizing beforehand svr resembles high speed collision henry spencer toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	who henry spencer anyway article may aie hansk aie hans kinwel writes god you dare posting posed these very questions spencer some time ago email unfortunately never received any response apologies your mail probably the pile that arrived just before got sick about month ago reply will appear eventually now what really would like see interview with spencer magazine photograph even better program want both far there have been none unless you count interview the amateur computerist about the history netnews which may disqualified because tac budget doesn run reproducing photos svr resembles high speed collision henry spencer toronto zoology between svr and sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
sci.space	life earth elsewhere article may julian uwo jdnicoll prism ccs uwo james davis nicoll writes article kcx cmu edu msu edu tom writes what evidence there that there trend towards greater species diversity over time what see going right now major extinction event and isn clear that the diversity years ago was necessarily greater than million years ago well there are several bursts species diversity can think the cambrian and ordovician explosions resulted vast increase animal diversity likewise after the one two punch the permian and triassic extinctions the number marine animals rose steadily all time high just prior the spread humans biggest exception being the bye bye dinos extinction about families also plants arose from green algae and colonized the land succesive sweeps mosses colonized very wet environments first ferns who had evolved vascular tissues took over more territory when they evolved these were eventually mostly replaced gymnosperms pines and the like and then mostly displaced angiosperms flowering plants now the dominant plant group the planet fungi also radiated greatly with the invasion the land around the carboniferous about families around the triassic maybe families starting the cretaceous rising about families currently unclear least what the max equilibrium number species the earth can hold and has ever hit this the past could warning speculation alert that diversity has never reached peak because mass extinctions happen often enough keep the total number down this would depend great deal how fragmented specific ecosystems were see cowen book history life for not too technical run down well like the title sez the history life see wilson diversity life for view centered more current ecology this imho the best popular biology book what the hell say all time james nicoll follow ups chris colby email colby bio edu boy said you are descended from long line determined resourceful microscopic tadpoles champions every one kurt vonnegut from galapagos
sci.space	interesting cost anecdote that assuming could get built them course would probably sport cruise missile racks sidewinder missile tubes bomb points extra drop tanks full ecm suite terrain following radar and stealth materials might not fly but technology demonstrator does not require actual flight pat
sci.space	why like was shuttle defects bizarre article zyue cgc zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes however agree with richard that you planning short missions may not worth the trouble providing anything more than urine disposal rig and few baggies don know about but which are regularly used for medium haul personnel transport the army only have funnel and garden hose the aft the female personnel hate long trips the box cars pat
sci.space	who henry spencer anyway sat may gmt hansk aie hans kinwel said hans somebody replied whether the space shuttle connected hans usenet course the main flow information would hans unless henry spencer would aboard which case the main hans flow information would down gene miya says that henry will never aloft the shuttle the payload bay isn big enough for his chocolate chip cookies when henry was here dryden was looking pretty covetously the and the even though they don have much cookie space guess figured that could manage for short flight mary shafer dod kotfr nasa dryden flight research facility edwards shafer rigel dfrf nasa gov course don speak for nasa mig your six better than mig all unknown fighter pilot
sci.space	shuttle and pennicillin pennicillin have everything correct was highly valuable myco toxin discovered during proved have amazing bacterio cidal effect without human toxicity immediate administration showed immediate dramatic results solving problems that previously were fatal although initially enormously expensive culture within years the price had fallen least two orders magnitude and within years was not much more expensive then aspirin penicillin was also usable for amazingly wide class infections centoxin drug that not passing fda approval promised amazing results for toxic shock rapidly fatal disease consumed enormous amounts funding testing and developement however works less then times administration and costs per administration with promise any reduction manufacturing cost the drug thus costs per useful case and implicated slight increase mortality for some patients would not dare compare the shuttle pennicillin but centoxin pat
sci.space	publicity this have the make unscheduled landing teh yard line during the halftime show this years superbowl abc will have more reporters there for that then any news event pat
sci.space	publicity even better make pete conrad martian suit and have him get and throw football the refs
sci.space	white sands interesting note the past few days correspondance that some believe that poor old new mexico not capable hosting commercial space launch business for many reasons can and here the front lines see reason why should not the spaceport political publicity referred the other day had its intended effect the state new mexico did establish the start the necessary government infrastructure back commercial space port the commanding general wsmr full support dual use for the facilities the wsmr location also has some strategic advantages the form necessary infrastructure and controlled air space support the project just because the folks involved have not done the traditional aerospace equivalent vapor ware inviting folks out kick non existent tires but have been merely doing their job prepare for launch don think that nothing has happened from interactions with the macdac folks get the impression that they want set firm believable launch date based vehicle readiness and not just some fiction plug space calendar believe that all will happen this summer and don worry the locals here are planning let everyone know when does occur stephen horan shoran nmsu edu
sci.space	space marketing boycott the new york times sunday may the week review section there was report group called space marketing atlanta georgia who planning put one mile wide reflective earth orbiting satelite which will appear large and bright the moon and carry some sort advertising there was editorial about this the times the following tuesday are others upset about this feel that global boycott anyone involved with such project would good idea perhaps could made illegal various countries around the world others agree david relevant messages found the net from webb tsavo hks com peter webb newsgroups sci space subject stopping the sky vandals date may gmt organization hks inc distribution world you don want see space marketing put orbiting billboards write them call them and tell them you might also write your congresspeople space marketing can reached attn mike lawson public relations dept space marketing atmbree suite rosewell peter webb webb hks com hibbitt karlsson sorensen inc voice main pawtucket fax alternatively you could try find out who their clients will and tell them how you feel newsgroups sci astro sci space sci misc sci environment talk environment from klaes verga enet dec com larry klaes subject light pollution space ads information keywords light pollution advertisements organization digital equipment corporation date thu may gmt dave crawford crawford noao edu executive director the international dark sky association ida sent information where you can write regards the proposed billboards the sky and asked post karen brown center for the study commercialism connecticut avenue suite washington telephone fax please note that have involvement whatsoever with the csc larry klaes klaes verga enet dec com decwrl verga enet dec com klaes klaes verga dec decwrl enet dec com klaes verga enet dec com uunet net all the universe nothing wells ejasa editor astronomical society the atlantic from kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov newsgroups sci space subject vandalizing the sky date may gmt distribution sci organization nasa jsc space shuttle program office newsreader tin version posted from algol jsc nasa gov baube flb flb optiplan wrote that roughly akin saying let let anaconda strip mine the grand canyon that strip mining can boldly where strip mining technology has gone before because after all mining means profits and profits mean technological advance ment and technogical advancement means prosperity and pros perity means happiness and hell with the grand canyon space advertisement low earth orbit very short term the order few years before the orbit decays higher orbits last longer advertisers will certainly aware the environmental aspects their advertising fred argument roughly akin saying that bad cut down trees shouldn advertise newspapers think that through fred picture this our space billboard large inflatable structure filled with bio degradable foam instead gas scoops space debris orbits thus cleaning the space environment and bringing you the pause that refreshes the same time because the large drag coefficient will orbit safely burning within year embedded the foam structure small entry vehicle which does not burn during entry contains the electronics and propulsion system which may refurbished and used well space science experiments proposed and built high school students advertiser sponsored science fairs advertisers buy time the billboard whose surface made tiny mirrors controlled the avionics package the avionics can reconfigure the mirrors reflect different messages different parts the globe clever programming allows different languages every country during orbital night the mirrors turn perpendicular the surface and small lights are revealed the lights spell out messages for all see ken jenks nasa jsc space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov here men from the planet earth first set foot upon the moon july came peace for all mankind
sci.space	space marketing would wonderfull fox graphics nyu edu david fox writes the new york times sunday may the week review section there was report group called space marketing atlanta georgia who planning put one mile wide reflective earth orbiting satelite which will appear large and bright the moon and carry some sort advertising there was editorial about this the times the following tuesday realy like this idea would wonderfull see such big bright satelite the night sky will even promise try buy whatever product advertises help this project please write space marketing and encourage this project sadly dosent have enough money invest congresspeople space marketing can reached attn mike lawson public relations dept space marketing atmbree suite rosewell space advertisement low earth orbit very short term the order few years before the orbit decays higher orbits last longer advertisers will certainly aware the environmental aspects their advertising fred argument roughly akin saying that bad cut down trees shouldn advertise newspapers think that through fred picture this our space billboard large inflatable structure filled with bio degradable foam instead gas scoops space debris orbits thus cleaning the space environment and bringing you the pause that refreshes the same time because the large drag coefficient will orbit safely burning within year embedded the foam structure small entry vehicle which does not burn during entry contains the electronics and propulsion system which may refurbished and used well space science experiments proposed and built high school students advertiser sponsored science fairs advertisers buy time the billboard whose surface made tiny mirrors controlled the avionics package the avionics can reconfigure the mirrors reflect different messages different parts the globe clever programming allows different languages every country during orbital night the mirrors turn perpendicular the surface and small lights are revealed the lights spell out messages for all see ken jenks nasa jsc space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov here men from the planet earth first set foot upon the moon july came peace for all mankind magnus redin lysator academic computer society redin lysator liu mail magnus redin rydsv gen link ping sweden phone sweden answering machine and
sci.space	space marketing would wonderfull some sense think that the folks who think the idea wonderful and the folks who want boycott anyone who has anything with this project are both right that think that space advertising interesting idea and someone wants try out more power them however company may discover that the cost launch not the only cost advertising and company who gauged that ill will would lose them more revenue than the advertising would gain might decide bow out the project got incensed when read that carl sagan called this idea abomination don think that word means what thinks does children starving the richest country the world abomination agency worst just poor taste tom courtney
sci.space	space marketing would wonderfull article world std com vis world std com tom courtney writes got incensed when read that carl sagan called this idea abomination don think that word means what thinks does children starving the richest country the world abomination agency worst just poor taste tom courtney don think that idea means what you think does having everyone earth subject some agency poor taste abomination abomination loathing odious degrading habit act object disgust oxford concise dictionary maybe you don mind having every part your life saturated with commercials but many loathe rather not have the beauty the night sky always marred giant billboard and bet the idea virtually sacrilegious astronomer like sagan reid cooper
sci.space	space marketing would wonderfull wcsbeau superior carleton opirg writes don think that idea means what you think does having everyone earth subject some agency poor taste abomination well already suffer from street hoardings you don watch you are free commercials there but you want from you cannot escape beer ads loathe rather not have the beauty the night sky always marred giant billboard and bet the idea virtually sacrilegious astronomer like sagan think the right time stop this proposal now this idea goes through the thin end the wedge soon companies will doing larger and more permanant billboards the sky wouldn want world few decades from now when the sky looks like las vegas that would really make sad coca cola company will want paint the moon red and white well not this moon then moon jupiter microscum will want name galaxy microscum galaxy where draw the line historically mankind not very good drawing fine lines normally extremely enthusiastic about all forms resource allocation for space research think the most important investment possible for mankind the long run but this not the way get the money ans ajay shah ajayshah rcf usc edu
sci.space	government and science and technolgy investment article pgf srl cacs usl edu pgf srl cacs usl edu phil fraering writes mccolm darwin math usf edu gregory mccolm writes article rice edu conor owlnet rice edu conor frederick prischmann writes article srfii suntan eng usf edu mccolm darwin math usf edu gregory mccolm writes huh please state your criteria for selecting the greatest philosopher title ever read any nietzsche greatest most likely remembered five hundred years hence must admit that that makes many personal favorites not that great make comment nietzche except remark that was immanuel kant interpret that cryptic remark you please some people have appended that remark that nietzche was kant with thankfully haven read enough either comment although everyone tells should read nietzche would have say that the greatest philosopher title would have plato since the whole enterprise philosophy was essentially defined him although got most his answers wrong did definitively identify what the important questions are think was descartes who said that all philosophy just footnote plato were choose which philosopher made the most important advances human knowledge over his lifetime that simple aristotle this much the case that many simply refer him the philosopher regarding nietzsche one the most entertaining although since his ideas were fragmented and since his life was cut short doubtful that his influence philosopher likely very extensive years from now they probably still reading him years though for modern philosophers would have say that kant was the most influential since had such strong influence almost everyone who came after him and unfortunately they maintained his errors and amplified them over time would say that the most influential american philosopher would have dewey but the question what philosopher will most highly regarded years may very well ayn rand who every important respect was american but was born russia but guess that remains seen brian
sci.space	life mars article tdbunews teradata com swf elsegundoca ncr com writes you fred hoyle rejects the big bang and proposes infinitely old universe really his model life always starts given planet seeding from outer space there has always been life somewhere didn fred hoyle abandon the steady state theory bruce watson wats scicom alphacdc com
sci.space	philosophy quest how boldly article sti kinnoq gap caltech edu palmer cco caltech edu david palmer writes gary uucp gary coffman writes lack skeleton means that muscles have actively resist gravity all times land rather than supplying only balancing forces that means that much more energy would required for the creature function the bones also supply leverage points for pushing and lateral movement that why you don find large active boneless creatures land hydraulics can make rigid tubes energy required just for support hydraulics also allow creature produce large forces with weak muscles using the principle hydraulic jack rather than lever this one those yes but things true that hydraulically pressurized tube can somewhat more rigid than unpressurized tube but even psi levels hydraulic hose will bend rather easily though straight compressive strength high and torsional resistance increase practically nil the other grasping member there doubt that hydraulic leverage exists nature tree roots are example given time they can shatter concrete osmotic pressure increases interesting note that land creatures are either two legged legged with tiny insects having legs but never legged though that would stable configuration can argued that legged creatures kangaroos are legged the specific number limbs creature has accident evolution hard make changes some structures the panda has thumb plus many fingers its ancestors five each hand but the thumb modified wristbone rather than modified finger and extra fingers are much more common than extra limbs especially fully functional ones kangaroos limbed don think you take the view that the tail limb then monkeys and kangaroos are limbed think the tail different kind structure grossly enlarged the case the kangaroo but primarily still instrument balance rather than locomotion don know much about panda thumbs ask opposable thermodynamic considerations surface volume relationships would seem dictate that active complex creatures stay size range similar what see about inch tall intelligent aliens seem unlikely those much larger than the elephant why can lemur brontosaurus intelligent yes know that the brontosaurus mythical beast produced putting the head another dinosaur apatosaurus but far space aliens are also mythical well won say flat out that they can intelligent but bring couple lines argument bear try show why don think likely first let say that when say intelligent mean complex behaviors response novel situations level with greater than human tool use and tool building assuming suitable manipulators are present the creature allow alter enviroment planned way will that certainly not universal complete definition intelligence but will suffice for putative technological alien now one knows exactly what makes brain capable thought but generally accepted that one the criteria certain level complexity this generally determined the number neuron cells and their interconnections creature the size lemur wouldn have enough neurons support complex thought this argument considerably less clear the case the dinosaur there room for large brain though indication that one ever developed one reason this may true neuronic speed the electrochemical messages that trigger neurons require time propagate this makes difficult for highly complex central brain coordinate the movements very large creatures there little selection pressure for such brains instead simpler distributed network evolves this doesn rule out intelligent dinosaurs but points that direction then there are the thermodynamic arguments tiny creature like the lemur needs eat frequently because internal heat rapidly lost due high surface volume ratio contend that creature that must spend most time and energy feeding won have the time develop and exercise intelligence that argument may somewhat weak the dinosaur problem the reverse must moderate heat production because high volume surface ratio makes tend retain waste heat assuming that certain temperature range optimal for chemical reactivity reasons for productive neuron function creatures would tend need maintain regulated temperature range near that humans they are carbon based that tends rule out cold blooded creatures potential homes intelligence some people contend that some the dinosaurs may have been warm blooded but for creature the size brontosaur activity levels would have restrained would prone generate internal steam explosion from the waste heat whales are similar size but they can reject heat the ocean much more efficient sink than air suspect that for intelligence manifest itself certain degree activity interacting with the environment necessary monkey curiousity doubt large dinosaur would capable that much activity gary gary coffman you make gatech mei gary destructive testing systems break uunet rsiatl gary shannon way guaranteed emory gary lawrenceville
sci.space	why like was shuttle defects bizarre article may mksol dseg com mccall mksol dseg com fred mccall writes hmmm not sure what required for ships probably not much since ship goes down doesn hurt too many people other than those the ship and those who invested plane spacecraft goes down can make quite nasty mess the ground should land inappropriate place considering the magnitude loss life both the moro castle and titanic disasters can believe you can blithe there fred besides lng tanker breaks close harbor you can kiss off quite lot population same thing for any chemical tankers know the coast guard makes mandatory safety equipment checks all watercraft they use this excuse make narcotics searches without warrants suspect that commercial craft need certificate least similiar scope air worthiness certificate from the dot pat
sci.space	excess shuttle criticism was shuttle defects bizarre article stephens ngis stephens geod emr dave stephenson writes had and went mention that aviation you are found with adjustable spanner your tool box you can fired adjustable spanner trying fit all nuts fits none them properly and damages all them the demanding environment the air the adjustable wrench rightly considered lethal instrument dave what recall from air craft maintence torqque and safety wires cotters were more important then some bolt face were nicked was bad shape you replaced with another aircraft grade bolt can see adjustable spanners eating profit but lives pat
sci.space	sdio kaput not mention how those those liberal presidents nixon ford reagan bush did nothing support true commercial space activities pat
sci.space	near miss asteroids trry the skywatch project arizona pat
sci.space	space marketing would wonderfull article fph cunews carleton wcsbeau superior carleton opirg writes don think that idea means what you think does having everyone earth subject some agency poor taste abomination abomination loathing odious degrading habit act object disgust oxford concise dictionary maybe you don mind having every part your life saturated with commercials but many loathe moot point step out your door anywhere except possibly your mailbox you will subject some agency poor taste rather not have the beauty the night sky always marred giant billboard and bet the idea virtually sacrilegious astronomer like sagan while sure sagan considers sacrilegious that wouldn because his doubtfull credibility astronomer modern ground based visible light astronomy what these proposed orbiting billboards would upset already dying field the opacity and distortions caused the atmosphere itself have driven most the field use radio far infrared space based telescopes any case bright point light passing through the field doesn ruin observations that were the case the thousands existing satellites would have already done satelliets might not seem bright the eyes but far astronomy concerned they are extremely bright frank crary boulder
sci.space	hst servicing mission scheduled for days article str access digex net prb access digex net pat writes article may stsci edu dempsey stsci edu writes this real world too you can science like this with out doing politics well unfortunately good keep the coming you know what makes rocket ships fly funding makes them fly bucks buck rogers you have proven you saw the right stuff however said above takes politics and keep the bucks coming politics bucks buck rogers think you are missing the point agency has gathered some data something and once tax dollars have been spent the data now property the people the government the government may charge recover some the cost they may charge maintain the data but they cannot claim the data proprietary unless classified national security data yes this may true the case the science data coming from the spacecraft and other stuff about the operations however there still stuff regarding regular operation that belongs the company and they have ever legal right keeping theirs but this does not mean that everything can should swept under the umbrella company proprietory data live down the road from nih they run studies all the time can into their library and photocoppy all the raw data from any study thev done just bring roll quarters you can the same here you just have wait year not saying you guys don have internal rules but they are not supported law safeguard internal company data are indeed supported law dempsey
sci.space	space marketing would wonderfull article pkc ovf almaak usc edu ajayshah almaak usc edu ajay shah writes this idea goes through the thin end the wedge soon companies will doing larger and more permanant billboards the sky wouldn want world few decades from now when the sky looks like las vegas that would really make sad think for moment about the technology required that the time they could make the earth sky look like las vegas the people could afford backpacking the moon round trip costs for the moon would about the same low earth advertising orbit very roughly the same cost smallish billboard therefore such ads were become common place that would have very low price the night sky lunar backpacking trip would still very pristine there always been problem having get away from civilization before you can really find natural scenery years ago this usually didn take trip over miles today most people would have miles more ever get the point where have billboards orbit that essentially means that place earth still wild while that may may not good thing the orbital billboards aren the problem they are just symptom growing densely populated civilization banning such ads will not save your view the night sky because the time such ads could become widespread you will probably have trouble finding place without street lights where you can see the stars coca cola company will want paint the moon red and white well not this moon then moon jupiter moon jupiter would rather pointless since you need telescope see them however love see them get all the publicity they could from underwritting the coca cola orbital mapping probe microscum will want name galaxy microscum galaxy they already can some extent the iau allows names derived from sponsors patrons scientific research microscum donates money university astronomy program one the galactic astronomers could easily get newly discovered galaxy named after them frank crary boulder
sci.space	who henry spencer anyway may aie hansk aie hans kinwel writes article may leland stanford edu etoyoc leland stanford edu aaron thode writes having tracked sci space for quite while have some questions about mysterious figure called henry spencer there anything going the space community seems know the questions are somewhat tounge cheek sci space hobby job for you you ever eat sleep does toronto zoology department conduct space research you just use account there just curious god you dare posting posed these very questions spencer some time ago email unfortunately never received any response well imho and just nobody net user henry spencer sci kibo alt and rec but could wrong did anybody mention the illuminati kitten conan the librarian kitten barbara ann trumpins alexia lis uiuc edu life soap opera isn yours summmmmmmmmmmertimmmmmmmmmme and the livin easy
sci.space	space marketing would wonderfull article may ucsu colorado edu fcrary ucsu colorado edu frank crary writes article pkc ovf almaak usc edu ajayshah almaak usc edu ajay shah writes this idea goes through the thin end the wedge soon companies will doing larger and more permanant billboards the sky wouldn want world few decades from now when the sky looks like las vegas that would really make sad think for moment about the technology required that the time they could make the earth sky look like las vegas the people could afford backpacking the moon round trip costs for the moon would about the same low earth advertising orbit very roughly the same cost smallish billboard therefore such ads were become common place that would have very low price this nonsense its like saying that the time commercials television become commonplace every citizen will have their own hour long nationally broadcast program there always been problem having get away from civilization before you can really find natural scenery years ago this usually didn take trip over miles today most people would have miles more ever get the point where have billboards orbit that essentially means that place earth still wild while that may may not good thing the orbital billboards aren the problem they are just symptom growing densely populated civilization banning such ads will not save your view the night sky because the time such ads could become widespread you will probably have trouble finding place without street lights where you can see the stars the rest your post strange mishmash its already really bad and doesn really matter gets worse you should try figure out what you are really arguing for kneejerk anti environ mentalism david passing sattelite does not have the same effect visible light astronomy object bright the full moon
sci.space	math was govt technolgy investment mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com mark wilson writes report called the science order but that probably pomposity however now somewhat experimental science with the exploration fractals strange attractors and artificial life whether important insights will gained from these experiments unknown but does tend change the shape what has mostly been viewed abstract deductive field how you experiments mathematics well have look new journal journal experimental mathematics has several fields medallists its editorial board you want knwo more try klaus peters boston david epstein warwick deep ideas are simple odd groups are even even simples are not
sci.space	space marketing would wonderfull others said coca cola company will want paint the moon red and white well not this moon then moon jupiter this reminds the old arthur clarke story about the coca cola stashed inside experiment host host from coast coast foz skybridge scl cwru edu one will talk host that close linux unless the host that isn close pob busy hung dead
sci.space	government and science and technolgy investment brian quake sylmar writes but the question what philosopher will most highly regarded years may very well ayn rand who every important respect was american but was born russia but guess that remains seen please take this out sci space ayn rand was not only born russia but educated there lot her philosophy reflects not only european education but reaction against certian events russia while she lived there heard that the extent there division modern philosophy between the continental and british american schools rand belongs the former terms methodology even though she was trying say things that would belong the latter school she was trapped the language kant and hegel even though she was trying say times much different things phil fraering number one good faith you convert pgf srl cacs usl edu you not tortured demons anon mahen missionary
sci.space	sts inclination from article may vax tcd apryan vax tcd primary payload spacehab eureca inclination degrees have seen elsewhere that inclination degrees which correct hmmm atlantis left eureca degree orbit retrieving going really fun they fly degrees torque that canadarm jonathan
sci.space	soyuz and shuttle comparisons are you guys talking about the soviet shuttle not soyuz called buran which means snow storm least that what they call russian gavin helf berkeley political science berkeley stanford program soviet studies ghelf violet berkeley edu
sci.space	math was govt technolgy investment article enf hjm ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com mark wilson writes may uucp gary uucp gary coffman writes however now somewhat experimental science with the exploration fractals strange attractors and artificial life whether important insights will gained from these experiments unknown but does tend change the shape what has mostly been viewed abstract deductive field how you experiments mathematics nowadays usually with computer theory predicted the numeric discoveries listed above one can yet write algorithm that will predict the precise behavior any these any precise level their evolution remains for experimenters gather data their behavior gary gary coffman you make gatech mei gary destructive testing systems break uunet rsiatl gary shannon way guaranteed emory gary lawrenceville
sci.space	space marketing boycott space proposed this undoubtedly the sickest thing come down the marketing pipe years and the best reason for resurrecting the star wars killer satellite system dan
sci.space	space marketing would wonderfull article world std com vis world std com tom courtney writes some sense think that the folks who think the idea wonderful and the got incensed when read that carl sagan called this idea abomination don think that word means what thinks does children starving the richest country the world abomination agency worst just poor taste not also abomination that somebody would spend money space advertising when those children are starving perhaps some redistribution wealth would help them dan
sci.space	space marketing would wonderfull can see now emblazened across the evening sky this space for rent
sci.space	space marketing would wonderfull fcrary ucsu colorado edu frank crary writes article fph cunews carleton wcsbeau superior carleton opirg writes don think that idea means what you think does having everyone earth subject some agency poor taste abomination abomination loathing odious degrading habit act object disgust oxford concise dictionary maybe you don mind having every part your life saturated with commercials but many loathe while sure sagan considers sacrilegious that wouldn because his doubtfull credibility astronomer modern ground based visible light astronomy what these proposed orbiting billboards would upset already dying field the opacity and distortions caused the atmosphere itself have driven most the field use radio far infrared space based telescopes any case bright point light passing through the field doesn ruin observations that were the case the thousands existing satellites would have already done satelliets might not seem bright the eyes but far astronomy concerned they are extremely bright frank crary boulder tell that the people who run the meter keck telescope the astronomers and engineers working the gemini twin meter telescope project took years build keck and now they are building keck according the december sky telescope this second meter eye will convert the facility into binocular telescope with double the light gathering power and the ability resolve the headlights car some kilometers away japan meter subaru telescope will soon join keck mauna kea all these telescopes will work the infrared yes but they are visible light telescopes and haven you heard anything about adaptive optics lot research was done with star wars funding and some now being shared with astronomers this shows great promise soon probably within few years even the largest telescopes will able resolve their theoretical limit despite the distortions the atmosphere say that visible light astronomy already dying field pure hokum use the logic that things are already bad doesn matter gets worse absurd maybe common sense and logic are the dying fields george krumins pufferfish observatory the universe had its origin gfk uxa cso uiuc edu two hockeysticks colliding home the hockeystick memorial telescope
sci.space	space marketing would wonderfull stange meena uregina writes phil your point well taken still sad idea worried the concern about though for number reasons that have nothing with space advertising which for number reasons probably doomed fail financial grounds and been reading and and writing this thread since way back when was only sci space for starters don think the piece light pollution apparatus would bright the full moon that seems bit propaganda the part opponents wishful thinking the part proponents second this charge ruining the night sky permanently has been levelled against other projects that either don increace light pollution significantly increace light pollution only over the target area you may may not recognize being solar power sattelites think was josh hopkins who actually did the math showing that sps weren that bright after all ending some two months frenzied opposition the part dark sky activists and various other types mainly projects like the orbiting mirror the cis tested recently while slightly more worrisome like point out that any significant scattering light outside the target area for one these mirrors would wasted far the project would concerned and something any project like that would work against anyway and given some the likely targets don think there going much outcry from the inhabitants there too much dark sky the northern cis during the winter and doubt you find many activists murmansk demanding the natural sky back anything probably inside stripped buck naked front the lamp making sure get enough vitamin for the day the mirror experiments aren something they doing for crass advertising they think that they can build one one those things people the affected areas will think they couldn have lived without before and doubt anyone going really able convince them stop phil fraering number one good faith you convert pgf srl cacs usl edu you not tortured demons anon mahen missionary
sci.space	space marketing would wonderfull dnash uxa cso uiuc edu david nash writes talking about orbiting here not some little point light that puts streak two photograph should have been clear that anything used for advertisement going bit larger than point source even this was not clear there previous post this topic that makes clear message fox may graphics nyu edu sender notes cmcl nyu edu notes person nntp posting host graphics nyu edu organization courant institute mathematical sciences date sun may gmt lines the new york times sunday may the week review section there was report group called space marketing atlanta georgia who planning put one mile wide reflective earth orbiting satelite which will appear large and bright the moon and carry some sort advertising from the description read prob only going bright jupiter anything else probably hype from the opponents wishful thinking from the sponsors could something bright the full moon that soon that cheap the cis would have done already phil fraering number one good faith you convert pgf srl cacs usl edu you not tortured demons anon mahen missionary
sci.space	space marketing boycott article ran ucdavis edu hamlet ucdavis edu dan herrin writes space proposed this undoubtedly the sickest thing come down the marketing pipe years and the best reason for resurrecting the star wars killer satellite system dan why don you activist guys cut misc invest out this thread they didn offer any shares for sale yet tony tony bellcore com
sci.space	space marketing would wonderfull article rgl ucdavis edu hamlet ucdavis edu dan herrin writes deleted not also abomination that somebody would spend money space advertising when those children are starving perhaps some redistribution wealth would help them dan not flame really but thats abominable viewpoint while were the subject abominations followed the redistiribution wealth and the way ist that what clinto and the democrats are trying everyone would starve short order not only impossoble organize fair distribution that depends every man altruism can you say black market under communisim anyone but the current methods resource production are entirely energy dependant there are not enough sources cheap capital aside from human capital allow stop looking space excellent source materials and realestate more directly perhaps you mioght consider the fact that billions are spent companies and their sponsors abc nbc cbs the superbowl the olympics and even monday night baseball games perhaps should boycott those games and company get finished and there market for those abominable space will probably much more cost effective for the companies and those starving children more people buy products the company hires more workers end result fewer children die starvation polar caps tfv lehigh edu student konsultant making the world safe for computing never before have owed little many folk one must not confuse john dunne famous quote man island with new york telephone all connected dad
sci.space	space marketing would wonderfull article tls news cso uiuc edu gfk uxa cso uiuc edu george krumins writes deleted say that visible light astronomy already dying field pure hokum use the logic that things are already bad doesn matter gets worse absurd maybe common sense and logic are the dying fields george krumins deleted those scientists can get around the atmosphere with fancy computer algorythims but have you looked the hubble results the defects the mirror are partially correctable with software see those jupiter pictures for results but the effects are completely reversable why there going shuttle mission fix the way see and please astromomers give swift net kick the butt out the ball park the astromers are making the best limited possiblities there only one hubble and the shuttle makes another the near future non thought perhaps those self same billboards could have small optical receptors limited kind mounted the reverse sides the mirror that what used and then the whole thing becomes giant array telescope polar caps tfv lehigh edu student konsultant making the world safe for computing never before have owed little many folk one must not confuse john dunne famous quote man island with new york telephone all connected dad
sci.space	space marketing would wonderfull because his doubtfull credibility astronomer modern ground based visible light astronomy what these proposed orbiting billboards would upset already dying field the ahh perhaps that why astronomers have just built meter ground based scopes and are studying designs for larger ones seriously though you never going get meter scope into orbit cheaply you can build one the ground and with adaptive optics and good site the difference quality narrowed quite bit anyway also scopes low orbit like hubble can only observe things continuously for minutes time which can serious limitation opacity and distortions caused the atmosphere itself have driven most the field use radio far infrared space based telescopes any case bright point light passing through the field doesn ruin observations that were the case the sure hell does the point light half degree extent and bright the moon have you ever noticed how much brighter the night sky moonlit night thousands existing satellites would have already done satelliets might not seem bright the eyes but far astronomy concerned they are extremely bright existing satellites are points light but advertising sign that appeared point would useless rather think these will appear larger than typical satellite also satellite tracks are ruining lots plates the current palomar sky survey frank crary boulder what deparment are you anyway philosophy you obviously are not qualified speak about astronomy lee lee hawkins lhawkins annie wellesley edu department astronomy lhawkins lucy wellesley edu whitin observatory wellesley college wellesley fax
sci.space	space marketing boycott for some reasons humans think that our place control everything doubt that space advertising any worse than any other kind advertising but will lot harder escape and probably the most blatant example yet our disregard for the fact that are not fact creaters the universe annoying little species aren dan gaubatz dgaubat swarthmore edu itty bitty programmer guy the geometry forum swarthmore college
sci.space	space marketing would wonderfull tfv lehigh edu theodore vaida writes article tls news cso uiuc edu gfk uxa cso uiuc edu george krumins writes deleted say that visible light astronomy already dying field pure hokum use the logic that things are already bad doesn matter gets worse absurd maybe common sense and logic are the dying fields deleted those scientists can get around the atmosphere with fancy computer algorythims but have you looked the hubble results the defects the mirror are partially correctable with software see those jupiter pictures for results but the effects are completely reversable why there going shuttle mission fix deleted the main effect the spherical aberration problems with the primary mirror was drive the computer engineers develop the image processing software that much faster when they use the same deconvolution software the images from the fixed hubble ready for some incredible results there every reason believe that the results will exceed the original specs fair margin adaptive optics combination hardware and software works realtime not after the fact the case with hubble you might interested know this technology has made the amateur market the form the adaptive optics system starting page the april sky telescope three page review this new product lists for the article states the adaptive optics system comes handy soft plastic case that three year old could carry around even though this device really only good for the brightest objects could cope with image movements millimeter the telescope focal plane now just imagine how well this infant technology will few years especially dedicated system that has hundreds thousands dollars and many man hours invested its development george krumins pufferfish observatory the universe had its origin gfk uxa cso uiuc edu two hockeysticks colliding home the hockeystick memorial telescope
sci.space	space marketing would wonderfull sun may gmt fcrary ucsu colorado edu frank crary said modern ground based visible light astronomy what these proposed orbiting billboards would upset already dying field the opacity and distortions caused the atmosphere itself have driven most the field use radio far infrared space based telescopes here one radio astronomer quite concerned about radio frequency interference from portable telephones etc mail lazio astrosun cornell edu joseph lazio phone icbm deg deg cornell knows exist stop rape
sci.space	space marketing would wonderfull mon may gmt fcrary ucsu colorado edu frank crary said article may olaf wellesley edu lhawkins annie wellesley edu lee hawkins writes because his doubtfull credibility astronomer modern ground based visible light astronomy what these proposed orbiting billboards would upset already dying field the ahh perhaps that why astronomers have just built meter ground based scopes and are studying designs for larger ones exactly what fraction current research done the big visable light telescopes from what seen less down from amlost years ago that sounds like dying that doesn seem like fair comparison infrared astronomy didn really get started until something like yrs ago didn explode until iras gamma ray and think ray observations didn really get started until the believe the same true ultraviolet observations general and know that extreme short angstroms observations until the euve launched last year had almost history except few observations skylab the twenty five years ago the vast majority astronomers only had access optical radio instruments now with far more instruments available growth some these new fields has resulted optical work representing smaller fraction total astronomical work seriously though you never going get meter scope into orbit cheaply you can build one the ground and with adaptive optics and good site the difference quality narrowed quite bit anyway that would true adaptive optics worked well the visable but take look the papers the subject they refer anything microns visable don know about you but most people have trouble seeing beyond microns there are reasons think adaptive optics will not work shorter wavelengths without truely radical improvements technology hmm some the folks this department planning using adaptive optics the palomar for near infrared observations and microns might surprised hear this and isn the ntt already pushing toward arcsecond resolution from ground based site remember arcseconds was one the selling points hst mail lazio astrosun cornell edu joseph lazio phone icbm deg deg cornell knows exist stop rape
sci.space	over zealous shuttle critics had the the great western the dunno and the great northern postulated brunel masterpiece keep boxing the compass chaps you get round eventually the great western was highly successful transatlantic mail ship with hybrid sail and steam propulsion the great eastern which broke the little giant financially and otherwise was revolutionary leap forward ship design thirty thousand ton all steel vessel with primary steam propulsion was the time easily the biggest ocean going vessel ever built brunel took advantage the fact that cargo and fuel capacity rose with the cube scale while drag rose with the square really big ship could steam thousands miles without coaling unfortunately there was real market for such beast the time and was eventually sold off scrap values another poster said then went successful career telegraph cable laying ship was fact the only ship its day capable laying transatlantic cable one with the endurance and capacity carry the huge reel all the way and the manoeuverabilty dredge for defective sections see arthur clarke book how the world was one think that right that how the shuttle goes down history technical triumph and financial disaster for the builder would not entirely ignoble but doubt history will charitable its true the shuttle can things other launch system can but are they worth doing with low cost access space you could have affordable space station for doing shuttle like extended manned missions the shuttle not much space truck space only not cheap run peter card joint european torus abingdon oxfordshire tel fax email pjc jet compuserve wasnt was the others they made disclaimer please note that the above personal view and should not construed official comment from the jet project
sci.space	astronauts what does weightlessness feel article access digex net prb access digex net pat writes adaptation trainer pat harm here msc oops mean jsc now that aptly named person what when went thru all the spinning chair tests jsc the phd charge was milt reshke but the technician who strapped and occasion inserted the probe needle was named bev bloodworth
sci.space	space marketing would wonderfull article agora rain com jhart agora rain com jim hart writes anybody has strong claim control the the night sky astronomers check out the common law the days when wild lands weren scarce pioneers laid claim the land putting use clearing and growing crop even trespassers can lay claim the right passage they done for long enough and the owners have not complained taken steps stop them usage begets property rights astronomers have been using the night sky for thousands years they own light polluters they will lose their common law right ownership another consequence their ownership that they are free sell now astronomers need money for their work light polluting billboards and mirrors they will need even more money buy extra image processing equipment filters space telescopes etc get around the problem long can define who astronomers are they include amateur astronomers nature lovers can set system voluntary consensus solve this dispute instead invoking bans regulations etc enforced bribed politicians the point gun why folks always think that sordid solution ought pass law solve problems first instead last resort when other methods have failed stuff deleted this proposal certainly needs work but how about working these kind ideas first before writing there ought law letters our congresscritters let give noncoercive consensus via the free market chance solve this problem jim hart jhart agora rain com would hart please explain how one could get every nation earth and every corporation agree that astronomers own the night sky without coercion remember that not every nation follows the english common law most countries for most history was probably true that the rulers owned everything not explicitly owned individuals even north america where the principle enunciated the aboriginal inhabitants should have owned everything when new arrivals wanted use land and resources they just took over case hart hasn noticed there currently brutal war going bosnia about who owns what course some friendly super power were give international astronomy organization some anti satelite missiles and also agree defend attacked such proposal might work but would hardly non coercive some nutty environmentalists think might make sense first try mobilize public opinion against advertising space and also use governmental actions like taxing power for example discourage them this course would too coercive for hart leonard evens len math nwu edu dept mathematics northwestern univ evanston
sci.space	satellite capabilities patriot games hello netters new this board and thought this might the best place for post have question regarding satellite technology seen the movie patriot games the movies the cia utilizes its orbitting sats pinpoint specific terrorist camp africa the photos taken the sats are stunning know that sats are capable photographing the license plates vehicles question this the camp question was taken out the british sas and while the sas was action the cia team was watching the warroom back langley the action the sas was clear and appeared relayed via sat the action was night and the photography appeared ray type that one could see the action within the tents structures the camp does such techology exist and what nature ray etc who wrote the book patriot games mad vlad
sci.space	space marketing would wonderfull article agora rain com jhart agora rain com jim hart writes astronomers have been using the night sky for thousands years they own they don complain now against scenic trespassers light polluters they will lose their common law right ownership english american canadian etc common law recognized legally binding under international law after all talking about something that its very nature isn limited the territory one nation doug loss loss husky bloomu edu
sci.space	space marketing would wonderfull article geoffmc netcom com geoffm netcom com geoff miller writes article rgl ucdavis edu hamlet ucdavis edu dan herrin writes not also abomination that somebody would spend money space advertising when those children are starving perhaps some redistribution wealth would help them this specious emotionalism commercial enterprises typically don spend money starving children other world problems anyway least not excess whatever minimum amount required for lip service and purposes precisely where would you place the threshold beyond which advertising spending deemed abominable and why yes just take money from the profitable commercial enterprises and give the government redistribute government much more efficient trustworthy and noble than self serving businesses let nip this redistributionist ignorance the bud were not for commercial enterprises the whole world would starving roger collins
sci.space	questions for veterans you think you may have some problems you may want make stand the side that the gees won affect too much the writing the disk the hard disk hmm would think being edge would worse since that might make the tracks unsymmetrical around the spindle due the sideways force the head older drives used tell you reformat you were going stand the drive edge this side force might even problem for new drives well seemed work for the mac installation was talking about yeah there something forgot mention even though you not suppposed have water around there some condenstion dripping from the roof the plane make sure that your hardware covered make also sure that your keyboards are protected from the two phase flow coming out sick people happened good luck igor carron texas university
sci.space	interesting cost anecdote article may iti org aws iti org allen sherzer wrote staffer just told interesting story about air force costing team just looked the now called the btw and gave estimate how much would cost the air force build cost sdio build and would cost the usaf million four and half times much willing bet that majority the cost difference could accounted for the requirement for superfluous documentation huge requirements and design reviews travel expenses flying personnel around meetings and over specifying the hardware doubt that the actual fabrication cost materials and labor would very different from sdio costs course this cynical opinion based years watching the government procurement process try cover lack creativity and innovation with reams documentation
sci.space	billsats jeffrey cook sez this object would not interfere with anyone enjoyment the night sky would invisible night nor would have any significant impact astronomical observations suspect there must some kind underlying agenda coming the surface when spite this people are quick shrilly denounce and condemn something that would vividly demonstrate the strength western capitalism lazlo nibble sez buying lichtenstein and paving over with ground glass would also demonstrate the strength western capitalism but that doesn make particularly attractive idea that what this country has been reduced the planetary equivalent guy who gets his penis out parties actually paving ground glass over lichtenstein wouldn demonstrate the strength western capitalism since strength depends use the mind and materials the fulfillment needs and desires mind you not saying one would benefit from glassed over land but don think anyone would actually pay for unlike the potential billsats don quite follow you the part about someone exposing their genitals parties but got chuckle from anyway and thought had some strange friends tommy mac tom mcwilliams they communicated with the communists ibm msu edu and pacified the pacifists timbuk
sci.space	space marketing boycott according the person talked the proposed billboard will too small resolve with the naked eye small and visually unimportant anyway suggested that the visual impact would approximate that jumbo jet feet altitude are you sure didn tailor his comments according what guessed you wanted hear other words lie think about what good would billboard for advertiser nobody can see who would advertise telescope companies pretty narrow audience here
sci.space	space marketing would wonderfull fcrary ucsu colorado edu frank crary writes while sure sagan considers sacrilegious that wouldn because his doubtfull credibility astronomer modern ground based visible light astronomy what these proposed orbiting billboards would upset already dying field the opacity and distortions caused the atmosphere itself have driven most the field use radio far infrared space based telescopes hardly the keck telescope hawaii has taken its first pictures they nearly good hubble for tiny fraction the cost any case bright point light passing through the field doesn ruin observations that were the case the thousands existing satellites would have already done satelliets might not seem bright the eyes but far astronomy concerned they are extremely bright believe that this orbiting space junk will far brighter still more like the full moon the moon upsets deep sky observation all over the sky and not just looking because scattered light this known problem but course two weeks out every four are what happens when this billboard circles every minutes what would good time then frank crary boulder matt kennel mbk inls ucsd edu institute for nonlinear science university california san diego archive for nonlinear dynamics papers programs ftp lyapunov ucsd edu username anonymous
soc.religion.christian	cfv soc religion islam ahmadiyya moderated call for votes this the official call for votes for this newsgroup name proposed newsgroup soc religion islam ahmadiyya charter religious newsgroup which would mainly devoted fostering understanding and appraisal the ahmadiyya muslim community its beliefs ideology and philosophy will also discuss the distinction between ahmadiyya muslim community and other branches islam addition this newsgroup will also discuss the beliefs teachings and philosophy all the other major religions pro mote universal religious appreciation awareness and tolerance the newsgroup may also used post important religious events within the world wide ahmadiyya islamic community voting instructions voting being held since the first call for votes appeared may and will continue untill may gmt all votes should received within this period gives total days for all vote all votes favor creation the proposed newsgroup should sent form mail message sria yes ucsu colorado edu with clear statement the body the message like vote yes for soc religion islam ahmadiyya vote favor etc similarly all votes against the proposed newsgroup should sent form mail message sria ucsu colorado edu with clear statement the body the message like vote for soc religion islam ahmadiyya vote against the creation etc you may also include your vote the subject header your mail please make sure include your full name your mailer does not that for you one person may only vote once matter how many mail accounts has only one vote per person shall considered valid any ambiguous votes like vote yes for shall only considered comments and would not counted votes votes received after gmt may will not valid and not counted the event multiple votes being received from the same person only the last one will counted you change your mind regarding the way you have voted send your new vote again your previous vote shall discarded posting usenet will not counted vote please not send any votes the mail address the per son who has posted this cvf those votes shall not counted either note acknowledgement shall sent everyone who votes two additional cfv will posted during the course the vote number yes votes will not disclosed during the the voting period the end which all votes shall made public purpose the newsgroup the following are the main purposes this group shall achieve highlight the common beliefs all major religions and philosophical traditions they relate ahmadiyya muslim community discuss the doctrines origin and teachings the ahmad iyya muslim community dynamic world wide movement iii expound islamic teachings and beliefs the holy quran and islamic traditions from the ahmadiyya islamic perspective emphasize and discuss the similarities between ahmadi muslims and followers other religions the world and explore how understanding and respect for each other faith can brought about eliminate religious intol erance and malice among people all religious and phil osophical traditions look into the origin and teachings all religions general and islam and ahmadiyya muslim movement par ticular and use the commonality origin foster better understanding among ahmadi muslims and other people and promote acceptance universality fundamental rights the freedom conscience point out current world problems and suggest solutions these problems offered different religions and systems ethical philosophies vii investigate the implications science religion with particular emphasis the ahmadi muslim perspective but with openness dialogue with people all religions and philosophical traditions with reasoned positions the relationship between religion and empirical science logic and scientific ethics viii exchange important news and views about the ahmadiyya muslim community and other religions add diversity the existing religious newsgroups pre sent usenet the interest promoting forum for decorous dialogue inquire why religious persecution the rise the world and suggest solutions remedy the ever deterior ating situation the world general and the islamic world particular commemorate the contributions humanity society and world peace made the founders and followers all religions general and the international ahmadiyya muslim community particular type the group will moderated for orderly and free religious dialo gue the moderation will not prevent disagreement dissent controversy based difference beliefs doctrine rather the moderators will seek mainly discourage gratuitously deroga tory abusive squalid language and the introduction issues which are irrelevant based the provisions this charter the moderators have been chosen through personal mail and through general consensus among the proponents discussion news groups the following moderators have been proposed and agreed upon moderator nabeel rana rana rintintin colorado edu moderator tahir ijaz ijaz ccu umanitoba brief description about ahmadiyya islam the ahmadiyya movement islam international organi sation was found qadian india the founder this movement hazrat mirza ghulam ahmad was proclaimed the promised reformer this age foretold the scriptures almost all major religions the world claimed the fulfillment the long awaited second comming jesus christ metaphorically the muslim mahdi and the promised messiah the claims hazrat ahmad raised storms hostility and extreme opposition which are often witnessed the history divine reformers even today this sect being persecuted especial some the muslim regimes the right ahmadi muslims openly practice their religion and define themselves muslims has been severely restricted many muslim countries the united nations human rights organizations such amnesty international and top leaderships some countries have voiced their concerns against this denial basic human and civil liberaties the members this movement but far avail despite the opposition and persecution the movement cont inues grow with current membership millions from around the world over countries who come from diverse ethnic and cul tural backgrounds the movement devoted world peace and strives towards developing better understanding all religions ahmadi muslims have always been opposed all forms violence bigotry reli gious intolerance and fundamentalism among its many philanthropic activities the sect has tablished network hundreds schools hospitals and clinics many third world countries these institutions are staffed volunteer professionals and are fully financed the movement internal resources the movement stresses the importance educa tion and leadership its members have included high number professionals well world class individuals the ahmadiyya mission bring about universal moral reform establish peace and justice and unite mankind under one universal brotherhood newsgroup creation the discussion for this proposed newsgroup has now offi cially ended voting will held for three weeks the news group gets majority and more yes create votes than don create votes the newsgroup shall created about the vote taker anthony lest has been asked the proponents this newsgroup act official impartial vote taker for the proposed newsgroup has objection use his workstation for the purpose vote taking neither the university colora nor anthony lest has anything with the proposal the newsgroup they are just collecting the votes neutral third party questions comments any questions comments about the proposed newsgroup may sent nabeel rana rana rintintin colorado edu any questions problems voting should sent anthony lest lest ucsu colorado edu
soc.religion.christian	homosexuality issues christianity bruce liv bruce stephens suggests different levels acceptance homosexuality regard homosexual orientation sin evil whatever regard homosexual behaviour sin but accept orientation though presumably orientation unfortunate and dislike people who indulge but love the sinner accept homosexuality altogether would add our churches should accept homosexual orientation but hold all people certain standards sexual behavior promiscuity abuse power relationships harrassment compulsivity are equally out place the lives homosexual heterosexual people course this would bring the dread shibboleth homosexual marriage and couldn have that billh
soc.religion.christian	ethnicity worship jerryl payne writes sublimate culture for the sake what you perceive unity seems antithetical the very message inclusion that you preach agree with the exception that don preach ignoring our cultures the body whole must unified the question shall melting pot boiling ourselves down one legitimate expression shall more like stew maintaining the textural integrity the expressed diversity while upholding the unity thought released all churches from the use the latin mass unity allow them speak the people the common language diversity revelation see that the first century church there was one congregation each major city there was one unified church now each city there were people different cultures naturally they formed something stew with different members having different heritages nevertheless they were one body they met together sometimes smaller groups their homes and sometimes bigger groups places such the temple courts now particular city then and now you will find that there common language associated with that region for instance rome latin was spoken the united states today english spoken would make sense that congregations different cities would speak the common language and not necessarily latin naturally you would expect the lead evangelist preach the common language the first century church there were probably many people the congregation who could speak given tongue translate the message for people foreign ethnic groups today however you don see people speaking tongues translate sermons even called pentacostal churches have modern day equivalent though lingual speakers now the unified church which member sometimes called the international churches christ when all meet together sundays there are headphones people who don speak english from which they hear ongoing translation the sermon their native tongue neat idea huh now meet different size groups random sort way sundays sometimes there will meeting only haitians spanish speaking people for example who will hear evangelist preach their native language addition meet small groups couple times during the week for bible discussion groups and devotionals someone who speaks different language will almost always with people who also speak his language assuming the congregation large enough for those meetings for the people who speak the common language they can keep touch with their culture they want but they will also have equally deep friendships among their church relationships with people many various nationalities has the purpose the church been thwarted this action the action letting catholics worship native language instead latin indeed not see second paragraph response the second clipping your article however you mean the action forming denominations based culture then the purpose the church has been indeed thwarted assume the second possiblility when answering your next clipping rather believe has been enhanced for paul exhorts become one them that might reach them thus person group people feel more comfortable among their own shall not give them place where they can feel comfortable with their heritage and still ove god guess aaron you have met some needs people certainly helping them proud their cultural heritages when most denominations didn yet you have largely isolated yourselves from having quality christian friendships outside your nationality and your denomination shall certainly give people place feel comfortable with their heritage however will this way that does not destroy church unity but rather encourages friendships among all disciples this the approach some the groups that you cite sounds like these groups have wonderful intentions but they are going about things the wrong way and names like the african methodist episcopal church still make cringe although not much before understand that there was more racism the past that caused such groups formed but now should try unite know that hard for many people this newsgroup imagine there being only one body people earth but quite possible and working make happen however what might smaller step towards unity would taking the word african out your denomination name then perhaps someday long time off you can also remove the methodist episcopal part also and simply part the church with regard inclusivity note tht your sig emits from mit you know the tute religiously and culturally diversified and not everyone who comes there immediately comfortable with english much less american culture what shall the conduct the campus churches then shall there one church for the sake unity shall the organizations like kcf useful helping students new america make the transition culture language and thought there shall one church for the sake unity and shall useful helping students new america make the transition culture language and thought shouldn make new denomination try solve problems the whole denominational mindset only causes more problems sadly the ame church retain african cutlure the root our expression but are means exclusive since you live cambridge invite you visit the local assembly there thank you for the invitation that shows that you indeed have the heart spread the gospel jesus well take part your cultural heritage thank you also for responding post know all too well how they can very time consuming the whole idea celebrating your culture paved with good intentions but still feel that you must restore and preserve unity the same time own church the boston church has the acapella singing that you mentioned your post yet doesn limit expression mexican culture even though the mit campus ministry and not the spanish speaking zone have made commitment god that will the sunday services church because know that brothers and sisters here are fully devoted love for god his disciples don believe tongues you may have already picked because understanding biblical christianity however certainly willing visit your congregation provided that doesn interfere with normal worship since you also live cambridge also extend invitation you visit our services often you like you can meet the mit students the student center across from mass ave sundays leave for worship simply call after wednesday night find out where the service will held particular day number but will few weeks from now and for the rest the summer our service normally last from noon but occasionally are later earlier times per year let always strive reach all with the gospel any means necessary move from milk meat the petty things the world that temporally separate will dissolve away and shall stand with our naked realizations that god has shed his grace all his delightful creation definitely let also strive grow obedience the lord through being men and women after god own heart aaron bryce cardenas net net mit undergraduate student aaron cardenas environmental engineering snail mass ave aaronc athena mit edu mail cambridge good for two weeks speak one another with psalms hymns and spiritual songs sing and make music your heart the lord always giving thanks god the father for everything the name our lord jesus christ ephesians
soc.religion.christian	homosexuality issues christiani article may athos rutgers edu todd nickel laurentian writes the question how they interpret these verses must now establish reasons for not believing this true based the interpretation these scriptures given someone who has come grips with them see other way interpreting them other than homosexuyality being wrong please tell how these verses can interpreted any other way read them and the surrounding text christ love bryan
soc.religion.christian	mary assumption article may athos rutgers edu brian finnerty bfinnert chaph usc edu writes one last point catholic attempted explain catholic doctrine the assumption asserting connected belief that mary did not die this not correct summary what catholics believe the dogma the assumption was carefully phrased avoid saying whether mary did did not die fact the consensus among catholic theologians seems that mary fact did die this would make sense christ died and his mother who waited the foot the cross would want share his death the above article good short summary traditional christian teaching concerning the death mary also very good question about the virgin mary micheal walker tells the story very well would like add that the eastern orthodox church celebrate the dormition falling asleep the theotokos the mother god the icon for this day shows mary lying bed surrounded the apostles who are weeping christ his resurrected glory there holding what seems small child this fact mary soul already with christ heaven the assumption mary one more confirmation for christians that christ did indeed conquer death forshadows the general resurrection the last day the disciples were not surprised find mary body missing from the grave she was the mother the savior she was the first all christians she gave birth the word god were not for her would not saved this why pray the orthodox church through the prayers the theotokos savior save timothy richardson rich student umn edu
soc.religion.christian	there were hell article may athos rutgers edu mdw cbnewsg att com mark wuest writes article may athos rutgers edu shellgate llo psi com larry overacker writes you knew beyond all doubt that hell did not exist and that unbelievers simply remained dead would you remain christian interesting question esp since remember wishing with all heart that this were true that wouldn have good christian anymore christianity was terribly hard the only reward was heaven and maybe sometimes was really good acceptance wanted way out you knew this beyond all doubt then you would foolish disciple man who claimed did exist the truth you can not jesus disciple and disagree with him the same time not allowing him your lord what jesus has done for since found him some months ago not want lose period that said originally interpreted the what christ never mentioned sheol and weeping and gnashing teeth christ preached that those who did not follow him died and stayed dead and that point forever ceased exist fear based religion not faith relationship with the one who made all follow christ because great way live life and could care less what really happens after die being buddhist great way live life not converting though believe that can only complete through christ you think that buddhists can also complete jen include stdisclaimer jenk microsoft com msdos testing
soc.religion.christian	question about virgin mary article may geneva rutgers edu news cbnewsk att com writes basically the teaching infallibility holds that the pope infallible matters faith and doctrine the college bishops likewise infallible and the laity well not exactly correct but nice try the catholic doctrine infallibility refers freedom from error teaching the universal church matters faith morals this teaching which taken doctrine randal lee nicholas mandock catechist prism gatech edu
soc.religion.christian	how got saved well was certainly turned off that first paragraph oft used platitudes can count the times heard those common tactics anymore you may not believe but that doesn change the fact that true the old analogy about trusting your parents sheesh need point out how parents can show children that they are right that difference capability alone crushes that analogy any facts about christianity have seen turned out beliefs what seek fact knowledge can get and evidence for belief can far from christians have received neither before becoming christian too had problems when asked one explain the actual evidence not always what you see person outside should but not always very specific somewhat miraculous example the truth god working help his followers soemthing that happened for nearly years after accident had severe complications from triple fracture left leg and surgery pins put then removed the bone itself was perfectly healed infectoin that could detected yet was constant pain and ankle and foot were always swollen and bluish more complicatios developed other leg none which could explained the best specialists and most sophisticated tests northern illinois region went everywhere one could explain durin gthat summer june exact gave life and heart christ and vowed relinquish control over life which never really had anyway because what did for the cross and the fact that whole life was screwed trying fix was facing the possibility lifetime wheelchair was confined one order save legs from any further damage since the cause problems were unknown had been for about months before that day found ore than coincidental that less than weeks after put faith where mouth was one more the long line doctors and not even orthopeodic specialist diagnosed problems with difficulty set the path effective cure and was walking and running again without the pain that had stopped from that for years the diagnosis was something felt the other doctors must have overlooked because was perfectly obvious from test results maybe this doesn hit you miraculous but really imagine active year old being told she may not able walk mcuh longer and now happy year old who can dance and run knowing that the problem was there all along and was revealed just after she did what she knew was right the song says our god awesome god
soc.religion.christian	satanic tounges article may geneva rutgers edu marka hcx ssd csd harris com mark ashley writes citing article may geneva rutgers edu mmh dcs qmw matthew huntbach have simple test take several people who can speak only one language chinese russian german english then let the gifted one start speaking toungues the audience should understand the gifted one clearly their native language however the gifted one can only hear himself speaking his own language works everytime this thread starting get really silly such nonsense not belong and really hurts read some the posts this issue chose believe whetever want but are not allowed define our own christianity see parts you see something that not see vice versa does not give the right play jokes your belief there wonder that your miracle does not work you designet yourself and even you were able collect group people like the one you describe see reason why your miracle should really happen god the one who does miracles not humans after all are all the same way least are all headed for the same goal following different paths remember that are going spend eternity together can not stand your view here earth how can possibly stand spending eternity together with you tongues question belief not wether you believe jesus but you believe that able give you this gift just any other the gifts mentioned the bible but there evidence the bible that people who not accept these gifts are any way better than others perhaps would believe the gifted ones more they were glorifying god rather than themselves then perhaps witness real miracle maybe some the people who have received spiritual gifts are more interested glorifying themselves than glorifying god don know but this the case still does not suggest that the gifts are faked the bible you will find that jesus did not always miracles said that nothing except what father tells perhaps woulkd for the best all where all able live that example him bjorn mail mail bjorn larsen bjorn larsen delab sintef sintef delab trondheim tel norway fax
soc.religion.christian	what was the immaculate conception marida ignacio writes still the angel gabriel greetings was hail mary full grace the lord with you blessed art thou amongst women even mary was confused about this greeting there are various explanations for her reaction the angel greeting one that she grasped what the angel was getting that she was the mother the messiah and knew what this entailed all the suffering this gave her moment pause
soc.religion.christian	the doctrine original sin regarding the consequences the original sin catholics believe that what adam primarily lost his sin for himself and the human race was sanctifying grace this basically share the divine life take rock and make able talk what god does human being through sanctifying grace similar makes such one able live plane that above the powers any possible creature this the everlasting life that the new testament speaks what christ did when came was restore this life sanctifying grace the human race instituted the sacraments the means which this life given people and its increase fostered the absence sanctifying grace death means automatic exclusion from heaven the nature heaven such that impossible for human being have any part without the gift sanctifying grace use example would like taking that rock and attempting hold conversation with rocks cannot talk neither can human beings live heaven without sanctifying grace this all obviously applies equally well infants adults since both have souls infants must baptized therefore they cannot enter into heaven they too need this form life them they cannot enter into heaven turning around infant baptism good supporting evidence for the catholic belief sanctifying grace unless baptism causes some change infant soul there particular reason insist the practice yet infant baptism was probably practiced the apostles themselves and was certainly part the church shortly thereafter there evidence for infant baptism the new testament itself cor acts also acts known for sure that least one disciple the apostle john was baptized infant polycarp because remark makes the acts his martyrdom justin martyr mentions men and women baptized infants there direct evidence irenaeus against heresies and tertullian baptism all these far mentioned are the first years after our lord death after that there starts tons evidence for the practice
soc.religion.christian	the ancient canon the roman rite the following juxtaposition part ancient text known sacramentis usually attributed ambrose milan and the canon the traditional catholic mass the roman rite the conclusion from this comparison that the central part the traditional roman canon was already fairly well place sometime the late century taken from the mass the western rites the right reverend dom fernand cabrol abbot farnborough without permission excerpted from chapter the mass rome from the fifth the seventh centuries the paragraph the end from the book not sorry about the long lines joe buehler text sacramentis roman canon roman canon about english translation igitur omitted here memento domine communicantes hanc igitur oblationem fac nobis inquit sacerdos quam oblationem deus thou god deign hanc oblationem ascriptam omnibus quaesumus bless what offer and ratam rationabilem benedictam adscriptam make approved acceptabilem quod figura ratam rationabilem effective right and est corporis sanguinis acceptabilemque facere wholly pleasing every jesu christi digneris nobis corpus way that may become sanguis fiat dilectissimi for our good the body filii tui domini nostri jesu and blood thy dearly christi beloved son jesus christ our lord qui pridie quam pateretur qui pridie quam pateretur who the day before sanctis manibus suis accepit panem sanctas suffered took bread into accepit panem respexit venerabiles manus suas his holy and venerable caelum sancte pater elevatis oculis ccelum hands and having raised omnipotens aeterne deus deum patrem suum his eyes heaven unto gratias agens benedixit omnipotentem tibi gratias thee god his almighty fregit fractum quae agens benedixit fregit father giving thanks apostolis suis discipulis deditque discipulis suis thee blessed broke suis tradidit dicens dicens accipite and gave his accipite edite hoc manducate hoc omnes hoc disciples saying take omnes hoc est enim corpus est enim corpus meum all and eat this meum quod pro multis for this body confringetur similiter etiam calicem simili modo postquam like manner when the postquam caenatum est caenatum est accipiens supper was done taking pridie quam pateretur hunc praeclarum calicem also this goodly chalice accepit respexit sanctas venerabiles manus into his holy and caelum sancte pater suas item tibi gratias venerable hands again omnipotens aeterne deus agens benedixit deditque giving thanks thee gratias agens benedixit discipulis suis dicens blessed and gave apostolis suis discipulis accipite bibite his disciples saying suis tradidit dicens omnes hic est enim calix take all and drink accipite bibite hoc sanguinis mei novi this for this the omnes hic est enim sanguis aeterni testamenti chalice blood the meus mysterium fidei qui pro new and eternal covenant vobis pro multis the mystery faith effundetur remissionem which shall shed for peccatorum you and for many unto the forgiveness sins haec quotiescumque feceritis often you shall mei memoriam facietis these things memory shall you them ergo memores gloriosissimae unde memores domine nos mindful therefore ejus passionis inferis servi tui sed plebs tua lord not only the resurrectionis caelum sancta ejusdem christi blessed passion the ascensionis offerimus tibi filii tui domini nostri tam same christ thy son our hanc immaculatam hostiam beatae passionis necnon lord but also his hunc panem sanctum inferis resurrectionis resurrection from the calicem vitae aeternae sed caelos gloriosae dead and finally his ascensionis offerimus glorious ascension into praeclarae majestati tuae heaven thy ministers tuis donis datis hostiam also thy holy people puram hostiam sanctam offer unto thy supreme hostiam immaculatam panem majesty the gifts sanctum vitae aeternae bestowed upon the calicem salutis perpetuae pure victim the holy victim the all perfect victim the holy bread life eternal and the chalice unending salvation petimus precamur supra quae propitio and this thou deign hanc oblationem suscipias sereno vultu respicere regard with gracious and sublimi altari tuo per manus digneris accepta habere kindly attention and hold angelorum tuorum sicut sicuti accepta habere acceptable thou didst suscipere dignatus munera dignatus munera pueri tui deign accept the pueri tui justi abel justi abel sacrificium offerings abel thy sacrificium patriarchae patriarchae nostri abrahae just servant and the nostri abrahae quod tibi quod tibi obtulit summus sacrifice abraham our obtulit summus sacerdos sacerdos tuus melchisedech patriarch and that which melchisedech sanctum sacrificium thy chief priest immaculatam hostiam melchisedech offered unto thee holy sacrifice and spotless victim supplices rogamus most humbly implore omnipotens deus jube haec thee almighty god bid perferri per manus sancti these offerings angeli tui sublime altare brought the hands tuum conspectu divinae thy holy angel unto thy majestatis tuae etc altar above before the face thy divine majesty etc there doubt that have here two editions the same text and that sacramentis localised upper italy and dated about the year the most ancient witness possess the principal parts the roman canon which only appear the sacramentaries some time after the seventh century the question whether the roman canon not older even than that sacramentis discussed liturgiologists mgr batiffol this opinion but the contrary think that the former bears traces closer composition more carefully guarded orthodoxy and that consequently text corrected from sacramentis shall see studying the list names the memento the living and that the dead that mgr batiffol argues with good reason that can date these fragments from the pontificate symmachus thus have the state the roman mass least the chief parts the canon the beginning the fourth century
soc.religion.christian	why people become atheists article may athos rutgers edu fil sapienza med umich edu fil sapienza writes interested finding out why people become atheists after having believed some god god conversing with them other groups often sensed anger hostility though don mean imply that all atheists are angry hostile does seem one motivation for giving faith thus some atheism might result from broken ness like field this one may although believer and follower christ experiences with religion haven been all that positive fact there was one point life when for about three days simply couldn believe the existence god anyway when look back upon the troubles had they seem fall into two categories impulses unbelief that resulted from logical contradictions and impulses unbelief that resulted from frustration with god the first category doesn occur much anymore have worked through most the arguments for the non existence god but way back when these would cause some problems and would have struggle with faith continue believe can see where others less stubborn than and mean stubborn stubborness has often been the only thing standing between atheism from time time would fail the second category arises out some long term personal difficulties and the struggle live life god would have live without living life others would tell how god would have live good example this struggle with the more radical christians meet not nor have ever been fire for chirst and don think ever want nevertheless not lukewarm about faith don really fit with the mainstream either quite naturally feel lot anxiety about dislocation within christian society and can lead lot internal tension when want what know right but when another part believes that what want wrong because all the other christians think quite naturally this tension has destructive effect relationship with god and during all this internal strife there atheism sitting there like the promised land rules responsibilities need live anyone expectations but own complete freedom course all illusion but nevertheless very appealing illusion especially when the called people god are behaving like total twits can easily understand why someone would that route and would hostile ever coming back imho many the former christians turned atheists who are now actively hostile christianity are because their experience with christ and god wasn very peaceful one but one mind control and shut and what you told because know what best for you because god will and you young know what god will yet courtesy some christ more overzealous followers final reason why people become atheists because christians not have very good reputation right now one the things that attracted people christianity the ancient days was the love that christians obviously had for one another and the world around them unlike the rest the world christian communities actively cared for their poor and the christian rich did not trod the backs their poorer brothers but bent down help them christians were known for living exemplary lives even they were thought traitors the state because they wouldn sacrifice the emporer nowadays courtesy the media and some christian leaders who lost christ their way power people see christians sexually repressed hippocritical busibodies who want remake society into facist version their own moral view there are lot more reasons why people become atheists but don have time into them right now tom ault
soc.religion.christian	god morality and massacres jek nih gov james kiefer writes stuff deleted first point what they are doing wrong just what joseph brothers did was wrong just what judas did was wrong they intend for evil god somehow brings good out that does not make them any less subject just condemnation and punishment second point course god will bring good out but not the same good that would have brought the serbians had refrained from the sins robbery and rape and murder nor does the good purposes excuse from the duty doing what right what you saying then that god exercises direct control influence upon humanity doesn control our every thought action but takes what whether intended for evil not and turns into something good seems that this idea conflicts with the belief that god gave humans free will far can determine impossible reconcile these two different ideas god were exert his influence upon anyone anything anytime would impeding upon someone free will unless course you believe that god did not give complete and unabated free will but rather some sort conditional free will something that allows make our own choices and control our own lives except when god wants use fulfill some good purpose his own hardening our heart controlling some other way hear alot people who look various events mostly catastrophies things like the aids epidemic and make comments about god will have very difficult time understanding why people believe that god controls anything that happens this planet except possibly when being asked through someone prayer according the bible pharoah was going let moses people after one two plagues but god kept hardening his heart moses could cast all plagues upon the egyptians the last plague causing the death many innocent children then god impeded upon pharoah free will and used him puppet god did this not just free the hebrews but free them some sort grand fashion suppose from the hebrew point view this could seen turning something bad into good but sure the egyptians didn see this way all your examples how god turned something bad into something good are based upon showing favortism one group people over another after all only good based upon your point view why does god who supposed the god all humanity play favorites
soc.religion.christian	why people become atheists article may athos rutgers edu muirm argon gas organpipe uug arizona edu maxwell muir writes think you should give the amatuer psysochology all candor would happy proven wrong problem will have proven wrong sound broken you absolutely not went through journey lukewarm christianity agnosticism atheism agnosticism and now although know faith less than what should christianity again think path many take jeff johnson jcj tellabs com
soc.religion.christian	revelations babylon woo far had the following interpretations the figure the whore babylon rev the united states america mho which was figure the fallen spiritual powers who corrupt and oppress human society historical jerusalem historical rome dare suggest that the passage might many layered meaning how about the prophecy reveals god judgement the corrupt idolatrous state oppressing his chosen people that god judgement extends especially his once chosen city because despite that city special call still rejected god grace the decisive time rev also isn rev equally suggestive rome jerusalem that the usofa guilty many the crimes rome babylon and equally subject god judgement that the good book actually encompasses all these viewpoints revealing the corrupting spiritual powers warring against mankind through the very society that created clever huh flame here need argue all think mary view has lot sense because there seems deliberate contrast between rev and rev the mortal jerusalem chosen god but never historically fulfilling its vocation and the new jerusalem perfected outside history purely god grace details like rev who sits many waters rev the single stream the new jersualem the river life flowing from the throne god and the lamb rex didn understand your post what the relevance babylonian mystery religions all this please elaborate your ideas about the book rev why you freak the idea primarily spiritual interpretation rev mail but can get thru unknown illegal user reflex fnal fnal gov something you not telling
soc.religion.christian	question about hell what the basis the idea hell being place eternal suffering biblical please reference here train thought god using the earth manufacture heavenly beings then logical that there would certain yield and certain amount waste the yield goes heaven and the waste burned destroyed hell why necessary punish the waste rather than just destroy peace and joy dale wyttenbach
soc.religion.christian	monophysites and mike walker article may athos rutgers edu nabil cae wisc edu nabil ayoub writes final note the oriental orthodox and eastren orthodox did sign common statement christology which the heresey monophysitism was condemned the coptic orthodox church does not believe monophysitism this point that seems have been overlooked many the ending year old schism seems sight the theologians said that the differences between them were fundamentally ones terminology and that the christological faith both groups was the same some parishes have concelebrated the eucharist and here southern africa are running joint theological training course for coptic and byzantine orthodox there are still several things sorted out however far the copts are concerned there were three ecumenical councils whily the byzantine orthodox acknowledge seven steve hayes department missiology editorial department univ south africa box pretoria south africa internet hayesstw risc unisa fidonet steve hayes fidonet org faq missiology the study christian mission and part the faculty theology unisa
soc.religion.christian	homosexuality issues christianity article may athos rutgers edu whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu writes any one who thinks that homosexuality and christianity are compatible should check out romans corinthians timothy jude peter gen lev name few the verses that pertain homosexuality but wouldn that for any sin father told when was growing catholics were not allowed associate with anyone who was divorced there are few verses prohibitting divorce somehow divorce became acceptable even catholicism anullments certainly longer sin associate with divorced person the point that each person has their own temptations deal with paul repeatedly talks about the thorn his side some think refers lust others pride but who knows whatever the thorn was apparently was not compatible with christianity yet does that make his epistles any less the bible warns against judging greed anxiety impure thoughts bearing grudges etc etc suppose should seek out all the called christians who have entertained impure thoughts and oust them all those who have given greed get outta here jesus pointed out that was the physician for the sinners any attempts make homosexuals feel unwelcome because our discomfort with homosexuality incompatible with christianity our hatred deep that rather than see someone try become closer jesus need keep them away does jesus need screen out those guilty particular sin really mistrust jesus when says can forgive any sin think about among the people jesus encountered were sinners and the pharisees the sinners embraced and forgave the pharisees hypocritcal unmerciful self righteous pointed out others sins and did not seek and thus did not gain forgiveness their own sins what take from this and other verses that not admit our sins those sins will not forgiven and since those guilty even one sin are guilty the whole law those not repenting the judging others are guilty guilty they committed the same sin they judged others the poor spirit meek humble merciful pure heart peacemakers those who thirst for justice those who suffer for his sake are blessed joe moore
soc.religion.christian	mormon temples article may athos rutgers edu jwindley cheap utah edu jay windley writes there are other interpretations christian history this matter one must recall that most what know about the gnostics was written their enemies eusebius claims that jesus imparted secret information peter james and john after his resurrection and that those apostles transmitted that information the rest the twelve eusebius historia ecclesiastica this curious read the lord imparted the gift knowledge james the just john and peter after his resurrection these delivered the rest the apostles and they the seventy whom barnabas was one eusebius ecclesiastical history seems that the lord imparted the gift knowledge not that the lord imparted secret information apostles interestingly enough eusebius refers the groups which today call gnostics promulgators false gnosis eusebius cit iii his gripe was not that thay professed gnosis but that they had the wrong one afraid that cannot find this portrayal don see anywhere where eusebius mentions that certain gnostics had the wrong gnosis the closest when eusebius summarizes hegesippus statements whilst there were any all that attempted pervert the sound doctrine the saving gospel they were yet skulking dark retreats now one can approach this and other such evidence many ways don intend that everyone interpret christian history but believe that evidence exists favorably interpreted course early christian rites analogous those practiced mormons today favorably interpreted just looking two the four references that you gave have the handy irenaeus and the clemetine recognitions will have look for see room for such interpretations and any such interpretation still falls short equivalence the temple ceremonies the links for jay using for support are imparting the gift knowledge imparted secret information being given secret signs and tokens gain entrance heaven but there not enough equivalence between the the ideas for able call this favorable interpretation appears closer fabrication robert weiss psyrobtw ubvms buffalo edu
soc.religion.christian	mormon beliefs about bastards article may athos rutgers edu erh tesla njit edu writes could anyone enlighten how the mormon church views children born out wedlock particular interested know any stigma attached the children opposed the parents especially keen learn there not any prohibition the mormon faith bastards entering heaven having their names entered the big genealogical book the mormons keep salt lake city this issue which the official position has changed over time interested learning both old and new beliefs mail posting fine all information pointers are appreciated well since wife your gentle term bastard can probably speak with bit authority this any stigma associated with children conceived and born out wedlock rests solely upon the parents they committed sexual transgression for which they should repent the child itself has priori limitations him her indeed the concept blaming the child for the parents sins one most mormons would find appalling note that lds theology rejects original sin the term usually defined and the subsequent need for infant baptism moroni the book mormon indeed lds doctrine goes one step further and some cases holds parents responsible for their children sins they have failed bring them properly note that this passage applies only members the lds church also note that there big genealogical book salt lake city the lds church has massive storage facility the nearby mountains containing microfilm vital statistic records birth christening baptism marriage death gathered from all over the entire world may misremembering but believe they have records for some billion people that vault the same time the lds church building line genealogical database neither case there some kind worthiness screening whether someone can entered the only potential issue that establishing who the parents were and that would apply only the case the database bruce bruce webster love the constitution this land cto pages software inc but hate the damned rascals that bwebster pages com administer import pages disclaimer attributed brigham young the following arrived separate posting clh follow own follow lest anyone misunderstand the term bastard one which have never years lds church membership heard applied formally informally child born out wedlock and indeed would rightly considered vulgar offensive term would not have echoed the expression reply except hopes that the poster would recognize the offensive nature the word the given context unfortunately after posting reply remembered that subtle points are often lost the net and figured better spell out bruce bruce webster bwebster pages com
soc.religion.christian	homosexuality issues christianity article geneva rutgers edu loisc microsoft com lois christiansen writes you might visit some congregations christians who happen homosexuals that are spirit filled believers not mcc before you lumping all together with troy perry gee think there are some real criminals robbers muderers drug addicts who appear fun loving caring people too what your point just because the people are nice isn satan having hayday pitting christian against christian over any issue can especially homosexuality let reach the homosexuals for christ let not try change them just need bring them christ doesn want them gay can change that they are living moral life committed someone the same sex and god moving their lives who are tell them they have change think the old saying hate the sin and not the sinner appropriate here many who belive homosexuality wrong probably don hate the people don don hate kids when they wrong either but tell them what right and they lie don admit they are wrong just don make effort improve repent they get punished think this quite appropriate you may want careful about how you think satan working here maybe trying destroy our sense right and wrong through feel goodism maybe trying convince you that you know more than god kind like the adam and eve story read and compare today mentality you may suprised
soc.religion.christian	why people become atheists ken then what happens when you die why are you here what the purpose your life you think just chance you the family you are and have the friends you have why you think your searching fill the void that exists your life who you think can fill that void dave
soc.religion.christian	why people become atheists article may athos rutgers edu prism gatech edu randal lee nicholas mandock writes bob reminds roommate order disbelieve atheism says will need proven wrong about well don even waste time trying tell him that just have take word for response tells will say atheist prayer for who the atheist prayer being said
soc.religion.christian	athiests and hell article may athos rutgers edu rexlex fnal fnal gov writes much deleted point today might the masons just note that they too worshipped osiris egypt much deleted bugs when see this kind nonsense first there reasonable evidence linking masonry ancient egypt even that existed prior the late century and there nothing definitive before the second worship osiris not nor has ever been part masonic practice are strictly non denominational tangents never ending tangents you said rex peter trei ptrei mitre org editor masonic digest
soc.religion.christian	why people become atheists article may athos rutgers edu noye midway uchicago edu writes christians can also feel that sense difference however when they are associated with those weird televangelists who always talk about satan you excuse the cliched sound this everyone has deal with his her differences from other people can understand how being atheist could hard for you being christian sometimes hard for this not all comparable christianity the main stream western culture you are trivializing the experiences others remember what was like being different christian were told all the time that were different and fact that only members the our church were really christians though others who believed god weren bad atheists were small minority that was nothing compared being atheist the only thing comparable would young child being christian being surrounded staunch atheists including parents who actively persecute any religious tendancies both actual punishments and even worse emotional blackmail they would also have have the whole mainstream society their side maybe these conditions could have occured the old soviet union not country with under god its pledge allegiance doubt even then because children have taught christians and hence must have support somewhere have sympathy for gays growing repressive environments and having hide and sometimes first try deny part themselves because been there only case was rationality instead sexuality which was forced try repress some way the pressures were different course because you chose your beliefs are you saying that they were not your choice but born necessity please flames about whether not gay people choose their lifestyle that elsewhere this newsgroup yes atheism was born necessity for intellectually honest person belief mostly response evidence will wishes have nothing with could choose lie silent about true beliefs could more choose believe the god christianity than could decide that the ordinary sky looks red still should clear that not equating what went through with what gays through however mistake assume that everyone who goes through painful experiences are broken them happily some are made stronger once get past must say that wasn hurt experiences church any more than some friends who didn become atheists was just hurt differently not sure understand this sentence could you explain not without going details and violating the confidences some childhood friends suffice say that religion does not guarantee that person will happy and strong emotionally and repressive upbringing can leave its scars even especially those who don get free doubt that any sane and sincere person doubts that and feel need defend the way much happier and stronger being out the closet the end has been someone eloquently put private email experience liberation rather than disillusion bill mayne
soc.religion.christian	homosexual issues christianity mls panix com michael siemon writes may athos rutgers edu whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu bryan whitsell writes any one who thinks that homosexuality and christianity are compatible should check out romans corinthians timothy jude peter gen lev name few the verses that pertain homosexuality homosexual christians have indeed checked out these verses some them are used against only through incredibly perverse interpretations others simply not address the issues can see that some the above verses not clearly address the issues however couple them seem though they not require incredibly perverse interpretations order seen condemning homosexuality not deceived neither fornicators nor idolators nor adulterers nor effeminate nor homosexuals nor thieves nor the covetous nor drunkards nor revilers nor swindlers shall inherit the kingdom god and such were some you cor would someone care comment the fact that the above seems say fornicators will not inherit the kingdom god how does this apply homosexuals understand fornication sex outside marriage this accurate definition there any such thing same sex marriage the bible understanding has always been that the new testament blesses sexual intercourse only between husband and his wife however willing listen scriptural evidence the contrary you shall not lie with male one lies with female abomination also you shall not have intercourse with any animal defiled with nor shall any woman stand before animal mate with perversion lev notice that the verse forbidding bestiality immediately follows the verse prohibiting what appears homosexual intercourse know new testament passages that clearly condemn even mention intercourse with animals those who argue for the legitimacy homosexual intercourse believe that the bible condemns bestiality perversion and why that what verses would you cite prove that bestiality was perverted and sinful could the verses you cite refuted interpreting them differently can one christian zoophile the way myself subject sexual desires that did not choose have and that many people would regard perverted and sinful please understand that not asking these questions out antipathy towards fellow people alternative orientations believe however that one should read the bible with attitude what the bible trying say and not what want the bible say choose not give perverted sexual desires because believe the bible tries tell whether like not that such things are sin frustrating times and have had days where really got down but don blame god for this blame the sin itself mark there some ambiguity about the meaning the words the passage you quote both liberal and conservative sources seem agree that homosexual not the general term for homosexuals but likely have meaning like homosexual prostitute that doesn meant that think all the biblical evidence v